Of course it is very early to start talking about the 2015 season. But with National Signing Day behind us now, we are probably only about a month away from official school announcements of incoming freshmen players. What are your thoughts on pre-season favorites/standings/rankings.
I think Wheaton (IL) may be ranked number one going into the season. They finished as national runners-up and they return three All-Region players and two All-Americans, plus a host of other starters and major contributors. We will have to see what their incoming class looks like and of course it may take some time for their new coach to gain traction. But on paper based on pure known talent and player experience they may well be placed at the top.
Of course, we expect Tufts, the reigning champions to be right there too.
The other normal cast of characters will probably be present towards the top too, including...SUNY Oneonta, OWU, Brandeis, Trinity, Kenyon, F&M, Christopher Newport and others. I know I'm missing several potential pre-season favorites, so please chime in.
It will be interesting to see where Messiah gets placed pre-season. Returning only 3 or 4 starters from last year, that includes I believe just two all-conference players, it will be interesting to see what people think of them prior to the season. As others have pointed out on this site before, Messiah has faced "re-buidling" years before and bounced right back with a vengeance. So you can never, ever count them out. And honestly, even given the large senior class that they lost, I expect to see them placed somewhere near the top before the season begins.
My dark horse... Gordon College. I don't think they will be top national caliber yet, but with the multi-year signing of Derek Potteiger at the helm, I think we will see them continue to gain momentum and possibly make the big dance this year. A lot will depend on the strength of their incoming freshmen players. It's my dark horse, so time will tell and we will see.
Looking forward to seeing others thoughts and comments as we start to think about the 2015 season.
Too early to tell until announcements come out....both wheaton and tufts lost key players and return key starters. Tufts plays in a difficult conference where teams tend to beat each other up so their path may be a bit more difficult...but they are talented and have a fantastic midfield. Messiah will be strong... I liken them to Kentucky basketball...retooling every year....
I think you're right, Wheaton and Messiah will be the two best teams in the country at least in the preseason or on paper. Wheaton is returning most of its very good players from arguably the second most talented team in the country last year after Messiah. Even having graduated their "best class ever" Messiah will always reload.... they had a lot of fantastic players on the bench and I'm sure they'll bring in another top recruiting class. I think Wheaton is the favorite though...Senior/Junior talent.
I don't see Tufts being as good or doing anything close to what happened this year. They lost almost all of their notable players and that's hard to come back from. I'm sure they'll be able to leverage the national championship for recruiting purposes, but to what degree is the question. They were excellent but that run last year was at least one part magic.
Gordon should be very good and I would be very surprised if they don't win their conference this coming year. They will be in the clear favorites again and hope to avoid something like last year's hiccup. They are bringing an excellent new class.... I understand that announcement should be coming out soon. They are returning 12 of their 14 top players this year.
Interestingly Tufts is playing Gordon early this coming season. We will get a good read on how good Gordon is, if they can make a run in the tournament, rather than just making the tournament.....and if Tufts is as powerful and can compete for the nescac title again. I'm sure Mr. Right would have an opinion about how this match will turn out.....
Quote from: 4231CenterBack on February 08, 2015, 06:04:39 PM
I think you're right, Wheaton and Messiah will be the two best teams in the country at least in the preseason or on paper. Wheaton is returning most of its very good players from arguably the second most talented team in the country last year after Messiah. Even having graduated their "best class ever" Messiah will always reload.... they had a lot of fantastic players on the bench and I'm sure they'll bring in another top recruiting class. I think Wheaton is the favorite though...Senior/Junior talent.
I don't see Tufts being as good or doing anything close to what happened this year. They lost almost all of their notable players and that's hard to come back from. I'm sure they'll be able to leverage the national championship for recruiting purposes, but to what degree is the question. They were excellent but that run last year was at least one part magic.
Gordon should be very good and I would be very surprised if they don't win their conference this coming year. They will be in the clear favorites again and hope to avoid something like last year's hiccup. They are bringing an excellent new class.... I understand that announcement should be coming out soon. They are returning 12 of their 14 top players this year.
Interestingly Tufts is playing Gordon early this coming season. We will get a good read on how good Gordon is, if they can make a run in the tournament, rather than just making the tournament.....and if Tufts is as powerful and can compete for the nescac title again. I'm sure Mr. Right would have an opinion about how this match will turn out.....
Tufts is returning their second and third leading scorers and one of their stud defenders is supposedly returning for a 5th year. Tufts goalie returns. Wheaton's goalie isn't anything close to being as talented.Also, Tufts was better than Wheaton last year. Don't know how you say Wheaton was more talented. Tufts beat Messiah. Tufts beat Wheaton pretty handily. Given this, I do think it will be more difficult for Tufts than Wheaton. They play a harder schedule and are in a better conference...
Yes, Tufts beat Messiah but Messiah was certainly more talented. Yes, Tufts beat Wheaton but I believe Wheaton was more talented. Wheaton had the majority of the possession and bossed the game for signifcant parts of the match. I give full credit to Tufts. They were defensively well organized and countered brilliantly. It was a pleasure to watch them shock both teams..... Especially Messiah....and good for D3 college soccer. Again in my opinion, if they played 10 times Wheaton wins 7-10 and Messiah maybe 8-10.
Also, if you saw the final match the Tufts goalkeeper made a huge save with the score at 3-2. Had he not made that save Tufts was in big trouble. The 4th goal was a great counter that happened as a result of Wheaton's pressing for the equalizer. Again, I am happy Tufts won, but it was far from easy.
Quote from: 4231CenterBack on February 08, 2015, 06:56:55 PM
Yes, Tufts beat Messiah but Messiah was certainly more talented. Yes, Tufts beat Wheaton but I believe Wheaton was more talented. Wheaton had the majority of the possession and bossed the game for signifcant parts of the match. I give full credit to Tufts. They were defensively well organized and countered brilliantly. It was a pleasure to watch them shock both teams..... Especially Messiah....and good for D3 college soccer. Again in my opinion, if they played 10 times Wheaton wins 7-10 and Messiah maybe 8-10.
Tufts went up 3-0 against Wheaton at half and then sat back to defend, a strategy I don't always agree on. So, naturally Wheaton had possession.. I think Tufts wins 8 of 10, especially given Wheaton's shaky goaltending. And, if you watched tufts v messiah, tufts outplayed them in the second half. I do agree that messiah had more talent. I think messiah and tufts had the best midfield groups, that is all 4 players....
Quote from: 4231CenterBack on February 08, 2015, 07:11:08 PM
Also, if you saw the final match the Tufts goalkeeper made a huge save with the score at 3-2. Had he not made that save Tufts was in big trouble. The 4th goal was a great counter that happened as a result of Wheaton's pressing for the equalizer. Again, I am happy Tufts won, but it was far from easy.
Yes, and tufts missed 2 easy breakaways... Hoopenot shot right at the goalie and majumder missed on a feed from Kayne....
We will have to agree to disagree on the relative talent levels of the two teams. I do hope Tufts is good again. Lord knows I can't stand watching Amherst beat up on the NESCAC. It's good to have another team that can contend while playing good soccer.
Quote from: 4231CenterBack on February 08, 2015, 07:23:58 PM
We will have to agree to disagree on the relative talent levels of the two teams. I do hope Tufts is good again. Lord knows I can't stand watching Amherst beat up on the NESCAC. It's good to have another team that can contend while playing good soccer.
I agree on that one! 😀
Nutmeg and Centerback,
Agree 100% on the Wheaton goalkeeping being suspect. Their keeper last season was a senior and it looks like they have two bigger heavyweights lurking in the wings - that might be an area where they actually improve.
I too hope Tufts can have a good season. It's sustained success over time that earns respect for a program. One-hit-wonders can happen anytime (kinda like Rutgers-Camden) - hope that is not the case for Tufts. The Tufts-Gordon game with be a good measuring stick.
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on February 08, 2015, 07:49:09 PM
Nutmeg and Centerback,
Agree 100% on the Wheaton goalkeeping being suspect. Their keeper last season was a senior and it looks like they have two bigger heavyweights lurking in the wings - that might be an area where they actually improve.
I too hope Tufts can have a good season. It's sustained success over time that earns respect for a program. One-hit-wonders can happen anytime (kinda like Rutgers-Camden) - hope that is not the case for Tufts. The Tufts-Gordon game with be a good measuring stick.
Agreed...but the NESCAC presents tough challenges....teams often beat up on each other. You never know what team will come out....
It wouldn't shock me if Messiah failed to win the Commonwealth this year. Granted, they would still get an at large, but I could see it happening. IMO, Wheaton is the preseason #1 with Hollingsworth as the odds on favorite for NSCAA and D3soccer POY.
Teams that could fall into this "Rutgers-Camden" status would be: F&M and Muhlenberg- two teams on the up and up playing some really tough out of conference games and recent tournament success. However, it's not really fair to call Rutgers-Camden a one hit wonder. It's wayyyy to small of a sample size to justify that. They have been on the map the last 5-6 years and played an extremely rough schedule in 2014 after losing 7 starters. Had it been on the soft side like Salisbury or Newark (they would have had the chance to make a run). The program is more than capable of rebuilding and making it back to the NCAA tournament for 2015... The South Atlantic region should be wide open with CNU losing some quality players.
Teams that actually fall into one hit wonder would be Whitworth and Coast Guard. Sure, Whitworth has had respectable seasons over the years, but not enough exposure or NCAA appearances.
Probably should have started another thread for schedules, but Rutgers-Camden is posted on their website:
Notable games aside from NJAC:
Sea Gull Invitational
Sat. 9/5/2015 St. Mary's College of Maryland Neutral
Sun. 9/6/2015 Salisbury University Away
Cialella Soccer Classic
Sun. 9/13/2015 Christopher Newport University Home
Wed. 9/23/2015 Misericordia University Away
Wed. 10/7/2015 Haverford College Away
Wed. 10/21/2015 Swarthmore College Away
My guess is Messiah, Loras, Wheaton, Trinity, SUNY Oneonta, and NESCAC schools will start posting them in mid March?
I don't believe NESCAC posts their schedules until August.
Homer pick, but St. Lawrence will be very strong next year. We only lose one impact player, and our right back and left winger are easily replaceable. In fact, the freshman backup to our starting left winger actually had an immensely better season. We also get our main striker back, Morgan Smith, who missed most of last year to injury. Our back line will be incredibly strong, and our midfield is very deep. I can't see any other team in the Liberty League aside from RPI making much noise.
Quote from: stlawus on February 13, 2015, 04:47:38 PM
Homer pick, but St. Lawrence will be very strong next year. We only lose one impact player, and our right back and left winger are easily replaceable. In fact, the freshman backup to our starting left winger actually had an immensely better season. We also get our main striker back, Morgan Smith, who missed most of last year to injury. Our back line will be incredibly strong, and our midfield is very deep. I can't see any other team in the Liberty League aside from RPI making much noise.
Stlawus - maybe St. Lawrence is a homer pick for you, but none-the-less a very legit pick. That program has been very strong for a very long time. Probably a shoe-in to win the Liberty League and make a run in the national tourney. Good luck!!!
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on February 16, 2015, 12:01:55 AM
Quote from: stlawus on February 13, 2015, 04:47:38 PM
Homer pick, but St. Lawrence will be very strong next year. We only lose one impact player, and our right back and left winger are easily replaceable. In fact, the freshman backup to our starting left winger actually had an immensely better season. We also get our main striker back, Morgan Smith, who missed most of last year to injury. Our back line will be incredibly strong, and our midfield is very deep. I can't see any other team in the Liberty League aside from RPI making much noise.
Stlawus - maybe St. Lawrence is a homer pick for you, but none-the-less a very legit pick. That program has been very strong for a very long time. Probably a shoe-in to win the Liberty League and make a run in the national tourney. Good luck!!!
I also SLU being strong and their test will come in the tourney.....
Any announcements yet on 2015 schedules or incoming freshmen?
Wheaton 2015 Schedule:
DATE OPPONENT LOCATION TIME/RESULT DETAILS
Bob Baptista Invitational
9/4/2015 Bethel University Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
9/5/2015 Washington University in St. Louis Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
9/8/2015 Loras College Dubuque, Iowa 7:00 PM Details
9/11/2015 Oglethorpe University Rome, Ga. TBA Details
9/12/2015 Berry College (Ga.) Rome, Ga. TBA Details
9/16/2015 MacMurray College Jacksonville, Ill. 4:00 PM Details
9/19/2015 Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
9/23/2015 Benedictine University Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
9/25/2015 University of Chicago Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
9/29/2015 Greenville College Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
10/3/2015 * Elmhurst College Elmhurst, Ill. 7:00 PM Details
10/7/2015 University of Wisconsin-Oshkosh Oshkosh, Wis. 7:00 PM Details
10/9/2015 * Millikin University Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
10/14/2015 * Carthage College Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
10/17/2015 * Illinois Wesleyan University Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 3:30 PM Details
10/24/2015 * North Central College Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
10/28/2015 * Augustana College (IL) Rock Island, Ill. 7:00 PM Details
10/31/2015 * North Park University Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
NCAA Soccer Game Attendance Stats for 2014 (Top 50 Programs)
Congratulations to Messiah, Ohio Wesleyan, and Wheaton(IL) for developing fan bases that rival DI programs.
Rank Div Institution Conference Avg Attendance
1 I UC Santa Barbara Big West 3,844
2 I Louisville Atlantic Coast 3,572
3 I UConn AAC 3,541
4 I Maryland Big Ten 2,688
5 I South Carolina Conference USA 2,602
6 I Cal Poly Big West 2,397
7 I Indiana Big Ten 2,379
8 I New Mexico Conference USA 2,276
9 I Virginia Atlantic Coast 2,182
10 I Creighton Big East 2,170
11 I Clemson Atlantic Coast 1,895
12 I North Carolina Atlantic Coast 1,833
13 I Akron Mid-American 1,825
14 I Utah Valley Western Athletic 1,750
15 III Messiah Commonwealth 1,730
16 I Penn St. Big Ten 1,706
17 I UCLA Pac-12 1,615
18 I Syracuse Atlantic Coast 1,424
19 I Wake Forest Atlantic Coast 1,402
20 I SIUE Missouri Valley 1,259
21 I Tulsa AAC 1,254
22 I Notre Dame Atlantic Coast 1,242
23 I Washington Pac-12 1,220
24 I Charlotte Conference USA 1,199
25 I Kentucky Conference USA 1,167
26 I Saint Louis Atlantic 10 1,160
27 I Portland West Coast 1,148
28 I Michigan Big Ten 1,134
29 I Dayton Atlantic 10 1,127
30 I Providence Big East 1,114
31 I Stanford Pac-12 1,100
32 I Dartmouth Ivy 1,095
33 I UNCW Colonial 1,064
34 I UMBC America East 1,059
35 I St. John's (NY) Big East 1,042
36 I Michigan St. Big Ten 1,039
37 I Georgetown Big East 1,031
38 I San Diego West Coast 1,028
39 I Hartford America East 1,018
40 I UAB Conference USA 920
41 III Ohio Wesleyan North Coast 888
42 III Wheaton (IL) CCIW 876
43 I Old Dominion Conference USA 860
44 I Duke Atlantic Coast 856
45 I North Carolina St. Atlantic Coast 847
46 I High Point Big South 844
47 I Binghamton America East 843
48 I Furman Southern 843
49 I Virginia Tech Atlantic Coast 839
50 I Oakland Horizon 830
Quote from: pad3fan on February 22, 2015, 03:20:30 AM
Wheaton 2015 Schedule:
DATE OPPONENT LOCATION TIME/RESULT DETAILS
Bob Baptista Invitational
9/4/2015 Bethel University Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
9/5/2015 Washington University in St. Louis Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
9/8/2015 Loras College Dubuque, Iowa 7:00 PM Details
9/11/2015 Oglethorpe University Rome, Ga. TBA Details
9/12/2015 Berry College (Ga.) Rome, Ga. TBA Details
9/16/2015 MacMurray College Jacksonville, Ill. 4:00 PM Details
9/19/2015 Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
9/23/2015 Benedictine University Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
9/25/2015 University of Chicago Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
9/29/2015 Greenville College Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
10/3/2015 * Elmhurst College Elmhurst, Ill. 7:00 PM Details
10/7/2015 University of Wisconsin-Oshkosh Oshkosh, Wis. 7:00 PM Details
10/9/2015 * Millikin University Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
10/14/2015 * Carthage College Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
10/17/2015 * Illinois Wesleyan University Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 3:30 PM Details
10/24/2015 * North Central College Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
10/28/2015 * Augustana College (IL) Rock Island, Ill. 7:00 PM Details
10/31/2015 * North Park University Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
Not sure how strong this schedule is. It does include two teams ranked in the Top 25 at the end of last season...
Loras (11)
Chicago (18)
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on February 16, 2015, 12:01:55 AM
Quote from: stlawus on February 13, 2015, 04:47:38 PM
Homer pick, but St. Lawrence will be very strong next year. We only lose one impact player, and our right back and left winger are easily replaceable. In fact, the freshman backup to our starting left winger actually had an immensely better season. We also get our main striker back, Morgan Smith, who missed most of last year to injury. Our back line will be incredibly strong, and our midfield is very deep. I can't see any other team in the Liberty League aside from RPI making much noise.
Stlawus - maybe St. Lawrence is a homer pick for you, but none-the-less a very legit pick. That program has been very strong for a very long time. Probably a shoe-in to win the Liberty League and make a run in the national tourney. Good luck!!!
As always, Williams or Amherst will likely be an opponent in the early rounds. It seems like every year we say "Alright, this is the year we exercise the demons" but always seem to come up short. We were by far the better team against Amherst last year, and we're not any weaker so I can definitely see us having the best chance this coming season.
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on February 22, 2015, 10:39:49 AM
Quote from: pad3fan on February 22, 2015, 03:20:30 AM
Wheaton 2015 Schedule:
DATE OPPONENT LOCATION TIME/RESULT DETAILS
Bob Baptista Invitational
9/4/2015 Bethel University Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
9/5/2015 Washington University in St. Louis Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
9/8/2015 Loras College Dubuque, Iowa 7:00 PM Details
9/11/2015 Oglethorpe University Rome, Ga. TBA Details
9/12/2015 Berry College (Ga.) Rome, Ga. TBA Details
9/16/2015 MacMurray College Jacksonville, Ill. 4:00 PM Details
9/19/2015 Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
9/23/2015 Benedictine University Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
9/25/2015 University of Chicago Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
9/29/2015 Greenville College Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
10/3/2015 * Elmhurst College Elmhurst, Ill. 7:00 PM Details
10/7/2015 University of Wisconsin-Oshkosh Oshkosh, Wis. 7:00 PM Details
10/9/2015 * Millikin University Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
10/14/2015 * Carthage College Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
10/17/2015 * Illinois Wesleyan University Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 3:30 PM Details
10/24/2015 * North Central College Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
10/28/2015 * Augustana College (IL) Rock Island, Ill. 7:00 PM Details
10/31/2015 * North Park University Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
Not sure how strong this schedule is. It does include two teams ranked in the Top 25 at the end of last season...
Loras (11)
Chicago (18)
I would say that is an average to slightly above average schedule...
Quote from: Nutmeg on February 22, 2015, 11:07:30 AM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on February 22, 2015, 10:39:49 AM
Quote from: pad3fan on February 22, 2015, 03:20:30 AM
Wheaton 2015 Schedule:
DATE OPPONENT LOCATION TIME/RESULT DETAILS
Bob Baptista Invitational
9/4/2015 Bethel University Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
9/5/2015 Washington University in St. Louis Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
9/8/2015 Loras College Dubuque, Iowa 7:00 PM Details
9/11/2015 Oglethorpe University Rome, Ga. TBA Details
9/12/2015 Berry College (Ga.) Rome, Ga. TBA Details
9/16/2015 MacMurray College Jacksonville, Ill. 4:00 PM Details
9/19/2015 Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
9/23/2015 Benedictine University Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
9/25/2015 University of Chicago Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
9/29/2015 Greenville College Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
10/3/2015 * Elmhurst College Elmhurst, Ill. 7:00 PM Details
10/7/2015 University of Wisconsin-Oshkosh Oshkosh, Wis. 7:00 PM Details
10/9/2015 * Millikin University Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
10/14/2015 * Carthage College Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
10/17/2015 * Illinois Wesleyan University Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 3:30 PM Details
10/24/2015 * North Central College Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
10/28/2015 * Augustana College (IL) Rock Island, Ill. 7:00 PM Details
10/31/2015 * North Park University Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
Not sure how strong this schedule is. It does include two teams ranked in the Top 25 at the end of last season...
Loras (11)
Chicago (18)
I would say that is an average to slightly above average schedule...
Nutmeg, what is the basis of your assessment? Are you familiar with most of those schools?
In addition to Loras and Chicago, Berry, Rose Hulman, and North Park were all NCAA tourney teams. That's 5 NCAA teams, and UW-O probably should have been the 6th. That's not counting Wash U from the UAA, and perennially solid Carthage, Elmhurst (another bubble team that just missed), and North Central.
Quote from: NCAC New England on February 22, 2015, 03:33:49 PM
Quote from: Nutmeg on February 22, 2015, 11:07:30 AM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on February 22, 2015, 10:39:49 AM
Quote from: pad3fan on February 22, 2015, 03:20:30 AM
Wheaton 2015 Schedule:
DATE OPPONENT LOCATION TIME/RESULT DETAILS
Bob Baptista Invitational
9/4/2015 Bethel University Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
9/5/2015 Washington University in St. Louis Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
9/8/2015 Loras College Dubuque, Iowa 7:00 PM Details
9/11/2015 Oglethorpe University Rome, Ga. TBA Details
9/12/2015 Berry College (Ga.) Rome, Ga. TBA Details
9/16/2015 MacMurray College Jacksonville, Ill. 4:00 PM Details
9/19/2015 Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
9/23/2015 Benedictine University Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
9/25/2015 University of Chicago Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
9/29/2015 Greenville College Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
10/3/2015 * Elmhurst College Elmhurst, Ill. 7:00 PM Details
10/7/2015 University of Wisconsin-Oshkosh Oshkosh, Wis. 7:00 PM Details
10/9/2015 * Millikin University Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
10/14/2015 * Carthage College Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
10/17/2015 * Illinois Wesleyan University Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 3:30 PM Details
10/24/2015 * North Central College Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
10/28/2015 * Augustana College (IL) Rock Island, Ill. 7:00 PM Details
10/31/2015 * North Park University Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
Not sure how strong this schedule is. It does include two teams ranked in the Top 25 at the end of last season...
Loras (11)
Chicago (18)
I would say that is an average to slightly above average schedule...
Nutmeg, what is the basis of your assessment? Are you familiar with most of those schools?
In addition to Loras and Chicago, Berry, Rose Hulman, and North Park were all NCAA tourney teams. That's 5 NCAA teams, and UW-O probably should have been the 6th. That's not counting Wash U from the UAA, and perennially solid Carthage, Elmhurst (another bubble team that just missed), and North Central.
Ok, above average. But I must admit, there are some games against colleges I never heard of for soccer
I am a bit surprised that there are questions about the SOS for Wheaton. Traditionally, they play one of the most difficult schedules in the nation. Those first 5 games with Wash U on the second day of a tournament, then Loras away and 2 days later a flight to GA for Berry away, (after a game the day before with Olgethorpe and all in 8 days) looks like it is a tough start. This is with a new head coach. There may games that will be easier, mixed in throughout the season, but it is certainly more than an "average" schedule.
Quote from: pad3fan on February 22, 2015, 06:33:47 PM
I am a bit surprised that there are questions about the SOS for Wheaton. Traditionally, they play one of the most difficult schedules in the nation. Those first 5 games with Wash U on the second day of a tournament, then Loras away and 2 days later a flight to GA for Berry away, (after a game the day before with Olgethorpe and all in 8 days) looks like it is a tough start. This is with a new head coach. There may games that will be easier, mixed in throughout the season, but it is certainly more than an "average" schedule.
Maybe someone can list the SOS figures four the top 25 teams from last year so we can see. I don't know where to find them....maybe even the figures before and after the tournament started last year....
Quote from: Nutmeg on February 22, 2015, 07:45:33 PM
Quote from: pad3fan on February 22, 2015, 06:33:47 PM
I am a bit surprised that there are questions about the SOS for Wheaton. Traditionally, they play one of the most difficult schedules in the nation. Those first 5 games with Wash U on the second day of a tournament, then Loras away and 2 days later a flight to GA for Berry away, (after a game the day before with Olgethorpe and all in 8 days) looks like it is a tough start. This is with a new head coach. There may games that will be easier, mixed in throughout the season, but it is certainly more than an "average" schedule.
Maybe someone can list the SOS figures four the top 25 teams from last year so we can see. I don't know where to find them....maybe even the figures before and after the tournament started last year....
Here are the Final 2014 D3 Massey Ratings:
http://www.masseyratings.com/rate.php?s=csoc2014&sub=11620
Thanks....those include the tournament games... It would be more helpful to see them right before the tourney started....
Below are the NCAA "Toughest Schedule" stats for the 2014 season...
NCAA Toughest Schedule Report thru games 12/07/2014
Rank Institution Conference Cumulative Opposition
Wins Losses Ties Pct
1 Chicago UAA 246 101 37 0.689
2 Tufts NESCAC 231 101 48 0.671
2 Wheaton (IL) CCIW 284 128 44 0.671
4 Brandeis UAA 262 118 49 0.668
5 Rochester (NY) UAA 212 98 36 0.665
6 Trinity (TX) SCAC 168 78 29 0.664
7 Messiah Commonwealth 227 123 41 0.633
8 Amherst NESCAC 177 97 39 0.628
9 North Park CCIW 198 112 25 0.628
10 Washington-St. Louis UAA 194 111 23 0.627
11 Dickinson Centennial 184 102 43 0.625
12 North Central (IL) CCIW 201 117 25 0.622
13 UC Santa Cruz Independent 128 74 19 0.622
13 Southwestern (TX) SCAC 126 72 23 0.622
15 Loras IIAC 214 125 31 0.62
16 Centre SAA 169 99 24 0.62
17 Carthage CCIW 180 106 31 0.617
18 Babson NEWMAC 209 122 43 0.616
19 Chris. Newport CAC 245 146 35 0.616
20 York (PA) CAC 194 116 32 0.614
21 SUNY Oneonta SUNYAC 226 134 46 0.613
22 Rutgers-Camden NJAC 223 133 45 0.612
23 Wheaton (MA) NEWMAC 227 137 41 0.611
24 Calvin Michigan Intercol. 129 79 19 0.61
25 Bowdoin NESCAC 160 95 42 0.609
Does anyone have them as of November 15?
Nutmeg, you obviously are intent on making a point, as you continue to request the SOS rankings. What is it?
Quote from: Nutmeg on February 22, 2015, 11:07:30 AM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on February 22, 2015, 10:39:49 AM
Quote from: pad3fan on February 22, 2015, 03:20:30 AM
Wheaton 2015 Schedule:
DATE OPPONENT LOCATION TIME/RESULT DETAILS
Bob Baptista Invitational
9/4/2015 Bethel University Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
9/5/2015 Washington University in St. Louis Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
9/8/2015 Loras College Dubuque, Iowa 7:00 PM Details
9/11/2015 Oglethorpe University Rome, Ga. TBA Details
9/12/2015 Berry College (Ga.) Rome, Ga. TBA Details
9/16/2015 MacMurray College Jacksonville, Ill. 4:00 PM Details
9/19/2015 Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
9/23/2015 Benedictine University Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
9/25/2015 University of Chicago Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
9/29/2015 Greenville College Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
10/3/2015 * Elmhurst College Elmhurst, Ill. 7:00 PM Details
10/7/2015 University of Wisconsin-Oshkosh Oshkosh, Wis. 7:00 PM Details
10/9/2015 * Millikin University Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
10/14/2015 * Carthage College Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
10/17/2015 * Illinois Wesleyan University Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 3:30 PM Details
10/24/2015 * North Central College Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
10/28/2015 * Augustana College (IL) Rock Island, Ill. 7:00 PM Details
10/31/2015 * North Park University Wheaton, Ill. - Joe Bean Stadium 7:00 PM Details
Not sure how strong this schedule is. It does include two teams ranked in the Top 25 at the end of last season...
Loras (11)
Chicago (18)
I would say that is an average to slightly above average schedule...
Above average? This one is pretty solid, Nutmeg.
In regards to out of conference games: @ Loras, traveling to Georgia for Ogelthorpe and Berry, @ UWO. Even with U of Chicago at home is no "gimme". Throw in conference foes Elmhurst (2x) and North Park... it could/should be on the top 10-15 schedules next year.
BF,
I posted the SOS in a different forum on Oct 30th (using the NCAA Regional Rankings). This doesn't factor in the secret rankings released that would include conference finals (assuming some teams would jump/bump a few slots).
Chicago 646
Brandeis 638
North Central (Ill.) 630
Rochester 618
Babson 612
Haverford 611
Emory 605
Wheaton (Ill.) 603
Case Western 603
York (Pa.) 602
Swarthmore 602
Carthage 599
Wheaton (Mass.) 598
Carnegie Mellon 598
William Paterson 595
Messiah 594
Loras 593
Amherst 592
Christopher Newport 591
Centre 590
Washington U. (Stl) 590
Tufts 589
Dickinson 588
Illinois Wesleyan 587
Coast Guard 585
Williams 585
Hardin-Simmons 584
Rutgers-Camden 584
North Park 583
Johns Hopkins 582
RPI 579
UCSC 576
St. Thomas 575
Oglethorpe 574
Berry 572
Brockport State 572
TCNJ 570
Clark 570
Franklin and Marshall 570
Kenyon 569
UW-Whitewater 568
Muhlenberg 568
Hiram 568
Vassar 568
Mary Washington 566
Bates 566
Central 565
UW-Platteville 565
MIT 565
Ohio Wesleyan 565
St. John's 564
Salve Regina 563
Catholic 563
St. Lawrence 563
Rowan 562
Connecticut College 562
St. Olaf 561
Allegheny 561
Calvin 561
Plattsburgh State 560
Western New England 559
DePauw 559
Millikin 559
Augsburg 558
UW-Oshkosh 558
Hamilton 557
Ursinus 557
Skidmore 557
Carleton 556
Salisbury 556
John Carroll 556
Ithaca 556
Manhattanville 555
Roger Williams 553
Trinity 552
Covenant 552
Montclair State 552
Wilmington (OH) 552
Hope 552
Springfield 551
Elmhurst 551
Oberlin 549
Wartburg 548
Washington College 548
Cortland State 548
Rochester Tech 548
Bowdoin 547
Wentworth 547
Wesleyan 547
Olivet 547
Macalester 546
Ohio Northern 546
Buffalo State 546
Fredonia State 546
Dubuque 545
Eastern Connecticut 545
Capital 545
Texas-Tyler 544
Rutgers-Newark 544
Middlebury 544
McDaniel 544
Gordon 543
Otterbein 542
Concordia (Wis.) 542
Oswego State 542
Baldwin-Wallace 541
Redlands 540
Neumann 540
Oneonta State 540
Claremont MS 539
Southwestern (TX) 539
UW-Superior 539
Kean 539
Dominican 537
Gustavus Adolphus 536
Hobart 535
Bridgewater State 534
Averett 533
Colby 532
Widener 532
Marymount 531
Kalamazoo 531
Merchant Marine 530
Potsdam State 530
Lebanon Valley 529
Roanoke 528
Geneseo State 528
Texas-Dallas 526
Clarkson 526
Greensboro 525
St. Mary's (Md.) 525
WPI 525
Denison 525
St. John Fisher 525
Randolph-Macon 524
Keene State 524
Drew 524
FDU-Florham 524
SUNY-Canton 524
Birmingham Southern 523
Bridgewater (Va.) 523
Geneva 522
Albion 522
LaGrange 521
Hood 521
Stevens 521
Whitworth 520
Gettysburg 520
Elmira 520
Chapman 519
Puget Sound 519
Concordia-Moorhead 519
Albright 519
Ramapo 518
Richard Stockton 518
Alvernia 517
Lynchburg 516
Millsaps 516
New England College 516
Penn State-Abington 516
Pomona-Pitzer 515
Plymouth State 515
New Paltz State 515
Cal Lutheran 514
LaVerne 514
Occidental 514
Hanover 514
Augustana 514
Marian 514
Caltech 513
George Fox 513
Wesley 513
Austin 512
Sewanee 512
Mary Hardin-Baylor 511
Pacific Lutheran 511
Endicott 511
Trinity (Conn.) 511
Williamette 510
Susquehanna 510
Wash and Jeff 510
Alma 510
Benedictine 510
Colorado College 509
New Jersey City 509
Western Connecticut 509
Marietta 509
Huntingdon 508
Mass-Boston 508
Stevenson 508
Schreiner 507
Southern Virginia 507
Lasell 507
Salem State 506
Scranton 506
Adrian 505
Dallas 504
Whittier 504
Maryville (Tenn.) 504
Arcadia 504
Eastern 504
Greenville 504
Simpson 503
Randolph 503
Emerson 503
Nichols 503
Milwaukee Engineering 503
Virginia Wesleyan 502
Misericordia 502
Wittenberg 502
Bethel 501
Johnson and Wales 500
U of New England 500
Westminster (Mo.) 499
Texas Lutheran 498
Framingham State 498
Houghton 498
Goucher 497
Lycoming 497
Penn State-Harrisburg 496
Lake Forest 495
Hendrix 495
North Carolina Wesleyan 495
Howard Payne 493
Luther 493
Wilkes 493
Carroll 492
Saint Mary's (Minn.) 492
Husson 492
Massachusetts Maritime 492
Farmingdale State 492
Union 491
Utica 491
Pacific (OR) 490
Coe 490
Rose-Hulman 490
Ozarks (AR) 489
Rivier 489
St. Joseph's (Maine) 489
DeSales 489
Wabash 489
Hamline 488
Frostburg St 488
Penn State-Behrend 488
Wooster 488
Mount St. Mary 488
St. Joseph's (L.I.) 488
Guilford 487
Lyndon State 487
Thomas More 487
Lawrence 486
Curry 486
Grove City 486
Brooklyn 486
Grinnell 485
Castleton State 485
La Roche 485
Condordia-Chicago 485
St. Scholastica 484
Emmanuel 484
Webster 484
New York University 484
St. Norbert 483
Mass-Dartmouth 483
Elizabethtown 483
Heidelberg 483
Trine 483
SUNY-Maritime 482
Fitchburg State 481
Lakeland 480
Nazareth 480
Mount Ida 479
Westfield State 479
Medaille 479
Cententary (LA) 478
Moravian 478
Westminster (Pa.) 478
Gwynedd-Mercy 477
Franklin 477
Eastern Mennonite 476
Rhodes 476
Hilbert 476
Southern Maine 475
Juniata 475
Elms 474
Beloit 473
Whitman 473
Monmouth 473
Washington and Lee 473
Maine Maritime 473
Penn State-Altoona 473
Eastern Nazarene 472
King's 472
Pitt-Bradford 471
Spalding 471
LeTourneau 470
Worcester State 470
Cazenovia 470
Penn College 470
Transylvania 470
Edgewood 470
Alfred 470
Linfield 469
Albertus Magnus 469
Rhode Island College 469
SUNYIT 468
Finlandia 467
Shenandoah 467
NW-St.Paul 466
William Peace 466
Aurora 466
SUNY-Purchase 466
Bethany Lutheran 463
D'Youville 462
Mount St. Joseph 462
Bard 462
Principia 460
Wisconsin Lutheran 460
Cabrini 459
East Tex. Baptist 458
Newbury 458
Methodist 457
Suffolk 457
Concordia (TX) 456
Anna Maria 456
Defiance 456
Hampden-Sydney 455
Lancaster Bible 455
Waynesburg 455
Earlham 453
St. Vincent 453
Marywood 452
Mount St. Vincent 452
Thomas 451
Mount Union 451
Nebraska Wesleyan 450
Bluffton 450
Pitt-Greensburg 450
Alfred State 449
Louisiana Col. 447
Muskingum 447
Johnson State 446
Maine-Farmington 446
Mitchell 446
Norwich 446
Rosemont 446
Green Mountain 445
Thiel 445
Becker 444
Keuka 444
John Jay 444
Rockford 443
CCNY 443
Ferrum 442
Regis (Mass.) 441
Centenary (N.J.) 441
Anderson 441
York (N.Y.) 441
Cairn 440
Berea 439
Illinois Colllege 438
Staten Island 438
Wells 437
Bethany (WV) 437
Emory and Henry 436
Buena Vista 435
Morrisville St 432
Martin Luther 431
Penn State-Berks 431
Colby-Sawyer 430
Delaware Valley 430
Piedmont 429
Mount Aloysius 429
SUNY-Old Westbury 429
Knox 428
Minnesota-Morris 428
Baruch 428
Fontbonne 427
Yeshiva 427
Immaculata 426
North Central (Minn.) 425
Hunter 425
Daniel Webster 415
Franciscan (Ohio) 415
Crown 413
Keystone 412
Southern Vermont 408
Bryn Athyn 408
Iowa Wesleyan 408
Maranatha Baptist 408
Sarah Lawrence 408
Massachusetts College 405
Lehman 404
Baptist Bible 403
Cobleskill St 403
Lesley 402
Wheelock 398
Manchester 393
Medgar Evers 389
Northland 381
Blackburn 381
MacMurray 381
Ripon 378
Cornell 365
Eureka 342
Maine-Presque Isle 338
Valley Forge Christian 305
Links to the data sheets showing SOS as of 11/3/14 can be found here:
http://www.d3soccer.com/rankings/2014/Men/regional-rankings-3
Okay, so the rankings I pulled were from the data sheets generated 10/27/14... ughh
It's not bad if you sort them out by region, but to mesh them together on the national scale is a pain in the arse.
I don't think they changed too dramatically, but if Nutmeg or Flounder wants that data, it is there at the link.
Quote from: Brother Flounder on February 23, 2015, 10:08:30 AM
I am just curious what the SOS's were before the tournament started as playing the tournament games obviously increases the SOS. Just want to see how it played out. In all honesty, I am not trying to make any point. I am just trying to see regular season final SOS's.....
Are BF and Nutmeg one in the same? Someone asked Nutmeg what his real point is and now BF responds out of nowhere with the above. What point are you all trying to make? If it is that NESCAC schools have by far the toughest schedules in the country then rest of us will just concede that and move on.
Quote from: NCAC New England on February 23, 2015, 01:12:33 PM
Quote from: Brother Flounder on February 23, 2015, 10:08:30 AM
I am just curious what the SOS's were before the tournament started as playing the tournament games obviously increases the SOS. Just want to see how it played out. In all honesty, I am not trying to make any point. I am just trying to see regular season final SOS's.....
Are BF and Nutmeg one in the same? Someone asked Nutmeg what his real point is and now BF responds out of nowhere with the above. What point are you all trying to make? If it is that NESCAC schools have by far the toughest schedules in the country then rest of us will just concede that and move on.
NCAC....ding, ding, ding...a thread comes up about next years schedules and Nutmeg/BF whomever.... seem to want to run with some other agenda.......
My post was removed... NCAC, I would also like to see it. I am not trying to prove anything. Why do you always insinuate matters? If I wanted to say the NESCAC had the hardest schedules, I would have done so. I don't need to beat around the bush. Look, you often attack many and gave a bunch of NESCAC posters multiple negative scores, and several NESCAC posters picked up on that without reporting you. You were on a mission. So, please withhold from your negative comments. It really doesn't do anyone any good.
BF, your post was removed? For what reason? Was it profane?
As far as reporting me, did you bother to notice the number of negative points I have racked up? The feature is there. If someone doesn't like a post he or she can give someone negative or positive points. I went days and days without posting and was getting negative posts daily. Are you going to intercede on my behalf? Post something that has some substance and that isn't just cheerleading or that isn't completely transparent.
Are you and Nutmeg one in the same or not?
Quote from: NCAC New England on February 23, 2015, 03:10:20 PM
BF, your post was removed? For what reason? Was it profane?
As far as reporting me, did you bother to notice the number of negative points I have racked up? The feature is there. If someone doesn't like a post he or she can give someone negative or positive points. I went days and days without posting and was getting negative posts daily. Are you going to intercede on my behalf? Post something that has some substance and that isn't just cheerleading or that isn't completely transparent.
Are you and Nutmeg one in the same or not?
First, I didn't know you were the Judge or the great prosecutor, second, I don't have to answer you but, just to satisfy yourself, I am not Nutmeg, third, you probably deserved the comments for the actions you took against NESCAC posters just out of spite.....
First, thanks for the link, Off The Pitch. Second, while I am a touch late to the party, I am my own man...sorry to disappoint. BF probably has more money than me so maybe I should be him....haha.. Third, it helps to look at these regionally.....
New topic: What programs do we know that have good youtube channels showing goals, highlight videos, etc.? I know it doesn't get any better than Messiah's because they upload literally every goal scored and have every goal scored since I think the 2008 or 2009 season on youtube which is pretty darn cool.
There have to be more though. I never hear or see much coming from the northeast. Do any NESCAC teams have them? With all their success recently (last 6 years), Amherst should definitely have a good one. Williams should with their trips to the Final 4...I think these channels are really good as recruiting tools.
Great question! I follow quite a few D3 soccer teams and I haven't seen any online video presence like Messiah's. But there has to be some out there.
Certainly wish there was more...we are too often relegated to a fans poor shakey video version on YouTube. Yes, I think it would also help in recruiting....
Gordon College has posted their 2015 schedule...
http://athletics.gordon.edu/schedule.aspx?schedule=253&path=msoc (http://athletics.gordon.edu/schedule.aspx?schedule=253&path=msoc)
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on February 25, 2015, 10:59:23 PM
Gordon College has posted their 2015 schedule...
http://athletics.gordon.edu/schedule.aspx?schedule=253&path=msoc (http://athletics.gordon.edu/schedule.aspx?schedule=253&path=msoc)
Probably right where it needs to be as far as SOS. No terrible teams, 6-7 that have been recent NCAA tournament participants. One quality nescac, one quality national power. It's not the meat grinder that some teams play, but gives them the best chance of getting in AND being prepared for the tourney.
Quote from: 4231CenterBack on February 26, 2015, 10:56:23 AM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on February 25, 2015, 10:59:23 PM
Gordon College has posted their 2015 schedule...
http://athletics.gordon.edu/schedule.aspx?schedule=253&path=msoc (http://athletics.gordon.edu/schedule.aspx?schedule=253&path=msoc)
Probably right where it needs to be as far as SOS. No terrible teams, 6-7 that have been recent NCAA tournament participants. One quality nescac, one quality national power. It's not the meat grinder that some teams play, but gives them the best chance of getting in AND being prepared for the tourney.
CenterBack - I agree with your analysis. This is a step in the right direction for Gordon as far as SOS. And also agree that this schedule gives them a very fair chance of making the big dance. The Tuft's game will be a good measuring stick for them.
Lycoming College has posted their 2015 schedule.
http://athletics.lycoming.edu/schedule.aspx?path=msoc (http://athletics.lycoming.edu/schedule.aspx?path=msoc)
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on February 26, 2015, 08:01:30 PM
Quote from: 4231CenterBack on February 26, 2015, 10:56:23 AM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on February 25, 2015, 10:59:23 PM
Gordon College has posted their 2015 schedule...
http://athletics.gordon.edu/schedule.aspx?schedule=253&path=msoc (http://athletics.gordon.edu/schedule.aspx?schedule=253&path=msoc)
Probably right where it needs to be as far as SOS. No terrible teams, 6-7 that have been recent NCAA tournament participants. One quality nescac, one quality national power. It's not the meat grinder that some teams play, but gives them the best chance of getting in AND being prepared for the tourney.
CenterBack - I agree with your analysis. This is a step in the right direction for Gordon as far as SOS. And also agree that this schedule gives them a very fair chance of making the big dance. The Tuft's game will be a good measuring stick for them.
Yep, it is not a meat grinder and is getting better... I would like to see it get s bit stronger as Gordon develops...
Nutmeg - good point - it would be good to see Gordon's SOS progress as the program continues to develop. I'm going to guess that will happen. That's what will help them reach the status I'm sure they are working hard to achieve.
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on February 26, 2015, 10:43:11 PM
Nutmeg - good point - it would be good to see Gordon's SOS progress as the program continues to develop. I'm going to guess that will happen. That's what will help them reach the status I'm sure they are working hard to achieve.
I think it raises an interesting question about scheduling. How good should your schedule be? Should you take all comers? Should you try to have the best schedule possible playing as many powerhouses as you can?
If the end goal is getting into the tournament and making a deep run. Then I think you have to be careful about how aggressive you are with your schedule. Too many quality losses are still losses and will hurt you.
Based on their dominance I think you have to use Messiah as a model. They play in a relatively weak conference. But they schedule very good nonconference matches to get ready for the tournament. Barring something crazy, like 2013, they get their automatic bid and are in regardless.
The Nescac beats the hell out of each other each year. And that seems to hurt the 4th-6th teams ability to get into the tourney. They come out of the Nescac battle hardened, but often with injuries and lots of losses. With hindsight being what it is, I think Tufts caught a break by losing in the first round of the tournament. They avoided playing two very difficult physical matches. They were fresher, uninjured and ready to make their fantastic run.
It may not be fair, but I think Gordon is very well situated to be a perennial tournament team. The automatic bid is powerful.
Quote from: 4231CenterBack on February 27, 2015, 08:57:29 AM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on February 26, 2015, 10:43:11 PM
Nutmeg - good point - it would be good to see Gordon's SOS progress as the program continues to develop. I'm going to guess that will happen. That's what will help them reach the status I'm sure they are working hard to achieve.
I think it raises an interesting question about scheduling. How good should your schedule be? Should you take all comers? Should you try to have the best schedule possible playing as many powerhouses as you can?
If the end goal is getting into the tournament and making a deep run. Then I think you have to be careful about how aggressive you are with your schedule. Too many quality losses are still losses and will hurt you.
Based on their dominance I think you have to use Messiah as a model. They play in a relatively weak conference. But they schedule very good nonconference matches to get ready for the tournament. Barring something crazy, like 2013, they get their automatic bid and are in regardless.
The Nescac beats the hell out of each other each year. And that seems to hurt the 4th-6th teams ability to get into the tourney. They come out of the Nescac battle hardened, but often with injuries and lots of losses. With hindsight being what it is, I think Tufts caught a break by losing in the first round of the tournament. They avoided playing two very difficult physical matches. They were fresher, uninjured and ready to make their fantastic run.
It may not be fair, but I think Gordon is very well situated to be a perennial tournament team. The automatic bid is powerful.
Now this is a good analysis.
Tufts did benefit by losing early in the NESCAC tourney. They also benefited from a good draw. Dickinson, Wheaton (MA), and Muhlenberg were all competitive opponents and definitely good wins, but that said all of those looked winnable for Tufts on paper. They got to stay local for the first 2 games and then faced the Mules who were a little short on offense. Given that they weren't a top seed coming in, an Elite 8 matchup with Messiah with a chance to go to the Final Four looked pretty good. They get the first minute goal off a poor clearance and the rest is history.
I'd quibble just a little with the "beat each other up" theme that is so popular with NESCAC. The 4-6 teams in
any conference are going to have around a .500 in-conference record or worse. At least a couple of NESCAC teams each year have managed to get through the conference gauntlet with stellar records, including Amherst going undefeated for a couple of years. And as a league they didn't exactly tear it up against non-conference foes last year. Williams lost to Babson and I believe either RPI or Skidmore. Midd lost to Castleton St. Wesleyan lost to a couple of non-conference teams. Conn Coll lost to ECSU. Amherst barely got by New England College in OT.
I do think the NESCAC will be fascinating to follow this upcoming season. Tufts has upset the applecart by breaking through and winning a national title, and Amherst, Midd, Williams, Wesleyan, Bowdoin, etc will all be very hungry, and we'll also see if teams like Colby can jump in and pose a more competitive threat.
As far as scheduling, I would agree that having more than 2-3 tough non-conference games is asking for trouble, especially since those games tend to be early when teams are still working out the kinks. Lycoming's schedule seems fairly daunting with York, Rochester, Oneonta, and of course Messiah.
Quote from: NCAC New England on February 27, 2015, 11:25:48 AM
Quote from: 4231CenterBack on February 27, 2015, 08:57:29 AM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on February 26, 2015, 10:43:11 PM
Nutmeg - good point - it would be good to see Gordon's SOS progress as the program continues to develop. I'm going to guess that will happen. That's what will help them reach the status I'm sure they are working hard to achieve.
I think it raises an interesting question about scheduling. How good should your schedule be? Should you take all comers? Should you try to have the best schedule possible playing as many powerhouses as you can?
If the end goal is getting into the tournament and making a deep run. Then I think you have to be careful about how aggressive you are with your schedule. Too many quality losses are still losses and will hurt you.
Based on their dominance I think you have to use Messiah as a model. They play in a relatively weak conference. But they schedule very good nonconference matches to get ready for the tournament. Barring something crazy, like 2013, they get their automatic bid and are in regardless.
The Nescac beats the hell out of each other each year. And that seems to hurt the 4th-6th teams ability to get into the tourney. They come out of the Nescac battle hardened, but often with injuries and lots of losses. With hindsight being what it is, I think Tufts caught a break by losing in the first round of the tournament. They avoided playing two very difficult physical matches. They were fresher, uninjured and ready to make their fantastic run.
It may not be fair, but I think Gordon is very well situated to be a perennial tournament team. The automatic bid is powerful.
Now this is a good analysis.
Tufts did benefit by losing early in the NESCAC tourney. They also benefited from a good draw. Dickinson, Wheaton (MA), and Muhlenberg were all competitive opponents and definitely good wins, but that said all of those looked winnable for Tufts on paper. They got to stay local for the first 2 games and then faced the Mules who were a little short on offense. Given that they weren't a top seed coming in, an Elite 8 matchup with Messiah with a chance to go to the Final Four looked pretty good. They get the first minute goal off a poor clearance and the rest is history.
I'd quibble just a little with the "beat each other up" theme that is so popular with NESCAC. The 4-6 teams in any conference are going to have around a .500 in-conference record or worse. At least a couple of NESCAC teams each year have managed to get through the conference gauntlet with stellar records, including Amherst going undefeated for a couple of years. And as a league they didn't exactly tear it up against non-conference foes last year. Williams lost to Babson and I believe either RPI or Skidmore. Midd lost to Castleton St. Wesleyan lost to a couple of non-conference teams. Conn Coll lost to ECSU. Amherst barely got by New England College in OT.
I do think the NESCAC will be fascinating to follow this upcoming season. Tufts has upset the applecart by breaking through and winning a national title, and Amherst, Midd, Williams, Wesleyan, Bowdoin, etc will all be very hungry, and we'll also see if teams like Colby can jump in and pose a more competitive threat.
As far as scheduling, I would agree that having more than 2-3 tough non-conference games is asking for trouble, especially since those games tend to be early when teams are still working out the kinks. Lycoming's schedule seems fairly daunting with York, Rochester, Oneonta, and of course Messiah.
Well, what do u think of Tufts upcoming schedule which likely includes Amherst, Williams, Middlebury, Bowdoin, et al. and non- conference games with Gordon and Brandeis? That sounds like a VERY tough schedule to me... They may get "beat up" and put themselves at jeopardy for an NCAA tourney bid.....
I would think: play one or two perennial giants, some mid table performers in the stronger conferences, and splash in the the likely winners or top teams of weaker conferences. Maybe even try to schedule vs teams that traditionally play a strong schedule to boost the OOWP factor.
Seems like the OWP or SOS around the .575 mark was good enough to make it to the dance last year... I'll have to go back and look at the SOS for the Pool C's in 2014:
Amherst (13-1-4) 0.587
Brandeis (17-2-0) 0.633
Brockport State (10-3-6) 0.568
Coast Guard (13-2-3) 0.58
Cortland State (14-4-1) 0.547
Dickinson (11-5-2) 0.604
Dominican (14-5-2) 0.545
Emory (13-3-2) 0.603
Franklin and Marshall (15-1-2) 0.573
Loras (15-2-2) 0.575
North Park (13-5-1) 0.597
Ohio Wesleyan (15-4-2) 0.556
Rochester (9-5-3) 0.627
Rutgers-Newark (15-5-0) 0.557
Salisbury (12-2-5) 0.556
Texas-Dallas (13-4-3) 0.516
Tufts (10-2-4) 0.576
Wheaton (Mass.) (16-3-2) 0.597
Avg .577
Excellent insights and comments on the importance of scheduling and the factors that must be considered. I enjoyed reading the posts.
I do agree with NCAC New England's "quibble...with the "beat each other up" theme that is so popular with NESCAC." Some very good points made on this topic.
"Well, what do u think of Tufts upcoming schedule which likely includes Amherst, Williams, Middlebury, Bowdoin, et al. and non- conference games with Gordon and Brandeis? That sounds like a VERY tough schedule to me... They may get "beat up" and put themselves at jeopardy for an NCAA tourney bid....."
Is that their real schedule for next year, or are you guessing? That would be a very solid to very good schedule, but I wouldn't call it "very tough." This is another example of wanting to count being part of the NESCAC as an advantage when it's convenient and then as a disadvantage when it's convenient, with the common denominator of saying whatever makes the NESCAC sound as special and exclusive as possible. Just be the best instead of spending so much time selling that you are the best. NESCAC teams get a boost from being from the NESCAC. It's considered the best conference, along with the UAA, and that's why they get 3-4 bids consistently. Will Tufts being playing a different, harder conference schedule than usual, or the same conference schedule? As for non-conference, Brandeis and Gordon are nice non-conference games. Would be better if they also added Wheaton (MA) or a Babson and a Rochester or a top-half Liberty League team. It certainly is not tougher than some of the schedules UAA teams play (like Chicago, Wash U, Rochester) or a Rutgers-Camden or even a Haverford or Swarthmore.
Quote from: NCAC New England on February 28, 2015, 03:56:15 PM
"Well, what do u think of Tufts upcoming schedule which likely includes Amherst, Williams, Middlebury, Bowdoin, et al. and non- conference games with Gordon and Brandeis? That sounds like a VERY tough schedule to me... They may get "beat up" and put themselves at jeopardy for an NCAA tourney bid....."
Is that their real schedule for next year, or are you guessing? That would be a very solid to very good schedule, but I wouldn't call it "very tough." This is another example of wanting to count being part of the NESCAC as an advantage when it's convenient and then as a disadvantage when it's convenient, with the common denominator of saying whatever makes the NESCAC sound as special and exclusive as possible. Just be the best instead of spending so much time selling that you are the best. NESCAC teams get a boost from being from the NESCAC. It's considered the best conference, along with the UAA, and that's why they get 3-4 bids consistently. Will Tufts being playing a different, harder conference schedule than usual, or the same conference schedule? As for non-conference, Brandeis and Gordon are nice non-conference games. Would be better if they also added Wheaton (MA) or a Babson and a Rochester or a top-half Liberty League team. It certainly is not tougher than some of the schedules UAA teams play (like Chicago, Wash U, Rochester) or a Rutgers-Camden or even a Haverford or Swarthmore.
Hmmmm. Really? I beg to differ..... I would have to say that would fall in the top 25%
Quote from: Nutmeg on February 28, 2015, 04:51:30 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on February 28, 2015, 03:56:15 PM
"Well, what do u think of Tufts upcoming schedule which likely includes Amherst, Williams, Middlebury, Bowdoin, et al. and non- conference games with Gordon and Brandeis? That sounds like a VERY tough schedule to me... They may get "beat up" and put themselves at jeopardy for an NCAA tourney bid....."
Is that their real schedule for next year, or are you guessing? That would be a very solid to very good schedule, but I wouldn't call it "very tough." This is another example of wanting to count being part of the NESCAC as an advantage when it's convenient and then as a disadvantage when it's convenient, with the common denominator of saying whatever makes the NESCAC sound as special and exclusive as possible. Just be the best instead of spending so much time selling that you are the best. NESCAC teams get a boost from being from the NESCAC. It's considered the best conference, along with the UAA, and that's why they get 3-4 bids consistently. Will Tufts being playing a different, harder conference schedule than usual, or the same conference schedule? As for non-conference, Brandeis and Gordon are nice non-conference games. Would be better if they also added Wheaton (MA) or a Babson and a Rochester or a top-half Liberty League team. It certainly is not tougher than some of the schedules UAA teams play (like Chicago, Wash U, Rochester) or a Rutgers-Camden or even a Haverford or Swarthmore.
Hmmmm. Really? I beg to differ..... I would have to say that would fall in the top 25%
Beg to differ about what? Did I say that wouldn't be top 25%? Is that the same as "VERY tough"? Are you comparing playing Gordon out of conference to Chicago and Wheaton playing Loras out of conference? Or have you not heard of Loras or Wartburg or Gustavus Adolphus or Whitworth or North Park?
Quote from: NCAC New England on February 28, 2015, 05:26:42 PM
Quote from: Nutmeg on February 28, 2015, 04:51:30 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on February 28, 2015, 03:56:15 PM
"Well, what do u think of Tufts upcoming schedule which likely includes Amherst, Williams, Middlebury, Bowdoin, et al. and non- conference games with Gordon and Brandeis? That sounds like a VERY tough schedule to me... They may get "beat up" and put themselves at jeopardy for an NCAA tourney bid....."
Is that their real schedule for next year, or are you guessing? That would be a very solid to very good schedule, but I wouldn't call it "very tough." This is another example of wanting to count being part of the NESCAC as an advantage when it's convenient and then as a disadvantage when it's convenient, with the common denominator of saying whatever makes the NESCAC sound as special and exclusive as possible. Just be the best instead of spending so much time selling that you are the best. NESCAC teams get a boost from being from the NESCAC. It's considered the best conference, along with the UAA, and that's why they get 3-4 bids consistently. Will Tufts being playing a different, harder conference schedule than usual, or the same conference schedule? As for non-conference, Brandeis and Gordon are nice non-conference games. Would be better if they also added Wheaton (MA) or a Babson and a Rochester or a top-half Liberty League team. It certainly is not tougher than some of the schedules UAA teams play (like Chicago, Wash U, Rochester) or a Rutgers-Camden or even a Haverford or Swarthmore
Hmmmm. Really? I beg to differ..... I would have to say that would fall in the top 25%
Beg to differ about what? Did I say that wouldn't be top 25%? Is that the same as "VERY tough"? Are you comparing playing Gordon out of conference to Chicago and Wheaton playing Loras out of conference? Or have you not heard of Loras or Wartburg or Gustavus Adolphus or Whitworth or North Park?
Not comparing anything my friend... Just voicing an opinion..... But I may compare Brandeis to a few of them..... no, I never heard of those schools.. where are they?😉
Lebanon Valley College soccer recently released this video. It highlights some very good soccer. While LVC may have had a bit of a down year in 2014, they are a program on the rise in the MAC under the very capable leadership of head coach Charlie Grimes.
http://youtu.be/bsRli8WVILY (http://youtu.be/bsRli8WVILY)
As we approach recruit and schedule announcements for the 2015 season, here's a look at teams that have won multiple National Championships over the 41 year history of the NCCA DIII National Soccer Tournament.
Team # Championships Conference
Messiah 10 MAC/Commonwealth
UNC Greensboro 5 Dixie/USA South
Babson 3 CAC
UC San Diego 3 N/A
Wheaton (IL) 2 CCIW
Ohio Wesleyan 2 NCAC
Lock Haven 2 PSAC West
Rowan 2 NJAC
All eyes on Tufts now, as they attempt to become the first ever NESCAC team to repeat as National Champions and also the first ever NESCAC team to win more than one National Championship. BEST OF LUCK!
Note: If anyone knows what conference UC San Diego played in during their time in DIII please chime in.
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on March 05, 2015, 06:57:09 PM
As we approach recruit and schedule announcements for the 2015 season, here's a look at teams that have won multiple National Championships over the 41 year history of the NCCA DIII National Soccer Tournament.
Team # Championships Conference
Messiah 10 MAC/Commonwealth
UNC Greensboro 5 Dixie/USA South
Babson 3 CAC
UC San Diego 3 N/A
Wheaton (IL) 2 CCIW
Ohio Wesleyan 2 NCAC
Lock Haven 2 PSAC West
Rowan 2 NJAC
All eyes on Tufts now, as they attempt to become the first ever NESCAC team to repeat as National Champions and also the first ever NESCAC team to win more than one National Championship. BEST OF LUCK!
Note: If anyone knows what conference UC San Diego played in during their time in DIII please chime in.
Obviously, it will difficult to repeat for any team (except maybe Messish) but I wish the Jumbos the best. They will have to be focused as all will be gunning for them!
UCSD was independent, but now with the return of Mr.Right we can get a wonderful history lesson. I believe he previously spoke very highly of the program and declared (rightfully so) as one of the all time greats in the late 80s early 90s.
You are correct UCSD was an independent and a powerhouse. They would regularly beat D1 and D2 schools on the west coast during the year. They had legit D1 players and with their egomaniacal head coach Derek Armstrong, they dominated D3 for a 10 year stretch. Their admissions standards were those of a D2 school not a D3 school and eventually the school moved to D2.
Just to chime in.
I think this is a very important list.
It confirms my prior thoughts that OWU and Wheaton are in a class all by themselves among D3 teams.
OWU has been in the mix now for 20 years and Wheaton for 30.
Wheaton was in the Finals in 99, 06, and 14.
Just think they could be the 2nd winninest program in D3 History with a longer track record for great success than the Great Messiah.
Also, these boyz are always full of CLASS, they play so hard but always fair.
One of the best teams I have personally competed against.
I'm not sure what conference (if any) that Babson was in, but it was most likely not the CAC. The Constitution Athletic Conference was not formed until about 1990. The CAC then evolved into the present NEWMAC sometime in the late 90s.
Quote from: Off Pitch on March 09, 2015, 03:09:21 PM
I'm not sure what conference (if any) that Babson was in, but it was most likely not the CAC. The Constitution Athletic Conference was not formed until about 1990. The CAC then evolved into the present NEWMAC sometime in the late 90s.
Back in the 1970s, there really weren't any D3 conferences in New England. In fact, no one really paid attention to divisions due to the relatively small number of schools that fielded programs. Babson used to play (and often beat) the D1 teams in the Boston area (Harvard, BU, BC, etc.), while I know from personal experience that what are now the Maine NESCAC schools (Bates, Bowdoin, Colby) played the University of Maine (D1) twice each year. Also, in the 1970s, a very small number of schools were selected for the NCAA tournament (maximum of 16?), and they were essentially all at large selections made by the Committee. There were one or two regional rounds and then the Final Four. Babson hosted a few of the early Final Fours over Thanksgiving Weekend. Those early Babson powerhouses drew most of their players from the old Bay State League in Eastern Mass., more particularly from Needham, Braintree, and Wellesley.
Quote from: Saint of Old on March 09, 2015, 01:25:20 PM
Just to chime in.
I think this is a very important list.
It confirms my prior thoughts that OWU and Wheaton are in a class all by themselves among D3 teams.
OWU has been in the mix now for 20 years and Wheaton for 30.
Wheaton was in the Finals in 99, 06, and 14.
Just think they could be the 2nd winninest program in D3 History with a longer track record for great success than the Great Messiah.
Also, these boyz are always full of CLASS, they play so hard but always fair.
One of the best teams I have personally competed against.
I have to agree that Wheaton and OWU are elite programs.
I have had the opportunity to see Wheaton play live about a half dozen or more times and I must agree they carry themselves with honor and class - no doubt about it. They should have a great run this year and in my estimation may be the pre-season favorite to win it all. And Marshall Hollingsworth has got to be on the list of players to watch for potential POY honors. Really a great program they have there. We will see what kind of fire their new coach brings to the table (himself a former Wheaton player). Should be fun to watch.
I'm not quite as familiar with OWU, but certainly a fantastic program.
As for Messiah, they lose 7-8 starters (several national caliber) so jury is out. I believe they graduate something like 70% of their goals. But they have lost great classes of players before and seem to not miss a beat (also been in the mix for about 30 years). Incoming freshman class will be important. So we will see.
Would love to see these three teams all play each other somewhere along the way in 2015. Unlikely, but that would be fun to watch.
Former Franklin & Marshall College players signing pro contracts...
http://www.godiplomats.com/sports/m-soccer/2014-15/releases/20150302ev73v4 (http://www.godiplomats.com/sports/m-soccer/2014-15/releases/20150302ev73v4)
http://www.godiplomats.com/sports/m-soccer/2014-15/releases/20150126mx7ol3 (http://www.godiplomats.com/sports/m-soccer/2014-15/releases/20150126mx7ol3)
Messiah's 2015 scheudle has been released (story (http://gomessiah.com/news/2015/3/17/MSOC_0317150105.aspx), schedule (http://gomessiah.com/schedule.aspx?path=msoc)) and it's a disappointment. While you can never be certain of the strength of a schedule ahead of time (sometimes a typically strong team has an off year or conversely a traditionally mediocre team is surprisingly good), but on paper this is a serious downgrade in overall quality of opponents. I'm sure that wasn't the goal, and I'd guess much if it was beyond their control.
MESSIAH MEN'S SOCCER 2015 SCHEDULESep. 4 | | Allegheny | (N) |
Sep. 5 | | Carnegie Mellon | (A) |
Sep. 11 | | Randolph | (H) |
Sep. 12 | | Houghton | (H) |
Sep. 16 | | Gettysburg | (H) |
Sep. 19 | | Rowan | (H) |
Sep. 23 | | York (Pa.) | (A) |
Sep. 26 | | Misericordia | (H) |
Sep. 30 | | Elizabethtown | (A) |
Oct. 3 | C | Hood | (A) |
Oct. 6 | C | Lebanon Valley | (H) |
Oct. 10 | | Washington & Lee | (H) |
Oct. 14 | C | Lycoming | (A) |
Oct. 17 | C | Arcadia | (H) |
Oct. 20 | C | Widener | (A) |
Oct. 24 | C | Albright | (A) |
Oct. 28 | C | Stevenson | (H) |
Oct. 31 | C | Alvernia | (H) |
C - Commonwealth Conf. game | H - home game, A - Away game, N - neutral siteThe conference slate is what it is and there's little use discussing that, but the non-conference schedule looks . . . very mediocre. No complete cupcakes, mind you, but no one to get excited about and few encounters that would seem to be good measuring sticks for a program whose sights are set on a national title every year.
Very odd not to see long-time annual opponent Dickinson, a nearby school who usually has a solid to strong team. I've got to think this is either the result of scheduling conflicts or Dickinson not wanting to play Messiah anymore, but who knows. After a pair of home-and-aways with Catholic over the past 4 years, they are off the schedule. Not a Top 25 opponent, but still a solid team recently.
The Montclair State home-and-away 2013/2014 has not been renewed. This year's schedule has no one of that stature like Oneonta St. (2012) and Ohio Wesleyan (2011) in previous years. The rivalry match with E-town persists for a second year as a non-conference game, but that does nothing for the strength of schedule. York, the team that in many ways had replaced E-town as Messiah's biggest rival, is back, but coming off their worst season in a long time and with a change of coach, who knows what level opponent they will be. Misericordia is back which is good, but they might be the best out-of-conference adversary, and that's not good.
They added Randolph who had that Cinderella run in the NCAA's four years ago and got snubbed by the NCAA committee the following year, but they have slunk back into the pack in an underwhelming ODAC. Best 2014 record of the additions belongs to Washington & Lee, but that's the result of a soft schedule as they could only muster 5th in the ODAC. Carnegie Mellon is the addition to most grab your attention, but it's hard to predict what you'll get with them from year to year. That games comes the second day of the CMU's opening weekend tournament, so even if they are improved from last year it might not show yet 24 hours after their season opener.
Here's a breakdown of sorts of the opponents retained, dropped, and added to the non-conference schedule giving their 2014 W-L-T records, conference finish, and post-season acheivements.
RetainedYork (Pa.) (7-6-5) - CAC 7th place (missed 6-team playoffs for first time 24 years), preennial Top 25 team previous 10 years
Misericordia (15-6-2) - Freedom T-1st place, ECAC Mid-Atlantic Champs, four NCAA appearances in previous five years
Gettysburg (9-7-1) - Centennial T-8th place
Elizabethtown (7-5-3) - Landmark T-4th place (missed playoffs on tie-breaker)
Rowan (10-9-0) - NJAC 7th place
DroppedMontclair State (17-5-0) - NJAC Reg. Season & Tourn. Champs, NCAA's one-and-done (3-0 loss to Stevens)
Dickinson (11-6-2) - Centennial 3rd place, NCAA's one-and-done (lost to eventual champ Tufts 2-1)
Catholic (10-5-6) - Landmark Reg. Season & Tourn. Champs, NCAA Rnd of 32 (elim. on PK's after 0-0 tie with Muhlenberg)
TCNJ (7-9-2) - NJAC 8th place
Redlands (11-5-0) - SCIAC Reg. Season Champs
Neumann (10-9-2) - undefeated CSAC Reg. Season & Tourn. Champs, NCAA's one-and-done (3-0 loss to Cortland St.)
AddedCarnegie Mellon (8-5-3) - UAA 5th place
Allegheny (7-9-2) - NCAC 7th place
Randolph (7-7-4) - ODAC 6th place
Houghton (9-9-2) - Empire 8 6th place
Washington & Lee (11-5-2) - ODAC 5th place
As a W&L grad I'm looking forward to that game. But I can also understand why it won't knock any of the Messiah fans' socks off...
Schedules are never totally "out of their control". While there are certain conflicts that come up from time to time I have a hard time believing it was a factor in most cases. Usually you setup a home and away and after two years you revisit the situation if need be. Most games like York are plugged into the same dates as previous years. I would venture to guess upwards of 80% of non-conference opponents in D3 would want to play Messiah if not more. 1. It boosts their SOS considerably win or lose. 2. You have nothing to lose as if the team does lose they were supposed to and if they get a result that is icing and would factor in considerably to the committee. The only team that has something to lose is Messiah. I would compare it to the 80's when some D1 schools would play D3's that had a tradition of playing. Dartmouth v Williams. UVM v Middlebury. Tufts v Harvard. Brandeis v Harvard. Yale v Wesleyan etc. Those D3 schools had nothing to lose and the D1's everything.
We do not know for sure how McCarty looks at his schedule but he was working on this schedule as most coaches do in the fall of 2014 for the following year. I will say this.McCarty has never shied away from playing tough non-conference games compared to Brandt. We would all be guessing if we knew what went into this years current schedule as is. I guess my point is that scheduling conflicts do occur but not unless you are unwilling to fix the issue or they do not occur at the rate of every game being scheduled.
I like the opening tournament but in my opinion most of their non-conference should be filled with the upper-tier of the CC if possible and an opening tournament away / neutral with 2 Top 25 teams.
Didn't mean to suggest your non-conference schedule is largely out of your control, but given that previous years' schedules indicate that Messiah
(a) isn't afraid to schedule tough opponents,
(b) nor do they avoid synthetic surfaces like they did with the old astroturf carpet (e.g. Johns Hopkins),
(c) nor do they avoid playing NJAC schools anymore (some of which used to have the dreaded astroturf carpet, but also I think there may have equally been a desire to avoid the higher risk of injury that may have come with the NJAC's differing standard of what constitutes a foul or a card-able offense.)
I have to wonder if this year was simply a worst-case scenario with scheduling conflicts and trying to fill out non-conference slate with the type opponents Messiah would prefer to play.
I agree that it would be nice to see Messiah pick-up a couple more top-half Centennial teams, especially with the loss of Dickinson (although maybe it's just a one-year hiatus if it was due to a scheduling conflict that couldn't be worked out). And a top-half NJAC school each year would be nice.
If York bounces back and Carnegie Mellon has a better season than last, the schedule won't look as bad as it does right now. Likewise if any of the other teams can improve some. But that's a lot of if's. We'll see. It will be a rebuilding (relaoding?) year, so perhaps not the worst timing for a softer schedule, but it's a trade-off in which you lose those mathces that most push you, stretch you, show you where you need to improve, and prepare you for November.
Agreed. However do not underestimate the fact that McCarty saw the rebuilding rrr reloading and maybe knew that Brandt requested his papers all the way back to last fall and said I will hit the brakes on the schedule. Most likely not true but I would imagine the Montclair State game is the biggest teller in this debate. That is the one game that if McCarty was confident in his national contender in 2015 would have MADE work in the schedule including shuffling other games. On the other hand, maybe MSU did not want to travel midweek to Messiah or there was a conflict that would have forced Messiah to switch the York or ETOWN date which they would have refused to do. Now I find myself doubting my original point but it is all speculation either way but fun to debate either way.
Also every coach has their preference in scheduling non-conference games with which can be seen in the games they schedule year after year. This topic gets my attention because it CAN not always but can give you a little sneak into the head of the coach and see where he is coming from. I am most familiar with Nescac and there are some "tells" in some of the schools schedules year after year.
1. Amherst- Serpone loves to schedule non-conference road games and would prefer to play weak non-conference teams with predicted good W-L records on the road for the extra % of points it gives you in the SOS. Last year
-at New England College, at Elms, at Mt.St Mary's, at Drew. WNEC was neutral
2. Williams-Russo will refuse to play non-conference road games longer than one hour on a weekday and preferred to play back to back on multiple weekends.
3. Middlebury-Saward would rather play non-conference games at home and basically does not leave the state of Vermont unless forced to Colby-Sawyer which is right over the border. Also, consistently one of the weakest non-conference schedules year after year.
4. Wesleyan- Wheeler is not scared of playing anyone as usually has the toughest non-conference schedule every year. Also, will travel mid week anytime.
I could go on and on but these traits are consistent with some of these coaches and other coaches in other conferences year after year.
Quote from: Mr.Right on March 17, 2015, 05:01:28 PM
Also every coach has their preference in scheduling non-conference games with which can be seen in the games they schedule year after year. This topic gets my attention because it CAN not always but can give you a little sneak into the head of the coach and see where he is coming from. I am most familiar with Nescac and there are some "tells" in some of the schools schedules year after year.
1. Amherst- Serpone loves to schedule non-conference road games and would prefer to play weak non-conference teams with predicted good W-L records on the road for the extra % of points it gives you in the SOS. Last year
-at New England College, at Elms, at Mt.St Mary's, at Drew. WNEC was neutral
2. Williams-Russo will refuse to play non-conference road games longer than one hour on a weekday and preferred to play back to back on multiple weekends.
3. Middlebury-Saward would rather play non-conference games at home and basically does not leave the state of Vermont unless forced to Colby-Sawyer which is right over the border. Also, consistently one of the weakest non-conference schedules year after year.
4. Wesleyan- Wheeler is not scared of playing anyone as usually has the toughest non-conference schedule every year. Also, will travel mid week anytime.
I could go on and on but these traits are consistent with some of these coaches and other coaches in other conferences year after year.
Tufts also schedules a few strong non conference games each year
If a team belongs to a Conf with an automatic bid, doesn't the SOS only technically come into play if you don't win your conference. I suppose it could also impact your seeding in the national tourny, but if you are Messiah maybe that doesn't really matter a lot. I know there have been years when Messiah had tough games early in the tourny and blew other teams out late, so maybe they dont care too much about seeding. I guess SOS could also impact your national ranking throughout the season. But if your goal is to win the national tourny then maybe you don't care too much about rankings along the way. You just want to get into the tourney and win it. Just offering a possibilty for discussion that there may be a different approach out there.
Of course some on this board think that Messiah may not win their conf (it has happened in the past), then SOS would have an impact.
Also does anyone have access to Messiah's pre-season schedule? Maybe that's another piece of the puzzle.
Interesting article in the current issue of the NSCAA Soccer Journal about " The Messiah Method" (March/April 2015 Issue, pages 8-10).
Key quote from the article:
"This doesn't happen overnight...Be patient and persevere. This Messiah method can be transformational, but it requires time and tenacity. Tell your team. Tell your boss. Then, tell your mirror. That person may need more convincing than anyone else."
It also requires no competition when recruiting kids
Quote from: Mr.Right on March 23, 2015, 01:05:40 PM
It also requires no competition when recruiting kids
Not sure I follow what you mean by that.
It requires an AD that will have confidence in a young Coach.
Enough confidence to know that he will lose for 3-5 years before his philosophy can be implemented and players buy in 100%.
Goes without saying it requires first and foremost a Coach with self confidence and a game plan.
For about 10 or so programs in the country it is rinse and repeat, but to get there it takes a few seasons of losing while learning to win the correct way.
You need an AD that supports soccer but more importantly you need admissions to help get you players in. Coaches do not win games players do. Coaches can affect the result occasionally but without players they will not win consistently. You need a school with a large endowment that can offer players nice facilities that can lure them away from your competition. In other words, you need an edge in recruiting first and foremost.
If their were more schools like Messiah at the D1 level, Messiah would be a relative after thought. We have discussed this before and concluded the D1 Christian schools that Messiah would normally compete with for players are not strong soccer powers.
Quote from: Mr.Right on March 24, 2015, 12:45:18 PM
You need an AD that supports soccer but more importantly you need admissions to help get you players in. Coaches do not win games players do. Coaches can affect the result occasionally but without players they will not win consistently. You need a school with a large endowment that can offer players nice facilities that can lure them away from your competition. In other words, you need an edge in recruiting first and foremost.
If their were more schools like Messiah at the D1 level, Messiah would be a relative after thought. We have discussed this before and concluded the D1 Christian schools that Messiah would normally compete with for players are not strong soccer powers.
Wheaton is a Christian school....does Messiah compete with Wheaton for players?
Quote from: Nutmeg on March 24, 2015, 03:22:08 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on March 24, 2015, 12:45:18 PM
You need an AD that supports soccer but more importantly you need admissions to help get you players in. Coaches do not win games players do. Coaches can affect the result occasionally but without players they will not win consistently. You need a school with a large endowment that can offer players nice facilities that can lure them away from your competition. In other words, you need an edge in recruiting first and foremost.
If their were more schools like Messiah at the D1 level, Messiah would be a relative after thought. We have discussed this before and concluded the D1 Christian schools that Messiah would normally compete with for players are not strong soccer powers.
Wheaton is a Christian school....does Messiah compete with Wheaton for players?
Wheaton is fiercely competitive with Messiah for players.
Quote from: Mr.Right on March 24, 2015, 12:45:18 PM
You need an AD that supports soccer but more importantly you need admissions to help get you players in. Coaches do not win games players do. Coaches can affect the result occasionally but without players they will not win consistently. You need a school with a large endowment that can offer players nice facilities that can lure them away from your competition. In other words, you need an edge in recruiting first and foremost.
If their were more schools like Messiah at the D1 level, Messiah would be a relative after thought. We have discussed this before and concluded the D1 Christian schools that Messiah would normally compete with for players are not strong soccer powers.
Mr Right,
The only person that made that conclusion about Messiah was you. Here's just one quick example of how your point-of-view is on this is flawed.
Have you ever heard of a player by the name of Keegan Rosenberry? Look him up, he plays for Georgetown and is destined for the pros, maybe MLS. Read his bio. He attended Lancaster Mennonite High School (Christian school in PA), and was recruited by Messiah but chose Georgetown instead. And he was apparently very connected to Messiah...his father was a former Messiah soccer player, his Mother played field hockey at Messiah, and his older sister also played field hockey at Messiah. Yet he chose Georgetown.
This is just one example, of many I'm sure, that shows that Messiah competes against D1 schools just as much as any other D3 soccer program does, maybe more.
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on March 24, 2015, 09:47:23 PM
Quote from: Nutmeg on March 24, 2015, 03:22:08 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on March 24, 2015, 12:45:18 PM
You need an AD that supports soccer but more importantly you need admissions to help get you players in. Coaches do not win games players do. Coaches can affect the result occasionally but without players they will not win consistently. You need a school with a large endowment that can offer players nice facilities that can lure them away from your competition. In other words, you need an edge in recruiting first and foremost.
If their were more schools like Messiah at the D1 level, Messiah would be a relative after thought. We have discussed this before and concluded the D1 Christian schools that Messiah would normally compete with for players are not strong soccer powers.
Wheaton is a Christian school....does Messiah compete with Wheaton for players?
Wheaton is fiercely competitive with Messiah for players.
Who generally has the edge?
Quote from: Nutmeg on March 24, 2015, 10:28:24 PM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on March 24, 2015, 09:47:23 PM
Quote from: Nutmeg on March 24, 2015, 03:22:08 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on March 24, 2015, 12:45:18 PM
You need an AD that supports soccer but more importantly you need admissions to help get you players in. Coaches do not win games players do. Coaches can affect the result occasionally but without players they will not win consistently. You need a school with a large endowment that can offer players nice facilities that can lure them away from your competition. In other words, you need an edge in recruiting first and foremost.
If their were more schools like Messiah at the D1 level, Messiah would be a relative after thought. We have discussed this before and concluded the D1 Christian schools that Messiah would normally compete with for players are not strong soccer powers.
Wheaton is a Christian school....does Messiah compete with Wheaton for players?
Wheaton is fiercely competitive with Messiah for players.
Who generally has the edge?
My thoughts on that are that in the 90's Wheaton probably had the edge. Since Messiah started winning all those National Championships in the 2000's it probably shifted to Messiah a bit. Although Wheaton still was getting great players. After Wheaton's really strong run this year, the tables may be balancing out again. Those are my thoughts. Other's may have more insights.
Quote from: Nutmeg on March 24, 2015, 03:22:08 PM
Wheaton is a Christian school....does Messiah compete with Wheaton for players?
I'm sure they still do. Given their similar religious orientation, they've always "competed" for students, in general, as Pennsylvania has always been a leading provider of students for Wheaton which truly draws nationally (only 21% in-state). As to soccer recruits, back in the day, Wheaton would win out more often than not, and that changed as Messiah began winning national titles and could increasingly draw players from well beyond their own region as Wheaton had been doing for decades. That was strongly symbolized by eventual POY JD Binger from the Chicago suburbs choosing Messiah over nearby Wheaton in the mid-2000's. Now, I'm sure Messiah has a significant edge if the decision comes down to soccer.
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on March 24, 2015, 10:25:00 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on March 24, 2015, 12:45:18 PM
If their were more schools like Messiah at the D1 level, Messiah would be a relative after thought. We have discussed this before and concluded the D1 Christian schools that Messiah would normally compete with for players are not strong soccer powers.
Mr Right,
The only person that made that conclusion about Messiah was you. Here's just one quick example of how your point-of-view is on this is flawed.
Have you ever heard of a player by the name of Keegan Rosenberry? Look him up, he plays for Georgetown and is destined for the pros, maybe MLS. Read his bio. He attended Lancaster Mennonite High School (Christian school in PA), and was recruited by Messiah but chose Georgetown instead. And he was apparently very connected to Messiah...his father was a former Messiah soccer player, his Mother played field hockey at Messiah, and his older sister also played field hockey at Messiah. Yet he chose Georgetown.
This is just one example, of many I'm sure, that shows that Messiah competes against D1 schools just as much as any other D3 soccer program does, maybe more.
D3soccerwatcher,
I think what Mr. Right is saying (he can correct me), is that if there were more evangelical Christian Div. I schools also with good men's soccer programs, than Messiah would have much more competition for the top players coming out of high school who would like to play at an evangelical Christian school and a large percentage of them would opt to play at one of the Div. I options over Div. III Messiah and Messiah wouldn't have gotten enough top-level talent to have grown into the powerhouse they are.
Sure, some . . ., many Christian players don't restrict themselves to only considering Christian schools (which your example points out), but some certainly do have that as a preference. For those players, Messiah certainly has a huge recruiting advantage due to the lack of attractive Div. I options (and that's what I understood Mr. Right's point to be).
That is exactly what I was implying. All the credit to Brandt for realizing this and taking advantage of this much more than his predecessor. You cannot fault Shoemaker though because very few coaches back in the day recruited like they do today. Shoemaker got the ball rolling in the early 90's but Brandt went full force when he took over. I would venture to guess that before Bean at Wheaton new what had happened, Messiah had already won 2 national championships and he was behind the 8 ball.
I think the clear and obvious recruiting advantage that Messiah has had may be eroding just a little bit. If they fail to win a championship this year or get close, it will be telling. How do you compete with being able to almost guarantee an 18-year-old kid a national championship? Or multiple championships? If that advantage is gone, or lessened, it clearly helps level the playing field. Messiah's natural competitors for recruits Wheaton, Calvin and increasingly Gordon, have young, driven, charismatic coaches. These colleges and others also arguably have advantages academically and might be in more desirable locations.
McCarty is not loved like Brandt was, nor is he seen as a transformative figure like Brandt was. He certainly has been successful, but there's a sense of him being more of a intelligent caretaker than a visionary.....at least that's the view from the outside. I'd be curious to hear a Messiah insiders respectful, but honest take on the difference between McCarty and Brandt. I think the success of a small college soccer program is hugely dependent upon the head coach and his abilities, personality and charisma.
I know it has been talked about before on here, but what are the minimum requirements to get into the NESCAC schools? Are they fairly similar across the board? A few months ago there was talk of the TIPS. I had no idea what that even was, but definitely very informative.
Mr. Right, you mentioned endowments... Will a team like Washington & Lee soon take over the ODAC? Do you know anything about Singleton (2nd year from MIT). Haven't seen them play, but they have some pieces of the puzzle to become a force in that conference, no?
Also, are there any New England schools that we don't hear much about in the forum which are a few years away from being on the regional/national map?
I am sure you folks have talked about this before. Messiah does not play football. Men's Soccer is the top of the food chain.
W&L is going to be an interesting case to watch. Coach Pirhanian was there FOREVER. Over 30 years I believe. I think he was satisfied with putting out good kids, decent ODAC teams, and occasionally competing to win an ODAC championship. Generally W&L finds that an acceptable level for most of its athletic teams, with a few exceptions as listed below. I don't think Coach Pirhanian really had the drive to be a national factor or even to dominate the ODAC, nor do I really think that is required of a W&L coach.
W&L, as a whole, doesn't put a lot of emphasis on athletics. The facilities over the last 20 years have been brought up to scratch, maybe even very good in some areas like the indoor tennis center. However, there really isn't a huge push to take the athletic programs to a national level, just to be appropriate for the school. There are some programs that year in and out are nationally competitive, men's and women's tennis, men's and recently women's lacrosse, the men's and women's swimming teams usually have a few nationally competitive pieces, same with track and field.
But a lot of it is dependent on the coach in each sport. Those coaches are not going to slide a kid through that can't get in on his own. And W&L's standards are high. Much higher than the rest of the ODAC and close to the lower and middle NESCAC schools. We will see if Coach Singleton can transform the program or just improve it a bit. I expect it will get better based on his drive, but dominate the ODAC? Become a national presence? I find that unlikely unless he really is an exceptional coach and recruiter.
4-2-3-1 CB said
"I think the success of a small college soccer program is hugely dependent upon the head coach and his abilities, personality and charisma".
Ahh, my point made one simple sentence.
No surprise that Dr. J, Russo, Bean, Durocher and Brandt all fit this description to the T, and have dominated D3 for the last quarter century.
Not to debate conferences again, but the Tufts coach seems to be the next generation of great coaches with this mix, as does Russo's replacement at Williams (who won a championship and had great success as a player learning under Russo).
Soccer is a weird sport. and to be a great coach one has to first be a good father, teacher, philosopher, psychologist and politician (To deal with AD's)
That is a whole lot of things to embody in one individual, yet it is what is required to deal with hungry, aggressive teenagers, most of whom will be shocked at the level of competition in their first year, as well as admissions and parents who will not easily entrust their children to a stranger for 4 years.
Meesiah's recruiting class: http://gomessiah.com/news/2015/3/24/MSOC_0324151556.aspx
Quote from: 4231CenterBack on March 25, 2015, 10:51:39 AM
McCarty is not loved like Brandt was, nor is he seen as a transformative figure like Brandt was.
I've heard nothing but amazing things about McCarty from someone close to the program. I think he may be more loved than you give him credit for.
As far as being a transformative figure, he hasn't really had much to transform has he? He took over a program that had won something like 5 national championships in 6 years (not sure on that)....but since he's taken over, he's won the national championship all but 2 years (4 championships in 6 years) and in those 2 years they failed to win, his combined record was 39-2-2 with 1 of those losses to the eventual national champion.
Completely fair to say Brandt is a legend at Messiah but I think it's a stretch to say McCarty isn't transformative or loved like Brandt was. I know there is a "Messiah Way" of doing things and the first championship and maybe even the second a lot of people were still giving Brandt all the credit cause they were "his players and recruits" (nevermind McCarty was the assistant all those years as well) but McCarty deserves his fair share of credit. What he's done is simply amazing. He inherited a job where winning was basically the only option or you'd be viewed as a failure and that is all he has done.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on March 25, 2015, 12:19:02 AM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on March 24, 2015, 10:25:00 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on March 24, 2015, 12:45:18 PM
If their were more schools like Messiah at the D1 level, Messiah would be a relative after thought. We have discussed this before and concluded the D1 Christian schools that Messiah would normally compete with for players are not strong soccer powers.
Mr Right,
The only person that made that conclusion about Messiah was you. Here's just one quick example of how your point-of-view is on this is flawed.
Have you ever heard of a player by the name of Keegan Rosenberry? Look him up, he plays for Georgetown and is destined for the pros, maybe MLS. Read his bio. He attended Lancaster Mennonite High School (Christian school in PA), and was recruited by Messiah but chose Georgetown instead. And he was apparently very connected to Messiah...his father was a former Messiah soccer player, his Mother played field hockey at Messiah, and his older sister also played field hockey at Messiah. Yet he chose Georgetown.
This is just one example, of many I'm sure, that shows that Messiah competes against D1 schools just as much as any other D3 soccer program does, maybe more.
D3soccerwatcher,
I think what Mr. Right is saying (he can correct me), is that if there were more evangelical Christian Div. I schools also with good men's soccer programs, than Messiah would have much more competition for the top players coming out of high school who would like to play at an evangelical Christian school and a large percentage of them would opt to play at one of the Div. I options over Div. III Messiah and Messiah wouldn't have gotten enough top-level talent to have grown into the powerhouse they are.
Sure, some . . ., many Christian players don't restrict themselves to only considering Christian schools (which your example points out), but some certainly do have that as a preference. For those players, Messiah certainly has a huge recruiting advantage due to the lack of attractive Div. I options (and that's what I understood Mr. Right's point to be).
I understand the premise that some believe that because Messiah is a Christian college it has some sort of recruiting advantage. However, if you follow that argument to its logical conclusion it seems to crumble to pieces.
Flying Weasel put it this way... if there were more D1 high quality soccer programs..."Messiah wouldn't have gotten enough top-level talent to have grown into the powerhouse they are".
But here's where the argument starts to crumble. Don't all the dozens and dozens of D3 Christian soccer programs (and Christian NAIA and NCCAA programs for that matter) also benefit from the same "lack of D1 Christian soccer programs"? Didn't those dozens of Christian D3 schools have the same opportunity to "have gotten enough top-level talent to have grown into [a] powerhouse". And don't all those schools EVEN TODAY still have the same opportunity to build a powerhouse soccer program out of Christian players just like Messiah. Of course all those Christian colleges had the same opportunity over the past 35 years to build a powerhouse soccer program – but they did not and still have not done it.
How is it that with so many Christian D3 soccer programs across the nation, that Messiah is the only one to crack the code to multiple national championships? It simply CANNOT be just because it is a Christian college – the logic does not hold up. It seems to be because they built a better soccer program that attracted better players over the past 35 years, and all the other Christian, and non-religious colleges for that matter, did not and still have not quite been able to do the same thing. Sure, as Messiah's program progressed they were able to continue to get good players, just like Tufts championship will help their recruiting, especially if they can piece a few more good years together.
If there were only one or two Christian D3 soccer programs and they were always on top maybe there would be an argument. But with so many Christian college D3 soccer programs, and with only one program really breaking through over the past 35 years, the Christian college factor simply cannot be the deciding factor – the logic just does not hold up.
And if lower division Christian NCAA soccer programs benefit from a "lack of D1 Christian soccer programs", why aren't Malone, Cedarville, Palm Beach Atlantic and other Christian colleges absolutely crushing it in D2? They are not. Shouldn't they be getting all the great Christian players too who want a Christian school over D1? This is simply not happening.
Still further, if the best Christian players want D1 and a true "evangelical" environment, shouldn't Liberty be perennial D1 national champions. They are not.
The logic of the argument simply does not compute.
I think that others on this board are absolutely correct. It gets down to the environment that the head coach can develop over time. Put another way, D3 soccer is very head coach centric. My guess is that if the David Brandt/Brad McCarty combo had become head coaches in NESCAC, they would have been equally, if not even more successful then they have been at Messiah (and to the best of my knowledge there are not any Christian colleges in NESCAC).
Quote from: Midwest Soccer on March 25, 2015, 11:24:57 PM
Quote from: 4231CenterBack on March 25, 2015, 10:51:39 AM
McCarty is not loved like Brandt was, nor is he seen as a transformative figure like Brandt was.
I've heard nothing but amazing things about McCarty from someone close to the program. I think he may be more loved than you give him credit for.
As far as being a transformative figure, he hasn't really had much to transform has he? He took over a program that had won something like 5 national championships in 6 years (not sure on that)....but since he's taken over, he's won the national championship all but 2 years (4 championships in 6 years) and in those 2 years they failed to win, his combined record was 39-2-2 with 1 of those losses to the eventual national champion.
Completely fair to say Brandt is a legend at Messiah but I think it's a stretch to say McCarty isn't transformative or loved like Brandt was. I know there is a "Messiah Way" of doing things and the first championship and maybe even the second a lot of people were still giving Brandt all the credit cause they were "his players and recruits" (nevermind McCarty was the assistant all those years as well) but McCarty deserves his fair share of credit. What he's done is simply amazing. He inherited a job where winning was basically the only option or you'd be viewed as a failure and that is all he has done.
I'm just recounting what I've heard from former players and those with more knowledge of the program than I. You'll notice I give lots of credit to McCarty and qualify the statements as an outsiders view. I also ask for a Messiah insiders view of this idea. It all goes to the larger question of the sustainability of the dynasty that Brandt created and McCarty has sustained. Can McCarty keep it going after graduating "the best class ever" at messiah. That's the question I'm interested in.
I'm just recounting what I've heard from former players and those with more knowledge of the program than I. You'll notice I give lots of credit to McCarty and qualify the statements as an outsiders view. I also ask for a Messiah insiders view of this idea. It all goes to the larger question of the sustainability of the dynasty that Brandt created and McCarty has sustained. Can McCarty keep it going after graduating "the best class ever" at Messiah. That's the question I'm interested in.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on March 25, 2015, 11:03:18 AM
I know it has been talked about before on here, but what are the minimum requirements to get into the NESCAC schools? Are they fairly similar across the board? A few months ago there was talk of the TIPS. I had no idea what that even was, but definitely very informative.
Mr. Right, you mentioned endowments... Will a team like Washington & Lee soon take over the ODAC? Do you know anything about Singleton (2nd year from MIT). Haven't seen them play, but they have some pieces of the puzzle to become a force in that conference, no?
Also, are there any New England schools that we don't hear much about in the forum which are a few years away from being on the regional/national map?
Washington and Lee has a very good chance of taking over the ODAC. I have not been to the campus in years but I remember a picturesque setting with decent facilities. As far as Singleton goes he was at MIT for 2 years and took them to the NCAA's both years. He did inherit a good group of players from Gooding when he took over. He is a bright young coach who went to Princeton I believe. That is a soccer rich area down there and he is a good recruiter.
Quote from: 2xfaux on March 25, 2015, 11:19:45 AM
I am sure you folks have talked about this before. Messiah does not play football. Men's Soccer is the top of the food chain.
This is helpful but guarantees nothing. Conn College is the only Nescac school without football and they benefit by usually getting the biggest and rowdiest fans in Nescac. It is a nice home field advantage for them and that is it.
I believe one program that has potential is UMASS Dartmouth. They are in the Little East conference and in a soccer rich area close to Fall River, New Bedford and Providence RI. There is a ton of Portuguese talent in the area and they have a large undergraduate base. If they ever got the right coach in there and made him full time they could do very well.
Quote from: Mr.Right on March 26, 2015, 09:03:54 AM
I believe one program that has potential is UMASS Dartmouth. They are in the Little East conference and in a soccer rich area close to Fall River, New Bedford and Providence RI. There is a ton of Portuguese talent in the area and they have a large undergraduate base. If they ever got the right coach in there and made him full time they could do very well.
Great point, Mr. Right. They have been on the bubble for some time. If they can nail their recruiting of local kids, especially kids who might slip through the cracks that play in the LASA league (as I did so long ago) and convince them to attend UMD, I think they will be very, very good. There is a TON of hidden talent in the Fall River/New Bedford (and Taunton) area.
Quote from: Mr.Right on March 26, 2015, 08:59:10 AM
Quote from: 2xfaux on March 25, 2015, 11:19:45 AM
I am sure you folks have talked about this before. Messiah does not play football. Men's Soccer is the top of the food chain.
This is helpful but guarantees nothing. Conn College is the only Nescac school without football and they benefit by usually getting the biggest and rowdiest fans in Nescac. It is a nice home field advantage for them and that is it.
I agree with Mr Right..."helpful but guarantees nothing". Wheaton (IL) has a perennial top 20 football team and is among the winningest soccer teams in the country and also has higher attendance at their soccer games then virtually all other D3 schools. So football team or not -- probably doesn't have significant impact on soccer.
What I don't like about the NESCAC schedules is that the home football games are often played at the same time as the home soccer games....
There was a question earlier about the Messiah spring schedule. I ran into one of the players a couple of weeks ago when I stopped in to see someone else, and got a chance to ask about this--all scrimmages or friendlies (whatever you want to call them), basically, whether spring or late summer. I don't recall which ones were in the spring, but I recall some names: Johns Hopkins (I know that sounds wrong, but it's what I heard), Princeton, another Ivy (I think it was Columbia but perhaps it was Penn whom they have played in the past), and one other opponent was uncertain but will probably turn out to be a NY/NJ area team (if it happens). Sorry for the vagueness of this comment, but I sense that things were still a bit in flux at that point.
With all of the discussion about Messiah vs other Christian colleges (relative to recruiting), and their heightened success since the late 1990s (when Brandt took over from Shoemaker), I wanted to mention some other, non-soccer factors that could be relevant to this. Messiah is (a) substantially larger in size and (b) much stronger academically than it was when Shoemaker started coaching. I don't have the exact numbers at hand, but it's got to be at least twice as large, with many more faculty from top graduate programs (judging from what they show in their online catalog) and a whole lot more academic majors to pick from. An example is their engineering program, which was always respected but has gotten to the point that it's becoming maybe the largest program at the school. I understand that they just added civil engineering (which makes sense, since the state capital is nearby and that's where a lot of that type of work originates), and that engineering had more incoming students this year than any other major. I don't know how many players study engineering, but I think one of the POY players (Geoff Pezon) did. I know that another really good player maybe ten years ago, an AA defender, was an engineering student. I don't think Wheaton offers engineering as a full program on campus--you have to go somewhere else to finish, so you can't play 4 years there. Engineering obviously pays very well, so this has to matter to some of the players Messiah recruits.
They also do very well placing students in medical school and other medical grad programs, and those programs aren't small. I saw an announcement a couple of years ago about Messiah now having some automatic admission programs with Jefferson (an excellent medical school in Philly) in 2 or 3 professional programs, so that if you get a certain GPA in certain courses at Messiah than you are automatically admitted to Jefferson. Their science students work with faculty on research that gets published--a lot of it, judging from the large number of posters (the students apparently make those for their projects) that you can see if you walk through their science buildings. They get a big audience every spring for a program where students present their work, and a lot of them are going to good graduate schools.
They have a lot of public events at Messiah, too, some of them featuring their own faculty, and they are usually pretty good.
And they have a big honors program that gives big academic scholarships. I think some soccer players qualify for those.
This is different from when Layton started coaching, so Brandt and McCarty obviously have a much stronger school to sell to recruits. Not to mention that Messiah isn't really the same kind of place as Liberty (the D1 school that's been mentioned). I doubt Messiah qualifies as "liberal" in most people's minds--they aren't a party school, and they promote traditional Christian values--but they don't project the same kind of hard-nosed religious stance that Liberty projects. I know quite a few young people who've chosen Messiah over Liberty (I know some who did the reverse, too), and that's what I hear from them.
All of these could be factors. Obviously their soccer success is the biggest reason, but Messiah has to be getting some recruits who just want Messiah for reasons like these also.
Quote from: Nutmeg on March 26, 2015, 11:20:19 PM
What I don't like about the NESCAC schedules is that the home football games are often played at the same time as the home soccer games....
I've read a lot about NESCAC football games interfering with soccer games. So I just randomly picked a top NESCAC soccer school that I know (Amherst) to see how this really plays out.
Here's what I found from the 2014 season:
Amherst soccer played 21 games
3 of Amherst's home soccer games were on the same day as a home Amherst football game
None of these football games were scheduled at the same starting time as the soccer games
There was at least an hour-and-an-half to two-hour offset in starting time for those three "overlapping" games
With only three home soccer games potentially impacted by football and with the offset times, I can't imagine that 3 semi-conflicting football games are having much of an impact on a 21 game soccer season
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on March 28, 2015, 12:55:54 PM
Quote from: Nutmeg on March 26, 2015, 11:20:19 PM
What I don't like about the NESCAC schedules is that the home football games are often played at the same time as the home soccer games....
I've read a lot about NESCAC football games interfering with soccer games. So I just randomly picked a top NESCAC soccer school that I know (Amherst) to see how this really plays out.
Here's what I found from the 2014 season:
Amherst soccer played 21 games
3 of Amherst's home soccer games were on the same day as a home Amherst football game
None of these football games were scheduled at the same starting time as the soccer games
There was at least an hour-and-an-half to two-hour offset in starting time for those three "overlapping" games
With only three home soccer games potentially impacted by football and with the offset times, I can't imagine that 3 semi-conflicting football games are having much of an impact on a 21 game soccer season
I know that Tufts soccer and football overlap on homecoming and parents weekend and haven't checked the other dates but those are 2 big weekends
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on March 28, 2015, 12:55:54 PM
Quote from: Nutmeg on March 26, 2015, 11:20:19 PM
What I don't like about the NESCAC schedules is that the home football games are often played at the same time as the home soccer games....
I've read a lot about NESCAC football games interfering with soccer games. So I just randomly picked a top NESCAC soccer school that I know (Amherst) to see how this really plays out.
Here's what I found from the 2014 season:
Amherst soccer played 21 games
3 of Amherst's home soccer games were on the same day as a home Amherst football game
None of these football games were scheduled at the same starting time as the soccer games
There was at least an hour-and-an-half to two-hour offset in starting time for those three "overlapping" games
With only three home soccer games potentially impacted by football and with the offset times, I can't imagine that 3 semi-conflicting football games are having much of an impact on a 21 game soccer season
Worst example to pick, as Amherst even plays night football games on their new field. The point was brought up not to demonstrate how simultaneous football and soccer scheduling impacts a particular team's home soccer attendance. It is a league wide practice for the traveling NESCAC college to bring
all of their fall teams to the hosting college. So there will be 4 simultaneous or nearly simultaneous athletic contests taking place at any given NESCAC school on a fall weekend. It detracts from men's soccer attendance in general.
Quote from: 1970s NESCAC Player on March 28, 2015, 04:37:49 PM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on March 28, 2015, 12:55:54 PM
Quote from: Nutmeg on March 26, 2015, 11:20:19 PM
What I don't like about the NESCAC schedules is that the home football games are often played at the same time as the home soccer games....
I've read a lot about NESCAC football games interfering with soccer games. So I just randomly picked a top NESCAC soccer school that I know (Amherst) to see how this really plays out.
Here's what I found from the 2014 season:
Amherst soccer played 21 games
3 of Amherst's home soccer games were on the same day as a home Amherst football game
None of these football games were scheduled at the same starting time as the soccer games
There was at least an hour-and-an-half to two-hour offset in starting time for those three "overlapping" games
With only three home soccer games potentially impacted by football and with the offset times, I can't imagine that 3 semi-conflicting football games are having much of an impact on a 21 game soccer season
Worst example to pick, as Amherst even plays night football games on their new field. The point was brought up not to demonstrate how simultaneous football and soccer scheduling impacts a particular team's home soccer attendance. It is a league wide practice for the traveling NESCAC college to bring all of their fall teams to the hosting college. So there will be 4 simultaneous or nearly simultaneous athletic contests taking place at any given NESCAC school on a fall weekend. It detracts from men's soccer attendance in general.
Yes....
Quote from: Nutmeg on March 28, 2015, 11:12:33 PM
Quote from: 1970s NESCAC Player on March 28, 2015, 04:37:49 PM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on March 28, 2015, 12:55:54 PM
Quote from: Nutmeg on March 26, 2015, 11:20:19 PM
What I don't like about the NESCAC schedules is that the home football games are often played at the same time as the home soccer games....
I've read a lot about NESCAC football games interfering with soccer games. So I just randomly picked a top NESCAC soccer school that I know (Amherst) to see how this really plays out.
Here's what I found from the 2014 season:
Amherst soccer played 21 games
3 of Amherst's home soccer games were on the same day as a home Amherst football game
None of these football games were scheduled at the same starting time as the soccer games
There was at least an hour-and-an-half to two-hour offset in starting time for those three "overlapping" games
With only three home soccer games potentially impacted by football and with the offset times, I can't imagine that 3 semi-conflicting football games are having much of an impact on a 21 game soccer season
Worst example to pick, as Amherst even plays night football games on their new field. The point was brought up not to demonstrate how simultaneous football and soccer scheduling impacts a particular team's home soccer attendance. It is a league wide practice for the traveling NESCAC college to bring all of their fall teams to the hosting college. So there will be 4 simultaneous or nearly simultaneous athletic contests taking place at any given NESCAC school on a fall weekend. It detracts from men's soccer attendance in general.
Yes....
In 2014 Tufts football played 4 home games. On only one of those dates did the Tufts soccer team also play the same team at home and the starting times on that one date where offset by an hour. On two of the home football dates Tufts soccer played away. On the other date, Tufts football played Bates at home and Tufts soccer played Amherst at home, with game times offset by an hour-and-an-half.
I've looked at the two top soccer teams in NESCAC (Tufts and Amherst) and I cannot find the direct connection with football.
Article on the Top Ten colleges for soccer in the country...
http://www.collegemagazine.com/top-10-colleges-for-soccer (http://www.collegemagazine.com/top-10-colleges-for-soccer)
Congrats to Messiah, coming in #2 in the country, and the only D3 college to appear on the list.
Jack Thompson (former D3 player, Messiah College) played his first professional game and scored his first professional goal for the USL PRO Charlotte Independence last week. It was also the first team goal for the newly formed franchise.
http://www.charlotteindependence.com/charlotte-left-to-rue-first-half-errors/ (http://www.charlotteindependence.com/charlotte-left-to-rue-first-half-errors/)
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on March 29, 2015, 05:48:09 AM
Quote from: Nutmeg on March 28, 2015, 11:12:33 PM
Quote from: 1970s NESCAC Player on March 28, 2015, 04:37:49 PM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on March 28, 2015, 12:55:54 PM
Quote from: Nutmeg on March 26, 2015, 11:20:19 PM
What I don't like about the NESCAC schedules is that the home football games are often played at the same time as the home soccer games....
I've read a lot about NESCAC football games interfering with soccer games. So I just randomly picked a top NESCAC soccer school that I know (Amherst) to see how this really plays out.
Here's what I found from the 2014 season:
Amherst soccer played 21 games
3 of Amherst's home soccer games were on the same day as a home Amherst football game
None of these football games were scheduled at the same starting time as the soccer games
There was at least an hour-and-an-half to two-hour offset in starting time for those three "overlapping" games
With only three home soccer games potentially impacted by football and with the offset times, I can't imagine that 3 semi-conflicting football games are having much of an impact on a 21 game soccer season
Worst example to pick, as Amherst even plays night football games on their new field. The point was brought up not to demonstrate how simultaneous football and soccer scheduling impacts a particular team's home soccer attendance. It is a league wide practice for the traveling NESCAC college to bring all of their fall teams to the hosting college. So there will be 4 simultaneous or nearly simultaneous athletic contests taking place at any given NESCAC school on a fall weekend. It detracts from men's soccer attendance in general.
Yes....
In 2014 Tufts football played 4 home games. On only one of those dates did the Tufts soccer team also play the same team at home and the starting times on that one date where offset by an hour. On two of the home football dates Tufts soccer played away. On the other date, Tufts football played Bates at home and Tufts soccer played Amherst at home, with game times offset by an hour-and-an-half.
I've looked at the two top soccer teams in NESCAC (Tufts and Amherst) and I cannot find the direct connection with football.
You mention overlapping like it may not matter.... I think it does. I would be surprised if people plan to attend 2 consecutive events...it would be the exception rather than the norm....
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on March 29, 2015, 05:57:17 AM
Article on the Top Ten colleges for soccer in the country...
http://www.collegemagazine.com/top-10-colleges-for-soccer (http://www.collegemagazine.com/top-10-colleges-for-soccer)
Congrats to Messiah, coming in #2 in the country, and the only D3 college to appear on the list.
Congrats! I am surprised the infamous tortilla throwing Gauchos aren't on that list, or Wheaton for that matter....
Quote from: Nutmeg on March 29, 2015, 07:07:32 AM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on March 29, 2015, 05:48:09 AM
Quote from: Nutmeg on March 28, 2015, 11:12:33 PM
Quote from: 1970s NESCAC Player on March 28, 2015, 04:37:49 PM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on March 28, 2015, 12:55:54 PM
Quote from: Nutmeg on March 26, 2015, 11:20:19 PM
What I don't like about the NESCAC schedules is that the home football games are often played at the same time as the home soccer games....
I've read a lot about NESCAC football games interfering with soccer games. So I just randomly picked a top NESCAC soccer school that I know (Amherst) to see how this really plays out.
Here's what I found from the 2014 season:
Amherst soccer played 21 games
3 of Amherst's home soccer games were on the same day as a home Amherst football game
None of these football games were scheduled at the same starting time as the soccer games
There was at least an hour-and-an-half to two-hour offset in starting time for those three "overlapping" games
With only three home soccer games potentially impacted by football and with the offset times, I can't imagine that 3 semi-conflicting football games are having much of an impact on a 21 game soccer season
Worst example to pick, as Amherst even plays night football games on their new field. The point was brought up not to demonstrate how simultaneous football and soccer scheduling impacts a particular team's home soccer attendance. It is a league wide practice for the traveling NESCAC college to bring all of their fall teams to the hosting college. So there will be 4 simultaneous or nearly simultaneous athletic contests taking place at any given NESCAC school on a fall weekend. It detracts from men's soccer attendance in general.
Yes....
In 2014 Tufts football played 4 home games. On only one of those dates did the Tufts soccer team also play the same team at home and the starting times on that one date where offset by an hour. On two of the home football dates Tufts soccer played away. On the other date, Tufts football played Bates at home and Tufts soccer played Amherst at home, with game times offset by an hour-and-an-half.
I've looked at the two top soccer teams in NESCAC (Tufts and Amherst) and I cannot find the direct connection with football.
You mention overlapping like it may not matter.... I think it does. I would be surprised if people plan to attend 2 consecutive events...it would be the exception rather than the norm....
I understand what you are saying. As I recall the dates where Tufts football and soccer have overlap, the football game started first. So even if you wanted to watch the football game, you could still at least catch the second half of the soccer game if you wanted to. Maybe some people wouldn't want to do that. Still at the end of the day, it is only two dates on a 20+ game soccer schedule.
Quote from: Nutmeg on March 29, 2015, 07:10:08 AM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on March 29, 2015, 05:57:17 AM
Article on the Top Ten colleges for soccer in the country...
http://www.collegemagazine.com/top-10-colleges-for-soccer (http://www.collegemagazine.com/top-10-colleges-for-soccer)
Congrats to Messiah, coming in #2 in the country, and the only D3 college to appear on the list.
Congrats! I am surprised the infamous tortilla throwing Gauchos aren't on that list, or Wheaton for that matter....
I don't know what the criteria were for this list, but definitely agree there could be more D3 representation for sure.
Anyone have good spring games to report on? I wonder if Messiah is playing Bucknell again? I know it's just spring and for D1 teams it's a much different season than for D3's (with spring seasons) but last year Messiah beat Bucknell I think 3-0. Bucknell made the D1 NCAA Tournament this past year.
Quote from: Midwest Soccer on March 29, 2015, 08:18:51 PM
Anyone have good spring games to report on? I wonder if Messiah is playing Bucknell again? I know it's just spring and for D1 teams it's a much different season than for D3's (with spring seasons) but last year Messiah beat Bucknell I think 3-0. Bucknell made the D1 NCAA Tournament this past year.
I believe Tufts and Harvard have an informal scrimmage in Spring and in early summer and the scrimmages are very close...don't know if they played yet...
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on March 29, 2015, 06:13:22 AM
Jack Thompson (former D3 player, Messiah College) played his first professional game and scored his first professional goal for the USL PRO Charlotte Independence last week. It was also the first team goal for the newly formed franchise.
http://www.charlotteindependence.com/charlotte-left-to-rue-first-half-errors/ (http://www.charlotteindependence.com/charlotte-left-to-rue-first-half-errors/)
Jack's goal in the game highlights: https://youtu.be/eEXiqbaOEn0?t=28s
D3 Geneva College goalkeeper goes pro in the newly formed ASL.
http://www.geneva.edu/news/2015/03/evergreen-diplomat-bryan-butler.html (http://www.geneva.edu/news/2015/03/evergreen-diplomat-bryan-butler.html)
I didn't know much about the ASL, but just spent some time on their website. Looks like it could provide a next step for many D3 players. Interesting.
Quote from: Midwest Soccer on March 29, 2015, 08:18:51 PM
Anyone have good spring games to report on? I wonder if Messiah is playing Bucknell again? I know it's just spring and for D1 teams it's a much different season than for D3's (with spring seasons) but last year Messiah beat Bucknell I think 3-0. Bucknell made the D1 NCAA Tournament this past year.
Scranton plays Bucknell in Late April, not sure what Messiah is doing.
Quote from: Nutmeg on March 29, 2015, 08:28:18 PM
Quote from: Midwest Soccer on March 29, 2015, 08:18:51 PM
Anyone have good spring games to report on? I wonder if Messiah is playing Bucknell again? I know it's just spring and for D1 teams it's a much different season than for D3's (with spring seasons) but last year Messiah beat Bucknell I think 3-0. Bucknell made the D1 NCAA Tournament this past year.
I believe Tufts and Harvard have an informal scrimmage in Spring and in early summer and the scrimmages are very close...don't know if they played yet...
If this is the case between Tufts and Harvard that would totally be illegal per Nescac rules. Even without coaches, teams cannot get together on an informal basis and play in the spring. Either your facts are wrong or they are breaking Nescac rules.
Quote from: Mr.Right on March 31, 2015, 03:05:51 PM
Quote from: Nutmeg on March 29, 2015, 08:28:18 PM
Quote from: Midwest Soccer on March 29, 2015, 08:18:51 PM
Anyone have good spring games to report on? I wonder if Messiah is playing Bucknell again? I know it's just spring and for D1 teams it's a much different season than for D3's (with spring seasons) but last year Messiah beat Bucknell I think 3-0. Bucknell made the D1 NCAA Tournament this past year.
I believe Tufts and Harvard have an informal scrimmage in Spring and in early summer and the scrimmages are very close...don't know if they played yet...
If this is the case between Tufts and Harvard that would totally be illegal per Nescac rules. Even without coaches, teams cannot get together on an informal basis and play in the spring. Either your facts are wrong or they are breaking Nescac rules.
I am pretty sure they play in the Summer after the teams formally show up for practice. As far as the Spring, goes it could be that they play during a tryout for the PDL Rams. I am not sure about the Spring in that regard.
Quote from: Mr.Right on March 31, 2015, 03:05:51 PM
Quote from: Nutmeg on March 29, 2015, 08:28:18 PM
Quote from: Midwest Soccer on March 29, 2015, 08:18:51 PM
Anyone have good spring games to report on? I wonder if Messiah is playing Bucknell again? I know it's just spring and for D1 teams it's a much different season than for D3's (with spring seasons) but last year Messiah beat Bucknell I think 3-0. Bucknell made the D1 NCAA Tournament this past year.
I believe Tufts and Harvard have an informal scrimmage in Spring and in early summer and the scrimmages are very close...don't know if they played yet...
If this is the case between Tufts and Harvard that would totally be illegal per Nescac rules. Even without coaches, teams cannot get together on an informal basis and play in the spring. Either your facts are wrong or they are breaking Nescac rules.
If that is a violation of NESCAC rules, then most of the NESCAC is in violation as I know 5 other NESCAC's which have informal spring scrimmages (no coaches and no refs) against other colleges and some against other NESCAC's.
I'm pretty sure that they actually scrimmage in the fall, and Tufts uses one of their preseason days (maybe an afternoon) to do this. At least that's what it was last year I believe...I don't think any NESCAC schools I know of play scrimmages in the spring. I don't think it would make much sense since many athletes use their non-playing season to focus on another extra-curricular...or in some cases another sport.
Quote from: All NESCAC on March 31, 2015, 06:55:20 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on March 31, 2015, 03:05:51 PM
Quote from: Nutmeg on March 29, 2015, 08:28:18 PM
Quote from: Midwest Soccer on March 29, 2015, 08:18:51 PM
Anyone have good spring games to report on? I wonder if Messiah is playing Bucknell again? I know it's just spring and for D1 teams it's a much different season than for D3's (with spring seasons) but last year Messiah beat Bucknell I think 3-0. Bucknell made the D1 NCAA Tournament this past year.
I believe Tufts and Harvard have an informal scrimmage in Spring and in early summer and the scrimmages are very close...don't know if they played yet...
If this is the case between Tufts and Harvard that would totally be illegal per Nescac rules. Even without coaches, teams cannot get together on an informal basis and play in the spring. Either your facts are wrong or they are breaking Nescac rules.
If that is a violation of NESCAC rules, then most of the NESCAC is in violation as I know 5 other NESCAC's which have informal spring scrimmages (no coaches and no refs) against other colleges and some against other NESCAC's.
With regards to this, is it technically a violation if no coaches/refs participate or watch? Wouldn't this just be considered a pick-up game? I don't think there is a rule against kids playing by themselves against other kids...
Quote from: oldonionbag on April 01, 2015, 03:53:07 PM
I'm pretty sure that they actually scrimmage in the fall, and Tufts uses one of their preseason days (maybe an afternoon) to do this. At least that's what it was last year I believe...I don't think any NESCAC schools I know of play scrimmages in the spring. I don't think it would make much sense since many athletes use their non-playing season to focus on another extra-curricular...or in some cases another sport.
I think you r right in this regard...
As to scrimmages, I think that at least some of the NESCAC school teams do have informal scrimmages in the spring, but these are run by the teams without benefit or burden of the coaching staffs or school administrations. Not sure if they have refs or not. geography seems to be a big factor in the identity of the opponent.
Final thought on this as my guess with 4 to 5 brand new coaches and 2 without any Nescac experience, I believe their Nescac rulebooks are collecting dust on the floor in their office somewhere. Your team is allowed to get together and practice and scrimmage informally or attend 5v5 or indoor tournaments or whatever. No coaches allowed at any of these events obviously but YOU CANNOT have a Nescac side scrimmage another Nescac side in the spring with or without coaches.
Quote from: Mr.Right on April 03, 2015, 10:18:03 PM
Final thought on this as my guess with 4 to 5 brand new coaches and 2 without any Nescac experience, I believe their Nescac rulebooks are collecting dust on the floor in their office somewhere. Your team is allowed to get together and practice and scrimmage informally or attend 5v5 or indoor tournaments or whatever. No coaches allowed at any of these events obviously but YOU CANNOT have a Nescac side scrimmage another Nescac side in the spring with or without coaches.
Looks like we now have "Scrimmagegate" in the NESCAC....maybe we can get another Wells Investigative Report as certain NESCAC teams have every year scrimmaged each other informally in the Spring....no big deal one way or the other as no coaches and no refs involved even if "technically" forbidden.
It is unbelievable that the NESCAC powers would be so pedagogically backward as to forbid their students from self-organizing participation in their own recreation.
Quote from: Midwest Soccer on March 29, 2015, 08:18:51 PM
Anyone have good spring games to report on? I wonder if Messiah is playing Bucknell again? I know it's just spring and for D1 teams it's a much different season than for D3's (with spring seasons) but last year Messiah beat Bucknell I think 3-0. Bucknell made the D1 NCAA Tournament this past year.
Messiah Men's Soccer Spring Contests:Saturday, April 11th Intrasquad Scrimmage (5pm at Messiah)
Saturday, April 18th vs Alumni (5:30pm at Messiah)
Friday, April 24th vs Johns Hopkins University (7pm at JHU)
This story makes me proud of D3 soccer. Kudos to F&M soccer.
http://www.godiplomats.com/sports/m-soccer/2014-15/releases/20150408bt86fl (http://www.godiplomats.com/sports/m-soccer/2014-15/releases/20150408bt86fl)
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on April 11, 2015, 02:28:23 AM
This story makes me proud of D3 soccer. Kudos to F&M soccer.
http://www.godiplomats.com/sports/m-soccer/2014-15/releases/20150408bt86fl (http://www.godiplomats.com/sports/m-soccer/2014-15/releases/20150408bt86fl)
Hip...hip...hooray!
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on April 11, 2015, 02:28:23 AM
This story makes me proud of D3 soccer. Kudos to F&M soccer.
http://www.godiplomats.com/sports/m-soccer/2014-15/releases/20150408bt86fl (http://www.godiplomats.com/sports/m-soccer/2014-15/releases/20150408bt86fl)
Team Impact is a tremendous program that can make a difference for kids with life-changing or life-threatening illnesses. I have only been involved with one of these children on the extreme periphery, but I have personally witnessed the positive impact the program has had on the child (and his family!), as well as on the team and players involved.
The good news is that there are at least 15 other D3 men's soccer programs participating. They include (in the order they appear on the goteamimpact.org website):
Carnegie Mellon, Lynchburg, Babson, Fitchburg State, Lesley, Wesleyan, Eastern Connecticut State, New England College, Middlebury, Tufts, MIT, Mass Maritime, Coast Guard, Rowan and Williams.
Quote from: Off Pitch on April 13, 2015, 03:07:23 PM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on April 11, 2015, 02:28:23 AM
This story makes me proud of D3 soccer. Kudos to F&M soccer.
http://www.godiplomats.com/sports/m-soccer/2014-15/releases/20150408bt86fl (http://www.godiplomats.com/sports/m-soccer/2014-15/releases/20150408bt86fl)
Team Impact is a tremendous program that can make a difference for kids with life-changing or life-threatening illnesses. I have only been involved with one of these children on the extreme periphery, but I have personally witnessed the positive impact the program has had on the child (and his family!), as well as on the team and players involved.
The good news is that there are at least 15 other D3 men's soccer programs participating. They include (in the order they appear on the goteamimpact.org website):
Carnegie Mellon, Lynchburg, Babson, Fitchburg State, Lesley, Wesleyan, Eastern Connecticut State, New England College, Middlebury, Tufts, MIT, Mass Maritime, Coast Guard, Rowan and Williams.
Kudos to those institutions!
Quote from: Off Pitch on April 13, 2015, 03:07:23 PM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on April 11, 2015, 02:28:23 AM
This story makes me proud of D3 soccer. Kudos to F&M soccer.
http://www.godiplomats.com/sports/m-soccer/2014-15/releases/20150408bt86fl (http://www.godiplomats.com/sports/m-soccer/2014-15/releases/20150408bt86fl)
Team Impact is a tremendous program that can make a difference for kids with life-changing or life-threatening illnesses. I have only been involved with one of these children on the extreme periphery, but I have personally witnessed the positive impact the program has had on the child (and his family!), as well as on the team and players involved.
The good news is that there are at least 15 other D3 men's soccer programs participating. They include (in the order they appear on the goteamimpact.org website):
Carnegie Mellon, Lynchburg, Babson, Fitchburg State, Lesley, Wesleyan, Eastern Connecticut State, New England College, Middlebury, Tufts, MIT, Mass Maritime, Coast Guard, Rowan and Williams.
I first became aware of the program earlier this year when the Messiah men's baseball team did the same thing with the press conference and all. There is participation from all different sports teams across the three NCAA divisions, JUCOs, and probably NAIA as well.
http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2014/05/19/young-cancer-survivor-inspires-tufts-lacrosse-team/E20pUW8iHhzAhTiioFdebL/story.html#
Two senior soccer players from Messiah turn pro...
http://www.gomessiah.com/news/2015/4/14/MSOC_0414153921.aspx?path=msoc (http://www.gomessiah.com/news/2015/4/14/MSOC_0414153921.aspx?path=msoc)
Quote from: oldonionbag on April 15, 2015, 09:38:48 AM
http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2014/05/19/young-cancer-survivor-inspires-tufts-lacrosse-team/E20pUW8iHhzAhTiioFdebL/story.html#
Great story on the reigning national lacrosse champs...Jumbos
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on April 15, 2015, 08:23:46 PM
Two senior soccer players from Messiah turn pro...
http://www.gomessiah.com/news/2015/4/14/MSOC_0414153921.aspx?path=msoc (http://www.gomessiah.com/news/2015/4/14/MSOC_0414153921.aspx?path=msoc)
The team Brian Ramirez is playing with in Sweden, IFK Stockaryd, is in the fourth division level. He scored the lone goal in a 1-0 win in his debut and followed that up in the next game with a pair of assists on the first two goals of a 4-0 win. I think they were tournament games of some sort, not league games. The team's facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/pages/IFK-StockarydR%C3%B6rviks-IF/224086117735029) refers to him by his first name only: Brian.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on April 16, 2015, 09:07:56 AM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on April 15, 2015, 08:23:46 PM
Two senior soccer players from Messiah turn pro...
http://www.gomessiah.com/news/2015/4/14/MSOC_0414153921.aspx?path=msoc (http://www.gomessiah.com/news/2015/4/14/MSOC_0414153921.aspx?path=msoc)
The team Brian Ramirez is playing with in Sweden, IFK Stockaryd, is in the fourth division level. He scored the lone goal in a 1-0 win in his debut and followed that up in the next game with a pair of assists on the first two goals of a 4-0 win. I think they were tournament games of some sort, not league games. The team's facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/pages/IFK-StockarydR%C3%B6rviks-IF/224086117735029) refers to him by his first name only: Brian.
"The team's facebook page refers to him by his first name only: Brian."
HE MUST BE BRAZILIAN....haha
From San Antonio Scorpions (NASL) ---
"The Scorpions also announced the signing of San Antonio native Matt Cardone. The 6'3", 215lb goalkeeper attended Trinity University. While there, he was a two-time Division-III All-American and posted a 0.49 career goals against average. Prior to joining the Scorpions, he was a trialist with MLS expansion team Orlando City SC."
Scrimmage from Saturday:
Bucknell 0
Stevens 0
Messiah's Facebook page reports their Spring game score...
Messiah 4
Johns Hopkins 2
Gordon College announces incoming freshmen class...
http://athletics.gordon.edu/news/2015/5/4/MSOC.aspx?path=msoc (http://athletics.gordon.edu/news/2015/5/4/MSOC.aspx?path=msoc)
Interesting class. The kid on Seacoast is decent. I do not know the others but Tilton academy is not known for soccer. Based on pictures they lack size but I am sure they have some skill which they will need to play on their TIGHT home field dimensions
My thoughts on preseason rankings...
#1 Wheaton (IL)
Other Top 5...Messiah, Ohio Wesleyan, Tufts (long shot for top 5)
Marshall Hollingsworth of Wheaton (top prospect for National POY)
Please chime in with your thoughts!
Teams mentioned above will always be a safe bet to compete at a National level.
In the East, look for Oneonta to have another strong year and Vassar and RPI to challenge from the Liberty League.
Cortland got a taste of success last year and will no doubt want to build on that for '15.
Stevens will want to bounce back strong after a subpar year by their standards.
Nationally, this will be the most open season for the last 15 years.
There are atleast a dozen teams with a very realistic chance of being National Champions.
Quote from: Saint of Old on May 13, 2015, 10:30:07 AM
Teams mentioned above will always be a safe bet to compete at a National level.
In the East, look for Oneonta to have another strong year and Vassar and RPI to challenge from the Liberty League.
Cortland got a taste of success last year and will no doubt want to build on that for '15.
Stevens will want to bounce back strong after a subpar year by their standards.
Nationally, this will be the most open season for the last 15 years.
There are atleast a dozen teams with a very realistic chance of being National Champions.
I have to agree. I couldn't pick one. I can't even pick who would win the NESCAC.
Regarding POY, that is also a hard one. Rashid at Williams could be good but he has been injured the last 2 years. Hollingsworth is also a good pre-season choice but he has also had a few knee surgeries over the last 2 years. So, this is wide open. The defending champion Jumbos have some excellent returning players but they are mostly midfielders and facilitators. The award winner usually has many goals so they may not be recognized (though I don't agree with this)....So, in conclusion, it is a wide open year, both in predicting the champion and POY............
Just curious as to why everyone thinks this season is the most wide open in years. Is that because people are thinking that Messiah may not be dominant this year?
National Final Four Ohio Wesleyan posts their 2015 schedule...
http://www.battlingbishops.com/schedule.aspx?schedule=164&path=msoc (http://www.battlingbishops.com/schedule.aspx?schedule=164&path=msoc)
On the back of the passage of time and the 2015 class exiting stage left, a few random thoughts heading into the 2015 season...
1) Messiah -- It would be easy to guess that Messiah will come back to the pack a bit. They've lost a stellar senior group, and also experienced the unexpected transfer of Brandt. That said, the Falcons also seem to re-load and they've been through many cycles of saying goodbye to what probably seemed like irreplaceable classes before. Expect someone like a Colby Thomas to explode. Messiah also will benefit from dominating their conference and by tourney time should be in the mix for another championship run. The difference may be that they won't be even or better odds versus the rest of the field (like in the past or sort of like UK was in bball this past season). Instead, they likely will be one of 8-10 teams with a legit shot at making a run to a championship.
2) Tufts -- I wouldn't be surprised if Tufts begins the season at #1. Sure, they lost a a few key players, but they return a ton, and I would expect that Shapiro's excellent recruiting has continued. The bottom line is that Tufts broke through, and the swag of having won the whole thing (and the way the did it marching through the three most storied progams in D3) can't be underestimated. I've adjusted my own predictions for the NESCAC season and would now regard Tufts as the favorite in a tight race with Amherst and Middlebury.
3) Wheaton (Ill) -- Wheaton also had a breakthrough of sorts, and if he stays healthy Hollingsworth has got to be a strong candidate for NPOY. I suspect the Thunder's coaching transition will be smooth. Count Wheaton in as one of the top 8-10 teams with a real shot.
4) Oneonta and SLU -- Don't know these teams well, but I'd look for one or both to be strong contenders. SLU has been one of the biggest hard-luck teams (oddly along with and also because of Amherst), and seems like just on a chance basis it's time for a deeper run.
5) OWU and Kenyon -- Obviously this is an area of great interest from my perspective. On paper, both should be down a little, and certainly Kenyon has to recover from a bitter ending and more importantly the graduation of their entire back line. That said, OWU and Kenyon both appear to have favorable schedules and I could see both being 1-2 loss teams (or even undefeated) when they meet in Delaware late in the regular season. This has been a good rivalry for a while, but now it's a great rivalry. Kenyon will expect to win when they play, as opposed to thinking they have a chance to win, which of course doesn't mean that they will win. I think these two schools will have some classic battles over the next couple of years. The Lords return most of their midfield and forwards, and Amolo should be a darkhorse pick for NPOY or at least NCAC POY. I also would guess that both schools have very strong classes coming in. I think both of these teams will be in the 15-20ish range at the beginning of the season with a chance to crack the group of 8-10 with a real shot. Will also be interesting to see if DePauw can rebound and create a legit three team rivalry.
6) Don't know enough about the NJAC to know whether Montclair and/or Camden will be seriously in the hunt.
7) The UAA -- I'm sure a couple of teams will emerge as Sweet 16 teams but hard to see one of them going beyond that. Brandeis will be interesting to watch. Don't think they lose a ton beyond Savonen, and they've had three consecutive years of being highly competitive.
8) The Centennial -- Gut impression is that F&M will still be good but perhaps a half-notch weaker.
9) Loras -- Seems like Loras has gone under the radar a little, but I'm sure they will be right there in the mix. Will be interesting to see how the Wartburg team responds after a great season but in the wake of a pasting at the hands of Wheaton.
10) Can Wheaton (MA) and/or Babson make a run past the first weekend? I'm thinking Wheaton will be good. And will Gordon emerge as a real threat in the New England region?
11) Sleeper pick on a national level -- Thomas More. Write it down.
12) Recruiting -- There's a fair amount of talk on the site about who is good and who is not, what schools seem to have strong classes coming in, how many USSDA players schools have, etc. Especially at the D3 level, and where some kid may not make a decision until the Spring after many schools already have committed themselves to a certain number of players, I think it is very hard to predict how certain schools and especially certain players are going to fare. I'm aware of one player from last year who was considered a strong contender for NPOY all season who was told he could try to walk on at Rochester and Carnegie Mellon. I know another who was both an All-American and an Academic All American who was bypassed by a couple of notable NESCACs. And I am aware of a very productive 4 year player for a top 20 program who was told after acceptance that he could try to walk on at Colby but likely would be out of luck. I imagine there are MANY hit and miss stories of the same sort in D3 land. It's also hard to predict how kids will respond to the whole college experience when they get there. Top recruits may not ever make an impact, and unheralded types may end up becoming the backbone of teams.
Quote from: NCAC New England on May 19, 2015, 09:39:22 PM
On the back of the passage of time and the 2015 class exiting stage left, a few random thoughts for 2016...
1) Messiah -- It would be easy to guess that Messiah will come back to the pack a bit. They've lost a stellar senior group, and also experienced the unexpected transfer of Brandt. That said, the Falcons also seem to re-load and they've been through many cycles of saying goodbye to what probably seemed like irreplaceable classes before. Expect someone like a Colby Thomas to explode. Messiah also will benefit from dominating their conference and by tourney time should be in the mix for another championship run. The difference may be that they won't be even or better odds versus the rest of the field (like in the past or sort of like UK was in bball this past season). Instead, they likely will be one of 8-10 teams with a legit shot at making a run to a championship.
5) OWU and Kenyon -- Obviously this is an area of great interest from my perspective. On paper, both should be down a little, and certainly Kenyon has to recover from a bitter ending and more importantly the graduation of their entire back line. That said, OWU and Kenyon both appear to have favorable schedules and I could both being 1-2 loss teams (or even undefeated) when they meet in Delaware late in the regular season. This has been a good rivalry for a while, but now it's a great rivalry. Kenyon will expect to win when they play, as opposed to thinking they have a chance to win, which of course doesn't mean that they will win. I think these two schools will have some classic battles over the next couple of years. The Lords return most of their midfield and forwards, and Amolo should be a darkhorse pick for NPOY or at least NCAC POY. I also would guess that both schools have very strong classes coming in. I think both of these teams will be in the 15-20ish range at the beginning of the season with a chance to become in the group of 8-10 with a real shot. Will also be interesting to see if DePauw can rebound and create a legit three team rivalry.
I thought I heard Brandt went to Louisville but he is not on the roster.
Also, I think calling Amolo a dark horse for NPOY is very bold, but I guess that's the point of a dark horse. He made honorable mention or 3rd team all conference last year. I would take Brian Schaefer from OWU over him or Gonzales from DePauw (who admittedly had a soph struggle last year). The OWU v Kenyon games have been highly competitive over the last 2-3 years and just great to watch, especially last year going 1-1-1 in the 3 game series with 2 of those games going to OT. Since 2000, OWU is 15-2-2 against Kenyon including post-season match ups but in the last 5 meetings OWU has only mustered a 2-1-2 record against them. Maybe a signal of change? Not sure but they are always some of my favorite games to watch during the season.
The NCAC is becoming more exciting to watch with OWU, Kenyon, and now DePauw (and Oberlin and Wabash in the last 2 years) really becoming threats. DePauw hosts Loras next fall which should be a great game to see where they stand before having to match up vs Kenyon and OWU in conference play.
I like your pick of Thomas More as a dark horse team. They can play with anyone. I also think John Carroll is on the brink of something. They got hosed last year missing the tournament and had 1 of the best players in the country who didn't have a chance to showcase his ability in the tournament. I think they could have done some damage.
@Midwest, I didn't know DePauw has Loras scheduled. Great job by the Tigers to get a game with Loras. I don't see a similarly tough foe on the schedule for OWU or Kenyon.
2015 is a big one for Amolo. He will have to step up as a leader with the departure of a huge senior group. He did make (generously in my opinion) an All-American team last year. You also may be forgetting his very hot start to last year's season. He tailed off towards the end. He needs to be a difference maker in the biggest games, like against OWU. He's set up to have a big year with dynamic players like Barnes, Eudy, and Glassman around him. Schaefer is an excellent player -- skilled, clutch, gritty, and very competitive. He'll no doubt win his share of accolades. That said, I don't think his ceiling for being ultra-dynamic is as high as for Amolo.
