Top 25 talk

[John Gleich]

RMC has history, an undefeated record, and a decent schedule thus far.  I think they deserve the votes at this point.

Pardon my ignorance... but what history does RMC have that, say, Point, Whitewater, and Wash U don't have?  Each have two national championships.  Wash U's are obvious... Point's are since RMC's great year in 2002-3, and they've got another season (2006-7) atop the polls for much of the year.  And even in RMC's great year, Wash U was ranked ahead of them for the majority of the year.

I'm not sure where history really matters here.

What they do have is an undefeated record against a pretty good schedule.  But (and these numbers aren't updated since last week), their RPI isn't as high as Point, Whitewater, Wash U, or St. Thomas.  The OWP isn't as high for RMC as the other 4 either.

But I digress...  I think their undefeated record and recent results may get them some votes. 

The ODAC should be pretty interesting this year.  Between RM-C, Va Wesleyan, and Guilford, I think the conference looks to be pretty up for grabs.  Va Wesleyan is back 1 game... and they have to play Guilford again and RM-C twice more.  RM-C and Guilford only play each other once this year, which may be beneficial for them in terms of a Pool C, or multiple Pool C bids.  But Eastern Mennonite might factor in too... they've already beaten Va Wesleyan and have 1 game left against UVW, RM-C, and Guilford.

In other words... the ODAC seems pretty tough this year and it doesn't seem likely that, unless somebody can top the other good teams, that they'll stay atop the rankings.

I do think that RM-C will get some votes.  I think Wash U will get some, and Point will get some.  Whitewater might get some.  I don't necessarily see UST getting some because of the way that they lost this week.

[Hugenerd]

Darryl, this isnt your fault, but the womens score or something was reported for the Williams game today.  The correct score is up now, Williams destroyed Southern Maine.

How They Fared

Two games still in progress -- I will try to fill those in later tonight in edits.  Complete.

Top 25

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#1	625	Washington U.	9-1	LOST to (n) Transylvania, 69-73; def. Kalamazoo, 70-44
#2	597	St. Thomas	8-1	LOST at #5 UW-Stevens Point, 56-78; def. Macalester, 76-52
#3	574	UW-Whitewater	12-1	LOST at Whitworth, 84-94
#4	537	Randolph-Macon	10-0	def. Massachusetts College, 82-52; def. #10 Williams, 79-74
#5	527	UW-Stevens Point	11-1	def. #2 St. Thomas, 78-56; def. Viterbo, 75-57
#6	491	Guilford	10-1	def. Ohio Wesleyan, 79-72; def. Marietta, 82-60
#7	445	Middlebury	9-0	def. RPI, 63-52; def. Hamilton, 62-47
#8	408	Wheaton (Ill.)	8-3	LOST to (n) Hamline, 68-69; def. Monmouth, 84-53; def. Pomona-Pitzer, 102-100 4OT
#9	356	John Carroll	7-4	LOST to Medaille, 91-92; LOST at Bethany, 63-85
#10	333	Williams	9-2	def. Elmira, 85-64; LOST at #4 Randolph-Macon, 74-79; LOST to Southern Maine, 83-89
#11	303	Amherst	7-1	def. Stevenson, 69-56
#12	296	St. Norbert	8-1	LOST to Northwestern (Minn.), 70-72; def. T#29 Chicago, 71-60
#13	292	Brandeis	7-1	IDLE
#14	276	Wilmington	10-2	LOST to Thomas More, 90-92
#15	249	Mississippi College	9-0	IDLE
#16	242	Texas-Dallas	7-3	LOST at UT-Arlington, 64-72
#17	238	Franklin and Marshall	8-2	def. Susquehanna, 87-80; def. Manhattanville, 63-57
#18	208	Virginia Wesleyan	10-1	def. Bridgewater (Va.), 77-73
#19	183	Chapman	11-2	LOST at Hawai'i Pacific, 58-70; def. BYU-Hawaii, 76-70 OT
#20	160	Augustana	7-4	LOST at Buena Vista, 66-76
#21	144	MIT	11-1	IDLE
#22	128	Mass-Dartmouth	6-4	LOST to (n) Ramapo, 90-92; LOST to (n) Wesley, 72-91
#23	91	Carthage	8-3	LOST to (n) Wilkes, 61-72; def. King's, 69-46
#24	81	Anderson	11-1	def. Oberlin, 84-61; def. Howard Payne, 81-67
#25	50	St. Mary's (Md.)	10-2	def. Averett, 69-64; def. Hampden-Sydney, 70-69

