Quote from: Jack Parkman on March 11, 2013, 03:03:19 PM
I don't know much about anywhere but the West but I think Trinity staying at 4 is a little high. They are a solid club, but they lost 2/3 and I really don't know if they play solid enough D to be a championship club. Pitching is pretty solid and they have a fairly straight shot into a regional. I would probably place them around the 9/10 slot right there with Linfield.
Quote from: BigPoppa on March 11, 2013, 02:59:26 PM
Spence- you are right about #1... Not sure what to do there. As of the next poll, most teams will have a handful of games under their belts, so it will be much easier to get a handle on what is happening. It is always tough to rank teams early as many of them have yet to play or are just starting out.
Also, it is tough to judge teams on spring trips that play 8-10 games in a single week. They are throwing guys late in the rotations that may never see the mound once they return home. I can almost always excuse a loss or two in a week when a team plays those brutal 10-games-in-6-days stretches.
Quote from: 108 Stitches on March 11, 2013, 03:44:25 PMIMO Trinity is not the top team in the West.
I am with Jack and Spence. It is really hard to know about all of the teams, particularly those outside of our respective region(s). The top two spots are a crap shoot from what I can see. I can't see Trinity at #4 right now, just too many errors and a few other questions, I would drop them down a few spots, but again not knowing the teams around them in the rankings make it difficult. The rest of the West teams seem about right.
Quote from: CrashDavisD3 on March 11, 2013, 07:06:45 PMQuote from: 108 Stitches on March 11, 2013, 03:44:25 PMIMO Trinity is not the top team in the West.
I am with Jack and Spence. It is really hard to know about all of the teams, particularly those outside of our respective region(s). The top two spots are a crap shoot from what I can see. I can't see Trinity at #4 right now, just too many errors and a few other questions, I would drop them down a few spots, but again not knowing the teams around them in the rankings make it difficult. The rest of the West teams seem about right.
I would say Linfield even though they lost to lowly Williamette. Also consideration has to be given to Centenary(*), Texas-Tyler also.
* I know Centenary is not eligible for the NCAA playoffs.,
Quote from: CrashDavisD3 on March 12, 2013, 12:12:27 PM
Chapman takes down another TOP 25 team.
http://www.chapmanathletics.com/sports/bsb/2012-13/releases/20130312oipzl9
Quote from: Whatagame on March 11, 2013, 07:26:36 PMQuote from: CrashDavisD3 on March 11, 2013, 07:06:45 PMQuote from: 108 Stitches on March 11, 2013, 03:44:25 PMIMO Trinity is not the top team in the West.
I am with Jack and Spence. It is really hard to know about all of the teams, particularly those outside of our respective region(s). The top two spots are a crap shoot from what I can see. I can't see Trinity at #4 right now, just too many errors and a few other questions, I would drop them down a few spots, but again not knowing the teams around them in the rankings make it difficult. The rest of the West teams seem about right.
I would say Linfield even though they lost to lowly Williamette. Also consideration has to be given to Centenary(*), Texas-Tyler also.
* I know Centenary is not eligible for the NCAA playoffs.,
I'd posit that one should reconsider the "lowly Willamette" classification this season. Three of their losses are to NAIA teams, then they lost to Whitworth by one run in a pre-conference play matchup. Then, they opened Northwest Conference play against PLU, at PLU, losing two games by one run, and then taking game three. Then, they faced Linfield this past weekend in conference, losing two close ones and taking the 3rd game in the weekend series. Hell, put Willamette in some other conferences, and they'd probably be in a regional this year....
Against D3 competition this season, their big blowout losses have been a 6-3 loss to Hendrix (first game of season), and a 6-1 loss to Linfield this weekend.
Quote from: 108 Stitches on March 12, 2013, 05:51:19 PMHaverford qualifies. The 6-0 Fords have beaten Drew, Rowan, Skidmore and Pitt-Bradford.
Hammer, it is often that unranked teams early in the season get overlooked....however 2012 has little to do with 2013 unless of course there is a significant number of returners and or a history of the program being strong year over year.
Drum roll....and the mystery team is?
Quote from: Ricky Nelson on March 12, 2013, 06:32:52 PMQuote from: 108 Stitches on March 12, 2013, 05:51:19 PMHaverford qualifies. The 6-0 Fords have beaten Drew, Rowan, Skidmore and Pitt-Bradford.
Hammer, it is often that unranked teams early in the season get overlooked....however 2012 has little to do with 2013 unless of course there is a significant number of returners and or a history of the program being strong year over year.
Drum roll....and the mystery team is?
Quote from: Spence on March 12, 2013, 08:29:43 PMhttp://www.d3baseball.com/notables/2012/05/Playoff_Central ;DQuote from: Ricky Nelson on March 12, 2013, 06:32:52 PMQuote from: 108 Stitches on March 12, 2013, 05:51:19 PMHaverford qualifies. The 6-0 Fords have beaten Drew, Rowan, Skidmore and Pitt-Bradford.
Hammer, it is often that unranked teams early in the season get overlooked....however 2012 has little to do with 2013 unless of course there is a significant number of returners and or a history of the program being strong year over year.
Drum roll....and the mystery team is?
I had no recollection that 3 of those teams were in a regional.
Quote from: CrashDavisD3 on March 12, 2013, 09:11:18 PMQuote from: Spence on March 12, 2013, 08:29:43 PMhttp://www.d3baseball.com/notables/2012/05/Playoff_Central ;DQuote from: Ricky Nelson on March 12, 2013, 06:32:52 PMQuote from: 108 Stitches on March 12, 2013, 05:51:19 PMHaverford qualifies. The 6-0 Fords have beaten Drew, Rowan, Skidmore and Pitt-Bradford.
Hammer, it is often that unranked teams early in the season get overlooked....however 2012 has little to do with 2013 unless of course there is a significant number of returners and or a history of the program being strong year over year.
Drum roll....and the mystery team is?
I had no recollection that 3 of those teams were in a regional.
Quote from: 108 Stitches on March 14, 2013, 09:26:36 AMAgree. The D3baseball.com "rankers" seem to heavily weight a programs historic performance, forecasting that the team will produce like results by seasons end. Thus delaying any precipitous descent in the teams rank. It takes a couple of weeks of poor performance for weight to be given to current in-season performance. We will see if 4 losses to unranked teams are enough to drop Kean out of the rankings. On the D1 side BA dropped Stanford clear out of the Top 25 from 13, after getting swept by a previously unranked UNLV (now 21). This despite Stanfords sweep of a ranked Texas team one week prior. So, big drops, from respected rankers, to perennially highly ranked teams can happen in a single week.
They were all close games against solid teams, while they are on an early season trip so my guess is that they will drop a lot but likely not out. I get the impression that once you make it to the top 10 it takes a couple of weeks of poor play to drop you off.
Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 14, 2013, 12:23:20 PMI'm with you - except I would not over weight "playing well" into a ranking decision when it involves play in more than one game. A loss is a loss, or in Keans case 4 losses are 4 losses. If you want to be highly ranked you must earn it by winning. However, 4 blowout wins against teams with RPI's in the bottom 10% would mean very little to me. The subjective nature of rankings such as these is exposed each week. That is what makes them interesting I guess.
D1 and D3 seem to be 2 different animals. Kean went to the West Coast with 7 games under its belt and then played 5 games in 6 days. The west coast competition was in mid-season form. For example, LaVerne had played 13 games, 1/3 of its season by that time.
The SCIAC is a well-balanced league in its top 4-5 teams. Kean played well against that competition.
Another factor is that you don't always know whether Kean pitched its early season #4 pitcher against another team's mid-season #2!
In baseball, we usually like at least best 2-of-3 and commonly best 3-of-5 or better in the highest quality of competition. Before 1969, we played 154 or 162 games to determine a league championship, so we wanted a real endurance test to detemine the best team. The modern playoffs were made for TV!
Quote from: Hammer Ball on March 14, 2013, 12:44:58 PM"Playing well", which brings us to the discussion of "results" (please note the precision and latitude of the wording) versus regionally ranked teams, which is one of the criteria used by the Evaluation Committees.Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 14, 2013, 12:23:20 PMI'm with you - except I would not over weight "playing well" into a ranking decision when it involves play in more than one game. A loss is a loss, or in Keans case 4 losses are 4 losses. If you want to be highly ranked you must earn it by winning. However, 4 blowout wins against teams with RPI's in the bottom 10% would mean very little to me. The subjective nature of rankings such as these is exposed each week. That is what makes them interesting I guess.
D1 and D3 seem to be 2 different animals. Kean went to the West Coast with 7 games under its belt and then played 5 games in 6 days. The west coast competition was in mid-season form. For example, LaVerne had played 13 games, 1/3 of its season by that time.
The SCIAC is a well-balanced league in its top 4-5 teams. Kean played well against that competition.
Another factor is that you don't always know whether Kean pitched its early season #4 pitcher against another team's mid-season #2!
In baseball, we usually like at least best 2-of-3 and commonly best 3-of-5 or better in the highest quality of competition. Before 1969, we played 154 or 162 games to determine a league championship, so we wanted a real endurance test to detemine the best team. The modern playoffs were made for TV!
Quote from: Hammer Ball on March 14, 2013, 07:18:30 AMYes IMO
Should Keans 4 losses (all to unranked teams) drop them out of the top 25?
Quote from: BigPoppa on March 14, 2013, 04:48:15 PMTrue
Hammer- your theory of the poll reflecting only "performance to date" completely leaves out the teams that have yet to play a single game becuase of geography. If this were the case, the entire top 25 would be teams from the West and South, which I am not certain is an accurate way to assess the "national" inclusiveness of the poll.
Quote from: Hammer Ball on March 14, 2013, 04:03:04 PMI disagree. Past, Present, Future......Example Marrietta, Cortland, Trinity-Texas
Another way to consider the Top 25 is to ask the question, is this likely to be one of the teams that wins 2 of its first 3 games in the Regional Playoffs? That gives you about 30-35 teams from which to consider your Top 25. In the Mid-Atlantic Region, the NJAC schools always deserve consideration. :)
I think you hit on one of my points: Should the Top 25 purely reflect performance as of the day of ranking? or should whether this is likely to be one of the teams that wins 2 of its first 3 games in the Regional Playoffs be a factor? I think the ranking should have nothing to do with perdicting the future but rather evaluating the seasons performance to date.
Quote from: Ricky Nelson on March 14, 2013, 02:43:34 PMYour right...Apples and Oranges comparison
I think "unranked" is a bit of a misnomer. Kean didn't lose to 2-10 teams.Ithaca is in my top 25.Brockport was removed from my 25 at the 11th hour. La Verne is in someone's 25. Chapman is capable of beating any team. Redlands has one home loss and has beaten Pomona, CLU, UTD, Bridgewater and Kean at their place.
UW-Whitewater moved into the top 10 after a split against an unranked team.
UNLV was unranked by Baseball America in a literal sense. Plus, Stanford was swept at home in three games. I disagree that KU and Stanford is an apt analogy.
Quote from: Ricky Nelson on March 14, 2013, 02:43:34 PM
. . . UW-Whitewater moved into the top 10 after a split against an unranked team.
Quote from: CrashDavisD3 on March 14, 2013, 05:19:43 PMDoes this support an argument that polls should not be started until after a certain date or that we should start polls as currently done but just omit teams that do not have a sufficient in-season body of work? D3 differs greatly from D1 in that recruiting/transfers are not followed and reported on in a similar fashion. As unreliable as preseason polls are in D1 (see unranked Fresno St. winning championship a few years ago) such polls may be absurd in D3. Although they are fun.Quote from: BigPoppa on March 14, 2013, 04:48:15 PMTrue
Hammer- your theory of the poll reflecting only "performance to date" completely leaves out the teams that have yet to play a single game becuase of geography. If this were the case, the entire top 25 would be teams from the West and South, which I am not certain is an accurate way to assess the "national" inclusiveness of the poll.
Quote from: Hammer Ball on March 14, 2013, 07:24:13 PMQuote from: CrashDavisD3 on March 14, 2013, 05:19:43 PMDoes this support an argument that polls should not be started until after a certain date or that we should start polls as currently done but just omit teams that do not have a sufficient in-season body of work? D3 differs greatly from D1 in that recruiting/transfers are not followed and reported on in a similar fashion. As unreliable as preseason polls are in D1 (see unranked Fresno St. winning championship a few years ago) such polls may be absurd in D3. Although they are fun.Quote from: BigPoppa on March 14, 2013, 04:48:15 PMTrue
Hammer- your theory of the poll reflecting only "performance to date" completely leaves out the teams that have yet to play a single game becuase of geography. If this were the case, the entire top 25 would be teams from the West and South, which I am not certain is an accurate way to assess the "national" inclusiveness of the poll.
