Top 25 talk

[middhoops]

Love this stream.  Lots to be learned here. 
Titan Q, nescac1, Greek Tragedy and Ryan all chipping in preseason?  Oh, yeah.

[Titan Q]

I'm thinking a lot about #1 -- torn between UW-Oshkosh and North Central. 

The great thing -- they play November 12!

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I'm thinking a lot about #1 -- torn between UW-Oshkosh and North Central. 

The great thing -- they play November 12!

If the defending champs are in the ballpark of #1, I always let the trophy break the title.  I don't believe in automatically giving it to them, but I don't see much reason to ever vote the defending champs #2.  That's just me, but I will judge you.

[thebear]

Agreed, #1 is #1 until they aren't  Potsdam grad, in 1984-85 they lost by a point in the Championship game, next year they were 32-0, then won their first 28 in the next year [and got sent on the road in the Elite 8] #1 should be #1 and host until someone beats them at home.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Agreed, #1 is #1 until they aren't  Potsdam grad, in 1984-85 they lost by a point in the Championship game, next year they were 32-0, then won their first 28 in the next year [and got sent on the road in the Elite 8] #1 should be #1 and host until someone beats them at home.

I don't agree #1 is always #1.  I think that's a terrible way to vote, because guys graduate and the team is different, but I do think winning should mean something if a returning squad is in contention for the top spot.  If UWO had graduated six seniors or something like that, it wouldn't be appropriate to vote them #1.

[Gregory Sager]

Agreed, #1 is #1 until they aren't  Potsdam grad, in 1984-85 they lost by a point in the Championship game, next year they were 32-0, then won their first 28 in the next year [and got sent on the road in the Elite 8] #1 should be #1 and host until someone beats them at home.

I don't agree #1 is always #1.  I think that's a terrible way to vote, because guys graduate and the team is different, but I do think winning should mean something if a returning squad is in contention for the top spot.  If UWO had graduated six seniors or something like that, it wouldn't be appropriate to vote them #1.

In this case, though, thebear is referring to a situation much like the current one. The 1985-86 Potsdam State team brought back six of the top eight scorers from the Bears team that had lost to North Park by one in the previous season's national championship game. And heading into the 1986-87 season the Bears brought back a 15.2 ppg, 7.5 rpg player and an 11.4 ppg, 7.1 rpg player from that 1985-86 team that had gone 32-0. I remember how shocked we were at North Park when we learned that the previously 28-0 Bears had lost their Elite Eight game to Clark (in front of 3,200 people, I might add) in March '87, because we were all certain that we were going to see North Park and Potsdam State square off in the national championship game for the third time in nine years.

[Titan Q]

I'm thinking a lot about #1 -- torn between UW-Oshkosh and North Central. 

The great thing -- they play November 12!

If the defending champs are in the ballpark of #1, I always let the trophy break the title.  I don't believe in automatically giving it to them, but I don't see much reason to ever vote the defending champs #2.  That's just me, but I will judge you.

I guess I feel like PG Ben Boots (WIAC POY/1st Team All-American/15.7 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 4.2 apg) made UWO tick last year...and Brett Wittchow (1st Team All-WIAC/14.0 påg, 4.7 rpg) was a close second.  It seemed to me like everything the Titans did was initiated by Boots.  And both Boots and Wittchow were very key perimeter scorers for the team last year.

I think Oshkosh is going to be awesome - I'm sure they have talented guys ready to step it - but I think they lost the heart & soul of their 2018-19 team.  We can't look at this like Oshkosh has everyone back -- they lost a ton.

For that reason, I am looking at NCC -- a team that returns pretty much every key piece from the CCIW's Pool A team.  They don't have to figure anything out really as the season opens - they just keep building on last season.

I still might go UWO #1, but for me it is really close.  I am leaning a bit towards NCC.

[Titan Q]

Agreed, #1 is #1 until they aren't  Potsdam grad, in 1984-85 they lost by a point in the Championship game, next year they were 32-0, then won their first 28 in the next year [and got sent on the road in the Elite 8] #1 should be #1 and host until someone beats them at home.

But again, Oshkosh lost two 1st Team All-WIAC players...including the WIAC Player of the Year.  And Boots, also a 1st Team American, was their PG.  Is there a bigger loss to a great team than an All-American PG?

It's not like the whole team is back. 

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Agreed, #1 is #1 until they aren't  Potsdam grad, in 1984-85 they lost by a point in the Championship game, next year they were 32-0, then won their first 28 in the next year [and got sent on the road in the Elite 8] #1 should be #1 and host until someone beats them at home.

But again, Oshkosh lost two 1st Team All-WIAC players...including the WIAC Player of the Year.  And Boots was their PG.  Is there a bigger loss to a great team than an All-American PG?

It's not like the whole team is back.

Yeah, it's a solid argument.  Vlotho will slot right in and I hadn't heard many freshman talked about like Eric Peterson; I tend to believe those who think he'll move into the starting lineup without missing a beat.  Of course, I expect the big man to only keep getting better.
Really, to me, their biggest question is depth.  Depth would be the argument to put Swarthmore #1, which, who knows, may be the most popular choice when all is said and done.

This is always a fun time of year.

[Titan Q]

This is always a fun time of year.

Yes!

[Titan Q]

Wonder if these discussions were happening within the Street & Smith's poll voting panel?

[Gregory Sager]

What Street & Smith voting panel?