Others receiving votes

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#26	36	Wooster	8-4	def. Kalamazoo, 70-41; def. Transylvania, 75-65
#27	33	Richard Stockton	8-3	def. Bridgewater State, 77-68; def. Moravian, 72-71
#28	32	Illinois Wesleyan	9-2	def. Southwestern, 91-75
T#29	26	Chicago	6-5	LOST to (n) Edgewood, 61-67; LOST at #12 St. Norbert, 60-71; LOST to Milwaukee Engineering, 62-64
T#29	26	Worcester Polytech	10-1	def. Fitchburg State, 85-47
#31	24	Elms	6-2	IDLE
#32	21	Western Connecticut	8-1	IDLE
#33	20	Eastern Mennonite	9-1	def. Hampden-Sydney, 88-71
T#34	18	Hope	7-4	def. Madonna, 72-68; def. Davenport, 77-62
T#34	18	UW-La Crosse	11-2	def. Hardin-Simmons, 75-56; def. Mary Hardin-Baylor, 86-78
#36	16	DeSales	7-4	def. Centenary, 101-64; LOST to Alvernia, 68-74
#37	7	York (Pa.)	11-1	def. Rosemont, 67-62; def. Gettysburg, 86-61
#38	5	UW-Platteville	8-4	def. Lewis and Clark, 84-76 OT; LOST to (n) Westminster (Utah), 68-71
T#39	2	Cabrini	7-1	IDLE
T#39	2	Cornell	9-3	LOST at Lakeland, 72-75
T#39	2	Illinois College	7-3	LOST to (n) Goshen, 79-95; def. Bluffton, 65-50
T#39	2	McMurry	7-3	LOST at UTSA, 58-84
#43	1	Rochester	7-1	IDLE

[Wydown Blvd.]

RMC has history, an undefeated record, and a decent schedule thus far.  I think they deserve the votes at this point.

When it comes to the #1 team in the nation, my question to pollsters is always simple.... is this the best squad is the nation and does their record stop me from voting them as such? I'm not sure if one loss will stop voters from answering with "WashU is the best team in the nation."

Now, I understand that for the rest of the votes, the other elements (RPI, OWP, etc etc) play a part in leveling the playing field to see who the team is facing (especially because of the regionally diverse layout of d3) and what the team has accomplished during the season , but that #1 spot seems relatively self explanatory IMHO.

[Mr. Ypsi]

RMC has history, an undefeated record, and a decent schedule thus far.  I think they deserve the votes at this point.

When it comes to the #1 team in the nation, my question to pollsters is always simple.... is this the best squad is the nation and does their record stop me from voting them as such? I'm not sure if one loss will stop voters from answering with "WashU is the best team in the nation."

Now, I understand that for the rest of the votes, the other elements (RPI, OWP, etc etc) play a part in leveling the playing field to see who the team is facing (especially because of the regionally diverse layout of d3) and what the team has accomplished during the season , but that #1 spot seems relatively self explanatory IMHO.

C'mon, man - you lost to a team that was DESTROYED by Carthage, Wilma, Tommy More, and Woo, and you expect no penalty at all?!

It would not surprise me terribly if WashU ends up #1 yet again at the end of the year, but this week - no way!   Third or fourth, at best.

[Ralph Turner]

Let's look at the first 5 teams.

There were great tests for each of them.

RMC and UWSP did what they had to do.  I think that it is fair to move them up at this time of the season.