Quote from: Babe Truth on March 14, 2013, 06:19:39 PMOf course. Had UWW playing CSS for whatever reason.Quote from: Ricky Nelson on March 14, 2013, 02:43:34 PM
. . . UW-Whitewater moved into the top 10 after a split against an unranked team.
Actually, Whitewater split with #2 St. Thomas to move from 11 to 10. UW La Crosse did the same thing in slightly better fashion and stays at #16. St. Thomas is now #5 despite losing 3 of 8. All of which seems to fit some of the reasoning here regarding historic performance and program reputation being factors. Of course early polls are always educated guesses that often don't resemble the final polls.
Quote from: Ricky Nelson on March 14, 2013, 10:47:57 PM
Kean loses in California quite often.
2013: 3-3 record (2-3 vs CA teams); 2012: 4-2; 2011: 3-3; 2010: DNP; 2009: 3-3; 2008: 4-2; 2007: 4-2.
KU made the tournament each of those seasons, won a regional in 2007-09 and 2011-12, and won it all in 2007.
Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 14, 2013, 10:31:45 PM
And if you want me to build a 6-team bracket for the Midwest Regionals 2 months from now, I will take St Thomas, UWW, UWL and the Pool A bid from the UMAC, CSS. Add the IIAC Pool A bid and the NATHC champ and voila!
Quote from: Ricky Nelson on March 14, 2013, 10:47:57 PMBy coming to CA every year Kean gets to play teams that are in mid season form and is better competition than staying home and playing teams near them. It also help them find out and develop their pitching with so many innings in their week trip prepares them for conference tourney and regional tournaments. The formula seems to work based on the past history.
Kean loses in California quite often.
2013: 3-3 record (2-3 vs CA teams); 2012: 4-2; 2011: 3-3; 2010: DNP; 2009: 3-3; 2008: 4-2; 2007: 4-2.
KU made the tournament each of those seasons, won a regional in 2007-09 and 2011-12, and won it all in 2007.
Quote from: Spence on March 15, 2013, 01:47:36 AMYou have to move the teams out of the Mid-Atlantic.Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 14, 2013, 10:31:45 PM
And if you want me to build a 6-team bracket for the Midwest Regionals 2 months from now, I will take St Thomas, UWW, UWL and the Pool A bid from the UMAC, CSS. Add the IIAC Pool A bid and the NATHC champ and voila!
I hope the committee will be more creative than that given how many regionals are close by.
Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 15, 2013, 04:37:58 PMQuote from: Spence on March 15, 2013, 01:47:36 AMYou have to move the teams out of the Mid-Atlantic.Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 14, 2013, 10:31:45 PM
And if you want me to build a 6-team bracket for the Midwest Regionals 2 months from now, I will take St Thomas, UWW, UWL and the Pool A bid from the UMAC, CSS. Add the IIAC Pool A bid and the NATHC champ and voila!
I hope the committee will be more creative than that given how many regionals are close by.
When you look at the 500-mile radii of the host sites, I think that Concordia-Austin gets filled with the West Region teams, then the next one will be Millington TN.
From there, I think that they start sorting out the east coast.
Quote from: CrashDavisD3 on March 14, 2013, 05:28:52 PMQuote from: Ricky Nelson on March 14, 2013, 02:43:34 PM
I think "unranked" is a bit of a misnomer. Kean didn't lose to 2-10 teams.Ithaca is in my top 25.Brockport was removed from my 25 at the 11th hour. La Verne is in someone's 25. Chapman is capable of beating any team. Redlands has one home loss and has beaten Pomona, CLU, UTD, Bridgewater and Kean at their place.
UW-Whitewater moved into the top 10 after a split against an unranked team.
UNLV was unranked by Baseball America in a literal sense. Plus, Stanford was swept at home in three games. I disagree that KU and Stanford is an apt analogy.
Your right...Apples and Oranges comparison
Occidental(15-2) Not in TOP 25, Not even a single vote. If it beats Cal Lu 2 of 3 they deserve a top 25 ranking with a 17-3 record.
Quote from: Spence on March 17, 2013, 06:22:31 PM
Seems like a lot of that going around this weekend.
As of now, here's my top 25...in case anyone cares. It's pretty much entirely different than last week's poll ranking lol. It's also changed a ton this weekend because ranked teams have liked to lose.
1. Linfield
21. Cal Lutheran
23. UT-Tyler
Quote from: Just_Some_Guy on March 17, 2013, 07:14:56 PMQuote from: Spence on March 17, 2013, 06:22:31 PM
Seems like a lot of that going around this weekend.
As of now, here's my top 25...in case anyone cares. It's pretty much entirely different than last week's poll ranking lol. It's also changed a ton this weekend because ranked teams have liked to lose.
1. Linfield
21. Cal Lutheran
23. UT-Tyler
I can only speak for the West since that's the region I follow closely, but I'm a bit surprised by the omission of Trinity. Their SoS isn't great, but it's not bad either and at 18-4 I feel like they're a top 12-15 team, especially with the depth they've begun to develop on the bump and the way Hirschberg is swinging the bat.
JSG
Quote from: BigPoppa on March 18, 2013, 11:15:17 AM
Hammer away. I know someone will be unhappy...
Quote from: Hammer Ball on March 18, 2013, 12:35:48 PM
My first, and last, attempt at a Poll.
No teams with fewer then 10 games considered. With less than 10 the sample size of in-season games is not sufficient to rank without relying on past performance and prognosticating where the team might end up at years end. Those factors, imo, are not a proper gauge on a teams performance at a particular point in a season. (The number 10 is arbitrary.) I should note that in doing this I realized how speculative an exercise it is. I have seen 11 D3 teams play this year and might be able to fairly rank them. (I even question my ability to do that after only a single game.) Yes the ISR and SOS weigh heavily.
and Big Poppa, how could anyone be unhappy talking baseball?
1 - California Lutheran
2 - Linfield
3 - George Fox
4 - Pomona-Pitzer
5 - Millsaps
6 - Texas-Tyler
7 - Huntingdon
8 - Manchester
9 - Pacific Lutheran
10 - Haverford
11 - Heidelberg
12 - Texas Lutheran
13 - Spalding
14 - Augustana, Illinois
15 - Neumann
16 - Marietta
17 - Kean
18 - Salisbury
19 - Trinity, Texas
20 - Christopher Newport
21 - Shenandoah
22 - Chapman
23 - Whitworth
24 - Redlands
25 - Cal Tech (for never giving up . . . and likely designing the defense weapons/systems that protect our country.)
Quote from: Spence on March 18, 2013, 01:51:16 PMQuote from: BigPoppa on March 18, 2013, 11:15:17 AM
Hammer away. I know someone will be unhappy...
First off, good job on Linfield #1.
Trinity has similarly beaten a bunch of oil cans and lost 2 of 3 to the only good team they've played since February 2nd.
Cal Lu already leads the SCIAC and it will be a major surprise if they aren't 14-4 or better by the end of their next 2 series (vs. Caltech and CMS). They already took 2 out of 3 from Pitzer playing 2 of the 3 at Pitzer.
Quote from: Ricky Nelson on March 18, 2013, 03:48:49 PM
Quite a divergent sample of rankings. For what it's worth, mine trended toward Spence's.
Anyone else have a top 25? I like seeing other takes.
This week was one of the hardest to compile in my years of voting. This time of year is always difficult though.
Quote from: Hammer Ball on March 19, 2013, 11:31:59 AMThe general outline for D3sports.com is to have 3 representatives from each of the 8 regions plus the head kahuna to give 25.
Another question for the board veterans: Who are the 25 coaches, Sports Information Directors and media members from across the country that vote for the D3baseball.com Top 25? Are their identities and votes made public? Or are they protected as if they are members of Seal Team 6? It would be interesting to know the geographical spread of the voters and which voters have seen which teams play.
Quote from: Hammer Ball on March 19, 2013, 11:31:59 AMThe general outline for D3sports.com is to have 3 representatives from each of the 8 regions plus the head kahuna to give 25.
Another question for the board veterans: Who are the 25 coaches, Sports Information Directors and media members from across the country that vote for the D3baseball.com Top 25? Are their identities and votes made public? Or are they protected as if they are members of Seal Team 6? It would be interesting to know the geographical spread of the voters and which voters have seen which teams play.
Quote from: Hammer Ball on March 19, 2013, 10:35:47 AM
I clearly do not understand the ranking system and the numbers that go into the decision making. As an example: Salisbury is 13 - 2 and has a 116.2 ISR (31st) and a 115 SOS and is ranked #1. Cal Lu is 13 - 5 and has a 138.6 ISR (1st) and a 2 SOS but is not in the top 25. There are many on this board much more experienced than me, hopefully one or more of you can explain how this makes sense and stop my uninformed ramblings.
Quote from: doodlesdad on March 19, 2013, 01:57:28 PM
Kind of amusing how the voters know about the SCIAC, which has certainly held its own nationally over the years (two titles, three seconds among Cal Lutheran, Chapman and La Verne since 1992). While I'm not sure either team is a Top 25 yet, the fact that Pomona-Pitzer (10-5, 15-5) is just outside the Top 25 with 52 points while Cal Lutheran is down the line with 18 (9-3, 13-5-1) tell me no one is paying much attention. The Kingsmen hammered the Sagehens in two of three meetings and is 9-3 against the conference, taking at least two of three each time, without yet facing either of the dogs (Claremont-Mudd-Scripps and Caltech). Pomona-Pitzer is 5-0 nonconference against teams with a cumulative 21-23-1 record and Cal Lutheran is 3-21 against clubs with a 34-18-1 cumulative mark. Things to think about. (Just saw the ABCA poll: Cal Lutheran 11, Pomona-Pitzer 18 makes more sense.)
Quote from: Jack Parkman on March 19, 2013, 12:40:25 PMThanks for the comments.
I really don't have a whole lot to say about the poll since I really only follow the West but a few things stand out to me...
1. Birmingham Southern really had a terrible week and lost 4 in a row but didn't move???
The losses to Adrian and to Ill.Wesleyan may be to teams that will be regionally ranked. Adrian is an in-region game. How strong is Huntingdon? That was a good pair of wins for the Hawks.
2. Oxy getting votes after a 2-3 week, which included getting swept in regional games. But they got some love for the wins over Bridgewater Va and Ithaca. You are right. Being swept by Cal Lu is big.
3. Trinity moving up 5 spots while going 4-0 with a great win over TLU and 3 over an average Dallas team.
I think that it was Big Poppa who said that this was a hard week for him to vote. Everyone above Trinity had a sub-optimal week. They must have "floated up", and not rose to those heights by their outstanding effort.
4. Pomona still getting more votes than Cal Lu. Cal Lu took 2 of 3 from them already and is better in the SCIAC so far as well as the region.
Yeah, go figure. Cal Lu won the George Fox series, too.
5. Whitworth not receiving a single vote surprises me.
(But why do you give votes to a team that has a 9-6-1 record against West Region teams and 9-8-1 overall?)
My biggest question is whether or not people (voters) look at the SOS tab on the front page? I fully understand that many teams are just getting their seasons started but those get updated all the time.
And my question about SOS at this time of the year, is that not every team is in late season form when comparing across the regions. That is a problem for me some times. I am glad that they play 40 game schedules to level some of that out.
Quote from: doodlesdad on March 19, 2013, 01:57:28 PMIt seems the two polls are not very dissimilar. Many of the same teams, although rankings are slightly different especially in the top 15 or so.
Kind of amusing how the voters know about the SCIAC, which has certainly held its own nationally over the years (two titles, three seconds among Cal Lutheran, Chapman and La Verne since 1992). While I'm not sure either team is a Top 25 yet, the fact that Pomona-Pitzer (10-5, 15-5) is just outside the Top 25 with 52 points while Cal Lutheran is down the line with 18 (9-3, 13-5-1) tell me no one is paying much attention. The Kingsmen hammered the Sagehens in two of three meetings and is 9-3 against the conference, taking at least two of three each time, without yet facing either of the dogs (Claremont-Mudd-Scripps and Caltech). Pomona-Pitzer is 5-0 nonconference against teams with a cumulative 21-23-1 record and Cal Lutheran is 3-21 against clubs with a 34-18-1 cumulative mark. Things to think about. (Just saw the ABCA poll: Cal Lutheran 11, Pomona-Pitzer 18 makes more sense.)
Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 19, 2013, 02:54:38 PMQuote from: Jack Parkman on March 19, 2013, 12:40:25 PMThanks for the comments.
I really don't have a whole lot to say about the poll since I really only follow the West but a few things stand out to me...
1. Birmingham Southern really had a terrible week and lost 4 in a row but didn't move???
The losses to Adrian and to Ill.Wesleyan may be to teams that will be regionally ranked. Adrian is an in-region game. How strong is Huntingdon? That was a good pair of wins for the Hawks.