Without going into details, one reason I expect Kenyon to remain a legit contender is because of recruiting. The assistant who came over a couple of years ago (former D1 striker whose father played for Man U) appears to be doing a great job. A big class is coming in and I would expect at least 2-3 studs to emerge from that group. Kenyon is a hot school right now (with most apps and lowest admit rate in its history), and their recent success on the field surely doesn't hurt on the recruiting trail.
I realize this isn't soccer specific, but I felt as though everyone on the boards would appreciate this immensely. Luther College senior Chris Norton walks across the graduation stage after being told he would probably never walk again following a severe spinal cord injury he suffered playing football for the school in 2010. Unbelievably powerful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJJOdjlRbQo
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on May 12, 2015, 11:09:44 PM
My thoughts on preseason rankings...
#1 Wheaton (IL)
Other Top 5...Messiah, Ohio Wesleyan, Tufts (long shot for top 5)
Marshall Hollingsworth of Wheaton (top prospect for National POY)
Please chime in with your thoughts!
I like your top five but given tufts is the defending champ they won't be considered a long shot in the pre season rankings, especially given the fact that they dominated Ohio Wesleyan in the ncaa semi final game last December....
Quote from: oldonionbag on May 27, 2015, 10:34:46 AM
I realize this isn't soccer specific, but I felt as though everyone on the boards would appreciate this immensely. Luther College senior Chris Norton walks across the graduation stage after being told he would probably never walk again following a severe spinal cord injury he suffered playing football for the school in 2010. Unbelievably powerful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJJOdjlRbQo
Nice post...it ain't always about the wins and losses...
1.) Tufts
2.) Wheaton
3.) Messiah
4.) SUNY Oneonta
5.) Ohio Wesleyan
Going against the grain but I feel as if this top 5 could be switched all around. Will be interesting to see where everyone is placed especially with Messiah bowing out in the Elite 8.
Hard to see Messiah dropping out of top 10 given their schedule and reputation, but this is my guess a month into the season factoring in the 8 regions... No shockers really as most are the traditional powers.
1) Wheaton
2) Oneonta St.
3) OWU
4) Trinity
5) F&M
6) Loras
7) Amherst
8) Rutgers-Camden
I could see Williams being ranked #1 in NE region, Montclair #1 in South Atlantic, St. Lawrence #1 in the East, Kenyon #1 in Central, and of course Messiah #1 in Mid-Atlantic.
Franklin & Marshall announces newcomers...
http://www.godiplomats.com/sports/m-soccer/2015-16/releases/20150528s6ojl9 (http://www.godiplomats.com/sports/m-soccer/2015-16/releases/20150528s6ojl9)
OWU announces newcomers...
http://www.battlingbishops.com/news/2015/5/22/MS_05222015.aspx (http://www.battlingbishops.com/news/2015/5/22/MS_05222015.aspx)
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on May 30, 2015, 02:16:43 AM
OWU announces newcomers...
http://www.battlingbishops.com/news/2015/5/22/MS_05222015.aspx (http://www.battlingbishops.com/news/2015/5/22/MS_05222015.aspx)
At least on paper this looks like a strong class for OWU with far more geographic reach than usual, with players from Michigan, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Pennsylvania, Georgia, New Jersey and Virginia, with a few from Ohio and Indiana.
Rival Kenyon supposedly has a large and impressive class coming in as well.
And F&M looks to be solidifying its place as one of the perennial standout programs. Wagner seems to be doing a phenomenal job there.
That Kenyon assistant who is "known for being a World Class Recruiter" and can do no wrong deserves COY already
Well played.
Maybe eventually we'll hear the real story behind the hyper-reactivity to seeing any mention of the school, a full 7-8 months since Corazon made the fatal error of mentioning the school in the same sentence with beloved Williams.
So this is the final schedule that UW Oshkosh will ever play, thoughts?
http://www.uwoshkoshtitans.com/sports/msoc/2015-16/schedule
Oh when the Saints go Marching in...
http://www.saintsathletics.com/news/2015/6/14/MSOC_0614154934.aspx
Saint: It is almost time to fire up the Liberty League board. My take on the St. Lawrence recruiting class, and this is about as uninformed as it gets given that I haven't seen any of these players, is that it would make a great basketball team but it will be interesting how the emphasis on size plays out. If anything can be learned from Tufts championship last year, it is that great size is not necessary to win a championship, nor does it win championships--see Middlebury as a case in point. From a soccer pedigree standpoint St. Lawrence has no USSDA recruits which must be a disappointment since the most impactful freshman from its last class was a USSDA player. Comparing the current recruits of the Liberty League champs with the UAA champs, University of Chicago, it looks if Chicago's class is several notches higher even if several inches shorter. http://athletics.uchicago.edu/sports/msoc/2014-15/releases/20150409fkwld1 St. Lawrence will again be the class of the Liberty League this year but my guess it wants to have more of an impact at the tournament.
Quote from: deutschfan on June 20, 2015, 05:29:53 PM
Saint: It is almost time to fire up the Liberty League board. My take on the St. Lawrence recruiting class, and this is about as uninformed as it gets given that I haven't seen any of these players, is that it would make a great basketball team but it will be interesting how the emphasis on size plays out. If anything can be learned from Tufts championship last year, it is that great size is not necessary to win a championship, nor does it win championships--see Middlebury as a case in point. From a soccer pedigree standpoint St. Lawrence has no USSDA recruits which must be a disappointment since the most impactful freshman from its last class was a USSDA player. Comparing the current recruits of the Liberty League champs with the UAA champs, University of Chicago, it looks if Chicago's class is several notches higher even if several inches shorter. http://athletics.uchicago.edu/sports/msoc/2014-15/releases/20150409fkwld1 St. Lawrence will again be the class of the Liberty League this year but my guess it wants to have more of an impact at the tournament.
Tufts was big where it counted...the two center backs. It was the crafty midfield that propelled them. I think only one was close to 6 feet... The attacking center midfielder..who played much smaller with good foot work. There are many d1 and d3 teams who like size and speed. Some big teams are boring and play very ugly soccer...some are good and are hard to score on... I think it is the combination that is key...
Really try not to comment on SLU besides observations more so than analysis.
As most (all) of us have beens, I find my views are overly tainted by my love.
I will say, at St. Lawrence size is not appreciated more than skill.
Lets not get into comparing conferences or the have beens from NESCAC will come on and rip us both a new one :)
As for the Liberty League, you are correct, I think we should wait till summer on that thread.
The League lost some alltime greats.
Beek was a throwback UCAA striker who went from a Thierry (98') and mellowed into a Forlan ('10) by his senior year.
RPI Graduated a pair of Seniors that were the heart and soul of their program
The league also lost last seasons LL Tournament MVP who was a quiet assassin all 4 years in college.
Isn't tomorrow Summer, let the games begin.
Quote from: deutschfan on June 20, 2015, 05:29:53 PM
From a soccer pedigree standpoint St. Lawrence has no USSDA recruits which must be a disappointment since the most impactful freshman from its last class was a USSDA player.
Two of the St. Lawrence recruits have USSDA experience, one with BW Gottschee and one with Beachside.
Saint--despite your obvious loyalties I have found your analysis helpful and impartial. From a national perspective hopefully the Liberty League can get at least a couple teams into the tournament this year.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on May 28, 2015, 10:39:57 AM
Hard to see Messiah dropping out of top 10 given their schedule and reputation, but this is my guess a month into the season factoring in the 8 regions... No shockers really as most are the traditional powers.
1) Wheaton
2) Oneonta St.
3) OWU
4) Trinity
5) F&M
6) Loras
7) Amherst
8) Rutgers-Camden
I could see Williams being ranked #1 in NE region, Montclair #1 in South Atlantic, St. Lawrence #1 in the East, Kenyon #1 in Central, and of course Messiah #1 in Mid-Atlantic.
I'd drop Amherst out of the top 8. They tied 3 of their last 4 games is conf and national tourny's. They could not create separation from above average teams. So I would drop them out and place Messiah in the top 8. The only other question mark I see in your list is Rutgers-Camden. Not sure they'll have it after they struggled last season with 8 losses and not winning their conf.
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on June 26, 2015, 10:04:46 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on May 28, 2015, 10:39:57 AM
Hard to see Messiah dropping out of top 10 given their schedule and reputation, but this is my guess a month into the season factoring in the 8 regions... No shockers really as most are the traditional powers.
1) Wheaton
2) Oneonta St.
3) OWU
4) Trinity
5) F&M
6) Loras
7) Amherst
8) Rutgers-Camden
I could see Williams being ranked #1 in NE region, Montclair #1 in South Atlantic, St. Lawrence #1 in the East, Kenyon #1 in Central, and of course Messiah #1 in Mid-Atlantic.
I'd drop Amherst out of the top 8. They tied 3 of their last 4 games is conf and national tourny's. They could not create separation from above average teams. So I would drop them out and place Messiah in the top 8. The only other question mark I see in your list is Rutgers-Camden. Not sure they'll have it after they struggled last season with 8 losses and not winning their conf.
I do have one more question mark on this list and that's Wheaton. While they arguably may have some of the best talent in country, they have a new completely unproven coach in Jake DeClute. DeClute's only stint as a college soccer coach (that I could find) was for five years at Gordon where his winning percentage was an unimpressive 48%. His best result ever in his tenure at Gordon was a one time conf runner up. The coach before him (Berthoud) had a 55% winning percentage. And of course the coach after him (Pottteiger) has a 77% winning percentage in his first two years (including the program's first win in the national tournament). Still further, DeClute's 48% winning percentage falls well short of the program's historical all time winning percentage of 59%. Some out there may have more insight on him, but looking strictly at the numbers, he appears to be a question mark as a skipper at this point. Time will tell what he is able to do with all that talent at Wheaton.
Rutgers-Newark, a team on the rise the past couple season, has released their schedule:
Article: http://rutgersnewarkathletics.com/news/2015/6/22/MSOC_0622155331.aspx
Schedule: http://rutgersnewarkathletics.com/schedule.aspx?path=msoc
Beyond the NJAC slate they have the following noteworthy non-conference matches:
SUNY Cortland (16-5-1) - SUNYAC runner-up, NCAA Sweet 16
Stevens Tech (14-4-2) - Empire 8 champs, NCAA 2nd Rnd
Rochester (10-5-4) - NCAA 2nd Rnd (elim. on PKs)
Merchant Marine (10-7-3) - Landmark runner-up (PK loss in final)
NYU (11-7-1)
Johns Hopkins (9-7-2)
That combined with conference rivals Montclair St., Rutgers-Camden, et.al. should make for a pretty tough schedule.
D3SW - I know all three of the coaches you mentioned in your post. They're all quality individuals and have their own strengths and weaknesses. Don't we all. Speaking specifically about Jake. I think you raise a legitimate question. His results at Gordon were mixed, he had some successes, but he never got them to a place where they could compete for the tournament every year. He brought in Matt Horth who is now having a fantastic professional career in Atlanta and other places.....even had a cup of coffee with the Revolution. He brought in Andrew Vandervort who was a first team all-American a couple years back. I think Jake deserves credit for building a decent foundation for what's going on at Gordon right now. Jake is a solid, soft-spoken, high character guy.
I would not characterize him as a transformative figure however. Somebody who's going to, by sheer force of will, take a program to the next level. Potteiger is very much that type of guy. The good news is I don't think that's needed a place like Wheaton. They can recruit from anywhere in the country and even the rest of the world. They are historically one of the best two or three programs in division three soccer. They aspire to, and believe they should be where Messiah is. If they don't go deep into the tournament every year, the alumni especially, consider it a failure. That creates considerable pressure and expectations for anybody who's coaching there......
Oneonta State's schedule: http://www.oneontaathletics.com/schedule.aspx?path=msoc&
Besides SUNYAC rivals like Cortland St., Brockport St., Plattsburg St., etc., their non-conference slate is very solid, and all the more so given they have to go on the road for all their toughest opponents:
A - Montclair St. (17-5-0) - NJAC Champs, NCAA 1st Rnd loss
A - Williams (8-6-2) - NESCAC
A - RPI (12-4-3) - Liberty League 2nd Place
A - Morrisville St. (16-3-1) - NEAC Champs, NCAA 2nd Rnd (1-0 loss at Messiah)
A - Lycoming (15-3-3) - Commonwealth 2nd Place
A - Vassar (11-6-2) - Liberty League 3rd Place
They will only be at home for two games (their own Mayor's Cup tournament) in September, hitting the road for seven games. That's followed by six straight home games in three weeks (mostly SUNYAC games) to open October, closing out the regular season with two road SUNYAC games and a trip to Lycoming. Interesting schedule.
Quote from: 4231CenterBack on June 27, 2015, 11:33:48 AM
D3SW - I know all three of the coaches you mentioned in your post. They're all quality individuals and have their own strengths and weaknesses. Don't we all. Speaking specifically about Jake. I think you raise a legitimate question. His results at Gordon were mixed, he had some successes, but he never got them to a place where they could compete for the tournament every year. He brought in Matt Horth who is now having a fantastic professional career in Atlanta and other places.....even had a cup of coffee with the Revolution. He brought in Andrew Vandervort who was a first team all-American a couple years back. I think Jake deserves credit for building a decent foundation for what's going on at Gordon right now. Jake is a solid, soft-spoken, high character guy.
I would not characterize him as a transformative figure however. Somebody who's going to, by sheer force of will, take a program to the next level. Potteiger is very much that type of guy. The good news is I don't think that's needed a place like Wheaton. They can recruit from anywhere in the country and even the rest of the world. They are historically one of the best two or three programs in division three soccer. They aspire to, and believe they should be where Messiah is. If they don't go deep into the tournament every year, the alumni especially, consider it a failure. That creates considerable pressure and expectations for anybody who's coaching there......
Great insightful post. A few comments...
There was a one year coach who served between DeClute and Potteiger at Gordon. The Gordon program suffered quite badly that year. So there was no momentum at all when Potteiger took control. But I think you are absolutely correct that Potteiger is a transformative coach. I have no doubt that program will continue to rise.
I have had the privilege to see Wheaton play numerous times in the past several years. Wow - some tremendous talent. But it always seemed to me that something was lacking..systemically missing. They play at an incredibly frantic pace on their artificial turf field. But as fast as they play, there just doesn't seem to be clear focus to it. Not sure I'd place them in the top three D3 programs historically. Sure over the past 15 seasons they have made it to the Final 4 twice. In 2006, losing soundly to Messiah 3-0. and of course we all saw what happened last season when they hit the Tufts buzzsaw. In those same past 15 seasons, Messiah has been to the championship final 10 times and has won every one of those games (10X National Champions). While Wheaton is a program consistently with a ton of talent (and I really like their team), and they may deeply desire to be where Messiah is...it looks to me like they have a quite a ways to go before they can expect to be considered in that rarified air.
And I also do agree that Wheaton alumni do put a lot of pressure on the program...with very high expectations. And with the talent they have returning, including Marshall Hollingsworth (top prospect for NPOY), I think there are very high expectations for the team this season. It will be interesting to see how DeClute handles it in his first year at the helm. I wish him and his team the very best and I will be watching.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on June 28, 2015, 07:53:10 AM
Oneonta State's schedule: http://www.oneontaathletics.com/schedule.aspx?path=msoc&
Besides SUNYAC rivals like Cortland St., Brockport St., Plattsburg St., etc., their non-conference slate is very solid, and all the more so given they have to go on the road for all their toughest opponents:
A - Montclair St. (17-5-0) - NJAC Champs, NCAA 1st Rnd loss
A - Williams (8-6-2) - NESCAC
A - RPI (12-4-3) - Liberty League 2nd Place
A - Morrisville St. (16-3-1) - NEAC Champs, NCAA 2nd Rnd (1-0 loss at Messiah)
A - Lycoming (15-3-3) - Commonwealth 2nd Place
A - Vassar (11-6-2) - Liberty League 3rd Place
They will only be at home for two games (their own Mayor's Cup tournament) in September, hitting the road for seven games. That's followed by six straight home games in three weeks (mostly SUNYAC games) to open October, closing out the regular season with two road SUNYAC games and a trip to Lycoming. Interesting schedule.
I'm sure this will draw some ire from the Wheaton clan but that semi final result was against the run of play. I watched the game and it was a disaster of a ref job with the coup de grace the disallowed goal that would have ended the game. Strong returning cast and I'm sure they are a little fired up. No bone to pick, I'm a Nescac guy but hot-damn that team played well.
Quote from: WilltheMan on June 29, 2015, 01:33:19 PMI'm sure this will draw some ire from the Wheaton clan but that semi final result was against the run of play. I watched the game and it was a disaster of a ref job with the coup de grace the disallowed goal that would have ended the game. Strong returning cast and I'm sure they are a little fired up. No bone to pick, I'm a Nescac guy but hot-damn that team played well.
I totally agree that Oneonta was very good last year and quite dangerous in that semifinal. But in regulation (90 min.), Wheaton still somehow got off 17 shots (to Oneonta's 4), 6 SOG (vs. 4), so saying they won against the run of play may be stretching it. And as to the disallowed goal, a photographer perfectly captured the Wheaton goalkeeper getting two hands on the ball before the Oneonta player's foot struck the ball. Whether the ball came loose in the fraction of a second between when the photo was taken and the Oneonta player struck the ball, I don't know.
from http://d3soccer.com/notables/2014/12/NCAA_Semi_Mens
(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fd3soccer.com%2Fimages%2F2014%2FOneonta-Wheaton-disallowed-goal.JPG&hash=fc770fb13abe8891d11b6ad22ce18084ddbfde83)
Finally, you are correct that Oneonta returns most of the squad that had them on the brink of the national title game. On paper, they certainly should be in the mix again.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on June 29, 2015, 03:13:53 PM
Quote from: WilltheMan on June 29, 2015, 01:33:19 PMI'm sure this will draw some ire from the Wheaton clan but that semi final result was against the run of play. I watched the game and it was a disaster of a ref job with the coup de grace the disallowed goal that would have ended the game. Strong returning cast and I'm sure they are a little fired up. No bone to pick, I'm a Nescac guy but hot-damn that team played well.
I totally agree that Oneonta was very good last year and quite dangerous in that semifinal. But in regulation (90 min.), Wheaton still somehow got off 17 shots (to Oneonta's 4), 6 SOG (vs. 4), so saying they won against the run of play may be stretching it. And as to the disallowed goal, a photographer perfectly captured the Wheaton goalkeeper getting two hands on the ball before the Oneonta player's foot struck the ball. Whether the ball came loose in the fraction of a second between when the photo was taken and the Oneonta player struck the ball, I don't know.
from http://d3soccer.com/notables/2014/12/NCAA_Semi_Mens
(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fd3soccer.com%2Fimages%2F2014%2FOneonta-Wheaton-disallowed-goal.JPG&hash=fc770fb13abe8891d11b6ad22ce18084ddbfde83)
Finally, you are correct that Oneonta returns most of the squad that had them on the brink of the national title game. On paper, they certainly should be in the mix again.
I wasn't looking to rehash-- we watched a tape after game, just my opinion that a shot from 30 that the goalie picks up might be less dangerous that one that clips of the post from 12 and doesn't count as a shot on. If you are curious find a tape and watch it. Oneonta could/should have had 6 goals. The PK was a joke, couple of off sides that weren't negating breakaway's really, truly, a disaster. I would want to go look but I think that ball squirted away(not 100% sure).....and it doesn't matter, they should just be good again, that's all. Byrne had class after, but it must have been difficult.
(modified by GS for formatting)
"Sure over the past 15 seasons they have made it to the Final 4 twice."
Actually, that would be three final fours Wheaton has made in the last 15 years.
And more impressive 3 Finals in the last 15 years.
In 1999 They hosted and played in the final game
I think they might have done the same in '06
And ofcoarse a very good run last season.
That's added to two stars on their chest from 85 and 97.
The boyz from PA can never be counted out, but I tell you D3 is more open now than it has been in the last 20 years.
Not since the Coach Russo's boyz went all the way in 95 has the soccer throne been this open.
Messiah is strong, but no longer inspire the fear they once did.
Tufts, partially responsible for the sentence above, is a hungry new power who I do not think will fade.
They seem to be the type of program that a Championship will only propel to greater heights. Kinda like it did for the team above.
Amherst and Oneonta players can cement their legacies by bringing their school that first title, while the talent is there.
Loras and Stevens too can turn potential and class into rings.
Trinity Tx brings it year in year out and we have a couple great traditional powers losing the coaches that built their programs.
Saint, excellent analysis!
Quote from: 4231CenterBack on June 27, 2015, 11:33:48 AM
. . . Wheaton. They can recruit from anywhere in the country and even the rest of the world. They are historically one of the best two or three programs in division three soccer. They aspire to, and believe they should be where Messiah is. If they don't go deep into the tournament every year, the alumni especially, consider it a failure. . . .
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on June 28, 2015, 06:05:02 PM
. . . Not sure I'd place them in the top three D3 programs historically. Sure over the past 15 seasons they have made it to the Final 4 twice. In 2006, losing soundly to Messiah 3-0. and of course we all saw what happened last season when they hit the Tufts buzzsaw. In those same past 15 seasons, Messiah has been to the championship final 10 times and has won every one of those games (10X National Champions). . . .
D3soccerwatcher, I think it would be very hard not to have Wheaton (Ill.) in the top 3 all-time. Only Ohio Wesleyan can match/top Wheaton's consistency across all 41 years of Division III's existence. Take a look at their resume below.
I think Messiah, Ohio Wesleyan, and Wheaton (Ill.) are the best bets for the top 3.
Messiah makes the cut on shear dominace over the last 15 years combined with their pair of Final Fours runs in the 80's despite only joining D-III eight years after its inception.
Ohio Wesleyan and
Wheaton (Ill.) have been Top 25 programs practically the entire history of Division III and the leaders in NCAA tournament appearances.
UNC-Greensboro was dominant for a seven-year period (1981-1988) but left D-III at that point meaning they have not been a D-III member for well over half of its history.
UC San Diego has a stronger case because they hung around a bit longer before moving to D-II, being a top program for about 15 years (1983-1999) before their departure, but other programs that have remained in D-III have now matched their success numerically.
Williams would probably have a strong case for the top 3 if not for the NESCAC's ban on post-season play up until 1993. And if this discussion was being held 10 or more years ago,
Rowan would be in the top 3, but their drastic decline in the new mellenuim has seen them fall well behind Wheaton and Ohio Wesleyan.
Those are the contenders, and to me it's clear Wheaton is in the top 3. An NCAA D-III Finalist in four different decades; two titles; top 3 in all-time D-III tournament appearances, wins, Sweet 16's, and Elite 8's; two of the five longest D-III unbeaten streaks coming in different decades; and an .750 overall winning pct. across 41 years.
WHEATON (ILL.) MEN'S SOCCER - DIVISION III ERA (1974 - 2014)Overall Record: 632-188-68 (.750)
NCAA Appearances: 35 - second only to Ohio Wesleyan's 37 years participating; third best is 24 appearances (eleven less than Wheaton) by Messiah, Rowan, and Elizabethtown.
NCAA Wins: 48 - third most behind Messiah (74) and Ohio Wesleyan (61); ahead of Williams (36) and Trinity-TX (36).
NCAA Winning Percentage: .604 over 82 tournament games played
NCAA Sweet 16's: 23 (spread across 39 years) - second most behind Ohio Wesleyan (28) and one ahead of Messiah (22).
NCAA Elite 8's: 13 (spread across 39 years) - third most after Messiah (17) and Ohio Wesleyan (16); ahead of Williams (11).
NCAA Final Fours: 6 - only three schools have more: Messiah (14), Ohio Wesleyan (10), and Rowan (7).
NCAA Finalist: 5 times in four different decades spanning 31 years - only Messiah (10) has been to the title game more; Rowan's and Ohio Wesleyan's four title game appearances spanned 22 years.
Championships: 2 - only four schools have more: one is Messiah (10), UNC-Greensboro (5) and UC-San Diego (3) left D-III a long time ago, and Babson (3) won all of their titles by 1980.
Unbeaten Streaks: 66 games (1996-98), longest all-time in men's collegiate soccer; and 39 games (1984-85), fifth longest in men's D-III history.
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on June 26, 2015, 10:04:46 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on May 28, 2015, 10:39:57 AM
Hard to see Messiah dropping out of top 10 given their schedule and reputation, but this is my guess a month into the season factoring in the 8 regions... No shockers really as most are the traditional powers.
1) Wheaton
2) Oneonta St.
3) OWU
4) Trinity
5) F&M
6) Loras
7) Amherst
8) Rutgers-Camden
I could see Williams being ranked #1 in NE region, Montclair #1 in South Atlantic, St. Lawrence #1 in the East, Kenyon #1 in Central, and of course Messiah #1 in Mid-Atlantic.
I'd drop Amherst out of the top 8. They tied 3 of their last 4 games is conf and national tourny's. They could not create separation from above average teams. So I would drop them out and place Messiah in the top 8. The only other question mark I see in your list is Rutgers-Camden. Not sure they'll have it after they struggled last season with 8 losses and not winning their conf.
I put Rutgers-Camden that high because their schedule is not as strong as previous years and they should be competing for the #1 slot in the South-Atlantic region. They play Salisbury the 3rd game of the season and Christopher Newport at home the 5th game, so early positive results would increase their chances for that ranking.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on June 28, 2015, 07:53:10 AM
Oneonta State's schedule: http://www.oneontaathletics.com/schedule.aspx?path=msoc&
Besides SUNYAC rivals like Cortland St., Brockport St., Plattsburg St., etc., their non-conference slate is very solid, and all the more so given they have to go on the road for all their toughest opponents:
A - Montclair St. (17-5-0) - NJAC Champs, NCAA 1st Rnd loss
A - Williams (8-6-2) - NESCAC
A - RPI (12-4-3) - Liberty League 2nd Place
A - Morrisville St. (16-3-1) - NEAC Champs, NCAA 2nd Rnd (1-0 loss at Messiah)
A - Lycoming (15-3-3) - Commonwealth 2nd Place
A - Vassar (11-6-2) - Liberty League 3rd Place
They will only be at home for two games (their own Mayor's Cup tournament) in September, hitting the road for seven games. That's followed by six straight home games in three weeks (mostly SUNYAC games) to open October, closing out the regular season with two road SUNYAC games and a trip to Lycoming. Interesting schedule.
This is a challenging schedule but not quite as challenging as Brandeis. Coach Byrne is always begging coaches to play hence all the road contests. Some coaches have a reputation of not shying away like Sullivan(Williams), Clinton(RPI) , Montclair and Vassar. RPI will play 10 men deep and try to counter on any chance they get. Most good teams would avoid this circumstance at all costs because they see enough of it in their own leagues. Surprisingly, this does not bother Byrne. I must say the SUNYAC is a bit weaker than it was 10 years ago as Plattsburg and Fredonia have dropped off considerably so he is confident he can win his league and therefore is unafraid to play anyone anywhere. Keene St used to do this quite often when they would dominate the Little East and would routinely play Amherst, Williams, Middlebury, WNEC, Babson,Wheaton, etc..
Seeing Ohio Northern's name show up on Babson's and Wheaton-MA's schedules over in the New England forum, made me curious to check the Polar Bear's full schedule.
Significant non-conference opponents:
9/5 (A) Wheaton-MA (17-4-2) - NEWMAC #1 seed; NCAA 2nd Rnd loss to Tufts
9/6 (A) Babson (17-6-0) - NEWMAC champs; NCAA 1st Rnd loss
9/12 (H) Brockport State (10-4-6) - SUNYAC 3rd Place; NCAA 1st Rnd loss
9/16 (H) Ohio Wesleyan (17-5-4) - NCAC #1 seed and champs; NCAA Final Four
9/19 (A) Case Western Reserve (8-6-4)
That's a very solid out-of-conference slate. OAC play includes John Carroll who was good last year but got snubbed by the the NCAA committee. Ohio Northern had an off year in 2014 and failed to win the OAC after 4 straight conference titles and 6 in previous 8 years.
You beat me to this, FW. I thought the same thing when I saw the Polar Bears could leave New England with two losses. Will be interesting to see a perennial Great Lakes standout face off against two strong New England foes. Ohio Northern handled Williams 3 years ago in the NCAA semis before getting crushed by Messiah in the final. Would love to see more of these types of match-ups in the New England area. Smart move by ONU in the sense that if they lose in the OAC tourney (usually a one bid league) they will still have a shot at a bid if they do well with that non-conference slate.
With all the talk in this forum about recruiting classes, what exactly constitutes a strong recruiting class? Is it obtaining a certain number of USSDA players? Bringing in players from all over the country? Is it having a large class based on sheer numbers?
Obviously I realize that a strong class cannot be truly evaluated until the players are put on display during the season, but I'm just wondering how to pre-judge a recruiting class before any games have been played.
Also below is a link to the USSDA commits on signing day, you may be able to see if your school recruited any of these players by searching for your schools name. I know that not all schools publish a "recruiting class press release," so this may be of interest and/or help.
http://www.soccerwire.com/news/clubs/youth-boys/ussda-college-commitments/
Chelsea, thanks for that link.
Counted 5 for Kenyon. 1 from NY, 2 from Washington state, 1 from NC, and 1 from TX.
Correction -- 6 for Kenyon (3 from Washington state).
Quote from: NCAC New England on July 04, 2015, 05:28:04 PM
Chelsea, thanks for that link.
Counted 5 for Kenyon. 1 from NY, 2 from Washington state, 1 from NC, and 1 from TX.
Correction -- 6 for Kenyon (3 from Washington state).
Unreal. 6 Academy commits for a D3 school in one recruiting class is unheard of. Not all clubs have reported, so it is possible there are more.
Some may recall, I did sort of call this about a year ago. My prediction wasn't so popular back then. :)
Not that uncommon anymore for stronger programs...Tufts has been getting many ussda recruits over the past few years....
I believe the number of USSDA players should be the first metric in evaluating a class. The divide between high school and Academy keeps getting greater as the Academy starts grabbing younger players and the players realize that fewer and fewer coaches are attending high school or non-Academy club games. Geographics is also important. Some soccer rich states like CA, TX, and FL do not have a large number of D3 programs. If you look at Mt. Saint Vincent's roster for example they have recruited a large number of quality players from CA. Given its relative obscurity, that is great work by the coaching staff. Finally, while very few D3 recruits have Top Drawer rankings, some do and the coaches covet them.
Quote from: deutschfan on July 05, 2015, 10:52:19 AM
I believe the number of USSDA players should be the first metric in evaluating a class. The divide between high school and Academy keeps getting greater as the Academy starts grabbing younger players and the players realize that fewer and fewer coaches are attending high school or non-Academy club games. Geographics is also important. Some soccer rich states like CA, TX, and FL do not have a large number of D3 programs. If you look at Mt. Saint Vincent's roster for example they have recruited a large number of quality players from CA. Given its relative obscurity, that is great work by the coaching staff. Finally, while very few D3 recruits have Top Drawer rankings, some do and the coaches covet them.
It's certainly a good starting point for analysis purposes....yes, many good players are not ussda players, but on a general analysis basis, I have to agree it should be the first metric...
It's important to look not only at the number of DAP players a school brings in, but also the quality of those players. A closer look at the Kenyon group, for example, shows that only 1 of the 6 players was a starter on his DAP team and 2 of the 3 players from WA were not even on the roster at the end of the season. I understand that reserves on DAP teams can be very strong players, but they may not have the same impact that a group of starters might have. Nevertheless, it will be exciting to see the recruiting efforts of Kenyon and other schools that landed multiple DAP players come to fruition.
Quote from: Ommadawn on July 05, 2015, 06:36:38 PM
It's important to look not only at the number of DAP players a school brings in, but also the quality of those players. A closer look at the Kenyon group, for example, shows that only 1 of the 6 players was a starter on his DAP team and 2 of the 3 players from WA were not even on the roster at the end of the season. I understand that reserves on DAP teams can be very strong players, but they may not have the same impact that a group of starters might have. Nevertheless, it will be exciting to see the recruiting efforts of Kenyon and other schools that landed multiple DAP players come to fruition.
Couple of thoughts...
I'm one who thinks the emphasis on the USSDA, as applied to D3, is very overrated. The vast majority of the top-tier USSDA players will go D1. If academic prestige is an issue, there are D1 options for that type of student-athlete. This means that for the pool of USSDA players strongly considering D3 the vast majority of them will significantly overlap with the top end of non-USSDA players. There will always be an exception or two, but as a rule of thumb top end DAP players who can be impact players at a top 50 D1 program won't be choosing a D3.
The article that was linked suggests that the clubs themselves (and not the individual players) put out their lists of college commitments. What is pointed out about the Kenyon recruits above likely parallels USSDA D3 recruits in general. All 3 of the Wash State players listed were on the roster (and did play) in the Fall of 2014. We don't know if one of them suffered an injury, or if one or more decided not to play in the Spring after wrapping up a college choice. I did notice that the two not on the Crossfire roster later in the season had played for cross-town rival Seattle Sounders at U15/U16. Perhaps they moved due to playing time issues, but they were not new to playing at the USSDA level.
I'm sure the list in the article is far from comprehensive. That said, 6 is still 6. I don't believe any other school had more than 2.
And in anticipation of jabs about the Kenyon assistant coach, he is a smart, engaging guy. He also was a NCAA Division 1 striker whose father played professionally for Manchester United.
Quote from: NCAC New England on July 06, 2015, 11:30:23 AM
Quote from: Ommadawn on July 05, 2015, 06:36:38 PM
It's important to look not only at the number of DAP players a school brings in, but also the quality of those players. A closer look at the Kenyon group, for example, shows that only 1 of the 6 players was a starter on his DAP team and 2 of the 3 players from WA were not even on the roster at the end of the season. I understand that reserves on DAP teams can be very strong players, but they may not have the same impact that a group of starters might have. Nevertheless, it will be exciting to see the recruiting efforts of Kenyon and other schools that landed multiple DAP players come to fruition.
Couple of thoughts...
I'm one who thinks the emphasis on the USSDA, as applied to D3, is very overrated. The vast majority of the top-tier USSDA players will go D1. If academic prestige is an issue, there are D1 options for that type of student-athlete. This means that for the pool of USSDA players strongly considering D3 the vast majority of them will significantly overlap with the top end of non-USSDA players. There will always be an exception or two, but as a rule of thumb top end DAP players who can be impact players at a top 50 D1 program won't be choosing a D3.
The article that was linked suggests that the clubs themselves (and not the individual players) put out their lists of college commitments. What is pointed out about the Kenyon recruits above likely parallels USSDA D3 recruits in general. All 3 of the Wash State players listed were on the roster (and did play) in the Fall of 2014. We don't know if one of them suffered an injury, or if one or more decided not to play in the Spring after wrapping up a college choice. I did notice that the two not on the Crossfire roster later in the season had played for cross-town rival Seattle Sounders at U15/U16. Perhaps they moved due to playing time issues, but they were not new to playing at the USSDA level.
I'm sure the list in the article is far from comprehensive. That said, 6 is still 6. I don't believe any other school had more than 2.
And in anticipation of jabs about the Kenyon assistant coach, he is a smart, engaging guy. He also was a NCAA Division 1 striker whose father played professionally for Manchester United.
I would agree completely with this post. Remember also that the age group coming in still grew in the game as the USDAA was coming into existence. These lads will still compete evenly as they have since they were 12, labels aside. As a side note, I am surprised looking at the current U18 and younger players in the DAP--- the play doesn't seem as good as the past few years. One national level trainer I respect suggested to me that there is less depth. The high level club system has been hurt badly by DAP causing less young players to get better training. Where the original DAP teams could just pick the cream of a broad developed group that had sorted itself out by U16/U18 the piping of younger kids is hurting the overall pool. The gap my be growing between DAP and non and indeed this may be a way to measure incoming classes more and more in the future. I fear the gap is growing for the wrong reasons, ah the law of unintended consequences.
Quote from: NCAC New England on July 06, 2015, 11:30:23 AM
Quote from: Ommadawn on July 05, 2015, 06:36:38 PM
It's important to look not only at the number of DAP players a school brings in, but also the quality of those players. A closer look at the Kenyon group, for example, shows that only 1 of the 6 players was a starter on his DAP team and 2 of the 3 players from WA were not even on the roster at the end of the season. I understand that reserves on DAP teams can be very strong players, but they may not have the same impact that a group of starters might have. Nevertheless, it will be exciting to see the recruiting efforts of Kenyon and other schools that landed multiple DAP players come to fruition.
Couple of thoughts...
I'm one who thinks the emphasis on the USSDA, as applied to D3, is very overrated. The vast majority of the top-tier USSDA players will go D1. If academic prestige is an issue, there are D1 options for that type of student-athlete. This means that for the pool of USSDA players strongly considering D3 the vast majority of them will significantly overlap with the top end of non-USSDA players. There will always be an exception or two, but as a rule of thumb top end DAP players who can be impact players at a top 50 D1 program won't be choosing a D3.
The article that was linked suggests that the clubs themselves (and not the individual players) put out their lists of college commitments. What is pointed out about the Kenyon recruits above likely parallels USSDA D3 recruits in general. All 3 of the Wash State players listed were on the roster (and did play) in the Fall of 2014. We don't know if one of them suffered an injury, or if one or more decided not to play in the Spring after wrapping up a college choice. I did notice that the two not on the Crossfire roster later in the season had played for cross-town rival Seattle Sounders at U15/U16. Perhaps they moved due to playing time issues, but they were not new to playing at the USSDA level.
I'm sure the list in the article is far from comprehensive. That said, 6 is still 6. I don't believe any other school had more than 2.
And in anticipation of jabs about the Kenyon assistant coach, he is a smart, engaging guy. He also was a NCAA Division 1 striker whose father played professionally for Manchester United.
I know of at least 3 ussda players who could have played D1 and were offered spots but chose a DIII school for soccer. They are still playing and have done extremely well...
Being a fan of Wheaton, Elliot Borge and Marshall Hollingsworth from the Chicago area were recruited for D1. Tufts also has a ussda kid from Chicago that was in the same boat.
Quote from: Nutmeg on July 06, 2015, 07:17:03 PM
Being a fan of Wheaton, Elliot Borge and Marshall Hollingsworth from the Chicago area were recruited for D1. Tufts also has a ussda kid from Chicago that was in the same boat.
You also can't forget about D1 transfers that play on good D3 teams. I'm not too sure how many D1 players transfer to D3 each year but those players were also obviously recruited for D1 teams. That's not saying that all D1 transfers make the sort of impact at the D3 level that might be expected but it's still something to note.
Wheaton (Ill), Messiah, Calvin, etc are a little different in that they may attract some D1 talent because of a higher calling. That said, there is a huge difference between getting offers at bottom 150 D1s where a kid is going to fighting for his life for serious playing time, and going to a top 50 D1 as a legitimate impact player. I'd be curious to know where the Tufts Chicago-area kid drew real D1 interest. If he was that good, one would think Duke, Stanford, UVA, UNC, Michigan, Notre Dame, Boston College, etc would be reasonable options from an academic point of view. Transfers from D1 to D3 I think sort of speak for themselves.
And of course I forgot about the Ivies. A kid who qualifies academically and believes he can be a starter at an Ivy rarely is going to pick even the most academically prestigious D3s. How many D3 players might arguably make a D1 roster (with marginal prospects for real playing time) is of course an entirely different question.
Quote from: NCAC New England on July 06, 2015, 07:52:18 PM
Wheaton (Ill), Messiah, Calvin, etc are a little different in that they may attract some D1 talent because of a higher calling. That said, there is a huge difference between getting offers at bottom 150 D1s where a kid is going to fighting for his life for serious playing time, and going to a top 50 D1 as a legitimate impact player. I'd be curious to know where the Tufts Chicago-area kid drew real D1 interest. If he was that good, one would think Duke, Stanford, UVA, UNC, Michigan, Notre Dame, Boston College, etc would be reasonable options from an academic point of view. Transfers from D1 to D3 I think sort of speak for themselves.
And of course I forgot about the Ivies. A kid who qualifies academically and believes he can be a starter at an Ivy rarely is going to pick even the most academically prestigious D3s. How many D3 players might arguably make a D1 roster (with marginal prospects for real playing time) is of course an entirely different question.
I was replying to your statement that a vast majority of ussda players go D1. Now, I am confused because I think you have changed your standard bringing in the bottom of D1 programs for comparison. Notwithstanding, kids often get D1 offers where coaches say they may not play until junior or senior year. That often happens with top D1 programs when u have honest coaches. Now, comes along a Bowdoin, Amherst or Tufts and the coach says you'll play all 4 years. Do u go to Virginia or North Carolina or Dartmouth and wait to get a possible chance to play or do u go to Amherst and play all 4 years. This is how those choices are made...
Nutmeg, please re-read what I posted. I referred to the vast majority of top-tier USSDA players going D1. Regarding the rest I think you may be confused. The vast majority do not turn down legit opportunities to play D1 at academic powerhouse schools in favor of D3s. This may be true for a few who are offered a roster spot at a D1 but minimal chances to actually play. The choices tend to even out and may result in going D3 when the alternative choice is a lower end D1 (and by lower that could be either athletically or academically or both). In short, top-tier USSDA players who will actually be real players at the UVAs, Dukes, and Notre Dames aren't going D3. And, FWIW, players who are told they won't be playing until junior or senior most likely won't be playing, period. By that time more high level recruits have come in. If you're not getting serious time by sophomore year (and this applies to many D3s as well), you're most likely out of luck.
NCAC, I agree with your points..... :-*. Do u think middle tier ussda players are a notch higher in terms of quality than top non-ussda players?
Quote from: Nutmeg on July 07, 2015, 07:21:38 PM
NCAC, I agree with your points..... :-*. Do u think middle tier ussda players are a notch higher in terms of quality than top non-ussda players?
Yes, I do, as a generalization, and with the caveat that there definitely exceptions. There are excellent players who don't want to give up playing high school soccer, and while I understand the DAP philosophy I think a good number of the mid- to lower tier USSDA players are the losers by the high school rule. Especially for the kind of kids who can be real difference makers at the D3 level, I think high school provides a forum for those players to be leaders and to develop a stronger sense of playing for a real team. And I say that fully admitting that high school play dwarfs in comparison with DAP. There are also location issues. A really good player who lives on Cape Cod, for example, is going to have a difficult time accessing one of the two Mass DAP teams. The older Savonen is a great example of this, and a great example of a non-DAP player becoming an All-American at the D3 level. I'm sure there are many others and it would be interesting to go through the D3 All American teams to see how many were DAP and non-DAP. There are also late bloomers. Some of the kids who have been at the top and in pre-DAP and DAP programs since age 13 or 14 may burn out, and there are certainly examples of less acclaimed non-DAP players who arrive on campus very hungry and who beat out their DAP teammates for playing time. But yes, all that said, DAP/USSDA is obviously the superior venue to play club level soccer.
I think this is going to be a really interesting season, and perhaps the most wide open D3 season in years. Messiah will definitely be in the hunt and a serious title contender, but they won't be a landslide favorite as in recent years. The Tufts story will be interesting. Wheaton and Oneonta will be forces. Amherst and SLU will still be there knocking on the door. Some of us in the East may be sleeping on teams like Loras, Trinity and Whitworth. And then there are teams like F&M, Kenyon, Brandeis, Rochester, etc who have made a name for themselves but still haven't knocked the door down. And then some surprises will emerge, like a Thomas More, maybe a Gordon, maybe a Babson or Wheaton (MA).
One last comment regarding our prior discussion. I suspect that very few D3 coaches worth their salt make any promises about playing or starting for all 4 years to any recruits, which isn't to say that they don't have a pecking order and push hard with admissions for real studs. For one thing, it's just too hard to predict how kids are going to show up in terms of fitness and how they will respond to all that college has to offer (especially socially). In hindsight, and let me admit up front that I was very critical at the time, Shapiro's biggest and most important move may have been putting Santos and Hoppenot on the bench for stretches early in the season. Think about that. Santos was a USSDA player who I am sure is one who could have played D1 and arguably the most talented player ever recruited in Tufts history, and after taking some hits to his pride in his senior season he came up big in the tournament.
The ability of D3 coaches to push for real studs in admissions is one reason I think you will see more mid-quality USSDA players ending up in D3 schools. Unless you are a tier 1 USSDA or national pool player the Ivies, Stanford etc. are not going to bend very much if at all in their admissions standards. Yet, a mid-level fulltime USSDA player can make up a lot of ground with admissions with a D3 coach pulling for them. These players, who may not see professional soccer in their future, may want to become engineers, bankers, doctors or lawyers by obtaining an education at NESCAC or UAA schools, or schools of the likes of MIT, Cal Tech, Hopkins, Swarthmore, Haverford, Pomona, Claremont, Vassar or Carleton. They will use soccer to help them ratchet up the academic quality of the school they attend. Their leverage is greater at the D3 schools given the paucity of USSDA applicants. I am surprised that the top academic D3 programs haven't seen more USSDA players flock to them to date but I believe that is the future. Another reason why more USSDA players will look to D3 schools across the board is the availability of non-athletic scholarship money, but that is a whole different topic.
Quote from: deutschfan on July 07, 2015, 08:58:34 PM
The ability of D3 coaches to push for real studs in admissions is one reason I think you will see more mid-quality USSDA players ending up in D3 schools. Unless you are a tier 1 USSDA or national pool player the Ivies, Stanford etc. are not going to bend very much if at all in their admissions standards. Yet, a mid-level fulltime USSDA player can make up a lot of ground with admissions with a D3 coach pulling for them. These players, who may not see professional soccer in their future, may want to become engineers, bankers, doctors or lawyers by obtaining an education at NESCAC or UAA schools, or schools of the likes of MIT, Cal Tech, Hopkins, Swarthmore, Haverford, Pomona, Claremont, Vassar or Carleton. They will use soccer to help them ratchet up the academic quality of the school they attend. Their leverage is greater at the D3 schools given the paucity of USSDA applicants. I am surprised that the top academic D3 programs haven't seen more USSDA players flock to them to date but I believe that is the future. Another reason why more USSDA players will look to D3 schools across the board is the availability of non-athletic scholarship money, but that is a whole different topic.
I think you're on to something, while noting that the segment of the population seeking college who also care a lot about the prestige of the schools above is significant but limited.
Another possible reason for a trend toward USSDA players looking at D3 schools is that the opportunities for college graduates desirous of playing professional soccer are decreasing rather than increasing due to the proliferation of foreign nationals coming to play professionally in the United States. This is especially true in the MLS, but also can be seen as you look down the rosters of USL teams. Club and high school coaches, and parents, should be counseling players to focus on non-soccer vocations, and the colleges that will further those pursuits, when choosing whether to play D1 or D3.
Speaking of Thomas More, they appear to be beefing up their non-conference slate to perhaps compensate for weak conference affiliation (although they did play Denison, Centre, Transy and DePauw last year, only losing to the latter away).
at Case Western
at Capital
Denison
Centre
at Heidelberg
at Transylvania
DePauw
Will be interesting to see if the D1 transfer pipeline from nearby Northern Kentucky Univ continues.
Quote from: NCAC New England on July 06, 2015, 07:52:18 PM
Wheaton (Ill), Messiah, Calvin, etc are a little different in that they may attract some D1 talent because of a higher calling. That said, there is a huge difference between getting offers at bottom 150 D1s where a kid is going to fighting for his life for serious playing time, and going to a top 50 D1 as a legitimate impact player. I'd be curious to know where the Tufts Chicago-area kid drew real D1 interest. If he was that good, one would think Duke, Stanford, UVA, UNC, Michigan, Notre Dame, Boston College, etc would be reasonable options from an academic point of view. Transfers from D1 to D3 I think sort of speak for themselves.
And of course I forgot about the Ivies. A kid who qualifies academically and believes he can be a starter at an Ivy rarely is going to pick even the most academically prestigious D3s. How many D3 players might arguably make a D1 roster (with marginal prospects for real playing time) is of course an entirely different question.
I don't believe Messiah has any recruits this year out of the USSDA. Looks like all played for their high schools. I think this is a pretty normal occurrence year in and year out at Messiah.
I'm not up on all this academy and club stuff, but just doing a little looking and self-educating, I see that Messiah has an incoming player that played with PA Classics (Ben Haines) and another who played with Albertson SC (Nick West). Both those clubs are listed as USSDA academies.
Last year's incoming class had players from DC United (Josh Bender) and N.C. Fusion (Kirby Robbins). The group entering in 2013 included players from Baltimore Bays (Jacob Bender), DC United (Danny Brandt), FC Dallas (Raul Serrano), FC DELCO (Robby Johnson), and PA Classics (Austin Jeffrey). The group entering in 2012 included players that had spent time with Philadelphia Union (Benji Kennel) and PA Classics (Bryant Meyer).
Now I don't know how much these guys played and at least a couple (maybe more) were not playing with that club the final year before entering Messiah. And I think they all played high school soccer, and from some posts above it sounds like you can't play both high school and USSDA. So do these clubs have their USSDA teams and non-USSDA teams? Like I said, I know next to nothing about youth soccer these days.
Yes, many non-MLS clubs field both USSDA (their best players) and club teams. Much of the identifying/and later, recruiting, happens during U16 USSDA games. Thus, it is not that uncommon for some players to make their college commitment (primarily for the D3 commitments) and then skip playing U18 USSDA altogether during their senior year in order to play high school so just looking at their senior year can be deceptive. Some players game the system, and play high school, then join USSDA mid-season to avoid the no-HS rule. All this stuff and the rules is still evolving ...
I have no idea about the Messiah players, but the USSDA roster/games played/start %/goals is available to the public, so if someone were willing to invest the time, it will not be that difficult to research. Many of the profiles also gives a decent background on the player, which I've always found useful in understanding the player. I'm sure the college coaches are on the USSDA sites constantly, researching and following players.
I personally do not like this shift to USSDA, as the program is designed (National team scouting) for maybe 5% of the players who actually play in USSDA. I believe the true "Academy System" should be limited to the MLS teams and the rest should focus on the holistic approach of developing student athletes. But hey, perhaps it is just me, as the current trend is just the opposite.
Maryville College Commits - http://www.mcscots.com/sports/msoc/2014-15/releases/20150515bmvtkv
Sewanee announces commits - http://sewaneetigers.com/sports/msoc/2015-16/releases/20150603dbjamy
As a child it may sound - romantic? exclusive? elitist? to get a DI scholarship. To parents - forget about it. I love it when I ref youth games and hear parents talk about their kid being on a DI scholarship track - the kid's 9 or 10.
By the time a player gets to age 16-17 they know where they fit in - scholastically, academically, etc. (even if their parents are still clueless). My son talked to several standout athletes from his HS - those who went DI, DII and DIII. The DI students talked of the schedule, commitment ("ownership of your soul") expected - some stayed, some transferred. One girl - had multiple DI offers for volleyball and basketball - chose DIII. For one, she didn't want to chose only one sport. But more importantly, she wanted to be a student athlete have have more control of her time.
And DIII money, for those academically inclined, can be more than many DI athletes get. Another HS teammate was named academy player of the year 2x, had 7 DI offers. He didn't get a "full ride" until his junior year - and still half of that comes from his academic awards.
The player referenced in the article below received 1/12 scholarship to play lacrosse at Ohio St. I have known the boy since he was 8 - he commented his first week at Capital how the food service people greeted him, and how they knew his name after a couple weeks. He had no regrets making the switch (and his financial aid at Cap exceeded that which he got at OSU):
http://columbusfreepress.com/article/why-division-iii-after-flirting-division-i-programs-three-local-lacrosse-players-find-happy
As far as academies go - nationals are this weekend - you can see how many academy teams made it: http://championships.usyouthsoccer.org/2015_national_championships_team_previews/
Also related to academies - on the largest stage - see the article about Barcelona's academy. I think the discussion between "develop or buy" is sliding further towards buy. See the new MLS policy - Targeted Allocation Money: it's all headed in the same direction.
http://www.theguardian.com/football/these-football-times/2015/jul/16/barcelona-la-masia-academy-decline-neymar-pedro
Quote from: Corazon on July 10, 2015, 11:16:42 AM
Yes, many non-MLS clubs field both USSDA (their best players) and club teams. Much of the identifying/and later, recruiting, happens during U16 USSDA games. Thus, it is not that uncommon for some players to make their college commitment (primarily for the D3 commitments) and then skip playing U18 USSDA altogether during their senior year in order to play high school so just looking at their senior year can be deceptive. Some players game the system, and play high school, then join USSDA mid-season to avoid the no-HS rule. All this stuff and the rules is still evolving ...
I have no idea about the Messiah players, but the USSDA roster/games played/start %/goals is available to the public, so if someone were willing to invest the time, it will not be that difficult to research. Many of the profiles also gives a decent background on the player, which I've always found useful in understanding the player. I'm sure the college coaches are on the USSDA sites constantly, researching and following players.
I personally do not like this shift to USSDA, as the program is designed (National team scouting) for maybe 5% of the players who actually play in USSDA. I believe the true "Academy System" should be limited to the MLS teams and the rest should focus on the holistic approach of developing student athletes. But hey, perhaps it is just me, as the current trend is just the opposite.
Do the academies in Europe solely provide soccer training to the kids, or do they provide an educational program to them as well?
Quote from: Joe Wally on July 20, 2015, 12:42:23 PM
Quote from: Corazon on July 10, 2015, 11:16:42 AM
Yes, many non-MLS clubs field both USSDA (their best players) and club teams. Much of the identifying/and later, recruiting, happens during U16 USSDA games. Thus, it is not that uncommon for some players to make their college commitment (primarily for the D3 commitments) and then skip playing U18 USSDA altogether during their senior year in order to play high school so just looking at their senior year can be deceptive. Some players game the system, and play high school, then join USSDA mid-season to avoid the no-HS rule. All this stuff and the rules is still evolving ...
I have no idea about the Messiah players, but the USSDA roster/games played/start %/goals is available to the public, so if someone were willing to invest the time, it will not be that difficult to research. Many of the profiles also gives a decent background on the player, which I've always found useful in understanding the player. I'm sure the college coaches are on the USSDA sites constantly, researching and following players.
I personally do not like this shift to USSDA, as the program is designed (National team scouting) for maybe 5% of the players who actually play in USSDA. I believe the true "Academy System" should be limited to the MLS teams and the rest should focus on the holistic approach of developing student athletes. But hey, perhaps it is just me, as the current trend is just the opposite.
Do the academies in Europe solely provide soccer training to the kids, or do they provide an educational program to them as well?
Depends on the academy. The top academies do both. Other academies are soccer only but make arrangements for the schooling.
Thanks!
Just wondering how the United States takes its next steps in its evolution as a soccer nation.
Quote from: Joe Wally on July 20, 2015, 10:31:17 PM
Thanks!
Just wondering how the United States takes its next steps in its evolution as a soccer nation.
Slowly. Development is driven by money. I have great faith in the MLS teams, but they need to actually make money. While the recent TV deal is a huge step forward, it's simply a drop in the bucket. These teams have great local followings, but the games need to turn into national events. I do think MLS will overtake the NHL, and I think eventually baseball is in trouble. Though that is probably at least a generation off. If MLS could start getting TV deals on par with what the NHL gets, and a similar national audience, the development academies would take huge leaps forward.
The other thing is the lower leagues need to change. Think of the soccer period in England. There are 20 teams in the premiership, 24 Championship teams, 24 League One, 24 League Two. So this relatively small country has 90+ professional teams where the players can actually make a year round living playing soccer. That is a huge amount of development per population. In the U.S. we have 20 or so (it seems in flux all the time) professional teams where players can make a year round living, that is MLS, and a bunch of NASL and USL teams where players can starve for the love of the game and work jobs in the off-season to survive.
That isn't going to cut it. I don't think the U.S. will ever support a soccer pyramid like England, but I do think that MLS, if it continues to grow, can support a farm system like MLB. Each team has two or three professional affiliates in lower levels, each with their own development academies. I think MLS will eventually end up with 34 teams in two divisions, based on other professional leagues and the inclusion of Canada. So if each MLS team had a pair of USL level affiliates that paid some kind of living wage, you would have almost 100 professional teams. Still low per population density, but probably good enough to make sure not too many players are slipping through the cracks. It would make sense to mandate that 80% of those lower level teams are made up of home country passport players. So MLS would be free to stock rosters with premier talent, but our development would be mostly home grown.
And no, I have no good idea of what to do with the NASL. Give it 20 or 30 years. Soccer has come a long way in the last 20, I think it will continue to move along at a good pace in the future. Short of football imploding due to tramatic brain injuries and the NBA rigging itself out of business, it's never going to be the top sport. But it doesn't have to be the top sport in the U.S. to allow the U.S. team and league to be among the best in the world.
Quote from: jknezek on July 21, 2015, 09:36:15 AM
Quote from: Joe Wally on July 20, 2015, 10:31:17 PM
Thanks!
Just wondering how the United States takes its next steps in its evolution as a soccer nation.
Slowly. Development is driven by money. I have great faith in the MLS teams, but they need to actually make money. While the recent TV deal is a huge step forward, it's simply a drop in the bucket. These teams have great local followings, but the games need to turn into national events. I do think MLS will overtake the NHL, and I think eventually baseball is in trouble. Though that is probably at least a generation off. If MLS could start getting TV deals on par with what the NHL gets, and a similar national audience, the development academies would take huge leaps forward.
The other thing is the lower leagues need to change. Think of the soccer period in England. There are 20 teams in the premiership, 24 Championship teams, 24 League One, 24 League Two. So this relatively small country has 90+ professional teams where the players can actually make a year round living playing soccer. That is a huge amount of development per population. In the U.S. we have 20 or so (it seems in flux all the time) professional teams where players can make a year round living, that is MLS, and a bunch of NASL and USL teams where players can starve for the love of the game and work jobs in the off-season to survive.
That isn't going to cut it. I don't think the U.S. will ever support a soccer pyramid like England, but I do think that MLS, if it continues to grow, can support a farm system like MLB. Each team has two or three professional affiliates in lower levels, each with their own development academies. I think MLS will eventually end up with 34 teams in two divisions, based on other professional leagues and the inclusion of Canada. So if each MLS team had a pair of USL level affiliates that paid some kind of living wage, you would have almost 100 professional teams. Still low per population density, but probably good enough to make sure not too many players are slipping through the cracks. It would make sense to mandate that 80% of those lower level teams are made up of home country passport players. So MLS would be free to stock rosters with premier talent, but our development would be mostly home grown.
And no, I have no good idea of what to do with the NASL. Give it 20 or 30 years. Soccer has come a long way in the last 20, I think it will continue to move along at a good pace in the future. Short of football imploding due to tramatic brain injuries and the NBA rigging itself out of business, it's never going to be the top sport. But it doesn't have to be the top sport in the U.S. to allow the U.S. team and league to be among the best in the world.
Very well said!
Former Saint Striker Carruth might have signaled his intentions by bringing in a very solid recruiting class to build on Heidelberg's '14 NCAA run.
http://athletics.heidelberg.edu/sports/msoc/2015-16/releases/20150708h2d2ma
Equally important he has hired a St. Lawrence All Time great, Andrew Bednarsky to be his assistant in taking the team forward.
Thanks, JK
I would love to see the U.S. develop the "soccer pyramid" that we see in England, but as you say the money is not there. An added problem is the fact that you have a large network of collegiate programs that siphon resources out of what would be that "soccer pyramid."
Quote from: Joe Wally on July 22, 2015, 12:58:55 PM
Thanks, JK
I would love to see the U.S. develop the "soccer pyramid" that we see in England, but as you say the money is not there. An added problem is the fact that you have a large network of collegiate programs that siphon resources out of what would be that "soccer pyramid."
I think you'll see a continued marginalization of the college game for the truly elite youth as the MLS academies gain strength. We've seen it at the h.s. level, it is starting to creep up to the college level. There is a better way to learn soccer than to play at the college level. That goes for all sports, of course, and is a reason why I think MLB does the best job of ensuring the best players rise to the top and the NFL does the worst job. But all of that is neither here nor there.
The best kids will still get degrees if they want them, but they won't be playing college soccer. On the upside, that's still only skimming a couple hundred top prospects off, and the rules for college soccer ensure the level of play isn't very good anyway, so I doubt anyone will notice too much.
Good point re the rules of college soccer. The substitution rules are misguided and ensure the emphasis on athleticism and ugly soccer over skill will continue.
Quote from: Corazon on July 22, 2015, 04:24:31 PM
Good point re the rules of college soccer. The substitution rules are misguided and ensure the emphasis on athleticism and ugly soccer over skill will continue.
Not the only problem. The restrictions on practice time, which exist for all sports, is worse. It guarantees a minimum of team cohesiveness and pushes teams to play long ball with athletes instead of soccer. PDL with its short season and seemingly random team make up year to year does the same thing. This is one of several reasons I find college soccer and the PDL developmental dead ends.
Quote from: jknezek on July 22, 2015, 04:29:31 PM
Quote from: Corazon on July 22, 2015, 04:24:31 PM
Good point re the rules of college soccer. The substitution rules are misguided and ensure the emphasis on athleticism and ugly soccer over skill will continue.
Not the only problem. The restrictions on practice time, which exist for all sports, is worse. It guarantees a minimum of team cohesiveness and pushes teams to play long ball with athletes instead of soccer. PDL with its short season and seemingly random team make up year to year does the same thing. This is one of several reasons I find college soccer and the PDL developmental dead ends.
Yes, college soccer is not for the top premier players due to developmental time constraints....it serves most players needs and provides for an education...it is not optimal for the cream of the crop...
Quote from: Saint of Old on July 22, 2015, 12:56:27 PM
Former Saint Striker Carruth might have signaled his intentions by bringing in a very solid recruiting class to build on Heidelberg's '14 NCAA run.
http://athletics.heidelberg.edu/sports/msoc/2015-16/releases/20150708h2d2ma
Equally important he has hired a St. Lawrence All Time great, Andrew Bednarsky to be his assistant in taking the team forward.
Heidelberg's gain is St. Lawrence's loss. As a youth coach in Southern California Carruth convinced a good number of high quality players to leave the warm climes of San Diego and play near the Canadian border. It looks like those same kids now will be heading to Northern Ohio and the home of Fort Ball.
Not to rehash this but this is an incredible story that will not go away
http://grantland.com/features/a-nightmare-in-potsdam-nick-hillary-soccer-coach-clarkson-university-trial-garrett-phillips-killing/
Not quite Louisville.....
http://pbasailfish.com/profile.asp?playerID=1239
Quote from: 4231CenterBack on July 29, 2015, 06:00:55 PM
Not quite Louisville.....
http://pbasailfish.com/profile.asp?playerID=1239
Geez, maybe should have stayed at Messiah and makes one wonder why he left Messiah.
I can honestly say, and with no negativity intended, that 5 minutes ago is the very first time I have ever heard of Palm Beach Atlantic University.
http://www.truthfornickhillary.com/
Quote from: NCAC New England on July 29, 2015, 06:20:31 PM
Quote from: 4231CenterBack on July 29, 2015, 06:00:55 PM
Not quite Louisville.....
http://pbasailfish.com/profile.asp?playerID=1239
Geez, maybe should have stayed at Messiah and makes one wonder why he left Messiah.
I can honestly say, and with no negativity intended, that 5 minutes ago is the very first time I have ever heard of Palm Beach Atlantic University.
If u looked at all of the D1 soccer teams, there are several you or I probably never heard of.....I wonder what the quality of soccer is like at those relatively unknown institutions....
Quote from: Nutmeg on July 29, 2015, 10:07:21 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on July 29, 2015, 06:20:31 PM
Quote from: 4231CenterBack on July 29, 2015, 06:00:55 PM
Not quite Louisville.....
http://pbasailfish.com/profile.asp?playerID=1239
Geez, maybe should have stayed at Messiah and makes one wonder why he left Messiah.
I can honestly say, and with no negativity intended, that 5 minutes ago is the very first time I have ever heard of Palm Beach Atlantic University.
If u looked at all of the D1 soccer teams, there are several you or I probably never heard of.....I wonder what the quality of soccer is like at those relatively unknown institutions....
I don't think there is a D1 I've never heard of. This school is D2.
Quote from: NCAC New England on July 29, 2015, 10:23:49 PM
Quote from: Nutmeg on July 29, 2015, 10:07:21 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on July 29, 2015, 06:20:31 PM
Quote from: 4231CenterBack on July 29, 2015, 06:00:55 PM
Not quite Louisville.....
http://pbasailfish.com/profile.asp?playerID=1239
Geez, maybe should have stayed at Messiah and makes one wonder why he left Messiah.
I can honestly say, and with no negativity intended, that 5 minutes ago is the very first time I have ever heard of Palm Beach Atlantic University.
If u looked at all of the D1 soccer teams, there are several you or I probably never heard of.....I wonder what the quality of soccer is like at those relatively unknown institutions....
I don't think there is a D1 I've never heard of. This school is D2.
What about university of Missouri at Kansas City.. Or university of Southern Indiana? You know about their programs? If so, you r one well read cookie! Lol
D2s are full of schools you've never heard of. They can offer scholarships, many can get academically borderline kids in, and many tend to recruit lots of foreign students, so the teams can be quite good.
Nutmeg, I know nothing about their soccer programs, but I have heard of those schools. Probably seen them all in the ESPN crawl or something.
I will be starting a website database that will be up and running in a few weeks. Free peer to peer jersey, T-shirt, jacket and sweatshirt trading; new, used, retro (youth club, college teams, professional club, international). Sign up and list the jerseys you have and search for the ones you want. Just pay shipping and I will provide the labels.
Stay tuned for updates and spread the word.
KitSwitch.com
Quote from: 4231CenterBack on July 29, 2015, 06:00:55 PM
Not quite Louisville.....
http://pbasailfish.com/profile.asp?playerID=1239
And Mr Right, earlier this year, couldn't contain himself from quickly telling everyone that this player was leaving Messiah to go to Louisville, obviously well before the true facts were known. We all need to be very careful not to throw these young players under the bus before we really know the truth, only because we want to try to act like we know more than everyone else. That's simply not fair to the very kids who make up the D3 soccer game that we love to follow.
I never said he was going to Louisville, someone else did. I said he had requested his papers to transfer in the middle of their season in 2014. Also, I am Mr.Right and I am always right but I do not try to "act" like I know more than everyone. I was simply throwing that info out there because to me that is one of the more bizarre decisions / news of the 2014 season. Since you and a couple other loyal Messiah supporters make up a good % of the posters on here, I was hoping someone could fill us in on what had happened. Also, where in the rules does it say I MUST be fair to the kids. I praise when they deserve praise and I criticize when they deserve criticism. I generally hope that all posters would do that because it makes for great discussion.
He actually did go to Louisville. He was there for a few weeks and then left. I'll let the Messiah insiders fill in the details as they see fit.
Quote from: 4231CenterBack on July 31, 2015, 03:15:11 PM
He actually did go to Louisville. He was there for a few weeks and then left. I'll let the Messiah insiders fill in the details as they see fit.
Is this actually true? He was never listed on their Spring roster.
Quote from: Mr.Right on July 31, 2015, 01:47:14 PM
I never said he was going to Louisville, someone else did. I said he had requested his papers to transfer in the middle of their season in 2014. Also, I am Mr.Right and I am always right but I do not try to "act" like I know more than everyone. I was simply throwing that info out there because to me that is one of the more bizarre decisions / news of the 2014 season. Since you and a couple other loyal Messiah supporters make up a good % of the posters on here, I was hoping someone could fill us in on what had happened. Also, where in the rules does it say I MUST be fair to the kids. I praise when they deserve praise and I criticize when they deserve criticism. I generally hope that all posters would do that because it makes for great discussion.
4231CenterBackRe: 2014 D3 Season: National Perspective
« Reply #2207 on: December 26, 2014, 04:05:21 pm »
Quote
Danny Brandt to LouisvilleMr.RightRe: 2014 D3 Season: National Perspective
« Reply #2208 on: December 26, 2014, 04:12:32 pm »
Quote
Told YaMr Right -- Back is December you claimed you told us this was happening. Now you claim you never said it. Which statement is the truth?
Quote from: Flying Weasel on June 30, 2015, 12:08:47 PM
Quote from: 4231CenterBack on June 27, 2015, 11:33:48 AM
. . . Wheaton. They can recruit from anywhere in the country and even the rest of the world. They are historically one of the best two or three programs in division three soccer. They aspire to, and believe they should be where Messiah is. If they don't go deep into the tournament every year, the alumni especially, consider it a failure. . . .
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on June 28, 2015, 06:05:02 PM
. . . Not sure I'd place them in the top three D3 programs historically. Sure over the past 15 seasons they have made it to the Final 4 twice. In 2006, losing soundly to Messiah 3-0. and of course we all saw what happened last season when they hit the Tufts buzzsaw. In those same past 15 seasons, Messiah has been to the championship final 10 times and has won every one of those games (10X National Champions). . . .
D3soccerwatcher, I think it would be very hard not to have Wheaton (Ill.) in the top 3 all-time. Only Ohio Wesleyan can match/top Wheaton's consistency across all 41 years of Division III's existence. Take a look at their resume below.
I think Messiah, Ohio Wesleyan, and Wheaton (Ill.) are the best bets for the top 3. Messiah makes the cut on shear dominace over the last 15 years combined with their pair of Final Fours runs in the 80's despite only joining D-III eight years after its inception. Ohio Wesleyan and Wheaton (Ill.) have been Top 25 programs practically the entire history of Division III and the leaders in NCAA tournament appearances. UNC-Greensboro was dominant for a seven-year period (1981-1988) but left D-III at that point meaning they have not been a D-III member for well over half of its history. UC San Diego has a stronger case because they hung around a bit longer before moving to D-II, being a top program for about 15 years (1983-1999) before their departure, but other programs that have remained in D-III have now matched their success numerically. Williams would probably have a strong case for the top 3 if not for the NESCAC's ban on post-season play up until 1993. And if this discussion was being held 10 or more years ago, Rowan would be in the top 3, but their drastic decline in the new mellenuim has seen them fall well behind Wheaton and Ohio Wesleyan.
Those are the contenders, and to me it's clear Wheaton is in the top 3. An NCAA D-III Finalist in four different decades; two titles; top 3 in all-time D-III tournament appearances, wins, Sweet 16's, and Elite 8's; two of the five longest D-III unbeaten streaks coming in different decades; and an .750 overall winning pct. across 41 years.
WHEATON (ILL.) MEN'S SOCCER - DIVISION III ERA (1974 - 2014)
Overall Record: 632-188-68 (.750)
NCAA Appearances: 35 - second only to Ohio Wesleyan's 37 years participating; third best is 24 appearances (eleven less than Wheaton) by Messiah, Rowan, and Elizabethtown.
NCAA Wins: 48 - third most behind Messiah (74) and Ohio Wesleyan (61); ahead of Williams (36) and Trinity-TX (36).
NCAA Winning Percentage: .604 over 82 tournament games played
NCAA Sweet 16's: 23 (spread across 39 years) - second most behind Ohio Wesleyan (28) and one ahead of Messiah (22).
NCAA Elite 8's: 13 (spread across 39 years) - third most after Messiah (17) and Ohio Wesleyan (16); ahead of Williams (11).
NCAA Final Fours: 6 - only three schools have more: Messiah (14), Ohio Wesleyan (10), and Rowan (7).
NCAA Finalist: 5 times in four different decades spanning 31 years - only Messiah (10) has been to the title game more; Rowan's and Ohio Wesleyan's four title game appearances spanned 22 years.
Championships: 2 - only four schools have more: one is Messiah (10), UNC-Greensboro (5) and UC-San Diego (3) left D-III a long time ago, and Babson (3) won all of their titles by 1980.
Unbeaten Streaks: 66 games (1996-98), longest all-time in men's collegiate soccer; and 39 games (1984-85), fifth longest in men's D-III history.
Many of Wheaton's "records" are 20+ years old. And many of these "records" are heavily aided by Wheaton being in NCAA D3 longer then most other programs.
But just to look at overall records since being in the NCAA...
Wheaton: 632-188-68 (.71 wining percentage) (first year of NCAA eligibility 1974)
Messiah: 623-94-36 (.83 winning percentage) (first year of NCAA eligibility 1981)
And NCAA wins...
Wheaton: 48 (since 1974)
Messiah: 74 (since 1981)
And NCAA appearances in the past five years...
Wheaton: 3 years
Messiah: 5 years
National Championships:
Wheaton: 2 (since 1974)
Messiah: 10 (since 1981)
I like Wheaton a lot, and I think they are a very good team. And I frequently get to see them play live. IMO they should be ranked #1 in the nation in the pre-season poll (given their returning talent).
I know they want to be in the conversation right there with Messiah, line item by line item. But they simply are not there yet. Particularly when you look at the past two decades.
Maybe they are in the top 3 overall...but it looks like a big gap between #1 and #3.
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on August 02, 2015, 10:33:49 PM
Quote from: 4231CenterBack on July 31, 2015, 03:15:11 PM
He actually did go to Louisville. He was there for a few weeks and then left. I'll let the Messiah insiders fill in the details as they see fit.
Is this actually true? He was never listed on their Spring roster.
Yes, from a mutual friend
Does anyone happen to know if D3Soccer will be doing preseason rankings this year? I see that NSCAA is set to release their DIII Preseason Rankings on August 7.
Quote from: Puerco Espin on August 05, 2015, 02:39:33 AMI see that NSCAA is set to release their DIII Preseason Rankings on August 7.
I'm guessing they'll bear a striking resemblence to their Final 2014 poll--standard operating procedure for the NSCAA!
http://www.nscaa.com/rankings/4163
This should be the hyperlink for the rankings in a few days...
Apologies in advance. Couldn't help myself...
http://athletics.kenyon.edu/news/2015/8/5/GEN_0805153121.aspx
BTW, there was a comment last year about the small size of the Kenyon pitch. Is 120 by 75 considered small?
Quote from: NCAC New England on August 05, 2015, 12:07:59 PM
Apologies in advance. Couldn't help myself...
http://athletics.kenyon.edu/news/2015/8/5/GEN_0805153121.aspx
BTW, there was a comment last year about the small size of the Kenyon pitch. Is 120 by 75 considered small?
Nice. I think someone last year (perhaps Mr. Right?) predicted Kenyon would do well and have an impressive recruiting class.
Preseason rankings are out...
#1 Tufts
#2 Wheaton (IL)
#3 Messiah and SUNY Oneonta (tie)
#5 Ohio Weslyan
Surprised Thomas More isn't listed in the rankings or other receiving votes.
Also interesting that Trinity (CT) received votes for the Top 25 as the NESCAC insiders are picking them to be somewhere between #7-10 in the league.
Also interesting that half or more of NESCAC insiders on this site aren't picking Tufts to even finish in the top 2 in the conference much less to be a national powerhouse. Perhaps that goes to show just how "pre" these rankings are at this point.
The NCAC New England top 25...
1) Amherst
2) Wheaton (Ill)
3) Messiah
4) Oneonta St
5) Loras
6) Trinity (TX)
7) St Lawrence
8) Tufts
9) Middlebury
10) Kenyon
11) Franklin & Marshall
12) Whitworth
13) Thomas More
14) North Park
15) Calvin
16) Rutgers Camden
17) Stevens
18) Brandeis
19) Wheaton (MA)
20) Babson
21) Muhlenberg
22) Wartburg
23) OWU
24) Emory
25) Montclair St
RC -- Gordon, Centre, Wesleyan, CNU, Newark, GAC, Cortland, Lynchburg, K'Zoo, Rochester, Lycoming, Williams, Hope, Dickinson
Amherst first and no Williams even in footnotes.......your colors are showing, lol
Quote from: WilltheMan on August 11, 2015, 08:30:27 AM
Amherst first and no Williams even in footnotes.......your colors are showing, lol
Williams was in "the footnotes." Look again.
Where would you rank Williams in a preseason poll, a team that didn't make the tournament last year and has a fair share of question marks going into their first year with a new coach with some very stiff competition for a top 3-4 finish in the conference?
Sorry I missed it. But still if you were a betting man you would take teams 15-25 over Williams on a neutral field? I don't mean to beat the drum for them, others here do that but couple nice frosh last year, Rashid back, always a good recruit class and I'm not sure Russo and that slow group a seniors movin on such a bad thing......I don't like "picking" on players but Williams didn't seem to have pace through the middle that many others did.....just my humble....
They open with Oneonta, might have a good indication strait away.
Still think Tufts deserves more respect, you can hear the giant sucking sound of talent heading over there next few years wanting to play for him......and national title program, this is how it starts.
Quote from: WilltheMan on August 11, 2015, 03:51:54 PM
Sorry I missed it. But still if you were a betting man you would take teams 15-25 over Williams on a neutral field? I don't mean to beat the drum for them, others here do that but couple nice frosh last year, Rashid back, always a good recruit class and I'm not sure Russo and that slow group a seniors movin on such a bad thing......I don't like "picking" on players but Williams didn't seem to have pace through the middle that many others did.....just my humble....
They open with Oneonta, might have a good indication strait away.
Still think Tufts deserves more respect, you can hear the giant sucking sound of talent heading over there next few years wanting to play for him......and national title program, this is how it starts.
Schools like Messiah and Wheaton have an advantage in recruiting given their programs strong history and the religious bent. Yes, a National Championship and Coach of the Year will definitely help the JUMBOS but there are many teams to compete with, let alone within their own conference. They lost a good group of seniors but have a good group of juniors with lots of playing experience and a solid keeper returning this year. Tufts has had good teams since Coach Shapiro came in 4 years ago. The program had nowhere to go but up....and it skyrocketed. The win last year should help them be consistently good for the next few years but it will be hard for anyone to match Messiah's success over the past 10 years (although The Giant Slayer Goal put a temporary end to that). The Jumbos are a fun soccer team to watch and knock the ball around well. They will have to get talented players to continue that style and be successful....and the coach will have to stay for awhile. Let's get this season started already!!!!
Quote from: Brother Flounder on August 11, 2015, 05:35:44 PM
Quote from: WilltheMan on August 11, 2015, 03:51:54 PM
Sorry I missed it. But still if you were a betting man you would take teams 15-25 over Williams on a neutral field? I don't mean to beat the drum for them, others here do that but couple nice frosh last year, Rashid back, always a good recruit class and I'm not sure Russo and that slow group a seniors movin on such a bad thing......I don't like "picking" on players but Williams didn't seem to have pace through the middle that many others did.....just my humble....
They open with Oneonta, might have a good indication strait away.
Still think Tufts deserves more respect, you can hear the giant sucking sound of talent heading over there next few years wanting to play for him......and national title program, this is how it starts.
Schools like Messiah and Wheaton have an advantage in recruiting given their programs strong history and the religious bent. Yes, a National Championship and Coach of the Year will definitely help the JUMBOS but there are many teams to compete with, let alone within their own conference. They lost a good group of seniors but have a good group of juniors with lots of playing experience and a solid keeper returning this year. Tufts has had good teams since Coach Shapiro came in 4 years ago. The program had nowhere to go but up....and it skyrocketed. The win last year should help them be consistently good for the next few years but it will be hard for anyone to match Messiah's success over the past 10 years (although The Giant Slayer Goal put a temporary end to that). The Jumbos are a fun soccer team to watch and knock the ball around well. They will have to get talented players to continue that style and be successful....and the coach will have to stay for awhile. Let's get this season started already!!!!
That's a double-edged sword.
Some recruits will see that as a huge plus, but probably a larger number would see it as a deal-breaker. I.e., it will clinch the deal for some, but that pool is relatively limited.
Is it really that ridiculous to not rank a team pre-season who finished last season without any votes for the Top 25 and who is undergoing a coaching change? Williams might prove to be a Top 25 team, but a wait and see attitude seems perfectly appropriate.
Player with most goals in 2015? Mike Ryan (Golz, Colofranson, someone from CSS).
Team with the most shutouts? Kenyon
Will a team go unbeaten before the tourney this year? No
Longest unbeaten streak? Wheaton Ill (gonna be tough going into Loras and getting the W).
Over/under Messiah losses... 3.5? (over)
Over/under Tufts losses... 4 (over)
FINAL FOUR PREDICTIONS: Wheaton Ill, Trinity, Amherst, Rutgers-Camden (Elite 8: Loras, Ohio Wesleyan, SLU, Oneonta St). Messiah bows out in Sweet 16.
I'll have to remind myself to check this come tournament time... haha.
Haverford looking to take a beating again, but prove their worth with a daunting non conference schedule:
@ Stevens
Wesleyan
@ Montclair St
Stockton
@ Rutgers-Camden
Catholic
Looks like it will be one of the toughest in the nation when you factor in the Centennial Conference, IMO.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on August 25, 2015, 12:35:28 PM
Player with most goals in 2015? Mike Ryan (Golz, Colofranson, someone from CSS).
Team with the most shutouts? Kenyon, WHO THE HELL KNOWS?
Will a team go unbeaten before the tourney this year? No AGREED
Longest unbeaten streak? Wheaton Ill (gonna be tough going into Loras and getting the W). I SAY MESSIAH, THOUGH WOULD LIKE TO SEE HOW WHEATON WOULD DO IN THE NESCAC...
Over/under Messiah losses... 3.5? (over) UNDER
Over/under Tufts losses... 4 (over) EQUAL OR UNDER
FINAL FOUR PREDICTIONS: Wheaton Ill, Trinity, Amherst, Rutgers-Camden (Elite 8: Loras, Ohio Wesleyan, SLU, Oneonta St). Messiah bows out in Sweet 16. NOT READY TO PREDICT YET. STILL CONTEMPLATING... :) :)
I'll have to remind myself to check this come tournament time... haha.
Over at D3soccer.com we have posted a tracker of all the Preseason Conference Polls (http://www.d3soccer.com/notables/2015/08/Preseason-Conference-Polls).
Whitworth drops a 2-0 results to Gonzaga.
Are there any Preseason games out there with live feeds? Please post if so. We are just a few days away before the season kicks off. Good luck to all the schools.
I sure don't miss those three-a-days...
Bennett Ranking has changed domain names and includes Preseason Rankings and Conference Previews:
http://herosports.com/collegesoccer/view-every-d3-mens-soccer-conference-preview-right/
MASSEY RANKINGS
http://www.masseyratings.com/rate.php?s=csoc2015&sub=11620
SOS:
1) Williams
2) Tufts
3) Wesleyan
4) Hamilton
5) Amherst
6) Colby
7) Chicago
8) Brandeis
9) Connecticut
10) Bowdoin
11) Trinity (CT)
12) Haverford
13) Bates
14) N Central Ill
15) Rochester
These will change after the first few games, but no surprise to see the NESCAC dominate the SOS realm along with UAA and Haverford.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on August 26, 2015, 10:32:08 AM
Bennett Ranking has changed domain names and includes Preseason Rankings and Conference Previews:
http://herosports.com/collegesoccer/view-every-d3-mens-soccer-conference-preview-right/
MASSEY RANKINGS
http://www.masseyratings.com/rate.php?s=csoc2015&sub=11620
SOS:
1) Williams
2) Tufts
3) Wesleyan
4) Hamilton
5) Amherst
6) Colby
7) Chicago
8) Brandeis
9) Connecticut
10) Bowdoin
11) Trinity (CT)
12) Haverford
13) Bates
14) N Central Ill
15) Rochester
These will change after the first few games, but no surprise to see the NESCAC dominate the SOS realm along with UAA and Haverford.
Unfortunately for the NESCAC teams, these high SOS's will keep some out of the tournament due to losses. I see Middlebury is not up there. This will give them a slight advantage....
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on August 25, 2015, 12:40:52 PM
Haverford looking to take a beating again, but prove their worth with a daunting non conference schedule:
@ Stevens
Wesleyan
@ Montclair St
Stockton
@ Rutgers-Camden
Catholic
Looks like it will be one of the toughest in the nation when you factor in the Centennial Conference, IMO.
what conference is the toughest in D3?
1) NESCAC
2) CENTENNIAL
3) NJAC/UAA
4) LIBERTY/CCIW
5) IIAC/NEWMAC
Quote from: NEPAFAN on August 26, 2015, 11:47:01 AM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on August 25, 2015, 12:40:52 PM
Haverford looking to take a beating again, but prove their worth with a daunting non conference schedule:
@ Stevens
Wesleyan
@ Montclair St
Stockton
@ Rutgers-Camden
Catholic
Looks like it will be one of the toughest in the nation when you factor in the Centennial Conference, IMO.
what conference is the toughest in D3?
Toughest from Top to Bottom for League play in D3 is the NESCAC. Not saying the best team or 2 or 3 of the top teams in the nation, but the NESCAC teams butcher each other up each year, and #1 can be beaten by #11 within the League each year as so often happens....which unfortunately is a huge negative when it comes to NCAA time and at large berths due to lower winning %'s from the brutal League schedule.
Pre-season games should be in full swing this week and through the weekend. If you have information on results please post.
Was told that Rutgers-Camden beat Eastern 1-0 and tied Dickinson 0-0
The NCAC should probably be included on that list. Has had at least 2 teams in the NCAA tournament every year since 2008 including 2013 when it had 3 (and arguably should have had a 4th in DePauw). Boasts Top 10 teams Kenyon and Ohio Wesleyan in addition to DePauw which has been a perennial Top 25 team the last 3-4 years. Wabash was also in the Top 25 last year and Oberlin has flirted with it.
I think you're pretty generous with the CCIW on that list. Outside of Wheaton and the occasional North Park/Carthage, it's not too strong IMO.
Don't know anything more than the scoreline, but Messiah lost to F&M 2-1 in a scrimmage last night.
Quote from: Midwest Soccer on August 27, 2015, 10:30:58 AM
The NCAC should probably be included on that list. Has had at least 2 teams in the NCAA tournament every year since 2008 including 2013 when it had 3 (and arguably should have had a 4th in DePauw). Boasts Top 10 teams Kenyon and Ohio Wesleyan in addition to DePauw which has been a perennial Top 25 team the last 3-4 years. Wabash was also in the Top 25 last year and Oberlin has flirted with it.
I think you're pretty generous with the CCIW on that list. Outside of Wheaton and the occasional North Park/Carthage, it's not too strong IMO.
Not disagreeing with you here, as I am not as familiar with the Central teams. I just looked up Bennet Ranks for conference, NCAC is listed a bizarre #15. SUNYAC (Oneonta St, Cortland St, Brockport St, Plattsburgh St) #14
OWU 1-0 over Urbana
Oberlin 2-1 over Capital
Ohio Northern Preview: http://onusports.com/sports/msoc/2015-16/releases/20150824ati1ay
Ah, you can feel the season coming in the air. A melancholy time I imagine for guys who graduated in May (and of course their parents who spent the last 15 or so years watching theirs kids play every year). Would be interesting to see guys like RH, S Noon, G Wirz, one of the Messiah guys, etc write about their experiences of being done and not playing those first couple of years. I might write a piece myself eventually. There's not much better than traveling to games and spending a couple of days hanging out on a beautiful college campus and getting to see your kid play in some quality D3 college action.
Quote from: NCAC New England on August 27, 2015, 01:20:06 PM
Ah, you can feel the season coming in the air. A melancholy time I imagine for guys who graduated in May (and of course their parents who spent the last 15 or so years watching theirs kids play every year). Would be interesting to see guys like RH, S Noon, G Wirz, one of the Messiah guys, etc write about their experiences of being done and not playing those first couple of years. I might write a piece myself eventually. There's not much better than traveling to games and spending a couple of days hanging out on a beautiful college campus and getting to see your kid play in some quality D3 college action.
My college playing days are long over, but my youngest son just finished playing at my alma mater. First time since 2002 that I won't be watching one of my kids play college games (D-I girl; 2 D-III boys). I'm deep in the throes of withdrawal . . .
Quote from: 1970s NESCAC Player on August 27, 2015, 03:13:38 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on August 27, 2015, 01:20:06 PM
Ah, you can feel the season coming in the air. A melancholy time I imagine for guys who graduated in May (and of course their parents who spent the last 15 or so years watching theirs kids play every year). Would be interesting to see guys like RH, S Noon, G Wirz, one of the Messiah guys, etc write about their experiences of being done and not playing those first couple of years. I might write a piece myself eventually. There's not much better than traveling to games and spending a couple of days hanging out on a beautiful college campus and getting to see your kid play in some quality D3 college action.
My college playing days are long over, but my youngest son just finished playing at my alma mater. First time since 2002 that I won't be watching one of my kids play college games (D-I girl; 2 D-III boys). I'm deep in the throes of withdrawal . . .
Yep. I'm lost, lol. Used to sit in the coffee shop on campus and stream a bunch of other games waiting for "our" game. And then I would stream more games
after "our" game.
Don't count out Brandeis. Robbie Lynch coming back for a 5th year. Interesting note is that Savonen stays on as graduate assistant.
I agree the NCAC should be in the list...
After taking a look at Haverford's overall schedule I would give that a Top 3 vote for toughest in the country. You can bet they will have a SOS of about .615-.620. Now all they need is a couple wins in some of those games and to take care of business in the others. So they have Centennial and half of the NJAC plus Wesleyan and Stevens
Highlights of the Non-Conf
vs Scranton
at Stevens
vs Wesleyan
at Montclair St
at Rutgers Camden
vs Catholic
vs Stockton
On top of the very challenging Centennial conference.
The only cupcake is at Rosemont
Mr.Right.... almost identical post on page 18 of thread #268, in reference to Haverford.
Haha...My bad...We are in agreement on that one
Was looking to get some insight into the Wheaton Thunder this year. New Coach and looks like they lost some guys to graduation last year, but are still returning some pretty big names. I also see they dropped a late pre-season scrimmage the other night to local D3 Dominican so was wondering if that is just an anomaly or if some changes have been instilled and there will be some growing pains after the run they had last year.
Expectations are EXTREMELY HIGH for the Thunder. They return a large number of quality players from last year's national runner-up team, including Golz up top and Borge in the midfield...and their most heralded player Marshall Hollingsworth (a early favorite for NPOY), not to mention a very solid group of returning underclassmen. They have also brought in a host of potentially impactful freshmen from around the country. Time will tell if their new coach can harness this deep level of talent and convert it into a championship season. They have been picked to win the CCIW in the pre-season coaches poll.
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on August 31, 2015, 10:02:58 PM
Expectations are EXTREMELY HIGH for the Thunder. They return a large number of quality players from last year's national runner-up team, including Golz up top and Borge in the midfield...and their most heralded player Marshall Hollingsworth (a early favorite for NPOY), not to mention a very solid group of returning underclassmen. They have also brought in a host of potentially impactful freshmen from around the country. Time will tell if their new coach can harness this deep level of talent and convert it into a championship season. They have been picked to win the CCIW in the pre-season coaches poll.
How is Hollingsworth doing after his 3rd knee surgery in 3 years? Hopefully, he is in good form as he is exciting to watch...
I understand he played for Bridges FC this summer...so I think he is ready to go.
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on August 31, 2015, 10:45:17 PM
I understand he played for Bridges FC this summer...so I think he is ready to go.
That's good news!
The start of the D3 2015 soccer season is today. Looking forward to a fun and exciting season.
Good luck to all!
Looking forward to seeing my Vikings of North Park play this evening. They should be pretty strong, but will be inexperienced in the GK position. It appears their all-conference (I think and too lazy to look) GK is not on the roster for his senior season.
Quote from: Gotberg on September 01, 2015, 09:38:00 AM
Looking forward to seeing my Vikings of North Park play this evening. They should be pretty strong, but will be inexperienced in the GK position. It appears their all-conference (I think and too lazy to look) GK is not on the roster for his senior season.
Too lazy to look, but not lazy enough to post. Classic.
Let's Go........LORDS!!!
Today keeping my eye on...
Wittenberg @ Thomas More
Allegheny @ Grove City
Greensboro @ W&L
Scranton @ Haverford
DePauw @ Hanover
Transy @ Wooster
Centre @ RHIT
Oneonta @ Morrisville
JCU @ Denison
Rochester @ Geneseo
KZoo @ Elmhurst
Oberlin @ Otterbein
Dominican @ Chicago
Time for the talking to stop and the playing to begin (for the players).
For us have beens, lets blab away, we earned it!!!
Too nervous to speak on my Brothers in Red, but I'm looking fwd to see Stevens/Williams/Oneonta/RPI/Rochester and Wheaton all competing to climb the mountain this year.
I clicked on the Montclair St game and walked into a Hilbert vs Medaille tilt lol. Medaille leading 1-0 in 56th minute.
I know...I think it would be great if we announced who scored the 1st goal of the 2015 season. Kind of like when Eric Wynalda scored the first goal in MLS in 1995
That's wild. According to MatchTracker, Montclair State scored with 1 sec. left on the clock to win 1-0. Kyle Goodwin sent a free kick through the wall and into the lower left corner.
I knew I couldn't count on Oswego's video feed to work.
Grove City 4
Allegheny 0
Might Grove City be emerging as a threat to Thomas More in the PAC?
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on September 01, 2015, 06:12:58 PM
Grove City 4
Allegheny 0
Might Grove City be emerging as a threat to Thomas More in the PAC?
I think they already were. Austin Juniet for Thomas More gets a brace and is strong candidate for some All-American teams.
Kenyon up 3-0 at half at Waynesburg. Bench already emptied. Amolo doesn't start and scores in first 3 minutes on field. Freshmen playing a lot.
Babson opens up with 3-0 LOSS to ECSU.
Wartburg draws with Macalester 3-3.
Haverford sneaks past Scranton 2-1.
Must be bad weather in OH and PA. Denison vs JCU postponed. OWU delayed. Seems like Kenyon At Waynesburg must be in delay as well.
Edit: Kenyon did get the game in. Ended 3-0. Shots 29-1.
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 01, 2015, 07:23:37 PM
Must be bad weather in OH and PA. Denison vs JCU postponed. OWU delayed. Seems like Kenyon At Waynesburg must be in delay as well.
Edit: Kenyon did get the game in. Ended 3-0. Shots 29-1.
Muggy - but an otherwise glorious day here in Ohio. A Denison student, missing since the weekend, was found dead yesterday. Game postponed. There was a minute of silence at the Otterbein-Oberlin game.
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on September 01, 2015, 06:12:58 PM
Grove City 4
Allegheny 0
Might Grove City be emerging as a threat to Thomas More in the PAC?
I was wondering how Thomas More would respond with the loss of all those seniors and a new HC. That Zaragoza kid for Wittenberg - got to see him in HS as a junior - is very strong, cocky. Bagged two goals for Wittenberg. But a 4-3 score line really surprised me!
Great day for top 4 Centennial Conference teams against good opponents.
Haverford 2 vs Scranton 1--- Watched a little of the game and thought Haverford controlled the game.
F&M 2 vs LVC 0--- Looks like F&M will be extremely strong again.
Muhlenberg 2 vs Centenary 0--- stingy defense again for the Muhls
Dickinson 2 vs Catholic 0--- off to another good start. Saw some of this game and Dickinson looked strong in attack.
These four teams seem to be the ones challenging for top 4 spots in the CC.
Quote from: NEPAFAN on September 01, 2015, 09:42:08 AM
Quote from: Gotberg on September 01, 2015, 09:38:00 AM
Looking forward to seeing my Vikings of North Park play this evening. They should be pretty strong, but will be inexperienced in the GK position. It appears their all-conference (I think and too lazy to look) GK is not on the roster for his senior season.
Too lazy to look, but not lazy enough to post. Classic.
I decided to add the all-conference tidbit mid-post, but point taken. Last year's GK for NPU was 2nd team all conference.
Some notables in the sunyac:
Geneseo upsets UR 1-0
Cortland come back from 2-0 at half to win 6-2
Buff state beats Alfred state 2-0
Brockport beats fisher 3-0
Plattsburgh survives Clarkson 2-1 in OT
St Lawrence handles Osewgo 3-0
and Oneonta beats Morrisville 2-0
Quote from: Domino1195 on September 02, 2015, 07:04:45 AM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on September 01, 2015, 06:12:58 PM
Grove City 4
Allegheny 0
Might Grove City be emerging as a threat to Thomas More in the PAC?
I was wondering how Thomas More would respond with the loss of all those seniors and a new HC. That Zaragoza kid for Wittenberg - got to see him in HS as a junior - is very strong, cocky. Bagged two goals for Wittenberg. But a 4-3 score line really surprised me!
Thanks for the good info Domino, especially regarding Denison situation. Will be counting on you this year for some good on-site reporting in the Great Lakes region! And, yeah, even though looked like the Thomas More win may have been more comfortable than the score suggests, I haven't really considered how many seniors they lost. We'll get a good read on Thomas More when they play at OWU on 9/20.
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 02, 2015, 09:42:59 AM
Quote from: Domino1195 on September 02, 2015, 07:04:45 AM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on September 01, 2015, 06:12:58 PM
Grove City 4
Allegheny 0
Might Grove City be emerging as a threat to Thomas More in the PAC?
I was wondering how Thomas More would respond with the loss of all those seniors and a new HC. That Zaragoza kid for Wittenberg - got to see him in HS as a junior - is very strong, cocky. Bagged two goals for Wittenberg. But a 4-3 score line really surprised me!
Thanks for the good info Domino, especially regarding Denison situation. Will be counting on you this year for some good on-site reporting in the Great Lakes region! And, yeah, even though looked like the Thomas More win may have been more comfortable than the score suggests, I haven't really considered how many seniors they lost. We'll get a good read on Thomas More when they play at OWU on 9/20.
Speaking of OWU - their "revenge" game at Otterbein could be a blow-out (9/9). Otterbein are having challenges at midfield and defense - Oberlin easily had 60+ percent possession and were unlucky not to have scored more than 2. Otterbein scored off a quick counter 4 minutes into the game - almost a breakaway - and that - other than a stray chance or two - is all that they could muster.
Oberlin could be interesting - very technical - excellent team possession - two freshman starters - one got their first goal; and the goalkeeper - probably the key to their success this year
Domino, are you still going to Heidelberg @ Kenyon game Sunday? Should be a good one. No way Kenyon's completely new defense will have gelled by then. Also will be interested to see your take on all the new freshmen.
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 02, 2015, 10:48:39 AM
Domino, are you still going to Heidelberg @ Kenyon game Sunday? Should be a good one. No way Kenyon's completely new defense will have gelled by then. Also will be interested to see your take on all the new freshmen.
If all goes well. I am going to Cap/Albion and OWU/Kalamazoo Friday, Cap again on Sat vs Kal.
Quote from: Domino1195 on September 02, 2015, 06:59:41 AM
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 01, 2015, 07:23:37 PM
Must be bad weather in OH and PA. Denison vs JCU postponed. OWU delayed. Seems like Kenyon At Waynesburg must be in delay as well.
Edit: Kenyon did get the game in. Ended 3-0. Shots 29-1.
Muggy - but an otherwise glorious day here in Ohio. A Denison student, missing since the weekend, was found dead yesterday. Game postponed. There was a minute of silence at the Otterbein-Oberlin game.
This reminds me of 2005 in the NCAA Sweet 16's prior to the Williams v St.Lawrence game at SLU. A bench player went missing a couple days before the game and they eventually found him dead near a river close to a bar. He must have blacked out and froze to death. I am a little fuzzy on the details but it was a real tragedy for SLU players / community. It was a great game as SLU players came out fired up with both teams having some great scoring chances but Williams prevailed 1-0 in OT. Of course then Williams had a heartbreaking loss to Geneseo State and missed out on the 2005 NCAA Final 4. Geneseo went on to get hammered by UC Santa Cruz 4-0.
Quote from: Mr.Right on September 02, 2015, 12:43:38 PM
Quote from: Domino1195 on September 02, 2015, 06:59:41 AM
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 01, 2015, 07:23:37 PM
Must be bad weather in OH and PA. Denison vs JCU postponed. OWU delayed. Seems like Kenyon At Waynesburg must be in delay as well.
Edit: Kenyon did get the game in. Ended 3-0. Shots 29-1.
Muggy - but an otherwise glorious day here in Ohio. A Denison student, missing since the weekend, was found dead yesterday. Game postponed. There was a minute of silence at the Otterbein-Oberlin game.
This reminds me of 2005 in the NCAA Sweet 16's prior to the Williams v St.Lawrence game at SLU. A bench player went missing a couple days before the game and they eventually found him dead near a river close to a bar. He must have blacked out and froze to death. I am a little fuzzy on the details but it was a real tragedy for SLU players / community. It was a great game as SLU players came out fired up with both teams having some great scoring chances but Williams prevailed 1-0 in OT. Of course then Williams had a heartbreaking loss to Geneseo State and missed out on the 2005 NCAA Final 4. Geneseo went on to get hammered by UC Santa Cruz 4-0.
Yes, that was a tragic day. The student was the film coordinator and everyone was quite shocked as to why he didn't show. It was a pretty turbulent few months in our tiny town. Lots of controversy over the bar owner, the bartenders and the university that went on for quite a long time.
4 Surprising Results from yesterday:
1. Brandeis v Bridgewater St 1-0 Remember what I said about sometimes you can catch an inferior team by surprise the first few games. This could have been a great example. If not for an 84th minute strike Bridgewater might have gotten a great result at Brandeis. I did not see the game but based on the stats it was fairly even. 3 SOG for each team. If I had to guess I bet Brandeis dominated possession and maybe Bridgewater had a couple chances on the counter and their keeper probably mad a great save or two to keep them in the game. Bridgewater is the best team in MASCAC but that is a pretty weak league in New England. Maybe Brandeis had Texas on their mind. This weekend will give us a good gauge.
2. Geneseo St v U.Rochester 1-0 These 2 teams usually battle it out every year but I was not expecting this result. The box score looks like it was fairly even. Very disappointing result for Rochester as they cannot afford too many losses like this. Surely this Geneseo side is not as good as their sides in the mid 2000's. Rochester usually racks up about 4-5 Ties every year and with the daunting UAA coming in late September / October they cannot have to many more disappointing losses like this.
3. ECONN v Babson 3-0 I spoke about this game in an earlier post. I was still surprised that ECONN put 3 away against Babson. Rebuilding or not 3 goals against Babson is excellent for a side that struggled to score all of last year. The question is can ECONN build on this result. They have two challenging games coming up at Muhlenberg and at Wesleyan. If they get results in both those games and can get a result against Conn College and possibly Gordon you are looking at a good NCAA resume. Wishful thinking YES but it can be very motivating to a team, not that they look that far ahead but anyway.
4. Coast Guard v WCONN 0-2 Last year I bashed Coast Guard and the NEWMAC in general for what I thought to be over inflated resumes and regional rankings. I proved to be right about both as the NEWMAC as I predicted failed miserably in the NCAA's. Can you imagine if WPI got a Pool C last year, it would have been a disaster and a waste of a bid. Coast Guard must have lost some senior talent as this is not a good result. Western Connecticut has not been relevant since 2005. They used to be a tough team to play on that gnarly turf and some very physical and athletic players. The past few seasons they have been on the bottom tier of teams in New England and the program has fallen maybe more than any team in New England. Maybe they are starting to improve
Wow. Looks I better stay away from the predictions this season.
Wentworth 2, Wheaton (MA) 1
That is a rough result considering Wentworth inexplicably played the day before.
http://herosports.com/collegesoccer/d3-mens-soccer-conference-power-rankings/
Connor Hurff with 2g 4a vs Rosemont and Mike Ryan 3g 1a limited minutes. Big game upcoming for Camden at Salisbury on Sunday.
Big games this weekend
Friday:
Stockton vs Catholic
W&L vs Berry
Gettysburg vs York (Is York back under new coach Evan Scheffey?)
Lycoming vs Scranton (Both cannot afford to start 0-2)
VA Wesleyan vs Christopher Newport
Covenant vs Montclair State
Saturday:
Rowan vs St. Lawrence
Ohio Northern vs Wheaton (MA)
Rutgers-Newark vs Rochester
Hobart vs Plattsburgh State
Merchant Marines vs Salisbury
Dickinson vs Etown
Haverford vs Steven's
Messiah vs Carnegie Mellon
Wash U vs Wheaton (IL)
Brandeis vs Trinity (TX)
Sunday:
Morrisville State vs Rochester
Kean vs Swarthmore
Thomas More vs Case Western
Chicago vs Rose-Hulman
Heidelberg vs Kenyon
Lycoming vs York
Rutgers-Camden vs Salisbury
Rutgers-Newark vs Cortland St
Denison vs Emory
Ohio Northern vs Babson
It is great to see good D3 teams starting to play each other.
Quote from: backyarddawg on September 03, 2015, 02:43:29 PM
Big games this weekend
Friday:
Stockton vs Catholic
W&L vs Berry
Gettysburg vs York (Is York back under new coach Evan Scheffey?)
Lycoming vs Scranton (Both cannot afford to start 0-2)
VA Wesleyan vs Christopher Newport
Covenant vs Montclair State
Saturday:
Rowan vs St. Lawrence
Ohio Northern vs Wheaton (MA)
Rutgers-Newark vs Rochester
Hobart vs Plattsburgh State
Merchant Marines vs Salisbury
Dickinson vs Etown
Haverford vs Steven's
Messiah vs Carnegie Mellon
Wash U vs Wheaton (IL)
Brandeis vs Trinity (TX)
Sunday:
Morrisville State vs Rochester
Kean vs Swarthmore
Thomas More vs Case Western
Chicago vs Rose-Hulman
Heidelberg vs Kenyon
Lycoming vs York
Rutgers-Camden vs Salisbury
Rutgers-Newark vs Cortland St
Denison vs Emory
Ohio Northern vs Babson
It is great to see good D3 teams starting to play each other.
Lycoming has a busy weekend. I was pleased with Scranton's effort at Haverford.
Most interested in Covenant at MSU, Messiah at CMU, CNU vs VWU, and Rowan vs SLU. You don't often see NJAC playing Liberty League.
I heard Camden was going to play Oneonta St this year, but could not fit them in the schedule. Playing them early on would not have been a wise choice, but it certainly would have bolstered their OWP-OOWP.
South Atlantic looks to be a race with the #1 ranking moving like a hot potato.
Camden also has CNU two weeks out, and by then we might see some separation from the pack...
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on September 03, 2015, 03:10:11 PM
Most interested in Covenant at MSU, Messiah at CMU, CNU vs VWU, and Rowan vs SLU. You don't often see NJAC playing Liberty League.
I heard Camden was going to play Oneonta St this year, but could not fit them in the schedule. Playing them early on would not have been a wise choice, but it certainly would have bolstered their OWP-OOWP.
South Atlantic looks to be a race with the #1 ranking moving like a hot potato.
Camden also has CNU two weeks out, and by then we might see some separation from the pack...
Rutgers Camden and Oneonta St will play anyone anywhere. Both coaches email without fail the top teams in NewEngland, NewYork, PA and NJ every year to request to play. They even usually will travel 2 years in a row. These coaches have no fear and I like that. Unfortunately most teams do not take them up on their request
For instance Brandeis:
Instead of taking a trip to Texas to play 2 good teams why not if you are willing to play top teams have Oneonta or Rutgers Camden come to them and play. Would still be considered In-Region and boast their SOS and OWP stats just as much as the other 2 games. Now usually it is hard to squeeze in new games with new teams because you have your set schedule year in and year out with teams you normally play out of conference but the usual time that works best for both new teams is the first 2 weekends of each season.
All that praise for Camden and I actually just went to their schedule for 2015 and I am a bit disappointed. A couple Centennial games and 1 or 2 tough road games but generally that out of conference schedule doesn't do much for me
One more thing: I am sure someone has talked / answered this question back in 2014 but does anyone have any information on why Ludwig left York? Was he forced out or did he want to foucs on club / development teams. Did he change professions?...Just curious
Quote from: Mr.Right on September 03, 2015, 03:39:47 PM
For instance Brandeis:
Instead of taking a trip to Texas to play 2 good teams why not if you are willing to play top teams have Oneonta or Rutgers Camden come to them and play. Would still be considered In-Region and boast their SOS and OWP stats just as much as the other 2 games. Now usually it is hard to squeeze in new games with new teams because you have your set schedule year in and year out with teams you normally play out of conference but the usual time that works best for both new teams is the first 2 weekends of each season.
Especially since Brandeis already does a ton of traveling with UAA schedule so hard to argue they are making the trip to add some diversity of experience for the student-athletes (like Oberlin going to the West Coast). That said, hard to argue with Brandeis on difficulty of schedule. If memory serves they were over .600 last year.
Quote from: Mr.Right on September 03, 2015, 03:45:42 PM
All that praise for Camden and I actually just went to their schedule for 2015 and I am a bit disappointed. A couple Centennial games and 1 or 2 tough road games but generally that out of conference schedule doesn't do much for me
Possibly a strategic move in the mathematical sense here? Their OWP crushed Salisbury and they beat Newark twice, but missed the dance just as they were peaking. Playing a numbers game with their schedule to be near the magical .580 OWP with fewer blemishes?
I agree with you on it being not as strong as seasons passed, but the key match ups vs Salisbury and CNU are vital to their tournament resume.
Quote from: Mr.Right on September 03, 2015, 03:47:34 PM
One more thing: I am sure someone has talked / answered this question back in 2014 but does anyone have any information on why Ludwig left York? Was he forced out or did he want to foucs on club / development teams. Did he change professions?...Just curious
I believe this article from the York Dispatch sums it up.
After 16 successful seasons, Ludwig resigns as York College men's soccer coach
By JOHN WALK
http://www.yorkdispatch.com/ci_27143753/
Hmmmm the article was a little thin on details but certainly one of the more bizarre stories in D3 this past year.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on September 03, 2015, 05:34:50 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on September 03, 2015, 03:45:42 PM
All that praise for Camden and I actually just went to their schedule for 2015 and I am a bit disappointed. A couple Centennial games and 1 or 2 tough road games but generally that out of conference schedule doesn't do much for me
Possibly a strategic move in the mathematical sense here? Their OWP crushed Salisbury and they beat Newark twice, but missed the dance just as they were peaking. Playing a numbers game with their schedule to be near the magical .580 OWP with fewer blemishes?
I agree with you on it being not as strong as seasons passed, but the key match ups vs Salisbury and CNU are vital to their tournament resume.
Excellent point..Last year Camden had a great resume but had 1-2 extra losses that hurt them in the end. Also, a good point about going head to head with some of the South Atlantic competition which will look favorably to the committee if they get results.
Game of the Day: KZoo at OWU
Tomorrow is a D3 fan's feast: Messiah @ Carnegie Mellon, Brandeis @ Trinity (TX), Haverford @ Stevens, Calvin @ Gordon, Newark at Rochester, Ohio Northern @ Wheaton (MA), NC Wesleyan @ Lynchburg, Covenant @ Centre, Wash U @ Wheaton (Ill)
Brandeis tied with Hardin-Simmons 1-1 at half. Cowboys came out much stronger and took a 1-0 lead five minutes in. Judges equalized in the 38th through Chris Bradley. Apparently H-S has been down to 10, a red in the 26th (I saw the ref take out the red card but he didn't point it at anyone so I assumed it was a mistake. Guess not).
Update: 'Deis wins it 2-1 in 2OT. Bradley taken down from behind in the box, J. Ocel scored the PK. Looked a foul to me, but you can never be sure.
Gordon College quietly off to a 2-0 start. They will be challenged tonight as they face nationally ranked Calvin College. This is one of several games to keep an eye on today. Others include. Wheaton IL vs Washington Univ and Messiah vs Carnegie Mellon.
The rough start for Wheaton (MA) continues. Ohio Northern wins 3-1. If ONU can get another good New England win tomorrow against Babson that will go a long way in heading them in the right direction.
SLU continues to roll. 4-0 win against Rowan. Freshman are playing superb.
Noticed Steven's won 3-2 vs Haverford. Watched some of the game and felt like an NCAA game and thought Haverford had the better of play.
RUC good win vs St Mary's -- Mike Ryan continues to score goals.
Etown good win on the young season 2-1 over Dickinson.
Stockton 3 W&L 0-- Stockton 3-0 with wins at Catholic and neutral vs W&L
Sewanee gets first win of year for young coach Pacella.
F&M in a fight w Alvernia 0-0
Messiah vs CMU early 0-0
Cannot wait for Brandeis vs Trinity later
When was last time someone scored 3 goals against Messiah? Game far from over. CMU up 3-2 with 29 min to go.
ECSU just beat Muhlenberg with under a minute left in 2nd OT.
Messiah with constant pressure, tied game 3-3 on bad CMU giveaway just outside box. Looking like a 4-3 win for Messiah in reg or OT. Messiah is better, more dominant team but CMU is playing them straight up and getting their chances.
WOW!
WashU up 2-0 on Wheaton early in the second half. Love the Wheaton announcers!
Hollingsworth PK narrows the gap to 2-1 with 31' to play.
Trinity shellshocks Brandeis with 2 goals in first 4 minutes.
Gulley helps Wheaton get back into it 2-2 with 3 min to play. Nice header.
Laser strike by Perez wins it in OT for Wash U against Wheaton.
Nationally ranked #2 and #3 fall on the same night...
(#2)Wheaton (IL) -- 2
Wash U -- 3
(#3)Messiah -- 3
Carnegie Mellon -- 4
According to the Messiah website, the last time Messiah allowed 4 goals was 17 years ago.
Plus Carthage knocks off Wash U 2-1 in the closing seconds of the game the night before.
We may be setting up for a banner year in the Great Lakes region.
CMU beats Messiah and is 3-0.
OWU gets by in OT last night against KZoo and looks to be coasting today.
Kenyon blasts Heidelberg 4-0 and is 3-0.
Case and Thomas More deadlocked at 2-2 last I checked and both came in undefeated.
Denison beat Emory today at Emory 2-1.
Ohio Northern stumbled losing with 2 minutes left in 2nd OT against Babson after outshooting the Beavers and nearly scoring twice a minute before the Babson goal. Saw about a third of this one, which looked like a chippy, almost dirty game that was very choppy. Important win for Babson after the ECSU loss.
And haven't even gotten to DePauw, John Carroll, etc.
Kenyon is looking a little stronger each game. Amolo has 5 goals already in limited minutes. The frosh look to be for real and will provide great depth. Watch the freshman defender's goal on YouTube later tonight (a laser from 30 yards out and probably best Kenyon goal I've seen in 5 years of following). Also very good news that Glassman made his first appearance today, only playing about 10 minutes but hopefully will be close to 100% after another handful of games.
CMU @ Kenyon next Saturday should be a good one.
Austin Juniet with the OT winner for TMC over Case!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIcZO2SQh1Y
Does anyone know William Webb from CMU? Three goals and an assist against Messiah (7 points). I wonder if that has ever been done before. He already has 7 goals and 2 assists in CMU's first three games.
Would love to hear people's opinion on the first weekend?
Surprises for me:
CMU 3-0
E-town 3-0 (heard they have a frosh who could be Skips best recruit in years).
Stockton 3-0 (Widener Catholic W&L)
This year looks wide open with NESCAC soccer starting Tuesday.
What in the world is Calvin doing playing and beating Great Lakes Christian 14-0???
Wheaton @ Loras tonight. Early season instant classic.
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 08, 2015, 06:37:38 PM
What in the world is Calvin doing playing and beating Great Lakes Christian 14-0???
I have no insider knowledge, but it is only 60? miles away and shares a similar mission (not sure, but it may even share a denominational affiliation).
(Just checked the GLC website; while the GLC coach has no direct tie to Calvin, he was head coach at Tri-State (now Trine) University, which is in the same conference as Calvin. So perhaps a coach-to-coach favor in scheduling?)
Loras up 1-0. Forgot about central time. Already in 2nd half.
2-0 Loras....thru Rummelhart.
Loras content to clear the ball and maintain their 2-0 lead. Wheaton hasn't really been a threat the entire match.
There it is folks, #2 Wheaton proves to me no match for the Duhawks "swarm"
OK Boys, how high does Loras climb in the rankings and how low do Wheaton (IL) fall?
Loras at least up to #2.
Loras tied #1, IMO. Unless Tufts gets a draw
Wheaton should fall to #5 in region if not lower
I was at the Loras-Wheaton game and Wheaton is not even close to being the same team they were last year. I was thinking this would be a down year for Loras but they are surprising me. I can't imagine them being the #2 team in the country, though.
Tufts
Trinity
Loras
Toss up with Trinity win over Brandeis... Gut says Loras, though
Quote from: Dubuquer on September 08, 2015, 10:21:07 PM
I was at the Loras-Wheaton game and Wheaton is not even close to being the same team they were last year. I was thinking this would be a down year for Loras but they are surprising me. I can't imagine them being the #2 team in the country, though.
Dubuquer -
On paper Wheaton returned a ton of talent and brought in a swarm of freshmen from around the country. Did Loras simply have more talent? Did Loras out play/out hustle Wheaton? Was Loras more organized? Interested in your first hand perspective.
I watched the match and my opinion is that Loras simply out hustled Wheaton from whistle to whistle. The ref definitely let them play for stretches, some bad missed calls on both sides. Would have netted another goal for Loras if the calls were made. PK foul for Bradley and a hand ball in the box on Wheaton gives Loras potentially 2 more, but also missed a handball that Rummelhart put away.
Talent wise Wheaton is stacked except they don't seem to play with any passion or belief. Loras's all in all the time swarm mentality and the fact that they would lay down and die for their teammates and coaches is a huge reason for their continued success regardless of their individual talent level. Hard to beat a team with an agenda.
Saying Wheaton doesn't play with passion or belief after seeing them play a 90 minute match tonight is a little too judgmental for my taste. To each their own though.
If rankings did come out this week I'm sure Wheaton would have moved down to the 8-10 spots. Does Loras really deserve to move to #1 or 2 with a win over a presumed #8-10 team? No doubt they are good, but that's a lofty jump.
"And the fact that they would lay down and die for their teammates and coaches is a huge reason for their continued success...." Now I'm sure you're trying to paint a picture that they all like each other and get along great and have phenomenal team camaraderie, which, isn't all that surprising. I'd say most top programs have that same kind of locker room.
Watched the match as well. Definitely agree with you Kickin, it doesn't matter how much skill you have, if your passion isn't up to par with Loras'.... good luck hanging with em. Goes back to the old adage, hard work beats talent when talent fails to work hard (not to say Loras isn't talented!).
That being said, I did enjoy portions of Wheaton's play. Taking on Loras at the Rock Bowl is no walk in the park. They made the field big in possession and their chemistry seems somewhat present. If they can figure out the final piece, the "gotta wanna, do it before I don't" mentality I believe they can become a well oiled machine poised to make some noise. It's still early. Thought #8 Elliot Borge played well, thought Hollingsworth was quiet.
1. Tufts (team typically stays there until a blemish)
2. Trinity (quality win over Brandeis)
3. Loras. (Slightly more votes due to SOS).
4. Oneonta St
5. Ohio Wesleyan
6. F&M
7. Christopher Newport
8. Calvin
9. CMU (slightly bumps Kenyon solely based on Messiah W)
10. Montclair St
ECSU shooting their load out the gate with 3 quality wins over Babson, Mules, and Wesleyan. They are deserving of a top 10 ranking based on results alone.
Up for debate, but they would be my NSCAA rankings at this point
I didn't have roster in front of me to see who was who for the Thunder but I think Loras had the better athletes and played with more intensity. Players on opposing teams struggle facing the swarming play of Loras and I could see a team with some youth and inexperience getting shell shocked, especially facing the swarm that early in the season before they build the organization that a team like Wheaton usually has later on in October and November. I usually think of Wheaton as being a pretty organized, patient and disciplined team (admittedly I haven't seen them a lot) but it looked like Loras forced them into playing the Loras style and Wheaton never got into any rhythm. Wheaton's Hollingsworth was dangerous at times but was largely held in check for most of the game, which I'm sure contributed to the Thunder's failure to get anything going. I agree that the referee had a lot of no-calls and that potentially affected the game. With a few more whistles I think Loras might have netted another.
I absolutely love the way Loras plays, they are an easy team to root for. I wish more teams were as committed to working that hard and never taking plays/ minutes off
Quote from: Midwest Soccer on September 08, 2015, 11:31:51 PM
Saying Wheaton doesn't play with passion or belief after seeing them play a 90 minute match tonight is a little too judgmental for my taste. To each their own though.
If rankings did come out this week I'm sure Wheaton would have moved down to the 8-10 spots. Does Loras really deserve to move to #1 or 2 with a win over a presumed #8-10 team? No doubt they are good, but that's a lofty jump.
"And the fact that they would lay down and die for their teammates and coaches is a huge reason for their continued success...." Now I'm sure you're trying to paint a picture that they all like each other and get along great and have phenomenal team camaraderie, which, isn't all that surprising. I'd say most top programs have that same kind of locker room.
Recall OWU's start last year, having had to replace 11 seniors. That #1 ranked senior team loses first round to Rose-Hulman, at home; the poor starting 2014 team goes to the final four. The X factor of programs that have a history and tradition of winning is that even a team of freshman will "figure it out". These early losses become teaching moments for the coaching staff.
http://herosports.com/college-rankings/d3-mens-soccer-rankings/
Bennett Rankings.
Quote from: Domino1195 on September 09, 2015, 11:43:45 AM
Quote from: Midwest Soccer on September 08, 2015, 11:31:51 PM
Saying Wheaton doesn't play with passion or belief after seeing them play a 90 minute match tonight is a little too judgmental for my taste. To each their own though.
If rankings did come out this week I'm sure Wheaton would have moved down to the 8-10 spots. Does Loras really deserve to move to #1 or 2 with a win over a presumed #8-10 team? No doubt they are good, but that's a lofty jump.
"And the fact that they would lay down and die for their teammates and coaches is a huge reason for their continued success...." Now I'm sure you're trying to paint a picture that they all like each other and get along great and have phenomenal team camaraderie, which, isn't all that surprising. I'd say most top programs have that same kind of locker room.
Recall OWU's start last year, having had to replace 11 seniors. That #1 ranked senior team loses first round to Rose-Hulman, at home; the poor starting 2014 team goes to the final four. The X factor of programs that have a history and tradition of winning is that even a team of freshman will "figure it out". These early losses become teaching moments for the coaching staff.
Well said Domino. Same with Messiah in 2008, which in my opinion, is still their most impressive National Championship considering the way they navigated the tournament, winning every game on the road, OT vs Medaille, 1-0 vs Rochester, OT vs Montclair, OT vs CNU, 3 or 4-0 over Loras, PK's over Stevens. I believe that was the last season they lost a regular season game in their conference.
The almost offsides goal vs Medaille, Binger the savior in dying moments vs CNU, and Blossey stepping in and stopping 3 straight PKs.
I don't want to get too off topic but was Pezon's goal actually offside?
He played it forward to no one and then ran around the whole defense and beat the GK and slid it home? I may be wrong though
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kda6u_Y-W10
4:50 in...
Pezon plays the ball in the area of Messiah player who does not attempt to collect (but the ball was definitely played to him). Every player on Medaille paused, but I would not call that offsides...
Williams up 1-0 at the half v Oneonta...Williams has had some very nice chances in this game so far. Oneonta I was not impressed with at all in the 1st half. I know they lost 2 of their best players to graduation but I was expecting a little more firepower. Let's see if we see that in the 2nd half.
Can't get Williams video to go live....any hints?
2nd half I cannot watch either...
7 goals in 1st half with Newport and NC Wesleyan and none in 2nd with 13 to go....4-3 CNU.
Rankings seem a little bizarre. Don't see any reason CNU would be #1. CMU at #3 after Muskingum, LaRoche and a very fortunate win against Messiah? Maybe break into top 12-15 but not #3. Salisbury at #8? And great start for ECSU but not sold yet with very tight wins vs Muhlenberg and Wesleyan that easily could have gone the other way.
Tufts and Loras should be #1 and #2.....Trinity (maybe). I understand poll doesn't include games last night.
Congrats Mr.Right! Looks like Sullivan knew what he was doing.
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 09, 2015, 05:54:13 PM
Congrats Mr.Right! Looks like Sullivan knew what he was doing.
Well I only saw the 1st half but I thought Williams looked good. I also like the fact that they are still trying to play futbol as I thought with Russo's departure that might fade away a bit but they seemed to have some good combinations. Very good win for November. I will say I think Oneonta is not as strong as 2014
Stevens and TCNJ tied 1 1 at the half
IDK, looks like Oneonta has most of their stars from last year back, and I'm they have at least a few frosh. Great win for Williams and a bit of a message to the rest of the NESCAC and any of the doubters (like myself) from a national perspective.
Wheaton (MA) was in huge trouble with 2 losses already and down 3-1 to WNEC but came back to win 4-3 in OT.
Last I checked Scranton was handling Muhlenberg.
Ohio Northern outshoots Wittenberg 13-1 in 1st half and were down 1-0.
At least on paper OWU had a little more trouble with Otterbein than I would have expected.
I remember Trenton St / TCNJ in the mid 90's as an absolute bear..Great Jersey toughness, some dirty play and athleticism.
BTW...Excellent new resource on this site with the NCAA Tournament History and Brackets for each year...I have been trying to find that stuff for a long time
First Regular season D3Soccer Poll:
September 9, 2015
D3soccer.com Men's Top 25, Week 1
Through games of Monday, September 7, 2015
# School (1st Pl. Votes) Record Pts. Prev.
1 Chris. Newport (2) 3-0-0 840 —
2 Oneonta State (1) 3-0-0 835 —
3 Carnegie Mellon (3) 3-0-0 833 —
4 Trinity (Texas) (2) 3-0-0 825 —
5 Ohio Wesleyan 3-0-0 731 —
6 Tufts (3) D.N.P. 688 —
7 St. Lawrence 3-0-0 673 —
8 Salisbury 3-0-0 663 —
9 Kenyon 3-0-0 652 —
10 Loras 2-0-0 549 —
11 Montclair State 4-0-0 548 —
12 Franklin & Marshall 3-0-0 462 —
13 Eastern Connecticut 2-0-0 457 —
14 Messiah 1-1-0 438 —
15 Elizabethtown 3-0-0 382 —
16 Chicago 3-0-0 369 —
17 Whitworth 2-0-0 356 —
18 Brandeis 2-1-0 312 —
19 UW-Whitewater 4-0-0 287 —
20 Wheaton (Ill.) 1-1-0 274 —
21 Amherst D.N.P. 207 —
22 Stevens 2-0-0 195 —
23 Geneseo State 3-0-0 175 —
24 Denison 3-0-0 132 —
25 Merchant Marine 2-1-0 131 —
Receiving Votes: Washington U. 130, Rutgers-Camden 124, Thomas More 113, Gustavus Adolphus 102, Occidental 87, WPI 84, Drew 80, Redlands 76, TCNJ 73, Haverford 62, North Park 58, Stockton 58, Calvin 51, Virginia Wesleyan 47, Frostburg State 44, RPI 33, Case Western Reserve 29, Wheaton (Mass.) 25, Bowdoin 25, Wentworth 22, Muhlenberg 22, Milwaukee Engineering 22, Dickinson 18, Birmingham-Southern 18, Ohio Northern 18, Cortland State 15, Trinity (Conn.) 11, Texas-Dallas 7, Methodist 7, St. Scholastica 4, St. Thomas 4
Quote from: Mr.Right on September 09, 2015, 08:56:24 PM
BTW...Excellent new resource on this site with the NCAA Tournament History and Brackets for each year...I have been trying to find that stuff for a long time
You mustn't have been looking at the right place. ;-) They have been available on the NCAA's websites for at least a decade and a half. Granted, every couple years they'd change where they had them such that it seemed like a scavenger hunt in which when you couldn't find them you never knew if it was because you didn't look at the right places or because they were even further behind in getting the new year's records books updated and posted. The NCAA has lot of great resources. Too bad they don't make it a little easier to find (and why this stuff is usually only available thru the ncaa.org site instead of the ncaa.com site, I'll never know), although it's been much better on the latest incarnation of their sites.
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 09, 2015, 08:29:21 PM
At least on paper OWU had a little more trouble with Otterbein than I would have expected.
Only caught the second half, but not much in this game. OWU played Saturday-Sunday and looked tired, Otterbein posed little threat (0 SOG). Otterbein gives OWU a game about every other year - tough today, smoked last year's Final Four team, tied 2009 #1 team, etc. Probably a huge game for the program - the schools are only 16 miles apart, plus lingering motivation for Otterbein's staff from better teams in the past.
As for the rankings, I'm not privy to how everything gets compiled, but the lack of #1 votes (less than 15) makes me think the poll might take a week to really reflect voters' opinions. More games also means more data, so I'd expect some pretty drastic movement in the next week or two.
Quote from: ECSUalum on September 09, 2015, 10:05:59 PM
First Regular season D3Soccer Poll:
September 9, 2015
D3soccer.com Men's Top 25, Week 1
Through games of Monday, September 7, 2015
# School (1st Pl. Votes) Record Pts. Prev.
1 Chris. Newport (2) 3-0-0 840 —
2 Oneonta State (1) 3-0-0 835 —
3 Carnegie Mellon (3) 3-0-0 833 —
4 Trinity (Texas) (2) 3-0-0 825 —
5 Ohio Wesleyan 3-0-0 731 —
6 Tufts (3) D.N.P. 688 —
7 St. Lawrence 3-0-0 673 —
8 Salisbury 3-0-0 663 —
9 Kenyon 3-0-0 652 —
10 Loras 2-0-0 549 —
11 Montclair State 4-0-0 548 —
12 Franklin & Marshall 3-0-0 462 —
13 Eastern Connecticut 2-0-0 457 —
14 Messiah 1-1-0 438 —
15 Elizabethtown 3-0-0 382 —
16 Chicago 3-0-0 369 —
17 Whitworth 2-0-0 356 —
18 Brandeis 2-1-0 312 —
19 UW-Whitewater 4-0-0 287 —
20 Wheaton (Ill.) 1-1-0 274 —
21 Amherst D.N.P. 207 —
22 Stevens 2-0-0 195 —
23 Geneseo State 3-0-0 175 —
24 Denison 3-0-0 132 —
25 Merchant Marine 2-1-0 131 —
Receiving Votes: Washington U. 130, Rutgers-Camden 124, Thomas More 113, Gustavus Adolphus 102, Occidental 87, WPI 84, Drew 80, Redlands 76, TCNJ 73, Haverford 62, North Park 58, Stockton 58, Calvin 51, Virginia Wesleyan 47, Frostburg State 44, RPI 33, Case Western Reserve 29, Wheaton (Mass.) 25, Bowdoin 25, Wentworth 22, Muhlenberg 22, Milwaukee Engineering 22, Dickinson 18, Birmingham-Southern 18, Ohio Northern 18, Cortland State 15, Trinity (Conn.) 11, Texas-Dallas 7, Methodist 7, St. Scholastica 4, St. Thomas 4
Anybody know how they conduct this poll? Is it coaches or people that run the site or a mix of both? Thanks!
Quote from: Ryan Harmanis on September 09, 2015, 11:55:18 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 09, 2015, 08:29:21 PM
At least on paper OWU had a little more trouble with Otterbein than I would have expected.
Only caught the second half, but not much in this game. OWU played Saturday-Sunday and looked tired, Otterbein posed little threat (0 SOG). Otterbein gives OWU a game about every other year - tough today, smoked last year's Final Four team, tied 2009 #1 team, etc. Probably a huge game for the program - the schools are only 16 miles apart, plus lingering motivation for Otterbein's staff from better teams in the past.
I've seen Otterbein twice now - and I can't figure a thing out looking at comparative scores right now. Watched them at Wittenburg - who gave ONU a decent game yesterday. Saw Dension's squad in the spring - didn't look very good - now they are 24th? To your point - we need a few more games to sort things out.
Does anyone know the status of the proposal by the NCAA I think last year to save $$$$. Some of the items on the table to be discussed were cutting NCAA Pool C bids to 3 instead of 19 like it was about 15 years ago, cutting max games allowed to play , cutting mid-week games, etc etc....
MidAtlanticFan,
Anybody know how they conduct this poll? Is it coaches or people that run the site or a mix of both? Thanks!
The D3soccer.com Top 25 is voted on by a panel of coaches, Sports Information Directors and D3soccer.com staff, and is published weekly
Quote from: Mr.Right on September 10, 2015, 12:34:26 PM
Does anyone know the status of the proposal by the NCAA I think last year to save $$$$. Some of the items on the table to be discussed were cutting NCAA Pool C bids to 3 instead of 19 like it was about 15 years ago, cutting max games allowed to play , cutting mid-week games, etc etc....
E-town finished 15-3 in 2000... Lost to Drew 3-1 and Messiah twice (both by 1 goal) and failed to make the tournament only watch Messiah win it ALL. Mind boggling! Back then, you had to pray the big hitters won their respective conferences.
First Round - Bye -
Regional Semifinals Grantham, PA Carnegie Mellon University Messiah 4-0
Regional Finals Grantham, PA Drew College Messiah 3-0
Quarterfinals Hamilton, NY Hamilton College Messiah 3-0
Semifinals Rowan, NJ Linfield College Messiah 3-2 (the Hayden Woodworth comeback).
Finals Rowan, NJ Rowan University Messiah 2-0
Quote from: ECSUalum on September 10, 2015, 01:50:00 PM
MidAtlanticFan,
Anybody know how they conduct this poll? Is it coaches or people that run the site or a mix of both? Thanks!
The D3soccer.com Top 25 is voted on by a panel of coaches, Sports Information Directors and D3soccer.com staff, and is published weekly
ECSU:
Thanks for your input! Was always curious. Explains why some teams are always in the top 25 no matter what their record may be! Happens in any pole though. I have a feeling there will be a lot of changes each week based off the start of the season. Everyone is beating up on everyone at the moment! Should be a fun year.
Ummm this is a normal occurrence every year
Quote from: Mr.Right on September 10, 2015, 04:39:23 PM
Ummm this is a normal occurrence every year
Messiah losing in the first week is a normal occurrence? #2 and #3 losing on the same day happens every year? I guess I don't watch enough soccer then...
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 10, 2015, 04:32:18 PM
Quote from: ECSUalum on September 10, 2015, 01:50:00 PM
MidAtlanticFan,
Anybody know how they conduct this poll? Is it coaches or people that run the site or a mix of both? Thanks!
The D3soccer.com Top 25 is voted on by a panel of coaches, Sports Information Directors and D3soccer.com staff, and is published weekly
ECSU:
Thanks for your input! Was always curious. Explains why some teams are always in the top 25 no matter what their record may be! Happens in any pole though. I have a feeling there will be a lot of changes each week based off the start of the season. Everyone is beating up on everyone at the moment! Should be a fun year.
Yes Mid Atlantic, The early polls are more for team egos than as an indication of team strength! The only important poll is the final poll, but they are fun to watch.
Quote from: Mr.Right on September 10, 2015, 12:34:26 PM
Does anyone know the status of the proposal by the NCAA I think last year to save $$$$. Some of the items on the table to be discussed were cutting NCAA Pool C bids to 3 instead of 19 like it was about 15 years ago, cutting max games allowed to play , cutting mid-week games, etc etc....
None of that was even close to being on the table. Cutting the max number of games wouldn't save the NCAA any money anyway -- it only costs the schools money, not the NCAA.
There is a movement to cut the number of contests but it doesn't save the NCAA any money and it wasn't proposed by the NCAA -- that's not how NCAA legislation works, even. Legislation is proposed by schools and conferences and voted on by schools. It's just the NCAA that enforces those rules. It was withdrawn at the NCAA convention in January (ill-conceived and doomed to fail, in my opinion). The schools are reconsidering the notion and will likely come back with a more targeted notion that doesn't simply cut 10% of contests from every sport (other than cross country and football, and 4% from basketball).
The problem is, there are probably a couple of sports that could withstand a cutback (looking at you, baseball) and others that don't need it at all. But nobody wants to try to make the politically unpopular decision of targeting a sport or two and instead they tried to just cut a wide range of sports.
There is no movement to cut back the size of the NCAA Tournament.
Got a good one going between Capital and Thomas More. Cap up 1-0 at half. TMC scores in first 20 secs of 2nd, Cap scores another minute later to go back up 2-1, and now TMC ahead 3-2.
And now Cap down to 10 men for goal scoring denial.
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 10, 2015, 05:37:04 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on September 10, 2015, 04:39:23 PM
Ummm this is a normal occurrence every year
Messiah losing in the first week is a normal occurrence? #2 and #3 losing on the same day happens every year? I guess I don't watch enough soccer then...
Mid-Atlantic Fan,
You are absolutely correct. What is happening is far from "a normal occurrence every year".
Thanks for your input! Was always curious. Explains why some teams are always in the top 25 no matter what their record may be! Happens in any pole though. I have a feeling there will be a lot of changes each week based off the start of the season. Everyone is beating up on everyone at the moment! Should be a fun year.
That was your quote. Where is there anything talking about Messiah, #2 teams,#3 teams,etc? I am responding to the fact that every year and every week there are usually ALOT of changes in the TOP 25 POLL..THIS YEAR WILL BE NO DIFFERENT THAN ANY OTHER.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on September 10, 2015, 05:46:07 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on September 10, 2015, 12:34:26 PM
Does anyone know the status of the proposal by the NCAA I think last year to save $$$$. Some of the items on the table to be discussed were cutting NCAA Pool C bids to 3 instead of 19 like it was about 15 years ago, cutting max games allowed to play , cutting mid-week games, etc etc....
None of that was even close to being on the table. Cutting the max number of games wouldn't save the NCAA any money anyway -- it only costs the schools money, not the NCAA.