[Wydown Blvd.]

Let's look at the first 5 teams.

There were great tests for each of them.

RMC and UWSP did what they had to do.  I think that it is fair to move them up at this time of the season.

RMC is the only undefeated team and will definitely collect some confident #1 votes, but Im thinking WashU wont lose all of theirs after being unanimous #1 for every week so far. How did UWSP do "what they had to do" any different then WashU (therefore making it fair to move them up)? Fair will be higher than St. Thomas, and St. Thomas will certainly drop in the next poll.

Nevertheless, its going to be an interesting poll to see how those top 5 fall because of the voting behind a poll (instead of a ranking).

(as an aside I'm not a big fan of the quality of losses theory, but thats a personal opinion. For example, Wheaton put up a better fight than Augie vs Wustl, but honestly thats not telling me too much about the difference between the two teams.)

C'mon, man

btw its c'mon woman   

[Mr. Ypsi]

C'mon, man

btw its c'mon woman   

Oops, sorry about that.

My defense is that I have a teenager, to whom 'man' and 'dude' are gender-neutral terms!  I might accept 'dude', but 'man' IS kinda out there.

[Hugenerd]

RMC has history, an undefeated record, and a decent schedule thus far.  I think they deserve the votes at this point.

Pardon my ignorance... but what history does RMC have that, say, Point, Whitewater, and Wash U don't have?  Each have two national championships.  Wash U's are obvious... Point's are since RMC's great year in 2002-3, and they've got another season (2006-7) atop the polls for much of the year.  And even in RMC's great year, Wash U was ranked ahead of them for the majority of the year.

I'm not sure where history really matters here.

What they do have is an undefeated record against a pretty good schedule.  But (and these numbers aren't updated since last week), their RPI isn't as high as Point, Whitewater, Wash U, or St. Thomas.  The OWP isn't as high for RMC as the other 4 either.

But I digress...  I think their undefeated record and recent results may get them some votes. 

The ODAC should be pretty interesting this year.  Between RM-C, Va Wesleyan, and Guilford, I think the conference looks to be pretty up for grabs.  Va Wesleyan is back 1 game... and they have to play Guilford again and RM-C twice more.  RM-C and Guilford only play each other once this year, which may be beneficial for them in terms of a Pool C, or multiple Pool C bids.  But Eastern Mennonite might factor in too... they've already beaten Va Wesleyan and have 1 game left against UVW, RM-C, and Guilford.

In other words... the ODAC seems pretty tough this year and it doesn't seem likely that, unless somebody can top the other good teams, that they'll stay atop the rankings.

I do think that RM-C will get some votes.  I think Wash U will get some, and Point will get some.  Whitewater might get some.  I don't necessarily see UST getting some because of the way that they lost this week.

Let's not forget Eastern Mennonite, who is currently atop the ODAC standings at 3-0, including a win at VWU.

[Ralph Turner]

...
btw its c'mon woman   

I shall remember that I am in the presence of a lady. 

[Mr. Ypsi]

...
btw its c'mon woman   

I shall remember that I am in the presence of a lady. 

There you go, stepping into a potential minefield!

My wife of 32 years retained her birth-name (didn't faze me in the least).  Ironically, HER parents (whom she was seeking to honor) thereafter addressed her as Mrs. Bonney, while MY parents addressed her as Ms. Bare- though only formally on letters, of course (anyone here still remember letters?)

In the 70s and 80s, 'Lady' could be construed as an insult.  Hopefully we have moved beyond that, but who knows? 

[Pat Coleman]

The question to me is always a very simple one. The answer may not always be, however.

Question: Who is the best team in the country?

That's where my No. 1 vote goes. It doesn't necessarily have a bearing on who was No. 1 last week or who has the best record. Can the best team in the country lose a game? Absolutely. There haven't been very many unbeaten teams in Division III men's basketball, to be sure.