2. Oxy getting votes after a 2-3 week, which included getting swept in regional games. But they got some love for the wins over Bridgewater Va and Ithaca. You are right. Being swept by Cal Lu is big.
3. Trinity moving up 5 spots while going 4-0 with a great win over TLU and 3 over an average Dallas team.
I think that it was Big Poppa who said that this was a hard week for him to vote. Everyone above Trinity had a sub-optimal week. They must have "floated up", and not rose to those heights by their outstanding effort.
4. Pomona still getting more votes than Cal Lu. Cal Lu took 2 of 3 from them already and is better in the SCIAC so far as well as the region.
Yeah, go figure. Cal Lu won the George Fox series, too.
5. Whitworth not receiving a single vote surprises me.
(But why do you give votes to a team that has a 9-6-1 record against West Region teams and 9-8-1 overall?)
My biggest question is whether or not people (voters) look at the SOS tab on the front page? I fully understand that many teams are just getting their seasons started but those get updated all the time.
And my question about SOS at this time of the year, is that not every team is in late season form when comparing across the regions. That is a problem for me some times. I am glad that they play 40 game schedules to level some of that out.
Quote from: Jack Parkman on March 19, 2013, 04:33:57 PMQuote from: Ralph Turner on March 19, 2013, 02:54:38 PMQuote from: Jack Parkman on March 19, 2013, 12:40:25 PMThanks for the comments.
I really don't have a whole lot to say about the poll since I really only follow the West but a few things stand out to me...
1. Birmingham Southern really had a terrible week and lost 4 in a row but didn't move???
The losses to Adrian and to Ill.Wesleyan may be to teams that will be regionally ranked. Adrian is an in-region game. How strong is Huntingdon? That was a good pair of wins for the Hawks.
2. Oxy getting votes after a 2-3 week, which included getting swept in regional games. But they got some love for the wins over Bridgewater Va and Ithaca. You are right. Being swept by Cal Lu is big.
3. Trinity moving up 5 spots while going 4-0 with a great win over TLU and 3 over an average Dallas team.
I think that it was Big Poppa who said that this was a hard week for him to vote. Everyone above Trinity had a sub-optimal week. They must have "floated up", and not rose to those heights by their outstanding effort.
4. Pomona still getting more votes than Cal Lu. Cal Lu took 2 of 3 from them already and is better in the SCIAC so far as well as the region.
Yeah, go figure. Cal Lu won the George Fox series, too.
5. Whitworth not receiving a single vote surprises me.
(But why do you give votes to a team that has a 9-6-1 record against West Region teams and 9-8-1 overall?)
My biggest question is whether or not people (voters) look at the SOS tab on the front page? I fully understand that many teams are just getting their seasons started but those get updated all the time.
And my question about SOS at this time of the year, is that not every team is in late season form when comparing across the regions. That is a problem for me some times. I am glad that they play 40 game schedules to level some of that out.
Very valid points, Ralph. Some things I didn't really think of.
Quote from: BigPoppa on March 20, 2013, 10:11:18 AM
In addition, I also have a lot of contacts throughout the nation that collectively see a lot of D3 games and I truly value their opinions and observations. The trend with many schools now moving towards live video feeds of games also allows me (and probably others) to watch and evaluate teams not playing near where we live.
Quote from: Ricky Nelson on March 19, 2013, 03:00:19 PM
I got some ribbing for my placement of CNU on this week's ballot. You can see my votes in tomorrow's Around the Nation column.
Quote from: Spence on March 20, 2013, 10:58:08 AMI picked CNU to win a regional. Depending on the draw, I still would today. But I treat those picks and top 25 ballots differently. With the ballots I tend to be more reflective than predictive once the season gets underway. Not everyone votes that way, obviously, and my ballot has some predictive votes left over from the preseason.Quote from: Ricky Nelson on March 19, 2013, 03:00:19 PM
I got some ribbing for my placement of CNU on this week's ballot. You can see my votes in tomorrow's Around the Nation column.
Boy you weren't kidding about our ballots being similar! Not identical surely, but similar philosophy, I think.
I was big on CNU coming into the year, but their schedule and some non-quality losses more or less forced me to drop them.
Quote from: Spence on March 20, 2013, 10:58:08 AMI think people out there did not take a real hard look at CNU for 2013. This is a very young team w/ only two position starters back from the last two seasons. However their pitching staff is very solid w/ the returners and some key new additions. The USAS starts conference play w/ 3 game series the second weekend of February. This makes it very tough to schedule strong out of region teams like in previous years. CNU has always carried one of the toughest out of conference schedules in the nation each year. Still this year they are playing the top teams from in region conferences during the mid-week like Salisbury and Bridewater. With that said I think you will see this very young team get better as they play more. Being 14-4 in their conference is pretty good while starting 4 and 5 freshman.Quote from: Ricky Nelson on March 19, 2013, 03:00:19 PM
I got some ribbing for my placement of CNU on this week's ballot. You can see my votes in tomorrow's Around the Nation column.
Boy you weren't kidding about our ballots being similar! Not identical surely, but similar philosophy, I think.
I was big on CNU coming into the year, but their schedule and some non-quality losses more or less forced me to drop them.
Quote from: rolln2 on March 20, 2013, 01:43:28 PMQuote from: Spence on March 20, 2013, 10:58:08 AMI think people out there did not take a real hard look at CNU for 2013. This is a very young team w/ only two position starters back from the last two seasons. However their pitching staff is very solid w/ the returners and some key new additions. The USAS starts conference play w/ 3 game series the second weekend of February. This makes it very tough to schedule strong out of region teams like in previous years. CNU has always carried one of the toughest out of conference schedules in the nation each year. Still this year they are playing the top teams from in region conferences during the mid-week like Salisbury and Bridewater. With that said I think you will see this very young team get better as they play more. Being 14-4 in their conference is pretty good while starting 4 and 5 freshman.Quote from: Ricky Nelson on March 19, 2013, 03:00:19 PM
I got some ribbing for my placement of CNU on this week's ballot. You can see my votes in tomorrow's Around the Nation column.
Boy you weren't kidding about our ballots being similar! Not identical surely, but similar philosophy, I think.
I was big on CNU coming into the year, but their schedule and some non-quality losses more or less forced me to drop them.
Quote from: BigPoppa on March 20, 2013, 10:08:10 PM
I have a feeling that which ever poll best suits everyone's favorite team is the one they feel is doing the best job... Regardless of other facts and circumstances that shape either poll.
Quote from: doodlesdad on March 20, 2013, 04:21:51 PM
Biggest case in point: George Fox (Ore.), the Northwest Conference leader, is eighth in the ABCA poll but didn't get a a single vote in the D3 poll. The same is true for Centenary (La.), 25th in ABCA, and Texas Lutheran, 30th in ABCA. The other way around, Wisconsin-Stevens Point is 20th in the D3 poll but got only three votes to rank 50th in ABCA. Those running the polls should be embarrassed if this is the bast they can do.
Quote from: Mike Falk on March 21, 2013, 10:48:13 AMDefinitely no need for pollsters to be embarrased - Mike hit the nail(s) on the head(s) - plus its all for fun. Enjoy the games!
doodlesdad -
Why should anyone be embarrassed? The difference in the polls points to the difficulty in evaluating teams that have played more than half their schedule vs. team that have only played a few games. Do you vote on performance or potential, results or reputation? Different voters have different philosophies, so early in the year this is going to happen. As others have written, this will change when the cold weather schools get more games under their belts, and the polls should be more similar.
Quote from: 108 Stitches on March 21, 2013, 04:49:23 AMQuote from: doodlesdad on March 20, 2013, 04:21:51 PM
Biggest case in point: George Fox (Ore.), the Northwest Conference leader, is eighth in the ABCA poll but didn't get a a single vote in the D3 poll. The same is true for Centenary (La.), 25th in ABCA, and Texas Lutheran, 30th in ABCA. The other way around, Wisconsin-Stevens Point is 20th in the D3 poll but got only three votes to rank 50th in ABCA. Those running the polls should be embarrassed if this is the bast they can do.
dodles, I think the reason for Centenary not being ranked in the D3 poll is the fact that they are transitional, so the D3 folks don't rank them.(or at least I believe this) I personally think this is wrong and they should be ranked like all other D3 teams, even though they can not move to a Regional. The program and the kids should get the recognition IMO.
Quote from: Spence on March 21, 2013, 11:55:12 AMQuote from: 108 Stitches on March 21, 2013, 04:49:23 AMQuote from: doodlesdad on March 20, 2013, 04:21:51 PM
Biggest case in point: George Fox (Ore.), the Northwest Conference leader, is eighth in the ABCA poll but didn't get a a single vote in the D3 poll. The same is true for Centenary (La.), 25th in ABCA, and Texas Lutheran, 30th in ABCA. The other way around, Wisconsin-Stevens Point is 20th in the D3 poll but got only three votes to rank 50th in ABCA. Those running the polls should be embarrassed if this is the bast they can do.
dodles, I think the reason for Centenary not being ranked in the D3 poll is the fact that they are transitional, so the D3 folks don't rank them.(or at least I believe this) I personally think this is wrong and they should be ranked like all other D3 teams, even though they can not move to a Regional. The program and the kids should get the recognition IMO.
My reason for not ranking them is that I don't think they're good enough to be ranked.
Were teams like UT Tyler and Birmingham Southern included in the polls when they were in their provisional periods?
Covenant would be another one to consider.
Quote from: Spence on March 25, 2013, 12:10:57 PMI am ok with your #1 and most of your other picks but your #2 does not belong in top 25...
Here's what I've got. Comments/criticisms welcome.
1. Linfield
2. St. Joseph's
3. Cortland State
4. St. Thomas
5. St. Scholastica
6. Huntingdon
7. Webster
8. Wheaton (Mass.)
9. UW-Whitewater
10. Kean
11. Marietta
12. Haverford
13. UW-Stevens Point
14. Ramapo
15. Western New England
16. Manchester
17. Salisbury
18. UT-Tyler
19. Cal Lutheran
20. Keystone
21. Wartburg
22. Johns Hopkins
23. Concordia (Ill.)
24. Christopher Newport
25. Spalding
Quote from: Ricky Nelson on March 25, 2013, 02:58:38 PMI got my sos from boyds xcpt cort st, which i could not find on boyds.
Not sure if everyone knows, but the SOS numbers from the front page are in-region only.
Quote from: Hammer Ball on March 25, 2013, 03:56:44 PMQuote from: Ricky Nelson on March 25, 2013, 02:58:38 PMI got my sos from boyds xcpt cort st, which i could not find on boyds.
Not sure if everyone knows, but the SOS numbers from the front page are in-region only.
Quote from: Ricky Nelson on March 25, 2013, 03:29:17 PM
Wrong St. Joe's, Crash. Benefit of the doubt, but I assume Spence ranked the one from Maine.
Quote from: Whatagame on March 25, 2013, 04:32:16 PMQuote from: Hammer Ball on March 25, 2013, 03:56:44 PMQuote from: Ricky Nelson on March 25, 2013, 02:58:38 PMI got my sos from boyds xcpt cort st, which i could not find on boyds.
Not sure if everyone knows, but the SOS numbers from the front page are in-region only.
The SOS rankings from Boyd's are just totally different from the D3.com SOS rankings.
As I understand it, Boyd's looks at all D3 games a team plays, but does not rank a team until they have played 10 games.
D3.com SOS only takes into account in-region games, and begins ranking a team as soon as they've played a game.
Am I correct in that the current Boyd's method is accurate to what the official SOS calculation will be next year, when "a D3 game is a game."
Quote from: Ricky Nelson on March 25, 2013, 02:58:38 PMHow accurate are those numbers. It shows Trinity (TX) in region record as 19-5. Their total record is 23-5. DeSales, Cardinal Stritch, and Rockford aren't in region. That is 5 wins a 1 loss. There is a debate if Centenary counts as in region since they aren't eligible for NCAA post season play. With Centenary, TU should have a record of 18-4 and without it would be 17-2.
Not sure if everyone knows, but the SOS numbers from the front page are in-region only.
Quote from: CrashDavisD3 on March 25, 2013, 03:19:54 PMI was wrong AGAIN. I was looking at the wrong team. 2 teams are St. Joseph in D3.Quote from: Spence on March 25, 2013, 12:10:57 PMI am ok with your #1 and most of your other picks but your #2 does not belong in top 25...
Here's what I've got. Comments/criticisms welcome.
1. Linfield
2. St. Joseph's
3. Cortland State
4. St. Thomas
5. St. Scholastica
6. Huntingdon
7. Webster
8. Wheaton (Mass.)
9. UW-Whitewater
10. Kean
11. Marietta
12. Haverford
13. UW-Stevens Point
14. Ramapo
15. Western New England
16. Manchester
17. Salisbury
18. UT-Tyler
19. Cal Lutheran
20. Keystone
21. Wartburg
22. Johns Hopkins
23. Concordia (Ill.)
24. Christopher Newport
25. Spalding
Why?
