Here's another recurring topic that comes up a lot. Instead of repeating ourselves all over the place, I think it's a good idea to ground this discussion here on Post Patterns. Next time someone suggests a venue, we say here are the reasons people like Salem ... now what'chu and your city got?
Cut-and-pasted from the Daily Dose last week:
QuotePurple Crush Says:
The 20th of November, 2006 at 4:29 pm
Food for thought. Why not play the Stagg Bowl in a warmer climate, larger city, and central part of the country. I think the turnout would be much better. If played in a big city football lovers would show up just to watch the game even if they had no ties to the program.
Quotesabretooth tiger Says:
The 20th of November, 2006 at 4:39 pm
I nominate the Rose Bowl to host the Stagg Bowl. A great warm-up for the Grandaddy of them all, and no so big as to garner a fight from the neighbors. I'd be happy to help in the process!
Live from Pasadena, CA where it is 85 degrees and sunny.
sabretooth
Quotesabretooth tiger Says:
The 20th of November, 2006 at 4:40 pm
Make that "not so big."
QuoteHScoach Says:
The 20th of November, 2006 at 4:41 pm
Salem, VA is the perfect host. Most of D3 is located east of the Mississippi and located in cold weather states. While a December game in Florida might be nice, I'm not sure how many fans it would draw from the participating schools when 90+% of the D3 towns would be too far away to drive?
QuoteBucksFan Says:
The 20th of November, 2006 at 4:48 pm
^^^^^^What he said!
QuoteD3Keith Says:
The 20th of November, 2006 at 7:58 pm
PurpleCrush,
Not to dis, but you're harping on two old-news points here.
(skips 1st not-relevant-here point):
2. "Host the Stagg Bowl in a warmer climate."
Been done. It was in Bradenton, Fla. for years and then Phenix City, Ala.
Problem with that is it's not near any D3 schools. No fan base nearby. And unless you can drive or the school organizes a charter, flying to the Stagg Bowl is a tough thing to do on less than a week's notice.
Salem is a willing host that does a great job with the game for the size it is. I don't think, outside of moving it to Collegeville or Alliance, you'd really guarantee a bigger crowd anywhere else.
I also think you're wrong on the big city point. It seems to me small places where there's nothing else in town garner more interest for D3. CUA gets lost in D.C., Hopkins does in Baltimore. I don't remember huge crowds at Occidental (L.A.) or even this weekend in Pittsburgh (Carnegie Mellon). There's lots to do, but the general populous is interested in the big pro or college teams.
D3 tends to draw people with ties to the school, except in small towns where the team is also a source of local pride and/or the thing to do in town.
From my experience, anyway ...
QuoteD3Keith Says:
The 20th of November, 2006 at 8:03 pm
As far as Salem,
I've never heard anyone say it's broken, so why fix it?
And as far as logical D3 places to move it, like Ohio, New York, N.J., Illinois, Minnesota or Wisconsin ... well, none of those sound like much warmer climates than Salem, Va., even though Salem isn't balmy and 70 degrees in December.
But few are the teams coming to the Stagg Bowl from warm climates, so this is the best replication of a regular game, except for the teams not used to grass.
The thing is, there's a lot of behind-the-scenes work that goes into putting the game on, and Salem has the size, the proper venue and experience, and it does get treated like the big game in town when it's there.
I think they contract the game on 2-year cycles, but I've never even heard rumblings of another place putting in for the Stagg Bowl.
I have recently heard one rumbling of another division possibly wanting to bring its championship to Salem. I was not sworn to secrecy, but that's all I know. Except for the Division, which you out there have a 50-50 shot at guessing anyway.
Good thing there's no D3 competition or I'd be a fool for posting this. Not that it's my "scoop" anyway.
More from last week's Dose:
QuoteD3Keith Says:
The 20th of November, 2006 at 8:09 pm
Sorry for the triple post on this:
The history of the game and its sites are here:
http://www.d3football.com/playoffs/
Not sure how believable the attendance numbers that end in 00 are, but I don't think there are many discernable statistics trends. Looks like the Stagg Bowl has always generated a crowd of less than 10,000, and its somewhat tied to how close the teams are to the venue. (Salem is a day-trip from MUC, and it would be wise to keep it that way).
Also interesting to note the two games in Ohio, even though they were during the Augie years, didn't draw all that well.
FWIW.
Quoterms1217 Says:
The 21st of November, 2006 at 2:20 am
(edited here)
Keith:
You are right, Salem is the perfect place for the championship game. We had a great time at the UHMB - Linfield game. It's not so small and not to big and the folks there do put on a very good show.
If it ain't broke why fix it?
QuoteCam08 Says:
The 21st of November, 2006 at 7:08 am
ISN'T THERE A DOME SOMEWHERE IN D3 COUNTRY THAT COULD HOST STAG BOWL.
QuoteSeanGOP Says:
The 21st of November, 2006 at 9:51 am
Keith,
Awesome! Thanks.
I tend to agree with the smaller city to host the Stagg Bowl. We don't want to get lost in all the action of a big city. We want to be THE game in town. The players deserve the attention, and quite frankly, so do the fans.
All I know is that it is a long 45 (or so) weeks after the Stagg Bowl until the next season kicks off.
Quotebeltoncru Says:
The 21st of November, 2006 at 10:58 am
D3Keith,
Are there any thoughts about having the Semi-Finals games at the Stagg Bowl?
Seems like a neutral site would be fair to match-up the final 4 teams. With all the money the NCAA saves on matching up the ASC teams in the first round (complaint) - they should be able to afford the possilby 2 extra flights.
Quotetje Says:
The 21st of November, 2006 at 10:59 am
Cam08: I have been to two Stagg Bowls in 2000 and 2003. Everything about the hosting was done well. There is little to complain about with Salem except the weather. It was terrible both times I went. There are domes which could be used and where the game could still be the center of attraction. However, from a previous post of mine, suggestions along these lines are not well accepted here. I think people like the way things run at Salem and it is more convenient that other places which may have a dome.
QuoteD3Keith Says:
The 23rd of November, 2006 at 12:52 am
To the questions asked of me earlier:
I think the Stagg Bowl would play fine in another city similar to the size of Salem that's willing to give it the attention and put in the work it needs to make it run smoothly.
I agree with Cam08 about domes though. I like the purity of the Stagg Bowl, being outdoors and on grass.
I don't mean to crush anyone suggesting a change of venue, I just think it can be a risky proposition to switch to someone that doesn't know what they're doing necessarily, when Salem hosts championships for football, basketball, baseball, volleyball ... they know how to get it done.
I don't have any problem with how the games go in Salem now, so I'm not a big advocate for change. I suppose you could find a more interesting place to host, but the lack of distractions (aside from the planned stuff) is good for the teams.
It plays well in town, it's a good distance from a lot of D3 but not impossible to reach. I think that's big for fans. Pat always says Columbus, Ohio is the geographical center of D3, I don't think he means mathematically, just that Columbus is a decent trip from just about everywhere. May be the home of the D3 empire someday
Some people think the Stagg Bowl should find a home in Ohio. I'm sure as soon as it does, it'll be another bunch of Linfield-UMHB type of games
Quoterepete Says:
The 23rd of November, 2006 at 6:58 pm
I've been to Staggs in Phenix City (once) and Salem (twice) and can't say enough about the folks in Va. Great hosts and they make both teams and their fans feel special even if the rest of the country is watching "Battle of the NFL All-Stars Wives."
There's a dedication to doing it well there, plenty of intangibles, and I think — as keith noted — there's a bit of risk in a move.
Quotekirasdad Says:
The 24th of November, 2006 at 10:24 am
RE: Kieth:
" I like the purity of the Stagg Bowl, being outdoors and on grass. "
Isn't Salem putting down FieldTurf soon?
QuoteMountguy Says:
The 24th of November, 2006 at 2:54 pm
Having been to Salem in 93,97,98 I can say its all first class. The people down there are fantastic. I still remember in 93 it was cold and windy, the folks were very apologetic about the weather. We had to remind them that being from Northeast Ohio we were used to this type of weather. Like the saying goes...If it aint't broke don't mess with it.
Salem would be better if they built something like this ::):
http://www.stadiumsofnfl.com/nfc/UniversityofPhoenixStadium.htm
I went to the Stagg Bowl last year, and I didn't have a problem with the stadium. The weather was cold, but I'm from UWW and we play our two final playoff games in freezing weather, so it wasn't a big deal. The trip was about 20 hours I think, which wasn't horrible. For the facility itself, I liked the feel of it, with the brick walls and the appropriate seating arrangements with the bleachers on opposite sides of each other.
Overall, I think it's a good spot to watch a championship game.
Ain't broke, don't fix it!
Salem is a fabulous location and I wouldn't be surprised if D2 moves its championship game there as well. I believe Salem Stadium is adding artificial turf for 2007 which would make it an easy host for two games in two weeks. A significant amount of work for Carey Harveycutter and his countless staff, but another money maker for the region.
They do a heck of a job year in and year out and I look forward to going back in a few weeks.
Quote from: runyr on December 03, 2006, 04:06:58 AM
Salem would be better if they built something like this ::):
http://www.stadiumsofnfl.com/nfc/UniversityofPhoenixStadium.htm
You think they can do that in the 10,000-seat variety? :)
Quote from: patcummings on December 03, 2006, 02:59:00 PM
Salem is a fabulous location and I wouldn't be surprised if D2 moves its championship game there as well.
I-AA is the one I heard is interested. Makes sense geographically, I guess, the same way it does in D3. A lot of conferences in the East, mid-Atlantic and Midwest and even South that would be a managable drive from Titletown, Va.
Quote from: K-Mack on December 04, 2006, 12:59:24 AM
Quote from: patcummings on December 03, 2006, 02:59:00 PM
Salem is a fabulous location and I wouldn't be surprised if D2 moves its championship game there as well.
I-AA is the one I heard is interested. Makes sense geographically, I guess, the same way it does in D3. A lot of conferences in the East, mid-Atlantic and Midwest and even South that would be a managable drive from Titletown, Va.
I would question if it is big enough to host the Division 1 subbracket Final. Don't know totals every year but I think there were like 22,000 + in Chattanooga when JMU won it's Nat'l Championship.
Also how would the ESPN deal workout? Traditionally the D1-BCS has a Friday night final with D2 and D3 both on Saturday. Unless they move one to the following weekend, I wonder how they could pull that off in Salem?
I don't know the details at all, and I don't think anything public has been said or finalized, I think they were just exploratory.
But yeah, the math doesn't work out at 22,000 > 9,000 now does it?
Is there a Roanoke Bowl I don't know about? Or maybe one of Va. Tech's practice fields?
Since 1997 the DIAA championship game has been held at Chattanooga in a stadium whose capacity is 20,000. During that period for those championship games the attendance has ranged from a low of 12,360 to a high of 20,052. These figures are contained in the Official 2006 NCAA Records Book.
Im for putting the game in Miami or Tampa and having the 1-AA (or division formally known as 1-AA), d2 and d3 game at the same site. Id even consider that an annual trip if you through some clinics in down there.
Fact is Im not going to Salem unless Ithacas playing, but I would definitly consider Florida.
Quote from: frank uible on December 04, 2006, 05:07:54 AM
Since 1997 the DIAA championship game has been held at Chattanooga in a stadium whose capacity is 20,000. During that period for those championship games the attendance has ranged from a low of 12,360 to a high of 20,052. These figures are contained in the Official 2006 NCAA Records Book.
Thanks for the followup. I was a little off but the numbers still don't work for Salem. Most if not all D1-sub schools have bigger stadiums than Salem's. If it got moved there it wouldn't stay long just based on capacity.
Quote from: K-Mack on December 04, 2006, 12:57:32 AM
Quote from: runyr on December 03, 2006, 04:06:58 AM
Salem would be better if they built something like this ::):
http://www.stadiumsofnfl.com/nfc/UniversityofPhoenixStadium.htm
You think they can do that in the 10,000-seat variety? :)
I have a University of Phoenix campus just up the road.
Where are they going to put that? Build it over US Hwy 75? (North Central Expressway for you Dallasites) :D
Chattanooga has the DI-AA game locked up in 2007 with an option for 2008. Avg attendance of 15,500 in chattavegas.
Neither Chatt or Salem has a geographic advantage over one another. Teams like Georgia Southern, Delaware, James Madison, and Montana have played in the championship the last few years.
As always gro votes for the AA, II, and III football weekend extravaganza in a 20,000+ seat stadium... in Bradenton florida. One game friday night, double header on saturday, Buccaneers on Sunday... perfect.
I'd kind of like to see a rotation where a site over to the west a ways gets used once in a while. Not way west - southern Ohio (Cincy-ish) or Evansville, Indiana. There's a Div II school in Frankfort KY or Butler in Indy - something like that. Would be a bone to those of us in the Central time zone - Ill, Wisc, Ind, Minn, Texas. Still keeping it far enough south that the weather gets some help.
Sounds like Salem does a nice job - would have to keep up that standard.
I know that format works wonders in lacrosse but I don't think the football fraternity is the same as the lacrosse fraternity. As in, I do not see D-II fans sitting through the D-III title game and vice versa. Lacrosse, on the other hand, has a real "we're all in this together" feel about it and it seems to be one of the few sports where those who follow D-I are knowledgeable about what happens at the higher levels of D-II and D-III.
Covering the D-III men's lax final in Philadelphia last season was an incredible experience. I just don't see it working for football, however.
Quote from: 'gro on December 04, 2006, 09:27:41 PM
Chattanooga has the DI-AA game locked up in 2007 with an option for 2008. Avg attendance of 15,500 in chattavegas.
Neither Chatt or Salem has a geographic advantage over one another. Teams like Georgia Southern, Delaware, James Madison, and Montana have played in the championship the last few years.
As always gro votes for the AA, II, and III football weekend extravaganza in a 20,000+ seat stadium... in Bradenton florida. One game friday night, double header on saturday, Buccaneers on Sunday... perfect.
Stagg Bowl's been done in Bradenton.
My beef with Florida is that travel-wise, that's good for no one. There are no D3 teams in Florida.
I agree with Pat about the D3/D2/DI-AA (I still call it that) fans not really caring about each other's games. I would check it out if I were there already, but I just found out about 10 minutes before I posted who was alive in the other tournaments.
Anyway, I showed up to post this ... I'm told the city of Salem is going to get some major shine in USA Today next week, Thursday perhaps ... so keep your peepers peeled for that.
(has no idea why word "peepers" was used)
I would definitely recommend that the site not be moved around because of the amount of volunteer help that needs to be enlisted. Salem/Roanoke has done a great job of getting the cvic organizations invovled and keeping the prices down. It still has the D3 flavor to it. Leave it alone.
I started the last long thread on this topic and didn't expect to see the topic come up again given the heat it generated (it appears to have been removed). Anyway, I ended up supporting the notion of a D3/D2/D1AA weekend as the lax schools do. I understand Pat's view (I follow lacrosse as well) but I think there is much more potential than he recognizes. I think this kind of arrangement and the resulting increased draw would allow for a better venue in a better location and bring more excitement to the championships. I for one would be interested in attending, especially if the location was more attractive, and I would be interested in attending the other games. So long as the game is in Salem I don't believe you'll have anyone attending besides hardy supporters of the participants and some locals.
I'm always reminded of the time I was at a Notre Dame - USC game at the LA Coliseum back in the mid 70s and saw two guys and their wives in the stands wearing OU and Nebraska gear respectively. They stayed after the game, serving drinks to others and generally having a grand time. When I asked them how they happened to be there, they said they had been unable to get tickets to the OU-Nebraska game and so just picked another game that they wanted to attend together. They just loved football, the crowd and the experience of it all. I think if you put the Stagg in a better location you'd get people wanting to attend because they like the experience of it, regardless of whether their teams were in it. As noted, I don't think you'll ever get that in Salem.
Having said this, I recognize that many are intensely loyal to Salem and I don't suspect this will change any minds. But hey, K-Mack started it this time, not me. :D
I really have no strong feelings about this, but I do think there is some merit in following the Lacrosse model. They could have it maybe at the Metrodome, which is somewhat centrally located, and has a major airport. Another idea for a venue might be Dallas, for the same reason, plus the weather would probably be better than Salem at that time of year.
They could have a ticket prices linked to a one, two or three game package.
Dallas weather in December can be very unpredictable and you would not likely get any local media coverage. If you aren't the Dallas Cowboys, or maybe the Longhorns, you don't get coverage. You can hide 8-10,000 fans very comfortably in Texas Stadium.
Or you can play the Stagg in one of the Texas High School football palaces, like you find at Southlake Carroll High School, or the functional Plano Independent School District's Clark Field or another similar facility.
Keep it someplace where it is a big deal and fans can drive there, like Salem VA. It is on its way to becoming a special place for D3 fans.
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 08, 2006, 11:02:33 PM
Dallas weather in December can be very unpredictable and you would not likely get any local media coverage. If you aren't the Dallas Cowboys, or maybe the Longhorns, you don't get coverage. You can hide 8-10,000 fans very comfortably in Texas Stadium.
Or you can play the Stagg in one of the Texas High School football palaces, like you find at Southlake Carroll High School, or the functional Plano Independent School District's Clark Field or another similar facility.
Keep it someplace where it is a big deal and fans can drive there, like Salem VA. It is on its way to becoming a special place for D3 fans.
I don't disagree about Dallas weather but if you want to bury the Stagg Bowl with a maximum of 5,000 attendance, keep it in Salem.
Quote from: tmerton on December 08, 2006, 08:27:34 PM
I'm always reminded of the time I was at a Notre Dame - USC game at the LA Coliseum back in the mid 70s and saw two guys and their wives in the stands wearing OU and Nebraska gear respectively. They stayed after the game, serving drinks to others and generally having a grand time. When I asked them how they happened to be there, they said they had been unable to get tickets to the OU-Nebraska game and so just picked another game that they wanted to attend together.
That's great and all, but that's two I-A games. Would that group have given a rat's ass about UC-Davis/Cal Poly or Occidental/Redlands?
Quote from: tmerton on December 09, 2006, 02:05:52 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 08, 2006, 11:02:33 PM
Dallas weather in December can be very unpredictable and you would not likely get any local media coverage. If you aren't the Dallas Cowboys, or maybe the Longhorns, you don't get coverage. You can hide 8-10,000 fans very comfortably in Texas Stadium.
Or you can play the Stagg in one of the Texas High School football palaces, like you find at Southlake Carroll High School, or the functional Plano Independent School District's Clark Field or another similar facility.
Keep it someplace where it is a big deal and fans can drive there, like Salem VA. It is on its way to becoming a special place for D3 fans.
I don't disagree about Dallas weather but if you want to bury the Stagg Bowl with a maximum of 5,000 attendance, keep it in Salem.
You should come to one first before you trash it.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 09, 2006, 02:13:43 AM
Quote from: tmerton on December 08, 2006, 08:27:34 PM
I'm always reminded of the time I was at a Notre Dame - USC game at the LA Coliseum back in the mid 70s and saw two guys and their wives in the stands wearing OU and Nebraska gear respectively. They stayed after the game, serving drinks to others and generally having a grand time. When I asked them how they happened to be there, they said they had been unable to get tickets to the OU-Nebraska game and so just picked another game that they wanted to attend together.
That's great and all, but that's two I-A games. Would that group have given a rat's ass about UC-Davis/Cal Poly or Occidental/Redlands?
There are people who feel the same way about D3 football as those guys feel about 1-A. A lot of them post on this board.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 09, 2006, 02:14:42 AM
Quote from: tmerton on December 09, 2006, 02:05:52 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 08, 2006, 11:02:33 PM
Dallas weather in December can be very unpredictable and you would not likely get any local media coverage. If you aren't the Dallas Cowboys, or maybe the Longhorns, you don't get coverage. You can hide 8-10,000 fans very comfortably in Texas Stadium.
Or you can play the Stagg in one of the Texas High School football palaces, like you find at Southlake Carroll High School, or the functional Plano Independent School District's Clark Field or another similar facility.
Keep it someplace where it is a big deal and fans can drive there, like Salem VA. It is on its way to becoming a special place for D3 fans.
I don't disagree about Dallas weather but if you want to bury the Stagg Bowl with a maximum of 5,000 attendance, keep it in Salem.
You should come to one first before you trash it.
I apologize for the use of the term bury; I'm not meaning to trash Salem or diminish the work and effort that others have put into the Stagg Bowl there. On the issue of attendance, however, am I wrong? Is there
any chance the Stagg Bowl, played on a stand alone basis in Salem, VA, will draw more than 5 or maybe 6 thousand for a game?
I'm not likely to go to a Stagg Bowl in Salem unless my team is playing in it. I think the same holds true for everyone else except you, some ESPN people and a few locals - which is precisely the point I am making.
I watched the Montana-Massachusetts D1 Playoff Division semi-final last night. Great game. Glad I wasn't in the cold!
I had no interest in attending that game. I would much rather channel-surf the game.
I have no interest in attending the Championships in Chattanooga next week.
I think that I speak for a bunch of net-savvy 21st Century sports fans.
Let me select from the 14 choices that I have on the cable and internet systems that I know of, as I select the one that hits my fancy, this minute.
I think that the recurrent theme on these boards has been the enthusiasm that the Stagg has found from the locals in Salem, Va. We cannot buy that. It is a 10-hour drive one way for 80% of D3-dom. When that magic moment arrives for the fortunate finalists, most can stop what they are doing and drive to Salem.
I watched the MUC-SJF game/video feed, a great game in Alliance. I decided to pass on the UWW-Wesley game. Next week, the magic of 21st Century communications will let me see the Stagg Bowl, even tho' I am on call.
If the key irreproducible factor is the local support from Salem, why move it! :)
I think the question here really is this: If you move the Stagg Bowl from Salem, will the other Division III fans make up for the potential for diminished local support?
That's what you need to overcome, I think.
BTW, I don't believe for one second the rounded attendance numbers from Alabama and Florida in the early Stagg Bowls, other than the game West Georgia played in.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 09, 2006, 07:23:46 PM
I think the question here really is this: If you move the Stagg Bowl from Salem, will the other Division III fans make up for the potential for diminished local support?
That's what you need to overcome, I think.
BTW, I don't believe for one second the rounded attendance numbers from Alabama and Florida in the early Stagg Bowls, other than the game West Georgia played in.
There are no significant numbers of general D3 fans in warm weather venues. Official attendance at the HSU-UMHB 1802; the UMHB W&J game 1950. Those were during the first 2 weekends of the Texas high school football playoffs. Okay, but not stellar.
Salem, Va is as far south and east (for the sake of weather) as you can go away from the D3 football heartlands in Ohio, Wisconsin, Minnesota, New Jersey and upstate New York.
The attendance at the MUC/SJF game is not available on the MUC web site (yet).
I'm a D3 alum (Wartburg College '03) who recently moved to the Central Virginia area, and I'm dropping EVERYTHING to be in Salem on Saturday...even though I've never seen either of the teams play in person.
This is something I've been looking forward to since I found out I'd be moving here back in March. I wouldn't miss it for the world.
Look for me on ESPN.
No way should the game be moved. That would be just my luck, they move away just as I get here. ???
Lance, be sure to stop by the Stone Station tailgate in the parking lot. They'll be there around 10am and have a sign-in for posters. It is, easily, the biggest tailgate and will have the most D3football.com posters there. Look for the Bridgewater flags.
Quote from: Lance Harbor on December 10, 2006, 02:58:48 PM
I'm a D3 alum (Wartburg College '03) who recently moved to the Central Virginia area, and I'm dropping EVERYTHING to be in Salem on Saturday...even though I've never seen either of the teams play in person.
This is something I've been looking forward to since I found out I'd be moving here back in March. I wouldn't miss it for the world.
Look for me on ESPN.
No way should the game be moved. That would be just my luck, they move away just as I get here. ???
I'm with you Lance. I'm from Indiana, but I moved to Virginia in 2004 and have been to the past two years of Stagg Bowls. And, of course, I'll be there this year. The game was definitely a perk of living in Virginia.
Also, my soon-to-be wife has been wanting to move to Roanoke for years. Who am I to stop her!? :) I'd be heartbroken to be living right next door to Salem only to see the game moved. I hope it stays there for many many years to come.
This has been a very interesting thread. I'm glad it was started, and I'm glad to see so much support for keeping the game in Salem. The game really does get a lot of support from the community, mostly, as people have mentioned, from the media and the local civic groups. Plus, there's always a couple dozen people there wearing Va. Tech sweatshirts, so it does have some following from local football fans.
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 09, 2006, 08:35:53 PM
The attendance at the MUC/SJF game is not available on the MUC web site (yet).
Article on Mount Union site says 3532
The only possible acceptable move for me is to Fawcett Field in Canton. Save the NCAA a ton of travel money and save my marriage ;D
I think it's just great that there are a handful of D3 fans for whom Salem is a convenient venue. If I lived near there, I'd attend the game, too. But next year, when my team returns to the Stagg ;), I would like to get off the plane with golf clubs instead of my Sorel Boots, parka and mittens.
The plain truth is that 80% (at least) of the fans at the Stagg are there following their team and would follow their team wherever the game is played. Local Virginia area fans would be made up by local ____________ area fans (fill in the blank) from the new venue.
And, a decent venue would make it likely that more people would travel and spend more time doing it. Last time I was in Salem, we spent Friday night there and left after the game. Basically a 24 hour turnaround.
Folks in Salem are great folks though. But there's great folks everywhere, I've found.
I agree with fins. I'm not knocking salem but I personnaly think if they put the game back in Bradenton, FL it would easily pull just as many fans as recent Salem bowls and probably more. Bradenton has a lot to do in and around that area. Fans can fly (10 hour drive to salem, or 6 hours of airport time) to Tampa, Orlando, or Sarasota. It's the week before christmas so air fare deals can be found. The last time the Stagg was in Florida the internet wasn't as prevalent as it is now, so no d3.com and extended post patterns fan base, and most importantly no orbitz or travelocity (how did people go anywhere back then?? I'm serious).
Here's to future stagg bowl mancations in the sunshine state.
Salem does a fantastic job of putting this championship on. I don't think you are going to find the perfect place. (weather, distance, etc) You will be hard pressed to find a location that brings as much to the mix as Salem. Salem is becoming a d3 Mecca of sorts thanks at least in part to d3football.com.
Salem is:
- Driveable for the majority of d3.
- Salem has many years of putting these events on and knows how to do it.
- The Stagg Bowl is center stage in the Roanoke area for the weekend it is held. This would not be the
case in a larger city or if you combined the divisions.
- Daytime temperatures in VA in Dec. are tolerable. (If ESPN says 4:00, then it is 4:00 though.) I think if
you move it to warmer weather, you will lose many of the fans of d3 football in general. Once it moves out of practical drivable range and into "must fly" range you will lose a significant number of the fans of the teams that are in the Stagg Bowl as well as other d3 football fans. Especially, since the game is broadcast on ESPN.
Until some other location can step up with evidence that they can do it any better, I say leave well enough alone.
In what other location are you likely to get 'Stone Station'??!! ;D
The nearest D3 school to Bradenton, Florida...I believe...is LaGrange - a meer 486 miles from Bradenton. Sell that one if you are the NCAA.
Those who suggest non-D3 locales for games like this seem to have no idea the work that goes into hosting a national championship. Spend some time with the gang from the ODAC and Salem and witness all the work they put into making these games feel special, and you'd be shocked what it takes.
I'm not saying another locale couldn't do it - but D3 roots and location that is centric to a wide swath of D3 makes sense.
Quote from: patcummings on December 11, 2006, 09:14:15 PM
The nearest D3 school to Bradenton, Florida...I believe...is LaGrange - a meer 486 miles from Bradenton. Sell that one if you are the NCAA.
Those who suggest non-D3 locales for games like this seem to have no idea the work that goes into hosting a national championship. Spend some time with the gang from the ODAC and Salem and witness all the work they put into making these games feel special, and you'd be shocked what it takes.
I'm not saying another locale couldn't do it - but D3 roots and location that is centric to a wide swath of D3 makes sense.
and this is Lagrange's first year playing football so if it's the closest school, my I wonder where the next closest d3football school would be? Can't wait til this weekend to see all my d3football friends!! Let's party hearty!! 3 years in a row, purple rules!!!
While AUPepBand would never suggest the D3 football championship game be hosted in Alfred, NY; on an entirely different note, AUPepBand has put Alfred's hat into the ring for hosting the Ninth Great Obituary Writers' International Conference for 2007, or 2008 and/or 2009. A grave undertaking, indeed, but the group truly is above ground.
Quote from: tmerton on December 08, 2006, 08:27:34 PM
Having said this, I recognize that many are intensely loyal to Salem and I don't suspect this will change any minds. But hey, K-Mack started it this time, not me. :D
Well, it comes up a lot ... if your old thread was lost in the changeover or whatever, it shouldn't have been. I like that now we can just say "we're actually having that discussion here" instead of starting from scratch.
My personal feeling is not so much loyalty to Salem as it is a respect for how much behind-the-scenes work it takes to make it run smoothly. So I would only support a move if you can find another locale that's better for some other reason (like weather) and is also willing to match Salem's effort. They're not going to have the expertise the first few times around though, so they really need to bring something else to the table.
I'm in the 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' camp.
I like and respect that story about the OU/Nebraska guys, but I really think the interest the general public has in D3 football is overestimated. It is a niche sport with a small but devoted following ... I bet if you gave away free tickets you couldn't fill a I-A stadium in 99% of cities.
The people who would be randomly interested in the game are fewer than the local fans from Salem who have developed an attachment to the game (and Mount Union).
I do believe that if there were some marketing muscle behind the D3 story (students who happen to be pretty good at football too), it could gain some mass appeal, but as things currently stand, I don't think there's the general interest, sad to say.
Minneapolis or Dallas are not really Central locations to most of D3. Pittsburgh or Columbus, Ohio would be more like it.
There are very few warm-weather D3 climates (L.A. and Texas), and those are not centrally located at all. D3 is basically a cold-weather game, so Salem is actually a fitting locale, in my opinion.
A dome with 60,000 would just embarass us. A 10-15 capacity would be the most we'd need.
With the move to turf at Salem next year, it will better reflect the game played by the elite teams of D3.
Maybe the cross-division interest could be developed by a D-IAA, II and III game-fest, but right now I don't know if one division gives a crap about the other ... those of us who just love football do, but that's a small minority, I think.
Just my opinions though, feel free to discuss.
FTR, though, both coaches on today's conf. call were very much in support of keeping it in Salem. I get the feeling the Roanoke Times is writing about it this week. I'll link that and the USAT story if I see them.
Quote from: K-Mack on December 12, 2006, 02:06:32 AM
Quote from: tmerton on December 08, 2006, 08:27:34 PM
Having said this, I recognize that many are intensely loyal to Salem and I don't suspect this will change any minds. But hey, K-Mack started it this time, not me. :D
Well, it comes up a lot ... if your old thread was lost in the changeover or whatever, it shouldn't have been. I like that now we can just say "we're actually having that discussion here" instead of starting from scratch.
My personal feeling is not so much loyalty to Salem as it is a respect for how much behind-the-scenes work it takes to make it run smoothly. So I would only support a move if you can find another locale that's better for some other reason (like weather) and is also willing to match Salem's effort. They're not going to have the expertise the first few times around though, so they really need to bring something else to the table.
I'm in the 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' camp.
I like and respect that story about the OU/Nebraska guys, but I really think the interest the general public has in D3 football is overestimated. It is a niche sport with a small but devoted following ... I bet if you gave away free tickets you couldn't fill a I-A stadium in 99% of cities.
The people who would be randomly interested in the game are fewer than the local fans from Salem who have developed an attachment to the game (and Mount Union).
I do believe that if there were some marketing muscle behind the D3 story (students who happen to be pretty good at football too), it could gain some mass appeal, but as things currently stand, I don't think there's the general interest, sad to say.
Minneapolis or Dallas are not really Central locations to most of D3. Pittsburgh or Columbus, Ohio would be more like it.
There are very few warm-weather D3 climates (L.A. and Texas), and those are not centrally located at all. D3 is basically a cold-weather game, so Salem is actually a fitting locale, in my opinion.
A dome with 60,000 would just embarass us. A 10-15 capacity would be the most we'd need.
With the move to turf at Salem next year, it will better reflect the game played by the elite teams of D3.
Maybe the cross-division interest could be developed by a D-IAA, II and III game-fest, but right now I don't know if one division gives a crap about the other ... those of us who just love football do, but that's a small minority, I think.
Just my opinions though, feel free to discuss.
FTR, though, both coaches on today's conf. call were very much in support of keeping it in Salem. I get the feeling the Roanoke Times is writing about it this week. I'll link that and the USAT story if I see them.
Good stuff Keith. I don't think d3 will need a 20k seat stadium any time soon. I agree that you would be hard pressed to give away d3 tickets in many places.
We d3 fans are few (relatively speaking) but loyal. I think we have a good thing going and others are missing out. Perhaps 10 years from now d3 will fill 20k plus stadiums. Until such time, leave well enough alone and leave the game in Salem.
I would also like to give credit where credit is due. If those numbers ever do rise to that level, d3football.com has played a huge roll in making the d3 game more than just a regional thing. In the last few years, I have become a fan of all of d3, not just the ODAC and USA South. With the exception of 2001 when BC was in the finals, a few very short years ago, I would never have considered going to Salem for the Stagg Bowl. (even though I only live 60 miles away) I am sure I am not a lone.
GO PURPLE...GO STONE STATION...GO D3...ENJOY YOUR FEW HOURS IN THE NATIONAL LIMELIGHT!! 8)
We had a great time in Salem last year and intend to have one this year......See no reason to move the venue....
Quote
Quote from: seventiesraider on December 11, 2006, 12:35:59 PM
The only possible acceptable move for me is to Fawcett Field in Canton. Save the NCAA a ton of travel money and save my marriage ;D
I know this was said half in jest...but...I have had the same thought myself. And there is NO DOUBT of it being as successful as in Salem Va. Dont get me wrong, I have been to Salem a few times over the years and really enjoyed myself everytime. But Virginias weather in December is not that much better than Ohios. And you get to play on turf in Canton. Im not sure you need 20,000 seats for the Stagg Bowl, but in Stark County Ohio, if you light up the stadium the locals will come just out of curiosity. That adds to the ticket sales. Im not sure how many VA locals attend the Stagg Bowls. Ive met few myself. Then theres the Pro HOF next door for the out of towners as a bonus. The Volunteer mechanism is already in place because of the Ohio State Highschool Playoffs being there already. A nearby airport with hotels is another good factor for travellers. If Stark County loses the highschool championships to Columbus eventually, im sure they would jump at the chance to host another championship of any type. If they cant pull it off, Massillon is only 8 miles away...and they damn sure would love the job.
I doubt the NCAAA would want to give Mount Union a virtual home game, though.
I think Columbus, GA would be a great place for the Stagg Bowl! ::)
Quote
Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 13, 2006, 11:32:28 AM
I doubt the NCAAA would want to give Mount Union a virtual home game, though.
It is not a given that MUC would make the playoffs anyway. IMHO the competition has gotten much better lately. What is a given is that IF the game were to change locations to Stark County.... Ohio would be able to host a great Stagg Bowl for whoever were lucky enough to qualify. And please dont get me wrong, I LOVE MY TRIPS TO VIRGINIA. Its just that we have already proven that we can successfully host big football events. Equal to Virginia, if not better.
Quote from: D3Newbie on December 13, 2006, 11:47:37 AM
I think Columbus, GA would be a great place for the Stagg Bowl! ::)
That would work for me as it's only a little over an hour from my house. ::)
Quote from: section13raiderfan on December 13, 2006, 12:11:53 PM
It is not a given that MUC would make the playoffs anyway.
Possibly the funniest thing I've read today.
Perhaps after a couple of years in a row of Mount Union not making the playoffs then they might consider an Ohio location.
Im still pushing for the 1-aa/2/3 game but even without three games you could always thrown in a coaches conference/clinic or some sort of NFL and college combine or something. Maybe even the NCAA could hold football type leadership conferences or any of that other crap they do. Then they can force people to work those games at the same time....
Quote from: D3Newbie on December 13, 2006, 11:47:37 AM
I think Columbus, GA would be a great place for the Stagg Bowl! ::)
It's been several years since I visited Columbus, GA. What kind of facilities have they built and where is it. I know they built a baseball stadium down close to the river, but that's all I know about.
