MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Viking Mike]

Nice to see projected rankings again.  Augie is looking good and has a great opportunity to move up and finish the season strong, starting with Titans on Wednesday.  Wed game at Carver should be a dog fight.  Hoping the young Vikes can slow down IWU and rebound better than they did in Bloomington.  The Carver Center and home crowd should give the Vikings a lift.   0-3 against that other Big 3?  ...... time for payback!!!

[D-3 watcher]

Watched 2 games yesterday, one not so good, other than IWU winning, the other was a great game, with a great crowd. The students from both sides having fun, NCC clearly out numbered, but still vocal and supportive.
IWU has always traveled well, but not really the IWU students, even our home crowds, that honestly have not been what they once were, have not had a whole lot of student support.
While its easier for fans and students from the four Chicago land schools to hit the road and watch a few away games, they still have to travel a little, and I thought it was great to walk into a packed house, both schools well represented, and be treated to a great game. Thanks to both Wheaton and North Central.
And being an IWU fan, a little more thanks to Wheaton. Just being honest.

[Titan Q]

Wash U in a UAA battle in Cleveland...

http://tv.case.edu/athletics/

[kiko]

Thought Kevin Reed had one of his best games ever as a Titan and, of course, great to see Victor Davis lead the team in scoring, I think for the first time this season, in game 19 of the season? Not sure. 

Victor was the leading scorer against UW-Whitewater in game 5.

The Titans have had 6 players lead the team in scoring in a game this season...

Ziemnik: 5 times
Zimmer: 5 times
Sodemann: 3 times
Mayberger: 2 times
Davis: 2 times
Overstreet: 2 times

This is particularly impressive given that each of the abovementioned has led the team on multiple occasions.  It just reinforces how many ways the Titans can adapt and beat you.

[shepherd]

Thought Kevin Reed had one of his best games ever as a Titan and, of course, great to see Victor Davis lead the team in scoring, I think for the first time this season, in game 19 of the season? Not sure. 

Victor was the leading scorer against UW-Whitewater in game 5.

The Titans have had 6 players lead the team in scoring in a game this season...

Ziemnik: 5 times
Zimmer: 5 times
Sodemann: 3 times
Mayberger: 2 times
Davis: 2 times
Overstreet: 2 times

This is particularly impressive given that each of the abovementioned has led the team on multiple occasions.  It just reinforces how many ways the Titans can adapt and beat you.

Also how good Ron Rose and staff are at getting players to buy into his program and playing as a team year after year.  I like watching the Titans play because of the way they play as a team.  There definitely is something special going on there.

[kiko]

I've taken a shot at a Midwest region ranking as of today.  I don't think we'll get actual regional rankings until a week from this Wednesday (2/6).


(in-region winning %/in-region SOS)

My projected regional rankings, Sun 1/27
1.      Transylvania  .824 (14-3)/.560

2.      Ill. Wesleyan  .813 (13-3)/.524

3.      North Central  .824 (14-3)/.515

4.      Wheaton  .765 (13-4)/.531

5.      Washington U  .765 (13-4)/.577

6.      Augustana  .778 (14-4)/.582

7.      Rose-Hulman  .889 (16-2)/.465

8.      Grinnell  .800 (12-3)/.494
-----
9.      St. Norbert  .824 (14-3)/.516


Notes
* My criteria includes 1) in-region winning %, 2) in-region SOS, 3) in-region head-to-head, and 4) in-region common opponents.

* My SOS data is coming from KnightSlappy's incredible regional ranking work on his blog.  These numbers are only through 1/24, so the SOS figures above are close, but not 100% right - http://tomaroonandgold.blogspot.com/p/2010-2011-d3-mens-regional-rankings.html

* I'm assuming Wash U wins @ Case Western Reserve in UAA play today - that win is already factored into Wash U's regional record.

* The following in-region head-to-head results among the teams above were factored into my projection:

   - Transylvania - win @ Rose-Hulman
   - Illinois Wesleyan - wins @ Wheaton, vs Augustana, vs NCC/loss @ Wash U
   - North Central - wins vs Wheaton, vs Augustana/losses @ IWU, @ Wheaton
   - Wheaton - wins @ Augustana, vs NCC, vs Wash U/losses @ NCC, vs IWU
   - Wash U - win vs IWU/loss @ Wheaton
   - Augustana - win @ St. Norbert/losses @NCC, @IWU, vs Wheaton
   - Rose-Hulman - no wins/loss @ Transylvania
   - Grinnell - win @ St. Norbert
   - St. Norbert - no wins/loss vs Augustana, vs Grinnell

* Key common opponent games include: IWU's loss to Franklin/Transylvania's win over Franklin...Wash U's win over IWU/Augustana's loss to IWU...St. Norbert's loss to Augustana...IWU, NCC, Wheaton wins over Augustana.

* Since there are no actual regional rankings yet, I have not factored in in-region results vs teams who will be ranked in other regions.  For example, Transylvania's win over Wooster (Great Lakes) and St. Norbert's win over UW-Whitewater (West).

* My toughest call was what to do with Rose-Hulman.  .889 is the best in-region record on the board, but SOS is lowest and no wins over the other Midwest teams in the mix.