They have not beaten a team with a winning record.(They have beat teams with a combined record of 10-36)
They have only played 9 games.
They have lost to a team with a losing record.
LOW ISR And SOS for their oppponents.
Quote from: CrashDavisD3 on March 26, 2013, 09:59:28 AM
http://www.d3baseball.com/top25/2013/2013week-5
Things are starting to get sorted out.
Some things to think about and discuss.
Should teams with less than 10 games be in top 25? as a rule no
Should teams with winning percentages .600 or less be in top 25? up to the voter but imo no
SCIAC teams got votes but no love for top 25 yet. SCIAC teams have beaten Trinity, Linfield, Kean all in the top 10. this poll seems to lean away from west region teams
Quote from: Mike Falk on March 26, 2013, 10:36:12 AMI see SCIAC teams are in top 20 in the ABCA/CB poll while are not in the D3baseball poll.
Here is the American Baseball Coaches Association/Collegiate Baseball poll for games through March 24:
http://www.muhlenberg.edu/pdf/main/athletics/abcapoll_032613.pdf
Quote from: CrashDavisD3 on March 26, 2013, 10:42:02 AMQuote from: Mike Falk on March 26, 2013, 10:36:12 AMI see SCIAC teams are in top 20 in the ABCA/CB poll while are not in the D3baseball poll.
Here is the American Baseball Coaches Association/Collegiate Baseball poll for games through March 24:
http://www.muhlenberg.edu/pdf/main/athletics/abcapoll_032613.pdf
Is there some Anti-SCIAC bias out there?
Quote from: CrashDavisD3 on March 26, 2013, 10:42:02 AMQuote from: Mike Falk on March 26, 2013, 10:36:12 AMI see SCIAC teams are in top 20 in the ABCA/CB poll while are not in the D3baseball poll.
Here is the American Baseball Coaches Association/Collegiate Baseball poll for games through March 24:
http://www.muhlenberg.edu/pdf/main/athletics/abcapoll_032613.pdf
Is there some Anti-SCIAC bias out there?
Quote from: Just_Some_Guy on March 26, 2013, 02:48:38 PM
If you combined the two polls assigning equal value to the corresponding rank of each list the top 35 would look very close to this:
1.) Linfield
2.) Trinity
2.) Cortland State
4.) Salisbury
5.) Kean
5.) Marietta
7.) Christopher Newport
7.) St. Thomas
9.) Wheaton
10.) UT Tyler
11.) Shenandoah
12.) St. Joseph’s (ME)
13.) Ramapo
14.) Keystone
15.) Haverford
16.) Johns Hopkins
17.) UW Whitewater
18.) Cal Lutheran
19.) Manchester
20.) Huntingdon
20.) Webster
22.) George Fox
22.) Pomona Pitzer
24.) Birmingham Southern
24.) Western New England
26.) Augustana
26.) Wis-Oshkosh
28.) Eastern Conn St.
28.) UW Stevens Point
30.) Texas Lutheran
31.) UW-LaCrosse
32.) St. Scholastica
32.) Ithaca
34.) Rowan
35.) Heidelberg
Some of the "bigger" discrepancies come out West where the ABCA seems to value those team's body of work more-so than the D3 Baseball poll. As someone who follows the West relatively closely, my opinion would be that Trinity is ranked too high (in both polls), though I'd have them between 8 and 12. I'd have Cal Lutheran ranked between 18-24 and I would not have George Fox ranked at this time.
JSG
Quote from: tigerfan_2001 on March 26, 2013, 09:28:58 AMPeople are working daily to get the in-region designations correct. It's a lot of work.Quote from: Ricky Nelson on March 25, 2013, 02:58:38 PMHow accurate are those numbers. It shows Trinity (TX) in region record as 19-5. Their total record is 23-5. DeSales, Cardinal Stritch, and Rockford aren't in region. That is 5 wins a 1 loss. There is a debate if Centenary counts as in region since they aren't eligible for NCAA post season play. With Centenary, TU should have a record of 18-4 and without it would be 17-2.
Not sure if everyone knows, but the SOS numbers from the front page are in-region only.
Quote from: Ricky Nelson on March 26, 2013, 03:29:59 PMthanks for the clarification. Can you tell me how to determine if a team is in region? Seems crazy a team that is 1100 miles away is in regionQuote from: tigerfan_2001 on March 26, 2013, 09:28:58 AMPeople are working daily to get the in-region designations correct. It's a lot of work.Quote from: Ricky Nelson on March 25, 2013, 02:58:38 PMHow accurate are those numbers. It shows Trinity (TX) in region record as 19-5. Their total record is 23-5. DeSales, Cardinal Stritch, and Rockford aren't in region. That is 5 wins a 1 loss. There is a debate if Centenary counts as in region since they aren't eligible for NCAA post season play. With Centenary, TU should have a record of 18-4 and without it would be 17-2.
Not sure if everyone knows, but the SOS numbers from the front page are in-region only.
Rockford is in-region for Trinity (Texas). No debate on Centenary. That's an in-region game for TU as well. All third- and fourth-year reclassifying programs count in the primary criteria.
Quote from: Hammer Ball on March 26, 2013, 10:29:39 AMQuote from: CrashDavisD3 on March 26, 2013, 09:59:28 AM
http://www.d3baseball.com/top25/2013/2013week-5
Things are starting to get sorted out.
Some things to think about and discuss.
Should teams with less than 10 games be in top 25? as a rule no
Quotethanks for the clarification. Can you tell me how to determine if a team is in region? Seems crazy a team that is 1100 miles away is in region
Quote from: 108 Stitches on March 26, 2013, 05:00:59 PMQuotethanks for the clarification. Can you tell me how to determine if a team is in region? Seems crazy a team that is 1100 miles away is in region
San Antonio to Spokane ~2,000 miles. In region. It is the Wild Wild West!
...and a little East depending on your perspective.
Quote from: Hammer Ball on March 26, 2013, 11:13:35 AM
I am missing the reason behind the ranking given St. Joe's(ME) in both polls. Seems very high to me.
They do not have enough games to be given a SOS on boyds but their in-region SOS on D3baseball for 7 of their 9 games is 313! Is that right? They swept a 2-12 Rhode Island and 4-5 Ripon and beat a 4 loss Wheaton(MA) and 5-9 Keene St. Worst yet, they lost to a 3-6 UMass-Boston.
Quote from: 108 Stitches on March 26, 2013, 05:00:59 PMi get that, they are both in the same region, the West. I dont think Rockford from Illinois who participates in the Northern Athletic Conference which is part of the Midwest Evaluation Region and is 1193 miles from Trinity would count as an In Region game. Unless I misread Ricky's post, he is saying they are in-region.Quotethanks for the clarification. Can you tell me how to determine if a team is in region? Seems crazy a team that is 1100 miles away is in region
San Antonio to Spokane ~2,000 miles. In region. It is the Wild Wild West!
...and a little East depending on your perspective.
Quote from: Spence on March 26, 2013, 06:27:02 PMI guess the issue remains is the poll vote should reflect where there are now, not where they might be in 4 weeks. Not what their opponents did last year but what they have done this year. In 4 weeks that is a different poll. Time will sort things out if they truly belong where they are IMO but too much future predictions with polls IMO instead of the present.Quote from: Hammer Ball on March 26, 2013, 11:13:35 AM
I am missing the reason behind the ranking given St. Joe's(ME) in both polls. Seems very high to me.
They do not have enough games to be given a SOS on boyds but their in-region SOS on D3baseball for 7 of their 9 games is 313! Is that right? They swept a 2-12 Rhode Island and 4-5 Ripon and beat a 4 loss Wheaton(MA) and 5-9 Keene St. Worst yet, they lost to a 3-6 UMass-Boston.
That 4-loss Wheaton took home a piece of wood last year from Appleton. UMass-Boston and Keene State are respected programs as well. Keene State has a lot of losses but they also beat Bowdoin and Western New England. St. Joe's also beat UMass-Boston and their other loss is to Webster who was also in Appleton last year.
If you extrapolated their record to teams that have played more games that would be 14-4 or 21-6 against mostly pretty good programs. It would surprise me if St. Joe's finishes with less than 28 wins, and they could end up with many more.
But at least they actually beat those 2-12 type teams they played. We've got a team in the top 5 that lost to a 2-10 team.
Quote from: tigerfan_2001 on March 26, 2013, 07:08:52 PMQuote from: 108 Stitches on March 26, 2013, 05:00:59 PMi get that, they are both in the same region, the West. I dont think Rockford from Illinois who participates in the Northern Athletic Conference which is part of the Midwest Evaluation Region and is 1193 miles from Trinity would count as an In Region game. Unless I misread Ricky's post, he is saying they are in-region.Quotethanks for the clarification. Can you tell me how to determine if a team is in region? Seems crazy a team that is 1100 miles away is in region
San Antonio to Spokane ~2,000 miles. In region. It is the Wild Wild West!
...and a little East depending on your perspective.
Quote from: CrashDavisD3 on March 26, 2013, 07:14:22 PMQuote from: Spence on March 26, 2013, 06:27:02 PMI guess the issue remains is the poll vote should reflect where there are now, not where they might be in 4 weeks.Quote from: Hammer Ball on March 26, 2013, 11:13:35 AM
I am missing the reason behind the ranking given St. Joe's(ME) in both polls. Seems very high to me.
They do not have enough games to be given a SOS on boyds but their in-region SOS on D3baseball for 7 of their 9 games is 313! Is that right? They swept a 2-12 Rhode Island and 4-5 Ripon and beat a 4 loss Wheaton(MA) and 5-9 Keene St. Worst yet, they lost to a 3-6 UMass-Boston.
That 4-loss Wheaton took home a piece of wood last year from Appleton. UMass-Boston and Keene State are respected programs as well. Keene State has a lot of losses but they also beat Bowdoin and Western New England. St. Joe's also beat UMass-Boston and their other loss is to Webster who was also in Appleton last year.
If you extrapolated their record to teams that have played more games that would be 14-4 or 21-6 against mostly pretty good programs. It would surprise me if St. Joe's finishes with less than 28 wins, and they could end up with many more.
But at least they actually beat those 2-12 type teams they played. We've got a team in the top 5 that lost to a 2-10 team.
Quote from: Spence on March 26, 2013, 08:16:33 PMQuote from: CrashDavisD3 on March 26, 2013, 07:14:22 PMQuote from: Spence on March 26, 2013, 06:27:02 PMI guess the issue remains is the poll vote should reflect where there are now, not where they might be in 4 weeks.Quote from: Hammer Ball on March 26, 2013, 11:13:35 AM
I am missing the reason behind the ranking given St. Joe's(ME) in both polls. Seems very high to me.
They do not have enough games to be given a SOS on boyds but their in-region SOS on D3baseball for 7 of their 9 games is 313! Is that right? They swept a 2-12 Rhode Island and 4-5 Ripon and beat a 4 loss Wheaton(MA) and 5-9 Keene St. Worst yet, they lost to a 3-6 UMass-Boston.
That 4-loss Wheaton took home a piece of wood last year from Appleton. UMass-Boston and Keene State are respected programs as well. Keene State has a lot of losses but they also beat Bowdoin and Western New England. St. Joe's also beat UMass-Boston and their other loss is to Webster who was also in Appleton last year.
If you extrapolated their record to teams that have played more games that would be 14-4 or 21-6 against mostly pretty good programs. It would surprise me if St. Joe's finishes with less than 28 wins, and they could end up with many more.
But at least they actually beat those 2-12 type teams they played. We've got a team in the top 5 that lost to a 2-10 team.
Right now they're 7-2 having played several quality opponents, including a win over last year's runner ups.
But by all means continue to have a 23-5 team that's played a trash schedule and just lost to a 2-10 team ranked second in your personal regional rankings and top 5 in the country by the voters.
And then later we can all look surprised when they flame out in the regional like they do every year.
Is CUA a quality opponent for Trinity today? They're 14-14.
And people wonder why I get upset at folks on this board. Even on the national board people are so territorial.
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 26, 2013, 07:33:54 PMSeconded. I encourage everyone to view the FAQ for any refreshers.Quote from: tigerfan_2001 on March 26, 2013, 07:08:52 PMQuote from: 108 Stitches on March 26, 2013, 05:00:59 PMi get that, they are both in the same region, the West. I dont think Rockford from Illinois who participates in the Northern Athletic Conference which is part of the Midwest Evaluation Region and is 1193 miles from Trinity would count as an In Region game. Unless I misread Ricky's post, he is saying they are in-region.Quotethanks for the clarification. Can you tell me how to determine if a team is in region? Seems crazy a team that is 1100 miles away is in region
San Antonio to Spokane ~2,000 miles. In region. It is the Wild Wild West!