There is a movement to cut the number of contests but it doesn't save the NCAA any money and it wasn't proposed by the NCAA -- that's not how NCAA legislation works, even. Legislation is proposed by schools and conferences and voted on by schools. It's just the NCAA that enforces those rules. It was withdrawn at the NCAA convention in January (ill-conceived and doomed to fail, in my opinion). The schools are reconsidering the notion and will likely come back with a more targeted notion that doesn't simply cut 10% of contests from every sport (other than cross country and football, and 4% from basketball).
The problem is, there are probably a couple of sports that could withstand a cutback (looking at you, baseball) and others that don't need it at all. But nobody wants to try to make the politically unpopular decision of targeting a sport or two and instead they tried to just cut a wide range of sports.
There is no movement to cut back the size of the NCAA Tournament.
THERE WAS A MOVEMENT TO CUT....THIS WAS ON THE NCAA SITE..In 2014 the D3 Presidents council were endorsing FIVE recommendations from the D3 Management Council that would cut approx $2 million from the divisions championship budget. Among the changes were increased fees for D3 members and DECREASED fields for NCAA D3 tournaments.
The Division III Presidents Council endorsed five recommendations from the Division III Management Council that will cut a projected $2.17 million from the division's championships budget. All of the measures pertain to championships travel policies; four of them are effective immediately. The proposal that necessitates a three-day window between championships selections and the first date of competition will go into effect in 2015-16.
All of the measures pertain to championships travel policies; four of them are effective immediately. The proposal that necessitates a three-day window between championships selections and the first date of competition will go into effect in 2015-16.
The proposals were initially crafted via collaboration between the Division III Championships and Strategic Planning and Finance committees. While the cuts will help combat a projected budget shortfall of $2.5 million in the 2014-15 academic year, the council noted at its Aug. 7 meeting in Indianapolis that these are only preliminary steps in the long march to achieving a balanced budget.
The Division III Presidents Advisory Group discussed ways to balance the budget over the long term when it convened on the eve of the council meeting. The group, which is composed of representatives from each of Division III's 43 conferences, endorsed the recommended championships reductions. Some members also suggested examining cuts to non-championships spending, which is primarily composed of grant programs and accounts for 25 percent of the division's budget.
The advisory group also endorsed the concept of relying on membership funding to support championships and other programs through a dues increase or targeted championships assessment. Membership dues, currently $900 a year per school and $450 per conference, haven't been adjusted since 1985 and are far lower than schools are accustomed to paying for membership in other organizations.
The advisory group stressed that presidents would likely be amenable to providing increased annual funding, either at a flat rate or at rates that slide based on criteria such as enrollment, school budget or size of athletics program. With approximately 500 dues-paying schools and conferences in the division, a targeted rate hike could make a significant impact on the efforts to balance the budget, advisory group members argued.
The budget discussion will continue this fall, leading up to the Division III Issues Forum at the 2015 Convention. That session will include a comprehensive review of the division's budget resources, policies and process, as well as short-term and long-term budget options identified by the championships and finance committees including the benefits and drawbacks of adjusting the division's championships access ratio.
"We're going to have to make several adjustments," said Alan Cureton, president of the University of Northwestern – St. Paul, vice chair of the presidents council and chair of the strategic planning and finance committee. "So when we asked the presidents advisory group, they threw out a variety of options. ...We're going to take a really hard look at everything, but we also want feedback from the Association and the membership as to what they think we should do."
On-campus evaluations
In July, the management council opted not to sponsor a legislative recommendation from the Division III Recruiting Working Group that would permit on-campus athletic evaluations. The management council made the decision despite encouragement from the membership, via survey and straw poll results, that such a proposal be brought to the 2015 Convention floor.
The presidents council voted to sponsor the legislation, though it did not offer its full support for the rule. Those in favor argued it would make life easier for coaches, while those in opposition noted that those burdens, namely the time and money required for travel, would be passed to prospective student-athletes. Though council members didn't formally endorse the proposal, they sponsored it in order to ensure it would be added to the 2015 Convention legislative agenda, fostering discussion among members and, ultimately, giving them the opportunity to decide the rule's fate.
"The presidents council can see the pros and cons of both sides, but we're really interested in what the membership thinks," Cureton said. "And we have no idea which way it is going to go, but this is the beauty of our Association. It's membership-driven, so we want to know what they think about this."
Reduction in number of contests
The council voted to co-sponsor proposed legislation – initially sponsored by the Old Dominion Athletic Conference and the Centennial Conference – that would reduce the maximum number of in-season contests (or dates of competition, depending on the sport) by up to 10 percent. The reduction would apply to nearly every sport, save for those with only a handful of contests such as football (10) and cross country (9).
The conferences brought the proposal forward in hopes of limiting costs and ensuring that student-athletes can devote more time to academics and other extracurricular endeavors. The proposal wouldn't shorten the overall length of the playing season, but simply eliminate a few contests – particularly those played midweek that disrupt classes – within the current timeframes allotted for sports' regular seasons.
The presidents council debated the merits of the proposal and, ultimately, voted to co-sponsor it, arguing that it would be beneficial to student-athletes because it would ease their athletics burdens.
"Our concern as presidents was the fact that students were being drawn away during the week," Cureton said. "The idea is to protect the students' time so that they have what they need in the classroom and aren't spending it out on the road or away from campus because of athletic contests."
Other actions
The council sponsored convention legislation that would add women's sand volleyball as a sport in Division III and establish a National Collegiate Championship for the sport. The first sand volleyball championship would tentatively be scheduled to be held in 2016. The council noted that National Collegiate Championships do not have an impact on Division III's budget.
Currently, schools hoping to join Division III must take part in a five-year membership process, which includes an exploratory year and four provisional years. Last month the management council, per a recommendation by the Division III Membership Committee, endorsed legislation that would permit schools that have demonstrated a commitment to the Division III philosophy and clearly meet sports sponsorship and financial aid requirements to skip the exploratory year and take part only in the four-year provisional process. The presidents council voted to sponsor this legislation for the 2015 Convention.
The presidents advisory group discussed potential reforms to the nontraditional segment (offseason) at length given that membership-sponsored legislation calling for greater practice opportunities in spring football will be up for vote at the 2015 Convention.
A majority of the presidents in attendance voiced concern about the time demands and expenses associated with the current nontraditional segment, and expressed a willingness to consider a new nontraditional model. Those presidents felt that a new model might better preserve the benefits of the current nontraditional segment, while enhancing the ability of student-athletes to have a diverse academic, athletic and extracurricular life on campus.
Others countered, noting that the popularity of the current nontraditional model with student-athletes and coaches, and their belief that the model encourages student-athletes to flourish athletically and academically. The presidents council will tackle this topic in greater depth when it reconvenes in the fall and the membership will engage in a review of the current nontraditional season model at the 2015 Convention Division III Issues Forum.
Mr. Right,
"What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
Just kidding.... good information. Couldn't help myself.
NURSE!!!!! I am utterly confused at that response. Let's just forget I brought this up and move on.
Quote from: Mr.Right on September 11, 2015, 08:06:48 AM
Thanks for your input! Was always curious. Explains why some teams are always in the top 25 no matter what their record may be! Happens in any pole though. I have a feeling there will be a lot of changes each week based off the start of the season. Everyone is beating up on everyone at the moment! Should be a fun year.
That was your quote. Where is there anything talking about Messiah, #2 teams,#3 teams,etc? I am responding to the fact that every year and every week there are usually ALOT of changes in the TOP 25 POLL..THIS YEAR WILL BE NO DIFFERENT THAN ANY OTHER.
Fiesty. No need to get this worked up over someone's post. Especially when there was no need to be snippy from the start. Thanks for your opinions though.
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 10, 2015, 08:42:13 PM
Got a good one going between Capital and Thomas More. Cap up 1-0 at half. TMC scores in first 20 secs of 2nd, Cap scores another minute later to go back up 2-1, and now TMC ahead 3-2.
And now Cap down to 10 men for goal scoring denial.
Very poorly officiated match - zero match-control and inexplicable (non) calls. While it was impressive to see the TM player extend his foot almost 6 feet in the air - the fact that he struck the Cap player in the face with such force to cause a concussion, no foul, says it all to me.
TM has two very good midfielders (#11 and #19 did very well last night) ; the back line is leaking goals. The 9-20 OWU game will be interesting. Cap has not started well, still missing two key starters (all-OAC players from last year). Only 4 senior starters (when all are healthy) but total team defense has to improve.
Domino, sorry to hear that. I missed the play you are talking about but could hear fans on the feed yelling throughout about someone getting kicked in the face. Was Juniet involved in that?
TMC is chippy and fans can be obnoxious. What I like about them is that they seem to love playing, play hard, and after a 4-3 game seem like they'd love to play another one. They are giving up a lot of goals. The OWU game will be interesting and probably a raucous affair. I have a feeling that TMC relished that kind of encounter.
Lastguy,
what's the spread on Messiah v Randolph tonight and how many bananas?
I am looking forward to watching this matchup tonight.
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 11, 2015, 02:29:14 PM
Domino, sorry to hear that. I missed the play you are talking about but could hear fans on the feed yelling throughout about someone getting kicked in the face. Was Juniet involved in that?
TMC is chippy and fans can be obnoxious. What I like about them is that they seem to love playing, play hard, and after a 4-3 game seem like they'd love to play another one. They are giving up a lot of goals. The OWU game will be interesting and probably a raucous affair. I have a feeling that TMC relished that kind of encounter.
The irony of some of the fan's comments - about getting "homered" - was the CR was from Cincinnati! But there was one guy last night who was, ummmm, typical of what I've come to expect from southern Ohio "bully fans." Disparaging remarks about players - nonsense trash talk, etc. There were some Cap students that were a little raucous - the Cap AD came down and directly addressed them. But for a 40-50 year old man - no excuse.
And it really was only one guy. The rest of their fans were well-behaved.
Quote from: Mr.Right on September 11, 2015, 08:14:34 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on September 10, 2015, 05:46:07 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on September 10, 2015, 12:34:26 PM
Does anyone know the status of the proposal by the NCAA I think last year to save $$$$. Some of the items on the table to be discussed were cutting NCAA Pool C bids to 3 instead of 19 like it was about 15 years ago, cutting max games allowed to play , cutting mid-week games, etc etc....
None of that was even close to being on the table. Cutting the max number of games wouldn't save the NCAA any money anyway -- it only costs the schools money, not the NCAA.
There is a movement to cut the number of contests but it doesn't save the NCAA any money and it wasn't proposed by the NCAA -- that's not how NCAA legislation works, even. Legislation is proposed by schools and conferences and voted on by schools. It's just the NCAA that enforces those rules. It was withdrawn at the NCAA convention in January (ill-conceived and doomed to fail, in my opinion). The schools are reconsidering the notion and will likely come back with a more targeted notion that doesn't simply cut 10% of contests from every sport (other than cross country and football, and 4% from basketball).
The problem is, there are probably a couple of sports that could withstand a cutback (looking at you, baseball) and others that don't need it at all. But nobody wants to try to make the politically unpopular decision of targeting a sport or two and instead they tried to just cut a wide range of sports.
There is no movement to cut back the size of the NCAA Tournament.
THERE WAS A MOVEMENT TO CUT....THIS WAS ON THE NCAA SITE..In 2014 the D3 Presidents council were endorsing FIVE recommendations from the D3 Management Council that would cut approx $2 million from the divisions championship budget. Among the changes were increased fees for D3 members and DECREASED fields for NCAA D3 tournaments.
None of that big long NCAA article you copied and pasted said anything about decreased fields for tournaments. It only speaks to cutting a couple of regular-season contests, which I discussed at length in my post.
How about Buffalo State making a statement at 4-0-0 out of the SUNYAC...Does anyone have any info on this team? They beat RIT which usually was a good win but they have dropped off in recent years. Upcoming games against SLU, Clarkson, and U of R should give us a better indication
Quote from: Mr.Right on September 11, 2015, 04:56:13 PM
How about Buffalo State making a statement at 4-0-0 out of the SUNYAC...Does anyone have any info on this team? They beat RIT which usually was a good win but they have dropped off in recent years. Upcoming games against SLU, Clarkson, and U of R should give us a better indication
Buff State gave us a good game last year. A 4-3 thriller at their place. Granted we had a ton of injuries but they played well.
Have to credit Centre's coach scheduling-wise or question his sanity. Last year played OWU and Kenyon on the road back to back. And this year, in their own tournament, give themselves Emory tonight followed by OWU tomorrow while OWU will be nice and fresh after coasting against Spalding.
And UMass-Boston wins their first game out west 2-1.
In top ranked (at least for the moment) soccer today:
#2 Wheaton beats Oglethorpe 2-1 and improves to 2-2 on the season. Marshal Hollingsworth nets his second goal of the season.
#3 Messiah beats Randolph 4-0. With goals by four different players. The game recap shows Messiah played 23 players during the match. Game attendance reported on Messiah's website was a very impressive 3,150.
#1 Tufts back in action tomorrow.
Of course Centre goes to double OT and wins 1-0.
Wheaton (IL) sneaks by Berry in the 100th minute. Final 1-0.
Observations:
1. Is the SUNYAC back? Geneseo another great result this year 1-1 at SLU. You have Geneseo, Brockport, Cortland and Oneonta not to mention Buffalo State.
2. ECONN another impressive win over Ramapo and are now 4-0 against good competition. Is the Little East a 2 bid league with ECONN and UMASS Boston.
3. I watched a bit of the Kenyon v CM game and from what I saw that was a great college soccer game. Good win for Kenyon and you gotta love all the goals.
4. RPI another HOT start beating two good NJAC teams this wknd and is ow 5-0. Last year they started 6-0-1 and I am still miffed they got shafted not getting into the 2014 NCAA's with the schedule and results they had.
5. I am glad NYU is finally playing 1 or 2 good teams before the UAA even though they lost to Rutgers Newark today
. That out of conference schedule they had last year and still somewhat have this year is BAD.
6. Oneonta St draws with Vassar after losing to Williams mid-week. They still are at Montclair St and RPI next week. Of the limited time I saw them play Williams I still say they have dropped off from the great year they had last year. I saw them including the NCAA Final 4 about 4 times last year and was very impressed. This year it seems they are missing a couple of those studs in the line-up. Maybe it is just one of those stretches teams go thru and they will bounce back
Kenyon gets by CMU 4-3. Came back from down 2-1 at the half to go up 4-2, and then gave up a goal that actually looked to be after the buzzer. Goalie had the ball on other side of the field during the 10 second countdown. Reminiscent of goal that almost got counted after the horn last year against TMC in NCAA game. Terrible lapse in defending. In any event, first CMU goal looked questionable as Clougher appeared to have ball while Webb pushed him back into the goal (although hard to tell watching online but Clougher was all over the referee on calling a goal). Kenyon got a freebie back later to even things up at 1-1 when CMU GK literally dropped the ball to Amolo's feet for a walk-in score. Missed the 2nd CMU goal off a corner but sounds like was a good goal. Except for the first 6-8 minutes of the game when CMU dominated, Kenyon carried the possession by far and in my opinion looked like the superior team. CMU is dangerous though on the counter and especially set pieces as Webb has an uncanny ability to get the ball on the end of set pieces even though everyone knows the ball is going to him. Webb now on 8 goals. Amolo at 7, although gifted the first one and the 2nd was on a PK earned by another player.
Impressed with Brandeis playing Babson right now. 0-0 at half. Judges have probably 70% or more of possession. That said, I think they are really going to struggle scoring enough goals without Savonen and Soboff. Look great except for play and finishing in final 3rd. Tough to keep winning 1-0 against the better teams, and wouldn't be surprised to see Babson sneak a goal against run of play and get the win.
KZoo and RPI video have got to be the best out there. Watching KZoo vs DePauw (good) and it's like watching regular HD TV. KZoo desperately needs this one after dropping both games at OWU weekend. Brandeis video pretty good too. Still 0-0 there. Pretty chippy game and an alleged spitting incident too.
Brandeis 1-0 over Babson in the 108th minute...cross in and a nice header past the Babson keeper. It did not look like he was marked very well. Was a chippy game but Brandeis still has a swagger even though they lost Soboff and Savonen. Heartbreaking loss for Babson as a draw could of helped in November.
Brandeis certainly with the better of the chances although the Beavers made them work for that win. Babson had an excellent chance at the end of the first half from 25+ yards that was just high (from my angle at the game, I thought it was going in.) Judges have been keeping the ball well, and their issue isn't so much "poor shooting," but rather a lack of a true striker; the guys they're playing at CF (Vieira et al) are WFs by trade, so their instincts result in them dropping too wide or too deep. At this point, they lack a target man. Something they'll have to improve before conference play comes around.
Great service and finish on the Brandeis goal. They'll have a good season. Just not sure how they will do against Tufts, Amherst, etc.
Rochester off to rough start.
KZoo and DePauw ended 0-0.
Centre draws with OWU 1-1. Video was unwatchable but seemed like a good game with OWU getting the better possession but Centre still finding their own chances. Seemed like Centre had several point blank looks around the six yard box in the 2nd OT.
Ohio Northern loses at home to Brockport.
WNEC beat Gordon.
Watch out for Chicago.....4-0 and beat North Park last night 3-1, and play St. Olaf today. Whitworth also unblemished.
Some very interesting games today.
Trinity (TX) vs Texas-Dallas....both undefeated and T-D put the only regular season loss on Trinity last year.
Christopher-Newport vs. Rutgers-Camden......heavy hitters go at it, and this one probably more important to Camden.
Wartburg vs Colorado College....both could use a signature win.
Denison vs Thomas More....a key Great Lakes match-up for unblemished teams....is Denison legit this year, and can TMC continue living on the edge and remain undefeated?
Santa Cruz vs Whitworth
Muhlenberg vs Stevens....Mules already with the number of losses had all last year.
Birm-Southern vs Wash U....B-S undefeated but very soft schedule until today. Wash U squandered huge shot advantage to draw with Dominican last night.
UMass-Boston vs Puget Sound....If UMass-B still undefeated after this one may have to wonder if they'll have a chance to pull an upset or two in NCAA play.
Colby vs Wheaton (MA)....a lot of interest in this one from NESCAC and New England fans....Colby looking to make a statement about their program and Wheaton cannot afford more stumbles unless sure will win the NEWMAC bid (which looks like could be heading for a 1 bid season compared to getting 3 bids last year).
Wartburg vs. Colorado College.
A signature win would be nice for either team.
Which Wartburg team will show up, the one that dispatched U Dallas yesterday or the underacheving team that lost 0-1 to UW-Superior?
Wartburg has some talent but it's unclear if they've figured things out yet which is unfortunate for them maybe considering preseason is over.
0s at the half in Camden. CNU with one quality chance, Camden with 4 1v1 w GK and only managed a shot off the post.
Thomas More falls at home to Denison 1-0.
Congrats to UMass-Boston, beating Puget Sound 2-0.
Chicago wins in double OT over St. Olaf.
Tufts struggling to score against Plymouth St. Punched through around 60th minute.
Whitworth over Santa Cruz 2-0.
NCAC looking good so far.....clearly the 15th best conference in the country lol...
Kenyon 5-0
Wabash 5-0 (but really soft schedule)
Denison 4-0 (likely to be 7-0 heading into game with OWU)
OWU 5-0-1
DePauw 4-0-1 (Loras next @ DPU)
Oberlin 4-1
Error: Whitworth still in progress, now 2-1.
And Texas-Dallas just scored in 74th minute to go up 1-0 on Trinity!
Lastguy, any stats or video for Camden??
And Colorado College handling Wartburg 3-1 with just couple of minutes left.
No live feed. Just stats. Quick restart for CNU. Everyone thought it went in...hit inside of post. No goal
13 to go. Camden with another breakaway missed
Trinity comes back to win in OT 2-1.
CNU 0 Camden 0. CNU very direct and quick...remind me of MSU. Relied on serviced balls from flanks. Chippy game that either team could have won, but Camden finishing woes continue. I felt as though Camden was as good a team and the #1 ranking for CNU is just bizarre.
On the plus side for Camden, FIVE freshman started.
Never thought I'd make this statement... EVER.
ECSU deserves the #1 Ranking. If not ECSU then my vote goes for Trinity (TX).
Throw out the traditional names. Rankings are supposed to be done on a year-by-year basis. Only 1 conceded goal in 5 games and are unbeaten with an incredibly high SOS (#9 on Massey). They beat two strong teams from the New England Region and an up and comer from the Mid Atlantic (Muhlenberg)...
Chicago (#73 SOS)
CNU (#114 SOS)
F&M (#167 SOS)
Kenyon (#242 SOS)
MSU (#232 SOS)
Trinity (#35 SOS)
Tufts (#61 SOS)
Whitworth (#169 SOS)
Williams (#1 SOS)
UWW (#115 SOS)
Even though it is only a poll, I think Loras (#17 SOS) should be in the mix...
LastGuy: I agree. ECSU makes perfect sense and I think that might be the right call. Chicago has a case to make as well with their great start. 5-0 I believe? But honestly should Tufts be uncrowned already? Defending champs and are 3-0. It makes sense to keep them at #1 until they get tripped up. Especially when they will be receiving everybody's best shot.
I would pump the brakes just a little on ECSU. Fantastic start but at least a couple of their games could have gone the other way, and now their schedule gets noticeably soft. The Wesleyan win appears to be the best of the bunch as Muhlenberg is really struggling.
My top 4 right now would be Tufts, Chicago, Trinity, and probably F&M. Williams is a consideration but would like to see if they get a sweep of Skidmore and two road wins in Maine this weekend.
Maybe this is irrelevant, but to vote a team #1 (or top 5 or top 10 for that matter) I think I personally need to be able to confidently picture the team advancing out of the first weekend of the NCAA tournament.
Agree with NCAC on this one. ECSU has had a great start, but #1?
Quote from: Corazon on September 14, 2015, 11:18:30 AM
Agree with NCAC on this one. ECSU has had a great start, but #1?
Also agree with NCAC...... They are doing great now but that would be a GIANT leap.....
Fair enough and all great perspectives! Like I said earlier I think Tufts should be #1 and Chicago should be considered as well. With that being said I want to comment on the "GIANT leap" remark. I think a better example of a giant leap would be a team like Etown. They took a great leap to #15 in the most recent D3 Soccer Poll. 15th? This is a team that lost in their conference final 2 years ago, then left that conference to join an easier one (by easier I mean without Messiah), to then not even qualify for their conference playoffs last season? Now they start 5-0 after beating one quality team (Dickinson) an average team (PSU-Harrisburg) and 3 cupcakes and are ranked top 15 in the country. To me that "leap" is far more noticeable and undeserving than ECSU being in the top 5. I don't know a lot about the New England area schools compared to Middle Atlantic area schools, but based off of their 5-0 start, 3 quality wins against tough opponents, and only allowing 1 goal in 5 games, I think they should be top 10, maybe even top 5. Not #1 but they make a good case. As LastGuy said earlier, rankings should be based off of performance so far this year, not past years or by a "name" like my Etown example. Any thoughts?
Hmm, replies from the NESCAC (we are the best) bias.
I'm not saying they are the BEST team in the nation, but given the results so far ECSU does not appear to be a fluke. Last year, Coast Guard got a ton of love on the rankings, so there is no reason not to give ECSU their respect.
Tufts hasn't played anyone...
How I think the rankings will end up (in terms of NSCAA format).
1. Tufts (because returning champs rarely get bumped until a blemish) (Williams #2 (9), ECSU #3 (17), Amherst (21).
2. Trinity (Whitworth #2 (10), #3 Texas-Dallas (RV)
3. Chicago (Calvin #2 (14), North Park # (24), Wheaton (RV)
4. Montclair St (CNU #2 (12), Camden #3 (25), TCNJ (RV). Voters in a tricky spot with Camden losing @ Salisbury, but tying CNU.
5. F&M (Messiah #2 (15), Etown #3 (20)
6. Loras (UWW #2 (11), could they possibly bump Loras? #3 St. Thomas (19), GAC #4 (RV)
7. Kenyon (OWU #2 (13), DePauw #3 (18), CMU #4 (23), Denison #5 (RV). Could see Denison bumping CMU.
8. SLU (RPI #2 (16), Oneonta St #3 (22), Plattsburg St (RV)
9. Williams
10. Whitworth
11. UWW
12. CNU
13. OWU
14. Calvin
15. Messiah
16. RPI.
17. ECSU
18. DePauw
19. St. Thomas
20. Etown
21. Amherst
22. Oneonta St (bumped by RPI, could see unbeaten Plattsburgh here even with the weak SOS)
23. CMU (is the Messiah win enough to keep them ahead of Denison, could see them being switched as well).
24. North Park
25. Rutgers-Camden
RV: TCNJ, GAC, Denison, Plattsburgh St, Texas-Dallas, Wheaton (Ill)
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on September 14, 2015, 12:10:44 PM
Hmm, replies from the NESCAC (we are the best) bias.
I'm not saying they are the BEST team in the nation, but given the results so far ECSU does not appear to be a fluke. Last year, Coast Guard got a ton of love on the rankings, so there is no reason not to give ECSU their respect.
Tufts hasn't played anyone...
How I think the rankings will end up (in terms of NSCAA format).
1. Tufts (because returning champs rarely get bumped until a blemish) (Williams #2, ECSU #3)
2. Trinity (Whitworth #2, #3 Texas-Dallas)
3. Chicago (Calvin #2, North Park #3)
4. Montclair St (CNU #2, Camden #3)
5. F&M (Messiah #2, Etown #3)
6. Loras (UWW #2, could they possibly bump Loras? #3 St. Thomas)
7. Kenyon (OWU #2, DePauw #3, CMU #4, Denison #5). Could see Denison bumping CMU.
8. SLU (Oneonta St #2, Steven Tech #3) toss up for the #2
For me, I 'm not saying they are a fluke and they deserve praise... Just wouldn't put them at the top....
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 14, 2015, 10:40:15 AM
I would pump the brakes just a little on ECSU. Fantastic start but at least a couple of their games could have gone the other way, and now their schedule gets noticeably soft. The Wesleyan win appears to be the best of the bunch as Muhlenberg is really struggling.
My top 4 right now would be Tufts, Chicago, Trinity, and probably F&M. Williams is a consideration but would like to see if they get a sweep of Skidmore and two road wins in Maine this weekend.
Agreed
As much as I like to see the UAA do well, and while they would be worthy of top 10 in tomorrow's poll, I am very curious to see where Chicago is come October. They may be 5-0, and Desai looks like an excellent player, but they did almost lose at home yesterday to St. Olaf (a team that is now 1-4.) While there's certainly something to be said for battling back and winning in OT, it does perhaps show some cracks. They host Loras this week, and go to Wheaton on the 25th. If they get out of September without a loss I'll be very impressed and would certainly say they're top 10-worthy, but the jury's still out for me at this point.
Re ECSU: Deeeeeeefinitely not No. 1-worthy, but you have to admit that they've been impressive. As lastguy said, Coast Guard got a lot of praise last year, and methinks that ECSU is a heck of a lot more talented (all-round, not just offensively) than they were. We shall see. I'd give them top 10 at this point.
I'm guessing you'll see Plattsburgh St. in the NSCAA rankings as one of their top three from the East region.
The rankings are a lot trickier because of the fact that Messiah lost (even if somewhat self-inflicted) and Wheaton (Ill.) and Oneonta St. have come out of the gate so poorly. If all those teams had held serve to this point, you'd have them and Tufts splitting first place votes and filling up the Top 4 or so spots, and no one would be considering ECSU or Chicago for #1. And as voters try to figure out were to drop Messiah, Oneonta, and Wheaton to, that puts the whole Top 25 in more flux than usual. Then you have Trinity (Tx.) needing OT to get by UT-Dallas, Loras being held to a scoreless draw by St. John's, F&M having an unimpressive close calls versus Alvernia, St. Lawrence and Ohio Wesleyan tying Geneseo St. and Centre, respectively, Carnegie Mellon falling to Kenyon after upsetting Messiah, Montclair St. not really playing anybody yet, Christopher Newport tying Rutgers-Camden after a close call midweek vs. N.C. Wesleyan, etc. . . . It really does seem even more difficult then usual two weeks into the season to rank teams given how few top teams haven't stumbled to some extent or another.
Again ECSU deserve praise. However, I have seen them play twice and they a good team NOT GREAT but good. They will have trouble scoring goals against the best in D3 but lets reward them for what they have done so far. Top 10 is accurate for now. No love as of yet for UMASS Boston which is also in the Little East and had a very successful trip to the northwest against Puget Sound and Pacific Lutheran(granted I have no idea how tough those 2 teams are). A possible two bid league in the Little East with UMASS Boston and Eastern Connecticut HAS NOT HAPPENED IN A long TIME.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on September 14, 2015, 12:10:44 PM
Hmm, replies from the NESCAC (we are the best) bias.
I'm not saying they are the BEST team in the nation, but given the results so far ECSU does not appear to be a fluke. Last year, Coast Guard got a ton of love on the rankings, so there is no reason not to give ECSU their respect.
Tufts hasn't played anyone...
How I think the rankings will end up (in terms of NSCAA format).
1. Tufts (because returning champs rarely get bumped until a blemish) (Williams #2 (9), ECSU #3 (17), Amherst (21).
2. Trinity (Whitworth #2 (10), #3 Texas-Dallas (RV)
3. Chicago (Calvin #2 (14), North Park # (24), Wheaton (RV)
4. Montclair St (CNU #2 (12), Camden #3 (25), TCNJ (RV). Voters in a tricky spot with Camden losing @ Salisbury, but tying CNU.
5. F&M (Messiah #2 (15), Etown #3 (20)
6. Loras (UWW #2 (11), could they possibly bump Loras? #3 St. Thomas (19), GAC #4 (RV)
7. Kenyon (OWU #2 (13), DePauw #3 (18), CMU #4 (23), Denison #5 (RV). Could see Denison bumping CMU.
8. SLU (RPI #2 (16), Oneonta St #3 (22), Plattsburg St (RV)
9. Williams
10. Whitworth
11. UWW
12. CNU
13. OWU
14. Calvin
15. Messiah
16. RPI.
17. ECSU
18. DePauw
19. St. Thomas
20. Etown
21. Amherst
22. Oneonta St (bumped by RPI, could see unbeaten Plattsburgh here even with the weak SOS)
23. CMU (is the Messiah win enough to keep them ahead of Denison, could see them being switched as well).
24. North Park
25. Rutgers-Camden
RV: TCNJ, GAC, Denison, Plattsburgh St, Texas-Dallas, Wheaton (Ill)
FW,
This looks like a typical NSCAA ranking here. What are your thoughts on Messiah? Will E-town be ahead of them for the first time in 15 years?
To me, the NSCAA polls never seemed to suggest that they are considering SOS as being as much of a factor as some of us think it should be. Thus, I just get the feeling that a 6-0-0 start from a very well-known Plattsburgh (even if many of us know they traditionally get fat off cupcakes in the early weeks) combined with Oneonta's stumble will get rewarded.
Can't see any reason to move E-town ahead of Messiah based on the past week.
It will be interesting to see how the two polls sort this mess out, and more difficult than ever to try to make predictions. Can't put a lot of stock in either of them given it's still early with relatively few games in the books and that we've had so many hiccups from expected Top 25 teams.
What may be good is that a greater number of teams get into the consciousness of the D3soccer.com voters right from the get-go and maybe helps errode some of the tunnel vision and inertia that seems to settle in very quickly and early in the rankings in most years with the same 25 or so teams just being rearranged instead of having move movement in and out of the rankings. But we'll have to see.
I was pleasantly surprise with WPI this weekend. They are better team than I expected. They look organized and have some skill in midfield. I look for them to challenge for the NEWMAC this year and give Brandeis and Amherst a game, maybe not win but at least make it a tough out.
I think Denison cracks the top 25 in both polls. Beat a ranked Emory (23) at the time and a very good Thomas More team. Both of those wins were on the road by the way. Would have loved to see how they fared against John Carroll in their opener but it was postponed. Also have only given up 1 goal in their 4 games with 3 of the wins coming on the road. Impressive start for them.
Emory is really struggling at 1-3-1..Anyone seen them this year? 1-3-1 against not a hard schedule does not bode well
I have not seen them play yet and I agree with your statement. They are struggling but at the time they played that is still a good win for Denison. They beat them when they were ranked so that should factor in somewhat I would imagine. Plus I love good defense. 3/4 games with shut-outs and only allowing 1 in the other game with 3/4 on the road as well is a good start. Will definitely be keeping my eye on them this season. They have the potential to surprise teams in that conference.
Quote from: Mr.Right on September 14, 2015, 02:40:28 PM
I was pleasantly surprise with WPI this weekend. They are better team than I expected. They look organized and have some skill in midfield. I look for them to challenge for the NEWMAC this year and give Brandeis and Amherst a game, maybe not win but at least make it a tough out.
I agree that WPI has a real shot to win the NEWMAC. That said, they better win it because their schedule has been about as soft as they come so far.
Looking forward to Wild Wednesday. Here are just a few of the great match-ups that will reverberate for at least a week or so.
Oneonta vs RPI
OWU vs ONU
Loras vs Chicago
Haverford vs Montclair
E'town vs F&M
Gettysburg vs Messiah
WPI vs Brandeis
Stevens vs Vassar
John Carroll vs Case Western
Quote from: Mr.Right on September 14, 2015, 12:53:01 PM
Again ECSU deserve praise. However, I have seen them play twice and they a good team NOT GREAT but good. They will have trouble scoring goals against the best in D3 but lets reward them for what they have done so far. Top 10 is accurate for now. No love as of yet for UMASS Boston which is also in the Little East and had a very successful trip to the northwest against Puget Sound and Pacific Lutheran(granted I have no idea how tough those 2 teams are). A possible two bid league in the Little East with UMASS Boston and Eastern Connecticut HAS NOT HAPPENED IN A long TIME.
Mr Right, I would generally agree with you, as the team is relatively young, however, they will not give up very many goals this year, and teams will have to work hard to score, after watching their back line and rookie goal keeper handle themselves so far. The Warrior back line with 6'3" Jr Emmanuel Caicedo; 6'0" Jr. Gavin Neuendorf ; 5'11" Sr, Cooper D'Ambrosio; and 5'9" Sr Zane Lombardo are a formidable back line based on the 5 games I have watched, especially Caicedo who is listed at 190lbs but is probably more like 200-210. Nuendorf, D'Ambrosio and particularly Caicedo are big, quick, physically fit defenders that will shut down many top scorers!! They also definitely have added punch on the offensive side this year with speedy youngsters Alex Fazzino, Justen Jensen, and the now more experienced 5'11' Jr. Tyler Jones and 6'2" So Xavier Doran. When Adam Traxler returns, he will provide offensive punch as well.
However, nobody really wants to be ranked #1 or even #10, now!! Therefore, ECSU needs to play more games with the real test being to defeat UMB on Oct 10th, (a dangerously talented team of scorers, with a VG defense and Goalkeeper), before I would feel confident they are a top 10-15 team!
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 14, 2015, 09:25:45 PM
Looking forward to Wild Wednesday. Here are just a few of the great match-ups that will reverberate for at least a week or so.
Oneonta vs RPI
OWU vs ONU
Loras vs Chicago
Haverford vs Montclair
E'town vs F&M
Gettysburg vs Messiah
WPI vs Brandeis
Stevens vs Vassar
John Carroll vs Case Western
The two Pennsylvania games should be exciting:
Etown vs F&M
Gettysburg vs Messiah
The combined record of these four teams is 18-1 (with Messiah currently carrying the only loss in the bunch). These teams are in relatively close proximity to each other in Central Pennsylvania so they know each other well. My call is F&M and Messiah will emerge as victors on Wednesday night. But we will see.
In the Mid-West the Loras vs Chicago game should a good one.
Loras is energized after their exciting win over Wheaton (IL) and Chicago comes in at 5-0. I'm going with the Swarm on this one.
Wednesday should fun.
#2 is too high for Kenyon. I would have them somewhere between #5 thru #8, and that's looking at them optimistically. As a fan, I'd rather see them in the #12-#15 range with a goal of gradually moving towards the top 5. This is a good team that is partially but substantially rebuilding, and may be formidable come November. The talent is there but they need more time to figure out all the pieces, figure out where their leadership is going to come from, etc, etc. It's nice for the program to be highly ranked which probably gives a boost to the program as happened last year, but unless you are a program like Messiah, OWU, etc that is used to the pressure and expects to be a frontrunner, being a little disrespected can be a good thing. In other words, the competitive, up-and-coming, underdog role can be a good place to be, especially for a young squad. At some point today I'm going to try to write something up, with Kenyon as the example, about emerging programs that are trying to break into the envied category of perennial heavy hitters (Messiah, OWU, Trinity (TX), Loras, Wheaton (Ill), Williams, Amherst, etc). The other two schools that come to mind as very similar to where Kenyon is at right now are F&M and Brandeis (and I'm sure there are a few others). I don't know the history as well as some, but I would place schools like SLU, Oneonta, and maybe Montclair as in between the two categories above. Tufts seems like an example of a school that skipped some of the emerging process and with a sudden, stunning, and demonstrative breakthrough jumped right to the top.
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 15, 2015, 10:13:23 AM
#2 is too high for Kenyon. I would have them somewhere between #5 thru #8, and that's looking at them optimistically. As a fan, I'd rather see them in the #12-#15 range with a goal of gradually moving towards the top 5. This is a good team that is partially but substantially rebuilding, and may be formidable come November. The talent is there but they need more time to figure out all the pieces, figure out where their leadership is going to come from, etc, etc. It's nice for the program to be highly ranked which probably gives a boost to the program as happened last year, but unless you are a program like Messiah, OWU, etc that is used to the pressure and expects to be a frontrunner, being a little disrespected can be a good thing. In other words, the competitive, up-and-coming, underdog role can be a good place to be, especially for a young squad. At some point today I'm going to try to write something up, with Kenyon as the example, about emerging programs that are trying to break into the envied category of perennial heavy hitters (Messiah, OWU, Trinity (TX), Loras, Wheaton (Ill), Williams, Amherst, etc). The other two schools that come to mind as very similar to where Kenyon is at right now are F&M and Brandeis (and I'm sure there are a few others). I don't know the history as well as some, but I would place schools like SLU, Oneonta, and maybe Montclair as in between the two categories above. Tufts seems like an example of a school that skipped some of the emerging process and with a sudden, stunning, and demonstrative breakthrough jumped right to the top.
I don't know - Kenyon's front two lines demonstrated a chemistry like that of a side that has been playing together for years this Sunday. Yes - I did watch the backs - they weren't tested at all but I watched their first touch, poise on the ball, etc. A team that can pressure them may force the defense to cough it up - but that's speculation right now.
But the one and two touch combinations from the front lines was exquisite. Even some Marietta parents were marveling at the runs off the ball - how there always seemed to be a Kenyon player in a space, anticipating that the ball would be there. The top teams in the NCAC look very solid in the early going.
From Kenyon's perspective, I get what you are saying about where you would prefer them to be ranked. But if you had to do the rankings, based on the results to date (and considering the history of teams), how would you get that many other teams ahead of them? Almost all teams have had a stumble or close-call that doesn't help their case for the No. 1 or even top 10 ranking.
I wasn't sure what the voters would do, but I am surprised that Trinity (Tx.) men garned so much support to rise to the No. 1 ranking. They almost lost to Texas-Dallas, needing overtime to come back from down 1-0 with a goals in the 83rd and 95th minutes. And the box score does not suggest that this is was a case of complete domination but not scoring. Shots: 23-20. SOG: 8-8. If that was such a quality win to elevate them to No. 1, why didn't Texas-Dallas get many votes? Were they a quality opponent or not? I'm also struggling to understand Montcalir State at No. 6. They have played absolutely noone so far. But it is a challenge to sort it all out.
And it's interesting to see how one week's and one team's ranking can impact another week's or team's ranking. By perhaps over-reacting to Carnegie Mellong beating Messiah (a look at the box score suggests that CMU wasn't #3 vs. #14 better than Messiah, and I'd say that a viewing of the game suggests Messiah was/is the better team), voters set themselves up to have to push Kenyon for No.1 because they beat No. 3 CMU. I don't think it's good to rely too much on previous week's rankings for formulating new rankings. There needs to be a constant re-evaluation of the the full body of work. It doesn't make for good rankings if you just say this team was ranked here and they went X-X-X this week so they should move up/downto here, and this team beat this team that was ranked up here so that must mean they need to move up above them, etc.
For example, what may have been thought to be a quality win at the time, could be found to be less impressive when more results demostrate that a typically strong opponent is having an off year. But if a team got their high ranking based on the idea at the time that that was a quality win, then that can become an inaccurate reference point for all their future rankings. If a team's future rankings are always set relative to the previous week's rankings, than the rankings do not take advantage of hindsight (the ability to discover that the perception at the time may not have been accurate). And I think this dynamic contributes to rankings becoming more static than they should be.
Domino, that's good to hear, although not sure Marietta is the right test to derive much from in terms of conclusions. It was a good sign that they were outplaying CMU and found themselves down by a goal, twice, and managed to find a way to win. There is a lot of talent up top and in the midfield. Barnes is excellent and provides a ton of energy, but as the only senior on the entire roster he's going to need to be a real leader and cut down on the cards. Eudy, the transfer from Providence, is very skilled and usually makes great decisions. He needs to take over some of the leadership role, along with Clougher and Amolo. Lee sometimes can coast, needs to be more consistent, and less prone to 1 vs 1 sparring with opponents, but he is talented and sometimes comes up with huge plays as he did against Wheaton 2 years ago and in the 2nd half this past weekend against CMU. Carmona is a VERY talented freshman...very technical and creative out of the midfield and started every game for a high-end Texas USSDA team. And of course there is Amolo. I'm probably his biggest fan on this site, but he has the challenge of trying to take himself to another level his last 2 years. He needs to score or create more scoring chances in the biggest games, like against OWU who he has yet to score against. Tony is a great kid and I'm really hoping he has a special season. That's not even counting Jeon who needs to be more consistently productive, Glassman who still doesn't look near 100%, and a couple of the other frosh who are playing up top or as mids. The back line, in addition to inexperience, is going to be very different. Last year's group, all seniors, were probably one of the biggest backlines in D3 history. This year Brown has taken a cue from OWU and converted an attacking mid/forward to a centerback and he is playing really well. The right back also is a converted mid and he has been playing great (featured on latest Great Goals). Both are sophs. A junior with pace is the left back and the most experienced, and one of the stellar frosh is the other starting centerback. Kenyon loves to have their outside backs overlap into the offensive third. I thought they got stretched too much during the CMU game, and I'd like to see them pick their spots more in terms of how aggressive they are with their runs. There are several other talented frosh who are getting time, and they are at least 2-deep at every spot other than maybe CB. After this scouting report maybe I won't much to say for my other idea!
NSCAA National rankings
http://www.nscaa.com/rankings/4323/ (http://www.nscaa.com/rankings/4323/)
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on September 14, 2015, 12:55:01 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on September 14, 2015, 12:10:44 PM
Hmm, replies from the NESCAC (we are the best) bias.
I'm not saying they are the BEST team in the nation, but given the results so far ECSU does not appear to be a fluke. Last year, Coast Guard got a ton of love on the rankings, so there is no reason not to give ECSU their respect.
Tufts hasn't played anyone...
How I think the rankings will end up (in terms of NSCAA format).
1. Tufts (because returning champs rarely get bumped until a blemish) (Williams #2 (9), ECSU #3 (17), Amherst (21).
2. Trinity (Whitworth #2 (10), #3 Texas-Dallas (RV)
3. Chicago (Calvin #2 (14), North Park # (24), Wheaton (RV)
4. Montclair St (CNU #2 (12), Camden #3 (25), TCNJ (RV). Voters in a tricky spot with Camden losing @ Salisbury, but tying CNU.
5. F&M (Messiah #2 (15), Etown #3 (20)
6. Loras (UWW #2 (11), could they possibly bump Loras? #3 St. Thomas (19), GAC #4 (RV)
7. Kenyon (OWU #2 (13), DePauw #3 (18), CMU #4 (23), Denison #5 (RV). Could see Denison bumping CMU.
8. SLU (RPI #2 (16), Oneonta St #3 (22), Plattsburg St (RV)
9. Williams
10. Whitworth
11. UWW
12. CNU
13. OWU
14. Calvin
15. Messiah
16. RPI.
17. ECSU
18. DePauw
19. St. Thomas
20. Etown
21. Amherst
22. Oneonta St (bumped by RPI, could see unbeaten Plattsburgh here even with the weak SOS)
23. CMU (is the Messiah win enough to keep them ahead of Denison, could see them being switched as well).
24. North Park
25. Rutgers-Camden
RV: TCNJ, GAC, Denison, Plattsburgh St, Texas-Dallas, Wheaton (Ill)
Rank
School
Prev.
W-L-T
1 Tufts University 1 3-0-0
2 Trinity University (Texas) 6 5-0-0
3 Kenyon College 9 5-0-0 (Off by 4)
4 Franklin & Marshall College 12 5-0-0 (Off by 1)
5 University Of Chicago 18 5-0-0 (Off by 2)
6 Loras College 11 4-0-1
7 Christopher Newport University 8 5-0-1 (Off by 5) Surprised to see them ahead of MSU
8 St. Lawrence University 13 4-0-1
9 Montclair State University 24 5-0-0 (Off by 5)
10 Amherst College 10 2-0-0 (Off by 11)
11 Messiah College 3 3-1-0 (Off by 4)
12 Denison University NR 4-0-0 (Off by 14)
13 Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute RV 5-0-0 (Off by 3)
14 University of Wisconsin-Whitewater NR 5-0-0 (Off by 3)
15 Calvin College 16 3-0-1 (Off by 1)
16 Whitworth University 14 4-0-0 (Off by 6)
17 Carnegie Mellon University NR 4-1-0 (Off by 6)
18 The College of New Jersey NR 5-0-1 (Off by 8)
19 Eastern Connecticut State University NR 5-0-0 (Off by 2)
20 University of Texas-Dallas RV 4-1-0 (Off by 6)
21 Plattsburgh State University NR 7-0-0 (Off by 5)
22 Elizabethtown College NR 5-0-0 (Off by 2)
23 University of St. Thomas NR 4-0-0 (Off by 4)
24 Washington University (Mo.) NR 2-1-2 (Way off)
25 Brandeis University NR 5-1-0 (Way off, they slipped past me by mistake).
RV Salisbury (way off), OWU (off by 13), Oneonta St (off by 4).
In reference to the South Atlantic... Both Salisbury and Stockton lose, but remain in top 5 for region... Camden draws vs #1 team in region and is slotted at #10. Birmingham Southern gets love again this season. The good ol' NSCAA poll standard for teams with unblemished records and incredibly weak SOS.
Had Oneonta St taken care of business, Williams stock would be much higher. Crazy to not see them in the top 25....
Teams in bold (correct slot in region)
Central: Chicago, Calvin, Washington (MO)
East: SLU, RPI, Plattsburgh St, Oneonta St
Great Lakes: Kenyon, Denison, CMU, OWU
Mid-Atlantic: F&M, Messiah, Etown
New England: Tufts, Amherst, ECSU, Brandeis
North: Loras, UWW, St. Thomas
South Atlantic: CNU, MSU, TCNJ, Salisbury
West: Trinity, Whitworth, Texas-Dallas
Great goal by Brandeis to beat Babson in 2OT to get Coven his 500th win. Excellent video feed from Brandeis also with no commentary and right above the benches you are getting a REAL feel for the game and coaches...Love it...Babson coach Jon Anderson must be going nuts because Babson defenders were literally caught NAPPING on that free-kick. Very lazy one man wall started it and then defenders just let Brandeis players to OLE' right thru.
Congrats to...
Tufts for staying on top in first poll. They have a long way to go (haven't played a real strong team yet), but they are still there at least for now.
F&M for building over the past several years to now be a legit top 5 team
Elizabethtown - it's been quite some time since they've been on a national poll
Quote from: Mr.Right on September 15, 2015, 12:47:42 PM
Great goal by Brandeis to beat Babson in 2OT to get Coven his 500th win. Excellent video feed from Brandeis also with no commentary and right above the benches you are getting a REAL feel for the game and coaches...Love it...Babson coach Jon Anderson must be going nuts because Babson defenders were literally caught NAPPING on that free-kick. Very lazy one man wall started it and then defenders just let Brandeis players to OLE' right thru.
This was a carbon copy of the game between Messiah and Alvernia at Alvernia last year. They played Messiah 10 deep and were holding on to a 0-0 tie for almost 110 minutes. Messiah got a free kick just about the same spot as Brandeis and won the game with a quick free kick and nice goal catching the Alvernia side totally asleep. Just a gut wrenching loss for Alvernia because they WORKED so hard to get a result and in 1 second they fell asleep and it was all for naught. That is why we love futbol
Mr. Right I remember watching that game online. Heads up play by I believe Brain Ramirez to play it to Payne. Alvernia was still arguing the call. Terrible way to lose that game for them last year.
Denison at #12 and Chicago at #5 seems way too high. The reason to see Chris. Newport ahead of Montclair St. is that MSU hasn't played anybody yet. I was thinking that Salisbury is being a little hard done by, given who they've played, but TCNJ has also played some decent teams. Rutgers-Camden at only #10 in the region seems ridiculous to me. Also surprised Williams didn't get more respect for their win over Oneonta St. Of course, the NSCAA "having" to put one team from each region in the top 8 explains some oddities but not all of them.
The D3soccer.com Top 25 gave more love to Gustavus Adolphus where the NSCAA went for St. Thomas. D3soccer.com also didn't punish Ohio Wesleyan like the NSCAA did, and they liked Rutgers-Camden a whole lot more. But beyond a few signiificant discrepancies like that, they two polls aren't just too far apart on most teams considering it's still very early and the Top 25 picture is pretty cloudy yet.
Salisbury played horrible against Susquehanna but it was their opener. I have not seen them play besides that game. Any insight on how they are going to be this year? Historically they have been excellent.
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 15, 2015, 01:19:17 PM
Mr. Right I remember watching that game online. Heads up play by I believe Brain Ramirez to play it to Payne. Alvernia was still arguing the call. Terrible way to lose that game for them last year.
I don't recall Alvernia arguing much on the foul call itself (the arguing came due to the quick free kick). They thought they had time to set-up as the Messiah player who was fouled was still on the ground. We'll never know if Alvernia would have reacted differently (more rushed, more attentive) if the Messiah player hadn't still been on the ground, but that was certainly their argument to the ref after the play that the ball shouldn't have been able to put in play with a player still down on the ground right where the ball was to be played. Sometimes the fouling team assumes their opponent will ask the ref for the 10 yards and thus feel they have more time, and that may have been Alvernia's mindset as well. Who knows. But just wanted to say that in my recollection, Alvernia wasn't victimized on the quick kick because they chose to argue with the ref instead of set-up defensively.
I am befuddled at how high F&M and SLU are. There SOS is pretty weak from what I can tell
Quote from: Flying Weasel on September 15, 2015, 01:33:11 PM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 15, 2015, 01:19:17 PM
Mr. Right I remember watching that game online. Heads up play by I believe Brain Ramirez to play it to Payne. Alvernia was still arguing the call. Terrible way to lose that game for them last year.
I don't recall Alvernia arguing much on the foul call itself (the arguing came due to the quick free kick). They thought they had time to set-up as the Messiah player who was fouled was still on the ground. We'll never know if Alvernia would have reacted differently (more rushed, more attentive) if the Messiah player hadn't still been on the ground, but that was certainly their argument to the ref after the play that the ball shouldn't have been able to put in play with a player still down on the ground right where the ball was to be played. Sometimes the fouling team assumes their opponent will ask the ref for the 10 yards and thus feel they have more time, and that may have been Alvernia's mindset as well. Who knows. But just wanted to say that in my recollection, Alvernia wasn't victimized on the quick kick because they chose to argue with the ref instead of set-up defensively.
This is absolutely correct. Alvernia was not arguing the call at all they were just gassed and slow to react to the quick free-kick
Quote from: Flying Weasel on September 15, 2015, 01:33:11 PM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 15, 2015, 01:19:17 PM
Mr. Right I remember watching that game online. Heads up play by I believe Brain Ramirez to play it to Payne. Alvernia was still arguing the call. Terrible way to lose that game for them last year.
I don't recall Alvernia arguing much on the foul call itself (the arguing came due to the quick free kick). They thought they had time to set-up as the Messiah player who was fouled was still on the ground. We'll never know if Alvernia would have reacted differently (more rushed, more attentive) if the Messiah player hadn't still been on the ground, but that was certainly their argument to the ref after the play that the ball shouldn't have been able to put in play with a player still down on the ground right where the ball was to be played. Sometimes the fouling team assumes their opponent will ask the ref for the 10 yards and thus feel they have more time, and that may have been Alvernia's mindset as well. Who knows. But just wanted to say that in my recollection, Alvernia wasn't victimized on the quick kick because they chose to argue with the ref instead of set-up defensively.
Yes that is correct. Lots of arguing followed after the goal about the man on the ground. Good catch and my mistake!
Cannot attest to Salisbury as I missed the game vs. Camden. But I'll say that Camden is on the same level, if not better than CNU.
I heard Salisbury scored off a mishap/miscommunication in the back by the GK who stepped outside the 18 with the ball in hand, awarding the Gulls a free kick late in the 1st half... Camden struggled to put shots on the frame. The same thing happened vs CNU... they literally missed 5 breakaways (1 off the post, 1 wide, 3 worm burners straight to the GK), and a shot from the edge of the 6 went high and wide.
#9 from CNU is a decent target player. #3 was good on the ball and made some decent runs out of the back. #14 very crafty with some pace and good distributor. #30 was an excellent ball winner. GK made two decent saves. Tons of separation from def to fwd and were not as organized as a top 10 team should be. Lots of flopping around and shirt grabbing. They will struggle in the future vs possession oriented teams or ones that pack it in because they play a bunch of aerial balls. However, judging their remaining schedule, they could run the table (@ Methodist, @ York, @ Mary Washington will be their tough tests). They have Salisbury and Frostburg St at home. Realistic expectation for CNU in my opinion is Sweet 16 loss when they play a more organized, experienced side.
FW, back to your question, I definitely could have seen Tufts, Trinity, Loras and F&M ahead of Kenyon, and maybe, in no particular order, a couple more out of SLU, Montclair, OWU, Messiah, Chicago, Amherst, Whitworth. OWU's drop makes no sense, as only blemish is a tie at Centre which is a tough place to play. Kenyon very easily could come back from Danville, KY with a loss as they did 2 years ago on a late goal in last 5 minutes. Centre is a hard progrma to figure out. They play well against highly ranked Great Lakes teams and then struggle in a conference seems like they would dominate. Also think Messiah's drop makes no sense. Lost a heartbreaker away in a game they were the better team, and the team they beat ended up at #3. And the Loras win over Wheaton may be the single most impressive win so far, with Williams over Oneonta a close second.
Oh, and major congrats to Coach Coven. I was convinced Brandeis and Kenyon were both going to get to the Final Four last year. Oh well.
Oh, and forgot about CMU over Messiah, obviously another huge win.
I don't understand OWU drop either, NCAC. In terms of a blemish... CNU tied at Camden (tough place to play) and still remained #1 in the region.
Where is the love for UM Boston??? Last two wins out west were pretty convincing vs decent squads! Should have gotten a couple of votes at least!
Quote from: ECSUalum on September 15, 2015, 02:32:18 PM
Where is the love for UM Boston??? Last two wins out west were pretty convincing vs decent squads! Should have gotten a couple of votes at least!
Agreed! Great point.
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 15, 2015, 02:35:22 PM
Quote from: ECSUalum on September 15, 2015, 02:32:18 PM
Where is the love for UM Boston??? Last two wins out west were pretty convincing vs decent squads! Should have gotten a couple of votes at least!
Agreed! Great point.
I also agree and have been a neutral fan of UMASS Boston since the job went full-time. However, since we have basically no posters from the Northwest do we know how good Puget Sound and Pacific Lutheran are? Just going 2-0-0 after a 7 hour flight gets my respect and I was quite impressed with Whitworth last year in the NCAA's. I believe they took out Emory or something like that.
Last year Puget Sound and Willamette were challenging Whitworth for that conference title down to the last week. Don't know if the Loggers (yeah, I think they're the Loggers) are supposed to be strong this year, but they are usually at least decent. UM-B will get some love soon, I'm sure.
Yep, Puget Sound is indeed the "Loggers." Old roommate in grad school was a soccer player there way back when. In fact, in the early days of the internet, I saw that he was listed as their all-time scoring leader (haven't checked since). I think the school might have had some ties in the early years to the Weyerhaeuser forest products family, hence the nickname. Students apparently chanted "log jam" during goal line stances at football games. Speaking of Weyerhaeuser, I heard one of the decendents played women's soccer for Williams a few years ago. "UPS" is a nice, pretty school - has a fierce rivalry with Pacific Lutheran, which is just down the road.
Quote from: Corazon on September 15, 2015, 03:37:31 PM
Yep, Puget Sound is indeed the "Loggers." Old roommate in grad school was a soccer player there way back when. In fact, in the early days of the internet, I saw that he was listed as their all-time scoring leader (haven't checked since). I think the school might have had some ties in the early years to the Weyerhaeuser forest products family, hence the nickname. Students apparently chanted "log jam" during goal line stances at football games. Speaking of Weyerhaeuser, I heard one of the decendents played women's soccer for Williams a few years ago. "UPS" is a nice, pretty school - has a fierce rivalry with Pacific Lutheran, which is just down the road.
Agree. There are a handful of colleges in the Pac NW, including Puget Sound, that are underappreciated.
Postsdam St. upsets St. Lawrence 1-0.
Skidmore beats Williams 2-0.
Who's next to stumble?
MSU to Oneonta St maybe?
Chicago to Loras, yes
CNU to Methodist?
RPI to Oneonta?
Montclair to Haverford?
F&M or E'town
WPI or Brandeis
Saturday
Loras to DePauw? (doubtful but HUGE opportunity for DPU at home)
Tufts to Conn? (too scripted...last Tufts loss to the Camels)
F&M to Swat?
Whitworth to Willamette? (probably not)
Denison to Capital? (tempted to pick this one)
Sunday
Trinity (TX) to Colorado College? (one of few chances for Trinity to lose rest of regular season)
Kenyon to Centre? (very possible especially if Lords go down early and get rattled in a hostile environment)
CONFERENCES
SUNYAC: 37-11-4 .750 SOS AVG: 126 HIGH: 12 LOW: 367 (2 teams w/SOS lower than 200)
NJAC: 37-14-3 .713 SOS AVG: 171 HIGH: 22 LOW: 324 (4 teams w/SOS lower than 200)
NESCAC: 21-9-1 .694 SOS AVG: 164 HIGH: 2 LOW: 366 (5 teams w/SOS lower than 200)
NCAC: 32-12-8 .692 SOS AVG: 202 HIGH: 71 LOW: 370 (5 teams w/SOS lower than 200)
UAA: 25-12-4 .659 SOS AVG: 107 HIGH: 6 LOW: 238 (2 teams w/SOS lower than 200)
IIAC: 21-13-6 .600 SOS AVG: 252 HIGH: 10 LOW: 401 (5 teams w/SOS lower than 200)
*SOS determined by Massey Ratings...
SUNYAC: 36, 136, 111, 115, 18, 213, 117, 135, 367, 12, 126
NJAC: 217, 189, 52, 22, 80, 108, 317, 248, 151, 324
NESCAC: 56, 90, 237, 243, 2, 3, 110, 100, 350, 366, 250
NCAC: 233, 183, 71, 267, 169, 370, 220, 93, 89, 321
UAA: 13, 20, 155, 6, 211, 85, 131, 238
IIAC: 10, 244, 167, 174, 336, 312, 375, 401
SOS is numbered in accordance with Massey overall ranking.
That RPI v Oneonta game interests me. I have a funny feeling Oneonta is going to come out pumped up and like gangbusters. If RPI can hang on in the 1st half they will have a chance but Oneonta has something to prove.
Also, Stevens v Vassar could be a big one come November for Vassar. Anyone seen Stevens yet this year? I watched them a couple times last year and were impressed with their athleticism and speed.
Agreed. Last year at home Stevens held Vassar to 1 shot, lowest probably ever. Last year Vassar also went down 4-0 to Oneonta before a goal in garbage time. This year it all depends which Vassar team shows up--the one that blew out Roger Williams in Rhode Island or tied Oneonta, or the one that can put one shot on goal in the second half against Manhattanville while making a host of defensive blunders. For teams like Vassar, Skidmore, and surprisingly SLU, consistency come league is going to be the key to their seasons.
Quote from: deutschfan on September 16, 2015, 02:54:03 PM
Agreed. Last year at home Stevens held Vassar to 1 shot, lowest probably ever. Last year Vassar also went down 4-0 to Oneonta before a goal in garbage time. This year it all depends which Vassar team shows up--the one that blew out Roger Williams in Rhode Island or tied Oneonta, or the one that can put one shot on goal in the second half against Manhattanville while making a host of defensive blunders. For teams like Vassar, Skidmore, and surprisingly SLU, consistency come league is going to be the key to their seasons.
The Liberty League could be quite competitive this year. SLU is having what is now traditional early season injury problems and in combination with a new coach does not appear as stable as years past. Things usually smooth out by the time league play arrives but you never know. RPI is extremely strong, and I would definitely count on Skidmore and Vassar to throw a monkey wrench in there and disrupt the standings making runs of their own.
The way Skidmore played Williams they absolutely make it very difficult to break them down. They are an athletic bunch up the spine and are well coached. They man mark your best players all over the field and the minute they lose the ball in their offensive 1/3 of the field ALL 10 PLAYERS drop significantly. Weaker teams try to do this against better competition but usually are not athletic enough to withstand the pressure for 90 minutes. Skidmore is talented enough and committed enough to this conservative style to make it work against the best in D3. However, if you score a goal or 2 early in the game they would be hard pressed to score enough against the best in D3 to claw back into the game. I am most interested to follow them this season. I assumed with the loss of #7 Beek they would drop significantly but with that athletic squad up the backbone plus a 6'3 very solid GK they are a very tough out
Can't see Chicago slipping up against Loras. Never been impressed with Loras and Chicago is humming at the moment.
Loving the Northwest discussion. I've got Whitworth, UPS, and Willamette as my top three from that conference.
swibbles, that is some bold talk. Looking forward to your 9th post (presumably after the game).
I have to admit, I'm no fan of the way Loras play either. Haven't seen Chicago play so I can't say whether they're the real deal, but I guess we'll find out tonight.
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 16, 2015, 05:48:15 PM
swibbles, that is some bold talk. Looking forward to your 9th post (presumably after the game).
I'll be sure to check back in for ya, NCAC, and I'll be the first to admit it if I'm dead wrong. Who do you like in that game? Your post count suggests you know more about this than I do :^)
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 16, 2015, 05:48:15 PM
swibbles, that is some bold talk. Looking forward to your 9th post (presumably after the game).
frequency doesn't merit quality. As the great Deepak chora once said, "the intention to live as long as possible isn't one of the mind's best intentions, because quantity isn't the same as quality" Squibbles, keep on doing your thing, don't worry about d3 soccer blog legends like NCAC bossing you around. But looking at the uchicago roster it seems like they have a really young team, young = inconsistent? Doesn't look like it thus far (5-0), we will see soon enough. Will be tuned to the boards for this exciting preemptive post season match up.
Quote from: pelinho5 on September 16, 2015, 06:18:16 PM
"the intention to live as long as possible isn't one of the mind's best intentions, because quantity isn't the same as quality"
Love this quote... but not as much as I like Loras chances of slipping up tonight. They're always much better at home (The Rock Bowl has been a fortress in recent years) and I think they'll take Chicago for granted after beating them last year.
Quote from: Letthekidsplay59 on September 16, 2015, 06:32:19 PM
Quote from: pelinho5 on September 16, 2015, 06:18:16 PM
"the intention to live as long as possible isn't one of the mind's best intentions, because quantity isn't the same as quality"
Love this quote... but not as much as I like Loras chances of slipping up tonight. They're always much better at home (The Rock Bowl has been a fortress in recent years) and I think they'll take Chicago for granted after beating them last year.
In fact I love Deepak chopra! He has lots of great quotes, like this one, "the less you open your heart to others, the more your heart suffers". It basically is telling us to open our hearts! Share what we are feeling! I feel like there is going to be quite a lot of sharing in the Loras Chicago game tonight. The real question is whose heart will suffer?
For my third post I would have to agree. No doubt Lora's will play a high paced 90 minutes however I think Chicago's possession based play will result I a W, especially at Home. Should be an exciting match to watch.
While Loras' style is certainly not my favorite, its quite effective. I saw how it effected an experienced and strong possession side in Gustavus last year in the NCAA's.
Should be an exciting game tonight. Not gonna lie, would love to see Chicago come away with a W, but Loras is definitely the favorite going into the match.
Quote from: pelinho5 on September 16, 2015, 06:18:16 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 16, 2015, 05:48:15 PM
swibbles, that is some bold talk. Looking forward to your 9th post (presumably after the game).
frequency doesn't merit quality. As the great Deepak chora once said, "the intention to live as long as possible isn't one of the mind's best intentions, because quantity isn't the same as quality" Squibbles, keep on doing your thing, don't worry about d3 soccer blog legends like NCAC bossing you around. But looking at the uchicago roster it seems like they have a really young team, young = inconsistent? Doesn't look like it thus far (5-0), we will see soon enough. Will be tuned to the boards for this exciting preemptive post season match up.
Haha. Nothing provocative intended by reference to the 9th post other than looking forward to how the game turns out and hearing the thoughts of the poster later either way. Certainly no bullying intended. I hope swibbles has a long and prosperous D3soccer.com career. And you as well. Love your quote, although I will fully admit to hoping to live a long time.
Stevens 4-2 over Vassar....Vassar had two leads in this game and it seems like it was a wild game.Did anyone watch this one? 1. Was it like the recap suggests a wild one? 6 goals, a couple breakaway's and 2 lead changes..This one might sting Vassar later on but my questions is Stevens as good as last year or even better? I was not able to catch this game
Quote from: swibbles on September 16, 2015, 06:05:09 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 16, 2015, 05:48:15 PM
swibbles, that is some bold talk. Looking forward to your 9th post (presumably after the game).
I'll be sure to check back in for ya, NCAC, and I'll be the first to admit it if I'm dead wrong. Who do you like in that game? Your post count suggests you know more about this than I do :^)
In hindsight, I think I reacted more to "never been impressed by Loras" more than your prediction. Not liking
how they play is one thing, but I confess guilt to not understanding a comment like "never been impressed" by what pretty objectively has been one of the top 3-4 programs in all of D3 over the past 6-8 or more years. As for the prediction, yes I would pick Loras, but Chicago winning would be great for D3 soccer and add a lot of excitement to discussions about the pool of legit contenders. Perhaps you noticed that I thought Chicago should have garnered a top ranking this week.
And the struggles continue for Oneonta as RPI scores a possible dagger to go up 1-0 with 20 minutes left....If RPI holds on this would be an impressive start with a decent to above average schedule before liberty league play
First solid win for 6-0 Wabash.....1-0 over Rose-Hulman.
RPI still hanging on v Oneonta....Their first 3 games have been cupcakes then they beat 2 decent NJAC teams down in Jersey. With a result over Oneonta and SUNY Potsdam , Babson, Williams and Hobart, SLU, Skidmore and Vassar they are going to have MANY opportunities to get wins v ranked opponents and an SOS over .600. Actually, the first 3 games were so weak they might drag that SOS down considerably.
Messiah and Gettysburg headed to overtime. Pretty even first half. Messiah putting on the pressure in the second half.
Couple surprises tonight:
Messiah v Gettysburg 0-0 going into OT
WPI v Brandeis 0-0 going into OT
RPI v Oneonta 1-0 RPI 10 minutes left
OWU loses to Ohio Northern 1-0
MOntclair v Haverford 2-2 20 minutes left
Loras leading U of C 1-0 at halftime. Jorge Simon with a nice free kick from 26 out right over the wall and left the keeper flat footed.
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 16, 2015, 08:25:29 PM
Quote from: swibbles on September 16, 2015, 06:05:09 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 16, 2015, 05:48:15 PM
swibbles, that is some bold talk. Looking forward to your 9th post (presumably after the game).
I'll be sure to check back in for ya, NCAC, and I'll be the first to admit it if I'm dead wrong. Who do you like in that game? Your post count suggests you know more about this than I do :^)
In hindsight, I think I reacted more to "never been impressed by Loras" more than your prediction. Not liking how they play is one thing, but I confess guilt to not understanding a comment like "never been impressed" by what pretty objectively has been one of the top 3-4 programs in all of D3 over the past 6-8 or more years. As for the prediction, yes I would pick Loras, but Chicago winning would be great for D3 soccer and add a lot of excitement to discussions about the pool of legit contenders. Perhaps you noticed that I thought Chicago should have garnered a top ranking this week.
No doubt that it had objectively been successful. I just want to claw my eyes out as I watch it. That's the issue. :^)
Brandeis defeats WPI in 2OT 1-0. That is their 4th 1-0 decision IN A ROW AND 5TH IN 7 GAMES and are 6-0-1. They now have 10 days off before they head to defending national champion Tufts. Tufts has a back to back this weekend before the battle with Brandeis. I think Brandeis needs the 10 days to rest up and regroup as they are struggling finishing their chances so far this year from what I can tell.
Geneseo St gets their 3rd draw in a row against a weaker side in Houghton. Geneseo is now 3-0-3 with 3 straight draws against SLU, Clarkson and Houghton. That win earlier in the season against U of Rochester is looking a bit less impressive.
The East is for the first time in a long time a complete mess. RPI, Stevens, Oneonta, SLU, Rochester, Geneseo, Plattsburgh, Potsdam, Skidmore, Vassar are all beating each other up a bit. November is going to be more interesting than ever for the East and they will be stealing some bids from other regions if all this continues.
It's killing me to try and watch this match. Stop-start-stop -start. Refreshing every 2 seconds.
Loras and U of C are certainly polar opposites in playing styles. Loras uses the abilities of the players they have to achieve great results, regardless of the opinion of whomever is watching. Fr 2007 thru 2010 Loras was very much a possession and build up team, but they don't have those types of players right now and Coach Rothert is wise enough to know how to get every bit of energy and production out of who he has.
That's 2-0 Loras
Excuse me, I meant to say 3-0 Loras. No matter how you feel about their "style" of play you cannot argue the results past or present.
I had suspected that Chicago was a bit lucky to be ranked #5 and get out of their first few games 5-0 (especially after almost losing to St. Olaf at home.) They're certainly a decent side, but getting humbled 3-0 at home could be a good wake-up call for them.
4-0 Loras
Loras is fantastic on counter attack, very quick and physical.
That's the final Loras 4-0 over U of C. This was a very convincing win for the DuHawks especially considering they were without the services of their best technical player and goal scorer Alex Bradley. Well done men, keep it up. Loras has only allowed 1 goal in 6 matches and it was given up in their 1st match of the year against Oshkosh.
Kinda baffled by the rankings a bit. Chicago ends last season unranked Nationally with some votes received and 3rd in their region, starts this season as #16 Nationally and moves up to 10th with no wins over ranked opponents. Loras finishes last season ranked 10th nationally and 1st in their region and starts the first week still at #10. Loras beats Oshkosh 2-1, blanks St. Olaf 2-0, Disposes of national runner up Wheaton again 2-0, and draw with St. John's 0-0 who have alway played spoiler to the DuHawks and just beat in conference and #23 ranked St Thomas 2-1. Chicago gives up 3 goals and needs OT to squeak out a win against a team Loras dominated and held scoreless to boot. No credence is given at all for blanking Wheaton 2-0, but a draw against the Johnnies drops Loras 3 spots? So tonight Loras meets at Chicago's field and the DuHawks drops 4 goals on them and picks up another clean sheet. Doesn't seem logical.
Now I realize it is early and all, but giving up only 1 goal in 4 matches to quality sides and it brings you down 3, really?
My 2 cents have been deposited.
I was wrong.
Montclair squeaks by a Haverford group which has lost 3 tough games. Can they rebound heading into conference play? Playing a hard schedule is great but going 0-3 vs Steven's, Wesleyan and Montclair might bite them later on.
Anyone see the game?
Quote from: KICKIN95 on September 16, 2015, 10:57:17 PM
Kinda baffled by the rankings a bit. Chicago ends last season unranked Nationally with some votes received and 3rd in their region, starts this season as #16 Nationally and moves up to 10th with no wins over ranked opponents. Loras finishes last season ranked 10th nationally and 1st in their region and starts the first week still at #10. Loras beats Oshkosh 2-1, blanks St. Olaf 2-0, Disposes of national runner up Wheaton again 2-0, and draw with St. John's 0-0 who have alway played spoiler to the DuHawks and just beat in conference and #23 ranked St Thomas 2-1. Chicago gives up 3 goals and needs OT to squeak out a win against a team Loras dominated and held scoreless to boot. No credence is given at all for blanking Wheaton 2-0, but a draw against the Johnnies drops Loras 3 spots? So tonight Loras meets at Chicago's field and the DuHawks drops 4 goals on them and picks up another clean sheet. Doesn't seem logical.
Now I realize it is early and all, but giving up only 1 goal in 4 matches to quality sides and it brings you down 3, really?
My 2 cents have been deposited.
I agree KICKN95. While it makes sense that any chance at first place votes was lost in the tie with St. John's, there's a number of teams above Loras who haven't proven much of anything yet this year. Montclair St. hadn't played anybody. Chicago's rise seemed a bit premature given who they played. A few other teams also picked up draws. The real problem, though, was that Loras should have been higher in week one. Then at least if they were being dinged for the draw, they still would have been more reasonably positioned.
Also rather perplexing . . .
• #7 St. Lawrence didn't slide due to their tie with Geneseo St., while Geneseo St. did drop from #23 to unranked (essentially #33)! Really!?!? That doesn't make any sense. A tie should have pulled St. Lawrence and Geneseo St. closer in the rankings which would have meant Geneseo climbing, St. Lawrence dropping, or a combination of the two.
• Trinity (Tx.) climbed to the No. 1 ranking after needing overtime to come back from down 1-0 to beat Texas-Dallas (Shots: 23-20. SOG: 8-8). If that result could help them claim the No. 1 ranking, that suggests it was considered a quality win and, thus, a quality opponent. But, no, Texas-Dallas could only get 36 pts. Sure, that's up from 7 pts. in week one, but it's odd that the clear favorite (Top 10 ranked versus unranked and barely getting votes) would benefit more from am unexpectedly close game than the underdog.
But, I will admit that the higher than usual number of blemishes from expected Top 25 teams combined with some unexpected undefeated starts from teams not usually in the Top 25 discussion has made ranking teams a lot more difficult and opinions much more diverse.
My NSCAA top 10
1. Tufts
2. Trinity
3. Loras
4. RPI
5. F&M
6. MSU
7. Kenyon
8. Calvin
9. Amherst
10. CNU
My D3Soccer Top 10
1. Loras
2. Tufts
3. Trinity
4. RPI
5. F&M
6. MSU
7. CNU
8. Kenyon
9. Amherst
10. ECSU
Is this your up-to-the-minute rankings? Why does your top 3 change between the two?
Doesn't matter where you start, it's where you end.
They shouldn't even have rankings until at least a third of the way in.
The preseason rankings are based on basically where you finished the year before.
Half of the preseason top 25 are no longer ranked at week 2 of this year.
Wheaton and Messiah haven't clicked like they were automatically assumed to.
I must agree, Loras coaching has done a fine job working with what they have and adapting.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on September 17, 2015, 09:03:11 AM
Is this your up-to-the-minute rankings? Why does your top 3 change between the two?
Given Loras early SOS and results, I feel as though they are deserving of the #1 slot. They will not be #1 within the NSCAA, but D3soccer voters may feel differently.
Ohh. You called them "My . . . ", and that confused me. So those are your predictions for those polls.
If the D3soccer.com voters only put Loras at #10 in Week 1, and then punished them (dropped to #13) more than they did other teams for their blemishes/close calls, then I can't see them leap-frogging 12 teams to garner the top spot, especially without the top four picking up a blemish (loss or tie). I also think they are as deserving as anyone to be in the discussion of No. 1 team, but the D3soccer.com panel as a whole certainly do not regard Loras as highly as you, I, and others. Also not sure the D3soccer.com voters will catapult RPI up to #4 and ahead of some curretn Top 10 teams that haven't picked up a blemish. They'll climb, for sure, but doubt it will be as much as you predict. Why do you think Kenyon will slide from #3 to #7?
Kenyon still has a tough game at Centre this weekend. MSU will host underachieving Oneonta St. I would actually edit that to put Kenyon at 7th, with CNU 8th. I have them getting bumped due to teams continuing to win vs stronger opposition. Massey ratings has Kenyon slotted at #7 as well, with a 238 SOS. Thought process is, reward the teams for stronger wins; not keep teams in same slot just because they didn't get a blemish.
F&M will move up with their win over E-town and RPI definitely deserves to move up. Massey ratings actually has RPI at #2 currently, behind Tufts. Loras at #1 is a stretch given the early draw, but only 1 goal conceded and #5 SOS sure deserves consideration.
Looking forward to the Tufts Brandeis matchup, where I think Brandeis will get the job done.
The Messiah loss to CMU is going to look worse as the season progresses, and the draw vs Gettysburg is going to hurt. The conference title this year is no automatic for the Falcons. Their SOS and record vs ranked opportunities will be limited given their schedule (CMU, Etown, Gettsyburg, Lycoming are the only potentials). On the other hand, Messiah would need CMU to not be regionally ranked time come NCAA release late in season. The E-town match-up is going to be HUGE. If Messiah has 4-5 blemishes with one of them being to E-town and no conference title, do they make the tournament?
Completely with you on Loras. MUST be in top 3. I would wait for a couple of more games before we coronate RPI (since Oneonta has not looked like "Oneonta"). RPI is basically where Chicago was before last night.
As for Messiah, I'd wouldn't plan any funerals this early. My bet is that they will be fine. OWU had a very slow start last year and look where they ended up. And if necessary, Messiah always has winning their conference tournament to fall back on. And does anyone expect Wheaton (Ill) not to be very much in the mix come November???
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on September 17, 2015, 10:49:58 AM
Kenyon still has a tough game at Centre this weekend. MSU will host underachieving Oneonta St. I would actually edit that to put Kenyon at 7th, with CNU 8th. I have them getting bumped due to teams continuing to win vs stronger opposition. Massey ratings has Kenyon slotted at #7 as well, with a 238 SOS. Thought process is, reward the teams for stronger wins; not keep teams in same slot just because they didn't get a blemish.
I get what you are saying and agree with rewarding higher quality wins and reshuffling teams. But your Top 10's seem to be a mix of where you think teams should be ranked and what you think the two panels of voters will do, rather than strictly being one or the other.
QuoteThe Messiah loss to CMU is going to look worse as the season progresses, and the draw vs Gettysburg is going to hurt. The conference title this year is no automatic for the Falcons. Their SOS and record vs ranked opportunities will be limited given their schedule (CMU, Etown, Gettsyburg, Lycoming are the only potentials). On the other hand, Messiah would need CMU to not be regionally ranked time come NCAA release late in season. The E-town match-up is going to be HUGE. If Messiah has 4-5 blemishes with one of them being to E-town and no conference title, do they make the tournament?
Messiah's room for error is the smallest it's been in a long, long time due to a weaker SOS than normal and the two early season blemishes. Finishing (overall) and effective center/target forward play are issues for the Falcons, and no matter how good they are in other aspects of the game and in other areas of the pitch, they will be vulnerable to not winning games the "should" win. This was an issue during the years Josh Wood was out injured. And actually, having a natural and effective traget/center forward has been an on-and-off issue since the Bills/DMac years with players who are better playing elsewhere being forced into the position at times. Even last year, while Jeremy Payne certainly didn't do bad up top, he was clearly better suited in his attacking midfield role of the previous two seasons. Messiah has won national titles in years where this has been an issue, but they need to find a way to overcome it and find a way to win games like last night before they find themselves
maybe needing the conference AQ to go to the dance. But they're not at that point yet, and a lot would have to go wrong for them to not be in the tournament. This is a pretty good team and given they are only a few games into the rebuilding from the loss of one of the best classes of players in D-III history, it's way too early to know where this team can go this year. Like I said before the season started, this year is the biggest test of coach McCarty's tenure, and these early set-backs have only reinforced the challenge he's facing.
As a Messiah fan, I'd love to be proven wrong, but I think the Messiah dominance of D-III is over. Not because they are weakening (their recruiting is as strong as ever judging by some of this year's freshmen and the level they are playing at from day one), but there has been a rising tide across D-III over the past 10 years, much fewer easy outs, and lots of other programs that have been closing the gap on Messiah for some time now. Quite frankly, I was surprised how long their wave of titles stretched when it was apparent that the gap had significantly narrowed, and that's what makes the 10 titles all the more impressive. They will be a national title contender for the foreseeable future, but I don't expect them to be champions two out of every three years. The rest of the field is just too good and too deep for that anymore. (Now here's hoping McCarty and the boys go out and prove me wrong and are collecting trophy number 13 in December 2017!).
Quote from: Homegrown Harry on September 17, 2015, 09:58:13 AM
Doesn't matter where you start, it's where you end.
They shouldn't even have rankings until at least a third of the way in.
The preseason rankings are based on basically where you finished the year before.
Half of the preseason top 25 are no longer ranked at week 2 of this year.
Wheaton and Messiah haven't clicked like they were automatically assumed to.
I must agree, Loras coaching has done a fine job working with what they have and adapting.
Homegrown,
Totally agree, we will not have meaningfull rankings until 1/3 or perhaps 1/2 of the season completed. Preseason polls are essentially meaningless until someone can analyze in quantitative form the result: impact of seniors graduating, freshmen/transferred student-athletes matriculation into the programs, (team chemistry), coaching changes, and how these all interact with SOS, early season player fitness, which can relate to potential injuries to starters, (specifically impact players).
As I have stated before, pre/early season polls are fun to watch and debate but until some history is made, largely inaccurate. And of course this goes for Basketball, Baseball, etc etc!!
That Tufts v Brandeis match will be a battle as I posted before Brandeis has 10 days off until that match. Tufts has two tough Nescac games this week-end before the match. It will be a great matchup and I will preview it next week but Tufts certainly has the advantage because they will be playing on Kraft field which is grass. The grass has always slowed the "DICE" down a bit in past years.
Quote from: swibbles on September 17, 2015, 12:40:58 AM
I was wrong.
Don't take it too hard, Swibbles. Like the great Carl Jung once said, "The pendulum of the mind alternates between sense and nonsense, not between right and wrong." You talk sense, not nonsense.
With 30 min to go....Austin Juniet (TMC) 2 Centre 0
A little brawling (literally) going on over there in Kentucky. Already has been 1 red card. More coming?
Yep, 2 more reds. Centre down to 9 men and TMC with 10. One of Centre's primary strikers out for Kenyon game.
TMC @ OWU will be an interesting one. TMC can be very chippy. They seem to thrive on some extracurricular action, and some of their fans love to get into the match, so to speak. I noticed the game is scheduled for 2:00, which seems odd as OWU usually plays at night, but probably good to limit the tailgating hours for the visitors from Crestview Hills. Also an important game for BOTH teams.
EIGHT cards total in the Centre-TMC game, 4 for each team, ALL in the 2nd half, with 3 reds.
How ridiculous are these pay-for-view schools?? Thought I would check in on Trinity (TX) vs Univ Dallas since it is 0-0 getting late, and see I'd have to pay $7.99 to watch.
Meanwhile, the Little Giants of Wabash extremely quietly are 7-0. Decent wins last 2 games over Rose Hulman and Hanover.
On D3soccer.com (http://d3soccer.com), the new "Standings" drop-down menu includes a link to a list of undefeated teams. Currently there are 42 undefeated men's teams (http://www.d3soccer.com/seasons/men/2015/undefeated-teams), 25 of which are perfect.
Univ Dallas 1 Trinity (TX) 0 Final
OK, make that 41 undefeated men's teams (http://www.d3soccer.com/seasons/men/2015/undefeated-teams), 24 perfect.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on September 18, 2015, 07:16:36 PM
OK, make that 41 undefeated men's teams (http://www.d3soccer.com/seasons/men/2015/undefeated-teams), 24 perfect.
Not to mention that there goes the D3soccer.com #1 team in the country!
Out of the unblemished, best chance to run the table in the regular season?
Franklin & Marshall, Whitworth
Decent chances?
UMass-Boston or ECSU (they play 10/10 and UM-B has Wentworth on 9/22 and @Babson on 10/7)
GAC
Montclair if they can get by Oneonta tomorrow (and Oneonta needs that game)
Nebraska Wesleyan might have a good shot but only if they can beat Wartburg tomorrow
Not unblemished, but CNU could go unbeaten.
If by chance MSU stays perfect, they could be #1 (unlikely) by the time they play Rutgers-Camden...
When was the last time a team hosted two #1s in the same season? Ever?
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on September 18, 2015, 08:43:40 PM
Not unblemished, but CNU could go unbeaten.
If by chance MSU stays perfect, they could be #1 (unlikely) by the time they play Rutgers-Camden...
When was the last time a team hosted two #1s in the same season? Ever?
If they manage to get by Oneonta tomorrow MSU has an excellent chance to be unblemished going into the Camden game.
NCAC Top 5
1) Loras
2) F&M
3) Tufts
4) Whitworth
5) Montclair
In regards to Ryan's comments on CNU dominating the box score; game was even in terms of shots until Camden got a red card late in the game. CNU outshot them 9-1 in OT, with both teams missing one quality chance.
Oneonta St vs Montclair St game of the day?
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 19, 2015, 11:36:08 AM
Oneonta St vs Montclair St game of the day?
Probably.
Other big games...
Wesleyan-BowdoinHaverford-Hopkins
Swat-F&M
Geneseo-Hobart
St Olaf-GAC
Conn-Tufts (just because)
Middlebury-AmherstOhio Northern-Case WesternHope-Calvin
Loras-DePauwPotsdam-RPISkidmore-PlattsburghWhitworth-Willamette
TCNJ-Newark
Dominican-North Park
Upset Alert -- Denison @ Capital
Preliminary Saturday Roundup
HUGE win for DePauw over Loras, and stats suggest DPU more than held their own. A dangerous team coming out from under the radar.
Colby gets biggest win in a long time and looked like they won the national title. Congrats to the Mules. 2-1 2nd OT over Williams.
Bowdoin gets critical win over Wesleyan in 2 OTs.
GAC LOSES to St. Olaf 4-2. Another unblemished team goes down.
Wentworth loses to WNEC.
ECSU's close calls come back to roost, saddled with a draw to Plymouth State.
Case Western snags major Great Lakes win over Ohio Northern.
Hamilton steals a NESCAC road game at Trinity (CT).
Amherst scores in 1st minute and holds off Midd for 89 minutes.
KZoo loses again....may be done.
F&M remains unblemished with narrow 1-0 win over Swat.
UMass-Boston remains among the unblemished with 2-0 win over Rhode Island College.
Hobart knocks off Geneseo.
RPI up 2-1 at half over Potsdam.
Denison 1-1 at half with Capital.
Haverford with a key Centennial win over Hopkins.
F&M's win over Swat looks a little weak. Swat played with 10 men for almost 70 minutes. F&M didn't score until 68th minute. Stats almost even.
Loras played 24 guys in game with DPU.
Denison survives Capital in OT, goes to 6-0.
Wabash 7-0
Denison 6-0
Kenyon 5-0
DePauw 5-0-1
Not bad for 15th best conference in the country, and that's not even counting OWU.
Plattsburgh stats frozen at 87:34 up 2-1 over Skidmore. Gonna assume Plattsburgh won.
Rochester comes from behind, including game winner with under 30 secs left to edge RIT 3-2.
Lycoming quietly 6-1.
Webb for CMU notches 2 more goals as CMU is crushing Bethany.
Willamette has held Whitworth through one half, 0-0.
Rowan up on Messiah 1-0
Lastguy, what's up with no video for NJAC games?
Maybe money is a factor?
Camden beats WPU 3-1, shot count 9-9 (same as WPU vs RPI box score). WPU with more corner kicks...
Messiah down 3-0 to Rowan. A loss would surely see the falcons fall out of region top 10... Or close to it.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on September 19, 2015, 08:13:37 PM
Messiah down 3-0 to Rowan. A loss would surely see the falcons fall out of region top 10... Or close to it.
4-0
Can Greensboro hold on for 7 more min vs CNU...
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on September 19, 2015, 08:42:25 PM
Can Greensboro hold on for 7 more min vs CNU...
Mushed them... CNU equalizes...
Messiah Loses 2-4
End of an era.
South Atlantic region shaking things up... MSU loses in 89th min. Rowan puts up 4 on Messiah for the win, Gboro in OT with CNU... #1 ranking is up for grabs in the near future.
Several one loss NJAC teams, Maryville with a draw, Salisbury with another close one, Birmingham Southern with another W over Covenant but still overall soft schedule
Newark beats TCNJ with under 5 seconds to go...
Oneonta with enormous gut-check win AT Montclair. Now Oneonta could be off and running. A ton of talent.
We will hear a ton about Messiah and doomsday predictions. Tonight reminds me of last year OWU losing at home 4-1 to Otterbein. Watched most of the game and the talent is still there for Messiah. Way to early to think the Falcons won't be there at the end.
Time to pump up UW-Whitewater a little. Undefeated. Beat Wittenberg 7-0. Witt isn't great but not terrible either.
I second that, UWW is 7-0 and has only given up 3 goals. Have always had a stout defense, but now have an all-american candidate in a forward Dylan Hottsmith, who has 6 goals and 5 assists in only 7 games.
I'm with you NCAC...way too early to write off Messiah.
The talent is there. I think McCarty will have to tinker with some things but count me not surprised to see their name late in November still playing. It's not about how you're playing at the 3 to 4 week mark. It's how you're playing in October and November. My eyes will never adjust to seeing them give up 4 goals at home (and for the 2nd time already this year) and lose but I would bet my mortgage that they don't do it again this year.
In 2008 they lost a conference game, a non-conference game, and had 2 ties. They still went the distance.
As for the NCAC...holy crap. Four undefeated teams who all look to be legitimate and OWU isn't 1 of them. With a 4 team conference tournament, things will get interesting. These teams will beat up on 1 another.
Case Western is a quiet 6-1 with their only loss being in OT to Thomas More. They are my sleeper pick in the UAA. We always take about Rochester, Brandeis, Wash U, etc. I'm picking them over everyone else.
Messiah is still a good team no doubt.
I am by no means writing them off.
My only point is that soccer is 95% mental and 5 % physical.
It is not just Messiah, but many of the big boyz are finding out this season that the psychological edge (1-0 lead before opening whistle) they had over other teams is no longer there.
Once a team thinks they can beat you, they can beat you.
We are looking at a new d3 reality from here on out.
Invincible teams are a thing of the past.
Quote from: Saint of Old on September 19, 2015, 09:51:01 PM
Messiah is still a good team no doubt.
I am by no means writing them off.
My only point is that soccer is 95% mental and 5 % physical.
It is not just Messiah, but many of the big boyz are finding out this season that the psychological edge (1-0 lead before opening whistle) they had over other teams is no longer there.
Once a team thinks they can beat you, they can beat you.
We are looking at a new d3 reality from here on out.
Invincible teams are a thing of the past.
I think you are keying in on the most important aspect of all this. The passing/fading of the aura of invincibility which has both bolstered Messiah and handicapped their opponents is what a result like this may end up symbolizing the most. The Falcons held onto that aura much longer than anyone could have imagined was possible back when Messiah beat Rowan on their home field on a crisp, cold Thanksgiving weekend in 2000. Every time it seemed the aura might be fading, they would go on to climb to the top of the mountain yet again, and again, and again. Maybe it's fitting it was Rowan who did the business tonight. There's lots of talent on this Messiah squad--that's not the problem--but experience and leadership is down and after tonight confidence probably is as well. Now the Falcons are going to need to climb back up the mountain without the advantage of that aura. It certainly can be done (and it's way too early to bet against that happening), but the challenge of doing so has grown.
That's the great thing about sports and especially soccer. Anybody can beat anybody with enough effort and luck. It's fun to see how competitive everything is so far this year and I think we are in for a treat come tournament time! Only thing about the Messiah loss is that they got thrashed at home. Disappointing for them to perform like that at home. Crazy how it's either they give up 4 or get a shutout. Not a good pattern!!!
After being stuffed with an embarrassing Thanksgiving feast of soccer yesterday, we wake up with stomachs still full, chores to do, but still a surprisingly strong slate of games for a Sunday, especially given that we are still in pre-UAA season mode.
The NESCAC faithful are already back from the gym and fine-tuning internet video connections for games today that are all the more interesting after yesterday's stunning results.
A torrid Colby band of brothers deeply inspired by NCAC New England devaluation looks to garner a rare NESCAC double for the weekend facing a valiant, but winless-in-NESCAC Conn College outfit that again challenged Tufts as much as any team in the country, since, well, the last time Conn played Tufts. The question is....who will have the biggest hangover today....Colby, from a night of raucous celebration in the streets of downtown Waterville...or Conn, from exhaustion, more travel, and dreams of at least 4 defenders not preventing Majumber from walking himself into the old onion bag?
There's no way those free-spirited, squash-buckling Bantams from Hartford drop in on Medford today and steal a win from the Jumbos the day after the Continentals ruined Trinity's traditional Foam Party bash, is there? Probably not.
And what to make of suddenly down and out Williams, trudging down the coast of Maine after an indigestible loss to face the lobster-loving (and #1 ranked college dining) Polar Bears of Bowdoin? Logic points to Bowdoin, especially after a confidence-building (and first win over Wesleyan in 5 years) triumph, and of course that means Williams will play like Williams and still get out of Maine with a win (just a different one than most of us thought).
Amherst follows up their "we're still the the bullies on the block" conquest of Middlebury to face.........ELMS? Really, Amherst??? Really?
Elsewhere, Trinity (TX), fresh off their first #1 ranking in a while...and also a loss to Univ of Dallas in AT&T Stadium, leaves behind the glitter of Jerry's World and takes for the Rockies to meet a Colorado College side that is riding "high" to knock Trinity down another peg and gain revenge for Trinity keeping the "hempsters" out of the NCAA tournament last year.
Kenyon heads down to Bourbon country to face Centre at the Colonels' famed "distillery of no return" hillside stadium. The first real road trip for many of the Lords' youngsters, and the Colonels are in a foul mode after getting the worst of their fight (literally) with their Hatfield neighbors from Thomas More.
Speaking of TMC, the Saints (now, that's funny) head up the road to Delaware, OH to tangle with an ornery Battling Bishops bunch who are shuddering at the thought of another Jay Martin "It's a privilege for you to wear the OWU jersey and you better damn well act like it" speech. For their part, the Saints (and their fans) have had this game circled on their nunchucks all summer. This is the game to watch today if you have the D3 Soccer Sunday Package with your internet provider.
What to make of SLU? Will these "Saints" allow Buffalo State to leave "chips" all over their pristine pitch?
And, of course, the game most of you on the East Coast are holding your breath for....can Nebraska Wesleyan keep their unblemished streak alive away at Wartburg?
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 19, 2015, 06:16:36 PM
Denison survives Capital in OT, goes to 6-0.
Wabash 7-0
Denison 6-0
Kenyon 5-0
DePauw 5-0-1
Not bad for 15th best conference in the country, and that's not even counting OWU.
Don't forget Oberlin. Bizarre schedule they have - 11 hellacious road games, only 7 at home. Denison is OK - talent sprinkled throughout their starting 11 - but I thought Oberlin was a better team - having seen both play. It will be extremely difficult for Oberlin to make the NCAC playoffs as they will have to pull off a few big road wins to get there.
Quote from: Midwest Soccer on September 19, 2015, 09:44:07 PM
I'm with you NCAC...way too early to write off Messiah.
The talent is there. I think McCarty will have to tinker with some things but count me not surprised to see their name late in November still playing. It's not about how you're playing at the 3 to 4 week mark. It's how you're playing in October and November. My eyes will never adjust to seeing them give up 4 goals at home (and for the 2nd time already this year) and lose but I would bet my mortgage that they don't do it again this year.
In 2008 they lost a conference game, a non-conference game, and had 2 ties. They still went the distance.
As for the NCAC...holy crap. Four undefeated teams who all look to be legitimate and OWU isn't 1 of them. With a 4 team conference tournament, things will get interesting. These teams will beat up on 1 another.
Case Western is a quiet 6-1 with their only loss being in OT to Thomas More. They are my sleeper pick in the UAA. We always take about Rochester, Brandeis, Wash U, etc. I'm picking them over everyone else.
Good call on Case. While they have good talent I think their most outstanding attribute is the collective heart with which the team plays. They are tough as nails without being dirty. They can grind it out and control the midfield - I've seen teams with more talented midfielders but not one that plays with more determination and heart.
Anybody got a score on the Alumni game (aka Puffin Bowl) at Maine-Presque Isle?? Should be deep into the 2nd half.
Thomas More beating up on Ohio Wesleyan 5-1 with 15 left to play!
Trinity (TX) reeling, losing 3-1 to Colorado College.
Kenyon survives at Centre, 2-0.
Austin Juniet gets my vote for NPOY.
Prairie Wolves of Nebraska Wesleyan succumb to Wartburg 2-0.
The NWC is looking weak this year which gives Whitworth a VERY GOOD chance to enter NCAA tournament undefeated.
The superpowers are stumbling, but don't count them out.
Trinity (TX) loses two in a row. Wheaton (Ill) was held to a draw by RHIT last night AT HOME. OWU has lost two in a row. Messiah was down 4-0 at home before falling 4-2. Loras drops a big intersectional matchup away at DePauw. Struggling Oneonta may have righted the ship with a crucial win away at Montclair. Williams salvages the Maine trip with a big win over hard-luck Bowdoin who seem better than a 1-2 conference start would suggest.
Teams that should see significant rise in the rankings....roughly in this order.
Amherst (yet to concede goal)
RPI
Whitworth
UW-Whitewater
Plattsburgh
Calvin (29 goals for, 2 against)
DePauw
Brandeis
Thomas More
Case Western
Wash U
Rowan
Denison
UMass-Boston
Drew
Eastern
Lycoming
Wabash
Birm-Southern
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 20, 2015, 08:19:06 PM
Teams that should see significant rise in the rankings....roughly in this order.
Amherst (yet to concede goal)
RPI
Whitworth
UW-Whitewater
Plattsburgh
Calvin (29 goals for, 2 against)
DePauw
Brandeis
Thomas More
Case Western
Wash U
Rowan
Denison
UMass-Boston
Drew
Eastern
Lycoming
Wabash
Birm-Southern
NCAC, what do u think the deal is with everyone's early favorites Wheaton, Loras and trinity, especially Wheaton with their preseason superstar midfielders?
I think it's still very early. I think most of us overreact to results that seem worse than they are. I expect most or all of these teams to make the tournament and be a team you don't want to play or even favorites. Losing early, IF YOU RECOVER, can be a good thing and take some pressure off. Being undefeated tends to take on a pressure all it's own. Let's look a few of them...
Loras -- I and maybe others were ready to make them the #1 team, so I don't make much of an away loss to a team that is now going to be ranked. 2-0 is deceiving (often that is the case) as DePauw scored early, Loras chased the equalizer for the rest of the game and then conceded another goal late. Game could have gone either way, in other words.
Trinity -- They WERE the #1 team, so they had been doing something right. I they had a string of their toughest games, survived one, then a surprise loss, and then a loss today that if you were picking a game they might lose it would be this one away at Colorado College. I'd be very surprised if they don't run off 10-12 straight Ws.
OWU -- At 5-2-1, they are actually AHEAD of where they were last year, at 4-2-1. Time will tell if they have Final Four potential like last year's squad, but in reality they only lost a 1-0 game away at a rival in Ohio Northern (who needed a big win) and then today the scoreline looks much worse that it was. I actually would have favored them to win when they were only down 2-1, but they went down a man and the game eventually got out of hand. They also were missing two starters. Don't know why.
Wheaton and Oneonta -- Same deal. For Wheaton, most would have predicted an away loss at Loras. They also lost narrowly 3-2 to a Wash U team that has turned out to be impressive. To be honest, out of all of their stumbles the one that would concern me the most is the draw with Rose Hulman. Remember they have a new coach. They will get on a roll. And Oneonta had narrow losses to Williams away and also away to undefeated RPI. Last night's win over Montclair shows they are still very much in the mix.
One thing I agree with the NSCAA rankings is keeping your 2014 National champion #1 until they get a loss or draw. It is ridiculous that Tufts is not #1 in D3 soccer polls and please do not give me who they have played or the few games they have played.
Quote from: Mr.Right on September 20, 2015, 09:55:19 PM
One thing I agree with the NSCAA rankings is keeping your 2014 National champion #1 until they get a loss or draw. It is ridiculous that Tufts is not #1 in D3 soccer polls and please do not give me who they have played or the few games they have played.
I agree 100%! How they got bumped is ridiculous. It's their title to defend and if they haven't lost yet then how can you knock them for it?
I would agree with you if it was the same team as the one that won the NCAAs last year.
Quote from: Mr.Right on September 20, 2015, 09:55:19 PM
One thing I agree with the NSCAA rankings is keeping your 2014 National champion #1 until they get a loss or draw. It is ridiculous that Tufts is not #1 in D3 soccer polls and please do not give me who they have played or the few games they have played.
112% agreed. In addition to being defending champs, the fact that there's been a ton of parity this year and yet they haven't lost a game yet puts them above everyone else at this point.
Ummm....I think they are #1. And they should remain so. They may well be the best team. But the results thus far are thin. They've beaten Colby, Conn (barely), and Trinity. Those are solid wins but certainly towards the bottom end of NESCAC. It would be more clear-cut if they also had a win already over a Wheaton (MA) or Babson or maybe even a SLU or Plattsburgh. The Brandeis game will help, although I'm not sure the Judges can score enough to have a real chance.
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 20, 2015, 11:44:04 PM
Ummm....I think they are #1. And they should remain so. They may well be the best team. But the results thus far are thin. They've beaten Colby, Conn (barely), and Trinity. Those are solid wins but certainly towards the bottom end of NESCAC. It would be more clear-cut if they also had a win already over a Wheaton (MA) or Babson or maybe even a SLU or Plattsburgh. The Brandeis game will help, although I'm not sure the Judges can score enough to have a real chance.
Agreed they should be first. NCAC, have u seen conn college play? They are a good team, tough in the midfield.....
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 20, 2015, 09:44:24 PM
I think it's still very early. I think most of us overreact to results that seem worse than they are. I expect most or all of these teams to make the tournament and be a team you don't want to play or even favorites. Losing early, IF YOU RECOVER, can be a good thing and take some pressure off. Being undefeated tends to take on a pressure all it's own. Let's look a few of them...
Loras -- I and maybe others were ready to make them the #1 team, so I don't make much of an away loss to a team that is now going to be ranked. 2-0 is deceiving (often that is the case) as DePauw scored early, Loras chased the equalizer for the rest of the game and then conceded another goal late. Game could have gone either way, in other words.
Trinity -- They WERE the #1 team, so they had been doing something right. I they had a string of their toughest games, survived one, then a surprise loss, and then a loss today that if you were picking a game they might lose it would be this one away at Colorado College. I'd be very surprised if they don't run off 10-12 straight Ws.
OWU -- At 5-2-1, they are actually AHEAD of where they were last year, at 4-2-1. Time will tell if they have Final Four potential like last year's squad, but in reality they only lost a 1-0 game away at a rival in Ohio Northern (who needed a big win) and then today the scoreline looks much worse that it was. I actually would have favored them to win when they were only down 2-1, but they went down a man and the game eventually got out of hand. They also were missing two starters. Don't know why.
Wheaton and Oneonta -- Same deal. For Wheaton, most would have predicted an away loss at Loras. They also lost narrowly 3-2 to a Wash U team that has turned out to be impressive. To be honest, out of all of their stumbles the one that would concern me the most is the draw with Rose Hulman. Remember they have a new coach. They will get on a roll. And Oneonta had narrow losses to Williams away and also away to undefeated RPI. Last night's win over Montclair shows they are still very much in the mix.
I tend to agree with this analysis......
Quote from: Nutmeg on September 21, 2015, 12:00:44 AM
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 20, 2015, 11:44:04 PM
Ummm....I think they are #1. And they should remain so. They may well be the best team. But the results thus far are thin. They've beaten Colby, Conn (barely), and Trinity. Those are solid wins but certainly towards the bottom end of NESCAC. It would be more clear-cut if they also had a win already over a Wheaton (MA) or Babson or maybe even a SLU or Plattsburgh. The Brandeis game will help, although I'm not sure the Judges can score enough to have a real chance.
Agreed they should be first. NCAC, have u seen conn college play? They are a good team, tough in the midfield.....
Not sure what the argument is about. Tufts is #1 in one poll and #2 in another. Not much room there to move higher. They certainly aren't being disrespected. This week they may be #1 in both polls, and you'll get no argument from me if that happens. They have enough returning players and have started solidly enough to be voted #1. That said, this isn't a monarchy for gosh sakes. I don't know about any polls in any other sport or division where you're ranked the following year SOLELY based on where you finished last year. The first NSCAA poll is actually laziness as teams are just slotted exactly where they finished the year before. If a team loses 8 or 9 starters it would make no sense to presumptively be placed where you were the year before. In any case, we'll get a much better idea about Tufts being #1 over their next 5 games -- Brandeis, @Wesleyan, @Amherst, @Hamilton, Middlebury.
As for Conn College, I'm no expert on the Camels. I said in the other post that Conn was a solid, close win for Tufts (a home game remember). I know they have some very good players. I could see them possibly winning a game or two in the NCAA tournament, but to even have ANY chance at that they must finish in the top 4-5 of the NESCAC. Do you see them finishing that high? They beat Mitchell 1-0 and a 1-6 Coast Guard team 2-0 on 2 own goals. And do you really want to say that they may have the 2nd best midfield
in the entire country? Not sure how one could reach that conclusion unless you are truly comfortable that you have a good read on all of the midfields outside of the NESCAC.
Hero Sports Rankings (formerly Bennett Rankings). Strength of conference drastically influences ranking...
1 Tufts
2 Amherst
3 Franklin & Marshall
4 Calvin
5 Montclair State
6 Loras
7 Bowdoin
8 Kenyon
9 Rutgers-Newark
10 Messiah
11 SUNY_Oneonta
12 Brandeis
13 Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute
14 Middlebury
15 Williams
16 Saint Lawrence
17 Chicago
18 Stevens
19 Wesleyan
20 Dickinson
21 Haverford
22 Christopher Newport
23 North Park
24 Wheaton (MA)
25 Muhlenberg
26 Wheaton (IL)
27 Rochester
28 Rutgers-Camden
29 Gustavus Adolphus
30 Trinity Logo Trinity
MASSEY RATINGS
1 Tufts
2 Rensselaer
3 Amherst
4 Kenyon
5 Frank & Marsh
6 Plattsburgh St
7 Calvin
8 WI Whitewater
9 St Lawrence
10 MA Boston
11 Loras
12 Eastern
13 Whitworth
14 SUNY Oneonta
15 Montclair St
16 Thomas More
17 Denison
18 Rowan
19 Brandeis
20 R Stockton
21 Chris Newport
22 Cortland St
23 Chicago
24 Hobart-Smith
25 E Connecticut
--------------------
26 Lycoming
27 Messiah
28 Case Western
29 Gettysburg
30 SUNY Potsdam
NSCAA PROJECTIONS:
Central: Calvin, Chicago, North Park
East: RPI, SLU, Plattsburgh St, Oneonta St.
Great Lakes: Kenyon, Denison, CMU, Thomas More
Mid-Atlantic: F&M, Eastern, Gettysburg, Drew
New England: Tufts, Amherst, ECSU, Brandeis, MA Boston
North: UWW, Loras, St. John's, UWO
South-Atlantic: CNU, MSU, Rowan, Stockton
West: Whitworth, Colorado, UT-Dallas
National Rankings
1. Tufts
2. Kenyon
3. F&M
4. RPI
5. CNU
6. Calvin
7. UWW
8. Whitworth
9. Amherst
10. Denison
11. Loras
12. SLU
13. MSU
14. Chicago
15. Colorado
16. Eastern
17. CMU
18. ESCU
19. UT-Dallas
20. Rowan
21. Gettysburg
22. Plattsburgh St
23. North Park
24. Brandeis
25. Thomas More
RV: Drew, MA Boston, Stockton, UWO, Oneonta St.
I like your top 10, except....#10 seems a little high for Denison, #6 seems just a bit high for Calvin, and #9 seems too low for Amherst. You also don't have DePauw at all. The other ratings systems are highly problematic. DePauw doesn't make either list and Denison only appears on one of them. Not to mention Wabash and OWU.
NCAC Top 10
Tufts
F&M
Kenyon
Amherst
Whitworth
RPI
Chris Newport
UW-W
Calvin
Plattsburgh
Denison and DePauw should be in 13-18 range, along with Thomas More.
Struggled with DePauw's slot: A draw vs K-zoo and a W over Loras...
I could easily see them bumping CMU, and with Thomas More convincing win over OWU, I could see them sliding ahead of CMU as well. As you know, it all depends on the voters.
Amherst was #10 in the last poll and with MSU losing, they will slide up to the highest possible slot (#9) in the NSCAA format.
Denison was #12 in the last poll and with Loras dropping a game, they remain one of the few unbeaten, so #10 seems fitting.
Will unbeaten MA Boston bump 1 loss Brandeis (who's loss to Trinity is looking not as strong)?
Will E-town still RV after falling to #3 F&M?
The Hero Rankings would be the last poll I would consider when checking out rankings. Not sure how credible they are. Massey is the way to go along with D3soccer and NSCAA.
Crazy enough, the Hero Sports Rankings had Tufts #2-#4 frequently in the 2013 season... haha
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on September 21, 2015, 11:10:08 AM
Crazy enough, the Hero Sports Rankings had Tufts #2-#4 frequently in the 2013 season... haha
A blind squirrel finds a nut every once in a while ;D
Why do squirrels swim on their backs?
.... To keep their nuts dry
Not sure what the argument is about. Tufts is #1 in one poll and #2 in another. Not much room there to move higher. They certainly aren't being disrespected. This week they may be #1 in both polls, and you'll get no argument from me if that happens. They have enough returning players and have started solidly enough to be voted #1. That said, this isn't a monarchy for gosh sakes. I don't know about any polls in any other sport or division where you're ranked the following year SOLELY based on where you finished last year. The first NSCAA poll is actually laziness as teams are just slotted exactly where they finished the year before. If a team loses 8 or 9 starters it would make no sense to presumptively be placed where you were the year before. In any case, we'll get a much better idea about Tufts being #1 over their next 5 games -- Brandeis, @Wesleyan, @Amherst, @Hamilton, Middlebury.
If you are truly believing that the D3 poll has Experts every week deciding the rankings you are crazy. You think a bunch of SID's, AD's and others know the ins and outs of every team is ridiculous. This is not a Nescac is the best response, this is a National Champion in 2014 who is undefeated should not be passed by any teams until they lose or draw a game. Ironically, they were passed by Trinity TX who just lost 3-1 and barely beat a couple others. I put nothing into polls but the one thing I do notice is where the National Champion the previous year is at throughout the year
Quote from: Mr.Right on September 21, 2015, 12:16:29 PM
Not sure what the argument is about. Tufts is #1 in one poll and #2 in another. Not much room there to move higher. They certainly aren't being disrespected. This week they may be #1 in both polls, and you'll get no argument from me if that happens. They have enough returning players and have started solidly enough to be voted #1. That said, this isn't a monarchy for gosh sakes. I don't know about any polls in any other sport or division where you're ranked the following year SOLELY based on where you finished last year. The first NSCAA poll is actually laziness as teams are just slotted exactly where they finished the year before. If a team loses 8 or 9 starters it would make no sense to presumptively be placed where you were the year before. In any case, we'll get a much better idea about Tufts being #1 over their next 5 games -- Brandeis, @Wesleyan, @Amherst, @Hamilton, Middlebury.
If you are truly believing that the D3 poll has Experts every week deciding the rankings you are crazy. You think a bunch of SID's, AD's and others know the ins and outs of every team is ridiculous. This is not a Nescac is the best response, this is a National Champion in 2014 who is undefeated should not be passed by any teams until they lose or draw a game. Ironically, they were passed by Trinity TX who just lost 3-1 and barely beat a couple others. I put nothing into polls but the one thing I do notice is where the National Champion the previous year is at throughout the year
I have to agree that there really is no argument about Tufts getting respect. Certainly there is a question whether they are the top team in the country. While they didn't get the respect they deserved last year, they are certainly getting it this year. As Mr. Right says, they have a brutal schedule coming up. This will tell alot about Brandies, Amherst and Tufts...
I will also say that Tufts is most definitely not the same team as last year. I have said over and over that Connor Coleman is not the answer at CB. He is to slow and pales in comparison as would any to Sammy Williams. You cannot replace Williams and Kramer right away. Teams will be able to bully there way thru Tufts this season unlike last season. Brandeis is not one of them but Amherst and Midd certainly can and will. When I saw Tufts this year they are still dangerous as ever going forward but do not have the defensive presence they did last year. Conor Schiable is a good player and I think a good wing back but now he is sitting in front of the back 4 and I do not think that is the best position for him.
Quote from: Mr.Right on September 21, 2015, 12:48:28 PM
I will also say that Tufts is most definitely not the same team as last year. I have said over and over that Connor Coleman is not the answer at CB. He is to slow as pales in comparison as would any to Sammy Williams. You cannot replace Williams and Kramer right away. Teams will be able to bully there way thru Tufts this season unlike last season. Brandeis is not one of them but Amherst and Midd certainly can and will. When I saw Tufts this year they are still dangerous as ever going forward but do not have the defensive presence they did last year. Conor Schiable is a good player and I think a good wing back but now he is sitting in front of the back 4 and I do not think that is the best position for him.
I will agree with most of this. They are dangerous and fun to watch going forward. The defensive "swarming" of the midfield also keeps some pressure off the untested cb's. Further, the ablility of the midfield to maintain possession also relieves some of this pressure. The cb's will have to grow as the season goes....
Tufts not being No. 1 in the rankings likely has nothing to do with not giving the benefit of the doubt to the defending champions in general. It probably has to do with Tufts and NESCAC teams not having played any games as of the first rankings. When other top teams have already gone out there and collected wins, some voters simply won't cast their top vote for a team that has yet to play. Should top teams that haven't played get a pass and assumption they would have won if they had played? How is that fair to the teams that have played and risked their perfect record? So then when the NESCAC teams finally start play, the subsequent rankings are relative to the previous weeks' rankings. Whether all that is "fair" to the the NESCAC schools, probably not. But it isn't really "fair" for voters, either, to have to compare teams that have played with teams that have not.
As usual a fair response that I can live with. I will not lose sleep over it anyway
Yeah, no one should get worked up about it. First, championships are won in November/December, not now . . . and it has nothing to do with rankings. Second, if Tufts or anybody is the true deserving No.1 team, they'll get recognized in time as the pretenders fall. Tufts could potentially grab the No. 1 spot in this week's poll.
Ohio Wesleyan also must be careful as after looking at their schedule they have NO legit wins so far especially against presumed Ranked teams. They will need to take care of business in the NCAC and win those games against teams that are ranked and not rack up 2-3 more losses in the process.
Will be curious to see how Loras stacks up to D1 Western Illinois. Western Illinois is not a great program but congrats to them for playing the game in the first place.
Quote from: Mr.Right on September 21, 2015, 04:04:06 PM
Will be curious to see how Loras stacks up to D1 Western Illinois. Western Illinois is not a great program but congrats to them for playing the game in the first place.
I agree. How many D1 programs were scared or would never play Messiah the past several years. The results would have probably embarrassed several teams......
Mr.Right, just to close the loop on this rankings thing. I definitely do not think the D3 soccer poll is infallible and I certainly don't have a vote. It's sort of a moot point because I AGREE that at the moment Tufts should be #1 in both polls. #1 and #2 in two polls isn't bad. If the TRADITION is simply to keep the defending champs #1 until they lose NO MATTER WHAT, then I would be fine with that. I don't agree with that line of thinking, because it is a bit too ritualistic for my tastes, but I'd still be fine with it.
Looking at Lycoming's resume they also need to worry more than thought. Their wins over Scranton and York(PA) are not looking as good as once thought. If they do not win the league over Messiah they NEED against U of Rochester, Oneonta St and Messiah to go 1-0-2 at the worst IMO or 2-1-0 or possibly 1-1-1. If they go 0-3-0 they will be cooked
Miseri schedule also not that great thus far...
Summit 1-4
Ursinus 1-4-1
LVC 1-5
Arcadia 3-3-1
York 2-4-1
Camden, Messiah, Dickinson, Eastern, Kings, Manhattanville remain.
Lyco @ Mt. Aloysius
https://www.boxcast.com/show/#/men-s-soccer-vs-lycoming
Lycoming with a tough 2-0 win. Maybe underestimated Mount Aloysius a bit? Either way a road win and shut out is always a good thing if you are a coach. That makes it 7 wins in a row after losing their opener to Eastern in OT. Good response from a young group that doesn't have a Senior on the roster.
Quote from: Nutmeg on September 20, 2015, 09:03:23 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 20, 2015, 08:19:06 PM
NCAC, what do u think the deal is with everyone's early favorites Wheaton, Loras and trinity, especially Wheaton with their preseason superstar midfielders?
Nutmeg, I was thinking more about this and the whole respect issue while looking over Tufts' season last year. Tufts seemed to be stumbling just like the teams you note above right before the NCAA tournament, in theory an even more important time of the year, as they had a draw and a loss heading into the tournament and were even at some risk of not making the tournament at all. Looking at the last regional ranking suggests they were the very last team in the New England region to get a bid and therefore very much on the bubble. They also had a stretch earlier in the season where they went 0-3-1 (albeit against strong teams). 6 total blemishes. They definitely should have been ranked during the year, but I'm not so sure they got screwed to the degree that has been claimed. Everything looks a lot different in hindsight after winning the national title, but in real time, at the time, no one other than the biggest diehards would have predicted them having a good chance of winning six straight games (mostly in very convincing fashion) in the NCAA tournament.
Here was the last regional ranking in November. Tufts was definitely the last team listed that got in, and note the kind of teams that were above them (Coast Guard, Babson). If a John Carroll or another team like that doesn't get screwed (in their eyes), Tufts potentially doesn't get in.
NEW ENGLAND REGION (data sheet)
Rank School Division III Record Overall Record
1 Brandeis 16-2-0 16-2-0
2 Wheaton (Mass.) 16-2-2 16-2-2
3 Coast Guard 13-1-3 13-1-3
4 Amherst 12-1-3 12-1-3
5 Babson 14-5-0 14-5-0
6 Tufts 10-2-4 10-2-4
7 WPI 13-4-0 13-4-0
8 Gordon 14-4-1 14-4-1
9 Middlebury 9-3-4 9-3-4
10 Wesleyan 8-5-3 8-5-3
11 Nichols 12-2-4 12-2-4
Carnegie Mellon in OT with Westminster (PA). Not good for Messiah or Kenyon. I have a feeling the early excitement about CMU may turn out to be unfounded. They do have a great player and a couple of other really good ones.
0-0 Final
CMU scores 7 goals against Messiah and Kenyon and can't get 1 at home against a Westminster team that had 4 shots (1 on goal) in 110 minutes. Soccer can be a crazy game.
That's how the big guns usually bow out of the NCAA's, a game such as that. It is amazing that Messiah escaped it for so long for the most part.
Lastguy, looks like Camden spent the money for video on the baseball stadium! Impressive. Looks like a Triple A ballpark.
I am shocked Camden cannot get another conference team and host a 4 team early September tournament. If they get one of the cellar dwellers at least you might give teams a nudge to come.
http://whereru.rutgers.edu/gigapans/214/Campbells-Field
Well, I guess it's actually ABOVE Triple A....Also home to the Camden Riversharks
"The Atlantic League is the highest level of professional baseball other than the Major Leagues. Atlantic League players are all highly experienced professionals, "Major League Ready", having progressed through the developmental levels (Single-A, Double-A, Triple-A). Approximately 40% of Atlantic League players have Major League service time. Like MLB, Atlantic League clubs pay their players to win baseball games, not be apprentices as in the developmental levels."
Is it just me or is all I can hear is crickets in these Messiah forums. Do not worry folks I have not seen York play a minute this season but I would bet that Messiah comes out like gangbusters tomorrow and York will not know what hit them. However, the bleaker point of view is if they don't you will have to start questioning leadership in the veterans and the coaching staff for its inability to get this team lit with a fire under their ass.
Riversharks games are okay. Good seats for cheap, pitchers throw in the low 80s.
Camden didn't even have live stats tonight. 3-1 win over NJCU
4th at best 7th at worst for nscaa this week is my guess
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 21, 2015, 07:54:17 PM
Quote from: Nutmeg on September 20, 2015, 09:03:23 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 20, 2015, 08:19:06 PM
NCAC, what do u think the deal is with everyone's early favorites Wheaton, Loras and trinity, especially Wheaton with their preseason superstar midfielders?
Nutmeg, I was thinking more about this and the whole respect issue while looking over Tufts' season last year. Tufts seemed to be stumbling just like the teams you note above right before the NCAA tournament, in theory an even more important time of the year, as they had a draw and a loss heading into the tournament and were even at some risk of not making the tournament at all. Looking at the last regional ranking suggests they were the very last team in the New England region to get a bid and therefore very much on the bubble. They also had a stretch earlier in the season where they went 0-3-1 (albeit against strong teams). 6 total blemishes. They definitely should have been ranked during the year, but I'm not so sure they got screwed to the degree that has been claimed. Everything looks a lot different in hindsight after winning the national title, but in real time, at the time, no one other than the biggest diehards would have predicted them having a good chance of winning six straight games (mostly in very convincing fashion) in the NCAA tournament.
Here's my take. I agree that they were a bubble team. But they should have been ranked...after all, they did have the best record going into the NESCAC tourney in the toughest conference, having not lost a conference game. I believe the strength of the conference was a big factor of them just getting into the ncaa tourney. The rest is history. Yes, some say it was miraculous but they needed to have the talent to achieve what they did....and they did have the talent as recognized by a few here.
As to the statements that they're not as good of a team now compared to last year, that is probably true but they may get there....but I ask is any team at this point as good as tufts was when they won the championship? Could any other team taken down the Messiah team of last year, and could any team of this year done so? Some real food for thought....
Nutmeg, you are misunderstanding. I think they are better than last year, at least right now, at this same point compared to last year. I THINK THEY ARE THE #1 TEAM. And I said I thought they should have been ranked last year! I just think , again IN HINDSIGHT, there is an overreaction to how badly they supposedly were treated. You also seem to be discounting that being under the radar may have HELPED them win the national title. If they had entered the NCAA tournament ranked top 3 in the country, do you think other teams might have viewed them a little differently, and prepared a little differently? Would you have viewed them differently if they hadn't made the tournament or had lost in the 1st round to Dickinson? And no, they were not the only team that could have beaten Messiah. The Falcons would have been favorites against anyone, but other teams would have had a chance in a one game match.
In any case, I was responding further to your question about big teams stumbling early this year. That was the point. A few blemishes doesn't mean jack in terms of who will eventually win the tournament. Tufts proved that. And yes, they had superb talent, and they still do.
Did I see that Loras lost 5-2 tonight?!?!
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 21, 2015, 09:43:12 PM
Nutmeg, you are misunderstanding. I think they are better than last year, at least right now, at this same point compared to last year. I THINK THEY ARE THE #1 TEAM. And I said I thought they should have been ranked last year! I just think , again IN HINDSIGHT, there is an overreaction to how badly they supposedly were treated. You also seem to be discounting that being under the radar may have HELPED them win the national title. If they had entered the NCAA tournament ranked top 3 in the country, do you think other teams might have viewed them a little differently, and prepared a little differently? Would you have viewed them differently if they hadn't made the tournament or had lost in the 1st round to Dickinson? And no, they were not the only team that could have beaten Messiah. The Falcons would have been favorites against anyone, but other teams would have had a chance in a one game match.
You made valid points. I was just also following up in my reply to comments of other posters.... And yes, the under the radar did most probably help them...I think I stated the same in the past...however, I do disagree that they are better than last years team, even at this point in the season. However, they can get there with more experience for some new starters..
NCAC, you know hindsight makes everyone a genius...even me!
We'll know in another couple of weeks, but you have to compare based on thinking about where they were at this exact same time last year and block out of your mind that they ended up winning the national title. I personally think a team is going to have to play a near-perfect game to beat them (and have some good fortune) and I certainly didn't feel that way the 1st half of last season. At this point last year, it wasn't even clear if Santos and Hoppenot would be regular starters! My own take is that Amherst away is their biggest challenge and I think they are even odds for that one, and favored for every other game.
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 21, 2015, 09:54:58 PM
We'll know in another couple of weeks, but you have to compare based on thinking about where they were at this exact same time last year and block out of your mind that they ended up winning the national title. I personally think a team is going to have to play a near-perfect game to beat them (and have some good fortune) and I certainly didn't feel that way the 1st half of last season. At this point last year, it wasn't even clear if Santos and Hoppenot would be regular starters! My own take is that Amherst away is their biggest challenge and I think they are even odds for that one, and favored for every other game.
Yep, the Amherst game will be a good one! Would love to be a fly on the wall to hear Serpone's pregnant speech....The Brandeis game will be tough...and they cannot be underestimated.
Amherst needs that game more than Tufts does. And Brandeis is a perfect example. Few would have favored Tufts in the Brandeis game last year. This year they are a clear favorite (although I agree that Brandeis is a good test and the road to another very good season).
Well, let's be honest, a D1 team that was 1-5-1.
I consider Loras a d3 team that cuold hang with some of the lesser d1 teams ino disrespect to w. ill meant).
Didn't see the game so not sure what happened and honestly surprised it was that one sideed.
Four of the five goals WIU scored tonight against Loras were off of Loras' own mistakes. WIU, much like I assume many DI programs, were very fast and technical. Loras played without Rummelhart and Bradley tonight and had difficulties going 1v1 in the back with the attacking players of WIU.
Last goal WIU scored was with guys #22-31 on Loras' roster, including backup GK.
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 21, 2015, 09:49:42 PM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 21, 2015, 09:47:47 PM
Did I see that Loras lost 5-2 tonight?!?!
Yep, to a D1 team.
Got ya I didn't know they were D1. Thanks for the info! How does that factor into their SOS by playing a D1 team?
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 21, 2015, 09:49:42 PM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 21, 2015, 09:47:47 PM
Did I see that Loras lost 5-2 tonight?!?!
Yep, to a D1 team.
I wouldn't put too much into this one. Western is a D1 program and Loras sat both their star players for some much needed rest and repair. Loras scored first and the two teams traded goals to go to a 2-2 draw. Western put 3 more in while Loras tried to play with some changes and Western showed their pace up front. This was a match between friends (Rothert's former coach at Loras 22 years ago) and was more of a warmup than a true match.
Does it count for their record? How does that work?
It definitely counts, but I don't think it will have as much negative affect in rankings or selection process since it is not an in region match or anything you can get an OWP or OOWP against. I still see Loras running the table in conference and if not at least getting the AQ.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on September 21, 2015, 09:40:36 AM
NSCAA PROJECTIONS:
Central: Calvin, Chicago, North Park
East: RPI, SLU, Plattsburgh St, Oneonta St.
Great Lakes: Kenyon, Denison, CMU, Thomas More
Mid-Atlantic: F&M, Eastern, Gettysburg, Drew
New England: Tufts, Amherst, ECSU, Brandeis, MA Boston
North: UWW, Loras, St. John's, UWO
South-Atlantic: CNU, MSU, Rowan, Stockton
West: Whitworth, Colorado, UT-Dallas
National Rankings
1. Tufts
2. Kenyon
3. F&M
4. RPI
5. CNU
6. Calvin
7. UWW
8. Whitworth
9. Amherst
10. Denison
11. Loras
12. SLU
13. MSU
14. Chicago
15. Colorado
16. Eastern
17. CMU
18. ESCU
19. UT-Dallas
20. Rowan
21. Gettysburg
22. Plattsburgh St
23. North Park
24. Brandeis
25. Thomas More
RV: Drew, MA Boston, Stockton, UWO, Oneonta St.
I forgot about Washington MO in the Central Region. With 2 wins for the week, they will stay at #3 in the region.
Applying that same logic, Salisbury did not lose this week either, so they should remain in the 3rd slot, (around #20); followed by Stockton and Rowan.
Occidental out West is 6-0-2 and could slide up to the 3rd or 4th slot in the region.
Brandeis strong wins over Babson and WPI will bump ECSU (draw vs Plymouth St) to 4th in the New England Region. Slide Brandeis to #17, ECSU to #24.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on September 21, 2015, 09:25:52 PM
Riversharks games are okay. Good seats for cheap, pitchers throw in the low 80s.
Camden didn't even have live stats tonight. 3-1 win over NJCU
4th at best 7th at worst for nscaa this week is my guess
From the website:
With the victory, Rutgers-Camden raised its home record to an amazing 51-3-3 dating back to the 2011 season. Counting the last four home games in 2010, all wins, the Raptors are 55-3-3 at Rutgers-Camden Community Park since that time.
Some nice "undercard" type games today/tonight...
The headliner is probably ECSU @Gordon.
UMass-Boston at Wentworth
Curry @Johnson & Wales
Calvin @Alma
Potential hangover trap game for Thomas More @Heidelberg
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on September 22, 2015, 10:07:17 AM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on September 21, 2015, 09:40:36 AM
NSCAA PROJECTIONS:
Central: Calvin, Chicago, North Park
East: RPI, SLU, Plattsburgh St, Oneonta St.
Great Lakes: Kenyon, Denison, CMU, Thomas More
Mid-Atlantic: F&M, Eastern, Gettysburg, Drew
New England: Tufts, Amherst, ECSU, Brandeis, MA Boston
North: UWW, Loras, St. John's, UWO
South-Atlantic: CNU, MSU, Rowan, Stockton
West: Whitworth, Colorado, UT-Dallas
National Rankings
1. Tufts
2. Kenyon
3. F&M
4. RPI
5. CNU
6. Calvin
7. UWW
8. Whitworth
9. Amherst
10. Denison
11. Loras
12. SLU
13. MSU
14. Chicago
15. Colorado
16. Eastern
17. CMU
18. ESCU
19. UT-Dallas
20. Rowan
21. Gettysburg
22. Plattsburgh St
23. North Park
24. Brandeis
25. Thomas More
RV: Drew, MA Boston, Stockton, UWO, Oneonta St.
I forgot about Washington MO in the Central Region. With 2 wins for the week, they will stay at #3 in the region.
Applying that same logic, Salisbury did not lose this week either, so they should remain in the 3rd slot, (around #20); followed by Stockton and Rowan.
Occidental out West is 6-0-2 and could slide up to the 3rd or 4th slot in the region.
Brandeis strong wins over Babson and WPI will bump ECSU (draw vs Plymouth St) to 4th in the New England Region. Slide Brandeis to #17, ECSU to #24.
NSCAA NCAA Division III Men - National - Poll 2 - September 22, 2015
1 Tufts University 2 Kenyon College 3 Franklin & Marshall College4 Christopher Newport University (off by 1)
5 University of Wisconsin-Whitewater (off by 2)
6 Calvin College 7 Amherst College (off by 2)
8 Whitworth University 9 Denison University (off by 1)
10 Loras College (off by 1)
11 University Of Chicago (off by 3)
12 Montclair State University (off by 1)
13 Carnegie Mellon University (off by 4)
14 Eastern University (off by 2)
15 Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute (off by 10)
16 Brandeis University (off by 1)
17 University of Texas-Dallas (off by 2)
18 Washington University (Mo.) (late addition)
19 St. Lawrence University (off by 7)
20 Saint John's University (forgot to put them in but had them at #3 in region)
21 Occidental College (late addition)
22 Salisbury University (off by 2)
23 Drew University (off by 3)
24 Eastern Connecticut State University 25 Thomas More College Also receiving votes: Stockton University (13), Plattsburgh State University (12), Trinity University (Texas) (12), Colorado College (12), Rowan University (10), North Park University (9), Gettysburg College (3), Messiah College (3)
http://www.nscaa.com/rankings/4402
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on September 21, 2015, 09:40:36 AM
NSCAA NCAA Division III Men - National - Poll 2 - September 22, 2015
1 Tufts University
2 Kenyon College
3 Franklin & Marshall College
4 Christopher Newport University
5 University of Wisconsin-Whitewater
6 Calvin College
7 Amherst College
8 Whitworth University
9 Denison University
10 Loras College
11 University Of Chicago
12 Montclair State University
13 Carnegie Mellon University
14 Eastern University
15 Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute
16 Brandeis University
17 University of Texas-Dallas
18 Washington University (Mo.)
19 St. Lawrence University
20 Saint John's University
21 Occidental College
22 Salisbury University
23 Drew University
24 Eastern Connecticut State University
25 Thomas More College
Also receiving votes: Stockton University (13), Plattsburgh State University (12), Trinity University (Texas) (12), Colorado College (12), Rowan University (10), North Park University (9), Gettysburg College (3), Messiah College (3)
http://www.nscaa.com/rankings/4402
Darn you beat me to it by a minute
Surprised to see Amherst in the top 8 given the formula of slotting the teams geographically. Even so, it is well deserved.
3 NJAC and UAA teams in the rankings
2 NESCAC, CAC, NCAC, Centennial, Liberty League
Did I see that Loras lost 5-2 tonight?!?!
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Yep, to a D1 team.
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Got ya I didn't know they were D1. Thanks for the info! How does that factor into their SOS by playing a D1 team?
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I believe a D3 benefits none and a LEGIT D1 team would be heavily penalized for a tie or loss if they were in contention for an NCAA at-large, which this team is clearly not. If both teams are playing this like an exhibition why not schedule this in the spring. If Loras is resting players I see no point in risking injury. This D1 and D3 thing used to happen a lot in the 80's and 90's but D1's got scared off because they gained nothing from it. It still does occasionally happen when you have friends that are coaching or this or that but it is rare
Why is Calvin #6? Please tell me who they have played and the results? A 1-0 win over a "heavily inflated team in Gordon and a 0-0 tie at Endicott and a 11-0 bashing of a team that most likely could not stand on 2 legs
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on September 22, 2015, 12:04:39 PMSurprised to see Amherst in the top 8 given the formula of slotting the teams geographically. Even so, it is well deserved.
Well, the NSCAA has relaxed their formulaic regional-equality construction of their national ranking over the past few years, allowing themselves an exception or two in any given week. Baby steps!
Quote from: Mr.Right on September 22, 2015, 12:17:53 PM
Why is Calvin #6? Please tell me who they have played and the results? A 1-0 win over a "heavily inflated team in Gordon and a 0-0 tie at Endicott and a 11-0 bashing of a team that most likely could not stand on 2 legs
#21 IN D3 POLL IS WAY TO HIGH.....If we are not including SOS than why not include Middlebury's heavily inflated record
hmm...Stevens really did draw Elmira...excellent result for Elmira who used to be a constant force in Western NY for years until their sudden irrelevancy the past 10-15 years, kind of like Ithaca but not as loud a thud.
RE: latest rankings
Hopefully the Tufts faithful can breathe a little easier ;)
Just a few quibbles...
In the D3 soccer poll, not sure how CMU could be #5 even before last night's draw. I'm a big Brandeis fan but the Judges seem a little high, as they've won a bunch of 1-0 games, at least a couple of them in OT. ECSU I think is too high and more correctly ranked #24 by NSCAA. I'd have Whitworth a little higher. Salisbury seems high at #12. Plattsburgh and Denison just about right. I'd have Calvin higher than #21 even though I agree their schedule has been soft (and btw, what has happened to Hope??). DePauw at #22 is fair but they could be a little higher. I would have Thomas More ranked but can't complain since they are 1st in the RV category. Biggest omissions on D3 poll would seem to be Eastern, Drew, Case Western, and UMass-Boston.
In the NSCAA poll, #9 seems high for Denison. Odd to have Loras still at #10 but then not have unbeaten DePauw ranked at all. RPI at #15 seems low. Not sure about Eastern at #14 as I know almost nothing about Eastern or Drew. Biggest omissions on NSCAA seem to be Plattsburgh, DePauw, Case Western, UMass-Boston, and I guess Drew.
And maybe Hobart should be getting more love.
Not sure how Chicago is only one spot behind Loras. I know Loras has had a couple of slips in the past few days, and so obviously they weren't going to be top six anymore, but they absolutely FLATTENED Chicago 4-0 AWAY. The Maroons probably deserve to be in the top 20, but 11 seems very high.
Mr.Right, prediction on ECSU @Gordon today?
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 22, 2015, 01:58:58 PM
Mr.Right, prediction on ECSU @Gordon today?