Quote from: section13raiderfan on December 13, 2006, 12:11:53 PM
Quote
Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 13, 2006, 11:32:28 AM
I doubt the NCAAA would want to give Mount Union a virtual home game, though.
It is not a given that MUC would make the playoffs anyway. IMHO the competition has gotten much better lately. What is a given is that IF the game were to change locations to Stark County.... Ohio would be able to host a great Stagg Bowl for whoever were lucky enough to qualify. And please dont get me wrong, I LOVE MY TRIPS TO VIRGINIA. Its just that we have already proven that we can successfully host big football events. Equal to Virginia, if not better.
Screw Canton.
I went there after the MUC game the other day ... After about 6 trips to Alliance, finally I had the time and my own car. And even though they say they're open until 8, they asked me which Christmas Party I was with when I got there.
I was denied entry (which at that point wasn't all that bad since I was dead tired. Plus I could see Donovan McNabb through the window from the parking lot).
Seriously speaking, that's not a bad idea, although I hope they'd rope off about 10,000 seats. Nothing worse than when there's more empties than filled seats. I like how the A's did it this year.
Pro Football HOF seems like a semi-logical site though ... unless they're too big time for us. With their cool corporate Christmas parties and all ;D
Quote from: Jonny Utah on December 13, 2006, 02:44:49 PM
Im still pushing for the 1-aa/2/3 game but even without three games you could always thrown in a coaches conference/clinic or some sort of NFL and college combine or something. Maybe even the NCAA could hold football type leadership conferences or any of that other crap they do. Then they can force people to work those games at the same time....
Good idea.
Maybe that's why the D3 coaches meet every year in Salem and D3 coaches and players host a clinic (some years) for kids on the morning of the Stagg Bowl.
I still don't see more than a passing crossover interest in D2 and I-AA bowls ... How many of you knew it was UMass and Appy State, and another rematch, Grand Valley and NW Missouri State?
Quote from: K-Mack on December 13, 2006, 04:46:01 PM
Maybe that's why the D3 coaches meet every year in Salem and D3 coaches and players host a clinic (some years) for kids on the morning of the Stagg Bowl.
I checked witha couple of coaching staffs in Texas, and the coaches are watching the state highschool semi-final games, looking at talent, this weekend.
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 13, 2006, 05:52:33 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 13, 2006, 04:46:01 PM
Maybe that's why the D3 coaches meet every year in Salem and D3 coaches and players host a clinic (some years) for kids on the morning of the Stagg Bowl.
I checked witha couple of coaching staffs in Texas, and the coaches are watching the state highschool semi-final games, looking at talent, this weekend.
I'm sure some go recruiting instead.
The official AFCA grand meeting might not be until a little later.
All I'm saying is the D3 committee coaches, if not several others, are always there on business. I met a bunch of coaches who had no dog in the Stagg Bowl fight that way, and I could also could always count on seeing a bunch of familiar (ODAC) faces there, all of whom couldn't have been on the committee.
I've also participated in the clinic in the past, though word was there was not going to be one this year. But I know something similar has been done before.
So that's proof Jonny Utah is on the right track with his thinking.
Tomorrow in USA TODAY, Page 3C everybody ... Salem gets love!
I did not edit the piece however, so I hope there's no mistakes. ;D
Glad to see we're still the JV. :-\
I just read the Salem story. I really liked it.
Sidebar about the Staggs and some other stuff too.
Definitely check it out online if you can't get a hard copy.
Quote from: K-Mack on December 13, 2006, 04:46:01 PM
Quote from: Jonny Utah on December 13, 2006, 02:44:49 PM
Im still pushing for the 1-aa/2/3 game but even without three games you could always thrown in a coaches conference/clinic or some sort of NFL and college combine or something. Maybe even the NCAA could hold football type leadership conferences or any of that other crap they do. Then they can force people to work those games at the same time....
Good idea.
Maybe that's why the D3 coaches meet every year in Salem and D3 coaches and players host a clinic (some years) for kids on the morning of the Stagg Bowl.
I still don't see more than a passing crossover interest in D2 and I-AA bowls ... How many of you knew it was UMass and Appy State, and another rematch, Grand Valley and NW Missouri State?
K-Mack
D3 football coaches have gone and will go to the stagg bowl no matter where it is, thats a given.
And maybe Im just the only one who loves to watch all 1-AA games and d2 games when their championships are on TV. Ive watched every Umass game in the playoffs (Im from Mass), and I also knew all about Grand Valley State (a powerhouse d2 team).
Put it in Florida in December and Im goin.....
Quote
Quote
Quote from: K-Mack on December 13, 2006, 10:25:44 PM
Tomorrow in USA TODAY, Page 3C everybody ... Salem gets love!
I did not edit the piece however, so I hope there's no mistakes. ;D
Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 13, 2006, 10:33:05 PM
Glad to see we're still the JV. :-\
Now Pat! In some parts of the world page 3 is the most read part of the daily newspaper. Take England for example. Just type page3.com into your computer and see what I mean. OK so this is not D3 related....but its at least DD. Everyday its another beauty too. ;)
Quote from: Jonny Utah on December 14, 2006, 07:22:54 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 13, 2006, 04:46:01 PM
Quote from: Jonny Utah on December 13, 2006, 02:44:49 PM
Im still pushing for the 1-aa/2/3 game but even without three games you could always thrown in a coaches conference/clinic or some sort of NFL and college combine or something. Maybe even the NCAA could hold football type leadership conferences or any of that other crap they do. Then they can force people to work those games at the same time....
Good idea.
Maybe that's why the D3 coaches meet every year in Salem and D3 coaches and players host a clinic (some years) for kids on the morning of the Stagg Bowl.
I still don't see more than a passing crossover interest in D2 and I-AA bowls ... How many of you knew it was UMass and Appy State, and another rematch, Grand Valley and NW Missouri State?
K-Mack
D3 football coaches have gone and will go to the stagg bowl no matter where it is, thats a given.
And maybe Im just the only one who loves to watch all 1-AA games and d2 games when their championships are on TV. Ive watched every Umass game in the playoffs (Im from Mass), and I also knew all about Grand Valley State (a powerhouse d2 team).
Put it in Florida in December and Im goin.....
Jonny,
I followed JMU in the I-AA playoffs until they got eliminated. (I live in VA) Haven't paid a bit of attention to it since. Would I enjoy watching the I-AA or D2 finals....sure. Would I fly somewhere to watch them play...doubtful. I would however, make an extra effort for D3. The fact that I played D3, had a father who coached D3, and have been around D3 all my life has a little something to do with it. I admit that. ;D Would I fly to FL for the Stagg Bowl? Maybe in a given year I might but year in and year out, probably not. Granted, I live an hour and 20 minutes from Salem so that is a "no brainer". Would I drive 6 or 8 hours for the Stagg Bowl year in and year out....probably. As I have mentioned in previous post...I think once air travel becomes the only practical way for fans to get to the host city, it will eliminate a large number of potential fans that will attend. Anywhere in FL is going to make driving impractical for a large majority of D3 fans. I may be wrong on this but I'd be willing to bet that if the Stagg Bowl were in FL, a significant number of the fans of the teams playing would not attend. Especially with ESPN carrying the game.
Anyway, just my humble opinion. I'm sure there will always be some disagreement on this topic.
Quote from: section13raiderfan on December 14, 2006, 07:32:44 AM
Quote
Quote
Quote from: K-Mack on December 13, 2006, 10:25:44 PM
Tomorrow in USA TODAY, Page 3C everybody ... Salem gets love!
I did not edit the piece however, so I hope there's no mistakes. ;D
Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 13, 2006, 10:33:05 PM
Glad to see we're still the JV. :-\
Now Pat! In some parts of the world page 3 is the most read part of the daily newspaper. Take England for example. Just type page3.com into your computer and see what I mean. OK so this is not D3 related....but its at least DD. Everyday its another beauty too. ;)
Now raiderfan, this is an upscale web site. We cannot have any cookies from visiting Page 3 of that London tabloid being dropped on this family-oriented meesage board or in Pat's server.
And if fans you thought that
Knightstalker's (http://www.d3sports.com/post/index.php?topic=564.435) "signature line" was a little risque, then stay away from Page 3! :-[ :o :D :D :D
No harm meant Ralph. I was just trying to lift Pats spirits a little. Pat if you think it necessary you can delete my post. I will not be upset at all. Go Raiders!
maybe it's just me, but the line for driving/flying is around 400-500 miles. And when you're talking about a quick weekend like the stagg bowl, then flying has it's advantages. Plus, with christmas the next weekend, flight deals should be available. I'll take 6-7 hours total airport to airport trip time (and for most probably quicker) vs. 8 straight hours in a car anyday. And a 500 mile drive is going to cost you about $180 (at a $0.36/mile burden on your vehicle, that's more than just gas) what's a plane ticket gonna cost $220?
So I'm the other guy with Johnny U that wants the game in Florida and to make an event out of it - add the 2 other championship games and/or have a conference, clinics etc. Not that salem is doing anything wrong, but if you put all that together and threw in the beach, I'm in.
And if the mean ole UMASS fans ask "who the hell is mount union anyway?" then TELL THEM!! Educate them. Make some friends who just like to watch football.
Quote from: section13raiderfan on December 14, 2006, 08:15:56 AM
No harm meant Ralph. I was just trying to lift Pats spirits a little. Pat if you think it necessary you can delete my post. I will not be upset at all. Go Raiders!
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Appropriate contrition and humility, raiderfan! Proud of you! :D :D :D :D :D
+1 Karma!
Travel safely and have a good Stagg Bowl! ;)
Hmmm, I wonder how much traffic has been driven to the Page 3 web page by that post. ??? :)
On a sad note, I was planning on going to the DI-AA game this Friday (I don't support either team, the game is about 20min from my house) but it sold out!!
Quote from: 'gro on December 14, 2006, 09:43:33 AM
maybe it's just me, but the line for driving/flying is around 400-500 miles. And when you're talking about a quick weekend like the stagg bowl, then flying has it's advantages. Plus, with christmas the next weekend, flight deals should be available. I'll take 6-7 hours total airport to airport trip time (and for most probably quicker) vs. 8 straight hours in a car anyday. And a 500 mile drive is going to cost you about $180 (at a $0.36/mile burden on your vehicle, that's more than just gas) what's a plane ticket gonna cost $220?
So I'm the other guy with Johnny U that wants the game in Florida and to make an event out of it - add the 2 other championship games and/or have a conference, clinics etc. Not that salem is doing anything wrong, but if you put all that together and threw in the beach, I'm in.
And if the mean ole UMASS fans ask "who the hell is mount union anyway?" then TELL THEM!! Educate them. Make some friends who just like to watch football.
gro,
You make some valid points. Not sure where you can get a $220 plane ticket though. I've never had one that cheap out of Roanoke. Course, I don't usually fly the week before Christmas. Your point is still well taken. I suppose cheaper air fare might be a plus of moving to a larger city too but I still say D3 would get lost in a larger city.
Well, we have beaten this topic to a pulp. Guess we will just have to leave it up to the powers that be. But for now... GO PURPLE...GO SALEM...GO D3!!! ;D
Quote from: K-Mack on December 13, 2006, 04:46:01 PM
I still don't see more than a passing crossover interest in D2 and I-AA bowls ... How many of you knew it was UMass and Appy State, and another rematch, Grand Valley and NW Missouri State?
I definitely knew about the 1-AA game as I had watched the semi-finals last week. I had not seen boo in the news about D2 in the media, though I certainly know about Grand Valley. Seems to me that 1AA and D3 are going strong within their respective fan bases; I don't have a similar feel for D2 even though there are a few D2 programs out here. They seem to get about as much press as JCs.
Quote from: allsky7 on December 14, 2006, 10:10:29 AM
Quote from: 'gro on December 14, 2006, 09:43:33 AM
maybe it's just me, but the line for driving/flying is around 400-500 miles. And when you're talking about a quick weekend like the stagg bowl, then flying has it's advantages. Plus, with christmas the next weekend, flight deals should be available. I'll take 6-7 hours total airport to airport trip time (and for most probably quicker) vs. 8 straight hours in a car anyday. And a 500 mile drive is going to cost you about $180 (at a $0.36/mile burden on your vehicle, that's more than just gas) what's a plane ticket gonna cost $220?
So I'm the other guy with Johnny U that wants the game in Florida and to make an event out of it - add the 2 other championship games and/or have a conference, clinics etc. Not that salem is doing anything wrong, but if you put all that together and threw in the beach, I'm in.
And if the mean ole UMASS fans ask "who the hell is mount union anyway?" then TELL THEM!! Educate them. Make some friends who just like to watch football.
gro,
You make some valid points. Not sure where you can get a $220 plane ticket though. I've never had one that cheap out of Roanoke. Course, I don't usually fly the week before Christmas. Your point is still well taken. I suppose cheaper air fare might be a plus of moving to a larger city too but I still say D3 would get lost in a larger city.
Well, we have beaten this topic to a pulp. Guess we will just have to leave it up to the powers that be. But for now... GO PURPLE...GO SALEM...GO D3!!! ;D
Well no matter where you have it 80%? of the fans will be fans of those two schools and still mostly former players, families, and relatives and friends of the players at that. So your going to get 3000-5000 if you put the game in Bangor, Maine or Miami, Florida. Then your going to get maybe 1000 people from the area to go. But like you ask yourself, would I go if its here or there?
Am I going to Salem Va ever to see a team other than Ithaca play? No
Am I going to Miami, Fla ever to see a team other than Ithaca play? Maybe, that would be a fun trip without the football
Can I drive to Salem or Fla? No
Can I fly into Mia for around $250? Yes
Can I fly into Salem/Roanoke for around $250? No
Would I go to Salem to see 3 football games? No
Would I go to Fla to see 3 football games? Probably at least once.
It should be noted that my flight to Roanoke from Philadelphia is $240.
Quote from: patcummings on December 14, 2006, 04:08:00 PM
It should be noted that my flight to Roanoke from Philadelphia is $240.
yea I just looked quick and there were no flights that were cheap. is Roanoke close to Salem where you would have to get a car? or is transportation any good there (public)
Don't mention Miami, it's "too big" and a D3 game would get lost... you know a monster truck rally might accidently get booked at the same stadium the same day, sending purple raiders running for their lives.
Bradenton is small enough to host (not sure of the stadium size), yet close enough to 3 airports, many attractions, and the beach. If that city put together a quality bid package, the NCAA would be bananas not to take it. Give it to FL for 2 years (just the stagg bowl, I'd like all 3 but it's not that important), see what happens.
JU, obviously none of these guys have heard of the mancation. In college, you and your buddys went on road trips. You cram 5-6 guys in a honda accord, drive off to either spring break or another friends college, eat cheap, drink cheaper, and usually sleep on a floor or in a recliner.
Now that you're older, wiser, and hopefully more financially stable... you go on the mancation. You call your buddies, pick a desination (Vegas, Mardi Gras, Florida), and you go banana's... making sure to send text messages to significant others to tell them that you are "behaving". Now the whole point of this post.
Mancation in Salem... all right.
Mancation in Tampa, FL... AIGHT!!!
Quote from: 'gro on December 14, 2006, 04:22:53 PM
JU, obviously none of these guys have heard of the mancation. In college, you and your buddys went on road trips. You cram 5-6 guys in a honda accord, drive off to either spring break or another friends college, eat cheap, drink cheaper, and usually sleep on a floor or in a recliner.
Now that you're older, wiser, and hopefully more financially stable... you go on the mancation. You call your buddies, pick a desination (Vegas, Mardi Gras, Florida), and you go banana's... making sure to send text messages to significant others to tell them that you are "behaving". Now the whole point of this post.
Mancation in Salem... all right.
Mancation in Tampa, FL... AIGHT!!!
Or Stagg Bowl in Vegas... yeah that would AIGHT too. Even has the right name.... STAGG!!! Cheap packages to Vegas abound and the food is good and cheap.
There is an article on USA today on the Stagg Bowl
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/2006-12-13-focus-salem_x.htm
It says Coppell, Texas is bidding for future games.
Gro, JT - count me in for a round of golf whenever we get to see the Stagg at a temperate (climate only) location. I'd be there this year for the game if there was more to offer than planes, buses and 2 star hotels.
As I like to say, the worst excuse for doing something a certain way is "we've always done it this way."
Quote from: finsleft on December 14, 2006, 05:28:26 PM
Gro, JT - count me in for a round of golf whenever we get to see the Stagg at a temperate (climate only) location. I'd be there this year for the game if there was more to offer than planes, buses and 2 star hotels.
As I like to say, the worst excuse for doing something a certain way is "we've always done it this way."
People were golfing here today. Sorry you missed it. :)
Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 14, 2006, 05:30:16 PM
Quote from: finsleft on December 14, 2006, 05:28:26 PM
Gro, JT - count me in for a round of golf whenever we get to see the Stagg at a temperate (climate only) location. I'd be there this year for the game if there was more to offer than planes, buses and 2 star hotels.
As I like to say, the worst excuse for doing something a certain way is "we've always done it this way."
People were golfing here today. Sorry you missed it. :)
Wow, once every 10 years. That's a lot of golf bag-schlepping for one round of golf.
77 degrees in Coppell, TX today. 80 and sunny tomorrow. 8) 8) 8)
$279 to DFW from Newark, NJ leaving Friday and coming back Sunday.
Quote from: JT on December 14, 2006, 05:47:53 PM
$279 to DFW from Newark, NJ leaving Friday and coming back Sunday.
3 pages of $179 fares on all major carriers to DFW from MSP for same dates. Call ahead for a tee time and pick your flight accordingly. 8)
We got it -- you still don't like the Stagg Bowl in Salem. Hard to tell.
Meanwhile, you just want to shut out the D-III fans who can drive to Salem?
Quote from: finsleft on December 14, 2006, 06:01:45 PM
Quote from: JT on December 14, 2006, 05:47:53 PM
$279 to DFW from Newark, NJ leaving Friday and coming back Sunday.
3 pages of $179 fares on all major carriers to DFW from MSP for same dates. Call ahead for a tee time and pick your flight accordingly. 8)
Hey fins...what do you need the Stagg Bowl for anyway? Sounds like your just in it for the golf. Hey, I have a great idea :o. You can take the cheap flight to DFW...get in 18 before 3 and still catch the Stagg Bowl on ESPN. ;D ;D
Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 14, 2006, 06:29:53 PM
We got it -- you still don't like the Stagg Bowl in Salem. Hard to tell.
Meanwhile, you just want to shut out the D-III fans who can drive to Salem?
I'm cool with Salem. But unless you live within a couple of hours, you can't justify going unless your team is playing.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 14, 2006, 06:29:53 PM
We got it -- you still don't like the Stagg Bowl in Salem. Hard to tell.
Meanwhile, you just want to shut out the D-III fans who can drive to Salem?
They can drive... to the airport. zing!
Go for Vegas.... they have more $$$ than the NCAA's. So dropping some coin on sponsoring a football game would be easy. You'd get the LL planning mancations to Vegas in June.... couples (Me) planning to head out. Golf, gambling, shopping etc.,
How do you explain Salem, VA to a significant other?
She: What's there to do?
Me: Not much. Wanna go to a bonfire?
From the Dose:
QuoteuwwWHOOT Says:
The 14th of December, 2006 at 9:45 pm
Interesting that the USA Today article talks about the possibility of Salem losing out to Coppell, TX in future years. It is a shame because I really enjoyed my first trip there last year and will definately be enjoying this weekend. Coppell is just typical suburban DFW. Easy to get to but no charm. It looks like local attendance is an issue though.
QuoteD3Keith Says:
The 14th of December, 2006 at 9:50 pm
Yeah,
it said Coppell put in a bid. Which is nice and all ... but I mean, Muskingum technically has a chance each time it lines up against Mount Union too.
I don't have any knowledge of the situation, but Coppell might either have to guarantee more cash to the NCAA or do something really spectacular to lure the game from Salem. As the story also noted, small-school championships are getting rather comfortable there.
Quote from: Jonny Utah on December 14, 2006, 07:22:54 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 13, 2006, 04:46:01 PM
Quote from: Jonny Utah on December 13, 2006, 02:44:49 PM
Im still pushing for the 1-aa/2/3 game but even without three games you could always thrown in a coaches conference/clinic or some sort of NFL and college combine or something. Maybe even the NCAA could hold football type leadership conferences or any of that other crap they do. Then they can force people to work those games at the same time....
Good idea.
Maybe that's why the D3 coaches meet every year in Salem and D3 coaches and players host a clinic (some years) for kids on the morning of the Stagg Bowl.
I still don't see more than a passing crossover interest in D2 and I-AA bowls ... How many of you knew it was UMass and Appy State, and another rematch, Grand Valley and NW Missouri State?
K-Mack
D3 football coaches have gone and will go to the stagg bowl no matter where it is, thats a given.
And maybe Im just the only one who loves to watch all 1-AA games and d2 games when their championships are on TV. Ive watched every Umass game in the playoffs (Im from Mass), and I also knew all about Grand Valley State (a powerhouse d2 team).
Put it in Florida in December and Im goin.....
I don't think you're the only one. I'd watch, and I know a lot of people on this board would watch. We had the I-AA game on in the Stagg Bowl hospitality room last year, watching with a whole bunch of D3 coaches and administrators.
My point is I think people like us are exceptions to the rule. I don't think there are great numbers of people with great interest in multiple divisions ... and even those of us that look in on II once or twice a year aren't necessarily die-hards.
Anyway, it's just my opinion. I'm not sure it could hurt attendance if they were all in the same place, and I bet ESPN would be fine sending one TV setup out to do three games (although they might still need multiple crews) ... I just don't know if it would be much of an attendance boon.
If you took Deer Hunter, Duck Hunter and Quail Hunter and made them into one magazine, you still have a niche publication ... you know what I'm sayin?
Quote from: JT on December 14, 2006, 07:28:27 PM
I'm cool with Salem. But unless you live within a couple of hours, you can't justify going unless your team is playing.
Lots of people seem to be able to do so regardless.
UWWwhoot is right about Coppell (kah' pell"). Unless Coppell was able to boost attendance with a Battle of the High School Bands, I seriously doubt it. Many of the big high school bands have gone 3-4 games deep into the postseason by now and are tired of it.
Great air accommodations and plenty of hotels, but the event might get lost, even to a big semifinal game at Texas Stadium. I noted earlier that Southlake Carroll and Euless Trinity played a 2nd round game before 46,000 fans at Texas Stadium.
Given MUC vs St Johns, most DFW fans might prefer Southlake Carroll vs Plano West.
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 14, 2006, 10:49:58 PM
Given MUC vs St Johns, most DFW fans might prefer Southlake Carroll vs Plano West.
So true.
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 14, 2006, 10:49:58 PM
UWWwhoot is right about Coppell (kah' pell"). Unless Coppell was able to boost attendance with a Battle of the High School Bands, I seriously doubt it. Many of the big high school bands have gone 3-4 games deep into the postseason by now and are tired of it.
Great air accommodations and plenty of hotels, but the event might get lost, even to a big semifinal game at Texas Stadium. I noted earlier that Southlake Carroll and Euless Trinity played a 2nd round game before 46,000 fans at Texas Stadium.
Given MUC vs St Johns, most DFW fans might prefer Southlake Carroll vs Plano West.
Southlake's coach just took the North Texas job too. :)
Methinks Texas might have other things to consider.
But best of luck. I wonder why Coppell wants it and whose idea it was.
Quote from: finsleft on December 14, 2006, 05:28:26 PM
As I like to say, the worst excuse for doing something a certain way is "we've always done it this way."
So do you normally fix things that aren't broken? Because that's one of those phrases that sounds cool but doesn't always apply.
When I drive to work, for instance, a good reason to go the way I always go is because I've always gone that way. It's short, the traffic is managable, and I know it gets me there.
Salem is the same way. No guarantee that some other place couldn't do it better, and it would be fine for them to try ... but hosting this thing is a lot harder than it looks, you need the right core of volunteers, the right venue and the right city to give it enough shine without it getting lost among big pro and big-college games that same weekend. It takes a lot of love to put it on and do it well, because there's not enough cash in it to do it for the money.
It could leave Salem and flop, you know?
Quote from: JT on December 14, 2006, 09:26:00 PM
Go for Vegas.... they have more $$$ than the NCAA's. So dropping some coin on sponsoring a football game would be easy. You'd get the LL planning mancations to Vegas in June.... couples (Me) planning to head out. Golf, gambling, shopping etc.,
How do you explain Salem, VA to a significant other?
She: What's there to do?
Me: Not much. Wanna go to a bonfire?
Point.
Although "not much to do" means you focus on the game.
And frankly, I don't need to be dragged to all the big-name outlets, shopping hot spots and spas when I'm trying to get my tailgate on, y'nahmean?
Quote from: K-Mack on December 14, 2006, 11:49:18 PM
...
But best of luck. I wonder why Coppell wants it and whose idea it was.
I wonder if it is the convention business at Gaylord Texas, just around the corner.
Quote from: 'gro on December 14, 2006, 09:43:33 AM
maybe it's just me, but the line for driving/flying is around 400-500 miles. And when you're talking about a quick weekend like the stagg bowl, then flying has it's advantages. Plus, with christmas the next weekend, flight deals should be available. I'll take 6-7 hours total airport to airport trip time (and for most probably quicker) vs. 8 straight hours in a car anyday. And a 500 mile drive is going to cost you about $180 (at a $0.36/mile burden on your vehicle, that's more than just gas) what's a plane ticket gonna cost $220?
So I'm the other guy with Johnny U that wants the game in Florida and to make an event out of it - add the 2 other championship games and/or have a conference, clinics etc. Not that salem is doing anything wrong, but if you put all that together and threw in the beach, I'm in.
And if the mean ole UMASS fans ask "who the hell is mount union anyway?" then TELL THEM!! Educate them. Make some friends who just like to watch football.
Gro,
I have a line for driving too, I'd say four hours in each direction or no more than 6-8 total, one-way, if you're staying a couple days. I might have done some crazier solo drives (pulled the entire D.C. to Montreal leg once), but they sucked grand royally.
I fly a bunch and don't check baggage, and I'm fascinated (still) by flying, and I still prefer to drive usually. I guess because you don't have to wait on anyone else to get going, etc.
But it is nice to kick back and read/bop to the beat rather than pull shifts behind the wheel too, so ...
All I'm saying about the Super-event is that the advantages (slightly increased attendance, making friends who just like football, more stuff to do) don't necessarily outweigh the benefits of being the only game in town (more available hotel rooms and shorter waits when going out to eat, all local media attention focused on our game, etc.)
Plus, a I-AA stadium of 25 Gs is not for us, at least not yet. Mount Union and Whitewater don't draw 10,000 a game for homecoming or their biggest rivals.
FWIW.
Quote from: tmerton on December 09, 2006, 01:11:52 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 09, 2006, 02:14:42 AM
Quote from: tmerton on December 09, 2006, 02:05:52 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 08, 2006, 11:02:33 PM
Dallas weather in December can be very unpredictable and you would not likely get any local media coverage. If you aren't the Dallas Cowboys, or maybe the Longhorns, you don't get coverage. You can hide 8-10,000 fans very comfortably in Texas Stadium.
Or you can play the Stagg in one of the Texas High School football palaces, like you find at Southlake Carroll High School, or the functional Plano Independent School District's Clark Field or another similar facility.
Keep it someplace where it is a big deal and fans can drive there, like Salem VA. It is on its way to becoming a special place for D3 fans.
I don't disagree about Dallas weather but if you want to bury the Stagg Bowl with a maximum of 5,000 attendance, keep it in Salem.
You should come to one first before you trash it.
I apologize for the use of the term bury; I'm not meaning to trash Salem or diminish the work and effort that others have put into the Stagg Bowl there. On the issue of attendance, however, am I wrong? Is there any chance the Stagg Bowl, played on a stand alone basis in Salem, VA, will draw more than 5 or maybe 6 thousand for a game?
I'm not likely to go to a Stagg Bowl in Salem unless my team is playing in it. I think the same holds true for everyone else except you, some ESPN people and a few locals - which is precisely the point I am making.
So how would that be different in Coppell, Texas, Minneapolis, Evansville, Ind., Florida or any of the other places that have been suggested?
At least the Canton backer made a really good case for how it would be attended and how the volunteer model is already in place (plus we have the hook-up at Massillon, call Waynesburg!)
"I'm not likely to go to a Stagg Bowl in Salem unless my team is playing in it."
That's probably a fact across D3, and with fans in general ... and has little to do with Salem. A lot of people would probably consider it no matter who's playing if it was a day trip away from home. Otherwise, there would have to be a real reason to want to go.
What makes you think that the number of random fans it has in Salem would be greater anywhere else, besides Ohio? At least Salem locals know what the game is now, and have the experience of following it.
And what's so important about going from 5,000 to maybe 7,500 in attendance anyway? The key groups to impress are the teams and their fans. Anything else is gravy.
I can see why it would be fair to rotate it to some other more-westerly but still-centrally-located place similar to Salem, but in the Central Time Zone maybe ... but as someone mentioned, there is a pretty high standard that Salem has set that the new city would have to meet.
And for the record, attendance spiked to almost 10,000 when Bridgewater (1 hour away) was in it. Certainly having it closer to Mount Union could boost attendance numbers.
But look at the history of the game, too. It was tried in Kings Island, Ohio. It was in Bradenton, Fla. It was in Phenix City, Ala. The attendance numbers from those Stagg Bowls aren't dissimilar to the ones today, and D3 was better-attended overall in the 70s and 80s.
Sorry to belabor the point and dominate this thread, but EXACTLY! (see below)
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 09, 2006, 03:55:52 PM
I watched the Montana-Massachusetts D1 Playoff Division semi-final last night. Great game. Glad I wasn't in the cold!
I had no interest in attending that game. I would much rather channel-surf the game.
I have no interest in attending the Championships in Chattanooga next week.
I think that I speak for a bunch of net-savvy 21st Century sports fans.
Let me select from the 14 choices that I have on the cable and internet systems that I know of, as I select the one that hits my fancy, this minute.
I think that the recurrent theme on these boards has been the enthusiasm that the Stagg has found from the locals in Salem, Va. We cannot buy that. It is a 10-hour drive one way for 80% of D3-dom. When that magic moment arrives for the fortunate finalists, most can stop what they are doing and drive to Salem.
I watched the MUC-SJF game/video feed, a great game in Alliance. I decided to pass on the UWW-Wesley game. Next week, the magic of 21st Century communications will let me see the Stagg Bowl, even tho' I am on call.
If the key irreproducible factor is the local support from Salem, why move it! :)
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 09, 2006, 08:35:53 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 09, 2006, 07:23:46 PM
I think the question here really is this: If you move the Stagg Bowl from Salem, will the other Division III fans make up for the potential for diminished local support?
That's what you need to overcome, I think.
BTW, I don't believe for one second the rounded attendance numbers from Alabama and Florida in the early Stagg Bowls, other than the game West Georgia played in.
There are no significant numbers of general D3 fans in warm weather venues. Official attendance at the HSU-UMHB 1802; the UMHB W&J game 1950. Those were during the first 2 weekends of the Texas high school football playoffs. Okay, but not stellar.
Salem, Va is as far south and east (for the sake of weather) as you can go away from the D3 football heartlands in Ohio, Wisconsin, Minnesota, New Jersey and upstate New York.
The attendance at the MUC/SJF game is not available on the MUC web site (yet).
Quote from: 'gro on December 11, 2006, 08:42:18 PM
I agree with fins. I'm not knocking salem but I personnaly think if they put the game back in Bradenton, FL it would easily pull just as many fans as recent Salem bowls and probably more. Bradenton has a lot to do in and around that area. Fans can fly (10 hour drive to salem, or 6 hours of airport time) to Tampa, Orlando, or Sarasota. It's the week before christmas so air fare deals can be found. The last time the Stagg was in Florida the internet wasn't as prevalent as it is now, so no d3.com and extended post patterns fan base, and most importantly no orbitz or travelocity (how did people go anywhere back then?? I'm serious).
Here's to future stagg bowl mancations in the sunshine state.
I always thought it was more expensive to fly during the holidays.
But as we know, it's not about fan flights ... the NCAA would have to pick up the tab to send both teams to Florida. ... It might be a wink-wink thing, but I bet any city within 500 miles of Alliance, Ohio has an unofficial advantage over cities outside that radius.
One more point.........
you could even throw a 1-A lesser bowl game in there like a BC/Navy game or something like that...
Quote from: Jonny Utah on December 15, 2006, 12:50:58 AMOne more point....
you could even throw a 1-A lesser bowl game in there like a BC/Navy game or something like that...
You could.
Why would this be a good thing again?
Quote from: K-Mack on December 15, 2006, 12:52:02 AM
Quote from: Jonny Utah on December 15, 2006, 12:50:58 AMOne more point....
you could even throw a 1-A lesser bowl game in there like a BC/Navy game or something like that...
You could.
Why would this be a good thing again?
Well let me start over.
What I would want (which might not be able to happen and I could understand why) is what lacrosse does. That is to have a huge event on a weekend with a few championship games where thousands of people turn it into an event that keeps getting bigger and bigger every year. Now I understand that a d3football game isnt going to get 50+ thousand or whatever d1 and d3 lacrosse gets, but if you turn it into a weekend where multiple games are played, I think you can have more interest, fans and money in the long run.
Again, I can see how lacrosse is more of a cult, but I believe that small college football can achieve some of the same success that lax does.
Add a d1 smaller bowl game there and that could be something.
And imagine if d1 goes to a playoff system and they have their championship game the same place/week?!?!
Quote from: Jonny Utah on December 14, 2006, 04:02:03 PM
Quote from: allsky7 on December 14, 2006, 10:10:29 AM
Quote from: 'gro on December 14, 2006, 09:43:33 AM
maybe it's just me, but the line for driving/flying is around 400-500 miles. And when you're talking about a quick weekend like the stagg bowl, then flying has it's advantages. Plus, with christmas the next weekend, flight deals should be available. I'll take 6-7 hours total airport to airport trip time (and for most probably quicker) vs. 8 straight hours in a car anyday. And a 500 mile drive is going to cost you about $180 (at a $0.36/mile burden on your vehicle, that's more than just gas) what's a plane ticket gonna cost $220?
So I'm the other guy with Johnny U that wants the game in Florida and to make an event out of it - add the 2 other championship games and/or have a conference, clinics etc. Not that salem is doing anything wrong, but if you put all that together and threw in the beach, I'm in.
And if the mean ole UMASS fans ask "who the hell is mount union anyway?" then TELL THEM!! Educate them. Make some friends who just like to watch football.
gro,
You make some valid points. Not sure where you can get a $220 plane ticket though. I've never had one that cheap out of Roanoke. Course, I don't usually fly the week before Christmas. Your point is still well taken. I suppose cheaper air fare might be a plus of moving to a larger city too but I still say D3 would get lost in a larger city.
Well, we have beaten this topic to a pulp. Guess we will just have to leave it up to the powers that be. But for now... GO PURPLE...GO SALEM...GO D3!!! ;D
Well no matter where you have it 80%? of the fans will be fans of those two schools and still mostly former players, families, and relatives and friends of the players at that. So your going to get 3000-5000 if you put the game in Bangor, Maine or Miami, Florida. Then your going to get maybe 1000 people from the area to go. But like you ask yourself, would I go if its here or there?
Am I going to Salem Va ever to see a team other than Ithaca play? No
Am I going to Miami, Fla ever to see a team other than Ithaca play? Maybe, that would be a fun trip without the football
Can I drive to Salem or Fla? No
Can I fly into Mia for around $250? Yes
Can I fly into Salem/Roanoke for around $250? No
Would I go to Salem to see 3 football games? No
Would I go to Fla to see 3 football games? Probably at least once.
I agree with most of this, on a base level anyway. You have a set number of fans that are going either way, and at least half of them haven't bought tickets or made reservations until a week or two before the game.
You have x number of local walk-ups no matter where you are.
So what you're saying is there's a group of die-hard D3 fans that would pay to go to the game if there were a reason to go besides just the game.
How many of those would you guess there are? You, me and the people reading this thread. How many more?
How much do you think a warm weather locale would boost attendance? 50 people? 500?1,000? 5,000?
What is the number (in your opinion here, I'm not asking you to function like a D3 official) to make it worth the change?