...and a little East depending on your perspective.
Illinois and Texas are both in the same NCAA administrative region. See the FAQ on the home page for a full description of 'what is an-in-region game'. In short:
1. same conference = in region
2. within 200 miles = in region
3. same sports region = in region (obviously!)
4. same NCAA administrative region = in region
Beginning next year (all sports?) all games against d3 teams are in region as long as you play at least 70% of games against teams that are in region by the current standards.
Quote from: Just_Some_Guy on March 26, 2013, 08:52:56 PM
I'd have Trinity as my #2 in the west right now, but I'm not as bullish nationally as many of the other west homers are (and the current voters seem to be), but I also don't put as much stock into dropping one game in a 4-game series to a 2-10 team that had a good outing by a kid who's started the year off in decent fashion on the bump.
Also, as much as my fellow West peeps don't want to admit it, we're never going to get respect nation-wide until someone besides Chapman makes a deep run at a regional. And, personally, I think that's fair.
JSG
Quote from: Ricky Nelson on March 26, 2013, 09:03:04 PMwow. Thanks for that. Hope Rockford has another winning record then, since they count.Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 26, 2013, 07:33:54 PMSeconded. I encourage everyone to view the FAQ for any refreshers.Quote from: tigerfan_2001 on March 26, 2013, 07:08:52 PMQuote from: 108 Stitches on March 26, 2013, 05:00:59 PMi get that, they are both in the same region, the West. I dont think Rockford from Illinois who participates in the Northern Athletic Conference which is part of the Midwest Evaluation Region and is 1193 miles from Trinity would count as an In Region game. Unless I misread Ricky's post, he is saying they are in-region.Quotethanks for the clarification. Can you tell me how to determine if a team is in region? Seems crazy a team that is 1100 miles away is in region
San Antonio to Spokane ~2,000 miles. In region. It is the Wild Wild West!
...and a little East depending on your perspective.
Illinois and Texas are both in the same NCAA administrative region. See the FAQ on the home page for a full description of 'what is an-in-region game'. In short:
1. same conference = in region
2. within 200 miles = in region
3. same sports region = in region (obviously!)
4. same NCAA administrative region = in region
Beginning next year (all sports?) all games against d3 teams are in region as long as you play at least 70% of games against teams that are in region by the current standards.
Quote
Well there's been George Fox, who actually won it all, and Linfield made a respectable showing in Appleton. CUA has been there as well. So I wouldn't say that no one besides Chapman has shown anything. I don't think it's too much different than how Marietta has dominated the Mideast...other programs have made the series and shown well, but no one else has won a championship.
I just want to see the programs that make an effort and play a reasonably challenging schedule to be given credit for that. I don't know where you're supposed to rank Trinity right now because I just don't know how you're supposed to know anything about them. It's about like UW-Oshkosh or Otterbein right now...only 28 games into the season. I've got Otterbein something like 6th in the Mideast right now and that won't change until they play someone good. I imagine Midwest region observers have a similar "I'm from Missouri" attitude about Oshkosh. Hard to see them any higher than 5th.
Quote from: 108 Stitches on March 27, 2013, 01:34:52 PMQuote
Well there's been George Fox, who actually won it all, and Linfield made a respectable showing in Appleton. CUA has been there as well. So I wouldn't say that no one besides Chapman has shown anything. I don't think it's too much different than how Marietta has dominated the Mideast...other programs have made the series and shown well, but no one else has won a championship.
I just want to see the programs that make an effort and play a reasonably challenging schedule to be given credit for that. I don't know where you're supposed to rank Trinity right now because I just don't know how you're supposed to know anything about them. It's about like UW-Oshkosh or Otterbein right now...only 28 games into the season. I've got Otterbein something like 6th in the Mideast right now and that won't change until they play someone good. I imagine Midwest region observers have a similar "I'm from Missouri" attitude about Oshkosh. Hard to see them any higher than 5th.
Trinity has historically played a challenging schedule, but this year the stars aligned and has made it weaker. This is not their fault. Geographically they have limitations, but they do a home/away every year with Chapman who is historically one of the top teams in the country.
As far as knowing about the team, last year it was one game short of going to Appleton, they lost their number two pitcher late in the year which most feel if he was healthy they would have had the arms to get though. This year they only lost two key players (Number 1 pitcher, and number 3 hole hitter) You keep pointing out they lost to a 2-10 team and as others have posted they got beat by a good pitcher in a 4 game series that they otherwise completely dominated. It happens.
So for this year, the rest of the squad is back with some strong freshmen contributing, along with the expected growth of the rest of the team. They have a much improved offense, with one of the top offensive players in DIII ball. Their pitching is significantly deeper, with a dominant number one, (not quite as dominant as last year) but they have 2-5 pitchers with a strong bull pen and two late inning closer types. (actually maybe three now) They are not as good defensively this year, which is perplexing given the same guys are back, but it is what it is.
So from a "potential" standpoint and performance against the top teams they have played they are playing like a top ten team nationally, which is why they are ranked where they are. Are they a number 1 or 2 team in the country? Not IMO, but they are certainly a top 10 team and probably the second best team in the West. They will continue to develop and lets see what happens in 6 weeks.
While they have not broken through to Appleton they are always very competitive and there a certainly a lot of DIII teams that wish they had their success.
Quote from: Spence on March 28, 2013, 01:47:41 AMNot here to argue that TU has played a tough schedule, because they haven't. They went to Chapman and when that was scheduled, Chapman was better than they are now. A Quick check on schedules shows that UT-Tyler's open weekends were the first weekend of March and the first weekend of April. TU has conference games both of those weekends. I doubt either team sees the merit in a 7 hour, one-way, bus ride for a midweek game. But, to each their own. Win the conference and the SOS doesn't matter at all.Quote from: 108 Stitches on March 27, 2013, 01:34:52 PMQuote
Well there's been George Fox, who actually won it all, and Linfield made a respectable showing in Appleton. CUA has been there as well. So I wouldn't say that no one besides Chapman has shown anything. I don't think it's too much different than how Marietta has dominated the Mideast...other programs have made the series and shown well, but no one else has won a championship.
I just want to see the programs that make an effort and play a reasonably challenging schedule to be given credit for that. I don't know where you're supposed to rank Trinity right now because I just don't know how you're supposed to know anything about them. It's about like UW-Oshkosh or Otterbein right now...only 28 games into the season. I've got Otterbein something like 6th in the Mideast right now and that won't change until they play someone good. I imagine Midwest region observers have a similar "I'm from Missouri" attitude about Oshkosh. Hard to see them any higher than 5th.
Trinity has historically played a challenging schedule, but this year the stars aligned and has made it weaker. This is not their fault. Geographically they have limitations, but they do a home/away every year with Chapman who is historically one of the top teams in the country.
As far as knowing about the team, last year it was one game short of going to Appleton, they lost their number two pitcher late in the year which most feel if he was healthy they would have had the arms to get though. This year they only lost two key players (Number 1 pitcher, and number 3 hole hitter) You keep pointing out they lost to a 2-10 team and as others have posted they got beat by a good pitcher in a 4 game series that they otherwise completely dominated. It happens.
So for this year, the rest of the squad is back with some strong freshmen contributing, along with the expected growth of the rest of the team. They have a much improved offense, with one of the top offensive players in DIII ball. Their pitching is significantly deeper, with a dominant number one, (not quite as dominant as last year) but they have 2-5 pitchers with a strong bull pen and two late inning closer types. (actually maybe three now) They are not as good defensively this year, which is perplexing given the same guys are back, but it is what it is.
So from a "potential" standpoint and performance against the top teams they have played they are playing like a top ten team nationally, which is why they are ranked where they are. Are they a number 1 or 2 team in the country? Not IMO, but they are certainly a top 10 team and probably the second best team in the West. They will continue to develop and lets see what happens in 6 weeks.
While they have not broken through to Appleton they are always very competitive and there a certainly a lot of DIII teams that wish they had their success.
Trinity has never played (or perhaps I should say rarely in case there was a time I don't remember) what I would call a strong schedule. I can remember making this critique in the past and being criticized for it but it hasn't burned me yet.
This year is even worse. Why isn't Trinity playing Tyler? Why did they play 4 games against Rockford? They also could have played more games on their road trip west like some of the New Jersey and New York teams do. Get a few teams together and meet somewhere and play some games. I'm not too convinced that Trinity is playing the toughest schedule it could, even considering the circumstances. La Roche played at Marietta today on one day's notice. John Carroll played a few games in Beckley, W.Va. to try to get games in. Some teams play at 2 a.m. in the Metrodome. Huntingdon and Montclair went to Ohio to play 3 games. You do what you have to do. It's only going to be more important next year when every game counts the same for NCAA criteria.
As for what Trinity had last year, one might see that as a reason to doubt them this year. How often does a team that didn't win their region lose a first-team All-American pitcher that was draft quality and win their regional for the first time ever in the next year?
Quote from: Spence on March 26, 2013, 06:27:02 PMRespected does not mean winning, especially as to the Beacons. They caught lightning in a bottle in 2010, but have only had 2 other winning seasons in the last 30, including 2 straight losing seasons in 11 and 12. In the end Keene St.'s going to 5-10 and St. Joes loss to Endicott likely will remove St. Joes from the Top 25.Quote from: Hammer Ball on March 26, 2013, 11:13:35 AM
I am missing the reason behind the ranking given St. Joe's(ME) in both polls. Seems very high to me.
They do not have enough games to be given a SOS on boyds but their in-region SOS on D3baseball for 7 of their 9 games is 313! Is that right? They swept a 2-12 Rhode Island and 4-5 Ripon and beat a 4 loss Wheaton(MA) and 5-9 Keene St. Worst yet, they lost to a 3-6 UMass-Boston.
That 4-loss Wheaton took home a piece of wood last year from Appleton. UMass-Boston and Keene State are respected programs as well. Keene State has a lot of losses but they also beat Bowdoin and Western New England. St. Joe's also beat UMass-Boston and their other loss is to Webster who was also in Appleton last year.
If you extrapolated their record to teams that have played more games that would be 14-4 or 21-6 against mostly pretty good programs. It would surprise me if St. Joe's finishes with less than 28 wins, and they could end up with many more.
But at least they actually beat those 2-12 type teams they played. We've got a team in the top 5 that lost to a 2-10 team.
Quote from: infielddad on March 28, 2013, 10:09:30 AM
Spence has a very long history of seeming undue attention directed toward Trinity.
It may seem undue to you. To me it's completely due because this program is annually ranked higher than it should be because they play a lot of games early in the season and people notice.
Without knowing the logistics of trying to run a top D3program in the vast West Region, and in Texas, with little administration support until recently, he continues to play the game of Trinity "flaming" in the Regional.
I don't care what the logistics are. You do what you have to do. Almost everyone has problems to overcome in D-III. Distance, weather, money, time, resources...they're all a factor for most programs. No one said you only could play 1 game in a day or on a trip. Webster has a humdrum conference schedule so they went to Florida and played every good program they could before that conference slate starts. I already listed numerous other examples. Marietta used to play in Texas on their spring trip...did Trinity ever try to schedule a neutral site game against them? They played Texas Wesleyan at the Rangers ballpark a few times. I think you're going to have a hard time getting sympathy in a division where a bunch of northern teams scramble trying to put a season into 6 weeks.
Well, the fact is Trinity made 7 regionals since 2002 and played in the Championship game 4 times, if I calculate correctly, possibly 5 times.
Well with any assertion of fact on the Internet comes a fact check. Uh oh.
Last year they finished 2nd and had two chances to beat Whitworth and couldn't do it. That was really a golden opportunity going against a less experienced program with a supposed pitching advantage. 2011 -- 1-2, 2010 -- 0-2. 2009 they didn't make the regional at all. 2008 they won the first two and couldn't seal it against Chapman. 2007 went 1-2. 2006 -- 1-2. 2005 -- not in the regional. 2004 -- lost the first game, went 2-2. 2003 -- no regional.
So in the last decade (more than 7 years), that looks like 2 championship games. In that time Chapman, Whitworth, George Fox, Linfield have all won the regional and Concordia-Austin won it in 2002 and is so far the only Texas school to win the regional.
They have had the post season results despite a situation of not playing games for about 20 days following the SCAC Championships.
No one said you couldn't play games after that. Dixie/USA South regional-caliber programs have been doing it for years because Averett's academic schedule pushes the tournament forward. You can play up until I believe the Sunday before regionals.