Last year ECSU stuck the 2nd to final DAGGER in Gordon's backs with a 1-0 win. Then inexplicably Nicholls comes from 2-0 behind to defeat Gordon in the CCC playoffs. This game is much more important for Gordon because they are not going to beat Tufts and if they do not win their league no one else in the CCC will be regionally ranked. I say the game ends 1-0 in either direction
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 22, 2015, 01:24:45 PMIn the D3 soccer poll, not sure how CMU could be #5 even before last night's draw. I'm a big Brandeis fan but the Judges seem a little high, as they've won a bunch of 1-0 games, at least a couple of them in OT. ECSU I think is too high and more correctly ranked #24 by NSCAA. I'd have Whitworth a little higher. Salisbury seems high at #12. Plattsburgh and Denison just about right. I'd have Calvin higher than #21 even though I agree their schedule has been soft (and btw, what has happened to Hope??). DePauw at #22 is fair but they could be a little higher. I would have Thomas More ranked but can't complain since they are 1st in the RV category. Biggest omissions on D3 poll would seem to be Eastern, Drew, Case Western, and UMass-Boston.
But, of course, for every team you think is too high, you need to come up with someone who deserves to slide up in their place. I think it's been really tough (tougher than normal) for voters to get a handle on things with so many top teams picking up two or three blemishes, and some of them really ugly blemishes. Thing is, there's more teams that should slide down the rankings and maybe out of the rankings altogether than there are teams that you can be convinced are Top 25 quality, much less Top 15, Top 10 quality. In short, there's not twenty-five "Top 25" teams at the moment, nor are there ten "Top 10" teams. At least that's how it feels to me.
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 22, 2015, 01:24:45 PM
RE: latest rankings
Hopefully the Tufts faithful can breathe a little easier ;)
Just a few quibbles...
In the D3 soccer poll, not sure how CMU could be #5 even before last night's draw. I'm a big Brandeis fan but the Judges seem a little high, as they've won a bunch of 1-0 games, at least a couple of them in OT. ECSU I think is too high and more correctly ranked #24 by NSCAA. I'd have Whitworth a little higher. Salisbury seems high at #12. Plattsburgh and Denison just about right. I'd have Calvin higher than #21 even though I agree their schedule has been soft (and btw, what has happened to Hope??). DePauw at #22 is fair but they could be a little higher. I would have Thomas More ranked but can't complain since they are 1st in the RV category. Biggest omissions on D3 poll would seem to be Eastern, Drew, Case Western, and UMass-Boston.
In the NSCAA poll, #9 seems high for Denison. Odd to have Loras still at #10 but then not have unbeaten DePauw ranked at all. RPI at #15 seems low. Not sure about Eastern at #14 as I know almost nothing about Eastern or Drew. Biggest omissions on NSCAA seem to be Plattsburgh, DePauw, Case Western, UMass-Boston, and I guess Drew.
And maybe Hobart should be getting more love.
Very high rankings for Eastern and Drew. Also surprised by that. I thought Eastern might barely crack the top 25 if anything but jumping to 14 was a shock. The only tough team they have played thus far was their first game at Lycoming which they escaped in OT 1-0. Other than that their wins are average. Swarthmore I guess is an okay win? But by the looks of their schedule they are just sneaking by teams at the moment. If you look at the other side of the ball...they could run the table because of how poor their conference is. Maybe the committee was anticipating that? Hard to tell and I doubt if the committee looks that far in to it.
Lastly, it could have something to do with the coach. Mark Wagner's brother, Dan, is the head of the Middle Atlantic Region committee for NSCAA. F&M and Eastern #1 and #2 in that region...Eastern "all of a sudden" catapults into the top 15 out of no where? I think that Dan is giving his brother Mark an early Christmas present.
FW, understood. But just to take the example of CMU, here are 5 teams just off the top of my head that should be slotted ahead of CMU.....Amherst, UW-W, RPI, Whitworth, and probably Plattsburgh. And while the top 25 and top 10 may in fact be soft, I wonder if partly that is the impression because of seeing names we aren't used to seeing there. One might rhetorically ask, "Is the top 10 only legit if the usual suspects are in there?"
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 22, 2015, 03:03:14 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 22, 2015, 01:24:45 PM
RE: latest rankings
Hopefully the Tufts faithful can breathe a little easier ;)
Just a few quibbles...
In the D3 soccer poll, not sure how CMU could be #5 even before last night's draw. I'm a big Brandeis fan but the Judges seem a little high, as they've won a bunch of 1-0 games, at least a couple of them in OT. ECSU I think is too high and more correctly ranked #24 by NSCAA. I'd have Whitworth a little higher. Salisbury seems high at #12. Plattsburgh and Denison just about right. I'd have Calvin higher than #21 even though I agree their schedule has been soft (and btw, what has happened to Hope??). DePauw at #22 is fair but they could be a little higher. I would have Thomas More ranked but can't complain since they are 1st in the RV category. Biggest omissions on D3 poll would seem to be Eastern, Drew, Case Western, and UMass-Boston.
In the NSCAA poll, #9 seems high for Denison. Odd to have Loras still at #10 but then not have unbeaten DePauw ranked at all. RPI at #15 seems low. Not sure about Eastern at #14 as I know almost nothing about Eastern or Drew. Biggest omissions on NSCAA seem to be Plattsburgh, DePauw, Case Western, UMass-Boston, and I guess Drew.
And maybe Hobart should be getting more love.
Very high rankings for Eastern and Drew. Also surprised by that. I thought Eastern might barely crack the top 25 if anything but jumping to 14 was a shock. The only tough team they have played thus far was their first game at Lycoming which they escaped in OT 1-0. Other than that their wins are average. Swarthmore I guess is an okay win? But by the looks of their schedule they are just sneaking by teams at the moment. If you look at the other side of the ball...they could run the table because of how poor their conference is. Maybe the committee was anticipating that? Hard to tell and I doubt if the committee looks that far in to it.
Lastly, it could have something to do with the coach. Mark Wagner's brother, Dan, is the head of the Middle Atlantic Region committee for NSCAA. F&M and Eastern #1 and #2 in that region...Eastern "all of a sudden" catapults into the top 15 out of no where? I think that Dan is giving his brother Mark an early Christmas present.
This would not be the 1st time something like this has gone on. I am not saying this info is true that you have stated but Chris Apple up at U of Rochester used to be on the NCAA regional committee and about 7-8 years ago you would see a 8-5-3 Rochester team making the NCAA's over other deserving teams. THIS IS NOT FACT JUST RUMOR. Obviously, Coaches are out of the room when their team is being discussed but what I believe happens with the regional committee's are sometimes some individuals have their own agenda's and MAYBE sometimes you scratch my back I scratch urs goes on with not just getting teams in BUT WHO IS HOSTING.
The year that BURNS me is 2006. You had a Sweet 16 quad of a 1 loss Messiah and Williams side with a WNEC side that upset someone and a I believe 2 or 3 loss Johns Hopkins in 1 QUAD. Williams was forced to host on a Friday at 11am because of the religious thing so basically had no home field advantage and on and on I could go but the other QUADS that year were not nearly as tough. I mean you had NYU ahh forget it
Can someone just put Green Mountain out of their misery..coached by former Colby-Sawyer head coach Peter Steese they have scored 2 goals in 6games and have now lost to D3 lightweights Bard, Norwich, Johnson St, Newbury by scores of anything from 8-2 or 11-0.
Big win, a must win, for Gordon over ECSU. Messiah survives at York but outshot in the game which seems stunning.
F&M going OT with Stevenson. Stevenson GK has made numerous UNBELIEVABLE saves. And Stevenson had virtually open net to win it and F&M barely gets left paw on ball for the save and 2 minutes later A F&M defender has to to chest-clear a volley off the line. Very similar to CMU game last night. F&M leads on shots 20+ to 5.
Big question is where does ECSU go from here? They were top 25 (and deservedly so IMHO) with some big wins over Wesleyan, Muhlenberg, and Babson. They've got to go to Conn, who played Tufts close, and play UMass-Boston at a neutral venue, but I think if they go clean other than that they could be in good shape. Drop another game outside of that, though, and they might be in trouble.
Going to 2nd OT. Good video with replays and good announcer. Stevenson missed a PK in 1st minute of OT!!!
TenBrook wins it for F&M.
Quote from: blooter442 on September 22, 2015, 06:21:41 PM
Big question is where does ECSU go from here? They were top 25 (and deservedly so IMHO) with some big wins over Wesleyan, Muhlenberg, and Babson. They've got to go to Conn, who played Tufts close, and play UMass-Boston at a neutral venue, but I think if they go clean other than that they could be in good shape. Drop another game outside of that, though, and they might be in trouble.
Why is ECSU playing a league game vs UMASS Boston at a neutral venue and what venue?
Neutral win is better than a home win. Also, they won at Muhlenberg and at Wesleyan. Babson at home. If all 3 end up being regionally ranked which is a good possibility they are set. Even with tonight's loss. However I would not be losing more than a total of 3 games all year. At that point you will letting a couple Nescac's and / or Brandeis pass you
I watched the York v Messiah 2nd half and thought York had 4-5 good chances to tie that match up. I did not see the 1st half or the goal. York has some flair going forward for sure but they kept sitting with 6 and attacking with only 4 DOWN BY A GOAL WITH UNDER 20 minutes to go...GO FOR IT...There was one instance where a York player did a Messiah player 1v1 and wound up at the endline ready to cross to a sea of BLUE no WHITE JERSEYS in sight. York looked a bit gassed at the end.
And Catholic University welcomes the Pope to campus with a 2-2 draw.
Quote from: Mr.Right on September 22, 2015, 08:41:46 PM
Quote from: blooter442 on September 22, 2015, 06:21:41 PM
Big question is where does ECSU go from here? They were top 25 (and deservedly so IMHO) with some big wins over Wesleyan, Muhlenberg, and Babson. They've got to go to Conn, who played Tufts close, and play UMass-Boston at a neutral venue, but I think if they go clean other than that they could be in good shape. Drop another game outside of that, though, and they might be in trouble.
Why is ECSU playing a league game vs UMASS Boston at a neutral venue and what venue?
Neutral win is better than a home win. Also, they won at Muhlenberg and at Wesleyan. Babson at home. If all 3 end up being regionally ranked which is a good possibility they are set. Even with tonight's loss. However I would not be losing more than a total of 3 games all year. At that point you will letting a couple Nescac's and / or Brandeis pass you
I think there is some renovations going on at UMB soccer facility. Boston College High is next door in South Boston and they use their facility when available, otherwise as you can see from UMB's schedule, most of their matches are away.
BTW if ECSU plays like they did today at Gordon, they may be going nowhere in post season. However, it seems Gavin Neuendorf may have an injury and DeVito is playing a freshman in the back which has caused confusion today and at Plymouth state
I am going to reiterate that Thomas More is a team you DO NOT want to play in the NCAA tournament. In what I thought might be a trap game after the big OWU away win they are taking care of business on the road in a mid-week game at Heidelberg. One slip against Denison but they've played a very good schedule and only have 1 loss and I would bet that the Denison loss was a bit of a fluke. They are a little unpredictable, and a lot chippy, but if they go down a goal they expect to get it right back. They are very competitive and will fight for the win to the bitter end. I doubt there is any game where they don't want it more than the opponent. They come across a little bit like a rag-tag bunch and don't mind lulling you to sleep with the Hillbilly act, but they are far from all that. I also think being chippy is how they focus, and so when the opposing team falls into that trap it is the opponent that gets distracted and off their game. Having said all that, they cannot afford ANY injuries to their top 4 or 5 players.
I'm a little down on Kenyon right now. Blase 2-0 win over Muskingum in game coach obviously played a different line-up and went in expecting to get subs a lot of playing time. But beyond that, they must play with (I'm starting to write like Mr.Right lol) MATURITY, PURPOSE, and FOCUS. They are the opposite of TMC. When they fall into getting chippy or mouthy they get out of their game and LOSE FOCUS. Just like last year, they cannot assume they are good enough to coast. THEY HAVE WON NOTHING. And a couple of players would likely play better if they were more hungry and less comfortable. In other words, coming off the bench might make a few play with more fire and focus with an eye on the bigger picture. They are going to need leaders to take over and speak up, even if that means getting in someone's face and telling him to kick himself into high gear. The team, including the coaches, have to realize they can lose any game and must not be stubborn if adjustments between games and/or within games need to be made. This is part of why I don't like the high ranking. That is a sedative and leads to believing you have a larger margin of error than fits reality. Being #1 or #2 or getting a couple of big wins doesn't mean you are suddenly MESSIAH for crying out loud.
Update: When I wrote above TMC was up 2-0 in 2nd half and just saw they ended up winning 4-1. Juniet with a goal and 2 assists. Runyon with a hat trick. R J Best also is a really good player and plays with an edge.
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 22, 2015, 09:32:15 PM
I am going to reiterate that Thomas More is a team you DO NOT want to play in the NCAA tournament. In what I thought might be a trap game after the big OWU away win they are taking care of business on the road in a mid-week game at Heidelberg. One slip against Denison but they've played a very good schedule and only have 1 loss and I would bet that the Denison loss was a bit of a fluke. They are a little unpredictable, and a lot chippy, but if they go down a goal they expect to get it right back. They are very competitive and will fight for the win to the bitter end. I doubt there is any game where they don't want it more than the opponent. They come across a little bit like a rag-tag bunch and don't mind lulling you to sleep with the Hillbilly act, but they are far from all that. I also think being chippy is how they focus, and so when the opposing team falls into that trap it is the opponent that gets distracted and off their game. Having said all that, they cannot afford ANY injuries to their top 4 or 5 players.
The only action of TMC that I have seen so far this season is consistent with your stance. I caught most of their OT victory over Case. Case outpossessed TMC, who were content to sit back, absorb the Case attack, and counter forcefully when opportunities arose.
Quote from: Mr.Right on September 22, 2015, 08:45:38 PM
I watched the York v Messiah 2nd half and thought York had 4-5 good chances to tie that match up. I did not see the 1st half or the goal. York has some flair going forward for sure but they kept sitting with 6 and attacking with only 4 DOWN BY A GOAL WITH UNDER 20 minutes to go...GO FOR IT...There was one instance where a York player did a Messiah player 1v1 and wound up at the endline ready to cross to a sea of BLUE no WHITE JERSEYS in sight. York looked a bit gassed at the end.
Usually everybody that plays Messiah is gassed by the end of 90 minutes.
Game winner in the 90th minute of the UW Whitewater vs. St. Norbert match. Would hate to have to cover Whitewater's 6 8 center back on corners.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ew9YvnQQe2Q
Did Wabash win?
You guys always seem to be posting exactly at the same time, on the rare occasions that either of you post. Roommates?
Wabash is 8-0.
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 23, 2015, 08:59:38 AM
Quote from: Mr.Right on September 22, 2015, 08:45:38 PM
I watched the York v Messiah 2nd half and thought York had 4-5 good chances to tie that match up. I did not see the 1st half or the goal. York has some flair going forward for sure but they kept sitting with 6 and attacking with only 4 DOWN BY A GOAL WITH UNDER 20 minutes to go...GO FOR IT...There was one instance where a York player did a Messiah player 1v1 and wound up at the endline ready to cross to a sea of BLUE no WHITE JERSEYS in sight. York looked a bit gassed at the end.
Usually everybody that plays Messiah is gassed by the end of 90 minutes.
It was not like York was chasing Messiah in the 2nd half. They had the ball just as much as Messiah and about 7 minutes of the 2nd half were wasted on Messiah substitutions. To me it looked like York was not a very fit team. Messiah's fitness was much better
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 23, 2015, 12:05:14 PM
You guys always seem to be posting exactly at the same time, on the rare occasions that either of you post. Roommates?
Wabash is 8-0.
Good for the Little Giants. We used to be roommates. Now have to settle for a text conversation that occasionally spills onto the boards :P
MSU and NJCU tied at the half; 0-0. Shot count is only 8-3 in favor of MSU.
That SLU field really is a thing of beauty. How do they do that in Canton, NY??? 0-0 with Plattsburgh in 2nd half. Probably game of the day by far.
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 23, 2015, 05:19:36 PM
That SLU field really is a thing of beauty. How do they do that in Canton, NY??? 0-0 with Plattsburgh in 2nd half. Probably game of the day by far.
That would be Terry Hewitt, the master grounds keeper at SLU. That guy is practically a certified field barber.
Very nice goal....SLU scores.
Class operation. Beautiful pitch. Very good video. Good announcer. Crawl at the bottom with stats. Good PA announcer with nicknames for goal scorers. Love it.
LOL, well maybe not a nickname....I guess real name is Tapshack.
We really do have a great dedication to athletics. I take it for granted sometimes. I still have a gym membership on campus and the facilities are all ridiculously well maintained. You should see the field house.
Quote from: stlawus on September 23, 2015, 05:43:37 PM
We really do have a great dedication to athletics. I take it for granted sometimes. I still have a gym membership on campus and the facilities are all ridiculously well maintained. You should see the field house.
Is field house for hockey or bball? It's D1 hockey, right?
Great win for the Saints. Still missing 2 starters and getting the win against a very good Plattsburgh squad. It's never easy for visitors to get a result on Sandy.
Quote from: stlawus on September 23, 2015, 05:43:37 PM
We really do have a great dedication to athletics. I take it for granted sometimes. I still have a gym membership on campus and the facilities are all ridiculously well maintained. You should see the field house.
College campuses are the best things in the United States. Wish I could take 2 years off and visit all of them.
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 23, 2015, 05:53:39 PM
Quote from: stlawus on September 23, 2015, 05:43:37 PM
We really do have a great dedication to athletics. I take it for granted sometimes. I still have a gym membership on campus and the facilities are all ridiculously well maintained. You should see the field house.
Is field house for hockey or bball? It's D1 hockey, right?
The field house is for indoor track, but also has tennis and basketball courts. It's an underground state of the art facility.
One of most impressive NCAA performances of last 2-3 years had to be SLU 8 Wheaton (MA) 0....on that field.
Camden up 4-0 on Miseri 20 min in
5-0 now 25:00 in
Mike Ryan of Rutgers-Camden with three goals
Now 6-0 at the 25:00 mark.
This is really something - is anyone there you can report on what's happening?
Now 7-0 at 27:00
Are these live stats correct?
Watching Christopher Newport vs Lynchburg. Very good soccer. High speed with both teams showing skills and purpose in their play. Could be the video angle but looks faster and higher quality than a lot of D3 soccer. Lynchburg just scored to go up 1-0 near end of 1st half, slightly against run of play. Another great D3 venue at Newport.
Passed on the game at Camden because of the pope in philly. Traffic is probably a nightmare
UW Whitewater falls at home to Concordia University Wisconsin 2-1 in OT
Quote from: Wisco21 on September 23, 2015, 08:04:25 PM
UW Whitewater falls at home to Concordia University Wisconsin 2-1 in OT
What?? Game report?
Lynchburg-CNU and Rose Hulman-DePauw both going to OT.
Rose Hulman spoils the momentum of DePauw, apparently winning on an own goal in OT. Another unbeaten by the boards.
Lynchburg-CNU ends in a 1-1 draw. That was a very high quality D3 soccer game. Very fast faced, good soccer for 110 minutes. Like a NCAA tourney game. I don't think some of those ODAC schools get credit for how good they are.
Rose Hulman must have a pretty good soccer program. The major away upset of OWU couple of years ago, draw AT Wheaton (Ill) a few days ago, and knock off DePauw away in OT.
NCAC- wasn't at the match, was only able to follow live stats. Maybe D3 Scout was present? Pretty sure his side is UWW.
Hardly any one is making a case to be Top 10 much less No. 1 as the ties and losses continue to pile up for ranked teams. Tonight No. 4 Christopher Newport picked up a second tie, finishing 1-1 versus visiting Lynchburg, No. 8 UW-Whitewater dropped their first game, a 2-1 overtime loss to visiting Concordia (Wis.), No. 12 Salisbury lost for the second time this year, falling 1-0 to visiting Eastern, No. 16 Elizabethtown was held to a scoreless draw by Alvernia to add a tie to last week's loss to F&M, and No. 22 DePauw added their first loss to last week's tie, falling 3-1 in overtime to Rose-Hulman.
Anyone seen Rose Hulman play? Impressed with the DePauw win. How good is this team?
Transylvania vs Thomas More today. Transylvania lost 1-0 last year on the road, won 1-0 at home in 2013. Judging by the 4 draws that they already have (3 of which were 0-0 games), goals will be at a premium here. Another 0-0 result wouldn't surprise me.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on September 24, 2015, 02:57:24 PM
Transylvania vs Thomas More today. Transylvania lost 1-0 last year on the road, won 1-0 at home in 2013. Judging by the 4 draws that they already have (3 of which were 0-0 games), goals will be at a premium here. Another 0-0 result wouldn't surprise me.
A night game right in the heart of Lexington? No way Transy holds the Saints scoreless. 4-1 TMC.
2-1 TMC
2-0 final TMC
Today's Games
Today's SUNYAC tilts don't seem especially compelling, with Brockport vs Buffalo State looking like the best of the bunch (but some good ones for tomorrow).
Grove City @CMU is a top sleeper pick. Grove City is a pretty good under-the-radar side and CMU can't live off of the Messiah win forever. Time for CMU to make a statement before entering the UAA battlefields.
Chicago @Wheaton (ILL) is a VERY compelling contest. Wheaton was a top pick preseason, and Chicago was grabbing the limelight before getting bombarded by a flock of Duhawks. A win for either side would help that team get their train back on the rails.
Another sleeper is UW-Oshkosh vs North Park. Now that UW-W finally stumbled maybe another UW can re-direct the spotlight a little bit. North Park is one of those teams that almost no one on East Coast even knows where it is, and yet they are always in the mix and usually with a talented, international bunch.
Saturday
The games of the day have got to be in the New England region with Brandeis @Tufts and Amherst @Williams. Tufts has become the media darling that many of us are very intrigued about. Is Tufts clearly the top team in the country and in the early stages of a multi-year run, or will the Jumbos come back to the pack? While there will be an immediate reaction either way after this game, in truth not much is really riding on this one and both teams should be fine whatever the result. A result from Brandeis could send a message to UAA foes, though, and the other NESCAC outfits might be heartened to see that Tufts isn't absolutely unbeatable. No extra words are needed for Amherst vs Williams. Just mentioning the two schools in the same sentence is enough.
The Best of the Rest looks like....
OWU @Denison (nothing like OWU coming to town to put an end to Denison's dream start)
Oneonta @Cortland (a SUNYAC showdown)
Middlebury @Bowdoin (must win now for the Polar Bears)
Oberlin @DePauw (Oberlin upset DePauw in the Yeomen's last visit to Greencastle and DPU can ill afford a loss after dropping a home OT game to RHIT)
Bates @Wesleyan (Bates is trending positive for the first time in how many years? ....Wesleyan can't afford to drop a home affair to a perennial NESCAC doormat with brutal games ahead)
Puget Sound @Whitworth (the crystal ball says Whitworth will be ready for this one)
Wheaton (MA) @WPI (Wheaton has quietly put a good streak together and WPI needs to beat a good team after a soft early schedule)
Lycoming @Rochester (the kind of win Lycoming needs unless they plan on taking out Messiah in the conference tourney, but this is just the type of game UR usually wins to keep themselves in reach of a bid)
Gettysburg @Muhlenberg (seems like the odds favor the Mules finally getting a good win)
Texas-Dallas @Concordia (TX) (never heard of Concordia or knew there are about five Concordia's [the Wisconsin branch knocked off UW-W] in the country until seeing them on the unblemished list)
Gordon @Wentworth (I see Gordon going on a little run and without a win Wentworth will likely be fading)
Potsdam @Plattsburgh (Plattsburgh determined not to lose two in a row)
Rutgers-Newark @Rowan (a key NJAC collision to see who may challenge Montclair and Camden)
Grove City up 1-0 on CMU (mid way thru first half)
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 24, 2015, 10:33:08 PM
2-0 final TMC
Transy put 10 men behind the ball for large parts of the game - TM was content - and patient - to knock it around from one side to the other, bringing the ball all the way back to the center back to restart. No red cards or anything that came close to boiling over. The most touches any single player had during one possession might have been four. Two - three touch - very simple.
Quote from: Domino1195 on September 25, 2015, 05:08:33 PM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 24, 2015, 10:33:08 PM
2-0 final TMC
Transy put 10 men behind the ball for large parts of the game - TM was content - and patient - to knock it around from one side to the other, bringing the ball all the way back to the center back to restart. No red cards or anything that came close to boiling over. The most touches any single player had during one possession might have been four. Two - three touch - very simple.
And the TMC coach never put his best players back in after taking them out early to midway through the 2nd half. They actually showed more ability for pure possession than I had seen before. Their defense seems to be getting better too.
Nice comeback by CMU. Kept grinding it out until finally got a breakthrough goal around 60 minute mark and now up 3-1 and looking pretty comfortable.
Watched most of Wheaton and Chicago. Wheaton won with a scrappy kind of goal inside of two minutes left.
I had an odd feeling watching this one. It was a high level game with both teams skilled. Wheaton has some huge players and Chicago is a very small team. I was actually impressed by Chicago's level of play and skill. But while the action was fast and pretty good soccer, Wheaton especially seemed kind of frenetic without real clear ideas about what they were doing. It was kind of a boring game to watch which seemed strange given the speed and quality of play between the 18s. Really very few decent chances for either team and not many total shots.
UW-Oshkosh 7-1-1 after winning away at North Park 2-1. Great story there. Only loss was first game of the season to Loras 2-1.
Was at the North Park-UWO match last night. Very entertaining footy, beautiful weather, great atmosphere from the NP hooligans, best possible way I could've spent my Friday evening. First half Oshkosh came out like gangbusters and hit North Park right in the mouth. They high pressed, moved the ball quick, and found space in behind the Viking's defense. North Park had some stretches towards the final minutes of the first 45 but you could tell they definitely weren't expecting such energy from UWO. The Titans scored off of their high pressing, a shot was coughed up by the keeper and stuffed in the net. UWO kept a good job of keeping Pedram Tahmi-Masoleh quiet.
Halftime 1-0 UWO.
Second half, both teams matched each others intensity at first, NP started gaining more and more possession as the match went on. It got increasingly chippy. Oshkosh had the counter going and drew a penalty in the 80th and converted. However in the 85th a mistake by the Titan's keeper let North Park back into the match at 2-1. UWO eventually held on for the W.
I predict that both of these squads will be forces to reckoned with during the second half of the season.
I see Serpone and his bench antics haven't changed.
NJAC scores that are not typos:
Rowan 7, Rutgers-Newark 1
Kean 4, TCNJ 1
Brandeis 1 Tufts 0
Missed the first 5 minutes because of gameday traffic.
For the first 15 minutes I observed Tufts was dominating and Brandeis was having trouble getting out of their own half. Brandeis looked like they finally caught up to the game around the 20 minute mark and evened out the play for the next 10 minutes or so, and late in that stretch Brandeis got the goal they needed. Can't remember if it was a corner or a free kick where Tufts played the ball out but to a Brandeis player who made a pass out wide enabling the Judges to get in a secondary cross that was whipped in nicely for a finishing header. The kid made a good play to get the cross off. Looked like Greenwood might have gotten a hand on it but a clean goal nonetheless.
The rest of the game from that point was really about Tufts pressuring and trying to get the equalizer while Brandeis mainly defended and defended well. Brandeis had virtually no offense at all, and it's even more obvious to me how much they miss Soboff and Savonen. Ocel and Picard are good in the midfield and can be offensive but there is no one on the other end for them to work off of. Bradley has good speed and will probably get some good chances against lesser teams, but he's not a super-skilled or dynamic target man at this point. Lanahan was very solid and a presence in the back, but D3 soccer DPOY is a little generous. Didn't see that. Lynch is superb. He makes all of the little plays -- tackles, winning headers, and a calm header back to his own GK inside the box around the 2 minute mark to ease the pressure during what was maybe Tuft's last sequence to have a good scoring chance. The Brandeis right back also played very well. Thought there other CB and the GK might be a little shaky. I wouldn't say Brandeis won the midfield battle, but they were disruptive with strong tackling. Tufts controlled possession basically throughout the game but never really had a rhythm. The first goal is always so huge. Brandeis could remain pretty comfortable defending with a lead. Tufts in my opinion is the better team, by a clear margin, but Brandeis is good enough and has enough of a reputation with their own swagger that on a day they are able to beat a top team like Tufts. That said, Tufts' midfield did not look like the best midfield in the country. Kayne was great and better with more impact as the game wore on. He had trouble getting the ball enough maybe because the play was choppy and Brandeis was so disruptive, but he is a real talent. His ball to Majumber was a perfect ball. Could not tell if he was offsides from my vantage point but the call was made without hesitation and I didn't see much complaining out of Tufts (and they did have an assistant coach who yelled and screamed and worked the refs for the whole game). Connor Brown had his moments and he made a play into the box that was a classic play for a goal or to draw a PK. Brandeis did well to avoid fouling him. And actually if Kayne had let the ball go through on his bicycle kick play Brown might have had an open net to shoot on. The other Tufts midfielders for my money were mostly invisible and in fact the subs looked just as good or better. Tufts is much deeper with little drop-off in quality. The other two Tufts notables were Patel and Mujumber. Tufts' best chances other than the couple noted above were Patel's in-swinging corner kicks. He looked he might eventually put one in on his own. He is a nice looking player and I wonder what he might do up top. Majumber obviously is very good and a great target man. He is bigger and more physical than I thought and actually one of the chippier players for Tufts. As an aside, Brandeis deserved more yellows than Tufts because of the sustained defending and need to disrupt sequences that looked dangerous, but it shouldn't have been 5-0. Tufts got away with a couple of nasty plays themselves. Majumber, though, really never had any clean chances, and I thought it was odd that he was playing as a lone striker. Given Tufts superiority with possession and the amount of time in the Brandeis half I thought they might have played with two up top.
RE: the Tufts CBs. This game didn't tell us much because they weren't tested by quality strikers. Sullivan is HUGE and seems to relish the enforcer role for Tufts.
Brandeis' bug-a-boo is going to be difficulty scoring. They've won 5 or 6 games in a row 1-0, against both weak and strong competition. Eventually that will catch up to them. But they are experienced, used to winning, and I was impressed that their celebration at the end of the game was very muted. They certainly didn't act like they had pulled off a huge upset.
Tufts will be fine. I was very impressed seeing them for the first time in person. They are athletic all over the field and very skilled, although, like I said, I wasn't blown away by their midfield in general.
Very enjoyable college soccer game.
Great recap NCAC. Agree that Tufts is the superior side, but Brandeis was good value for their win. They certainly threw everything at Brandeis but didn't create any clear cut chances aside from the Majumder one that was offsides. Was surprised by how quiet he was kept. Lanahan is and was a presence but Lynch was MotM for me.
There's certainly a difference between being fast and being a dynamic player, and I think Bradley is the former. The Judges really need to sort things out up front, particularly who plays CF. Still think Kayne and Majumder are excellent players and could give Amherst a handful next weekend.
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 26, 2015, 06:39:27 PM
Brandeis 1 Tufts 0
Missed the first 5 minutes because of gameday traffic.
For the first 15 minutes I observed Tufts was dominating and Brandeis was having trouble getting out of their own half. Brandeis looked like they finally caught up to the game around the 20 minute mark and evened out the play for the next 10 minutes or so, and late in that stretch Brandeis got the goal they needed. Can't remember if it was a corner or a free kick where Tufts played the ball out but to a Brandeis player who made a pass out wide enabling the Judges to get in a secondary cross that was whipped in nicely for a finishing header. The kid made a good play to get the cross off. Looked like Greenwood might have gotten a hand on it but a clean goal nonetheless.
The rest of the game from that point was really about Tufts pressuring and trying to get the equalizer while Brandeis mainly defended and defended well. Brandeis had virtually no offense at all, and it's even more obvious to me how much they miss Soboff and Savonen. Ocel and Picard are good in the midfield and can be offensive but there is no one on the other end for them to work off of. Bradley has good speed and will probably get some good chances against lesser teams, but he's not a super-skilled or dynamic target man at this point. Lanahan was very solid and a presence in the back, but D3 soccer DPOY is a little generous. Didn't see that. Lynch is superb. He makes all of the little plays -- tackles, winning headers, and a calm header back to his own GK inside the box around the 2 minute mark to ease the pressure during what was maybe Tuft's last sequence to have a good scoring chance. The Brandeis right back also played very well. Thought there other CB and the GK might be a little shaky. I wouldn't say Brandeis won the midfield battle, but they were disruptive with strong tackling. Tufts controlled possession basically throughout the game but never really had a rhythm. The first goal is always so huge. Brandeis could remain pretty comfortable defending with a lead. Tufts in my opinion is the better team, by a clear margin, but Brandeis is good enough and has enough of a reputation with their own swagger that on a day they are able to beat a top team like Tufts. That said, Tufts' midfield did not look like the best midfield in the country. Kayne was great and better with more impact as the game wore on. He had trouble getting the ball enough maybe because the play was choppy and Brandeis was so disruptive, but he is a real talent. His ball to Majumber was a perfect ball. Could not tell if he was offsides from my vantage point but the call was made without hesitation and I didn't see much complaining out of Tufts (and they did have an assistant coach who yelled and screamed and worked the refs for the whole game). Connor Brown had his moments and he made a play into the box that was a classic play for a goal or to draw a PK. Brandeis did well to avoid fouling him. And actually if Kayne had let the ball go through on his bicycle kick play Brown might have had an open net to shoot on. The other Tufts midfielders for my money were mostly invisible and in fact the subs looked just as good or better. Tufts is much deeper with little drop-off in quality. The other two Tufts notables were Patel and Mujumber. Tufts' best chances other than the couple noted above were Patel's in-swinging corner kicks. He looked he might eventually put one in on his own. He is a nice looking player and I wonder what he might do up top. Majumber obviously is very good and a great target man. He is bigger and more physical than I thought and actually one of the chippier players for Tufts. As an aside, Brandeis deserved more yellows than Tufts because of the sustained defending and need to disrupt sequences that looked dangerous, but it shouldn't have been 5-0. Tufts got away with a couple of nasty plays themselves. Majumber, though, really never had any clean chances, and I thought it was odd that he was playing as a lone striker. Given Tufts superiority with possession and the amount of time in the Brandeis half I thought they might have played with two up top.
RE: the Tufts CBs. This game didn't tell us much because they weren't tested by quality strikers. Sullivan is HUGE and seems to relish the enforcer role for Tufts.
Brandeis' bug-a-boo is going to be difficulty scoring. They've won 5 or 6 games in a row 1-0, against both weak and strong competition. Eventually that will catch up to them. But they are experienced, used to winning, and I was impressed that their celebration at the end of the game was very muted. They certainly didn't act like they had pulled off a huge upset.
Tufts will be fine. I was very impressed seeing them for the first time in person. They are athletic all over the field and very skilled, although, like I said, I wasn't blown away by their midfield in general.
Very enjoyable college soccer game.
I agree excellent analysis. I won't take anything against the Judges. I think they deserved the win. I do see them having some trouble getting far in the NCAA tourney. I don't see any scorers----but their header goal was sweet. I also couldn't tell if Majumder was offsides. It was a perfect pass hitting him in stride. I think the Tufts midfield will be fine. I think they "took one dribble too much" today and didn't pass as much as they usually do. Kayne's bicycle kick missed by a few inches. If it goes in, it could rival his GIANT SLAYER goal against Messiah last year. I do agree Tufts is the better team and maybe this loss pumps them up. I certainly wouldn't want to be #1 ranked all through the year... That, with being the current NCAA champs would be too much long term pressure. They will have to play their best against the Lord Jeffs, especially since the game is in Amherst. While Kayne and Brown haven't been scoring as much as last year, Brown is dangerous and Kayne "moves" the whole team on the field. Looking forward to seeing Amherst's top talent against Tufts top talent. Tufts has Wesleyan first and must not look ahead however.
Quote from: Wisco21 on September 26, 2015, 01:00:55 PM
Was at the North Park-UWO match last night. Very entertaining footy, beautiful weather, great atmosphere from the NP hooligans, best possible way I could've spent my Friday evening. First half Oshkosh came out like gangbusters and hit North Park right in the mouth. They high pressed, moved the ball quick, and found space in behind the Viking's defense. North Park had some stretches towards the final minutes of the first 45 but you could tell they definitely weren't expecting such energy from UWO. The Titans scored off of their high pressing, a shot was coughed up by the keeper and stuffed in the net. UWO kept a good job of keeping Pedram Tahmi-Masoleh quiet.
Halftime 1-0 UWO.
Second half, both teams matched each others intensity at first, NP started gaining more and more possession as the match went on. It got increasingly chippy. Oshkosh had the counter going and drew a penalty in the 80th and converted. However in the 85th a mistake by the Titan's keeper let North Park back into the match at 2-1. UWO eventually held on for the W.
I predict that both of these squads will be forces to reckoned with during the second half of the season.
This is a pretty accurate description of the match. NPU was simply not ready for this match at the start. I think that the schedule for the Vikings has ended up being a little lighter than usual, with usually solid opponents such as Aurora and Dominican being quite a bit down from their traditional levels of play. UWO just plain blitzed NPU during the first half, but some of that was lackluster effort on the part of the Vikings, especially in the corners. On several occasions NPU defenders simply gave up on open-field balls heading into the corner that the Titans chased down and kept active. Midfield was a mess in the first half for North Park as well, as the Vikings are really feeling the absence of their injured two-time All-CCIW center mid Diego Lashlee (whom they hope to have back early in the CCIW portion of the season). As Wisco21 noted, UWO really did a nice job of blanketing NPU star Pedram Tahmi-Masoleh, who is one of D3's premier offensive threats.
NPU really picked up the pace in the last thirty minutes of the match, with Tahmi-Masoleh opportunistically putting home a mishandle by the UWO keeper in the 85th minute, five minutes after the Titans had gone up 2-0 on the penalty kick. The final three minutes were very hairy, with NPU's Kebba Sanyang going high on an unopposed 20-yarder and the UWO keeper coming out of the net to make a great sliding grab of a through ball a heartbeat before an unopposed Tahmi-Masoleh got there. The match ended with a mad scramble in front of the Titans net after a free kick, followed by a corner kick that the Vikings couldn't get off effectively as the horn sounded. Great energy from the crowd. Exciting match, and, as Wisco21 said, both sides look like they can make some noise down the road. Despite the loss, I think that this contest was what NPU needed in order to kick it up a notch as the Vikes head into CCIW play -- especially with UW-Whitewater looming next Thursday as the Park's final non-con opponent prior to the start of CCIW play.
Major win for WPI over Wheaton (MA).
Denison cannot buy a single call on their home field. Getting manhandled but somehow up 1-0 at the half.
Stockton 1, MSU 0. Thought the game started at 7, but I guess it was moved up. Live Stats shows game over.
Ehhh maybe it's just half time in Montclair.... Computer error
Impressive win for Gettysburg away at Muhlenberg.
Schaefer for OWU with a phenomenal goal from a difficult angle 20+ yards out. Denison did manage to hold on to a draw. OWU had the upper hand after tying up the game although both teams had chances. OWU started playing long ball which got Schaefer his shot, and the Battling Bishops moved players all over the field into different positions the whole game. Defenders starting up top or in the midfield, then moving back, switching sides, going from up top to the back. Not sure what is going on with all that but at a minimum may create some confusion for the opposition.
Messiah handles Misericordia 4-1 on what looks like a fairly lopsided box score -- 21 to 8 on shots -- 7 to 3 SOG's
Quote from: blooter442 on September 26, 2015, 07:08:08 PM
Great recap NCAC. Agree that Tufts is the superior side, but Brandeis was good value for their win. They certainly threw everything at Brandeis but didn't create any clear cut chances aside from the Majumder one that was offsides. Was surprised by how quiet he was kept. Lanahan is and was a presence but Lynch was MotM for me.
There's certainly a difference between being fast and being a dynamic player, and I think Bradley is the former. The Judges really need to sort things out up front, particularly who plays CF. Still think Kayne and Majumder are excellent players and could give Amherst a handful next weekend.
UGLY SOCCER game. Very little soccer played, a lot of LONG BALL.
Both teams CAN play, but maybe it was the choppy grass field. Would have liked to see these teams try to PLAY on a turf field.
Not much between these sides. Majunder the best on the field. Brandeis missing Jastremski, Miskin and Hacunda. Makes their win more impressive.
The NCAC Comprehensive Review
Housekeeping Issues
Well, not sure there is any way for Kenyon to avoid the #1 ranking this week. F&M is 9-0 and has been steady but not spectacular so hard to see an argument for the Diplomats leapfrogging the Lords. Amherst is a strong candidate but I doubt a double OT win over Williams in the last 30 seconds will be enough to jump the Lord Jeffs into the top spot, although I wouldn't be surprised to see Amherst there in another week or two. Then there is Whitworth, who along with F&M, as I said previously, has a very good chance to run the table. RPI is 8-0 and right in the mix as well. Calvin is another team with a great chance to remain undefeated, but the Knights still have that opening day draw to Endicott on their balance sheet. I mentioned to my wife that Kenyon likely was going to #1 this coming week, and in between some mumbling I tuned out about Taylor Swift and Aerosmith her only comment was "That won't last, when do they play OWU?"
There are only 6 unblemished teams left....Kenyon, F&M, Whitworth, Amherst, RPI and UMass-Boston (rarified air indeed for the Beacons). Among the other 9 unbeaten teams with one or more draws the pick of the litter would appear to be Christopher Newport, Calvin, Gettysburg (one of the year's real surprises), and maybe Eastern. There are of course a bunch of 1 loss teams like Tufts and Brandeis, and also Montclair, Rutgers-Camden, Rowan, Carnegie Mellon very much in the mix, and some multiple blemished teams like Oneonta, SLU, Loras, Wheaton (ILL) and OWU who we all know will be heard from again and/or even favored as we head into tourney time.
From here on out until we get to Selection Sunday (or Monday or whatever it is), we will be in the thick of conference play. For some, like in the NESCAC, NJAC, NCAC, UAA, SUNYAC, Centennial, Liberty, etc, this will be like entering a cauldron of fire. For others, presumably like Calvin, a Dominican, Wheaton (Ill) except for North Park, and maybe Loras, heading into conference play brings a safe haven. Of course some of these leagues will be one bid conferences, and so even the relatively weaker conferences may have one or two contests that will decide the whole ball of wax. Then the are conferences like the ODAC (Roanoke, Lynchburg, Virginia Wesleyan, W&L, etc) and MIAC (St Olaf, Macalester, St Johns, and usual power GAC already at 0-2 in the conference) that are just too difficult to figure out, where every team has at least multiple losses and you can find a team that is 4-5 but 3-0 in conference.
Now let's take a ride around the horn....
New England
Tufts @Amherst looms for next Saturday, a game that may go a long way towards deciding the regular season winner and top seed for the NESCAC tournament. BEFORE that, both superpowers face trap games ON THE ROAD. Tufts' is more important, taking on suddenly offense happy Wesleyan (and Cowie-Haskie who responded to Mr.Right's all points bulletin with a hat trick vs Bates). Amherst heads to WPI, a squad coming off a key win over Wheaton (MA) and very much needing an even bigger signature win if the Engineers end up needing an at-large bid. WPI is 8-1-1 but the draw at MCLA is a real downer.
There is a real logjam in the NESCAC beyond Amherst and Tufts. Middlebury, Wesleyan, Bowdoin, Williams, and maybe Conn College are going to tussle right down to the wire for perhaps two more NCAA berths. Williams really cannot afford more than 1 or 2 missteps from here, and in addition to the NESCAC gauntlet they have RPI, Babson, and tricky Endicott. The focus will be on Tufts @Amherst next weekend, but Conn @Williams is HUGE. Middlebury seems to be gaining some favor, and they should pick up a couple of wins before a 10/10 mega-clash @Tufts. The waters are still just too murky to guess how 3 through 6 are going to turn out.
The NEWMAC is looking like a one or at most two bid league at the moment. MIT very quietly is 6-1 and coming off a big win over Babson. They should get a couple more wins before going on the road for Brandeis and Wheaton (MA). Babson has been a disappointment, but the Beavers, along with Wheaton, WPI, MIT and maybe even 7-1 Springfield could get hot and run through the NEWMAC tournament. Babson could do themselves a nice favor by knocking off high-flying RPI today at home.
Elsewhere, Curry dropped their first game to Nichols, and Wentworth has lost 3 straight. Endicott is a surprising 6-1-1 with games at Curry (10/10) and home for Williams (10/13) approaching. Gordon is right back in the mix and should be home free for more wins until heading to Tufts on 10/13. ECSU should pad the resume in the next two, but then comes Conn College and the in-conference blockbuster with unblemished UMass-Boston. The Beacons should remain unblemished for two more heading into @Babson and home to ECSU. The UMass-Boston season is becoming one of the narratives of the year, and D3Soccer might do well to take on an inside-the program exclusive as I'm sure there are some great individual stories (and Mr.Right also would be great for this). I thought seeing the Beacons going on a PAC NW trip was about as likely as catching Whitey Bulger. Brilliant move by Coach Beverlin, and I'm sure great for team-building, and he must be considered an early candidate for NCOY.
Somehow I forgot Brandeis. The Judges fresh off the big Tufts win also have a mid-week difficult road game at Wheaton (MA) before hosting Carnegie Mellon next weekend. They should get a boost if a couple of injured players return, and they may host a weekend, but I have trouble seeing them win four games in a row in the NCAA tournament unless the discover some offensive firepower. That said, the Judges are battle-tested and will be a tough out.
Other regions to come....
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 27, 2015, 12:17:28 PM
The NCAC Comprehensive Review
Housekeeping Issues
Well, not sure there is any way for Kenyon to avoid the #1 ranking this week. F&M is 9-0 and has been steady but not spectacular so hard to see an argument for the Diplomats leapfrogging the Lords. Amherst is a strong candidate but I doubt a double OT win over Williams in the last 30 seconds will be enough to jump the Lord Jeffs into the top spot but I wouldn't be surprised to see Amherst there in another week or two. Then there is Whitworth, who along with F&M, as I said previously, has a very good chance to run the table. RPI is 8-0 and right in the mix as well. Calvin is another team with a great chance to remain undefeated, but the Knights still have that opening day draw to Endicott on their balance sheet. I mentioned to my wife that Kenyon likely was going to #1 this coming week, and in between some mumbling I tuned out about Taylor Swift and Aerosmith her only comment was "That won't last, when do they play OWU?"
There are only 6 unblemished teams left....Kenyon, F&M, Whitworth, Amherst, RPI and UMass-Boston (rarified air indeed for the Beacons). Among the other 9 unbeaten teams with one or more draws the pick of the litter would appear to be Christopher Newport, Calvin, Gettysburg (one of the year's real surprises), and maybe Eastern. There are of course a bunch of 1 loss teams like Tufts and Brandeis, and also Montclair, Rutgers-Camden, Rowan, Carnegie Mellon very much in the mix, and some multiple blemished teams like Oneonta, SLU, Loras, Wheaton (ILL) and OWU who we all know will be heard from again and/or even favored as we head into tourney time.
From here on out until we get to Selection Sunday (or Monday or whatever it is), we will be in the thick of conference play. For some, like in the NESCAC, NJAC, NCAC, UAA, SUNYAC, Centennial, Liberty, etc, this will be like entering a cauldron of fire. For others, presumably like Calvin, a Dominican, Wheaton (Ill) except for North Park, and maybe Loras, heading into conference play brings a safe haven. Of course some of these leagues will be one bid conferences, and so even the relatively weaker conferences may have one or two contests that will decide the whole ball of wax. Then the are conferences like the ODAC (Roanoke, Lynchburg, Virginia Wesleyan, W&L, etc) and MIAC (St Olaf, Macalester, St Johns, and usual power GAC already at 0-2 in the conference) that are just too difficult to figure out, where every team has at least multiple losses and you can find a team that is 4-5 but 3-0 in conference.
Now let's take a ride around the horn....
New England
Tufts @Amherst looms for next Saturday, a game that may go a long way towards deciding the regular season winner and top seed for the NESCAC tournament. BEFORE that, both superpowers face trap games ON THE ROAD. Tufts' is more important, taking on suddenly offense happy Wesleyan (and Cowie-Haskie who responded to Mr.Right's all points bulletin with a hat trick vs Bates). Amherst heads to WPI, a squad coming off a key win over Wheaton (MA) and very much needing an even bigger signature win if the Engineers end up needing an at-large bid. WPI is 8-1-1 but the draw at MCLA is a real downer.
There is a real logjam in the NESCAC beyond Amherst and Tufts. Middlebury, Wesleyan, Bowdoin, Williams, and maybe Conn College are going to tussle right down to the wire for perhaps two more NCAA berths. Williams really cannot afford more than 1 or 2 missteps from here, and in addition to the NESCAC gauntlet they have RPI, Babson, and tricky Endicott. The focus will be on Tufts @Amherst next weekend, but Conn @Williams is HUGE. Middlebury seems to be gaining some favor, and they should pick up a couple of wins before a 10/10 mega-clash @Tufts. The waters are still just too murky to guess how 3 through 6 are going to turn out.
The NEWMAC is looking like a one or at most two bid league at the moment. MIT very quietly is 6-1 and coming off a big win over Babson. They should get a couple more wins before going on the road for Brandeis and Wheaton (MA). Babson has been a disappointment, but the Beavers, along with Wheaton, WPI, MIT and maybe even 7-1 Springfield could get hot and run through the NEWMAC tournament. Babson could do themselves a nice favor by knocking off high-flying RPI today at home.
Elsewhere, Curry dropped their first game to Nichols, and Wentworth has lost 3 straight. Endicott is a surprising 6-1-1 with games at Curry (10/10) and home for Williams (10/13) approaching. Gordon is right back in the mix and should be home free for more wins until heading to Tufts on 10/13. ECSU should pad the resume in the next two, but then comes Conn College and the in-conference blockbuster with unblemished UMass-Boston. The Beacons should remain unblemished for two more heading into @Babson and home to ECSU. The UMass-Boston season is becoming one of the narratives of the year, and D3Soccer might do well to take on an inside-the program exclusive as I'm sure there are some great individual stories (and Mr.Right also would be great for this).
Other regions to come....
NCAC,
Nice job on this review!!+k
East
The SUNYAC is a mess! Looks like Oneonta is going to emerge after early out-of-conference stumbles, but there is a long way to go. Plattsburgh followed up the SLU loss with a draw to 6-2-1 Potsdam. Cortland is in deep trouble with an 0-2 start in-conference. Brockport, Geneseo and Buffalo State are hanging on for dear life.
SLU and RPI look good in the Liberty and both should get bids as long as one of them wins their tournament. Skidmore at 5-2 and Hobart at 5-1-1 are challengers. Vassar looks like a longshot. Rochester looks to be just about where we always expect them....4-2-2, just on the right side of mediocre and may again ride something like a 4-2-1 or 3-3-1 UAA record to yet another NCAA bid. Stevens is 5-1-2 but two draws against Elmira and Houghton hurt, although winning the conference will provide them an out. And then there is Keuka at 6-0-1.
Expect Oneonta, RPI, SLU and maybe Plattsburgh and Rochester to be the cream that emerges at the top in the East.
Mid-Atlantic
Lycoming earned an important 0-0 draw @Rochester last night. They should rack up wins heading into a home tilt with Messiah on 10/14. I think they'll have a shot at an at-large bid if Messiah takes the tourney crown as expected (ordained?).
At least until Messiah gets its act fully together, F&M appears to be the class of the region. They should rather easily get four more wins before a stretch of @Hopkins, @Haverford, and @Gettysburg. That's a real gauntlet and may tell us if F&M is a serious national title contender. Gettysburg must be for real. I expected a loss by now. They have Hopkins and Haverford next. Haverford at 5-3 is a good side that needs some key results to go their way, like @Gettysburg (10/3) and @Rutgers-Camden (10/7). The Camden game will be must-see TV, except Camden doesn't have video as Camden looks for payback after last year's 7-3 loss that maybe kept them out of the tournament. Dickinson is 5-2-1 but a draw with Ursinus hurts as tougher foes await. Hopkins is on the edge at 5-3-1 with away games at Gettysburg and Dickinson next. E'town hosts Messiah this week and a win would elevate the Bluejays but I'm not expecting that.
Eastern, at 8-0-1 and Drew at 7-1-1 (but coming off a heavy loss to TNCJ) are the unknowns, at least for this correspondent, but they both have to be considered in play at this time. Then there are Cabrini (6-1-2) and King's (7-2) about whom I am clueless.
When all is said and done, I think we're looking at F&M, Messiah, Gettysburg (if they can stay on course), Eastern, maybe Lycoming, and probably one more Centennial squad in the Mid-Atlantic.
South Atlantic
I see Christopher Newport running the table with a strong chance of hosting two weekends. It's in their hands.
The NJAC is going to an all-out war. Rowan sent a strong signal that the Messiah wasn't a fluke, hammering a staggering but still in contention Rutgers-Newark side. Montclair and Rutgers-Camden are going to be tough to knock off the perch, but Rowan is viable and stealthy Kean is 9-1. TCNJ is 6-2-2 but already 0-2 in-conference.
I'm not a big buyer of Salisbury but the Seagulls will have their chance @CNU on 10/21.
Elsewhere, Birm-Southern sullied their great start with a 3-1 defeat at the hands of Millsaps. UAA member Emory is at Millsaps today, and at 4-3-1 and with the UAA about to shift into high gear the Eagles cannot afford a loss here. Millsaps by the way stands at 6-1. The Oglethorpe Petrels are 6-2-1 with a draw vs Emory and narrow 1-goal losses to Denison and Wheaton (Ill) on their resume. As noted above, the ODAC is too much of a hornet's nest to even attempt an assessment.
Great Lakes
This is an interesting year in the Great Lakes, with UAA squads Carnegie Mellon (mostly) and Case Western looking good, Thomas More proving to be a thorn in everyone's sides, and Kenyon, Denison, and DePauw starting strong and with OWU still around to put the others in their place.
I am amazed that, even if overrated, Kenyon is in any position to be ranked #1 in the country. The Lords lost arguably the best back line in D3, and they are integrating a lot of fresh faces. Will be interesting to see how the newcomers like Carmona react to the increased intensity of high stakes, rivalry-oriented conference showdowns. This week is a big one for Kenyon...a likely #1 ranking followed by the best Case Western team in years and then DePauw back-to-back. That said, the Lords are a remarkable 26-2-2 over their last 30 games, with the only losses being the away trap game at Wabash and the Sweet 16 disaster to OWU. If Kenyon manages to stay in the top 5 range and can make a deep run Brown should be in the conversation for NCOY. On the downside, Barnes had to be helped off the field at Centre and he hasn't played since (just a week), and I have no knowledge on how long he will be out. Speaking of NCOY's, Martin at OWU appears to be earning his money, adjusting game by game and even multiple times within games as OWU apparently awaits the return of a few injured players. The Denison game last night, ending in a draw, looked like a U10 game where the coach says "OK, you guys play offense for 15 minutes and then go to defense for 15 minutes and then do all of that again in the 2nd half." A win would have been a major confidence boost for Denison, but they'll live with the draw and be glad they didn't end up tagged with a loss. DePauw, after beating Loras and then stumbling at home to Rose Hulman in OT, managed to beat Oberlin. Two years ago it was an Oberlin win @DePauw that ended up being the thin difference between Oberlin getting a third NCAC bid and DePauw missing out. The Tigers will have another huge opportunity next Saturday @Kenyon, and DePauw has the athleticism and overall talent to play with Kenyon straight up. The Wabash soft schedule came to roost yesterday as they were saddled with a very soft home draw against Allegheny program that really seems to have slipped the past couple of years.
Elsewhere, Thomas More is the big story. They should have another sterling record at season's end. The OAC is looking a little weak, and a 7-3 Ohio Northern team would appear to be the frontrunner with a big home game with 5-2-1 John Carroll on 10/3. Penn State-Behrend knocked PS-Altoona from the unbeaten ranks and Rose Hulman is hanging around with impressive road results against Wheaton (Ill) and DePauw.
Carnegie Mellon and Case are going to be heard from all season in the Great Lakes but their fortunes ultimately will be determined by how they survive the UAA multi-city storm.
Central
The top teams in the Central appear to be, in no particular order, Calvin, Chicago, Wheaton (Ill), Wash U, and maybe North Park. One or more of those could end up on the outside looking in. As noted I expect Calvin to run the table. Wheaton, after starting slow, should be fine. They should rack up a bunch of wins, with the remaining tougher games UW-Oshkosh away on 10/7 and North Park in the last game of the regular season. Chicago, now 7-2, and Wash U at 5-1-2 will have credible cases for bids if they can go 3-3-1 or better in the UAA....easier said than done. The disappointment in this region has to be Kalamazoo, a squad that garnered a lot support when they were snubbed last year. KZoo has one good chance to get back in the picture, but it won't be easy...away @Calvin next Saturday. Alma is 6-2 but already has a loss to Calvin on board. Dominican and Milwaukee Engineering should battle for their conference crown, and they face off on 10/10. Milliken at 7-1 hopes to challenge Wheaton and North Park, and Marian currently at 7-1-1 plans to provide resistance to Dominican and MSOE. Westminster (MO) should win their conference with relative ease, and they have an in-state showdown with Wash U away on 10/7.
North
The MIAC is struggling. St Olaf currently is in the conference driver's seat with a 4-0 conference start while being a mediocre 4-4 overall. Gustavus Adolphus is down, already at 0-2 in-conference. Macalester is still unbeaten but with an unwhelming 4-0-4 ledger. St. Johns may be the surprise in the MIAC, standing at 6-1-2 and 2-1 in-conference. St Olaf @Macalester Saturday should be a good one. Along St. Johns, St. Thomas is a darkhorse, sporting a 6-2 (2-1 conference)
The UW affiliates -- Whitewater and Oshkosh -- so far have been the outperformers and both should have strong shots at NCAA bids. The otherwise tepid performance by teams in the North leaves Loras as probably the clear top pick. While perhaps not as comprehensively dominant as in past years, the Duhawks will prove good enough to make a run to the Final Four. Matchups might determine whether they are just a Sweet 16 type team or a win or two better than that. Wartburg and Luther will need to go on a streak of wins to shove themselves into the bids picture. Luther's next four are @Macalester, @Loras, @UW-Osh, and Wartburg.
In the MWC, the Knox Prairie Fire (really just wanted to say "Prairie Fire") are 6-2-1 but only 1-2 in-conference. Grinnell is 5-4 overall but 3-0 in-conference.
West
Whitworth is the story thus far in the West....unblemished with a real chance to go unbeaten. The Pirates, assuming the NCAA allows three teams to travel that far, could be in a position to host two weekends....a far cry from having to spend almost 5 days getting to and staying in Gambier, OH due to travel demands and a day of canceled games. The Pirates were treated nicely, though, getting premium rooms right on campus at the Kenyon Inn. This is a team to watch. They'll be among a handful of favorites in the NCAA tournament and basically no one will know much about them.
Trinity (TX), just after being ranked #1 in the nation, finds itself in a pickle, and now needing help to pull even with or pass Colorado College. They play again later, but one win over Colorado won't get it done. One wonders if Trinity (TX) will have enough clout to pull out an extra bid in the West from what the region usually gets. Texas-Dallas is lurking as well at 8-1-1.
On the actual West Coast, Occidental sits at 7-0-2. Redlands is 5-2-1. The Lutes of Pacific Lutheran are 6-2 and 3-0 in-conference, and they get a shot at top-dog Whitworth later today. Willamette, a real challenger to Whitworth last year into the final weekend, has fallen and is a dreary 1-6-1.
Sounds like Babson announcer is being heard through the whole PA system. 1-1 with RPI deep in 2nd half.
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 27, 2015, 04:38:40 PM
Sounds like Babson announcer is being heard through the whole PA system. 1-1 with RPI deep in 2nd half.
Hah - glad to hear I wasn't the only person thinking that!
Babson seems to be "hanging around." Completely outplayed in the first half, but they've looked better in the second half and got the equalizer - although RPI has looked more dangerous IMHO.
And now we are down to five unblemished.
Whitworth scored in the first 3 minutes against Pac Lutheran and held on for a 1-0 win. The stats suggest that the game was played pretty evenly. The Lutes will get another crack at Whitworth, on their own pitch, on 10/24.
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 27, 2015, 01:49:42 PM
East
The SUNYAC is a mess! Looks like Oneonta is going to emerge after early out-of-conference stumbles, but there is a long way to go. Plattsburgh followed up the SLU loss with a draw to 6-2-1 Potsdam. Cortland is in deep trouble with an 0-2 start in-conference. Brockport, Geneseo and Buffalo State are hanging on for dear life.
SLU and RPI look good in the Liberty and both should get bids as long as one of them wins their tournament. Skidmore at 5-2 and Hobart at 5-1-1 are challengers. Vassar looks like a longshot. Rochester looks to be just about where we always expect them....4-2-2, just on the right side of mediocre and may again ride something like a 4-2-1 or 3-3-1 UAA record to yet another NCAA bid. Stevens is 5-1-2 but two draws against Elmira and Houghton hurt, although winning the conference will provide them an out. And then there is Keuka at 6-0-1.
Expect Oneonta, RPI, SLU and maybe Plattsburgh and Rochester to be the cream that emerges at the top in the East.
Mid-Atlantic
Lycoming earned an important 0-0 draw @Rochester last night. They should rack up wins heading into a home tilt with Messiah on 10/14. I think they'll have a shot at an at-large bid if Messiah takes the tourney crown as expected (ordained?).
At least until Messiah gets its act fully together, F&M appears to be the class of the region. They should rather easily get four more wins before a stretch of @Hopkins, @Haverford, and @Gettysburg. That's a real gauntlet and may tell us if F&M is a serious national title contender. Gettysburg must be for real. I expected a loss by now. They have Hopkins and Haverford next. Haverford at 5-3 is a good side that needs some key results to go their way, like @Gettysburg (10/3) and @Rutgers-Camden (10/7). The Camden game will be must-see TV, except Camden doesn't have video as Camden looks for payback after last year's 7-3 loss that maybe kept them out of the tournament. Dickinson is 5-2-1 but a draw with Ursinus hurts as tougher foes await. Hopkins is on the edge at 5-3-1 with away games at Gettysburg and Dickinson next. E'town hosts Messiah this week and a win would elevate the Bluejays but I'm not expecting that.
Eastern, at 8-0-1 and Drew at 7-1-1 (but coming off a heavy loss to TNCJ) are the unknowns, at least for this correspondent, but they both have to be considered in play at this time. Then there are Cabrini (6-1-2) and King's (7-2) about whom I am clueless.
When all is said and done, I think we're looking at F&M, Messiah, Gettysburg (if they can stay on course), Eastern, maybe Lycoming, and probably one more Centennial squad in the Mid-Atlantic.
South Atlantic
I see Christopher Newport running the table with a strong chance of hosting two weekends. It's in their hands.
The NJAC is going to an all-out war. Rowan sent a strong signal that the Messiah wasn't a fluke, hammering a staggering but still in contention Rutgers-Newark side. Montclair and Rutgers-Camden are going to be tough to knock off the perch, but Rowan is viable and stealthy Kean is 9-1. TCNJ is 6-2-2 but already 0-2 in-conference.
I'm not a big buyer of Salisbury but the Seagulls will have their chance @CNU on 10/21.
Elsewhere, Birm-Southern sullied their great start with a 3-1 defeat at the hands of Millsaps. UAA member Emory is at Millsaps today, and at 4-3-1 and with the UAA about to shift into high gear the Eagles cannot afford a loss here. Millsaps by the way stands at 6-1. The Oglethorpe Petrels are 6-2-1 with a draw vs Emory and narrow 1-goal losses to Denison and Wheaton (Ill) on their resume. As noted above, the ODAC is too much of a hornet's nest to even attempt an assessment.
Great Lakes
This is an interesting year in the Great Lakes, with UAA squads Carnegie Mellon (mostly) and Case Western looking good, Thomas More proving to be a thorn in everyone's sides, and Kenyon, Denison, and DePauw starting strong and with OWU still around to put the others in their place.
I am amazed that, even if overrated, Kenyon is in any position to be ranked #1 in the country. The Lords lost arguably the best back line in D3, and they are integrating a lot of fresh faces. Will be interesting to see how the newcomers like Carmona react to the increased intensity of high stakes, rivalry-oriented conference showdowns. This week is a big one for Kenyon...a likely #1 ranking followed by the best Case Western team in years and then DePauw back-to-back. That said, the Lords are a remarkable 26-2-2 over their last 30 games, with the only losses being the away trap game at Wabash and the Sweet 16 disaster to OWU. If Kenyon manages to stay in the top 5 range and can make a deep run Brown should be in the conversation for NCOY. On the downside, Barnes had to be helped off the field at Centre and he hasn't played since (just a week), and I have no knowledge on how long he will be out. Speaking of NCOY's, Martin at OWU appears to be earning his money, adjusting game by game and even multiple times within games as OWU apparently awaits the return of a few injured players. The Denison game last night, ending in a draw, looked like a U10 game where the coach says "OK, you guys play offense for 15 minutes and then go to defense for 15 minutes and then do all of that again in the 2nd half." A win would have been a major confidence boost for Denison, but they'll live with the draw and be glad they didn't end up tagged with a loss. DePauw, after beating Loras and then stumbling at home to Rose Hulman in OT, managed to beat Oberlin. Two years ago it was an Oberlin win @DePauw that ended up being the thin difference between Oberlin getting a third NCAC bid and DePauw missing out. The Tigers will have another huge opportunity next Saturday @Kenyon, and DePauw has the athleticism and overall talent to play with Kenyon straight up. The Wabash soft schedule came to roost yesterday as they were saddled with a very soft home draw against Allegheny program that really seems to have slipped the past couple of years.
Elsewhere, Thomas More is the big story. They should have another sterling record at season's end. The OAC is looking a little weak, and a 7-3 Ohio Northern team would appear to be the frontrunner with a big home game with 5-2-1 John Carroll on 10/3. Penn State-Behrend knocked PS-Altoona from the unbeaten ranks and Rose Hulman is hanging around with impressive road results against Wheaton (Ill) and DePauw.
Carnegie Mellon and Case are going to be heard from all season in the Great Lakes but their fortunes ultimately will be determined by how they survive the UAA multi-city storm.
NCAC New England:
Great information!! This is helpful to me as I don't know a lot about some of the other regions that you describe so thank you for that! If you ever need any information on Mid-Atlantic teams let me know and I will try and help. That's the region I am most accustomed to. I think you hit everything spot on for that region.
A couple things I can try and help with. Kings is 7-2 but they have only played as I like to say "cupcakes." The best win they have would probably be Arcadia? Maybe? They haven't played anyone that is a top contender and they lost to a struggling RIT team this year. There other loss is to a decent Alfred team. Both losses were 2-0 shut-outs. Looks like they need to win their league to make NCAA's.
As for Cabrini, they are quite a surprise this year! They tied a good Alvernia team and lost to Camden 1-0 in OT. They also have a lighter schedule than most but they have played a tougher schedule than Kings.
"When all is said and done, I think we're looking at F&M, Messiah, Gettysburg (if they can stay on course), Eastern, maybe Lycoming, and probably one more Centennial squad in the Mid-Atlantic."
For this section did you forget about ETown? I think they have a good shot of winning the Landmark and getting the AQ which would add them to the list. Eastern probably/should win the Freedom. Then you have Lycoming/Messiah (probablly both) coming out of the Commonwealth. F&M out of the Centennial. Then Gettsyburg if they don't get too beat up in conference play and maybe one more team from this region? Possibly Dickinson if they survive conference play but the tie to Ursinus hurts them bad. But to me it looks like the CC will/should only get 2 teams at this moment in time.
From the weekend: Did you watch the Lycoming at UR game or the Messiah vs Misericordia games? I tuned into Lycoming and UR so was hoping for some insight on how Messiah looked? 4-1 seems like a dominating scoreline and I didn't expect anything less in that one after Misericordia got thrashed by Camden 7-1.
Thanks again for your insights on all the regions its a great help when trying to learn about other teams and let me know your thoughts on those other games!
Poll 3... HERO SPORTS
REC SOS HEAT
1 Amherst 6-0 30 92
2 Montclair State 9-1 103 74
3 Tufts 5-1 7 64
4 Loras 5-2-1 13 52
5 Calvin 8-0-1 74 91
6 Kenyon 8-0 228 91
7 Brandeis 7-1 39 83
8 Franklin & Marshall 9-0 109 89
9 Messiah 5-2-1 35 62
10 SUNY_Oneonta 6-2-1 26 72
11 Middlebury 4-1-1 117 60
12 Wesleyan 4-2 35 71
13 Saint Lawrence 7-1-2 96 71
14 Bowdoin 2-2-2 1 44
15 Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute 8-0-1 89 82
16 Haverford 5-3 4 71
17 Stevens 5-1-2 23 66
18 Chicago 7-2 28 49
19 Christopher Newport 8-0-2 99 75
20 Rutgers-Newark 8-3 49 64
21 Dickinson 5-2-1 62 62
22 Wheaton (IL) 5-2-1 102 67
23 Rutgers-Camden 7-1-1 126 85
24 Trinity(TX) 7-2 157 55
25 North Park 7-2 65 67
Thanks Mid-Atlantic. Should have included E'town but honestly I don't even know the conferences for some of those schools. Also even if E'town earns a bid I don't see them doing much damage but I know little about them other than knowing they have a storied history and from what I read on the site. I know they've been kind of down for a while.
Didn't watch Messiah. I do follow Rochester because I have a daughter that goes to school there, and I am a fan of the school (more so than the soccer program). I usually follow live stats for them but don't like paying for their video, or can you get a non-HD version for free? I also follow UR because I follow the UAA fairly closely and am a Brandeis supporter.
Please, any color you, lastguy, and the Messiah folks can add regarding the Mid and South Atlantic will be much appreciated.
I do think the CC will have a shot at getting 3 teams depending a bit on how the NJAC plays out, but I wouldn't put my money on Dickinson being that third team.
Mid-Atlantic/lastguy, I would love to hear some real details on Eastern and Drew. This first year in the few years I've been following that I've seen them on the radar at all. I'm not even sure exactly where they are location-wise, lol.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on September 28, 2015, 10:21:39 AM
Poll 3... HERO SPORTS
REC SOS HEAT
1 Amherst 6-0 30 92
2 Montclair State 9-1 103 74
3 Tufts 5-1 7 64
4 Loras 5-2-1 13 52
5 Calvin 8-0-1 74 91
6 Kenyon 8-0 228 91
7 Brandeis 7-1 39 83
8 Franklin & Marshall 9-0 109 89
9 Messiah 5-2-1 35 62
10 SUNY_Oneonta 6-2-1 26 72
11 Middlebury 4-1-1 117 60
12 Wesleyan 4-2 35 71
13 Saint Lawrence 7-1-2 96 71
14 Bowdoin 2-2-2 1 44
15 Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute 8-0-1 89 82
16 Haverford 5-3 4 71
17 Stevens 5-1-2 23 66
18 Chicago 7-2 28 49
19 Christopher Newport 8-0-2 99 75
20 Rutgers-Newark 8-3 49 64
21 Dickinson 5-2-1 62 62
22 Wheaton (IL) 5-2-1 102 67
23 Rutgers-Camden 7-1-1 126 85
24 Trinity(TX) 7-2 157 55
25 North Park 7-2 65 67
Hard to find this very credible when Bowdoin has been shut out in 4 of their last 5 games and is arguably not even in the top 14 in New England.
Eastern is directly across the street from Cabrini, and only a few miles away from Haverford and Villanova.
Drew is upstate NJ... They were a phenomenal team back in the early 2000s and were a tough place to play with the crap turf field.
Bowdoin at 14 is high, but keep in mind they only lost 1-0 to Amherst and Williams. These rankings do overvalue strength of conferences, but judging by some of their box scores a draw or win over Tufts would not surprise me.
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 28, 2015, 10:33:40 AM
Thanks Mid-Atlantic. Should have included E'town but honestly I don't even know the conferences for some of those schools. Also even if E'town earns a bid I don't see them doing much damage but I know little about them other than knowing they have a storied history and from what I read on the site. I know they've been kind of down for a while.
Didn't watch Messiah. I do follow Rochester because I have a daughter that goes to school there, and I am a fan of the school (more so than the soccer program). I usually follow live stats for them but don't like paying for their video, or can you get a non-HD version for free? I also follow UR because I follow the UAA fairly closely and am a Brandeis supporter.
Please, any color you, lastguy, and the Messiah folks can add regarding the Mid and South Atlantic will be much appreciated.
I do think the CC will have a shot at getting 3 teams depending a bit on how the NJAC plays out, but I wouldn't put my money on Dickinson being that third team.
Yes I had to pay for the video. Didn't know that until 5 minutes before kick-off! Won't be doing that again for any Rochester games but this one was worth it. Was a great game to watch. Learned a lot about both teams. When good teams play each other it shows what they are made of.
And yes as Lastguy said, Eastern is a Philly school. Have had a good record the past couple seasons and been the preseason favorite for the Freedom conference but choked when conference playoffs role around. The past 2 years they have been the 1 seed and lost in the semis and the finals. This should be the year they finally get over the hump.
As for Drew I really can't say I know a lot about this team. I haven't seen them play yet so I am only going off who they played and records. Won't BS you with stuff I don't know. They are in the Landmark conference with Etown, Scranton, MM, Juniata, Susquehanna, etc...
And I agree with your Etown statement. This is their first year making a splash in a while (nationally) so we will see if they live up to the hype (which is slowly fading).
Rutgers-Camden remaining schedule: Probably one of the toughest remaining schedules out there. Wed vs Rowan will give us a better idea on where Rowan/RUC are.
Getting MSU and Stockton are home is HUGE for Camden this year.
9/30 vs. Rowan * (8-1)
10/3 at Kean * (9-1)
10/7 vs. Haverford (5-3)
10/10 vs. Ramapo * (5-3-2)
10/11 vs. Randolph (4-3-1)
10/14 at TCNJ * (6-2-2)
10/17 vs. MSU * (9-1)
10/21 at Swarthmore (3-6) 5 one goal loss games: F&M, Eastern, Drew, Cabrini, JHU
10/24 at Rutgers-Newark * (8-3)
10/28 vs. Stockton * (7-3)
.700 OWP
MSU Remaining schedule: Rowan away, RUC away, TCNJ away (tough place to play) seem to be the only potential future blemishes.
9/28 vs. Brooklyn (3-3-1) lost to Newark 3-0, Birmingham Southern 2-1 in OT... expect an MSU 4-0 win here.
9/30 vs. William Paterson * (2-4-2)
10/3 at TCNJ * (6-2-2)
10/10 at Rowan * (8-1)
10/14 vs. Kean * (9-1)
10/17 at Rutgers-Camden * (7-1-1)
10/21 at MCLA • (1-4-2)
10/24 at Ramapo * (5-3-2)
10/28 vs. Rutgers-Newark * (8-3)
.667 OWP
Rowan remaining schedule: MSU and Stockton at home are the key to their postseason possibilities. Away at Camden and away at Kean will be tough tests.
9/30 at Rutgers-Camden * (7-1-1)
10/3 at Ramapo * (5-3-2)
10/7 at Swarthmore • (3-6)
10/10 vs. Montclair State * (9-1)
10/14 vs. Stockton * (8-3)
10/17 at William Paterson *(2-4-2)
10/19 at Brooklyn • (3-3-1)
10/21 at Kean * (9-1)
10/24 vs. New Jersey City * (1-8)
10/28 vs. TCNJ * • (6-2-2)
.613 OWP
Stockton remaining schedule: At Rowan and at Rutgers-Camden seem to be the only potential blemishes.
9/30 vs. TCNJ * (6-2-2)
10/3 at William Paterson * (2-4-2)
10/5 vs. Ursinus • (1-4-2)
10/7 vs. New Jersey City * (1-8)
10/10 vs. Rutgers-Newark * (8-3)
10/14 at Rowan * (8-1)
10/17 vs. Farmingdale State • (5-3) Lost to MSU 8-1.
10/24 vs. Kean * (9-1)
10/28 at Rutgers-Camden * (7-1-1)
.623 OWP
Kean remaining schedule: Only Baruch out of conference game left... At MSU, At Stockton, RUC home, RUN home, Rowan home are the potential blemishes.
9/30 at New Jersey City * • 3:00 PM LS
10/3 vs. Rutgers-Camden * • 4:00 PM LS V
10/5 vs. Baruch • 7:30 PM LS V
10/10 at William Paterson * • 6:00 PM LS
10/14 at Montclair State * • 7:00 PM LS
10/17 vs. Rutgers-Newark * • 7:00 PM LS V
10/21 vs. Rowan * • 7:30 PM LS V
10/24 at Stockton * • 2:00 PM LS V
10/28 vs. Ramapo * • 7:30 PM LS V
Rutgers-Newark has Stockton away, Kean away, MSU away. Rutgers-Camden home, Steven Tech home. With 3 blemishes already, they certainly have a chance to turn it around.
The Rochester v Lycoming draw really does neither of the any favors. They both NEEDED a win especially Lycoming. Now to get a Pool C Lycoming must beat Messiah and Oneonta or at least go 1-0-1 against them. 2 losses against them and they will be cooked.
I wouldn't go that far Mr. Right. And Lycoming will probably play Messiah twice. If they go 1-2-1 with those 4 games they will be in good shape. There only loss is to undefeated #14 Eastern in OT. Not the worst loss to have on your record.
The good losses do not matter as much as good WINS, which Lycoming has none right now. York is a good win but not in the committee's eyes. They will not be ranked
If they go 1-1-1 regular season against Messiah, Oneonta, and Rochester with that win being against Messiah then lose to them in playoffs and go 1-2-1 (split w/Messiah) I don't think that hurts them as long as they don't slip up anywhere else. If that happens they would be 16-2-1 entering the conference tournament. 17-2-1 after semis then face Messiah in the finals. If they lose and go 17-3-1 with losses to Eastern, Oneonta, and Messiah, a tie against at Rochester, and a win vs Messiah among others it would be really hard not to put them in. Especially after the schedule changes they made after getting snubbed last year.
Now my real question and possible dilemma is this...what if Eastern doesn't win their conference tournament?!?! They could realistically run the table when they hit conference play, but lets say they slip up once in conference. That would put them at 16-1-1 entering the tournament. Say they make the final at 17-1-1 and lose and finish 17-2-1...do they still get in? Salisbury and Lycoming are the good wins. Tied Alvernia. Say they lose to Kings again or Misericordia. What do you think happens then? And a loop could be if Lycoming wins the Commonwealth and Messiah finishes second...would a banged up Messiah team get in over this Eastern team?
All hypothetical at this point but it makes for an interesting thought! Any opinions?
Now we have the UAA and thanks to Ryan's analysis we have found out that the UAA has garnered on average the most bids every year just ahead of the Nescac. As we all know the Nescac has been much more successful that the UAA in the NCAA's as NYU in 2006 was the last UAA team to make the NCAA Final 4. BTW that NYU side in 2006 was WAAAYYY out of place at the 2006 Final 4. They were a good side but not a Final 4 side AT ALL..
UAA teams as usual will beat each other up and there will be plenty of draws(hello U of Rochester and U Washington).
Teams that have no chance of a Pool C and have underperformed against a rather weak schedule are: NYU and Emory. The other UAA teams cannot stumble against these two sides.
U of Rochester and Washington U have had decent out of conference schedules but maybe 1 or 2 wins for both against GOOD teams. Both teams need to have a stellar UAA record this year to get a Pool C which I do not see happening.
Brandeis, Carnegie Mellon and Case Western all have nice schedules and excellent wins on a great resume. These 3 should all be Pool C locks as long as they do not tank in their UAA battles. The Case v Kenyon game I will be looking forward to catching.
Your UAA bubble team is U of Chicago...They have had a good schedule so far but maybe only 1 or 2 SOLID wins. They must get 4 to 5 wins in the UAA to be the 4th team invited to the NCAA's IMO.
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 28, 2015, 02:16:38 PM
If they go 1-1-1 regular season against Messiah, Oneonta, and Rochester with that win being against Messiah then lose to them in playoffs and go 1-2-1 (split w/Messiah) I don't think that hurts them as long as they don't slip up anywhere else. If that happens they would be 16-2-1 entering the conference tournament. 17-2-1 after semis then face Messiah in the finals. If they lose and go 17-3-1 with losses to Eastern, Oneonta, and Messiah, a tie against at Rochester, and a win vs Messiah among others it would be really hard not to put them in. Especially after the schedule changes they made after getting snubbed last year.
Now my real question and possible dilemma is this...what if Eastern doesn't win their conference tournament?!?! They could realistically run the table when they hit conference play, but lets say they slip up once in conference. That would put them at 16-1-1 entering the tournament. Say they make the final at 17-1-1 and lose and finish 17-2-1...do they still get in? Salisbury and Lycoming are the good wins. Tied Alvernia. Say they lose to Kings again or Misericordia. What do you think happens then? And a loop could be if Lycoming wins the Commonwealth and Messiah finishes second...would a banged up Messiah team get in over this Eastern team?
All hypothetical at this point but it makes for an interesting thought! Any opinions?
IMO the Commonwealth is a 1 BID league because both Lycoming and Messiah will not have enough wins against ranked teams and have an SOS of around .560...The only way it turns into a 2 bid league is if Messiah wins the tournament and Lycoming beats them regular season and beats Oneonta. Tall Order which will not happen. I do not see Messiah getting a Pool C either if Lycoming wins the title as they have a worse SOS than Lycoming and still have NO wins against ranked teams
Makes sense and I understand your observations but I think you are automatically giving away a bid to a CC school that won't get one this year. That league is a mess and it's bound to become messier as conference play is starting/has started. And as someone said before it depends on the NJAC and how other conferences shape up. Its been fun to watch the progression of this season. Not what I anticipated when it started!
And Mr. Right, any thoughts on Tufts going down? It was bound to happen but didn't know if you caught the game. I only got my recap from reading these boards.
Mid Atlantic,
You are assuming the bids are based on regions. Each region is not assured the same amount of bids or more / less bids based on how many teams are in the region. 19 Pool C's do not goet spread out by region. So the East could get 6 Pool C's and the South only 2. So basically you are not matching up Lycoming's resume with say Haverford or Camden, you are matching their resume up with all bubble teams in any region. That is why Lycoming / Messiah resume matched up to a say a UAA side or Nescac side might not match up favorably in SOS and OWP and record v ranked
Tufts was bound to go down this year with their Nescac slate plus Brandeis. I did not think they would lose to Brandeis at home but that loss does not hurt them at all. They just cannot keep losing obviously. That win is a great one for Brandeis and as long as they get 5 wins in the UAA will have an excellent resume and possibly could host all the way to the Final 4 if Amherst slips up which they might.
Brandeis does travel to Wheaton MA on Tuesday. Brandeis has more talent and has had Wheaton's # the past 5 years. Before that, Wheaton dominated the series. Wheaton is coming off a tough loss to WPI which I watched and thought the game deserved to end in a draw. If Wheaton MA has any chance of a Pool C THEY MUST BEAT Brandeis and get to the NEWMAC final. I think Wheaton if they work hard and stay focused and play to the best of their abilities have a shot at an upset on Tuesday in Norton.
If Wheaton can upset Brandeis and if and a big IF WPI could get a result against Amherst, even a draw would help them then the NEWMAC has a shot at 2 Pool C's. If WPI takes care of business in the league and if they could earn a draw v Amherst that might be enough.
Wheaton needs to go clean the rest of the way and MUST beat Brandeis and Babson to get a Pool C. They do not have to many "good" wins. Tall order.
WPI has 1 good win over Wheaton and that is it. The loss to Brandeis does not help. WPI is in the same boat as Lycoming...Great record, Tough losses and need more SOLID wins.
Babson has a great schedule but already have 3 losses. Expect that loss total to rise and they will not have a chance.
MIT and Springfield have great records but Springfield's schedule is HORRIBLE and MIT's is ok but not great
Thanks for the info! Anybody have thoughts on what the top 25 might look like come tomorrow?
Mid-Atlantic, a good example of what Mr.Right is talking about is John Carroll last year. They won and maybe were undefeated in their conference (OAC) and had a great record of 17-4 or something like that. They were regionally ranked #2 in the last published regional rankings (ahead of OWU) and did NOT get a bid because they lost in their conference tourney final to Heidelberg.
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 28, 2015, 03:43:39 PM
Mid-Atlantic, a good example of what Mr.Right is talking about is John Carroll last year. They won and maybe were undefeated in their conference (OAC) and had a great record of 17-4 or something like that. They were regionally ranked #2 in the last published regional rankings (ahead of OWU) and did NOT get a bid because they lost in their conference tourney final to Heidelberg.
RPI another example from 2014. Their resume matched up nice to other bubble teams in other regions but they lost in their conference final and got snubbed badly IMO. They had to be one of the First 4 out and I believe Brockport St which is also in the East was a Last 4 In but both Brockport St and RPI resumes were matched up with other bubble teams across the country. However, I am guessing but I bet in the world of D3 soccer sometimes it is a geographical faction that possible could factor into these bubble teams chances. If that is the case it would be a shame. I really only think the geographical thing factors into hosting rights.
Saturday, October 3rd (this coming Saturday for the date-challenged like me) is a monster day in D3 soccer. High stakes, blockbuster match-ups across the board. Which makes some of these in-week games over the next couple of days intriguing because a number of notables could get caught looking ahead.
Let's start with UW-Whitewater. I had to double-check to make sure I had this right. UW-W is playing AWAY at Loras and North Park on back-to-back nights.
Tomorrow
UW-W @Loras
Tufts @Wesleyan
Brandeis @Wheaton (MA)
DePauw @Thomas More
Chicago @Carthage
Trinity (CT) @Conn College
Wabash @Centre
Randolph @Roanoke
Luther @Macalester
Wednesday
Rowan @Rutgers-Camden
Amherst @WPI
UW-W @North Park
Messiah @E'town
Case Western @Kenyon
Hopkins @Gettysburg
Denison @Heidelberg
Kalamazoo @Alma
UMass-Boston @Bridgewater State
Week 3 Poll Projections:
Central: Calvin, Washington (MO), Wheaton, Chicago (Wheaton bumps Chicago after the 1-0 Win)
East: RPI, SLU, Plattsburgh St, Oneonta St.
Great Lakes: Kenyon, Denison, Thomas More, Case Western (TM gets respect, CMU falls out after draw vs Westminster)
Mid-Atlantic: F&M, Eastern, Gettysburg, Etown (no movement here, except Drew gets bumped for their loss to TCNJ; G'burg and Etown move up).
New England: Amherst, Brandeis, Tufts, MA-Boston. (Brandeis moves ahead of Tufts after the W, Amherst slides up).
North: Loras, UWW, CSS, UWO
South: CNU, MSU, Salisbury, Rutgers-Camden (even with Salisbury loss this week, Camden will not jump Salisbury due to H2H). Could make a case for Rowan in 4th slot.
West: Whitworth, UT-Dallas, Colorado, Occidental, Trinity
Top 10
1. Kenyon
2. F&M
3. Amherst
4. Calvin
5. CNU
6. Whitworth
7. Loras
8. RPI
9. MSU
10. Eastern
lastguy, interesting that you have CMU dropping while D3 Soccer still has them at #7 nationally, even after a weak draw.
Nationally, I would have Amherst #3, Whitworth #4, CNU #5, Brandeis #6, Tufts #7, Montclair #8, Calvin #9, RPI #10, and then probably Rut-Camden at #11.
Going to be intriging few days through the Saturday and maybe Sunday games with weather. Wonder is some big games will get postponed.
My top 10
1 Amherst
2 Kenyon
3 F&M
4. Brandeis
5. Loras
6. Whitworth
7. RPI
8. Tufts
9. CNU
10 Calvin
I'd almost consider 1 loss Brandeis over Kenyon and F&M with their early loss coming on the road in Texas @ Trinity. In terms of the Brandeis - Tufts game, who was the better side or team more likely to make a deeper run in the tournament?
CNU and Calvin at 9 and 10 to me is also a stretch, but just going by record I had to put them there. A team like MSU, SLU, Wheaton, UWW, Thomas More or Rutgers-Camden could easily be in those slots.
Massey Ratings top 10 (SOS)
Amherst (15)
Kenyon (156)
RPI (42)
F&M (88)
Tufts (14)
MA Boston (124)
Whitworth (122)
Rowan (20)
Montclair St (134)
St Lawrence (6)
------------------
Brandeis (16)
Somewhat agree with their rankings besides MA Boston and Rowan being so high. I'd swap them out and move Brandeis and Thomas More up.
There were a couple of extensive reviews of Brandeis vs Tufts in this thread and the NESCAC thread. #3 and certainly #1 is too high for Brandeis at this point. Kenyon, F&M, Amherst and Whitworth should all be ahead of the Judges who have won about 6 in a row 1-0, including against weaker sides, in tight games that could have gone the other way, and a couple in double OT.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on September 29, 2015, 10:16:35 AM
I'd almost consider 1 loss Brandeis over Kenyon and F&M with their early loss coming on the road in Texas @ Trinity. In terms of the Brandeis - Tufts game, who was the better side or team more likely to make a deeper run in the tournament?
Even as a Brandeis supporter, I'd say absolutely Tufts is the better squad and will likely go further in the postseason. On the day, the teams were about even: Tufts created more without ever truly threatening, but Brandeis was able to finish and held down the fort defensively. They also edged the midfield battle IMHO, making the Tufts midfield - with the exception of Kayne, who was excellent - look very average, as Pinheiro and Halliday were well below their usual high standards.
I'd say this week Brandeis could move up to No. 6 or No. 5, but no higher. Maybe part of that is I've seen their scoring "woes" firsthand; then again, we all know our own team's flaws better than others.
Agree with blooter. Brandeis is strong enough (and confident enough) to beat anyone as the Judges just demonstrated. But they wouldn't necessarily be favored against top 10 teams and it wouldn't be a surprise for them to lose to good but not great teams like Wheaton, Babson, etc. The difference with Tufts is that they don't have a Majumder (think I finally spelled that right haha) or even a Connor Brown, although maybe one of the injured players like a Jastremski can give them a boost on offense.
My Top 10 Poll:
1. Kenyon
2. F&M
3. Amherst
4. Tufts
5. Brandeis
6. CNU
7. Whitworth
8. Calvin
9. Montclair St.
10. Loras
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 29, 2015, 11:06:16 AM
My Top 10 Poll:
1. Kenyon
2. F&M
3. Amherst
4. Tufts
5. Brandeis
6. CNU
7. Whitworth
8. Calvin
9. Montclair St.
10. Loras
This is just about right. I think many of us are at a loss as to where to put Whitworth, and it seems the default choice is to put them a few spots lower than maybe where they should be. Other than a couple of us who have a taken an interest in the Pirates, partly because of the mystery about them, they really don't seem to have an advocate on the site.
UW-Whitewater ends their 8 games in 14 days with trips to Loras and North Park. Getting a result at either of those two places would probably been seen as success for the Warhawks as they have been pushed to the wire verse lesser opponents in two of their last three games.
Some may ask why a coach might schedule this hellish stretch of games and my thought is that he did not have a choice. UWW does not have a conference and therefore no conference schedule they must play. All of their opponents are already tied up come October with these conference games and would rather focus on those instead of playing a team like Whitewater.
This is a problem that UWW is going to face for the years to come especially now that UW Superior joined the UMAC and UW Oshkosh will no longer have a program.
All in all, if UW Whitewater can go 1-1 in these next two games that should set them up nice for the rest of the season.
National Poll is up:
http://www.nscaa.com/rankings/4482 (http://www.nscaa.com/rankings/4482)
Eastern beats Nationally Ranked Salisbury and moves down 3 spots, while the Gulls move up 2 spots!
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on September 29, 2015, 11:55:17 AM
Eastern beats Nationally Ranked Salisbury and moves down 3 spots, while the Gulls move up 2 spots!
Yes, the stickiness of Salisbury in BOTH polls is interesting. Also odd that Wash U is not even in the RV category in the D3 soccer poll.
Where is Rowan?? They should be ranked at the very least.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on September 29, 2015, 11:55:17 AM
Eastern beats Nationally Ranked Salisbury and moves down 3 spots, while the Gulls move up 2 spots!
Lol wut? That sounds like anti-logic to me. You would think that beating a fellow top-25 team - even if you won't surpass them in the poll - that you'd at the very least move up while they move down?
Welp, Rowan RV.... so the south looks like this at the moment.
1. CNU
2. MSU
3. Salisbury
4. Rutgers-Camden
5. Rowan
At this point, I think the winner of the Rutgers-Camden Rowan game Wednesday should leap Salisbury regardless of how they perform this week...
I like the D3 poll this week very much. Seems very accurate. I still am befuddled on WHY Calvin is ranked so high. THEY HAVE PLAYED NO ONE. They should be RV at the most IMO
In the same breath, Kenyon hasn't really played anyone either; Overachieving CMU and Centre.
at Waynesburg (0-8)
Otterbein (4-3-1)
Heidelberg (2-4-3)
Carnegie Mellon (6-1-1)
Marietta (4-5)
at Centre (4-4-1)
at Muskingum (3-5)
Wittenberg (3-6-2)
Not sure how teams that won or tied dropped or didn't receive votes this week but they did last week? Perfect example mentioned is Eastern. Makes no sense.
Also surprised to see Tufts fall from 1 to 12 in the NSCAA Poll? 12 spots for a loss to a top 5ish team? Harsh!!!
Also strange to see Messiah ranked at 22 in D3soccer poll with Rowan at 25. Salisbury at 20 with Eastern RV.
Thomas More should be getting more love with the D3soccer poll as well; 24 seems harsh. Could easily see Thomas More in the 12th slot, with Calvin at 24th.
Also strange to see Etown receive votes in NSCAA this week but not last week? Would have flip flopped that if anything but I wouldn't have even given them a vote.
Messiah vs Etown tomorrow night at 7pm. Will learn a lot about both teams.
And yes to your TMC statement. Top 20 in my books. And 15 is the right spot for them in the NSCAA poll.
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 29, 2015, 12:33:04 PM
Also strange to see Etown receive votes in NSCAA this week but not last week? Would have flip flopped that if anything but I wouldn't have even given them a vote.
Messiah vs Etown tomorrow night at 7pm. Will learn a lot about both teams.
And yes to your TMC statement. Top 20 in my books. And 15 is the right spot for them in the NSCAA poll.
Etown benefited from the Drew loss to TCNJ...
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on September 29, 2015, 12:29:54 PM
Also strange to see Messiah ranked at 22 in D3soccer poll with Rowan at 25. Salisbury at 20 with Eastern RV.
Thomas More should be getting more love with the D3soccer poll as well; 24 seems harsh. Could easily see Thomas More in the 12th slot, with Calvin at 24th.
I agree...Messiah should not be ranked at all and especially not ahead of Rowan.
Another head scratcher is Washington University (Mo.) being 14th in the NSCAA? Really? Why are they even ranked? There are 2 other UAA schools ranked behind them that are better!!! Crazy.
I don't even think they RV in the D3 Poll?!?!?!?!?!?!
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on September 29, 2015, 12:28:49 PM
In the same breath, Kenyon hasn't really played anyone either; Overachieving CMU and Centre.
at Waynesburg (0-8)
Otterbein (4-3-1)
Heidelberg (2-4-3)
Carnegie Mellon (6-1-1)
Marietta (4-5)
at Centre (4-4-1)
at Muskingum (3-5)
Wittenberg (3-6-2)
Very true, and that ends starting tomorrow, although they do have the advantage of every remaining "brand-name" game being at home except for OWU.
DePauw @TMC starts at 2:30. Should be a good one.
When you have teams make surprisingly or unexpectedly good starts, it's always interesting to see who voters (and fans on boards like these, for that matter) rally around and who they seem to take a wait-and-see attitude. Sometimes an upset of a top team is the catalyst to getting recognition, but sometimes there doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason to it. Speaking of upsets, it's similarly interesting to see how voters (and fans) treat teams that pull off upsets (or nearly pull off upsets) and the teams they upset (or nearly upset). Certainly isn't always consistent.
So we always have plenty of material for discussion when it comes to the rankings. I agree with many who claim that this team or that team seems too high. F&M's 9-0-0 isn't what I'd call impressive. Christopher Newport's undefeated 8-0-2 mark has it's share of question marks even when looking at some of their wins. Whitworth out of the northwest is always something of a mystery because they don't play enough games against teams we are familiar with and who play other teams we know so we can get somewhat of a guage. Calvin, unlike most seasons, did not have any measuring-stick type opponents on the schedule in the first couple weeks, so how do you evaluate them? BUT . . . if not them, than who? To move someone down, you need to move somebody up in their place. Not easy.
The idea that Messiah shouldn't be ranked or other top teams that have stumbled is valid. But we must remember that there's all different ways to look at what the rankings are supposed to be and what they are to represent (best accumulative results to date, best accumulative performance to date, who's playing the best at the moment, etc.). And I can imagine that some voters who may actually have been looking to un-rank a Messiah after their disastrous week when they tied Gettysburg and lost to Rowan, still found it hard to do because they think to themselves on Monday as they are completing their ballot, if Messiah played so-and-so this Wednesday who would I expect to win? Who would I put my money on, if I were a betting man? That is, who do I really think is better and has the better chance/likelihood of winning next time out, all things being equal? And could they answer those questions with 25 or more potential opponents?
In a similar sense to how we can say that the scoreboard says Team B won but can still believe (and with good reason often) that Team A is the better team, I think voters could potentially acknowledge that results to date are better for Team Z, but still feel that Team Y is better. Not saying that is right, but that partially depends on what you think the rankings are trying to be and trying to represent, something that is rarely expressed or discussed and which, if it was, I don't think you'd find much consensus. In the case of Messiah, however, it's not a case of unlucky results losing games 1-0 despite outshooting the opponent by a wide margin; there's plenty of hard evidence to make one doubt Messiah's credentials as a Top 25 team, but I can still imagine some voters unable to say that there's 25 teams they think would be favored over Messiah in a game tomorrow.
Peculiarities with the relative ranking of Salisbury and Eastern after the later beat the former, and likewise with Messiah and Rowan, have already been mentioned. Voters are probably wise to again take a wait-and-see approach to undefeated Wabash, but they didn't have much hesitation thrusting Denison up into the middle of the rankings despite a so-so schedule (the Thomas More victory looking better all the time, though). Has Denison proved anything more than Eastern? than Gettysburg? Maybe. Maybe not. And has Elizabethtown really proved as much as Eastern, Gettysburg or other teams below or just "receiving votes"? I also think about how a couple weeks ago Trinity (Texas) climbed to No. 1 right after needing overtime to edge past Texas-Dallas who matched them statistically anyways. I expected Trinity to hold or slip slightly, but instead they grabbed the top spot that no one seemed ready to claim. However, what is maybe equally interesting is that it didn't seem to garner much attention for Texas-Dallas. The Comets are now 8-1-1 and slowly inching up through the "Receiving Votes" teams. Not saying Texas-Dallas should be ranked (Trinity going out and losing twice in one week doesn't help their case).
Anyway, there are always different ways to look at the same results and how to evaluate each result within the larger context of the season. And this year is crazier than ever for contradictory results that complicate any ranking effort. Most years things start sorting themselves out as the season moves along and more results are in to help us know what were aberrations versus telling signs. And it may largely work out that way again this year, but, then again, maybe not. It could be that every time we think we have a team figured out, they throw up a result or performance that makes us uncertain all over again.
Absolutely agree, FW. The actual and potential dynamics that impact our perceptions are complicated. You're right, I'm not sure I'd pick 5 teams to beat Messiah, much less 25. And, this example perhaps says it best for me....on Saturday, during the game, I was thinking "I'm not sure anyone is going to beat Tufts this year" while I was watching them lose. And if by some chance, as another example, Kenyon is still highly ranked with a great record towards the end of the season when they play a lower or unranked OWU, most posters here will pick OWU because of the infamous psychological advantage.
Seems like besides the 3 Nescac tilts and a handful of other games today, the games on Wednesday will really be impacting some conferences.
After comparing Thomas More and Calvin's resumes.....Thomas More certainly deserves to be in Calvin's spot in the rankings. Wins over OWU, Case Western and Centre are certainly more impressive than anything even on Calvin's schedule.
Watching Wheaton vs. Brandeis and the Wheaton radio announcer in the background is hilarious, speaking in the manner of a hybrid auctioneer/baseball announcer. I'm enjoying it.
The big thing, though, was Wheaton's website led to the NESJ D3 outlook, which says that Tufts is the "first program to win the NCAA title by winning six road games." I don't believe this is true - it appears that Messiah did so in 2008. I know that - assuming they qualify - Messiah rotates year-by-year whether they host or not, but when they won it in 2008 they played at Rochester, CNU, and Greensboro. Am I missing something, or is this just an oft-cited yet incorrect claim?
Blooter, how is the 1st half going? I plan on catching the 2nd half
Pretty uneventful so far, about 50-50 possession with no real chances. Still don't understand why 'Deis persists with playing Bradley upfront - he's quick and he's over 6' so provides some height but he has not been good on any occasion that I've seem him this year aside from Hardin-Simmons.
Update: Brandeis goes 1-0 up in the 32nd minute, Michael Chaput putting home a rebound after his shot hit the post. Incidentally, he scored on Brandeis' last visit to Norton in 2013.
Zach Viera led the ISL his senior season and was getting recruited by 3-4 Nescac's but he did not get into 1 and chose Brandeis over the others. I was not impressed with him his frosh year but I think he has steadily improved and apparently has grabbed the #10
Wheaton needs this game v Brandeis to have any shot at a Pool C...Otherwise the Newmac is a 1 bid league unless WPI can get some sort of a result against Amherst tomorrow
Wheaton-Brandeis so far seems to be a pretty typical Brandeis game where they carry the possession but as usual they've been sloppy in terms of finishing. Most people seem to be of the opinion that this is going to limit their chances of a deep run in the tournament, and while I definitely agree that it's a major issue that needs to be improved, at this point in the season I'd rather have that as a weakness and hope they can turn it around as opposed to a leaky defense. Lynch and Lanahan are both exceptional players and as long as the back line remains healthy they are always going to be very difficult to score on. With the win over Tufts they've put themselves in position to host through to the final four if they can finish strong through the UAA season (easier said than done and I suspect they will ultimately drop a few in the UAA that will prevent them from hosting all the way through). But if they do pull it off and they get to host multiple rounds on their turf come November then in that scenario despite their offensive issues I would expect them to be as tough an out as any in New England come tournament time.
Based on stats, Brandeis is hammering Wheaton. Impressive consolidation of the Tufts win.
DePauw and TMC ends 2-2. TMC tied it with 2 minutes in regulation. TMC scraps to the very end with 2 yellows literally in last minute of 2nd OT.
Kenyon website states this is first time in program history they have garnered a #1 ranking.
http://athletics.kenyon.edu/news/2015/9/29/MSOC_0929152416.aspx
Quote from: blooter442 on September 29, 2015, 04:20:23 PMThe big thing, though, was Wheaton's website led to the NESJ D3 outlook, which says that Tufts is the "first program to win the NCAA title by winning six road games." I don't believe this is true - it appears that Messiah did so in 2008. I know that - assuming they qualify - Messiah rotates year-by-year whether they host or not, but when they won it in 2008 they played at Rochester, CNU, and Greensboro. Am I missing something, or is this just an oft-cited yet incorrect claim?
Officially Messiah did win six games away from home in 2008. Not sure if the Tufts' claim is based on the fact that Messiah won a penalty shootout in the title game that would be considered a tie in every other instance but a national final.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on September 29, 2015, 05:17:14 PM
Officially Messiah did win six games away from home in 2008. Not sure if the Tufts' claim is based on the fact that Messiah won a penalty shootout in the title game that would be considered a tie in every other instance but a national final.
Interesting. I'd count that as winning six games on the road. It's understandable that some add "first team to win six games on the road," particularly because A. they did win six games on the road and B. Tufts were considered huge underdogs going into the national tournament, but it just seems a bit sensationalist considering it's not entirely true.
That said, Tufts did win those six games outright, so that is a unique accomplishment.
Brandeis went 2-0 up before Wheaton pulled one back in the 74th. 'Deis scored a nice team goal to make it two. Wheaton pulled one back on a bouncing ball in the box, nice finish. Currently 2-1 in Norton, where the slow, wet grass pitch has no doubt had an effect.
Wow. Kayne just hit Majumder with another perfect pass into an open net and he missed it (hit post).
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 29, 2015, 05:57:00 PM
Wow. Kayne just hit Majumder with another perfect pass into an open net and he missed it (hit post).
That's soccer... Going to OT. Kayne hit Zimmer earlier and he hit the post. Tufts dominated second half. Boys look tired. Wesleyan hanging in there...
Eastern only beats 0-8-1 Rosemont 2-0, outshooting them 22-5. They travel to Manhattanville for a big conference game this Saturday...
Really impressed with Brandeis dominating (at least stats-wise) away at Wheaton (in a game Wheaton needed a result from badly). Outshot Wheaton 20 to 4. If Brandeis does gain more offensive punch watch out.
This is not last year's Wheaton. They have talent, but they are down this year. Although they are 7-4, their best win is Springfield.
Quote from: Off Pitch on September 29, 2015, 06:56:03 PM
This is not last year's Wheaton. They have talent, but they are down this year. Although they are 7-4, their best win is Springfield.
Understood. It's not exactly last year's Brandeis either. To significantly outplay a still pretty good Wheaton team that really needed the game just a couple of days after an extremely tense, high-energy game at Tufts I find impressive.
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 28, 2015, 07:39:42 PM
Saturday, October 3rd (this coming Saturday for the date-challenged like me) is a monster day in D3 soccer. High stakes, blockbuster match-ups across the board. Which makes some of these in-week games over the next couple of days intriguing because a number of notables could get caught looking ahead.
Let's start with UW-Whitewater. I had to double-check to make sure I had this right. UW-W is playing AWAY at Loras and North Park on back-to-back nights.
Tomorrow
UW-W @Loras
Tufts @Wesleyan
Brandeis @Wheaton (MA)
DePauw @Thomas More
Chicago @Carthage
Trinity (CT) @Conn College
Wabash @Centre
Randolph @Roanoke
Luther @Macalester
Wednesday
Rowan @Rutgers-Camden
Amherst @WPI
UW-W @North Park
Messiah @E'town
Case Western @Kenyon
Hopkins @Gettysburg
Denison @Heidelberg
Kalamazoo @Alma
UMass-Boston @Bridgewater State
You got the days wrong for UWW's back-to-back matches against Loras and North Park. The Warhawks travel to Loras on Wednesday, and to NPU on Thursday.
Centre leading Wabash 4-2 late after Wabash led at half 2-1.
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 29, 2015, 05:57:00 PM
Wow. Kayne just hit Majumder with another perfect pass into an open net and he missed it (hit post).
I thought that was the game.... Great pass thru traffic.... It was a good game with a few chances. Tufts scored but was ruled offsides on a good call. Haskell could have scored. Tufts had more possession, especially in second half... Probably a fair result...
Manhattanville 1, Merchant Marine 0. I think they could knock off Eastern this Saturday...
Carthage snatches a draw with Chicago. Despite being outshot, UC seemed to be sitting pretty and cruising, but Carthage bagged an equalizer in the 89th minute. Good draw for Carthage, not so much Chicago.
Interesting to look at last year's national finalists, who started #1 and #2 in the preseason polls...
Tuft's falls to #12 today. After a loss last week and a tie today. Tufts has now gone 265 consecutive minutes without scoring a goal.
Wheaton (IL) who dropped out of the rankings early is crawling back...today at #22. They haven't lost in 6 games and have won their last three in row. Including a win over then #8 Chicago.
It's less than 12 hours until the Messiah/E-town Marshmallow Bowl and I haven't heard one E-town fan say "I've got a feeling . . . " Can someone hook me up? lastguyoffthebench? EtownPride09? BJBELIEVER? bluejay4life? Anyone?
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on September 29, 2015, 10:01:00 PM
Manhattanville 1, Merchant Marine 0. I think they could knock off Eastern this Saturday...
Yes to that. They have quietly been flying under the radar all season. Only way they get in is by winning their conference. They could be the team to "shock" Eastern in conference playoffs again.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on September 30, 2015, 08:38:40 AM
It's less than 12 hours until the Messiah/E-town Marshmallow Bowl and I haven't heard one E-town fan say "I've got a feeling . . . " Can someone hook me up? lastguyoffthebench? EtownPride09? BJBELIEVER? bluejay4life? Anyone?
Prediction:
Messiah 3
Etown 2
Overtime game. Slick playing surfaces. Should be a fun one!
I heard E-town lost to Rutgers-Camden 1-0 in a shortened preseason game.
Given Messiah early struggles and this being a road game in unpredictable weather, I'll go on to say E-town Atleast gets a point. Prediction E-town 2, Messiah 1.
We are halfway into the season. Preseason games are irrelevant at this point in the season.
Preseason game didn't have any bearing on my opinion, although it is just a common opponents reference to some degree (Rutgers-Camden historically vs. Rowan, the Miseri results last week; 1-7, 1-4). The fact that Messiah let up 4 goals twice this season has been factored into my prediction.
Messiah has had definitive problems in the back. Looking at some of the goals they let up; CBs were shifted out of position, communication mistakes, etc. The Falcons have plenty of time to sort out these growing pains, but as FW has mentioned- plan A is to earn the AQ.
It just goes to show how difficult it is to retain program success, especially when you get stripped of such a graduating class that Messiah had. Before the season, I said they'd have 4 losses this season... chalk up another one tonight, boys. In the words of EtownPride09 and BJF "I have a feeling..."
Can someone clarify for teams playing non-conference games this week due to the weather:
Postponed means the 2 teams will play at a later date.
Cancelled means the 2 teams cannot play at a later date due to scheduling and not being able to fit the game in.
I realize conference games cannot be cancelled but a lot of today's games are non-conference and a lot of them will play a huge factor into teams chances in November for a Pool C
Just saw on website that Kenyon-Case game is postponed, not canceled. Shocked because weather there supposed to be decent today but I guess downpours yesterday and field not playable. They have a turf field (football field) right there so can't fathom why they aren't playing there. Same issue last year for sweet 16 games. Should have used the turf or gone to another venue. Since supposed to rain for next several days not sure how they think they'll play DePauw on Saturday. Anyway, disappointing.
I can't attest to this but I've heard that Kenyon has a new turf field this year and that the new turf is not marked for soccer so they cannot play on the turf field.
Apparently the school has serious concerns about the field condition right now. Case women vs. Kenyon Ladies game was called early yesterday due to heavy rain and poor field condition.
Disappointing development. Hoping they postpone and don't cancel. Should have been one of the best Kenyon match-ups on their schedule this season.
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 30, 2015, 01:06:58 PM
Just saw on website that Kenyon-Case game is postponed, not canceled. Shocked because weather there supposed to be decent today but I guess downpours yesterday and field not playable. They have a turf field (football field) right there so can't fathom why they aren't playing there. Same issue last year for sweet 16 games. Should have used the turf or gone to another venue. Since supposed to rain for next several days not sure how they think they'll play DePauw on Saturday. Anyway, disappointing.
It rained a total of 4 days in September in Central Ohio. Field conditions are very firm and dry throughout the area. I reffed last night - we had .4 inches yesterday. U12's and U14's had no troubles with the conditions . . .
I will say that the field - especially down the touch lines - had bare spots and looked worn - this based on the one game I attended at Kenyon this year
TennesseeJed, that rings a bell about a new turf on the football field. And Domino, the irony is that what you saw (and I've seen via video) is I'm sure mostly a direct result of playing those sweet 16 games in horrible conditions last year. The field was badly damaged by those 3 games, and the OWU-Newport game was just ridiculous for an Elite 8 game, very high winds and a field that was in very questionable condition to play on. Normally, it's a beautiful field and the players (and coaches) spend about 45 minutes at least after each game walking around doing repairs and filling spots with sand.
Which game was cancelled and played on the Monday? Was it this pod? I thought I remembered Whitworth was one of the teams but I could be wrong. Either way that Monday game was really fun to "watch" as a neutral observer as each team had a half with the wind.
Quote from: Mr.Right on September 30, 2015, 02:51:46 PM
Which game was cancelled and played on the Monday? Was it this pod? I thought I remembered Whitworth was one of the teams but I could be wrong. Either way that Monday game was really fun to "watch" as a neutral observer as each team had a half with the wind.
Yes and no. Whitworth lost to CNU in a sweet 16 game. The first 2 games were delayed by a day because of ice all over the roads and the fields. Ironically, Whitworth was on the campus and OWU couldn't get there just 50 minutes away and I think CNU was staying in the Columbus area as well. By the time OWU and Kenyon were playing their sweet 16 game 3 teams were already in the Final Four. I remember sitting in the stands and learning that Messiah had lost. And the OWU and CNU played in the high winds game and I believe you are correct that it was a Monday.
Score one for DePauw too in terms of benefitting from the postponement. DPU has played several high level games in a row, including yesterday. In the last 2+ weeks Kenyon went a week without playing at all and then played Muskingum and Wittenberg. Kenyon needed the Case game before getting into the heart of the conference schedule, and before playing a very talented DePauw squad.
Ha anyone seen Stevens this year. They beat a couple Centennial teams but than have struggled with some weaker Empire 8 teams. 5-1-2 is not bad but I am surprised at the conference start
Well, Salisbury will move up another couple of spots next week. They lost to Catholic.
F&M with another razor-thin win, 2-1 in double OT to 1-win Ursinus.
Denison gets by Heidelberg 2-1.
Going to switch between Messiah v Etown 2nd half and WPI v Amherst 8pm start...The WPI stream is pretty good
Mr.Right, keep an eye on UMass-B at Bridgewater St......0-0 in 2nd half.
Though Amherst went 1-0 up at WPI in the 14th minute, the Engineers hit back three minutes later. Currently 1-1 in Worcester. Has to be the first time I've ever seen a team hit back so quickly at Amherst after going one down. Usually teams seem to accept their fate after going behind against the Jeffs, so good on the Engineers for responding brilliantly. Still fancy Amherst to edge it, but for entertainment's sake I hope it's a high-scoring draw.
lol I missed both goals...how they score them? From what I have been watching I have seen Cameron Bean blast about 3 balls 50 ft into the air..
First was a typical Amherst scrum in front of the net that was put in by Rico. WPI equalized from a long throw. Not the most aesthetically pleasing but I'd rather it be 1-1 than 0-0. Credit to WPI, the hosts seem to be going for it.
Ooooh WPI with the chance to go 2-1 up...Bull makes a kick save. WPI creating chances against the Amherst backline.
aesthetically pleasing and Amherst men's soccer.....don't make me laugh to hard
WPI looking good tonight. They work well as a team. They do not have that special player that can win games but they can hang with the best in New England. This is a NCAA tournament team IMO
Gettysburg heading to OT with Hopkins.
UMass-B game still scoreless.
So the Amherst line up looks a bit different than against Williams. Orozco gets sacked as Bryce Ciambella returns. Fitzgerald back from injury. Haskell sacked as a MF as I felt he was Amherst weakest player in the staring line up against Williams.
E'town wins 1-0.
Yikes 5-3-1 Messiah MUST win that conference tourney now
Good night for lastguy. Predicted E'town and Camden just won 1-0 over Rowan. Montclair heading to OT. Mass-Bos 30 secs from OT.
UMASS Boston playing nice futbol on the ground and Bridgewater absolutely whacking everything in sight
Loras and UW-W getting underway at the Rock Bowl. Wish they didn't have those football lines.
Amherst v WPI getting VERY chippy..Of course the camera guy turns to the scoreboard anytime some extra curricular stuff is going on after the whistle blows. Now what fun is that?
I have to admit Amherst doesn't look like they would be enjoyable to play against.
I've heard Serpone repeatedly on the broadcast screaming. ::) WPI has looked the better team since they equalized.
WPI has speed up front and skill in midfield.. Ask our SLU fans what they think of the whole Amherst bench scene
UMass-Bos wins it in 2nd OT. The celebration for a win over Bridgewater was a little much.
One of the Amherst defenders literally just booted a ball in midfield about 50 yards in the air with absolutely no danger or pressure...dare I call them "Amhoofst"?
Aaaaaand we go back to the scoreboard...extracurriculars after a foul went against Amherst. Unbelievably immature behavior.
Randolph and Roanoke headed to OT in battle of ODAC contenders.
Amherst starting to wear them down a bit...
WPI starting to look like they're holding on.
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 30, 2015, 09:35:39 PM
WPI starting to look like they're holding on.
You're right - starting to hoof it. They were in control for a while, and had the possession, but are now looking gassed.
What is impressive though is the # of headers WPI has won - much more than I would have guessed.
UW-W draws first blood.
I respect Amherst and they are a power in D3 soccer, but mark my words, they will never win a title unless they begin to play a more passing game.
Quote from: blooter442 on September 30, 2015, 09:37:48 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 30, 2015, 09:35:39 PM
WPI starting to look like they're holding on.
You're right - starting to hoof it. They were in control for a while, and had the possession, but are now looking gassed.
What is impressive though is the # of headers WPI has won - much more than I would have guessed.
Looks like caught their 2nd wind. Doing better now.
UWW up 1-0 at half against Loras
Thoughts on the 1st half of UWW-Loras?
Battle of two 2 good teams who don't play pretty soccer. Only goal off of a throw-in off the keeper's hands. Loras with one good chance to equalize. A second throw-in goal for UWW was waved off. Otherwise fairly equal.
Never seen anyone aimlessly boot the ball as much as Ajayi of Amherst. Every time it comes near him, whether under pressure or not - HOOF! - straight up in the air.
Despite being one of the ugliest overtimes I've ever seen, a good finely-poised game. Amherst slightly edging it but I could see WPI holding out for a very good draw.
2-1 Amherst with 3 min left in 2OT!! Not sure who got the winner but everyone was gassed at that point, with a lot of kick ball going on.
Congrats Lord Jeffs who remains undefeated
Singer again...Kid made a good run and the wheels of Martin set it up..Those 3 up top are the difference
Quote from: ECSUalum on September 30, 2015, 10:22:18 PM
2-1 Amherst with 3 min left in 2OT!! Not sure who got the winner but everyone was gassed at that point, with a lot of kick ball going on.
Singer from Martin. Three in his last two games. Had a feeling he was going to end it once he came on. A very good striker - perhaps a bit underrated.
Harsh on WPI, but I think they'll rebound. They're still far and away the best NEWMAC team I've seen this year, although MIT is quietly 7-1. Then again, MIT often has a habit of putting together some good results and then dropping one you wouldn't expect, but Bingham (who is still for some reason listed as a mid - he is definitely a CF) is scoring often, so you never know. Either way, WPI battled tonight and probably deserved a point, but Amherst knows how to win those close games (most of the time.)
UWW 2-1 Loras
Dylan Hottsmith, welcome to the Hawk Cup. Unbelievable sequence to score the goal. Splits three defenders then tucks in a far post finish with 3 min left!
First win for UWW over Loras since last second goal to win at Rock Bowl in 2010.
Think they needed a signature win. Will be interesting to see how tomorrow goes at North Park.
Quote from: Mr.Right on September 30, 2015, 08:56:29 PM
Yikes 5-3-1 Messiah MUST win that conference tourney now
Still don't think they need to win their conference to get in. If they run the table and lose in the conference final that puts them at 15-4-1. That would be harsh for them not to get in with that record. Haverford, Hopkins, Dickinson already are close to 4 losses and a tie. The CC beats up on each other so I am gong to guess that those 3 teams will have 4 or more losses come NCAA's. I doubt a third CC team would get a bid over Messiah. Just my thoughts.
I know we discussed before the "process" of selecting teams, but based off assumptions that the CC gets
at least 3 every year, that's where I am coming from with this one.
Still surprised that Etown won. I guess I shouldn't be though? ;D
Regarding the latest poll question, here's my analysis.
Bottom line...all 3 likely to get NCAA bids.
Messiah has been the most disappointing, but it's hard not to favor the Falcons winning the conference AQ, especially if the tournament final is on their home field. Lycoming winning the regular season game would make things interesting, as they likely would have home field, but does anyone want to bet on Lycoming beating Messiah twice? Falcons will make it and by November will have worked through most of the growing pains of a revamped roster.
Wheaton should be fine. Just too much talent even if their overall talent was slightly overestimated. The Wash U game is always a close one and an away loss at Loras means nothing (speaking of which, maybe Loras should have been included in the poll after another loss was hung on the Duhawks last night). The home draw with Rose Hulman was probably the weakest result out of their 3 blemishes, but then again, Rose Hulman beat DePauw away. Similar to Messiah, Wheaton really only has one team to worry much about in-conference, and that's North Park. Wheaton gets that game at home in their final fame of the regular season, and so Wheaton has a great chance to host their tourney. Look for Wheaton to run the table or at most have 1 more loss or a draw.
OWU on the surface would look to be in the most trouble because of significantly more in-conference competition, but they are really in no worse shape than they were last year at the same time (and of course we all know they went to the Final Four). Judging by their demolition of Capital last night, they are getting their injured players back in the mix and now will get stronger as the season progresses. They get Kenyon at home but do have to travel to DePauw. Oberlin could be competitive with them at Oberlin but that's a hard game to see OWU losing. This weekend at Wabash is interesting. Wabash needs a result (at least a draw) to have any chance of landing a conference tournament slot, and right about now is when I would expect OWU to go out to Crawfordsville and earn a solid 2-0 or 3-0 win. I do not believe this is one of OWU's signature teams (compared to squads over the prior 6-8 years), but I believed (and still believe) the same about last year's team. That said, OWU hasn't had a season where they didn't win EITHER the regular season OR conference tourney since like 1913. The OWU aura is generally good for at least a goal a game against their conference challengers, and I don't see any reason why that would be different this year. Martin is superb at making adjustments and winning big games (especially against teams that have a history of losing big games against OWU), and now that he is getting key players back from injury there's no reason to really expect anything different. No OAC team appears a threat for an large bid at the moment, and unless TMC loses their conference AQ, the only at large threats would come from CMU and Case (and of course NCAC rivals). When a team has NEVER (as in NEVER) lost twice to the same team in the same year it's hard to pick against them.
Messiah must win the AQ they will not get a Pool C. I have not seen Lycoming play this year as I tried to catch the match against U of Rochester but something came up and I could not watch. Mid Atlantic Fan has seen both teams I am sure more than once. What are your impressions of Lycoming and are they dangerous enough to win that AQ? I think 2 matches are must watches...Lycoming v Messiah and Lycoming v Oneonta St
Mr. Right,
Yes I have seen Messiah play a couple more times than I have seen Lycoming in the past few years but this year I have seen them both about 3 times (give or take a game). I do think Lycoming has a good chance of competing with Messiah.
Both teams graduated a ton of guys that contributed to championship teams. Lycoming returns a bulk of their attacking players which is probably the main reason for their defensive struggles this year. They were the last team in the country to give up a goal last year, so it's not that they are struggling, but they are struggling from what they are accustomed to. Not as many shut-outs as last year, giving up goals early, etc.
As for Messiah we know the class they graduated. IMO the best class of all time. So both teams I think are on an equal playing field when it comes to replacements filling in the gaps and stepping up as play makers. Lycoming lost a class that defeated the national champion Messiah team in 2013, but a bunch of those guys still remain on the current roster. I don't think Lycoming will be scared to play Messiah like most teams are. They have beaten Messiah already and with the results we have seen so far I think it adds to their confidence.
Now to get into the details and good stuff. The regular season match between Lycoming and Messiah is at Lycoming. It's a small turf field. Messiah has a large grass field so that will be a factor. With it being small, I think that hurts Messiah as they like to spread it out and possess offensively. This will help Lycoming (and Messiah) both from a defensive perspective.
Lycoming has some speed up top that I think can threaten the back line of Messiah. Messiah's possession is an advantage to them as Lycoming will have to defend more than they are used to, but the same holds true for Messiah.
Both teams have goalie issues. Not impressed with either teams keepers. Major drop off in that department for both teams.
If I had to pick right now who would win I would say it's a tie. I think these teams are deadlocked. After watching Lycoming absolutely dominate a good Rochester team on the road I am fully confident in saying that they will hang with Messiah.
I won't make a prediction for this game until we get closer and see how conference play starts to shape up, but yes they are dangerous enough this year to win the AQ for their conference.
The crazy thing about Messiah (and I do think they will make the dance and go on a run), is that they almost had to have a couple sub-par seasons for people to sit up and recognize what they have done for the past 15 years.
What they have accomplished does not make sense.
It will also never happen again that one team can be so dominant in D3 Soccer.
Kinda like there will never be another Usain Bolt.
People think that from 2000 and after messiah has been a great program, the truth is they have been extremely strong wayyyy before that and had die hard alumni all around the country form a decades before waiting for 2000 to happen.
Greatness is proven season after season by programs that can remain elite for 20-25 years. It takes more than a class or two to put that together. It also takes guys like:
Brandt
Dr. Jay
Durocher
Russo
and Joe Bean
who single-mindedly decide to make a program their legacy on this earth.
Hats off to Messiah, regardless of how this season finishes, I think we all have been witness to something extremely special.
Over the last 15 years while cheering on our own respective teams, we have seen Camelot in PA.
Quote from: Saint of Old on October 01, 2015, 02:54:30 PM
The crazy thing about Messiah (and I do think they will make the dance and go on a run), is that they almost had to have a couple sub-par seasons for people to sit up and recognize what they have done for the past 15 years.
What they have accomplished does not make sense.
It will also never happen again that one team can be so dominant in D3 Soccer.
Kinda like there will never be another Usain Bolt.
People think that from 2000 and after messiah has been a great program, the truth is they have been extremely strong wayyyy before that and had die hard alumni all around the country form a decades before waiting for 2000 to happen.
Greatness is proven season after season by programs that can remain elite for 20-25 years. It takes more than a class or two to put that together. It also takes guys like:
Brandt
Dr. Jay
Durocher
Russo
and Joe Bean
who single-mindedly decide to make a program their legacy on this earth.
Hats off to Messiah, regardless of how this season finishes, I think we all have been witness to something extremely special.
Over the last 15 years while cheering on our own respective teams, we have seen Camelot in PA.
I wholeheartedly agree!
Thank you for the analysis.....I hate to say it but I love watching Messiah on turf, it just speeds them up and everyone else a notch. I am old fashioned as I am a grass man but the turf is beginning to wear on me. Watching Brandeis on turf and grass is like watching two different teams.
What type of style does Lycoming play? Formation? How did they look against U of Rochester?
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 01, 2015, 10:36:19 AM
...OWU on the surface would look to be in the most trouble because of significantly more in-conference competition, but they are really in no worse shape than they were last year at the same time (and of course we all know they went to the Final Four). Judging by their demolition of Capital last night, they are getting their injured players back in the mix and now will get stronger as the season progresses... I do not believe this is one of OWU's signature teams (compared to squads over the prior 6-8 years), but I believed (and still believe) the same about last year's team. That said, OWU hasn't had a season where they didn't win EITHER the regular season OR conference tourney since like 1913... Martin is superb at making adjustments and winning big games (especially against teams that have a history of losing big games against OWU), and now that he is getting key players back from injury there's no reason to really expect anything different.
OWU 7-2-2 this year vs. 7-3-1 same time last year. Big difference this year not so much in record, but schedule and roster. First loss of 2014 was to Calvin, who was arguably a solid team last year. Losing seniors Colton Bloecher (who had 8 of their 23 goals by this time last year, and at least one assist) and Beemiller (who started in goal every game of the season last year) was a big loss for OWU in the same way that Kenyon's Justice, Ernst, and Carney (and certainly others--no intent to minimize importance of Mitsuyama, Petrou, Scott et al) graduating last year was/is a challenge for the Lords. Agree w/ you NENCAC that injuries have had an impact on their play for the past 4-5 games, with Baum and others out, but I don't think they've been moving the ball all that well (for OWU) relative to past teams, even with all the starters in. Schaefer, Lee, and Barnes have been the bright lights in my view this season (no huge surprise) but the bench depth of previous years doesn't seem to be as strong in the current season/squad. Agree with you entirely that Martin is as good as they come at making adjustments and finding ways to win games. Definitely not considering them out of contention--no matter where they are in rankings--until they're officially out. They're "gamers" and always there and ready to exploit other teams' weaknesses...they just wear them down... The "aura" as you say is a big psychological weapon. Still, all that said, they're not the team they were last year, or years before like 2011, IMO from what we've seen thus far this season. Who's to say...it ain't over yet...we'll get an insight this weekend against Wabash. Beating a 2-7 team even by 5-0 is not a turnaround--but it is a data point. I also agree with you that it's coming for them at a time when they have more consistent and simultaneous pressure from across the NCAC from teams that are capable of giving them a run for their money than they've had in recent years (maybe ever, at least in recent history?) Kenyon has been there before--certainly last year...the 2-0 loss in the NCAA tourney was really just heartbreaking that it came at the time it did...unfortunately, it just wasn't the Lords' day that day--and the Lords will hopefully go the distance this year. But, Kenyon, Denison and DePauw all simulaneously playing at, or better than, OWU's own performance has to be a first in a long time.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 01, 2015, 10:36:19 AMThis weekend at Wabash is interesting. Wabash needs a result (at least a draw) to have any chance of landing a conference tournament slot, and right about now is when I would expect OWU to go out to Crawfordsville and earn a solid 2-0 or 3-0 win.
Agree entirely. Wabash hasn't really played a really tough opponent yet (Rose-Hulman and Centre closest to being exceptions) in my opinion and the loss at Centre, combined with their poor showings at Mt. Joseph and Allegheny, kills not only their previous record and ranking, but also any momentum they had going for them as they move into their tougher conference game schedule. OWU is coming off a 5-0 stomping of Capital, getting their starters back in the game and my money is strongly on OWU this weekend too, which, if they win, will most likely dash any hopes Wabash may have had for a NCAA tournament run this year. Still, Wabash has shown that they can be hungry and determined and find the back of the net, as they did in the upset of Kenyon in Crawfordsville last year. Betting that OWU wants it worse than Wabash does at this point in the season and that the Bishops have more tools in their arsenal to emerge victoriously.
Case is back on Kenyon's schedule saying that the game is postponed, though no new date is set. (The game disappeared off their event calendar immediately following the announcement of the postponement yesterday.) As I said yesterday, I'm still hoping that they'll find a mutually good time to play the game. I agree with an earlier comment of yours that it was Kenyon's loss and DePauw's gain that Kenyon had to postpone the game, as they haven't played all that well as a team (despite a number of individual goals and winning games...) for the last few games, or like I think they're capable of playing. Will be interesting to see if Barnes is well enough to play at all this weekend and will also be interesting to see how and when Brown uses his [largely freshmen] bench. Myers and Lowry have loads of potential as new CB's for Kenyon, but aside from CMU, they're largely untested. Myers did a solid job of defending CMU's #5 Webb, so it will be interesting to see how the back line fares under more intense offensive pressure from DePauw, Denison, OWU and potentially Oberlin and Wabash. DePauw juniors Gonzalez and Hoffman are sure to press Myers and Lowry as hard as they can on Saturday.
Interesting, potentially close, games of interest on Sat 10/3
Tufts @ Amherst
DePauw @ Kenyon
CMU @ Brandeis
Rutgers Camden @ Kean
Hobart @ Skidmore
Haverford @ Gettysburg
Conn College @ Williams
OWU @ Wabash
Wheaton (MA) @ Babson
Great post, TennesseeJed. I've looked at the schedules and there isn't a time when I see the Case game being played. That means Kenyon, already with a game or two less than many teams, will be down to 16. Also supposed to rain steadily and perhaps at times heavily Saturday so not sure how the field will be in much better shape.
NCAA Rule for D3 states teams MUST play 13 regular season games at least to be considered for the NCAA D3 Tournament. Kenyon will find a way to play it even if they need to go neutral or on the road
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 01, 2015, 02:58:56 PM
Thank you for the analysis.....I hate to say it but I love watching Messiah on turf, it just speeds them up and everyone else a notch. I am old fashioned as I am a grass man but the turf is beginning to wear on me. Watching Brandeis on turf and grass is like watching two different teams.
What type of style does Lycoming play? Formation? How did they look against U of Rochester?
I myself prefer grass over turf but don't mind the turf...just prefer grass when given a choice (a good grass field that is). Lycoming over the past couple of years have had some coaching changes but it seems that their current head coach will be around for a while. The style of play since he has come in is mixed. A lot of clearing the ball to the corner and high pressing to turn their opponents over. Not quite sure what formation they play exactly, but they have a lone striker so it looks like a 4-5-1 to me. Sometimes looks like a 4-1-3-2 when in possession of the ball.
They are a physical, gritty, high pressing, defensive minded team from what I have seen of them, although they are scoring goals in bunches this year. This year they are able to possess the ball a little more than the past few years which could be leading to more goal production and they have an athletic group that starts for them.
As for the Rochester match up, they out shot UR 15-9 and had a 14-0 advantage on corner kicks which is an amazing statistic. I'd say they had the ball in Rochester's half of the field for the majority of the game. It was a physical contest and high paced so it was exciting to watch even with the 0-0 scoreline. A lot of yellow cards were given out and the foul count was 24-18 to Lycoming, which was honestly low for how physical the contest was. The referee let a lot go compared to most. Rochester was dangerous on the counter and set pieces. They had 2 legitimate chances for goal scoring opportunities. Lycoming had 6 or 7. The fair result probably should have been 2-0 or 2-1 Lycoming.
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 01, 2015, 03:29:29 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 01, 2015, 02:58:56 PM
Thank you for the analysis.....I hate to say it but I love watching Messiah on turf, it just speeds them up and everyone else a notch. I am old fashioned as I am a grass man but the turf is beginning to wear on me. Watching Brandeis on turf and grass is like watching two different teams.
What type of style does Lycoming play? Formation? How did they look against U of Rochester?
I myself prefer grass over turf but don't mind the turf...just prefer grass when given a choice (a good grass field that is). Lycoming over the past couple of years have had some coaching changes but it seems that their current head coach will be around for a while. The style of play since he has come in is mixed. A lot of clearing the ball to the corner and high pressing to turn their opponents over. Not quite sure what formation they play exactly, but they have a lone striker so it looks like a 4-5-1 to me. Sometimes looks like a 4-1-3-2 when in possession of the ball.
They are a physical, gritty, high pressing, defensive minded team from what I have seen of them, although they are scoring goals in bunches this year. This year they are able to possess the ball a little more than the past few years which could be leading to more goal production and they have an athletic group that starts for them.
As for the Rochester match up, they out shot UR 15-9 and had a 14-0 advantage on corner kicks which is an amazing statistic. I'd say they had the ball in Rochester's half of the field for the majority of the game. It was a physical contest and high paced so it was exciting to watch even with the 0-0 scoreline. A lot of yellow cards were given out and the foul count was 24-18 to Lycoming, which was honestly low for how physical the contest was. The referee let a lot go compared to most. Rochester was dangerous on the counter and set pieces. They had 2 legitimate chances for goal scoring opportunities. Lycoming had 6 or 7. The fair result probably should have been 2-0 or 2-1 Lycoming.
Excellent analysis...I love teams that high press and force giveaway's. They are usually fun to watch because they are as you said "gritty" type teams that may not have the most skill but they have more HEART than their opponent. 14-0 Corners is a statistic you normally do not see. Usually if a team has 0 corners it means they were pinned in their half the entire game. However, the statistic of having 14 corners with nothing to show for it is also surprising.
This brings up a question for our statistic minded posters: On avg...what is the % of corners scored on compared to corners taken? I would guess 4-5% but I could be way off.
I have posted this before but I believe Year-In and Year-Out that the University of Rochester the past 20 years are THE BIGGEST CONUNDRUM in D3 Soccer.
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 01, 2015, 03:47:52 PM
I have posted this before but I believe Year-In and Year-Out that the University of Rochester the past 20 years are THE BIGGEST CONUNDRUM in D3 Soccer.
LOL. It's a bit that way as an academic institution, too. Not too many, even in New England, know much about UR, and many aren't exactly sure where to place UR among its peers.
Yes a couple of those 6 or 7 legitimate chances were off set pieces and more specifically corners and long throws. Rochester cleared one off of the goal line on a header from a corner. Another chance for Lycoming was from a corner that was played deep then headed back across to the back post. Lycoming had 3 players wide open inside the 6 yard box where 2 of them completely missed the ball trying to kick it in and the third guy headed up and over from about 2 yards out on an open net. Another good chance was off a scrum in the box from a corner that UR some how eventually cleared. There was another play where a Lycoming player completely missed the ball (trying to kick it to hard maybe) at the edge of the 6 yard box and it deflected out for a corner.
Many missed opportunities for them to say the least. Also something I forgot to add to the analysis was fitness levels. UR looked exhausted come the 70th minute. Lycoming was flying all over for the entire 110 minutes of play. That also was something that impressed me about them and gives them a good chance to hang around with a very fit and deep Messiah team.
I hate Monday's and Thursday's during the season because they are DEAD days. It gives team much needed practice time and regeneration time but for us fans it is the worst
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 01, 2015, 03:40:54 PM
This brings up a question for our statistic minded posters: On avg...what is the % of corners scored on compared to corners taken? I would guess 4-5% but I could be way off.