On the published criteria, this makes a lot of sense.  The one factor I don't think you're giving enough weight to in this is politics.  I can't see the committee ranking four teams from one conference among the top six.  We typically see this surface more in football (I'm speaking specifically about the North Region and not others, which I pay less attention to).  In the gridiron RRs, the similarity of records masks a lot of the quality difference between teams in different conferences and pushes down once- and twice-beaten teams.  It surfaces a little bit, but not quite as much, in the published basketball rankings.

To have four CCIW teams in the top six, a fair number of conference reps will have to say "I think my conference's best team would finish no better than fifth in that conference".  That's a tough mental hurdle to get over.

I would not be surprised to see Rose-Hulman a few spots higher, or Wash U above the DuPage favorite sons since they survived against Case today.

[Mugsy]

Article on Wheaton/NCC tilt.

http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20130126/sports/701269755/

[bopol]

To have four CCIW teams in the top six, a fair number of conference reps will have to say "I think my conference's best team would finish no better than fifth in that conference".  That's a tough mental hurdle to get over.

I would not be surprised to see Rose-Hulman a few spots higher, or Wash U above the DuPage favorite sons since they survived against Case today.

What's funny is that I would expect to see 4 UAA teams in the top 6 as well.  It'll just be spread over four different regions.

[kiko]

To have four CCIW teams in the top six, a fair number of conference reps will have to say "I think my conference's best team would finish no better than fifth in that conference".  That's a tough mental hurdle to get over.

I would not be surprised to see Rose-Hulman a few spots higher, or Wash U above the DuPage favorite sons since they survived against Case today.

What's funny is that I would expect to see 4 UAA teams in the top 6 as well.  It'll just be spread over four different regions.

Agreed - on this issue, the UAA benefits from the fact that there is little direct comparison between their teams in the RRs.  Wash U would likely take a hit in the RRs if it had to sit head-to-head against the three other strong UAA teams instead of this year's CCIW elites -- even if, for arguments sake, the elites in the two conferences were of exactly equal strength.

[cciwrabblerouser]

Professor Sager wrote ...

"Wheaton is the most frustrating site to watch a basketball game online of any that I normally watch. The camera is set so low on the gym's south wall that the backs of the heads of fans are constantly obstructing the view. Every time that a person stands up in the vicinity of the camera, you lose a piece of the court. Since the Wheaton student section was standing throughout the entire game, there were huge portions of the east end of the court that were blocked from the picture. Build a platform for your camera, Wheaton!"

I was thinking the exact same thing while watching (errrrrrr, trying to watch...) the Thunda's overtime win vs. the Cardinals last night.  Dang, I got so tired of seeing that one kid's head pop up and block the camera view during some inopportune times.  I think if I saw that guy on the street next week I could identify him just from the shape of his head and the style of his haircut.

It doesn't take much money or any common sense to see that this is a real need.  I truly believe that Wheaton can figure out a solution to the problem ... and the sooner the better.  Otherwise, I might have to settle watching some other CCIW game or, God have mercy, an MIAA or UAA game!     Ugh.

[veterancciwfan]

The atmosphere at King Arena last night was spectacular. This is what top echelon D3 b'ball is all about. There must have been at least 1000 students (and at least 200 of those from NCC) in the crowd of 2850. Teuscher's 3 with 35 seconds left to tie the game was twilight zone time. He just rose in the air and launched it from 25 feet and hit NBN. Amazing! And Kvam did the same thing earlier in the 2nd half.

I need a history update. In the last 20 years, has any CCIW leader after 8 games had a 3 game lead on the 2nd place team? I doubt it. This is a great and usually balanced league, although usually a lot of separation between the top 4 and bottom 4.

One comment about that great 04/05 Mike Bietzel coached Hanover team which came to the Shirk Center and won a 2nd round NCAA tourney game, 81-76 in March 2005 (IWU had a 1st round bye). Yes, IWU does occasionally get its heart broken at home just like IWU has done many times to opponents on their home floors in tournament games. It took Scott Trost 2 months to get over that loss for what he thought was a Final 4 team (Dauksas and A'ovich were juniors and Zach Freeman was a sophomore). I looked at the box score and all Hanover did in the 2nd half was make 17 of 23 FGs (74%) including 6 of 8 3s in what was probably the best half of basketball ever played by any visiting team at Shirk. Hanover also beat IWU at Hanover in Dec. 2004. Beitzel was great coach. I think he retired from coaching.

[CCIWchamps]

Something posted recently got me thinking- and I can probably look this up, but figure someone here knows it already- how long have the 8 schools been in the CCIW that are currently in it?  And is it rare that a school joins a conference or switches?  Looking at the DI programs, where moving and changing has happened more frequently in the last few years, is there even a chance of that happening on the DIII level?  Or not enough $$ involved?

What made me think is if anyone would want to join CCIW basketball?

[Mr. Ypsi]

Something posted recently got me thinking- and I can probably look this up, but figure someone here knows it already- how long have the 8 schools been in the CCIW that are currently in it?  And is it rare that a school joins a conference or switches?  Looking at the DI programs, where moving and changing has happened more frequently in the last few years, is there even a chance of that happening on the DIII level?  Or not enough $$ involved?