Add to that the individual success of the Trinity program in having players drafted and those players having plenty of success in Milb as well as Summer Wood bat leagues and it seems clear Spence will pick out a loss to Rockford and avoid the great point made by JSG on the quality of the Rockford pitcher in that loss. As tigerfan noted, the goal here is to win and be ready for the SCAC's and win those and do everything possible to be prepared during that 20 day wait.
Quote from: Spence on March 28, 2013, 10:12:31 AMhard to fault a pitcher when he doesnt give up an earned run.Quote from: infielddad on March 28, 2013, 10:09:30 AM
Spence has a very long history of seeming undue attention directed toward Trinity.
It may seem undue to you. To me it's completely due because this program is annually ranked higher than it should be because they play a lot of games early in the season and people notice.
Without knowing the logistics of trying to run a top D3program in the vast West Region, and in Texas, with little administration support until recently, he continues to play the game of Trinity "flaming" in the Regional. Well, the fact is Trinity made 7 regionals since 2002 and played in the Championship game 4 times, if I calculate correctly, possibly 5 times. In the West, probably only Chapman would have overall better results since they have the coveted CWS,. Along the way, Trinity has beaten nearly every top team in the West Region and until the SAA split, the top teams in the South including Millsaps and BSC.
They have had the post season results despite a situation of not playing games for about 20 days following the SCAC Championships.
Add to that the individual success of the Trinity program in having players drafted and those players having plenty of success in Milb as well as Summer Wood bat leagues and it seems clear Spence will pick out a loss to Rockford and avoid the great point made by JSG on the quality of the Rockford pitcher in that loss. As tigerfan noted, the goal here is to win and be ready for the SCAC's and win those and do everything possible to be prepared during that 20 day wait.
You want to talk about the quality of the Rockford pitcher? Olivet beat him.
Quote from: tigerfan_2001 on March 28, 2013, 10:27:05 AMQuote from: Spence on March 28, 2013, 10:12:31 AMhard to fault a pitcher when he doesnt give up an earned run.Quote from: infielddad on March 28, 2013, 10:09:30 AM
Spence has a very long history of seeming undue attention directed toward Trinity.
It may seem undue to you. To me it's completely due because this program is annually ranked higher than it should be because they play a lot of games early in the season and people notice.
Without knowing the logistics of trying to run a top D3program in the vast West Region, and in Texas, with little administration support until recently, he continues to play the game of Trinity "flaming" in the Regional. Well, the fact is Trinity made 7 regionals since 2002 and played in the Championship game 4 times, if I calculate correctly, possibly 5 times. In the West, probably only Chapman would have overall better results since they have the coveted CWS,. Along the way, Trinity has beaten nearly every top team in the West Region and until the SAA split, the top teams in the South including Millsaps and BSC.
They have had the post season results despite a situation of not playing games for about 20 days following the SCAC Championships.
Add to that the individual success of the Trinity program in having players drafted and those players having plenty of success in Milb as well as Summer Wood bat leagues and it seems clear Spence will pick out a loss to Rockford and avoid the great point made by JSG on the quality of the Rockford pitcher in that loss. As tigerfan noted, the goal here is to win and be ready for the SCAC's and win those and do everything possible to be prepared during that 20 day wait.
You want to talk about the quality of the Rockford pitcher? Olivet beat him.
Quote from: Spence on March 28, 2013, 11:17:14 AMthanks, but i haven't played in a long long time, i wasn't facing anyone. And to answer your question, no, you dont stop pitching just because someone makes an error. However, that is the reason for the ERA, as in runs that were your fault.Quote from: tigerfan_2001 on March 28, 2013, 10:27:05 AMQuote from: Spence on March 28, 2013, 10:12:31 AMhard to fault a pitcher when he doesnt give up an earned run.Quote from: infielddad on March 28, 2013, 10:09:30 AM
Spence has a very long history of seeming undue attention directed toward Trinity.
It may seem undue to you. To me it's completely due because this program is annually ranked higher than it should be because they play a lot of games early in the season and people notice.
Without knowing the logistics of trying to run a top D3program in the vast West Region, and in Texas, with little administration support until recently, he continues to play the game of Trinity "flaming" in the Regional. Well, the fact is Trinity made 7 regionals since 2002 and played in the Championship game 4 times, if I calculate correctly, possibly 5 times. In the West, probably only Chapman would have overall better results since they have the coveted CWS,. Along the way, Trinity has beaten nearly every top team in the West Region and until the SAA split, the top teams in the South including Millsaps and BSC.
They have had the post season results despite a situation of not playing games for about 20 days following the SCAC Championships.
Add to that the individual success of the Trinity program in having players drafted and those players having plenty of success in Milb as well as Summer Wood bat leagues and it seems clear Spence will pick out a loss to Rockford and avoid the great point made by JSG on the quality of the Rockford pitcher in that loss. As tigerfan noted, the goal here is to win and be ready for the SCAC's and win those and do everything possible to be prepared during that 20 day wait.
You want to talk about the quality of the Rockford pitcher? Olivet beat him.
Why is it? Does a guy just stop pitching because there's an error behind him? Doesn't help your own cause when you walk 4 guys in 3 innings.
Time to stop pretending like you were facing an All-American.
Quote from: tigerfan_2001 on March 28, 2013, 11:52:47 AM
Isn't your big thing to judge teams on who they have played? Why would you bring up the fact that Rockford lost to Olivet, who is 5-3 on the year and has played the 25th hardest schedule. Seems losing to them isnt a bad thing.
Quote from: Spence on March 28, 2013, 12:07:55 PMso now we are going based on history, is that how you define a good team?Quote from: tigerfan_2001 on March 28, 2013, 11:52:47 AM
Isn't your big thing to judge teams on who they have played? Why would you bring up the fact that Rockford lost to Olivet, who is 5-3 on the year and has played the 25th hardest schedule. Seems losing to them isnt a bad thing.
I don't think Olivet has ever won their league. If they have, it's been a long time.
Quote from: CrashDavisD3 on March 28, 2013, 12:14:19 PMgood point....partly my fault. back on topic.
Seems we have strayed a bit from the TOP 25 TOPIC....
Quote from: infielddad on March 28, 2013, 12:01:57 PM
My gosh Spence, he got the loss to Olivet when he came on in relief, gave up 0 earned runs, and did so on 3 days rest following a 7 inning opening game in which the kid gave up one run and threw almost 100 pitches in his first outing of the season.
JSG is right with the very best on the knowledge of the West Region. Trinity does not play in the championship game of the West Regional so many times by being overrated. They beat darn good teams every year in every Regional but you can pick stuff out just like you did with the loss to Olivet and continue to criticize.
Doesn't bother anyone because JSG posts such solid information with clear objectivity and no axe to grind..
Quote from: tigerfan_2001 on March 28, 2013, 12:10:12 PMQuote from: Spence on March 28, 2013, 12:07:55 PMso now we are going based on history, is that how you define a good team?Quote from: tigerfan_2001 on March 28, 2013, 11:52:47 AM
Isn't your big thing to judge teams on who they have played? Why would you bring up the fact that Rockford lost to Olivet, who is 5-3 on the year and has played the 25th hardest schedule. Seems losing to them isnt a bad thing.
I don't think Olivet has ever won their league. If they have, it's been a long time.
Quote from: Spence on March 28, 2013, 12:37:57 PMthanks for the history lesson. also glad to know that history is what defines how good a team is currently. will keep that in mind.Quote from: tigerfan_2001 on March 28, 2013, 12:10:12 PMQuote from: Spence on March 28, 2013, 12:07:55 PMso now we are going based on history, is that how you define a good team?Quote from: tigerfan_2001 on March 28, 2013, 11:52:47 AM
Isn't your big thing to judge teams on who they have played? Why would you bring up the fact that Rockford lost to Olivet, who is 5-3 on the year and has played the 25th hardest schedule. Seems losing to them isnt a bad thing.
I don't think Olivet has ever won their league. If they have, it's been a long time.
EDIT: Never mind that's probably not a good idea on a college sports board.
Btw, I forgot how long the MIAA's been around...Olivet has won at least a share of the championship 5 times...twice in the last 98 years. Don't think too many are banking on this being their year either.
Quote from: tigerfan_2001 on March 28, 2013, 01:57:49 PMQuote from: Spence on March 28, 2013, 12:37:57 PMthanks for the history lesson. also glad to know that history is what defines how good a team is currently. will keep that in mind.Quote from: tigerfan_2001 on March 28, 2013, 12:10:12 PMQuote from: Spence on March 28, 2013, 12:07:55 PMso now we are going based on history, is that how you define a good team?Quote from: tigerfan_2001 on March 28, 2013, 11:52:47 AM
Isn't your big thing to judge teams on who they have played? Why would you bring up the fact that Rockford lost to Olivet, who is 5-3 on the year and has played the 25th hardest schedule. Seems losing to them isnt a bad thing.
I don't think Olivet has ever won their league. If they have, it's been a long time.
EDIT: Never mind that's probably not a good idea on a college sports board.
Btw, I forgot how long the MIAA's been around...Olivet has won at least a share of the championship 5 times...twice in the last 98 years. Don't think too many are banking on this being their year either.
Quote from: Spence on March 28, 2013, 03:45:09 PMyou commented that the guy that beat Trinity lost to Olivet, implying that Olivet is not very good. They are 5-3, according to d3baseball and their SOS is 46th. That seems like a pretty good record with a challenging schedule. Not sure why you laugh at it.Quote from: tigerfan_2001 on March 28, 2013, 01:57:49 PMQuote from: Spence on March 28, 2013, 12:37:57 PMthanks for the history lesson. also glad to know that history is what defines how good a team is currently. will keep that in mind.Quote from: tigerfan_2001 on March 28, 2013, 12:10:12 PMQuote from: Spence on March 28, 2013, 12:07:55 PMso now we are going based on history, is that how you define a good team?Quote from: tigerfan_2001 on March 28, 2013, 11:52:47 AM
Isn't your big thing to judge teams on who they have played? Why would you bring up the fact that Rockford lost to Olivet, who is 5-3 on the year and has played the 25th hardest schedule. Seems losing to them isnt a bad thing.
I don't think Olivet has ever won their league. If they have, it's been a long time.
EDIT: Never mind that's probably not a good idea on a college sports board.
Btw, I forgot how long the MIAA's been around...Olivet has won at least a share of the championship 5 times...twice in the last 98 years. Don't think too many are banking on this being their year either.
I just looked at their supposed tough schedule...you make me laugh. Ignorance is bliss, I suppose.
Quote from: tigerfan_2001 on March 28, 2013, 04:00:15 PMQuote from: Spence on March 28, 2013, 03:45:09 PMyou commented that the guy that beat Trinity lost to Olivet, implying that Olivet is not very good. They are 5-3, according to d3baseball and their SOS is 46th. That seems like a pretty good record with a challenging schedule. Not sure why you laugh at it.Quote from: tigerfan_2001 on March 28, 2013, 01:57:49 PMQuote from: Spence on March 28, 2013, 12:37:57 PMthanks for the history lesson. also glad to know that history is what defines how good a team is currently. will keep that in mind.Quote from: tigerfan_2001 on March 28, 2013, 12:10:12 PMQuote from: Spence on March 28, 2013, 12:07:55 PMso now we are going based on history, is that how you define a good team?Quote from: tigerfan_2001 on March 28, 2013, 11:52:47 AM
Isn't your big thing to judge teams on who they have played? Why would you bring up the fact that Rockford lost to Olivet, who is 5-3 on the year and has played the 25th hardest schedule. Seems losing to them isnt a bad thing.
I don't think Olivet has ever won their league. If they have, it's been a long time.
EDIT: Never mind that's probably not a good idea on a college sports board.
Btw, I forgot how long the MIAA's been around...Olivet has won at least a share of the championship 5 times...twice in the last 98 years. Don't think too many are banking on this being their year either.
I just looked at their supposed tough schedule...you make me laugh. Ignorance is bliss, I suppose.
Quote from: Spence on March 28, 2013, 01:47:41 AMQuote from: 108 Stitches on March 27, 2013, 01:34:52 PMQuote
Well there's been George Fox, who actually won it all, and Linfield made a respectable showing in Appleton. CUA has been there as well. So I wouldn't say that no one besides Chapman has shown anything. I don't think it's too much different than how Marietta has dominated the Mideast...other programs have made the series and shown well, but no one else has won a championship.
I just want to see the programs that make an effort and play a reasonably challenging schedule to be given credit for that. I don't know where you're supposed to rank Trinity right now because I just don't know how you're supposed to know anything about them. It's about like UW-Oshkosh or Otterbein right now...only 28 games into the season. I've got Otterbein something like 6th in the Mideast right now and that won't change until they play someone good. I imagine Midwest region observers have a similar "I'm from Missouri" attitude about Oshkosh. Hard to see them any higher than 5th.