[magicman]

You hit the bulls eye with that one Greg! 

[Titan Q]

With the official ballot due Monday at at 5pm ET on Monday, here is where I stand...

1. North Central (CCIW/Central)
2. UW-Oshkosh (WIAC/Central)
3. Swarthmore (Centennial/Mid Atlantic)
4. Amherst (NESCAC/Northeast)
5. Emory (UAA/South)
6. Wash U (UAA/Central)
7. Nebraska Wesleyan (ARC/West)
8. Wittenberg (NCAC/Great Lakes)
9. Middlebury (NESCAC/Northeast)
10. Christopher Newport (CAC/Mid Atlantic)
11. St. John's (MIAC/West)
12. Texas-Dallas (ASC/South)
13. Augustana (CCIW/Central)
14. Nichols (CCC/Northeast)
15. St. Thomas (MIAC/West)
16. Wooster (NCAC/Great Lakes)
17. Whitman (NWC/West)
18. Wabash (NCAC/Great Lakes)
19. Eastern Connecticut St (LEC/Northeast)
20. Marietta (OAC/Great Lakes)
21. Augsburg (MIAC/West)
22. Scranton (Landmark/Mid Atlantic)
23. Guilford (ODAC/South)
24. WPI (NEWMAC/Northeast)
25. UW-Platteville (WIAC/Central)
[26. SUNY Oneonta (SUNYAC/East]

Regions
Central = 5
Northeast = 5
West = 5
Great Lakes = 4
Mid Atlantic = 3
South = 3
East = 0
Atlantic = 0

Conferences
MIAC = 3
NCAC = 3
CCIW = 2
NESCAC = 2
UAA = 2
WIAC = 2
ARC = 1
ASC = 1
Centennial = 1
CAC = 1
CCC = 1
Landmark = 1
LEC = 1
NEWMAC = 1
NWC = 1
OAC = 1
ODAC = 1

[Titan Q]

I hit "submit" on my preseason ballot today. 

* From where I was yesterday, I went with SUNY Oneonta at #25 over UW-Platteville.  I was trying to force a 2nd WIAC team in, but at this point in the preseason I don't think it's clear enough who the #2 and #3 WIAC teams are...and if they have a preseason Top 25 resume.  I'll be looking to get another WIAC team or two in once we have results to evaluate.

* I looked very closely at Simpson, as I think the ARC has become a really strong league.  But I spoke with an ARC coach that feels Simpson is more "watch list" than Top 25 heading in.  And the fact Simpson went 0-5 vs Nebraska Wesleyan and Loras last year was probably the deciding factor for me.  I'll be closely watching the Storm when the season starts.  Loras too.

* Before finalizing I also looked at the ODAC one final time.  I think if Randolph-Macon was picked 2nd in the preseason poll I would have slid them in #25.  But Virginia Wesleyan is the #2 pick...and they were just 13-13 last year.  So it sort of just made me think "watch list" with whoever ODAC #2 is.

* I've explained my thinking on not having UW-Oshkosh #1.  But again, it's that they lost their PG who was the WIAC POY and 1st Team All-American. Meanwhile, North Central returns just about everyone from a team that earned the CCIW's Pool A bid last year -- in the CCIW tourney, the Cards beat #6 Wheaton and #4 Augustana (at Augie).  They head into 2019-20 as the very clear favorite in one of the top two leagues in Division III, and with all the pieces necessary to have a special season.  And in a wonderful twist of fate, on November 12 we get the following -- UW-Oshkosh at North Central.

Thank you for all of the help on this in the last week+.  I feel good about my preseason ballot -- it will be nice to now see some games.


Bob Quillman's 2019-20 D3hoops.com Preseason Top 25 Ballot
1. North Central (CCIW/Central)
2. UW-Oshkosh (WIAC/Central)
3. Swarthmore (Centennial/Mid Atlantic)
4. Amherst (NESCAC/Northeast)
5. Emory (UAA/South)
6. Wash U (UAA/Central)
7. Nebraska Wesleyan (ARC/West)
8. Wittenberg (NCAC/Great Lakes)
9. Middlebury (NESCAC/Northeast)
10. Christopher Newport (CAC/Mid Atlantic)
11. St. John's (MIAC/West)
12. Texas-Dallas (ASC/South)
13. Augustana (CCIW/Central)
14. Nichols (CCC/Northeast)
15. St. Thomas (MIAC/West)
16. Wooster (NCAC/Great Lakes)
17. Whitman (NWC/West)
18. Wabash (NCAC/Great Lakes)
19. Eastern Connecticut St (LEC/Northeast)
20. Marietta (OAC/Great Lakes)
21. Augsburg (MIAC/West)
22. Scranton (Landmark/Mid Atlantic)
23. Guilford (ODAC/South)
24. WPI (NEWMAC/Northeast)
25. SUNY Oneonta (SUNYAC/East]

Regions
Northeast = 5
West = 5
Central = 4
Great Lakes = 4
Mid Atlantic = 3
South = 3
East = 1
Atlantic = 0

Conferences
MIAC = 3
NCAC = 3
CCIW = 2
NESCAC = 2
UAA = 2
ARC = 1
ASC = 1
Centennial = 1
CAC = 1
CCC = 1
Landmark = 1
LEC = 1
NEWMAC = 1
NWC = 1
OAC = 1
ODAC = 1
SUNYAC = 1
WIAC = 1