I'm trying to figure out how important you think the attendance figure is, aside from all the support and travel costs for the NCAA and all that stuff.
Because if there's one thing we know, it's that if there's enough money in it, anything's possible.
I'd like to hear thoughts on this.
Because Pat and I briefly discussed this week taking the off-the-field event for general D3 fans at the Stagg Bowl to the next level next year.
Quote from: Jonny Utah on December 15, 2006, 01:01:34 AM
And imagine if d1 goes to a playoff system
OK, now you're just getting out of control. :D
Jonny,
OK, same questions, but with "super-fest" in there instead of warm weather locale (or both)
Quote from: K-Mack on December 15, 2006, 01:02:51 AM
I agree with most of this, on a base level anyway. You have a set number of fans that are going either way, and at least half of them haven't bought tickets or made reservations until a week or two before the game.
You have x number of local walk-ups no matter where you are.
So what you're saying is there's a group of die-hard D3 fans that would pay to go to the game if there were a reason to go besides just the game.
How many of those would you guess there are? You, me and the people reading this thread. How many more?
How much do you think a warm weather locale would boost attendance? 50 people? 500?1,000? 5,000?
What is the number (in your opinion here, I'm not asking you to function like a D3 official) to make it worth the change?
I'm trying to figure out how important you think the attendance figure is, aside from all the support and travel costs for the NCAA and all that stuff.
Because if there's one thing we know, it's that if there's enough money in it, anything's possible.
well bottom line, Im not going anywhere that its cold to watch football games in december unless Ithaca is playing or if the game is 3 hours away from me (maybe 4-5 if its in NYC)
lax can have the games in the northeast because its going to be nice on memorial day no matter where you are in the country. That gives lax an advantage.
Thats why I think a nice weather place is real important for me.
Maybe theres somewhere in the northeast that can build a stadium similar to Idaho, N. Arizona or those dakota schools. If you can do that in a place like NYC then you can have the event there.
I also like the idea like lacrosse where you have 3 championship games at one place. To be honest, Mt. union, Grand Valley state, and Umass are three teams that I would love to see in person play. Of course I played d3 but all three of these divisions have some good football to watch.
Quote from: K-Mack on December 15, 2006, 01:06:29 AM
Jonny,
OK, same questions, but with "super-fest" in there instead of warm weather locale (or both)
Quote from: K-Mack on December 15, 2006, 01:02:51 AM
I agree with most of this, on a base level anyway. You have a set number of fans that are going either way, and at least half of them haven't bought tickets or made reservations until a week or two before the game.
You have x number of local walk-ups no matter where you are.
So what you're saying is there's a group of die-hard D3 fans that would pay to go to the game if there were a reason to go besides just the game.
How many of those would you guess there are? You, me and the people reading this thread. How many more?
How much do you think a warm weather locale would boost attendance? 50 people? 500?1,000? 5,000?
What is the number (in your opinion here, I'm not asking you to function like a D3 official) to make it worth the change?
I'm trying to figure out how important you think the attendance figure is, aside from all the support and travel costs for the NCAA and all that stuff.
Because if there's one thing we know, it's that if there's enough money in it, anything's possible.
and to answer your questions, I think your overall goal is to make it like lacrosse, and thats to have nice weather and 50K fans that weekend.
Who else is going to go to the games? Not an easy question to answer. But you can say that all the 1-AA coaches that dont make it go to the 1-AA game and would go to the d3 game as well. Its like the AFCA convention....coaches love going to that thing. Its not all about the clinics, its about meeting old friends, looking for new jobs, etc...
but yea, theres not an easy answer right way.
But it should be the goal for the NCAA to have the 1-AA,2,3 weekend to be like the lax weekend. I think it could be done.
Quote from: Jonny Utah on December 15, 2006, 01:18:36 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 15, 2006, 01:06:29 AM
Jonny,
OK, same questions, but with "super-fest" in there instead of warm weather locale (or both)
Quote from: K-Mack on December 15, 2006, 01:02:51 AM
I agree with most of this, on a base level anyway. You have a set number of fans that are going either way, and at least half of them haven't bought tickets or made reservations until a week or two before the game.
You have x number of local walk-ups no matter where you are.
So what you're saying is there's a group of die-hard D3 fans that would pay to go to the game if there were a reason to go besides just the game.
How many of those would you guess there are? You, me and the people reading this thread. How many more?
How much do you think a warm weather locale would boost attendance? 50 people? 500?1,000? 5,000?
What is the number (in your opinion here, I'm not asking you to function like a D3 official) to make it worth the change?
I'm trying to figure out how important you think the attendance figure is, aside from all the support and travel costs for the NCAA and all that stuff.
Because if there's one thing we know, it's that if there's enough money in it, anything's possible.
and to answer your questions, I think your overall goal is to make it like lacrosse, and thats to have nice weather and 50K fans that weekend.
Who else is going to go to the games? Not an easy question to answer. But you can say that all the 1-AA coaches that dont make it go to the 1-AA game and would go to the d3 game as well. Its like the AFCA convention....coaches love going to that thing. Its not all about the clinics, its about meeting old friends, looking for new jobs, etc...
but yea, theres not an easy answer right way.
But it should be the goal for the NCAA to have the 1-AA,2,3 weekend to be like the lax weekend. I think it could be done.
Man....you guys are on a roll here. Said I was done with this topic but....... Ok, let me start by saying that I admit that I have a Salem/VA/ODAC bias. I am trying to keep an open mind here about this debate.
I just think when you make a pro/con list, the pro's of keeping it in Salem outweigh the cons considerably. (all things taken into account)
Question Jonny...If you did a combo type of weekend, how would you do the schedule of games? One Friday night, one Saturday afternoon, and one Saturday night? Would you rotate the schedule from year to year or would I-AA always get the prime time slot. Would ESPN be willing/able to broadcast all three games in such a short period of time. Your talking 10 plus hours of program time in one weekend. D3/D2/I-AA football versus D1 basketball...guess who wins that battle? God forbid ESPN having to short championship POKER!! ::) WHEW, I'm exausted. ;D Throw in a little Stone Station and it certainly wouldn't leave much time for golf or shopping . The week before Christmas I think you will be hard pressed to make this more than a 3 day event, max. On the surface, the combo thing has some merit maybe but logistically, I think you have problems. Lax has a holiday weekend to pull their thing off. And as previously mentioned, lax has more of a "cult" following. I don't see that same relationship between D3 football and the other divisions. At least not nearly to the same level as lax.
I think the strongest argument for moving the Stagg away from Salem would be to move it somewhere like OH, somewhere more centrally located to more D3 schools/fans. Then you get back to issues like weather and what local is willing to make the effort required to put this event on right. It is a showcase event in Salem.
I think as far as attendance goes, 5-7k is realistic no matter where the game is played. Maybe 10k max on a good year like 2001 when Bridgewater was there. Obviously, attendance is important because $ makes the world spin around. Maybe one day D3 will draw 10k plus crowds. I think we are a few years away from that.
I'm sure this is an on going process. Salem will have challengers. I think the decision makers should/will think long and hard before moving the game elsewhere.
Ok folks, just went back and read this post. My apologies for the rambling. Just tough to get all my thoughts organized on this topic because there are so many. I'll stop now. ;D
I know my posts seem anti-salem, I am in favor of moving the stagg if and only if the bidding city put a slam dunk proposal on the table. it would have to be head and shoulders above the rest.
That being said, if somehow Gro gave up his day job, he could bring the Stagg to a nice warm locale somewhere inbetween Tampa and Daytona and put 5,000 in the seats year 1, 8,000 year 2. guaranteed.
to learn more, please send $49.95 via paypal to gro@grobiznassideas.com
Quote from: 'gro on December 15, 2006, 09:01:10 AM
I know my posts seem anti-salem, I am in favor of moving the stagg if and only if the bidding city put a slam dunk proposal on the table. it would have to be head and shoulders above the rest.
That being said, if somehow Gro gave up his day job, he could bring the Stagg to a nice warm locale somewhere inbetween Tampa and Daytona and put 5,000 in the seats year 1, 8,000 year 2. guarunteed.
to learn more, please send $49.95 via paypal to gro@grobiznassideas.com
Ok...I am going to put this topic to rest...AGAIN. :o (unless someone really...really twist my arm ;D) One thing is for sure. Tomorrow, the Stagg Bowl IS in Salem. SOOOOOOO... I am going to go to Stone Station and toss back a beverage or two with my fellow D3 brothers and sisters and just enjoy 60 degree and sunny weather. And oh yeah, there just might be a helluva football game going on close by too. :D
Quote from: K-Mack on December 15, 2006, 12:02:42 AM
Quote from: JT on December 14, 2006, 09:26:00 PM
Go for Vegas.... they have more $$$ than the NCAA's. So dropping some coin on sponsoring a football game would be easy. You'd get the LL planning mancations to Vegas in June.... couples (Me) planning to head out. Golf, gambling, shopping etc.,
How do you explain Salem, VA to a significant other?
She: What's there to do?
Me: Not much. Wanna go to a bonfire?
Point.
Although "not much to do" means you focus on the game.
And frankly, I don't need to be dragged to all the big-name outlets, shopping hot spots and spas when I'm trying to get my tailgate on, y'nahmean?
I wouldn't be go shopping unless it was for tailgating material. If it isn't my team, I would just be enjoying the atmosphere and hopefully a good game. And in all honesty, the game would have to be much bigger than it is in order to be move to a "hot spot".
The Salem location almost guarentees that at least one team is going to bus in. Coppell would change that dynamic. Unless they are ponying up a lot more dough, they won't get the Stagg.
The key word in this topic is BETTER. Of course, if you can find something better, you should do it. So far, I haven't seen anything that is a slam dunk for being better, so till then, Salem it is. Should always be looking though.
I don't think you can get the Stagg in a better place logistically. Its fun to think about other places, but then the game would have to be a bigger draw.
Quote from: K-Mack on December 15, 2006, 12:42:40 AM
Quote from: tmerton on December 09, 2006, 01:11:52 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 09, 2006, 02:14:42 AM
Quote from: tmerton on December 09, 2006, 02:05:52 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 08, 2006, 11:02:33 PM
Dallas weather in December can be very unpredictable and you would not likely get any local media coverage. If you aren't the Dallas Cowboys, or maybe the Longhorns, you don't get coverage. You can hide 8-10,000 fans very comfortably in Texas Stadium.
Or you can play the Stagg in one of the Texas High School football palaces, like you find at Southlake Carroll High School, or the functional Plano Independent School District's Clark Field or another similar facility.
Keep it someplace where it is a big deal and fans can drive there, like Salem VA. It is on its way to becoming a special place for D3 fans.
I don't disagree about Dallas weather but if you want to bury the Stagg Bowl with a maximum of 5,000 attendance, keep it in Salem.
You should come to one first before you trash it.
I apologize for the use of the term bury; I'm not meaning to trash Salem or diminish the work and effort that others have put into the Stagg Bowl there. On the issue of attendance, however, am I wrong? Is there any chance the Stagg Bowl, played on a stand alone basis in Salem, VA, will draw more than 5 or maybe 6 thousand for a game?
I'm not likely to go to a Stagg Bowl in Salem unless my team is playing in it. I think the same holds true for everyone else except you, some ESPN people and a few locals - which is precisely the point I am making.
So how would that be different in Coppell, Texas, Minneapolis, Evansville, Ind., Florida or any of the other places that have been suggested?
At least the Canton backer made a really good case for how it would be attended and how the volunteer model is already in place (plus we have the hook-up at Massillon, call Waynesburg!)
"I'm not likely to go to a Stagg Bowl in Salem unless my team is playing in it."
That's probably a fact across D3, and with fans in general ... and has little to do with Salem. A lot of people would probably consider it no matter who's playing if it was a day trip away from home. Otherwise, there would have to be a real reason to want to go.
What makes you think that the number of random fans it has in Salem would be greater anywhere else, besides Ohio? At least Salem locals know what the game is now, and have the experience of following it.
And what's so important about going from 5,000 to maybe 7,500 in attendance anyway? The key groups to impress are the teams and their fans. Anything else is gravy.
I can see why it would be fair to rotate it to some other more-westerly but still-centrally-located place similar to Salem, but in the Central Time Zone maybe ... but as someone mentioned, there is a pretty high standard that Salem has set that the new city would have to meet.
And for the record, attendance spiked to almost 10,000 when Bridgewater (1 hour away) was in it. Certainly having it closer to Mount Union could boost attendance numbers.
But look at the history of the game, too. It was tried in Kings Island, Ohio. It was in Bradenton, Fla. It was in Phenix City, Ala. The attendance numbers from those Stagg Bowls aren't dissimilar to the ones today, and D3 was better-attended overall in the 70s and 80s.
Jeez, K-Mack, wha'd you do, take yesterday off? I didn't expect to find 3 new pages of posts this morning. All very thoughtful for the most part. I'm not sure I can add anything to what has already been said. I probably put too much emphasis on the attendance issue; it's just that 5K just seems very small for a national championship game. I also may put too much emphasis on the weather and the location. I'll even say that suburban DFW doesn't sound like it would necessarily be better (I remember the 79 Cotton Bowl when Joe Montana almost froze to death from the cold and wind chill). Anyway, I expect my team to be in Salem sometime in the next 3 years, so I'll check it out then.
Article on the Stagg Bowl from the Roanoke Times touches on many of the issues we've been discussing.
http://www.roanoke.com/sports/college/wb/95931 (http://www.roanoke.com/sports/college/wb/95931)
Salem is a great setting for the game. Weather can be a little harsh, but most of the teams are from that type of climate anyway. The only drawback I see to the site is it is a little difficult to get to, at least it was for us from Texas.
allsky7 asks..... Question Jonny...If you did a combo type of weekend, how would you do the schedule of games? One Friday night, one Saturday afternoon, and one Saturday night? Would you rotate the schedule from year to year or would I-AA always get the prime time slot. Would ESPN be willing/able to broadcast all three games in such a short period of time. Your talking 10 plus hours of program time in one weekend. D3/D2/I-AA football versus D1 basketball.
You could absoutly have it fri/sat morning and sat night. And I dont think the prime timeslot matters. I mean Umass is playing tonight on espn. Now the d3 game is on tomorrow as the same time as some college basketball. Im not worried about the tv ratings. Those are going to be the same no matter when you have them for d3.
tonight Umass is on ESPN2 against NBA basketball on ESPN
Tomorrow d3 is on ESPN against Bradley/Iowa St basketball on ESPN2
I mean TV means very little as long as the games are on either 1 or 2
Quote from: janesvilleflash on December 15, 2006, 10:05:36 AM
The key word in this topic is BETTER. Of course, if you can find something better, you should do it. So far, I haven't seen anything that is a slam dunk for being better, so till then, Salem it is. Should always be looking though.
Fair enough.
TMerton,
No, I did not take yesterday off. I was at work, and I couldn't leave until I read the last NBA file. That's part of the job. However, everything else was done and there was like a quarter to go in the late game, so there you have it ... free time to go back and read and respond. You could get paid to do worse things!
If they can give us weather like today, stay in Virginia.
If it was in Minnesota or Wisconsin, I think there would be A LOT of the Johnny Nation there and at least the 5k+....
6,150 in attendence today. A great crowd, a great day, and a great town. What's not to like about Salem? Keep the game there.
Quote from: bushman on December 16, 2006, 09:26:58 PM
If they can give us weather like today, stay in Virginia.
That was unbelieveable, wasn't it.
I love the 4 p.m. kickoff, even though I was foolish enough to go home last night and not get there til 4 a.m.
Something about the championship game, and the fireworks, against the dark backdrop under the lights that give it a great feel.
Quote from: Devil Badger Gopher on December 16, 2006, 11:18:55 PM
If it was in Minnesota or Wisconsin, I think there would be A LOT of the Johnny Nation there and at least the 5k+....
I'm sure the Johnnies would represent, however there's a lot more to it than that.
Not the least of which is being within 500 miles of Mount Union. ;D
Mapquest, Collegeville to Alliance:
Total Est. Time: 14 hours, 6 minutes Total Est. Distance: 875.86 miles
Really? Is that right?
I've been away for a few days and wow this topic exploded!
Ralph,
One way to drive attendance if it was in a place like Coppell would be to have a HS championship game prior to the Stagg. Abilene had both of the 6-Man championship games at Shotwell on Saturday as a double header. One day game, one night. They advertised the games as come for one stay for both. So a 5A division 1 Championship game kicking off at 11am with the Stagg kicking off at 3pm... of course that would mean rescheduling a championship game day somewhere ;)
Both AAAAA Championship Games are scheduled for the Alamodome next weekend.
I don't think that linking to the Texas High School Championships will work.
Quote from: K-Mack on December 17, 2006, 09:32:08 PM
Quote from: bushman on December 16, 2006, 09:26:58 PM
If they can give us weather like today, stay in Virginia.
That was unbelieveable, wasn't it.
I love the 4 p.m. kickoff, even though I was foolish enough to go home last night and not get there til 4 a.m.
Something about the championship game, and the fireworks, against the dark backdrop under the lights that give it a great feel.
And don't forget the beautiful Blue Ridge Mountain sunset!! ;D
This Stagg Bowl will not be exceeded. The weather was unbelievable! The field was not perfect...but new turf will be in place next year. I taped the game at home and was disappointed to find the start of the game was missed because they interviewed Bobby Knight after a BBALL game and ran over a little. I find that a little disrespectful myself. Negative Karma for ESPN.
As I walked the parking lot during the pregame tailgating session, I noticed a few guys toting firearms in the parking lot. And they werent cops either. Seems there was a gun show at the Civic Center at the same time. I wonder which event was better attended. ;D Do you think there is tailgating at gun shows?
From talking to the locals at the mall, Salem wants to retain the STAGG BOWL very badly. But surprisingly not that many locals seem to attend themselves. A group of about 5 young ladies sat right behind us, and my wife turned to speak to them, just to be friendly. She asked them which team they were rooting for. These girls thought it was the local highschool team playing that night and replied, "Salem of course." ........Oh Boy! ::) They left after the first quarter too. ::)
The effort is there. No real real reason to take the game away from them at this point. Maybe someday, not just yet.
Quote from: section13raiderfan on December 18, 2006, 05:23:38 PM
This Stagg Bowl will not be exceeded. The weather was unbelievable! The field was not perfect...but new turf will be in place next year. I taped the game at home and was disappointed to find the start of the game was missed because they interviewed Bobby Knight after a BBALL game and ran over a little. I find that a little disrespectful myself. Negative Karma for ESPN.
As I walked the parking lot during the pregame tailgating session, I noticed a few guys toting firearms in the parking lot. And they werent cops either. Seems there was a gun show at the Civic Center at the same time. I wonder which event was better attended. ;D Do you think there is tailgating at gun shows?
From talking to the locals at the mall, Salem wants to retain the STAGG BOWL very badly. But surprisingly not that many locals seem to attend themselves. A group of about 5 young ladies sat right behind us, and my wife turned to speak to them, just to be friendly. She asked them which team they were rooting for. These girls thought it was the local highschool team playing that night and replied, "Salem of course." ........Oh Boy! ::) They left after the first quarter too. ::)
The effort is there. No real real reason to take the game away from them at this point. Maybe someday, not just yet.
The Salem Spartans were NOT playing because they got whooped by the Amherst Lancers 3 weeks ago. ;D ;D
AMHERST LANCERS 2006 DIVISION 4 STATE CHAMPS!!! 8)
Quote from: section13raiderfan on December 18, 2006, 05:23:38 PM
This Stagg Bowl will not be exceeded. The weather was unbelievable! The field was not perfect...but new turf will be in place next year. I taped the game at home and was disappointed to find the start of the game was missed because they interviewed Bobby Knight after a BBALL game and ran over a little. I find that a little disrespectful myself. Negative Karma for ESPN.
As I walked the parking lot during the pregame tailgating session, I noticed a few guys toting firearms in the parking lot. And they werent cops either. Seems there was a gun show at the Civic Center at the same time. I wonder which event was better attended. ;D Do you think there is tailgating at gun shows?
From talking to the locals at the mall, Salem wants to retain the STAGG BOWL very badly. But surprisingly not that many locals seem to attend themselves. A group of about 5 young ladies sat right behind us, and my wife turned to speak to them, just to be friendly. She asked them which team they were rooting for. These girls thought it was the local highschool team playing that night and replied, "Salem of course." ........Oh Boy! ::) They left after the first quarter too. ::)
The effort is there. No real real reason to take the game away from them at this point. Maybe someday, not just yet.
The gunshow tailgating takes place AFTER the show. As a gun loving Virginia country boy....you buy the gun...go home and shoot it....put the gun away, and then have a golden beverage or two while sitting on the tailgate of a pickup truck. Any respectable gun owner knows that the golden nectar and guns don't mix. 8)
Instead of a series of games with D1A, D2, etc., how about another D3 all star game on Friday night? Surely with the huge number of schools in D3, we could support both the Aztec Bowl and a D3 All Star game.
Now you would entice even more D3 fans and family from around the country to come! You could even tie in a profesional combine for coaches to evaluate D3 players and get even more involved in the mix.
On my flight home from the Stagg Bowl, I sat next to an NCAA committee official and he said this is an idea that might be discussed. He also alluded to the larger potential for major companies to sponsor the game in a larger city such as Dallas/Fort Worth (Coppell is between the two cities and is where the Dallas Cowboys training facility is).
the d3 all star game is a good idea, I was thinking about a HS combine or all star game(s) the same weekend. Tack on a coaches conference and you'd almost have a d3 combine of sorts.
The likely Coppell venue?
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=185+West+Parkway+Blvd+-+Coppell,+Texas+75019&ie=UTF8&ll=32.976628,-96.995888&spn=0.020233,0.053558&om=1
Cap 12,000 turf
Quote from: roocru on December 18, 2006, 08:52:00 PM
Instead of a series of games with D1A, D2, etc., how about another D3 all star game on Friday night? Surely with the huge number of schools in D3, we could support both the Aztec Bowl and a D3 All Star game.
Now you would entice even more D3 fans and family from around the country to come! You could even tie in a profesional combine for coaches to evaluate D3 players and get even more involved in the mix.
On my flight home from the Stagg Bowl, I sat next to an NCAA committee official and he said this is an idea that might be discussed. He also alluded to the larger potential for major companies to sponsor the game in a larger city such as Dallas/Fort Worth (Coppell is between the two cities and is where the Dallas Cowboys training facility is).
roo...glad to see you made it home safely. Nice talking to you and your son Sat. I think the idea of an all star game has some potential. Giving that many more schools and their fans a reason to come to the Stagg Bowl sure couldn't hurt.
Quote from: roocru on December 18, 2006, 08:52:00 PM
Instead of a series of games with D1A, D2, etc., how about another D3 all star game on Friday night? Surely with the huge number of schools in D3, we could support both the Aztec Bowl and a D3 All Star game.
Now you would entice even more D3 fans and family from around the country to come! You could even tie in a profesional combine for coaches to evaluate D3 players and get even more involved in the mix.
On my flight home from the Stagg Bowl, I sat next to an NCAA committee official and he said this is an idea that might be discussed. He also alluded to the larger potential for major companies to sponsor the game in a larger city such as Dallas/Fort Worth (Coppell is between the two cities and is where the Dallas Cowboys training facility is).
Well Salem gets my vote for obvious reasons;however, if Coppell would get the bid I can fly with the best of 'em.
Hell, I was flyin' in Salem last weekend but that is a story for another day! :o
Quote from: section13raiderfan on December 18, 2006, 05:23:38 PM
This Stagg Bowl will not be exceeded. The weather was unbelievable! The field was not perfect...but new turf will be in place next year. I taped the game at home and was disappointed to find the start of the game was missed because they interviewed Bobby Knight after a BBALL game and ran over a little. I find that a little disrespectful myself. Negative Karma for ESPN.
As I walked the parking lot during the pregame tailgating session, I noticed a few guys toting firearms in the parking lot. And they werent cops either. Seems there was a gun show at the Civic Center at the same time. I wonder which event was better attended. ;D Do you think there is tailgating at gun shows?
From talking to the locals at the mall, Salem wants to retain the STAGG BOWL very badly. But surprisingly not that many locals seem to attend themselves. A group of about 5 young ladies sat right behind us, and my wife turned to speak to them, just to be friendly. She asked them which team they were rooting for. These girls thought it was the local highschool team playing that night and replied, "Salem of course." ........Oh Boy! ::) They left after the first quarter too. ::)
The effort is there. No real real reason to take the game away from them at this point. Maybe someday, not just yet.
I sat next to a local--did so last year as well--and the year before that--although I think that the interest in the game in Salem is somewhat limited, I have always found the local fans of football to be excited that the game is in the Valley--of course the year we played a valley team the interest was much higher--maybe next year we can take on Bridgewater again--how about Emory and Henry? or maybe JMU ;D ;D
Quote from: theaprof on December 18, 2006, 09:43:01 PM
Quote from: section13raiderfan on December 18, 2006, 05:23:38 PM
This Stagg Bowl will not be exceeded. The weather was unbelievable! The field was not perfect...but new turf will be in place next year. I taped the game at home and was disappointed to find the start of the game was missed because they interviewed Bobby Knight after a BBALL game and ran over a little. I find that a little disrespectful myself. Negative Karma for ESPN.
As I walked the parking lot during the pregame tailgating session, I noticed a few guys toting firearms in the parking lot. And they werent cops either. Seems there was a gun show at the Civic Center at the same time. I wonder which event was better attended. ;D Do you think there is tailgating at gun shows?
From talking to the locals at the mall, Salem wants to retain the STAGG BOWL very badly. But surprisingly not that many locals seem to attend themselves. A group of about 5 young ladies sat right behind us, and my wife turned to speak to them, just to be friendly. She asked them which team they were rooting for. These girls thought it was the local highschool team playing that night and replied, "Salem of course." ........Oh Boy! ::) They left after the first quarter too. ::)
The effort is there. No real real reason to take the game away from them at this point. Maybe someday, not just yet.
I sat next to a local--did so last year as well--and the year before that--although I think that the interest in the game in Salem is somewhat limited, I have always found the local fans of football to be excited that the game is in the Valley--of course the year we played a valley team the interest was much higher--maybe next year we can take on Bridgewater again--how about Emory and Henry? or maybe JMU ;D ;D
JMU huh......then maybe flush could get his 31 points spread prediction right. ::) As good as JMU has been in recent years...not sure I still wouldn't take MU and 31 points. ;D ;D
Sorry that I cannot find any internet pictures of the Coppell Stadium.
The Coppell Independent School District does not have pictures of their facilties (that I can find).
RT:
Are these what you're looking for?
outside:
http://www.shwsports.com/big/coppell1.jpg
and the inside:
http://www.shwsports.com/big/coppell2.jpg
Quote from: repete on December 18, 2006, 11:01:48 PM
RT:
Are these what you're looking for?
outside:
http://www.shwsports.com/big/coppell1.jpg
and the inside:
http://www.shwsports.com/big/coppell2.jpg
Thanks repete! +1! Those are they. You are looking at the West (Home) stands from the northwest on the outside, and across the field to the home stands from the northeast on the inside.
Use the link I posted and click on "Satelite" for an aerial view.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=185+West+Parkway+Blvd+-+Coppell,+Texas+75019&ie=UTF8&ll=32.976628,-96.995888&spn=0.020233,0.053558&om=1
Quote from: repete on December 18, 2006, 11:01:48 PM
RT:
Are these what you're looking for?
outside:
http://www.shwsports.com/big/coppell1.jpg
and the inside:
http://www.shwsports.com/big/coppell2.jpg
Stadium looks great! Hmmm..... But,,,, wouldn't this location require an extra flight for Mt. Union every year? (he,he,) ::)
This also brings up a good question, when was the last time Mt. Union had to fly somewhere? They are the John Maddens of D3 Football! :o
Quote from: cwru70 on December 18, 2006, 11:19:30 PM
Use the link I posted and click on "Satelite" for an aerial view.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=185+West+Parkway+Blvd+-+Coppell,+Texas+75019&ie=UTF8&ll=32.976628,-96.995888&spn=0.020233,0.053558&om=1
Thanks cwru70! Just like it appears out the left window as you are landing on the Southbound runway (Is that runway "18"?) flying into DFW! :)
Something tells me that the d3 powers within the NCAA have a huge east coast bias. I dont see them putting a chamionship game in Texas anytime soon (or california for that matter)
I was on the field in pre-game warm-ups and want to add my 2 cents to the comments about the Salem turf this year. It was in great PLAYING shape. It might have not LOOKED pretty with a few bare spots, but it was dry and tight. A very fast track.
Now if it would have been raining then it would have been a complete mesh, but this was one of the best playing surface conditions MUC has ever had in Salem.
And for those of you who want the Stagg Bowl moved, you obviously haven't ever been to Salem for a Stagg Bowl. The City does a great job in all facets and that stadium tucked up in the mountains is a perfect setting for small college football. The town of Salem and the stadium itself reminds me of the best small college towns I've traveled to.
Quote from: Jonny Utah on December 19, 2006, 10:35:40 AM
Something tells me that the d3 powers within the NCAA have a huge east coast bias. I dont see them putting a chamionship game in Texas anytime soon (or california for that matter)
I wouldn't call it a bias - that's just where the teams are!
I haven't actually counted, but I'd imagine something around 85% of d3 schools are east of the Mississippi (and if you add the St. Louis schools, Iowa and Minnesota, it's probably over 90%).
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on December 19, 2006, 11:41:15 AM
Quote from: Jonny Utah on December 19, 2006, 10:35:40 AM
Something tells me that the d3 powers within the NCAA have a huge east coast bias. I dont see them putting a chamionship game in Texas anytime soon (or california for that matter)
I wouldn't call it a bias - that's just where the teams are!
I haven't actually counted, but I'd imagine something around 85% of d3 schools are east of the Mississippi (and if you add the St. Louis schools, Iowa and Minnesota, it's probably over 90%).
Right, but I think you could still call that a bias....
As you're no doubt aware, a MAJOR consideration is $$$. The NCAA hates to fly in bball teams, much less fball teams! They're gonna go with the best location that still minimizes the likelihood of air travel. SW PA or SE OH might be even better for the air travel, but probably not by enough to overcome the advantages of Salem.
Yea, I see that 1-AA game was sold out. I wonder how much they made there off of ticket sales and concessions inside the stadium. (plus all those t-shirts they always try to sell at NCAA playoff games)
Given the NCAA's seeming reluctance to send any team to Texas, the Texas bid seems doomed. ;)
Quote from: cwru70 on December 19, 2006, 06:35:24 PM
Given the NCAA's seeming reluctance to send any team to Texas, the Texas bid seems doomed. ;)
Irony, Poignancy, Humor, Satire. Those are the first four (polite) words that I could think of. :-\
+1!
Arent there so few teams in D3 even close to Texas that their own teams have to fly to regular season games? Thats what a Trinity fan once told me. I say we move it to Vegas. Sure the game would be far away, but the airfare would always be relatively cheap. But seriously folks.....if you cant top Salem....dont move it. Facilities wise and organizational wise we in Ohio can compete with Salem. Weatherwise..........well......probably not.
I hinted at this earlier when I mentioned MAJOR cororate sponsors. American Airlines is based in Dallas. If corporate sponsorship included some real breaks in airfare, then that would not be an issue.
Maybe they would contribute for an "American Airlines Texas Sub-regional"
Quote from: Jonny Utah on December 19, 2006, 03:29:07 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on December 19, 2006, 11:41:15 AM
Quote from: Jonny Utah on December 19, 2006, 10:35:40 AM
Something tells me that the d3 powers within the NCAA have a huge east coast bias. I dont see them putting a chamionship game in Texas anytime soon (or california for that matter)
I wouldn't call it a bias - that's just where the teams are!
I haven't actually counted, but I'd imagine something around 85% of d3 schools are east of the Mississippi (and if you add the St. Louis schools, Iowa and Minnesota, it's probably over 90%).
Right, but I think you could still call that a bias....
Yeah,
There are 16 schools west of the Rockies of 234 total ... add about 10 each in Iowa, Texas and Minnesota and 4 in Missouri, and there's your West "Coast."
Funny though, D3 has huge bases in the Northeast, mid-Atlantic and Midwest ... But Illinois, Ohio and Wisconsin (about 20 schools each) are far from "East Coast." I would never even refer to them as the "East."
It makes me wonder if the term "East Coast Bias" just sounds like something cool to say.
Time Zone bias might be a more legitimate beef, but in D3, the so-called East is where the schools are. And while you might be able to call that a "bias" if you wanted to nitpick, the inference in the word "bias" is that it's somehow unfair, but it doesn't seem to be.
Hey, MLB has a team in Canada. Maybe we should make sure Medicine Hat gets the World Series every once in a while!
Quote from: roocru on December 19, 2006, 11:02:18 PM
I hinted at this earlier when I mentioned MAJOR cororate sponsors. American Airlines is based in Dallas. If corporate sponsorship included some real breaks in airfare, then that would not be an issue.
Umm, what would be in it for AA? They are already running their planes at record high occupancy rates and able to raise their fares accordingly. Not like they'd get a huge amount of PR from being the Official Sponsor of the Division III Championship, either. Nice dream, tho, but AA makes their money selling last-second fares which cost MORE, not less.
sec13raider - what that Trinity fan told you only applied to TU, which plays in a conference which at the time had no other Texas-based FB schools. The ASC's Texas FB schools all bus back and forth for games.
By the way,
Lots more Day-after-the-Stagg-Bowl love here on the Daily Dose (http://www.d3football.com/dailydose/?p=293).
In case anyone feels like this thread isn't covering all of the bases. :D
Quote from: Ron Boerger (BfB) on December 20, 2006, 12:06:44 AM
Quote from: roocru on December 19, 2006, 11:02:18 PM
I hinted at this earlier when I mentioned MAJOR cororate sponsors. American Airlines is based in Dallas. If corporate sponsorship included some real breaks in airfare, then that would not be an issue.
Umm, what would be in it for AA? They are already running their planes at record high occupancy rates and able to raise their fares accordingly. Not like they'd get a huge amount of PR from being the Official Sponsor of the Division III Championship, either. Nice dream, tho, but AA makes their money selling last-second fares which cost MORE, not less.
sec13raider - what that Trinity fan told you only applied to TU, which plays in a conference which at the time had no other Texas-based FB schools. The ASC's Texas FB schools all bus back and forth for games.
That was my thought too Ron. What would AA get in return for their $ spent? Anybody know what kind of TV ratings the Stagg Bowl generally gets?
Hey....just had a great idea. :o Perhaps Mount Union should pony up some sponsorship $!!! ;D ;D
Quote from: K-Mack on December 20, 2006, 12:03:18 AM
Quote from: Jonny Utah on December 19, 2006, 03:29:07 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on December 19, 2006, 11:41:15 AM
Quote from: Jonny Utah on December 19, 2006, 10:35:40 AM
Something tells me that the d3 powers within the NCAA have a huge east coast bias. I dont see them putting a chamionship game in Texas anytime soon (or california for that matter)
I wouldn't call it a bias - that's just where the teams are!
I haven't actually counted, but I'd imagine something around 85% of d3 schools are east of the Mississippi (and if you add the St. Louis schools, Iowa and Minnesota, it's probably over 90%).
Right, but I think you could still call that a bias....
Yeah,
There are 16 schools west of the Rockies of 234 total ... add about 10 each in Iowa, Texas and Minnesota and 4 in Missouri, and there's your West "Coast."
Funny though, D3 has huge bases in the Northeast, mid-Atlantic and Midwest ... But Illinois, Ohio and Wisconsin (about 20 schools each) are far from "East Coast." I would never even refer to them as the "East."
It makes me wonder if the term "East Coast Bias" just sounds like something cool to say.
Time Zone bias might be a more legitimate beef, but in D3, the so-called East is where the schools are. And while you might be able to call that a "bias" if you wanted to nitpick, the inference in the word "bias" is that it's somehow unfair, but it doesn't seem to be.
Hey, MLB has a team in Canada. Maybe we should make sure Medicine Hat gets the World Series every once in a while!
Yea I also kind of got the impression that the higher ups in the NCAA came from eastern liberal arts schools more often than not.
Quote
Quote from: allsky7 on December 20, 2006, 09:46:13 AM
Quote from: Ron Boerger (BfB) on December 20, 2006, 12:06:44 AM
Quote from: roocru on December 19, 2006, 11:02:18 PM
I hinted at this earlier when I mentioned MAJOR cororate sponsors. American Airlines is based in Dallas. If corporate sponsorship included some real breaks in airfare, then that would not be an issue.