Here's a good link i found for that http://www.scienceofsocceronline.com/2010/12/corner-kicks-by-numbers.html (http://www.scienceofsocceronline.com/2010/12/corner-kicks-by-numbers.html)
Say it's about 2%
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 01, 2015, 03:47:52 PM
I have posted this before but I believe Year-In and Year-Out that the University of Rochester the past 20 years are THE BIGGEST CONUNDRUM in D3 Soccer.
What's the furthest they've made it? They seem to make the Tournament most years - 2011 was the last time they didn't make it I believe - but, 2009 aside, the Sweet 16 seems to be the furthest ago.
Either way, aside from 2011 when they rightly didn't make it, there have been some years where they've veeeery fishily gotten in...8-5-2 regular season in 2006 anyone?
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 01, 2015, 03:51:28 PM
Yes a couple of those 6 or 7 legitimate chances were off set pieces and more specifically corners and long throws. Rochester cleared one off of the goal line on a header from a corner. Another chance for Lycoming was from a corner that was played deep then headed back across to the back post. Lycoming had 3 players wide open inside the 6 yard box where 2 of them completely missed the ball trying to kick it in and the third guy headed up and over from about 2 yards out on an open net. Another good chance was off a scrum in the box from a corner that UR some how eventually cleared. There was another play where a Lycoming player completely missed the ball (trying to kick it to hard maybe) at the edge of the 6 yard box and it deflected out for a corner.
Many missed opportunities for them to say the least. Also something I forgot to add to the analysis was fitness levels. UR looked exhausted come the 70th minute. Lycoming was flying all over for the entire 110 minutes of play. That also was something that impressed me about them and gives them a good chance to hang around with a very fit and deep Messiah team.
Another good point that we do not talk about enough on here. Teams fitness levels. Fitness is obviously a major factor in soccer. IMO teams that are not fit especially at this point in the season means they did not prepare or care to prepare enough in the off season. There is no reason a team a month into the season should be gassed at the 70th minute. THE ONLY EXCEPTION is if you have no depth and therefore cannot give guys a blow without sacrificing the overall play on the field. Teams that are fit and can run and run IMO mean they worked extra hard in the off season, have decent depth, good senior leadership and coaching leadership making sure the guys were ready to begin the season and finally that the team CARES and WANTS it more.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 01, 2015, 10:36:19 AM
Regarding the latest poll question, here's my analysis.
Bottom line...all 3 likely to get NCAA bids.
Messiah has been the most disappointing, but it's hard not to favor the Falcons winning the conference AQ, especially if the tournament final is on their home field. Lycoming winning the regular season game would make things interesting, as they likely would have home field, but does anyone want to bet on Lycoming beating Messiah twice? Falcons will make it and by November will have worked through most of the growing pains of a revamped roster.
Wheaton should be fine. Just too much talent even if their overall talent was slightly overestimated. The Wash U game is always a close one and an away loss at Loras means nothing (speaking of which, maybe Loras should have been included in the poll after another loss was hung on the Duhawks last night). The home draw with Rose Hulman was probably the weakest result out of their 3 blemishes, but then again, Rose Hulman beat DePauw away. Similar to Messiah, Wheaton really only has one team to worry much about in-conference, and that's North Park. Wheaton gets that game at home in their final fame of the regular season, and so Wheaton has a great chance to host their tourney. Look for Wheaton to run the table or at most have 1 more loss or a draw.
OWU on the surface would look to be in the most trouble because of significantly more in-conference competition, but they are really in no worse shape than they were last year at the same time (and of course we all know they went to the Final Four). Judging by their demolition of Capital last night, they are getting their injured players back in the mix and now will get stronger as the season progresses. They get Kenyon at home but do have to travel to DePauw. Oberlin could be competitive with them at Oberlin but that's a hard game to see OWU losing. This weekend at Wabash is interesting. Wabash needs a result (at least a draw) to have any chance of landing a conference tournament slot, and right about now is when I would expect OWU to go out to Crawfordsville and earn a solid 2-0 or 3-0 win. I do not believe this is one of OWU's signature teams (compared to squads over the prior 6-8 years), but I believed (and still believe) the same about last year's team. That said, OWU hasn't had a season where they didn't win EITHER the regular season OR conference tourney since like 1913. The OWU aura is generally good for at least a goal a game against their conference challengers, and I don't see any reason why that would be different this year. Martin is superb at making adjustments and winning big games (especially against teams that have a history of losing big games against OWU), and now that he is getting key players back from injury there's no reason to really expect anything different. No OAC team appears a threat for an large bid at the moment, and unless TMC loses their conference AQ, the only at large threats would come from CMU and Case (and of course NCAC rivals). When a team has NEVER (as in NEVER) lost twice to the same team in the same year it's hard to pick against them.
If the question is who is more likely to not win their conference championship and automatic berth, Ohio Wesleyan seems the more obvious choice because there's more legitamate challengers in the NCAC and one in particular, Kenyon, who is a Top 25 team and at this point the favorite.
If the question is who is less likely to get an at-large berth should they fail to win their conference and automatic berth, then I think Messiah becomes the more obvious choice as their SOS will be significantly lower and not sure how they get any wins versus ranked teams anymore besides Lycoming (e.g. beat Lycoming reg. season, but loss in conference tournament). It's not impossible that someone like Alvernia could end up being regionally ranked, but any victory by Messiah makes that less likely (games like that become lose-lose sitautions from an at-large resume stand-point). OWU can still pick-up wins vs. ranked teams in their conference regular season and tournament with Kenyon, DePauw, Denison, and maybe even Wabash being likely/potential candidates for the regional ranking. So OWU has plenty of opportunities to build an at-large berth resume whereas Messiah largely does not.
But the poll question combined the two above questions, so it makes it tricky. Which is more likely to happen: Messiah failing to win both elimination games in the Commonwealth playoffs or Ohio Wesleyan failing to pick-up a couple wins against the other top teams in the conference (reg. season and/or conf. semifinal) so they have wins vs. ranked teams on their at-large resume?
Hood has lost to Messiah 5-0, 6-1 the last two seasons. Can Hood pack it in and get a result this year, albeit 0-0? Can Drew Demich (15g 2a) pull a William Webb? His goals have come in bunches vs weaker opponents, but 15 goals on 51 shots is impressive (32 SOG).
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 01, 2015, 04:00:58 PM
Another good point that we do not talk about enough on here. Teams fitness levels. Fitness is obviously a major factor in soccer. IMO teams that are not fit especially at this point in the season means they did not prepare or care to prepare enough in the off season. There is no reason a team a month into the season should be gassed at the 70th minute. THE ONLY EXCEPTION is if you have no depth and therefore cannot give guys a blow without sacrificing the overall play on the field. Teams that are fit and can run and run IMO mean they worked extra hard in the off season, have decent depth, good senior leadership and coaching leadership making sure the guys were ready to begin the season and finally that the team CARES and WANTS it more.
Agree wholeheartedly MrR, but when I see teams like RPI and Hobart both playing tough, physical games on back to back days, like they each will tomorrow and Saturday, even with fit teams, I could see them looking a bit gassed late in 2H on day 2... Not so much winded, in my view, as just muscle fatigue, particularly when you're getting banged up pretty good on day 1.
That said, I agree with you entirely that there's really no excuse for it on day 1. Lack of depth is really more of a recruiting problem than a fitness problem...unless it resulted from cuts due to lack of fitness when recruiting classes showed up for pre-season...
Love to see it when Captains, in particular, but coaches too, take a real lead w/ new recruits and proactively give them summer workouts so they can show up having (hopefully) done the same workout expected of returning players. Then, a cut by the coach of players who can't pass whatever fitness test(s) he/she chooses, is usually enough to hit home...nobody is fit enough in a competitive college soccer program to do no fitness. Might have worked in HS or club, but players have to want it bad enough at this level. If they don't, others will...
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 01, 2015, 04:49:50 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 01, 2015, 10:36:19 AM
Regarding the latest poll question, here's my analysis.
Bottom line...all 3 likely to get NCAA bids.
Messiah has been the most disappointing, but it's hard not to favor the Falcons winning the conference AQ, especially if the tournament final is on their home field. Lycoming winning the regular season game would make things interesting, as they likely would have home field, but does anyone want to bet on Lycoming beating Messiah twice? Falcons will make it and by November will have worked through most of the growing pains of a revamped roster.
Wheaton should be fine. Just too much talent even if their overall talent was slightly overestimated. The Wash U game is always a close one and an away loss at Loras means nothing (speaking of which, maybe Loras should have been included in the poll after another loss was hung on the Duhawks last night). The home draw with Rose Hulman was probably the weakest result out of their 3 blemishes, but then again, Rose Hulman beat DePauw away. Similar to Messiah, Wheaton really only has one team to worry much about in-conference, and that's North Park. Wheaton gets that game at home in their final fame of the regular season, and so Wheaton has a great chance to host their tourney. Look for Wheaton to run the table or at most have 1 more loss or a draw.
OWU on the surface would look to be in the most trouble because of significantly more in-conference competition, but they are really in no worse shape than they were last year at the same time (and of course we all know they went to the Final Four). Judging by their demolition of Capital last night, they are getting their injured players back in the mix and now will get stronger as the season progresses. They get Kenyon at home but do have to travel to DePauw. Oberlin could be competitive with them at Oberlin but that's a hard game to see OWU losing. This weekend at Wabash is interesting. Wabash needs a result (at least a draw) to have any chance of landing a conference tournament slot, and right about now is when I would expect OWU to go out to Crawfordsville and earn a solid 2-0 or 3-0 win. I do not believe this is one of OWU's signature teams (compared to squads over the prior 6-8 years), but I believed (and still believe) the same about last year's team. That said, OWU hasn't had a season where they didn't win EITHER the regular season OR conference tourney since like 1913. The OWU aura is generally good for at least a goal a game against their conference challengers, and I don't see any reason why that would be different this year. Martin is superb at making adjustments and winning big games (especially against teams that have a history of losing big games against OWU), and now that he is getting key players back from injury there's no reason to really expect anything different. No OAC team appears a threat for an large bid at the moment, and unless TMC loses their conference AQ, the only at large threats would come from CMU and Case (and of course NCAC rivals). When a team has NEVER (as in NEVER) lost twice to the same team in the same year it's hard to pick against them.
If the question is who is more likely to not win their conference championship and automatic berth, Ohio Wesleyan seems the more obvious choice because there's more legitamate challengers in the NCAC and one in particular, Kenyon, who is a Top 25 team and at this point the favorite.
If the question is who is less likely to get an at-large berth should they fail to win their conference and automatic berth, then I think Messiah becomes the more obvious choice as their SOS will be significantly lower and not sure how they get any wins versus ranked teams anymore besides Lycoming (e.g. beat Lycoming reg. season, but loss in conference tournament). It's not impossible that someone like Alvernia could end up being regionally ranked, but any victory by Messiah makes that less likely (games like that become lose-lose sitautions from an at-large resume stand-point). OWU can still pick-up wins vs. ranked teams in their conference regular season and tournament with Kenyon, DePauw, Denison, and maybe even Wabash being likely/potential candidates for the regional ranking. So OWU has plenty of opportunities to build an at-large berth resume whereas Messiah largely does not.
But the poll question combined the two above questions, so it makes it tricky. Which is more likely to happen: Messiah failing to win both elimination games in the Commonwealth playoffs or Ohio Wesleyan failing to pick-up a couple wins against the other top teams in the conference (reg. season and/or conf. semifinal) so they have wins vs. ranked teams on their at-large resume?
FW, I respectfully disagree. Until someone prevents OWU from winning the regular season (2007 is maybe last time the didn't) AND the NCAC tournament, OWU is the presumed favorite as I'm sure any good OWU supporter will tell you. Consider this. Kenyon was ranked significantly ahead of OWU for 90% of last season (can't recall the first poll but certainly all the way until the very last poll after the Final Four), and so far just about the same has been true. Kenyon was ranked #2 in the country for the majority of last season, and yet again OWU won the regular season title and even in the sweet 16 game I doubt anyone thought Kenyon had better than 50/50 odds and some were certain that OWU would win. But more to the point....against that backdrop, both of the last two seasons OWU was picked to win the NCAC in the preseason predictions by the conference coaches. I think a similar dynamic applies with Messiah. I don't know enough about Wheaton and the North Park rivalry or any other teams where Wheaton has historically broken their hearts, but certainly with Messiah there is a huge psychological factor and advantage. Conference final.... only 1 bid on the line.....are you picking Lycoming or Messiah? I'm starting to ramble, but my point here is that you can't just look at this one season out of context of the larger history that impacts some of these huge games. And believe me, when the time comes, the edge that some have will be underscored in any variety of ways and teams will try to get an edge absolutely any way they can.
Maybe I shouldn't have called Kenyon favorites, but my point was that OWU has more legitimate challengers to the conference throne than Messiah does. I don't think that can be disputed (Is Lycoming as good as Kenyon? Is Alvernia as good as DePauw or Denison?). So while both Messiah and OWU are favorites and more likely to win their AQ than not, I believe the chances and scenarios for OWU to be dethroned are greater than for Messiah. And that was all I meant to say in the first paragraph in which the question I posed and responded to wasn't whether it is likely that Messiah or OWU would lose in their conference tournament, but rather which one is more likely than the other to lose in their conference tournament. In response to that question, I stand by my pick of Ohio Wesleyan at this point in time. Now, if Messiah goes into a tailspin between now and then, . . .
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 01, 2015, 08:39:48 PM
Maybe I shouldn't have called Kenyon favorites, but my point was that OWU has more legitimate challengers to the conference throne than Messiah does. I don't think that can be disputed (Is Lycoming as good as Kenyon? Is Alvernia as good as DePauw or Denison?). So while both Messiah and OWU are favorites and more likely to win their AQ than not, I believe the chances and scenarios for OWU to be dethroned are greater than for Messiah. And that was all I meant to say in the first paragraph in which the question I posed and responded to wasn't whether it is likely that Messiah or OWU would lose in their conference tournament, but rather which one is more likely than the other to lose in their conference tournament. I stand by my pick of Ohio Wesleyan at this point in time. Now, if Messiah goes into a tailspin between now and then, . . .
And if you check again I think you'll see that I did suggest that OWU had far greater in-conference challenges than either Messiah or Wheaton. Was pretty explicit in fact stating Messiah and Wheaton really had only one in-conference and that OWU has several. That said, the question was also about biggest disappointment so far based on expectations. You did hit on something....I think OWU is favored in some real way. The question there is WHY, and how does that or does not impact what happens in reality.
North Park wins it with 10 seconds left in regulation.
Question for the Dave Brandt faithful....Is this year's Army v Navy fixture at PPL field on ESPN U again?
While we are on D1 for a second. What a mess current WNEC coach left former Kenyon and Bowdoin head coach Fran O'Leary at UMASS. UMASS is 1-9-0 and O'Neil was an assistant there for 3 years before becoming Interim Head Coach for a year. He would have recruited all those players at the very least. Rumors have it that O'Leary was overheard saying his Bowdoin teams would have beaten this UMASS team.
UMass has unfortunately had a string of lackluster seasons, but this one is one of the worst...they held their own vs. UNH. I don't know for sure, but I don't think the recruiting effort has been strong at all. One of their stronger players IMO (Matt Pease) was a walk on as a freshmen... UMass doesn't put much behind the team in terms of $$ either. I don' think they have many, or any, scholarships at all--maybe 1 or 2 max...for all 4 years. Hard to be competitive when football and basketball absorb all the sunlight. UMass women's soccer has historically been much stronger than their men.
Back to D3!
Separation weekend in D3 soccer has begun!
Cortland holds Plattsburgh to 0-0 in regulation
Vassar up 1-0 on St. Lawrence 54' into game
Hobart holding RPI to 0-0 at 54'
Oneonta squeaks by Brockport with a 1-0 finish
Can't wait for tomorrow's matches...not sure where...but there is trouble ahead in the forecast all over the country!
Hobart gets out of town with a very good 0-0 draw at RPI. Statesmen are looking good at 6-1-2 and I think are in with a shout even against SLU and Vassar. We shall see.
UAA Conference Play starts tomorrow. Probably one of the most unpredictable league in the country, and match day 1 looks interesting.
Carnegie Mellon @ Brandeis: Can't see the Judges dropping this one. 3-1 'Deis.
Emory @ Chicago: Emory rebounded after a slow start and Chicago has dropped a few recently. I can see 0-0.
Case @ NYU: Case is my dark horse in the conference and I like them to pick up a nice road win 2-0.
Rochester @ WashU: Should be a pretty even game here and I'm going for a 2-2 draw.
;D
Quote from: TennesseeJed on October 02, 2015, 05:17:55 PM
UMass has unfortunately had a string of lackluster seasons, but this one is one of the worst...they held their own vs. UNH. I don't know for sure, but I don't think the recruiting effort has been strong at all. One of their stronger players IMO (Matt Pease) was a walk on as a freshmen... UMass doesn't put much behind the team in terms of $$ either. I don' think they have many, or any, scholarships at all--maybe 1 or 2 max...for all 4 years. Hard to be competitive when football and basketball absorb all the sunlight. UMass women's soccer has historically been much stronger than their men.
Saddest thing to me is that UMass-Amherst as the flagship university has let UMass-Lowell (brand new in D1) get some really good players that I'd bet some money UMass-Amh could have snagged with minimal effort.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 01, 2015, 10:07:29 PM
North Park wins it with 10 seconds left in regulation.
NPU dominated the match. The Vikings had the run of play and UWW was only able to get the ball into the forward third a scant few times throughout the match. The Warhawks mustered only one shot on goal all night, and really only had one good chance (a Warhawk couldn't quite align a backside tip off of a corner). Most of their offense consisted of thunderous free kicks from distance by 6'8, 240 behemoth defender Justin Stanko.
The Warhawks defense is very good, and they did an outstanding job of holding NPU at bay for 89 minutes and 50 seconds, but I'm a little surprised that the Vikings didn't get on the scoreboard earlier than that. They certainly had multiple opportunities. Fortunately for North Park, Pedram Tahmi-Masoleh was there to knock in his 13th goal of the season (in only ten matches) to bring about the win. As for the jawing and the contact, yeah, it was a chippy affair, but it was more a matter of how badly the two squads wanted it than it was of dirty play or inherent animosity. (Coach Born and Coach Guinn have great respect for each other.)
UW-Whitewater went deeper into the bench than it did the night before against Loras, as Coach Guinn had a regular shuttle going in and out in order to keep his people as fresh as they could possibly be, considering the circumstances. The Warhawks' road-weariness was balanced out by the fact that North Park is a M*A*S*H unit right now, with multiple injuries and illnesses being suffered by key NPU personnel.
Great match to watch, even on a night when most of NPU's student section (Foster's Finest) was unable to make it to the stadium.
Wow. Calvin sneaks by KZoo in OT. Rough year for KZoo after some real expectation.
OWU 3-0 vs Wabash. Schaefer w/ a hat trick. I'd say that this represents the beginning of a strong trend for OWU, following on the 5-0 victory last week at Capital. Too bad the game went off early. I had planned to watch after Kenyon and depauw.
Cortland st trounces Potsdam st. 4-0. Big upset!
Cmu battles back in 2h to avoid shutout by Brandeis after 3-0 1h finish.
Well, #1 lasted all of 4 days. DePauw wins it w 8 secs left in 1st OT very much against run of play but field was so poor you could see that this might happen. I'll have more to add after I stop hitting my head against the wall.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 03, 2015, 04:50:26 PM
Well, #1 lasted all of 4 days. DePauw wins it w 8 secs left in 1st OT very much against run of play but field was so poor you could see that this might happen. I'll have more to add after I stop hitting my head against the wall.
Take some Aleve. That was Kenyon's first test. They can bounce back
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 03, 2015, 04:50:26 PM
Well, #1 lasted all of 4 days. DePauw wins it w 8 secs left in 1st OT very much against run of play but field was so poor you could see that this might happen. I'll have more to add after I stop hitting my head against the wall.
DePauw now has some excellent results against soon to be regionally ranked opponents. Just looking at their resume they have Pool C if not AQ written all over as long as they take care of business against the teams they should beat. If OWU wins the conference tournament you are looking at 3 if not 4 teams out of the NCAC for the NCAA's
NCAC,
I thought you wanted them to lose a game or two before the NCAA's....Usually this will help teams re-focus and get their team goals in order.
Quote from: Nutmeg on October 03, 2015, 04:56:39 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 03, 2015, 04:50:26 PM
Well, #1 lasted all of 4 days. DePauw wins it w 8 secs left in 1st OT very much against run of play but field was so poor you could see that this might happen. I'll have more to add after I stop hitting my head against the wall.
Take some Aleve. That was Kenyon's first test. They can bounce back
Haha, Aleve ain't gonna get it done. Only reason ball was even in DPU's end was because of total blown call for a throw in a minute later and then DPU wins it off a throw in that I think actually bounced first before kid headed it in. Amolo ticked the ref off in first minutes of game and would not get a call the rest of the game. Love the kid but he's got to grow up and and just stay laser focused on the task at hand. The footing was terrible which impacted both teams but Kenyon dominated possession and was in DPU end most of the game. Occasionally DPU would have a half-chance on the counter. Even with poor conditions Kenyon had enough chances to win and just didn't finish one in regulation. Now another week before they play again, which is at Wooster and so really nothing going their way in terms of being truly ready for the bigger games. DPU will enjoy a wonderful ride back to Greencastle. At least I love Brad Stevens lol.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 03, 2015, 05:07:46 PM
Quote from: Nutmeg on October 03, 2015, 04:56:39 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 03, 2015, 04:50:26 PM
Well, #1 lasted all of 4 days. DePauw wins it w 8 secs left in 1st OT very much against run of play but field was so poor you could see that this might happen. I'll have more to add after I stop hitting my head against the wall.
Take some Aleve. That was Kenyon's first test. They can bounce back
Maybe some good whiskey then.....
Haha, Aleve ain't gonna get it done. Only reason ball was even in DPU's end was because of total blown call for a throw in a minute later and then DPU wins it off a throw in that I think actually bounced first before kid headed it in. Amolo ticked the ref off in first minutes of game and would not get a call the rest of the game. Love the kid but he's got to grow up and and just stay laser focused on the task at hand. The footing was terrible which impacted both teams but Kenyon dominated possession and was in DPU end most of the game. Occasionally DPU would have a half-chance on the counter. Even with poor conditions Kenyon had enough chances to win and just didn't finish one in regulation. Now another week before they play again, which is at Wooster and so really nothing going their way in terms of being truly ready for the bigger games. DPU will enjoy a wonderful ride back to Greencastle. At least I love Brad Stevens lol.
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 03, 2015, 05:07:26 PM
NCAC,
I thought you wanted them to lose a game or two before the NCAA's....Usually this will help teams re-focus and get their team goals in order.
Didn't want them to lose. Just didn't want them to be overhyped. And definitely wanted the Case game win or lose to be ready today. They've handed the regular season to OWU YET. AGAIN. And CANNOT lose home games in a tight conference race.
Yep, Nutmeg, maybe I can get the whiskey from Tennessee Jed. Sounds like a good bet!
Falcons defeat Hood 3-1, playing very well on both ends. Hood's top scorer (came in with 15 goals, you read that correctly) got only 2 shots (I think), one of which was blocked by the defense. There is some evidence that they are starting to right the ship, starting with the second half vs Etown on Wednesday, which Messiah wholly dominated but failed to score (this is a common scenario for them this fall, going back to the scoreless game vs Gettysburg that they also totally dominated.
I agree with the analysis here that they will need to play their way into the tournament this year, given that they already have 4 blemishes and zero quality wins. I hope the last 3 halves will give them a real head of steam that doesn't run out of fuel the rest of the way. It's an extraordinarily young team for the Falcons, who almost never started 4 or 5 freshman in the past (it might have happened a few times with the first championship class in the late 1990s). We'll see.
The best Falcon on the field most of the time has been outside defender Jocob Bender. A defensive bulwark on the right side, he's also probably the second best attacker. He doesn't usually get to shoot, but more than 70% of his shots are on frame, including a wonderful free kick from far out early in the season. He's so shifty and skilled with the ball and comes way forward, not just on overlapping runs but also during buildups in the center of the field. In the second half vs Etown, I noticed that he was at least once or twice the closest Falcon to Etown's goal. If he keeps playing this well, I would not be surprised to see him get some AA nominations, even though with the Falcons in a down year I doubt he'd actually be named one. I cannot recall seeing a Falcon outside defender ever play as well as he's playing this year.
And Kean goes up 1-0 on Rutgers-Camden early in 2nd half. Kean is 10-1-0 and 2-0-0 in the NJAC. If they hold on (lots of time though), they're sitting at 11-1-0 overall and 3-0-0 and tied top of the NJAC. Very suspect schedule to date with loss to a sub .500 Swarthmore, meant not taking them too seriously to date, but that might have to change.
And should add that Kean is outshooting RUC 18-7, SOG 8-5 edge.
Make that 2-0 for Kean. This is just a crazy season. Parity and/or inconsistency on steroids!
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 03, 2015, 05:24:14 PM
Make that 2-0 for Kean. This is just a crazy season. Parity and/or inconsistency on steroids!
Whatever it is, at least it's entertaining! ;D
Too big to fail is a thing of the past in D3 soccer.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 03, 2015, 05:24:14 PM
Make that 2-0 for Kean. This is just a crazy season. Parity and/or inconsistency on steroids!
Wind is a MAJOR factor in this game. Kean must have a 40mph wind at their back
York earns a draw vs CNU. MSU should be sliding into the #1 slot for South Atlantic region
Even with Kean having played a soft schedule, the Massey Ratings prediction was Kean 46% Camden 41%.
NSCAA south Atlantic movement
MSU
CNU
Kean
Camden
Rowan
Maryville
Newark
Salisbury
Lynchburg
Stockton
Kean moving ahead of Camden wouldn't surprise me, so expect them at #3 or #5.
North Park handles Millikin down in Decatur, 2-0, as NPU advances to 9-2-0, 1-0-0 and the Big Blue drops to 8-2-0, 0-1-0. In the other conference opener involving one of the CCIW's Big Two, Wheaton loses a double-overtime decision at Elmhurst, 2-1, dropping Wheaton to 6-3-1, 0-1-0. That's quite a surprise, since Elmhurst appears to be really down this season.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 03, 2015, 07:03:40 PM
North Park handles Millikin down in Decatur, 2-0, as NPU advances to 9-2-0, 1-0-0 and the Big Blue drops to 8-2-0, 0-1-0. In the other conference opener involving one of the CCIW's Big Two, Wheaton loses a double-overtime decision at Elmhurst, 2-1, dropping Wheaton to 6-3-1, 0-1-0. That's quite a surprise, since Elmhurst appears to be really down this season.
Wow, and everyone picked Wheaton as the best team in the country this year... Now, it's possible they may may not make the tournament unless they win out...
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 03, 2015, 05:12:20 PM
Yep, Nutmeg, maybe I can get the whiskey from Tennessee Jed. Sounds like a good bet!
As long as you don't mind sharing, I'm your huckleberry... Aleve won't cut it! :)
Amolo honestly couldn't move without getting called for an offensive foul. I've seen some poor, one sided officiating before but honestly never this bad in a college game. Kenyon deserves credit for dominating regulation play but failing to find the net with high teens number of shots. Defensively, I thought the Lords are holding up well relative to pre and early season concerns. The game today ain't gonna help their rankings but I hope it serves as a call to up their game focus and intensity and press even harder near the box. Not bad today but should have been a regulation time W and a 9-0 record. Lords struggling to score when under pressure. 5-0 against Wittenberg not significant; 4 against CMU was. 0 against DePauw is a loss, even if DePauw hadn't gotten lucky on a bad call and a lucky bounce to get one in in OT. If the lords want to make a legit NCAA run and play with top 10 teams, the team has to deliver goals, under pressure. Period.
I think and hope they'll rise to the challenge. They have the ability.
Quote from: Nutmeg on October 03, 2015, 07:09:34 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 03, 2015, 07:03:40 PM
North Park handles Millikin down in Decatur, 2-0, as NPU advances to 9-2-0, 1-0-0 and the Big Blue drops to 8-2-0, 0-1-0. In the other conference opener involving one of the CCIW's Big Two, Wheaton loses a double-overtime decision at Elmhurst, 2-1, dropping Wheaton to 6-3-1, 0-1-0. That's quite a surprise, since Elmhurst appears to be really down this season.
Wow, and everyone picked Wheaton as the best team in the country this year... Now, it's possible they may may not make the tournament unless they win out...
Wheaton certainly came into the season with arguably one of the most talented rosters in the country. The wildcard was their new head coach, who had a limited track record coming in. He doesn't seem to have gotten nearly the best out of his team yet. Let's see how they do down the stretch. But their margin for error at this point is very slim.
Quote from: Falconer on October 03, 2015, 05:13:50 PM
Falcons defeat Hood 3-1, playing very well on both ends. Hood's top scorer (came in with 15 goals, you read that correctly) got only 2 shots (I think), one of which was blocked by the defense. There is some evidence that they are starting to right the ship, starting with the second half vs Etown on Wednesday, which Messiah wholly dominated but failed to score (this is a common scenario for them this fall, going back to the scoreless game vs Gettysburg that they also totally dominated.
I agree with the analysis here that they will need to play their way into the tournament this year, given that they already have 4 blemishes and zero quality wins. I hope the last 3 halves will give them a real head of steam that doesn't run out of fuel the rest of the way. It's an extraordinarily young team for the Falcons, who almost never started 4 or 5 freshman in the past (it might have happened a few times with the first championship class in the late 1990s). We'll see.
The best Falcon on the field most of the time has been outside defender Jocob Bender. A defensive bulwark on the right side, he's also probably the second best attacker. He doesn't usually get to shoot, but more than 70% of his shots are on frame, including a wonderful free kick from far out early in the season. He's so shifty and skilled with the ball and comes way forward, not just on overlapping runs but also during buildups in the center of the field. In the second half vs Etown, I noticed that he was at least once or twice the closest Falcon to Etown's goal. If he keeps playing this well, I would not be surprised to see him get some AA nominations, even though with the Falcons in a down year I doubt he'd actually be named one. I cannot recall seeing a Falcon outside defender ever play as well as he's playing this year.
According to Messiah website, the final score was...
Messiah - 4
Hood - 1
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 03, 2015, 05:10:47 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 03, 2015, 05:07:26 PM
NCAC,
I thought you wanted them to lose a game or two before the NCAA's....Usually this will help teams re-focus and get their team goals in order.
Didn't want them to lose. Just didn't want them to be overhyped. And definitely wanted the Case game win or lose to be ready today. They've handed the regular season to OWU YET. AGAIN. And CANNOT lose home games in a tight conference race.
Agree with you nencac--on not wanting a loss or overhyping. Hoping it's too early to concede defeat on NCAC championship though!! OWU is looking strong but they've got some tough games ahead too. Wabash isn't DePauw or Denison, and let's remember that Kenyon beat them as a better team last year too, despite the obvious fall in round 3. With a shot of jack Daniels already down, (note the nod to TN whiskey over KY bourbon, as much as I like both... :)) I'm feeling optimistic. Pls join me!
Surprising that Denison didn't put up a stronger result than 1-0 vs Hiram at home. I couldn't watch game but would have expected stronger showing. Thought Brandeis looked very good in 1h against cmu. Didn't see 2h but 3-0 1h score was appropriate. Glad cmu stepped it up in 2h but Brandeis looks and plays like a serious NCAA challenger to me.
Yes, I misreported that score for Messiah's game. It was 4-1, not 3-1. Sorry for the typo. Should have proofread it before sending.
Well, the day after a couple of drinks and a Dave Chappelle concert (guy is a genius), I'm feeling just a smidge better.
First of all, congrats to DePauw. They've beaten Loras and Kenyon in the first half of the season. The Tigers are in an excellent position, especially with a major conference road win under their belt. Whether they should have won is irrelevant. They hung around and walked away with a W.
Secondly, thank you TennesseeJed for what your wrote about the refereeing. No one wants hear a die-hard partisan complain about that. I wasn't there live, but many of the calls (and non-calls) looked bad. Looked like DePauw decided the strategy is to rough up Amolo as much as early and as much as possible. Within the first 3 minutes DPU's D1 transfer (maybe it was D1 football?) took out Amolo and seemed unphased about earning an early yellow for his troubles, and a few minutes later another DPU player took Amolo out. No doubt Tony played up the fouls with a little drama but he could have been seriously injured too. Those seemed to be the worst, but they held and bumped him and pulled his shirt the whole game. When Amolo tried to just hold his position to receive a throw-in he got called for a foul. He must have been called for 10+ fouls himself. As I suggested last night, Tony was all over the ref and no doubt complaining too much. And teams are going to keep mugging him until that doesn't work anymore.
I'm not much for silver linings, but Barnes returned to action, albeit as a sub, and I thought looked good. They need his energy, competitiveness, and bite in the midfield and offensively. They aren't getting as much as they should out of the midfield in general, and I thought Carmona looked a little too passive, dropping very deep to start the offense just as content to play the ball back to the back line. The field conditions I'm sure had something to do with that, but the Lords need him to penetrate and make some plays. I'm sure they don't want to but I wonder about inverting Eudy and Carmona. One of the juniors really needs to step up in any case, and no clear-cut running partner for Amolo up top has emerged (although another frosh had close to an open net in the 80th minute but chose the wrong post for the shot which would have been enough on the day).
Lastly, the Lords exchanged one pressure for another. The #1 stuff is gone (and being undefeated) which I thought wore on them last year as we went down the stretch so that sort of is a silver lining. On the other hand, Kenyon now has a smaller margin for error. The goal is to earn a NCAA bid and give yourself a chance at a run, and with mostly likely 4 teams vying for 2 or at most 3 bids, Kenyon doesn't have much cushion left. Amazing how that works, as teams like Kenyon and Tufts now have some pressure on them to win the majority of their remaining showdowns.
We'll said NENCAC. I should have congratulated DePauw too to be more sportsmanlike. They did walk away with away with a W against an undefeated, ranked team on the road. Kudos.
As to your diehard partisan point, I may as well out myself as a Kenyon Lords fan here and now too, even though it may not be clear from my measly 8 or 9 posts. That said, I'm trying to be as ruthlessly honest about their play as I can be. Unlucky yesterday, perhaps. The solution was to score in regulation play. Unfortunately they didn't make it happen and DePaul capitalized on their opportunity. The rest is just noise. I hope to see the Lords shake it off quickly and double down their resolve and intensity. Wish they didn't have Wooster next week and that the pressure was going to remain higher going into the Oberlin and Denison games.
You are right--there's really no margin for error. Plus, the Case coach (former OWU player and 5yr asst coach to jay Martin) is now the regional NCAA rep and I'm guessing that his favorite team in the ncac is not the Lords.
TJed, can't stop laughing at your last line. And great to have another strong Lords supporter on board.
And I can't imagine the Case coach will be accommodating about re-scheduling (and in fairness, probably shouldn't be).
Congrats to my friends at Brandeis. THIS is a team that is determined and tough, and their confidence (well earned) must be sky high. They may get the #1 ranking, although I'd vote for Amherst just based on being unblemished.
Wasn't Chris Brown the regional representative for the Great Lakes for a number of the last few seasons?
And didn't OWU get in last year very questionably ahead of JCU?
I don't think that "biases" (as you may suggest) will play a role in it. If they did, OWU wouldn't have made the tournament last year.
It is too bad that the Case vs Kenyon game has not been rescheduled yet. I still think it was questionable to just cancel it. I'm curious why they didn't play it on 1 of their many training fields? It was a day game and the stadium field doesn't have lights so that shouldn't have been an issue. I imagine the training fields are in better condition than the game field.
NCAC, did you hear any more on this topic or if a re-scheduling has been discussed?
Chris Brown was the Great Lakes rep for the past few years.
Re JCU vs OWUin 2014, in the last regular season regional (Great Lakes) NSCAA ranking, OWU was ranked above JCU. JCU and OWU both lost conference tournament games to Heidelberg and Kenyon, respectively.
http://www.nscaa.com/rankings/3948/NCAADivisionIII/men/GreatLakes/Poll11
OWU also ranked more highly than JCU in the 2014 last regular season national NSCAA poll:
http://www.nscaa.com/rankings/3954/NCAADivisionIII/men/Poll11
Guessing that made the difference for OWU over JCU last year?
Quote from: Midwest Soccer on October 04, 2015, 01:04:37 PM
Wasn't Chris Brown the regional representative for the Great Lakes for a number of the last few seasons?
And didn't OWU get in last year very questionably ahead of JCU?
I don't think that "biases" (as you may suggest) will play a role in it. If they did, OWU wouldn't have made the tournament last year.
It is too bad that the Case vs Kenyon game has not been rescheduled yet. I still think it was questionable to just cancel it. I'm curious why they didn't play it on 1 of their many training fields? It was a day game and the stadium field doesn't have lights so that shouldn't have been an issue. I imagine the training fields are in better condition than the game field.
NCAC, did you hear any more on this topic or if a re-scheduling has been discussed?
Midwest, Brown couldn't have kept OWU out even if he wanted to. Martin is connected far beyond any clout Brown had. Plus, OWU as regular season winner with no losses deserved to be in. JCU also deserved a bid but not over OWU.
The situation could be different this year. Let's assume 4 NCAC teams are fighting for 3 bids which is not a guarantee by any stretch especially with Case, CMU and Thomas More very much in the mix. Kenyon could be in a position a very good DePauw team was 2 years ago IF the Lords drop points and/or lose to Oberlin, Wabash, or Denison, putting aside the OWU game. Let's say they draw or lose to OWU and drop another game and then lose semi-final NCAC game, which in this scenario almost certainly would be an away game. I think they would be out. So not much room for error. A bid can come down to 1-2 plays you didn't make. Best case scenario would be winning all remaining home games, Denison or OWU beating DPU, and then Kenyon beating OWU. I think they will pull through and barring anything fluky will be a handful for anyone in another month, but the DePauw loss hurts a lot.
I have no knowledge about the game with Case. I've looked at both of their schedules, and while both have midweek openings they don't have them at the same time. I don't see how they could play. Would be nice if Case could dump Waynesburg and play Kenyon that day.
All good points. I think you may be putting too much stock into "clout" that Martin has. I agree with you that they deserved to be in last year, but had they dropped a conference game, I doubt Martin would have had the power to get them in. Just cause he's been around forever and knows people doesn't mean he can call in a favor to get an undeserving team in.
Agree with the Waynesburg game and Case. Case vs Kenyon would be great.
The NCAC is looking pretty darn good right now. Like you said, these teams are all hoping TMC takes care of their AQ and either Case/Carnegie does the same. Denison still being undefeated is impressive, DePauw already taking down Oberlin and Kenyon has them in the best shape of all of them to take the crown in my opinion.
Midwest, I think CMU may be done. The draw with Westminster (PA) was not a good omen.
As for Martin I would never underestimate his clout with ADs, SIDs, committees, press releases and media folks, referees, etc. Phenomenal coach who apparently treats his players well, wins loyalty and has a deep alumni bench, and a master psychologist who knows how to drop a nugget or two strategically at just the right time. Given his legendary success I can't argue with any edges that come OWU's way.
A couple of results lost in the chaos....Haverford knocked off Gettysburg to keep the 'Fords alive, and Macalester stays unbeaten with a big win over St Olaf. Shaping up to be the Scots' best season in quite a few years.
You're not gonna believe this...Whitworth 1-1 in 2nd OT with George Fox (a college).
1-1 FINAL
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 04, 2015, 07:51:58 PM
A couple of results lost in the chaos....Haverford knocked off Gettysburg to keep the 'Fords alive, and Macalester stays unbeaten with a big win over St Olaf. Shaping up to be the Scots' best season in quite a few years.
I had been watching the Gettysburg scores closely. They're on my radar because a couple of close friends are alums and former G'burg athletes. Really surprising that the Bullets had such trouble with Hopkins and Haverford after a 7-0-1 start and the tie being Messiah. The early season games weren't that tough overall but I'd have given them the nod in both games. Massey definitely favored them strongly. Rest of the season is looking tough for the Bullets right now with F&M and Dickinson still to go... I had really high hopes for them but it's hard to be optimistic now about their NCAA run in 2015.
It really doesn't take much in a halfway decent conference to lose your bid...all teams on the bubble take notice!!
SUNYAC or NJAC will be taking a bid away from NESCAC. NJAC looks to be wide open this year.
I do recall stating over 4 losses for Tufts and over 3.5 losses for Messiah prior to the season. Both will need to earn the AQ to dance in November. Still, the start to Wheaton's season is the shocker...
Quote from: TennesseeJed on October 04, 2015, 09:37:54 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 04, 2015, 07:51:58 PM
A couple of results lost in the chaos....Haverford knocked off Gettysburg to keep the 'Fords alive, and Macalester stays unbeaten with a big win over St Olaf. Shaping up to be the Scots' best season in quite a few years.
I had been watching the Gettysburg scores closely. They're on my radar because a couple of close friends are alums and former G'burg athletes. Really surprising that the Bullets had such trouble with Hopkins and Haverford after a 7-0-1 start and the tie being Messiah. The early season games weren't that tough overall but I'd have given them the nod in both games. Massey definitely favored them strongly. Rest of the season is looking tough for the Bullets right now with F&M and Dickinson still to go... I had really high hopes for them but it's hard to be optimistic now about their NCAA run in 2015.
It really doesn't take much in a halfway decent conference to lose your bid...all teams on the bubble take notice!!
Some of those other teams also have tough games remaining. Haverford for example has this in their next 5:
Wed. 7 at Rutgers-Camden
Sat. 10 Dickinson *
Tue. 13 Catholic
Sat. 17 Muhlenberg *
Sat. 24 #2 Franklin & Marshall *
Keep in mind they have 2 more games after those 5. Could go 1-3-1 and their season would be over. They already have 3 losses. 2 more and they are probably done IMO. F&M could be a loss as well as Camden and Dickinson. I see them going 2-2-1 in this stretch but they need to go at least 2-1-2 to keep their hopes alive. Hopkins and Gettysburg are good wins and they are sitting at 4-0 in conference but they have the toughest slate ahead.
As for Gettysburg, they have been a surprise in my book this year. In their last 6 they have to face F&M and Dickinson then some other "easier" teams (still not easy games though). If they go 3-2-1 in their last 6 and end up 10-4-2 headed into conference I think they have a shot at a bid but it would depend on how they do in conference playoffs.
Time shall tell but the Centennial is a toss up and I still think they are only getting 2 bids even if F&M wins the league. There are too many other good teams this year across the country to snub this year. Last year we talked about 4 or 5 teams that got snubbed for Dickinson...that won't happen this year because then the committee will be snubbing 9-10 teams then.
Here is my top 5 poll (half prediction and half opinion/bias):
1. Amherst 8-0-0
2. Brandesis 9-1-0
3. F&M 10-0-0
4. CNU 8-0-3
5. Oneonta St. 8-2-1
I think 3 of the best teams in the country are in that top 5 (1,2,5) and the other 2 teams are there because of their record and historical performance (F&M and CNU). All 5 teams are good and deserve to be where they are at, but I do not think you will see F&M and CNU anywhere near the Final 4 come December.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 04, 2015, 09:59:46 PM
SUNYAC or NJAC will be taking a bid away from NESCAC. NJAC looks to be wide open this year.
I do recall stating over 4 losses for Tufts and over 3.5 losses for Messiah prior to the season. Both will need to earn the AQ to dance in November. Still, the start to Wheaton's season is the shocker...
Nescac still will get 3 teams to the NCAA's IMO...with a possibility of a 4th. Amherst and Midd should be locks at this point. Wesleyan and Conn are close and need to keep winning. As for Tufts, Bowdoin and Williams they need to win OUT and reach the Nescac Final. I do not think any of them will be able to do that.
http://herosports.com/conference-standings/d3-mens-soccer-conference-rankings/?utm_source=HERO+Master&utm_campaign=12daaf21c8-MSoc10.5.2015&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_25ee8a514c-12daaf21c8-83879837#
NCAC is in Rodney Dangerfield territory, no respect!
2014 Elite 8 Teams
Tufts (5-3-1) (2014: 16-2-4)
Wheaton (Ill.) (6-3-1) (2014: 22-4-0)
Oneonta State (8-2-1) (2014: 21-1-2)
Ohio Wesleyan (8-2-2) (2014: 17-5-4)
Messiah (6-3-1) (2014: 21-1-1)
Brandeis (9-1-0) (2014: 19-3-1)
Trinity (Texas) (9-2-0) (2014: 24-2-0)
Christopher Newport (8-0-3) (2014: 19-3-5)
2014: 159-21-17 (.850) - overall
2014: 133-16-12 (.863) - regualr season
2015: 59-16-9 (.756) - first 5 weeks
• Three teams with three losses already.
• Collectively already as many losses through 5 weeks as in the entire regular season & conf. playoffs last year,
• Collectively averaging 2 losses in first 5 weeks after average just 2.6 losses for the entire 2014 season incl. the NCAA tournament.
And you have these 2014 Sweet 16 teams also struggling:
Wartburg (8-3-1) (2014: 13-4-6)
Loras (6-3-1) (2014: 17-3-2)
Cortland State (6-3-2) (2014: 16-5-1)
Muhlenberg (3-5-1) (2014: 15-2-3)
Reminds me of when only one of the 2010 Final Four teams even made the tournament the next year, and two went on to have losing records. In fact, of the 2010 Elite 8 teams, only four made the 2011 tournament and only two managed to win a tournament game (of course, those two went to the final)
2010 Elite 8 Teams (2010 record / 2011 record)
Messiah (23-1-0 / 18-1-1) - one-and-done in NCAA's
Lynchburg (20-5-1 / 7-9-4) - missed NCAA's
UW-Oshkosh (20-1-3 / 10-6-2) - missed NCAA's
Bowdoin (15-2-4 / 4-7-3) - missed NCAA's
Ohio Wesleyan (19-2-2 / 23-2-0) - 2011 Champion
Calvin (16-3-5 / 19-6-2) - 2011 runner-up
Middlebury (16-4-1 / 8-4-4) - missed NCAA's
Merchant Marine (13-3-5 / 11-7-1) - one-and-done in NCAA's
2010: 142-21-21 (.829)
2011: 100-42-17 (.682)
So as bizarre as this season (2015) seems, it isn't on pace to be a bad as the 2011 season was.
HERO......................................MASSEY
1)Amherst...............................Amherst
2)MSU....................................F&M
3)Calvin..................................MA-Boston
4)Brandeis..............................MSU
5)Oneonta St...........................Oneonta St
6)Loras...................................Brandeis
7)Middlebury...........................Eastern
8)F&M....................................Kenyon
9)Wesleyan.............................Calvin
10)Messiah..............................Thomas More
11)Tufts..................................Rowan
12)Kenyon...............................Denison
13)Bowdoin.............................Wesleyan
14)Haverford...........................Middlebury
15)Stevens Tech......................Plattsburgh St
16)CNU...................................RPI
17)SLU...................................SLU
18)Rutgers-Camden.................Whitworth
19)Chicago..............................Haverford
20)Rutgers-Newark..................Postdam St
21)North Park.........................Skidmore
22)Dickinson...........................E-town
23)Wheaton (IL).....................Case Western
24)Wheaton (MA)....................Kean
25)Kean.................................DePauw
Sometime this week I'll post the side-by-side SOS of Massey and Hero ratings just for general info.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 05, 2015, 01:36:47 PM
http://herosports.com/conference-standings/d3-mens-soccer-conference-rankings/?utm_source=HERO+Master&utm_campaign=12daaf21c8-MSoc10.5.2015&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_25ee8a514c-12daaf21c8-83879837#
NCAC is in Rodney Dangerfield territory, no respect!
Just another example of how unreliable and unrealistic the Bennett rankings are, and why I don't really pay them any attention. The SAA ahead of the NCAC this year . . ., any year?!?!?!? Com' on! The MAC Commonwealth and Landmark as well?!? Just to cite the most ridiculous, as the NCAC could/should be much farther up. And someone should tell them that the WIAC doesn't exist anymore on the men's side. Calvin at #3, Wesleyan at #9, Messiah at #10, Bowdoin at #13, Haverford at #14, Rutgers-Newark at #20, etc... Really? I know some of you on here like to use and reference the Bennett rankings. I just don't see the point.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 05, 2015, 01:39:08 PM
2014 Elite 8 Teams
Tufts (5-3-1) (2014: 16-2-4)
Wheaton (Ill.) (6-3-1) (2014: 22-4-0)
Oneonta State (8-2-1) (2014: 21-1-2)
Ohio Wesleyan (8-2-2) (2014: 17-5-4)
Messiah (6-3-1) (2014: 21-1-1)
Brandeis (9-1-0) (2014: 19-3-1)
Trinity (Texas) (9-2-0) (2014: 24-2-0)
Christopher Newport (8-0-3) (2014: 19-3-5)
2014: 159-21-17 (.850) - overall
2014: 133-16-12 (.863) - regualr season
2015: 59-16-9 (.756) - first 5 weeks
• Three teams with three losses already.
• Collectively already as many losses through 5 weeks as in the entire regular season & conf. playoffs last year,
• Collectively averaging 2 losses in first 5 weeks after average just 2.6 losses for the entire 2014 season incl. the NCAA tournament.
And you have these 2014 Sweet 16 teams also struggling:
Wartburg (8-3-1) (2014: 13-4-6)
Loras (6-3-1) (2014: 17-3-2)
Cortland State (6-3-2) (2014: 16-5-1)
Muhlenberg (3-5-1) (2014: 15-2-3)
Reminds me of when only one of the 2010 Final Four teams even made the tournament the next year, and two went on to have losing records. In fact, of the 2010 Elite 8 teams, only four made the 2011 tournament and only two managed to win a tournament game (of course, those two went to the final)
2010 Elite 8 Teams (2010 record / 2011 record)
Messiah (23-1-0 / 18-1-1) - one-and-done in NCAA's
Lynchburg (20-5-1 / 7-9-4) - missed NCAA's
UW-Oshkosh (20-1-3 / 10-6-2) - missed NCAA's
Bowdoin (15-2-4 / 4-7-3) - missed NCAA's
Ohio Wesleyan (19-2-2 / 23-2-0) - 2011 Champion
Calvin (16-3-5 / 19-6-2) - 2011 runner-up
Middlebury (16-4-1 / 8-4-4) - missed NCAA's
Merchant Marine (13-3-5 / 11-7-1) - one-and-done in NCAA's
2010: 142-21-21 (.829)
2011: 100-42-17 (.682)
So as bizarre as this season (2015) seems, it isn't on pace to be a bad as the 2011 season was.
Great comparison and info! I still can't give +K yet but it's the thought that counts! ;D
2010 Bowdoin was a Final 4 team from Nescac and was 2 minutes away from getting into the Final but a last minute fluke goal from Lynchburg tied the game and then went on to beat them in OT...The next year Bowdoin graduated a bunch of key players but they had horrible GK'ing and ended up 4-7-3 and missed the 8 team Nescac tournament.
When comparing the regional rankings done by NSCAA to the D3Soccer Poll I find it interesting that teams who are ranked worse in the region are RV in the national poll over teams that are ranked higher than them in the region? Does that make any sense? Different committees and structure but it's just odd. For example, Eastern is 2nd in the Mid-Atlantic region and 19th in the D3 poll as to where Etown is 3rd in the region but 12th in the D3 poll? So messed up.
National poll
http://www.nscaa.com/rankings/4561 (http://www.nscaa.com/rankings/4561)
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 06, 2015, 11:43:42 AM
When comparing the regional rankings done by NSCAA to the D3Soccer Poll I find it interesting that teams who are ranked worse in the region are RV in the national poll over teams that are ranked higher than them in the region? Does that make any sense? Different committees and structure but it's just odd. For example, Eastern is 2nd in the Mid-Atlantic region and 19th in the D3 poll as to where Etown is 3rd in the region but 12th in the D3 poll? So messed up.
What's so odd and messed up about that? Do you think we'd have concensus on this message board about who is better, E-town or Eastern? Doubt it. So one set of voters gave the nod to Eastern another set of voters gave the nod to E-town. No biggie. Now, personally, I don't see E-town being anything more than a borderline Top 25 team right now, but then again with this crazy season that borderline is awfully wide. I think putting together a Top 25 that you would feel confident defending is as challenging and as close to impossible as it's ever been. But it's when a team is ranked Top 10 or so by D3soccer.com but only 5th regionally by NSCAA that you can start calling it odd and messed up. And that has happened. Probably does every season. Unfortunuately can't think of an example off the top of my head.
Sorry I should have clarified my statement more appropriatly. Usually IMO I lean to agree with D3soccer poll but this year I feel that the NSCAA has been getting it right more than D3 has been. There's a ton of variation between the 2. Usually things are a little more clearer but as we have said this season is far from usual. Being an Eastern grad I'm a little more bias toward them and the mid Atlantic region hence the name. ;D
And my example wasn't a good one with etown and eastern. A better one could be Lycoming at 4 in the region but not RV in d3 and Gettysburg 10 in the region but RV. That's a better example. Also Oneonta being 14th in d3 but only RV in nscaa. Just more flux than I anticipated that's all. Wasn't trying to hurt your feelings FW.
Quote from: Golden_Fan on October 06, 2015, 11:50:36 AM
National poll
http://www.nscaa.com/rankings/4561 (http://www.nscaa.com/rankings/4561)
So Kenyon drops 9 spots and RPI 1 spot?
I am still baffled at this Calvin ranking.
ho hum
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 06, 2015, 12:33:18 PM
Quote from: Golden_Fan on October 06, 2015, 11:50:36 AM
National poll
http://www.nscaa.com/rankings/4561 (http://www.nscaa.com/rankings/4561)
So Kenyon drops 9 spots and RPI 1 spot?
I am still baffled at this Calvin ranking.
ho hum
Yeah Kenyon shouldn't be behind RPI IMO. TMC is a little high for my liking too. Very good team but 7 is not right. I'd put them top 10-15
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 06, 2015, 12:22:52 PM
And my example wasn't a good one with etown and eastern. A better one could be Lycoming at 4 in the region but not RV in d3 and Gettysburg 10 in the region but RV. That's a better example. Also Oneonta being 14th in d3 but only RV in nscaa. Just more flux than I anticipated that's all. Wasn't trying to hurt your feelings FW.
No hurt feeling whatsoever, MAF. Gosh, no. And your clarification changes what I understood you to be saying significantly. And the Gettysburg example is more along the lines of what I was getting at as being the truly odd and messed up disparities between the two polls. Not sure I still find that just so odd, but odder. I mean looking at that more closely. Gettysburg only had 10 points in the D3soccer.com poll, so very, very little. What? Maybe a voter or two nationally that remembered their tie against Messiah but didn't see the box score and so they are more recognizable than some of the other Mid-Atlantic teams like Drew. Which Mid-Atlantic teams got votes in the D3Soccer.com poll? F&M (#1), E-town (#12), Eastern (#19), and Messiah (RV, 43 pts.), Gettysburg (RV, 10 pts.) and Drew (RV, 7 pts.). So, formulating a regional ranking off that (not really fair to the voters to do so, but just for this exercise), that has Gettysburg at #5. Often times, not always, theres little to separate teams 5 thru 10 in the region even for those of us more familiar with the teams, and all the more difficult for national voters, approx. 7/8ths not being from the Mid-Atlantic region. After the first several RV teams, the rest of the list is completely unreliable and the exact opposite of concensus and rather driven by a few odd few ballots.*
(* - in other words, assigning the rankings #26 thru #30 to the first five teams receiving votes should not be done much less further down the list. If voters had to fill out a 30-team ballot, teams #26 thru #30 could come out quite different than with 25-team ballots.)
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 06, 2015, 12:54:29 PM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 06, 2015, 12:22:52 PM
And my example wasn't a good one with etown and eastern. A better one could be Lycoming at 4 in the region but not RV in d3 and Gettysburg 10 in the region but RV. That's a better example. Also Oneonta being 14th in d3 but only RV in nscaa. Just more flux than I anticipated that's all. Wasn't trying to hurt your feelings FW.
No hurt feeling whatsoever, MAF. Gosh, no. And your clarification changes what I understood you to be saying significantly. And the Gettysburg example is more along the lines of what I was getting at as being the truly odd and messed up disparities between the two polls. Not sure I still find that just so odd, but odder. I mean looking at that more closely. Gettysburg only had 10 points in the D3soccer.com poll, so very, very little. What? Maybe a voter or two nationally that remembered their tie against Messiah but didn't see the box score and so they are more recognizable than some of the other Mid-Atlantic teams like Drew. Which Mid-Atlantic teams got votes in the D3Soccer.com poll? F&M (#1), E-town (#12), Eastern (#19), and Messiah (RV, 43 pts.), Gettysburg (RV, 10 pts.) and Drew (RV, 7 pts.). So, formulating a regional ranking off that (not really fair to the voters to do so, but just for this exercise), that has Gettysburg at #5. Often times, not always, theres little to separate teams 5 thru 10 in the region even for those of us more familiar with the teams, and all the more difficult for national voters, approx. 7/8ths not being from the Mid-Atlantic region. After the first several RV teams, the rest of the list is completely unreliable and the exact opposite of concensus and rather driven by a few odd few ballots.*
(* - in other words, assigning the rankings #26 thru #30 to the first five teams receiving votes should not be done much less further down the list. If voters had to fill out a 30-team ballot, teams #26 thru #30 could come out quite different than with 25-team ballots.)
Yes that makes sense. It's nice having 2 polls to compare and criticize ;D Only if we here on the message the boards could combine the 2 and make a third of our own...that would be a good poll!
Quick question, are the first rounds of regional rankings that matter coming out next week or the week following?
Here would be my top 25 poll for this week:
1. Amherst 8-0-0
2. Brandesis 9-1-0
3. F&M 10-0-0
4. CNU 8-0-3
5. MSU 11-1-0
6. Kenyon 8-1-0
7. Whitworth 9-0-1
8. Calvin 10-0-1
9. Oneonta St. 8-2-1
10. U-WW 11-2-0
11. Eastern 10-0-1
12. TMC 9-1-1
13. Trinity(Tx) 8-2-0
14. RPI 8-1-2
15. ECSU 9-1-1
16. CMU 7-2-1
17. Camden 8-2-1
18. Platts. St 10-1-2
19. St. Lawr. 8-2-2
20. Denison 9-0-1
21. Case West. 9-1-0
22. Loras 6-3-1
23. Tufts 5-3-1
24. Kean 11-1-0
25. UMass-Bo. 9-0-0
RV: UW-Oshkosh, St. Scholastica, Lycoming, Texas-Dallas, Colorado Coll.
*So I leave out DePauw, Etown, Wash. Coll., and North Park from the 2 polls combined*
Having watched CNU twice, I'd have them around the 12-14 range.
1. Amherst
2. Brandeis
3. Oneonta St
4. MSU
5. Kenyon
6. F&M
7. Loras
8. TMC
9. RPI
10. Whitworth
-------------------------------------------------------
11-20: This is a group that I feel could make a run toward Elite 8 - Final 4:
Trinity, SLU, Denison, UWW, Rutgers-Camden, Loras, Messiah, Middlebury, DePauw, CNU.
---------------------------------------------------------
21. Eastern
22. Plattsburgh St
23. Haverford
24. Case Western
25. ECSU
RV: Tufts, Wheaton (IL), Rowan, Lyco, MA-Boston
Quote from: Wisco21 on October 06, 2015, 01:30:40 PM
Quick question, are the first rounds of regional rankings that matter coming out next week or the week following?
I Believe Oct 21st Wednesday is the 1st poll that matters
Right, you are.
The Pre-Cahmpionships Manual: http://www.d3soccer.com/ncaa-publications/2015/2015-NCAA-Division-III-Soccer_Pre-Championships-Manual.pdf
Page 18.
QuoteMen's Soccer Regional Ranking
The men's soccer committee will release regional rankings on the following dates:
● Wednesday, Oct. 21
● Wednesday, Oct. 28
● Wednesday, Nov. 4
The committee will rank the top 15 percent of eligible teams in each region (or a minimum of four teams, whichever is
greater) by applying the championships selection criteria. Based on 2015 sponsorship reports, the following number of
teams will be ranked in each region:
Central Region – 6
East Region – 7
Great Lakes Region – 8
Mid-Atlantic Region – 8
New England Region – 12
North Region – 7
South Atlantic Region – 8
West Region – 5
Women's Soccer Regional Rankings
The women's soccer committee will release regional rankings on the following dates:
● Wednesday, Oct. 21
● Wednesday, Oct. 28
● Wednesday, Nov. 4
The committee will rank the top 15 percent of eligible teams in each region (or a minimum of four teams, whichever is
greater) by applying the championships selection criteria. Based on 2015 sponsorship reports, the following number of
teams will be ranked in each region:
Central Region – 6
East Region – 7
Great Lakes Region – 8
Mid-Atlantic Region – 9
New England Region – 12
North Region – 8
South Atlantic Region – 9
West Region – 6
As seen in the South Atlantic Region forum:
The NCAA Regional Rankings will be released October 22. Plenty of matchups beforehand that could certainly shift the placement of teams. According to the Pre-Championship Manual, only 7 schools will be ranked. I would expect the NJAC to be highly featured with the start to the season thus far.
1. MSU 11-1-0 (RvR: 2-1; Ws - Haverford, Stockton. L - Oneonta St).
2. RUC 8-2-1 (RvR: 2-1-1; Ws - Cabrini, Rowan. L - Salisbury. T - CNU).
3. CNU 8-0-3 (RvR: 0-0-2; T - RUC, *Lynchburg)
4. Rowan 9-2-0 (RvR: 2-2; Ws - Messiah, RUN, Ls - SLU, RUC)
5. Salisbury 6-3-0 (RvR: 2-1; Ws - RUC, MM, Ls - Eastern)
6. Stockton 8-3-0 (RvR: 0-3-0; L - RPI, MSU, Haverford)
7. TCNJ 6-3-2 (RvR: Ws - Stevens Tech, Drew; Ls - RUN, Kean, Stockton
7. Lynchburg 6-1-2 (RvR: 0-0-1; T - CNU)
7. RUN 9-3-0 (RvR: 2-3*; Ws- TCNJ, Cortland St; Ls - MM, UR, Rowan)
7. Kean 12-1-0 (RvR: 2-0*; RUC, TCNJ if they get ranked)
7. Maryville 9-1-1 (RvR: 0-1-0; L - MSU)
--------------------------------------------------------------
Pretty clear for the top 5 with about 6-7 teams bunched together fighting for the final 2 spots.
Rutgers-Newark vs a bunch of bubble regional ranked teams: Merchant Marine, Rochester, Cortland St, JHU, Rowan, TCNJ. For that reason I would believe they will be anywhere from 5 to unranked.
TCNJ has beaten strong teams in other regions, SIT 2-1 and Drew 3-1, but were beaten by Kean and Stockton 4-1 and 3-1, respectively.
Maryville still has NCW, Greensboro, and underachieving Covenant remaining. Given there minimal chances at RvR, they cannot afford any blemishes and must win the USA South AQ.
I will take a look at the Mid-Atlantic and give my projections for the 8 teams with a few bubble spots.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 06, 2015, 02:14:23 PM
As seen in the South Atlantic Region forum:
The NCAA Regional Rankings will be released October 22. Plenty of matchups beforehand that could certainly shift the placement of teams. According to the Pre-Championship Manual, only 7 schools will be ranked. I would expect the NJAC to be highly featured with the start to the season thus far.
1. MSU 11-1-0 (RvR: 2-1; Ws - Haverford, Stockton. L - Oneonta St).
2. RUC 8-2-1 (RvR: 2-1-1; Ws - Cabrini, Rowan. L - Salisbury. T - CNU).
3. CNU 8-0-3 (RvR: 0-0-2; T - RUC, *Lynchburg)
4. Rowan 9-2-0 (RvR: 2-2; Ws - Messiah, RUN, Ls - SLU, RUC)
5. Salisbury 6-3-0 (RvR: 2-1; Ws - RUC, MM, Ls - Eastern)
6. Stockton 8-3-0 (RvR: 0-3-0; L - RPI, MSU, Haverford)
7. TCNJ 6-3-2 (RvR: Ws - Stevens Tech, Drew; Ls - RUN, Kean, Stockton
7. Lynchburg 6-1-2 (RvR: 0-0-1; T - CNU)
7. RUN 9-3-0 (RvR: 2-3*; Ws- TCNJ, Cortland St; Ls - MM, UR, Rowan)
7. Kean 12-1-0 (RvR: 2-0*; RUC, TCNJ if they get ranked)
7. Maryville 9-1-1 (RvR: 0-1-0; L - MSU)
--------------------------------------------------------------
Pretty clear for the top 5 with about 6-7 teams bunched together fighting for the final 2 spots.
Rutgers-Newark vs a bunch of bubble regional ranked teams: Merchant Marine, Rochester, Cortland St, JHU, Rowan, TCNJ. For that reason I would believe they will be anywhere from 5 to unranked.
TCNJ has beaten strong teams in other regions, SIT 2-1 and Drew 3-1, but were beaten by Kean and Stockton 4-1 and 3-1, respectively.
Maryville still has NCW, Greensboro, and underachieving Covenant remaining. Given there minimal chances at RvR, they cannot afford any blemishes and must win the USA South AQ.
I will take a look at the Mid-Atlantic and give my projections for the 8 teams with a few bubble spots.
Yes would appreciate a prediction for mid-atlantic region...and what do you mean by these rankings are the ones that count? Can you guys elaborate please and explain this. Still new to the selection process/criteria stuff. Thanks!
1 Franklin & Marshall College 10-0-0 (RvR 1-0-0) JHU, Haverford, Dickinson, Gettysburg remaining
2 Eastern University 10-0-1 (RvR 2-0-0) Miseri and King's left. Capable of running the table with remaining schedule.
3 Elizabethtown College 9-1-1 (RvR 1-1) Susqu, Merchant Marine, and Drew remaining.
4 Lycoming College 8-1-1 (RvR 0-1-1)* W vs Geneva if they get ranked. Arcadia, Messiah, Alvernia, Oneonta St remaining. AQ is necessary or solid finish.
5 Drew University 8-1-2 (RvR 0-0-0)* L to TCNJ if they get ranked. Merchant Marine and E-town on schedule for chance to improve.
6 Cabrini College 6-1-2 (RvR 0-1-0) No other strong games remaining, expect them to with the AQ.
7 Dickinson College 6-2-2 (RvR 0-1-0) F&M, Miseri, Haverford remaining
8 Haverford College 7-3-0 (RvR 1-3-0) RUC, Dickinson, F&M remaining on schedule for chance to improve
------------------------------------------------------
9 Messiah 7-3-1
10 Gettysburg College 7-2-1
11 Alvernia
12 Merchant Marine
13 Kings
The Rankings I projected for the South Atlantic factored in OWP + Win % + Record vs Ranked. It is, however, missing a bigger piece to the puzzle without the OOWP.
Just from an eyeball test, the NSCAA seems to be close to what the NCAA Regional Rankings might look like.
OWP
0.621 Haverford
0.607 JHU
0.607 Messiah
0.603 Alvernia
0.527 Dickinson
0.526 Merchant Marine
0.522 F&M
0.505 Lycoming
0.495 E-town
0.479 Eastern
0.475 Drew
0.432 King's
0.424 Gettysburg
0.384 Cabrini
---------------------------------
WP %
1.000 F&M
0.954 Eastern
0.863 E-town
0.850 Lycoming
0.818 Drew
0.818 King's
0.777 Cabrini
0.750 Gettysburg
0.727 Merchant Marine
0.700 Haverford
0.700 Dickinson
0.650 Messiah
0.636 JHU
0.636 Alvernia
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 06, 2015, 12:33:18 PM
Quote from: Golden_Fan on October 06, 2015, 11:50:36 AM
National poll
http://www.nscaa.com/rankings/4561 (http://www.nscaa.com/rankings/4561)
So Kenyon drops 9 spots and RPI 1 spot?
I am still baffled at this Calvin ranking.
ho hum
Can only think Calvin's ranking may be due to all those clean sheets - but not exactly playing a strong out of conference schedule. TMC challenged themselves with a tough schedule (perhaps knowing their conference is weak) and is deserving of their ranking. We'll see what happens with CWRU this week - their schedule favors them with many of the tougher matches at home.
Denison keeps chugging along. I would say they are the best team I've seen in person this year. By team I mean that group of guys where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. There are far more talented sides, containing far more talented individuals, that will go further in the postseason than they will, but this "team" consistently gets the most out of each player, each game. I still don't know how they are doing it but I have backed away from my theory that Siegfried & Roy are helping them . . .
And a shout-out to midwest punching bag Waynesburg State, scoring their 3rd goal of the season and getting their first result in a 1-1 draw vs Bethany.
NSCAA NCAA Division III Men - National - Poll 4 - October 6, 2015
Rank School Prev. W-L-T
1 Franklin & Marshall College 2 10-0-0
2 Amherst College 4 8-0-0
3 Whitworth University 5 9-0-1
4 Calvin College 6 9-0-1
5 Montclair State University 10 11-1-0
6 Brandeis University 8 9-1-0
7 Thomas More College 15 9-1-1
8 Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute 7 8-1-2
9 Kenyon College 1 8-1-0
10 Christopher Newport University 3 8-0-3
11 University of Wisconsin-Whitewtr 11 11-2-0
12 Eastern University 17 10-0-1
13 University of Texas-Dallas 13 9-1-1
14 Plattsburgh State University 23 10-1-2
15 North Park University RV 9-2-0
16 Case Western Reserve University 18 9-1-0
17 Washington University (Mo.) 14 6-1-3
18 Colorado College 21 8-1-2
19 Loras College 9 7-3-1
20 Kean University NR 12-1-0
21 Elizabethtown College RV 9-1-1
22 College Of St. Scholastica 25 10-1-0
23 University Of Mass-Boston RV 9-0-0
24 St. Lawrence University 16 8-2-2
25 Denison University 24 9-0-1
Also receiving votes: University Of Wisconsin-Oshkosh (11), Rutgers University-Camden (9), Lycoming College (5), Milwaukee School of Engineering (4), SUNY Oneonta (2), University Of Chicago (1), DePauw University (1)
October 6, 2015
D3soccer.com Men's Top 25, Week 5
Through games of Sunday, October 4, 2015
# School (1st Pl. Votes) Record Pts. Prev.
1 Franklin & Marshall (13) 10-0-0 969 2
2 Amherst (5) 8-0-0 923 5
3 Brandeis (3) 9-1-0 918 3
4 Kenyon (2) 8-1-0 841 1
5 Montclair State 11-1-0 791 10
6 Christopher Newport 8-0-3 774 4
7 Whitworth 9-0-0 717 8
8 Calvin 10-0-1 699 12
9 Denison 9-0-1 666 13
10 Trinity (Texas) 8-2-0 567 15
11 UW-Whitewater 11-2-0 540 11
12 Elizabethtown 9-1-1 523 19
13 Carnegie Mellon 7-2-1 502 7
14 Oneonta State 8-2-1 466 21
15 Eastern Connecticut 9-1-1 452 18
16 RPI 8-1-2 346 9
17 Thomas More 9-1-1 343 24
18 Rutgers-Camden 8-2-1 254 17
19 Eastern 10-0-1 235 —
20 Plattsburgh State 9-1-2 230 23
21 St. Lawrence 8-2-2 208 14
22 Loras 6-3-1 203 16
23 Kean 11-1-0 188 —
24 DePauw 7-1-2 183 —
25 Tufts 5-3-1 169 6
Dropped out: No. 20 Salisbury, No. 22 Messiah, No. 25 Rowan
Receiving Votes: Mass-Boston 157, UW-Oshkosh 151, Texas-Dallas 120, Case Western Reserve 98, Rowan 70, Middlebury 47, Messiah 43, Colorado College 26, Ohio Wesleyan 19, MIT 16, Wesleyan 16, Salisbury 14, Stevens 12, Gettysburg 10, North Park 10, Macalester 9, St. Scholastica 7, Drew 7, Keuka 5, Endicott 3, Wheaton (Ill.) 3, Maryville (Tenn.) 2
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 06, 2015, 12:33:18 PM
Quote from: Golden_Fan on October 06, 2015, 11:50:36 AM
National poll
http://www.nscaa.com/rankings/4561 (http://www.nscaa.com/rankings/4561)
So Kenyon drops 9 spots and RPI 1 spot?
I am still baffled at this Calvin ranking.
ho hum
The RPI stickiness in the NSCAA poll doesn't make much sense to me either, after last 3 games. D3 poll had a much bigger drop week to week, even w/ them starting lower in rank on D3 relative to NSCAA (9 vs. 7) last week. Calvin's record is great, but their schedule doesn't seem that challenging to me this year...I don't know the teams in their schedule as well as some others, but Endicott and Kalamazoo seem to be their toughest games?
Re: Kenyon, I think that the average of 4 and 9 (D3/NSCAA ranks, resp.) in the 6 +/- range feels about right. Some big games coming up for the Lords (this weekend not included...wish we could change the order...) over next few weeks, so hope they're getting fired up!
I think Tufts rating is a bit of an overreaction right now personally...I definitely don't think they should be out of top 25 from an ability standpoint, but they do have their work cut out for them in the NESCAC...
From: http://www.ncaa.com/stats/soccer-men/d3
Team Goals Against Average »
Through games of October 5, 2015
Rank Team GAA
1 Amherst .23
2 Calvin .27
3 Whitworth .29
4 St. Lawrence .32
5 MIT .32
6 Rensselaer .35
- Occidental .35
8 Wis.-Oshkosh .35
9 Castleton .35
10 Endicott .36
11 Middlebury .36
12 UMass Boston .39
13 Frank. & Marsh. .39
14 Bowdoin .39
15 Springfield .40
16 Texas-Dallas .41
17 Union (NY) .42
18 Eastern .45
19 Trinity (TX) .45
20 Brockport .47
Scoring Offense »
Through games of October 5, 2015
Rank Team Per Game
1 St. Scholastica 4.82
2 Westminster (MO) 4.11
3 Kean 4.08
4 Norwich 4.00
- MIT 4.00
- Maryville (TN) 4.00
- Montclair St. 4.00
8 Knox 3.92
9 Finlandia 3.75
10 Rowan 3.45
11 Carnegie Mellon 3.40
12 Hood 3.33
13 Calvin 3.27
14 St. Mary's (MD) 3.20
- Alfred 3.20
16 Lake Forest 3.18
17 Curry 3.17
18 Middlebury 3.13
19 UMass Boston 3.10
- St. Joseph's (ME) 3.10
Only Calvin, Middlebury, UMBoston, MIT and Montclair St in both groups above
Quote from: Domino1195 on October 06, 2015, 02:42:46 PM
Can only think Calvin's ranking may be due to all those clean sheets - but not exactly playing a strong out of conference schedule. TMC challenged themselves with a tough schedule (perhaps knowing their conference is weak) and is deserving of their ranking. We'll see what happens with CWRU this week - their schedule favors them with many of the tougher matches at home.
Agree completely.
Quote from: Domino1195 on October 06, 2015, 02:42:46 PM
Denison keeps chugging along. I would say they are the best team I've seen in person this year. By team I mean that group of guys where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. There are far more talented sides, containing far more talented individuals, that will go further in the postseason than they will, but this "team" consistently gets the most out of each player, each game. I still don't know how they are doing it but I have backed away from my theory that Siegfried & Roy are helping them . . .
Saw them play last year but not this year. They were 4-5-1 last year at the same time in 2014...very different team, or at least very different results. The W vs TMC and the draw w/ OWU were legit this season. Losses to TMC and JCU last year by now. Hoping to see the Lords put a dent in their fantastic YTD 2015 record when they meet on 10/18, but they've held up great so far this year. Lucky for the Big Red that OWU is behind them and that they played OWU while some starters were injured. Honestly, a W, given OWU's condition would have been a stronger showing, given their current ranking and the fact that OWU had at least one starter on the bench. I think they'd have had a tougher time later in the season, but they avoided an L and it definitely helps their NCAC conference standings with the tough competition this year.
Quote from: Domino1195 on October 06, 2015, 02:42:46 PM
And a shout-out to midwest punching bag Waynesburg State, scoring their 3rd goal of the season and getting their first result in a 1-1 draw vs Bethany.
+1.... really tough way to go through a season... :-\
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 06, 2015, 02:20:24 PM...and what do you mean by these rankings are the ones that count? Can you guys elaborate please and explain this. Still new to the selection process/criteria stuff. Thanks!
Read this: http://www.d3soccer.com/columns/christan-shirk/2014/ncaa-regional-rankings-coming-next-week
The at-large selections have absolutely nothing to do with the NSCAA Regional or National polls or the D3soccer.com Top 25. They are based on criteria applied by the NCAA selection committee. That same comittee applying the same criteria does regional rankings the final three weeks prior to the NCAA tournament which by design foreshadow the at-large selections. So, these rankings (meaning the NCAA regional rankings) are the ones that count, the ones that tell us how the at-large selection committee itself rates the teams.
Related reading material:
http://www.d3soccer.com/rankings/2014/about
http://www.d3soccer.com/columns/christan-shirk/2014/AQs-PoolB-PoolC-explained
http://www.d3soccer.com/columns/christan-shirk/2014/at-large-analysis-and-predictions
Is this as of 10/6/2015 or their remaining schedule as well?
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 06, 2015, 02:34:17 PM
The Rankings I projected for the South Atlantic factored in OWP + Win % + Record vs Ranked. It is, however, missing a bigger piece to the puzzle without the OOWP.
Just from an eyeball test, the NSCAA seems to be close to what the NCAA Regional Rankings might look like.
OWP
0.621 Haverford
0.607 JHU
0.607 Messiah
0.603 Alvernia
0.527 Dickinson
0.526 Merchant Marine
0.522 F&M
0.505 Lycoming
0.495 E-town
0.479 Eastern
0.475 Drew
0.432 King's
0.424 Gettysburg
0.384 Cabrini
---------------------------------
WP %
1.000 F&M
0.954 Eastern
0.863 E-town
0.850 Lycoming
0.818 Drew
0.818 King's
0.777 Cabrini
0.750 Gettysburg
0.727 Merchant Marine
0.700 Haverford
0.700 Dickinson
0.650 Messiah
0.636 JHU
0.636 Alvernia
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 06, 2015, 03:28:03 PM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 06, 2015, 02:20:24 PM...and what do you mean by these rankings are the ones that count? Can you guys elaborate please and explain this. Still new to the selection process/criteria stuff. Thanks!
Read this: http://www.d3soccer.com/columns/christan-shirk/2014/ncaa-regional-rankings-coming-next-week
The at-large selections have absolutely nothing to do with the NSCAA Regional or National polls or the D3soccer.com Top 25. They are based on criteria applied by the NCAA selection committee. That same comittee applying the same criteria does regional rankings the final three weeks prior to the NCAA tournament which by design foreshadow the at-large selections. So, these rankings (meaning the NCAA regional rankings) are the ones that count, the ones that tell us how the at-large selection committee itself rates the teams.
Related reading material:
http://www.d3soccer.com/rankings/2014/about
http://www.d3soccer.com/columns/christan-shirk/2014/AQs-PoolB-PoolC-explained
http://www.d3soccer.com/columns/christan-shirk/2014/at-large-analysis-and-predictions
Great thanks! I did browse some of the pages after page 18. So the NSCAA is different from the NCAA regional rankings? Different committee? Am I correct in that? So we want to really focus on the NCAA regional rankings which are different from the NSCAA regional rankings. When do the NCAA regional rankings come out?
Thanks again for you insight FW!!
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 06, 2015, 03:45:10 PMGreat thanks! I did browse some of the pages after page 18. So the NSCAA is different from the NCAA regional rankings? Different committee? Am I correct in that? So we want to really focus on the NCAA regional rankings which are different from the NSCAA regional rankings. When do the NCAA regional rankings come out?
Yes, the NSCAA is not the NCAA, the NCAA is not the NSCAA.
Yes, the focus when discussing at-large berth prospects is the NCAA regional rankings.
When? Re-read the first post on this page (http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=8294.msg1686582#msg1686582).
Thanks FW!!!
Quote from: backyarddawg on October 06, 2015, 03:33:08 PM
Is this as of 10/6/2015 or their remaining schedule as well?
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 06, 2015, 02:34:17 PM
The Rankings I projected for the South Atlantic factored in OWP + Win % + Record vs Ranked. It is, however, missing a bigger piece to the puzzle without the OOWP.
Just from an eyeball test, the NSCAA seems to be close to what the NCAA Regional Rankings might look like.
OWP
0.621 Haverford
0.607 JHU
0.607 Messiah
0.603 Alvernia
0.527 Dickinson
0.526 Merchant Marine
0.522 F&M
0.505 Lycoming
0.495 E-town
0.479 Eastern
0.475 Drew
0.432 King's
0.424 Gettysburg
0.384 Cabrini
---------------------------------
WP %
1.000 F&M
0.954 Eastern
0.863 E-town
0.850 Lycoming
0.818 Drew
0.818 King's
0.777 Cabrini
0.750 Gettysburg
0.727 Merchant Marine
0.700 Haverford
0.700 Dickinson
0.650 Messiah
0.636 JHU
0.636 Alvernia
I only calculated games so far, plus the next game out. I guess I should have just done it until Oct 18th, but I'm not that proactive. Most of these OWP will increase as they begin to play stronger teams in conference.
Also, these are obviously UNOFFICIAL. I pulled the data from Massey Ratings. There may be a few unrecorded results within the parameters of the calculations.
http://www.d3soccer.com/columns/christan-shirk/2015/Year-Nine
I think we should all give a shout out to Jim Matson and Christian Shirk for providing an excellent place for Division III soccer fans to talk, blog, read interesting articles, and for the fun rankings and other statistics that they provide!!
Thanks guys for all your efforts,
BTW over at D3 hoopsl Pat Coleman, Gordon Mann and Dave McHugh conducted a fund raising drive that I think proved relatively successful, providing much needed fund to maintain the site. I am sure the D3 soccer family would be just as supportive!
Domino's post today on Denison triggered a vague memory that the Big Red went on a preseason overseas trip. I checked, and they did indeed go to the Netherlands in August.
I'm curious if posters have anecdotal evidence of teams doing particularly well in seasons preceded by an overseas trip. In recent years I recall Brandeis, OWU, and Rochester going on trips. I don't know why any relatively strong program wouldn't take advantage of the rule allowing these trips (once every 4 years, correct?), and I know Kenyon is such a school that has not had an overseas experience (at least not in the last 4-5 years).
Two things that would seem to benefit good teams (i.e. teams that have expectations of "being in the mix") are 1) an early season trip out of region to play at least one really good team or at least two decent teams; and 2) an overseas training/team bonding experience. One can wonder if Brandeis benefited from their trip out to Texas given their current impressive standing nationally.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 06, 2015, 06:15:55 PM
Domino's post today on Denison triggered a vague memory that the Big Red went on a preseason overseas trip. I checked, and they did indeed go to the Netherlands in August.
I'm curious if posters have anecdotal evidence of teams doing particularly well in seasons preceded by an overseas trip. In recent years I recall Brandeis, OWU, and Rochester going on trips. I don't know why any relatively strong program wouldn't take advantage of the rule allowing these trips (once every 4 years, correct?), and I know Kenyon is such a school that has not had an overseas experience (at least not in the last 4-5 years).
Two things that would seem to benefit good teams (i.e. teams that have expectations of "being in the mix") are 1) an early season trip out of region to play at least one really good team or at least two decent teams; and 2) an overseas training/team bonding experience. One can wonder if Brandeis benefited from their trip out to Texas given their current impressive standing nationally.
Eastern Connecticut traveled to Costa Rica this year and last year.
That would be absolutely ILLEGAL if ECSU DID do that
And while I noted the Brandeis trip to Texas I don't how I forgot the UMass-Boston trip to the Pacific NW.
LVC up 1-0 at Messiah. Halftime
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 06, 2015, 06:54:23 PM
That would be absolutely ILLEGAL if ECSU DID do that
It was well publicized on Eastern's men's soccer athletic page!!
Edit
Maybe last time was 2012, time flies when your having fun ;)
Anyone wanting a little bonus late night action might want to check out GAC at Macalester in beautiful St Paul, MN. GAC up 1-0 near end of 1st half. A lot of bright yellow and orange on the field. Decent video with commentary.
Messiah comes back to win 4-2 after being down 2-0...yikes.
ANother GK Horror show
Brandeis and MIT battle to a 0-0 draw. MIT would've been happier with a point before kickoff, but Brandeis, despite its ranking, etc. would have been happier with the 0-0 result as MIT were unlucky to not come away with a win.
Judges started the better of the two teams, testing the MIT GK with a header through Picard. But from about the 60th minute on, MIT's midfield dominated. Absolutely shredded the Brandeis mids to pieces. They were first to every ball, were incisive with their passing, and with Bingham dropping in looked far more threatening. Judges had a couple of chances here and there, but MIT had the better ones - hitting the bar with about 10 mins left and Bingham, I think it was, fluffing his lines with a left-footer from 12 yards out when it looked easier to score. The overtime periods were pretty even but MIT looked slightly more threatening.
I've never seen the Judges' midfield get dominated like they did tonight. They were better for the first 30 but from 30 mins on, and particularly after the 60th minute, MIT was far superior. Furthermore, Brandeis' flanks were under constant siege. I perhaps underrated MIT before but if they can keep this for up they could well challenge WPI. Their Halloween clash will be a barn burner. As for Brandeis, they need to be much better against Case than they were in this match.
Quote from: blooter442 on October 06, 2015, 09:53:20 PM
Brandeis and MIT battle to a 0-0 draw. MIT would've been happier with a point before kickoff, but Brandeis, despite its ranking, etc. would have been happier with the 0-0 result as MIT were unlucky to not come away with a win.
Judges started the better of the two teams, testing the MIT GK with a header through Picard. But from about the 60th minute on, MIT's midfield dominated. Absolutely shredded the Brandeis mids to pieces. They were first to every ball, were incisive with their passing, and with Bingham dropping in looked far more threatening. Judges had a couple of chances here and there, but MIT had the better ones - hitting the bar with about 10 mins left and Bingham, I think it was, fluffing his lines with a left-footer from 12 yards out when it looked easier to score. The overtime periods were pretty even but MIT looked slightly more threatening.
I've never seen the Judges' midfield get dominated like they did tonight. They were better for the first 30 but from 30 mins on, and particularly after the 60th minute, MIT was far superior. Furthermore, Brandeis' flanks were under constant siege. I perhaps underrated MIT before but if they can keep this for up they could well challenge WPI. Their Halloween clash will be a barn burner. As for Brandeis, they need to be much better against Case than they were in this match.
Interesting to compare your perspective with Mr. Right on the UAA thread. Haven't seen MIT play this year but I've known and watched a few of their current players on club teams and local HS teams for years. They have some talented players for sure. Wish I had seen this one live! Still, I wouldn't have expected them to dominate as strongly as you both said, given their respective season to date performances. Engineers schedule hasn't been nearly as tough as Brandeis.
Thanks for the great report.
Cheers, TennesseeJed. Perhaps as a Brandeis supporter I've been spoiled - the last time the Judges failed to win at home was November 1st, 2013, a 0-0 draw with WashU in a game in which, had they lost, probably would have resulted in failing to make the NCAAs. They almost lost that game and almost lost this game, so just goes to show that a 0-0 at home in a game against good opposition where you were second-best isn't the worst thing.
Macalester a strange 6-0-5 after drawing with GAC. Impressive stretch of 2-0-1 against Luther, St Olaf, and GAC.
Messiah has given up 3 goals in the first 2 conference games of the year...the Falcons only gave up 2 goals in all of conference play last season which includes conference playoffs.....
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 06, 2015, 06:15:55 PM
Domino's post today on Denison triggered a vague memory that the Big Red went on a preseason overseas trip. I checked, and they did indeed go to the Netherlands in August.
I'm curious if posters have anecdotal evidence of teams doing particularly well in seasons preceded by an overseas trip. In recent years I recall Brandeis, OWU, and Rochester going on trips. I don't know why any relatively strong program wouldn't take advantage of the rule allowing these trips (once every 4 years, correct?), and I know Kenyon is such a school that has not had an overseas experience (at least not in the last 4-5 years).
Two things that would seem to benefit good teams (i.e. teams that have expectations of "being in the mix") are 1) an early season trip out of region to play at least one really good team or at least two decent teams; and 2) an overseas training/team bonding experience. One can wonder if Brandeis benefited from their trip out to Texas given their current impressive standing nationally.
I got to see Denison in the spring - versus Ohio Dominican, Capital and University of Northern Ohio (NAIA team that goes to the final 8 often - not a single American on their squad this season I believe). Denison was the least effective on that day - could have been missing players,etc. But this season they start 2 freshman versus the team we saw in the spring - is that the improvement that puts them inthe top 25? I think not. Maybe it was the bonding experience of going away in August: whatever it is they are all pulling in the same direction.
Interesting commentary about Chelsea last weekend - how dysfunctional they are this season, yet most of the players are the same as last year. Allusions to problems in the locker room, etc. But whatever it is they are - they are not functioning like a team.
Sometimes losing one or two seniors can impact a team beyond what statistics measure. On field leadership, the field general, organizer, cheer leader - these things don't show in boxscores except for the drastic change in results from one season to the next. I think OWU went through that at the beginning of last year; new leadership emerged and they went about business as usual.
Maybe some of the teams some think are under-performing are suffering from similar intangibles that impact a teams performance. For those who watch teams like Messiah and Wheaton: was there a leadership change - if so - has new leadership emerged or is it likely to emerge before October ends?
Just positing some thoughts . . .
Upset special of the day... Babson at home over MA-Boston.
Would this game even be considered an upset at this point? Not familiar with MA-Boston at all...
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 07, 2015, 12:24:22 PM
Upset special of the day... Babson at home over MA-Boston.
Would this game even be considered an upset at this point? Not familiar with MA-Boston at all...
Babson is definitely having a down year compared to their norm. I think MA-Boston pulls this one out.
My upset of the day is Conn College over Eastern Connecticut. I'm not sold on either MA-Boston or ECSU yet this season.
Quote from: NERevs127 on October 07, 2015, 12:31:08 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 07, 2015, 12:24:22 PM
Upset special of the day... Babson at home over MA-Boston.
Would this game even be considered an upset at this point? Not familiar with MA-Boston at all...
Babson is definitely having a down year compared to their norm. I think MA-Boston pulls this one out.
My upset of the day is Conn College over Eastern Connecticut. I'm not sold on either MA-Boston or ECSU yet this season.
Ill take Conn College also...
My upset alert watch of the day are Misericordia over Dickinson and Susquehanna over Etown.
Other games to watch are Haverford at Camden, Scranton at Drew, Salisbury at St. Marys, Rowan at Swat, and Union vs RPI...could be a trap game for RPI as they look ahead to their clash with St. Lawrence but I don't see them losing back to back conference games.
My predictions are as follows:
Dickinson 2
Misericordia 2
Susquehanna 1
Etown 0
Camden 3
Haverford 2
Scranton 2
Drew 0
St. Mary's 0
Salisbury 1
Rown 3
Swat 1
RPI 2
Union 1
Neither of those are UPSETS... ECONN will sit 10 deep against CONN and try to frustrate them. Conn needs to get a quick lead and they should be ok.
Quote from: NERevs127 on October 07, 2015, 12:31:08 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 07, 2015, 12:24:22 PM
Upset special of the day... Babson at home over MA-Boston.
Would this game even be considered an upset at this point? Not familiar with MA-Boston at all...
Babson is definitely having a down year compared to their norm. I think MA-Boston pulls this one out.
My upset of the day is Conn College over Eastern Connecticut. I'm not sold on either MA-Boston or ECSU yet this season.
I'll take Conn College today and it won't be an upset. Conn vastly outplayed EConn last year, but as was their story last year couldn't put away the multitude of chances they had. Conn has a couple of very good frosh strikers Leon and Lockwood to go with Devlin in the middle and they will find a way to break through.
UPSETS
Manhattanville over Stevens
St. Mary's over Salisbury (not really a big upset, IMO).
Scranton over Drew in OT
Aurora vs MSOE DRAW
Cal Lutheran (2-8-2) to atleast Draw at Occidental (7-1-3)
UW-O over Wheaton (Ill).
PSU-Harrisburg over York DRAW
Oberlin vs Case Western DRAW
MSU at TCNJ DRAW
The issue with ECONN all of a sudden is that those early season wins over Muhlen and Babson do not look that good to the committee as they usually would. The Wesleyan win on the road is a big one and a Conn win today and UMASS Boston win would do it I would think.
NCAC's Barber Shop Trash Talk
The parity theme held water for a while but the dam is about to break. Oneonta and OWU after early stumbles are right where they want to be. Does anyone doubt that Loras and Trinity (TX) will be Sweet 16 teams in the West? Wheaton (Ill) has really stumbled but how many of us think they won't win the the CCIW? Wheaton may even lose or draw to UW-Oshkosh tonight, but would you feel more than a little nervous about your team playing the Thunder in the 1st or 2nd round of the NCAA tournament? Perhaps we underestimated the impact of a coaching change, as we also see Williams struggling, but in the case of Wheaton I think the Thunder will be a force to reckon with in November. Tufts? The Jumbos are in a little more trouble being in the NESCAC, but again, I expect their quality to come through for a bid and the Jumbos ironically will be more feared as the tourney begins than they were a year ago. Tufts losing to Middlebury might make me change my mind, but I don't see that happening. Tufts should also benefit from the relative lack of at-large competition in New England this season. Messiah? Same deal as Wheaton, and the Falcons will almost have to throw a game to miss out on an AQ. Yes, Lycoming is good and a challenge, but Lycoming can't match the Falcons once the latter finish working out their kinks. Anyone really hoping their team gets the Falcons that first weekend of the NCAAs? Messiah's game with W&L will be an underrated tilt this weekend as the Generals are leading the ODAC.
How good is Brandeis? A few seem a little down on the Judge's performance last night, but I watched most of that game and always thought Brandeis was more likely to score with the one exception of the shot MIT flubbed right around the 12 which should have given the Engineers the game. Bottom line is that Brandeis did not LOSE, as as the OTs were going I was trying to rememeber the last time they lost a game in OT....maybe away to Chicago last year...but over the last two years they have prevailed in a bunch of tight ones, which I think speaks to the consistency of their approach, competitiveness, leadership, and overall expectations to win. MIT obviously is pretty darn good, and this was a mid-week game after much recent success that I thought was ripe for Brandeis to lose. As for the offense, yes, we can want more, but they did lay the wood to Carnegie Mellon for 4 goals.
I expect Brandeis to use the MIT game as a wake-up call and get a win over Case, which makes Case's game tonight with Oberlin even more critical. Case certainly doesn't want to take on Brandeis after what would be considered a bad loss, but that said, Oberlin is solid with a dangerous offensive player. I'm pikcing Case tonight, but a 2-1 Oberlin win wouldn't surprise me at all.
I tend to agree with the predictions above for Babson beating UMass-Boston. Babson has been disappointing, but as long as team chemistry isn't badly splintering, I see the Beavers as an underperforming squad that is always a decent bet to follow up a loss with a good result. The Babson game represents a great opportunity for UMass-Boston. Will this be a start of 3 losses inside of two weeks for the Beacons (ECSU next and then MIT later), or will they prove that they can more than compete on equal footing with traditionally bigger reputation schools? I also favor Conn Coll over ECSU, but mostly because Conn lost a tough one to ECSU last year and it's hard to see ECSU winning two years in a row.
WPI plays at Wentworth tonight, the latter cooling after a hot start. This one could be a struggle for WPI.
In the bigger picture I've got my eye on Haverford and Wesleyan, two teams that if they make the tournament could go on runs to the Sweet Sixteen. Haverford @Camden has got to be the game of the day.
Wesleyan still has A LONG WAY to go...They still have to play Williams, Amherst, Midd, and Conn
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 07, 2015, 02:32:21 PM
Wesleyan still has A LONG WAY to go...They still have to play Williams, Amherst, Midd, and Conn
Agreed. That's why I hedged with IF they make it. What do you figure they to do in those 4 games? Is 2-2 enough, or do they need 2-1-1, and at least semis of NESCAC tourney?
Let's take a guess at the Pool Cs (by conference and not necessarily exact teams).....
NESCAC -- 3
NJAC -- 3
UAA -- 2-3
NCAC -- 2
Centennial -- 1-2
Liberty -- 1-2
NEWMAC -- 1?
Out West -- 1
That's 17 Pool Cs right there, not considering any extras for any other conferences yet.
Forgot about the SUNYAC. Let's give them a Pool C and now we're at 18.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 07, 2015, 02:06:47 PM
NCAC's Barber Shop Trash Talk
Is this going to be a regular thing? I would very much support this being a weekly post. Fantastic name, too.
Quote from: blooter442 on October 07, 2015, 02:43:18 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 07, 2015, 02:06:47 PM
NCAC's Barber Shop Trash Talk
Is this going to be a regular thing? I would very much support this being a weekly post. Fantastic name, too.
Haha....once you start a weekly official thing for the site then I will commit to an unofficial thing.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 07, 2015, 02:39:34 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 07, 2015, 02:32:21 PM
Wesleyan still has A LONG WAY to go...They still have to play Williams, Amherst, Midd, and Conn
Agreed. That's why I hedged with IF they make it. What do you figure they to do in those 4 games? Is 2-2 enough, or do they need 2-1-1, and at least semis of NESCAC tourney?
Let's take a guess at the Pool Cs (by conference and not necessarily exact teams).....
NESCAC -- 3
NJAC -- 3
UAA -- 2-3
NCAC -- 2
Centennial -- 1-2
Liberty -- 1-2
NEWMAC -- 1?
Out West -- 1
That's 17 Pool Cs right there, not considering any extras for any other conferences yet.
Forgot about the SUNYAC. Let's give them a Pool C and now we're at 18.
Still to early but I do not see the NJAC getting 3 Pool C's. I do not think the NEWMAC gets 1 either. Liberty might get 1 but not 2. Nescac will not get 3 if they keep beating each other up. UAA might only get 2...who knows yet. We will know better in 2 weeks. Wesleyan can only have 1 more loss IMO. They need a draw with Amherst. Amherst will be ready for them this year though as they will have a chip on their shoulder from last year. I could see Amherst winning that game 2 or 3-0. Frankly, I think Conn has a better schedule left and is a better team than Wesleyan. If Conn can get a result with ECONN, Bowdoin and somehow at least a draw with Amherst they could be good.
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 07, 2015, 03:00:21 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 07, 2015, 02:39:34 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 07, 2015, 02:32:21 PM
Wesleyan still has A LONG WAY to go...They still have to play Williams, Amherst, Midd, and Conn
Agreed. That's why I hedged with IF they make it. What do you figure they to do in those 4 games? Is 2-2 enough, or do they need 2-1-1, and at least semis of NESCAC tourney?
Let's take a guess at the Pool Cs (by conference and not necessarily exact teams).....
NESCAC -- 3
NJAC -- 3
UAA -- 2-3
NCAC -- 2
Centennial -- 1-2
Liberty -- 1-2
NEWMAC -- 1?
Out West -- 1
That's 17 Pool Cs right there, not considering any extras for any other conferences yet.
Forgot about the SUNYAC. Let's give them a Pool C and now we're at 18.
Still to early but I do not see the NJAC getting 3 Pool C's. I do not think the NEWMAC gets 1 either. Liberty might get 1 but not 2. Nescac will not get 3 if they keep beating each other up. UAA might only get 2...who knows yet. We will know better in 2 weeks. Wesleyan can only have 1 more loss IMO. They need a draw with Amherst. Amherst will be ready for them this year though as they will have a chip on their shoulder from last year. I could see Amherst winning that game 2 or 3-0. Frankly, I think Conn has a better schedule left and is a better team than Wesleyan. If Conn can get a result with ECONN, Bowdoin and somehow at least a draw with Amherst they could be good.
Who in NJAC doesn't get a bid out of MSU, Camden, Kean, Rowan, and maybe Newark?
Rowan and Newark until Kean stumbles IMO.
The NJAC is going to punish each other. I think only 3 bids this year, but could be 4.
MINUTES TRAILED DURING SEASON
F&M and Calvin have not trailed this season
Amherst has only trailed once (28 min vs Williams)
Denison has only trailed once (25 min vs Capital)
Eastern has only trailed once by two goals (41 min vs Arcadia), won 3-2
Whitworth has only trailed once (54 min vs George Fox)
Kean has only trailed twice (52 min vs Swat + 17 min vs TCNJ)
Brandeis has trailed twice (32 min vs Hardin Simmons + 88 min vs Trinity)
Kenyon has trailed 3x (107 minutes)
CNU has trailed 5x (168 minutes)
Nearly impossible to determine who will come out of the NJAC this early in the season:
South Atlantic
CAC: CNU (MW, Salisbury challenging); only a two bid league if CNU fails to win the AQ
NJAC: MSU (RUC, Rowan, Stockton, Kean, RUN, TCNJ challenging); Kean, RUN, TCNJ on the outside looking in.
ODAC: Lynchburg (one bid league)
SAA: Millsaps (one bid league)
USAC: Maryville or NC Wesleyan (one bid league)
Emory remaining schedule 6-3-1. 9-5-3 with a strong SOS will not be enough...
10/10 vs. Washington U. Draw
10/16 at Case Western Reserve * Loss
10/18 at Carnegie Mellon * Win
10/21 vs. Birmingham-Southern Win
10/30 vs. Brandeis * Loss
11/1 vs. New York University Win
11/7 vs. Rochester Draw
NESCAC -- 3) Middlebury, Wesleyan, ?
NJAC -- 2) Camden, Rowan
UAA -- 3) Case Western, Washington (MO), possibly Rochester OR Chicago. South Atlantic too deep for Emory to snag a spot.
NCAC -- 2) Denison, DePauw
Centennial -- 1) Haverford
Liberty -- 1) SLU OR RPI
CAC -- 1) CNU or Salisbury
SUNYAC -- 2) Plattsburgh St, Potsdam St
NEWMAC -- 0
Little East - 1) MA-Boston OR ECSU
Out West -- 1
I've watched F&M play twice this season and have not been impressed at all. They do not look like a #1 team IMO. I did not see the Etown game so maybe they play up or down depending on the opponent but either way I don't think they will be in the Final 4 come December based off of what I have seen so far.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 07, 2015, 04:43:17 PM
NESCAC -- 3) Middlebury, Wesleyan, ?
NJAC -- 2) Camden, Rowan
UAA -- 3) Case Western, Washington (MO), possibly Rochester OR Chicago. South Atlantic too deep for Emory to snag a spot.
NCAC -- 2) Denison, DePauw
Centennial -- 1) Haverford
Liberty -- 1) SLU OR RPI
CAC -- 1) CNU or Salisbury
SUNYAC -- 2) Plattsburgh St, Potsdam St
NEWMAC -- 0
Little East - 1) MA-Boston OR ECSU
Out West -- 1
Potsdam at 7-3-1 I think is cooked. That SLU win is about it
F&M has really played any strong opponents... We will find out just how good they are during this stretch:
10/17 at Johns Hopkins * • 1:00 PM Draw
10/20 at Muhlenberg * • 7:00 PM Win
10/24 at Haverford * • 2:00 PM Loss
10/28 at Gettysburg * • 7:00 PM Win
10/31 vs. Dickinson * • 6:00 PM Draw
4 road games, so it would not surpise me to see F&M rack up 3 blemishes during the last 5...
lastguy, so who do you have missing out in the NCAC, Kenyon or OWU? DPU is in driver's seat at moment for regular season, but, yes, AQ goes to tournament winner.
Great work on that minutes trailing post. How did that even come into your head, lol?
The NEWMAC tournament will be a toss-up between WPI, MIT, Babson and Wheaton. The key is qualifying for the tournament to have a chance. Very solid win for Babson but does nothing for them in terms of getting in NEWMAC tourney. WPI likely only team with a shot at a Pool C but very low SOS may be a killer, although presumably SOS will rise over next few weeks. And maybe MIT has a shot at a Pool C if they can limit themselves to one more loss and get to NEWMAC final.
Washington & Lee, coached by Penn grad (I think) and former state coaching director in Mass and MIT coach, very quietly at 5-0 in the ODAC. When was last time W&L made the tournament? Definitely going to check out the Generals vs Messiah this weekend. Roger Mudd I'm sure is pleased.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 07, 2015, 02:06:47 PMWheaton (Ill) has really stumbled but how many of us think they won't win the the CCIW?
Well, after one match Wheaton's already a full game behind North Park in the standings. NPU beat an 8-2 outfit on the road (granted, Millikin's never been anything to write home about on the soccer pitch prior to this season), while Wheaton was upended by an Elmhurst squad that was 2-6-1 coming into the match.
I think NPU has a good shot at winning the CCIW. Then again, I freely admit that I'm not exactly objective about this subject.
Apologies Mr. Sager. I always have a voice in my head that says "Don't forget about that North Park guy."
Seriously, I was thinking about North Park when I wrote that and I did realize Wheaton already has a conference loss. I'm figuring that by the time the CCIW tournament comes around your North Park may already be feeling good about nabbing one of those last 2-3 remaining Pool Cs and that Wheaton will be playing with mad desperation knowing that they have to win the AQ to get in. In full disclosure, I've learned that, just like in the movies, "the bad guy" isn't dead when you think he's dead....like when you open the shower curtain and he's magically standing there with a menacing, blood-curdling laugh right at you.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 07, 2015, 07:10:24 PM
Apologies Mr. Sager. I always have a voice in my head that says "Don't forget about that North Park guy."
LOL. I may have to change my tag from the Roberto Clemente quote to have it simply read, "That North Park guy." :D
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 07, 2015, 07:10:24 PMSeriously, I was thinking about North Park when I wrote that and I did realize Wheaton already has a conference loss. I'm figuring that by the time the CCIW tournament comes around your North Park may already be feeling good about nabbing one of those last 2-3 remaining Pool Cs and that Wheaton will be playing with mad desperation knowing that they have to win the AQ to get in.
You said "win the CCIW," though, and I interpreted that to mean the league title. As I indicated, NPU's got the leg up right now on winning the league (although nobody here in Chicago is counting his chickens before they've hatched). The AQ is another matter, of course ... but if NPU's got home pitch in a CCIW tourney title match against Wheaton, I like the chances of the Vikings, even if it's win-or-your-season's-over for Wheaton.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 07, 2015, 07:10:24 PMIn full disclosure, I've learned that, just like in the movies, "the bad guy" isn't dead when you think he's dead....like when you open the shower curtain and he's magically standing there with a menacing, blood-curdling laugh right at you.
Believe me, nobody who roots for NPU will ever, ever,
ever take Wheaton lightly. Not only has Wheaton been a national power for what seems like forever in this sport, it's also North Park's archrival. Foster's Finest (the NPU soccer student section) does anti-Wheaton cheers during matches against other teams, just for the sake of practice. Wheaton could nosedive into oblivion as a soccer program (won't happen, but a guy can always dream), and NPU fans would
still bay for Wheaton's blood.
Great job on the reply "North Park guy"!
Can someone please tell Case Western to remove the cap from the video lens?!
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 07, 2015, 05:54:14 PM
lastguy, so who do you have missing out in the NCAC, Kenyon or OWU? DPU is in driver's seat at moment for regular season, but, yes, AQ goes to tournament winner.
Great work on that minutes trailing post. How did that even come into your head, lol?
NCACNE,
I think you're pretty down on your Lords but it's over the top in my opinion.
Between Denison, DePauw, Kenyon, and OWU, I think the team who ends up taking the best record vs each other puts themselves in the drivers seat for an AQ. Obviously DePauw with a win over Loras and Kenyon looks especially great now. Denison's big win so far is vs TMC. Kenyon's was Carnegie (which you've said is looking less impressive), and OWU doesn't have one yet. But each of these teams still has to play 2 of the others so some GREAT action is on the horizon.
There's still so much action to be played in this conference. Oberlin and Wabash are still trying to join the party too. This conference really is great this year.
Quote from: Midwest Soccer on October 07, 2015, 07:52:20 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 07, 2015, 05:54:14 PM
lastguy, so who do you have missing out in the NCAC, Kenyon or OWU? DPU is in driver's seat at moment for regular season, but, yes, AQ goes to tournament winner.
Great work on that minutes trailing post. How did that even come into your head, lol?
NCACNE,
I think you're pretty down on your Lords but it's over the top in my opinion.
Between Denison, DePauw, Kenyon, and OWU, I think the team who ends up taking the best record vs each other puts themselves in the drivers seat for an AQ. Obviously DePauw with a win over Loras and Kenyon looks especially great now. Denison's big win so far is vs TMC. Kenyon's was Carnegie (which you've said is looking less impressive), and OWU doesn't have one yet. But each of these teams still has to play 2 of the others so some GREAT action is on the horizon.
There's still so much action to be played in this conference. Oberlin and Wabash are still trying to join the party too. This conference really is great this year.
You're right. Pessimism protects against abject devastation.
But in this case I was responding to LGOTB who was projecting Denison and DePauw as getting Pool C bids and NCAC getting 3 total, so in that scenario either Kenyon or OWU would be out. Just wanted to understand his thought process.
CWRU video on now. Case GK looks really good from a quick glance. Anyone got any info on him? Case looks pretty big too. Up 1-0.
Haverford just went up 2-0 early 2nd half.
If Haverford pulls this out will be a huge win for the 'Fords, and a big blow to Camden if Camden ends up being a bubble team.
3-0 Haverford...That's 10 goals on this field in 2 years...At 8-3-1 Camden's resume has serious holes as they cannot get to 5 losses.
Oberlin just whiffed on a tap in from 4 yards out. Playing pretty well. Good video.
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 07, 2015, 08:30:08 PM
3-0 Haverford...That's 10 goals on this field in 2 years...At 8-3-1 Camden's resume has serious holes as they cannot get to 5 losses.
Not a good showing by Camden at all. Dickinson is up 3-1 at Misericordia. Scranton with a big road win at Drew 2-1. That all but ends Drew's hope at an at-large bid. Etown over Susquehanna 3-1 as they are cruising along and heavy favorites in the Landmark. Merchant Marine draws Moravian...that might end their hopes of any post season play. RPI up 1-0 in the 60th minute
And just when I was going to post that Case played too conservatively for my liking and was significantly outplayed by Oberlin in the 2nd half Oberlin scores to draw even in the final minutes.
Case-Oberlin going OT. Case lucky that Oberlin has not stolen this game outright. I was impressed with Case and then they decided to sit in and defend. This will be deadly for them against better UAA teams, and I can't recall but may be how they got themselves in trouble in TMC game. And Oberlin looks pretty good, dominating possession.
WENTWORTH BEATS WPI WITH PK IN OT. Just when we started to believe in WPI.
Case VERY fortunate to still be in this game. Oberlin had great chance to end it and mostly dominated 1st OT (and 2nd half in general). I was all prepared to jump on the Case bandwagon but they look shaky tonight.
Oberlin 1 Case 1 2nd OT Final
Not a good result for Case. Good result for Oberlin and will give them confidence when they play Kenyon, OWU, Denison. Honestly felt Oberlin did enough to win.
I have a lot of respect for Oberlin coach who even when they don't have the firepower always try to play possession soccer. I'm more impressed because coach (Blake New) was a D1 GK by trade (and I believe played in the the professional indoor league).
And I recalled correctly...Case was up by a goal twice in TMC game, and lost in OT on a Juniet goal.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 07, 2015, 09:22:32 PM
WENTWORTH BEATS WPI WITH PK IN OT. Just when we started to believe in WPI.
By far the most shocking result of the day. Did you catch any of the game? From the stats alone Wentworth looked to be in it. The last two days have blown the NEWMAC (predictions) wide open.
Quote from: blooter442 on October 07, 2015, 09:58:26 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 07, 2015, 09:22:32 PM
WENTWORTH BEATS WPI WITH PK IN OT. Just when we started to believe in WPI.
By far the most shocking result of the day. Did you catch any of the game? From the stats alone Wentworth looked to be in it. The last two days have blown the NEWMAC (predictions) wide open.
No, didn't see it. But I had a feeling about WPI having a letdown against a Wentworth team that not too long ago was 7-0 and had a couple of decent wins. I watched WPI struggle to score earlier in the season against teams like Mass Maritime and I thought draw with MCLA was not a good sign.
Wheaton-Oshkosh 0-0 and in 1st OT.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 07, 2015, 09:52:12 PM
And I recalled correctly...Case was up by a goal twice in TMC game, and lost in OT on a Juniet goal.
From what I saw of the Case-TMC game, Case carried play in both regulation and OT, and did not try to sit on either of their leads. One hopes they might learn from tonight's encounter.
MSOE goes down 1-0 to Aurora. Andryks shut down for the most part.
Former Central power Dominican takes 70 minutes to score against lowly Rockford and only finishes 2-0. Despite a 7-2-2 record with a 4-0-1 record in conference, the Stars may seem to have fallen off from their dominant teams in the past.
MSOE @ Dominican this Saturday should tell more.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 07, 2015, 07:10:24 PM
In full disclosure, I've learned that, just like in the movies, "the bad guy" isn't dead when you think he's dead....like when you open the shower curtain and he's magically standing there with a menacing, blood-curdling laugh right at you.
TennesseJed, exactly how much of that hootie-hoo did you give to NCAC?? ;D
Wheaton and UW-Oshkosh end in a scoreless draw up in the Bib Overalls Capital of the World.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 07, 2015, 06:05:09 PM
Washington & Lee, coached by Penn grad (I think) and former state coaching director in Mass and MIT coach, very quietly at 5-0 in the ODAC. When was last time W&L made the tournament? Definitely going to check out the Generals vs Messiah this weekend. Roger Mudd I'm sure is pleased.
W&L is getting better. Big hill to climb with Lynchburg and they weren't great in their headline OOC games. Tying Berry was good, but losing badly to Stockton and tight to Catholic didn't help. They have a huge week plus upcoming. As it is my alma mater, I'll be interested in how they do at Messiah. Not quite the Messiah we are used to, but still a measuring stick game for sure. Then they are off to Lynchburg Wednesday followed by away at RMC. That's three road games, two of them headline opponents. I'm guessing they will need to win the ODAC to earn a bid as even going undefeated from here on out won't give them but 2 good wins.
The last time they made the tourney was 2000 with a win over Frostburg before losing to CNU.
Quote from: Wisco21 on October 08, 2015, 12:10:08 AM
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 07, 2015, 07:10:24 PM
In full disclosure, I've learned that, just like in the movies, "the bad guy" isn't dead when you think he's dead....like when you open the shower curtain and he's magically standing there with a menacing, blood-curdling laugh right at you.
TennesseJed, exactly how much of that hootie-hoo did you give to NCAC?? ;D
I just lead the horse to water... 8-)
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 07, 2015, 09:52:12 PM
Oberlin 1 Case 1 2nd OT Final
Not a good result for Case. Good result for Oberlin and will give them confidence when they play Kenyon, OWU, Denison. Honestly felt Oberlin did enough to win.
I have a lot of respect for Oberlin coach who even when they don't have the firepower always try to play possession soccer. I'm more impressed because coach (Blake New) was a D1 GK by trade (and I believe played in the the professional indoor league).
And I recalled correctly...Case was up by a goal twice in TMC game, and lost in OT on a Juniet goal.
I did post about Oberlin a week or so ago - they are one of the better possession teams I've seen first hand. Their top two lines stay connected and seem to know where each other are - also making good runs without the ball. The back line was their weakest link - also using a freshman goalkeeper. Again, their conference schedule is brutal as they play most of the key games on the road.
Probably a shame for the NCAC but this conference has several quality teams this year, only 4 make it into the post season tournament. Each match over the next three weeks will be super critical. I may logging a few miles on my car, running around the state of Ohio . . .
Quote from: Domino1195 on October 08, 2015, 10:50:20 AM
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 07, 2015, 09:52:12 PM
Oberlin 1 Case 1 2nd OT Final
Not a good result for Case. Good result for Oberlin and will give them confidence when they play Kenyon, OWU, Denison. Honestly felt Oberlin did enough to win.
I have a lot of respect for Oberlin coach who even when they don't have the firepower always try to play possession soccer. I'm more impressed because coach (Blake New) was a D1 GK by trade (and I believe played in the the professional indoor league).
And I recalled correctly...Case was up by a goal twice in TMC game, and lost in OT on a Juniet goal.
I did post about Oberlin a week or so ago - they are one of the better possession teams I've seen first hand. Their top two lines stay connected and seem to know where each other are - also making good runs without the ball. The back line was their weakest link - also using a freshman goalkeeper. Again, their conference schedule is brutal as they play most of the key games on the road.
Probably a shame for the NCAC but this conference has several quality teams this year, only 4 make it into the post season tournament. Each match over the next three weeks will be super critical. I may logging a few miles on my car, running around the state of Ohio . . .
There's gonna be some (hopefully) great games in Ohio over the next 3-4 weeks. Wishing I was close enough to do those car rides myself...
I definitely would have given Case the edge in this game, particularly at home, but I unfortunately couldn't watch it last night. Hoping I can see some film somewhere. If anyone is aware of a reply link, pls post one. Nice draw for Oberlin. Not a strong wind for Case heading into Brandeis game on Sunday, even though they will have the hfa, again.
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 07, 2015, 08:30:08 PM
3-0 Haverford...That's 10 goals on this field in 2 years...At 8-3-1 Camden's resume has serious holes as they cannot get to 5 losses.
Was anyone at the game to see if the score reflected this result or heard anything about this game?
I watched the live stats. Box score seemed even throughout but obviously the scoreboard was not.
Quote from: ECSUalum on October 06, 2015, 05:08:40 PM
http://www.d3soccer.com/columns/christan-shirk/2015/Year-Nine
I think we should all give a shout out to Jim Matson and Christian Shirk for providing an excellent place for Division III soccer fans to talk, blog, read interesting articles, and for the fun rankings and other statistics that they provide!!
Thanks guys for all your efforts,
BTW over at D3 hoopsl Pat Coleman, Gordon Mann and Dave McHugh conducted a fund raising drive that I think proved relatively successful, providing much needed fund to maintain the site. I am sure the D3 soccer family would be just as supportive!
You're welcome, ECSU Alum. We appreciate the acknowledgement. And perhaps we'll have to look into the fund raising idea. I did not realize the D3sports network had done that (I'm too busy to get onto their sites very often).
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 08, 2015, 01:45:06 PM
I watched the live stats. Box score seemed even throughout but obviously the scoreboard was not.
Wasn't there, but RUC CB got a RC vs Kean in the previous game. Two restart goals and hit the crossbar when down 1-0 before half. They led in shots 9-5 at half and only 2 or 3 fouls.
No wins vs ranked for Camden, so MSU and Stockton games are huge
Quote from: Christan Shirk on October 08, 2015, 04:00:48 PM
Quote from: ECSUalum on October 06, 2015, 05:08:40 PM
http://www.d3soccer.com/columns/christan-shirk/2015/Year-Nine
I think we should all give a shout out to Jim Matson and Christian Shirk for providing an excellent place for Division III soccer fans to talk, blog, read interesting articles, and for the fun rankings and other statistics that they provide!!
Thanks guys for all your efforts,
BTW over at D3 hoopsl Pat Coleman, Gordon Mann and Dave McHugh conducted a fund raising drive that I think proved relatively successful, providing much needed fund to maintain the site. I am sure the D3 soccer family would be just as supportive!
You're welcome, ECSU Alum. We appreciate the acknowledgement. And perhaps we'll have to look into the fund raising idea. I did not realize the D3sports network had done that (I'm too busy to get onto their sites very often).
I apologize if this has been covered, but why the spilt from the d3 family of sites and yet the board is located with all the other sports' boards?
Quote from: NEPAFAN on October 08, 2015, 08:48:06 PMI apologize if this has been covered, but why the spilt from the d3 family of sites and yet the board is located with all the other sports' boards?
As to the split from the D3sports network, I think I'll just repeat the statement I made at the outset of last season and leave it at that.
Quote from: Christan Shirk on August 21, 2014, 09:43:57 AM
I am pleased to let you know that D3soccer.com is gearing up for the new 2014 season and plans to be an active site again this year. We do have some resources and manpower issues that, without going into details, is what precipitated the departure from the D3sports.com network. It was an amicable parting of ways and a disappointment to both sides. The D3sports network has set and met high standards of excellence and has established a very strong "brand". We at D3soccer.com respect and admire the network's collective success as well as that of the individual sport sites and all the work that goes into it.
continue reading (http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=8208.msg1601525#msg1601525)
Regarding the message board, after the split from the D3sports network, we did not set-up our own message board. Prior to this season we ever so briefly discussed doing so, but I strongly felt that was unnecessary and potentially detrimental. First, we have our hands full enough without adding yet another thing to administer and maintain, even if message boards are relatively low maintenance. And, second, I did not want to splinter the on-line D-III soccer community between multiple message boards. We saw that happen a decade ago when the short-lived D3kicks website was introduced with its own message board and there was an exodus from the original D3 Soccer Message Board by (disgruntled?) Midwest fans and some other geographical pockets like New England, if my foggy memory has any reliability. A D-III soccer fan that wanted to learn about and/or discuss all the different regions, basically had to spend time on two different message boards, the original one for Mid-Atlantic, Metro, and South discussions and the D3kicks one for Midwest and New England discussions. That was a shame. The on-line D-III soccer community isn't big enough to effectively support two message boards, in my opinion, and as a fan myself I'd rather have one board to be able to keep up on the whole nation.
I certainly do not see any reason to remove the links to this D3sports message board from D3soccer.com unless/until we have our own message board. We have no reason to want to prevent D-III soccer fans from finding each other on-line just because it would happen on a message board we can't take credit for. So, as a service to the visitors to D3soccer.com and all the posters already on this message board, we continue providing links to this message board so the on-line community can grow all in one place.
Quote from: Christan Shirk on October 08, 2015, 04:00:48 PM
Quote from: ECSUalum on October 06, 2015, 05:08:40 PM
http://www.d3soccer.com/columns/christan-shirk/2015/Year-Nine
I think we should all give a shout out to Jim Matson and Christian Shirk for providing an excellent place for Division III soccer fans to talk, blog, read interesting articles, and for the fun rankings and other statistics that they provide!!
Thanks guys for all your efforts,
BTW over at D3 hoopsl Pat Coleman, Gordon Mann and Dave McHugh conducted a fund raising drive that I think proved relatively successful, providing much needed fund to maintain the site. I am sure the D3 soccer family would be just as supportive!
CHristian,
My financial advisor went to Bucknell U, but due to his strong religious faith sent ALL his kids to Messiah, and they all loved it there!! Keep up the good work and I'll be rooting for Messiah to come on strong toward the end of the season!!
You're welcome, ECSU Alum. We appreciate the acknowledgement. And perhaps we'll have to look into the fund raising idea. I did not realize the D3sports network had done that (I'm too busy to get onto their sites very often).
Oneonta St misses a PK in the 88th min. Plattsburgh St scores with 30 sec left for the 1-0 win.
Rutgers-Camden beats Ramapo 5-1. Mike Ryan scores his 14th and 15th goals on the season and Connor Hurff adds two assists for his 10th and 11th on the year.
NJAC 6 playoff spots seem to be locked up just about in a very top heavy year.
Nice looking field at Vassar. Skidmore up 1-0.
Messiah getting a bit of the better of play hosting W&L but both teams have had chances. Ref is just letting them beat the snot out of each other right now.
Cooper Diambrosio comes through again with 36 sec left in regulation to defeat UMass Boston 2-1 in Boston! Eastern played a bit like they did vs Gordon in the first half anf conceded a goal to Mohammed Kenawy, however played much better in the second half with more possession and more pressure. UMB got very physical, (2 yellows and (one red at 25 sec remaining)), and it backfired on them as with 35 sec left they foul for the umpteenth time allowing a throw in into the box where DeAmbrosio nudged it past a sprawled out Rosales. UMB also missed a PK on a questionable foul on DaSilva in the box!!! GK Ryan Murphy gets man of the match as he made 3 or 4 heroic lightning quick saves off of drives by Kenewy et al, including the PK .
The play by play guy for UMBoston was ridiculous in how one sided he called the game, both goals being "fortunate" for ECSU. I guess the arrogance extended to the announcer tonight.
Congrats to the Warriors for hanging tough, a bit like the Boys in Green did vs Germany a couple days ago ;D
SHOTS 1 2 TOTAL
Eastern Conn. St. 2 9 11
Mass.-Boston 7 11 18
SAVES 1 2 TOTAL
Eastern Conn. St. 4 6 10
Mass.-Boston 2 5 7
CORNER KICKS 1 2 TOTAL
Eastern Conn. St. 0 1 1
Mass.-Boston 2 1 3
FOULS 1 2 TOTAL
Eastern Conn. St. 7 5 12
Mass.-Boston 7 13 20
Messiah dominating the play now. W&L has struggled in the second half to relieve the pressure but Messiah not getting a ton of good looks. 83 minutes in with no score.
W&L takes Messiah to a 0-0 overtime. I almost wish they wouldn't go to the OT since I'd rather W&L have fresher legs for the conference game at Lynchburg, but give the Generals credit. They've been forced back but it's not like Messiah has blown a ton of good opportunities. They've had a couple, but not that an endless wave. 17 shots for the Falcons but only 9 on goal and all but 3 or so of those weren't dangerous at all. W&L has had two of their 3 shots on goal look dangerous in the first half, but the second half was all about Messiah pressuring forward.
Congrats ECSUalum. I have to say I was pulling for the Warriors as I felt that UMB has been slightly overrated and, combined with their loss to Babson, have had to come back down to Earth a bit. I really like the way that UMB plays with flair and "go for it" but some of their antics are questionable. Regardless, good victory for ECSU.
Messiah gets a well deserved winner in OT off a restart. They had the better of the play and finally pushed one in. Proud of W&L for the hard work. Hopefully it doesn't take too much out of their legs before the trip to Lynchburg.
Quote from: blooter442 on October 10, 2015, 07:58:12 PM
Congrats ECSUalum. I have to say I was pulling for the Warriors as I felt that UMB has been slightly overrated and, combined with their loss to Babson, have had to come back down to Earth a bit. I really like the way that UMB plays with flair and "go for it" but some of their antics are questionable. Regardless, good victory for ECSU.
Thank You sir, I will admit ECSU dodged a couple of bullets tonight, but fy GK Murphy saved us and the rest of the team never gave up!!
WPU steals 3 Pts vs Kean.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 07, 2015, 05:54:14 PM
lastguy, so who do you have missing out in the NCAC, Kenyon or OWU? DPU is in driver's seat at moment for regular season, but, yes, AQ goes to tournament winner.
Great work on that minutes trailing post. How did that even come into your head, lol?
I expect Kenyon to earn the AQ.
Denison loss hurts today...
Quote from: jknezek on October 10, 2015, 08:00:08 PM
Messiah gets a well deserved winner in OT off a restart. They had the better of the play and finally pushed one in. Proud of W&L for the hard work. Hopefully it doesn't take too much out of their legs before the trip to Lynchburg.
I generally agree with jknezek's assessment, but I think the Falcons were more dangerous than he indicated in his other posts. The Generals' keeper made some great saves, and at least two shots were saved off the line. This was a solid win, but a tough one, for the Falcons. Glad to see them get one like that. Freshman keeper Connor Bell almost let one in very early, when he deflected one hard off the opposite post, but otherwise he wasn't really challenged. Nevertheless he looked a lot better than our other keeper had been looking. The best number tonight, other than the "1," was the 4 saves (at least that is my count, I haven't seen the box score yet). That's 4 more than we had against LVC, despite their two goals.
Emory quietly moving up with 6 straight wins and 5 consecutive shut outs...
Quote from: ECSUalum on October 10, 2015, 07:07:27 PM
Cooper Diambrosio comes through again with 36 sec left in regulation to defeat UMass Boston 2-1 in Boston! Eastern played a bit like they did vs Gordon in the first half anf conceded a goal to Mohammed Kenawy, however played much better in the second half with more possession and more pressure. UMB got very physical, (2 yellows and (one red at 25 sec remaining)), and it backfired on them as with 35 sec left they foul for the umpteenth time allowing a throw in into the box where DeAmbrosio nudged it past a sprawled out Rosales. UMB also missed a PK on a questionable foul on DaSilva in the box!!! GK Ryan Murphy gets man of the match as he made 3 or 4 heroic lightning quick saves off of drives by Kenewy et al, including the PK .
The play by play guy for UMBoston was ridiculous in how one sided he called the game, both goals being "fortunate" for ECSU. I guess the arrogance extended to the announcer tonight.
Congrats to the Warriors for hanging tough, a bit like the Boys in Green did vs Germany a couple days ago ;D
SHOTS 1 2 TOTAL
Eastern Conn. St. 2 9 11
Mass.-Boston 7 11 18
SAVES 1 2 TOTAL
Eastern Conn. St. 4 6 10
Mass.-Boston 2 5 7
CORNER KICKS 1 2 TOTAL
Eastern Conn. St. 0 1 1
Mass.-Boston 2 1 3
I
FOULS 1 2 TOTAL
Eastern Conn. St. 7 5 12
Mass.-Boston 7 13 20
The ball into the box was a free kick by the way. Played relatively quickly catching UMB slightly off guard.
Anyways, I think UMB can play better soccer but they're a bit arrogant and play a bit dirty as well. Always coming in after the tackle or shouldering from behind on head balls. Once Eastern got their equalizer they upped the pressure. Devitos game plan was to play over the top and hope for a break their way. If not that the he wanted the ball sprayed out to the wings and cross it in back post. Pretty simple, and turned out to be effective tonight because they could only put a few passes together at a time and only around midfield. There was hardly any combination play from Eastern around the box.
Quote from: Sandy on October 10, 2015, 09:10:54 PM
Quote from: ECSUalum on October 10, 2015, 07:07:27 PM
Cooper Diambrosio comes through again with 36 sec left in regulation to defeat UMass Boston 2-1 in Boston! Eastern played a bit like they did vs Gordon in the first half anf conceded a goal to Mohammed Kenawy, however played much better in the second half with more possession and more pressure. UMB got very physical, (2 yellows and (one red at 25 sec remaining)), and it backfired on them as with 35 sec left they foul for the umpteenth time allowing a throw in into the box where DeAmbrosio nudged it past a sprawled out Rosales. UMB also missed a PK on a questionable foul on DaSilva in the box!!! GK Ryan Murphy gets man of the match as he made 3 or 4 heroic lightning quick saves off of drives by Kenewy et al, including the PK .
The play by play guy for UMBoston was ridiculous in how one sided he called the game, both goals being "fortunate" for ECSU. I guess the arrogance extended to the announcer tonight.
Congrats to the Warriors for hanging tough, a bit like the Boys in Green did vs Germany a couple days ago ;D
SHOTS 1 2 TOTAL
Eastern Conn. St. 2 9 11
Mass.-Boston 7 11 18
SAVES 1 2 TOTAL
Eastern Conn. St. 4 6 10
Mass.-Boston 2 5 7
CORNER KICKS 1 2 TOTAL
Eastern Conn. St. 0 1 1
Mass.-Boston 2 1 3
I
FOULS 1 2 TOTAL
Eastern Conn. St. 7 5 12
Mass.-Boston 7 13 20
The ball into the box was a free kick by the way. Played relatively quickly catching UMB slightly off guard.
Anyways, I think UMB can play better soccer but they're a bit arrogant and play a bit dirty as well. Always coming in after the tackle or shouldering from behind on head balls. Once Eastern got their equalizer they upped the pressure. Devitos game plan was to play over the top and hope for a break their way. If not that the he wanted the ball sprayed out to the wings and cross it in back post. Pretty simple, and turned out to be effective tonight because they could only put a few passes together at a time and only around midfield. There was hardly any combination play from Eastern around the box.
Sandy, you are correct re the last play! Below see UMB write-up and highlight video
http://www.beaconsathletics.com/sports/m-soccer/2015-16/releases/20151010uo6b5e
Barber Shop Trash Talk: key games across the country
Beginning with the nation's top league, Tufts and Middlebury started the day off in a NESCAC showdown in Medford, MA. Today at least Tufts was the superior side, earning a well-deserved 1-0 win on a nice, clean finish from Majumder. Fortunes can turn rapidly in D3 soccer, and just when we were about to pencil in Middlebury as a lock for a NCAA bid they now face the risk of back-to-back losses as tomorrow finds the Panthers on the road against an in-form Wesleyan squad that dominated Colby start to finish in a 3-0 win. The Wesleyan-Middlebury game looms as one of the pivotal NESCAC clashes of the season. Amherst was deadlocked with Hamilton at the half but came out and blitzed the Continentals in the second stanza 3-0. Conn Coll remained in serious contention with a solid if less than spectacular 1-0 verdict over Bates. And as our correspondent FourMoreYears (great name btw!) informed us earlier today Trinity bested Bowdoin in dramatic fashion, again getting a late OT winner inside the final minute of play with a clutch tally from Savonen. Williams was on the road for an out-of-conference nightcap tilt with suddenly floundering RPI, and the Ephs pulled out a huge 1-0 win. We'll have to see if Williams can use the momentum from this one to go on a tear that might make the Ephs relevant come November. Loved the Ephs uniforms which looked stylish compared to the usual, boring NESCAC kits.
Is any team in the country hotter than Haverford? Coming off the 'Fords impressive win over Rutgers-Camden Haverford importantly consolidated that win by earning a solid 2-1 victory over a surging Dickinson side. The F&M offense finally showed some dominance in a 5-0 shellacking of McDaniel. The Haverford vs F&M showdown is setting up to be one of the games of the year and may foreshadow another meeting in the Centennial playoffs. Johns Hopkins edged Ursinus 3-2 and Gettysburg appears to be on the fade, picking up another loss, this time away at Swarthmore.
Just to make sure I don't forget them, there were a pair of double OT games of import in the Commonwealth Coast Conference, with 5-0 in-conference Endicott getting by Curry and Wentworth coming off the win over WPI to sneak past Nichols.
Speaking of WPI, just when we were singing their praises and playing Amherst into OT, the Engineers have now dropped a pair, losing to Springfield on the road 2-1. MIT scored a critical NEWMAC victory by coming from behind to nip Wheaton in OT.
The ECSU vs UMass-Boston game was much anticipated, and a late PK miss by the Beacons gave ECSU an opportunity to nab a winner in the last minute, something they managed to do earlier in the year. Perhaps the difference was ECSU having just a tad more experience in big, tense affairs, and UMass-Boston will need to keep the implosion meter in check moving forward.
It was a crazy day in the NCAC as TennesseeJed detailed earlier. Denison fell from the unbeaten ranks with a surprising and potentially very damaging loss away at Allegheny, as the Gators, with only 3 total wins on the season find themselves in second place in the NCAC with a 2-0-1 ledger. Oberlin also will turn in tonight with regrets, outplaying Wabash at home but walking away with a 1-0 loss. The win by the Little Giants keeps their hopes alive of snagging the last NCAC playoff slot, and now Denison's trip to Crawfordsville mid-week could go a long way in determining each squad's fortunes (and Denison has Kenyon away after that). Speaking of Kenyon, the Lords were sluggish at Wooster, ended the 1st half at 0-0, found themselves down 1-0 3 minutes into the 2nd half, and then finally got on track for 6 straight goals. DePauw remained unblemished in conference play and sits top of the table in the NCAC, but Hiram provided resistance as the Tigers did not score until the 77th minute in a 1-0 game. And here comes OWU. The Battling Bishops are hitting stride and were inhospitable hosts to Wittenburg in a 6-0 slaughter-rule contest.
In the NJAC, Montclair flexed its muscle in a major match-up away at Rowan, taking a 2-1 victory. Kean suffered a costly slip in a 1-0 double OT loss to William Paterson. And Rutgers-Camden regrouped with a very comfortable conquest of Ramapo. Stockton and Rutgers-Newark ended 0-0.
If you didn't look at the scoreline you would think Messiah is Messiah...dominating possession and beautiful combination play, but the Falcons are still struggling in the final 3rd. They finally got the winner in OT for a deserved win over valiant Washington & Lee. The Messiah video production is first-rate, with excellent video, replays, and very astute and mostly fair commentary (wasn't always the case) aided by some guy named Flying Weasel.
We should rename the UAA "0-0 2nd OT". As I'm typing and watching Mexico go all Messiah on the good 'ol USA as Chicarito finishes, Chicago and Rochester are 1-1 in the 109th minute. Emory scored late to take a vital 1-0 win over Wash U. We'll have to see how much this missed chance to assert themselves hurts Wash U, already coming off a draw with Rochester. And yes, Chicago and UR end 1-1. CMU survived NYU 1-0. And tomorrow brings a UAA clash between Case and Brandeis that is bigger for Case than the Judges.
In the East region, there were a few results that may reverberate for a while. SLU lost to Hobart on an OT PK. Skidmore grabbed a key Liberty win 1-0 away at Vassar. Union smacked Bard 6-1. Plattsburgh earned a major, signature victory over Oneonta. Brockport nipped Geneseo 1-0.