Trinity has historically played a challenging schedule, but this year the stars aligned and has made it weaker. This is not their fault. Geographically they have limitations, but they do a home/away every year with Chapman who is historically one of the top teams in the country.
As far as knowing about the team, last year it was one game short of going to Appleton, they lost their number two pitcher late in the year which most feel if he was healthy they would have had the arms to get though. This year they only lost two key players (Number 1 pitcher, and number 3 hole hitter) You keep pointing out they lost to a 2-10 team and as others have posted they got beat by a good pitcher in a 4 game series that they otherwise completely dominated. It happens.
So for this year, the rest of the squad is back with some strong freshmen contributing, along with the expected growth of the rest of the team. They have a much improved offense, with one of the top offensive players in DIII ball. Their pitching is significantly deeper, with a dominant number one, (not quite as dominant as last year) but they have 2-5 pitchers with a strong bull pen and two late inning closer types. (actually maybe three now) They are not as good defensively this year, which is perplexing given the same guys are back, but it is what it is.
So from a "potential" standpoint and performance against the top teams they have played they are playing like a top ten team nationally, which is why they are ranked where they are. Are they a number 1 or 2 team in the country? Not IMO, but they are certainly a top 10 team and probably the second best team in the West. They will continue to develop and lets see what happens in 6 weeks.
While they have not broken through to Appleton they are always very competitive and there a certainly a lot of DIII teams that wish they had their success.
Trinity has never played (or perhaps I should say rarely in case there was a time I don't remember) what I would call a strong schedule. I can remember making this critique in the past and being criticized for it but it hasn't burned me yet.
This year is even worse. Why isn't Trinity playing Tyler? Why did they play 4 games against Rockford? They also could have played more games on their road trip west like some of the New Jersey and New York teams do. Get a few teams together and meet somewhere and play some games. I'm not too convinced that Trinity is playing the toughest schedule it could, even considering the circumstances. La Roche played at Marietta today on one day's notice. John Carroll played a few games in Beckley, W.Va. to try to get games in. Some teams play at 2 a.m. in the Metrodome. Huntingdon and Montclair went to Ohio to play 3 games. You do what you have to do. It's only going to be more important next year when every game counts the same for NCAA criteria.
As for what Trinity had last year, one might see that as a reason to doubt them this year. How often does a team that didn't win their region lose a first-team All-American pitcher that was draft quality and win their regional for the first time ever in the next year?
Quote from: CrashDavisD3 on March 28, 2013, 04:27:42 PM
Does it hurt there Trinity that their last game could be April 28th for SCAC Championship and then not play until May 15-18 for Regional. That is OVER 2 WEEKS not playing another team....Makes it hard to get thru a regional. I see it as being their number 1 problem in prior years not winning a regional.
Also teams can win a regional without their #1 All American pitcher available. Chapman did in 2009. Also in 2011 Chapman got to the Championship game also without the 3 time #1 All American pitcher.
Quote from: 108 Stitches on March 28, 2013, 05:08:39 PM
Speaking of this what are the prospects for a SAA team getting into a regional this year?
Quote from: infielddad on March 28, 2013, 08:34:56 PM
You have every right to be proud of Marietta. They have a very long history of being a top D3 program and can recruit a very fertile area rather than against top DI's, JC's, DII's and baseball scholarships, which is the case with schools like Trinity and Chapman. Different programs in different areas with different challenges and Marietta makes the best of them, for sure.
Yeah, there's a lot less baseball talent in Texas and California :P
Believe it or not, D-Is and JUCO D-Is recruit the north too. Most of the top players in the cities in Ohio and PA go to either local D-Is (of which there are like 10 in Ohio alone) or down south. There are also not that many JUCOs nearby to draw from up north.
Since you seem to be suggesting I posted something clearly false to be called on, what I posted is Trinity has been to 7 Regionals since 2002. They played in the final game in those 7 Regionals at least 4 times, losing to the team which went to Appleton.
I already demonstrated that this is false. I suggest you reread the post. That's all I'm saying. It is impossible to go 1-2 in a regional and play in the championship. It cannot happen.
You have your opinions on the top 25 worked from your perspective.
JSG has his. One thing we can disagree about is whether a team/program is overrated when they play in the final game of a Regional at least 4 times in 10 years, coupled with the number of players drafted during that same time. You use selective information one way and I use other information a different way.
There is nothing more to be said I don't think and this topic should go back to the top 25 where it belongs.
Quote from: 108 Stitches on March 28, 2013, 05:08:39 PMI know of one program that the Student Athletes that took their finals in hotel lobbies, baseball dugouts and baseball stadium stands for several years in a row. Several of those student athletes have gone on to become doctors, lawyers, and CPA's at major accounting firms. So both can be done. Being a student and athlete and play baseball during the finals.
Spence you made a comment to Infielddad to not post to your posts, may I suggest you take your own advice, just let this go so we can move on to some other interesting top 25 discussions. I actually enjoy hearing about teams from other regions and what is happening. Speaking of this what are the prospects for a SAA team getting into a regional this year?
One thing we all seem to forget is that all of the players Student Athletes and I do know that TU's finals are May 8-14 which would preclude playing real games during this period of time. (or at least I am sure the administration would have some say in this regardless what the coach wants)
Quote from: MIACLUV on March 29, 2013, 12:03:20 PM
Soooo... how about those rankings ;D
Quote from: Spence on March 29, 2013, 04:17:20 PMand should fall out of the top 25 now that most programs have 10-15 games under their belts.
Observation relevant to top 25 discussion: Trinity now has 3 losses in their last 4 home games and is 3 games back of first in their conference.
Quote from: Spence on March 28, 2013, 08:25:06 PMQuote from: 108 Stitches on March 28, 2013, 05:08:39 PM
Speaking of this what are the prospects for a SAA team getting into a regional this year?
Decent maybe? I think Huntingdon is the top Pool B down south but Millsaps or BSC could certainly play their way in. Case Western Reserve and Washington STL are candidates as well. Then of course there's Ithaca and St. John Fisher, and then who knows what anyone will do with St. Joes Brooklyn if they keep this pace.
Quote from: Spence on March 29, 2013, 02:29:48 PMThey have to be in the talks, they held pitching to throw at the University of Minnesota and it cost them a couple games against Stout but played Minnesota well in a 3-1 loss. Also had a very nice spring trip picking up good wins over UW-Lacrosse and Buena Vista. In the LAX game they knocked out Joel Effertz after 4.2 innings on 9 hits and 8 ER. For those that don't know who that kid is, you will! Senior transfer from the University of Virginia that has been drafted twice with a low to mid 90's fastball and 2-3 secondary pitches to go along with it. Saw LAX in their first games of the year and it was impressive. Scouts had him still sitting 93 in the 6th inning when they pulled him out.Quote from: MIACLUV on March 29, 2013, 12:03:20 PM
Soooo... how about those rankings ;D
I thought about posting the same thing last night haha.
Anyone other than St. Thomas warrant consideration from the MIAC? I've been wondering about Hamline and Bethel but I'm not there yet.
Quote from: Just_Some_Guy on March 30, 2013, 09:54:41 AMQuote from: Spence on March 28, 2013, 08:25:06 PMQuote from: 108 Stitches on March 28, 2013, 05:08:39 PM
Speaking of this what are the prospects for a SAA team getting into a regional this year?
Decent maybe? I think Huntingdon is the top Pool B down south but Millsaps or BSC could certainly play their way in. Case Western Reserve and Washington STL are candidates as well. Then of course there's Ithaca and St. John Fisher, and then who knows what anyone will do with St. Joes Brooklyn if they keep this pace.
Huntingdon has played well against the SAA this year and also took 2 of 3 from Emory so they may be a pool B lock for the South, but I'm wondering how the 2 losses to Mississippi College will impact their road to the regional. The Choctaws are 12-15 and in danger of not making the ASC tournament this year. I guess we'll see if MC can complete the sweep today.
A few other observations from out West (team's current D3baseball ranking in parenthesis):
- Linfield (1) continues to look like a top tier team in the country.
- Trinity's (3) 2 losses to Centenary will certainly drop them in the polls.
- UT Tyler (14) struggled on the bump against Ozarks; will be nice to see them against Centenary next week.
- Texas Lutheran (RV) has quietly gone 9-0 in conference play so far beating people they're supposed to beat.
- The SCIAC still looks like a 2 horse race with Cal Lu (RV) & Pomona (RV) both taking care of business yesterday.
- After dropping 2 of 3 to Whitman last week GFU is trying to stay in the Pool C hunt despite a 3 game series with Linfield left.
JSG
Quote from: MIACLUV on March 30, 2013, 11:11:19 AMQuote from: Spence on March 29, 2013, 02:29:48 PMThey have to be in the talks, they held pitching to throw at the University of Minnesota and it cost them a couple games against Stout but played Minnesota well in a 3-1 loss. Also had a very nice spring trip picking up good wins over UW-Lacrosse and Buena Vista. In the LAX game they knocked out Joel Effertz after 4.2 innings on 9 hits and 8 ER. For those that don't know who that kid is, you will! Senior transfer from the University of Virginia that has been drafted twice with a low to mid 90's fastball and 2-3 secondary pitches to go along with it. Saw LAX in their first games of the year and it was impressive. Scouts had him still sitting 93 in the 6th inning when they pulled him out.Quote from: MIACLUV on March 29, 2013, 12:03:20 PM
Soooo... how about those rankings ;D
I thought about posting the same thing last night haha.
Anyone other than St. Thomas warrant consideration from the MIAC? I've been wondering about Hamline and Bethel but I'm not there yet.
Quote from: rob on March 31, 2013, 04:17:51 PMI would say yes...Cortland is one that did not lose...Linfield and Trinity lose and should both drop in the polls along with Salisbury. Lose you should drop and win and you should rise. IMO
With a Linfield loss this week, will we have another new #1?
Quote from: Spence on April 01, 2013, 04:01:20 PMYou may be right, Linfield could stay at #1. I'm not sure what being "#1 by a significant enough amount" means though. According to the poll itself there weren't many votes separating the top 5 or so teams.
I think Linfield was #1 by a significant enough amount that they should stay there. No guarantee that they will.
Starting to look really familiar in the top 15 or so.
1. Linfield
2. Cortland State
3. St. Thomas
4. St. Scholastica
5. Webster
6. Wheaton (Mass.)
Quote from: rob on April 01, 2013, 04:42:24 PMQuote from: Spence on April 01, 2013, 04:01:20 PMYou may be right, Linfield could stay at #1. I'm not sure what being "#1 by a significant enough amount" means though. According to the poll itself there weren't many votes separating the top 5 or so teams.
I think Linfield was #1 by a significant enough amount that they should stay there. No guarantee that they will.
Starting to look really familiar in the top 15 or so.
1. Linfield
2. Cortland State
3. St. Thomas
4. St. Scholastica
5. Webster
6. Wheaton (Mass.)
Quote from: CrashDavisD3 on April 01, 2013, 05:35:33 PM
IMO Linfield lost this weekend and they should move down from #1. Cortland won and should move up to #1. Linfield's loss was to Puget Sound(11-15). Use facts not gut feel and opinion to support your views.
Quote from: CrashDavisD3 on April 01, 2013, 05:35:33 PM
IMO Linfield lost this weekend and they should move down from #1. Cortland won and should move up to #1. Linfield's loss was to Puget Sound(11-15). Use facts not gut feel and opinion to support your views.
Quote from: Just_Some_Guy on April 01, 2013, 06:47:32 PMQuote from: CrashDavisD3 on April 01, 2013, 05:35:33 PM
IMO Linfield lost this weekend and they should move down from #1. Cortland won and should move up to #1. Linfield's loss was to Puget Sound(11-15). Use facts not gut feel and opinion to support your views.
Seems unnecessary. Don't have to agree with Spence. Don't even have to like the guy, but he clearly puts a fair amount of thought into his rankings. I primarily follow the west region so I appreciate it when guys like Spence, Big Poppa, Ricky and others provide their nation-wide insights. It gives me a frame of reference to dive a bit deeper where I'm unfamiliar.
Most of us don't get paid to spend any time here and our personal rankings don't matter in the scheme of things. Hell, the current top 25 doesn't even really matter in the scheme of things. There's no right or wrong way to go about providing our own personal opinions and insights. I'd venture Spence does it a bit more objectively than most. Providing rationale why for why you disagree based on W/L makes sense. Attacking his approach to sharing his top 25 doesn't.
But that's just my $0.02 and it's probably not worth that.
JSG
Quote from: CrashDavisD3 on April 01, 2013, 10:28:29 PM
Nothing to be upset about. Everyone has an opinion. No one is right or wrong and these are just polls for discussions. I can tell you coaches and players never care what we say or do on these boards. I am sure there are good reasons people have their views.