Umm, what would be in it for AA? They are already running their planes at record high occupancy rates and able to raise their fares accordingly. Not like they'd get a huge amount of PR from being the Official Sponsor of the Division III Championship, either. Nice dream, tho, but AA makes their money selling last-second fares which cost MORE, not less.
sec13raider - what that Trinity fan told you only applied to TU, which plays in a conference which at the time had no other Texas-based FB schools. The ASC's Texas FB schools all bus back and forth for games.
That was my thought too Ron. What would AA get in return for their $ spent? Anybody know what kind of TV ratings the Stagg Bowl generally gets?
Hey....just had a great idea. :o Perhaps Mount Union should pony up some sponsorship $!!! ;D ;D
Mount Union sells a highlight tape of each season when its all over with. That has to bring in a zillion buckeroos alone!
Then American airlines could paint the MUC purple bird mascot on the tails of their planes. Theres another gazillion!
Then there is the Larry Kehres tell all autobiography! Unprecedented riches!
Marketing is where its at! Im dizzy with the possibilities. :D
Another good "I love the Stagg Bowl" post from the blog, that might get lost in the long, drawn out arguing:
QuoteGBill$ Says:
The 20th of December, 2006 at 6:46 pm
After having attended the Stagg Bowl 9 (2005) years after I stopped playing, I still was amazed by the entire Stagg Bowl scene. Years after playing, all I could think about was how cool/fun/amazing it would have been to have played in that game.
That being said, I think it would be a great idea for college coaches to strongly encourage their players to attend the Stagg Bowl. You could even go as far as to raise funds for a bus ride out there. But, at the very least it's just an good, old fashioned road trip. I understand there are issues with all of my suggestions (West Coast players driving to the Stagg Bowl, limited funds for both students and institutions, etc.).
However, I can't imagine that any current player would not be totally inspired by being there. Not only by the scene, but, by the level of football that is played in that bowl. In other words, seeing what it takes.
And those guys still have a chance to train, improve, and most importanly....play.
At the very least, go to an in-region playoff game. I remember seeing MUC beat UW-Lacrosse at Camp Randall (UW-Madison) AFTER my senior season. My team and I could have benefitted greatly from going to a playoff game before that, but, I am not going to go all woulda/coulda/shoulda on you.
And on a side note, that game is why I have never and never will hate on MUC. They had a ton of fans in the stands, 50 (maybe older) year old guys doing push-ups with the cheerleaders, and after the game the players shook hands and then all the MUC players went and jumped in a huge snowbank on the sidelines. And it wasn't even a "in your face" deal. They were just enjoying the moment.
Now, that's what I call understanding the game.
Quote from: Jonny Utah on December 20, 2006, 04:23:13 PM
Yea I also kind of got the impression that the higher ups in the NCAA came from eastern liberal arts schools more often than not.
Myles Brand...President of the NCAA.....RPI grad. Eastern yes. Liberal Arts?....um, no
Quote from: Senor RedTackle on December 21, 2006, 09:44:13 AM
Quote from: Jonny Utah on December 20, 2006, 04:23:13 PM
Yea I also kind of got the impression that the higher ups in the NCAA came from eastern liberal arts schools more often than not.
Myles Brand...President of the NCAA.....RPI grad. Eastern yes. Liberal Arts?....um, no
what was his major....
Interesting blog post by Pat (http://www.d3football.com/dailydose/2007/06/14/the-texas-stagg-bowl-bid) and subsequent discussion, furthering this topic.
I like it in Salem VA. It is closer to where I am and I will get to see some good d3 football.
If I were to put it anywhere I would put it in Raven's Stadium. I know there will never be 72,000 fans there, but the stadium has played host to many other sporting events that many might not consider "major". Including state championships in football. The college and high school lacrosse championships. Let's not forget the annual Turkey Bowl between Calvert High School and Loyola High School and the Turkey Bowl of City vs Poly.
The first game mentioned is an 87 year tradition.
The second one I am going to assume is a 117 game tradition considering Poly leads the series 58-53-6.
So I say why not. I guess that means John Hopkins would be the host.
You haven't lived until you've seen 5,000 people in a 70,000 seat stadium.
It works for lacrosse. Not for this.
Keith - you mentioned that it probably won't be in Salem forever and I agree that it is good that other places are showing interest. However, one yearly destination has worked very well for the D-I college world series. Now, I know that the Stagg Bowl is not an event on the scale of the CWS but it shows a precedent of one location embracing a game and turning it into a destination/event. That is what Salem has done and it is what they do when they host other events. I was very impressed when my sister played in the D-III softball world series there.
Pat - great point about the big stadiums. That would be a horrible move. I can't help but think of the Metrodome during the last MIAC weekend of the season. Even 6-8 thousand makes it look pathetic.
I am not advocating it. I just threw it out there because it already plays host to events.
48,443 people attended D1 Men's Lacrosse championship 7th all time for a championship, behind 6 men's basketball championships
13,000 Fans for the two Turkey Bowls I mentioned. 13,000 might not seem like alot but for teams in MD. That is alot.
Baltimore is a football and lacrosse town. There might just be more than 5000 fans at a game. It would be nice.
right, but the 13,000 fans have big rooting interest in those teams. How many local fans show up to a Mary Hardin Baylor vs Linfield Stagg Bowl?
As for the lacrosse...the sport is taking off more than ever but it helped to have Johns Hopkins playing 5 miles from campus, no?
See Lax has always been popular where I came from, I think ever since ESPN has put it on thier programing and with it being played at these huge venues has really caused it to take off. John Hopkins helps a little bit but not 48,433. Also advertsing for the event started a year before. The same with Notre Dame playing Navy. They are selling tickets when the schedule was released the year before.
Pat-I haven't seen 5,000 fans in a 70,000 seat stadium. However I have seen 900 fans in 10,000 seat stadium (Greensboro home games) and 690 fans in 20,000 seat stadium (Greensboro vs Guilford at the Coliseum.) I think however there might be more closer to 1000 this year if it is still played there.)
What do I say about that "plenty of good seats still available"
Those lax championships are going to get 40,000+ no matter where they are today.
Quote from: PrideSportBBallGuy on June 19, 2007, 01:11:57 PM
What do I say about that "plenty of good seats still available"
And what I say is "not appropriate for the Stagg Bowl." :)
Quote from: realistic on June 19, 2007, 11:51:03 AM
Keith - you mentioned that it probably won't be in Salem forever and I agree that it is good that other places are showing interest. However, one yearly destination has worked very well for the D-I college world series. Now, I know that the Stagg Bowl is not an event on the scale of the CWS but it shows a precedent of one location embracing a game and turning it into a destination/event. That is what Salem has done and it is what they do when they host other events. I was very impressed when my sister played in the D-III softball world series there.
Well,
that's an interesting comparison with Omaha.
I don't know if you've read my previous posts on this board, but I've been pretty pro-Salem. I guess what I was saying is that I don't think it has to be in Salem forever, but you do have to find a site that is what Salem is (in terms of geography and with the perfect-size stadium) and does what Salem does (in terms of the volunteers it takes to put the event on, in terms of being embraced by the local community and media, etc.)
Someone made an interesting case for Canton ... except for the giant stadium, I could see that being a really competitive bid, if they ever made one.
The latest resurfacing of this topic, via the Stagg Bowl-week Daily Dose:
114. R24aider Says:
December 13th, 2007 at 10:18 am e
Current forecast for Saturday, 38 and Rain. I know Salem does an outstanding job, but I also think that MT and UWW deserve better than 38 and rain. These two teams have battled the elements for four weeks (esp. UWW) and now the biggest game of their football careers.... 38 and rain. The NCAA seems to do a good job saving money by scheduling the playoffs according to proximity, you would think they could take some of these savings and send the two finalists to Naples, or Arizona, or anywher warm. What about the poor parents, finally get to see their sons in the game of games and have to endure those horrible elements. I know the coaches and players will tell you they don't care, but it's the principle of it. The NCAA is sending horrible Michigan 8-4 to the Capital One bowl, and I would rather watch Mt and UWW anyday. Oh but they are DI. Kids are Kids DI or DIII and what a thrill it would be for our DIII kids to play somewhere like, maybe, Disneyworld. Good luck to Mount Union and Wisc. Whitewater. I know both teams will leave "it" on the field but most importantly I hope the Kids have a great time, especially the seniors.
115. Pat Coleman Says:
December 13th, 2007 at 10:41 am e
Ironic. What about the poor parents indeed? Not everyone is wealthy enough to drop money on a flight to FL or CA!
116. Raiderdude Says:
December 13th, 2007 at 11:44 am e
I am not sure on the logic there Pat. Most DIII schools are not state supported and thus the cost of tuition, etc. is much higher. If the parents can afford those costs, a plane trip, etc. should be also.
I have always wondered how so many can afford these package trips to travel to the south and west for the college bowl games. Money is made available if needed I suppose for the "experience".
I think the biggest difficulty most of us have is with the game schedule versus the holiday season events. Most of us work during the week and there are only so many weekends in December prior to Christmas. The game being on the 17th is placed directly in conflict with those other holiday activities with family, work, etc. Not saying ti needs changed but it does make it logistically difficult to balance all the needs. I, for one, have three other events scheduled for that morning and evening which makes the trip impossible.
In fact, our evening holiday party engagement starts at 7pm and I am showing up late so I don't miss the end of the game!
For what it's worth..............
119. D3Keith Says:
December 13th, 2007 at 1:07 pm e
The game belongs in Salem for several reasons:
1) The committee and the city give it the attention it deserves, and it gets better every year because they make an effort to add something, whether it be TV-quality lighting, instant replay and a giant video screen and now this year turf.
2) Discussing strictly proximity, most Division III teams are located in the Northeast, mid-Atlantic and northern Midwest. Salem is not only in driving distance for a majority of teams (though the West keeps sending teams, and that doesn't seem to work for them), its weather on game day closely approximates what you might find at a game elsewhere in D3 that day.
It might be nice to take a sunny vacation in conjunction with the Stagg Bowl, but you have to remember, we don't get two months to work on travel plans. Fans get 7 days, so team bus trips like the one UWW is sponsoring, or being within a day trip of the game site is important.
Asking people to get flights from Ohio or Wisconsin to some southern locale on 7 days notice would be quite a burden, much more than is necessary.
There are years, like UMHB vs. Linfeld, when everyone is stuck doing that. But it's no coincidence that the highest attendance by far in Salem's Stagg history was when Bridgewater (3 hrs) played Mount Union (driving distance, 6 hrs maybe?)
As far as the timing of the game during the holidays, how else are you gonna get 10 games and 5 weeks of playoffs in?
With all due respect, I don't believe you've thought this through as throroughly as the people who have planned this game for the past 15 years. They are not looking out for the fans who want to make their holiday parties and get a tan for Christmas as much they are for the student-athletes that could potentially play in the game.
120. D3Keith Says:
December 13th, 2007 at 1:25 pm e
Also, R24aider (I realize Raiderdude was half of those posts as well, but this one's for you):
The game has been played in Florida (Bradenton) and Alabama (Phenix City) as well as Kings Island Ohio (not a warm locale, but assuming that's the amusement park of the same name), and I don't get the sense (having done the knowledge on the history) that any of those places were a success, attendance-wise or in the attention they were able to give the game.
In Phenix City for instance, they used local officials crews that had not done Division III games all season ... you might think an SEC crew is better suited to do this game, but a D3 crew better knows the nuances of the D3 game and, it is the opinion of the NCAA director of championships that it's the officials' championship too, so they try to select a top-rated crew from around that isn't from a conference close to either team.
Also, I know it's cool to bash the NCAA, but come on ... I'm surprised you don't know this. The NCAA has nothing to do with sending anyone to any bowls, Capital One or otherwise. The NCAA administers the championships in every sport and divisions I-AA, II and III ... but since I-A refuses to have an actual championship, the bowls, individually owned corporations by the way, with CEOs and local business interests, are who picks up the tab for team travel and everything else associated with putting on a bowl.
I think you really knew that and just had a lapse.
I feel like we have this discussion about whether the game belongs in Salem a couple times a year. Wait, we do, so I set up a thread a long time ago to discuss it.
Should the Stagg Bowl find a better site or stay in Salem, Va.?: http://www.d3sports.com/post/index.php?topic=4975.0
You are entitled to your opinion, but I think you should familiarize yourself with all sides of the argument before forming it.
Its just an opinion but.....
I will probably never go to Salem, Virginia to see a Stagg Bowl that doesn't involve Ithaca. I would go to Florida and make a trip out of it.....
Maybe a balancing opinion then....
Even though I didn't have anything really invested in the teams, I started making the five-hour drive to the Stagg Bowl beginning with the 2004 game. Coming to those games helped me fall in love with the area around Salem: the mountains, the markets, the people.
And that led me make the decision to move to the Roanoke Valley this past March.
I'm not saying that's what everybody should or would do, but I think the atmosphere in Salem and the surrounding region is well worth the trip, and I had more interest in coming here than I would have to some of the hotter parts of the U.S.
I guess I wonder if it's worth resurfacing this discussion just because someone commenting on the blog has the oh-so-original idea to play the game elsewhere. Are we going to break a lot of new ground here?
Quote from: Jonny Utah on December 13, 2007, 03:03:10 PM
Its just an opinion but.....
I will probably never go to Salem, Virginia to see a Stagg Bowl that doesn't involve Ithaca. I would go to Florida and make a trip out of it.....
I would go if it were in florida, since I live here. However, I don't think I'd mind visiting Salem, Virginia either.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 13, 2007, 09:58:21 PM
I guess I wonder if it's worth resurfacing this discussion just because someone commenting on the blog has the oh-so-original idea to play the game elsewhere. Are we going to break a lot of new ground here?
I appreciate that you kept this discussion on the website as an archive or previous material. New viewers can read this and learn more about the reasons that the Stagg Bowl is in Salem. There is an incredible amount of collective history on these message boards and blogs, which can be searched by the curious.
Thank you for not deleting this thread.
No problem -- I'm OK with it staying around. Just not sure how much it needs to get bumped to the top.
Quote from: K-Mack on December 13, 2007, 01:31:39 PM
In Phenix City for instance, they used local officials crews that had not done Division III games all season ... you might think an SEC crew is better suited to do this game, but a D3 crew better knows the nuances of the D3 game and, it is the opinion of the NCAA director of championships that it's the officials' championship too, so they try to select a top-rated crew from around that isn't from a conference close to either team.
But this doesn't always work.
I've seen Staggs in Phenix City AND Salem ... and no crews come close to those Pa. yokels in 2003 ...
(fighting urge to rant further)
should the stagg b moved............... no
salem was awesome
the weather was.... uh... well....
anyway...no... if it is moved then the ODAC folks might not b there...and they need to b there
maybe the most fun i have ever had watching a ball game...and i tail gaited at auburn-alabama, uga, florida, ...all over sec, huntingdon... gsc (D-2), and sunbelt...
i mean ... where else r u gonna leave the tailgaiting (with stone station's awesome food) look for a place to use the rest room...and walk in on a gun show....
the boy and i got to see a great game, eat great food, meet real nice folks, and....see some AR-15's and Glocks for sale....all in one afternoon
and within walking distance of our car
with out a doubt......leave it in salem, Va
keep the faith
While Pep has never witnessed a Stagg Bowl in person, Pep made a pit stop in Salem en route back to Alfred from Charlotte, NC earlier this year to look over the Stagg Bowl stadium. Pep was happy to see the field turf being installed and was impressed with the facililty, parking, etc. and cannot imagine a more hospitable, accommodating city.
Pep is looking forward to the day when one of those purple teams on the field will be from Alfred and the AU Pep Band will be in the stands leading the Saxon cheers!
On Saxon Warriors!
Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 13, 2007, 09:58:21 PM
I guess I wonder if it's worth resurfacing this discussion just because someone commenting on the blog has the oh-so-original idea to play the game elsewhere. Are we going to break a lot of new ground here?
Might not be new to you, Sir Reads-It-All, but I think kicking up a discussion we've already had saves us the trouble of rehashing all the same points we've already made on the blog and elsewhere.
If it's new to someone else, it might well be worth their time reading from the beginning, or wherever they choose to start.
In other words, the thread is kicked up
precisely because there is little new ground to break.
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 14, 2007, 12:24:24 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 13, 2007, 09:58:21 PM
I guess I wonder if it's worth resurfacing this discussion just because someone commenting on the blog has the oh-so-original idea to play the game elsewhere. Are we going to break a lot of new ground here?
I appreciate that you kept this discussion on the website as an archive or previous material. New viewers can read this and learn more about the reasons that the Stagg Bowl is in Salem. There is an incredible amount of collective history on these message boards and blogs, which can be searched by the curious.
Thank you for not deleting this thread.
Agreed.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 14, 2007, 12:40:55 AM
No problem -- I'm OK with it staying around. Just not sure how much it needs to get bumped to the top.
The smart aleck's answer:
If you stop posting on it, it would stop getting bumped up :)
The thinking man's answer:
If people weren't aware that this discussion has already taken place, in-depth, and they were posting about it not here, but on the blog, then I think the least we can do is bump it up and point them in the direction of this thread, since it clearly wasn't being found when it was buried among other threads.
The Post Police are always tryin' to keep a brother-thread down.
I am glad this discussion has resurfaced, I missed it the first time around. I also had the opportunity to STOP AND SEE the complex this summer while my son and I were looking at colleges. As were were traveling through Roanoke, we made a point of stopping just to see the stadium and also walked inside the Civic Center next door where they play the Division III men's basketball championship.Both were very impressive. As a matter of fact, television doesn't do the stadium justice for those who have never seen it in person. I guess you could find a warmer climate location or a bigger stadium but I think the game belongs in Salem for as long as Salem wants to host it. They have earned the right!
I was at the game last year, and I thought everything was great - except seeing the painted dirt on the field. That little item appears to have been addressed very nicely this year.
I do beleive that there are probably other locations that could do as good, or almost as good, a job as Salem. Would be tough to replicate the Stone Station before the game, though. That kind of thing takes a while to mature. Being from Wisconsin, the distance is a tough nut to swallow, and I think that would true for all people from Iowa, Minnesota, Illinois, as well as Wisconsin (throw Missouri, Texas, etc in there, too). So I think potential could be there for top-shelf handling and strong attendance (beyond participating teams) at the event somewhere further west like maybe Indiana or western Ohio.
I don't know of a city or a facility that fits, though - at least right now. Let's face it - Salem has raised the bar to a very high level, and the game should stay there. Please don't let up, Salem!
So there you have it, even the KitchenSink has been thrown into the discussion! ::)
Quote from: KitchenSink on December 19, 2007, 07:56:59 PM
I was at the game last year, and I thought everything was great - except seeing the painted dirt on the field. That little item appears to have been addressed very nicely this year.
I do beleive that there are probably other locations that could do as good, or almost as good, a job as Salem.
Yes, I'd forgotten about the dirt until I watched the '06 and '05 videos, but the turf was top-notch. Fixed that right up.
As I have said before on this thread, other places could host ... but it takes a very dedicated base of workers and volunteers to pull this thing off, and Salem has almost 15 years of experience now.
Salem also never sits on its laurels, they are always coming through with upgrades to the site and game experience.
K-Mack, that's the impression I have. Anyone who attends at Salem gets a great opportunity to enjoy an out-of-this-world experience. I'm glad I brought my teenage son to share it with me. (He enjoyed it, too. No, really, he told me.) :)
With the new UMHB stadium, would they try to put together a proposal to host the Stagg?
Quote from: ADL70 on March 30, 2011, 08:23:52 PM
With the new UMHB stadium, would they try to put together a proposal to host the Stagg?
Once potential recruits see that stadium, I'm more wondering if UMHB will be IN the Stagg Bowl! They've been in the group just below UMU and UWW for several years now - that stadium just might get them into the 'upper crust'.
I wonder if teams like NCC, Wesley, St. Thomas, Linfield, etc., have an answer for THAT escalation?
The problem w/UMHB hosting a Stagg is that it's just so darned far from 95% of D3. IF there's not a Texas team playing, will folks down here turn out to support schools they don't know as well as the folks in Salem?
I really have to wonder if a school making a $25 million investment in a football stadium truly wants to stay in D3. The whole idea of spending so much on a single sport - especially at a school with a relatively modest endowment like UMHB - doesn't align well with the classic D3 philosophy.
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 30, 2011, 08:33:43 PM
I wonder if teams like NCC, Wesley, St. Thomas, Linfield, etc., have an answer for THAT escalation?
UMHB's new digs will look great. Maybe the new facilities will help develop quarterbacks that can accurately throw the forward pass? ;)
I feel like Salem is a wonderful site for the National Championship! I mean its true the stadium is modest and the climate in Virginia is far from perfect.... notably in December. But as it has been said, the things Salem does "OFF the field" really make it a desirable event to attend. (For reasons other than the obvious.)
Quote from: Ron Boerger on March 30, 2011, 10:50:31 PM
I really have to wonder if a school making a $25 million investment in a football stadium truly wants to stay in D3. The whole idea of spending so much on a single sport - especially at a school with a relatively modest endowment like UMHB - doesn't align well with the classic D3 philosophy.
I agree with the above. If this stadium gets done I'd look for UMHB to jump in the not too distant future.
Quote from: TGP on March 31, 2011, 11:28:50 AM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on March 30, 2011, 10:50:31 PM
I really have to wonder if a school making a $25 million investment in a football stadium truly wants to stay in D3. The whole idea of spending so much on a single sport - especially at a school with a relatively modest endowment like UMHB - doesn't align well with the classic D3 philosophy.
I agree with the above. If this stadium gets done I'd look for UMHB to jump in the not too distant future.
They can't stand not playing McMurry. :)
Quote from: Gray Fox on March 31, 2011, 12:29:48 PM
Quote from: TGP on March 31, 2011, 11:28:50 AM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on March 30, 2011, 10:50:31 PM
I really have to wonder if a school making a $25 million investment in a football stadium truly wants to stay in D3. The whole idea of spending so much on a single sport - especially at a school with a relatively modest endowment like UMHB - doesn't align well with the classic D3 philosophy.
I agree with the above. If this stadium gets done I'd look for UMHB to jump in the not too distant future.
They can't stand not playing McMurry. :)
I don't think that we have beaten them in 21st century.
Now HSU? That goes back to the Kennedy Administration. :-\ (That is probably one of the reasons that HSU stopped football back in the 1960's. ;) )
Quote from: wildcat11 on March 31, 2011, 12:21:20 AM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 30, 2011, 08:33:43 PM
I wonder if teams like NCC, Wesley, St. Thomas, Linfield, etc., have an answer for THAT escalation?
UMHB's new digs will look great. Maybe the new facilities will help develop quarterbacks that can accurately throw the forward pass? ;)
Maybe, but I bet it helps keep the running back machine in place. ;)
Quote from: TGP on March 31, 2011, 11:28:50 AM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on March 30, 2011, 10:50:31 PM
I really have to wonder if a school making a $25 million investment in a football stadium truly wants to stay in D3. The whole idea of spending so much on a single sport - especially at a school with a relatively modest endowment like UMHB - doesn't align well with the classic D3 philosophy.
I agree with the above. If this stadium gets done I'd look for UMHB to jump in the not too distant future.
I can't completely shake that feeling either, but over on the ASC board the Chancellor of the school is saying that's not in the plans. In fact all I have ever heard from anyone who would know is that the plan is to stay D3. However, it would be funny if UMHB went D2 and ended up in the same conference as McM.
Quote from: TGP on March 31, 2011, 11:28:50 AM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on March 30, 2011, 10:50:31 PM
I really have to wonder if a school making a $25 million investment in a football stadium truly wants to stay in D3. The whole idea of spending so much on a single sport - especially at a school with a relatively modest endowment like UMHB - doesn't align well with the classic D3 philosophy.
I agree with the above. If this stadium gets done I'd look for UMHB to jump in the not too distant future.
A few things to note here...
Unfortunately, $25million isn't all that much of an investment anymore to put up a structure of any kind. A football stadium, like a science lab, is all part of what attracts students to a campus. Gone are the days a school could just roll in some aluminum bleachers and call it good enough.
That drawing makes the stadium look a bit bigger than what the final product will really look like. From pics that I saw, that lower level is 11 rows and the stated capacity is 8k - 10k. That isn't all that much bigger than most D3 schools. It would compare to most WIAC stadiums.
We could be seeing a "keeping up with the Jones" here. With the recent anouncement that McMurry was moving to D2, maybe UMHB will want to follow.
As to the topic at hand...I think Salem has done a great job of hosting the Stagg Bowl. It would be great to keep the game there. But...it might also be fun to see the Stagg Bowl move for the same reasons it was fun to see the FCS championship game recently move from the eastern US to the Dallas area. The east coast FCS fans were in a tizzy. The majority of schools and fans were on the east coast...you can't move the game away from our area...Texas won't care about small college football...on and on. In the end, the fans that attended the game thought Frisco, TX and Pizza Hut Park put on a great show and the newer stadium looked great on TV compared to the older facility in Chatanooga that previously had hosted the game.
It might not be a bad idea to rotate the game every 5 years or so around the regions to increase awareness of the Stagg Bowl around the nation.
Quote from: doolittledog on April 01, 2011, 08:24:56 AM
Quote from: TGP on March 31, 2011, 11:28:50 AM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on March 30, 2011, 10:50:31 PM
I really have to wonder if a school making a $25 million investment in a football stadium truly wants to stay in D3. The whole idea of spending so much on a single sport - especially at a school with a relatively modest endowment like UMHB - doesn't align well with the classic D3 philosophy.
I agree with the above. If this stadium gets done I'd look for UMHB to jump in the not too distant future.
A few things to note here...
Unfortunately, $25million isn't all that much of an investment anymore to put up a structure of any kind. A football stadium, like a science lab, is all part of what attracts students to a campus. Gone are the days a school could just roll in some aluminum bleachers and call it good enough.
That drawing makes the stadium look a bit bigger than what the final product will really look like. From pics that I saw, that lower level is 11 rows and the stated capacity is 8k - 10k. That isn't all that much bigger than most D3 schools. It would compare to most WIAC stadiums.
We could be seeing a "keeping up with the Jones" here. With the recent anouncement that McMurry was moving to D2, maybe UMHB will want to follow.
As to the topic at hand...I think Salem has done a great job of hosting the Stagg Bowl. It would be great to keep the game there. But...it might also be fun to see the Stagg Bowl move for the same reasons it was fun to see the FCS championship game recently move from the eastern US to the Dallas area. The east coast FCS fans were in a tizzy. The majority of schools and fans were on the east coast...you can't move the game away from our area...Texas won't care about small college football...on and on. In the end, the fans that attended the game thought Frisco, TX and Pizza Hut Park put on a great show and the newer stadium looked great on TV compared to the older facility in Chatanooga that previously had hosted the game.
It might not be a bad idea to rotate the game every 5 years or so around the regions to increase awareness of the Stagg Bowl around the nation.
I am extremely skeptical that any of the places that you mentioned will be able to enlist the huge cadre of volunteers and community support that makes the Stagg Bowl so successful!
Frisco Tx? Community support for a D-III event? Never happen!!! (with 3 exclamation points!!!) Look at how much work goes into Dallas Cup, arguably the premier Youth Soccer tournament in the World if not Top 5!
As someone who has had the privilege of attending most of the recent Staggs, I vote for "ANY PLACE FRICKIN' WARM"! How about the Bahamas? They are very big on tourism, and you can get a fairly cheap flight there. 8-)
Quote from: skunks_sidekick on April 02, 2011, 09:42:04 AM
As someone who has had the privilege of attending most of the recent Staggs, I vote for "ANY PLACE FRICKIN' WARM"! How about the Bahamas? They are very big on tourism, and you can get a fairly cheap flight there. 8-)
I think it would be a little weird to have our national championship game held in a foreign country.
Another site other than Salem would IMHO, have to more several advantages over Salem. I agree that a warmer climate location would be nice, but travel costs, fan support and city support are huge factors.
You know as I read the comments on here and the arguments about where the stagg bowl should be I got to thinking....why not the west coast? Im obviously a Texas kid and im not ignorant enough to think that it would be a total pain in the *** for the participating teams to travel but I think it could sell the D-III game in a new market. California kids are very much more likely to go to community colleges and jucos then transfer. Why not take a national championship game and put it in their backyard? The game could show them that we arent such a bad option.
Not to mention the warmer weather, nice destination, and with cities with populations like San Diego, San Fran, LA ect. Volunteers would not be an issue IMO.
I think it continues to be an issue of fan travel, not just team travel.
I think another interesting solution could be regional playoff games. What I mean is fixed locations for the national semi-final and quarterfinals?
This will undeniably get negative attention but I have never been a fan of home playoff games.
Quote from: etbu27 on April 05, 2011, 09:52:21 PM
I think another interesting solution could be regional playoff games. What I mean is fixed locations for the national semi-final and quarterfinals?
This will undeniably get negative attention but I have never been a fan of home playoff games.
:)
How do you pay for it? You have increased the number of plane flights by as many as 6.
For those who have seen the numbers, just how much more expensive is a plane flight trip for the NCAA?
Quote from: Ralph Turner on April 05, 2011, 09:57:49 PM
Quote from: etbu27 on April 05, 2011, 09:52:21 PM
I think another interesting solution could be regional playoff games. What I mean is fixed locations for the national semi-final and quarterfinals?
This will undeniably get negative attention but I have never been a fan of home playoff games.
:)
How do you pay for it? You have increased the number of plane flights by as many as 6.
For those who have seen the numbers, just how much more expensive is a plane flight trip for the NCAA?
Not to mention the possible embarassment of a semi-final game with 600 fans. :P
since i have attended the last 5 for no other reason than to hang out with great peopel, stone station, and enjoy a good game, i dont see any reason to change it. warmer would be nice, but those of us who were there 2 years ago in the blizzard had a ball and will have stories to tell for years to come, dont get them in warm climate. it is easy to get to from most of d3 and the city wants it which from what i hear is a huge advantage and they do a great job. moving it just to move it makes no sense to me.
Quote from: wesleydad on April 06, 2011, 06:56:43 PM
warmer would be nice, but those of us who were there 2 years ago in the blizzard had a ball and will have stories to tell for years to come, dont get them in warm climate.
I second that! :) +1
Quote from: Ryan Tipps on April 06, 2011, 07:45:26 PM
Quote from: wesleydad on April 06, 2011, 06:56:43 PM
warmer would be nice, but those of us who were there 2 years ago in the blizzard had a ball and will have stories to tell for years to come, dont get them in warm climate.
I second that! :) +1
Once we finally got there it was great!
Quote from: skunks_sidekick on April 02, 2011, 09:42:04 AM
As someone who has had the privilege of attending most of the recent Staggs, I vote for "ANY PLACE FRICKIN' WARM"! How about the Bahamas? They are very big on tourism, and you can get a fairly cheap flight there. 8-)
Better give the winners more time to make arrangements if it goes anywhere extreme (And given the handful of West Coast and Southern teams I'd consider anything west of Iowa and south of North Carolina extreme)
Quote from: wesleydad on April 06, 2011, 06:56:43 PM
since i have attended the last 5 for no other reason than to hang out with great peopel, stone station, and enjoy a good game, i dont see any reason to change it. warmer would be nice, but those of us who were there 2 years ago in the blizzard had a ball and will have stories to tell for years to come, dont get them in warm climate. it is easy to get to from most of d3 and the city wants it which from what i hear is a huge advantage and they do a great job. moving it just to move it makes no sense to me.
Good point on the blizzard. I've been every year since '97 and that trip -- beyond just the game -- really stands out.
Re: a lot of the other recent comments, it's not Salem's right to have the game. It comes up for bid every 2 years and if a city felt strongly enough and put together a compelling argument/package/group of volunteers, it would have a shot.
I'd be opposed to fixed sites for other playoff games. The on-campus playoff game is a) the closest approximation of a regular season game and b) the best way to guarantee a good crowd, except for during Thanksgiving break. The Week 2 crowds are always terrible.
I think the Cramton Bowl in Montgomery, AL would be ideal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cramton_Bowl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cramton_Bowl)
Quote from: panthersfan on July 07, 2011, 01:46:30 PM
I think the Cramton Bowl in Montgomery, AL would be ideal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cramton_Bowl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cramton_Bowl)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cramton_Bowl_baseball.jpg
Look at the dimensions to left field! That is unbelievable.
I have driven past Cramton, several times. Sorry, but it would not be my first choice to a place to which the Stagg might move.
I think 24,000 is too big for this event.
I don't know if Camton is a baseball facility converted to football or a football facility converted for baseball. But either way who wants to play a football game on a baseball diamond?
Quote from: badgerwarhawk on July 07, 2011, 02:24:21 PM
I don't know if Camton is a baseball facility converted to football or a football facility converted for baseball. But either way who wants to play a football game on a baseball diamond?
Here is the current appearance of Cramton as provided by the links that pantherfan gave.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Facilities2_full.jpg
It is actually appears to be a very nice facility, and the upgrades that they have made in the last 3-5 years are a big improvement.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on July 07, 2011, 02:06:55 PM
I think 24,000 is too big for this event.
Maybe they could fill some of those seats if Birmingham-Southern made the championship. ;)
Quote from: Pat Coleman on July 07, 2011, 02:06:55 PM
I think 24,000 is too big for this event.
Agreed.
The upgraded facilities look great, but the last thing you want is a crowd that is drastically under the stadiums capacity. That's one of the annoying/humorous things about the proliferation of FBS Bowl Games. So many of those bowls get horrible attendance and it just makes the bowl seem like a joke.
Not to mention, this seems a bit further from the majority of the DIII footprint than Salem, VA.
Why not Mary Hardin Baylor's new Venue? The climate in Texas during mid December is going to be better than anywhere else, and the new stadium in Belton looks like its going to be as nice or nicer than any other in all of division III. Also worth mentioning, it seats around 10 to 12,000, and probably around 15,000 with over flow seating into the standing area and in the grass. Sounds perfect to me! :D
Quote from: CruFrenzy on August 24, 2011, 10:25:17 PM
Why not Mary Hardin Baylor's new Venue? The climate in Texas during mid December is going to be better than anywhere else, and the new stadium in Belton looks like its going to be as nice or nicer than any other in all of division III. Also worth mentioning, it seats around 10 to 12,000, and probably around 15,000 with over flow seating into the standing area and in the grass. Sounds perfect to me! :D
As has been mentioned before, something like that comes down to location, location, location. And Belton isn't located very close to the heart of the D-III universe.
Let's let you guys play in the stadium for a couple years ... or even actually open it ... before we start moving the title game there. :)
Quote from: Pat Coleman on August 24, 2011, 10:50:48 PM
Let's let you guys play in the stadium for a couple years ... or even actually open it ... before we start moving the title game there. :)
Yes, i understand your point Pat. But what do you think of the idea maybe a few years after we open it? Will the location be a problem? Because i know the facility itself wont.
I do think the location will be a problem, similar to with Coppell a few years back.
Fawcett Stadium next to the Pro Football Hall of Fame in Canton, Ohio. 25 miles from Alliance. Would have saved NCAA a ton of money in travel costs and lodging over the past 20 years.
Quote from: seventiesraider on August 25, 2011, 04:10:09 AM
Fawcett Stadium next to the Pro Football Hall of Fame in Canton, Ohio. 25 miles from Alliance. Would have saved NCAA a ton of money in travel costs and lodging over the past 20 years.
... but may have cost the NCAA a ton more in snow removal related expenditures, too.
Quote from: BoBo on August 25, 2011, 11:53:18 PM
Quote from: seventiesraider on August 25, 2011, 04:10:09 AM
Fawcett Stadium next to the Pro Football Hall of Fame in Canton, Ohio. 25 miles from Alliance. Would have saved NCAA a ton of money in travel costs and lodging over the past 20 years.
... but may have cost the NCAA a ton more in snow removal related expenditures, too.
Exactly. The occasionally snowy Stagg Bowl is a fun and dramatic addition to the National Title game.
Moving it to Fawcett essentially guarantees that we should change the name to "Snow Bowl" and expect that every year ice, cold and/or snow will be on central display. I love when inclement weather throws football games a curveball, but I'm not convinced bad weather or serious cold should be made one of the yearly ingredients for the Stagg.