In the late night headliner, Loras has disposed of rival Wartburg 2-0.
In other games of interest, Christopher Newport was held 0-0 by Frostburg, Virginia Wesleyan and Lynchburg drew, Maryville squeaked by NC Wesleyan in double OT, Lycoming only managed a tie with Arcadia, Drew beat Catholic, Stevens topped Alfred 2-1, Whitworht remained unbeaten with a win over Whitman, Dominican took the conference collision with MSOE, Macalester remained unbeaten with a come from behind win over St Thomas, and Eastern eased past Misericordia 2-0.
Thomas (ME) walloped Green Mountain by two touchdowns, 15-1.
Don't forget some great battles tomorrow, including Middlebury-Wesleyan, Brandeis-Case Western, and Colorado College-Trinity (TX).
Time to focus on the 2nd half of this Mexico-USA donnybrook.
Excellent edition of Barber Shop Trash Talk. Looking forward to next week's edition ;) (But first, Bradley doing his best Monil Patel impression and almost curling a corner in on its own.)
Hottest team in the country?
This is a huge week for a lot of teams.
Had Oneonta St converted the PK today, I'd have said they were one of the hottest.
I've been saying it for a while, Haverford is going to be that Centennial team that reaches a final 4 in the near future. Just good results vs an incredibly ridiculous schedule... Wouldn't shock me if they moved up to 3rd in Massey ratings behind Amherst n MSU
Kean is off the pot and will cool down as I can see them losing Atleast 3 of their last 5;
10/14 at Montclair State * • 7:00 PM LS. LOSS
10/17 vs. Rutgers-Newark * • 7:00 PM LS V. DRAW
10/21 vs. Rowan * • 7:30 PM LS V. LOSS (draw at best)
10/24 at Stockton * • 2:00 PM LS V. LOSS
10/28 vs. Ramapo * • WIN
Hood's Drew Demich scores 18th on the season vs Albright at 109:58;
strike found the NCAA's leading goal scorer, who chested the ball, headed it and then booted it home for the win.
Talk about composure... Any video on this one?
Quote from: blooter442 on October 10, 2015, 11:04:07 PM
Excellent edition of Barber Shop Trash Talk. Looking forward to next week's edition ;) (But first, Bradley doing his best Monil Patel impression and almost curling a corner in on its own.)
I'll second that!! +k
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 10, 2015, 10:35:14 PM
Barber Shop Trash Talk: key games across the country
In other games of interest, Christopher Newport was held 0-0 by Frostburg, Virginia Wesleyan and Lynchburg drew, Maryville squeaked by NC Wesleyan in double OT, Lycoming only managed a tie with Arcadia, Drew beat Catholic, Stevens topped Alfred 2-1, Whitworht remained unbeaten with a win over Whitman, Dominican took the conference collision with MSOE, Macalester remained unbeaten with a come from behind win over St Thomas, and Eastern eased past Misericordia 2-0.
Thomas (ME) walloped Green Mountain by two touchdowns, 15-1.
Don't forget some great battles tomorrow, including Middlebury-Wesleyan, Brandeis-Case Western, and Colorado College-Trinity (TX).
Time to focus on the 2nd half of this Mexico-USA donnybrook.
Excellent!
That Thomas coach should be slammed for beating Green Mountain 15-1. Someone should remind him that this is not D1 Football where your winning score helps your ranking. If ever there was anything to necessitate more meetings for a D4, Green Mountain is it.
:
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 10, 2015, 10:35:14 PM
Barber Shop Trash Talk: key games across the country
Beginning with the nation's top league, Tufts and Middlebury started the day off in a NESCAC showdown in Medford, MA. Today at least Tufts was the superior side, earning a well-deserved 1-0 win on a nice, clean finish from Majumder. Fortunes can turn rapidly in D3 soccer, and just when we were about to pencil in Middlebury as a lock for a NCAA bid they now face the risk of back-to-back losses as tomorrow finds the Panthers on the road against an in-form Wesleyan squad that dominated Colby start to finish in a 3-0 win. The Wesleyan-Middlebury game looms as one of the pivotal NESCAC clashes of the season. Amherst was deadlocked with Hamilton at the half but came out and blitzed the Continentals in the second stanza 3-0. Conn Coll remained in serious contention with a solid if less than spectacular 1-0 verdict over Bates. And as our correspondent FourMoreYears (great name btw!) informed us earlier today Trinity bested Bowdoin in dramatic fashion, again getting a late OT winner inside the final minute of play with a clutch tally from Savonen. Williams was on the road for an out-of-conference nightcap tilt with suddenly floundering RPI, and the Ephs pulled out a huge 1-0 win. We'll have to see if Williams can use the momentum from this one to go on a tear that might make the Ephs relevant come November. Loved the Ephs uniforms which looked stylish compared to the usual, boring NESCAC kits.
Is any team in the country hotter than Haverford? Coming off the 'Fords impressive win over Rutgers-Camden Haverford importantly consolidated that win by earning a solid 2-1 victory over a surging Dickinson side. The F&M offense finally showed some dominance in a 5-0 shellacking of McDaniel. The Haverford vs F&M showdown is setting up to be one of the games of the year and may foreshadow another meeting in the Centennial playoffs. Johns Hopkins edged Ursinus 3-2 and Gettysburg appears to be on the fade, picking up another loss, this time away at Swarthmore.
Just to make sure I don't forget them, there were a pair of double OT games of import in the Commonwealth Coast Conference, with 5-0 in-conference Endicott getting by Curry and Wentworth coming off the win over WPI to sneak past Nichols.
Speaking of WPI, just when we were singing their praises and playing Amherst into OT, the Engineers have now dropped a pair, losing to Springfield on the road 2-1. MIT scored a critical NEWMAC victory by coming from behind to nip Wheaton in OT.
The ECSU vs UMass-Boston game was much anticipated, and a late PK miss by the Beacons gave ECSU an opportunity to nab a winner in the last minute, something they managed to do earlier in the year. Perhaps the difference was ECSU having just a tad more experience in big, tense affairs, and UMass-Boston will need to keep the implosion meter in check moving forward.
It was a crazy day in the NCAC as TennesseeJed detailed earlier. Denison fell from the unbeaten ranks with a surprising and potentially very damaging loss away at Allegheny, as the Gators, with only 3 total wins on the season find themselves in second place in the NCAC with a 2-0-1 ledger. Oberlin also will turn in tonight with regrets, outplaying Wabash at home but walking away with a 1-0 loss. The win by the Little Giants keeps their hopes alive of snagging the last NCAC playoff slot, and now Denison's trip to Crawfordsville mid-week could go a long way in determining each squad's fortunes (and Denison has Kenyon away after that). Speaking of Kenyon, the Lords were sluggish at Wooster, ended the 1st half at 0-0, found themselves down 1-0 3 minutes into the 2nd half, and then finally got on track for 6 straight goals. DePauw remained unblemished in conference play and sits top of the table in the NCAC, but Hiram provided resistance as the Tigers did not score until the 77th minute in a 1-0 game. And here comes OWU. The Battling Bishops are hitting stride and were inhospitable hosts to Wittenburg in a 6-0 slaughter-rule contest.
In the NJAC, Montclair flexed its muscle in a major match-up away at Rowan, taking a 2-1 victory. Kean suffered a costly slip in a 1-0 double OT loss to William Paterson. And Rutgers-Camden regrouped with a very comfortable conquest of Ramapo. Stockton and Rutgers-Newark ended 0-0.
If you didn't look at the scoreline you would think Messiah is Messiah...dominating possession and beautiful combination play, but the Falcons are still struggling in the final 3rd. They finally got the winner in OT for a deserved win over valiant Washington & Lee. The Messiah video production is first-rate, with excellent video, replays, and very astute and mostly fair commentary (wasn't always the case) aided by some guy named Flying Weasel.
We should rename the UAA "0-0 2nd OT". As I'm typing and watching Mexico go all Messiah on the good 'ol USA as Chicarito finishes, Chicago and Rochester are 1-1 in the 109th minute. Emory scored late to take a vital 1-0 win over Wash U. We'll have to see how much this missed chance to assert themselves hurts Wash U, already coming off a draw with Rochester. And yes, Chicago and UR end 1-1. CMU survived NYU 1-0. And tomorrow brings a UAA clash between Case and Brandeis that is bigger for Case than the Judges.
In the East region, there were a few results that may reverberate for a while. SLU lost to Hobart on an OT PK. Skidmore grabbed a key Liberty win 1-0 away at Vassar. Union smacked Bard 6-1. Plattsburgh earned a major, signature victory over Oneonta. Brockport nipped Geneseo 1-0.
In the late night headliner, Loras has disposed of rival Wartburg 2-0.
In other games of interest, Christopher Newport was held 0-0 by Frostburg, Virginia Wesleyan and Lynchburg drew, Maryville squeaked by NC Wesleyan in double OT, Lycoming only managed a tie with Arcadia, Drew beat Catholic, Stevens topped Alfred 2-1, Whitworht remained unbeaten with a win over Whitman, Dominican took the conference collision with MSOE, Macalester remained unbeaten with a come from behind win over St Thomas, and Eastern eased past Misericordia 2-0.
Thomas (ME) walloped Green Mountain by two touchdowns, 15-1.
Don't forget some great battles tomorrow, including Middlebury-Wesleyan, Brandeis-Case Western, and Colorado College-Trinity (TX).
Time to focus on the 2nd half of this Mexico-USA donnybrook.
:) :) :) :)
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 11, 2015, 09:36:23 AM
That Thomas coach should be slammed for beating Green Mountain 15-1. Someone should remind him that this is not D1 Football where your winning score helps your ranking. If ever there was anything to necessitate more meetings for a D4, Green Mountain is it.
Agree. That's why I included that game. Is Midd even scheduling Green Mtn almost as bad? Play a preseason scrimmage if you must.
I will admit I did thoroughly enjoy Messiah's video/audio production. Very well done and enjoyable to listen to. Congrats FW. First time I've had cause to listen in. Hoping that was the front half of a home/home and you guys will travel to Lex next year. It's a beautiful place to play a game and most of the construction in the athletic field area should be finished by then.
Wow. Trinity video looked incredible until they changed to different camera angle.
Check that. Video has a HD 720 option. Click on that if you don't get it automatically. Love the field level angle.
Beautiful soccer complex at Trinity (TX).
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 11, 2015, 09:36:23 AM
That Thomas coach should be slammed for beating Green Mountain 15-1. Someone should remind him that this is not D1 Football where your winning score helps your ranking. If ever there was anything to necessitate more meetings for a D4, Green Mountain is it.
107 GA vs 6 GF in 11 games @ Green Mountain!!! Maybe the GMC should take the program to club or something, yikes, ???, If I was the coach there, I would not want to see my kids getting beaten up every week like this, what is the purpose????
Quote from: ECSUalum on October 11, 2015, 01:32:23 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 11, 2015, 09:36:23 AM
That Thomas coach should be slammed for beating Green Mountain 15-1. Someone should remind him that this is not D1 Football where your winning score helps your ranking. If ever there was anything to necessitate more meetings for a D4, Green Mountain is it.
107 GA vs 6 GF in 11 games @ Green Mountain!!! Maybe the GMC should take the program to club or something, yikes, ???, If I was the coach there, I would not want to see my kids getting beaten up every week like this, what is the purpose????
It is demoralizing for players IMO. Not sure I know what the right answer is, but feel for the teams that are having to deal w/ strings of 1 or 0 vs. 5+ scores every game...awful way to participate, given all the work that these players have to put in during a season...
Colorado and Trinity heading to OT. 0-0. Oshkosh beats SSU 2-1.
Trinity wins with a good play and good goal in 2nd OT. Very well played game. Both teams played good possession and game was very open and up and down despite lack of scoring. Count Trinity as right there with Messiah in terms of offering very good video production, with good video, pretty good commentary, an interview with Coach McGinlay at halftime, etc. Trinity had the school advertisements at the half, before OT and between OT periods, and now I want to send a grandkid to Trinity (TX). Well done. Colorado College and Trinity now tied in the SCIAC.
Rutgers-Camden in deep trouble. Down 2-0 to Randolph pretty early on in 2nd half.
Now 3-0.
Camden outshot Randolph 28 to 18 but loses 3-0.
NCAC NE Top 25 (thru 10/11)
1) Amherst
2) F&M
3) Brandeis
4) Montclair St
5) Whitworth
6) Calvin
7) UW-Oshkosh
8) Thomas More
9) Christopher Newport
10) UW-Whitewater
11) Kenyon
12) Haverford
13) Plattsburgh
14) Trinity (TX)
15) Tufts
16) Loras
17) Oneonta St
18) Messiah
19) OWU
20) Eastern
21) E'town
22) Colorado College
23) Skidmore
24) DePauw
25) MIT
RV (not in order) -- Middlebury, Conn College, Macalester, Case Western, Carnegie Mellon, Emory, Oglethorpe, Kean, Lycoming, St Johns, ECSU, Dominican, St Scholastica, Wash U, Rochester, W&L, Randolph, PS-Behrend, Endicott, Drew, Redlands, Chicago, Johns Hopkins, UMass-Boston, Salisbury, Denison, RPI, SLU, Brockport, Buffalo St, Hobart, Vassar, Rowan, Texas-Dallas, Stevens, Gordon
Teams not-RV but don't forget about me -- Wheaton (Ill), North Park, Wesleyan, Williams, Occidental, Ohio Northern, Babson, WPI, Wheaton (MA), Roanoke, Lynchburg, Dickinson, KZoo, Wabash, Rutgers-Camden, Rutgers-Newark, Dubuque, Pacific Lutheran, Puget Sound, Union
Quote from: TennesseeJed on October 11, 2015, 02:37:27 PM
It is demoralizing for players IMO. Not sure I know what the right answer is, but feel for the teams that are having to deal w/ strings of 1 or 0 vs. 5+ scores every game...awful way to participate, given all the work that these players have to put in during a season...
Add to that list Wheelock College, who, according to its site, has not won a game in program history (program has been around since 2009.)
I agree, TennesseeJed, in that I have no solution but I genuinely feel for these kids and coaches. I would hate to think someone has said that "maybe these guys just aren't good enough to play at varsity level?", but at the same time I am a big believer of overcoming adversity and working hard to achieving a goal. Would make that first victory all the more sweet, but it's tough to see it coming when they're getting blown out 5-0, 6-0.
Second point: Programs that lose consistently are obviously in a bad place, but there's no need to completely blow them out 12-0. I realize I might sound like a high school parent, and I understand that collegiate athletics are non-compulsory, but age doesn't change my underlying message - going and blowing out an unsuccessful program 10+ to 0 is useless and classless in my book. Maybe I'm too much of an idealist, but while it pads your stats it ultimately has no more effect on the result than, say a 5-0 win. At that point, I personally would institute some kind of mitigating rule (10+ passes before a shot, shots from outside the box only, etc.) I'm not saying there has to be a specific "enough is enough" point, but just some decency would be great. It wouldn't make losing programs winning programs, but it would keep those kids from having their confidence suffer a complete beat-down every single time out.
NCAC, I'm flattered you think Oshkosh is deserving of the #7 spot on your list. Can I inquire as to why they make such a leap seeing as they are currently unranked?
Quote from: Wisco21 on October 11, 2015, 07:41:14 PM
NCAC, I'm flattered you think Oshkosh is deserving of the #7 spot on your list. Can I inquire as to why they make such a leap seeing as they are currently unranked?
Sure, I wasn't looking to see if they are unranked before doing my ranking. I formulated my ranking independently of the others, so it's not a projection of what I think will happen with the real rankings. I don't know much at all about Oshkosh, but my sense is that the UWs tend to be overlooked and/or underrated. I looked at their record and saw they are 11-1-2 with the only loss 2-1 opening day to Loras. Some cupcakes on the schedule for sure (which most ranked teams have) but also some very solid wins. I also have a sense that both Oshkosh and Whitewater are tough teams to beat and would represent themselves well in NCAA play. Conversely, you can blame the high ranking on the whiskey if you prefer ;).
I appreciate the Wisconsin loving New England! I too, think that Oshkosh should be ranked, but UWW has the crown as of right now. Realistically UWW will be somewhere in the top 10 and I think Oshkosh will be mid to high teens. I think this could be a year where both teams can make a case for the NCAA tournament, one with the pool B and the other with an at-large bid.
UWW 12-2 Key wins: MSOE, St. Olaf, Carthage, Loras. They do have one red flag in a loss to Concordia Wisconsin at home. Other loss came on the road at North Park.
UWO 10-1-2 Key wins: MSOE, North Park, St. Scholastica Only red flag is a tie at Willamette. Only loss was first game of the season at home to Loras, and the other tie was at Wheaton (which could carry more value than a win against a weak opponent)
Should point to mention that MSOE has dropped 2 in conference games, which could potentially keep them out of the "central regional rankings". North Park will more than likely jump in the central regional rankings at one time. Olaf and Carthage both have an outside chance to jump in the regional rankings when those come out, but I would think that those odds are rather slim.
So with that all being said,
UWW has 1 for sure regional win in Loras. Most likely 2 with MSOE, eventually.
Oshkosh has 1 in St. Scholastica, and more than likely North Park and the option with MSOE.
These teams will face October 24th up at Oshkosh. Obviously as we see, whoever wins would get not not only the regional win, but the head-to-head win. With all that being said, I think both teams are in a good position.
I transposed the two UWs mainly because Whitewater had the more recent loss, but obviously there is little difference between #7 and #10. Let's compare them to Kenyon who just a week was #1. Both UWs have more strong wins, as Kenyon only has a home win over a perhaps-not-so-great Carnegie Mellon and a decent road win over pretty average Centre.
Part of my algorithm is also a "how comfortable would you feel playing them?" factor. That's why I have Tufts, Loras, Messiah, OWU, etc higher than we may see in the regular polls, and if that was the only factor, I'd have them even higher. I may have a team like Thomas More a little high, but there has to be a merit factor as well, as TMC has played a very credible schedule and mostly come out quite favorably.
On a side topic, perhaps a few teams get a bit of a bump for name recognition, but there's also a reason why they have name recognition. I'd rather play some of the ranked teams than Wheaton (Ill), soon to be be unranked SLU, etc.
Current top 5 results of D3Soccer.com poll, with over 450 votes cast...
At the midpoint of the regular season, which men's conference has been the best (strongest, deepest, etc.) this year ?
Centennial (F&M, Haverford, Gettysburg, Dickinson, etc.) (82) - 18%
NCAC (Kenyon, Ohio Wesleyan, Denison, DePauw, etc.) (74) - 16%
NJAC (Montclair St., Rutgers-Camden, Kean, Rowan, etc.) (68) - 14%
UAA (Brandeis, Carnegie Mellon, Case Western, Washington U., etc.) (61) - 13%
NESCAC (Amherst, Tufts, Middlebury, Connecticut, etc.) (53) - 11%
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on October 12, 2015, 12:06:31 AM
Current top 5 results of D3Soccer.com poll, with over 450 votes cast...
At the midpoint of the regular season, which men's conference has been the best (strongest, deepest, etc.) this year ?
Centennial (F&M, Haverford, Gettysburg, Dickinson, etc.) (82) - 18%
NCAC (Kenyon, Ohio Wesleyan, Denison, DePauw, etc.) (74) - 16%
NJAC (Montclair St., Rutgers-Camden, Kean, Rowan, etc.) (68) - 14%
UAA (Brandeis, Carnegie Mellon, Case Western, Washington U., etc.) (61) - 13%
NESCAC (Amherst, Tufts, Middlebury, Connecticut, etc.) (53) - 11%
I'd go UAA, NCAC, Cen, NESCAC, NJAC
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 11, 2015, 07:06:55 PM
NCAC NE Top 25 (thru 10/11)
1) Amherst
2) F&M
3) Brandeis
4) Montclair St
5) Whitworth
6) Calvin
7) UW-Oshkosh
8) Thomas More
9) Christopher Newport
10) UW-Whitewater
11) Kenyon
12) Haverford
13) Plattsburgh
14) Trinity (TX)
15) Tufts
16) Loras
17) Oneonta St
18) Messiah
19) OWU
20) Eastern
21) E'town
22) Colorado College
23) Skidmore
24) DePauw
25) MIT
RV (not in order) -- Middlebury, Conn College, Macalester, Case Western, Carnegie Mellon, Emory, Oglethorpe, Kean, Lycoming, St Johns, ECSU, Dominican, St Scholastica, Wash U, Rochester, W&L, Randolph, PS-Behrend, Endicott, Drew, Redlands, Chicago, Johns Hopkins, UMass-Boston, Salisbury, Denison, RPI, SLU, Brockport, Buffalo St, Hobart, Vassar, Rowan, Texas-Dallas, Stevens, Gordon
Teams not-RV but don't forget about me -- Wheaton (Ill), North Park, Wesleyan, Williams, Occidental, Ohio Northern, Babson, WPI, Wheaton (MA), Roanoke, Lynchburg, Dickinson, KZoo, Wabash, Rutgers-Camden, Rutgers-Newark, Dubuque, Pacific Lutheran, Puget Sound, Union
I like it. Don't know if I would have Haverford that high but definitely top 20 in my book. 12 is just a hair too high I think. Also, I don't think Messiah should be top 25 at the moment. Maybe switch Eastern and Haverford's spots and take out Messiah and put Case Western in and then it's spot on! ;) ;D Well done though.
Anyone know, or know where to find out how websites like Hero and Massey rank the teams the way they do? Which of these (I'm sure there is more) are the most reliable?
Who sneaks on the new rankings coming out tomorrow? Seems like a good number of teams toward the bottom of the top 25 have dropped games over the last week. Should see some new faces.
Quote from: TheSwayzeTrain on October 12, 2015, 11:08:18 PM
Anyone know, or know where to find out how websites like Hero and Massey rank the teams the way they do? Which of these (I'm sure there is more) are the most reliable?
Who sneaks on the new rankings coming out tomorrow? Seems like a good number of teams toward the bottom of the top 25 have dropped games over the last week. Should see some new faces.
Here's some info on Massey to get you started: http://www.masseyratings.com/theory/index.htm.
Quote from: TheSwayzeTrain on October 12, 2015, 11:08:18 PM
Anyone know, or know where to find out how websites like Hero and Massey rank the teams the way they do? Which of these (I'm sure there is more) are the most reliable?
Who sneaks on the new rankings coming out tomorrow? Seems like a good number of teams toward the bottom of the top 25 have dropped games over the last week. Should see some new faces.
Massey seems to be the more accurate and therefore reliable source as compared to the Bennett rankings(Hero).
D3 Soccer Top 25 Poll
Through games of Sunday, October 11, 2015
# School (1st Pl. Votes) Record Pts. Prev.
1 Franklin & Marshall (15) 12-0-0 982 1
2 Amherst (5) 10-0-0 956 2
3 Montclair State 13-1-0 860 5
4 Brandeis 10-1-1 859 3
5 Kenyon 9-1-0 854 4
6 Calvin 12-0-1 718 8
7 Whitworth 10-0-1 714 7
8 Trinity (Texas) 11-2-0 696 10
9 Christopher Newport 9-0-4 680 6
10 UW-Whitewater 12-2-0 603 11
11 Elizabethtown 11-1-1 564 12
12 Carnegie Mellon 8-2-1 542 13
13 Thomas More 10-1-1 488 17
14 Eastern 11-0-1 458 19
15 Plattsburgh State 11-1-2 444 20
16 Denison 9-1-1 381 9
17 DePauw 8-1-2 349 24
18 Texas-Dallas 11-1-1 313 —
19 Oneonta State 9-3-1 311 14
20 Loras 7-3-1 299 22
21 Eastern Connecticut 10-2-1 215 15
22 Tufts 6-3-1 192 25
23 UW-Oshkosh 10-1-2 183 —
24 Connecticut College 8-2-1 103 —
25 Messiah 8-3-1 99 —
Dropped out: No. 16 RPI, No. 18 Rutgers-Camden, No. 21 St. Lawrence, No. 23 Kean
Receiving Votes: MIT 70, RPI 62, Haverford 46, Kean 44, Case Western Reserve 44, Middlebury 42, Ohio Wesleyan 38, Stevens 36, Mass-Boston 30, Rowan 26, St. Lawrence 20, Emory 18, Salisbury 14, Brockport State 12, Keuka 12, Cabrini 10, Occidental 10, Skidmore 8, Colorado College 6, Penn State-Behrend 6, Endicott 4, Macalester 4, Lycoming 4, Hobart 2
So, roughly in order of placement, compared to new D3 poll, I have Haverford, OWU, Colorado College, Skidmore, and MIT IN, and D3 instead has Carnegie Mellon, Denison, Tex-Dallas, ECSU, and Conn Coll.
Head to head that would result in:
Haverford vs CMU
OWU vs Denison
Colorado College vs Tex-Dallas
Skidmore vs ECSU
MIT vs Conn College
Interesting how that sort of lined up with regional or near-regional match-ups.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 13, 2015, 09:59:42 AM
So, roughly in order of placement, compared to new D3 poll, I have Haverford, OWU, Colorado College, Skidmore, and MIT IN, and D3 instead has Carnegie Mellon, Denison, Tex-Dallas, ECSU, and Conn Coll.
Head to head that would result in:
Haverford vs CMU
OWU vs Denison
Colorado College vs Tex-Dallas
Skidmore vs ECSU
MIT vs Conn College
Interesting how that sort of lined up with regional or near-regional match-ups.
As I said yesterday, you were pretty spot on. Well done!!!
National Poll for 10/13
http://www.nscaa.com/rankings/4643 (http://www.nscaa.com/rankings/4643)
Well, as a long-time critic of the NSCAA's rigid national rankings (which for many years inflexibly placed the regional #1's in spots 1 thru 8, the #2's in spots 9 thru 16 and so on and only in the past couple years allowed some exceptins to that framework, but not too much), let me say that this week's rankings are a welcomed break from that past as they mixed things up a bit.
New England: #2, #7, #21
East: #12, #20, #22
Mid-Aatlantic: #1, #8, #16
South Atlantic: #5, #13, #25
Great Lakes: #6, #9, #19
Central: #3, #18, #24
North: #11, #14, #17, #23
West: #4, #10, #15
Now they still have regional balance in how many teams are included, but the order was more flexible than I have ever seen Now maybe they have been like this previously this year as I haven't paid close attention thus far.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 13, 2015, 11:52:24 AM
...which for many years inflexibly placed the regional #1's in spots 1 thru 8, the #2's in spots 9 thru 16 and so on
What?! Thankfully I've not been around the game long enough to have been around for that, but I would have been pulling my hair out. #antilogic
Surprised that Brandeis' home tie with previously unranked MIT - who I think deserves its top 25 spot - didn't drop it more than one spot. FW, maybe you know: how much does a tie against a lesser-ranked (or nationally unranked) team generally hurt a team's ranking? I only ask because I overheard a Tufts player and his parents talking after the Brandeis game, saying that "a tie would have been fine [in terms of ranking, but the loss means that we'll go down quite a bit.]" I can very much understand a loss having crippling effects, but I still don't fully understand the effect a tie has.
Intersting to note that North Park made the NSCAA national rankings but didn't even get a vote in the D3soccer.com poll. I'm not sure I'd have them in my Top 25, but still surprising no one gave them a vote as their 25th or 24th team, especially when looking over who did get votes.
Similarly you'd think that beating Trinity once (3-1 at home) and taking them to double overtime in San Antonio the next time would have gotten Colorado more support. Again, I'm not sure I'd pick them in my Top 25, but figured more might have done so as one of their last couple team on their ballot.
Quote from: blooter442 on October 13, 2015, 12:12:31 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 13, 2015, 11:52:24 AM
...which for many years inflexibly placed the regional #1's in spots 1 thru 8, the #2's in spots 9 thru 16 and so on
What?! Thankfully I've not been around the game long enough to have been around for that, but I would have been pulling my hair out. #antilogic
But you have. The first NSCAA rankings this year on September 15 (http://www.nscaa.com/rankings/4323/NCAADivisionIII/men/National/Poll1) broke down exactly like that:
New England: #1, #10, #19, #25
East: #8, #13, #21
Mid-Aatlantic: #4 #11, #22
South Atlantic: #7, #9, #18
Great Lakes: #3, #12, #17
Central: #5, #15, #24
North: #6, #14, #23
West: #2, #16, #20
Each region had one team in the top eight (#1 - #8), one team in the next eight (#9 - #16), and one more in following eight (#17 - #24) with New Engalnd getting a fourth team in at #25. No regional #2 is ahead of any other region's #1 ranked team, and no regional #3 is ahead of any other region's #2 team. That was this year and that breakdown is not coincidence. This is what the NSCAA has been doing for decades. There is no NSCAA national poll. No one votes nationally for the NSCAA rankings. Coaches vote regionally for the regional rankings and then somehow they concoct this national ranking (misnamed a national poll) from the regional polling.
Just keeps getting worse for RPI. In the Top 10 to not even receiving votes in two polls and next up on their schedule is @ St. Lawrence. Tough times in Troy at the moment.
FW, maybe the committee is remembering North Park's waning form in the second half of last year. They lost to 1W-10L North Central (Ill.) at home this past Saturday.
In 2014, NPU goes 9W-1L in first half of season, and 4W-4L-1T in the second half, ending with a 2OT loss to Thomas More College in the NCAA first round.
I hope this is a just a conference fluke and they will recover, because after seeing them play live earlier this season.....boy, were they a fun group to watch.
Quote from: blooter442 on October 13, 2015, 12:12:31 PM
Surprised that Brandeis' home tie with previously unranked MIT - who I think deserves its top 25 spot - didn't drop it more than one spot. FW, maybe you know: how much does a tie against a lesser-ranked (or nationally unranked) team generally hurt a team's ranking? I only ask because I overheard a Tufts player and his parents talking after the Brandeis game, saying that "a tie would have been fine [in terms of ranking, but the loss means that we'll go down quite a bit.]" I can very much understand a loss having crippling effects, but I still don't fully understand the effect a tie has.
The tie obviously helped MIT more than it helped Brandeis but you also have to remember Brandeis turned around and got a 2-1 away win at then #16 Case Western this week as well. That must have been why there was not a drastic drop after a second blemish on their record. Ties are an interesting result as it gives both the team 1/2 the points in their win percentage and barley changes either teams SOS or record. NSCAA doesn't seem too worried about SOS in their regional rankings and are more concerned at overall record. See the New England Rankings as an example
Discount Double Check...
http://herosports.com/college-rankings/d3-mens-soccer-rankings/
NESCAC rated as the 11th strongest conference.
See who rounds out the top 5.
I'm no NESCAC fan, but what?!?!? Normally these mathematical rankings exaggerate the strength of the NESCAC and UAA. 11th? Beaten by a conference that doesn't even exist anymore! And why again should I give Bennett/Hero the time of day?
York could be stealing an at large bid if they win the CAC. Definitely within reach as crazier things have happened.
Quote from: NERevs127 on October 13, 2015, 01:16:46 PM
The tie obviously helped MIT more than it helped Brandeis but you also have to remember Brandeis turned around and got a 2-1 away win at then #16 Case Western this week as well. That must have been why there was not a drastic drop after a second blemish on their record. Ties are an interesting result as it gives both the team 1/2 the points in their win percentage and barley changes either teams SOS or record. NSCAA doesn't seem too worried about SOS in their regional rankings and are more concerned at overall record. See the New England Rankings as an example
Good point, I didn't realize that Case was in the top 20. A second away win at a nationally-ranked opponent for the Judges. They struggled against Mass. Maritime tonight, 1-0, but to be fair to the Judges the visitors showed no ambition and put 10 behind the ball pretty much the whole game so were tough to break down. Chicago and WashU will be good tests this weekend, and will give an excellent indication of where they really are.
You're correct that NSCAA doesn't really seem worried about SOS. That is one thing that bothers me and - me being relatively new (~5 years) to D3 soccer in particular - FW made clear earlier today that there are
still some rigid protocols in place in determining rankings. But that's for another post.
Quote from: Golden_Fan on October 13, 2015, 11:36:05 AM
National Poll for 10/13
http://www.nscaa.com/rankings/4643 (http://www.nscaa.com/rankings/4643)
Other than maybe their win vs Rutgers-Camden how does Salisbury make the NSCAA poll? Carthage as well with 4 losses!! The teams in the D3 poll with 3 losses, Oneonta, Loras, Tufts and Messiah, (none with 4 losses) are all legit IMHO ???
Quote from: ECSUalum on October 13, 2015, 09:44:43 PM
Quote from: Golden_Fan on October 13, 2015, 11:36:05 AM
National Poll for 10/13
http://www.nscaa.com/rankings/4643 (http://www.nscaa.com/rankings/4643)
Other than maybe their win vs Rutgers-Camden how does Salisbury make the NSCAA poll? Carthage as well with 4 losses!! The teams in the D3 poll with 3 losses, Oneonta, Loras, Tufts and Messiah, (none with 4 losses) are all legit IMHO ???
Very true re: Salisbury, but how does the "new Salisbury," Carnegie Mellon, get voted in at #12 in the D3 poll, and, probably correctly, not even be in the RV category in the NSCAA poll? I wouldn't have Carthage in either, but they are 4-0 or 5-0 in their conference and just beat Wheaton (Ill).
Maybe I'll just shut up on the polls and let the season play out!! But sometimes this far into the season you have to start to wonder a little why more deserving teams don't get a little love, or why some teams can have all types of blemishes and still hold rank!
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 13, 2015, 09:57:17 PM
Quote from: ECSUalum on October 13, 2015, 09:44:43 PM
Quote from: Golden_Fan on October 13, 2015, 11:36:05 AM
National Poll for 10/13
http://www.nscaa.com/rankings/4643 (http://www.nscaa.com/rankings/4643)
Other than maybe their win vs Rutgers-Camden how does Salisbury make the NSCAA poll? Carthage as well with 4 losses!! The teams in the D3 poll with 3 losses, Oneonta, Loras, Tufts and Messiah, (none with 4 losses) are all legit IMHO ???
Very true re: Salisbury, but how does the "new Salisbury," Carnegie Mellon, get voted in at #12 in the D3 poll, and, probably correctly, not even be in the RV category in the NSCAA poll? I wouldn't have Carthage in either, but they are 4-0 or 5-0 in their conference and just beat Wheaton (Ill).
Getting a little sloppy NCAC, Carthage is 2-0 in conference with wins over North Central (Ill.) and Illinois Wesleyan ;). They play Wheaton (Ill.) tomorrow. I don't know how or why Carthage is even being considered in the national rankings over some other teams, only results I see worth mentioning is a 2-1 victory over Wash U and a 1-1 draw with UChicago. Can only see them being CCIW AQ or bust, 5 blemishes is pushing it a little for Pool C.
Quote from: Wisco21 on October 13, 2015, 10:55:12 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 13, 2015, 09:57:17 PM
Quote from: ECSUalum on October 13, 2015, 09:44:43 PM
Quote from: Golden_Fan on October 13, 2015, 11:36:05 AM
National Poll for 10/13
http://www.nscaa.com/rankings/4643 (http://www.nscaa.com/rankings/4643)
Other than maybe their win vs Rutgers-Camden how does Salisbury make the NSCAA poll? Carthage as well with 4 losses!! The teams in the D3 poll with 3 losses, Oneonta, Loras, Tufts and Messiah, (none with 4 losses) are all legit IMHO ???
Very true re: Salisbury, but how does the "new Salisbury," Carnegie Mellon, get voted in at #12 in the D3 poll, and, probably correctly, not even be in the RV category in the NSCAA poll? I wouldn't have Carthage in either, but they are 4-0 or 5-0 in their conference and just beat Wheaton (Ill).
Getting a little sloppy NCAC, Carthage is 2-0 in conference with wins over North Central (Ill.) and Illinois Wesleyan ;). They play Wheaton (Ill.) tomorrow. I don't know how or why Carthage is even being considered in the national rankings over some other teams, only results I see worth mentioning is a 2-1 victory over Wash U and a 1-1 draw with UChicago. Can only see them being CCIW AQ or bust, 5 blemishes is pushing it a little for Pool C.
You're right, Wisco. I knew someone beat Wheaton that was unexpected so when I saw the ranking I assumed I had read Carthage. Got to be more vigilant. Hopefully the love for the UWs will buy me at least another week to redeem myself.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 13, 2015, 09:57:17 PM
Quote from: ECSUalum on October 13, 2015, 09:44:43 PM
Quote from: Golden_Fan on October 13, 2015, 11:36:05 AM
National Poll for 10/13
http://www.nscaa.com/rankings/4643 (http://www.nscaa.com/rankings/4643)
Other than maybe their win vs Rutgers-Camden how does Salisbury make the NSCAA poll? Carthage as well with 4 losses!! The teams in the D3 poll with 3 losses, Oneonta, Loras, Tufts and Messiah, (none with 4 losses) are all legit IMHO ???
Very true re: Salisbury, but how does the "new Salisbury," Carnegie Mellon, get voted in at #12 in the D3 poll, and, probably correctly, not even be in the RV category in the NSCAA poll? I wouldn't have Carthage in either, but they are 4-0 or 5-0 in their conference and just beat Wheaton (Ill).
CMU at #12 in the D3 poll was the biggest surprise for me in the two polls today. The Brandeis loss definitely hurt Case, as the Oberlin tie might have as well, but I'd take case over cmu in a head to head game. Kudos to CMU for the W, but a 1-0 result vs nyu wasn't a great showing at home for the Tartans in my book. I would also have Tufts in my top 25, where I thought the d3 poll was more in line with my own ranking but after reading FW's fascinating comments on the NSCAA methodology, I think I now understand why Tufts would be less likely to be a top 25 team in NSCAA.
FW, thanks for shedding some light into the NSCAA rankings. Disappointed to learn some of the shortcomings in process/methodology but glad to have the perspective. Definitely makes some things about the coaches polls and rankings that didn't always make sense a bit easier to understand.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 13, 2015, 08:54:33 PM
York could be stealing an at large bid if they win the CAC. Definitely within reach as crazier things have happened.
It could happen but I doubt it will. Realistically they need 2 wins to clinch a playoff spot which would put them at 16 points and all but guarantee them in the top 6. With 2 of their remaining games against Marymount and Southern Virginia I can't see them not making playoffs. Once they are in anything can happen, but I think (depending on how the seeding shapes up) that having to go through 2 of he big 3 in Frostburg, Newport, and Salisbury will be too much for the Spartans.
CNU was the #5 seed last year in the CAC at 4-2-3 (15pts) and won the conference playoff. Overall record of 19-3-5 and ended up losing in the Elite 8. They have yet to lose this year through 13 games and all though the tie by York is a great result, I don't see them knocking CNU off come playoff time.
But as you said, crazier things have happened!!!
Quote from: ECSUalum on October 13, 2015, 09:44:43 PM
Quote from: Golden_Fan on October 13, 2015, 11:36:05 AM
National Poll for 10/13
http://www.nscaa.com/rankings/4643 (http://www.nscaa.com/rankings/4643)
Other than maybe their win vs Rutgers-Camden how does Salisbury make the NSCAA poll? Carthage as well with 4 losses!! The teams in the D3 poll with 3 losses, Oneonta, Loras, Tufts and Messiah, (none with 4 losses) are all legit IMHO ???
I agree with you 100%! I mentioned in another topic forum about "How the heck is Salisbury ranked?!?!?!" And Carthage being ranked is a joke. If you have a 4 loss team in at this point it better be someone like the above teams mentioned. Those were my 2 frustrations this week. CMU is ranked a little high but the same could be said around the board for team X and team Y etc.
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 14, 2015, 08:36:01 AM
Quote from: ECSUalum on October 13, 2015, 09:44:43 PM
Quote from: Golden_Fan on October 13, 2015, 11:36:05 AM
National Poll for 10/13
http://www.nscaa.com/rankings/4643 (http://www.nscaa.com/rankings/4643)
Other than maybe their win vs Rutgers-Camden how does Salisbury make the NSCAA poll? Carthage as well with 4 losses!! The teams in the D3 poll with 3 losses, Oneonta, Loras, Tufts and Messiah, (none with 4 losses) are all legit IMHO ???
That's crazy.....
I agree with you 100%! I mentioned in another topic forum about "How the heck is Salisbury ranked?!?!?!" And Carthage being ranked is a joke. If you have a 4 loss team in at this point it better be someone like the above teams mentioned. Those were my 2 frustrations this week. CMU is ranked a little high but the same could be said around the board for team X and team Y etc.
Good game going at Kenyon with Oberlin. 0-0 at half. Kenyon could be up 3-0 but then again Oberlin could be up 2-0. Kenyon is pressuring high and mostly dominating possession, spending a minute or more on attack in the Oberlin half, pushing everyone forward but that is leaving a lot of space for Oberlin on the counter and Oberlin easily could be ahead. Oberlin more athletic than in the past and to their credit able to hang with Kenyon without packing in. Oberlin also skilled and plays a nice possession style when they can get a hold of the ball. Kenyon's style is tough when they don't score and get ahead. They're expending so much energy pressing and on the offensive end that they look vulnerable after they lose the ball. Will be interesting second half, especially if the Lords don't score early or if Oberlin scores first. Both GKs have been forced to make some good saves, with Oberlin GK forced to make a few more.
Messiah, trailing 1-0 to a second-half Lycoming goal, is looking about as good as Lycoming's free non-HD video stream. By the excitement level of the announcers voice, Lycoming could have scored three already in the second half (hard to judge for myself given the poor video quality). One off the crossbar, I think. One cleared off the line, I think.
Kenyon 1-0 Final vs. Oberlin. Kenyon dominated most of 1H, outshooting Yeomen almost 4-1 through 2/3 of the first half. Yeomen came on much more strongly at end of half, making some credible attacks but unable to convert. Lords entered 2H strongly, but Oberlin team showed real determination in 2H to even the score after a Lords go ahead goal by Amolo. Yeomen stronger in 2h than 1h and pretty even w/ Lords in attacks and possession but not able to match Lords on shots. 1-0 final. Agree w/ NCACNE. Could have been higher scoring game on both sides. Would like to have seen Lords convert one or two more, but congrats on the W. Star of game IMO was the Yeomen's freshman GK who made some fantastic saves in both halves. Oberlin goes to 7-5-1. Kenyon 10-1-0.
Meanwhile, Wabash and Denison battling to a 0-0 draw at end of regulation play heading into OT.
Messiah down 2-0 with 10 to play. Well, if it wasn't already off the table, a loss today certainly removes all chance of an at-large berth. This was the only remaining chance for a win versus a potentially ranked team (of course, the catch-22 being that a win would have reduced the chances Lycoming is ranked). Conference champs or bust at this point.
UPDATE: It's a final from Williamsport, PA. Lycoming 2, Messiah 0.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 14, 2015, 05:41:52 PM
Messiah down 2-0 with 10 to play. Well, if it wasn't already off the table, a loss today certainly removes all chance of an at-large berth. This was the only remaining chance for a win versus a potentially ranked team (of course, the catch-22 being that a win would have reduced the chances Lycoming is ranked). Conference champs or bust at this point.
UPDATE: It's a final from Williamsport, PA. Lycoming 2, Messiah 0.
Yes FW you are correct. One off the cross bar from 18 out and then another one saved off the goal line from a corner kick. Could have easily been 4-0. Messiah's fitness level dropped in the second half. The first half was fairly even but the second half was all Lycoming. Lycoming is for real as I have been saying since I have seen their game vs Rochester. They didn't score that game but owned UR.Same thing tonight except they owned for a half not the entire game but found a way to score. Both teams are very very good.
Box Score: Messiah vs Lycoming
Team Statistics
Statistic 1 2 T
SHOTS
MESSM 5 8 13 (5)
LYCOM 4 10 14 (6)
SAVES
MESSM 1 3 4
LYCOM 2 3 5
CORNER KICKS
MESSM 0 1 1
LYCOM 3 2 5
OFFSIDES
MESSM 0 0 0
LYCOM 1 0 1
() Shots On Goal.
DePauw trailing Wittenberg 1-2 with 17' left in 2H.
Some stunning results today...
Lycoming beating Messiah, and the way described, may not be a surprise to some but it's still stunning for the result to come to fruition.
Kean is up 3-0 on Montclair late.
DePauw was losing to Wittenberg but last I checked was 2-2.
Bridgewater State beat Wheaton at Wheaton 2-0.
Midd, after losing last year to Castleton, barely beats Castleton 2-1.
In other news, St Johns got big win over GAC and St Thomas beat St Olaf. Oneonta handled Hamilton. OWU is hammering Wooster 7-0 with time left.
DePauw going OT.
Salisbury tied 0-0 today against Marymount. I guess that means they will move up 5 spots in the next poll ;D
NJAC is total chaos. Any of the 6 that make it will have a legit shot to win the AQ. Slowly working it's way to a 2 bid league. The Kean result was a total shocker. Haven't looked at the box score yet, but I'm guessing the tall target, Kherlopian had a brace.
CAC, IMO is between CNU and York.
Yeah, that Kean-Montclair scoreline was a shocker. Given Kean's results to date, a close game going either way wouldn't have been a shocker, 3-0 to Kean!!! FIrst goal was a PK in the first half. Stats favored MSU slightly. It continues to be a wild and crazy season.
Great job as usual on the NCAA rankings process. One quibble would be that I haven't seen anyone pooh pooh the national rankings. Points were made about their lack of relevance for the NCAA regional rankings, but otherwise there has been more buzz, interest, and posting around the national and regional rankings each week than the last few years, including a good number of posters predicting and/or offering their own suggestions regarding the weekly rankings.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 14, 2015, 05:41:52 PM
Messiah down 2-0 with 10 to play. Well, if it wasn't already off the table, a loss today certainly removes all chance of an at-large berth. This was the only remaining chance for a win versus a potentially ranked team (of course, the catch-22 being that a win would have reduced the chances Lycoming is ranked). Conference champs or bust at this point.
UPDATE: It's a final from Williamsport, PA. Lycoming 2, Messiah 0.
FW,
The only other team that the Falcons have left that
could be ranked is Arcadia who is sitting at 8-3-3 (2-0-2). They lost to F&M 4-0 then lost to Eastern 3-2 in OT the next day after having a 2-0 lead. Lost at Kings 2-1. They have tied Marywood, Alvernia and Lycoming. Only good win is probably Misericordia who is struggling this year. Alvernia and Lycoming ties are good. Depending on how bad the Centennial teams beat each other up they might slip into the #9 or #10 spot in the region. Unlikely IMO but there is a glimmer of hope for that and the Messiah faithful. Especially if they finish 12-4-3 with Messiah being the other loss...they could sneak in to the 10 spot.
Also if Messiah finishes 13-4-1 as I expect them to, or maybe 12-4-2, win the semi-final playoff game and lose in the final and finish 14-5-1 do you think they have any chance of getting in? I mean we saw Dickinson not win a game in
literally the final month of the season and somehow make the tournament with an 11-5-2 record. I think Messiah's name carries a lot of weight that people are under estimating. I would take a 14-5-1 Messiah team over an 11-5-2 Dickinson team any year. Just curious on your thoughts!
Well, regarding Arcadia, it's that catch-22. If Messiah beats them to get the win versus ranked, they reduce Arcadia's chances to be ranked. I can't see Arcadia being ranked if they lose to Messiah, can you?
I am wholely convinced after closely following and studying the rankings and at-large selections for over a decade that name recognition has not gotten anybody an at-large berth. Messiah would be the ultimate test of that, as there is no bigger name, but the committee has shown themselves to be very quantitative/numbers-driven in their approach and selections. In my opinion, they let the numbers decide too much at the expense of human discernment and judgment. But most of the criteria laid out in the manual for them to apply can be quantified. However, I would argue that the manual says those are the things to consider, it doesn't say they must select the team with the higher SOS, or greater number of wins versus ranked teams (are two wins against the #7 and #8 teams more impressive than a single win versus the #2 team in the region?), etc. But by making it as quantitative as possible, they can much more easily explain and defend their selections. Heck, it can make the decision-making process quicker and easier. Anyway, I don't see Messiah's name helping them unless they are in a tie-breaker for the last at-large berth. And even then, that situation could go either way. Maybe some committee members are sick and tired of Messiah's dominance and would go with the other team in a tie-break situation. Right now, it's hard to see Messiah's numbers (win pct., SOS, and wins vs. ranked) getting them positioned to even be in the discussion for at-large berths. But we will know soon enough with the regional rankings letting us know where they stand in the eyes of the committee.
Like I said that would put Arcadia at 12-4-3 so possibly but I doubt it. Think they will end up around 11 or 12 and won't make the top 8. Too many other teams that can jump them like Kings who has the win over Arcadia etc... As for name recognition the only team I can think of is Rochester. They were like 8-5-3 and made it one year I think? But other than that you are right. And I think it is great to have Messiah in the tournament. Are people sick of them? Probably. But do people love to watch them(whether it's to hope they lose or to admire their style)? Yes. But at the end of the day it does come down to numbers. With how crazy everything has been I would not be surprised if they made it and I would not be surprised if they didn't make it. Messiah is now 0-4 vs potentially NCAA ranked/currently NSCAA ranked opponents. Not a favorable stat for them. Still have everything to play for though as the AQ leaves all of these discussions in the dust if they win that.
There is no way Messiah is getting a Pool C. They must get the AQ as that league is most certainly a one-bid league unless Lycoming losses in Final.
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 15, 2015, 01:30:11 PM
There is no way Messiah is getting a Pool C. They must get the AQ as that league is most certainly a one-bid league unless Lycoming losses in Final.
Dominican: 14-5-2 / .545 SOS / 1-3-0 vs. Ranked (Last Year)
Messiah: 14-5-1/ ? / 0-4-0 vs Ranked
Dominican got in with this resume last year...wouldn't count Messiah out if this is how they end up.
1-4 if Wash. Lee gets ranked which they probably will. 1-4-1 if Gettysburg sneaks in. If Randolph gets in it would be 2-4-1. I don't think Gettysburg will get in so they would have a best shot of 2-4 most likely scenario 1-4 because I don't think Randolph will get in either. Wash. Lee has the best chance. Then losses to CMU, Etown, Rowan, and Lyco. And if they lose to Lyco again then that would be a 5th loss but we don't see that poll.
Keep in mind that CMU is sitting at #9 right now in the region so if they somehow drop out that takes away a loss for Messiah and they would be 0-3-0 and if Wash. Lee gets in then they would be the exact same 1-3-0 like Dominican with a bigger name. Just saying it could happen. Will it? I don't know. But it definitely could so to say there is 0% chance is asinine.
Well done Ryan on the column.
Interesting new poll, although I can't imagine how anyone could really figure out who to vote for.
Strength of conference, recruiting resources, improvement on W-L record...
Lycoming was somewhat already there. Kean has been the biggest shocker to me.
When they played Kenyon last year or two years ago, did you watch, NCAC?
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 16, 2015, 04:56:36 PM
Interesting new poll, although I can't imagine how anyone could really figure out who to vote for.
I haven't been updating the poll as quickly as it should be updated (too much to do, too little time, and sometimes no inspiration for a new poll topic). Thinking out-loud, that would be a nice assignment to be able to pass off to someone wanting to help us out with the site with a very low time/effort commitment. Wold only require coming up with a new poll once a week (could be more often) and e-mailing it to me. Anybody?
Anyway, not sure really what I expected with this poll in terms of reaction and response. I see the polls serving one or more of the following purposes:
(1) fun/entertainment/friendly debate for the fans,
(2) to get fan opinion/feedback (a survey), and
(3) to inform/educate fans.
So, with this poll, by throwing out so many names, maybe some options will elicit the response "Why are they on this list?" and maybe fans might look up that team's page and their record and results and previous seasons and in doing so learn something new. I was tempted to include a handful more names (Moe Taylor, PSU-Altoona; Gene Ventriglia, New Paltz St.; Corey Miller, Concordia (Tx.); Connor Erickson, Wentworth) which certainly would have been the types of names/schools that probably would have had many needing to look them up to see why they were included. I also considered shortening the list and providing a short reason for each coach's inclusion.
Many of these coaches probably have no chance to be regional or national coach of the year, but I find those awards don't bring to light all the exceptional coaching jobs done each year. And that's why I really would have liked to expand the list even further, but it was already probably too big.
Given Kean only had three winning seasons in the last eleven under Tony Ochrimenko* and never had more than ten wins in those eleven season, the job by Rob Irvine is definitely worthy of recognition having a winning debut season in 2014 with 12 wins and now this season already collecting 13 wins including big wins over recent NJAC top dogs Rutgers-Camden and Montclair St. They are on pace for their best season since 2001 or 2002, depending how they do down the stretch into November.
* he was very succesful form the late 80's to very early 2000's including the 1992 national title
Christan, I think maybe we're getting a little out of sync on wavelengths. No criticism intended. It is an excellent poll, thought-provoking, and interesting for the all the reasons you suggest. I was simply saying that because of the number of great choices I personally wouldn't know how to vote fairly. I assume many vote along partisan lines on many of the polls, but I personally try not to do that. That said, the poll will cause me to think about some of the choices more, and I know I'll pay more attention to some of teams of those coaches that I'm less familiar with. Anyway, as an example, I thought about Thomas More because I've been on to TMC since I saw them live twice last year, but the coach is new and inherited a really good team, so even though he's obviously doing a great job I'm not sure he's the best choice among all of them, and of course for me the lesson in some of these polls is that there may not be one right choice.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 16, 2015, 04:59:27 PM
Strength of conference, recruiting resources, improvement on W-L record...
Lycoming was somewhat already there. Kean has been the biggest shocker to me.
When they played Kenyon last year or two years ago, did you watch, NCAC?
OMG, yes! Like it was yesterday. The first in a series of trips to the Jay Martin complex over the course of 2 years, and in all seriousness, one of the great venues in D3 if you ever get a chance to see a game there.
Kean has to be a completely different team now, and of course their own coaching legend retired since then. Kean was athletic and physical and probably a little chippy....fit my image of a mid- to mid-lower table NJAC squad. Kenyon was very pumped up about starting the season (1st game of the year) and blending in a lot of the exciting new faces, like Amolo, Glassman, Lee, etc. Expectations were sky-high. Another frosh actually started instead of Amolo, and that was the last time that freshman started. A junior GK started, started the next game against Calvin, and Clougher came in at the half vs Calvin and started thereafter.
Kean scored first probably against the run of play, and then Kenyon tied the game late and had the momentum. In OT the Kean GK boomed a goal kick that bounced between one of our CBs and the junior GK and a Kean player got in between them and knocked an easy ball into the net. Really bad miscue to lose a game. The GK got one more half and the CB who came on as a sub, Ernst (now in med school), didn't get off the bench for a long stretch of games, started a few games mid-season due to an injury, and then sat again for a bunch of games until getting into the Wheaton round of 32 game and then starting against Messiah. Ernst went on to have a stellar senior season in tandem with Justice. I'm getting far afield from Kean, but the next day was critical as Kenyon played Calvin and was down 2-0 at the half. Vegter hit one of his lasers to score at least one of those. So basically in the second game of the season, after what felt like a brutal, fluky loss to Kean, Kenyon was at high risk of starting 0-2 and probably would not have made the NCAA tournament. Fortunately, Calvin likely was fatigued from playing OWU the night before in a really good game (although in fairness Kenyon had played into OT), and Kenyon came out smoking in the 2nd half to put 4 goals in on Calvin and won 4-2. Meanwhile, Kean played OWU in the nightcap and got blitzed 6-0. People tend to forget that OWU was ranked #1 most of that season and were a really great team that year.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 16, 2015, 04:59:27 PM
Strength of conference, recruiting resources, improvement on W-L record...
Lycoming was somewhat already there. Kean has been the biggest shocker to me.
When they played Kenyon last year or two years ago, did you watch, NCAC?
Not sure what you mean by "was somewhat already there."? Can you elaborate LG?
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 16, 2015, 06:49:43 PMChristan, I think maybe we're getting a little out of sync on wavelengths. No criticism intended.
And I never took it as criticism. Apologies if my reply left that impression. Your comment just gave me chance to chime in a little on the poll (and our polls in general).
Justin Serpone, Amherst
Mike Coven, Brandeis
Ryan Sounders, Calvin
Brandon Bianco, Case Western [strong candidate if don't falter in UAA cauldron]
Rob Russo, Denison [strong candidate if Denison gets NCAA bid]
Brad Hauter, DePauw
Mark Wagner, Eastern
Greg DeVito, Eastern Connecticut [felt ECSU expected to do pretty well in context of schedule and tradition]
Skip Roderick, Elizabethtown [great job and sentimental favorite?]
Dan Wagner, F&M
Shane Rineer, Haverford [strong candidate if strong season carries through for at least couple of NCAA games]
Rob Irvine, Kean
Chris Brown, Kenyon
Nate Gibboney, Lycoming [not a real surprise but dealing with Messiah factor huge]
Jake Beverlin, Mass-Boston
Ken Bovell, MIT [need to see a little more and another big win]
Todd Tumelty, Montclair St.
Chris Waterbury, Plattsburgh St.
Jeremiah Kneeland, Skidmore [see MIT]
Jason Hirsh, Texas-Dallas [weren't they right around in same spot last year?]
Eric Busener, Thomas More
Wytse Molenaar, UW-Oshkosh [give the nod over UWW's Guinn as UWW expected to be good I think and threat of program elimination]
Tony Guinn, UWW
So, I felt compelled to take a shot at this. I struck through coaches with teams expected to be top teams (Amherst, F&M, Brandeis, Kenyon, Calvin, Montclair, etc) and/or returning very good teams (TMC, etc) or who previously underperformed but now doing well (i.e. DePauw). Probably not fair as keeping a good thing going not easy, but got to cut down the list somehow. Some of the bolded ones are still on fence with their fates to be decided in next 2-3 weeks, so sort of in limbo on whether they've caught some luck, had favorable schedules thus far, etc. All that said, these my personal finalists at this point in time are as follows:
Molenaar for UW-O
Waterbury for Plattsburgh
Beverlin for UMass-Bos
Irvine for Kean
Wagner for Eastern
Gibboney for Lycoming
Rineer for Haverford
Roderick for Etown
Bianco for Case and/or Russo for Denison (contingent)
I personally can't get further than those 8-10, but I'd lean towards Molenaar, Waterbury, Irvine, and maybe Roderick, with Wagner for Eastern as the darkhorse.
RPI starts 8-0, with some high profile wins, and now 0-3-3 in last 6.
@ Christian Shirk, shout out and thanks for the great recent Regional Rankings piece on D3Soccer.com: http://www.d3soccer.com/columns/christan-shirk/2015/ncaa-regional-rankings-coming-next-week. Great info and links to NCAA info.
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 16, 2015, 07:23:12 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 16, 2015, 04:59:27 PM
Strength of conference, recruiting resources, improvement on W-L record...
Lycoming was somewhat already there. Kean has been the biggest shocker to me.
When they played Kenyon last year or two years ago, did you watch, NCAC?
Not sure what you mean by "was somewhat already there."? Can you elaborate LG?
Just meant because they made the tourney in 13 and had a great season last year. As a whole the Lycoming coach has done a great job, but My vote for coach is only the criteria I listed for this year alone. Kean was my choice with Thomas More second. Thomas More was solid last year, but they've had impressive wins this season...
http://scarletraptors.com/mobile/index.aspx?path=msoc
Says live video for MSU vs Rutgers
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 17, 2015, 12:22:07 PM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 16, 2015, 07:23:12 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 16, 2015, 04:59:27 PM
Strength of conference, recruiting resources, improvement on W-L record...
Lycoming was somewhat already there. Kean has been the biggest shocker to me.
When they played Kenyon last year or two years ago, did you watch, NCAC?
Not sure what you mean by "was somewhat already there."? Can you elaborate LG?
Just meant because they made the tourney in 13 and had a great season last year. As a whole the Lycoming coach has done a great job, but My vote for coach is only the criteria I listed for this year alone. Kean was my choice with Thomas More second. Thomas More was solid last year, but they've had impressive wins this season...
Okay I just didn't want to misinterpret that's all. Kean for sure but TMC wins their conference every year so I wouldn't have their coach at 2. Just my opinion.
MSU misses PK in 85th and scores a min later. RUC converts PK in 89th min... 1-1
Just another crazy NJAC masterpiece...3 goals last few minutes , missed PK's, Am I reading correctly that MSU had 2 Red's on the bench? Also, add another red card. Any fights?
Before I forget, want to note some of the big results today so far that may fly under the radar...
Endicott beats WNEC in OT to keep very impressive record intact.
Macalester nips rival Carleton.
Haverford continues streak beating Muhlenberg.
My new fave, UW-Osh gets cursed, losing to Platteville!
WPI and Babson keep trending down, both held to draws in conference.
Vassar loses RIT (I think it was RIT).
Gordon over Nichols.
W&L keeps winning in ODAC.
Rowan bounces back.
Ohio Northern quietly on long unbeaten streak.
KZoo has gradually recovered from very poor start and might almost be on the bubble and have a chance to climb on with a game with Calvin coming up.
Colby-Sawyer mimics Thomas (ME), walloping Green Mtn 14-0.
Loras vs Luther should be a good one tonight.
Forgot Eastern held to draw by DeSales.
Guess Whitworth didn't take kindly to drawing with George Fox. Already up 5-0 with a ton of time left.
OWU already smoking Allegheny 3-0 at the half.
Kean I believe has won a National Championship so it does not surprise what coach Irvine has done there as quickly as he does.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 16, 2015, 04:59:27 PM
Strength of conference, recruiting resources, improvement on W-L record...
Lycoming was somewhat already there. Kean has been the biggest shocker to me.
When they played Kenyon last year or two years ago, did you watch, NCAC?
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 17, 2015, 06:10:44 PM
Before I forget, want to note some of the big results today so far that may fly under the radar...
Endicott beats WNEC in OT to keep very impressive record intact.
Macalester nips rival Carleton.
Haverford continues streak beating Muhlenberg.
My new fave, UW-Osh gets cursed, losing to Platteville!
WPI and Babson keep trending down, both held to draws in conference.
Vassar loses RIT (I think it was RIT).
Gordon over Nichols.
W&L keeps winning in ODAC.
Rowan bounces back.
Ohio Northern quietly on long unbeaten streak.
KZoo has gradually recovered from very poor start and might almost be on the bubble and have a chance to climb on with a game with Calvin coming up.
Colby-Sawyer mimics Thomas (ME), walloping Green Mtn 14-0.
Loras vs Luther should be a good one tonight.
Forgot Eastern held to draw by DeSales.
CNU loses 2-0 to the overall 8-6-1 Wesley team, leaving them atop the CAC at 5-1-0 with Salisbury at 4-0-1, York at 4-1-1 and CNU 4th at 3-1-2.
Barber Shop Trash Talk: the pre-coming-down-the-home-stretch edition
Gather 'round the barber poll friends and foes, as we head down the backstretch of this compelling, thrill ride of a 2015 season.
We're down to 7 unbeatens, as powerhouse Christopher Newport fell to 8-6-1 Wesley. You could smell a loss coming for the Captains, as they left themselves dangling with too many draws, but who would have guessed Wesley? CNU now falls into my "teasing us" category (and more on that later). Only two unblemished squads remain -- Amherst and F&M, and at least on paper these two have perhaps created a little separation from the rest of the field. The Diplomats, ho-hum, earned yet another 1-0 victory, away against a hungry Hopkins side. The 'Fords of Haverford await. Meanwhile Amherst bided their time against Colby but earned a workmanlike 2-0 W and head to Sonnylistonville today to take on the Bates Bobcats who may be well-satisfied on the weekend already having sent home the defending champs with a hard-to-digest single point. Then there are Brandeis, Whitworth and Montclair saying not so fast regarding the top two. Brandeis just keeps winning (and watching clips of Charlie Sheen pre-game helps). If the Judges prevail today at home with Wash U -- are Wash U and Wesleyan really the same team, chronically losing 2OT games to play themselves off the NCAA bubble? -- Vegas puts the odds of Brandeis winning the UAA outright at about 97%. Whitworth doesn't like blemishes and the repayment for poor 'ol George Fox was a 6-0 spanking. And Montclair State -- are the NJAC games scripted and produced in affiliation with WWE? -- won a showcase match-up away with fierce rival Rutgers-Camden in OT after late missed and made PKs. Moving down just a half-hair, Calvin, who only seems to get mentioned in terms of a relatively weak schedule, just keeps minding their own business and WINNING on their way to yet another high seed in the NCAA tournament. Mark your calendar for the upcoming date with KZoo, though, as the latter want to use the Knights to climb into "you shouldn't have forgotten about me" status. Kenyon had probably the Lords' best week of the season, with impressive showings against rivals Oberlin and Denison, and with OWU storming down the tracks, we might as well have the Lords and Battling Bishops share the same spot in the new top 10 until they meet in Delaware. I regretfully have to downgrade the UWs after an all too brief love affair -- the UW-W version for sitting idle for 9 days, and UW-Osh for stumbling right after we put them center stage. What to do? Call up new girlfriend Thomas More who may be more than I can handle, and beg old trusted stand-bys, Loras, Oneonta State, and Trinity (TX), in that order, to come back home. Apologies in advance to Kean, Eastern, Elizabethtown, Plattsburgh, and Lycoming, as I just don't know you well enough yet, so you are advised to go about continuing to win, and love will find you down the line. What about Haverford, Case Western, Texas-Dallas, and Macalester from St Paul? Yes, I know, but just keep winning and you'll be fine.
Contenders or Pretenders?
Oh, what to do with SLU, Tufts, Wheaton (Ill), Messiah, DePauw and Middlebury? I really, really don't know, but please stay out of my team's bracket!
Sleepers who might deserve a little more hype?
Let's count Conn College, Brockport, MIT, Skidmore, Hobart, ECSU, UMass-Boston, Endicott, Eastern, Lycoming, Colorado College, Texas-Dallas, Oglethorpe, W&L, Randolph, Roanoke or Lynchburg, Ohio Northern, Macalester, St Johns, Redlands, Occidental, Maryville (TN), Stevens, St Scholastica, Dickinson (yes, Dickinson), King's and Springfield.
Bright lights that burned up on re-entry?
I'd say RPI, WPI, Denison and Gettysburg for starters. What about Rowan and the two Rutgers? And while they don't really fit the category, let's mention Williams, Wesleyan, Babson and Wheaton (MA).
Something I just can't figure out
The regulars here pretty much know who cheers for who, but where are the partisans for all of the other schools, including huge names like F&M, Trinity (TX), Christopher Newport, Haverford, Swat, Hopkins, Babson, Wheaton (MA), Ohio Northern, Calvin, the entire Pac NW, the ODAC (except for W&L guy), the SUNYAC and SAA (except when lastguy stands in), and the mightly NJAC (again, except for last guy), etc, etc, etc? How can F&M after 3 consecutive stellar seasons and a #1 ranking not have an identified fan (not counting that some of the Messiah faithful seem to adopt F&M as a family member given close proximity and the coach being a Messiah icon)? D3soccer.com is a great site and THE site for D3... so where are the rabid fans from like Thomas More?
Poll ideas
Top venues for playing and spectating, like Messiah,Trinity (TX), OWU, SLU, the Wheatons, Christopher Newports, Loras (football lines should disqualify but when it's the Rock Bowl we'll look the other way), and one or two of those ODACs. How about nice-looking and look-new places such as Wabash, Kzoo, and Hope? What's the best park in the NESCAC?
And what are the top video productions, which could have categories for best pure video stream and then best overall video production package? For the latter we know Messiah, Wheaton (Ill) and Trinity are a few of the very best, and for my free watching and just video I like KZoo.
A glance inside Keuka College
This is my pick for a closer look as they are one of our very proud remaining seven unbeatens.
Keuka (pronounced 'Coo-ka') College is in Keuka Park, NY on Keuka Lake in the Finger Lakes region of New York State and at the bottom of a triangle roughly equidistant from Rochester and Syracuse as the other coordinates. The campus sits right on the lake with beautiful vistas. The college is described as a spiritual (non-specific) liberal arts environment with heavy service and experiential components and very close collaborations with universities in China and Vietnam. The college highlights its curriculum as built around "The Field Period," which is a month long internship or self-guided personal experience that is required for each of a student's four years. 98% of students receive some type of financial assistance. The school also has graduate level programs in criminal justice, management, nursing and OT.
Keuka plays in the NEAC, where Morrisville State has been the top dog in soccer at least in recent years. Keuka used to be the "Storm," but in 2014 changed their name to the "Wolfpack." The Wolfpack are currently sitting at 10-0-2 and 7-0-1 in conference, and their showdown with Morrisville comes on the final day of regular season. The 'Pack were a solid 11-5-1 last season, led by the 2014 NCAA D3 (and maybe all divisions?) goal scoring leader, Austin Gerber, who had 26 goals and 6 assists for a total of 58 points on the season. Unfortunately for Keuka he has graduated but they are still having their finest season in program history. 3 players hail from Curacao. They are coached by Matt Tantalo, who is in his 11th season. Before coming to Keuka, he was an assistant at Syracuse and then the head ball coach (tip of cap to Steve Spurrier) at Elmira. He starred in his day at RIT, starting all 4 years and helping to lead RIT to an Elite 8 appearance in 1994. He led Keuka to its only NCAA appearance ever in 2007.
Keuka remains unbeaten...beat SUNY Poly 2-1.
HUGE weekend for Case. Just beat Rochester 1-0. UR should be done. Brandeis down 2-0 with about 10 min to go.
I was a little harsh with Wash U earlier today. The Bears are in much better shape than Wesleyan at 9-2-3 and 2-1-1. Should win next 2 comfortably and then maybe only need a win or a win and a draw with CMU, Case, and Chicago. CMU and Case are at home.
WashU beats Brandeis 2-0 - Judges' first home loss since October 12, 2013 against Rochester. Bears' first goal came 5' in on a mistake, goalkeeper came out to charge a shot where he should have stayed home, got chipped 1-0. Chaput hit the post for Brandeis less than 5' later and then had some decent chances but poor final ball and shot selection let the Judges down. Then WashU capitalized on the Judges' inability to finish with the killer second goal at around the 60th minute, wide-open header that seemingly went through the keeper. Brandeis had a couple chances down the stretch but never really threatened.
It wasn't a case of WashU playing well as much as Brandeis being poor. No offensive incisiveness and very poor shot selection. They're 12-2-1 and with all the parity this year I think they'll be fine but they need to get the offense in check if they have any hope of winning the UAA or matching their Elite Eight run of last year.
I'm not a big believer in karma, but perhaps this was the karmic retribution reverse of last year's Brandeis Midwest road trip. Last season, Judges won a game at WashU that they had no business winning, tying it in the last minute of regulation on an own goal and winning in OT, before losing at Chicago in a game that they absolutely dominated. This year, at home, they beat Chicago 1-0 in a game that the Maroons dominated, while losing to WashU in a game they should have scored at least once. Not a serious thing to read into, but just a fun fact. Another fun fact: I spotted Rui Pinheiro at the Brandeis-WashU game, according to their roster his brother is a freshman midfielder for the Bears, so that would explain his presence.
Elsewhere, Carnegie and Emory tie 1-1, Chicago gets a 3-0 win at NYU, and Rochester finally snaps its streak of draws and loses at Case Western. The UAA has a ton of parity, and with over half the games having been played the second half of the league season should be exciting.
NCAC NE Top 25 (thru 10/18)
1) Amherst (All 1st place votes)
2) Franklin & Marshall
3) Whitworth
4) Montclair State
5) Calvin
6) Thomas More
7) Kenyon
8) Brandeis
9) Haverford
10) Loras
11) Oneonta State
12) UW-Whitewater
13) Trinity (TX)
14) OWU
15) Plattsburgh
16) Elizabethtown
17) Kean
18) Lycoming
19) Case Western
20) Christopher Newport
21) Colorado College
22) Macalester
23) Ohio Northern
24) Middlebury
25) Wash U
RV (in order) -- Tufts, UW-Oshkosh, SLU, Wheaton (Ill), Eastern, MIT, DePauw, Messiah, Texas-Dallas, Dickinson, Brockport, Stockton, Washington & Lee, ECSU, Endicott, Hobart, Skidmore, Salisbury, Randolph, Roanoke, Oglethorpe, St Johns, St Scholastica, Stevens, John Carroll, Redlands, Maryville (TN), Springfield, Gordon
Watch List (no order) -- Williams, Wesleyan, Conn Coll, Carnegie Mellon, Chicago, Emory, Hopkins, UMass-Boston, Occidental, Penn State-Behrend, Rowan, Kalamazoo, Lynchburg, Birmingham-Southern, North Park, Concordia (WI), Denison/Oberlin, Knox, Rose-Hulman, King's, Cabrini, Westminster (MO), Dominican, RPI, WPI, Pacific Lutheran, Keuka, Rutgers C and N
Interesting top 25 as you have teams are haven't been ranked all year now ranked. Love to hear how you came up with this?
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 18, 2015, 08:39:44 PM
NCAC NE Top 25 (thru 10/18)
1) Amherst (All 1st place votes)
2) Franklin & Marshall
3) Whitworth
4) Montclair State
5) Calvin
6) Thomas More
7) Kenyon
8) Brandeis
9) Haverford
10) Loras
11) Oneonta State
12) UW-Whitewater
13) Trinity (TX)
14) OWU
15) Plattsburgh
16) Elizabethtown
17) Kean
18) Lycoming
19) Case Western
20) Christopher Newport
21) Colorado College
22) Macalester
23) Ohio Northern
24) Middlebury
25) Wash U
RV (in order) -- Tufts, UW-Oshkosh, SLU, Wheaton (Ill), Eastern, MIT, DePauw, Messiah, Texas-Dallas, Dickinson, Brockport, Stockton, Washington & Lee, ECSU, Endicott, Hobart, Skidmore, Salisbury, Randolph, Roanoke, Oglethorpe, St Johns, St Scholastica, Stevens, John Carroll, Redlands, Maryville (TN), Springfield, Gordon
Watch List (no order) -- Williams, Wesleyan, Conn Coll, Carnegie Mellon, Chicago, Emory, Hopkins, UMass-Boston, Occidental, Penn State-Behrend, Rowan, Kalamazoo, Lynchburg, Birmingham-Southern, North Park, Concordia (WI), Denison/Oberlin, Knox, Rose-Hulman, King's, Cabrini, Westminster (MO), Dominican, RPI, WPI, Pacific Lutheran, Keuka, Rutgers C and N
Quote from: backyarddawg on October 18, 2015, 09:44:45 PM
Interesting top 25 as you have teams are haven't been ranked all year now ranked. Love to hear how you came up with this?
Ask me about a particular team and I'll tell you why I put them there.
Amherst jump to #1?
Haverford 9? Not ranked in any polls and 3 blemishes.
Eastern out of top 25 - 12-0-2 and 1 of 8 unblemished teams.
Overall what's your criteria?
Quote from: backyarddawg on October 18, 2015, 10:37:33 PM
Amherst jump to #1?
Haverford 9? Not ranked in any polls and 3 blemishes.
Eastern out of top 25 - 12-0-2 and 1 of 8 unblemished teams.
Overall what's your criteria?
I had Amherst #1 last week. More consistently dominating against slightly more difficult opposition than F&M. I believe RH had Amherst #1 as well. F&M has an argument but look at Amherst's GF and GA.
Haverford is one of the hottest teams in the country, with one of the toughest schedules in the country, and they've met every challenge since losing tight one to Wesleyan and Montclair. 6-0 in the Centennial, one of the top conferences.
Eastern has played a mostly inferior schedule and just had another draw. I think they've had a great season but when I think about all the other teams I don't think they are one of the 25 best. Keuka is one of the seven remaining unbeatens as well. Do you think Keuka should be in the top 25?
I base picks on a combination of record, schedule difficulty, recent results, how formidable they would be at this point in time against other very good teams. And mostly I'm just having fun. I am NOT predicting what I think the polls will be....just who I think truly deserve to be there all things considered.
Good job New England, see no blemishes in the North or Central region. I'll take your word for the rest of the nation. Keep it up!
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 18, 2015, 08:39:44 PM
NCAC NE Top 25 (thru 10/18)
1) Amherst (All 1st place votes)
2) Franklin & Marshall
3) Whitworth
4) Montclair State
5) Calvin
6) Thomas More
7) Kenyon
8) Brandeis
9) Haverford
10) Loras
11) Oneonta State
12) UW-Whitewater
13) Trinity (TX)
14) OWU
15) Plattsburgh
16) Elizabethtown
17) Kean
18) Lycoming
19) Case Western
20) Christopher Newport
21) Colorado College
22) Macalester
23) Ohio Northern
24) Middlebury
25) Wash U
RV (in order) -- Tufts, UW-Oshkosh, SLU, Wheaton (Ill), Eastern, MIT, DePauw, Messiah, Texas-Dallas, Dickinson, Brockport, Stockton, Washington & Lee, ECSU, Endicott, Hobart, Skidmore, Salisbury, Randolph, Roanoke, Oglethorpe, St Johns, St Scholastica, Stevens, John Carroll, Redlands, Maryville (TN), Springfield, Gordon
Watch List (no order) -- Williams, Wesleyan, Conn Coll, Carnegie Mellon, Chicago, Emory, Hopkins, UMass-Boston, Occidental, Penn State-Behrend, Rowan, Kalamazoo, Lynchburg, Birmingham-Southern, North Park, Concordia (WI), Denison/Oberlin, Knox, Rose-Hulman, King's, Cabrini, Westminster (MO), Dominican, RPI, WPI, Pacific Lutheran, Keuka, Rutgers C and N
I think you have a great sense of how teams are performing and who is deserving of a ranking. Good job! :)
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 18, 2015, 08:39:44 PM
NCAC NE Top 25 (thru 10/18)
1) Amherst (All 1st place votes)
2) Franklin & Marshall
3) Whitworth
4) Montclair State
5) Calvin
6) Thomas More
7) Kenyon
8) Brandeis
9) Haverford
10) Loras
11) Oneonta State
12) UW-Whitewater
13) Trinity (TX)
14) OWU
15) Plattsburgh
16) Elizabethtown
17) Kean
18) Lycoming
19) Case Western
20) Christopher Newport
21) Colorado College
22) Macalester
23) Ohio Northern
24) Middlebury
25) Wash U
RV (in order) -- Tufts, UW-Oshkosh, SLU, Wheaton (Ill), Eastern, MIT, DePauw, Messiah, Texas-Dallas, Dickinson, Brockport, Stockton, Washington & Lee, ECSU, Endicott, Hobart, Skidmore, Salisbury, Randolph, Roanoke, Oglethorpe, St Johns, St Scholastica, Stevens, John Carroll, Redlands, Maryville (TN), Springfield, Gordon
Watch List (no order) -- Williams, Wesleyan, Conn Coll, Carnegie Mellon, Chicago, Emory, Hopkins, UMass-Boston, Occidental, Penn State-Behrend, Rowan, Kalamazoo, Lynchburg, Birmingham-Southern, North Park, Concordia (WI), Denison/Oberlin, Knox, Rose-Hulman, King's, Cabrini, Westminster (MO), Dominican, RPI, WPI, Pacific Lutheran, Keuka, Rutgers C and N
Great work! Two quick thoughts. First is more of a question. I know that MSU has had a lot of games against strong opponents, but I'm surprised that the 3-0 loss to Kean hasn't impacted their relative ranking a bit more than it seems to have. Seems to have done more for Kean than it did on the negative side for MSU. They clearly deserve to be on the list, and in a very competitive spot, but I guess I would have expected a bit more deterioration in rank below top 4-5 teams with such a loss against a currently unranked team. We'll see tomorrow what the polls show, but interesting to me that they haven't dropped much at all on Massey, nor here. 2nd is why Rochester didn't make your watch list. I know the record is tough but their SOS (at least according to Massey--I know the methodology is different than NCAA) is also just about at the top of the list. Lots of close matches against teams that are either ranked or on your other two lists. Curious if that was a conscious decision to leave UR off or just below the radar in your thinking? I think a post-season run for them is going to be tough but if they won the next 4 games, who knows? They should definitely win the next 2 and then Brandeis and Emory are likely to both be hard fought games, either of which could go both ways. I think Brandeis is clearly a favorite for that game, but it's a home game for UR and Brandeis just dropped a game to WU who UR tied recently.
Which men's head coach do you think has done the best job so far in 2015, taking into account expectations, program history, improvement, challenges, etc.
Justin Serpone, Amherst (60) - 12%
Justin Serpone's Career Coaching Record
Amherst College (9th season, 120-16-22 Overall)
2007: 15-2-1
2008: 15-4-3
2009: 12-4-1
2010: 13-2-4
2011: 16-2-2
2012: 17-0-3
2013: 18-1-2
2014: 14-1-6
2015: 13-0-0 and counting
Records and NCAA performances speak for them-self.
Mike Coven, Brandeis (38) - 8%
Ryan Sounders, Calvin (14) - 2%
Brandon Bianco, Case Western (18) - 3%
Mark Wagner, Eastern (19) - 4%
Undefeated with a 12-0-2 record and counting.
17 Seasons at Eastern (205 W - 95 L - 13 T)
Looking for 3rd straight season w/14+ wins.
Skip Roderick, Elizabethtown (27) - 5%
Currently 13-1-1 and counting.
Career record of 498-139-58
Running away w/Landmark Conf.
Dan Wagner, F&M (43) - 9%
Rob Irvine, Kean (15) - 3%
Nate Gibboney, Lycoming (81) - 17%
Gibboney Year-By-Year
Year W L T Pct. Note
2013 11 8 4 .565 Won first conference title and NCAA Tournament games in school history
2014 15 3 3 .786 Highest winning percentage in program history
Total 26 11 7 .670
Currently 11-1-2 and counting.
Took a 4-10-2 program and won MAC in first year w/wins over Messiah and Etown.
Jake Beverlin, Mass-Boston (8) - 1%
Todd Tumelty, Montclair St. (12) - 2%
Jeremiah Kneeland, Skidmore (15) - 3%
Eric Busener, Thomas More (10) - 2%
Wytse Molenaar, UW-Oshkosh (27) - 5%
Tony Guinn, UW-Whitewater (12) - 2%
other (72) - 15%
In bold are my picks for finalists. Obviously being a Mid-Atlantic fan I might be bias in my selections ;D ;)
Good call on Montclair, TJ. The 3-0 Kean game completely slipped my mind. I think I was thinking that was Rut-Camden. I'm comfortable with MSU at #4, based on entire body of work and Kean game sandwiched between wins over Rowan and Rut-Camden, and considering that some of those NJAC schools (see Rut-Camden) play brutal schedules and have LOTS of opportunities for slip-ups. That said, if I had accounted for the Kean game I think I would move them to #7 and move Calvin, TMC and Kenyon up a spot. Montclair and Brandeis could flip-flop at that point. As for UR, they are definitely good enough to be in RV or watch list, but I consciously left them out because I don't see a way through for them. The loss to Case for me was the final straw. They lived on the edge last year and even if they win out I can't see them getting the benefit of the doubt this time, especially with so many UAA teams with overall better records. We'll see.
As for a couple of others, I don't expect this to show in the real polls necessarily but I think Amherst is the overwhelming #1 at the moment. F&M can't be lower than #2 based on merit, but there are a handful of teams I likely would pick in a head-to-head with F&M. I pushed Whitworth to #3 (over Montclair ironically) to account for built-in systemic/regional bias that always seems to have Whitworth at least a couple of spots lower than they might be. Calvin is a real challenge, as sometimes the Knights get the benefit of the doubt but as the season progresses perhaps they've been even underrated. They move up now that you've clued me in on MSU. I really don't know how anyone could argue with Haverford, at least until they lose again. I was thinking of OWU even higher, but I couldn't justify getting them ahead of the others today. Part of having OWU as high as I do is trying to stay ahead of the curve. They are hot and are going to be a handful. Having them at #14 today will look really smart if they win the next 3, and then they would be even higher. Similar thinking for Loras and Oneonta. Loras has more blemishes than I would like but they are on track now and just crushed Luther. The SUNYAC is really tough and Oneonta again has emerged as top dog. The SUNYAC is again threatening to get 3 bids. I had a hard time pushing Tufts out of the top 25, as I think they still are a contender, but results dictated that they had to go at least for this week. The Jumbos were #1 just a few weeks ago! How can you keep Macalester out, even though I'm not totally sold, which is sort of how I feel about E'town and maybe (maybe) Lycoming. Case deserves their spot IMO on balance, and Ohio Northern was a surprise even for me. I sort of remember them at something like 5-3, and now all of the sudden they are 13-3. There are teams in the RV category that are scary -- Tufts, Wheaton (Ill), Messiah, SLU. Wheaton has demolished last 3 opponents. And seems like Dickinson and never-mentioned Springfield have come out of nowhere as well. BTW, my odds of Messiah winning their AQ stand at 70/30 with an expectation that the line moves to 80/20 by gametime.
Related to the Rochester question, I have Denison/Oberlin as a pair because I see them fighting for that last NCAC playoff spot. And the more I think about Oberlin, despite their record, I think they may be the 3rd best team in the NCAC after Kenyon/OWU. Fortune went their way 2 years ago, but not so far in this campaign. BTW, if it still matters at the time, Oberlin and Denison play on the final day of the season.
70/30 and 80/20 by game time that Messiah wins the AQ? Just clarifying that's all. And I like your logic for the poll. Makes a lot of sense. I personally think Loras is too high in yours but deserving none the less which is why I like your poll overall. As I mentioned earlier well done.
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 19, 2015, 10:16:38 AM
70/30 and 80/20 by game time that Messiah wins the AQ? Just clarifying that's all. And I like your logic for the poll. Makes a lot of sense. I personally think Loras is too high in yours but deserving none the less which is why I like your poll overall. As I mentioned earlier well done.
Presuming a Lycoming vs Messiah MACC tourney final.
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 19, 2015, 10:16:38 AM
70/30 and 80/20 by game time that Messiah wins the AQ? Just clarifying that's all. And I like your logic for the poll. Makes a lot of sense. I personally think Loras is too high in yours but deserving none the less which is why I like your poll overall. As I mentioned earlier well done.
Yeah, you can definitely question Loras, but they have played 9 quality opponents where most would say they had some chance to lose. If CMU could be at #12 with a few blemishes then Loras can be there. How many teams in the country would feel super-confident playing Loras 2-3 weeks from now? The answer
may be ZERO.
Got ya and I agree. I would not want to play a team like Loras or Haverford in the NCAA tournament. As I said deserving. Too high for me by like 3 or 4 spots so nothing drastic by any means. I tend to agree with your polls more than the other national polls! Wanna start your own D3 poll? I'll take a spot on the ranking committee if you do!
And on your watch list I would keep an eye on Lynchburg. 7-1-4...decent results against good teams. Problem is that there SOS isn't the greatest (176 on Massey). Loss to Randolph Macon and ties against VA Wesleyan, Randolph, Wash. Lee, and CNU. No signature wins and no chances remaining for one either.
How does RvR come into play if a team is on the first poll, but then drop in the 2nd or 3rd? I forgot how the fluctuation factors in to the rankings. How does this impact teams that have played them, do they get credit for the RvR or does it fall off?
Remember Luther in 2014....Their RvR dropped them off the rankings completely.
Mr.Right, once dropped did that impact Loras RvR or did it still count as a result vs a ranked opponent because at one point Luther was ranked.
It did not count..
from http://www.d3soccer.com/columns/christan-shirk/2015/ncaa-regional-rankings-coming-next-week
QuoteResults versus Ranked Teams
Prior to 2013, a team's results versus ranked teams (one of the primary criteria) was based upon the official clarification in the Manual that "once a team is ranked . . ., it is always considered ranked." That was changed starting in 2013 with ranked teams being defined as those teams ranked "at the time of selection" (Pre-Championship Manual, pg. 21), in other words, only the teams ranked the previous week.
Obviously, for the first weekly regional rankings of the season, there is no previous ranking and thus there are no results versus ranked teams. Consequently, the regional data sheets (see section further down) for the first weekly rankings do not include teams' records verus ranked opponents, but starting with the second weekly rankings this criteria is in play and is among the criteria listed in the regional data sheets.
For the . . . first weekly rankings: | N/A (no previous rankings) |
second weekly rankings: | results versus teams ranked in the first weekly rankings |
third weekly rankings: | results versus teams ranked in the second weekly rankings |
final unpublished rankings: | results versus teams ranked in the third weekly rankings |
I have said this numerous times that I liked it better when the system was once ranked, always ranked...There by affecting record v Ranked incredibly. The new system bothers me for a number of reasons.
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 19, 2015, 12:36:40 PM
Remember Luther in 2014....Their RvR dropped them off the rankings completely.
SOS was what did Luther in. It dropped below .500 between the first and second regional rankings and they went from #2 to unranked with no other results suggesting so many teams would leap-frog them. The NCAA said there was no .500 SOS threshhold. Nevertheless . . .
John Carroll got hurt by the RvR issue in the final unpublished rankings last year (2014) and that might partially explain their not being selected for an at-large berth (that still doesn't make sense).
This is correct but since the 1st poll does not include record v Ranked, I assumed that this would play a major factor in why teams move up and down frequently in the 2nd poll...It was just a hunch so I respect that FW knows more about these things than I do.
NCAA Great Lakes Regional Rankings - October 29, 2014 (Second Week)Rank | Team | Record | SOS | RvR |
1. | Loras | 13-2-1 | .593 | 5-0-1 | |
2. | Wartburg | 10-3-4 | .548 | 3-1-0 | |
3. | UW-Whitewater | 10-3-3 | .568 | 3-1-0 | |
4. | St. Olaf | 11-3-2 | .561 | 0-3-1 | |
5. | Gustavus Adolphus | 11-4-1 | .536 | 1-1-1 | |
6. | UW-Oshkosh | 12-5-1 | .558 | 0-2-1 | |
7. | St. John's | 9-6-0 | .564 | 1-4-0 | |
| Luther | 13-2-0 | .493 | 1-2-0 | |
Compare Luther to teams 4 thru 7. St. Olaf and UW-Oshkosh who have no wins vs. ranked teams. GAC and St. John's only have 1 win vs. ranked. SOS is where Luther fell glaringly short, not so much RvR. But what still doesn't make sense is that their SOS was .519 the week prior, still very low and much lower than everyone else in the rankings and yet they were ranked #2. If SOS was so important to the commitee, why #2 the first week?
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 19, 2015, 01:32:18 PM
NCAA Great Lakes Regional Rankings - October 29, 2014 (Second Week)
Rank | Team | Record | SOS | RvR |
1. | Loras | 13-2-1 | .593 | 5-0-1 | |
2. | Wartburg | 10-3-4 | .548 | 3-1-0 | |
3. | UW-Whitewater | 10-3-3 | .568 | 3-1-0 | |
4. | St. Olaf | 11-3-2 | .561 | 0-3-1 | |
5. | Gustavus Adolphus | 11-4-1 | .536 | 1-1-1 | |
6. | UW-Oshkosh | 12-5-1 | .558 | 0-2-1 | |
7. | St. John's | 9-6-0 | .564 | 1-4-0 | |
| Luther | 13-2-0 | .493 | 1-2-0 | |
Compare Luther to teams 4 thru 7. St. Olaf and UW-Oshkosh who have no wins vs. ranked teams. GAC and St. John's only have 1 win vs. ranked. SOS is where Luther fell glaringly short, not so much RvR. But what still doesn't make sense is that their SOS was .519 the week prior, still very low and much lower than everyone else in the rankings and yet they were ranked #2. If SOS was so important to the commitee, why #2 the first week?
If I recall correctly there was a huge change for Montclair too that few us of understood, like from #2 or #3 to unranked.
TOP 25
MASSEY (SOS) / BENNETT (SOS)
1) Amherst (11)..............................1. Amherst (87)
2) Frank & Marsh (56).....................2. Kenyon (165)
3) Calvin (108).................................3. SLU (31)
4) Montclair St (44).........................4. F&M (111)
5) Haverford (7)............................5. Stevens (98)
6) Brandeis (17)..............................6. Loras (17)
7) SUNY Oneonta (5)......................7. Kean (197)
8) Middlebury (14)...........................8. Haverford (12)
9) Plattsburgh St (35)......................9. Calvin (90)
10)Lycoming (70)..........................10. Messiah (40)
11)Kenyon (128).............................11. Montclair St (23)
12)Elizabethtown (83)....................12. Oneonta St (37)
13)Tufts (2)................................13. North Park (75)
14)MA Boston (43)........................14. Thomas More (138)
15)Eastern Univ (100).....................15. Lycoming (168)
16)Thomas More (117)....................16. Rowan (35)
17)Whitworth (195)........................17. Whitworth (294)
18)Kean (153)................................18. Ohio Wesleyan (130)
19)Stevens Tech (64)....................19. UW-Oshkosh (111)
20)Brockport St (55).....................20. UW-Whitewater (181)
21)R Stockton (49).......................21. Plattsburgh St (173)
22)Hobart-Smith (21)...................22. R Stockton (43)
23)CT College (8)........................23. Elizabethtown (142)
24)E Connecticut (69)...................24. Tufts (5)
25)St Lawrence (18).....................25. Case Western (77)
---------------------------------------------------------
RV)Wesleyan CT (3)....................26. Trinity (253)
RV)Williams (1)...........................27. Dickinson (38)
RV)Rowan (13)............................28. Cortland St. (91)
RV)Loras (28)............................. 29. Rutgers-Newark (53)
RV)MIT (184)...............................30. Rutgers-Camden (25)
RV)Case Western (81)...................31. RPI (66)
RV) 26-31
REPOST FROM NESCAC THREAD
Amherst unless a complete collapse will host and receive the 1st Round bye in the NCAA tournament. The 2nd round game usually is a tough one but Amherst should handle them. The Sweet 16 and Elite 8 games will also be hosted at Amherst. This is where Serpone has notoriously COME UP short. 2012 and 2013 losing to Williams at Home. Losing in 2014 to Brandeis at Oneonta. 2011 getting smacked by Stevens at home in the Sweet 16. In 2010 losing to Bowdoin at Bowdoin in the Sweet 16 in PK's. 2009 getting whacked at York PA in RD32 which Williams went on to beat them in PK's to reach Final 4.
POINT:
Amherst dominates regular Season but has 1 Final 4 in 2008 to show for it. Serpone's weakest team was 2008 and they got smacked by Stevens in Final 4----4-1.
Williams since 2009 has been to 3 FINAL 4's beating Amherst twice TO GET THERE...
MAIN POINT:
It would be an understatement to say Serpone has UNDERPERFORMED in the NCAA's after dominating regular season in most year...
Will this be the year he gets through and finished the deal...????
Amherst is a great team, but in my opinion, like several others atop D3 (Loras/Stevens/Oneonta/Kenyon)
Must win a title to truly be considered a Powerhouse.
Quote from: Saint of Old on October 19, 2015, 03:05:55 PM
Amherst is a great team, but in my opinion, like several others atop D3 (Loras/Stevens/Oneonta/Kenyon)
Must win a title to truly be considered a Powerhouse.
Could not agree more...That is why I highlighted the Serpone flame outs in the NCAA's
Looking at Whitworth OWP... it's a shockingly low .414 (.440 with remaining games).
AQ or Bust for this Nationally Ranked team...
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 19, 2015, 04:58:59 PM
Looking at Whitworth OWP... it's a shockingly low .414 (.440 with remaining games).
AQ or Bust for this Nationally Ranked team...
Great...That means 1 more Texas team that does not deserve to be in...Gotta keep $$$$ down
I have been harping on CALVIN all year.....I JUST DO NOT SEE 1 DAMN win that jumps out at me....What is their SOS and OWP? I am guessing very weak
Calvin is the benefactor of scheduling 11 road games this season. Endicott and Gordon's strong record helps their OWP, which is around .540 at the moment, and will drop to .520 range by the end of regular season with Olivet, Trine, Adrian (away), K-zoo (away).
Endicott 11 1 2 a 1.071
Gordon 10 3 0 a 0.962
Aurora 6 6 2 a 0.625
NC Ill 3 10 0 a 0.375
Alma 9 4 1 a 0.848
Olivet 3 12 1 a 0.273
Albion 5 9 1 a 0.458
Trine 5 9 1 a 0.458
Hope 5 8 1 a 0.491
Adrian 4 9 2 a 0.417
Kzoo 9 4 1 a 0.848
Trine 5 9 1 0.312
Hope 5 8 1 0.334
Adrian 4 9 2 0.283
Kzoo 9 4 1 0.577
Alma 9 4 1 0.538
Olivet 3 12 1 0.186
Albion 5 9 1 0.312
Loras losing right after I pumped then up!
Seems surprising to me that they would play each other this late in the season as an out-of-conf game unless it was a rescheduled game? Big W for St. Thomas. Loras lucky it doesn't go against their in-conf record!
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 19, 2015, 05:55:59 PM
Loras losing right after I pumped then up!
I hate it when teams screw up my poll ;), and right when I was going to insist that Loras IS a national powerhouse considering their overall resume for the past 8-10 years.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 19, 2015, 04:58:59 PM
Looking at Whitworth OWP... it's a shockingly low .414 (.440 with remaining games).
AQ or Bust for this Nationally Ranked team...
No chance that Whitworth doesn't make the tournament. Sort of a moot point, as the PAC NW doesn't have a tourney and Whitworth pretty much already has won the AQ.
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 19, 2015, 05:02:42 PM
I have been harping on CALVIN all year.....I JUST DO NOT SEE 1 DAMN win that jumps out at me....What is their SOS and OWP? I am guessing very weak
So, if you look at the rankings, where would you put Calvin? A traditional power that likely is going to be 17-0-1 or 18-0-1. KZoo will gte a shot at beating them.
Quote from: Saint of Old on October 19, 2015, 03:05:55 PM
Amherst is a great team, but in my opinion, like several others atop D3 (Loras/Stevens/Oneonta/Kenyon)
Must win a title to truly be considered a Powerhouse.
Obviously you can't belong to the national title club, but I don't agree with this entirely. Who are the D3 powerhouses if Loras and Amherst don't count? Only Messiah, OWU and Wheaton (Ill)? Winning a title 20+ years ago doesn't make one a powerhouse NOW. Where I agree is with the upstart, top programs (doing well over the past 3-4 years) that need to get to Final Fours in order to reach "powerhouse" status like F&M, Kenyon, Brandeis, etc.
Quote from: TennesseeJed on October 19, 2015, 06:23:36 PM
Seems surprising to me that they would play each other this late in the season as an out-of-conf game unless it was a rescheduled game? Big W for St. Thomas. Loras lucky it doesn't go against their in-conf record!
Also was a very quick turnaround as Loras played Luther late Saturday night. How quickly things can change. One can now argue that Loras must get their AQ. Could not possibly have imagined writing that just this morning.
Are UAA, HCAC and Northwest Conf. the only 3 men's conferences that use regular season conf records vs. a playoff tournament for determining Pool A AQ berths?
TJ, you're a little mistaken with HCAC unless something has changed for this year.
Only two (02) conferences do not have a post-season tournament and award their conference championship and AQ to the regular season champion: NWC and UAA
Eight (08) conferences crown their conference champion based on the regular season and award the AQ to their tournament winner: CCIW, HCAC, IIAC, MIAA, MWC, MIAC, NCAC, SCIAC
All the rest use their tournament to both crown a conference champion and award the AQ.
Check out last year's Conference Championship Central (http://www.d3soccer.com/playoffs/2014-conference-championship-central) page on D3soccer.com. At the top of the page it lists the Conference Champions with notations for how it was determined, followed by the tournament schedules/results, and at the bottom Conference Automatic Berths (AQs) are listed with notation for how it was determined.
Can anybody provide some more color on the SAA and ODAC conferences? Centre is the only SAA team I have much familiarity with, and given how competitive the Colonels generally are with the better NCAC teams who they play often I am always surprised to see them struggle so much in the SAA. I know that conference just within the past year or two was awarded an AQ (I guess as a new conference), but how should we evaluate Oglethorpe at something like 6-0-1 and 10-2-2? And for the ODAC, I've watched a few games online and it seems like schools such as Roanoke and Lynchburg have nice stadiums and attract pretty big crowds. Seems like their soccer games are kind of a big deal in those small Virginia cities. If I knew nothing about the D3 scene from this site or followed the last few NCAA tourneys I would have assumed the ODAC would always get at least 2 and maybe 3 bids on a regular basis.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 19, 2015, 09:20:39 PM
TJ, you're a little mistaken with HCAC unless something has changed for this year.
Only two (02) conferences do not have a post-season tournament and award their conference championship and AQ to the regular season champion: NWC and UAA
Eight (08) conferences crown their conference champion based on the regular season and award the AQ to their tournament winner: CCIW, HCAC, IIAC, MIAA, MWC, MIAC, NCAC, SCIAC
All the rest use their tournament to both crown a conference champion and award the AQ.
Check out last year's Conference Championship Central (http://www.d3soccer.com/playoffs/2014-conference-championship-central) page on D3soccer.com. At the top of the page it lists the Conference Champions with notations for how it was determined, followed by the tournament schedules/results, and at the bottom Conference Automatic Berths (AQs) are listed with notation for how it was determined.
Thanks FW! I did take a look at Conf Central for last year and saw the tournament results for HCAC, as you said I should.
Here's what I saw on pg. 30 (for HCAC specifically) of the 2015 Pre Champ Manual, which is what gave rise to the question. It's phrased in exactly the same language as for UAA's conf, and it specifically says, "no tournament", seeming to contradict 2014.
Heartland Collegiate Athletic Conference (10)
Anderson University (Indiana)
Bluffton University
Defiance College
Earlham College
Franklin College
Hanover College
Manchester University
Mount St. Joseph University
Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology
Transylvania University
AQ – Regular Season Champ, No Tournament - Oct. 31
The NCAA is notorious for having a slew of errors in their manuals. That is just another of them.
The HCAC website has a page fro their 2015 men's soccer tournament: http://www.heartlandconf.org/sports/msoc/2015-16/tournament. And it has this statement: Tournament champion is the conference's automatic qualifier in the 2015 NCAADIII Championship Tournament.
What could be a big error is that I think the numbers say the men's tournament should be 62 teams now (42 AQs, 1 Pool B, and 19 Pool C). By my count and according to the counts on D3soccer.com, there are now 404 men's teams eligible for the tournament and the access ratio is 6.5. Well, 404 / 6.5 = 62.2. Two schools (SUNY Canton, Sarah Lawrence) reached full active status this year, Wilson added a men's team, and Galladuet revived their men's program adding 4 teams which is enough to deserve an additional team, but the manual is saying 61 teams. They used to show their math in the manual, but for the past several years that just give the final numbers.
Ok, gotcha. Thanks again FW for the help in cutting through the NCAA red tape...
October 20, 2015
D3soccer.com Men's Top 25, Week 7
Through games of Sunday, October 18, 2015
# School (1st Pl. Votes) Record Pts. Prev.
1 Franklin & Marshall (14) 13-0-0 984 1
2 Amherst (6) 13-0-0 967 2
3 Kenyon 11-1-0 902 5
4 Calvin 14-0-1 814 6
5 Trinity (Texas) 13-2-0 810 8
6 Whitworth 12-0-1 797 7
7 UW-Whitewater 13-2-0 723 10
8 Thomas More 12-1-1 673 13
9 Brandeis 12-2-1 652 4
10 Montclair State 14-2-0 646 3
11 Elizabethtown 13-1-1 626 11
12 Texas-Dallas 13-1-1 484 18
13 Eastern 12-0-2 474 14
14 Oneonta State 11-3-1 437 19
15 Christopher Newport 10-1-4 410 9
16 Plattsburgh State 12-1-3 389 15
17 Kean 14-2-0 377 —
18 Loras 9-3-1 374 20
19 Carnegie Mellon 8-2-3 346 12
20 DePauw 9-1-3 267 17
21 Eastern Connecticut 12-2-1 208 21
22 Case Western Reserve 11-2-1 157 —
23 Denison 9-2-2 140 16
24 MIT 11-1-1 123 —
25 Stevens 11-1-2 115 —
Dropped out: No. 22 Tufts, No. 23 UW-Oshkosh, No. 24 Connecticut College, No. 25 Messiah
Receiving Votes: Haverford 104, Ohio Wesleyan 104, Tufts 98, Middlebury 74, Colorado College 58, Lycoming 40, UW-Oshkosh 36, Mass-Boston 34, Washington U. 26, Keuka 16, Penn State-Behrend 14, Occidental 12, Macalester 12, Redlands 8, Ohio Northern 6, Stockton 6, St. Lawrence 4, Endicott 4, Connecticut College 2, Bridgewater State 2
The D3soccer.com Top 25 is voted on by a panel of coaches, Sports Information Directors and D3soccer.com staff, and is published weekly.
Haverford still not in the Top 25 is mind boggling...
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 20, 2015, 09:23:07 AM
Haverford still not in the Top 25 is mind boggling...
Haverford and Lycoming both top 10 in Massey...Messiah not even receiving votes? Crazy world.
Also surprised CMU is even ranked? 2 ties this weekend? Interesting.
OWU is #4 in Great Lakes region and Denison isn't ranked in top 10 for that region but Denison is top 25 and OWU is RV.
I was going to comment on that CMU slot as well. The win over Messiah and close lose to Kenyon has them extremely overvalued...
Some big games today:
F&M at Muhlenberg
Eastern at Wilkes (never discredit a home team in some windy weather).
OWU at DePauw
Plymouth St at Middlebury
Stevens at Rutgers-Newark
Alvernia at Hood
Miseri at Kings
K-zoo at Hope
York at Wesley (for a strong position in the CAC table)
Messiah at Widener (upset special, where Widener can steal a point)
Wartburg at UW-Platteville
What is the cut-off for NCAA regional rankings? Will today's results be factored in to the release?
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 20, 2015, 09:24:11 AM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 20, 2015, 09:23:07 AM
Haverford still not in the Top 25 is mind boggling...
Haverford and Lycoming both top 10 in Massey...Messiah not even receiving votes? Crazy world.
Also surprised CMU is even ranked? 2 ties this weekend? Interesting.
OWU is #4 in Great Lakes region and Denison isn't ranked in top 10 for that region but Denison is top 25 and OWU is RV.
Agree with all of this. Seems like there is like a 2 week (at least) delay reaction in the polls, and of course by the time they catch up a team like Haverford may finally lose again (and so they still may not get in). Don't get CMU at all. Or DePauw. Or Denison. I guess it's the "Salisbury effect" where once some teams get in they're hard to get out of there.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 20, 2015, 09:57:18 AM
What is the cut-off for NCAA regional rankings? Will today's results be factored in to the release?
Just like everything else, it's based on results through to and including Sunday.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 19, 2015, 12:39:55 PM
from http://www.d3soccer.com/columns/christan-shirk/2015/ncaa-regional-rankings-coming-next-week
QuoteResults versus Ranked Teams
Prior to 2013, a team's results versus ranked teams (one of the primary criteria) was based upon the official clarification in the Manual that "once a team is ranked . . ., it is always considered ranked." That was changed starting in 2013 with ranked teams being defined as those teams ranked "at the time of selection" (Pre-Championship Manual, pg. 21), in other words, only the teams ranked the previous week.
Obviously, for the first weekly regional rankings of the season, there is no previous ranking and thus there are no results versus ranked teams. Consequently, the regional data sheets (see section further down) for the first weekly rankings do not include teams' records verus ranked opponents, but starting with the second weekly rankings this criteria is in play and is among the criteria listed in the regional data sheets.
For the . . . first weekly rankings: | N/A (no previous rankings) |
second weekly rankings: | results versus teams ranked in the first weekly rankings |
third weekly rankings: | results versus teams ranked in the second weekly rankings |
final unpublished rankings: | results versus teams ranked in the third weekly rankings |
FW,
Just want to clarify and sorry for beating a dead horse...so say Team A beats first week and second week regionally ranked Team B, but then third week Team B is not regionally ranked. Does this stil count as a win vs Ranked opponents for Team A? I am just confused on that process. Thanks in advance for any clarification!
No, it does not count.
All that matters now are the super secret rankings that we don't get to see.
Which doesn't really change. Rarely have we seen the super secret rankings benefit a team on the outside looking in...
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 20, 2015, 11:02:21 AM
Which doesn't really change. Rarely have we seen the super secret rankings benefit a team on the outside looking in...
No. But in an age of increasing transparency pretty much everywhere from board rooms to the BCS playoff committee to PTO organizations, the NCAA continues to proudly buck the trend and irritate its fan base. Luckily for them knowledgeable DIII fans are pretty sparse, so it doesn't irritate people the way their plethora of other decisions do...
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 19, 2015, 09:35:12 PM
Can anybody provide some more color on the SAA and ODAC conferences? Centre is the only SAA team I have much familiarity with, and given how competitive the Colonels generally are with the better NCAC teams who they play often I am always surprised to see them struggle so much in the SAA. I know that conference just within the past year or two was awarded an AQ (I guess as a new conference), but how should we evaluate Oglethorpe at something like 6-0-1 and 10-2-2? And for the ODAC, I've watched a few games online and it seems like schools such as Roanoke and Lynchburg have nice stadiums and attract pretty big crowds. Seems like their soccer games are kind of a big deal in those small Virginia cities. If I knew nothing about the D3 scene from this site or followed the last few NCAA tourneys I would have assumed the ODAC would always get at least 2 and maybe 3 bids on a regular basis.
Well, apparently not, lol!
lastguy? jknezek?
NSCAA NCAA Division III Men - National - Poll 6 - October 20, 2015
Rank School Prev. W-L-T
1 Franklin & Marshall College 1 0-0-0
2 Amherst College 2 0-0-0
3 Calvin College 3 0-0-0
4 Whitworth University 4 0-0-0
5 University of Wisconsin-Whitewater 11 0-0-0
6 Thomas More College 6 0-0-0
7 Kenyon College 9 0-0-0
8 Eastern University 8 0-0-0
9 Montclair State University 5 0-0-0
10 Brandeis University 7 0-0-0
11 Plattsburgh State University 12 0-0-0
12 Kean University NR 0-0-0
13 Washington University (Mo.) NR 0-0-0
14 Colorado College NR 0-0-0
15 Trinity University (Texas) 15 0-0-0
16 Stevens Institute Of Technology 20 0-0-0
17 Loras College 14 0-0-0
18 Elizabethtown College 16 0-0-0
19 North Park University 24 0-0-0
20 Christopher Newport University 13 0-0-0
21 Massachusetts Insititute Of Technology 21 0-0-0
22 University of Texas-Dallas 10 0-0-0
23 Skidmore College 22 0-0-0
24 Thomas College NR 0-0-0
25 Ohio Northern University NR 0-0-0
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 20, 2015, 10:36:57 AM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 19, 2015, 12:39:55 PM
from http://www.d3soccer.com/columns/christan-shirk/2015/ncaa-regional-rankings-coming-next-week
QuoteResults versus Ranked Teams
Prior to 2013, a team's results versus ranked teams (one of the primary criteria) was based upon the official clarification in the Manual that "once a team is ranked . . ., it is always considered ranked." That was changed starting in 2013 with ranked teams being defined as those teams ranked "at the time of selection" (Pre-Championship Manual, pg. 21), in other words, only the teams ranked the previous week.
Obviously, for the first weekly regional rankings of the season, there is no previous ranking and thus there are no results versus ranked teams. Consequently, the regional data sheets (see section further down) for the first weekly rankings do not include teams' records verus ranked opponents, but starting with the second weekly rankings this criteria is in play and is among the criteria listed in the regional data sheets.
For the . . . first weekly rankings: | N/A (no previous rankings) |
second weekly rankings: | results versus teams ranked in the first weekly rankings |
third weekly rankings: | results versus teams ranked in the second weekly rankings |
final unpublished rankings: | results versus teams ranked in the third weekly rankings |
FW,
Just want to clarify and sorry for beating a dead horse...so say Team A beats first week and second week regionally ranked Team B, but then third week Team B is not regionally ranked. Does this stil count as a win vs Ranked opponents for Team A? I am just confused on that process. Thanks in advance for any clarification!
LGOTB is correct that that win will not be included in Team A's record versus ranked opponents in the data sheets produced for the committee to do its final unpublished rankings that form the basis for their at-large berth selections.
So, once the third regional rankings come out, we can figure out what the new record versus ranked teams is for everyone in an attempt to have a feel for how the final unpublished rankings may differ from the third published rankings.
When Haverford beats F&M and Wesleyan beats Amherst on Saturday, would they be the first 3 loss team to be ranked #1? haha
Would it be far-fetched to slot Haverford in at #2? What's the value of the rankings then, if Haverford, beats the #1 team in both polls?
Surprised to see MSU over Kean in terms of rankings. Granted MSU has had stronger wins, but Kean beat MSU on the ROAD!
Some bizarre results in the NSCAA poll. UW-W at 5? Eastern at 8? Wash U at 13? North Park? Thomas???
Despite my glowing praise for them last week, a little surprised to see Thomas in there, especially considering they're 10-4. However, two of their losses were in the first two games of the season, and I'll say again that I think LaBrie and Nicholas are good enough to play - and start - for a mid-level NESCAC team, perhaps a Bates, and could really surprise some people if they get to NCAAs this year. That said, must be the first time that they've been nationally-ranked, and a little questionable in my book.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 20, 2015, 12:06:42 PM
Some bizarre results in the NSCAA poll. UW-W at 5? Eastern at 8? Wash U at 13? North Park? Thomas???
Agreed! Rankings, like superstitions, only have validity if you believe them to be true. :) Having said that, the NCAA regional rankings actually matter for something, so I guess they are "true" as far as Pool C bids are concerned. All others are just for "sport."
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 20, 2015, 11:35:12 AM
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 19, 2015, 09:35:12 PM
Can anybody provide some more color on the SAA and ODAC conferences? Centre is the only SAA team I have much familiarity with, and given how competitive the Colonels generally are with the better NCAC teams who they play often I am always surprised to see them struggle so much in the SAA. I know that conference just within the past year or two was awarded an AQ (I guess as a new conference), but how should we evaluate Oglethorpe at something like 6-0-1 and 10-2-2? And for the ODAC, I've watched a few games online and it seems like schools such as Roanoke and Lynchburg have nice stadiums and attract pretty big crowds. Seems like their soccer games are kind of a big deal in those small Virginia cities. If I knew nothing about the D3 scene from this site or followed the last few NCAA tourneys I would have assumed the ODAC would always get at least 2 and maybe 3 bids on a regular basis.
Well, apparently not, lol!
lastguy? jknezek?
Sorry. I missed this completely. My knowledge of ODAC soccer, despite soccer being the game I played growing up and even, briefly, tried for in college, is much more limited than my knowledge of football and lacrosse. You are correct about Roanoke, Lynchburg, Va. Wes, EMU, and even Randolph. Those schools do not play football and soccer is the big sport in the fall on some of these campuses, although big sport is somewhat relative. Large followings at 'Noke and 'Burg, smaller at the rest.
Lynchburg has a multipurpose field turf field, which is nice but it's still turf. Kerr Stadium at Roanoke is even nicer. No track and very much a stadium feel, sadly it is also multi-purpose and turf. Randolph's Wildcat stadium is also not bad. Multi-purpose, has a track, odd seating arrangement you need to see to believe.
http://randolphwildcats.com/information/wildcatstadium
The thing about these schools is there isn't really anything that differentiates them from dozens of other liberal arts schools. There is no hook, they are primarily local, the endowments aren't great, the admission rate isn't great (66-80%), the athletic history is OK. So what is the big draw? You need a transcendent coach to push them forward, and while the programs are good, nobody has come in and really made that happen. Yeah I know, Lynchburg had their run, but it was a couple year flash, not sustained greatness.
So that brings up the "good but not great" issue. The ODAC has a lot of parity. There are a bunch of good teams, but no one really gets the long standing leg up on another to build that self-perpetuating greatness. Going backward from last year here are the tournament finals:
Lynchburg beats Roanoke
Va Wes beats Randolph
Roanoke beats Va Wes
Randolph beats Lynchburg
Lynchburg beats H-SC
Lyncburg beats Noke
Va Wes beats Noke
Noke beats W&L
Lynchburg beats Va Wes
Va Wes beats EMU
Noke beats Lynchburg
Va Wes beats W&L
Noke beats R-MC
Noke beats W&L
W&L beats Va Wes
On and on it goes. They just clobber each other in season and in tournament. So no one gets a reputation and therefore no one gets credit for beating anyone else. Lots of good, no great, is no way to make a splash. Then you get middling tourney seeds and you don't make a splash again. Then again, given the OOC outcomes against the best teams, the ODAC doesn't always help themselves either. So good but not great is really what you have, and you have a lot of it.
That being said, I think it's about to change. W&L is the team to watch for a bunch of reasons, but the biggest is the coaching change. I loved Coach Piranhian, even though he was there when I discovered I wasn't going to make it, he was great. But he was there a long, long, long time. And I think he had settled after that long time. If he ended up with a great player, he could build a good team. But if he didn't, well, sometimes it seems like the program just coasted. Now W&L has the hook (academics and reputation), the facilities, a somewhat national scope, and a coach with the energy and desire to build a better program. Scheduling Messiah is a good indication of intention. If W&L improves, I expect they can drag some of the others along with them and sooner or later you will see a break through for the conference. Not this year, but I'm thinking if it happens it will in the next 2 or 3.
Let's all just calm down and wait until the real Regional rankings come out tomorrow and then discuss....Also, even then there will be some discrepancies until the 2nd regional rankings the following Wednesday. Haverford will show up on both and near the top.
Quote from: jknezek on October 20, 2015, 12:21:29 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 20, 2015, 11:35:12 AM
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 19, 2015, 09:35:12 PM
Can anybody provide some more color on the SAA and ODAC conferences? Centre is the only SAA team I have much familiarity with, and given how competitive the Colonels generally are with the better NCAC teams who they play often I am always surprised to see them struggle so much in the SAA. I know that conference just within the past year or two was awarded an AQ (I guess as a new conference), but how should we evaluate Oglethorpe at something like 6-0-1 and 10-2-2? And for the ODAC, I've watched a few games online and it seems like schools such as Roanoke and Lynchburg have nice stadiums and attract pretty big crowds. Seems like their soccer games are kind of a big deal in those small Virginia cities. If I knew nothing about the D3 scene from this site or followed the last few NCAA tourneys I would have assumed the ODAC would always get at least 2 and maybe 3 bids on a regular basis.
Well, apparently not, lol!
lastguy? jknezek?
Sorry. I missed this completely. My knowledge of ODAC soccer, despite soccer being the game I played growing up and even, briefly, tried for in college, is much more limited than my knowledge of football and lacrosse. You are correct about Roanoke, Lynchburg, Va. Wes, EMU, and even Randolph. Those schools do not play football and soccer is the big sport in the fall on some of these campuses, although big sport is somewhat relative. Large followings at 'Noke and 'Burg, smaller at the rest.
Lynchburg has a multipurpose field turf field, which is nice but it's still turf. Kerr Stadium at Roanoke is even nicer. No track and very much a stadium feel, sadly it is also multi-purpose and turf. Randolph's Wildcat stadium is also not bad. Multi-purpose, has a track, odd seating arrangement you need to see to believe.
http://randolphwildcats.com/information/wildcatstadium
The thing about these schools is there isn't really anything that differentiates them from dozens of other liberal arts schools. There is no hook, they are primarily local, the endowments aren't great, the admission rate isn't great (66-80%), the athletic history is OK. So what is the big draw? You need a transcendent coach to push them forward, and while the programs are good, nobody has come in and really made that happen. Yeah I know, Lynchburg had their run, but it was a couple year flash, not sustained greatness.
So that brings up the "good but not great" issue. The ODAC has a lot of parity. There are a bunch of good teams, but no one really gets the long standing leg up on another to build that self-perpetuating greatness. Going backward from last year here are the tournament finals:
Lynchburg beats Roanoke
Va Wes beats Randolph
Roanoke beats Va Wes
Randolph beats Lynchburg
Lynchburg beats H-SC
Lyncburg beats Noke
Va Wes beats Noke
Noke beats W&L
Lynchburg beats Va Wes
Va Wes beats EMU
Noke beats Lynchburg
Va Wes beats W&L
Noke beats R-MC
Noke beats W&L
W&L beats Va Wes
On and on it goes. They just clobber each other in season and in tournament. So no one gets a reputation and therefore no one gets credit for beating anyone else. Lots of good, no great, is no way to make a splash. Then you get middling tourney seeds and you don't make a splash again. Then again, given the OOC outcomes against the best teams, the ODAC doesn't always help themselves either. So good but not great is really what you have, and you have a lot of it.
That being said, I think it's about to change. W&L is the team to watch for a bunch of reasons, but the biggest is the coaching change. I loved Coach Piranhian, even though he was there when I discovered I wasn't going to make it, he was great. But he was there a long, long, long time. And I think he had settled after that long time. If he ended up with a great player, he could build a good team. But if he didn't, well, sometimes it seems like the program just coasted. Now W&L has the hook (academics and reputation), the facilities, a somewhat national scope, and a coach with the energy and desire to build a better program. Scheduling Messiah is a good indication of intention. If W&L improves, I expect they can drag some of the others along with them and sooner or later you will see a break through for the conference. Not this year, but I'm thinking if it happens it will in the next 2 or 3.
Thank you!!! Much appreciated. So similar to the NESCAC in terms of parity top to bottom and the "beating each other up thing" but without prestige except for W&L. Am I correct that Roanoke and Lynchburg draw from beyond their campuses into the community? I recall them having pretty sophisticated broadcast teams and a really good atmosphere compared to most D3s.
Now maybe one of these days someone will chime in on the SAA.
SAA seems similar in terms of parity and has a handful of the Colleges That Change Lives colleges. As I noted before, I am familiar with Centre, who are always pretty competitive and yet seem to end up with a very mediocre SAA record.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 20, 2015, 12:33:23 PM
Am I correct that Roanoke and Lynchburg draw from beyond their campuses into the community? I recall them having pretty sophisticated broadcast teams and a really good atmosphere compared to most D3s.
The weeknight games draw a few hundred officially, which we all know is probably a bit inflated by counting whoever walks within sight of the counter during the game. The weekend games do pretty well. You can get 500-1000 depending on if it is Homecoming or Parents Weekend or something. I wouldn't imagine it is a huge community event, but I doubt they play in front of less than 100 on a regular basis the way a lot of teams seem to.
If Haverford didn't have 0-13-1 Rosemont on the schedule, their SOS would be around .648! I know FW mentioned on here that the OWP does not count the games vs the opponent itself, so my calculations are slightly off. However, I have the Fords at .604 now.
Example:
When Calculating the games vs Montclair St. and Stockton, I do not include the results against Haverford in the OWP, correct (FW)?
So MSU would be 13-2 (not 14-2) and Stockton would be (13-2-1)...
Does anyone know the approximate time the Regional Rankings come out tomorrow? Is it 1pm or 10am? or somewhere in between?
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 20, 2015, 12:44:23 PMWhen Calculating the games vs Montclair St. and Stockton, I do not include the results against Haverford in the OWP, correct (FW)?
So MSU would be 13-2 (not 14-2) and Stockton would be (13-2-1)...
That's right.
Not sure how you have your spreadsheet set-up (is it tracking win pcts. or the individual wins, losses, and ties), so I don't want to say it would be relatively easy to get it to take this into account. But it certainly could be done without getting too burdensome if you already have each teams record split into the three components versus just their win pct.
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 20, 2015, 02:19:52 PM
Does anyone know the approximate time the Regional Rankings come out tomorrow? Is it 1pm or 10am? or somewhere in between?
If my memory serves correctly, it's usually mid-afternoon. Does anybody else have the same recollection?
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 20, 2015, 12:33:23 PM
SAA seems similar in terms of parity and has a handful of the Colleges That Change Lives colleges. As I noted before, I am familiar with Centre, who are always pretty competitive and yet seem to end up with a very mediocre SAA record.
I would say part of the SAA's problem is simply travel. While Berry, Ogelthorpe, B-SC, and Sewanee are all within 4 bus riding hours one way, Millsaps, Rhodes, Centre, and Hendrix are a long way from parts of that grouping. So you spend a ton of time on buses and it's got to sap your desire. Hendrix is 8 hours from Centre and Ogelthorpe and similar to Berry and Sewanee. Centre is a long way from Hendrix and almost as far to Berry/Ogelthorpe/B-SC/Millsaps. Just using Google, Centre is 600 miles from Millsaps, 565 from Hendrix, 400 from B-SC, 300 plus from the GA schools.
Any way you cut it, the best positioned SAA school, probably B-SC, still has at least one mammoth conference road game (14+ hours round trip) and nothing that is going to be less than 6 hours on a bus round trip.
I'm not saying other conferences don't have this problem, but I'm thinking that's part of the reason its so hard to get traction. I wouldn't want to play in the SAA myself. Too much time away from school and sitting on buses.
This Stevens v RUN is a HUGE game for both teams...Personally, the ONLY good win on Stevens resume is v Haverford. Is it just me or does Stevens need a couple more good WINS if they do not win the Empire 8 they could be on the bubble
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 20, 2015, 02:24:09 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 20, 2015, 12:44:23 PMWhen Calculating the games vs Montclair St. and Stockton, I do not include the results against Haverford in the OWP, correct (FW)?
So MSU would be 13-2 (not 14-2) and Stockton would be (13-2-1)...
That's right.
Not sure how you have your spreadsheet set-up (is it tracking win pcts. or the individual wins, losses, and ties), so I don't want to say it would be relatively easy to get it to take this into account. But it certainly could be done without getting too burdensome if you already have each teams record split into the three components versus just their win pct.
Tracked by win percentage and multiplier. Next season I'm going to start fresh and create a pivot table with every result. Way too much play catch-up now... I will be like an unofficial Joe Lunardi bracketologist for d3soccer.
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 20, 2015, 02:52:27 PM
This Stevens v RUN is a HUGE game for both teams...Personally, the ONLY good win on Stevens resume is v Haverford. Is it just me or does Stevens need a couple more good WINS if they do not win the Empire 8 they could be on the bubble
I don't see Newark getting a positive result here.
RUN is in total control of their own destiny with their last 4 games. If they go 3-1-0 or even better 3-0-1 they will have to be considered on the right side of the bubble.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 20, 2015, 09:34:06 AM
I was going to comment on that CMU slot as well. The win over Messiah and close lose to Kenyon has them extremely overvalued...
Some big games today:
F&M at Muhlenberg
Eastern at Wilkes (never discredit a home team in some windy weather).
OWU at DePauw
Plymouth St at Middlebury
Stevens at Rutgers-Newark
Alvernia at Hood
Miseri at Kings
K-zoo at Hope
York at Wesley (for a strong position in the CAC table)
Messiah at Widener (upset special, where Widener can steal a point)
Wartburg at UW-Platteville
Lycoming at LVC 0-0 60 min in... shot count 6-2
Lycoming wins 1-0. Messiah up 3-0 25 minutes in. F&M tied 0-0 with Mules. Eastern up 1-0 on Wilkes.
F&M now up 1-0 on Muhlenberg
Ohio Wesleyan wins at DePauw 3-2, taking over sole possession of first in the NCAC in the process. That was a big, big win for OWU, which really lacked a signature W so far this year.
What time will the rankings be released tomorrow?
They are usually released by 1:00 pm.
I think it has typically varied from around 1pm to 3pm with the first week running a little later than subsequent weeks. And often times the men's and women's rankings do not get posted at the same time, but it's not always consistent which gets published first. It's two different committees doing the rankings.
Today's Best Tilts
Thomas More @ Grove City -- 1:00 start for this one and one of last semi-chances for TMC to pick up a loss.
Wesleyan @ Trinity -- Must win for Wes to say alive for a bid and assume Trinity must win to stay alive for 'CAC playoffs.
Montclair @ MCLA -- Maybe the oddest scheduled game I've seen all year.
Hamilton @ Williams -- Williams MUST win.
NC Wesleyan @ Methodist -- Key USAC battle with four teams still very much alive.
Wentworth @ Endicott -- One the underrated games on the day as Wentworth has been pretty good and added insult to injury with WPI.
Salisbury @ Christopher Newport -- Agree with lastguy, but the Captains really need to start getting in-form, and Salisbury will be good test for that.
Rutgers-Camden @ Swat -- Very down year for the Swatties, reduced to spoiler role, and Camden needs to get rolling NOW to have a shot in NJAC tourney.
Mt. Aloysius @ CMU -- Another sleeper. Took me 15 minutes to figure out their conference but the "Mounties" are tied in the AMCC with PS-Behrend at 7-0.
Lynchburg @ Roanoke -- A candidate for game of the night. Watch at least 10 minutes if you can to get a sense for this classic ODAC derby.
Birm-Southern @ Emory -- Both teams need a good win and no more blemishes.
Mass-Boston @ MIT -- Fascinating contrast of styles and player backgrounds.
RPI @ Skidmore -- Does RPI still have a pulse? And is Skidmore gonna skid?
Rowan @ Kean -- An old-fashioned NJAC donnybrook with bid implications.
Luther @ UW-Osh -- UW-O can ill-afford another blemish, especially a loss, to the visiting Norse.
UW-W @ Dubuque -- See above, except not as dire.
North Park @ Carthage -- North Park also cannot afford any more stumbles.
Occidental @ Redlands -- The nightcap at 10:00 pm, with video, and a lot on the line with the top two SCIAC squads. Anothe game of night candidate.
Overall, a compelling slate of games.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 21, 2015, 09:12:18 AM
I think it has typically varied from around 1pm to 3pm with the first week running a little later than subsequent weeks. And often times the men's and women's rankings do not get posted at the same time, but it's not always consistent which gets published first. It's two different committees doing the rankings.
Also,
To re-iterate while the 1st Rankings are very important and give us an idea of what the committee is thinking, the 2nd rankings on 10-28 are MUCh more important because of the Record v Ranked and weighted SOS and OWP and OOWP
Yes, the introduction of the record vs. ranked opponents in week two can and does have an impact, but the SOS (2/3 OWP + 1/3 OOWP with the home & away multipliers are applied) is in play from week 1. So no need to wait for next week to see where teams are stacking up using the NCAA SOS (as opposed to Massey or Bennet Rank or some of the quick-n-dirty OWP numbers different posters have computed). And I don't know that we really see much more movement between weeks 1 and 2 than between weeks 2 and 3 just because the record vs. ranked comes into to play in week 2. There's all sorts of things that can impact one's placement in the rankings each week, so introducing a fifth criteria in week 2, even one that we both deduce to be highly valued by the committee, hasn't usually resulted in drastic changes that can only be explained by the results vs. ranked criteria.
Where should we be looking for the Regional Rankings... Linked up on d3soccer.com or just check NCAA.com?
Obviously, they will be up at NCAA.com first until D3soccer.com can get them "re-posted".
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 21, 2015, 12:18:19 PM
Yes, the introduction of the record vs. ranked opponents in week two can and does have an impact, but the SOS (2/3 OWP + 1/3 OOWP with the home & away multipliers are applied) is in play from week 1. So no need to wait for next week to see where teams are stacking up using the NCAA SOS (as opposed to Massey or Bennet Rank or some of the quick-n-dirty OWP numbers different posters have computed). And I don't know that we really see much more movement between weeks 1 and 2 than between weeks 2 and 3 just because the record vs. ranked comes into to play in week 2. There's all sorts of things that can impact one's placement in the rankings each week, so introducing a fifth criteria in week 2, even one that we both deduce to be highly valued by the committee, hasn't usually resulted in drastic changes that can only be explained by the results vs. ranked criteria.
Ok...Very accurate points....I just remember some Drastic MOVEMENT SIN 2013 AND 2014 IN CERTAIN REGIONS THAT HAD BEEN UNSEEN BEFORE
No, you very well might be correct. My memory isn't as good these days, so I can't remember specifics as well or which years, but there have been some big jumps/drops here and there. But my overall impression is that they remain exceptions, not rules. And you may be correct that the introduction of the record vs. ranked was a significant factor in those big movements. I'd have to hunt those cases down and review the data to form an opinion, and I'm not going to bother for now. Point being, yes, there is chance of some big movements, and it's not unheard of, but it also isn't the norm IMO.
Has there ever been any guidance (formal or informal) from the NCAA as to how the primary criteria, listed on pg. 21 of The Manual, are weighted, prioritized or evaluated? Has anyone been able to deduce the relative importance of each factor? I assume that some of the primary and secondary criteria never come into play vs. certain teams if the most important factors--whatever they may be--are significantly different for competitors within the region in question. Would seem to me that overall in-division record (won-lost %) and SOS would be the first sorts and potential filters, then RvR, then H2H, and finally (for primary criteria) RvCO's. Just curious. Thanks for any insights.
Well, the women's rankings are out. So the men's should be coming soon.
The Men's Data Sheets are up even though the new rankings are not yet. Have at it kids!
Men's Rankings are up.
NTRAL IN-DIVISION RECORD OVERALL RECORD
1. Calvin 13-0-1 14-0-1
2. Wheaton (Illinois) 9-3-2 9-3-2
3. North Park 11-3-0 11-3-0
4. Washington-St. Louis 9-2-3 9-2-3
5. Chicago 8-4-2 8-4-2
6. MSOE 10-4-0 10-4-0
East In-Division Record Overall Record
1. Plattsburgh St. 12-1-3 12-1-3
2. Stevens Institute of Technology 11-1-2 11-1-2
3. SUNY Oneonta 11-3-1 11-3-1
4. SUNY Cortland 9-4-2 9-4-2
5. Hobart 10-2-2 10-2-2
6. St. Lawrence 10-3-2 10-3-2
7. Rensselaer 9-3-3 9-3-3
Great Lakes In-Division Record Overall Record
1. Ohio Wesleyan 11-2-2 11-2-2
2. DePauw 9-1-3 9-1-3
3. Denison 9-2-2 9-2-2
4. Rose-Hulman 9-2-3 9-2-3
5. Thomas More 12-1-1 12-1-1
6. CWRU 11-2-1 11-2-1
7. Kenyon 11-1-0 11-1-0
8 Ohio Northern 13-3-0 13-3-0
Mid-Atlantic In-Division Record Overall Record
1. Franklin & Marshall 13-0-0 13-0-0
2. Lycoming 11-1-2 11-1-2
3. Elizabethtown 13-1-1 13-1-1
4. Haverford 11-3-0 11-3-0
5. Eastern 12-0-2 12-0-2
6. Dickinson 9-3-2 9-3-2
7. Messiah 9-4-1 9-4-1
8. Johns Hopkins 7-4-2 7-4-2
New England In-Division Record Overall Record
1. Amherst 13-0-0 13-0-0
2. Brandeis 12-2-1 12-2-1
3. Tufts 7-3-2 7-3-2
4. Eastern Conn. St. 12-2-1 12-2-1
5. UMass Boston 12-2-0 12-2-0
6. Middlebury 9-2-1 9-2-1
7. Connecticut College 8-3-1 8-3-1
8. Gordon 10-3-0 10-3-0
9. Wesleyan (CT) 7-4-1 7-4-1
10. MIT 11-1-1 11-1-1
11. Wentworth 11-3-0 11-3-0
12. Bridgewater St. 11-2-1 11-2-1
North In-Division Record Overall Record
1. Wisconsin-Whitewater 13-2-0 13-2-0
2. Loras 9-2-1 9-3-1
3. Macalester 9-0-5 9-0-5
4. Wisconsin-Oshkosh 10-2-2 10-2-2
5. Saint John's (MN) 10-2-2 10-2-2
6. Knox 11-1-3 11-1-3
7. Dubuque 10-3-1 10-3-1
South Atlantic In-Division Record Overall Record
1. Montclair St. 14-2-0 14-2-0
2. Stockton 12-3-1 12-3-1
3. Rowan 10-4-0 11-4-0
4. Salisbury 9-3-1 9-3-1
5. Kean 14-2-0 14-2-0
6. Rutgers-Newark 12-4-1 12-4-1
7. TCNJ 8-4-2 8-4-2
8. Christopher Newport 10-1-4 10-1-4
West In-Division Record Overall Record
1. Trinity (Texas) 13-2-0 13-2-0
2. Colorado College 11-2-2 11-2-2
3. Redlands 11-2-2 11-2-2
4. Texas-Dallas 12-1-1 13-1-1
5. Occidental 10-1-3 10-1-3
I am absolutely dumbfounded by some of these.....I can count 2 Handfuls that MAKE NO SENSE
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 21, 2015, 01:51:34 PM
I am absolutely dumbfounded by some of these.....I can count 2 Handfuls that MAKE NO SENSE
+1. I could not agree with you more strongly.
D3soccer.com has the rankings up now as well.
Great Lakes is certainly not what I expected, especially because it doesn't even count OWU's win over DePauw. My best guess is that without being able to use record vs ranked, strength of schedule is just a huge, huge factor. That would explain the difference between OWU (1st, .564), DePauw (2nd, .544), and Denison (3rd, .578) as compared to Thomas More (5th, .516), Case (6th, .523), and Kenyon (7th, .494) - especially when you'd have those bottom three ahead of the top three before last night's games. In that regard, the Case-Kenyon game being cancelled has been costly for both teams, but particularly for Kenyon, whose SOS just looks awful right now.