Quote from: CrashDavisD3 on April 01, 2013, 10:28:29 PM
Nothing to be upset about. Everyone has an opinion. No one is right or wrong and these are just polls for discussions. I can tell you coaches and players never care what we say or do on these boards. I am sure there are good reasons people have their views.
Quote from: BigPoppa on April 02, 2013, 12:02:49 PMI guess I am wrong again. Not the first and it wont be the last. It's great to get feedback from people who have access to more information.Quote from: CrashDavisD3 on April 01, 2013, 10:28:29 PM
Nothing to be upset about. Everyone has an opinion. No one is right or wrong and these are just polls for discussions. I can tell you coaches and players never care what we say or do on these boards. I am sure there are good reasons people have their views.
I beg to differ... at times, I have been contacted by coaches (and quality coaches at that) who ask my thoughts and opinions on what this board says and does. Believe it or not, much of the nation pays close attention to what we do and say. We may THINK we don't have any impact, but my experiences would say differently.
(especially near tourney time... people want outside opinions on where others feel they stand)
Quote from: Boysofsummer21 on April 01, 2013, 11:12:10 PMNope. Glad to have you on the bandwagon. It's been lonely.
I am really liking me so Rampo and Johns Hopkins is it to early to get on that wagon?
Quote from: Ricky Nelson on April 02, 2013, 01:01:20 PMA good case can be made for Rampo as #1....Quote from: Boysofsummer21 on April 01, 2013, 11:12:10 PMNope. Glad to have you on the bandwagon. It's been lonely.
I am really liking me so Rampo and Johns Hopkins is it to early to get on that wagon?
Quote from: CrashDavisD3 on April 02, 2013, 01:15:39 PMThe Roadrunners did get one first-place vote this week.Quote from: Ricky Nelson on April 02, 2013, 01:01:20 PMA good case can be made for Rampo as #1....Quote from: Boysofsummer21 on April 01, 2013, 11:12:10 PMNope. Glad to have you on the bandwagon. It's been lonely.
I am really liking me so Rampo and Johns Hopkins is it to early to get on that wagon?
http://www.boydsworld.com/baseball/isr/d3_isr.html
Quote from: CrashDavisD3 on April 05, 2013, 01:03:01 AM
In 2014 Regional Rankings will be based on ALL D3 games played not just in region. If I am wrong please correct me.
Quote from: BigPoppa on April 05, 2013, 09:42:48 AMAll I got to say to many teams is win your a Pool A Bid and you don't stay home. That just leaves the Pool B/Pool C teams that have to leave it up to the MAGIC formula and committee to get in.Quote from: CrashDavisD3 on April 05, 2013, 01:03:01 AM
In 2014 Regional Rankings will be based on ALL D3 games played not just in region. If I am wrong please correct me.
I believe you are correct... it will interesting to see how this plays out. There will surely be a team this year left out based on the 2013 criteris that would be in based on the 2014 criteria and vice-versa.
Quote from: Whatagame on April 04, 2013, 07:57:06 PMAgree
Interesting to compare the D3.com Top 25 versus the ABCA versus Boyd's ISR's for this week. Things are starting to fall into place, although the ABCA and Boyd's are valuing the resumes of Cal Lutheran, George Fox and Pomona-Pitzer higher than D3 poll.
The strength of schedule numbers between Boyd's and D3.com are still very different from each other, even with a large majority of teams in the nation having played at least 12 - 15 games. Who's got it correct?
Personally, I like the Boyd's World SOS, it seems to reward a more even mixture of teams across the country who have made the decision to play tough schedules.
Quote from: Spence on April 08, 2013, 01:43:07 AMWouldn't DOMA prevent you from marrying ISR's anyway?
In case anyone cares, here's what I've got for a top 25 for the week.
Re: the ISRs, I look at it but I'm not married to it.
1. Linfield
2. St. Thomas
3. UW-Whitewater
4. UW-Stevens Point
5. Cal Lutheran
6. Kean
7. Johns Hopkins
8. St. Scholastica
9. Webster
10. Wheaton (Mass.)
11. Manchester
12. Illinois Wesleyan
13. Wartburg
14. UT-Tyler
15. Marietta
16. Cortland State
17. Ramapo
18. Keystone
19. Salisbury
20. George Fox
21. Huntingdon
22. Haverford
23. Augustana
24. Misericordia
25. Southern Maine
Quote from: CrashDavisD3 on April 09, 2013, 11:35:39 AM
A new #1. Teams lose drop, teams win rise.
http://www.d3baseball.com/top25/2013/2013week-7
Trivia question:
Which team has beaten 4 top 25 teams this year(1,10,18, 22) in this week's poll BUT has a losing record. ??? ??? ???
Quote from: 108 Stitches on April 11, 2013, 11:51:35 AM
Sorry to say Spence this usually happens in Appleton, and usually they lose.....
Quote from: Spence on April 11, 2013, 12:04:45 PMWhich has been one of my objections to the change in the rules, too.Quote from: 108 Stitches on April 11, 2013, 11:51:35 AM
Sorry to say Spence this usually happens in Appleton, and usually they lose.....
I don't think a SCIAC team has ever been to Appleton. Chapman did of course, but before they were in the SCIAC. Cal Lu and Laverne went to Salem, and there they did quite well. But that's been quite a while now. Maybe Cal Lu will have the stuff this year.
FWIW I expect some of these cross-country no-return-game arrangements will be harder to come by in the game-is-a-game era.
Quote from: doodlesdad on April 11, 2013, 03:59:06 AMWe have seen the SCIAC in action against other region teams over the last decade. They have not excelled against the outside competition.
Kean is 2-3 against the SCIAC this year, while Linfield is 1-1 with four games down here this weekend (three with Pomona-Pitzer, one with La Verne), Trinity (Texas) is 2-1 and George Fox is 3-3. All are ranked higher in the D3.com than SCIAC leader Cal Lutheran and No. 2 Pomona-Pitzer. Overall, the SCIAC is a solid 46-38-1 in nonconference play; take out the two dreadful bottom feeders (Claremont-Mudd-Scripss and Caltech), plus subpar Chapman and Whittier (all below .500), and the top five are 36-12-1. 8-)
Quote from: Spence on April 13, 2013, 09:20:15 PM
And as if on cue, Linfield sweeps Pomona-Pitzer in dominant fashion.
Quote from: Spence on April 14, 2013, 06:04:24 PM
To me it shows how good Linfield is. Long trip, 4 true road games in 4 days, all pretty solid wins assuming they don't let 12-0 get away.
Quote from: Spence on April 14, 2013, 06:51:35 PM
1. Linfield
2. St. Thomas
3. UW-Whitewater
4. Cal Lutheran
5. Johns Hopkins
6. UW-Stevens Point POOL C
7. Kean
8. St. Scholastica
9. Webster
10. Southern Maine
11. Manchester
12. Illinois Wesleyan
13. Wartburg
14. Wheaton (Mass.)
15. UT-Tyler
16. Marietta
17. Cortland State
18. Ramapo POOL C
19. George Fox POOL C
20. Huntingdon POOL B
21. Salisbury
22. Millsaps POOL B
23. Augustana POOL C
24. Ithaca POOL B
25. Case Western Reserve POOL B/C depending on whether there will be 3 or 4 Pool B bids when the final Handbook comes out
Quote from: Ralph Turner on April 19, 2013, 05:13:08 PM
Here is Spence's Top 25 and how they would make the playoffs, if current "seeding" stood.Quote from: Spence on April 14, 2013, 06:51:35 PM
1. Linfield
2. St. Thomas
3. UW-Whitewater
4. Cal Lutheran
5. Johns Hopkins
6. UW-Stevens Point POOL C
7. Kean
8. St. Scholastica
9. Webster
10. Southern Maine
11. Manchester
12. Illinois Wesleyan
13. Wartburg
14. Wheaton (Mass.)
15. UT-Tyler
16. Marietta
17. Cortland State
18. Ramapo POOL C
19. George Fox POOL C
20. Huntingdon POOL B
21. Salisbury
22. Millsaps POOL B
23. Augustana POOL C
24. Ithaca POOL B
25. Case Western Reserve POOL B/C depending on whether there will be 3 or 4 Pool B bids when the final Handbook comes out
Quote from: Ralph Turner on April 19, 2013, 10:14:07 PM
Fun time of year! :)
Quote from: Hammer Ball on May 10, 2016, 02:33:33 PM
Johns Hopkins loses 4 of it's last 6, the Conf championship (won by Haverford), finishes 1/2 game over Haverford in Conf by virtue of a tie and goes 0-4 agst Haverford, yet JHU gets 3 Top 25 votes to Haverfords 2. . . . . Voters please pay attention.
Quote from: BigPoppa on May 10, 2016, 02:52:18 PMQuote from: Hammer Ball on May 10, 2016, 02:33:33 PM
Johns Hopkins loses 4 of it's last 6, the Conf championship (won by Haverford), finishes 1/2 game over Haverford in Conf by virtue of a tie and goes 0-4 agst Haverford, yet JHU gets 3 Top 25 votes to Haverfords 2. . . . . Voters please pay attention.
The vote doesn't ONLY take into account conference games... it looks at a lot of factors. All that really matters in the NCAA Regional Rankings, not the Top 25 Poll. Hopkins is 4th while Haverford in 7th in the latest Mid-Atlantic Regional Ranking.
Quote from: ElRetornodelEspencio on May 14, 2016, 10:30:25 PM
Haverford is now ahead of Hopkins in the regional rankings.
There will probably be teams in the top 25 that won't get bids. Occidental is unlikely to, and Buena Vista, St. Thomas and Wartburg will likely all be on the bubble. There may be a couple more depending on how much the committee adjusts the regional rankings.
| # School (1st votes) | Rec | Pts | Prev. | Reg Rec. (Standing**) | World Series |
| .... | |||||
| 1 UW-Whitewater (19) | 31-6 | 618 | 1 | 2-3 (3) | * |
| 2 Rowan (3) | 33-9 | 566 | 4 | 2-2 (4) | * |
| 3 Mass-Boston | 34-8 | 560 | 5 | 4-2 (2) New Eng Reg | * |
| 4 Wooster (3) | 36-8 | 539 | 2 | 4-0 (1) | 0-2 |
| 5 Randolph-Macon | 31-7-1 | 508 | 3 | 4-0 (1) | Bracket Finalist 2-2 |
| 6 Texas Lutheran | 34-9 | 452 | 6 | 4-0 (1) | Finalist 4-1 |
| 7 UW-Oshkosh | 31-8 | 423 | 7 | 3-2 (2) Midwest Reg | * |
| 8 Concordia-Chicago | 33-12 | 383 | 10 | 5-1 (1) | Bracket Finalist 2-2 |
| 9 Cortland | 32-10 | 368 | 9 | 3-2 (3) | * |
| 10 Salisbury | 33-10 | 348 | 15 | 1-2 (4) | * |
| 11 TCNJ | 28-9 | 325 | 12 | 1-2 (4) | * |
| 12 Franklin | 38-3 | 307 | 14 | 1-2 (4) | * |
| 13 Christopher Newport | 32-10 | 281 | 11 | 3-2 (2) South Reg | * |
| 14 La Roche | 34-8-1 | 263 | 16 | 1-2 (4) | * |
| 15 Chapman | 34-11 | 259 | 19 | 1-2 (4) | * |
| 16 Shenandoah | 34-10 | 246 | 18 | 1-2 (4) | * |
| 17 Trinity (Texas) | 33-9 | 238 | 8 | not selected | * |
| 18 Webster | 36-8 | 228 | 20 | 2-2 (3) | * |
| 19 Redlands | 33-11 | 196 | 17 | 0-2 (5) | * |
| 20 Roanoke | 31-11 | 184 | 13 | not selected | * |
| 21 Keystone | 34-10 | 136 | 21 | 2-2 (4) | * |
| 22 Oswego State | 26-12 | 126 | 23 | 4-0 (1) | 0-2 |
| 23 Babson | 32-10 | 97 | rv | 3-2 (2) Mid-Atl Reg | * |
24 Southern Maine | 27-13 | 62 | 22 | 3-2 (2) New York Reg | * |
| 25 Adrian | 33-10 | 56 | rv | 2-2 (3) | * |
| . | |||||
| RV Swarthmore | 32-9 | 17 | rv | 4-0 (1) | 1-2 |
| RV Rhodes | 29-14 | 11 | rv | 3-2 (2) Central Reg | * |
| * | |||||
| * Misericordia | 31-12 | ** | ** | 5-1 (1) | 1-2 |
| * Texas- Tyler | 29-16 | ** | rv | 6-1 (1) | 3-1 Finalist |
| * Wabash | 28-15 | ** | ** | 4-2 (2) Mideast Reg | ** |
| * Willamette | 28-17 | ** | ** | 3-2 (2) West Reg | ** |