What made me think is if anyone would want to join CCIW basketball?

Conference changes are not at all rare in d3, but the CCIW has been unusually stable.  All current CCIW members (except NPU) were founding members in 1947 (I don't think North Park was yet a 4-year school back then), plus Illinois College and Lake Forest.  Illinois College left in 1953; Lake Forest in 1963.  Carroll joined in 1956; left in 1992.  In all three cases it is generally believed that they simply didn't feel they could compete at the level that the CCIW was evolving into.  NPU (then NPC) joined in 1963.

Three current schools have not been continuous members.  Wheaton was out for most of the 1960s ('invited' to leave for competing just a little bit TOO well!).  Carthage was out from 1954-62 (was that the move from Carthage to Kenosha?) and Elmhurst was out from 1961-68 (I don't know why).  [BTW, all dates are from the historical stats on men's basketball from the CCIW.org site; may not be exact for all sports.]

So other than Carroll leaving 20+ years ago, it has been the eight of us for 40+ years.  I don't foresee any changes up or down for the foreseeable future.

[kiko]

Something posted recently got me thinking- and I can probably look this up, but figure someone here knows it already- how long have the 8 schools been in the CCIW that are currently in it?  And is it rare that a school joins a conference or switches?  Looking at the DI programs, where moving and changing has happened more frequently in the last few years, is there even a chance of that happening on the DIII level?  Or not enough $$ involved?

What made me think is if anyone would want to join CCIW basketball?

Conference changes are not at all rare in d3, but the CCIW has been unusually stable.  All current CCIW members (except NPU) were founding members in 1947 (I don't think North Park was yet a 4-year school back then), plus Illinois College and Lake Forest.  Illinois College left in 1953; Lake Forest in 1963.  Carroll joined in 1956; left in 1992.  In all three cases it is generally believed that they simply didn't feel they could compete at the level that the CCIW was evolving into.  NPU (then NPC) joined in 1963.

Three current schools have not been continuous members.  Wheaton was out for most of the 1960s ('invited' to leave for competing just a little bit TOO well!).  Carthage was out from 1954-62 (was that the move from Carthage to Kenosha?) and Elmhurst was out from 1961-68 (I don't know why).  [BTW, all dates are from the historical stats on men's basketball from the CCIW.org site; may not be exact for all sports.]

So other than Carroll leaving 20+ years ago, it has been the eight of us for 40+ years.  I don't foresee any changes up or down for the foreseeable future.

There are a bunch of reasons the conference has remained stable beyond what Ypsi articulated, with one of the primary factors being simply that, as I understand it, the eight conference members feel that eight is a really good number that works well from a scheduling standpoint.

There aren't dollars at stake the way there would be in D1, so adding far-flung membership (with far-flung being defined as: Indiana or Iowa) would probably just add expenses to the bottom line.

There have been a moderate number of conference shifts in other parts of the D3 landscape, but someone more steeped in those schools and their programs than I would be better versed articulate the factors that drove the shifts.

[Titan Q]

Something posted recently got me thinking- and I can probably look this up, but figure someone here knows it already- how long have the 8 schools been in the CCIW that are currently in it?  And is it rare that a school joins a conference or switches?  Looking at the DI programs, where moving and changing has happened more frequently in the last few years, is there even a chance of that happening on the DIII level?  Or not enough $$ involved?

What made me think is if anyone would want to join CCIW basketball?

Conference changes are not at all rare in d3, but the CCIW has been unusually stable.  All current CCIW members (except NPU) were founding members in 1947 (I don't think North Park was yet a 4-year school back then), plus Illinois College and Lake Forest.  Illinois College left in 1953; Lake Forest in 1963.  Carroll joined in 1956; left in 1992.  In all three cases it is generally believed that they simply didn't feel they could compete at the level that the CCIW was evolving into.  NPU (then NPC) joined in 1963.

Three current schools have not been continuous members.  Wheaton was out for most of the 1960s ('invited' to leave for competing just a little bit TOO well!).  Carthage was out from 1954-62 (was that the move from Carthage to Kenosha?) and Elmhurst was out from 1961-68 (I don't know why).  [BTW, all dates are from the historical stats on men's basketball from the CCIW.org site; may not be exact for all sports.]

So other than Carroll leaving 20+ years ago, it has been the eight of us for 40+ years.  I don't foresee any changes up or down for the foreseeable future.

There are a bunch of reasons the conference has remained stable beyond what Ypsi articulated, with one of the primary factors being simply that, as I understand it, the eight conference members feel that eight is a really good number that works well from a scheduling standpoint.

There aren't dollars at stake the way there would be in D1, so adding far-flung membership (with far-flung being defined as: Indiana or Iowa) would probably just add expenses to the bottom line.

There have been a moderate number of conference shifts in other parts of the D3 landscape, but someone more steeped in those schools and their programs than I would be better versed articulate the factors that drove the shifts.

I would personally be hugely supportive of the CCIW adding Nebraska Wesleyan...much like the Big Ten added the Cornhuskers.