Messiah's SOS is given as .624 in the data sheet! WOW! That's very high . . . and very hard to beleive. I thought someone had computed their OWP and found it to be rather low which matches the general impression of their schedule this season. If that proves to be accurate (I'm haveing a hard time believing it is), their Pool C chances may be better than originally thought, but without a win or any ties versus ranked opponents, still slim.
Whitworth not even ranked!
This must have been let the externs take a crack at things week at NCAA HQ. So absurd can't even get upset about it.
Whitworth: .468 SOS
As Mr. Right and myself keep harping on, SOS and results vs. ranked opponents are the best predictors. And while the NCAA denied that there's a .500 SOS threshhold for ranking and selection, I'm not holding my breathe until I see a ranked team with a sub .500 SOS.
I'd be curious as to what everyone thinks are the more absurd rankings. To be honest, I haven't gotten caught up in the prediction game and trying to figure it out ahead of time, not have I taken much time yet to review the data sheets to see the actual SOS numbers, so I haven't had as strong a reaction to the rankings as obviously some of you have had.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 21, 2015, 02:42:54 PM
Whitworth: .468 SOS
Then the system is just inherently flawed. Don't get how Midd can be .580+ with all of their cupcakes and Whitworth .468 and Kenyon .510 or whatever. Two of the top five teams in the country with one barely ranked and other not ranked. This isn't Randolph ranked #15 in the country not being ranked....it's two top 5 teams.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 19, 2015, 04:58:59 PM
Looking at Whitworth OWP... it's a shockingly low .414 (.440 with remaining games).
AQ or Bust for this Nationally Ranked team...
Well, it's much higher than I had...
It may be flawed, but this is nothing new. It's probably just been a while since we had two teams so highly ranked in other polls with such low SOS's. If my memory serves (and it doesn't always anymore), Swarthmore was flirting with the No. 1 ranking back in 2009 or so and was unranked along with Dominican when the NCAA did implement (on what basis or authority was never clear) a .500 SOS threshhold. I think both teams got their SOS over .500 by selection Sunday, so it was a mute point, but I still get the feeling that a sub .500 SOS is a deal breaker.
Didn't Dominican make the 2009 Final 4?
Sounds right. And that's why there was such uproar over not ranking them and Swat in the first two NCAA rankings that year as both were considered Top 10 teams by everyone esle.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 21, 2015, 02:48:32 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 21, 2015, 02:42:54 PM
Whitworth: .468 SOS
Then the system is just inherently flawed. Don't get how Midd can be .580+ with all of their cupcakes and Whitworth .468 and Kenyon .510 or whatever. Two of the top five teams in the country with one barely ranked and other not ranked. This isn't Randolph ranked #15 in the country not being ranked....it's two top 5 teams.
You can't flaw factual numbers and other teams records......
I get that SOS matters, just don't get the discrepancies in the computations. RH just last night suggested OWU got their first big W, and that game doesn't even count for those rankings. They've played maybe 1-2 more competitive teams than Kenyon with overlap on Centre, Denison, Witt, Woos, DePauw and Otterbein, and then OWU also played Earlham, Spalding, Hanover, Albion. Kenyon played CMU and the Case game would have been about even with OWU playing ONU. Other than that, I would could TMC as the ONLY difference in quality in terms of added competition.
Kenyon will be fine. This will actually help them ironically.
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 21, 2015, 03:07:34 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 21, 2015, 02:48:32 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 21, 2015, 02:42:54 PM
Whitworth: .468 SOS
Then the system is just inherently flawed. Don't get how Midd can be .580+ with all of their cupcakes and Whitworth .468 and Kenyon .510 or whatever. Two of the top five teams in the country with one barely ranked and other not ranked. This isn't Randolph ranked #15 in the country not being ranked....it's two top 5 teams.
You can't flaw factual numbers and other teams records......
Are you kidding me? Of course you can. You can flaw how the numbers are reached and put together.
Sitting at #7 in that region Kenyon has work left to do...I agree they have gotten screwed but to say they will be fine is a bit of an understatement. In that region you must be in the top 4-5 to have a chance usually
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 21, 2015, 03:13:07 PM
Sitting at #7 in that region Kenyon has work left to do...I agree they have gotten screwed but to say they will be fine is a bit of an understatement. In that region you must be in the top 4-5 to have a chance usually
Of course, but the last week is far more important than the 1st. Luther went from #2 to unranked and maybe without even losing. Montclair was #1 or #2 and then #7 or #8 in week 3. In other words, by next week this week's ranking will mean nothing. If Kenyon had been #1 or #2 this week they would still have the same work to do.
Back to our regular programming, TMC easily handles Grove City 3-0. Juniet with another goal and 2 more assists, putting him at 13 G and 19 A I believe.
Yes but looking at their schedule closely I do not see many solid wins except for Denison. The Case game was cancelled and they loss to DePauw...I am thinking they MUST beat OWU...I hear you though as OWU's schedule is almost worse...It is definitely a head scratcher
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 21, 2015, 03:29:28 PM
Yes but looking at their schedule closely I do not see many solid wins except for Denison. The Case game was cancelled and they loss to DePauw...I am thinking they MUST beat OWU...I hear you though as OWU's schedule is almost worse...It is definitely a head scratcher
You don't count CMU as a solid win?
I do but the committee does not as they are not even ranked
I find the NCAA's SOS calculations to be a seriously flawed way of gauging/measuring the stregnth of a schedule. OWP and OOWP are factual mathematical data, yes. But the strength of a schedule is not a purely quanitfiable thing. Numerous attempts have be made to try to quantify it with formulas and equations, but they are all flawed. For example, Bennett Rank has St. Lawrence at #3 in the nation right now and Messiah at No. 10? Really? Flawed! Massey may do better, but still spits out some results that don't square with our own good judgment and discerment. And the NCAA Rankings, by putting so much weight on a SOS calculation that can so easily be shown to be a flawed reflection/measurement of schedule difficulty, is consequently flawed.
Mr.Right, remember that John Carroll was ranked #2 in the THIRD ranking and DID NOT get in. I think placement this week, despite the obvious uproar (including my own), will end up being barely a blip.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 21, 2015, 03:09:58 PM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 21, 2015, 03:07:34 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 21, 2015, 02:48:32 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 21, 2015, 02:42:54 PM
Whitworth: .468 SOS
Then the system is just inherently flawed. Don't get how Midd can be .580+ with all of their cupcakes and Whitworth .468 and Kenyon .510 or whatever. Two of the top five teams in the country with one barely ranked and other not ranked. This isn't Randolph ranked #15 in the country not being ranked....it's two top 5 teams.
You can't flaw factual numbers and other teams records......
Are you kidding me? Of course you can. You can flaw how the numbers are reached and put together.
Nope not kidding you actually. You know the criteria they use. You know the teams records and their opponents records. You know the formula. LastGuy has been doing calculations which have been spot on for the past two weeks. I don't know why this is a shock for you....
You keep eluding to wins vs ranked teams and vs solid teams which won't be used entirely until the next release of the rankings. In Kenyon's case you have other posters like Domino have showed you that Kenyon is 28/52 in region for SOS and the lowest of the 8 that are ranked. They have good wins vs CMU and Denison and a loss vs DePauw. Other than that they haven't played anybody. OWU game will be huge for them.
I think Kenyon is a good team and had them in my elite 8 predictions, but knowing that this first ranking is all SOS and win % I am not surprised where they are ranked. Just like Eastern in a region that I am more familiar with. They are #8/13 in the national polls, 2nd in NSCAA regional poll and yet they are #5 in the NCAA with an undefeated 12-0-2 record. I am not surprised by this because they play nobody, they are in a bad conference, and their SOS is right at the magical .500 mark. In Eastern's case the record vs ranked will help as they are 2-0. So I will be interested to see where they end up with that calculation added in.
My main point is that yes you may disagree but I am not sure why you are so shocked and outraged by something you probably should have expected if you follow the game at all.
MAF, understand what you are saying, but I can still say the method of calculation is flawed which is different than suggesting that an error was made in their calculation. As an aside, why do they even need a cmte if it's going to be solely numbers driven in their idiosyncratic way. At any rate, I didn't see any warnings from anyone here to expect Kenyon to be #7 or unranked. I understand this is irrelevant but just by the eye test there isn't any substantial difference in the schedules OWU vs Kenyon. And again, putting Kenyon aside, cannot see how TMC and CWRU can be below some of those other teams.. What about CMU. They played Messiah and Kenyon and play in the UAA. They had to think when they made that schedule they were doing the right thing. If Kenyon has ends up having 1-2 more blemishes and doesn't get in then I will express some outrage. And it's outrageous to suggest that their season is riding on next week's game with OWU. Even with the system as it is I do not believe it will play out that way.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 21, 2015, 03:31:06 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 21, 2015, 03:29:28 PM
Yes but looking at their schedule closely I do not see many solid wins except for Denison. The Case game was cancelled and they loss to DePauw...I am thinking they MUST beat OWU...I hear you though as OWU's schedule is almost worse...It is definitely a head scratcher
You don't count CMU as a solid win?
With respect to Kenyon in particular, they played most of their games at home, including all their more difficult games. Because of the multipliers for home and away (so well articulated by FW in his article and other posts), it's clear to me that Kenyon (and others with a balance of their games at home) pay a heavy penalty for beating good teams at home, or even worse for losing to good teams at home. Looked at in reverse, teams get very handsomely rewarded for winning away games and they get a bit of a break for losing away games...
In addition, no RvR impacts are yet factored into the calcs, so I can't recall who pointed this out, but the rankings that REALLY matter are next Wednesday's NCAA regional rankings, when all the "yeah, but we beat that team, and they lost to that team" stats are factored in... I'm certainly not the local expert here, but I would expect for the rankings to be shaken up a bit when this week's games are factored in as well as the RvR's for all the teams.
Finally, the NCAA doesn't apparently provide the weights they use for SoS and W/L% in determining ranks, but as I posted on the Great Lakes thread, they can't be evenly weighted, or the multiplication of the two factors, and the corresponding sorted rank order would get us to the actual rankings put out by NCAA today. I can only come up with 2-3 possible explanations, (though there may be many more...). 1) you have to know the weights of each factor to get to NCAA's rankings, or 2) there are subjective, qualitative factors at play that are not disclosed that are having material impacts to the rankings, and 3) there are other, potentially quantitative factors that are also undisclosed that are at play.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 21, 2015, 04:01:52 PM
MAF, understand what you are saying, but I can still say the method of calculation is flawed which is different than suggesting that an error was made in their calculation. As an aside, why do they even need a cmte if it's going to be solely numbers driven in their idiosyncratic way. At any rate, I didn't see any warnings from anyone here to expect Kenyon to be #7 or unranked. I understand this is irrelevant but just by the eye test there isn't any substantial difference in the schedules OWU vs Kenyon. And again, putting Kenyon aside, cannot see how TMC and CWRU can be below some of those other teams.. What about CMU. They played Messiah and Kenyon and play in the UAA. They had to think when they made that schedule they were doing the right thing. If Kenyon has ends up having 1-2 more blemishes and doesn't get in then I will express some outrage. And it's outrageous to suggest that their season is riding on next week's game with OWU. Even with the system as it is I do not believe it will play out that way.
I cannot say I disagree with anything you have stated. I agree with your assessment. I just am not as surprised I guess because it's the NCAA we are talking about. ;D
I think teams 5,6,7 are better than teams 2,3,4 in that region.
I don't know, but I highly doubt there is any mathematical weighting of the various primary criteria which are the following:
• Win-loss percentage against Division III opponents
• Division III head-to-head competition
• Results versus common Division III opponents
• Results versus ranked Division III teams at the time of selection
• Division III strength of schedule
Once the win pct., SOS, record vs. ranked, etc. are compliled/computed, I highly doubt they are feeding those numbers into yet another equation/formula. At that point it's a discussion.
It seems that SOS and wins (more so than record) versus ranked teams are the best predictors of ranking and eventually selection.
THE EAST IS A MESS.......No Skidmore.....SUNYAC gets 3 of the top 4 seeds...Stevens as a #2....Liberty League gets shafted again....
My EAST Rankings:
1. Plattsburgh
2. Skidmore
3. Oneonta St
4. Hobart
5. Stevens
6. SLU
7. RPI
WHY in the hell is Cortland St even ranked?????? Can 1 sane person answer this, they are 9-4-2 with NOT 1 Good win
Looks like Skidmore needs to go clean and MUST beat RPI and SLU this week
Without getting overly technical can someone explain how Midd has such a high SOS when most here presumed it would be devastatingly low and how there can be so much difference between an OWU and Kenyon when the schedules look so similar, and Kenyon has 1 blemish and OWU 4?
I think TJ is on to something with away and home games. This is the first year I can recall in the last 5 that Kenyon has more home games than away. Actually used to drive me crazy that they had so few home games!
Methodist crushed NC Wesleyan 6-0.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 21, 2015, 05:23:50 PM
Without getting overly technical can someone explain how Midd has such a high SOS when most here presumed it would be devastatingly low and how there can be so much difference between an OWU and Kenyon when the schedules look so similar, and Kenyon has 1 blemish and OWU 4?
I think TJ is on to something with away and home games. This is the first year I can recall in the last 5 that Kenyon has more home games than away. Actually used to drive me crazy that they had so few home games!
That is a very good point, NCAC. Midd had arguably the worst non-conference schedule imaginable. Sure, the NESCAC is a brutal conference, but very surprised their out of conference didn't drag them down.
Sounds like it's time for 'ol Tennessee Jed to pull out some Jack Daniels for everyone! Virtual shots are on me, all around!
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 21, 2015, 05:23:50 PM
Without getting overly technical can someone explain how Midd has such a high SOS when most here presumed it would be devastatingly low and how there can be so much difference between an OWU and Kenyon when the schedules look so similar, and Kenyon has 1 blemish and OWU 4?
I think TJ is on to something with away and home games. This is the first year I can recall in the last 5 that Kenyon has more home games than away. Actually used to drive me crazy that they had so few home games!
This is not gonna be totally accurate by any means, but it will be close enough for the purposes of illustration. Let's just say that Team ABC's SoS (without adjustment for home or away games) is .500 (randomly chosen for the sake of illustration). If every team that ABC played had the same OWP and ABC played all home games during the season, their adjusted SoS would go from .500 to .500(.85)=.425. If, on the other hand, ABC played all away games during the season, playing the exact same teams, in the exact same order, their adjusted SoS would go from .500 to .500(1.2)=.600. You can see in this example, that, while it's an academically exaggerated set of assumptions, the impact to the adjusted SoS's for the same team--simply based on home vs away games--is far too large an adjustment. Obviously, no team plays all of its games at home or away, but, as CS has pointed out in other threads, there's a roughly 50% difference in SoS potential for home vs. away games. They are giving teams a very, very strong incentive to only schedule tough games away, as a tough win at home is not worth much.
Back to the real world, teams that play a preponderance of their games at home (like Kenyon in 2015), are severely punished for it, even when they win. Teams who play a larger % of their games on the road in a given season are significantly rewarded for it. The difference between a .425 and a .600 is, in my humble opinion, far too great a correction for HFA. It should not mean the difference in eligibility all by itself and the multipliers are so large that it has the effect of overwhelming other factors.
If FW is correct, that the committees simply look at the raw data as data points but then make subjective decisions about how and where to place teams, then the entire process is more about who's representing your school on the regional committee than anything else, as it's clear to me from the numbers that are out there today, the regional rank has little to do w/ the numbers in several different regions.
Midd had a higher (slightly) SOS than Wesleyan. They play the exact same in-conference schedule. The only difference you could note is that Midd has already played Amherst and Wes hasn't yet. Otherwise, Midd's OOC games were Norwich, Green Mtn, Colby-Sawyer, Castleton, and Plymouth State. Wes played ECSU, Haverford (away, right, so even more credit), John Jay, WNEC, and Salve Regina. I'm sure the numbers were all plugged in correctly but which OOC schedule looks tougher, even significantly tougher?
From the general conversation, it seems like the main objection is to the SOS criteria, rather than the rankings using that criteria. When you look at the criteria, really paying attention to SOS because we have no record versus ranked, the first set of rankings really aren't that surprising.
Looking forward, the record-versus-ranked (RvR) will play a role, but SOS remains a big, big deal. Here are last year's at-large bids, from highest-to-lowest SOS:
TEAM (W%, SOS, RvR)
Brandeis (0.895, 0.633, 7-2-0)
Rochester (0.618, 0.627, 4-3-1)
Dickinson (0.667, 0.604, 3-3-1)
Emory (0.778, 0.603, 5-2-2)
North Park (0.711, 0.597, 2-4-0)
Wheaton (Mass) (0.810, 0.597, 2-2-2)
Amherst (0.833, 0.587, 0-1-2)
Coast Guard (0.806, 0.580, 2-1-1)
Tufts (0.750, 0.576, 1-1-2)
Loras (0.842, 0.575, 5-0-2)
F&M (0.889, 0.573, 3-1-1)
Brockport (0.684, 0.568, 1-3-2)
Rutgers-Newark (0.750, 0.557, 2-2-0)
OWU (0.762, 0.556, 4-2-2)
Salisbury (0.763, 0.556, 0-3-1)
Cortland (0.763, 0.547, 3-2-1)
Dominican (0.714, 0.545, 1-3-0)
Texas-Dallas (0.725, 0.516, 1-0-0)
So Texas-Dallas got in as an outlier with 0.516 SOS, but they were the only at-large from the West Region, and I'd guess most years every region gets at least one at-large. Outside of that, 0.545 is the lowest SOS out there.
The objection isn't exactly to the criteria, although that is a likely a complaint too. It's to how the criterion is formulated in a way that doesn't meet even a gross eye test. How could Midd's SOS be higher than Wesleyan's? Or OWU's substantially higher than Kenyon's when you look at the 2 schedules side by side. So how the SOS is reached seems problematic as much as whether or not that criterion is too highly valued.
Denison JUST BEFORE the rankings LOST Allegheny, TIED Wabash and LOST Kenyon.
Kenyon WON Wooster, WON Oberlin, WON head-to-head Denison.
DePauw also had TWO very weak performances against the two weakest conference teams leading right into the ranking.
There's got to be some basic common sense at some level. Results have to come into play at some point. Otherwise, a team could get in being winless as long as they play what by the formulation would consider the strongest schedule in the country.
BTW, Christopher Newport drew with Salisbury tonight and were #8 in the S. Atlantic, the last spot. Before tonight, would most folks have thought CNU would have to win their AQ?
MIT handling UMass-Bos 3-0. CMU not out of the woods with Mt Aloysius 1-1 late.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 21, 2015, 06:52:40 PM
Midd had a higher (slightly) SOS than Wesleyan. They play the exact same in-conference schedule. The only difference you could note is that Midd has already played Amherst and Wes hasn't yet. Otherwise, Midd's OOC games were Norwich, Green Mtn, Colby-Sawyer, Castleton, and Plymouth State. Wes played ECSU, Haverford (away, right, so even more credit), John Jay, WNEC, and Salve Regina. I'm sure the numbers were all plugged in correctly but which OOC schedule looks tougher, even significantly tougher?
Wesleyan out of conference opponents' record: 40-31-2 0.562
remaining schedule: 22-3-1 0.865
Middlebury out of conference opponents' record: 38-35-3 0.520
remaining schedule: 14-8-4 0.615
Given that their respective SOSs are roughly equal, one can reasonably assume that Wesleyan's SOS will indeed surpass Middlebury's by the end of the regular season. They have the same in-conference schedule, but they have not yet played the same in-conference schedule.
Quote from: Off Pitch on October 21, 2015, 08:50:16 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 21, 2015, 06:52:40 PM
Midd had a higher (slightly) SOS than Wesleyan. They play the exact same in-conference schedule. The only difference you could note is that Midd has already played Amherst and Wes hasn't yet. Otherwise, Midd's OOC games were Norwich, Green Mtn, Colby-Sawyer, Castleton, and Plymouth State. Wes played ECSU, Haverford (away, right, so even more credit), John Jay, WNEC, and Salve Regina. I'm sure the numbers were all plugged in correctly but which OOC schedule looks tougher, even significantly tougher?
Wesleyan out of conference opponents' record: 40-31-2 0.562
remaining schedule: 22-3-1 0.865
Middlebury out of conference opponents' record: 38-35-3 0.520
remaining schedule: 14-8-4 0.615
Given that their respective SOSs are roughly equal, one can reasonably assume that Wesleyan's SOS will indeed surpass Middlebury's by the end of the regular season. They have the same in-conference schedule, but they have not yet played the same in-conference schedule.
And your post reveals one of the biggest underlying flaws. Midd's .520 OOC number, while comparatively lower, is still way too HIGH. They played teams that play in the weakest conferences in the country, so a team may be 8-6, 6-8, or even 12-3 in that very weak conference and that counts the same as a 7-7 UAA or NESCAC team.
Think about this and then I will try to drop it for a while.
If Kenyon had won vs DePauw (not a stretch since they controlled the game and lost in OT), then leading into this ranking today, their record applicable to the ranking would have been 12-0, they likely still would have been ranked #1 nationally in both polls, and they, by merit according to the criteria as explained, would STILL have landed at #7 regionally. Now, yes, I'm a partisan, but that sounds downright crazy to me. And regarding Whitworth, I mean, who exactly are they supposed to play given their geographic location?
William Webb saves CMU, scoring with 4 minutes left to equalize and then again in OT.
Roanoke with big 1-0 win over Lynchburg.
Emory gets good win in OT over Birm-Southern.
Camden loses to Swat.
Rowan handling Kean, up 2-0 late.
RPI and Skid about to start 2nd OT.
OMG! RPI just won it at the death. RPI had the better chances from what I saw and missed 3 point blank sitters earlier in OT.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 21, 2015, 08:54:23 PM
And your post reveals one of the biggest underlying flaws. Midd's .520 OOC number, while comparatively lower, is still way too HIGH. They played teams that play in the weakest conferences in the country, so a team may be 8-6, 6-8, or even 12-3 in that very weak conference and that counts the same as a 7-7 UAA or NESCAC team.
Actually, no. That is the reason that it is not just OWP, but the OOWP is also factored in. The UAA or NESCAC team will have a much higher OOWP than a team from the weakest conference.
Quote from: Off Pitch on October 21, 2015, 09:52:46 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 21, 2015, 08:54:23 PM
And your post reveals one of the biggest underlying flaws. Midd's .520 OOC number, while comparatively lower, is still way too HIGH. They played teams that play in the weakest conferences in the country, so a team may be 8-6, 6-8, or even 12-3 in that very weak conference and that counts the same as a 7-7 UAA or NESCAC team.
Actually, no. That is the reason that it is not just OWP, but the OOWP is also factored in. The UAA or NESCAC team will have a much higher OOWP than a team from the weakest conference.
Not sure I see why that would necessarily be the case. If a top team from a weak conference boosts the OWP and that team's opponents are from conferences where wins and losses are distributed pretty typically why would that not result in a net advantage for the team playing a top team in a weak conference?
Quote from: Off Pitch on October 21, 2015, 08:50:16 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 21, 2015, 06:52:40 PM
Midd had a higher (slightly) SOS than Wesleyan. They play the exact same in-conference schedule. The only difference you could note is that Midd has already played Amherst and Wes hasn't yet. Otherwise, Midd's OOC games were Norwich, Green Mtn, Colby-Sawyer, Castleton, and Plymouth State. Wes played ECSU, Haverford (away, right, so even more credit), John Jay, WNEC, and Salve Regina. I'm sure the numbers were all plugged in correctly but which OOC schedule looks tougher, even significantly tougher?
Wesleyan out of conference opponents' record: 40-31-2 0.562
remaining schedule: 22-3-1 0.865
Middlebury out of conference opponents' record: 38-35-3 0.520
remaining schedule: 14-8-4 0.615
Given that their respective SOSs are roughly equal, one can reasonably assume that Wesleyan's SOS will indeed surpass Middlebury's by the end of the regular season. They have the same in-conference schedule, but they have not yet played the same in-conference schedule.
Not trying to nit pick the analysis above at all, but I don't think the calcs above prove or support the point you're trying to make. Looking at opponents' records in aggregate is not the way OWP's or OOWP's (therefore, SoS's) are calculated, and they distort much of what's going on with OWP's and OOWP's, and therefore, SoS's if you try to look at them that way, at least IMO. If you're saying that a proxy for OWP and/or OOWP is to look at aggregate records (unweighted for home vs. away, an calc'd as a single average), I understand the spirit of what you're trying to show, but I respectfully disagree with the conclusion. The OWP's and OOWP's used to figure SoS's are themselves averages of all of the individual OWP's for each team played and each team's opponents' opponents. In other words, there will be an OWP and an OOWP figure for each team played over the season, with an adjustment applied for home vs. away for each. When the last 3+/- games are played, each contributes an additional OWP and OOWP figure (again, each adjusted for home or away) for the season as a whole. (So, by now, a team with 13 games in it's existing record will have 13 OWP's and 13 OOWP's on a spreadsheet, each adjusted for home/away. Each additional game will contribute one additional set of OWP's and OOWP's.) For each weekly SoS calculation, all the weighted OWP-OOWP figures for each opponent will be averaged to get the team's SoS. The methodology above obfuscates the incremental nature of the calculation. The actual SoS will be far less sensitive to the 14th, 15th and 16th observations because each is adding incrementally less to the total. Above, it assumes that the past and future are roughly equal and it ignores whether the team played 2 opponents with flawless records and a whole bunch of team with weak records, or all teams with average records. The individual game OWP's and OOWP's will be far more sensitive. Additionally and importantly, even if Middlebury and Wesleyan have the exact same remaining schedules in terms of final 3 games, the SoS's will be impacted significantly (as much as 45-50% on a team by team basis) by whether each team (Middlebury or Wesleyan) plays each opponent at home or away. As an purely hypothetical example:
Date Opponent Opponent's OWP Middlebury Location Wesleyan Location Wtd Opp OWP for Midd Wtd Opp OWP for Wesleyan
10/24 ABC .500 Home Away .500 * .85 = .425 .500 * 1.2 = .600
10/27 XYZ .600 Away Home .600 * 1.2 = .720 .600 * .85 = .510
10/31 123 .400 Neutral Neutral .400 (no adjustment) .400 (no adjustment)
Therefore, you can see that it's not just the strength of the opponent that matters, but the location of the game in which the opponent is played. For Middlebury, playing a .400 team in a neutral location is virtually the same as playing a .500 team at home. Wesleyan is much better off playing a .500 team away for their SoS than they are by playing a .600 team at home. This says NOTHING about whether they win or lose the games--that's all captured in their W/L%, which the NCAA doesn't appear to care too much about, relative to SoS. What it says, and what I'm so surprised about, is that the OWP for the exact same team can vary from .425 to .600 or from .510 to .720 for the exact same team, depending on whether you play them at home or away. That's approximately equivalent to the saying that the exact same team simultaneously has 6-6-0 record for Wesleyan and a 9-3-0 record for Middlebury. How is that possible?
Assuming the numbers above were real numbers that were going to be used by each school for determining their incremental SoS's for the next 3 weeks of the season, prior to conf championships, each game figure would be averaged in, along with all the existing figures from all past weeks. So, if Midd and Wes had both played 13 games prior to 10/24, Midd would add .425 as the 14th OWP for determining SoS and Wesleyan would add .600 for the game they each played against team ABC. The following week, Midd would add .720 and Wesleyan would add .510 to all prior weeks (including 10/24 games and OWPs) and then rerun the averages. Since the denominator of the average goes up by 1 or 2 each week (equals the number of games in the week), each incremental OWP added will contribute less to the overall average for the team's SoS, making each game harder and harder to impact the overall SoS.
What can, and does, change is that all previous opponents are continuing to play games each week too, so past OWP's and OOWP's are not static--they must be updated each week too, making your existing SoS good only for a one week period (actually only until one previous opponent plays one new game). So, if previous opponents win more games, it will positively impact your OWP and SoS. Similarly, if a team that had a strong OWP and SoS weakens as the season goes on, then it will negatively impact your OWP and SoS as well.
Whitewater with the regionally ranked win out at Dubuque tonight, and Oshkosh loses 1-0 at home to Luther. Welcome to the NCAA Tournament Whitewater! (Pool B)
Quote from: TennesseeJed on October 21, 2015, 06:41:30 PM. . . .it's clear to me from the numbers that are out there today, the regional rank has little to do w/ the numbers in several different regions.
Which regions? Which teams/rankings?
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 21, 2015, 08:25:33 PM
The objection isn't exactly to the criteria, although that is a likely a complaint too. It's to how the criterion is formulated in a way that doesn't meet even a gross eye test. How could Midd's SOS be higher than Wesleyan's? Or OWU's substantially higher than Kenyon's when you look at the 2 schedules side by side. So how the SOS is reached seems problematic as much as whether or not that criterion is too highly valued.
I think we're on the same page, I'm referring to SOS as constructed, not in the abstract - it has to be a part of the rankings in some form. The question, aside from the weight it gets, is subjectivity versus objectivity. How much leeway do we want to give the committee? These guys don't get to watch everyone else play, and there's such a disparity from game-to-game in how teams play that you can't just leave it down to coaches having seen a team play once - that's not a good indicator. Plus, once you start relying on subjectivity you open up a whole new can of worms with potential for favoritism, reputation/talent versus production, etc. With very firm, data-based criteria, the guys on the committee matter less, even though it might come at the expense of, as you put it, common sense. I agree that there's probably a better middle road than what we're using now, but in a sport where even the most informed people have only seen a handful of teams multiple times, numbers are probably the safer route and do the least harm.
As an anecdotal example, here's the problem with eyeballing things. Without checking, I'd probably have agreed that there's not much difference between Kenyon and OWU's schedules. Then I looked at the non-conference. Kenyon's non-conference: combined record 42-52-10, Win% 0.452. OWU's non-conference: 86-59-7, Win%.589. That's not close at all. Granted, OWU lost to Ohio Northern and Thomas More, which accounts for most of the difference, but that also means that if you gave OWU Kenyon's schedule they're undefeated. Now, if you add in Case Western for Kenyon, the schedule jumps to 53-54-11, Win% 0.496, but still below .500. And that would have been a tougher game for Kenyon than anything they've seen outside DePauw.
Regardless, Kenyon still very much controls their own destiny. First, they can win the NCAC tournament again. Second, even if they don't, I don't think Pool C is out of the question. If we use 2014 and 2013 as baselines, there have been teams with SOS barely above .500 that get at-large bids - Texas-Dallas (.516) in 2014, and Gordon (.517) and Salisbury (.521) in 2013. Future games with OWU (maybe x2), Wabash (good win%) and a conference semi with DePauw/Denison would, I assume, get the SOS into the .520 range that puts them in the conversation.
If I'm Whitworth, I couldn't care less - there's no conference tournament and they have a 4 point lead in the NWC, so the automatic bid is easily attainable. Maybe it prevents them from hosting, but Trinity gets punished like that regularly, and it's just an unfortunate outcome based on geography.
RH, a couple of problems with your analysis. If you gave Kenyon's OWU's schedule, Kenyon would not have to be undefeated to have a claim. They could be ahead, even with, or even behind a spot, but not 6 spots. Secondly, yes, I think at a minimum Kenyon would have split TMC and ONU. Also, at least 12 of the losses you're counting on Kenyon's opponents record belong to a single team (Waynesburg). You saying Kenyon might still be in the running for a Pool C sort of shows how laughable this is. This morning I can't imagine that you could imagine writing that. I think you personally have Kenyon in your own top 5 nationally. And if the teams we're talking about were reversed in these circumstances?
A few points.
(1) TennesseeJed already made this point quite strongly a few posts up, but it bears repeating. Simply having the same remaining opponents does not mean the same impact on SOS due to home and away multipliers. Having, for example, having Amherst away and Colby at home is not insignificantly different from having Amherst at home and Colby on the road.
(2) Again, TJ or someone mentioned this in passing, but it bear repeating because of how often someone has mention winning or losing when discussing SOS. SOS has nothing to do with whether you won or lost (or will win or loss) versus your opponents. A win at home versus a tough opponent doesn't contribute any more or any less to a team's SOS than a loss at home to that same opponent.
(3) Your winning pct. does matter. No one is getting ranked on SOS alone. Babson has a very good SOS at .609, much much better than five of New England's ranked teams, but their winning pct. is a poor .533. They didn't get ranked. I'm the first to preach that SOS and wins (not so much record) vs. ranked opponents seem to be the most predictive criteria and I'm also on record as thinking it is weighted too heavily, but winning pct. isn't ignored.
(4) These rankings are numbers driven, that is clear. So if you want to understand them (which is different from agreeing with them) you can't just make general, subjective comparisons (like OWU's and Kenyon's schedule look about the same) and then throw your hands up and say it doesn't make sense. You need to quantify things, and when you do, a lot more things will make sense (again, it doesn't mean you have to like it or agree with it). As RH illustrated, there was a significant numerical difference in Kenyon's and OWU's non-conference schedule even if subjectively we might find them similar.
(5) The committees didn't spring anything on us. This criteria and their application of it has been in place for a long time. I just don't get much of the surprise, shock, confusion, outrage. (Again, that's not me saying I agree with the rankings and the process, the criteria, etc.)
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 21, 2015, 10:06:48 PM
Not sure I see why that would necessarily be the case. If a top team from a weak conference boosts the OWP and that team's opponents are from conferences where wins and losses are distributed pretty typically why would that not result in a net advantage for the team playing a top team in a weak conference?
The teams in the weak conference and the strong must play some non-conference games. The weak conference teams will not fare as well as the strong conference teams against non-conference opponents. If the conference is truly weak, they will collectively have a poor record. Comparatively, the stronger conference will feast on weaker out of conference competition. Therefore, the weak conference will have a weaker OOWP.
FW, regarding #4, not trying to just throw up my hands. When a difference is noted by some formulation regarding SOS, the difference computed doesn't make sense, and a subjective but reasonable look comparatively at the schedules raises a question about how the results were reached, I don't think that's unreasonable or unreasonable to question exactly how the results are derived. I DO get that that is how they are going to be derived, but trying to see if there are in fact any flaws is sort of a natural reaction. I also don't think the cmtes have no input, and at minimum could probably quickly determine "oh, that's odd, why is their SOS so low, then see that 10+ opponent losses cam from 1 team and 16 total from two teams or whatever, and then take that into account. The "outrage" is I think what any serious/passionate fan of a team everyone on this board would have expected to fall no lower than #2 or #3 regionally that has been in the conversation as the #1 team in the country would experience. It's easy to be dismissive of the results when the results fall very favorably for your own team, and I'll be the first to admit that I probably wouldn't have thought about it much at all if it happened to someone else's team, although in fairness to myself, while not being outraged about it I probably would have noted being blown away by something really unexpected.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 21, 2015, 10:27:24 PM
Quote from: TennesseeJed on October 21, 2015, 06:41:30 PM. . . .it's clear to me from the numbers that are out there today, the regional rank has little to do w/ the numbers in several different regions.
Which regions? Which teams/rankings?
The East and Great Lakes were the two that I was specifically referring to, but I think I could find others based on comments from others on various threads. Not trying to get too in the weeds about any one team or ranking, nor focus the conversation on "my" team (though I clearly have one...as most of us do.). My general problem is that the framework that you so carefully explained does not enable anyone to understand the process or outcomes well enough to replicate the actual regional rankings and predict future rankings with any degree of confidence. When you try to compare approaches across regions, there doesn't appear to be any explanation or consistency as to why one team may have been left out entirely, or why their rank is low or high relative to other teams in their region, or that enables or helps you to understand rankings for teams in other regions. There is no indication in what the NCAA put out in the Pre-C Manual, nor in what you wrote (unless I missed it) that suggests that SoS is more heavily weighted than any of the other primary factors. I don't have a problem if it is, I'd just like the NCAA to be transparent and consistent in how they're applying the criteria across teams and regions and, in my own analysis I just don't see it. I see that there is generally favor for teams with higher SoS's, which I understand. I don't see much of a link between Win% and rank, which surprises me. I also don't see any correlation to the ranked combination of win% combined with SoS in the rankings, which would have been my hope and expectation. It's the only figure, with the data available at the time of this ranking (RvR's will be added later) and provided by the NCAA (and detailed in the Pre-C Manual) that puts all teams on an equal playing field. Win % alone says nothing of schedule difficulty. SoS says nothing about how a team itself performed--it only compares how each team's opponents did. The combination of the two clearly states how each team performed relative to the competition it faced. The rankings are not consistent w/ that metric as far as I can tell, at least not in a number of cases where the ranks do not reflect the ranks of the teams' strength of schedule based performances (again, assuming my calcs are correct...I accept that this may all be a case of operator error on my part... ::)).
I think the SoS calcs are problematic for a number of reasons which I've written about elsewhere, most significantly the size and bias of home and away multipliers, which I think are far too large and end up falsely biasing all SoS's in favor of teams with higher % away schedules (assuming I understand the math correctly), but as long as they're consistently applied, they're at least consistently applied--(note, I wouldn't agree that they're fair, given that they're biased, but at least this bias is transparent).
If you want to get more into specific teams and regions I'm happy to dig in further with you but I'd rather do it offline. Feel free to email or PM me if you'd like to discuss.
NCAC, I totally get it. I'm not at all arguing it from a personal perspective, just from what the committee has to go on. The criteria are pretty clear, and right now Kenyon's SOS is just so, so, so low, I don't know what choice the committee has. The second they say "okay, we know Kenyon is better than seventh, let's bump teams down," they're going against the criteria for an NCAA bid. And how does the committee then explain things to teams so that they can set up their schedule for future seasons? The exercise above was just to illustrate the difficulty with taking a "let's do what we think, rather than what the book and the numbers say" approach to things.
This conversation does seem to pop up regularly, so you would think it would lead coaches to schedule to avoid it as much as possible. As for role reversal, I know that OWU intentionally schedules to avoid this problem. That's the obvious solution, aside from the most obvious, which is to win the AQ and make this whole exercise moot. I agree that, at a minimum, the Kenyon-Case game should have been rescheduled. Anyway, I'm with you that the regional rankings, as currently constructed, don't seem lined up with the general opinion on these teams. We'll see if that remains the case once the regular season wraps and record-versus-ranked comes into play.
As for the outrage, maybe the added press, the website, and another set of national rankings increase the contrast between the regional rankings and perception? As FW noted, this should surprise no one, especially coaches who have served on the NCAA committee. This is just the setup we have right now, and it's been this way for years. After seeing Kenyon's and Whitworth's SOS, I'm more surprised that Kenyon is ranked at all than that they're ranked 7th. Again, not based on where I would rank them, as I've had both teams in the Top 10 just about every Friday and would put both at/near the top of their regions. But if I was on the committee, rather than just ranking the teams as I see fit, I don't know what I'd do differently.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 21, 2015, 10:56:36 PMYou saying Kenyon might still be in the running for a Pool C sort of shows how laughable this is. This morning I can't imagine that you could imagine writing that. I think you personally have Kenyon in your own top 5 nationally.
Whether RH could have imagined that or not this morning is irrelevant if he never looked at the numbers. If you noticed, I avoided making any predictions as to rankings while so many on here were trying to do so. And I'm not saying nobody should have tried to make predictions. It can be fun and a challenging exercise--go for it! And I know attempts were made to estimate SOS's. But I knew that I didn't have the time or energy to dig into the numbers enough (read, compile tons of data and compute like crazy) so that I felt I had any solid basis for making predictions. If anyone couldn't imagine that this numbers-driven ranking process could produce rankings that were not compatible with their subjective sense of how teams should be ranked, well, I don't know what to say.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 21, 2015, 11:25:13 PMFW, regarding #4, not trying to just throw up my hands. When a difference is noted by some formulation regarding SOS, the difference computed doesn't make sense, and a subjective but reasonable look comparatively at the schedules raises a question about how the results were reached, I don't think that's unreasonable or unreasonable to question exactly how the results are derived. I DO get that that is how they are going to be derived, but trying to see if there are in fact any flaws is sort of a natural reaction. I also don't think the cmtes have no input, and at minimum could probably quickly determine "oh, that's odd, why is their SOS so low, then see that 10+ opponent losses cam from 1 team and 16 total from two teams or whatever, and then take that into account. The "outrage" is I think what any serious/passionate fan of a team everyone on this board would have expected to fall no lower than #2 or #3 regionally that has been in the conversation as the #1 team in the country would experience. It's easy to be dismissive of the results when the results fall very favorably for your own team, and I'll be the first to admit that I probably wouldn't have thought about it much at all if it happened to someone else's team, although in fairness to myself, while not being outraged about it I probably would have noted being blown away by something really unexpected.
It seemed to me you were content to subjectively and generally say the OWU's and Kenyon's schedules were comparable and therefore conclude that the difference in their position in the rankings didn't make sense. Just seemed an odd and unproductive approach (sans hard cold numbers) when its been oft stated how these rankings are very numbers-based. My point is that we didn't need to have the rankings come out to know the flaws in the SOS calculations, to know the flaws in an over-reliance on numbers, etc. Where was the consternation last week? We already knew everything we needed to know to be upset/frustrated/fill-in-the-blank. The criteria didn't change last minute on us. It's been this way for years. My opinion about the criteria, the SOS calculation, the seemingly hyper-quantitative process, etc. hasn't changed one bit having now seen this weeks rankings.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 21, 2015, 11:39:37 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 21, 2015, 10:56:36 PMYou saying Kenyon might still be in the running for a Pool C sort of shows how laughable this is. This morning I can't imagine that you could imagine writing that. I think you personally have Kenyon in your own top 5 nationally.
Whether RH could have imagined that or not this morning is irrelevant if he never looked at the numbers. If you noticed, I avoided making any predictions as to rankings while so many on here were trying to do so. And I'm not saying nobody should have tried to make predictions. It can be fun and a challenging exercise--go for it! And I know attempts were made to estimate SOS's. But I knew that I didn't have the time or energy to dig into the numbers enough (read, compile tons of data and compute like crazy) so that I felt I had any solid basis for making predictions. If anyone couldn't imagine that this numbers-driven ranking process could produce rankings that were not compatible with their subjective sense of how teams should be ranked, well, I don't know what to say.
And if you can't imagine that anyone wouldn't be surprised when the results came out, I don't know what to say.
And, yes, in fact, I still think the schedules
are comparable. And don't know how a school intentionally plans for this without knowing how what records opponents will have on a following year. And I think TMC's schedule has been more difficult than both, and I'd be just as surprised/outraged/fill-in-the-blank if I was a TMC fan. TMC should probably be #1 and in no scenario today lower than #2. Otherwise, now that's it's happened, I'm trying to understand how the numbers are derived. You may have understood and accepted how the numbers worked years ago. I'm confronted with it for the first time, so give me half a day.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 21, 2015, 11:09:44 PM
(4) These rankings are numbers driven, that is clear. So if you want to understand them (which is different from agreeing with them) you can't just make general, subjective comparisons (like OWU's and Kenyon's schedule look about the same) and then throw your hands up and say it doesn't make sense. You need to quantify things, and when you do, a lot more things will make sense (again, it doesn't mean you have to like it or agree with it). As RH illustrated, there was a significant numerical difference in Kenyon's and OWU's non-conference schedule even if subjectively we might find them similar.
Putting Kenyon and OWU aside entirely, the primary criteria listed by the NCAA are all quantitative, however they do not provide any quantitative disclosure for the rankings other than SoS and Win%, and neither figure, by itself, gets you to the rankings. Taken together, for the current week, they should, but there's no guidance as to how each data point was evaluated or rated or, if used in combination, how they were weighted. In a comment you made in reply to me on another post, you indicated (not verbatim, my best attempt to restate. apologies if I misstate your sentiment here) that you thought the committees used the raw data (Win % and SoS) as raw data inputs in their consideration and deliberations but ultimately made the decisions on rankings [subjectively] within the committees, guided by the data. If they are going off of ranked numerical statistics, they haven't given any of us the formulas that get them to the results. So, I think they're kind of numbers driven, but not entirely. I'd agree to numbers-directed or numbers-influenced. That's not the same as numbers driven. I'm actually arguing for an even tighter and stronger "numbers-driven" approach, where there's little left for the committee to do once the numbers have been tallied. As RH said in a related post, there's no way for most of the committee member coaches to see so many of the games that they're genuinely familiar with each team's performance and SoS, so a numbers-based approach is a better, less biased approach. RH seems to be suggest in a few posts that SoS (not sure if he's saying does or should, or both) far outweighs a team's performance in ranking decisions. I'd argue that that can't be, and isn't right, or Allegheny and Wittenberg would potentially sit atop the Great Lakes region. Similarly, if performance far outweighed SoS, PSU-Behrend might be the leader. Looking at both factors in concert, and as I said earlier, I would expect (and completely accept) that OWU should have a high rank in the GL region. I think we all agree that the two metrics, taken together, is an appropriate basis, on virtually all dimensions of the argument, for assessing rank. (Adding RvR's next week will make it even better.) The simplest numbers-driven approach would be to simply take the two numbers together to get a scaled, SoS adjusted performance rank. The rankings, as I've indicated elsewhere, do not follow this rank at all. So, if it's a numbers-driven process, they must follow some other function or calculation that assigns value to each metric. I'm just simply arguing that, if that's the case, disclose the calcs, or function or weights... Or, alternatively, if the approach is numbers-guided and the committees use the two metrics as general guidance, but they collaborate to determine, subjectively, what the committee thinks the rankings ought to be, then just disclose that.. I just want somebody to tell me clearly and concisely what is behind the rankings with enough detail that, if I wanted to reconstruct all the calcs, I could get to the same result.
I'm not saying that you're wrong about it being numbers-driven. It's just that none of us can prove you right, nor my hypothetical assertions about it being numbers-influenced, or even totally subjective, wrong. The NCAA hasn't disclosed its approach, so we just really don't know...
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 22, 2015, 12:16:50 AMYou may have understood and accepted how the numbers worked years ago. I'm confronted with it for the first time, so give me half a day.
I didn't realize this is the first time you were confronted with this. I thought you were following this for a few years. I can perfectly understand newcomers to the process/criteria/rankings/etc. having trouble coming to grips with it. I just honestly didn't think you were a newcomer to all this. Apologies for not taking you to be a newbie.
And I understand how people could be surprised because I know people built up expectations based on things not being considered by the committee and without considering things the committee does consider. And I know that no matter how much those in the know try to prepare others, most just have to experience for themselves. I mean, the importance of SOS (and wins vs. ranked) has been repeated by myself and Mr. Right (and maybe some others) so many times, but maybe it takes seeing a Kenyon get "punished" for a sub .500 SOS with a low ranking or seeing Whitworth go unranked for the reality of what we were saying to really sink in.
Anyway, have your half day. Didn't mean to take it away from you, I just honestly thought you would have had it before this year.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 22, 2015, 12:16:50 AMAnd, yes, in fact, I still think the schedules are comparable. And don't know how a school intentionally plans for this without knowing how what records opponents will have on a following year.
But you can
think they are comparable to your hearts content. That's your choice. However, if you want to come closer to an understanding of (not agreeing with) how the committee comes up with their rankings, you need to set aside what you think/feel for a second and quantify their schedules, ideally in a manner as consistent as possible with how the NCAA quantifies their schedules. And let me be clear, I'm not defending the committee and I'm not saying I agree with the rankings (I often don't) and I've often stated my opinion on what and how things like the SOS calculation are flawed. So, in that sense I sympathize with you and your frustrations, but I also have allowed myself to (a) recognize the criteria for what it is, (b) get a vague but helpful sense of how the committee applies/weights the criteria, and (c) have more realistic expectations for what the results of the process can/will be. Nevertheless, I've never gotten into the game of predicting their rankings, because the jump from the criteria and my sense of how they apply it to the rankings themselves is still a bit too much and too hard to predict. What is much easier to predict is the at-large selections because you have the three weekly regional rankings which provide a pretty reliable foreshadowing.
Quote from: TennesseeJed on October 22, 2015, 12:33:36 AM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 21, 2015, 11:09:44 PM
(4) These rankings are numbers driven, that is clear. So if you want to understand them (which is different from agreeing with them) you can't just make general, subjective comparisons (like OWU's and Kenyon's schedule look about the same) and then throw your hands up and say it doesn't make sense. You need to quantify things, and when you do, a lot more things will make sense (again, it doesn't mean you have to like it or agree with it). As RH illustrated, there was a significant numerical difference in Kenyon's and OWU's non-conference schedule even if subjectively we might find them similar.
Putting Kenyon and OWU aside entirely, the primary criteria listed by the NCAA are all quantitative, however they do not provide any quantitative disclosure for the rankings other than SoS and Win%, and neither figure, by itself, gets you to the rankings. Taken together, for the current week, they should, but there's no guidance as to how each data point was evaluated or rated or, if used in combination, how they were weighted. In a comment you made in reply to me on another post, you indicated (not verbatim, my best attempt to restate. apologies if I misstate your sentiment here) that you thought the committees used the raw data (Win % and SoS) as raw data inputs in their consideration and deliberations but ultimately made the decisions on rankings [subjectively] within the committees, guided by the data. If they are going off of ranked numerical statistics, they haven't given any of us the formulas that get them to the results. So, I think they're kind of numbers driven, but not entirely. I'd agree to numbers-directed or numbers-influenced. That's not the same as numbers driven. I'm actually arguing for an even tighter and stronger "numbers-driven" approach, where there's little left for the committee to do once the numbers have been tallied. As RH said in a related post, there's no way for most of the committee member coaches to see so many of the games that they're genuinely familiar with each team's performance and SoS, so a numbers-based approach is a better, less biased approach. RH seems to be suggest in a few posts that SoS (not sure if he's saying does or should, or both) far outweighs a team's performance in ranking decisions. I'd argue that that can't be, and isn't right, or Allegheny and Wittenberg would potentially sit atop the Great Lakes region. Similarly, if performance far outweighed SoS, PSU-Behrend might be the leader. Looking at both factors in concert, and as I said earlier, I would expect (and completely accept) that OWU should have a high rank in the GL region. I think we all agree that the two metrics, taken together, is an appropriate basis, on virtually all dimensions of the argument, for assessing rank. (Adding RvR's next week will make it even better.) The simplest numbers-driven approach would be to simply take the two numbers together to get a scaled, SoS adjusted performance rank. The rankings, as I've indicated elsewhere, do not follow this rank at all. So, if it's a numbers-driven process, they must follow some other function or calculation that assigns value to each metric. I'm just simply arguing that, if that's the case, disclose the calcs, or function or weights... Or, alternatively, if the approach is numbers-guided and the committees use the two metrics as general guidance, but they collaborate to determine, subjectively, what the committee thinks the rankings ought to be, then just disclose that.. I just want somebody to tell me clearly and concisely what is behind the rankings with enough detail that, if I wanted to reconstruct all the calcs, I could get to the same result.
I'm not saying that you're wrong about it being numbers-driven. It's just that none of us can prove you right, nor my hypothetical assertions about it being numbers-influenced, or even totally subjective, wrong. The NCAA hasn't disclosed its approach, so we just really don't know...
A few comments in response . . .
When I started using the term "numbers-driven" I simply meant the decision-making process (for rankings or at-large selections) seems to be much more quantitative than qualitative or subjective. I have no idea the breakdown, e.g. 75% quantitative, 25% subjective. It just seems to skew heavily towards quantitative. That's what I meant/mean by numbers-driven.
I'm just guessing when I say "I think the committee . . ." I have no inside info. I am trying to infer and deduce whatthe process may be like. It's just my feeling, nothing more, that they do NOT have some super formula that combines a quantification of each of the primary criteria and weighs and factors them and spits out who they should ranked where and that's that. I just think they at some point must discuss the data the criteria generates in a conference call. I can imagine that discussion being less thorough and more hurried in week 1 and being much detailed and lengthy on Selection Sunday. I think they have established, more informally than formally, what criteria is given more weight or is more determinate.
I have to laugh at the cry for more transparency. I'm not laughing at you and I'm not entirely disagreeing with you. I'm just thinking that the current process provides much more transparency than what came before it and some measure of predictability. So remembering those days before regional rankings leading up to Selection Sunday existed, before there was some formula for quantifying strength of schedule, before data sheets were released, etc., it's funny that all that which was done to provide transparency and predictability is now considered by a new generation and new set of eyes to lack the necessary transparency and predictability. Imagine not having the three regional rankings, no SOS formula, no data sheets and just checking in on the Monday before the tournament to find out who got selected for at-large berths. That's how it was for many years. Talk about surprises, confusion, bewilderment, etc.
Finally, I am not trying to prove myself right (right about what, exactly? I'm not making any concrete claims) and everybody else wrong (I actually agree with most of what everyone else thinks is wrong about the process and its outcomes) as we banter back and forth. I've been following all this for a very long time, since this approach began back in . . . 2003, right? So what I say comes from observing this over all those years. I share my deductions, my suspicions, my perspectives, etc. for whatever they are worth. I usually try to focus on sharing and educating, not winning an argument or putting anybody in their place. If I erred in the direction of the latter today, that's my wrong.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 22, 2015, 01:45:56 AM
Quote from: TennesseeJed on October 22, 2015, 12:33:36 AM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 21, 2015, 11:09:44 PM
(4) These rankings are numbers driven, that is clear. So if you want to understand them (which is different from agreeing with them) you can't just make general, subjective comparisons (like OWU's and Kenyon's schedule look about the same) and then throw your hands up and say it doesn't make sense. You need to quantify things, and when you do, a lot more things will make sense (again, it doesn't mean you have to like it or agree with it). As RH illustrated, there was a significant numerical difference in Kenyon's and OWU's non-conference schedule even if subjectively we might find them similar.
Putting Kenyon and OWU aside entirely, the primary criteria listed by the NCAA are all quantitative, however they do not provide any quantitative disclosure for the rankings other than SoS and Win%, and neither figure, by itself, gets you to the rankings. Taken together, for the current week, they should, but there's no guidance as to how each data point was evaluated or rated or, if used in combination, how they were weighted. In a comment you made in reply to me on another post, you indicated (not verbatim, my best attempt to restate. apologies if I misstate your sentiment here) that you thought the committees used the raw data (Win % and SoS) as raw data inputs in their consideration and deliberations but ultimately made the decisions on rankings [subjectively] within the committees, guided by the data. If they are going off of ranked numerical statistics, they haven't given any of us the formulas that get them to the results. So, I think they're kind of numbers driven, but not entirely. I'd agree to numbers-directed or numbers-influenced. That's not the same as numbers driven. I'm actually arguing for an even tighter and stronger "numbers-driven" approach, where there's little left for the committee to do once the numbers have been tallied. As RH said in a related post, there's no way for most of the committee member coaches to see so many of the games that they're genuinely familiar with each team's performance and SoS, so a numbers-based approach is a better, less biased approach. RH seems to be suggest in a few posts that SoS (not sure if he's saying does or should, or both) far outweighs a team's performance in ranking decisions. I'd argue that that can't be, and isn't right, or Allegheny and Wittenberg would potentially sit atop the Great Lakes region. Similarly, if performance far outweighed SoS, PSU-Behrend might be the leader. Looking at both factors in concert, and as I said earlier, I would expect (and completely accept) that OWU should have a high rank in the GL region. I think we all agree that the two metrics, taken together, is an appropriate basis, on virtually all dimensions of the argument, for assessing rank. (Adding RvR's next week will make it even better.) The simplest numbers-driven approach would be to simply take the two numbers together to get a scaled, SoS adjusted performance rank. The rankings, as I've indicated elsewhere, do not follow this rank at all. So, if it's a numbers-driven process, they must follow some other function or calculation that assigns value to each metric. I'm just simply arguing that, if that's the case, disclose the calcs, or function or weights... Or, alternatively, if the approach is numbers-guided and the committees use the two metrics as general guidance, but they collaborate to determine, subjectively, what the committee thinks the rankings ought to be, then just disclose that.. I just want somebody to tell me clearly and concisely what is behind the rankings with enough detail that, if I wanted to reconstruct all the calcs, I could get to the same result.
I'm not saying that you're wrong about it being numbers-driven. It's just that none of us can prove you right, nor my hypothetical assertions about it being numbers-influenced, or even totally subjective, wrong. The NCAA hasn't disclosed its approach, so we just really don't know...
A few comments in response . . .
When I started using the term "numbers-driven" I simply meant the decision-making process (for rankings or at-large selections) seems to be much more quantitative than qualitative or subjective. I have no idea the breakdown, e.g. 75% quantitative, 25% subjective. It just seems to skew heavily towards quantitative. That's what I meant/mean by numbers-driven.
I'm just guessing when I say "I think the committee . . ." I have no inside info. I am trying to infer and deduce whatthe process may be like. It's just my feeling, nothing more, that they do NOT have some super formula that combines a quantification of each of the primary criteria and weighs and factors them and spits out who they should ranked where and that's that. I just think they at some point must discuss the data the criteria generates in a conference call. I can imagine that discussion being less thorough and more hurried in week 1 and being much detailed and lengthy on Selection Sunday. I think they have established, more informally than formally, what criteria is given more weight or is more determinate.
I have to laugh at the cry for more transparency. I'm not laughing at you and I'm not entirely disagreeing with you. I'm just thinking that the current process provides much more transparency than what came before it and some measure of predictability. So remembering those days before regional rankings leading up to Selection Sunday existed, before there was some formula for quantifying strength of schedule, before data sheets were released, etc., it's funny that all that which was done to provide transparency and predictability is now considered by a new generation and new set of eyes to lack the necessary transparency and predictability. Imagine not having the three regional rankings, no SOS formula, no data sheets and just checking in on the Monday before the tournament to find out who got selected for at-large berths. That's how it was for many years. Talk about surprises, confusion, bewilderment, etc.
Finally, I am not trying to prove myself right (right about what, exactly? I'm not making any concrete claims) and everybody else wrong (I actually agree with most of what everyone else thinks is wrong about the process and its outcomes) as we banter back and forth. I've been following all this for a very long time, since this approach began back in . . . 2003, right? So what I say comes from observing this over all those years. I share my deductions, my suspicions, my perspectives, etc. for whatever they are worth. I usually try to focus on sharing and educating, not winning an argument or putting anybody in their place. If I erred in the direction of the latter today, that's my wrong.
FW, I didn't mean to overplay the point about it being a you right vs. me right or wrong, and I also did not mean to try to pin you down on your words about process, so sorry if it came across that way. My frustration is certainly not with you. On the contrary, I appreciate all your efforts to make this as transparent as you have. You've been a student and participant far longer than me. I'm really just reacting to some things I'm learning as a newer observer that strike me as odd, problematic, undesirable, etc. and also that create some surprises in the output that don't square with my understanding of the criteria and how they are [or probably, more accurately how I think they "should be"] applied. My real beef is w/ the NCAA for not making this more transparent. It's probably unrealistic for me to expect anything different from them and I take your point that the process is more transparent than it used to be. I also fully accept the point made by you or RH that the coaches should fully understand the process, particularly if they've served on Regional Committees before too and that there should be no surprises to them. Whether I like the process and results or not, I think I've taken up enough air time on my points and I'm perfectly content to move on. Thanks for taking the time to reply, and again, for all the work to try to demystify this process. I apologize if my responses made this feel like a competition or argument. Definitely not my intent.
No problems, no worries, TennesseeJed. I like a good, strong/opinionated exchange and don't get my feathers ruffled too easily or quickly.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 22, 2015, 08:51:20 AM
No problems, no worries, TennesseeJed. I like a good, strong/opinionated exchange and don't get my feathers ruffled too easily or quickly.
FW, what do you make of Messiah's chances after the release of the rankings? Obviously their record vs ranked will hurt them drastically but should remain ranked in the region. If Wash. Lee gets ranked that will give them 1 win but if not they are looking at 0-3-0 right now. Luckily for them CMU is not ranked or they would be 0-4-0 which is a possibility. If Hopkins slips and Gettysburg climbs that will at least give them 0-3-1. Thoughts?
Messiah will have no shot for a Pool C because of their Record v Ranked..
The one coach that I know of(I am sure there are more) that has the committee standards figured out is Amherst and Justin Serpone. He actually was the Nescac representative and New England representative a few years back. This is what he does:
5 Nescac road games
5 Nescac home games
5 Non-Conference road games
So 5 Home and 10 away. He also picks weaker teams from weaker leagues that will have an above .500 records. He knows he most likely will beat those teams and keep his SOS and OWP somewhat high at least into .580 SOS etc.. It is a very smart and commendable move by Serpone. I cannot even remember the last time he played a Non-Conference game at Home
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 22, 2015, 01:14:32 PM
The one coach that I know of(I am sure there are more) that has the committee standards figured out is Amherst and Justin Serpone. He actually was the Nescac representative and New England representative a few years back. This is what he does:
5 Nescac road games
5 Nescac home games
5 Non-Conference road games
So 5 Home and 10 away. He also picks weaker teams from weaker leagues that will have an above .500 records. He knows he most likely will beat those teams and keep his SOS and OWP somewhat high at least into .580 SOS etc.. It is a very smart and commendable move by Serpone. I cannot even remember the last time he played a Non-Conference game at Home
That's not good for the parents...too many road trips. But yes smart by a coach because of the home vs away multipliers etc...
Texas Dallas down 1-0 at half...uh oh
I was looking at the page with the 7 remaining unbeaten teams, and another "number" to throw in the mixer jumped out at me....GF and GA.
F&M -- 14-0 -- 1.000 -- GF 33 GA 4
Amherst 12-0 -- 1.000 -- GF 32 GA 2
Calvin 15-0-1 -- .969 -- GF 56 GA 4
Whitworth 12-0-1 -- .962 -- GF 37 GA 3
Whitworth has given up 2nd lowest number of goals in the country. Calvin's 4 GA also very impressive given Knights have played 16 games.
I am still baffled with Messiah's SOS. Considerably weak, but playing E-town and Lycoming on the road with the 1.25 factor bolsters their numbers. They are the benefactors, much like Calvin and Kean for playing so many road games.
I still believe that Messiah wins the AQ and Lyco will get an at-large bid.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 23, 2015, 01:47:19 PM
I am still baffled with Messiah's SOS. Considerably weak, but playing E-town and Lycoming on the road with the 1.25 factor bolsters their numbers. They are the benefactors, much like Calvin and Kean for playing so many road games.
I still believe that Messiah wins the AQ and Lyco will get an at-large bid.
Yes the Messiah SOS is completely baffling, especially when the past few years they have had a much stronger schedule and had much lower SOS...I will say this gain but Lycoming IMO is a bubble team but on the right side of the bubble..
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on August 25, 2015, 12:35:28 PM
Player with most goals in 2015? Mike Ryan (Golz, Colofranson, someone from CSS).
Team with the most shutouts? Kenyon
Will a team go unbeaten before the tourney this year? No
Longest unbeaten streak? Wheaton Ill (gonna be tough going into Loras and getting the W).
Over/under Messiah losses... 3.5? (over)
Over/under Tufts losses... 4 (over)
FINAL FOUR PREDICTIONS: Wheaton Ill, Trinity, Amherst, Rutgers-Camden (Elite 8: Loras, Ohio Wesleyan, SLU, Oneonta St). Messiah bows out in Sweet 16.
I'll have to remind myself to check this come tournament time... haha.
Well these predictions are somewhat balanced between completely accurate and totally off the wall...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQHM8wfzWBg
Swat goal vs Camden... 25 yd upper 90
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 23, 2015, 02:35:55 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQHM8wfzWBg
Swat goal vs Camden... 25 yd upper 90
Nice shot!!!
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 23, 2015, 01:50:31 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 23, 2015, 01:47:19 PM
I am still baffled with Messiah's SOS. Considerably weak, but playing E-town and Lycoming on the road with the 1.25 factor bolsters their numbers. They are the benefactors, much like Calvin and Kean for playing so many road games.
I still believe that Messiah wins the AQ and Lyco will get an at-large bid.
Yes the Messiah SOS is completely baffling, especially when the past few years they have had a much stronger schedule and had much lower SOS...I will say this gain but Lycoming IMO is a bubble team but on the right side of the bubble..
I guess no one enjoyed my Mid-Atlantic regional break down in that forum that I posted earlier.... :( :-[ :-\ :'(
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 23, 2015, 02:35:55 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQHM8wfzWBg
Swat goal vs Camden... 25 yd upper 90
Great strike but I m ust say the defender should have been in his mug so a shot could not get off....Lazy defending but a Great shot
Did anyone think that possibly the reason Thomas (ME) made it into the NSCAA Top 25 at 10-4 was because someone - maybe multiple people - meant to vote for Thomas More but instead just wrote "Thomas"? Would be pretty funny if true.
Off topic but the coach up at Thomas(ME) Chris Parsons is one of the least trusted coaches in the business...He is shady to say the least..
One example was he got red carded in a conference game on a Saturday a few years back and then proceeded to coach the next day against a non-conference team on Sunday. He got caught because the opposing coaches had spoken...He claimed he did not know that was the rule....Very Shady
Quote from: blooter442 on October 23, 2015, 02:54:49 PM
Did anyone think that possibly the reason Thomas (ME) made it into the NSCAA Top 25 at 10-4 was because someone - maybe multiple people - meant to vote for Thomas More but instead just wrote "Thomas"? Would be pretty funny if true.
Blooter, I had the identical question . . .
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 23, 2015, 01:50:31 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 23, 2015, 01:47:19 PMI am still baffled with Messiah's SOS. Considerably weak, but playing E-town and Lycoming on the road with the 1.25 factor bolsters their numbers. They are the benefactors, much like Calvin and Kean for playing so many road games.
I still believe that Messiah wins the AQ and Lyco will get an at-large bid.
Yes the Messiah SOS is completely baffling, especially when the past few years they have had a much stronger schedule and had much lower SOS...I will say this gain but Lycoming IMO is a bubble team but on the right side of the bubble..
Interesting that Messiah's SOS has come up. It's been bothering me since the data sheets came out, because like many I had the perceived their schedule to be weaker than usual this year. So a SOS as high as I could ever remember was very surprising. But I ran the numbers this morning to just come up with the OWP, removing the head to head results and applying the home/away multipliers and I came up with an OWP of .652. Now that can be expected to drop to around .590 by the end of their regular season schedule and then bounce back some probably (up to as high as +/- .610) if they reach the conference final and depending who their two opponents are. Hood in the semis and Lyco in the final would be the best-case scenario for boosting their OWP and SOS.
Anyway, looking over their schedule here's some observations and explanations for such a high SOS.
Well, first, let's review who they dropped and added to their schedule, and who remained.
DROPPED (6) : Montclair St., Dickinson, Catholic, Redlands, TCNJ, Neumann
ADDED (5): Carnegie Mellon, Washington & Lee, Randolph, Houghton, Allegheny
NON-CONF. CARRY-OVERS (5): Elizabethtown, Rowan, Gettysburg, York (Pa.), Misericordia
Subjectively, before the season, the teams dropped seemed better on the whole than the new additions, but there have been some surprises.
● Of the non-conference hold-overs Rowan and especially Elizabethtown have been surprisingly good
● The two winningest teams on their schedule, Elizabethtown and Lycoming, were played on the road which was a huge boost to their SOS with the away multiplier.
● New addition Washington & Lee has been surprisingly good
● New addition Randolph had been better than last year
● Dropped Catholic is having a poor season, their worst by far since 2007, so losing them actually helped
● Carnegie Mellon is having a better season than last year and were played on the road, so a helpful addition.
● They have played the top half of the Commonwealth Conf. (that won't hurt their SOS) already with the bottom half (that will pull down their SOS) yet to come.
● Conference foe Hood is having their best ever season and were played on the road.
Put that all together (W&L, Rowan, and E-town having unexpectently good to great seasons; two winningest opponents played away, playing best conf. foes first), and you have a surprisingly high SOS at this point of the season. The fact that the overall non-conference schedule isn't as strong was more than offset by a bunch of unexpected or fortunate things.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 23, 2015, 01:47:19 PM
I am still baffled with Messiah's SOS. Considerably weak, but playing E-town and Lycoming on the road with the 1.25 factor bolsters their numbers. They are the benefactors, much like Calvin and Kean for playing so many road games.
I still believe that Messiah wins the AQ and Lyco will get an at-large bid.
LastGuy,
I agree that Messiah wins the AQ. I don't think Lycoming has ever beaten Messiah twice in one season (FW would know for sure). That being said, Messiah's SOS won't matter. SOS only matters for those teams that don't get the AQ by winning their conference. My guess is Messiah doesn't pay an inordinate amount of attention to SOS. They have rarely had to worry about it for decades. They just plan to win their conference and move on. It's been two decades since Messiah missed the national tourney. I don't think that will change this year.
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 23, 2015, 02:49:14 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 23, 2015, 02:35:55 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQHM8wfzWBg
Swat goal vs Camden... 25 yd upper 90
Great strike but I m ust say the defender should have been in his mug so a shot could not get off....Lazy defending but a Great shot
Tough call, the overlapping run is there so if he steps to win the ball it gets through for a 1v1 with the GK.
Thought this might be fun to watch:
Zlatan Ibrahimovic ● Craziest Skills Ever ● Impossible Goals
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln35qLphK4I
In a big, big NCAC game featuring No. 20 DePauw at No. 23 Denison - also #2 and #3 in the Great Lakes regional rankings - Denison takes an early 1-0 lead. A Denison win would be big for their NCAC playoff hopes, but even bigger to cement their NCAA regional positioning.
1-1 now, spectacular side-volley, nearly a scissor kick (but not quite) by Gonzalez of DePauw to draw even. That kid can play.
F&M 1
Haverford 1
9 mins into the game
#1 F&M now down 2-1 to Haverford
18 to go in first half
Goals galore all over the country today...Haverford I think is the better team, let's see if they can hold onto the victory.
3-1 Haverford, really nice goal. Game is extremely open, I'm guessing it won't be the last goal.
Agree. This game is wide open - end to end. There will be more goals. Great game to watch.
When I have seen Haverford 2 times this year I am just so impressed with the way they attack and it is so much fun to watch...Very open games and even in there loss to Wesleyan(CT) it was extremely entertaining...They are a legit NCAA team
Sounds like a spectacular atmosphere, fans lining the field, singing, etc. F&M closed the half pretty well so I'd say this is far from over.
Also, F&M has the best penny game I've ever seen - yellow pennies with each player's number on it.
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 24, 2015, 02:43:21 PM
When I have seen Haverford 2 times this year I am just so impressed with the way they attack and it is so much fun to watch...Very open games and even in there loss to Wesleyan(CT) it was extremely entertaining...They are a legit NCAA team
Mr Right - I agree - this is my first time to see Haverford this year. They have a very attractive attacking style of play. And their defense has been very organized so far. Definitely a legit NCAA contender.
F&M 1
Haverford 3
Final
Impressive win from the Fords. They managed the game well in the second half, pushing fewer men forward but keeping F&M from getting at their goal through the middle of the field. F&M had more possession, but they were lacking creativity and a final ball in the attacking third. Also thought at times they could have just shot the ball rather than trying to dribble/thread through a well-organized Haverford defense. Good advert for DIII soccer and both teams will surely be in the tournament.
Saw the Haverford result coming...
Stockton beats Kean 2-0, strengthening tournament consideration.
Salisbury and Frostburg St heading to OT, 0-0
Stockton was already #2 in the South Atlantic, so saying this result strengthens their at-large selection chances might actually be an understatement. The Ospreys were under the radar much of the season, but that is over.
True. Kean's door is closing. Very little room for slip-ups
Mary Washington beats CNU... Captains on the bubble to make the CAC Conf Tournament
Whitworth goes down....2-0 to Pac Lutheran....Lutes 12-4 and 8-2.
Eastern goes down to King's.
Dickinson held to a draw with Swat.
Biggest winners of the night?
One more word on Pac Lutheran beating Whitworth. The Lutes are now 12-4 and before today's game were at a SOS of .543. That should increase having played Whitworth again. Is it conceivable the Lutes could get ranked while Whitworth doesn't?
Pacific Lutheran with a chance for the AQ, I'd consider them biggest winners.
Mary Washington over CNU
Brockport St over Plattsburgh St.
Tufts over Williams
SLU over Skidmore
Kings over Eastern
Camden over Newark
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 24, 2015, 10:04:16 PM
Pacific Lutheran with a chance for the AQ, I'd consider them biggest winners.
Mary Washington over CNU
Brockport St over Plattsburgh St.
Tufts over Williams
SLU over Skidmore
Kings over Eastern
Camden over Newark
Wow, you're right. Pac Luth needs Puget Sound to beat Whitworth tomorrow and then they will need to beat Puget Sound themselves on their last game. That would be something, but I'm also wondering if Pac Luth could play themselves into a Pool C even if Whitworth is clean.
Teams that could ill-afford slip ups:
Wesleyan 0-5 to Amherst
Newark 0-2 to Camden
Kean 0-2 to Stockton
CNU 1-2 to Mary Washington
Salisbury 0-0 to Frostburg St
Connecticut 1-2 to Bowdoin
RPI 1-2 to Vassar
Knox 1-2 to Monmouth
Teams that should be okay:
Eastern 0-1 to Kings
UWO - UWW loser
Plattsburgh St 2-3 to Brockport St
And the UWs in OT in a 0-0 game (of course).
NCAC Top 25 (thru 10/24)
1) Amherst
2) Calvin
3) Haverford
4) Franklin & Marshall
5) Montclair State
6) Thomas More
7) Brandeis
8) Kenyon
9) OWU
10) Oneonta State
11) Trinity (TX)
12) UW-Whitewater
13) Elizabethtown
14) Lycoming
15) Middlebury
16) Case Western
17) Stockton
18) Whitworth
19) Redlands
20) Macalester
21) Tufts
22) Wash U
23) Colorado College
24) MIT
25) Brockport State/Wheaton (Ill)/SLU/Loras (TIE) [Would make for a very solid Final Four!]
RV/Watch List (no order) -- Rowan, Kean, Messiah, Washington & Lee, ECSU, Randolph, Oglethorpe, Christopher Newport, Ohio Northern, Emory, Carnegie Mellon, Pacific Lutheran, Stevens, DePauw, Endicott, Gordon, Rose-Hulman, Texas-Dallas, Concordia (Wisc), Kalamazoo, North Park, Carthage, Cortland State, Plattsburgh State, Conn College, Bowdoin, Williams, Eastern, King's, Cabrini, UW-Oshkosh, UW-Superior, Greensboro, Rutgers-Camden, Rutgers-Newark, Methodist, Hobart, Skidmore, St Scholastica, UMass-Boston, Salisbury, Dickinson, Johns Hopkins, St Johns, Denison, York (PA), Westminster (MO), Morrisville, Keuka, Dominican, Milwaukee Engineering, Mt Aloysius, Penn State-Behrend, Wheaton (MA), Babson, Springfield, WPI, Bridgewater State, Roanoke, Wentworth, John Carroll, Capital, Wabash, Oberlin
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 24, 2015, 10:13:22 PM
Teams that could ill-afford slip ups:
Wesleyan 0-5 to Amherst
Newark 0-2 to Camden
Kean 0-2 to Stockton
CNU 1-2 to Mary Washington
Salisbury 0-0 to Frostburg St
Connecticut 1-2 to Bowdoin
RPI 1-2 to Vassar
Knox 1-2 to Monmouth
Teams that should be okay:
Eastern 0-1 to Kings
UWO - UWW loser
Plattsburgh St 2-3 to Brockport St
Plattsburgh will drop, they
lost got dominated by geneseo the day before. Geneseo did not even make the conference tournament
Calvin won again last night, 5-0, against 4-11-2 Adrian. They're cleaning up in the MIAA, with 26 goals for and 1 goal against in their last round through the MIAA (7 games). Other than Calvin, the MIAA doesn't have any team rated higher than #85 by Massey, though, and Calvin has played only one top-50 team this season. (And they didn't win.)
Still, it's fun to be able to say that they are undefeated since September 5, 2014, i.e. 36 games ago.
And then there were three....the Keuka Wolfpack have fallen to Bryn Athyn 1-0 (I think, as Live Stats has been frozen at 1:41 of 2nd half for quite some time). Keuka can still win the regular season in the NEAC in a showdown at home with nemesis Morrisville State on Saturday, and then the conference crown and AQ will be determined in the NEAC playoffs.
Amherst, the only unblemished team in the country, now joined as an unbeaten by only Calvin and Macalester.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 25, 2015, 10:45:24 AM
NCAC Top 25 (thru 10/24)
1) Amherst
2) Calvin
3) Haverford
4) Franklin & Marshall
5) Montclair State
6) Thomas More
7) Brandeis
8) Kenyon
9) OWU
10) Oneonta State
11) Trinity (TX)
12) UW-Whitewater
13) Elizabethtown
14) Lycoming
15) Middlebury
16) Case Western
17) Stockton
18) Whitworth
19) Redlands
20) Macalester
21) Tufts
22) Wash U
23) Colorado College
24) MIT
25) Brockport State/Wheaton (Ill)/SLU/Loras (TIE) [Would make for a very solid Final Four!]
RV/Watch List (no order) -- Rowan, Kean, Messiah, Washington & Lee, ECSU, Randolph, Oglethorpe, Christopher Newport, Ohio Northern, Emory, Carnegie Mellon, Pacific Lutheran, Stevens, DePauw, Endicott, Gordon, Rose-Hulman, Texas-Dallas, Concordia (Wisc), Kalamazoo, North Park, Carthage, Cortland State, Plattsburgh State, Conn College, Bowdoin, Williams, Eastern, King's, Cabrini, UW-Oshkosh, UW-Superior, Greensboro, Rutgers-Camden, Rutgers-Newark, Methodist, Hobart, Skidmore, St Scholastica, UMass-Boston, Salisbury, Dickinson, Johns Hopkins, St Johns, Denison, York (PA), Westminster (MO), Morrisville, Keuka, Dominican, Milwaukee Engineering, Mt Aloysius, Penn State-Behrend, Wheaton (MA), Babson, Springfield, WPI, Bridgewater State, Roanoke, Wentworth, John Carroll, Capital, Wabash, Oberlin
I would switch Tufts with Middlebury given that they beat them handily....
Nutmeg, I understand your POV. I already had Midd ranked and in my imaginary poll getting Tufts back well into my top 25 was a big jump for them already. Midd also currently in 2nd in the NESCAC, and I probably wouldn't call a 1-0 win that was 0-0 through 55 minutes beating them handily (notwithstanding a final shot count of 13 to 3). I would favor Tufts if they meet again but my rankings are not just based on who I think would beat who head to head. As another example, I wouldn't necessarily favor Thomas More over Kenyon or OWU (the current OWU and not the one TMC beat previously), but I think, sitting here today, that TMC has earned a higher ranking on overall merit.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 25, 2015, 05:58:11 PM
Nutmeg, I understand your POV. I already had Midd ranked and in my imaginary poll getting Tufts back well into my top 25 was a big jump for them already. Midd also currently in 2nd in the NESCAC, and I probably wouldn't call a 1-0 win that was 0-0 through 55 minutes beating them handily (notwithstanding a final shot count of 13 to 3). I would favor Tufts if they meet again but my rankings are not just based on who I think would beat who head to head. As another example, I wouldn't necessarily favor Thomas More over Kenyon or OWU (the current OWU and not the one TMC beat previously), but I think, sitting here today, that TMC has earned a higher ranking on overall merit.
Understandable...
Quote from: Nutmeg on October 25, 2015, 06:21:10 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 25, 2015, 05:58:11 PM
Nutmeg, I understand your POV. I already had Midd ranked and in my imaginary poll getting Tufts back well into my top 25 was a big jump for them already. Midd also currently in 2nd in the NESCAC, and I probably wouldn't call a 1-0 win that was 0-0 through 55 minutes beating them handily (notwithstanding a final shot count of 13 to 3). I would favor Tufts if they meet again but my rankings are not just based on who I think would beat who head to head. As another example, I wouldn't necessarily favor Thomas More over Kenyon or OWU (the current OWU and not the one TMC beat previously), but I think, sitting here today, that TMC has earned a higher ranking on overall merit.
Understandable...
Also, one addendum/caveat to the above, and this is part of what makes soccer exciting, compelling, loved, disliked, confounding, etc....you can outplay an opponent, even substantially, and still lose. And Midd, with their aerial abilities and danger on set pieces and capacity for a sudden strike against the run of play, I think is a particular team that could beat a Tufts (or anyone) even if "outplayed." I think the NESCAC tournament this year is going to be special and very entertaining. Amherst is going to be #1 in every real and mock poll in the country this week, unblemished in the NESCAC and overall, with some very capable and hungry teams who are trying to secure their own bids and who are familiar enough with Amherst to have no fear of the Lord Jeffs at all. If Amherst is still unblemished at the end of the NESCAC tournament I will say right now that Serpone has my cyber-vote for national COY.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 25, 2015, 07:02:01 PM
Quote from: Nutmeg on October 25, 2015, 06:21:10 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 25, 2015, 05:58:11 PM
Nutmeg, I understand your POV. I already had Midd ranked and in my imaginary poll getting Tufts back well into my top 25 was a big jump for them already. Midd also currently in 2nd in the NESCAC, and I probably wouldn't call a 1-0 win that was 0-0 through 55 minutes beating them handily (notwithstanding a final shot count of 13 to 3). I would favor Tufts if they meet again but my rankings are not just based on who I think would beat who head to head. As another example, I wouldn't necessarily favor Thomas More over Kenyon or OWU (the current OWU and not the one TMC beat previously), but I think, sitting here today, that TMC has earned a higher ranking on overall merit.
Understandable...
Also, one addendum/caveat to the above, and this is part of what makes soccer exciting, compelling, loved, disliked, confounding, etc....you can outplay an opponent, even substantially, and still lose. And Midd, with their aerial abilities and danger on set pieces and capacity for a sudden strike against the run of play, I think is a particular team that could beat a Tufts (or anyone) even if "outplayed." I think the NESCAC tournament this year is going to be special and very entertaining. Amherst is going to be #1 in every real and mock poll in the country this week, unblemished in the NESCAC and overall, with some very capable and hungry teams who are trying to secure their own bids and who are familiar enough with Amherst to have no fear of the Lord Jeffs at all. If Amherst is still unblemished at the end of the NESCAC tournament I will say right now that Serpone has my cyber-vote for national COY.
Regarding Serpone, I would reserve judgment to see how Amherst does in the NCAA tourney...
Whitworth rebounds with a critical win at Puget Sound. Meanwhile Texas-Dallas falters against Texas-Tyler 3-2.
And Randolph embroiled in a goalfest with Ferrum....3-3 at the half.
Weather Alert: Looks like games on Tuesday and especially many of the big slate of key games on Wednesday could be substantially impacted by very heavy rains Tuesday through Weds night (remnants of "Patricia"). Wonder how many might be moved to turf fields (if schools have them) and/or pushed over a day to Thursday.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 25, 2015, 09:47:00 PM
Weather Alert: Looks like games on Tuesday and especially many of the big slate of key games on Wednesday could be substantially impacted by very heavy rains Tuesday through Weds night (remnants of "Patricia"). Wonder how many might be moved to turf fields (if schools have them) and/or pushed over a day to Thursday.
Wednesday games will be a mess in the northeast region. Would hate to see weather alter the outcome of a game.
That's the best part...Weather usually benefits the underdog and teams will feel it for sure...
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 26, 2015, 01:14:16 PM
That's the best part...Weather usually benefits the underdog and teams will feel it for sure...
The question is poor conditions versus unplayable conditions, and maybe that will vary depending on the area. When I looked last night seemed like at least the entire Great Lakes region and much of the Northeast corridor could be looking at several inches of rain over 2 days. Also wondering if coaches will be hesistant to really tear up their fields right before playoffs and NCAA games.
Coaches will have no say on the tearing up the field issue....If the field does not properly drain well and their are huge puddles the coaches and the REF will call it as unplayable and it will either be cancelled or replayed....Conn's field will most likely be unplayable but they could go down to the turf field behind the gym
Does anyone know why the UMAC Conference awards the regular season champion the NCAA berth but still proceeds to have a conference tournament??
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 25, 2015, 10:45:24 AM
NCAC Top 25 (thru 10/24)
1) Amherst
2) Calvin
3) Haverford
4) Franklin & Marshall
5) Montclair State
6) Thomas More
7) Brandeis
8) Kenyon
9) OWU
10) Oneonta State
11) Trinity (TX)
12) UW-Whitewater
13) Elizabethtown
14) Lycoming
15) Middlebury
16) Case Western
17) Stockton
18) Whitworth
19) Redlands
20) Macalester
21) Tufts
22) Wash U
23) Colorado College
24) MIT
25) Brockport State/Wheaton (Ill)/SLU/Loras (TIE) [Would make for a very solid Final Four!]
RV/Watch List (no order) -- Rowan, Kean, Messiah, Washington & Lee, ECSU, Randolph, Oglethorpe, Christopher Newport, Ohio Northern, Emory, Carnegie Mellon, Pacific Lutheran, Stevens, DePauw, Endicott, Gordon, Rose-Hulman, Texas-Dallas, Concordia (Wisc), Kalamazoo, North Park, Carthage, Cortland State, Plattsburgh State, Conn College, Bowdoin, Williams, Eastern, King's, Cabrini, UW-Oshkosh, UW-Superior, Greensboro, Rutgers-Camden, Rutgers-Newark, Methodist, Hobart, Skidmore, St Scholastica, UMass-Boston, Salisbury, Dickinson, Johns Hopkins, St Johns, Denison, York (PA), Westminster (MO), Morrisville, Keuka, Dominican, Milwaukee Engineering, Mt Aloysius, Penn State-Behrend, Wheaton (MA), Babson, Springfield, WPI, Bridgewater State, Roanoke, Wentworth, John Carroll, Capital, Wabash, Oberlin
I'll take a stab at what I think the D3 Poll will look like tomorrow. Please keep in mind this is not what I think the rankings should be. Just a guess at what I think we will see tomorrow morning. Here a go:
# School 1 Amherst
2 Calvin
3 Kenyon
4 Trinity (Texas)
5 UW-Whitewater
6 Thomas More
7 Brandeis
8 F&M
9 Montclair St.
10 Etown
11 Oneonta St.
12 Haverford
13 Loras
14 Case West Reserve
15 Texas-Dallas
16 MIT
17 OWU
18 Tufts
19 Lycoming
20 DePauw
21 Eastern Connecticut
22 Stevens
23 Denison
24 Whitworth
25 Messiah
RV: Eastern, Plattsburgh St., Wash. U, Colorado College, Macalester, Middlebury, Redlands, Cabrini, Kings, Rowan, Stockton,Washington & Lee, Christopher Newport, Ohio Northern, Emory, Carnegie Mellon, Pacific Lutheran, Endicott, Gordon, Rose-Hulman, Concordia (Wisc), Kalamazoo, North Park, Carthage, Cortland State, Conn College, UW-Oshkosh, UW-Superior, Greensboro, Rutgers-Newark, Hobart, Skidmore, St Scholastica, UMass-Boston, Salisbury, Dickinson, Johns Hopkins, St Johns, York (PA), Keuka, Dominican, Milwaukee Engineering, Mt Aloysius, Penn State-Behrend, Wheaton (MA), Springfield, John Carroll, Capital, Wabash
Not bad but I would put money down that Middlebury cracks the Top 25
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 26, 2015, 04:10:53 PM
Not bad but I would put money down that Middlebury cracks the Top 25
Thanks! Like I said I don't agree with it but if it took Haverford this long to finally crack the top 25 then I wouldn't be surprised if they left Middlebury out. I agree that they should be in it but it's a complete guessing game this year with the D3 team's thoughts. Like we discussed a few weeks ago, seems they are 2 weeks behind.
And they had CMU ranked in the top 20...a team not even regionally ranked. Still baffled at how they were top 20 in D3's eyes. Also surprised they weren't at least in the last slot of regional rankings but like I said it's a coin flip this year! ;)
Spotlight Team of the Week: Concordia (Wis) University Falcons
As we wait for an enticing slate of high-profile games and the disintegrating remnants of Hurricane Patricia to drench fields of battle in the Midwest, Mid-Atlantic, and New England, let's aim our D3 soccer camera on Mequon, Wisconsin, the home of the Concordia (Wis) Falcons who are in the midst of one of the Falcons' most outstanding seasons in program history.
First, some of you while browsing the scoreboard on this site may have noticed at least a handful of schools named Concordia across the country, and that turns out to be no accident. Concordia (Wis) is part of the The Lutheran Church, Missouri-Synod and the Concordia University System, the latter of which is comprised of 10 universities and colleges. Concordia (Chicago) and Concordia (TX) are a couple of others that I've noticed most frequently. Mequon, Wisconsin is about 15 minutes north of Milwaukee nestled on the Western shore of Lake Michigan. Milwaukee has been one of the primary centers for the Lutheran Church in America with a long history of hosting Lutheran national conferences. Make sure you remember this next tidbit for a future trivia party: despite there being a Lutheran Wisconsin-Synod located right in Milwaukee, Concordia (Wis) belongs to the Missouri-Synod. That is a long and complicated story which requires a very good working knowledge of the history of the Lutheran Church in the United States (which I do not possess, but, as always, Google or Yahoo is your friend). The lovely campus built right on a bluff overlooking the Lake is relatively new for Concordia. The school purchased the property that previously was operated by the School Sisters of Notre Dame in 1982. The town of Mequon itself is a vibrant community of @ 25,000 residents and has made lists for America's most livable places.
The Concordia (Wis) University (CUW) Falcons have a proud tradition in athletics and especially soccer. The heart and soul of the Falcons program is Coach Tom Saleska, in his 23rd campaign at the helm. He has coached two sons at CUW, and one of his sons, John, a 2005 graduate, is currently the Director of Soccer Operations for the men's and women's programs as well as an assistant coach for the men's team. Coach Saleska has amassed 288 wins in his tenure, and he led CUW to back-to-back NCAA appearances in 2002 and 2003. Both times CUW ousted St. Norbert in the 1st round and were dispatched in the 2nd round by Wheaton (Ill).
After a sobering 7-11-2 2014 season, CUW stands at 14-2-1 and is in 1st place in the NACC, with Milwaukee Engineering, Dominican, and Aurora nipping at their heels. The NACC tournament is setting up to be fiercely competitive as all four of those schools will scrap for the precious conference AQ. The NACC usually is a one-bid league, although last year Milwaukee Engineering earned the AQ and usual conference champion Dominican landed a Pool C at-large bid. CUW in 2015 holds impressive wins over UW-Whitewater and Dominican, with the victory over the latter the first for the Falcons since 2002. This year the Falcon attack is headlined by standout senior forward, Keegan Van Dusseldorp who already is on 29 points with 11 goals and 7 assists, and boasts career numbers of 37 goals and 11 assists. Pulling the strings in the midfield is senior Diego Campos with 2 goals and 10 assists. Additional firepower is provided by frosh sensation Dagoberto Diaz (an Oregon product) with 7 goals and 3 assists, junior forward Jordan Moehn with 7 goals and 1 assist, and sophomore forward Luis Loya who has 3 goals and 5 assists.
The Falcons are flying, sporting one of the nation's more impressive winning streaks, now at 8 games. CUW was not ranked in the first NCAA regional rankings for the Central Region, despite their record and a SOS of .527. The only NACC team to be ranked was 12-4 Milwaukee Engineering, in the very last Central slot, sporting a gaudy SOS of .599.
Best of luck to CUW as the Falcons come down the stretch in 2015.
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 26, 2015, 01:14:16 PM
That's the best part...Weather usually benefits the underdog and teams will feel it for sure...
Although Amherst excels in foul weather.
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 26, 2015, 01:29:02 PM
Coaches will have no say on the tearing up the field issue....If the field does not properly drain well and their are huge puddles the coaches and the REF will call it as unplayable and it will either be cancelled or replayed....Conn's field will most likely be unplayable but they could go down to the turf field behind the gym
I'll never forget a game my older son played in about ten years ago (on our home field, no less). (This was high school.) For some reason they refused to postpone the game. The ball would literally float away from players in the 'ponds'! We won when my son came up with the idea of lofting the ball to the middle of the pond in front of the opposing goal, where his 'accomplice' (a talented forward) would kick in in before it ever hit the water! (Being teenagers, and not too cold of a day, all the players on both the winning and losing teams absolutely loved the game!)
I'm not sure I would call what they played 'soccer', but it was hilarious at times! ;D (Numerous times players just couldn't resist doing slide tackles of imaginary opponents just for the splashing. ;))
Just for the record, it was not raining during the game, or my memories would probably not be so fond.
Oh, and yes, it did totally destroy the field for the remainder of the season. :P
D3soccer.com Men's Top 25, Week 8
Through games of Sunday, October 25, 2015
# School (1st Pl. Votes) Record Pts. Prev.
1 Amherst (19) 14-0-0 996 2
2 Kenyon 13-1-0 928 3
3 Trinity (Texas) (1) 15-2-0 884 5
4 Calvin 16-0-1 878 4
5 Franklin & Marshall 14-1-0 836 1
6 Thomas More 14-1-1 764 8
7 Brandeis 12-2-1 742 9
8 Montclair State 16-2-0 710 10
9 UW-Whitewater 14-2-1 676 7
10 Elizabethtown 15-1-1 662 11
11 Oneonta State 13-3-1 588 14
12 Whitworth 13-1-1 542 6
13 Carnegie Mellon 9-2-3 461 19
14 Haverford 12-3-0 419 —
15 Case Western Reserve 12-2-1 387 22
16 Eastern Connecticut 13-2-1 354 21
17 Ohio Wesleyan 13-2-2 342 —
18 MIT 13-1-1 326 24
19 Eastern 13-1-2 274 13
20 Denison 10-2-3 215 23
21 Middlebury 11-2-1 185 —
22 Tufts 9-3-2 184 —
23 Loras 11-4-1 170 18
24 Colorado College 12-2-2 155 —
25 Texas-Dallas 13-2-2 151 12
Dropped out: No. 15 Christopher Newport, No. 16 Plattsburgh State, No. 17 Kean, No. 20 DePauw, No. 25 Stevens
Receiving Votes: Christopher Newport 144, Lycoming 133, DePauw 64, Macalester 42, Pacific Lutheran 36, Redlands 34, Stockton 28, Plattsburgh State 24, Messiah 22, St. Lawrence 20, Washington U. 12, Stevens 8, Milwaukee Engineering 6, St. Scholastica 6, Kean 6, Concordia (Wis.) 4, Endicott 2
The D3soccer.com Top 25 is voted on by a panel of coaches, Sports Information Directors and D3soccer.com staff, and is published weekly.
CMU at #13 is a crime let alone being top 25.
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 27, 2015, 08:35:47 AM
CMU at #13 is a crime let alone being top 25.
Yes CMU isn't even regionally ranked!!! (By the NCAA) Also thought Eastern would drop more than they did for losing to a non-ranked team and poor SOS. Surprised that Loras is back in with 4 losses. Thought Lycoming would crack the top 25 over teams like Dension, Eastern, Loras, Texas-Dallas, Whitworth. Interesting selections but I guess it always is.
Yeah. I don't get the Carnegie Mellon votes, and especially up that high. They certainly are riding that opening weekend win over Messiah (and the 4-3 loss to Kenyon) for all its worth and then some.
Suprised there wasn't more support for the NJAC #2 seed Stockton. Instead Chris. Newport almost hangs in there, but does just miss out.
The combination of recent blemishes and weak schedule I thought should have dropped Eastern out.
Redlands wouldn't have been a bad vote, IMO, but they didn't garner too many votes apparently, but enough to be on everyone's radar come next week.
I won't have Eastern Connecticut that high if ranked at all.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 27, 2015, 09:22:27 AM
Yeah. I don't get the Carnegie Mellon votes, and especially up that high. They certainly are riding that opening weekend win over Messiah (and the 4-3 loss to Kenyon) for all its worth and then some.
I agree. Crazy thing is where they'd likely be if they had managed to
get a result against Kenyon. :o That Messiah win looked impressive at the time of writing IMHO, and especially considering Webb scored a hat-trick, but as their season has continued it's had less and less credence in my book.
Denison moves UP 3 spots going 1-2-2 in last five. CMU moves UP 6 spots going 2-1-2 in last five.
CMU and Case Western are in an interesting situation, especially since both are in Great Lakes. Case is 3-1 in the UAA while CMU sits at 1-2-2, but they have common opponents (Wash U and Chicago) for the next two games, all AWAY for both, and then finish the season against each other at Case. CMU and Case have potential for flipping in terms of the UAA and more importantly positioning for the regional rankings. That last game could be for a NCAA bid, especially if CMU has a good weekend this week.
National Poll 10/27
http://www.nscaa.com/rankings/4805 (http://www.nscaa.com/rankings/4805)
Quote from: Golden_Fan on October 27, 2015, 11:38:18 AM
National Poll 10/27
http://www.nscaa.com/rankings/4805 (http://www.nscaa.com/rankings/4805)
Tufts nor Middlebury receiving a vote, especially given Tufts SOS... Hmmm.
Quote from: Brother Flounder on October 27, 2015, 11:54:53 AM
Quote from: Golden_Fan on October 27, 2015, 11:38:18 AM
National Poll 10/27
http://www.nscaa.com/rankings/4805 (http://www.nscaa.com/rankings/4805)
Tufts nor Middlebury receiving a vote, especially given Tufts SOS... Hmmm.
From what I have read on here in the past and come to understand is that the NSCAA Top 25 is based soley off where you are ranked regionally. So slots 1-7 should be the #1 regional seeds then continue down the list. So slots 8-14 are the #2 seeds and so on and so forth. This would explain why Middlebury hasn't RV because they are currently 8th in the region which means they are no where near RV. As for Tufts they are 5th behind ECSU who also didn't RV which means they aren't close either.
It also explains Stockton's huge jump to #14 after not being ranked nor RV in the last poll. They went from 6th last week to 2nd this week regionally which caused the jump.
But how could you explain Wash U being ranked #11, despite being ranked 4th in the Central region, with North Park and Wheaton(Ill) ranked much further down, yet they are ranked 3rd and 2nd? Shouldn't their regional ranking be higher if they are also being ranked higher, and with a victory against Wheaton as well?
Quote from: Scoring Machine on October 27, 2015, 01:59:34 PM
But how could you explain Wash U being ranked #11, despite being ranked 4th in the Central region, with North Park and Wheaton(Ill) ranked much further down, yet they are ranked 3rd and 2nd? Shouldn't their regional ranking be higher if they are also being ranked higher, and with a victory against Wheaton as well?
Yes. I am just relaying discussions about this from earlier in the year and what the norm is for the system. But Wash. U is 2nd in the region and NP and Wheaton are 3 and 4 so I am not sure what you're talking about......
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 27, 2015, 02:38:03 PM
Quote from: Scoring Machine on October 27, 2015, 01:59:34 PM
But how could you explain Wash U being ranked #11, despite being ranked 4th in the Central region, with North Park and Wheaton(Ill) ranked much further down, yet they are ranked 3rd and 2nd? Shouldn't their regional ranking be higher if they are also being ranked higher, and with a victory against Wheaton as well?
Yes. I am just relaying discussions about this from earlier in the year and what the norm is for the system. But Wash. U is 2nd in the region and NP and Wheaton are 3 and 4 so I am not sure what you're talking about......
http://www.ncaa.com/rankings/soccer-men/d3/regional-rankings This is where I saw that rankings so I apologize if I am incorrect about that
Quote from: Brother Flounder on October 27, 2015, 11:54:53 AM
Tufts nor Middlebury receiving a vote, especially given Tufts SOS... Hmmm.
Can understand Midd not in RV, although I'd have them there, but Tufts not being there or in top 25 is a bit odd especially considering its SOS and 3-2-1 record v. ranked. Perhaps the Bates draw hurt them? IMHO Tufts is a better team than MIT, but such is life!
Rank School
1 Amherst College---------------------------------#1 New England
2 Calvin College---------------------------- -------#1 Central
3 Franklin & Marshall College-----------------------#1 Mid-Atlantic
4 Thomas More College----------------------------#1 Great Lakes
5 University of Wisconsin-Whitewater--------------#1 North
6 Montclair State University-------------------------#1 South Atlantic
7 Trinity University (Texas)--------------------------#1 West
8 Kenyon College-----------------------------------#2 Great Lakes
9. Whitworth University------------------------------#2 West
10 Stevens Institute Of Technology----------------#1 East
11 Washington University (Mo.)--------------------#2 Central
12 Brandeis University-------------------------------#2 New England
13 Elizabethtown College----------------------------#2 Mid-Atlantic
14 Stockton University-------------------------------#2 South Atlantic
15 Hobart College-----------------------------------#2 East
16 Colorado College----------------------------------#3 West
17 Macalester College--------------------------------#2 North
18 Haverford College--------------------------------#3 Mid-Atlantic
19 Massachusetts Insititute Of Technology---------#3 New England
20 Loras College-------------------------------------#3 North
21 North Park University---------------------------#3 Central
22 Ohio Wesleyan University-----------------------#3 Great Lakes
23 SUNY Oneonta----------------------------------#3 East
24 Salisbury University------------------------------#3 South Atlantic
25 Wheaton College (Ill.)---------------------------#4 Central
Also receiving votes:
Lycoming College (12)----#4 Mid-Atlantic
Case Western Reserve University (8)----#4 Great Lakes
Carthage College (5)----#5 Central
University Of Chicago (4)----#6 Central
University Of Wisconsin-Oshkosh (1)----IND
St. Lawrence University (1)----#4 East
College Of St. Scholastica (1)----#4 North
Quote from: Scoring Machine on October 27, 2015, 02:47:51 PM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 27, 2015, 02:38:03 PM
Quote from: Scoring Machine on October 27, 2015, 01:59:34 PM
But how could you explain Wash U being ranked #11, despite being ranked 4th in the Central region, with North Park and Wheaton(Ill) ranked much further down, yet they are ranked 3rd and 2nd? Shouldn't their regional ranking be higher if they are also being ranked higher, and with a victory against Wheaton as well?
Yes. I am just relaying discussions about this from earlier in the year and what the norm is for the system. But Wash. U is 2nd in the region and NP and Wheaton are 3 and 4 so I am not sure what you're talking about......
http://www.ncaa.com/rankings/soccer-men/d3/regional-rankings This is where I saw that rankings so I apologize if I am incorrect about that
No problem I just posted a break down by region for the national poll. The NCAA Regional Rankings are really the ones to keep an eye on but the other rankings are good to look at and compare as well. But in terms of teams make the NCAA Tournament by an at-large bid, the NCAA rankings tomorrow hold all the value.
Quote from: Scoring Machine on October 27, 2015, 02:47:51 PM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 27, 2015, 02:38:03 PM
Quote from: Scoring Machine on October 27, 2015, 01:59:34 PM
But how could you explain Wash U being ranked #11, despite being ranked 4th in the Central region, with North Park and Wheaton(Ill) ranked much further down, yet they are ranked 3rd and 2nd? Shouldn't their regional ranking be higher if they are also being ranked higher, and with a victory against Wheaton as well?
Yes. I am just relaying discussions about this from earlier in the year and what the norm is for the system. But Wash. U is 2nd in the region and NP and Wheaton are 3 and 4 so I am not sure what you're talking about......
http://www.ncaa.com/rankings/soccer-men/d3/regional-rankings This is where I saw that rankings so I apologize if I am incorrect about that
Scoring Machine, you are getting the different polls/rankings mixed up, I believe. You referenced the
NCAA regional rankings, not the
NSCAA regional rankings. The N
SCAA regional polls drive their national poll, and have historically had the regional #1's placed in spots 1 thru 8 of their national poll, the regional #2's in spots 9 thru 16 nationally, and the #3's in spots 17 thru 24 and one lucky regional #4 at #25. In terms of the ordering of teams, last year had some occassional exceptions to this longstanding national ranking framework, and this year we have seen even more exceptions. However, what we have only seen once so far is a region having less than 2 teams ranked nationally while a second region gets a fourth team ranked. It happened in the September 22 poll. Otherwise there's still regional balance in the number of teams getting ranked nationally, but there are signs that the NSCAA heading in the right direction, albeit very slowly.
BUT, that has nothing to do with the NCAA regional rankings, the second of which come out tomorrow.
FWIW, Kenyon WOMEN's home game with OWU for tomorrow has been moved to Mt Vernon HS turf field because of expected 2 inches of rain.
Endicott gets a great goal -- tough, contested header off a nice cross -- at 6:04 in the 2nd half to edge Gordon 1-0. Excellent college soccer game. Big win for the Endicott program. Can they do it twice, and will they need to?
Macalester just went up 2-1 on the Johnnies on a rip on the ground from long range. Gotta love the orange and blue Mac kits.
Loras up on Dubuque 2-1 early in the 2nd.
Macalester wins it, remains unbeaten, takes MIAC regular season crown.
Polls are up.
http://www.d3soccer.com/rankings/2015/men/regional-rankings-2
Please tell me Emory and Henry is supposed to be Emory...
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 28, 2015, 01:33:02 PM
http://www.d3soccer.com/rankings/2015/men/regional-rankings-2
Good to see Endicott in there, even with their less-than-impressive SOS they're still the best team in the CCC IMHO. Wonder if - had the game been in time for this week's RRs (aka Sunday or before) - beating Gordon would have been enough to flip-flop the two.
My only initial question was why Hobart - my darkhorse team this year - wasn't ranked, but one look at the SOS and I can see why. But if Hobart manages to get the No. 1 seed and home-field advantage for the LL playoffs - and that's a big if, as Hobart closes the regular season playing home vs. RIT while St. Lawrence is on the road at Clarkson - then I would consider them to be very dangerous. Even without that, given their wins over SLU and Rochester and 12-2-2 record, I still think they're dangerous.
Hobart is an extremely dangerous team.
I have doubts about the phantom penalty called for their winning goal against St. Lawrence, but they deserved that win by the overall way they played.
I think that SLU will love a rematch at home with the Statesmen.
Quote from: Saint of Old on October 28, 2015, 02:00:41 PM
I think that SLU will love a rematch at home with the Statesmen.
I agree. That's why I think - for Hobart to have any shot - they have to get home advantage, because as many have said, beating SLU at MacAllaster is a near-impossible task.
Interesting.
Calvin beat a couple of mediocre MIAA teams 5-0 and 4-0 and as a result dropped from #1 to #3 in the regional ranking, because their SOS dropped.
I'm not convinced that beating mediocre teams 5-0 and 4-0 is evidence that you're getting worse...
Quote from: Dark Knight on October 28, 2015, 03:35:43 PM
I'm not convinced that beating mediocre teams 5-0 and 4-0 is evidence that you're getting worse...
That's true, and raises a good point. Sometimes I think that SOS is perhaps too much accounted for, like in this case, but in other cases (*cough NSCAA National Rankings and even All-American choices cough*) it is perhaps undervalued. The big thing is that you can only beat what's put in front of you, so beating weak teams is important, but when you don't go and schedule tough games then, all other things equal, it's tough to take you as seriously. A conundrum indeed.
Quote from: Dark Knight on October 28, 2015, 03:35:43 PM
Interesting.
Calvin beat a couple of mediocre MIAA teams 5-0 and 4-0 and as a result dropped from #1 to #3 in the regional ranking, because their SOS dropped.
I'm not convinced that beating mediocre teams 5-0 and 4-0 is evidence that you're getting worse...
Calvin;s whole schedule is MEDICORE...I'm not convinced they deserve the #3 ranking..
Ramapo beats Kean?
Congrats to W&L. Good win for Calvin as I thought KZoo would pull the upset. Could not believe MIT came back from 3-1. I'm gonna guess they don't win the NEWMAC tourney but get bid and whoever wins the tourney between Babson, Wheaton or WPI (Springfield?) will be a tough 1st round game for somebody. F&M and Montclair really laid the wood to Gettysburg and RUN. Big win for Greensboro.
Platteville with tonights shocker as they defeat Whitewater 3-2 in overtime.
http://www.cacsports.com/sports/msoc/2015-16/releases/FSU_forfeits
Frostburg State has had to forfeit three conference games due to a rules infraction (player receiving 2nd red card of season only sat out 1 game instead of 2 games as required starting last year) and had their conference record drop from 4-2-2 to 2-5-1 before tonight's final conference games. They won tonight, but the forfeits had dropped them from fourth and comfortable for making the playoffs to eighth and tonight's win only lifted them into a tie for seventh and out of the playoffs. What's seems a little odd is that the article on the conference website said that Frostburg State's overall NCAA record remains unaffected, but I guess that's so that other team's OWP and OOWP numbers (and thus SOS) are not negatively impacted by the forfeits.
http://www.mascac.com/sports/msoc/2015-16/releases/Updated_Standings
Bridgewater St. has also had to vacate (I guess that's the technical term) four conference (MASCAC) games and four non-conference games. Unlike Frostburg St., they probably make the playoffs as the sixth (and last) seed. The rule infraction seems to have to do with a player participating in outside competition during the season. Again, their overall record is not adjusted, just the seeding for conference playoffs.
With conference playoffs and last regular season games approaching this weekend what are the key match-ups?
Quote from: backyarddawg on October 30, 2015, 09:20:59 AM
With conference playoffs and last regular season games approaching this weekend what are the key match-ups?
East-centric offerings:
The four teams in first round of SUNYAC (Buff St @Cortland and Potsdam @Plattsburgh) all have NCAA aspirations, but likely the only way the aspiration becomes real is to win this first round game, then a second round game (on 11/4) v. either Brockport (ouch) or Oneonta.
Only three of these four teams in Liberty league (RIT@Hobart and Skidmore@Union) will be in the playoffs with St. Lawrence. Order of seeding (and first round home field advantage) are at stake.
In Empire 8 the final weekend's league games settle first round playoff opponents, though the real fireworks will be the conference final next weekend.
A few odds and ends....
Very nice touch by RH with the "Open Letter." This is a special time of the year for those closing out their careers and especially the seniors will never get this time back. You can't be promised how it's going to end, and only one team is going to experience ultimate glory and the perfect storybook ending, and no one can over-emphasize the importance of embracing the ride wherever it goes and however it ends with teammates, parents, coaches, etc. I know first hand that the experience can be just as exhilarating for parents and even harder for some of us to deal with the end (because the end signals a real end for us as well). I'd also throw out there for players and parents to embrace all of the moments each year that you can. There is no way to know in advance if the best (and/or most emotional) experiences will happen freshman, soph, junior, or senior year, and maybe the best ride is actually as a sub as a frosh on a team that makes a deep run, or as a junior on a team that doesn't even make the tournament but had a collection of guys that truly clicked and loved another. As a related point, make the most of your opportunities when you have them as the best opportunity isn't always the year most thought it might be.
As I think more about the SoS issue and look more closely at more teams, I'd suggest there are at least 4 categories -- the legit high SoS's, the fortunately high SoS's, the unfortunately low SoS's, and the legit low SoS's. My semantics might be off a bit but you get the point, and I write this understanding that for the most part these are not the kind of distinctions the cmtes make.
Let's consider these teams and their out-of-conference schedules.......
Rochester -- .620 -- @Geneseo, Rutgers-Newark, Morrisville St, @Hobart, @Buffalo St, @RIT (really a neutral/home game), St John Fisher, Lycoming, Moravian
Middlebury -- .579 -- @Norwich, @Green Mtn, Colby-Sawyer, Castleton, Plymouth St
Case Western -- .503 -- @Mt Union, Pitt-Greensburg, Thomas More, @Baldwin-Wallace, @Capital, John Carroll, Ohio Northern, @Wooster, @Wilmington, @Kenyon, Oberlin, Waynesburg
Rochester's high SoS (like Brandeis) looks very well earned. Not necessarily any teams that would be considered top 10 teams, but with the SUNYAC schools, Lycoming, Hobart, Rutgers-Newark, and frequent NCAA team Morrisville St, I would consider this to be a very tough and credible schedule, while keeping in mind that UAA schools have more out-of-conference games since there are only 7 conference tilts
Midd is one that I think surprised many of us (and we actually thought they might pay for a weak schedule) and for me is an example of an inflated SoS that is deceiving. And imagine how high their SoS might be if you take out 1-16 Green Mountain. There's not one team on their entire out-of-conference schedule that I would consider a high quality opponent, BUT, they did turn out to be teams with very decent to good records in very weak conferences. Planning, gaming the system, or just some good luck?
Case has what I would term a schedule that was better than average (albeit not great) and which yielded an unfortunately low SoS. We've noted elsewhere that they are going to get a bump from their last 3 UAA games, but I'm focusing here on just the out-of-conference schedules (and with the view that the UAA and NESCAC are similarly challenging with the difference being the number of teams). They had really soft games like Pitt-Greensburg and Waynesburg, soft games with Baldwin-Wallace, Wooster and Wilmington, and then good to very good games with Capital, John Carroll, Ohio Northern, Thomas More and Kenyon. For me, that's a slightly to moderately above average schedule and if they end up around .540 maybe that will be almost right, especially taking into account that they got ZERO from a scheduled away Kenyon game.
So what's the point? I don't think Case has any argument on the single criterion of SoS with Rochester, but I would contend that the difference between Midd and Case is very artificial and on balance I think the Case schedule is better/tougher than Midd's. I have no idea how they would do this, but I think the cmtes would be better armed if they had a method or calculation they could use in cases where differences, especially big differences, seem out of whack.
I'll offer some thoughts on this weekend's slate in a separate post.
NCAC NE: Does the committee take into consideration games that have been cancelled? In Case and Kenyon's case that game would have elevated both teams SOS for the good...do they consider this when selecting teams with an SOS that might not be as high as it would have been had they played? I know in the Mid-Atlantic forum there has been dicussion about the Oneonta vs Lycoming game being cancelled and how not playing the game might hurt Lycoming. Knowing this I am sure they wanted to play the game but with no time to make the game up there is no chance for a reschedule. So how does the committee view these circumstances when they come about?
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on October 30, 2015, 02:07:00 PM
NCAC NE: Does the committee take into consideration games that have been cancelled? In Case and Kenyon's case that game would have elevated both teams SOS for the good...do they consider this when selecting teams with an SOS that might not be as high as it would have been had they played? I know in the Mid-Atlantic forum there has been dicussion about the Oneonta vs Lycoming game being cancelled and how not playing the game might hurt Lycoming. Knowing this I am sure they wanted to play the game but with no time to make the game up there is no chance for a reschedule. So how does the committee view these circumstances when they come about?
I think the short answer is NO, although I clearly am not an expert. As some have noted (including myself) I think there also is a view that there was plenty of time to re-schedule with knowledge that they both could need the game. Now, in a virtual tie would a cmte consider that game not being played as a mitigating factor? I don't know.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 30, 2015, 02:16:14 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on October 30, 2015, 02:07:00 PM
NCAC NE: Does the committee take into consideration games that have been cancelled? In Case and Kenyon's case that game would have elevated both teams SOS for the good...do they consider this when selecting teams with an SOS that might not be as high as it would have been had they played? I know in the Mid-Atlantic forum there has been dicussion about the Oneonta vs Lycoming game being cancelled and how not playing the game might hurt Lycoming. Knowing this I am sure they wanted to play the game but with no time to make the game up there is no chance for a reschedule. So how does the committee view these circumstances when they come about?
I think the short answer is NO, although I clearly am not an expert. As some have noted (including myself) I think there also is a view that there was plenty of time to re-schedule with knowledge that they both could need the game. Now, in a virtual tie would a cmte consider that game not being played as a mitigating factor? I don't know.
Right Kenyon vs Case was early in the season but games from this past week there really is no time to reschedule so that's what I was curious about. Thanks for your thoughts.
NCAC's Cloudy Crystal Ball
If you're pulling for your team to get a Pool C (if they don't or can't get an AQ), you want these teams to get their own AQs, and if too many of these teams do not get their AQs your team may fall to the wrong side of the bubble or fall off entirely.
Absolute locks even if don't win AQs
Amherst
F&M
Calvin
Trinity (TX)
Montclair St
Oneonta St
Thomas More
Brandeis (unless 0-3 for next 3)
Very likely to likely without AQ
Haverford
Wheaton (Ill) (loss to North Park and also conf semi might be a problem)
Wash U (unless go 0-3 or 0-2-1 last 3)
Loras (do Duhawks need 1 more game?)
Macalester
Lycoming
Elizabethtown
Stockton
MIT
ECSU
SLU (need beat Clarkson and conf semi?)
Redlands (need conf final?)
Colorado College (need to win tomorrow and conf semi?)
Kenyon/OWU (there are probably scenarios where one doesn't get in but unlikely)
Middlebury/Tufts (same as above)
UW-W (if not Pool B)
Probables to Bubbles to Wrong side of Bubble (could fluctuate significantly over next 2 weekends)
Kenyon/OWU
Midd/Tufts
Brockport St
Dickinson (need 1 more game? or 2?)
Rowan
UMass-Boston
Endicott
UW-O???
St Johns???
DePauw (probable but probably scenarios where gets squeezed out)
CMU or Case (but probably not both)
Denison (need couple of wins IMO but could be wrong given regional rank)
Rose-Hulman (you definitely want them to win AQ)
Texas-Dallas (definitely want them to win AQ to ensure another bid not taken)
Hobart
Stevens
Plattsburgh
Chicago
Gordon
W&L
Messiah
North Park (I always almost forget North Park)
Pac Lutheran
Ohio Northern
Any glaring errors or omissions? I realize the above is way too many teams, but one has to assume if favorites don't get the AQ that one of the other listed teams does get it. Hopefuls definitely should pull for ECSU, Rose-Hulman, Thomas More, Wheaton (Ill), Calvin, Oneonta, etc winning AQs.
Re-post from UAA thread...
Case loses to Chicago on PK in 1st OT. Ref initially waved off the play and then changed his mind and awarded PK. Case furious but looked like a legit PK foul and foul occurred on exact same kind of play in same spot as PK given up in OT last year to Brandeis. Now Case really is in deep, deep trouble.
Brandeis with yet another 1-0 win over Emory. Wash U up 1-0 on CMU early in 2nd. Trinity was up 2-0 on Santa Cruz but tied 2-2 at half.
When will Frostburg St be eligible for CAC Postseason?
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 30, 2015, 11:31:18 PM
When will Frostburg St be eligible for CAC Postseason?
They remained eligible for the playoffs this year, but the vacated games dropped them out of the playoff spots.
NCACNE,
Think you left DePauw out...10-2-4 with a 2-2-3 record vs Regionally Ranked. I'd put them in same category as Kenyon/OWU. Thoughts?
Soccer is definitely 1 sport you can't do transitive property in....DePauw beats Kenyon who beats OWU who beats DePauw....ALL away from home.
Quote from: Midwest Soccer on October 31, 2015, 10:19:18 AM
NCACNE,
Think you left DePauw out...10-2-4 with a 2-2-3 record vs Regionally Ranked. I'd put them in same category as Kenyon/OWU. Thoughts?
Soccer is definitely 1 sport you can't do transitive property in....DePauw beats Kenyon who beats OWU who beats DePauw....ALL away from home.
No, I had them in my "probable" category. DePauw I think is very likely to get a bid unless things get wacky with TMC losing an AQ or something, and now CMU is very much back in the mix. Assuming NCAC games today hold form, it's possible DePauw @ OWU for a NCAC semi could have a bid on the line.
Much of the attention today will be on the high-stakes NESCAC quarters, the NJAC and SUNYAC tournament games, and maybe the CAC opening round slate with Christopher Newport at risk with a road game straight away, but here are some other games and under-the-radar conference races to keep an eye on.
Oberlin plays at Denison at 1:00 to decide the 4th NCAC playoff spot. Two pretty even teams who probably don't like each other much with potential for a lot of chippiness. Oberlin has been in good form while Denison has struggled of late, but Denison has home field and still is very much alive for a Pool C with a solid regional ranking.
Much later tonight Wheaton (Ill) travels to North Park in a game that doesn't mean as much as we might have projected. Wheaton (I think) has home field sewn up, but a North Park win and a Carthage win could give Carthage a share of 1st place in the CCIW.
Morrisville travels to Keuka to decide first place who will have home field advantage for the NEAC tourney.
Dickinson @ F&M should be a good one at 6:00 pm.
RIT @ Hobart and Skidmore @ Union should be good ones in the Liberty.
St. Olaf @ St Johns is key for MIAC tourney positioning.
Elizabethtown looks to stay perfect against visiting and second place Scranton in the Landmark.
Roanoke @ W&L should be a good one, with little at stake for the ODAC playoffs but W&L perhaps trying to bolster a case for a regional ranking as winning the AQ will require running a real gauntlet.
WPI @ MIT is a good one, and we'll see if MIT can go unblemished in the NEWMAC. Springfield, Babson, and WPI all appear to be jockeying for the final 3 playoff spots as Wheaton (MA) has the inside track for the #2 seed.
Texas-Tyler and Concordia (TX) have a big game as they look to challenge Texas-Dallas in the ASC. Concordia's game with Univ of the Ozarks (sitting in 4th in the ASC) was cancelled last night due to weather so will be interesting to see what happens with that game.
In tournament action today, the SAA has all teams in action with Oglethorpe as the #1 seed and Millsaps at #2. #6 Centre @ #3 Berry (a re-match from last weekend) should be a good one.
The CCC playoffs are setting up to be very competitive, with their quarters beginning today and Endicott, Gordon, WNEC and Wentworth all very closely matched teams hoping to advance.
The USAC is frequently overlooked and their quarters begin today with top seeds Greensboro, Methodist, Maryville (TN), and NC Wesleyan looking to win at home and advance to attractive semifinal battles.
Staten Island and Brooklyn, top teams in the CUNYAC look to advance in their tourney today.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 30, 2015, 01:44:37 PM
As I think more about the SoS issue and look more closely at more teams, I'd suggest there are at least 4 categories -- the legit high SoS's, the fortunately high SoS's, the unfortunately low SoS's, and the legit low SoS's. My semantics might be off a bit but you get the point, and I write this understanding that for the most part these are not the kind of distinctions the cmtes make.
I agree that strength of schedule can be deceptive. A team might play a couple of good teams, many bad teams, and have a poor strength of schedule, or many above-average teams (but no top teams) and have an excellent strength of schedule.
It's still a necessary part of the kind of ranking the NCAA does, but for my money, it's also important to look at how a team does against other top competition. (The NCAA actually does a decent job with this by comparing records against regionally-ranked teams, though it's only a secondary criterion, if I understand correctly.)
But for my money, the biggest flaw in the regional ranking system is that it's based on won-lost record, not margin of victory. A 5-0 victory is different from a 1-0 victory. They should be looking at goal differentials, not just won-lost records. I realize that there are problems with MoV, but the data shows that taking it into account gives better predictions of future games.
But then I'm never really sure whether the regional ranking system and other polls are supposed to compare how well teams have done so far or predict how they will do in the future. Different goals can lead to different results. (If a team's best player is injured, should they drop in the poll?)
If what you really want to do is predict outcome of future games, you'd want to use a system like Massey ratings that estimates the power of teams statistically based on game outcomes (including margin of victory).
In fact, if you really want to predict the outcome of future games as accurately as possible, you'd gather all the data you can (goals, shots, corner kicks, time of possession) and use statistical techniques to predict the outcome of future games.
Dark Knight, I have to disagree on margin of victory. How would it be fair to compare UAA teams with usual 0-0 and 1-0 games that are highly competitive with a Calvin who steamrolls far weaker competition 4-0 and 5-0? And I think many of us agree that the RvR should be on a "once-ranked, always ranked" basis.
In regards to Wheaton (IL), if North park beats Wheaton and Carthage beats Elmhurst. Carthage would win the title outright.
Quote from: SuperSub15 on October 31, 2015, 11:49:27 AM
In regards to Wheaton (IL), if North park beats Wheaton and Carthage beats Elmhurst. Carthage would win the title outright.
Good catch. I thought they would have same record and that Wheaton won head-to-head. So Carthage would win by a point. Wheaton needs a draw at a minimum, right?
Calvin has has the easiest/quietest run for a 36 game unbeaten streak... Look at Amherst, Camden, Messiah from 2012-13. Totally different level of competition, but you still have to appreciate just how hard it is to string that kind of impressive streak together.
Calvin will reach the sweet 16, but lose to Thomas More or an NCAC school. I'm hoping they get some tough draws and prove their worth with quality results...
Yes A Wheaton draw and Carthage Win would result in a share of the title. If North Park loses and Carthage loses North Park could be on the outside looking in depending on the North Central result.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 31, 2015, 11:40:23 AM
Dark Knight, I have to disagree on margin of victory. How would it be fair to compare UAA teams with usual 0-0 and 1-0 games that are highly competitive with a Calvin who steamrolls far weaker competition 4-0 and 5-0? And I think many of us agree that the RvR should be on a "once-ranked, always ranked" basis.
Calvin hasn't played a strong schedule this year. They have only 5 games outside of conference, and only two or three of them were scheduled against pretty good teams, only one regionally ranked. So it's pretty tough to compare them against teams that have beaten several strong opponents.
Still, if you have to make a comparison, you have more information if you know the margin of victory. For example,
Brandeis 1-0 vs Chicago -- a pretty strong result. Chicago has Massey power 1.77, for a game score of 2.77.
Brandeis 1-0 vs. Lasell -- weak result. Lasell has power -2.21, weaker than any team on Calvin's schedule.
Calvin 4-0 vs. Olivet -- strong result. Olivet has power -0.93. With a victory by 4, that's a total of 3.07
Calvin 5-0 vs. Adrian -- Adrian, the weakest team on Calvin's schedule, has power -1.75. With a +5 result, that's 3.25. Strong result.
Now these numbers are far from the best way to compare teams; it could be that when Calvin hits top defenses they'll have a hard time scoring. But those kinds of comparisons are much more informative than
Brandeis, 2-0 vs. Chicago and Lasell
Calvin, 2-0 vs. Adrian and Olivet
Quote from: Dark Knight on October 31, 2015, 11:25:08 AM(The NCAA actually does a decent job with this by comparing records against regionally-ranked teams, though it's only a secondary criterion, if I understand correctly.)
No, results against ranked opponents is one of the
primary criteria and always has been. That's why it's mentioned and discussed so much on here.
Every year the criteria is mentioned numerous times on D3soccer.com in articles and pages about the regional rankings, at-large selections, and NCAA tournament.
From page 21 of the 2015 Pre-Championships Manual (http://www.d3soccer.com/ncaa-publications/2015/2015-NCAA-Division-III-Soccer_Pre-Championships-Manual.pdf):
Primary Criteria (not listed in priority order)
● Win-loss percentage against Division III opponents
● Division III head-to-head competition
● Results versus common Division III opponents
● Results versus ranked Division III teams at the time of selection
● Division III strength of schedule
Secondary Criteria (not listed in priority order)
● Non-Division III win-loss percentage
● Results versus common non-Division III opponents
● Non-Division III strength-of-schedule
The Wheaton/North Park match is at Wheaton tonight, not North Park as mentioned earlier. Additionally, on the chance that Wheaton and Carthage ended in a points tie, Wheaton is the #1 seed for the CCIW Tournament and would host. Finally, at this point, Wheaton is the only team that has qualified for the tournament.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 31, 2015, 12:16:47 PM
Calvin will reach the sweet 16, but lose to Thomas More or an NCAC school. I'm hoping they get some tough draws and prove their worth with quality results...
Your NCAC prediction has history behind it and seems pretty likely. Calvin got knocked out of the tournament by OWU last year in a 1-1 draw, losing the shootout. In 2013 and 2011, Calvin lost to OWU. In 2012, Calvin lost to DePauw. You have to go back to 2005 for a Calvin victory over OWU in the tournament.
In fact, if you do the kind of comparison of result + opponent strength I suggested above for the last 8 games, OWU is averaging 4.2, which is extremely good. It's better than Amherst, averaging 3.9, and Calvin, averaging 3.6. I haven't checked, but I'm guessing those are near top results nationally.
Just noticed Texas-Dallas got crushed by Belhaven 3-0. I'm sure this was covered somewhere but I see Belhaven isn't credited with any wins in the ASC. They have 13 or 14 wins on the season. Are they ineligible for the post-season? And if so, does the loss still count for Texas-Dallas in terms of bid deliberations?
Looks like 8th seed Sewanee knocked off #1 SAA seed Oglethorpe in PKs.
Centre advanced over Berry on PKs.
Pac Lutheran won today, and now 14-4 and 10-2.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 31, 2015, 07:09:29 PM
Just noticed Texas-Dallas got crushed by Belhaven 3-0. I'm sure this was covered somewhere but I see Belhaven isn't credited with any wins in the ASC. They have 13 or 14 wins on the season. Are they ineligible for the post-season? And if so, does the loss still count for Texas-Dallas in terms of bid deliberations?
Belhaven, formerly NAIA (national champs in 2012) is a D-III provisional member (first year of four years) and not eligible for either the ASC tournament or the NCAA tournament. However, they and McMurry (re-classifying back to D-III) are playing full ASC schedules, but their games do not count in the standings for them or the other teams.
From this point on the records up to this point aren't what matter. What really matters are what teams really want to win and bring it in the conference tournament up to the NCAA tournament. I believe there will be some upsets this year along with some of the expected teams to win. Even if the highest seeded team is better statistically and skillfully, there have been plenty of games both collegiate and professional where one goal can win a game. Even if the better team dominated their opponent, if the opponent scores it's a whole different game. There will be a few teams who haven't got much spotlight like the typical schools do and they will turn heads in the NCAA tournament.
Wheaton looking impressive against North Park. Now up 3-1.
4-1.
Anybody know who would own the tiebreaker for Elmhurst or North Park for 4th CCIW spot? Elmhurst and Carthage just went OT, and draw would leave them level with North Park.
Doesn't matter, Elmhurst wins in OT. Wheaton plays Elmhurst and Carthage plays North Central.
If they were tied, I believe it would have been North Park on conference goal differential.
Correction. Whraton plays North Central. Carthage plays Elmhurst.
;) \\SSub sorry, thanks for correction. Thats what i get for doing math in my head!
Quote from: Dark Knight on October 31, 2015, 05:12:53 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 31, 2015, 12:16:47 PM
Calvin will reach the sweet 16, but lose to Thomas More or an NCAC school. I'm hoping they get some tough draws and prove their worth with quality results...
Your NCAC prediction has history behind it and seems pretty likely. Calvin got knocked out of the tournament by OWU last year in a 1-1 draw, losing the shootout. In 2013 and 2011, Calvin lost to OWU. In 2012, Calvin lost to DePauw. You have to go back to 2005 for a Calvin victory over OWU in the tournament.
In fact, if you do the kind of comparison of result + opponent strength I suggested above for the last 8 games, OWU is averaging 4.2, which is extremely good. It's better than Amherst, averaging 3.9, and Calvin, averaging 3.6. I haven't checked, but I'm guessing those are near top results nationally.
When they've made their tourney runs over the years they've not had to go through the NCAC teams.
It's been a while since I was on here - probably close to conversion when the old d3soccer boards shut down.
NCAC's News and Notes
Some stunning results from yesterday. Amherst, just about anointed as invincible, loses in NESCAC quarters to a team that wouldn't have even been there if Bates could score a single goal in 110 minutes. Think about that. Defending national champ Tufts loses again in the quarters, and if this was last year, without a regular season NESCAC title under their belts, we might not be talking Tufts as even in the discussion for a bid, so to that extent I think Tufts is benefiting from "being Tufts." If you question that remember Tufts likely got one of the last spots in the tournament last year and certainly the last spot for the New England region. Christopher Newport is gone. Oglethorpe's excellent season as SAA regular season champs is over after dominating Sewanee for 110 minutes and losing a shootout. RPI (actually were already done) and Denison, two of the early through mid-season darlings, done. Not a huge surprise, but Dickinson upsets F&M on a very late goal, and the Red Devils after being counted out earlier are yet again very much in the mix and favored for a Pool C if needed. ECSU and UMass-Boston, after hardly losing at all this season both lose on the same day to LEC foes. Rutgers-Camden was left for dead, but aren't we now basically expecting them to hoist the NJAC tourney trophy/AQ? I thought North Park was eliminated but they'll get another shot as a #4 CCIW seed to knock off Wheaton (Ill) and have a chance for an AQ, but I can't imagine they are still alive for a Pool C. Same situation for KZoo who should get another shot at Calvin and the MIAA AQ.
Congratulations to several teams who went through their conferences unbeaten. We already know about Amherst, despite yesterday's early tourney exit. Who would have predicted Haverford going through the Centennial at 9-0? Macalester has been very impressive, and is only one of two remaining unbeatens nationally. The MIAC might be down this year, but getting through all of those teams, including schools that are traditional regional powerhouses, with an 8-0-2 record is outstanding. Same for Washington & Lee, Elizabethtown, Lycoming, MIT, Endicott, Salisbury, Rose-Hulman and Hanover, Greensboro (and Methodist), and Texas-Tyler . Others like Calvin, Thomas More, Loras and St Scholastica went unblemished in conference, and while those were not really unexpected we know that actually winning all the games is not easy. Hats off to Bridgewater State for running through the MASCAC unblemished, as well Daniel Webster in the NECC and Westminster (MO) in the SLIAC.
If your favorite team needs a Pool C and is on the bubble (or could be on the bubble if too many other strong Pool C candidates don't snag their AQs), you'll want to pay attention to the following. You don't want Oberlin to win the NCAC AQ (and they could, as I've been saying they are a dangerous team for a few weeks, although they will have to beat two heavyweights on the road). You DO want the following teams to get their AQ....Wheaton (Ill), Loras, Trinity (TX) or at least Colorado College, Montclair or maybe Stockton or Rowan but not Rutgers-Camden, Thomas More, Macalester, MIT, Calvin, Middlebury, Elizabethtown, and Redlands. You won't expect it but you'll be happily surprised if Lycoming wins. You'll feel even safer if Stevens, Salisbury, Rose-Hulman, Oneonta, Ohio Northern, W&L, Texas-Dallas, Concordia (WI), ECSU, and Endicott prevail. You may want to keep half an eye on Pacific Lutheran in this week's regional rankings, as all of the sudden the West looks to have more than the usual low number of Pool C contenders. Also keep an eye on what happens with the UWs. I assume Whitewater has a lock on a Pool B, but they would be a strong Pool C candidate. Seems like Oshkosh likely has played themselves out of the Pool C picture. And you'll watch the UAA closely today and next Saturday to see which regions may be most impacted. On Wednesday you'll want to see where lower and/or so far unranked and perhaps under-appreciated teams are slotted (or not), like Ohio Northern, W&L, Endicott, MIT, Pac Lutheran, Texas-Dallas, Concordia (WI), and St Johns.
Lastly, one final plug for the ODAC, USAC, and SAA playoffs. These are all pretty good to good teams and all of the tourneys feature very closely matched teams.
NCAC great post however North Park is not in their conference tournament.
Quote from: SuperSub15 on November 01, 2015, 10:03:42 AM
NCAC great post however North Park is not in their conference tournament.
That's what I thought, because I think I heard the Wheaton announcers suggest that. But this site has them in at #4, and I looked at conference standings and they are 4th. What am I missing, and the site missing? Is there an error in how the records are being reported.
One of North Central's results got input wrong. The women's result against Augustana (L1-2) was input as the men's result instead of the actual result, a 1-0 win. I have corrected it and the standings should reflect it momentarily. That correction pushes North Central above North Park.
One thing we are unable to do is tie-breakers, so if there's a tie for the final playoff spots, sometimes the wrong team will be listed higher in the standings.
Quote from: Christan Shirk on November 01, 2015, 11:43:43 AM
One of North Central's results got input wrong. The women's result against Augustana (L1-2) was input as the men's result instead of the actual result, a 1-0 win. I have corrected it and the standings should reflect it momentarily. That correction pushes North Central above North Park.
One thing we are unable to do is tie-breakers, so if there's a tie for the final playoff spots, sometimes the wrong team will be listed higher in the standings.
Thanks, and very surprising for North Park to fall to 5th.
Can somebody give us a read on how they see the NJAC and SUNYAC playing out? Is the NJAC likely to get 2 Pool Cs, and would they get 3 if Camden gets the AQ? And is Plattsburgh a definite Pool C? Does Brockport have to beat Cortland? And if Cortland got the AQ would Oneonta be the only SUNYAC Pool C, or could they get 3?
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 01, 2015, 12:12:04 PM
Can somebody give us a read on how they see the NJAC and SUNYAC playing out? Is the NJAC likely to get 2 Pool Cs, and would they get 3 if Camden gets the AQ? And is Plattsburgh a definite Pool C? Does Brockport have to beat Cortland? And if Cortland got the AQ would Oneonta be the only SUNYAC Pool C, or could they get 3?
The four SUNYAC teams with a regional ranking are playing in the conference's semi-fianls this week. Haven't done the math, but eyeball (<sic>) suggests that all four will be ranked this week, and that all four with see their SOS go up. Of the other teams ranked this past week, Steven's and St. Lawrence's SOS will go down a wee bit, but not enough to worry. RPI had a win, so even though their season is over, they should remain ranked. Hobart -- which seems to be the first out -- will stay unranked even with two wins this past week - and may see its SOS go down given the poor record of one of their opponents from this week.
So, heading into final week I'm thinking all four SUNYAC semi-finalists will be sitting pretty for NCAAs (one AQ and perhaps three pool C). Cortland has the most to gain from a semi-win (as they have weakest RvR and lowest SOS of the four). With the expectation that St. Lawrence and Stevens earn AQ bids, and the four SUNYAC schools divide the AQ and three pool C invites. Hobart is on the bubble, but will help their case for a pool C invite with a semi win. If Stevens does not secure an AQ, they get a pool C and either Cortland, Hobart/RPI does not. Of course, if Hobart is able to secure the LL AQ by first getting to the final and then winning it (and both are stern tests), Cortland is on then on the bubble.