Personally I'm in favor of keeping it where it is,but for discussions sake, where is the geographic center of the d3 world using the states along I-35 as the western edge of the area. (I realize d3 goes all the way to CA, but there aren't many teams west of the line between Texas and Minnesota)
Quote from: Toby Taff on August 29, 2011, 10:04:31 AM
Personally I'm in favor of keeping it where it is,but for discussions sake, where is the geographic center of the d3 world using the states along I-35 as the western edge of the area. (I realize d3 goes all the way to CA, but there aren't many teams west of the line between Texas and Minnesota)
Interestingly, if you look at the D3 map linked in the forum of the same name, it looks like the center of the D3 universe in the area you've outlined is...Centre. If you want to account for the density of schools further north, then the center probably shifts north a little further up into south central Ohio somewhere. But I'm with you regarding keeping it where it is. If it isn't broke...
I agree with keeping the Stagg Bowl in Salem as long as they are willing to put on a first class experience.
As for the center of D3. Accounting for the higher number of schools to the North and East I would agree with Ohio. Biggest city would probably be Columbus for the geographical center
Pat has often suggested that Columbus, Ohio is the geographic center of D-III, in the sense that living there would put a person in driving distance of 65% of the division and a short flight of 90% of it (made-up percentages mine).
Re: moving the Stagg Bowl to Texas or Ohio, each one of those addresses one of the key concerns (weather or distance) but not the other. Salem isn't perfect in the weather regard, and Ohio would probably draw bigger crowds, but perhaps to a less-enjoyable experience. I think further back on this thread Fawcett is discussed, and it's just too big for D-III. Even Mount Union home games don't draw 10,000 and Fawcett seats 22,364.
I'd be fine with it going to Canton if the city could match Salem's effort though.
Quote from: K-Mack on September 27, 2011, 09:54:33 PM
Pat has often suggested that Columbus, Ohio is the geographic center of D-III, in the sense that living there would put a person in driving distance of 65% of the division and a short flight of 90% of it (made-up percentages mine).
Re: moving the Stagg Bowl to Texas or Ohio, each one of those addresses one of the key concerns (weather or distance) but not the other. Salem isn't perfect in the weather regard, and Ohio would probably draw bigger crowds, but perhaps to a less-enjoyable experience. I think further back on this thread Fawcett is discussed, and it's just too big for D-III. Even Mount Union home games don't draw 10,000 and Fawcett seats 22,364.
I'd be fine with it going to Canton if the city could match Salem's effort though.
....And Canton would essentially be a home game for Mount Union.
-Ski
I think that's the point, in the "let's get a big crowd there" crowd. Plus the Pro HOF is there so it's a two-for-one trip for a lot of people.
But yeah, Mount Union barely has to leave Ohio as it is.
Was there talk at one time about Frisco, Texas being the site for the game?
I don't think so. Coppell was the site that reportedly made a bid. Frisco is about to host the FCS title game for the second time.
I am seeking everyone's honest opinion. Would the NCAA seriously consider a move north to Canton if they put in a winning/competitive bid? Or...would the "weather factor" be the final trump card?
Having connections with the folks that put on most of the sporting events happening in the Stark County area, I can say they would definitely want the game, and would put together a very attractive bid if it there was a realistic chance for them to get the game. Especially with the area temporarily losing the OHSAA football championships in a few years.
Thoughts?
S_S,
Not sure how much of this thread you read, but there's some pretty detailed discussion on Canton in here.
IMO Canton probably has as good a chance as any city besides Salem of getting it, as it's got a facility, the support staff (I assume since it puts on other events), and a D-III-friendly location somewhat.
I don't know if I would put anybody as the odds-on favorite to take it from Salem, but if Canton was strong enough in the other areas, I think it's worth a try. I don't think weather would have it thrown out summarily -- especially when one can reference the Snow Bowl of two years ago in Salem as proof that weather there in December -- really any D-III-heavy territory -- is always going to be dicey. Some places more than others of course, but anywhere in driving distance for the majority of D-III is going to be a cold-weather possibility.
As a resident of Canton, I can only really think of one or two recent Stagg Bowls were the weather was dramatically nicer in Salem than back in Canton. I can also think of a few in which the weather was much worse in Salem. I think the weather component is a little over-blown. Canton is south of the Lake Erie snow belt so mid-December is not typically the worst part of the season.
As for Fawcett Stadium, it is indeed larger than Salem Stadium. But Fawcett also has endzone seating that SS does not have. If you were to tarp those with various NCAA/Stagg Bowl/Sponsors logos it would bring the capacity down quite a bit. Combine that with the shorter drive for most of D3 and the HOF, and I would think you would see some "big" crowds. Fawcett would also eliminate having that janky video board that ESPN uses in Salem.
Might have to start pushing the idea on some of the Mount grads that work for the city
In the same area is Masillon. Paul Brown Tiger Stadium is smaller than Fawcett, but still about twice Salem. And one side has covered stands.
The Stagg was played just north of Cincinnati in the 80s, when the College Football Hall of Fame was there. Augustana played two years, one against Union (I was there) and I'm too lazy to look up the other (poss Central). Didn't draw very well, and the game I went to was about 35 degrees with spitting snow.
Well.....I made a phone call, and will have a sit-down next week to make the people aware of the opportunity, and explore "next steps". I think it could be an exercise worth at least pursuing to the point to see if feasible, and what interest there may be.
Quote from: PurpleSuit on October 25, 2011, 03:54:53 PM
Combine that with the shorter drive for most of D3 and the HOF, and I would think you would see some "big" crowds. Fawcett would also eliminate having that janky video board that ESPN uses in Salem.
I definitely think the 25,000 capacity is an issue. Also, it's not necessarily a shorter drive for "most" of D3, but it's a shorter drive for one of the teams most likely to be in the game.
That could bring up fairness concerns, I suppose.
Anyway, it's worth investigating.
Quote from: PurpleSuit on October 25, 2011, 03:54:53 PM
As a resident of Canton, I can only really think of one or two recent Stagg Bowls were the weather was dramatically nicer in Salem than back in Canton. I can also think of a few in which the weather was much worse in Salem. I think the weather component is a little over-blown. Canton is south of the Lake Erie snow belt so mid-December is not typically the worst part of the season.
As for Fawcett Stadium, it is indeed larger than Salem Stadium. But Fawcett also has endzone seating that SS does not have. If you were to tarp those with various NCAA/Stagg Bowl/Sponsors logos it would bring the capacity down quite a bit. Combine that with the shorter drive for most of D3 and the HOF, and I would think you would see some "big" crowds. Fawcett would also eliminate having that janky video board that ESPN uses in Salem.
Might have to start pushing the idea on some of the Mount grads that work for the city
As a D3fan who does not live in either of the areas ever likely to host a Stagg Bowl,
my question to the Canton contention is how big a deal would the Stagg Bowl be in the lives and community compared to Salem?
How many volunteers would be available to do all of the things that handled by the citizens of Salem?
I don't doubt all of the specific points that you have mentioned but the intangibles that I have read about Salem seem extremely difficult to reproduce, especially when the "big show" for Canton is every July. The Stagg is a big deal to Salem. Canton OH? I am not sure.
(Walk-up traffic for a football game in Frisco Texas? I think that most fans would more likely attend the Texas University Interscholastic League semi-finals at Jerry World that weekend. The UIL is the governing body for the 1200-member Texas high schools in interscholastic competition, from One Act Play and Marching Band to football, etc.)
Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 25, 2011, 11:14:39 PM
my question to the Canton contention is how big a deal would the Stagg Bowl be in the lives and community compared to Salem?
You'd be hard pressed to find a community that loves football more than the Canton/Stark County area. Its a religion to some around here.
Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 25, 2011, 11:14:39 PM
How many volunteers would be available to do all of the things that handled by the citizens of Salem?
You referenced the "big show" in July, but Stark County also hosts the Ohio high school championships every year for the past 20 years. The volunteers have been one of the main reasons that such a small community, compared to other cities, has been able to defeat bid from other larger communities around the state. Not too mention the recent Junior IFAF World Championships held at Fawcett. Salem/Roanoke does a tremendous job, but volunteers would not be a problem.
Skunks,
Let me know if there is anything that I could do to assist
If it ain't broke....
Thanks, PurpleSuit,
and thank you, Frank.
A few thoughts/info....
The Stark County CVB is been active and focused on bringing in more tourism dollars through sporting events. They see the great value in said events, and have been very aggressive when pursuing those opportunities. That focus has just been renewed with recent developments.
The area will lose the Ohio High School Football Championships starting in 2014 for two years, with no clear indication that they will ever get them back.
The Pro Football HOF has been a more than willing partner on all these events, and is a great venue to host parties, dinners, meetings, press conferences, etc...
Again, it might be an interesting exploration as to the feasibility of having the Stagg Bowl at Fawcett.
I really like the look of Fawcett Stadium and the city its self i'm sure would love to host the game. But how is the weather usually in Canton at the time of the Stagg Bowl?
Because it really is WAY up north.
On average in December Canton is below freezing at night.
too cold! :o
ok with the discussion of changing the venue, but would have to vote against it. i have enjoyed my trips to the stagg the past 5 years and a big intangible that is being overlooked is whether or not stone station would be there. some may not care, but many of those of us who travel have been accepted as friends by this great group of people and i believe that the overall atmosphere of the game is enhanced by them being there. salem has been great and easy to get to for most of the d3 people who really want to get there. uwww doesnt seem to have any issues getting a great fan base, i am sure they would have more in ohio, but sometime they will not be in the game every year. i agree with frank, if is aint broke.
Quote from: wesleydad on October 26, 2011, 10:27:12 PM
ok with the discussion of changing the venue, but would have to vote against it. i have enjoyed my trips to the stagg the past 5 years and a big intangible that is being overlooked is whether or not stone station would be there. some may not care, but many of those of us who travel have been accepted as friends by this great group of people and i believe that the overall atmosphere of the game is enhanced by them being there. salem has been great and easy to get to for most of the d3 people who really want to get there. uwww doesnt seem to have any issues getting a great fan base, i am sure they would have more in ohio, but sometime they will not be in the game every year. i agree with frank, if is aint broke.
... not to mention moving it would give the impression (true or not) that the move is being done to curry favor with supporters of one particular constant Stagg Bowl participant. No thanks.
For the past 5 yrs the boy and i have enjoyed eating real rammajamma yella hamma BBQ with the good folk from Stone Station, going to the gun show ( that reminds me of bama), trying to not stand to close to wesleydad when he yells at folk (as i can't run fast anymore with my fake hip), cash in hampton inn points for a warm room, and getting to visit old friends in Blacksburg in the drive up the valley. I will always vote for Salem, Va....always.
keep the faith and Go Hawks
dg, af4, thanks for making me laugh. you made my point. there are way more positives to salem than negatives. i always enjoy seeing you and the boy at the stagg, go hawks except for the last game this year, then go wolverines. and by the way, i dont yell at people unless they are really annoying, then they deserve it. ;)
WesleyDad Said: "there are way more positives to salem than negatives"
amen
"i dont yell at people unless they are really annoying, then they deserve it"
i ain't gonna comment on that, i thank they were wearing purple...but wait...they were all wearing purple
keep the faith
Snow and ice storm in Salem/Roanoke in October??? How on Earth could there possibly be a football game played in December there? Just sunny and perfect fall weather here in Ohio.
if weather is the issue just move the game to socal ,its always sunny ;D
Quote from: cludad on October 29, 2011, 01:51:02 AM
if weather is the issue just move the game to socal ,its always sunny ;D
I've heard that the same is true for Philadelphia. ;)
The Pro Football HOF is one intangible Salem could not match. If the volunteers were twiddling their thumbs after losing the high school championships, I think a Canton bid would have a chance.
The other thing Salem has going for it is it seems willing to host any and all D-III championships, not just football. They are used to it enough now where the TV and newspapers cover it and the people come out for events. Canton, by virtue of its proximity to Mount Union, might be able to match that for football, but I'm assuming Canton is not interested in volleyball, softball, etc. Not sure if that would matter or not.
I'd put it at 65/35 Canton could take it, but that's about 25 more percent than I'd ever given a competing bid before.
S-S, where are the Ohio HS championships going?
k-mack, is that 65/35 in favor of canton or salem. nothing against canton, and i like the mount guys, salem has just been a fun trip everytime we have gone.
on another note, did you get to check out my travels this year? posted on mid atlantic board.
K-Mack,
The HS Championsips are headed to Ohio Stadium in Columbus for two years. Ironically, it was allegedly Tressel that helped Columbus "win the bid". There has been discussion (probably more on chat boards vs. within the OHSAA) about reversing that decision to move the games to Columbus because of all the scandal, etc...
I know that in the past Canton has also hosted the D-II Swimming Championships as recently as 2010, so they do have some experience in other sports.
Who knows if they would even be interested in building a bid. I will find out soon, and report what was said.
Quote from: wesleydad on November 02, 2011, 10:03:41 PM
k-mack, is that 65/35 in favor of canton or salem. nothing against canton, and i like the mount guys, salem has just been a fun trip everytime we have gone.
on another note, did you get to check out my travels this year? posted on mid atlantic board.
Canton is the 35.
And thanks for the reminder, will look. I told you we should hire you! (can you write?)
The game could also be played in Landover, Maryland (Great Four Season State) @ the Prince George's Sports and Learning Complex right next to FedEx field. The facility is great and the field is also great. Would be nice to bring the D3 Football Championship to the nation capital. Here is a link below if interested.
http://pgsportsandlearn.com/track.html
k mack, i teach math, but i am certified to teach language arts in middle school, so i am sure i could put pen to paper, but i am not sure if i could do it as well as you guys do.
Quote from: wesleydad on November 03, 2011, 10:24:29 PM
k mack, i teach math, but i am certified to teach language arts in middle school, so i am sure i could put pen to paper, but i am not sure if i could do it as well as you guys do.
Aren't middle school language arts kids supposed to know capitalization?! ;D
Or do you specialize is e. e. cummings? 8-)
Quote from: SUADC on November 03, 2011, 12:23:50 PM
The game could also be played in Landover, Maryland (Great Four Season State) @ the Prince George's Sports and Learning Complex right next to FedEx field. The facility is great and the field is also great. Would be nice to bring the D3 Football Championship to the nation capital. Here is a link below if interested.
http://pgsportsandlearn.com/track.html
A stadium with a capacity of 5500 seems a little small for the Stagg.
Although Skunks and myself are "Mount guys," I think that Canton should be considered regardless of Mount Union being 30 minutes down the road. I wonder how many people made a big deal about Bridgewater playing in a National Title game in their backyard? If the city of Canton decides to make a bid, I would hope that they be viewed on the community's merits alone.
Quote from: Ron Boerger on November 03, 2011, 10:44:41 PM
Quote from: SUADC on November 03, 2011, 12:23:50 PM
The game could also be played in Landover, Maryland (Great Four Season State) @ the Prince George's Sports and Learning Complex right next to FedEx field. The facility is great and the field is also great. Would be nice to bring the D3 Football Championship to the nation capital. Here is a link below if interested.
http://pgsportsandlearn.com/track.html
A stadium with a capacity of 5500 seems a little small for the Stagg.
The Washington, D.C., market seems a little large for the Stagg.
Quote from: PurpleSuit on November 04, 2011, 12:18:35 AM
I wonder how many people made a big deal about Bridgewater playing in a National Title game in their backyard?
Had Bridgewater played in the Stagg nine of the the previous ten years, this analogy might have some merit.
Quote from: Ron Boerger on November 04, 2011, 08:15:07 AM
Quote from: PurpleSuit on November 04, 2011, 12:18:35 AM
I wonder how many people made a big deal about Bridgewater playing in a National Title game in their backyard?
Had Bridgewater played in the Stagg nine of the the previous ten years, this analogy might have some merit.
Point being is that there will always be a handful of colleges that would be "home teams" at any location. Unless you want to put the game in Alaska or Hawaii. A location should not be penalized for the success of a football program that is sort of close.
I don't think the committee feels the same way, for what it's worth.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on November 04, 2011, 02:24:16 PM
I don't think the committee feels the same way, for what it's worth.
I would hope that you are wrong, but I doubt it. Seems like a lot of "if its not broke" attitude in D3 football. Regardless, I look forward to hearing from Skunks
mr.ypsi, no i do not specialize in e. e. cummngs, just too lazy to hit the shift key when i type. certainly would do it if i had to. my brother is a writer and he gets annoyed when i do it on facebook so i do it on purpose now. i would mark it wrong on my middle school students papers unless they could prove to me that they even knew who e. e. cummings was. ;D
Quote from: PurpleSuit on November 04, 2011, 12:18:35 AM
Although Skunks and myself are "Mount guys," I think that Canton should be considered regardless of Mount Union being 30 minutes down the road. I wonder how many people made a big deal about Bridgewater playing in a National Title game in their backyard? If the city of Canton decides to make a bid, I would hope that they be viewed on the community's merits alone.
The NCAA probably would view it on its merits. You also have the Pro Football HOF angle, which should they decide to get involved, would be a trump card no one else has.
There's also the slight chance that playing it there would guarantee a full house, and money would come into play as a positive for the Canton bid, though that would be a better argument if Mount could average 6,000 or more of for its home games. Does it average 8,000 in the playoffs?
It's the fans who would probably raise a stink about it. And the bus companies in the Alliance area :)
Quote from: wesleydad on November 05, 2011, 08:42:23 PM
mr.ypsi, no i do not specialize in e. e. cummngs, just too lazy to hit the shift key when i type. certainly would do it if i had to. my brother is a writer and he gets annoyed when i do it on facebook so i do it on purpose now. i would mark it wrong on my middle school students papers unless they could prove to me that they even knew who e. e. cummings was. ;D
Didn't he eschew punctuation most of the time, though?
Quote from: K-Mack on November 06, 2011, 03:49:44 PM
Quote from: PurpleSuit on November 04, 2011, 12:18:35 AM
Although Skunks and myself are "Mount guys," I think that Canton should be considered regardless of Mount Union being 30 minutes down the road. I wonder how many people made a big deal about Bridgewater playing in a National Title game in their backyard? If the city of Canton decides to make a bid, I would hope that they be viewed on the community's merits alone.
The NCAA probably would view it on its merits. You also have the Pro Football HOF angle, which should they decide to get involved, would be a trump card no one else has.
There's also the slight chance that playing it there would guarantee a full house, and money would come into play as a positive for the Canton bid, though that would be a better argument if Mount could average 6,000 or more of for its home games. Does it average 8,000 in the playoffs?
It's the fans who would probably raise a stink about it. And the bus companies in the Alliance area :)
Mount doesn't draw well in the playoffs, necessarily, like a lot of teams.
Why not the metrodome? Last year would have been a bad year to host it there, but it seems like they might be able to prevent future collapses. It can get loud with only 5000, and is easier to fly to than Salem. It's much closer to whitewater, and the Tommies would need the homefield boost to get past the other purple powers.
I don't know all the factors that go into arranging championship games at different places, stadiums, or city markets. But, after thinking about this for a bit. I think the Stagg bowl should rotate every year, rotating from region to region each year. This would eliminate the homefield advantage scenario. Also, would bring a lot more attention nationally. It can be similar to the Olympics. Maybe they should have the sports writers and committee vote on where it should be played each year four years in advance based on playoff play.
I don't think so. I think there's way too much work involved for this to rotate every year. If a new place were to get it, it would need a year just to figure out what needs to be done.
And let's put it this way -- if 20 inches of snow got dumped anywhere else 18 hours before a Stagg Bowl, I don't know if anywhere else could have played that day.
and if you were there to witness the cleanup from start to finish as i was you would nothing but respect for the people of salem. the fact that that game was played at all let alone on a field that if you didnt know it had snowed you would not have thought it did. i am in favor of the game staying in salem for as long as they want to keep putting it on. there may be other places that have other attractions, but that is what i like about salem, the game is the attraction. if you have not been there for a game, make the trip and i am sure you will be impressed.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on November 07, 2011, 08:51:12 PM
I don't think so. I think there's way too much work involved for this to rotate every year. If a new place were to get it, it would need a year just to figure out what needs to be done.
And let's put it this way -- if 20 inches of snow got dumped anywhere else 18 hours before a Stagg Bowl, I don't know if anywhere else could have played that day.
I understand how dedicated the city of Salem is and my appreciation for what they have done for Divison 3 and allowing us to play there, gains my upmost respect. I was thinking that historically since there has been more 'West' regional and 'North' regional teams winning the Stagg bowl. The fans should be awarded for their regions play. Also, you said it takes up to a year to figure it out. I indicated that it should be prepared four years in advance, giving the city and people enough time in advance to prepare. We can even keep Salem as both our "East" and "South" regional spot since it is pretty close in terms of traveling for teams from the South and East.
I think you are underestimating the work that goes into hosting an event like the Stagg Bowl. You need dedicated volunteers and administrators and the best way to do that is to keep them engaged year over year. If you are moving it around so that you only get it once every four years, you are going to be retraining a lot of new volunteers for each event without as much holdover participation.
While in theory it's a good idea to move it around and give the game exposure, in practice it works very well to have a "home." The fact that the home represents a good trade-off between driving accessibility for much of D3 AND some of the best odds for decent weather that you will find in a driving accessible area and you find Salem is a very good choice.
I'm not opposed to having opposing bids and I think everyone should have their say if they want to host. But its not as simple as just saying spreading it around is good, so make it happen.
......AND some of the best odds for decent weather......... :o ::)
Yah....about that........ ;D
I have been to the Stagg Bowl ten times over the past sixteen years. Out of those ten times, the weather was DECENT four. The other six times were cold, rainy, windy, fog, snowing, and/or all the above. Quite honestly, it was one of the driving forces for me to say....."what if"?
I can report that early word is Canton/Stark County, OH, WILL put a bid in to host the Stagg. They are working through a transition, and are expecting to get busy with the bid in January/February. The current director is transitioning over to running the Canton Marathon, which will launch for the first time this summer. His replacement is in place, and she is looking forward to putting together a competitive bid.
More in the coming months!
I think its great Canton will submit a bid. I wish them luck. But I still say the odds are better for good weather in Salem than Canton. I used the term odds, not guarantees, for a reason. For example, the average high and low for Salem in early Dec is 52/36 degrees with average monthly percipitation in Nov/Dec between 3.4 and 2.94 inches respectively. The same numbers for Canton, OH are 45/30 and 3.28 to 2.84 inches. Given the game is now being played Friday nights (at least this year), and the average certainly points to warmer BUT ever so slightly wetter weather in Salem. All weather information pulled from weather.com.
Competition is always good and may the best bid win!
I've been to Salem every year since 1997, and my recollection is different than Skunks_sidekicks. The weather's really only been an issue that once, but it's rarely ever great. It's mostly chilly and nondescript, which is pretty fitting for about 175 of the D-III programs competing to get to the championship, and par for the course anywhere you hold it in the D-III heavy part of the country.
And you guys are right, Salem earned tremendous respect by cleaning off that field in '09.
I'll be interested to see what Canton comes up with.
FWIW, the games are awarded in 2-year packages, IIRC.
Quote from: K-Mack on November 21, 2011, 10:14:03 PM
I've been to Salem every year since 1997, ...The weather's really only been an issue that once, but it's rarely ever great. It's mostly chilly and nondescript...
The freezing rain and wind of '94 wasn't all that fun.
I vote for returning to Bradenton!....10 of the best days of my life! Of course, I don't see a Stagg Bowl appearance in W&J's future anytime soon!
25 degrees and nasty wind wasn't any fun in 1993 either. Especially when we weren't smart enough to check into the weather forecast in Salem BEFORE we left Ohio.
In regards to the weather, the "average" is definitely better in Salem VA than it is in Canton OH. But Canton doesn't have near the variability in possible weather conditions that Salem seems to have. As we leave town on Friday mornings to make the trip to VA, it's usually 30, calm and spitting snow. And when we get home Sat night/Sunday morning the weather is the same. 30 and snow flurries. But the weather in Salem could be anywhere between beautiful and down right crazy.
IMHO, Canton's bid has zero chance because of Mount Union. If they could have done it back in the mid 1990's or early, then it would have a chance. Now I just can't see any way the NCAA places the game in Mount's backyard. And besides, Salem does a great job.
I would miss my trips to Virginia. They have been most enjoyable. However, there is nothing wrong with Canton being in the same county as UMU. They are not exactly familiar with the field. Have they ever even played there? It would be well attended and supported by the locals...even if Mount wasnt in it. There was some degree of interest among the locals when I attended The Stagg Bowl in the 90s, but that seems to have died down somewhat. There IS all that tournament experience from hosting the state championships to draw upon also. Canton is definitely accessible. Highways, hotels, airport, Pro Football Hall of Fame, nearby malls.....you could do MUCH worse. The pressbox is pro quality for broadcasting...ask ABC. I say try it, you will like it! Its only a 2 year contract. Travelwise, I bet it would save the NCAA money since there are more D3 schools in the north. The only bad thing is December Ohio weather. You never know what you are gonna get! Maybe Aloha Studium is available then? ;)
Quote from: Pat Coleman on November 07, 2011, 08:51:12 PM
I don't think so. I think there's way too much work involved for this to rotate every year. If a new place were to get it, it would need a year just to figure out what needs to be done.
And let's put it this way -- if 20 inches of snow got dumped anywhere else 18 hours before a Stagg Bowl, I don't know if anywhere else could have played that day.
Pat, in Ohio some highschool teams had full legnth tarps before there were artificial surfaces. And for the really big games, helicopters were hired to hover over fields to dry them off after a full night of rain, sometimes lingering until minutes before kickoff to get the job done. You need not worry about site preperation. We shine at that. Stark County Ohio is football crazy, has been for over 100 years. We can handle the job. How about a full legnth field indoor practice facility? Stark County has one of those also. The NCAA might want to take a closer look at us. We could host the Stagg bowl on much less than a full years notice. Im sure of it. Still, Virginia in December is a lovely place!
I won't go into all the bad weather I have personally experienced attending the Stagg Bowl. Needless to say, from my anecdotal evidence, the weather has been CRAPPY more times than not in Salem.
As HSCoach so eloquently explained, most times when heading to the Stagg from the Canton, OH area, we left cold but fairly calm conditions, to drive into a cornacopia of "weather fun". Just to outline a few '00 experiences....
2000 - FREEZING but fairly calm weather against SJU
2001 - GREAT weather for the night game against Bridgewater
2002 - I was all excited because the weather called for sun, and warm temperatures. The wind HOWLED out of the mountain, and neither team could throw the ball while going in that direction.
2003 - that which won't be discussed (and I wasn't there) 8-)
2004 - did they play a game that year? 8-)
2005 - COLD......SNOW mounds in the parking lot
2006 - decent
2007 - blowing.....rain....sleet.....rain again
2008 - decent
2009 - worst driving conditions ever experienced. Snow storm of the century?decade? in Salem. Very bad deal.
2010 - fairly nice (and I wasn't there)
Canton (and Stark County) are experts at dealing with any bad weather, and the volunteers & staff that would be available for the Stagg Bowl would be second to none. As said earlier, the person/folks who will put together a bid will start working on it in January.
How about a dome, like the UNI dome? Seats 16,300. No weather to worry about.
I always thought weather was part of football. I mean, it's the same for both teams on the field right?
Quote from: smedindy on November 23, 2011, 01:37:59 PM
How about a dome, like the UNI dome? Seats 16,300. No weather to worry about.
For kicks, about a year ago I actually got a look into what it takes to use the UNI dome. They charge some pretty high fees to use that building. Without going into specifics, I don't think it's a good fit.
Quote from: skunks_sidekick on November 23, 2011, 08:21:12 AM
I won't go into all the bad weather I have personally experienced attending the Stagg Bowl. Needless to say, from my anecdotal evidence, the weather has been CRAPPY more times than not in Salem.
As HSCoach so eloquently explained, most times when heading to the Stagg from the Canton, OH area, we left cold but fairly calm conditions, to drive into a cornacopia of "weather fun". Just to outline a few '00 experiences....
2000 - FREEZING but fairly calm weather against SJU
2001 - GREAT weather for the night game against Bridgewater
2002 - I was all excited because the weather called for sun, and warm temperatures. The wind HOWLED out of the mountain, and neither team could throw the ball while going in that direction.
2003 - that which won't be discussed (and I wasn't there) 8-)
2004 - did they play a game that year? 8-)
2005 - COLD......SNOW mounds in the parking lot
2006 - decent
2007 - blowing.....rain....sleet.....rain again
2008 - decent
2009 - worst driving conditions ever experienced. Snow storm of the century?decade? in Salem. Very bad deal.
2010 - fairly nice (and I wasn't there)
Canton (and Stark County) are experts at dealing with any bad weather, and the volunteers & staff that would be available for the Stagg Bowl would be second to none. As said earlier, the person/folks who will put together a bid will start working on it in January.
I remember the weather in Salem. It was pretty nice... a whole lot nicer than the week before in Alliance in north east Ohio.
Man, the week before, it was cold and dreary and snowy.. It took a 17-point 4th quarter come-from-behind smash mouth hard nosed football
effort for UMHB (http://athletics.mountunion.edu/sports/fball/2004-05/files/mtu-umhb.htm) to win that game. And what a TD catch by Sharp with 0:48 secs left!
I am glad to help our posters remember the weather in Salem that year. Anytime I can help, just let me know. ;)
Gee thanks Ralph....I almost had that play erased from memory, and you had to remember it for me. >:( I still get angry about that one. The least MHB coulda done was win it all after that! That game was the tale of 2 halves.
Ralph,
Those poor UMHB fans! College guys and gals (my sig other saw the gals) huddled in the bathrooms by the heaters just about frozen solid! I will say that was one cold game, no matter where you were from, or who you were.
Yah Ralph.......back to therapy for me! :o I had successfully blocked that game out of my mind........knock the ball down...just knock....it.....DOWN! >:(
Quote from: Pat Coleman on November 23, 2011, 02:50:15 PM
Quote from: smedindy on November 23, 2011, 01:37:59 PM
How about a dome, like the UNI dome? Seats 16,300. No weather to worry about.
For kicks, about a year ago I actually got a look into what it takes to use the UNI dome. They charge some pretty high fees to use that building. Without going into specifics, I don't think it's a good fit.
Was just an idea - now back to your regular programming! ;)
Quote from: jknezek on November 23, 2011, 01:45:13 PM
I always thought weather was part of football. I mean, it's the same for both teams on the field right?
This.
Not only is it a part of football, but it's common for the 15/16ths of D-III that comes from the Northeast, mid-Atlantic and upper midwest.
* -- fractions may have been embellished to enhance point-making.
Not that I'm a fan of moving the game, but I would sure like the game to be played in decent wind/rain conditions. I'm not saying we need 70 and sunny, but it would be nice to not have a 50/50 chance of high winds.
The two years with the lowest attendance were when the games were in Ohio. :'(
Quote from: Gray Fox on December 11, 2011, 06:42:13 PM
The two years with the lowest attendance were when the games were in Ohio. :'(
Factually that is incorrect, and the last time the games were in Ohio was 25+ years ago. Hardly relevant.
This game could possibly played at the Navy - Marine Corps Memorial Stadium.
This can give some of our troops an opportunity to see Division III Football at its best. The stadium is great, the facilities are great, and the people there are just outstanding. I have played their twice and I have to say it was awesome.
Here are some links:
http://www.navysports.com/facilities/nmcm-stadium-360/index.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navy-Marine_Corps_Memorial_Stadium
Quote from: PurpleSuit on December 12, 2011, 01:19:01 PM
Quote from: Gray Fox on December 11, 2011, 06:42:13 PM
The two years with the lowest attendance were when the games were in Ohio. :'(
Factually that is incorrect, and the last time the games were in Ohio was 25+ years ago. Hardly relevant.
The FACTS are here. You can interpret them any way you wish, Purple Suit. :)
http://d3football.com/playoffs/index
If the whole point is avoiding inclement weather then maybe the game should be played in South Florida, Southern California or the Cayman Islands. I've seen plenty of bowl games played in snow, even in El Paso and Shreveport. Nothing like watching the Poulan / Weed Eater Independence Bowl played in a blizzard!
Frankly it should be played where D-3 fans can gather with relative ease, knowing that it's going to be some distance for some teams or fans no matter what.
Quote from: Gray Fox on December 12, 2011, 04:37:34 PM
Quote from: PurpleSuit on December 12, 2011, 01:19:01 PM
Quote from: Gray Fox on December 11, 2011, 06:42:13 PM
The two years with the lowest attendance were when the games were in Ohio. :'(
Factually that is incorrect, and the last time the games were in Ohio was 25+ years ago. Hardly relevant.
The FACTS are here. You can interpret them any way you wish, Purple Suit. :)
http://d3football.com/playoffs/index
1985 and 86 looked like they were played in Alabama. I wasn't a Math major but I'm pretty sure 1,879 and 2,000 are lower than the two years played at Kings Island.
Quote from: PurpleSuit on December 12, 2011, 04:59:06 PM
Quote from: Gray Fox on December 12, 2011, 04:37:34 PM
Quote from: PurpleSuit on December 12, 2011, 01:19:01 PM
Quote from: Gray Fox on December 11, 2011, 06:42:13 PM
The two years with the lowest attendance were when the games were in Ohio. :'(
Factually that is incorrect, and the last time the games were in Ohio was 25+ years ago. Hardly relevant.
The FACTS are here. You can interpret them any way you wish, Purple Suit. :)
http://d3football.com/playoffs/index
1985 and 86 looked like they were played in Alabama. I wasn't a Math major but I'm pretty sure 1,879 and 2,000 are lower than the two years played at Kings Island.
I realize that you want to just drive down the street to see your favorite team. But they can't win every year forever.
Let me restate my original statement. The location with the lowest average attendance was the two years it was in Ohio. :-[ It was broke, so they fixed it.
It works in Salem. They want it. Keep it there. :-*
I agree with Gray Fox on this. Why should it be moved is my question? Most of the crowd comes from the teams involved and most can get there if they want. Salem does a great job and wants the game. I will repeat what I said before, I know others could do it, but you had to be there at 7 in the morning of the blizzard of the century to have an appreciation for what the town did to get the field, parking lot, and streets cleared for people to get there. It isnt broke so it doesnt need to be fixed.
It is quite simple, really... if someone else wants it... they need to bid for it. Then the NCAA can compare the bids (because, obviously, Salem will bid) and decide where to take the game. This is the same deal for the men's basketball championship weekend. So far, no one that I am aware of actually bids against Salem... so it is a moot point unless we actually get a bid and the NCAA is forced to make a decision.
I would vote for the Cayman Islands myself. But then I'd go to the Stagg Bowl and never come back.
I did notice that the attendance in Florida was pretty damn good, despite (or because of?) six different teams in three years, none very 'local'. Cayman Islands might not be a bad idea! ;D
But only if Stone Station wants a trip to paradise. 8-)
Quote from: Gray Fox on December 12, 2011, 05:25:50 PM
Quote from: PurpleSuit on December 12, 2011, 04:59:06 PM
Quote from: Gray Fox on December 12, 2011, 04:37:34 PM
Quote from: PurpleSuit on December 12, 2011, 01:19:01 PM
Quote from: Gray Fox on December 11, 2011, 06:42:13 PM
The two years with the lowest attendance were when the games were in Ohio. :'(
Factually that is incorrect, and the last time the games were in Ohio was 25+ years ago. Hardly relevant.
The FACTS are here. You can interpret them any way you wish, Purple Suit. :)
http://d3football.com/playoffs/index
1985 and 86 looked like they were played in Alabama. I wasn't a Math major but I'm pretty sure 1,879 and 2,000 are lower than the two years played at Kings Island.
I realize that you want to just drive down the street to see your favorite team. But they can't win every year forever.
My desire for the Stagg Bowl to move to Canton has little to do with my alma mater's success on the football field. While Salem does a nice job with the Stagg Bowl, I feel that Canton/Stark County could do better and do more for DIII football. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
Quote from: wesleydad on December 12, 2011, 09:01:19 PM
Most of the crowd comes from the teams involved and most can get there if they want.
The vast majority of DIII football schools are closer to Canton than Salem and most by a large margin. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but its not close.