[Darryl Nester]

Darryl, this isnt your fault, but the womens score or something was reported for the Williams game today.  The correct score is up now, Williams destroyed Southern Maine.

Thanks, hugenerd.  I fixed it in the original posting, too.  (The score that was posted was for the Colby-Sawyer/Worcester State game, which was the earlier game in the Purple & Gold Invitational.)

And here I thought that for the very first time, all scores had been posted correctly....

[Titan Q]

The question to me is always a very simple one. The answer may not always be, however.

Question: Who is the best team in the country?

That's where my No. 1 vote goes. It doesn't necessarily have a bearing on who was No. 1 last week or who has the best record. Can the best team in the country lose a game? Absolutely. There haven't been very many unbeaten teams in Division III men's basketball, to be sure.

I agree.  For me, it's not about automatically assessing a "penalty" for a loss - it's about trying to determine who the best team is.  Now, most times a loss becomes an important part of the "body of work" that leads me to moving a team down...just as a certain win might lead me to moving a team up.

As the season goes on, I tend to look past a team's best performance, as well as its worst.  Almost every season, great teams lose games they shouldn't on paper...and not-so-great teams pull off huge upsets.  I'm not automatically going to move Wash U down, just as I am not going to automatically move Transylvania into my Top 25 based on one result.

This is a tough #1 vote.  I have not had time to look at it yet in detail, but staying with Wash U is definitely a possibility.

[ScotsFan]

Not that I have a vote, but I would have a hard time keeping WashU #1 after their loss to Transy.  Especially considering that UWSP drilled a VERY good UST squad and R-MC had a solid win over previously 10th ranked Williams. 

I wouldn't say that you are punishing WashU for their loss as much as rewarding Macon and Point for their results.  And with losses by #2 and #3, I would have a hard time not sliding both Macon and Point ahead of WashU at this point.

This is where I would have a difficult decision.  Who would I vote #1 between Point and Macon.  At this moment, I would have to favor Point because of how they handeld St. Thomas.  I saw UST destroy Wooster and I thought at the time that the Tommies might be the best team in the country.  And to see Point come out and lay the wood to UST, leads me to give my nod to UWSP for now with Macon a very close second and WashU slipping to 3rd. 

[ScotsFan]

Since the question has been left hanging on the OAC board (so far this season, the board has little action), I'll pose it here: what's with JCU?!  Just a few days ago (2-9) Denison took Bethany to 2 OTs, yet JCU falls by 22!   Have they had a rash of injuries, or were they just terribly over-rated?

In today's contest against Bethany John Carroll used an 11 man rotation that is basically the same one they have used all year. 10 of these players average double digits in minutes played. They did have 1 player who didn't play today who normally comes off the bench and averages 8.7 ppg and 4.7 rpg. The biggest reason for today's loss was 3 for 23 from 3 point land and getting out rebounded 52-34. No matter who you are you're probably going to get pounded with those stats. 

I'm not a close follower of JCU, but I try to keep up with the other contenders from around the GL Region and I have to say that JCU is really a hard one to figure out.  For as well as they performed last year with their top 11 scoreres returning, I felt they would only be better this year.  But, I have to say, I think magicman nailed a big reason why this team is struggling and that is that they really have no inside presence.  They have been relying on forcing turnovers and playing at an up-tempo level of play and while they are still forcing over 20 turnovers/game, they have really been struggling to find an inside game.  They are a team that appears to live and die by the three-ball.  When it's falling for them, they are tough to beat.  But when it isn't, they will struggle.

Another red flag surrounding the Blue Streaks is their ft shooting.  They missed 14 ft's (31-45) in their loss to Bethany!  You get to the line 45 times, you'd better be making more than 31 ft's!  And as a team they are shooting just 61% for the season!    That is just horrible for a guard oriented team like JCU!

JCU appears to be on the precipice for their season.  They can either rally and finish the season like they finished last season by rolling through the OAC or they can fold up their tents and pack it in.  Right now, I have no idea whether JCU will be able to right the ship and recover from this lull that they're in.