Quote from: wesleydad on December 12, 2011, 09:01:19 PM
I will repeat what I said before, I know others could do it, but you had to be there at 7 in the morning of the blizzard of the century to have an appreciation for what the town did to get the field, parking lot, and streets cleared for people to get there.
I was there actually before 7:00 am. I will not say that Salem did not work hard to make the game possible, but it was not the most efficient effort. Garbage trucks with snow plows on the front plowing the way...huh? There were more "snow plows" off the side of the road on the way to the stadium than trucks actually cleaning the road. Not to mention the stadium's staff handling of snow removal/ticketing policy. I know it was a once in a decade storm, but other locations are far more capable of dealing with the weather.
At the end of the day, I guess we will see what happens. But Salem/Roanoke is not the DIII paradise that many on the boards claim that it is.
Quote from: PurpleSuit on December 13, 2011, 12:23:39 AM
At the end of the day, I guess we will see what happens. But Salem/Roanoke is not the DIII paradise that many on the boards claim that it is.
Depends how you define paradise. Mostly people on our boards and who go to Salem appreciate the effort that is put in to making the Stagg Bowl feel like the big game in town and making the players feel like they're at home.
None of the intelligent posts I read say that another city can't replicate that, but that the volunteer work and the ground-level effort is a
starting point before outbidding Salem.
The discussion was a little less minds-made-up and hyperbole-filled when skunks_sidekick introduced the Canton idea several pages back.
Would be interesting to see what they could do with it. Let's see if they bid.
This all started when some of us (me in particular) asked the question........why not?
From there the discussion went to some of the folks that are involved with the planning, promotion, and implementation of sports entertainment in the Canton/Stark County, OH, area. The interesting thing is they were already debating making a bid on the game.
As I have previously stated, the motivation to bid on the game might be a bit stronger due to the fact that the Canton/Stark County area is losing the OHSAA state football championships for two years. Canton/Stark County has an almost unheard of volunteer support structure already in place, amazing facilities, natural entertainment draws (Pro Football HOF), and is well-versed and capable to handle any inclement weather.
From the discussions I have had with the powers that be, the bid will be forthcoming. I would expect some of the folks involved in putting the bid together will be down in Salem this week.
As someone who is lucky enough to frequently travel, and also who is willing to just "jump on a plane" and go, I am all for a very southern location for the Stagg Bowl. The weather in Salem has been iffy at best. The weather in Canton, OH will amost always be colder than Salem, but not really by that much.
I happen to think that Canton can put together a great bid, and from there the committee can decide what is best for the game. Either way it's a win-win.
Just for the record, many municipalities use garbage trucks with plows for snow removal. Not that uncommon.
Quote from: K-Mack on December 13, 2011, 02:28:05 AM
Quote from: PurpleSuit on December 13, 2011, 12:23:39 AM
At the end of the day, I guess we will see what happens. But Salem/Roanoke is not the DIII paradise that many on the boards claim that it is.
Depends how you define paradise. Mostly people on our boards and who go to Salem appreciate the effort that is put in to making the Stagg Bowl feel like the big game in town and making the players feel like they're at home.
None of the intelligent posts I read say that another city can't replicate that, but that the volunteer work and the ground-level effort is a starting point before outbidding Salem.
The discussion was a little less minds-made-up and hyperbole-filled when skunks_sidekick introduced the Canton idea several pages back.
Would be interesting to see what they could do with it. Let's see if they bid.
Re-introduced, I believe.
I too have experienced some pretty bad weather in Salem. I was in Bradenton ~92 (Dayton/Ithica) if I remember, great weather but the atmosphere was hardly that of a national championship. Areas with lots of tourist attractions don't need to promote the events and it shows. Salem has done a wonderful job of preparing and promoting the game. The stands aren't even filled at mount stadium for a national semifinal game(what a shame), What makes people think they will fill Fawcett stadium 25 minutes away?
Quote from: runk on December 13, 2011, 06:21:17 PM
I too have experienced some pretty bad weather in Salem. I was in Bradenton ~92 (Dayton/Ithica) if I remember, great weather but the atmosphere was hardly that of a national championship. Areas with lots of tourist attractions don't need to promote the events and it shows. Salem has done a wonderful job of preparing and promoting the game. The stands aren't even filled at mount stadium for a national semifinal game(what a shame), What makes people think they will fill Fawcett stadium 25 minutes away?
Runk....believe it or not, this effort is not based upon "let's move the game closer to Mount Union". It's more about the fact that the odds dictate that the two teams playing in the Stagg will be much closer to Canton, OH, than to Salem, VA. The only time I can think of in recent years where that was not the case would have been in 2004 (MHB/Linfield).
I wasn't suggesting it was a move to benefit Mount fans (and I am one). I think Salem does a great job. lots goes on that many don't consider, things during the week for players. It's not just about game day. I'm not saying Canton wouldn't do a good job, I just know Salem does. now bring it friday and surprise some people with number 11....ROLL RAIDERS ROLL!!!!!!!!!!!!
Beautiful day in Salem today. Hope it holds for tomorrow. :)
Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 15, 2011, 11:29:13 AM
Beautiful day in Salem today. Hope it holds for tomorrow. :)
The cold front that is causing the showers that started in South Texas thru east Texas, Arkansas, up the Ohio Valley and into New England may clear out in 36 hours. That should leave clear skies.
Today it's rainy, windy, and warm in Canton, OH. (currently 57) 8-)
Quote from: skunks_sidekick on December 15, 2011, 12:19:50 PM
Today it's rainy, windy, and warm in Canton, OH. (currently 57) 8-)
You are getting the same weather system that we are in east Texas. It is moving eastward.
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 15, 2011, 12:09:53 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 15, 2011, 11:29:13 AM
Beautiful day in Salem today. Hope it holds for tomorrow. :)
The cold front that is causing the showers that started in South Texas thru east Texas, Arkansas, up the Ohio Valley and into New England may clear out in 36 hours. That should leave clear skies.
Which would be great if the game were being played on saturday. Time to move the game to Minnesota. The weather has gotten better every weekend of the playoffs in our sunshine state.
Gametime temps in Canton should be around 30-32.
No rain or snow.
Slight wind (10 mph or less).
PERFECT weather for football!
Perfect for good old-time football, but the typical modern fan doesn't like good old-time football very much, or why would there be domed stadia, luxury boxes, etc.
Frank,
There's a difference between the football fan and the empty suit that wants to sit in the luxury boxes. Football fans will sit outside in the elements.
Irrespective of one's definition of "fan", actual attendance in an open stadium declines radically with rare exception when the weather gets sufficiently nasty.
My point on the OAC board about the weather in Salem is that weather should NOT be part of the criteria in the selection/bid decision regarding location. The weather has been bad in almost every Stagg.
Hopefully the Stark County CVB folks down at the game were able to glean some good information in regards to putting together their bid.
Weather can be a major factor in attendance; in certain not infrequently occurring years the mid-December weather in Canton will be significantly worse than in Salem; whether and to what extent attendance should be a factor in selecting a site is a further question.
weather is like the lottery, you never know when you will win or lose. Thursday, sunny and nice, Friday, rain messes up tailgating but not the game, Saurday, sunny and nice. In the end, the game was not efected by the weather, only us tailgaters had to figure out how to stay dry and keep the food dry.
Quote from: skunks_sidekick on December 17, 2011, 09:25:00 AM
My point on the OAC board about the weather in Salem is that weather should NOT be part of the criteria in the selection/bid decision regarding location. The weather has been bad in almost every Stagg.
Hopefully the Stark County CVB folks down at the game were able to glean some good information in regards to putting together their bid.
Interesting you say this because a few pages back you were the one bringing up the weather and how it's not that different in Canton.
Weather is uncontrollable. It won't be a factor in the bid. For a place besides Salem to get it, they will have to match the effort that is put into the events surrounding the game, as noted in the post by Runk, both by support staff, city employees and volunteers, etc.
Canton, like Salem, is big enough to possibly do that and small enough to give it the attention it deserves. It's a good match for the game, size-wise.
The one thing I noticed this year is Salem isn't resting on its laurels. They added plenty of touches this year -- some minor, but things they don't have to do but spend the money on, including new banners at the stadium, fireworks and balloons being released before kickoff, billboards in the city promoting the night kickoff, promotional ads on the tables at local restaurants, the interview and video portions of the Gagliardi Trophy ceremony and pregame banquest, the video board (added a few years ago but rented for each Stagg), etc.
Take that for what you will. I think it impresses the folks who make the decisions, that Salem is always trying to improve. And at worst case they know Salem can pull it off, which makes them comfortable ... and I think the people who make that decision have to consider both the top end and the bottom end.
Those who believe that Canton should be the spot could evidence their good faith by each commiting to buy a block of tickets to the event.
Quote from: Jonny "Utes" Utah on December 04, 2006, 07:22:30 AM
Im for putting the game in Miami or Tampa and having the 1-AA (or division formally known as 1-AA), d2 and d3 game at the same site. Id even consider that an annual trip if you through some clinics in down there.
Fact is Im not going to Salem unless Ithacas playing, but I would definitly consider Florida.
I stand by my thoughts a few years ago on this one.
I've been to Salem in March twice and to southeast Florida many times during summer, fall, winter and spring. I prefer Salem in March.
This was the only board I could find to post this.
ESPU has re-broadcast of 2012 Stagg Bowl tomorrow at 7pm EDT.
Quote from: ADL70 on July 30, 2013, 07:16:47 PM
This was the only board I could find to post this.
ESPU has re-broadcast of 2012 Stagg Bowl tomorrow at 7pm EDT.
Saw that as well. DII game on now, but that's just not gettin' it done.
Ready for the games to begin and see how the year plays out.
As for this board is concerned...I've been to the last 2 Stagg Bowls and I think Salem is a fine place to hold the event. Cold, yes. (I think the guys from OH and MN can handle it.) But TONS of D3 fans there..lost count at 35 different college hoodies/jackets/caps. Always fine people working the event as well.
Thanks for the tip about the Stagg Bowl rebroadcast.
YES-somewhere warm in Texas or Florida (maybe even the new UMHB stadium) Double the # of teams in the play-offs and schedule the game in between Christmas and New Years. The championship would be more exciting than the majority of the "bowl games" on during that time and would be a great reason to take a winter vacation!
As much as I'd like the Stagg Bowl played in a warm weather setting, the vast majority of D3 schools aren't within driving distance of Texas, or Florida, etc. The location in Virginia is fine.
Quote from: HScoach on July 31, 2013, 05:38:26 PM
As much as I'd like the Stagg Bowl played in a warm weather setting, the vast majority of D3 schools aren't within driving distance of Texas, or Florida, etc. The location in Virginia is fine.
That's because you guys can drive there with your eyes closed ;D I'd have to fly to Virginia and the cost of a plane ticket is Staggering :o ;D
Quote from: NCF on July 31, 2013, 07:23:54 PM
Quote from: HScoach on July 31, 2013, 05:38:26 PM
As much as I'd like the Stagg Bowl played in a warm weather setting, the vast majority of D3 schools aren't within driving distance of Texas, or Florida, etc. The location in Virginia is fine.
That's because you guys can drive there with your eyes closed ;D I'd have to fly to Virginia and the cost of a plane ticket is Staggering :o ;D
A little rotation.
Sitting here watching the ESPNU rebroadcast of the game, I'm reminded of Coach Kelchner's (Christopher Newport) remarks at the USAC Media Day on Monday about the size, speed, and physical play of Mt. Union (waxed in the first round). He said that he coached in Division 1, William and Mary I believe, and last year's Mt. Union team could have beaten many D1 teams. Being at the Stagg Bowl last year and being able to rewind plays and study the team more critically, I'd say he's right. All I can say is WOW.
The stadium should be renamed "Larry Kehres' Home Away From Home".
I think Salem is probably fine. If they were going to move, they should move it to a city and maybe get it lined up with the D-II game...sort of like what they did with the men's basketball championships last season. Part of what made that work was having the backdrop of the Final Four, so I'm not sure how it would translate to football. Anyway, a city that has some D-III in the area and would be a decent destination for fans would be DC. Maybe play at Georgetown (I'm not sure Catholic or Gallaudet have big enough venues to host the title game). But really that would be the next best scenario...which may not even be feasible.
For this super hypothetical, none of those three schools has an appropriate venue but Howard's might be.
Sorry, I didn't mean to stir up this dead topic.
Quote from: ADL70 on July 31, 2013, 10:59:07 PM
Sorry, I didn't mean to stir up this dead topic.
It's like a horror movie. You opened the Book of Doom, read the magic words, and now the topic shall run amok.
Yes, Several bids from sunny states have been submitted this year ? I like the ones from Tx and Fl. So Cal would be nice in December too. 8-)
There are always other bids.
Houston and Florida, both hotbeds for Division III football. Unless UMHB makes it you are forcing nearly everyone who locally supports a team to get on a plane or drive for day or more to get there. So Cal? That's even worse.
Quote from: Ron Boerger on November 01, 2013, 01:05:07 PM
Houston and Florida, both hotbeds for Division III football. Unless UMHB makes it you are forcing nearly everyone who locally supports a team to get on a plane or drive for day or more to get there. So Cal? That's even worse.
That is what happen to the island teams..(2004) ? And WE had a few fans show up back in 2004..
Also It would be nice to see the game played in a weather natural sight .. 8-) Sunny So Cal or Fl sounds pretty good to me in December ? ;D
East Tennessee St. has a mini dome that seats 8,000 and would be perfect sized. Only problem is they don't play anymore(2003). Don't know what condition the turf is in but it would eliminate weather concerns. The triad area is a great sports area also. Just a suggestion since they have all kinds of track meets with 100s of athletes there.
The nice thing about the other bids is that it will give the committee the ability to assess the strengths of Salem versus the other places that want the Bowl. I believe that Salem is still the front runner.
Quote from: regaleagle on November 03, 2013, 12:17:14 AM
East Tennessee St. has a mini dome that seats 8,000 and would be perfect sized. Only problem is they don't play anymore(2003). Don't know what condition the turf is in but it would eliminate weather concerns. The triad area is a great sports area also. Just a suggestion since they have all kinds of track meets with 100s of athletes there.
Part of the reason ETSU shuttered its football stadium was the love/hate relationship with the "minidome". The turf was in very bad shape then. Considering how few of today's college students have ever played on old school AstroTurf, the game would do wonders for the local health care industry.
Yep, played on it. It was terrible but I've heard they're considering bringing football back and that would mean field turf. The dome is funky but it works, just my thoughts.
ETSU is bringing back football, but not sure if next year or the year after. Carl Torbush is HBC (think he had a stint at UNC?)
for the sake of everyone involved I hope they are building a "regular" stadium..
I guess it's the ESPN thing but playing on Saturday would help attendance and temperature. If Friday night is non negotiable then find a dome somewhere to play.
I could be wrong but ain't ever been in doubt.
Playing afternoon games is a "thing" for many/most D3 programs. Noon, 1, 1:30, 2-- times like that are the norms, but of course, some teams have lights and like to use them.
ESPN doesn't have to televise the game, so I'm sure its a "take what you can get" situation for the time slot (I'd assume the Stagg Bowl is not a top money maker for them). Is it cold in Salem in December? Yes. Is it unbearable? Not when a great college football game is being played, D3 or not. Salem's not exactly the Yukon in mid December.
But do I agree attendance would be better for a Saturday game, more specifically a Saturday afternoon game? Completely.
I hope that the game stays in salem. I have gone the last 5 or 6 years, including the blizzard game. I enjoy it. it is a 6 hour drive for me and i think fans from most d3 areas can get there in about the same amount of time. if it gets moved to a warmer climate than you are likely to lose the non team fans who happen to make the trip like me, since it will become to far to drive and too costly to fly to see a game that you dont have a son playing in. salem supports the game and they want it there and if you had been there for the blizzard game you would have been amazed as to the man-power they put towards having the field ready for them to play that night. yes, it was easier for those of us traveling to have the game on saturday, but taking a friday off and tailgating all day for a 700 game has been fun to me. just wondering how many people in the conversation have actually gone to a game in the last couple of years. would you go if they moved it?
I know I would have loved to go to some of the games in the past few years but being from Texas and without my team being in it would definately not have been smart on my wallet. Having Heard how good the expreience is in Salem makes me feel like it should stay there so I can one day make my way up there and enjoy the experience. Of course if the game came down here to Texas I sure wouldn't mind. :)
Quote from: wesleydad on November 04, 2013, 02:14:10 PM
I hope that the game stays in salem. I have gone the last 5 or 6 years, including the blizzard game. I enjoy it. it is a 6 hour drive for me and i think fans from most d3 areas can get there in about the same amount of time. if it gets moved to a warmer climate than you are likely to lose the non team fans who happen to make the trip like me, since it will become to far to drive and too costly to fly to see a game that you dont have a son playing in. salem supports the game and they want it there and if you had been there for the blizzard game you would have been amazed as to the man-power they put towards having the field ready for them to play that night. yes, it was easier for those of us traveling to have the game on saturday, but taking a friday off and tailgating all day for a 700 game has been fun to me. just wondering how many people in the conversation have actually gone to a game in the last couple of years. would you go if they moved it?
The last UWW/Mount game was cold and rainy, but I feel that adds to the game. It's football. It's December. Liquor-weather, if you will. Tailgate until you get toasty and enjoy the game. And to add to you point about Salem being in a d3 area: there is well over 10, might be over 15 d3 schools in VA, and the states around that have several too. People there love their d3. Last years game I counted well over 25 different d3 shirts, jackets, hats, etc. just on St. Thomas' side of the field.
Quote from: CouchCru4life on November 04, 2013, 02:33:07 PM
I know I would have loved to go to some of the games in the past few years but being from Texas and without my team being in it would definately not have been smart on my wallet. Having Heard how good the expreience is in Salem makes me feel like it should stay there so I can one day make my way up there and enjoy the experience. Of course if the game came down here to Texas I sure wouldn't mind. :)
I wouldn't mind making a 20+ hour trip down there either. It's Texas, by God. 8-)
Personally, having been to Salem ('94) and to Bradenton ('92), I vote for Bradenton...
Realistically, wherever the game is, if I have a dog in it, I'll be there. I'd just LIKE it to be Bradenton again!
Quote from: Bob.Gregg on November 11, 2013, 10:41:57 PM
Personally, having been to Salem ('94) and to Bradenton ('92), I vote for Bradenton...
Realistically, wherever the game is, if I have a dog in it, I'll be there. I'd just LIKE it to be Bradenton again!
Two games twenty years ago, I don't think you can compare it to Salem today at all.
Unless the Global Warming Pundits are using Salem, VA in mid-December as a 'poster child', I absolutely can compare Bradenton & Salem...lol
having been to Salem with all the "WHITE STUFF" >:( :'( and then sunny on the beach with the "other white stuff" :-* no brainer here..
Quote from: Bob.Gregg on November 12, 2013, 09:26:27 AM
Unless the Global Warming Pundits are using Salem, VA in mid-December as a 'poster child', I absolutely can compare Bradenton & Salem...lol
There's no getting around the idea that the weather in Florida or Texas is better than it is in Salem for a vacation.
But let's not forget the primary reason you pick a city is for a football game. Beyond having the support staff that is willing and capable of putting it on, it's also good to know the weather in Va. (or Canton or somewhere in the center of where D-III schools mostly are) is like it is during late-season games in 85% of D-III locales.
Trust me, when W&J played in the two Stagg Bowls, I was NOT on vacation. I will admit that I was on vacation (in Florida) the week AFTER the Bradenton Stagg trip. But I worked my tail off at both venues, thank you very much.
There is nothing about the fact that 2/3rds of the rest of the D-3 geography has similar weather to Salem that makes me like working, or the team I'm following playing, in that weather, particularly when the Salem turf was MUD! As granted earlier, I'd like to have to suffer in Salem again soon, but GIVEN a choice, I'd choose Bradenton!
Bob,
I think Keith understands what it is like to work at the Stagg Bowl. There's no need to be snippy.
Quote from: Bob.Gregg on November 13, 2013, 07:02:00 PM
Trust me, when W&J played in the two Stagg Bowls, I was NOT on vacation. I will admit that I was on vacation (in Florida) the week AFTER the Bradenton Stagg trip. But I worked my tail off at both venues, thank you very much.
There is nothing about the fact that 2/3rds of the rest of the D-3 geography has similar weather to Salem that makes me like working, or the team I'm following playing, in that weather, particularly when the Salem turf was MUD! As granted earlier, I'd like to have to suffer in Salem again soon, but GIVEN a choice, I'd choose Bradenton!
Fair enough.
I don't think it's worth the guarantee of good weather to put the game in some outpost that doesn't have a connection to D-III, and isn't in easy travel distance for the majority of D-III teams that are based in the Northeast, mid-Atlantic and Midwest. I think I stated the rest of my opinions on this board pretty clearly, so no need to restate other than to say Salem isn't perfect, but I haven't heard a better suggestion.
K-Mack, despite what the publisher of D3football.com read into my reply, I had no SNIPPY intentions whatsoever.
I appreciate all the work you, and he, do for D-III Football, at the Stagg Bowl and all year long.
I don't remember seeing this thread before, though I do see that it's been around for a while. I simply, and honestly, answered that given a choice to cover another Stagg Bowl, I'd prefer to repeat the experience of working in Bradenton vs. the experience of working in Salem.
Let's move the Purple Raiders to D-II, or I-FCS, and move the Stagg Bowl to Alliance, the REAL D-III Title Town!
Just throwing this out here: How about Selby Stadium at OWU? Close enough to Columbus, historic and can hold 9,000 and has a large press box.
Quote from: smedindy on November 21, 2013, 11:31:55 AM
Just throwing this out here: How about Selby Stadium at OWU? Close enough to Columbus, historic and can hold 9,000 and has a large press box.
If you are going to host it in OH, might as well use Fawcett Stadium (http://www.profootballhof.com/enshrinement/fawcett_stadium.aspx) in Canton. ;)
(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-TW5HnSrExv8%2FUls2i46jf_I%2FAAAAAAAALUU%2FjHTVezjlY24%2Fs1600%2FDSCF4825.JPG&hash=10b77ec86a4d026ca8e240c89ab21ebfc46f157f)
Quote from: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on November 21, 2013, 01:20:16 PM
Quote from: smedindy on November 21, 2013, 11:31:55 AM
Just throwing this out here: How about Selby Stadium at OWU? Close enough to Columbus, historic and can hold 9,000 and has a large press box.
If you are going to host it in OH, might as well use Fawcett Stadium (http://www.profootballhof.com/enshrinement/fawcett_stadium.aspx) in Canton. ;)
(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-TW5HnSrExv8%2FUls2i46jf_I%2FAAAAAAAALUU%2FjHTVezjlY24%2Fs1600%2FDSCF4825.JPG&hash=10b77ec86a4d026ca8e240c89ab21ebfc46f157f)
The last time this topic got hot and bothered someone promised that Fawcett at Canton was going to be bidding. I guess that fell through.
Quote from: Bob.Gregg on November 19, 2013, 07:47:16 PM
K-Mack, despite what the publisher of D3football.com read into my reply, I had no SNIPPY intentions whatsoever.
I appreciate all the work you, and he, do for D-III Football, at the Stagg Bowl and all year long.
I don't remember seeing this thread before, though I do see that it's been around for a while. I simply, and honestly, answered that given a choice to cover another Stagg Bowl, I'd prefer to repeat the experience of working in Bradenton vs. the experience of working in Salem.
Let's move the Purple Raiders to D-II, or I-FCS, and move the Stagg Bowl to Alliance, the REAL D-III Title Town!
I guess when you put three words in all caps, when I emphasized those words in my head, it came across as snippy.
Quote from: jknezek on November 21, 2013, 02:08:27 PM
Quote from: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on November 21, 2013, 01:20:16 PM
Quote from: smedindy on November 21, 2013, 11:31:55 AM
Just throwing this out here: How about Selby Stadium at OWU? Close enough to Columbus, historic and can hold 9,000 and has a large press box.
If you are going to host it in OH, might as well use Fawcett Stadium (http://www.profootballhof.com/enshrinement/fawcett_stadium.aspx) in Canton. ;)
(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-TW5HnSrExv8%2FUls2i46jf_I%2FAAAAAAAALUU%2FjHTVezjlY24%2Fs1600%2FDSCF4825.JPG&hash=10b77ec86a4d026ca8e240c89ab21ebfc46f157f)
The last time this topic got hot and bothered someone promised that Fawcett at Canton was going to be bidding. I guess that fell through.
I posted that on this topic quite a while ago (going on two years maybe?). Multiple issues arose that prevented the SCVCB to make a bid.
First, the primary driving force within the Visitors & Convention bureau left the organization. The replacement has been much less interested in bidding on the game.
Second, the urgency that Stark County was feeling with the loss of the Ohio HS football championships has dissipated due to the fact that it looks like said championships will only reside in Columbus for two years, and will have a very good chance to be back in Stark County after that.
Third, some of the other community "powers that be" that were pushing them to make a bid on the game have fallen by the wayside in their vigor to procure the game.
That's all I got!
Quote from: skunks_sidekick on November 22, 2013, 01:34:53 PM
I posted that on this topic quite a while ago (going on two years maybe?). Multiple issues arose that prevented the SCVCB to make a bid.
First, the primary driving force within the Visitors & Convention bureau left the organization. The replacement has been much less interested in bidding on the game.
Second, the urgency that Stark County was feeling with the loss of the Ohio HS football championships has dissipated due to the fact that it looks like said championships will only reside in Columbus for two years, and will have a very good chance to be back in Stark County after that.
Third, some of the other community "powers that be" that were pushing them to make a bid on the game have fallen by the wayside in their vigor to procure the game.
That's all I got!
All I can say is that has to be a big plus for Salem. As the example above shows, it's hard to get people to bid on these games, to keep the excitement, to put on a good show, and to keeep that kind of continuity. Salem may not be perfect, but it has shown the ability, the desire, and steadiness to do a good game experience come rain, snow, sleet or hail. Not as easy as simply having the stadium and saying "come play here!".
Quote from: skunks_sidekick on November 22, 2013, 01:34:53 PM
Quote from: jknezek on November 21, 2013, 02:08:27 PM
Quote from: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on November 21, 2013, 01:20:16 PM
Quote from: smedindy on November 21, 2013, 11:31:55 AM
Just throwing this out here: How about Selby Stadium at OWU? Close enough to Columbus, historic and can hold 9,000 and has a large press box.
If you are going to host it in OH, might as well use Fawcett Stadium (http://www.profootballhof.com/enshrinement/fawcett_stadium.aspx) in Canton. ;)
(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-TW5HnSrExv8%2FUls2i46jf_I%2FAAAAAAAALUU%2FjHTVezjlY24%2Fs1600%2FDSCF4825.JPG&hash=10b77ec86a4d026ca8e240c89ab21ebfc46f157f)
The last time this topic got hot and bothered someone promised that Fawcett at Canton was going to be bidding. I guess that fell through.
I posted that on this topic quite a while ago (going on two years maybe?). Multiple issues arose that prevented the SCVCB to make a bid.
First, the primary driving force within the Visitors & Convention bureau left the organization. The replacement has been much less interested in bidding on the game.
Second, the urgency that Stark County was feeling with the loss of the Ohio HS football championships has dissipated due to the fact that it looks like said championships will only reside in Columbus for two years, and will have a very good chance to be back in Stark County after that.
Third, some of the other community "powers that be" that were pushing them to make a bid on the game have fallen by the wayside in their vigor to procure the game.
That's all I got!
so in other words, why not leave it in the city that wants it and has improved the venue almost every year I have gone. It is easy to get to, drivable for most of us that are interested in going even if we dont have a team in the game. I am well aware of other places that have better weather and are nicer to hang out in that may be interested, but I think it might lose some atmosphere, pregame, if it moves.
Quote from: wesleydad on November 22, 2013, 01:42:08 PM
Quote from: skunks_sidekick on November 22, 2013, 01:34:53 PM
Quote from: jknezek on November 21, 2013, 02:08:27 PM
Quote from: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on November 21, 2013, 01:20:16 PM
Quote from: smedindy on November 21, 2013, 11:31:55 AM
Just throwing this out here: How about Selby Stadium at OWU? Close enough to Columbus, historic and can hold 9,000 and has a large press box.
If you are going to host it in OH, might as well use Fawcett Stadium (http://www.profootballhof.com/enshrinement/fawcett_stadium.aspx) in Canton. ;)
(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-TW5HnSrExv8%2FUls2i46jf_I%2FAAAAAAAALUU%2FjHTVezjlY24%2Fs1600%2FDSCF4825.JPG&hash=10b77ec86a4d026ca8e240c89ab21ebfc46f157f)
The last time this topic got hot and bothered someone promised that Fawcett at Canton was going to be bidding. I guess that fell through.
I posted that on this topic quite a while ago (going on two years maybe?). Multiple issues arose that prevented the SCVCB to make a bid.
First, the primary driving force within the Visitors & Convention bureau left the organization. The replacement has been much less interested in bidding on the game.
Second, the urgency that Stark County was feeling with the loss of the Ohio HS football championships has dissipated due to the fact that it looks like said championships will only reside in Columbus for two years, and will have a very good chance to be back in Stark County after that.
Third, some of the other community "powers that be" that were pushing them to make a bid on the game have fallen by the wayside in their vigor to procure the game.
That's all I got!
so in other words, why not leave it in the city that wants it and has improved the venue almost every year I have gone. It is easy to get to, drivable for most of us that are interested in going even if we dont have a team in the game. I am well aware of other places that have better weather and are nicer to hang out in that may be interested, but I think it might lose some atmosphere, pregame, if it moves.
I like it in Salem. Closer to me than Canton. :)
Quote from: wesleydad on November 22, 2013, 01:42:08 PM
so in other words, why not leave it in the city that wants it and has improved the venue almost every year I have gone. It is easy to get to, drivable for most of us that are interested in going even if we dont have a team in the game. I am well aware of other places that have better weather and are nicer to hang out in that may be interested, but I think it might lose some atmosphere, pregame, if it moves.
Drivable? The South will not rise again. The West is here to stay. If you're not going to make it drivable for the West teams that make it to the title game, at least let move the game somewhere easier to fly to. Maybe someplace warm. Maybe in a Dome.
Quote from: AO on November 22, 2013, 02:16:48 PM
Quote from: wesleydad on November 22, 2013, 01:42:08 PM
so in other words, why not leave it in the city that wants it and has improved the venue almost every year I have gone. It is easy to get to, drivable for most of us that are interested in going even if we dont have a team in the game. I am well aware of other places that have better weather and are nicer to hang out in that may be interested, but I think it might lose some atmosphere, pregame, if it moves.
Drivable? The South will not rise again. The West is here to stay. If you're not going to make it drivable for the West teams that make it to title game, at least let move the game somewhere easier to fly to. Maybe someplace warm. Maybe in a Dome.
No one out west bid that I'm aware of. I think Bradenton and someplace in Texas were listed. Bradenton is about an hour or so south of Tampa airport. Not sure exactly where in Texas they were talking, but looking at the weather forecast for UMHB's game this week, that is no guarantee of good weather. I guess a dome would guarantee the weather, but if you don't fill a dome, it loses all atmosphere as the space feels empty and sterile.
There are lots of places it could be played, but those places need to bid and demonstrate they can do better or be better than Salem. Backed by ING Academy, I'm assuming Bradenton will be a real competitor. But it will definitely eliminate the casual, within driving distance, D3 fan that seems like a good proportion of those in Salem every year. I guess only holding the game down there for a few years would determine if it is a good trade off.
I'm not a huge proponent of Salem, but I do appreciate that they have done right by the game for so many years. It would be big shoes for someone else to fill for a niche event.
As long as my team is in it and the radio station picks up the plane ticket and misc expenses, I could care less where it is.....
I have the least football venue knowledge of anyone in this discussion, but being dumb does not seem to stop me from running my...uh... fingers on the keyboard
The folk at Salem have done a better job each time i have been to the Stagg, it is good, homey, and improves woith each visit
i have been to the NCAA D2 champ game in Florence Alabama, the D1aa when it was in Chatanooga, Tn and the NAIA in Rome Ga.......by far the best fun, nicest folk, and most professional crowd was in Salem.
Where else can u go to see a NCAA championship football game, go to a gun show, see the Shenandoah Valley, and meet the folk you read (occasioanlly write to) on this list.
The Stagg in Salem has the best food, albiet some of it hauled in by the ODAK folk, best atmosphere of any place i been....
And AO... the south Has risen again
respectfully leave it in Va
keep the faith
Quote from: AO on November 22, 2013, 02:16:48 PM
Quote from: wesleydad on November 22, 2013, 01:42:08 PM
so in other words, why not leave it in the city that wants it and has improved the venue almost every year I have gone. It is easy to get to, drivable for most of us that are interested in going even if we dont have a team in the game. I am well aware of other places that have better weather and are nicer to hang out in that may be interested, but I think it might lose some atmosphere, pregame, if it moves.
Drivable? The South will not rise again. The West is here to stay. If you're not going to make it drivable for the West teams that make it to the title game, at least let move the game somewhere easier to fly to. Maybe someplace warm. Maybe in a Dome.
AO, if your team is not in it would you go to it? if not then it does not matter where it is. There are many of us who have attended that do not have a team in the game and have had great times there. If it is moved to Fla or Tx or out west than I would figure most of us do not go. Now I am sure we may be replaced by locals where ever it is moved to, but Salem does a great job with the game and have made improvements each year I have been there. They like the game and the locals support it. I say leave it where it is so that most fans of D3 football who want to attend may do so without going broke.
Quote from: wesleydad on December 01, 2013, 07:37:33 PM
Quote from: AO on November 22, 2013, 02:16:48 PM
Quote from: wesleydad on November 22, 2013, 01:42:08 PM
so in other words, why not leave it in the city that wants it and has improved the venue almost every year I have gone. It is easy to get to, drivable for most of us that are interested in going even if we dont have a team in the game. I am well aware of other places that have better weather and are nicer to hang out in that may be interested, but I think it might lose some atmosphere, pregame, if it moves.
Drivable? The South will not rise again. The West is here to stay. If you're not going to make it drivable for the West teams that make it to the title game, at least let move the game somewhere easier to fly to. Maybe someplace warm. Maybe in a Dome.
AO, if your team is not in it would you go to it? if not then it does not matter where it is. There are many of us who have attended that do not have a team in the game and have had great times there. If it is moved to Fla or Tx or out west than I would figure most of us do not go. Now I am sure we may be replaced by locals where ever it is moved to, but Salem does a great job with the game and have made improvements each year I have been there. They like the game and the locals support it. I say leave it where it is so that most fans of D3 football who want to attend may do so without going broke.
Based upon the higher attendance in the MidWest I'd think there would be more neutral fans attending the Stagg in Ohio, Illinois or Minnesota. It's an event deserving of being showcased across the nation.
Quote from: AO on December 01, 2013, 08:18:13 PM
Quote from: wesleydad on December 01, 2013, 07:37:33 PM
Quote from: AO on November 22, 2013, 02:16:48 PM
Quote from: wesleydad on November 22, 2013, 01:42:08 PM
so in other words, why not leave it in the city that wants it and has improved the venue almost every year I have gone. It is easy to get to, drivable for most of us that are interested in going even if we dont have a team in the game. I am well aware of other places that have better weather and are nicer to hang out in that may be interested, but I think it might lose some atmosphere, pregame, if it moves.
Drivable? The South will not rise again. The West is here to stay. If you're not going to make it drivable for the West teams that make it to the title game, at least let move the game somewhere easier to fly to. Maybe someplace warm. Maybe in a Dome.
AO, if your team is not in it would you go to it? if not then it does not matter where it is. There are many of us who have attended that do not have a team in the game and have had great times there. If it is moved to Fla or Tx or out west than I would figure most of us do not go. Now I am sure we may be replaced by locals where ever it is moved to, but Salem does a great job with the game and have made improvements each year I have been there. They like the game and the locals support it. I say leave it where it is so that most fans of D3 football who want to attend may do so without going broke.
Based upon the higher attendance in the MidWest I'd think there would be more neutral fans attending the Stagg in Ohio, Illinois or Minnesota. It's an event deserving of being showcased across the nation.
We all agree. Now what we need is some local community in one of those states to step forward and top the effort that Salem VA has put forward.
I would encourage UMHB to put together a bid and see what happens.
Quote from: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on November 21, 2013, 01:20:16 PM
Quote from: smedindy on November 21, 2013, 11:31:55 AM
Just throwing this out here: How about Selby Stadium at OWU? Close enough to Columbus, historic and can hold 9,000 and has a large press box.
If you are going to host it in OH, might as well use Fawcett Stadium (http://www.profootballhof.com/enshrinement/fawcett_stadium.aspx) in Canton. ;)
(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-TW5HnSrExv8%2FUls2i46jf_I%2FAAAAAAAALUU%2FjHTVezjlY24%2Fs1600%2FDSCF4825.JPG&hash=10b77ec86a4d026ca8e240c89ab21ebfc46f157f)
Funny thing about that field is that a lot of team radios can't reach the box from across the field. They are too far. Wesley's wasn't even close when they played there several years ago. The assistants had to sit in the stands!
-Ski
Quote from: Teamski on December 02, 2013, 01:54:09 AM
Quote from: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on November 21, 2013, 01:20:16 PM
Quote from: smedindy on November 21, 2013, 11:31:55 AM
Just throwing this out here: How about Selby Stadium at OWU? Close enough to Columbus, historic and can hold 9,000 and has a large press box.
If you are going to host it in OH, might as well use Fawcett Stadium (http://www.profootballhof.com/enshrinement/fawcett_stadium.aspx) in Canton. ;)
(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-TW5HnSrExv8%2FUls2i46jf_I%2FAAAAAAAALUU%2FjHTVezjlY24%2Fs1600%2FDSCF4825.JPG&hash=10b77ec86a4d026ca8e240c89ab21ebfc46f157f)
Funny thing about that field is that a lot of team radios can't reach the box from across the field. They are too far. Wesley's wasn't even close when they played there several years ago. The assistants had to sit in the stands!
-Ski
Interesting. Who did Wesley play in Fawcett? Malone or Walsh maybe?
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 02, 2013, 08:32:04 AM
Quote from: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on December 02, 2013, 07:01:01 AM
Quote from: Teamski on December 02, 2013, 01:54:09 AM
Quote from: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on November 21, 2013, 01:20:16 PM
Quote from: smedindy on November 21, 2013, 11:31:55 AM
Just throwing this out here: How about Selby Stadium at OWU? Close enough to Columbus, historic and can hold 9,000 and has a large press box.
If you are going to host it in OH, might as well use Fawcett Stadium (http://www.profootballhof.com/enshrinement/fawcett_stadium.aspx) in Canton. ;)
(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-TW5HnSrExv8%2FUls2i46jf_I%2FAAAAAAAALUU%2FjHTVezjlY24%2Fs1600%2FDSCF4825.JPG&hash=10b77ec86a4d026ca8e240c89ab21ebfc46f157f)
Funny thing about that field is that a lot of team radios can't reach the box from across the field. They are too far. Wesley's wasn't even close when they played there several years ago. The assistants had to sit in the stands!
-Ski
Interesting. Who did Wesley play in Fawcett? Malone or Walsh maybe?
:)
Perhaps Mount Union should have been more gracious hosts and given their guests (the visiting team) the better accommodations.
I thought that he was being more polite than he needed to be. ;)
Ralph, I believe Ski was talking about playing Walsh at Fawcett in 2011 (http://www.d3football.com/seasons/2011/contrib/20111022a1s1el), not at Mt. Union.
The Press Box at Mt. Union is on the Visitor Sidelines, so I don't think headset communications would be an issue there.
Your response beat me to it. Sorry about the sarcastic remark. I apologize. Only belatedly did I realize that your specific request was for more information.
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 02, 2013, 08:40:39 AM
Your response beat me to it. Sorry about the sarcastic remark. I apologize. Only belatedly did I realize that your specific request was for more information.
No apology needed. It's all good. ;D
Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 02, 2013, 12:14:50 AM
I would encourage UMHB to put together a bid and see what happens.
I thought they already put in the bid with Shenadoah (TX)?
Quote from: couchcru11 on December 02, 2013, 11:10:31 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 02, 2013, 12:14:50 AM
I would encourage UMHB to put together a bid and see what happens.
I thought they already put in the bid with Shenadoah (TX)?
I would encourage them to bid with their on-campus stadium if the current bid is not accepted.
I don't have a problem with continuing the Stagg Bowl in Salem. Given that the majority of DIII programs are on the east coast it makes sense to hold the championship game there. Yes, I'd rather see warmer weather but moving some place further removed from the base of the the division would probably hurt attendance more than help it. This way it's close enough to many DIII programs and their fan base so they can attend even when their particular team is not participating.
Quote from: badgerwarhawk on December 02, 2013, 12:12:49 PM
I don't have a problem with continuing the Stagg Bowl in Salem. Given that the majority of DIII programs are on the east coast it makes sense to hold the championship game there. Yes, I'd rather see warmer weather but moving some place further removed from the base of the the division would probably hurt attendance more than help it. This way it's close enough to many DIII programs and their fan base so they can attend even when their particular team is not participating.
The base isn't in Salem. The ODAC and USA South are nearby, and that's pretty much it.
(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.profootballreferee.com%2Fcamps_clinics%2FD3_football_map.gif&hash=ad2f663273033a2a8c1ace9d929c19d5be2c1123)
If someone created a graphic from that map that made the team names with higher attendance (http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/Attendance/2012.pdf)larger, you'd see the Midwest and not the East as the base of D3.
Quote from: AO on December 02, 2013, 12:24:04 PM
Quote from: badgerwarhawk on December 02, 2013, 12:12:49 PM
I don't have a problem with continuing the Stagg Bowl in Salem. Given that the majority of DIII programs are on the east coast it makes sense to hold the championship game there. Yes, I'd rather see warmer weather but moving some place further removed from the base of the the division would probably hurt attendance more than help it. This way it's close enough to many DIII programs and their fan base so they can attend even when their particular team is not participating.
The base isn't in Salem. The ODAC and USA South are nearby, and that's pretty much it.
(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.profootballreferee.com%2Fcamps_clinics%2FD3_football_map.gif&hash=ad2f663273033a2a8c1ace9d929c19d5be2c1123)
If someone created a graphic from that map that made the team names with higher attendance (http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/Attendance/2012.pdf)larger, you'd see the Midwest and not the East as the base of D3.
Higher attendance such as the Old Dominion Athletic Conference? In Virginia?
Rank Division III Teams Games Attendance Average In Avg.
1. Minnesota Intercollegiate 9 48 161,870 3,372 -131
2. Old Dominion Athletic # 8 41 121,609 2,966 -532
Quote from: AO on December 02, 2013, 12:24:04 PM
Quote from: badgerwarhawk on December 02, 2013, 12:12:49 PM
I don't have a problem with continuing the Stagg Bowl in Salem. Given that the majority of DIII programs are on the east coast it makes sense to hold the championship game there. Yes, I'd rather see warmer weather but moving some place further removed from the base of the the division would probably hurt attendance more than help it. This way it's close enough to many DIII programs and their fan base so they can attend even when their particular team is not participating.
The base isn't in Salem. The ODAC and USA South are nearby, and that's pretty much it.
(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.profootballreferee.com%2Fcamps_clinics%2FD3_football_map.gif&hash=ad2f663273033a2a8c1ace9d929c19d5be2c1123)
If someone created a graphic from that map that made the team names with higher attendance (http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/Attendance/2012.pdf)larger, you'd see the Midwest and not the East as the base of D3.
I think Salem is in a decent location, but I wouldn't mind a rotation. Maybe Chattanooga, TN, Indianpolis, IN, North Texas Somewhere.
If you want North Texas, Allen High School in the Dallas area has a stadium that would be more than sufficiant... holds 18,000
(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.bleacherreport.net%2Fimages_root%2Fslides%2Fphotos%2F003%2F154%2F926%2FAW5P9645RTS11inch_original_crop_650x440.jpg%3F1368551048&hash=79a2abf1fa43e3c0b68660ce90df1c2551cbc72f)
Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 02, 2013, 12:34:51 PM
Quote from: AO on December 02, 2013, 12:24:04 PM
Quote from: badgerwarhawk on December 02, 2013, 12:12:49 PM
I don't have a problem with continuing the Stagg Bowl in Salem. Given that the majority of DIII programs are on the east coast it makes sense to hold the championship game there. Yes, I'd rather see warmer weather but moving some place further removed from the base of the the division would probably hurt attendance more than help it. This way it's close enough to many DIII programs and their fan base so they can attend even when their particular team is not participating.
The base isn't in Salem. The ODAC and USA South are nearby, and that's pretty much it.
(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.profootballreferee.com%2Fcamps_clinics%2FD3_football_map.gif&hash=ad2f663273033a2a8c1ace9d929c19d5be2c1123)
If someone created a graphic from that map that made the team names with higher attendance (http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/Attendance/2012.pdf)larger, you'd see the Midwest and not the East as the base of D3.
Higher attendance such as the Old Dominion Athletic Conference? In Virginia?
Rank Division III Teams Games Attendance Average In Avg.
1. Minnesota Intercollegiate 9 48 161,870 3,372 -131
2. Old Dominion Athletic # 8 41 121,609 2,966 -532
You could obviously do worse than put the game near the ODAC, but the Stagg won't see the full attendance benefit since the ODAC doesn't look capable of sending another team to the game. If you really want to create atmosphere at the game, don't worry about the neutral fans.
AO,
I'd check out the graphic if you created it (and could you also make it so that you can drop teams off the map and we can use it to see who's within 500 miles come playoff time?) but I'd be willing to bet someone is just not going to make it appear.
Would also be willing to hear where you think it should be (with specifics) and if there's any interest anywhere.
A few things that are understood by longtime readers of this thread:
1) Salem is not the geographic center of D-III. That'd be closer to Columbus, Ohio.
2) There are places with better weather than Salem. Salem does come close to weather conditions in most of the D-III playing country.
3) If somebody wants to outbid Salem for the game, somebody's going to have to want the game as much as it does.
So if you were just speaking in generalities, fine. There are more teams in the midwest than in Virginia. But beyond that, where would be a good place, and what community has the mix of an appropriately-sized facility, etc. to make it work.
Salem can be improved on, but there's no no-brainer out there, IMO, and no community that has shown interest that has any improvement to offer besides better weather but longer travel.
Quote from: K-Mack on December 02, 2013, 03:24:17 PM
AO,
I'd check out the graphic if you created it (and could you also make it so that you can drop teams off the map and we can use it to see who's within 500 miles come playoff time?) but I'd be willing to bet someone is just not going to make it appear.
Would also be willing to hear where you think it should be (with specifics) and if there's any interest anywhere.
A few things that are understood by longtime readers of this thread:
1) Salem is not the geographic center of D-III. That'd be closer to Columbus, Ohio.
2) There are places with better weather than Salem. Salem does come close to weather conditions in most of the D-III playing country.
3) If somebody wants to outbid Salem for the game, somebody's going to have to want the game as much as it does.
So if you were just speaking in generalities, fine. There are more teams in the midwest than in Virginia. But beyond that, where would be a good place, and what community has the mix of an appropriately-sized facility, etc. to make it work.
Salem can be improved on, but there's no no-brainer out there, IMO, and no community that has shown interest that has any improvement to offer besides better weather but longer travel.
The graphic would be fun, but the data speaks for itself. Salem loses the "number of teams with good attendance within 500 miles" to Columbus, Indianapolis, Chicago and Minneapolis. I think the value of moving the Stagg around the country to different/bigger/hometown audiences outweighs whatever other advantage Salem might have. I also think you could have a good atmosphere with 10,000 fans in Lucas Oil Stadium or the new Metrodome. Bethel had 7500 in attendance playing in the Dome last week. It didn't require years of planning and a perfect bid to host a game there.
I think you would get a ton of casual D3 interest in the game if it were in a place like Indy or Columbus (for instance, me) and probably boost the attendance of the game a little, but enough to make it worth playing in a place like LOS? I don't know. There's something about playing in a cavernous stadium with 20% capacity (if that) that I think takes away from the atmosphere a bit.
The upside to a place like Minneapolis is that it's easy to get to (relative to Salem anyway), but the downside is the same as Salem...you're kind of off center from the bulk of the D3 fan base. Are there going to be significantly more people attracted to a Minneapolis Stagg Bowl that doesn't feature a MIAC or WIAC team than there would be for the same game in Salem? I'm not sure there would be.
Quote from: AO on December 02, 2013, 04:00:06 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 02, 2013, 03:24:17 PM
AO,
I'd check out the graphic if you created it (and could you also make it so that you can drop teams off the map and we can use it to see who's within 500 miles come playoff time?) but I'd be willing to bet someone is just not going to make it appear.
Would also be willing to hear where you think it should be (with specifics) and if there's any interest anywhere.
A few things that are understood by longtime readers of this thread:
1) Salem is not the geographic center of D-III. That'd be closer to Columbus, Ohio.
2) There are places with better weather than Salem. Salem does come close to weather conditions in most of the D-III playing country.
3) If somebody wants to outbid Salem for the game, somebody's going to have to want the game as much as it does.
So if you were just speaking in generalities, fine. There are more teams in the midwest than in Virginia. But beyond that, where would be a good place, and what community has the mix of an appropriately-sized facility, etc. to make it work.
Salem can be improved on, but there's no no-brainer out there, IMO, and no community that has shown interest that has any improvement to offer besides better weather but longer travel.
The graphic would be fun, but the data speaks for itself. Salem loses the "number of teams with good attendance within 500 miles" to Columbus, Indianapolis, Chicago and Minneapolis. I think the value of moving the Stagg around the country to different/bigger/hometown audiences outweighs whatever other advantage Salem might have. I also think you could have a good atmosphere with 10,000 fans in Lucas Oil Stadium or the new Metrodome. Bethel had 7500 in attendance playing in the Dome last week. It didn't require years of planning and a perfect bid to host a game there.
It does require
A bid, something that wasn't submitted this year. Your fantasy isn't a bad idea, but until places start to bid it simply CAN'T happen. As far as we know, the choices are Shenandoah Texas, Bradenton FL, and Salem VA. Maybe some others bid, but it doesn't appear like your favorites show the inclination to participate.
The last four sites have been OH, AL, FL, and Salem VA (back to 1973 in total). Kings Island OH had it for two years in '83 and '84 before it returned to Phenix City AL. So with the exception of those two years, the Stagg is as close to where you want it as it has ever been.
As for not needing a perfect bid, I agree. But to become the champ you have to knock off the champ. That means the bid needs to be better than Salem's. Until it happens, this is just a never ending whine. We can't force other places to bid or the NCAA to award it to places that show no interest in hosting.
Quote from: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on December 02, 2013, 08:38:10 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 02, 2013, 08:32:04 AM
Quote from: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on December 02, 2013, 07:01:01 AM
Quote from: Teamski on December 02, 2013, 01:54:09 AM
Quote from: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on November 21, 2013, 01:20:16 PM
Quote from: smedindy on November 21, 2013, 11:31:55 AM
Just throwing this out here: How about Selby Stadium at OWU? Close enough to Columbus, historic and can hold 9,000 and has a large press box.
If you are going to host it in OH, might as well use Fawcett Stadium (http://www.profootballhof.com/enshrinement/fawcett_stadium.aspx) in Canton. ;)
(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-TW5HnSrExv8%2FUls2i46jf_I%2FAAAAAAAALUU%2FjHTVezjlY24%2Fs1600%2FDSCF4825.JPG&hash=10b77ec86a4d026ca8e240c89ab21ebfc46f157f)
Funny thing about that field is that a lot of team radios can't reach the box from across the field. They are too far. Wesley's wasn't even close when they played there several years ago. The assistants had to sit in the stands!
-Ski
Interesting. Who did Wesley play in Fawcett? Malone or Walsh maybe?
:)
Perhaps Mount Union should have been more gracious hosts and given their guests (the visiting team) the better accommodations.
I thought that he was being more polite than he needed to be. ;)
Ralph, I believe Ski was talking about playing Walsh at Fawcett in 2011 (http://www.d3football.com/seasons/2011/contrib/20111022a1s1el), not at Mt. Union.
The Press Box at Mt. Union is on the Visitor Sidelines, so I don't think headset communications would be an issue there.
It was against Walsh that year. You had to be in the middle of the field before we could get the headsets to work. No such problems at Alliance.....
-Ski
Quote from: jknezek on December 02, 2013, 04:16:49 PM
It does require A bid, something that wasn't submitted this year. Your fantasy isn't a bad idea, but until places start to bid it simply CAN'T happen. As far as we know, the choices are Shenandoah Texas, Bradenton FL, and Salem VA. Maybe some others bid, but it doesn't appear like your favorites show the inclination to participate.
The last four sites have been OH, AL, FL, and Salem VA (back to 1973 in total). Kings Island OH had it for two years in '83 and '84 before it returned to Phenix City AL. So with the exception of those two years, the Stagg is as close to where you want it as it has ever been.
As for not needing a perfect bid, I agree. But to become the champ you have to knock off the champ. That means the bid needs to be better than Salem's. Until it happens, this is just a never ending whine. We can't force other places to bid or the NCAA to award it to places that show no interest in hosting.
They don't rotate venues for the Olympics, the Final Four, the World Cup and the Super Bowl because this year's host knocked off the previous host. I think you'd see more bids once they actually start moving the game around. Right now, it hardly seems worth it as the status quo is easier and familiar.
Quote from: AO on December 02, 2013, 04:27:45 PM
Quote from: jknezek on December 02, 2013, 04:16:49 PM
It does require A bid, something that wasn't submitted this year. Your fantasy isn't a bad idea, but until places start to bid it simply CAN'T happen. As far as we know, the choices are Shenandoah Texas, Bradenton FL, and Salem VA. Maybe some others bid, but it doesn't appear like your favorites show the inclination to participate.
The last four sites have been OH, AL, FL, and Salem VA (back to 1973 in total). Kings Island OH had it for two years in '83 and '84 before it returned to Phenix City AL. So with the exception of those two years, the Stagg is as close to where you want it as it has ever been.
As for not needing a perfect bid, I agree. But to become the champ you have to knock off the champ. That means the bid needs to be better than Salem's. Until it happens, this is just a never ending whine. We can't force other places to bid or the NCAA to award it to places that show no interest in hosting.
They don't rotate venues for the Olympics, the Final Four, the World Cup and the Super Bowl because this year's host knocked off the previous host. I think you'd see more bids once they actually start moving the game around. Right now, it hardly seems worth it as the status quo is easier and familiar.
I think we have a difference in desirability and scale that you are ignoring. Won't even mention the prestige and the ability to leverage otherwise impossible to get tax payer dollars into infrastructure development. But I do acknowledge that the lack of bidders could be attributable to a lack of success in bidding. Not sure if there were more bidders in the past or not. That being said, I think a lot is explained by the post about Canton a few pages back. For a while there were people in charge that wanted it, then they weren't in charge and now no one is interested. There just isn't much bang for buck, except for a community like Salem.
I think Bradenton, backed by IMG, will be a legit contender. Doesn't help what you want, but it may show that the game can be moved. Something to keep an eye on, anyway.
Quote from: AO on December 02, 2013, 04:00:06 PM
The graphic would be fun, but the data speaks for itself. Salem loses the "number of teams with good attendance within 500 miles" to Columbus, Indianapolis, Chicago and Minneapolis. I think the value of moving the Stagg around the country to different/bigger/hometown audiences outweighs whatever other advantage Salem might have. I also think you could have a good atmosphere with 10,000 fans in Lucas Oil Stadium or the new Metrodome. Bethel had 7500 in attendance playing in the Dome last week. It didn't require years of planning and a perfect bid to host a game there.
Fine. I respectfully disagree. I don't have a problem with the Stagg being played somewhere else, but I wouldn't move it just to move it, and I don't think moving it for a possible small bump in attendance outweighs the need to have it in a community that has the volunteer support to pulled
I also think 500 miles is a wide net to cast. Boston is less than 500 miles from D.C., but New York (5-6 hours) is about as far as I'd drive without a super-compelling reason to go. Maybe 300 miles is more reasonable to think it has a major effect on fan draw.
But again, we all concede that geography is not Salem's strong suit, except in comparison to being more drivable than Florida and Texas.
Quote from: wally_wabash on December 02, 2013, 04:12:33 PM
I think you would get a ton of casual D3 interest in the game if it were in a place like Indy or Columbus (for instance, me) and probably boost the attendance of the game a little, but enough to make it worth playing in a place like LOS? I don't know. There's something about playing in a cavernous stadium with 20% capacity (if that) that I think takes away from the atmosphere a bit.
The upside to a place like Minneapolis is that it's easy to get to (relative to Salem anyway), but the downside is the same as Salem...you're kind of off center from the bulk of the D3 fan base. Are there going to be significantly more people attracted to a Minneapolis Stagg Bowl that doesn't feature a MIAC or WIAC team than there would be for the same game in Salem? I'm not sure there would be.
I definitely don't want it played in too big a stadium. In Columbus, a 20,000-seat place like where the Crew play (not sure if that soccer stadium can accommodate football) is about as big as I'd go until the attendance numbers show that D-III needs that many seats.
Minneapolis, or Indianapolis, have some advantages, like being easier to get to by plane. But the drawback is that in the bigger cities, the news stations and volunteer organizations might not care as much. It's important for the Stagg Bowl to be treated like an important event and not get lost among all the other pro and big-college things going on in town. If it were here where I work, we might advance it and cover it the day of the game. It would be buried on TV behind the story about the time a Redskins player farted.
Quote from: AO on December 02, 2013, 04:27:45 PM
Quote from: jknezek on December 02, 2013, 04:16:49 PM
It does require A bid, something that wasn't submitted this year. Your fantasy isn't a bad idea, but until places start to bid it simply CAN'T happen. As far as we know, the choices are Shenandoah Texas, Bradenton FL, and Salem VA. Maybe some others bid, but it doesn't appear like your favorites show the inclination to participate.
The last four sites have been OH, AL, FL, and Salem VA (back to 1973 in total). Kings Island OH had it for two years in '83 and '84 before it returned to Phenix City AL. So with the exception of those two years, the Stagg is as close to where you want it as it has ever been.
As for not needing a perfect bid, I agree. But to become the champ you have to knock off the champ. That means the bid needs to be better than Salem's. Until it happens, this is just a never ending whine. We can't force other places to bid or the NCAA to award it to places that show no interest in hosting.
They don't rotate venues for the Olympics, the Final Four, the World Cup and the Super Bowl because this year's host knocked off the previous host. I think you'd see more bids once they actually start moving the game around. Right now, it hardly seems worth it as the status quo is easier and familiar.
The big point jknezek seems to get but AO seems to be missing is that somewhere else has to want the game before the NCAA will move the game.
I'm sure there are sites that could do good things for the game, but until they match or exceed the interest in the game that Salem has, they won't be the ideal sites, nor would they actually be the sites.
Quote from: K-Mack on December 03, 2013, 05:00:12 PM
I don't have a problem with the Stagg being played somewhere else, but I wouldn't move it just to move it, and I don't think moving it for a possible small bump in attendance outweighs the need to have it in a community that has the volunteer support to pulled
Wouldn't putting the game in a larger city that's easier to get to make it easier to find volunteers?
Quote from: K-Mack on December 03, 2013, 05:00:12 PM
I definitely don't want it played in too big a stadium. In Columbus, a 20,000-seat place like where the Crew play (not sure if that soccer stadium can accommodate football) is about as big as I'd go until the attendance numbers show that D-III needs that many seats.
I too like venues that fit the size the of the crowd, but having been to several Minnesota high school prep bowls in the Dome, a crowd of 10,000 can get plenty loud. The fans aren't worried about the weather, parking, waiting in lines at restrooms or finding a good seat. It's also pretty fun to play in a big time venue even if the crowd isn't similarly big.
Quote from: K-Mack on December 03, 2013, 05:00:12 PM
Minneapolis, or Indianapolis, have some advantages, like being easier to get to by plane. But the drawback is that in the bigger cities, the news stations and volunteer organizations might not care as much. It's important for the Stagg Bowl to be treated like an important event and not get lost among all the other pro and big-college things going on in town. If it were here where I work, we might advance it and cover it the day of the game. It would be buried on TV behind the story about the time a Redskins player farted.
I'm sure you've talked to Pat about this before, but I think last year's basketball tournament in Atlanta should alleviate some of your worries about media coverage. If the big newspaper in town doesn't cover it now, why is it a bad thing to get it covered on the day of the game at least?
Since we're discussing fantasy ideas that probably have 0 chance of happening, what about combining it with a D1 bowl game? I'm not suggesting combining all the title games like basketball tried, but what if you made a double header with one of the early bowl games (say the Military Bowl in Annapolis)? You could get a boost in attendance from the D1 fans which wouldn't make a 34k seat stadium seem so empty, it'd still be in prime D3 territory, and it's close to DC so fans could easily explore there.
Quote from: AO on December 03, 2013, 05:24:55 PM
I'm sure you've talked to Pat about this before, but I think last year's basketball tournament in Atlanta should alleviate some of your worries about media coverage. If the big newspaper in town doesn't cover it now, why is it a bad thing to get it covered on the day of the game at least?
This only worked because all three games were played in the same city and the NCAA relentlessly promoted it. At football, you don't have football semifinals two nights earlier to promote your D2 and D3 championships with. If you just put the D3 MBB championship game in Atlanta without the rest around it, it doesn't draw more than a couple thousand, and nobody locally covers it.
As a long-standing objector to the western Pennsylvania District High School championships being played at cavernous Heinz Field (68,000 seats) with no more than 6-7,000 in the house during any of the four games, a crowd of less than a third of stadium capacity would be, and look, bad. Sadly, in a stadium like the MN Dome, etc, a crowd several thousand more than Salem handles would look significantly worse that the full house in VA.......just my 2 cents worth.
Getting close to "beating a dead horse" time... ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjoMQJf5vKI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjoMQJf5vKI)
Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 03, 2013, 10:22:49 PM
Quote from: AO on December 03, 2013, 05:24:55 PM
I'm sure you've talked to Pat about this before, but I think last year's basketball tournament in Atlanta should alleviate some of your worries about media coverage. If the big newspaper in town doesn't cover it now, why is it a bad thing to get it covered on the day of the game at least?
This only worked because all three games were played in the same city and the NCAA relentlessly promoted it. At football, you don't have football semifinals two nights earlier to promote your D2 and D3 championships with. If you just put the D3 MBB championship game in Atlanta without the rest around it, it doesn't draw more than a couple thousand, and nobody locally covers it.
Nobody locally covers it? You were initially skeptical of the coverage it would get regardless of the NCAA promotion. If the Salem local media puts the Stagg on the front page of the newspaper and has it as the feature story on the local evening news, does it really help the national recognition of D3? Maybe you could hire fake reporters in a bigger city to ask questions to the players if the player experience is what you're after here. You're not going to grow the brand while keeping the game in Salem.
Quote from: AO on December 04, 2013, 08:07:52 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 03, 2013, 10:22:49 PM
Quote from: AO on December 03, 2013, 05:24:55 PM
I'm sure you've talked to Pat about this before, but I think last year's basketball tournament in Atlanta should alleviate some of your worries about media coverage. If the big newspaper in town doesn't cover it now, why is it a bad thing to get it covered on the day of the game at least?
This only worked because all three games were played in the same city and the NCAA relentlessly promoted it. At football, you don't have football semifinals two nights earlier to promote your D2 and D3 championships with. If you just put the D3 MBB championship game in Atlanta without the rest around it, it doesn't draw more than a couple thousand, and nobody locally covers it.
Nobody locally covers it? You were initially skeptical of the coverage it would get regardless of the NCAA promotion. If the Salem local media puts the Stagg on the front page of the newspaper and has it as the feature story on the local evening news, does it really help the national recognition of D3? Maybe you could hire fake reporters in a bigger city to ask questions to the players if the player experience is what you're after here. You're not going to grow the brand while keeping the game in Salem.
EXACTLY!!!
Quote from: AO on December 04, 2013, 08:07:52 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 03, 2013, 10:22:49 PM
Quote from: AO on December 03, 2013, 05:24:55 PM
I'm sure you've talked to Pat about this before, but I think last year's basketball tournament in Atlanta should alleviate some of your worries about media coverage. If the big newspaper in town doesn't cover it now, why is it a bad thing to get it covered on the day of the game at least?
This only worked because all three games were played in the same city and the NCAA relentlessly promoted it. At football, you don't have football semifinals two nights earlier to promote your D2 and D3 championships with. If you just put the D3 MBB championship game in Atlanta without the rest around it, it doesn't draw more than a couple thousand, and nobody locally covers it.
Nobody locally covers it? You were initially skeptical of the coverage it would get regardless of the NCAA promotion. If the Salem local media puts the Stagg on the front page of the newspaper and has it as the feature story on the local evening news, does it really help the national recognition of D3? Maybe you could hire fake reporters in a bigger city to ask questions to the players if the player experience is what you're after here. You're not going to grow the brand while keeping the game in Salem.
Given the growth of D3 football in recent years I'm not sure "growing the brand" is necessarily a top priority. Having a good experience for the student athletes and fans, as well as a competently run event year in and year out that the NCAA has to spend as little time as possible worrying about most likely tops the list. I find having the game on Friday night, an unfortunate necessity thanks to TV schedules, worse for growing the brand and fan interest, than holding it in Salem.
All that being said, I go back to my original idea. In order for someone else to host, they have to bid. And it has to be a competent bid that makes the NCAA reconsider Salem. Until that happens, we are barking up the wrong tree pointing fingers at the NCAA. It's not the NCAA that is keeping the Metrodome or Canton, or anywhere else from bidding...
Quote from: NCF on December 04, 2013, 08:39:00 AM
Quote from: AO on December 04, 2013, 08:07:52 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 03, 2013, 10:22:49 PM
Quote from: AO on December 03, 2013, 05:24:55 PM
I'm sure you've talked to Pat about this before, but I think last year's basketball tournament in Atlanta should alleviate some of your worries about media coverage. If the big newspaper in town doesn't cover it now, why is it a bad thing to get it covered on the day of the game at least?
This only worked because all three games were played in the same city and the NCAA relentlessly promoted it. At football, you don't have football semifinals two nights earlier to promote your D2 and D3 championships with. If you just put the D3 MBB championship game in Atlanta without the rest around it, it doesn't draw more than a couple thousand, and nobody locally covers it.
Nobody locally covers it? You were initially skeptical of the coverage it would get regardless of the NCAA promotion. If the Salem local media puts the Stagg on the front page of the newspaper and has it as the feature story on the local evening news, does it really help the national recognition of D3? Maybe you could hire fake reporters in a bigger city to ask questions to the players if the player experience is what you're after here. You're not going to grow the brand while keeping the game in Salem.
EXACTLY!!!
Say two people who have never been to Salem and weren't in Atlanta ...
Quote from: jknezek on December 04, 2013, 08:46:15 AM
In order for someone else to host, they have to bid. And it has to be a competent bid that makes the NCAA reconsider Salem.
Agreed, absolutely. Let someone put together a better bid, for goodness sakes.
Quote from: AO on December 04, 2013, 08:07:52 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 03, 2013, 10:22:49 PM
Quote from: AO on December 03, 2013, 05:24:55 PM
I'm sure you've talked to Pat about this before, but I think last year's basketball tournament in Atlanta should alleviate some of your worries about media coverage. If the big newspaper in town doesn't cover it now, why is it a bad thing to get it covered on the day of the game at least?
This only worked because all three games were played in the same city and the NCAA relentlessly promoted it. At football, you don't have football semifinals two nights earlier to promote your D2 and D3 championships with. If you just put the D3 MBB championship game in Atlanta without the rest around it, it doesn't draw more than a couple thousand, and nobody locally covers it.
Nobody locally covers it? You were initially skeptical of the coverage it would get regardless of the NCAA promotion. If the Salem local media puts the Stagg on the front page of the newspaper and has it as the feature story on the local evening news, does it really help the national recognition of D3? Maybe you could hire fake reporters in a bigger city to ask questions to the players if the player experience is what you're after here. You're not going to grow the brand while keeping the game in Salem.
If it is "growing the brand" that you're after, then it doesn't matter where the championship game is held. Growing the brand isn't about a couple of extra thousands butts in seats it's about several hundred thousand eyeballs on TV and that game is already on TV. If you want to grow the brand, you've got to get the regular season on TV. And that'll never happen on Saturdays. Probably not on Fridays either because ESPN gets more juice out of showing high school games that feature one or two players from their top 800 recruiting list or whatever. So you've got to get teams to play on goofy nights like Thursdays or Wednesdays and I don't know if that is any good for anybody. And even then I'm assuming that ESPN (or even NBCS, CBSS, or FS1) have any interest at all in shooting those games, which is a Grand Canyon sized leap of faith.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 04, 2013, 09:03:44 AM
Say two people who have never been to Salem and weren't in Atlanta ...
Judging from attendance numbers, I'm not the only person who hasn't found his way over to Salem.
Quote from: wally_wabash on December 04, 2013, 10:00:17 AM
If it is "growing the brand" that you're after, then it doesn't matter where the championship game is held. Growing the brand isn't about a couple of extra thousands butts in seats it's about several hundred thousand eyeballs on TV and that game is already on TV.
Wouldn't you see a local boost to ratings wherever the game is held? I think the in-person stadium experience is also important to grow the number of "D3 converts".
Quote from: AO on December 04, 2013, 10:07:19 AM
Quote from: wally_wabash on December 04, 2013, 10:00:17 AM
If it is "growing the brand" that you're after, then it doesn't matter where the championship game is held. Growing the brand isn't about a couple of extra thousands butts in seats it's about several hundred thousand eyeballs on TV and that game is already on TV.
Wouldn't you see a local boost to ratings wherever the game is held? I think the in-person stadium experience is also important to grow the number of "D3 converts".
I think if there were any kind of significant influence from the location of the championship game on the broadcast ratings, then the network would get behind some kind of effort to put the game where they'll get the most bang for their buck. Not that I'm suggesting ESPN has any kind of influence with the NCAA...nah.
Somehow, I think this whole argument is about a couple of people who don't want to go to Virginia.
Quote from: AO on December 04, 2013, 08:07:52 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 03, 2013, 10:22:49 PM
Quote from: AO on December 03, 2013, 05:24:55 PM
I'm sure you've talked to Pat about this before, but I think last year's basketball tournament in Atlanta should alleviate some of your worries about media coverage. If the big newspaper in town doesn't cover it now, why is it a bad thing to get it covered on the day of the game at least?
This only worked because all three games were played in the same city and the NCAA relentlessly promoted it. At football, you don't have football semifinals two nights earlier to promote your D2 and D3 championships with. If you just put the D3 MBB championship game in Atlanta without the rest around it, it doesn't draw more than a couple thousand, and nobody locally covers it.
Nobody locally covers it? You were initially skeptical of the coverage it would get regardless of the NCAA promotion. If the Salem local media puts the Stagg on the front page of the newspaper and has it as the feature story on the local evening news, does it really help the national recognition of D3? Maybe you could hire fake reporters in a bigger city to ask questions to the players if the player experience is what you're after here. You're not going to grow the brand while keeping the game in Salem.
Who really cares if local media in Salem or anywhere else covers it other than their "normal" gameday ways. The game has a prime time slot on the ESPNU/2 (Really don't know because I actually enjoy my time at the game, weather and all). Millions of people have the chance to watch the game. It's kind of like the FCS Championship in Frisco, TX. Other than people from Frisco, TX who the hell cares about Frisco, TX? I'm sure I'm not the only one that doesn't..
I feel it's the responsibility of the schools within Division 3 to "grow the brand". Division 3 athletics is not a money maker for the NCAA...Division 3 athletics is a money maker for the schools. (Increased enrollment, higher alumni interaction, etc.)
Have MLS stadiums been considered yet? Columbus Crew Stadium in Columbus Ohio would be a good fit. 20K capacity. Put tarps over the endzone seats and capacity would be closer to 14-16K. It'll be close to Mount Union, and a possible drive for most schools.
PPL Park near Philly would be a good pick also. 18,500 Capacity, would be near many schools to. Would think either of those would be better picks than going down to texas or florida unless you are going to Mary-Hardin Baylor's home stadium.
Quote from: jackson5 on December 04, 2013, 04:23:52 PM
Have MLS stadiums been considered yet? Columbus Crew Stadium in Columbus Ohio would be a good fit. 20K capacity. Put tarps over the endzone seats and capacity would be closer to 14-16K. It'll be close to Mount Union, and a possible drive for most schools.
PPL Park near Philly would be a good pick also. 18,500 Capacity, would be near many schools to. Would think either of those would be better picks than going down to texas or florida unless you are going to Mary-Hardin Baylor's home stadium.
PPL is hosting the D1 soccer champs this year. Birmingham (Hoover actually) hosted the last two years. I went to Hoover for the games and was unimpressed. I've been to the Stagg and seen a community get behind the event. It's much better when that happens. We'll see what PPL brings, but PPL hosted the College Rugby Sevens Cup as well and it was pretty much empty in the stadium.
Quote from: smedindy on December 04, 2013, 11:04:29 AM
Somehow, I think this whole argument is about a couple of people who don't want to go to Virginia.
;D +k
Quote from: smedindy on December 04, 2013, 11:04:29 AM
Somehow, I think this whole argument is about a couple of people who don't want to go to Virginia.
+K
UNI-Dome (approx 16,000) - Cedar Falls IA. Close enough for many Midwest D3 conferences (& an easy drive for me. ;D)
How about my backyard? I bought a new Webber Grill this past summer (although the smaller Sprit version). I'll cook up some dogs for everyone, and I'll even provide free Wi-Fi for the broadcast crew.
Quote from: Jonny "Utes" Utah on December 05, 2013, 11:49:02 AM
How about my backyard? I bought a new Webber Grill this past summer (although the smaller Sprit version). I'll cook up some dogs for everyone, and I'll even provide free Wi-Fi for the broadcast crew.
You da man! :) +1!
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 03, 2013, 11:01:00 PM
Getting close to "beating a dead horse" time... ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjoMQJf5vKI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjoMQJf5vKI)
That needs to be a .gif, not a link to YouTube where I have to watch a 30-second ad first.
Otherwise, Bravo!
Quote from: jknezek on December 04, 2013, 04:57:54 PM
Quote from: jackson5 on December 04, 2013, 04:23:52 PM
Have MLS stadiums been considered yet? Columbus Crew Stadium in Columbus Ohio would be a good fit. 20K capacity. Put tarps over the endzone seats and capacity would be closer to 14-16K. It'll be close to Mount Union, and a possible drive for most schools.
PPL Park near Philly would be a good pick also. 18,500 Capacity, would be near many schools to. Would think either of those would be better picks than going down to texas or florida unless you are going to Mary-Hardin Baylor's home stadium.
PPL is hosting the D1 soccer champs this year. Birmingham (Hoover actually) hosted the last two years. I went to Hoover for the games and was unimpressed. I've been to the Stagg and seen a community get behind the event. It's much better when that happens. We'll see what PPL brings, but PPL hosted the College Rugby Sevens Cup as well and it was pretty much empty in the stadium.
Mentioned this exact stadium on the previous page, but no evidence that anyone in charge has ever considered a bid in Columbus.
I'm all for growing the brand, but you have to be realistic about what the brand is and how much growth there is to be had.
I'm all for improving the game and experience, even if that means leaving Salem or rotating it out once in a while, but I have yet to hear enough compelling reasons why a bigger city = better experience, for players and fans, or why a different city = better.
The number one thing is another place has to want it, and put the bid together that would leapfrog Salem. The IMG and the Texas bids are/were intriguing.
There's probably not a quick answer for this, but could you maybe talk about what goes into a "bid" and then how that process plays itself out at the home office in Indy? It is certainly not something that I understand and I don't think I'm alone. Perhaps if we got a brief synopsis of what components make up a "bid" to host the Stagg Bowl we could advance the conversation further than looping things like "hey, they should play it in Ohio!" over and over.
Quote from: K-Mack on December 05, 2013, 01:20:31 PM
I'm all for growing the brand, but you have to be realistic about what the brand is and how much growth there is to be had.
I'm all for improving the game and experience, even if that means leaving Salem or rotating it out once in a while, but I have yet to hear enough compelling reasons why a bigger city = better experience, for players and fans, or why a different city = better.
High aspirations, low expectations.
How many compelling reasons do you need? A bigger city in the mid-west would mean the game is closer to the usual suspects, enabling more fans to get to the game. A bigger city in Texas or Florida might be easier to fly to, etc... Bigger cities also have potentially a better stadium, better hotels, better restaurants. Not saying the NCAA would foot the bill for the more expensive hotels, but the option is there for the fans at least. Different is better as you can spur a little competition among potential host cities to one-up each other and you also expose the Stagg to new audiences.
Somebody's Visitors and Convention Bureau is looking at what opportunities are available to fill the hotels and restaurants in the city.
How many fans will come and spend the night, rather than driving in for the day?
How many fans will buy food at a sit-down restaurant?
(When University of Houston played Notre Dame in the Cotton Bowl in the late 1970's, the running joke was that the sales in the 7-11's reached all-time highs because of the UH fans.)
How much money does each fan spend on his trip while in Stagg-ville, USA?
Is this a natural thing for this city?
Does this city follow a D-3 team or does all of the interest go the local high school/JuCo/D-2/D-1FCS/D1FBS/NFL team?
What else is happening in the third weekend of December that can make us more money from tourism?
Are there any other spinoffs that come from hosting the Stagg Bowl? Will that make other activities to view this city as a must-have place to hold the event?
So far, my gut feeling is that no place else but Salem VA has put together a competitive package for the NCAA to evaluate.
A bigger city means the event would get lost.
The MSA of Roanoke holds 300,000 people (give or take). It's the 159th largest. We could play the game of going through the other 158, since God Forbid you'd want one smaller than 159 (so sorry to Kingsport, TN; Boulder; Utica; Lubbock; Erie; Fort Smith; Duluth; etc. etc.)
You have to find the right fit of where it's kind of a big deal, where people can get to, and where it doesn't get left on the "other events around town" page next to the bazaar at the Lutheran Church.
Quote from: smedindy on December 05, 2013, 02:52:30 PM
A bigger city means the event would get lost.
The MSA of Roanoke holds 300,000 people (give or take). It's the 159th largest. We could play the game of going through the other 158, since God Forbid you'd want one smaller than 159 (so sorry to Kingsport, TN; Boulder; Utica; Lubbock; Erie; Fort Smith; Duluth; etc. etc.)
You have to find the right fit of where it's kind of a big deal, where people can get to, and where it doesn't get left on the "other events around town" page next to the bazaar at the Lutheran Church.
Wow! Boulder! By the way, I got the munchies again...
Duluth seems like an ideal place. You know, for the Alpine Skiing championship.
AO - your comparison to the Olympics, World Cup, Super Bowl... whatever you picked is flawed... because a large number of cities BID to have the rights for those events to come to their cities. Thus, cities that hosting aren't eligible to bid for the next set of games. Also, there is a TON of money involved and thus why you hardly see repeat customers for items like the Olympics or World Cup (which by the way, is based on a country, not a city). Of course, you also used the comparison of some big-time national and international events... and I don't think one person in Division III thinks we compare to those giant events.
Keith has already stated it very clearly... and I will follow up... a big city does not mean a better experience. Keith and I both worth in Top 26 markets and I am telling you the game would be lost in a big city. There is way too many things to distract from it including the fact the media has more interest in something that isn't going to garner much attention from the average person reading or tuning into their news. Atlanta was a great success, but I don't remember seeing that many local TV guys at the DIII title game to get post-game sound afterward. Sure, there was some print media there, but that was about it. The event also had the Division I Final Four to help fuel it and thus drive media and fans to the game. You are talking about taking a single game with not as much fanfare as say a DI basketball Final Four and dropping it into a major city and expecting the same media and fan response? No chance. I had enough of a challenge getting my TV station to cover NCAA tournament games in Division III with nationally ranked teams... the struggle will still be there for a game featuring no teams probably from the area and plenty of other distractions. Heck, the women's lacrosse final fours for Division II and Division III where held in a hot-bed for lacrosse this past May... and I saw one TV camera show up.. and there several teams with connections to Baltimore. Why would the Stagg Bowl be any different or better?
Also, ten thousand fans in a building that holds 30, 40, 50 plus... makes it look like no one showed up. Division III numbers don't show you need a large arena to have the games, so why go there? They closed off the upper section for the Division III men's basketball title game so it felt cosier and didn't look as empty - which was great. You can't close off a football stadium in the same manner and not know it is empty or feels like it is empty.
You need a stadium no bigger than 20k in a community that will rally around the game (volunteers, community service activities, city support, practice facilities, hotel rooms, etc.). That isn't something just thrown around and done by communities. Which gets back to why the game hasn't moved from Salem in a very long time... no bid has compared to Salem. Believe it or not, I have heard how cities come to Salem and see what is done with the championships and they completely rethink their intentions. This isn't just a "we have hotels, transportation and a field... will you come?" type scenario. There is a LOT that goes on behind the scenes that makes this work.
Could I see the game being moved to another location? Sure... but if the BID is the right bid and the NCAA feels it is the right thing to do. Ultimately each sports' championship committee reviews and make their recommendations to the overall championships committee who then makes the final decision. We know who the three bids are this time around... and we will find out any day now if the NCAA feels moving the game from Salem is in the best interest of all of those involved.
Today's news probably shuts the door on this conversation for a few years at least. Obviously Salem has a great relationship with the NCAA and Division III specifically. I don't have a problem with Salem being the destination for championships. The city clearly embraces it and does a great job every year. Would it be nice if the weather could be perfect every year? Yes. Would it be nice if Salem was a little easier to get to? Of course. But I think what's been outlined here as alternatives that meet those two goals aren't great alternatives for reasons that Dave has spoken to above (or below depending on your format preference).
Now I just hope I can get to see my Little Giants make that trip to Salem before we gnash teeth about where the Stagg Bowl should be at again. :)
Do we have any idea who the people are who are rubber stamping Salem for four more years? The same people who wanted to give an automatic bid to the NESCAC? Is it such hard work that they can't go through the bid/selection process every year?
Dave-
It's not just about the money for the World Cup or Olympics. They wouldn't send the World Cup to South Africa or the Winter Olympics to Russia if this was the case. They take it around the world because of the very notion of it being a global event. They explicitly attempt to take it to different continents where they haven't been recently.
The game is currently lost in all the big cities. I really don't think anyone will miss the local Salem media coverage if it moves out. Would you at least admit that the attendance might be higher in a big city?
I doubt you've been to many games in domes with 10,000 fans. Doesn't look great on TV, but then no one is really impressed with the numbers of fans in the stands at Salem when the accidentally flip to the game on ESPNU. You're not going to feel alone in a stadium with 10,000 fans there no matter how many empty seats there are. In a dome the noise level is significantly higher than it would be in an outdoor stadium with 10,000 seats.
"There is a LOT that goes on behind the scenes that makes this work." ----what exactly about a big city makes you doubt they could handle it? A bigger city means more there are automatically more volunteers, community service activities, city support, practice facilities and hotel rooms available.
bottom line, I have no confidence in the championship committee to evaluate/solicit bids. They've proven incompetent in so many other ways, I can't see how they would somehow be experts at this part of their job.
Well Salem (and the ODAC) will be hosting not just football, but basketball and some softball as well. It's pretty clear that Salem embraces D3 events and has for a long time. The NCAA has a lot of faith in the community to put together well-run events. That is probably the most important point to the NCAA. Time to put this topic to rest for a while. If you don't like Salem (and as someone who went to W&L I don't exactly vouch for the joys of the Roanoke/Salem Metro area) so be it. That's where the game is going to be for 5 years or so.
If you want a change, better start calling around to your favorite venue and have them start thinking about putting a bid together. If you aren't willing to do that much, then it's time to stop complaining...
Quote from: AO on December 11, 2013, 02:31:44 PM
Is it such hard work that they can't go through the bid/selection process every year?
Considering that the NCAA as a whole, for dozens of sports across all divisions, announced host sites several years out, that's probably your answer right there.
Salem does a nice job. At least, they seem to as I have only made one trip out there - though I have spoken to team people and one referee who have vouched for the program there.
I would like to see the Stagg Bowl moved a bit further west (Ohio? Indiana?) for purely selfish reasons (easier for a Wisconsin guy to attend). I agree the current format (medium size city and stadium) is the right fit.
It's such a logistical puzzle that once the NCAA finds a host site that provides excellent logistics, volunteers and venues, there's no reason to go away from it. That's one thing off the list that they don't have to worry about.
There's a reason that D1 men's and women's basketball always have something going on in Indianapolis - and it's not just because the NCAA lives there. In fact, the NCAA moved there because of the volunteer and venue infrastructure. The Indiana Sports Corp. does a phenomenal job. I've been inside that machinery working at the Basketball World Championships. It's definitely a community effort.
Salem, the ODAC and all involved do a GREAT job with the Stagg. My only complaint is the inconsistent weather. I've been to 16 of them following Mount and the chance of the weather (wind, rain, ice, snow) impacting the game or travel is just as likely (or more) than it is being a nice day. If you could get 50 degrees, dry and calm in Salem 80+% of the time it would be perfect.
Quote from: AO on December 11, 2013, 02:31:44 PM
Do we have any idea who the people are who are rubber stamping Salem for four more years? The same people who wanted to give an automatic bid to the NESCAC? Is it such hard work that they can't go through the bid/selection process every year?
The championship committee for each sport makes their recommendations, but then the overall championship committee and above make the final decisions. It doesn't have to go by way of the recommendation and sometimes hasn't.
Quote from: AO on December 11, 2013, 02:31:44 PM
It's not just about the money for the World Cup or Olympics. They wouldn't send the World Cup to South Africa or the Winter Olympics to Russia if this was the case. They take it around the world because of the very notion of it being a global event. They explicitly attempt to take it to different continents where they haven't been recently.
But you are missing a MAJOR point here... cities and countries BID on this! In fact, when the US has had several cities interested in the Olympics, they have had a bid process just internally in the country... pick the best bid and then present that bid to the international body. Then a city is picked. If Russia or Brazil or other counties didn't bid ... they wouldn't get the opportunities to do this. And part of that bid process is volunteers, facilities (present or to be built), infrastructure, support, etc. And locations are turned down if the IOC (or even the USOC) doesn't feel a city or location is actually capabile of hosting the Olympics, World Cup, etc. This is also true for the Super Bowl and other events like them.
They move the games around because of these criteria and bids. In fact, the Olympics or the World Cup have not been in the Southern Hemesphere not because the bids aren't coming from there (they are)... but because they haven't been good enough.
This holds true with the NCAA. We know they are willing to move around bids due to interest and the ability to host. However, they also aren't willing to move bids around if certain criteria isn't met and if that bar keeps being raised by the likes of Salem and such... so be it.
So have a location put a bid in... but realize that ultimately the NCAA will decide what will happen.
Quote from: AO on December 11, 2013, 02:31:44 PM
The game is currently lost in all the big cities. I really don't think anyone will miss the local Salem media coverage if it moves out. Would you at least admit that the attendance might be higher in a big city?
Admit based on what? I won't bet that the attendance will be better. It is a fact that has to be proven not given. People think that moving a game to a location with more people around it means attendance will grow. How many football bowl games have you seen in locations that have high populations, but the place is barely half full. How about Jacksonville which constantly closes off sections of its stadium because they can't sell the tickets and have to close the sections to make sure they don't have the games blacked out. There is nothing to say attendance will grow especially if you consider the fact a city may have no interest in the game for whatever reason.
Quote from: AO on December 11, 2013, 02:31:44 PM
I doubt you've been to many games in domes with 10,000 fans. Doesn't look great on TV, but then no one is really impressed with the numbers of fans in the stands at Salem when the accidentally flip to the game on ESPNU. You're not going to feel alone in a stadium with 10,000 fans there no matter how many empty seats there are. In a dome the noise level is significantly higher than it would be in an outdoor stadium with 10,000 seats.
I've been to many a stadium where games are being played that make the building look empty. From high school to even the pros. The atmosphere doesn't necessarily improve. And from the stand point of standing on the sideline... when 10k fills a 1/7th of the stadium... it looks empty, no matter how they fill in the seats. Bigger is not always better. Sure... a dome can add to the noise because they either pump in more audio or the dome causes an echo... but the ONLY reason Division I basketball is played in places like domes is not because the games look better there... but because they draw enough people for those places not to look empty. If they saw a drop in attendance or didn't have the interest... they wouldn't be in domes or stadiums that large.
Quote from: AO on December 11, 2013, 02:31:44 PM
"There is a LOT that goes on behind the scenes that makes this work." ----what exactly about a big city makes you doubt they could handle it? A bigger city means more there are automatically more volunteers, community service activities, city support, practice facilities and hotel rooms available.
What you aren't considering is the simple fact that there is a lot more to do in a big city and more things to volunteer for and take your time. Sure, the numbers and data say there are more volunteers, but it isn't a community thing the bigger the city. People have more places to volunteer, decreasing the number of places people want to volunteer for. And a big city doesn't necessarily mean city support and hotel rooms and practice facilities. In fact, there may be a bigger competition for them.
Take for example Baltimore, where I have lived outside and worked in since arriving for college in '95, the city got behind the Indy Racing League and in my opinion had some amazing races here along with ALMS the last three years... but they ran into a MAJOR problem in the future. They are hosting Ohio State-Navy football game and the American Legion convention in the city right before and over the same weekend. When they looked at other weekends for the race, they couldn't find ones that fit because the dates are taken by other events. There aren't enough hotel rooms (in a city that keeps building hotels), there isn't enough resources to support it all, there aren't enough volunteers for all of the events, etc., etc., etc. Baltimore is 26th biggest TV market in the country... pretty close to Washington, DC (the two combined I think would be the third largest TV market?) and they have a lot that goes on in the city. If you are trying to squeeze a football game at the Division III level into this market or any similiar in size, you are competing against everything else that wants to be here and thus there are not enough hotel rooms (also, you can't guarantee how many will be used in the first place) and volunteers will be spread thin. Big cities are not going to close out other opportunities for a Division III event (they will for a Division I basketball Final Four!), so you are going to be competing for a lot of attention.
And trust me... this includes the media. There are so many resources they have as well.
Quote from: AO on December 11, 2013, 02:31:44 PM
bottom line, I have no confidence in the championship committee to evaluate/solicit bids. They've proven incompetent in so many other ways, I can't see how they would somehow be experts at this part of their job.
You haven't proven you are capable of selecting a site either as you have never designated a city, a stadium, who would run the championship, who would volunteer, where the community service would be (by the way, this is something Salem started doing and is now starting to become a staple of every championship city), etc. Make your own proposal as a "what if" and then we can talk about what the championship committee is capable of or not. (As an aside, I can't remember if it is the championship committee that actually made that mistake with the NESCAC... or the liason and the NCAA that made the assumption first.)
Not necessarily the full point of your post, but the last World Cup was held in South Africa and the next will be in Brazil, both in Southern Hemisphere.
Quote from: jaypeter on December 11, 2013, 08:24:25 PM
Not necessarily the full point of your post, but the last World Cup was held in South Africa and the next will be in Brazil, both in Southern Hemisphere.
Yeah, remember those @#@$#%@ vuvuzelas! >:(
well, glad to hear that the Stagg will be in Salem for the next 5 years counting this years. I will be there, Wesley playing or not. I know the forecast can change a lot between now and next friday, but 54 in the day and 47 at night with a 20% chance of rain is good to me. Hopefully it stays the same or improves.
QuoteSure... a dome can add to the noise because they either pump in more audio or the dome causes an echo... but the ONLY reason Division I basketball is played in places like domes is not because the games look better there... but because they draw enough people for those places not to look empty. If they saw a drop in attendance or didn't have the interest... they wouldn't be in domes or stadiums that large.
To wit, in the mid to late 80's (around the time the famous HS wunderkind Damon Bailey was playing for Bedford North-Lawrence HS), the Indiana HS basketball championship was played in the then Hoosier Dome, and drew 30,000. It had outgrown Market Square Arena.
However, thanks to several factors (most notably the change to a multi-class HS tournament which has caused attendance to plummet), they moved the tournament. In fact, the girls tournament has moved away from Indianapolis since even that can't look like a sell out at Banker's Life thanks to the diminished attendance.
Quote from: HScoach on December 11, 2013, 06:03:38 PM
Salem, the ODAC and all involved do a GREAT job with the Stagg. My only complaint is the inconsistent weather. I've been to 16 of them following Mount and the chance of the weather (wind, rain, ice, snow) impacting the game or travel is just as likely (or more) than it is being a nice day. If you could get 50 degrees, dry and calm in Salem 80+% of the time it would be perfect.
It's December in the USA. Very few locations have predictable weather. Just look at this past weekend!
Quote from: smedindy on December 11, 2013, 09:46:40 PM
Quote from: HScoach on December 11, 2013, 06:03:38 PM
Salem, the ODAC and all involved do a GREAT job with the Stagg. My only complaint is the inconsistent weather. I've been to 16 of them following Mount and the chance of the weather (wind, rain, ice, snow) impacting the game or travel is just as likely (or more) than it is being a nice day. If you could get 50 degrees, dry and calm in Salem 80+% of the time it would be perfect.
It's December in the USA. Very few locations have predictable weather. Just look at this past weekend!
Yep. Soccer championships in San Antonio last weekend featured beautiful South Texas weather in the 30s.
Quote from: jaypeter on December 11, 2013, 08:24:25 PM
Not necessarily the full point of your post, but the last World Cup was held in South Africa and the next will be in Brazil, both in Southern Hemisphere.
I didn't write it clearly... I was alluding to the fact that the Olympics and World Cup have not been in the Southern Hemisphere nearly as much as the Northern.
- Summer Olympics: 27/30 have been held or have been awarded to Northern Hemisphere countries
- Winter Olympics: 23/23 have been held or have been awarded to Northern Hemisphere countries
- World Cup: 22/24 have been held or have been awarded to Northern Hemisphere countries
And the trend has only recently given Southern Hemisphere countries the bids... the two in the World Cup: the last and next cups... the three in the Summer Olympics: two of the last five.
As I was reading your post I remembered Sydney had hosted in the 90's (?). What I did see in your pos was that those events are given to countries/cities with the resources to dedicate to them. Our current geo-political-economic situation is that the cast majority of Southern Hemisphere places are unable to do so, but there is a recent trend to look at new places the events haven't been to. It took the effort by them to bid, and the need to wait for appropriate situations.
OK, I think I'm tapping out of the conversation now. I'm gonna go annoy the neighbors by playing my vuvuzela to a samba beat.
Quote from: AO on December 05, 2013, 01:56:20 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 05, 2013, 01:20:31 PM
I'm all for growing the brand, but you have to be realistic about what the brand is and how much growth there is to be had.
I'm all for improving the game and experience, even if that means leaving Salem or rotating it out once in a while, but I have yet to hear enough compelling reasons why a bigger city = better experience, for players and fans, or why a different city = better.
High aspirations, low expectations.
How many compelling reasons do you need? A bigger city in the mid-west would mean the game is closer to the usual suspects, enabling more fans to get to the game. A bigger city in Texas or Florida might be easier to fly to, etc... Bigger cities also have potentially a better stadium, better hotels, better restaurants. Not saying the NCAA would foot the bill for the more expensive hotels, but the option is there for the fans at least. Different is better as you can spur a little competition among potential host cities to one-up each other and you also expose the Stagg to new audiences.
The key word was compelling.
I think you're more focused on the potential fan experience, and growing the game; I'm more focused on the full experience for the people who play in the game, and the fans who already go to the game on a regular basis.
Certainly there is growth to be had, and it could be moved closer to the geographic centers of D-III, but I also think you're kidding yourself if you think tens of thousands of people who don't care about D-III will suddenly take an interest because the title game moves to their town.
Since the Stagg Bowl has never drawn 10,000 fans (source: http://www.d3football.com/playoffs/index), and speaking as someone who has actually been to the game, and who covers sports in a big media market, I'm of the opinion it might get lost in a big city, unless a local team happened to make it. Bigger is better for some things, but in this case if bigger means it becomes Virginia vs. Fresno State in the Humanitarian Bowl, I'd just as soon keep it where they already care about it and do a good job with it.
Not sure what kind of fan interest you're envisioning, but the D-II title game has been in Florence, Ala. since 1986, and the only time they've drawn more than 12,000 is when it's featured North Alabama:
http://www.d2championship.com/History/DII_Champ_History_11.pdf
The FCS game does some decent numbers, and moves around some:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCAA_Division_I_Football_Championship
There's not really a great test case for holding a title game in a very big city, but you look at the history of all the games in all divisions and you can see the correlation is strong between local teams and attendance. That supports your case, then, in years when the champions happen to be near the place where the game is held. But what about all the other years?
I think you have to focus on factors other than fan attendance, because it's pretty well proven that you can only make a non-Division I title game a small percentage more popular to fans who otherwise wouldn't be interested in it, based on where it's held.
More flight options, okay (but the bigger issue with flights is the 6-day turnaround). Better hotels, eh. The Hotel Roanoke is pretty awesome; the team hotels are generic and could be found in any city.
I'm just not sure you're gaining much by moving it just to move it. Major airlines fly into Roanoke, Salem's sister city. It's within driving distance for a portion of schools; not as many as some locations in the midwest, but it's 12 hours and 810 miles from Mount Union to Minneapolis, and 5 hours and 384 miles from Alliance to Salem. (approx the same distance, 392, as UMU to Chicago)
As I have said several times, if another place has advantages over Salem and wants to match the effort, while keeping it appropriate (i.e. not 8,000 fans in a 60,000-seat stadium), I'm all for it.
Obviously you have your opinion and I've stated that I'm open to other places besides Salem but also see the value in keeping it in Salem, you can keep on replying or we can agree to disagree.
Quote from: smedindy on December 11, 2013, 09:46:40 PM
Quote from: HScoach on December 11, 2013, 06:03:38 PM
Salem, the ODAC and all involved do a GREAT job with the Stagg. My only complaint is the inconsistent weather. I've been to 16 of them following Mount and the chance of the weather (wind, rain, ice, snow) impacting the game or travel is just as likely (or more) than it is being a nice day. If you could get 50 degrees, dry and calm in Salem 80+% of the time it would be perfect.
It's December in the USA. Very few locations have predictable weather. Just look at this past weekend!
I'm in favor of keeping the game itself (not necessarily fan experience) as much like the rest of the season as possible. The TV and replay/challenges are different, but my opinion on the weather has always been that Salem's unpredictability matches what the weather is like in the other four rounds for many of the competing teams.
D-III being almost entirely Midwest and Northeast-based, Salem's about as good as you're going to do weather-wise without taking it out of driving range for the fans of most schools, who are the fans most likely to actually go to the game.
Quote from: smedindy on December 05, 2013, 02:52:30 PM
A bigger city means the event would get lost.
The MSA of Roanoke holds 300,000 people (give or take). It's the 159th largest. We could play the game of going through the other 158, since God Forbid you'd want one smaller than 159 (so sorry to Kingsport, TN; Boulder; Utica; Lubbock; Erie; Fort Smith; Duluth; etc. etc.)
You have to find the right fit of where it's kind of a big deal, where people can get to, and where it doesn't get left on the "other events around town" page next to the bazaar at the Lutheran Church.
I wish I had made my point using these words. ;D
Quote from: AO on December 11, 2013, 02:31:44 PM
Do we have any idea who the people are who are rubber stamping Salem for four more years? The same people who wanted to give an automatic bid to the NESCAC? Is it such hard work that they can't go through the bid/selection process every year?
Dave-
It's not just about the money for the World Cup or Olympics. They wouldn't send the World Cup to South Africa or the Winter Olympics to Russia if this was the case. They take it around the world because of the very notion of it being a global event. They explicitly attempt to take it to different continents where they haven't been recently.
The game is currently lost in all the big cities. I really don't think anyone will miss the local Salem media coverage if it moves out. Would you at least admit that the attendance might be higher in a big city?
I doubt you've been to many games in domes with 10,000 fans. Doesn't look great on TV, but then no one is really impressed with the numbers of fans in the stands at Salem when the accidentally flip to the game on ESPNU. You're not going to feel alone in a stadium with 10,000 fans there no matter how many empty seats there are. In a dome the noise level is significantly higher than it would be in an outdoor stadium with 10,000 seats.
"There is a LOT that goes on behind the scenes that makes this work." ----what exactly about a big city makes you doubt they could handle it? A bigger city means more there are automatically more volunteers, community service activities, city support, practice facilities and hotel rooms available.
bottom line, I have no confidence in the championship committee to evaluate/solicit bids. They've proven incompetent in so many other ways, I can't see how they would somehow be experts at this part of their job.
You have some points. Moving it around the way the Olympics do, just so people can share in the experience, is nice in theory.
Gotta find a city that wants it, and wants to support it, and would be ... Ah, I think we've hit every point there is to hit on this.
Another assessment of the popularity is the TV numbers.
I cannot remember which year D-3 (Stagg Bowl) outdrew D-2 on TV.
Just having a lot fans viewing is a sign of broad support.
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 12, 2013, 12:48:12 PM
Another assessment of the popularity is the TV numbers.
I cannot remember which year D-3 (Stagg Bowl) outdrew D-2 on TV.
Just having a lot fans viewing is a sign of broad support.
last year it was pretty close, but as with all tv ratings, you have to consider what else was on at the time.
(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F2UflS.jpg&hash=8dd3b3993279458edb052fa0a521d65186b873fe)
Also, it was on ESPNU, which doesn't have the reach of ESPN2 and is usually on a higher cable tier.
Here's an interesting tidbit.
Kansas City has won the bid to host the DII title game, starting next year. It will be played in Sporting Park - an amazing venue typically used by Sporting KC, the MLS team. It's a state of the art stadium that seats 18-20k, but every seat feels like you are right on top of the action.
(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sportingparkkc.com%2Fcms%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F03%2FLSPSoccerCrowdShot.jpg&hash=c9c934d6981d4b2bc77bc15ebce37d1196419b73)
(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.turnerconstruction.com%2FFiles%2FGetImage%3Furl%3D%252FNews%2520Images%252F52932077-7234-4bc9-a5cf-76a472b4ff60.jpg%26amp%3Bwidth%3D707%26amp%3Bheight%3D470%26amp%3Bcrop%3DTrue%26amp%3BjpegQuality%3D95&hash=f104fdceb4178a48ab8b5af3b86e5a7fbdf694c2)
First, I realize KC is outside the typical D3 footprint. But this is a large city that rallies well around smaller events. There's a reason why the NCAA awarded KC with the right to host multiple different sport championships from multiple different levels. This is a big city with a small town feel that has historically loved small college athletics. The NAIA DI basketball championships are held in Kemper arena in KC every year. The city knows its history, that the tournament dates back to Dr. Naismith and a national championship for small colleges. It gets coverage on the local radio and TV to a remarkable extent. The week of the tourney, the sports radio guys talk about it constantly.
All that to say, this is a large metro area that has bids to multiple small college or non-revenue championships in the upcoming years (volleyball, soccer, etc.). I'm pumped to go see the DII game next year. It's in The Legends area: great restaurants, hotels, infrastructure and a killer venue. While outside the d3footprint a bit (though much closer for TX, IA, MN, WI, IL and West Coast schools, it has a major airport that would make flying easier & cheaper. Having seen multiple soccer games at Sporting Park, I think it's a great fit for a D2/3 title game. It's not too large, will get local support (KC loves their college sports) and is a beautiful stadium.
I have no idea if they bid for the D3 game or not. But it sounds like they bid for about everything else, and came away having won a ton of bids. They cleaned house.
Of similar note: they estimated the D2 game would bring in $1.5 mil in local revenue. I don't know what the Stagg brings in to Salem. But the lady who heads the KC Athletic Commission (or some such name) was pumped by this figure. There was no scoffing at it being small potatoes, she and the 810 Sports (the major radio affiliate) were very excited to have landed the events. So excited they gave airtime to just having won the bids, while the actual games are still a year out!
Quote from: AO on December 12, 2013, 01:36:51 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 12, 2013, 12:48:12 PM
Another assessment of the popularity is the TV numbers.
I cannot remember which year D-3 (Stagg Bowl) outdrew D-2 on TV.
Just having a lot fans viewing is a sign of broad support.
last year it was pretty close, but as with all tv ratings, you have to consider what else was on at the time.
(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F2UflS.jpg&hash=8dd3b3993279458edb052fa0a521d65186b873fe)
Game should start at least at 8 to give individuals on the west coast a chance to watch it after normal work hours.
FYI: Salem has hosted more than Division III games in the past... and will do so in the future (Division II lacrosse this May). I can't even remember how many championships they have hosted so far, but I believe I read correctly that next week's Stagg Bowl will mark the 57th Division III championship - and I don't think they are counting last year's MBB Elite 8 weekend.
http://i.turner.ncaa.com/dr/ncaa/ncaa7/release/sites/default/files/images/2013/12/11/bidinfographic.jpg (http://i.turner.ncaa.com/dr/ncaa/ncaa7/release/sites/default/files/images/2013/12/11/bidinfographic.jpg)
http://odaconline.com/odac/2013-14/releases/121113-ncaa-site-selections (http://odaconline.com/odac/2013-14/releases/121113-ncaa-site-selections)
After reading the article above about the DII championship I went to the Florence newspaper site to see what they had about losing it. Not much so far.
http://www.timesdaily.com/news/local/article_9ed911cc-6294-11e3-a723-10604b9f6eda.html (http://www.timesdaily.com/news/local/article_9ed911cc-6294-11e3-a723-10604b9f6eda.html)
Interesting that the guy who led the bid to get the game 28 years ago died earlier this year.
Move to Kansas City for the D2 championship
http://www.d2football.com/viewnews.php?id=24491
From D2football.com
Well, everything IS up to date in Kansas City.
Kansas City is smack in the middle of the footprint of one of the top conferences in Division II (their MIAA) and if Duluth or Mankato continue to be contenders, they're 6-8 hours' drive straight down 35.
One thing to remember about the D2-II bracket is it is completely regionally based. Two teams from the same region can't meet for the title as long as the playoffs remain structured in this way.
North Dakota State won its third straight D1 FCS championship today in balmy Frisco TX. It was in the 66 degrees at the conclusion of the game, 67 degrees warmer than Fargo.
"RealFeel" was 60 degrees in Frisco TX versus -23 in Fargo ND.
And they did not do a good job maintaining the field... blaming icy weather a month ago for the cause. What did they do in the last month to fix the field?
I am not sure anyone watch the ND State game against Towson, but nobody should have to or ever play on that field. The game was tough to watch.
The Dr Pepper Field in Frisco is a soccer field for FC Dallas. IMHO, a soccer pitch needs a different turf from a football field. In Texas, the grasses that we used to have on football fields had more structural integrity and were "grittier" to hold cleats and for pivoting (I guess stems and roots to the grass) than one would have to permit the true roll of a soccer ball across the pitch (more blades on the grass).
My thought was that 300 lb linemen and 230 lb LB's generate more torque and are more destructive to turf than a 160 lb midfielder.
Quote from: Ralph Turner on January 06, 2014, 08:29:21 PM
The Dr Pepper Field in Frisco is a soccer field for FC Dallas. IMHO, a soccer pitch needs a different turf from a football field. In Texas, the grasses that we used to have on football fields had more structural integrity and were "grittier" to hold cleats and for pivoting (I guess stems and roots to the grass) than one would have to permit the true roll of a soccer ball across the pitch (more blades on the grass).
My thought was that 300 lb linemen and 230 lb LB's generate more torque and are more destructive to turf than a 160 lb midfielder.
Dr Pepper is the name of the nearby AA Baseball stadium. No negative points for confusing the name as Toyota stadium has had a different name each of the last 3 years. The grass they use seems to hold up just fine for all the high school games they host. They wanted to make it even better for the fcs title and ended up making it worse when the cold weather came through.
QuoteNick Shafer, the stadium's vice president of operations blamed the weather for the poor field conditions, saying in a written statement distributed at halftime, "The facility replaced the turf on the field between the hash marks on Nov. 18. Shortly thereafter, an ice storm came through Frisco and ice sat on the field for a week. This prevented the grass from taking root underneath the turf. We haven't changed any field preparation from years' past. The only difference this year is that weather did not cooperate with us."
Tigers coach Rob Ambrose dismissed any notion that the turf affected the play. "In the end, we played in snow, red turf, busted turf, you name it," he said, referring to a snowstorm that blanketed the team's win against Eastern Illinois and the red-colored field at Eastern Washington. "It doesn't matter."
Thanks, my bad. That field used to be called Pizza Hut Park. +1 for the correction!