Quote from: Part_Bart on November 01, 2015, 12:41:47 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 01, 2015, 12:12:04 PM
Can somebody give us a read on how they see the NJAC and SUNYAC playing out? Is the NJAC likely to get 2 Pool Cs, and would they get 3 if Camden gets the AQ? And is Plattsburgh a definite Pool C? Does Brockport have to beat Cortland? And if Cortland got the AQ would Oneonta be the only SUNYAC Pool C, or could they get 3?
The four SUNYAC teams with a regional ranking are playing in the conference's semi-fianls this week. Haven't done the math, but eyeball (<sic>) suggests that all four will be ranked this week, and that all four with see their SOS go up. Of the other teams ranked this past week, Steven's and St. Lawrence's SOS will go down a wee bit, but not enough to worry. RPI had a win, so even though their season is over, they should remain ranked. Hobart -- which seems to be the first out -- will stay unranked even with two wins this past week - and may see its SOS go down given the poor record of one of their opponents from this week.
So, heading into final week I'm thinking all four SUNYAC semi-finalists will be sitting pretty for NCAAs (one AQ and perhaps three pool C). Cortland has the most to gain from a semi-win (as they have weakest RvR and lowest SOS of the four). With the expectation that St. Lawrence and Stevens earn AQ bids, and the four SUNYAC schools divide the AQ and three pool C invites. Hobart is on the bubble, but will help their case for a pool C invite with a semi win. If Stevens does not secure an AQ, they get a pool C and either Cortland, Hobart/RPI does not. Of course, if Hobart is able to secure the LL AQ by first getting to the final and then winning it (and both are stern tests), Cortland is on then on the bubble.
I'll give you 2 Pool Cs for the SUNYAC, but not 3. If only 2, who has the edge assuming Oneonta wins AQ?
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 01, 2015, 12:45:23 PM
I'll give you 2 Pool Cs for the SUNYAC, but not 3. If only 2, who has the edge assuming Oneonta wins AQ?
Brockport has edge over Cortland for 2cd Pool C invite (SOS, RvR and head-to-head), especially if they win their semi.
The winner of Brockport St vs Cortland St in addition to Plattsburgh St n Oneonta St
MSU and Stockton will make it. And either Rowan or Camden, but not both.
Centennial gets two pool C, NESCAC could get three pool C with 2 definite.
D3 family trivia...
Graham Koval (soph) scored with 2 seconds left to send Conn College into OT yesterday with Williams, and his brother Brice is a freshmen forward at Kenyon (who has been playing).
Zack Masciopinto (frosh) at CMU scored the winning goal for CMU today at Chicago. His brother Alex (senior) is a defender for Case Western playing right now at Wash U.
Apparently Pac Lutheran thinks Dark Knight's proposal has been implemented. The Lutes are destroying George Fox 7-0 with time left.
NCAC Top 25 (thru 11/1)
1) Calvin (probably not one of my final four picks but 18-0-1 with 70 GF and 4 GA can't be ignored, and this IS a national-level program that was in national title game as recently as 2011)
2) Haverford
3) Amherst
4) Montclair State
5) Brandeis
6) Kenyon
7) Thomas More
8) Oneonta State
9) Trinity (TX)
10) Franklin & Marshall
11) Elizabethtown
12) Middlebury
13) OWU
14) Macalester
15) Lycoming
16) Whitworth
17) Carnegie Mellon
18) Wheaton (Ill)
19) Redlands
20) MIT
21) Loras
22) Colorado College
23) SLU
24) UW-Whitewater
25) Messiah/Hobart/Stockton/Washington & Lee/Endicott/Pacific Lutheran (TIE)
Watch List (= key teams alive based on D3soccer.com forum interest and otherwise still alive and/or with potential to impact Pool Cs/B in conference tourney play, NOT exhaustive, and NO ORDER) -- Brockport St, Plattsburgh St, Cortland State, Rowan, Rutgers-Camden, Dickinson, Johns Hopkins, Skidmore, Tufts, Bowdoin, Conn Coll, Wesleyan, DePauw, Oberlin, Geneva, Grove City, Westminster (PA), Westminster (MO), Kalamazoo, Carthage, Elmhurst, Concordia (WI), Milw Engineering, Dominican, Randolph, Roanoke, Lynchburg, Gordon, WNEC, Wentworth, Stevens, Ohio Northern, Capital, John Carroll, Texas-Tyler, Texas-Dallas, Concordia (TX), King's, Eastern, Rose Hulman, Hanover, Transy, Salisbury, York (PA), Mary Washington, ECSU, UMass-Boston, Wheaton (MA), Babson, Springfield, WPI, St Scholastica, UW-Osh, Wash U, Chicago, Dubuque, Luther, St Johns, Centre, Millsaps, Scranton, Occidental, Chapman/La Verne, Greensboro, Methodist, Maryville (TN), Cabrini, Marywood
Appreciate your weekly top 25, but that will still not save you from losing to me in the bracket challenge...
Extreme sleepers not regionally ranked: Cabrini, Susquehanna (if the beat E-town), W&L
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 01, 2015, 04:49:44 PM
D3 family trivia...
Graham Koval (soph) scored with 2 seconds left to send Conn College into OT yesterday with Williams, and his brother Brice is a freshmen forward at Kenyon (who has been playing).
Zack Masciopinto (frosh) at CMU scored the winning goal for CMU today at Chicago. His brother Alex (senior) is a defender for Case Western playing right now at Wash U.
Staying with the D3 family theme...
Gordon soph Josh Cochran scored with :30 seconds left in regulation to tie their playoff game with Roger Williams 1-1 on Saturday. Gordon went on to win the game in double OT. Josh is brother to Will Cochran starting forward at Messiah.
Hero's Ranking
http://herosports.com/college-rankings/d3-mens-soccer-rankings/
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on November 02, 2015, 01:04:13 AM
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 01, 2015, 04:49:44 PM
D3 family trivia...
Graham Koval (soph) scored with 2 seconds left to send Conn College into OT yesterday with Williams, and his brother Brice is a freshmen forward at Kenyon (who has been playing).
Zack Masciopinto (frosh) at CMU scored the winning goal for CMU today at Chicago. His brother Alex (senior) is a defender for Case Western playing right now at Wash U.
Staying with the D3 family theme...
Gordon soph Josh Cochran scored with :30 seconds left in regulation to tie their playoff game with Roger Williams 1-1 on Saturday. Gordon went on to win the game in double OT. Josh is brother to Will Cochran starting forward at Messiah.
That goal was scored with 30 seconds left...any info on that game? Tough way to end a season for Roger Williams. Still not as bad as the way Williams bowed out against Conn
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 02, 2015, 12:10:21 PM
That goal was scored with 30 seconds left...any info on that game? Tough way to end a season for Roger Williams. Still not as bad as the way Williams bowed out against Conn
Gordon seemed to be pretty dominant, outshooting their opponents 19-9 and 7-4 SOG. However, RWU took the lead about 13 minutes in. The Scots tied it on a scrum in front of the net. I wrote a bit about the team's contrasting fortunes, and also how it was eerily similar (except a different outcome) to the 2013 semi, also played at Gordon, also decided in OT, and also a 2-1 score in the NE Soccer Discussion.
Gordon thoroughly dominated. Just like a week earlier down in Rhode Island. Roger Williams tried to compress the space as much as possible. Conceding Gordon the ball until midfield. But they couldn't hang on quite long enough. Gordon had numerous golden opportunities that were just wide or high. The Roger Williams goal was actually an own goal off a Gordon defender's head.
Quote from: backyarddawg on November 02, 2015, 11:12:24 AM
Hero's Ranking
http://herosports.com/college-rankings/d3-mens-soccer-rankings/
Not sure how much value should be given to these rankings. Brandeis ranked #35 with an SOS of 11? They had the best SOS in the country as of the last regional rankings and should certainly be ranked in the top 20 if not the top 8/10. Also, Rowan at #8? Messiah at #11? Amherst at #12? Williams at #30?
Those rankings are for the most part nonsense and a perfect example of why you don't let algorithms make all the decisions. I suspect they may take margin of victory into account and hence are penalizing Brandeis for all of the 1-goal wins. I can't think of anything else it could be when you look at it ranking teams above Brandeis that have worse records against weaker schedules.
Quote from: backyarddawg on November 02, 2015, 11:12:24 AM
Hero's Ranking
http://herosports.com/college-rankings/d3-mens-soccer-rankings/
This ranking is based on Greg Bennett's statistical analyses.
You can read more about this at http://herosports.com/featured/bennettrank-preseason-rankings-methodology/
I'm generally supportive of such efforts to use the data of competition to assess competition, and it certainly gives one a different view.
Because it factors in strength of schedule differently, provides some historical weighting, and is a cumulative data ranking, some programs rank much differently than in the NCAA and NSCAA rankings. I note that the Bennett people do mid-season 'corrections' or updates to their algorithm, to reflect performances beyond or below their estimations. Its not clear to me how these get calculated. And, in doing these, the Bennett rankers both acknowledge their algorithm's imperfections and work hard to update it for reality. From from interacting with the Bennett people, I've learned that their algorithm works better with 20+ data points (so it is a better estimator at season's end than season's beginning, but still not quite enough data to be fully stable).
All this said, my sense is that the Bennett Ranks are pretty solid reflections of the various teams. Those who follow NESCAC and UAA will like how Bennett rankings reflect the strengths of those leagues and teams relative to so many other D3 leagues. Fans of leagues with weaker teams will find that the Bennett ranking drives down the best teams of that league (the Messiah effect is what Bennett calls this). Its more data for discussion, the teams still have to play to know the outcome....
Yes I cannot wait until Calvin faces a real team.
A couple weeks back Amherst seemed like a near lock for a first round bye. Given the last two games I think they've lost that opportunity. Do you all think any other NE team has a chance at a bye? In my opinion, the only two teams that have a chance would be MIT or Brandeis, assuming they both win out. What other teams (including outside of NE) do you think are deserving of a bye if they were to win out? (Tossing out a few guesses: Calvin, Haverford, Montclair St., Oneonta, Thomas Moore, Trinity)
November 3, 2015
D3soccer.com Men's Top 25, Week 9
Through games of Sunday, November 1, 2015
# School (1st Pl. Votes) Record
1 Kenyon (13) 15-1-0
2 Trinity (Texas) (4) 17-2-0
3 Calvin (4) 18-0-1
4 Amherst 14-1-1
5 Thomas More 16-1-1
6 Brandeis 15-2-1
7 Montclair State 17-2-0
8 Elizabethtown 16-1-1
9 Franklin & Marshall 15-2-0
10 Oneonta State 13-3-1
11 Whitworth 15-1-1
12 Haverford 14-3-0
13 Carnegie Mellon 11-2-3
14 MIT 15-1-1
15 Middlebury 13-2-1
16 UW-Whitewater 14-3-1
17 Ohio Wesleyan 14-3-2
18 Lycoming 14-1-2
19 Loras 12-4-1
20 Macalester 13-0-5
21 DePauw 11-2-4
22 Eastern Connecticut 14-3-1
23 Colorado College 13-2-3
24 Plattsburgh State 14-3-3
25 Eastern 14-2-2
Dropped out: No. 15 Case Western Reserve, No. 20 Denison, No. 22 Tufts, No. 25 Texas-Dallas
Receiving Votes: Denison 50, St. Lawrence 46, Messiah 44, Stevens 42, Endicott 42, Wheaton (Ill.) 40, Dickinson 36, Case Western Reserve 32, Penn State-Behrend 32, Pacific Lutheran 23, St. Scholastica 21, Washington U. 19, Christopher Newport 17, Hobart 15, Concordia (Wis.) 11, Westminster (Mo.) 11, Texas-Dallas 10, Occidental 8, Redlands 6, Cabrini 6, Tufts 4, Bowdoin 4, Ohio Northern 4, Rose-Hulman 4, Wesleyan (Conn.) 2
The D3soccer.com Top 25 is voted on by a panel of coaches, Sports Information Directors and D3soccer.com staff, and is published weekly.
I am surprised to see St. Lawrence not ranked. And I am surprised to see Eastern still in the top 25, granted they are hanging on by a thin, thin thread. I would swap those two teams. Any other surprises for anybody?
Yea, I think the last four teams are questionable. I agree that St. Lawrence is an option to replace them. I also think Wheaton (Ill.) may be deserving. Stevens, Hobart maybe.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 03, 2015, 08:01:07 AM
Yea, I think the last four teams are questionable. I agree that St. Lawrence is an option to replace them. I also think Wheaton (Ill.) may be deserving. Stevens, Hobart maybe.
FW, a post by NEsoccerfan raised an interesting question about who will potentially receive the first-round byes. And while I opined that I still think Amherst at 14-1-1 will be in with a shout even with losing in its conference tournament, and in my opinion is more likely than - assuming they win out - a potentially 16-2-1 Brandeis or potentially 17-1-1 MIT, I am very much just making a guess. Do you have any thoughts?
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 03, 2015, 08:01:07 AM
Yea, I think the last four teams are questionable. I agree that St. Lawrence is an option to replace them. I also think Wheaton (Ill.) may be deserving. Stevens, Hobart maybe.
Plattsburgh deserves ranking, but St. Lawrence more so.
Conn College not even receiving votes and Tufts only receiving 4 votes where Wesleyan receives 2 votes. Nescac gets hammered in the poll but that won't matter a lick as they will be rewarded with Pool C's.
Also, Brandeis should have moved up a couple more spots and your #1 ranked team is still possibly a bubble team if they lose in their own conference semi's. Fantastic.
Quote from: blooter442 on November 03, 2015, 08:07:38 AM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 03, 2015, 08:01:07 AM
Yea, I think the last four teams are questionable. I agree that St. Lawrence is an option to replace them. I also think Wheaton (Ill.) may be deserving. Stevens, Hobart maybe.
FW, a post by NEsoccerfan raised an interesting question about who will potentially receive the first-round byes. And while I opined that I still think Amherst at 14-1-1 will be in with a shout even with losing in its conference tournament, and in my opinion is more likely than - assuming they win out - a potentially 16-2-1 Brandeis or potentially 17-1-1 MIT, I am very much just making a guess. Do you have any thoughts?
Byes in 2014 went to SUNY Oneonta, Messiah and Wheaton (IL). Wondering if they were the top three teams nationally in the eyes of the NCAA? I don't have last year's regional ranking data, so can't tell, but just curious if they had strongest combo of SoS, RvR and Win%? Pre-Champ Manual (at least as far as I can find it) is silent on HOW the byes are awarded--just says that there are 3 for men.
Quote from: blooter442 on November 03, 2015, 08:07:38 AM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 03, 2015, 08:01:07 AM
Yea, I think the last four teams are questionable. I agree that St. Lawrence is an option to replace them. I also think Wheaton (Ill.) may be deserving. Stevens, Hobart maybe.
FW, a post by NEsoccerfan raised an interesting question about who will potentially receive the first-round byes. And while I opined that I still think Amherst at 14-1-1 will be in with a shout even with losing in its conference tournament, and in my opinion is more likely than - assuming they win out - a potentially 16-2-1 Brandeis or potentially 17-1-1 MIT, I am very much just making a guess. Do you have any thoughts?
I've never gotten the sense that conference tournament performance is given extra weight by the selection committee. Sure, the pure wins/losses/ties get added into a team's overall record, win pct., results vs. ranked., etc. But that's seem to be it. So Amherst could very well still be the committee's top seed from the region. We'll know tomorrow afternoon when their third weekly regional rankings are published. As to first round byes, I still don't know or have a sense for whether and to what extent the committee seeds teams nationally and how hard the committee works to try reward the teams they think are the best with byes. Obviously geography plays a big role in the bracketing and sometimes it can be hard to reward a team with a bye even if "deserving". I don't find it worth trying to predict who will get byes because geography plays such a role. And I'm not sure why anyone should care too much, especially given the recent examples of bye teams getting upset in round two. In other words, I'm not sure the bye is really a reward and advantage.
You can check previous years regional rankings in the archives on this site.
VERY TRUE...Geography is the #1 reason for alot of the D3 tournament until I saw Colorado College being sent to Babson in a RD64/32 game a year or two ago. My thought at the time was maybe the committee forgot to include them and had to just stick them anywhere
Well, Colorado was going to have to fly no matter where they were sent, so maybe sending them further east just helped the overall bracketing puzzle come together. There are nearly infinite possibilities for how you bracket 61 teams, so we will always be able to come up with something different from the committee that we think works better or rewards who we think are the better teams with a deserved path to the Final Four. And maybe sometimes we do stumble upon what would have been a better arrangement than what the committee comes up with. But the committee is under a very serious time-crunch to rank the teams, make the at-large deceisions/selections, develop the bracket, choose host sites, etc. And they are doing this on the side on top of their coaching/teaching/admin duties at their own school/conference. It's a very intense quick turnaround.
Agreed. However, schools that want to and can Host have to apply / let the committee know a week or 2 beforehand. That does mean they all can / should host that is just letting the committee know that if possible they WANT to host. So they have all that worked out beforehand and in my mind they start working on that this week before conference tournaments. Then they fill in the bubble teams and weaker AQ's where appropriate. That is why sometimes you see higher ranked teams or surprise teams that you thought would host and could host heading out on the road.
Well, and some people forget about the rotating priority between men's and women's teams hosting when both are in the tournement. That sometimes explains why a team doesn't host.
New NSCAA National Poll
http://www.nscaa.com/rankings/4884 (http://www.nscaa.com/rankings/4884)
i just realised Kenyon SOS is .489...
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 03, 2015, 08:45:38 AM
Conn College not even receiving votes and Tufts only receiving 4 votes where Wesleyan receives 2 votes. Nescac gets hammered in the poll but that won't matter a lick as they will be rewarded with Pool C's.
This is true..... and why is Loras, the only 4 loss team, listed then?
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 03, 2015, 12:28:53 PM
i just realised Kenyon SOS is .489...
Does that include the win at OWU? They cannot possibly garner a Pool C with that SOS...Not gonna happen
loras is a 3 loss team, technically
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 03, 2015, 12:38:02 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 03, 2015, 12:28:53 PM
i just realised Kenyon SOS is .489...
Does that include the win at OWU? They cannot possibly garner a Pool C with that SOS...Not gonna happen
no, but the Wabash game brings it back down
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 03, 2015, 12:42:20 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 03, 2015, 12:38:02 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 03, 2015, 12:28:53 PM
i just realised Kenyon SOS is .489...
Does that include the win at OWU? They cannot possibly garner a Pool C with that SOS...Not gonna happen
no, but the Wabash game brings it back down
How would a win vs a 11-5-2 Wabash team offset a win @OWU?
Not offset, but SOS will drop when playing Wabash
I do not think that is true either. The Wabash game would bump it up a bit if anything
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 03, 2015, 01:28:06 PM
Not offset, but SOS will drop when playing Wabash
Wabash game should have a positive effect on Kenyon's SoS. Even though they played at home, Kenyon's home-adjusted OWP for Wabash will be .600 (OWP of .706 * .85 = .600), which is obviously significantly higher than their previous SoS. The OWU game will contribute an OWP of 1.042 for Kenyon. I have not calc'd the OOWP's--too time consuming--but I think they will be directionally similar. Net should be positive for Kenyon's SoS and I'm guessing it will go above .500 this week.
Don't forget that the Wabash game was at home for Kenyon. BUT . . ., the Ohio Wesleyan game was away. So that helps more than the home multiplier hurts the Wabash contribution to Kenyon's SOS.
After removing Kenyon's head-to-head win over Wabash, Wabash's win pct. is .705. Wabash's SOS last week was .487. Let's take that as their OOWP just to see how the numbers come out.
2/3(.705) + 1/3(.487) = .633 x 0.85 (home multiplier) = .537
Since Kenyon previously had a SOS of .489, Wabash won't hurt them.
And what about Ohio Wesleyan helping their SOS. Doing the same approximation (using SOS in place of OOWP):
14-3-2 >> remove hed-to-head result >> 14-2-2 = .833 win pct. >> 2/3(.833) + 1/3(.580) = .749 x 1.25 (away multiplier) = .936
The average of Kenyon's two games last week: (.537 + .936)/2 = .737. So Kenyon's SOS should definitely rise.
Just to reiterate FW's point, if Kenyon's old SoS was .489 (14/16 games played) and their SoS from last week was 0.730 (2/16, underestimated to be safe), that would bump their SoS up to 0.519:
(14/16)*.489 + (2/16)*.730 = 0.519.
I was afraid of this and had predicted this outcome in my head.....Dominican "upsets" Concordia (Wis) 3-2. The latter is now the kind of team that has had a dream season (and beat some very good teams like UW-W) who will almost certainly be denied a Pool C.
Just to add on to that last post....and I offer this with no personal decision/opinion (at least not yet) on how things should fall....when folks start saying Tufts or RPI or whoever must get in or deserves to get in there are going to be at least a handful of teams like Concordia, Endicott, W&L, etc who will not get bids as a result. Sort of like in the NCAA bball tourney when a mid-major is 24-2 and gets snubbed. And the idea that some of these teams haven't really played anyone or aren't really deserving because of SoS or RvR is really deceiving regarding the quality of some of these teams.
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 03, 2015, 05:20:40 PM
And the idea that some of these teams haven't really played anyone or aren't really deserving because of SoS or RvR is really deceiving regarding the quality of some of these teams.
Agree with this. Upon reflection, I have been highly critical of MIT all year long, but now I'm starting to think they're legit. Looking at it, 15-1-1 doesn't happen by accident. And while they've been leaking goals more than they were earlier in the season, they were the better team in the draw against Brandeis and were unfortunate not to win on Brandeis' turf. Still think they won't be as battle-tested as a team with a better SOS, which could come back to haunt them in NCAAs where it pays to have prepared against NESCAC/UAA/etc. schools. However, I think they're a good side, and perhaps better than I've given them credit for.
Two more complaints to add to the current criteria....this is sort of like the need for "once ranked, always ranked," but a little different. There are obviously good wins that a team has, even a team that doesn't get ranked, like, let's say wins over W&L, Randolph, etc PLUS teams that drop out of the rankings after being ranked that apparently the cmte can't look at any differently than wins over genuinely weak teams. This whole notion that you want a ranked team but by beating them you might knock them out of the rankings and then not get that benefit just seems crazy.
The other thing that I'm sure I should have been aware of long ago is that earning home field for your conference tournament actually hurts you for SoS. There should be an adjustment for that too or at least a neutral rating for games like that which have been earned based on performance.
Who's Hot?
As we get close to tournament time, it's interesting to see which teams have been doing best in the last few games. Here's a list of top teams, sorted by who has done the best in the last seven games.
SoS aMoV Sum
Haverford 1.46 2.57 4.03
Amherst 1.7 2.29 3.98
Calvin -0.34 4.00 3.66
Ohio Wesleyan 0.44 3.00 3.44
Trinity TX -0.49 3.86 3.36
Middlebury 1.76 1.57 3.33
Montclair St 1.04 2.29 3.32
Frank & Marsh 1.28 1.86 3.14
Oneonta 0.94 2.14 3.08
Kenyon 0.54 2.29 2.82
Thomas More -1.56 4.29 2.72
MIT 1.42 1.14 2.57
Lycoming 0.48 1.86 2.34
Whitworth -0.28 2.43 2.15
Amherst 2.29 3.98 2.14
Elizabethtown -0.12 2.00 1.88
Brandeis 0.66 0.43 1.09
The SoS column is the average Massey power of the last seven teams each team has played. The aMoV is the average margin of victory.
This kind of comparison pays no attention to won/lost record, just how many goals were scored compared to how many an average team would score. A SoS figure one point higher means the same team would win by one less goal per game on average against that schedule.
This kind of comparison is less useful for comparing how teams have done, but it's more accurate for predicting future performance. Note that Massey seems not to have every game recorded, so it may not be the actual last seven for each team, but close.
Amherst still does very well even though they lost a game and tied a game, but Haverford is doing even better. Ohio Wesleyan shows up higher than Kenyon because they had some big wins in that stretch. Some highly ranked teams really aren't doing all that well lately by this measure, e.g. Brandeis.
Herosports.com hot teams:
TEAM BR
100 Milwaukee Engineering 37
99 Chapman 89
99 Middlebury. 13
99 Pacific Lutheran 76
99 St. Lawrence 4
99 Trinity (TX) 19
99 Wheaton (IL) 18
95 Endicott 83
95 Macalester 47
94 Geneseo State 80
UPSETS of the DAY (strongest chance to weakest)
St. Thomas over Macalaster
Manhattanville (4th seed over #1 seed Kings)
UMW over Salisbury
Rowan over MSU
RIC over ECSU in PKs
Expecting all other ranked teams to prevail
Notable games
Swat over JHU
Brockport St over Cortland St
WPI over Springfield
Redlands over Occidental
I mean there is so much parity these days are there even really that many upsets anymore.
I'll go the opposite of every one of those picks just for the f of it...All 10 games. Since you are predicting these as upsets I will give you odds that I will go .550 Win % because of ties and all that. You go under that mark I need a new pair of sneakers.
Was it last year or the year before that before that when the 3rd rankings came out there was a ton of shuffling. Almost like the committee was shuffling a deck of cards in some regions. I feel that will be the case as well today.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 04, 2015, 11:27:47 AM
I mean there is so much parity these days are there even really that many upsets anymore.
Agreed. I've noticed that, in the UAA particularly, the idea of home-field advantage has eroded significantly this year. Aside from Carnegie, every UAA team lost
at least one conference game
at home, and Chicago, Emory, and NYU have lost two or more. Brandeis went a perfect 3-0 in conference at home last year, but didn't win the conference, while this year they won the UAA with a 2-1 home conference record yet are 3-0 on the road. I think the universal nature of turf might have something to do with it, whereas in the NESCAC and other grass field-based conferences there can be more variability and thus more "home-field advantage." Could also just be the randomness of the schedule, but it is interesting.
Edit: While not losing, Carnegie is 1-0-2 at home, so its home-field advantage isn't that strong, either.
Never understood how the NEAC conference and Skyline conferences play these Mid-Week games at 11am or 1pm during the whole season. This is exactly what NCAA III is trying to cut into and when you have some conferences and teams blatantly having kids miss a FULL day of classes for a game that could be played at 3:30pm you are giving the NCAA every available avenue to start cutting into ALL Midweek games. Once they make a mandatory minimum of games a team can play in a season(which I do not think is to far off) this will eliminate most Mid-weeks anyway but these conferences and teams are basically saying 1. We are oblivious 2. We want and should be in a D4 anyway so screw or 3. We do not care
Quote from: blooter442 on November 04, 2015, 11:54:12 AM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 04, 2015, 11:27:47 AM
I mean there is so much parity these days are there even really that many upsets anymore.
Agreed. I've noticed that, in the UAA particularly, the idea of home-field advantage has eroded significantly this year. Aside from Carnegie, every UAA team lost at least one conference game at home, and Chicago, Emory, and NYU have lost two or more. Brandeis went a perfect 3-0 in conference at home last year, but didn't win the conference, while this year they won the UAA with a 2-1 home conference record yet are 3-0 on the road. I think the universal nature of turf might have something to do with it, whereas in the NESCAC and other grass field-based conferences there can be more variability and thus more "home-field advantage." Could also just be the randomness of the schedule, but it is interesting.
Edit: While not losing, Carnegie is 1-0-2 at home, so its home-field advantage isn't that strong, either.
Kenyon lost its only game at home this year as well and there are plenty of other good examples. Your point is one great reason why the current .85 home discount and 1.25 away game multiplier should be re-evaluated by the NCAA. Among other reasons, it's unfair to penalize teams for playing home games. If you want to reward teams for playing away, that makes more logical, intuitive sense. NCACNE's point, which I've made elsewhere as well, is that teams shouldn't be penalized in post-season for playing games at home, when they earned HFA by being the top seeds in their conference. It rewards the lower seeded teams for losing and penalizes the winning teams for winning... SoS is absolutely critical and an essential metric for the NCAA to measure and use as an objective criteria. The combining of the home/away metric within the SoS calc, using the current metrics, distorts and reduces the value of the current SoS, because it isn't clear if, for example, you have a .600 because you played a very tough schedule, or because you played a season of mostly away games, or you played all your tough games away and all your easy games at home. If the NCAA published an unweighted SoS (no home/away adjustments) as an additional metric, then you would at least be able to compare the magnitude of the multiplier effect. The .85 to 1.25 adjustment is so large that it overwhelms the underlying OWP and OOWP calcs, as a percent of the original OWPs and OOWPs, as FW and I have detailed elsewhere (as much as 47% or more on a single OWP calc.) Your point above is empirical proof that the calc, at present, is arbitrarily assigned and bears no resemblance in reality.
ncaa.com regional rankings... click.... doh. refresh... DOH.... refresh.. DOHHH. refresh.... c'monnn
For those interested, St. Lawrence vs. Union begins in 30 min with a berth in the title game on the line. SLU has one of the best streaming services in the nation.
Last time out, SLU thrashed Union 8-0. Don't expect this game to look anything like that.
Hobart will be watching this one closely, as they need SLU to clinch the AQ to leave themselves a shot.
A SLU win means yet another championship game at home, where they've won back-to-back conference playoff titles.
This is Union's only shot at their first bid in some years.
A union upset would mean Skidmore hosting the title game.
http://saintsathletics.com/sports/2013/9/3/MSOC_0903132907.aspx
Hobart can watch as closely as they want but they are COOKED...Bet my house on it
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 04, 2015, 01:13:36 PM
Hobart can watch as closely as they want but they are COOKED...Bet my house on it
How big's youre house... ;D
Got excited that the rankings were updated then realized I was still on the D1 tab...awkward :'(
They are updated
Eastern and FDU-Florham still tied 0-0, 70 min in...
Thomas More loses with 25 seconds left. There goes one great lakes bid . . .
Hate to say I called a TMC loss....although I thought it would be in final. Now TMC is sweating. RPI is gonna get in and TMC not??? Wow!
TMC probably still gets in but losing in the semis has them on the bubble now instead of a lock...
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on November 04, 2015, 04:56:43 PM
TMC probably still gets in but losing in the semis has them on the bubble now instead of a lock...
Agree with this. Don't think they're going to get John Carroll'd (sorry, too funny, laughed out loud at it), but that certainly takes away someone else's Pool C I'm afraid.
CSS's Kyle Farrer now with 24g on the year in the 10-0 rout today...
I posted this in more detail in the Great Lakes thread, but I'll summarize briefly. I think TMC is in trouble. Given that Kenyon won today and now has five ranked wins, and that TMC was already behind DePauw and Carnegie Mellon in the regional rankings, that pushes TMC to fourth in the GL - and third in the Pool C pecking order, behind CMU and one NCAC team.
If OWU wins the AQ, that would push TMC to fourth in the pecking order. And if OWU beats DePauw tonight, OWU is almost definitely jumping DePauw and TMC. So TMC would need the GL to get four at-large bids to get in. Possible, but not a fun place to be.
Even if DePauw wins tonight, that still puts TMC in a tough spot being third (or even fourth if they drop below OWU) in the at-large order for the GL.
Yes, TMC is done in my opinion. When you play in a weak conference, there is little or no room for error...
Rutgers-Camden up 1-0 on Stockton 15 in
Rowan up 1-0 on MSU
So since no one has chimed in to suggest it has ever happened, can we at least assume that in terms of recent memory no team has made the NCAA tourney who didn't make their conference tourney? Two big examples this year are standing out as possibilities given the latest....the often mentioned RPI and the more under the radar North Park (also ranked #4 in their region I believe). We may have to call Dick Vitale in when the selections are announced on Selection Monday.
I do not see how OWU is a lock even if they win tonight. That is only 2 wins v ranked. I have never seen so many teams with 5+ regionally ranked wins. I feel like this has been inflated a bit for some reason but oh well. It really burns me that the CCC get the bottom 3 rankings in New England to give Calvin a 1-0-1 RvR. They still need the AQ but give me a break. I think go back to the once ranked always ranked but ELIMINATE the bottom 2-3 teams in some of the Eastern regions as they are inflating RvR to me to mean not as much as it used to. Also, the away multiplier is fine but bump the home win up to 1.00. You all are right , why are we penalizing home wins that much. I mean UMASS Boston would't have even sniffed the rankings without all those road games.
How did this DePauw team win 11 games? Am I missing something or is the video in slow motion
Rutgers-Camden 2, Stockton 0. Red card for Stockton in 82nd min... Mike Ryan misses PK and subsequent rebound...
MSU will host Camden Saturday... Camden same record going into final as last season but they are ranked this time.
Another red for Stockton in 83rd min
Lol gotta love the emotion and passion of the NJAC...Any running count on reds for the conference this year? 6 goal scorelines..Love it...Waiting for fisticuffs in the Final which I hope is streamed this year
So Stockton just lost 2 players for the NCAA's?
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 04, 2015, 08:44:31 PM
I do not see how OWU is a lock even if they win tonight. That is only 2 wins v ranked. I have never seen so many teams with 5+ regionally ranked wins. I feel like this has been inflated a bit for some reason but oh well.
OWU is a lock, IMO, because they now have three ranked wins for next week - Oberlin jumped into the rankings, meaning OWU has wins over DePauw x2 plus Oberlin. And with a game at Kenyon plus tonight's game OWU's SoS is going to be around 0.600. Even with a loss to Kenyon, OWU should be a lock at 15-4-2, 3-3-1 RvR, and SoS 0.590-0.600.
I think where I initially got so thrown by the SoS hoopla is that it seems like 2-3 years ago there was MUCH more focus on how many a blemishes a team had, and more talk about a line in the sand number of blemishes. DePauw has 7 now. Other teams have 6, 7, 8 blemishes but apparently that doesn't matter as much as I thought.
I think blemishes matter, it's just that this year there are so many teams with a high number of blemishes. Also, in recent seasons teams such as Rochester (the board's favorite example) have gotten in despite a ton of blemishes because they hit the rest of the criteria (SoS, ranked wins) very well. So either things have shifted with the committee or our collective understanding of what matters has improved.
Quote from: Ryan Harmanis on November 04, 2015, 09:05:45 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 04, 2015, 08:44:31 PM
I do not see how OWU is a lock even if they win tonight. That is only 2 wins v ranked. I have never seen so many teams with 5+ regionally ranked wins. I feel like this has been inflated a bit for some reason but oh well.
OWU is a lock, IMO, because they now have three ranked wins for next week - Oberlin jumped into the rankings, meaning OWU has wins over DePauw x2 plus Oberlin. And with a game at Kenyon plus tonight's game OWU's SoS is going to be around 0.600. Even with a loss to Kenyon, OWU should be a lock at 15-4-2, 3-3-1 RvR, and SoS 0.590-0.600.
Won't OWU SOS go down against Kenyon? Listen after watching both teams I think they are both NCAA teams I just feel a .510 SOS should not be considered a LOCK
No, it will go way up because Kenyon is 16-1 and an away game for OWU.
Right....My head is still spinning from the Record v Ranked.
Can anyone calculate the 2014 Record v Ranked Totals against 2015
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 04, 2015, 09:11:13 PM
Won't OWU SOS go down against Kenyon? Listen after watching both teams I think they are both NCAA teams I just feel a .510 SOS should not be considered a LOCK
Nope, it'll actually get a really big boost. Kenyon's win%, taking out their W over OWU, is 0.9375, plus you get the road multiplier. So even if Kenyon's OOWP is 0.510 (its SOS), I'd roughly calculate the SOS boost to be (stealing from Flying Weasel's approximate method):
[(2/3)*0.9375 + (1/3)*.510]*1.25 =
0.994. OWU will also get a slight boost for DePauw, as two of DePauw's three losses came to OWU, so once you remove those DePauw's win% is 0.8125. Even with the home multiplier the SOS OWU gets for playing DePauw, if we assume DePauw's OOWP is close to its SoS around 0.550, would be:
[(2/3)*0.8125 + (1/3)*.557]*0.85 =
0.618. Now, to get really math-heavy, if we weight those two games against OWU's previous 0.578 SOS for its first 19 games, you end up with:
(19/21)*0.578 + (1/21)*.994 + (1/21)*0.618 =
0.600. That might be slightly off depending on the OOWP, but basically OWU's SOS is going to be above 0.590. If you do the same for Kenyon, their SOS should be somewhere between 0.515-0.520 (I get 0.519).
(Also, I'm willing to do this calculation for any team if we throw someone's name out there, obviously I have the OWU ties which means I do it on my own for them).
Quote from: Ryan Harmanis on November 04, 2015, 09:09:23 PM
I think blemishes matter, it's just that this year there are so many teams with a high number of blemishes. Also, in recent seasons teams such as Rochester (the board's favorite example) have gotten in despite a ton of blemishes because they hit the rest of the criteria (SoS, ranked wins) very well. So either things have shifted with the committee or our collective understanding of what matters has improved.
Maybe a little of both. I could almost swear that 2-3 years ago we talked about the number of blemishes the way we've talked about SoS this year. SoS is the new blemishes, I guess.
Macalester losing in 72nd minute 1-0.
Well, now what happens with Macalester? And Redlands down 1-0 early. Both CCIW games deadlocked. Maybe the best strategy is NOT to make your conference tourney, lol. RPI and North Park can't pick up any more losses if they aren't playing.
Wheaton falls to North Central in penalties. Another Pool C sucked up.
Unreal. Along with Haverford I thought Wheaton was one of the hottest teams in the country. In another couple of days Amherst will be on the bubble lol.
Was a fun game to attend. NCC left it all on the field and got a bit lucky, but came out on top in the end. Wheaton was in and out of sync all night and couldn't put away any of their chances. Only 5 sog out of 24 attempts is a good summary of how the night went for the Thunder. A few unconverted sitters kept the game tight when it should of been blown wide open. Hats off to NCC who went into conference with a 1-9 record and is now in the championship against Carthage who nipped them 1-0 in ot on an own goal a month ago
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 04, 2015, 09:02:51 PM
So Stockton just lost 2 players for the NCAA's?
Stockton and Rowan both picked up losses, but Rowan was ahead in regional ranking AND playing a 17-2 away. I don't see Stockton jumping them after losing a home game. Camden now 5-3-1 RvR. With Wheaton and Macalaster falling spots are filling fast. NJAC or SUNYAC could end up only being 2 bid leagues.
This is Rutgers-Camden's fifth consecutive NJAC Championship appearance. That's a pretty phenomenal accomplishment considering the depth of the league...
Two conference favorites upset yesterday. Not even counting Amherst getting bounced by a team it had beaten 5-0 the week before.
Gonna set the over/under for conference favorites upset between now and the selection show (including yesterday's two): 5.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 05, 2015, 12:49:05 AM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 04, 2015, 09:02:51 PM
So Stockton just lost 2 players for the NCAA's?
Stockton and Rowan both picked up losses, but Rowan was ahead in regional ranking AND playing a 17-2 away. I don't see Stockton jumping them after losing a home game. Camden now 5-3-1 RvR. With Wheaton and Macalaster falling spots are filling fast. NJAC or SUNYAC could end up only being 2 bid leagues.
This is Rutgers-Camden's fifth consecutive NJAC Championship appearance. That's a pretty phenomenal accomplishment considering the depth of the league...
So I get taking a whole season into consideration and some wins / losses can be one offs but let's look at the NJAC. Montclair makes the tournament whether they win or loose the final. Camden should make the tournament if they loose the final but that would leave them w/ 8 losses and at this point Rowan and Stockton are ranked higher regionally according to the NCAA. So if NJAC gets a third team in it will be up to Rowan and Stockton. Both teams are relatively strong and can go on a run in the tournament (no way am I suggesting either can win the tournament but stranger things have happened). Stockton beat Rowan at Rowan this year, would that be taken into consideration at all when looking at who makes it? No chance both make it and the NJAC is a 4 team league? Lots of questions to be answered!! It's going to be a nervous rest of the week for some teams!!
I would say that the NJAC at this point is a 2 bid league. Camden has beaten Stockton twice, Newark twice, Rowan once. Even with their 7 losses at the moment, you'd think they are in contention for a POOL C over both Rowan SA#2 and Stockton SA#3.
Rowan benefits from an away game vs MSU, whereas the home loss hurts Stockton. If there were a 3rd team, I'd lean Rowan (but even a second team is no guarantee at this point).
Also, I do not think an 8 loss or 9 blemish team has ever received an at-large bid...
REGION BY REGION SOS RANKINGS
0.5083 New England
0.5069 West
0.5065 South Atlantic
0.5057 East
0.4978 North
0.4970 Central
0.4970 Mid-Atlantic
0.4961 Great Lakes
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 04, 2015, 09:11:13 PM
Quote from: Ryan Harmanis on November 04, 2015, 09:05:45 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 04, 2015, 08:44:31 PM
I do not see how OWU is a lock even if they win tonight. That is only 2 wins v ranked. I have never seen so many teams with 5+ regionally ranked wins. I feel like this has been inflated a bit for some reason but oh well.
OWU is a lock, IMO, because they now have three ranked wins for next week - Oberlin jumped into the rankings, meaning OWU has wins over DePauw x2 plus Oberlin. And with a game at Kenyon plus tonight's game OWU's SoS is going to be around 0.600. Even with a loss to Kenyon, OWU should be a lock at 15-4-2, 3-3-1 RvR, and SoS 0.590-0.600.
Won't OWU SOS go down against Kenyon? Listen after watching both teams I think they are both NCAA teams I just feel a .510 SOS should not be considered a LOCK
My prediction for the GL region is that CMU is a lock at this point, even w/ a loss to Case, as they'll still have a .566+ SoS (given an away game at CWRU remaining for their SoS), above .500 RvR and a high enough win rate to make them legit. I think their position could change within the top 3 spots for the region, but I think the NCAA will want to diversify away from 2 pool C's going to NCAC schools and none to UAA or others. I think TMC's stats are not going to be strong enough after the loss to Westminster to keep them in. To me, it looks like CMU plus the loser of the OWU/Kenyon NCAC Finals on Saturday for GL region Pool C bids. Kenyon's RvR and Win%, both still by far the region's highest at 5-1-0 (.833) and 16-1-0 (.941), resp., and rising SoS, as noted above and below by RH, should boost them ahead of DPU, who will now have a 2-3-2 RvR (.429), low relative Win % (.722), in spite of a still strong SoS of .557 (and rising since they played OWU away). It's possible that the committee could keep DPU higher than Kenyon since the Lords lost a head to head game, but my instinct is that Kenyon should outrank DPU next week.
NATIONWIDE SOS (AQ/POOL C ELIGIBLE, RANKED TEAMS IN BOLD)
637 Williams
623 Tufts
619 Brandeis
618 Wesleyan (CT)
609 Rochester (NY)
604 Babson
602 Loras
601 Centre
599 Chicago
597 Rutgers-Camden
595 UW-W
594 Swarthmore
585 Hamilton
584 Haverford
584 North Central (IL)
583 Oneonta St
582 Catholic
582 Roger Williams
581 PIT
581 MSU
580 Messiah
579 Middlebury
579 UC Santa Cruz
579 Wheaton (MA)
579 Rutgers-Newark
578 Coast Guard
578 OWU
578 Vassar
578 Emory
578 Rowan
578 William Peace
577 Luther
577 Ursinus
577 Washington U
575 MA-Boston
575 Muhlenberg
574 Plymouth St
573 Amherst
573 JHU
573 Potsdam St
573 Trinity (CT)
573 TCNJ
572 Fredonia
571 Benedictine
571 St. John's (MN)
571 Stockton
570 Wheaton (Ill)
569 Allegheny
569 Dickinson
569 NYU
567 Bowdoin
567 Dubuque
567 F&M
567 SLU
566 CMU
566 Connecticut
565 UW-O
564 Hamline
564 RPI
563 Clarkson
563 Colby
563 Plattsburgh St
562 Wittenberg
561 Alvernia
561 Geneseo St
561 Keene St
561 Lasell
561 Macalester
561 Ramapo
560 NJCU
559 St. Olaf
557 Bates
557 DePauw
556 UW-P
555 Brockport St
555 DeSales
555 MSOE
555 Scranton
554 St. John Fisher
554 St. Thomas
550 Cortland St
550 Denison
550 Hiram
550 Salve Regina
549 WNEC
548 North Park
547 York (PA)
546 Gettysburg
546 Oswego St
545 Lycoming
545 Oberlin
544 Carthage
544 Miseri
543 Merchant Marine
543 MIT
542 Augsburg
542 Carleton
542 Stevens Tech
542 Union
541 CNU
540 Hardin-Simmons
540 Rhode Island Col
536 Buffalo St
536 Kean
535 Wartburg
535 Frostburg St
535 Salisbury
534 Susquehanna
533 Elmhurt
533 Ithaca
532 GAC
532 Mary Washington
530 Dallas
530 Pomona-Pitzer
529 Claremont MS
529 Drew
529 Southern Maine
529 Southwestern
529 W&L
528 Pacific Lutheran
527 Austin
527 Marietta
527 New Paltz St
527 Wentworth
526 Aurora
526 CWRU
526 ECSU
526 Gordon
526 Ill Wesleyan
526 LVC
526 Olivet
526 Thomas More
526 Western Conn St
526 Wilmington (OH)
526 Eastern Mennonite
525 Concordia-M'head
525 E-town
525 Skidmore
524 Albion
524 Colorado
524 Dominican (IL)
524 Hobart
524 Manhattanville
524 Simpson
523 Kalamazoo
523 WPI
522 Heidelberg
522 Berry
521 Capital
521 Central (IA)
521 Trinity (TX)
520 FDU-Florham
520 Framingham St
520 St. Norbert
520 Texas-Tyler
520 Randolph
520 Southern Virginia
519 Carroll (WI)
519 Chapman
519 Goucher
519 Mt. St. Mary (NY)
519 St. Mary's (MN)
518 Calvin
518 Wabash
517 Curry
517 U New England
516 Eastern Mennonite
516 Moravian
516 Willamette
515 Augustana
515 Edgewood
515 Nichols
515 Stevenson
514 Geneva
514 Puget Sound
513 Albright
513 VWU
513 Wesley
512 Cal Lutheran
512 Clark (MA)
512 George Fox
512 Lynchburg
511 Mary Hardin-Baylor
511 Rose-Hulman
511 Whitman
511 St. Mary's (MD)
510 Kenyon
509 Anderson (IN)
509 Bethel (MN)
509 MA-Dartmouth
509 Milikin
509 Utica
509 Widener
508 John Carroll
508 Occidental
508 Redlands
508 Piedmont
507 Caltech
507 Purchase
507 St. Mary's (MD)
507 Whittier
507 Wisconsin Lutheran
506 Eastern
506 Hanover
506 Marymount (VA)
505 Concordia-Wis
505 Grove City
505 McDaniel
505 McMurry
505 Sewanee
504 Endicott
504 Washington Coll
504 Waynesburg
502 Arcadia
502 Bethany (WV)
502 Emmanuel (MA)
502 Juniata
502 Lakeland
502 Morrisville St
502 Wooster
500 Belhaven
500 Canton St
500 Emerson
500 Hope
499 Colby-Sawyer
499 Nazareth
499 Neumann
499 Salem St
499 Rhodes
498 D'Youville
498 Greenville
498 Linfield
498 Whitworth
498 Oglethorpe
LGOTB, if you post one more SoS chart I'm gonna post winning % charts for the last 50 years ;).
It's ONE out of the FIVE major criteria :P.
Yes, it is...
People are always curious of SOS where it's not easily sorted out, thanks in part to the dumb PDF Files...
You're Welcome.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 05, 2015, 01:54:21 PM
Yes, it is...
People are always curious of SOS where it's not easily sorted out, thanks in part to the dumb PDF Files...
You're Welcome.
Love ya, LGOTB. Let's meet at the Vince Lombardi Service Area on the Pike and watch all the games from there. You bring 3 devices and I'll bring 3 and we'll run 6 games at a time.
I'll have to check my schedule:
NJAC FINAL SAT 11/7/15
MSU's 7th conference final appearance in 10 years. FOUR PEAT (2006-2007-2008-2009); (2014)
Rutgers-Camden's 6th conference final appearance in 8 years. THREE PEAT (2011-2012-2013)
PREVIOUS NJAC CHAMPIONSHIP MATCH-UPS between the two:
2014: MSU 3, RUC 1. MSU bounced by Stevens in first round.
2011: RUC 1, MSU 0. MSU Went to the FINAL 4. RUC lost to Oneonta St in 2OT ELITE 8
2008: MSU 1, RUC 0. MSU was 21-0, Lost to Messiah 1-0 OT in Round of 32
While we are bantering (and sweating) about who is in and who is out, imagine having to play some of these teams in a Rd of 32 game or even 1st round....Wheaton (Ill), Messiah, Tufts, Middlebury, OWU or Kenyon, RUC or Rowan, TMC, F&M or Haverford, SLU, Brockport, etc, etc. Tournament is going to be wilder than ever this year.
I will wait for the Odds Specialist, Mr.Right before I go shopping for bananas.
Senior laden team, typically organized defensively, with a more than mediocre SOS or strong conference, and a solid goal scorer that can carry a team...
I'd think Haverford at 20/1 odds would be a fair valuation...
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 05, 2015, 01:54:21 PM
Yes, it is...
People are always curious of SOS where it's not easily sorted out, thanks in part to the dumb PDF Files...
You're Welcome.
Just LOL as my nephews would say! ;D
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 05, 2015, 03:20:08 PM
I will wait for the Odds Specialist, Mr.Right before I go shopping for bananas.
Senior laden team, typically organized defensively, with a more than mediocre SOS or strong conference, and a solid goal scorer that can carry a team...
I'd think Haverford at 20/1 odds would be a fair valuation...
I'd bet $5 you see either Oneonta St or Fords in the final or both!
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 05, 2015, 03:44:43 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 05, 2015, 03:20:08 PM
I will wait for the Odds Specialist, Mr.Right before I go shopping for bananas.
Senior laden team, typically organized defensively, with a more than mediocre SOS or strong conference, and a solid goal scorer that can carry a team...
I'd think Haverford at 20/1 odds would be a fair valuation...
I'd bet $5 you see either Oneonta St or Fords in the final or both!
i'll take that action just add a couple zeroes to it.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 05, 2015, 03:48:14 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 05, 2015, 03:44:43 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 05, 2015, 03:20:08 PM
I will wait for the Odds Specialist, Mr.Right before I go shopping for bananas.
Senior laden team, typically organized defensively, with a more than mediocre SOS or strong conference, and a solid goal scorer that can carry a team...
I'd think Haverford at 20/1 odds would be a fair valuation...
I'd bet $5 you see either Oneonta St or Fords in the final or both!
i'll take that action just add a couple zeroes to it.
Still waiting for my bananas from the Skid vs SLU match bet we had...
Back on the d3soccer forum... we had friendly entrance fee for the bracket pool... one college soccer t-shirt.
Winner gets the whole lot. Not a bad gig if you don't mind using a PO Box or UPS Pick-up... Perhaps ship the shirts to me with no return mailing address haha. I'll be winning it anyways
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 05, 2015, 03:53:29 PM
Back on the d3soccer forum... we had friendly entrance fee for the bracket pool... one college soccer t-shirt.
Winner gets the whole lot. Not a bad gig if you don't mind using a PO Box or UPS Pick-up... Perhaps ship the shirts to me with no return mailing address haha. I'll be winning it anyways
I will do that. More interested in what the next D3Soccer Poll Question will be though :p
The next poll on D3soccer.com
Will Mr.Right be Mr.Wrong
YES
NO
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 05, 2015, 04:34:43 PM
The next poll on D3soccer.com
Will Mr.Right be Mr.Wrong
YES
NO
He's more right than most of us are (with the exception of perhaps NCAC's newfound clairvoyant tendencies), so he can keep his title.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 03, 2015, 08:51:33 AM
Quote from: blooter442 on November 03, 2015, 08:07:38 AM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 03, 2015, 08:01:07 AM
Yea, I think the last four teams are questionable. I agree that St. Lawrence is an option to replace them. I also think Wheaton (Ill.) may be deserving. Stevens, Hobart maybe.
FW, a post by NEsoccerfan raised an interesting question about who will potentially receive the first-round byes. And while I opined that I still think Amherst at 14-1-1 will be in with a shout even with losing in its conference tournament, and in my opinion is more likely than - assuming they win out - a potentially 16-2-1 Brandeis or potentially 17-1-1 MIT, I am very much just making a guess. Do you have any thoughts?
I've never gotten the sense that conference tournament performance is given extra weight by the selection committee. Sure, the pure wins/losses/ties get added into a team's overall record, win pct., results vs. ranked., etc. But that's seem to be it. So Amherst could very well still be the committee's top seed from the region. We'll know tomorrow afternoon when their third weekly regional rankings are published. As to first round byes, I still don't know or have a sense for whether and to what extent the committee seeds teams nationally and how hard the committee works to try reward the teams they think are the best with byes. Obviously geography plays a big role in the bracketing and sometimes it can be hard to reward a team with a bye even if "deserving". I don't find it worth trying to predict who will get byes because geography plays such a role. And I'm not sure why anyone should care too much, especially given the recent examples of bye teams getting upset in round two. In other words, I'm not sure the bye is really a reward and advantage.
A follow-up to my own post . . .
I never noticed the following change in the Pre-Championships Manual until this week.
Here's the former and current fourth and final bullet item in Section 2.5 Determination of Teams.
Up through the 2013 season (2013 Manual (http://www.d3soccer.com/ncaa-publications/2013/2013-Division-III-Soccer-Pre-Championships-Manual.pdf)):
The highest-seeded team that meets all selection criteria (and after a review of the submitted host materials) will
be selected as the host institution, provided geographic proximity is maintained.
Starting with the 2014 season (Current manual (http://www.d3soccer.com/ncaa-publications/2015/2015-NCAA-Division-III-Soccer_Pre-Championships-Manual.pdf)):
A team that meets all selection criteria (and after a review of the submitted host materials) will be selected as
the host institution, provided geographic proximity is maintained.So, the committee has more liberty to award hosting priviledges to whoever. There is no longer a stated goal of trying to reward the highest seeds. Very interesting change. Makes the committtees job a bit easier.
I'm not sure what role seeding plays.
The second bullet item is hard to know what is meant by it:
Teams may be seeded on a regional basis using the regional selection criteria. However, geographic proximity
takes precedence over seeding.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 05, 2015, 04:45:37 PM
Teams may be seeded on a regional basis using the regional selection criteria. However, geographic proximity takes precedence over seeding.
Geography takes precedence over seeding. That's a really interesting point, FW. One might suspect that Amherst's location in Central MA might make them a more suitable candidate for geographic reasons (closer to NY state, closer to NYC, etc.) for a sectional than Brandeis. Then again, Oneonta isn't exactly a convenient drive for anybody except for the upstate NY schools, so I guess it all depends on who is in the sectional.
Well, geography has always taken precedent. That hasn't changed. But there is no longer any goal of rewarding the highest seeded team if possible within the constraints of geography.
My guess is that they'll still in practice try to reward higher seeds where possible, but this way when someone complains about not hosting they can go: "hey, we never said we were going to give the highest seeds the right to host".
Next poll....Which team that receives a Pool C bid will be biggest surprise...
Going with predicting who will be biggest snub would seem a little impolite. That comes after the selection show.
Alternative guess is something having to do with the selection criteria (like what should be considered most important).
Pacific Lutheran for biggest surprise
TMC to be the last team out
Bloots, too many predictions is a guaranteed recipe for a losing streak, but.....and while the ball is cloudy...I can faintly see Haverford not winning the Centennial...and the loss isn't in the final....and I think I see a vague image of Bowdoin players lifting another trophy.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 05, 2015, 07:12:23 PM
Pacific Lutheran for biggest surprise
TMC to be the last team out
I like the Pac Lutheran pick, ESPECIALLY if a couple of spots are left open by no further very likely teams losing their AQs (Loras, Calvin, F&M or Haverford, E'town, etc).
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 05, 2015, 07:12:23 PM
Pacific Lutheran for biggest surprise
TMC to be the last team out
I can see TMC, although I hope not (or maybe I do because they could knock my team out early), and TMC for one of the last spots vs a 3rd NESCAC and/or 3rd NJAC would be compelling....or even TMC vs MIT when MIT loses the AQ (there's another one bloots).
53:31, Weather delay
1 Mary Hardin-Baylor
0 Hardin-Simmons
Seems like half the games in TX have been cancelled this year. What is going on with the weather patterns over there?
When was last time a team from Texas (other than Trinity) or the West Coast was in the Final Four?
This had to be a year with more #1s in history of nscaa n d3soccer...
Elmira and Ithaca in PKs. It's that time of year! Neither team wants to miss! 3-3 after 6 shooters
5-5 headed to sudden death!
9-9...crazy no one has missed.
10-10...and it continues...isn't there a rule where the same player can continuously take them over and over once the 10 mark is reached?
Ithaca GK with the SAVE!!!
And Ithaca wins it 11-10 in PK's!!! Unbelievable shootout. :o
No one has missed because those GK were average at best. Good for Ithaca as that was once a storied program that has really fallen on hard times.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 06, 2015, 01:36:22 PM
No one has missed because those GK were average at best. Good for Ithaca as that was once a storied program that has really fallen on hard times.
PK's for the most part were good which is surprising to see from the 6-10 slots...but yes Ithaca keeper should have saved 2 of first 10 and Elmira GK should have probably had 2 as well.
Anyone have luck with the Massey Ratings? Maybe they will get sorted out after the conference playoffs have concluded...
Sorted the Massey Ratings out in excel, as it has all of college ranked up to 500... Removed the overall ranks and adjusted accordingly:
1) Amherst
2) Middlebury
3) Calvin
4) Montclair St
5) Haverford
6) Frank & Marsh
7) Kenyon
8) SUNY Oneonta
9) Brandeis
10) MIT
11) lizabethtown
12) Tufts
13) Lycoming
14) Bowdoin
15) St Lawrence
16) Rowan
17) CT College
18) Williams
19) Endicott
20) Messiah
21) Wesleyan CT
22) Brockport St
23) Dickinson
24) Trinity TX
25) Ohio Wesleyan
26) Hobart-Smith
27) Thomas More
28) MA Boston
29) Loras
30) Plattsburgh St
31) Whitworth
32) Carnegie Mellon
33) R Stockton
34) Stevens Tech
35) Cortland St
36) WI Whitewater
37) Gordon
38) Rensselaer
39) Bridgewater MA
40) Johns Hopkins
41) Skidmore
42) Rutgers-Camden
43) Redlands
44) Wheaton IL
45) Eastern Univ
46) E Connecticut
47) Washington MO
48) Macalester
49) La Verne
50) DePauw
51) Case Western
52) Gettysburg
53) Ohio Northern
54) Chicago
55) Bates
56) Occidental
57) WI Oshkosh
58) Colorado Col
59) Trinity CT
60) Rochester NY
61) Salisbury St
62) Kean
63) Pac Lutheran
64) Springfield
65) Rutgers-Newark
66) St Scholastica
67) College of NJ
68) North Park
69) Union NY
70) Wash & Lee
71) Babson
72) Geneseo St
73) Wheaton MA
74) Chris Newport
75) Wentworth Tech
76) Denison
77) Vassar
78) King's PA
79) John Carroll
80) St Thomas MN
81) Dubuque
82) SUNY Potsdam
83) Oberlin
84) Rose-Hulman
85) Milwaukee Eng
86) Chapman
87) Buffalo St
88) Randolph Col
89) Mary Washington
90) St. John's MN
91) Hamilton
92) W New England
93) RI College
94) Thomas ME
95) Concordia WI
96) Frostburg St
97) Dominican IL
98) Drew
99) UT Dallas
100) PSU-Behrend
101) Scranton
102) St Olaf
103) WI Platteville
HeroSports.com (formerly Bennett Rankings)
BR Team SOS HEAT
1 Haverford...............15 89
2 Kenyon..................109 88
3 Calvin....................122 89
4 St. Lawrence...........30 99
5 Loras......................18 80
6 Franklin & Marshall..101 47
7 Montclair State........26 77
8 Rowan....................22 92
9 Thomas More..........155 92
10 Oneonta State.........33 91
11 Messiah..................56 86
12 Amherst.................37 53
13 Middlebury..............37 99
14 Lycoming................125 93
15 Cortland State.........109 93
16 Ohio Wesleyan.........77 73
17 UW Oshkosh............75 65
18 Wheaton (IL)..........104 99
19 Trinity (TX).............256 99
20 Tufts........................3 51
21 Bowdoin..................21 90
22 UW Whitewater........74 73
23 Plattsburgh State....104 56
24 North Park...............82 48
25 Stevens...................97 46
26 MIT.......................119 91
27 Dickinson.................31 77
28 Richard Stockton.......24 59
29 Case Western...........53 46
30 Williams....................1 66
31 Elizabethtown..........142 77
32 Whitworth...............215 83
33 Brockport State.......134 87
34 Wesleyan (CT)..........17 36
35 Brandeis..................11 70
36 RPI.........................28 57
37 MSOE....................199 100
38 Wash U....................53 78
39 Carnegie Mellon........76 71
40 Hobart.....................95 91
41 Kean......................103 8
42 Chicago....................12 60
43 Rutgers-Camden........14 51
44 Rochester .................18 47
45 Skidmore.................108 32
46 MA-Boston...............206 60
47 Macalester................97 95
48 Occidental...............162 80
49 DePauw..................125 60
50 Vassar....................107 46
Calvin has 16 shutouts in 20 games. Also the fun stat of the week.... they have not trailed all season long.
How will this group respond when conceding a goal first? My guess is that they will lose in the round of 32.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 06, 2015, 05:08:06 PM
Calvin has 16 shutouts in 20 games. Also the fun stat of the week.... they have not trailed all season long.
How will this group respond when conceding a goal first? My guess is that they will lose in the round of 32.
You talk as though this team was immaculately conceived without stain. Sadly, not true. These guys have all played soccer before. Last year even.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 06, 2015, 04:37:03 PM
HeroSports.com (formerly Bennett Rankings)
BR Team SOS HEAT
1 Haverford...............15 89
2 Kenyon..................109 88
3 Calvin....................122 89
4 St. Lawrence...........30 99
5 Loras......................18 80
6 Franklin & Marshall..101 47
7 Montclair State........26 77
8 Rowan....................22 92
9 Thomas More..........155 92
10 Oneonta State.........33 91
11 Messiah..................56 86
12 Amherst.................37 53
13 Middlebury..............37 99
14 Lycoming................125 93
15 Cortland State.........109 93
16 Ohio Wesleyan.........77 73
17 UW Oshkosh............75 65
18 Wheaton (IL)..........104 99
19 Trinity (TX).............256 99
20 Tufts........................3 51
21 Bowdoin..................21 90
22 UW Whitewater........74 73
23 Plattsburgh State....104 56
24 North Park...............82 48
25 Stevens...................97 46
26 MIT.......................119 91
27 Dickinson.................31 77
28 Richard Stockton.......24 59
29 Case Western...........53 46
30 Williams....................1 66
31 Elizabethtown..........142 77
32 Whitworth...............215 83
33 Brockport State.......134 87
34 Wesleyan (CT)..........17 36
35 Brandeis..................11 70
36 RPI.........................28 57
37 MSOE....................199 100
38 Wash U....................53 78
39 Carnegie Mellon........76 71
40 Hobart.....................95 91
41 Kean......................103 8
42 Chicago....................12 60
43 Rutgers-Camden........14 51
44 Rochester .................18 47
45 Skidmore.................108 32
46 MA-Boston...............206 60
47 Macalester................97 95
48 Occidental...............162 80
49 DePauw..................125 60
50 Vassar....................107 46
What is the value of including these rankings? As mentioned in posts time and time again on different threads they are quite clearly flawed; enough already.
It's just data. What's the value of you feeling it necessary to comment negatively about it. Go troll elsewhere...
Eyeball test on the herosports top 20 looks fairly spot on to me... I'd only move Rowan, Messiah, Lycoming, and Cortland St further down the list
Agreed Hero Sports is actually not a bad Top 20 just needs a little shuffling. Williams #1 SOS and Tufts #3 SOS, just out of curiosity I do not see who was #2 as they are not in the Top 50 ?
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 07, 2015, 10:08:17 AM
Agreed Hero Sports is actually not a bad Top 20 just needs a little shuffling. Williams #1 SOS and Tufts #3 SOS, just out of curiosity I do not see who was #2 as they are not in the Top 50 ?
I don't know who HeroSports has as #2 in strength of schedule, but Massey has the same #1 and #3 and Wesleyan CT as #2. In fact, 12 of the top 13 are NESCAC teams.
Strength of schedule in soccer is determined about 90% by what conference you are in. Amherst's non-conference strength of schedule is way weaker than Calvin's.
Female announcer at Haverford is outstanding. Very knowledgeable. Hopkins just tied it 1-1.
Ambidextrous Corkery with great free kick. 2-1. Hopkins never got out of won end after GK plays short and out to to his D. Once in a while you have to relieve pressure. Haverford looks great. For a bunch of smart guys JHU playing really dumb and making really poor decisions.
3-1. Game over. See ya Hopkins.
Love Haverford (as a school). Well-done half-time advertisement for the college and being an athlete there.
I've tried streaming live games on samsung smart tv with no luck. Is just the chromecast hookup needed?
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 07, 2015, 12:10:34 PM
I've tried streaming live games on samsung smart tv with no luck. Is just the chromecast hookup needed?
I dont have a smart tv(yet) but my chromecast always works just fine
Did you try inputting a laptop into TV and then changing source on TV to an auxiliary option? I use a chromebook and then once hooked into TV work right off the laptop.
W&L finally with breathing room against Virg Wesleyan....up 3-1.
Haverford is the real deal.. 4-1. Changing to another channel for device #3.
Last time I saw Haverford they were playing some nice futbol on the ground and had some technical players that were skilled. I do not remember the backs or GK. Do they have size?
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 07, 2015, 12:38:47 PM
Last time I saw Haverford they were playing some nice futbol on the ground and had some technical players that were skilled. I do not remember the backs or GK. Do they have size?
GK looks solid. I haven't watched them much. The Seitz twins are tall. Corkery really solidly built but not a big kid.
Horrible PK for Kenyon. Ohio Wesleyan's GK read the kids hip before he even struck it
With all the upsets that most of us predicted might happen. A couple teams that might need to be worried are Plattsburgh St, Tufts, MSOE and Lycoming.
Projected byes: Calvin Kenyon and MSU or Brandeis.
Lycoming won't have to worry, though, if they are able to maintain their current 1-0 first half lead over Messiah.
MSOE off the bubble with their victory over Dominican and they snag the AQ
Lycoming live stream back up and hold a 1-0 lead over Messiah with about 30 minutes left. Is it possible Messiah fails to make the NCAA for the 1st time since I believe 1997 but that would be a guess
Wash U up 2-0 over U Chicago in 1st Half. If that holds up U Chicago's faint NCAA hopes would be definitely squashed
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 07, 2015, 02:56:14 PM
Projected byes: Calvin Kenyon and MSU or Brandeis.
There are only 3 Bye's I believe.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 07, 2015, 03:37:46 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 07, 2015, 02:56:14 PM
Projected byes: Calvin Kenyon and MSU or Brandeis.
There are only 3 Bye's I believe.
That's why he only picked three teams :)
You are correct I did not see the "or"
Rose-Hulman takes HCAC AQ in PKs.
And Methodist upsets Greensboro (mild upset).
When was the last time Messiah missed out on the NCAA's?
When was the last time Messiah had 5+ losses?
When was the last time Messiah lost to the same team in the same year?
I am not trying to be negative but am just curious about these questions because if they had better GK'ing against CMU and Rowan and won those games, with their SOS they would have gotten a Pool C.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 07, 2015, 06:39:34 PM
When was the last time Messiah missed out on the NCAA's?
When was the last time Messiah had 5+ losses?
When was the last time Messiah lost to the same team in the same year?
I am not trying to be negative but am just curious about these questions because if they had better GK'ing against CMU and Rowan and won those games, with their SOS they would have gotten a Pool C.
To add to the thread of anomalies, this is the first time that Dr. Jay Martin has lost twice in one season to the same team (Kenyon.) That said, sounds like OWU was hard done by, and I really hope there is video of that game.
That was the 1st time in Jay Martin's career that he lost to the same team twice in one year? If that is true that is very impressive.
Quote from: blooter442 on November 07, 2015, 06:42:17 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 07, 2015, 06:39:34 PM
When was the last time Messiah missed out on the NCAA's?
When was the last time Messiah had 5+ losses?
When was the last time Messiah lost to the same team in the same year?
I am not trying to be negative but am just curious about these questions because if they had better GK'ing against CMU and Rowan and won those games, with their SOS they would have gotten a Pool C.
To add to the thread of anomalies, this is the first time that Dr. Jay Martin has lost twice in one season to the same team (Kenyon.) That said, sounds like OWU was hard done by, and I really hope there is video of that game.
Bloots, I'll have to disagree a little there. Perhaps if only looking at that one play (and I'm as curious to see it as anyone), but if Kenyon had lost that game being up 2-0 with 60 secs left and given the totality of the game that would have felt hard-done by. OWU wasn't pelting the goal by any stretch in the last 15 minutes, and the Lords outshot them in both halves.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 07, 2015, 06:44:02 PM
That was the 1st time in Jay Martin's career that he lost to the same team twice in one year? If that is true that is very impressive.
Don't know how I managed to remember this, but:
Quote from: Ryan Harmanis on November 19, 2014, 11:05:23 PM
I refuse to either tempt fate by jinxing OWU or pick against them, but I think Christopher Newport falls to the winner of OWU/Kenyon. CNU is really talented, but they've been crazy inconsistent and playing four straight quality opponents might be too much for them. Fun fact: not to to bury the lead for my preview, but Ohio Wesleyan has never - I'll repeat, never - lost to the same team twice in one season under Jay Martin.
For the other sections, I'll take Oneonta, Wheaton and Messiah.
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 07, 2015, 06:54:53 PM
Bloots, I'll have to disagree a little there. Perhaps if only looking at that one play (and I'm as curious to see it as anyone), but if Kenyon had lost that game being up 2-0 with 60 secs left and given the totality of the game that would have felt hard-done by. OWU wasn't pelting the goal by any stretch in the last 15 minutes, and the Lords outshot them in both halves.
Definitely a fair point - I was only referencing that one play. From what it sounded like, Kenyon was the better side on the day, so you're right, but when you lose in the last two seconds in a conference final on a PK then that's rough. That said, I 100 percent agree that had Kenyon had failed to win after giving up two goals in the last minute they would have a right to feel robbed.
And here is a pretty good look....may have to watch it 2-3 times. Play comes right after 1:15 in the video. Other goals, including for OWU are in it. Looks like a pretty clear-cut foul in the box to me....and you can't not call it just because 3 secs are left.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cTeEDVF5_M
If this is Montclair St's video feed I am hoping they are not hosting to the Final 4
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 07, 2015, 07:29:39 PM
And here is a pretty good look....may have to watch it 2-3 times. Play comes right after 1:15 in the video. Other goals, including for OWU are in it. Looks like a pretty clear-cut foul in the box to me....and you can't not call it just because 3 secs are left.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cTeEDVF5_M
Nice strike by Amolo but I cannot believe with 2 seconds left that OWU defender would slide tackle that Kenyon player in the box. Really bonehead play in my view because the way it looked there is no way he would have gotten that shot off before the buzzer. You must know the situation and if this ref had called a PK earlier than he would do it again. NEVER leave your feet and slide tackle a guy like that in the box. Bonehead play
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 07, 2015, 07:29:39 PM
And here is a pretty good look....may have to watch it 2-3 times. Play comes right after 1:15 in the video. Other goals, including for OWU are in it. Looks like a pretty clear-cut foul in the box to me....and you can't not call it just because 3 secs are left.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cTeEDVF5_M
Yup, definite penalty.
Great pen by Barnes, that's a fantastic shot in that situation. I've seen tons of kickers either flub the kick or go on the ground, so the fact that he went top corner and got it was very impressive.
Do we have any idea of the time the selection show is on Monday? usually it's at 1pm but just wondering
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 07, 2015, 07:47:41 PM
Do we have any idea of the time the selection show is on Monday? usually it's at 1pm but just wondering
Think I heard that women are 1, men 1:30.
Scranton knocks off E'town.
RUC and MSU really heating up. A GK just made a huge save. Is MSU in white?
Yeah ETOWN most likely is OUT as Dickinson will jump them in the rankings. I think Dickinson still needs to get the AQ tomorrow against Haverford unless they tie / lose in PK's. I think they would get in with that result
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 07, 2015, 07:55:33 PM
RUC and MSU really heating up. A GK just made a huge save. Is MSU in white?
Yes...at least I think so because the home side usually wears whote
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 07, 2015, 07:57:21 PM
Yes...at least I think so because the home side usually wears whote
I never know what to think, because a ton of UAA games involve the home team wearing their away jerseys because of a clash with their visiting opponents. White is reserved for home, but when there's a clash of some sort it is on the home team to change their kit I believe.
Well also the UAA the home team would wear white on Friday but then dark on Sunday because of the travelling situation
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 07, 2015, 07:57:21 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 07, 2015, 07:55:33 PM
RUC and MSU really heating up. A GK just made a huge save. Is MSU in white?
Yes...at least I think so because the home side usually wears whote
Yeah, today Kenyon was dark and OWU white.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 07, 2015, 08:04:45 PM
Well also the UAA the home team would wear white on Friday but then dark on Sunday because of the travelling situation
Mind. Blown.
In other news: this Rutgers-Camden vs. MSU game video feed could not be worse. A good game, though. Chippy.
Quote from: blooter442 on November 07, 2015, 08:12:39 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 07, 2015, 08:04:45 PM
Well also the UAA the home team would wear white on Friday but then dark on Sunday because of the travelling situation
Mind. Blown.
In other news: this Rutgers-Camden vs. MSU game video feed could not be worse. A good game, though. Chippy.
That cracked me up. I like that....Mind. Blown.
OMG. How did he miss that?
Now they're even. RUC (I think) just barely missed. Great game.
tough angle..I thought he did well and that would of been a helluva way to finish this game off.
And we go to pens...in standard (a.k.a. definitely sub-standard) definition.
Lets hope the PK's are down at the goal below the camera or we will not be able to see the ball unless they zoom in...Fitting end to a great day in D3 Soccer.
Quote from: blooter442 on November 07, 2015, 08:31:45 PM
And we go to pens...in standard (a.k.a. definitely sub-standard) definition.
There is an HD button at the bottom. Put it on 720.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 07, 2015, 08:34:36 PM
Lets hope the PK's are down at the goal below the camera or we will not be able to see the ball unless they zoom in...Fitting end to a great day in D3 Soccer.
Was just thinking the same thing. Hopefully (though not actually going to happen) the refs will take pity on us and mandate it is under the camera.
LOL, I still don't know which team is which.
RUC - red. MSU - white
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaand the camera just went out in the middle of the shootout...
...is now back
OK, thx....and Ryan misses.
Really? Is that red? It looks like Black to me.
What a strike by Camden's 4th kicker..bullet
3-3 after four
MSU to clinch...and MISS!
RUC off post on fifth kick. MSU can't take advantage.
4-4 after six
I would not want to face either side in a shootout...
5-4 RUC wins.
You said RUC was white....
Shucks! Now we'll never know if the committee would have selected a 7-loss team!
There goes another at-large bid!
Im lost but I trust FW...What a end of season run by Camden...Good luck facing them in a RD64 / RD32
Two very good teams. MSU I thought looked extremely good. Like national title kind of good.
Mr. R, re-read my post on the team colors.
And John Carroll is John Carrolling Ohio Northern. 2-0 in 80th.
I thought the White team had more chances...I think whoever draws Camden will be in for early test. You know they are going to send a 7 loss side up against a top team right away. Knowing SLU's luck it will be them up in Canton, NY
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 07, 2015, 08:48:48 PM
Shucks! Now we'll never know if the committee would have selected a 7-loss team!
I am going to assume that you are joking, and that RUC's only hope was to win the NJAC, but I have shown before that I don't know everything. The Internet can be a bad purveyor of humor.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 07, 2015, 08:52:32 PM
I thought the White team had more chances...I think whoever draws Camden will be in for early test. You know they are going to send a 7 loss side up against a top team right away. Knowing SLU's luck it will be them up in Canton, NY
LOL. SLU just can't catch a break.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 07, 2015, 08:52:32 PM
I thought the White team had more chances...I think whoever draws Camden will be in for early test. You know they are going to send a 7 loss side up against a top team right away. Knowing SLU's luck it will be them up in Canton, NY
Agree. Mr.Right, I think MSU kid who missed for the win was same kid who made that nice play and missed on tough angle. MSU is outstanding. RUC very good. Both will be tough to be beat, especially for anyone not used to that style and intensity.
I'll be the first to say I had no idea which team was which color until the end of the game but I am happy for LGOTB and Camden.
Great game by keeper for Camden.
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 07, 2015, 08:55:03 PM
Agree. Mr.Right, I think MSU kid who missed for the win was same kid who made that nice play and missed on tough angle. MSU is outstanding. RUC very good. Both will be tough to be beat, especially for anyone not used to that style and intensity.
Those Jersey teams...it's in the water!
But actually, MSU and RUC could very well make deep tournament runs. The intensity is definitely up there, with the NJAC games that I've seen. RUC was on the back foot but really impressive, MSU impressive as well. A great 0-0 game.
Who's with me for Puget Sound and Pac Lutheran in the prime time game? Also the La Verne vs Redlands could be of interest for Pool C hopefuls.
We need an immediate list of our 5 serious BUBBLE teams and maybe a LAST 4 IN and FIRST 4 OUT
CMU @ Case yet another 0-0 affair midway thru 2nd.
Buffalo Wild Wings throwing a special after the Case game in Cleveland....just announced.
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 07, 2015, 08:56:36 PM
Who's with me for Puget Sound and Pac Lutheran in the prime time game? Also the La Verne vs Redlands could be of interest for Pool C hopefuls.
I would NCAC but I gotta go get some dinner and a drink or 2...We will see you all tomorrow..Someone get that Bubble list going with maybe 5 teams and the LAST 4 IN and FIRST 4 OUT
Next week-end is the Christmas for D3 Soccer. RD 64 / 32 Games all DAY and NIGHT with NCAA passion and intensity.
Also,
Maybe a list of the 5 Hottest teams in the country right now, not the most talented sides but the sides who are playing really well going into the NCAA's.
I gotta say In no particular order:
Oneonta St
Haverford
RUC
Kenyon
Lycoming
Trinity TX
Amherst, Montclair, Wheaton (Ill), F&M, Macalester, Trinity/Colorado Coll, Brockport/Plattsburgh, Middlebury, OWU, CMU, Wash U???, Rowan
That's 12, and doesn't include UW-W....
Then you have Brockport/Platts (again), Bowdoin/Tufts, Stockton???, Chicago???, E'town?, Dickinson/Haverford, Pac Luth, DePauw, TMC....MIT still hanging out there.
Other names that have been mentioned.....RPI, North Park, Redlands (if needed), St Johns?, Messiah, Hobart, CNU, Rut-Newark, UW-Osh, Hopkins
Haverford, MSU, and Oneonta all very hot. Wheaton (Ill) was very hot until a PK loss. And Loras is peaking at right time.
LOL I try to narrow are lists as best I could and NCAC always adds like 10 teams to confuse us even more..Narrow that down
Oh I see what you did you were getting all the Pool C's together but we all kind of can guess about 8-10 CERTAIN Pool C's, we need a DEFINITE BUBBLE list of 7 teams at the most. LGOTB and NCAC are always good at this stuff and it is helpful. Maybe Offpitch can keep the standings of that as well...LOL j/k
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 07, 2015, 09:11:09 PM
LOL I try to narrow ar elists as best I could and NCAC always adds like 10 teams to confuse us even more..Narrow that down
Well, I think there are more spots than some have been thinking. Got to get to 18, and there are very few absolute LOCKS like Amherst and Montclair. MSOE winning helped. Calvin winning helped. Lycoming winning helped somebody.
IMHO, bubble teams are DePauw, TMC, E'town, Rowan or Stockton, Bowdoin/Tufts, Plattsburgh or Brockpt, Dickinson if they lose
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 07, 2015, 09:15:12 PM
Oh I see what you did you were getting all the Pool C's together but we all kind of can guess about 8-10 CERTAIN Pool C's, we need a DEFINITE BUBBLE list of 7 teams at the most. LGOTB and NCAC are always good at this stuff and it is helpful. Maybe Offpitch can keep the standings of that as well...LOL j/k
If you give me the 8-10 definites (I can't name that many) I'll give you the 7-8 bubbles.
No you are correct that list is a good start. I truly believe Tufts / Stockton / Etown / Plattsburgh are all sitting on the bubble more than others.
For example, in the UAA, all we know for sure is Brandeis. Is Wash U still a lock after today? What if CMU loses to Case right now? Is Chicago in after beating Wash U? Do 3 Pool Cs go to UAA?
Case and Carnegie still deadlocked at 0-0 late in the second half...the UAA must have more conference games end regulation (and overtime) 0-0 than any other conference...unlike conferences w/a tournament every UAA game counts
big, so teams know that if they can't win that it's even more important not to lose.
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 07, 2015, 09:19:41 PM
For example, in the UAA, all we know for sure is Brandeis. Is Wash U still a lock after today? What if CMU loses to Case right now? Is Chicago in after beating Wash U? Do 3 Pool Cs go to UAA?
I think WashU is in, and I believe Carnegie will definitely be in if they don't lose. Skeptical there'll be three Pool Cs, but with Chicago winning it's possible.
Even if Carnegie does lose, I think they're still in a good position. A Case fan just jinxed his team by screaming "YES!" before the header hit the back of the net - it drifted wide.
In other news, the Case fans have made #8 on Carnegie (Friedlander, who I really like as a player) their target for insults tonight. It's all in good fun, but they're blaming "Number 8" for everything. Quite humorous to hear the whole thing.
Bubbles at this point want MIT, Redlands, Bowdoin to win AQs and maybe W&L just to be on safe side. Also hard to know if we'll get a surprise out of the CNU/RPI/North Park/Denison/Messiah/Endicott/ECSU group....like some team that isn't even on your board anymore. And I'm gonna bet that E'town has a bid. And are we absolutely positive that a team unranked this week can't get in, like Hobart, Ohio Northern, Concordia (Wis)?
Case wins it with 2:01 left in 2OT. Failed clear off a free kick that pinballed around and #4 hit a dipping volley from about 15 yards out into the far corner. Really nice goal, and thought that Case probably deserved the victory.
Carnegie will have to sweat, but as I said before I think they'll be fine. But this year, who knows?
Case Athletics site says that it was a "header off a deflection." Maybe my eyesight isn't 20/20? I'll believe that they were sitting at the wrong angle, because it looked like a darn good strike to me, and I saw no header.
Case finally catches a break after losing two heartbreakers in OT to Wash U and Chicago.
Case, btw, is 13-4-1, probably with a SoS around .535ish and 1-4-1 RvR (lost two because Emory and Rochester dropped out of rankings).
CMU likely still safe but probably good news for OWU as OWU may well jump CMU. I would hate to be on the cmte deciding how to place CMU, DePauw and TMC, and sitting there as the chair (Case coach) knowing his team is good enough to be right there as well.
Pac Luth falling off bubble on wrong side. Losing 2-1 under 10 min to Puget Sound.
Pac Luth lost 2-1.
Redlands losing 1-0 in 65th minute.
Who's getting the bye with this group?
With MSU tie, does Haverford have a shot for a bye with win vs Dickinson?
Brandeis, Amherst, Kenyon, Trinity my favorites.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 07, 2015, 09:04:52 PM
Also,
Maybe a list of the 5 Hottest teams in the country right now, not the most talented sides but the sides who are playing really well going into the NCAA's.
I gotta say In no particular order:
Oneonta St
Haverford
RUC
Kenyon
Lycoming
Trinity TX
Redlands wins 2-1.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 07, 2015, 09:04:52 PM
Also,
Maybe a list of the 5 Hottest teams in the country right now, not the most talented sides but the sides who are playing really well going into the NCAA's.
I gotta say In no particular order:
Oneonta St
Haverford
RUC
Kenyon
Lycoming
Trinity TX
Does a 40-game undefeated streak / 20 game win streak and an average score of 4 to 0.1 in the last 10 games count as 'hot'?
Yes...Throw them in there
Here's the actual game video from the last 90 secs OWU-Kenyon....really unbelievable when you think about all the different things that had to happen (and go wrong....and right) for both teams.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmw8eudQV2A
Watching the other video last night and now this one I think Barnes for OWU actually made a smart play. Glassman was in and had plenty of time...more than 5 secs as he broke deep in the box. Now he might have missed wide or hit it over but he was in and he had enough time to finish the play. Glassman made a nice play with a chest trap pass to himself and into the open channel. Kenyon's Barnes was right there running parallel with him.
Congrats to W&L. Going through the ODAC unbeaten and then having to win 3 more games to get a bid is impressive. Really glad they pulled through.
That Corkery kid for Haverford is unreal. Two perfect free kicks 2 days in a row, and today with 20 secs left to give Haverford the Centennial title.
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 08, 2015, 03:04:24 PM
That Corkery kid for Haverford is unreal. Two perfect free kicks 2 days in a row, and today with 20 secs left to give Haverford the Centennial title.
That really was a gorgeous free kick today to eliminate Dickinson 1-0 in the Centennial final with just seconds left. I tuned in late, but the game looked very even for the last 15-20 mins and seemed that the 0-0 score through 89' was reflective of the game. Noticed that Dickinson actually outshot the Fords at home, which was a little surprising. Tough loss for Dickinson, but looked to be a well played game.
MIT just goes up 1-0 on Babson w/ 14' left in 2H. Nice goal by Bingham
Update: Babson ties it up 1-1 with 7:30' left on corner by Araujo to a header by Carlos into goal.
Update 2: Less than a minute later--Babson goes up 2-1 w/ 6 left.
2-1 Babson Final
Somebody's bubble just burst
Trinity 1-0 Colorado College on a PK in the opening stanza.
Haverford's game winning free kick against Dickinson :) https://instagram.com/p/91zaSNwWzE/
Well done son.. take a bow!
That is an insanely well taken free kick.
Quote from: jknezek on November 08, 2015, 06:14:10 PM
That is an insanely well taken free kick.
Not positive but I think he scored one yesterday from around the same distance with his left foot. Takes in-swinging corners that he almost puts from each side with both feet.
FWIW, we have Part II of our Men's at-large berth analysis and predictions (http://www.d3soccer.com/columns/christan-shirk/2015/at-large-analysis-and-predictions) column up on D3soccer.com that includes the color-coded regional rankings table with updated records/win pct., strength of schedules (approximated), and records versus ranked teams.
If you find any errors, please let me know. We have tried to be 100% accurate, but it is a lot of data to deal with.
We hope and currently expect to have our predictions posted yet tonight.
Quote from: jknezek on November 08, 2015, 06:14:10 PM
That is an insanely well taken free kick.
I agree it's a great free kick but how disorganized was Dickinson. Even the keeper didn't seem ready.
Lastguys end of season top 25
1. Haverford
2. Brandeis
3. Oneonta St
4. Amherst
5. MSU
6. Calvin
7. Kenyon
8. Trinity
9. Loras
10. SLU
11. Middlebury
12. UWW
13. Lycoming
14. Washington
15. CMU
16. F&M
17. Rutgers-Camden
18. Tufts
19. Wheaton IL
20. Bowdoin
21. Plattsburgh St
23. Dickinson
24. Whitworth
25. OWU/Rowan
RV: MIT, ECSU, Etown, Eastern, Stevens Tech, Stockton, Macalester
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 08, 2015, 01:09:57 PM
Here's the actual game video from the last 90 secs OWU-Kenyon....really unbelievable when you think about all the different things that had to happen (and go wrong....and right) for both teams.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmw8eudQV2A
Watching the other video last night and now this one I think Barnes for OWU actually made a smart play. Glassman was in and had plenty of time...more than 5 secs as he broke deep in the box. Now he might have missed wide or hit it over but he was in and he had enough time to finish the play. Glassman made a nice play with a chest trap pass to himself and into the open channel. Kenyon's Barnes was right there running parallel with him.
Did you have the Xanax handy, NCAC? If there was any time for it, it was then! ;)
Quote from: blooter442 on November 09, 2015, 12:50:04 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 08, 2015, 01:09:57 PM
Here's the actual game video from the last 90 secs OWU-Kenyon....really unbelievable when you think about all the different things that had to happen (and go wrong....and right) for both teams.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmw8eudQV2A
Watching the other video last night and now this one I think Barnes for OWU actually made a smart play. Glassman was in and had plenty of time...more than 5 secs as he broke deep in the box. Now he might have missed wide or hit it over but he was in and he had enough time to finish the play. Glassman made a nice play with a chest trap pass to himself and into the open channel. Kenyon's Barnes was right there running parallel with him.
Did you have the Xanax handy, NCAC? If there was any time for it, it was then! ;)
Or.... some of Tennessee Jed's Hooch!
Quote from: Brother Flounder on November 09, 2015, 12:54:03 PM
Quote from: blooter442 on November 09, 2015, 12:50:04 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 08, 2015, 01:09:57 PM
Here's the actual game video from the last 90 secs OWU-Kenyon....really unbelievable when you think about all the different things that had to happen (and go wrong....and right) for both teams.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmw8eudQV2A
Watching the other video last night and now this one I think Barnes for OWU actually made a smart play. Glassman was in and had plenty of time...more than 5 secs as he broke deep in the box. Now he might have missed wide or hit it over but he was in and he had enough time to finish the play. Glassman made a nice play with a chest trap pass to himself and into the open channel. Kenyon's Barnes was right there running parallel with him.
I would have gladly split my own requirements w/ NCACNE (or any other Kenyon fan... :)), but I can assure you there was not enough left to spare after that...
Did you have the Xanax handy, NCAC? If there was any time for it, it was then! ;)
Or.... some of Tennessee Jed's Hooch!
POOL B AT-LARGE BERTH - 1 Berth
UW-Whitewater
POOL C AT-LARGE BERTHS - 18 Berths
Amherst
Carnegie Mellon
Chicago
DePauw
Dickinson
Franklin and Marshall
Macalester
MIT
Montclair State
Ohio Wesleyan
Plattsburgh State
Rowan
RPI
Thomas More
Tufts
UW-Oshkosh
Washington U.
Wheaton (Ill.)
Trinity (TX) hosting both men and women this weekend - six games on a pitch that has seen a good deal of rain the last two weeks. Fortunately things should dry out this week with very little chance of rain before Sunday (30%).
RPI and Oshkosh are surprises. Etown not getting in is not a surprise but Midd missing out is a surprise.
Also, DePauw.
Any sentimentality with the UW-Oshkosh pick?
RPI? Let the debate rage on!
RPI and Plattsburgh getting in over Brockport?!
I am a Liberty League fan but RPI over Hobart, and their moving up 3 spots in the NCAA regional rankings the week after they lost at home to Vassar and were eliminated from the conference tournament, just reeks of undue influence. It is not like their comeback win in their final game was against a quality team, and their 1-0 loss to Williams in hindsight looks far worse given Williams year-end fall. The NCAA took a seventh place team from a conference--when has that ever happened?
I have to say I'm shocked Etown didn't get in...yet they take Dickinson...who ETOWN BEAT, and even beyond that there are other teams that got taken who have worse records then Etown and worse stats. Granted their SOS was low but every other stat was solid. Guess the Mid Atlantic committee of coaches were out to make sure Etown didn't get in - and can figure that based on who is on that committee. You go 17-2-1 and your only losses are to F&M and then the conference final 3-2 after running the table all year - guess that isn't a good enough season to qualify for the NCAA tourney.
Good luck to everyone who got selected.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 09, 2015, 01:46:05 PM
Any sentimentality with the UW-Oshkosh pick?
RPI? Let the debate rage on!
I would say more than likely, but I'm not complaining! Hopefully they can do something with this "new life" so to speak. Would be very disappointing to see them go one and done.
So does Methodist win the "longest bus ride" award? W&L and Methodist travelling to Haverford. That's 454 miles on TES, a little longer on Google, for Methodist.
How on earth does Loras get a bye???
Loras got a "bye" to the Final 4
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 09, 2015, 02:19:54 PM
Loras got a "bye" to the Final 4
Agree! Amherst with bye to Elite 8. Oneonta with next easiest. Winner of Haverford-SLU sitting pretty. I like OWU's draw to the Elite 8. No one there they can't handle and get Calvin most likely on own field.
Not sure if Rowan will any games in the tournament this year but they are a very young team that can take this experience and be serious contenders the next 2 years. I think they need to add a goalscorer but lots of the pieces are there.
Would of liked to see Stockton make the tournament and have 4 NJAC schools but the back to back losses to Rutgers Camden destroyed their chances. Nice to see the new coach there making them contenders again along with Kean, Rowan, Montclair, Rutgers Camden and Newark, there are some strong programs in the NJAC.
Quote from: Brother Flounder on November 09, 2015, 12:54:03 PM
Quote from: blooter442 on November 09, 2015, 12:50:04 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 08, 2015, 01:09:57 PM
Here's the actual game video from the last 90 secs OWU-Kenyon....really unbelievable when you think about all the different things that had to happen (and go wrong....and right) for both teams.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmw8eudQV2A
Watching the other video last night and now this one I think Barnes for OWU actually made a smart play. Glassman was in and had plenty of time...more than 5 secs as he broke deep in the box. Now he might have missed wide or hit it over but he was in and he had enough time to finish the play. Glassman made a nice play with a chest trap pass to himself and into the open channel. Kenyon's Barnes was right there running parallel with him.
Did you have the Xanax handy, NCAC? If there was any time for it, it was then! ;)
Or.... some of Tennessee Jed's Hooch!
What was OWU's GK thinking with distributing the ball to the RB with 10 seconds to go? Just delay a second or two more and punt that down the field.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 09, 2015, 02:19:54 PM
Loras got a "bye" to the Final 4
You keep saying this, but it makes absolutely ZERO sense.
They have 4, count them, FOUR losses this year. Not exactly an unbeatable team.
One of which was a 2-0 loss to a team in their pod.
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 09, 2015, 02:23:36 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 09, 2015, 02:19:54 PM
Loras got a "bye" to the Final 4
Agree! Amherst with bye to Elite 8. Oneonta with next easiest. Winner of Haverford-SLU sitting pretty. I like OWU's draw to the Elite 8. No one there they can't handle and get Calvin most likely on own field.
OWU? Their history is get to final 4 or get upset in the first two rounds. I'm thinking they are unlikely to advance from their pod this year.
Quote from: wingtips2 on November 10, 2015, 08:44:40 AM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 09, 2015, 02:19:54 PM
Loras got a "bye" to the Final 4
You keep saying this, but it makes absolutely ZERO sense.
They have 4, count them, FOUR losses this year. Not exactly an unbeatable team.
One of which was a 2-0 loss to a team in their pod.
Their pod is weak...WEAK...one more time for you WEAK
If Loras survives ONU they have a cake walk. Their toughest game will be ONU until they reach the final 4.
Is there a final regular season D3Soccer National Poll that comes out today or was last week the last one?
http://herosports.herosports.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/d3-mens-soccer-2015-ncaa-tournament-bracket-predictions.pdf
Herosports should be holding a bracketology contest again this season. Good to see the computer picked zero upsets.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 10, 2015, 09:34:24 AM
Herosports should be holding a bracketology contest again this season. Good to see the computer picked zero upsets.
Did they do something for last year's tournament? I do not remember.
Babson is the sleeper pick of the tournament. Not saying I am going to pick them...but I can see them making it to the Sweet 16.
Babson is NOT A good team this year. They are anemic offensively and if F&M is any good they should dispatch of Babson. Babson will also SIT DEEP and are athlrtic enough to frustrate teams but they cannot score goals. They WILL NOT BE IN THE SWEET 16
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 10, 2015, 09:56:44 AM
Babson is NOT A good team this year. They are anemic offensively and if F&M is any good they should dispatch of Babson. Babson will also SIT DEEP and are athlrtic enough to frustrate teams but they cannot score goals. They WILL NOT BE IN THE SWEET 16
I agree with that assessment but looking at who they are against I can see F&M laying an egg as usual and Gordon knocking off CMU (who I still believe is underrated) then Babson sneaking by Gordon before getting thrashed by OWU. That's how I would see it playing out. Doubt it will but it's a possibility...deep deep sleeper pick 8-)
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on November 10, 2015, 09:24:22 AM
http://herosports.herosports.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/d3-mens-soccer-2015-ncaa-tournament-bracket-predictions.pdf
#18 - Trinity TX
#37 - Brandeis
#43 - Carnegie
#60 - DePauw
these rankings seem legit.......... ???
Quote from: wingtips2 on November 10, 2015, 08:46:16 AM
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 09, 2015, 02:23:36 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 09, 2015, 02:19:54 PM
Loras got a "bye" to the Final 4
Agree! Amherst with bye to Elite 8. Oneonta with next easiest. Winner of Haverford-SLU sitting pretty. I like OWU's draw to the Elite 8. No one there they can't handle and get Calvin most likely on own field.
OWU? Their history is get to final 4 or get upset in the first two rounds. I'm thinking they are unlikely to advance from their pod this year.
Without commenting on the likelihood of OWU getting out of this weekend, this is pretty accurate. In the past ten seasons, OWU has made it through the first weekend 50% of the time (5/10) but the second weekend 60% of the time (3/5). That includes three losses in the first weekend when OWU was a top-five team (2005, 2009, 2013).
The one thing I will say is that the teams coming to OWU this weekend are not in the mold of teams OWU has normally fallen to on the opening weekend. The opening weekend losses since 2005 were to Transylvania (x2), Rose-Hulman, Centre, and Calvin. I have a feeling that MSOE and this year's undefeated Calvin (assuming they win) aren't coming to town to pack it in and hope for a counter-attack goal. Again, no comment on what I expect to happen, but I think these teams will play straight-up.
On that note, I think the OWU-MSOE game should be great, as both teams really like to attack. Same goes for the winner against Calvin. Should be plenty of scoring.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 10, 2015, 09:56:44 AM
Babson is NOT A good team this year. They are anemic offensively and if F&M is any good they should dispatch of Babson. Babson will also SIT DEEP and are athlrtic enough to frustrate teams but they cannot score goals. They WILL NOT BE IN THE SWEET 16
I agree. They'll sit deep, but they're the same team that conceded
seven goals at home against Williams. They made a statement by beating MIT in the NEWMAC final, but they are way too hot and cold to put together any sort of sustained run IMHO.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 10, 2015, 09:16:19 AM
Quote from: wingtips2 on November 10, 2015, 08:44:40 AM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 09, 2015, 02:19:54 PM
Loras got a "bye" to the Final 4
You keep saying this, but it makes absolutely ZERO sense.
They have 4, count them, FOUR losses this year. Not exactly an unbeatable team.
One of which was a 2-0 loss to a team in their pod.
Their pod is weak...WEAK...one more time for you WEAK
Wingtips they actually only have 3 losses (the fourth was to Western Illinois who is D1) but I agree, this is not the Loras of past years. However, that doesn't mean they won't turn it up a notch now that it's playoff time. They're the type of team that can certainly do that.
Mr. Right you are correct about the pod being weak comparatively, and they do have what appears to be the easiest route to the Final 4, but it is by no means a bye. Loras could potentially meet 2 of the 3 teams they lost to during the regular season (their loss to UWW was in the Rock Bowl) again before the Final 4. I'd still put my money on Loras having the best chance to reach the Final 4, but I think it'll be more of a challenge than you make it out to be.
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on November 10, 2015, 09:21:54 AM
If Loras survives ONU they have a cake walk. Their toughest game will be ONU until they reach the final 4.
A cake walk?
You're talking about a team that lost to a very average St Thomas team a couple weeks ago.
And has potential match ups with 2 - yes, TWO - teams that have already beaten the corn fed boys.
Loras being given a top seed and a bye is almost as big a travesty as RPIbeing selected.
This is a pretty good team, not the 'unbeatable' duhawks of years past.
Thta is precisely why in my odds section I rated UWW very highly at 12/1 because it is very possible they can beat Loras.
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on November 10, 2015, 09:23:29 AM
Is there a final regular season D3Soccer National Poll that comes out today or was last week the last one?
I was wondering the same thing MAF. Ryan any info on this?
Quote from: blooter442 on November 10, 2015, 10:44:47 AM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 10, 2015, 09:56:44 AM
Babson is NOT A good team this year. They are anemic offensively and if F&M is any good they should dispatch of Babson. Babson will also SIT DEEP and are athlrtic enough to frustrate teams but they cannot score goals. They WILL NOT BE IN THE SWEET 16
I agree. They'll sit deep, but they're the same team that conceded seven goals at home against Williams. They made a statement by beating MIT in the NEWMAC final, but they are way too hot and cold to put together any sort of sustained run IMHO.
I agree. Without Anderson up top they have not been able to score goals in a couple years. However, depending on the day they can sit deep and frustrate and snag 1 goal. 2014 they beat Williams 1-0 and had maybe 2 SOG. Depends on the day.
Quote from: wingtips2 on November 10, 2015, 10:50:19 AM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on November 10, 2015, 09:21:54 AM
If Loras survives ONU they have a cake walk. Their toughest game will be ONU until they reach the final 4.
A cake walk?
You're talking about a team that lost to a very average St Thomas team a couple weeks ago.
And has potential match ups with 2 - yes, TWO - teams that have already beaten the corn fed boys.
Loras being given a top seed and a bye is almost as big a travesty as RPIbeing selected.
This is a pretty good team, not the 'unbeatable' duhawks of years past.
I think all of you are sort of saying the same thing. Given the resume, Loras was very fortunate to get a bye, and I presume that was for geographic purposes. Probably was going to be Wheaton or Loras and Loras had the slightly better resume of the two. Beyond that, nobody will get to the Final Four without playng someone decent but the Duhawks certainly in comparison to some of the top teams in other regions have an attractive draw. I guess a question is why Trinity wasn't given a bye if geography was going to dictate but then again Texas isn't close to the West Coast or the North region which has a big cluster of teams.
Top 10 Schools for winning percentage:
School W-L-T Win %
Calvin 20-0-1 0.976
Kenyon 17-1 0.944
Whitworth 16-1-1 0.917
Amherst 14-1-1 0.906
Trinity (Texas) 19-2 0.905
Westminster (Mo.)17-2 0.895
Lycoming 16-1-2 0.895
St. Scholastica 18-2-1 0.881
Montclair State 18-2-1 0.881
Elizabethtown 17-2-1 0.875
Quote from: Ryan Harmanis on November 10, 2015, 10:38:17 AM
Quote from: wingtips2 on November 10, 2015, 08:46:16 AM
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 09, 2015, 02:23:36 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 09, 2015, 02:19:54 PM
Loras got a "bye" to the Final 4
Agree! Amherst with bye to Elite 8. Oneonta with next easiest. Winner of Haverford-SLU sitting pretty. I like OWU's draw to the Elite 8. No one there they can't handle and get Calvin most likely on own field.
OWU? Their history is get to final 4 or get upset in the first two rounds. I'm thinking they are unlikely to advance from their pod this year.
Without commenting on the likelihood of OWU getting out of this weekend, this is pretty accurate. In the past ten seasons, OWU has made it through the first weekend 50% of the time (5/10) but the second weekend 60% of the time (3/5). That includes three losses in the first weekend when OWU was a top-five team (2005, 2009, 2013).
The one thing I will say is that the teams coming to OWU this weekend are not in the mold of teams OWU has normally fallen to on the opening weekend. The opening weekend losses since 2005 were to Transylvania (x2), Rose-Hulman, Centre, and Calvin. I have a feeling that MSOE and this year's undefeated Calvin (assuming they win) aren't coming to town to pack it in and hope for a counter-attack goal. Again, no comment on what I expect to happen, but I think these teams will play straight-up.
On that note, I think the OWU-MSOE game should be great, as both teams really like to attack. Same goes for the winner against Calvin. Should be plenty of scoring.
Their opening pod is a lot more difficult than people are making it out to be. There is every possibility of them losing one of their games.
And speaking of them losing in the opening weekend or making the final 4, one of the exceptions to that generality was 2000. How they didn't beat Linfield is beyond me - the Linfild keeper was standing on his head the entire match. 4 OT's!!!!!
That team was so ridiculously stacked that year - Miller, van horn, a healthy Dunlap, Hoffman, Ty, Tacuma, vorenkamp. The D3 community was robbed not seeing a Messiah vs OWU semi that year.
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 10, 2015, 10:54:01 AM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on November 10, 2015, 09:23:29 AM
Is there a final regular season D3Soccer National Poll that comes out today or was last week the last one?
I was wondering the same thing MAF. Ryan any info on this?
There will be one this week. We delayed it because it took a lot of time to get all of the NCAA preview, selection, and Tournament Central page up and running. I'd expect it tonight or tomorrow.
**By "we" I mean the good people who handle the poll and run D3soccer.com. I don't have any role in running the website itself, so all of that credit goes to Jim Matson and Chris Shirk, among others.
The new poll nicely shows what should have happened. Reverse the four in the two categories and the NCAA cmte would have had things just about perfect. The only real cry would be about Tufts because Tufts is the defending champ and so high profile. We've focused a lot on Midd, but I think Elizabethtown not getting a bid is probably the single worst omission.....probably E'town, Midd, Colorado Coll, and Brockport, in that order. Tufts probably should have been the first team out, but having said that I wouldn't be shocked to see Tufts get to the Final Four or even win the whole again. We have to separate deserving a bid from how dangerous a team is....two different things. I have no doubt Messiah would have been a dangerous team as well.
Tufts is a completely different team than last year. They will be lucky to reach the Sweet 16. Had they gotten Bowdoin's draw then yes they could of made a run.
Etown got screwed...plan and simple. Committee ignored criteria and decided to allow politics to determine selection rather then doing their job properly - from what I was able to find out, Etown was in before final decisions were made and then decision was made to switch at last second based on a unknown request...not confirmed but that is the info I am being told from my sources. Only criteria Etown lacked was SOS (which was low because teams who normally have good records had nightmares this season and you can't predict that)...that alone should have not omitted them from the tournament...they beat everyone who was put in front of them (including Dickinson and Messiah) with their only losses being v F&M early in the season and then the conference final. I know it sounds like someone just complaining because their team didn't get in, but this was down right criminal to leave Etown out...especially when they took other teams who did not deserve to be in ahead of Etown (Tufts/Dickinson)
Good luck to all the teams who were selected, will be an interesting and fun tournament to follow
Quote from: igotthisfeeling on November 10, 2015, 12:13:57 PM
Etown got screwed...plan and simple. Committee ignored criteria and decided to allow politics to determine selection rather then doing their job properly - from what I was able to find out, Etown was in before final decisions were made and then decision was made to switch at last second based on a unknown request...not confirmed but that is the info I am being told from my sources. Only criteria Etown lacked was SOS (which was low because teams who normally have good records had nightmares this season and you can't predict that)...that alone should have not omitted them from the tournament...they beat everyone who was put in front of them (including Dickinson and Messiah) with their only losses being v F&M early in the season and then the conference final. I know it sounds like someone just complaining because their team didn't get in, but this was down right criminal to leave Etown out...especially when they took other teams who did not deserve to be in ahead of Etown (Tufts/Dickinson)
Good luck to all the teams who were selected, will be an interesting and fun tournament to follow
Agree with you. Can't imagine what a coach says to his team in these situations, and any seniors for an E'town who have worked so hard to finally have such a great season and then be denied. Win% does not seem to be a big deal for the cmtes. I have a feeling even Calvin might have been in some trouble if they had not won their tournament, judging by their last regional rank and not hosting the first weekend.
NCAC NE, patiently waiting over here for your Regular Season Top 25...
This is one of the reasons I wish we didn't do conference tournaments. If your conference can play a round robin, you don't need a tournament. If you can't, then two divisions with a championship game is a good substitute. At the very least, the conferences should designate the regular season champ the AQ recipient. I get this isn't "The American Way", but for a sport like soccer, these tournaments aren't the best way of identifying the best conference team.
Now for the NCAAs, there just isn't enough time to do anything else, so I'm OK with a knockout tournament determining a "national champion" as opposed to "the best team in the country." There simply isn't a choice. But there is a choice for deciding the AQ and it annoys me that so many of the best teams in the conference over the course of the season get upset in superfluous tournaments.
Quote from: igotthisfeeling on November 10, 2015, 12:13:57 PM
Etown got screwed...plan and simple. Committee ignored criteria and decided to allow politics to determine selection rather then doing their job properly - from what I was able to find out, Etown was in before final decisions were made and then decision was made to switch at last second based on a unknown request...not confirmed but that is the info I am being told from my sources. Only criteria Etown lacked was SOS (which was low because teams who normally have good records had nightmares this season and you can't predict that)...that alone should have not omitted them from the tournament...they beat everyone who was put in front of them (including Dickinson and Messiah) with their only losses being v F&M early in the season and then the conference final. I know it sounds like someone just complaining because their team didn't get in, but this was down right criminal to leave Etown out...especially when they took other teams who did not deserve to be in ahead of Etown (Tufts/Dickinson)
Good luck to all the teams who were selected, will be an interesting and fun tournament to follow
If that's true, that is really shady, and I feel for you. You have to wonder how often that sort of stuff happens, but with this year being so crazy it seems to have been exacerbated.
Quote from: jknezek on November 10, 2015, 12:32:05 PM
This is one of the reasons I wish we didn't do conference tournaments. If your conference can play a round robin, you don't need a tournament. If you can't, then two divisions with a championship game is a good substitute. At the very least, the conferences should designate the regular season champ the AQ recipient. I get this isn't "The American Way", but for a sport like soccer, these tournaments aren't the best way of identifying the best conference team.
Now for the NCAAs, there just isn't enough time to do anything else, so I'm OK with a knockout tournament determining a "national champion" as opposed to "the best team in the country." There simply isn't a choice. But there is a choice for deciding the AQ and it annoys me that so many of the best teams in the conference over the course of the season get upset in superfluous tournaments.
I was actually thinking about this recently, with teams like Babson snagging trips to NCAAs after poor regular seasons - what do we prefer for conference champion titles, a league like the UAA (most points after 7 games w/tiebreakers for the AQ), or a postseason conference tournament? Agree with keeping the NCAA a knockout tournament, but I think that many deserving teams with excellent conference records get screwed. Then again, such is life.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 10, 2015, 12:31:22 PM
NCAC NE, patiently waiting over here for your Regular Season Top 25...
Give me an hour ;) BTW, if Kenyon survives this weekend and Montclair gets by Tufts (both big IFs IMHO), I'm coming to Jersey.
Me, blooter, Mr.Right, and the Russian lady. Renting a deluxe RV for the weekend.
I feel like the regular season championship should be accounted for somehow whether that is during the selection process or not I don't know. But if you win your regular season championship then you should get some kind of reward towards NCAA at-large criteria if you end up slipping up in conference tournament.
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 10, 2015, 12:38:00 PM
I feel like the regular season championship should be accounted for somehow whether that is during the selection process or not I don't know. But if you win your regular season championship then you should get some kind of reward towards NCAA at-large criteria if you end up slipping up in conference tournament.
I can agree with that. Not saying that teams that are mediocre in the regular season but come on strong in the tourney don't deserve a bid, but when a team like Etown goes 16-1-1 through their season but falls in the conference final and gets shortchanged in dubious circumstances, it no doubt stings.
Quote from: blooter442 on November 10, 2015, 12:40:22 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 10, 2015, 12:38:00 PM
I feel like the regular season championship should be accounted for somehow whether that is during the selection process or not I don't know. But if you win your regular season championship then you should get some kind of reward towards NCAA at-large criteria if you end up slipping up in conference tournament.
I can agree with that. Not saying that teams that are mediocre in the regular season but come on strong in the tourney don't deserve a bid, but when a team like Etown goes 16-1-1 through their season but falls in the conference final and gets shortchanged in dubious circumstances, it no doubt stings.
Yes definitely. If Lycoming would have lost to Messiah they might have been a bubble even after winning the regular season championship like Etown did. Calvin is another example. Most likely the right side of the bubble but you never know after seeing what happened with Midd, Etown, Brockport, Stockton, Colorado and RPI.
There will always be teams that get snubbed or feel snubbed. It's just the reality of the selection process. It should be a 64 team bracket but with the ratio multiplier it comes to 61 unfortunately. But either way you will always have a last 4 in and a first 4 out. Can't keep extending the size of the bracket. 64 should be the max. Not a fan of basketball extending it to 68. There's no reason for that nonsense.
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 10, 2015, 12:38:00 PM
I feel like the regular season championship should be accounted for somehow whether that is during the selection process or not I don't know. But if you win your regular season championship then you should get some kind of reward towards NCAA at-large criteria if you end up slipping up in conference tournament.
I agree....
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 10, 2015, 12:46:44 PM
There will always be teams that get snubbed or feel snubbed. It's just the reality of the selection process. It should be a 64 team bracket but with the ratio multiplier it comes to 61 unfortunately. But either way you will always have a last 4 in and a first 4 out. Can't keep extending the size of the bracket. 64 should be the max. Not a fan of basketball extending it to 68. There's no reason for that nonsense.
Yup, someone will always be unhappy, and in many cases it's justified. While I'm a big fan of and believer in SOS, as I think teams who play hard schedules should be rewarded and that teams with weak SOS aren't always as good as their record indicates, I also think a 17-2-1 Etown could beat an 11-5-2 UChicago. But such is life.
http://www.nscaa.com/rankings/4965
National Poll is up.
My W&L boys crept in. Hopefully they can keep the momentum going against Methodist Thursday. I'd like to see them play Haverford.
Does anybody think that if Etown would have lost in PK's that they would have gotten in? 17-1-2 vs 17-2-1? Would that have made the difference maybe? Already harsh to not let them in but would have been extremely hard to not let them in with only 1 loss technically.
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 10, 2015, 01:31:10 PM
Does anybody think that if Etown would have lost in PK's that they would have gotten in? 17-1-2 vs 17-2-1? Would that have made the difference maybe? Already harsh to not let them in but would have been extremely hard to not let them in with only 1 loss technically.
A loss on PKs and i believe they get! A loss vs tie to a 11-6-2 team(someone quote Scrantons record) hurt them big time.
Quote from: NERevs127 on November 10, 2015, 10:35:58 AM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on November 10, 2015, 09:24:22 AM
http://herosports.herosports.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/d3-mens-soccer-2015-ncaa-tournament-bracket-predictions.pdf
#18 - Trinity TX
#37 - Brandeis
#43 - Carnegie
#60 - DePauw
these rankings seem legit.......... ???
I couldn't agree more. Yet when I allude to their illegitimacy I get accused of trolling and get a -K from the guy who feels the need to consistently post them.
//
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 10, 2015, 01:00:40 PM
http://www.nscaa.com/rankings/4965
National Poll is up.
#2,#3,#6 (trinity, brandeis, amherst) in one pod and #1,#4,#5 in another pod (Calvin, MSU, Kenyon)... ouch. Obviously rankings aren't everything but that gives some credence to the sentiments echoing around that these are the top 2 pods.
NCAC's Top 25 (Final Regular Season Poll)
1) Amherst
2) Haverford
3) Montclair St
4) Brandeis
5) Kenyon
6) Oneonta St
7) Calvin
8) Trinity (TX)
9) Lycoming
10) Loras
11) Whitworth
12) Thomas More
13) Rutgers-Camden
14) SLU
15) Wheaton (Ill)
16) OWU
17) Franklin & Marshall
18) Elizabethtown
19) Middlebury
20) Macalester
21) Bowdoin
22) Dickinson
23) Washington & Lee
24) Redlands
25) UW-W/Colorado Coll/Ohio Northern/MIT/MSOE (TIE)
RV -- Stevens, St Scholastica, CMU, Wash U, Tufts, Rowan, Salisbury, Endicott, Concordia (Wis), Gordon, Stockton, Brockport, Plattsburgh, Messiah, Rose-Hulman, DePauw, UW-Oshkosh, Chicago, UMass-Bos, Eastern
Shooter's Top 25:
1. Haverford-----16-3-0
2. Amherst------14-1-1
3. Montclair-----18-2-1
4. Kenyon-------17-1-0
5. Brandeis------16-2-1
6. Oneonta------15-3-1
7. Calvin---------19-0-1
8. Trinity---------18-2-0
9. Whitworth-----16-1-1
10. Loras--------14-4-1
11. SLU----------14-3-2
12. UWW---------14-3-1
13. Wheaton-----12-3-3
14. Lycoming----16-1-2
15. TMC----------16-2-1
16. Redlands-----16-3-2
17. OWU---------15-4-2
18. ONU----------17-4-1
19. Etown--------17-2-1
20. Dickinson----12-4-3
21. F&M----------15-3-0
22. Stevens------15-3-2
23. MSOE--------15-4-1
24. MIT-----------16-2-1
25. Macalester----13-1-5
RV: Wash. U, Wash. Lee, Salisbury, Midd, Colorado, Tufts, Brockport, Plattsburgh, St. Scholastica, Endicott, Gordon, PSU-Behrend, Geneva, Rose-Hulman, Mt. Aloysius, Cabrini, Messiah, Hopkins, Kings, DePauw, Denison, Case West, Hobart, Pacific Luthern, RPI, Scranton, Morrisvile St., Westminister(Mo), ECSU, Eastern, CNU, CMU, Stockton, Rowan, Camden
*No order on the RV just teams that could be in the mix to RV*
Shooter, we're exactly the same 1 thru 8, except for flipping #1 and #2 and #4 and #5, and I can't let you bump me like that.
NCAC's Top 25 (Final Regular Season Poll)
1) Amherst
2) Haverford
3) Montclair St
4) Brandeis
5) Kenyon
6) Oneonta St
7) Calvin
8) Trinity (TX)
9) Lycoming
10) Loras
11) Whitworth
12) Thomas More
13) Rutgers-Camden
14) SLU
15) Wheaton (Ill)
16) OWU
17) Franklin & Marshall
18) Elizabethtown
19) Middlebury
20) Macalester
21) Bowdoin
22) Dickinson
23) Washington & Lee
24) Redlands
25) UW-W/Colorado Coll/Ohio Northern/MIT/MSOE (TIE)
RV -- Stevens, St Scholastica, CMU, Wash U, Tufts, Rowan, Salisbury, Endicott, Concordia (Wis), Gordon, Stockton, Brockport, Plattsburgh, Messiah, Rose-Hulman, DePauw, UW-Oshkosh, Chicago, UMass-Bos, Eastern
Wesleyan defeats the top 2 teams in the country this year. They are Nescac's 8th place team.
NSCAA NCAA Division III Men - National - Final Regular Season Poll - November 10, 2015
Rank
School
Prev.
W-L-T
1 Calvin College 1 19-0-1
2 Trinity University (Texas) 4 18-2-0
3 Brandeis University 5 16-2-1
4 Montclair State University 3 18-2-1
5 Kenyon College 8 17-1-0
6 Amherst College 7 14-1-1
7 Haverford College 12 16-3-0
8 SUNY Oneonta 16 15-3-1
9 Thomas More College 2 16-2-1
10 Whitworth University 9 16-1-1
11 Loras College 19 14-4-1
12 Wheaton College (Ill.) 15 12-3-3
13 St. Lawrence University 23 14-3-2
14 Macalester College 11 13-1-5
15 Lycoming College RV 16-1-2
16 Salisbury University 20 13-3-3
17 University of Wisconsin-Whitewater 13 14-3-1
18 Massachusetts Insititute Of Technology 17 16-2-1
19 Milwaukee School of Engineering NR 15-4-1
20 University of Redlands 25 16-3-2
21 Dickinson College NR 12-4-3
22 Stevens Institute Of Technology RV 15-3-2
23 Washington & Lee University NR 15-3-2
24 Ohio Northern University 22 17-4-1
25 Belhaven University NR 11-3-1
Also receiving votes: Ohio Wesleyan University (14), Elizabethtown College (9), Colorado College (4), Middlebury College (4), College Of St. Scholastica (3), Franklin & Marshall College (3), Carthage College (2), College of Brockport (1)
Lastguys end of season top 25
1. Haverford
2. Brandeis
3. Oneonta St
4. Amherst
5. MSU
6. Calvin
7. Kenyon
8. Trinity
9. Loras
10. SLU
11. Middlebury
12. UWW
13. Lycoming
14. Washington
15. CMU
16. F&M
17. Rutgers-Camden
18. Tufts
19. Wheaton IL
20. Bowdoin
21. Plattsburgh St
23. Dickinson
24. Whitworth
25. OWU/Rowan
RV: MIT, ECSU, Etown, Eastern, Stevens Tech, Stockton, Macalester, TMC, W&L
MASSEY TOP 25
1) Amherst
2) Calvin
3) Haverford
4) Middlebury
5) Montclair St
6) Kenyon
7) SUNY Oneonta
8) Frank & Marsh
9) Bowdoin
10) MIT
11) Brandeis
12) Tufts
13) Lycoming
14) St Lawrence
15) Rowan
16) Williams
17) Trinity TX
18) Wesleyan CT
19) Elizabethtown
20) CT College
21) MA Boston
22) Thomas More
23) Gordon
24) Loras
25) Hobart-Smith
Brandeis SOS is 21 in Massey, 17 in Herosports. Out of conference games with Tufts, MIT, Trinity, Babson, WPI. Seems like it should be higher on both
Haverford SOS is 10 in Massey, 19 in Herosports. Should be #1 overall, but the strength of the NESCAC vs Centennial prevails I guess.
Middlebury SOS is 9 in Massey, 16 in Herosports
Tufts SOS is 3 in Massey, 2 in Herosports
Rutgers-Camden SOS is 16 in Massey, 4 in Herosports. (Behind Williams, Trinity, Tufts).
Thomas More 138 in Massey, 177 in Herosports
E-town 105 in Massey, 133 in Herosports
Calvin is 115 in Massey, 132 in Herosports
Trinity is 155 in Massey, 250 in Herosports
Lastguy, are you willing to concede that my Top 25 is far superior to yours and all the others? I do have Camden the highest of all the polls ;)
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 10, 2015, 02:10:30 PM
Shooter, we're exactly the same 1 thru 8, except for flipping #1 and #2 and #4 and #5, and I can't let you bump me like that.
NCAC's Top 25 (Final Regular Season Poll)
1) Amherst
2) Haverford
3) Montclair St
4) Brandeis
5) Kenyon
6) Oneonta St
7) Calvin
8) Trinity (TX)
9) Lycoming
10) Loras
11) Whitworth
12) Thomas More
13) Rutgers-Camden
14) SLU
15) Wheaton (Ill)
16) OWU
17) Franklin & Marshall
18) Elizabethtown
19) Middlebury
20) Macalester
21) Bowdoin
22) Dickinson
23) Washington & Lee
24) Redlands
25) UW-W/Colorado Coll/Ohio Northern/MIT/MSOE (TIE)
RV -- Stevens, St Scholastica, CMU, Wash U, Tufts, Rowan, Salisbury, Endicott, Concordia (Wis), Gordon, Stockton, Brockport, Plattsburgh, Messiah, Rose-Hulman, DePauw, UW-Oshkosh, Chicago, UMass-Bos, Eastern
We honestly posted them at the same time so I didn't even see yours until after I posted mine! ;D
November 11, 2015
D3soccer.com Men's Top 25, Week 10
Through games of Sunday, November 8, 2015
# School (1st Pl. Votes) Record Pts. Prev.
1 Kenyon (14) 17-1-0 987 1
2 Trinity (Texas) 19-2-0 938 2
3 Calvin (3) 20-0-1 911 3
4 Amherst (1) 14-1-1 860 4
5 Brandeis 16-2-1 836 6
6 Montclair State 18-2-1 773 7
7 Oneonta State 15-3-1 771 10
8 Haverford 16-3-0 731 12
9 Whitworth 16-1-1 631 11
10 Thomas More 16-2-1 629 5
11 Franklin and Marshall 15-3-0 551 9
12 Lycoming 16-1-2 480 18
13 UW-Whitewater 14-3-1 458 16
14 Elizabethtown 17-2-1 451 8
15 Middlebury 13-2-2 432 15
16 Ohio Wesleyan 15-4-2 422 17
17 Loras 14-4-1 412 19
18 Carnegie Mellon 11-3-3 315 13
19 MIT 16-2-1 309 14
20 St. Lawrence 14-3-2 293 —
21 Eastern 16-2-2 205 25
22 Colorado College 14-3-3 178 23
23 Stevens 15-3-2 123 —
24 Dickinson 12-4-3 87 —
25 Macalester 13-1-5 81 20
Dropped out: No. 21 DePauw, No. 22 Eastern Connecticut, No. 24 Plattsburgh State
Receiving Votes: DePauw 69, Denison 44, Case Western Reserve 44, Wheaton (Ill.) 42, Bridgewater State 36, Westminster (Mo.) 22, Tufts 20, Millsaps 18, Salisbury 16, Cabrini 16, Washington and Lee 13, Washington U. 11, Gordon 11, Redlands 11, Bowdoin 7, Plattsburgh State 7, Rutgers-Camden 2
The D3soccer.com Top 25 is voted on by a panel of coaches, Sports Information Directors and D3soccer.com staff, and is published weekly.
NERevs127's Top 25
1. Kenyon
2. Brandeis
3. Amherst
4. Montclair St
5. Trinity TX
6. Calvin
7. Haverford
8. Oneonta
9. Whitworth
10. Lycoming
11. Franklin & Marshall
12. Elizabethtown
13. Middlebury
14. Thomas More
15. Carnegie Mellon
16. MIT
17. Ohio Wesleyan
18. UW-Whitewater
19. Eastern
20. Loras
21. St. Lawrence
22. Stevens
23. Colorado College
24. DePauw
25. Macalester
By doing the rankings I found out that everyone can agree the top 8 teams in the country are (in no order) Haverford, Brandeis, Amherst, Montclair St, Kenyon, Oneonta, Calvin and Trinity. Every top 25 had these 8 in the top 8 in one order or the other. SO... taking into consideration Shooter, NCAC, Lastguy, NSCAA, d3soccer's and my own top 25 I have broken down the top 8. (I exclude both Massey and Hero for they are illegitimate in many opinions). I did this by simply adding their rankings in each and finding the sum:
1. Amherst = 20pts
2. Brandeis = 21pts
3. Kenyon = 23pts
4. Montclair St. = 25pts
5. Haverford = 26pts
6. Calvin = 30pts
7. Trinity (TX) = 33pts
8. Oneonta St. = 38pts
NCAC's top candidates for NCOY
Ironically my top two picks are going to play each other next round....
Shane Rineer -- Haverford
Mike Singleton -- W&L
Strong consideration....
Gregg Olson -- Macalester
Ken Bovell -- MIT
Mark Wagner -- Eastern
Chris Brown -- Kenyon
Ryan Souders -- Calvin
Ralph Perez -- Redlands
Nate Gibboney -- Lycoming
Skip Roderick -- E'town
Jake Beverlin -- UMass-Bos
Mike Coven -- Brandeis
Justin Serpone -- Amherst
NCAC's All-American candidates list and players to watch in NCAA action (partial/incomplete)
Logan Andryk -- MSOE
Nico Pascual-Leone -- Amherst
Jason Kayne -- Tufts
Nabil Odulate -- Bowdoin
Pat Devlin -- Conn Coll
Thomas Bull -- Amherst
Monil Patel -- Tufts
Stevie Van Siclen -- Bowdoin
Conor Lanahan -- Brandeis
Sean Bingham -- MIT
Chris Cvecko -- Case Western
William Webb -- CMU
Dylan Williams -- Oneonta St
Harry Copeland -- SLU
Damien Bziukiewicz -- Montclair St
Keegan Van Dusseldorp -- Concordia (Wis)
Chase TenBrook -- F&M
Will Corkery -- Haverford
Colin Seitz -- Haverford
Brady Seitz -- Haverford
Tejan Walcott -- Haverford
Mike Ryan -- Rutgers-Camden
Austin Juniet -- Thomas More
Anthony Amolo -- Kenyon
Brian Schaefer -- OWU
Dylan Hottsmith -- UW-W
Jorge Simon -- Loras
Tom Carwile -- Trinity (TX)
Caleb Cole -- Gordon
Marshall Hollingsworth -- Wheaton (Ill)
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 13, 2015, 12:56:48 PM
NCAC's All-American candidates list and players to watch in NCAA action (partial/incomplete)
Logan Andryk -- MSOE
Nico Pascual-Leone -- Amherst
Jason Kayne -- Tufts
Nabil Odulate -- Bowdoin
Pat Devlin -- Conn Coll
Thomas Bull -- Amherst
Monil Patel -- Tufts
Stevie Van Siclen -- Bowdoin
Conor Lanahan -- Brandeis
Sean Bingham -- MIT
Chris Cvecko -- Case Western
William Webb -- CMU
Dylan Williams -- Oneonta St
Harry Copeland -- SLU
Damien Bziukiewicz -- Montclair St
Keegan Van Dusseldorp -- Concordia (Wis)
Chase TenBrook -- F&M
Will Corkery -- Haverford
Colin Seitz -- Haverford
Brady Seitz -- Haverford
Tejan Walcott -- Haverford
Mike Ryan -- Rutgers-Camden
Austin Juniet -- Thomas More
Anthony Amolo -- Kenyon
Brian Schaefer -- OWU
Dylan Hottsmith -- UW-W
Jorge Simon -- Loras
Tom Carwile -- Trinity (TX)
Caleb Cole -- Gordon
Marshall Hollingsworth -- Wheaton (Ill)
Nice Work......
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 13, 2015, 11:27:49 AM
NCAC's top candidates for NCOY
Ironically my top two picks are going to play each other next round....
Shane Rineer -- Haverford
Mike Singleton -- W&L
Strong consideration....
Gregg Olson -- Macalester
Ken Bovell -- MIT
Mark Wagner -- Eastern
Chris Brown -- Kenyon
Ryan Souders -- Calvin
Ralph Perez -- Redlands
Nate Gibboney -- Lycoming
Skip Roderick -- E'town
Jake Beverlin -- UMass-Bos
Mike Coven -- Brandeis
Justin Serpone -- Amherst
My guesses for regional coach of the year:
Central - Ryan Souders -- CalvinEast - Shawn Griffin -- Hobart
Great Lakes - Chris Brown -- Kenyon OR Eric Busener -- TMC
Mid-Atlantic - Shane Rineer -- HaverfordNew England - Mike Coven -- BrandeisSouth Atlantic - Mike Singleton -- W&L OR Todd Tumelty -- MSU
North - Gregg Olson -- Macalester OR Tony Guinn UW-W (Rothert from Loras in the running as well)
West -- Morgan Cathey -- Whitworth
Bold selections are fairly confident of winner...
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 13, 2015, 12:56:48 PM
NCAC's All-American candidates list and players to watch in NCAA action (partial/incomplete)
Logan Andryk -- MSOE
Nico Pascual-Leone -- Amherst
Jason Kayne -- Tufts
Nabil Odulate -- Bowdoin
Pat Devlin -- Conn Coll
Thomas Bull -- Amherst
Monil Patel -- Tufts
Stevie Van Siclen -- Bowdoin
Conor Lanahan -- Brandeis
Sean Bingham -- MIT
Chris Cvecko -- Case Western
William Webb -- CMU
Dylan Williams -- Oneonta St
Harry Copeland -- SLU
Damien Bziukiewicz -- Montclair St
Keegan Van Dusseldorp -- Concordia (Wis)
Chase TenBrook -- F&M
Will Corkery -- Haverford
Colin Seitz -- Haverford
Brady Seitz -- Haverford
Tejan Walcott -- Haverford
Mike Ryan -- Rutgers-Camden
Austin Juniet -- Thomas More
Anthony Amolo -- Kenyon
Brian Schaefer -- OWU
Dylan Hottsmith -- UW-W
Jorge Simon -- Loras
Tom Carwile -- Trinity (TX)
Caleb Cole -- Gordon
Marshall Hollingsworth -- Wheaton (Ill)
Sam Clougher -- Kenyon
Tobias Gimand -- Trinity (CT)
Karl Muelheims -- Whitworth
Braden Andryk -- MSOE
Josh O'Cell -- Brandeis
Nathan Majumdar -- Tufts
Good additions. Forgot about Ocel. I can also think of a couple of handfuls who are probably all-region and just a bit shy of All-American, but I do not who the studs are in the ODAC, CAC, SAA, USAC, and most of the SCAC, LL, SUNYAC, SCIAC, etc.
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 13, 2015, 02:32:43 PM
Good additions. Forgot about Ocel. I can also think of a couple of handfuls who are probably all-region and just a bit shy of All-American, but I do not who the studs are in the ODAC, CAC, SAA, USAC, and most of the SCAC, LL, SUNYAC, SCIAC, etc.
W&L has the player of the year in the ODAC. Ben Bayles, senior midfielder who scored on the PK yesterday. He's a very good player, physically imposing, and he had a good season but not the numbers needed for AA in my opinion. 10 goals, 21 points. Will really need to make an impact in the tournament and a PK goal isn't going to do it.
Quote from: jknezek on November 13, 2015, 03:15:34 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 13, 2015, 02:32:43 PM
Good additions. Forgot about Ocel. I can also think of a couple of handfuls who are probably all-region and just a bit shy of All-American, but I do not who the studs are in the ODAC, CAC, SAA, USAC, and most of the SCAC, LL, SUNYAC, SCIAC, etc.
W&L has the player of the year in the ODAC. Ben Bayles, senior midfielder who scored on the PK yesterday. He's a very good player, physically imposing, and he had a good season but not the numbers needed for AA in my opinion. 10 goals, 21 points. Will really need to make an impact in the tournament and a PK goal isn't going to do it.
Yes, the points thing hurts certain players. Leagues are apples and oranges in the type and skill of play, and the number of games played. Numbers are the biggest barometer and unless all coaches have seen all of the guys play, some worthy players will be unfortunately omitted.....
Wheaton is a very dangerous team.
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on November 13, 2015, 02:23:25 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 13, 2015, 12:56:48 PM
NCAC's All-American candidates list and players to watch in NCAA action (partial/incomplete)
Logan Andryk -- MSOE
Nico Pascual-Leone -- Amherst
Jason Kayne -- Tufts
Nabil Odulate -- Bowdoin
Pat Devlin -- Conn Coll
Thomas Bull -- Amherst
Monil Patel -- Tufts
Stevie Van Siclen -- Bowdoin
Conor Lanahan -- Brandeis
Sean Bingham -- MIT
Chris Cvecko -- Case Western
William Webb -- CMU
Dylan Williams -- Oneonta St
Harry Copeland -- SLU
Damien Bziukiewicz -- Montclair St
Keegan Van Dusseldorp -- Concordia (Wis)
Chase TenBrook -- F&M
Will Corkery -- Haverford
Colin Seitz -- Haverford
Brady Seitz -- Haverford
Tejan Walcott -- Haverford
Mike Ryan -- Rutgers-Camden
Austin Juniet -- Thomas More
Anthony Amolo -- Kenyon
Brian Schaefer -- OWU
Dylan Hottsmith -- UW-W
Jorge Simon -- Loras
Tom Carwile -- Trinity (TX)
Caleb Cole -- Gordon
Marshall Hollingsworth -- Wheaton (Ill)
Sam Clougher -- Kenyon
Tobias Gimand -- Trinity (CT)
Karl Muelheims -- Whitworth
Braden Andryk -- MSOE
Josh O'Cell -- Brandeis
Nathan Majumdar -- Tufts
[/quote
Quote from: wingtips2 on November 14, 2015, 12:54:01 PM
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on November 13, 2015, 02:23:25 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 13, 2015, 12:56:48 PM
NCAC's All-American candidates list and players to watch in NCAA action (partial/incomplete)
Logan Andryk -- MSOE
Nico Pascual-Leone -- Amherst
Jason Kayne -- Tufts
Nabil Odulate -- Bowdoin
Pat Devlin -- Conn Coll
Thomas Bull -- Amherst
Monil Patel -- Tufts
Stevie Van Siclen -- Bowdoin
Conor Lanahan -- Brandeis
Sean Bingham -- MIT
Chris Cvecko -- Case Western
William Webb -- CMU
Dylan Williams -- Oneonta St
Harry Copeland -- SLU
Damien Bziukiewicz -- Montclair St
Keegan Van Dusseldorp -- Concordia (Wis)
Chase TenBrook -- F&M
Will Corkery -- Haverford
Colin Seitz -- Haverford
Brady Seitz -- Haverford
Tejan Walcott -- Haverford
Mike Ryan -- Rutgers-Camden
Austin Juniet -- Thomas More
Anthony Amolo -- Kenyon
Brian Schaefer -- OWU
Dylan Hottsmith -- UW-W
Jorge Simon -- Loras
Tom Carwile -- Trinity (TX)
Caleb Cole -- Gordon
Marshall Hollingsworth -- Wheaton (Ill)
Sam Clougher -- Kenyon
Tobias Gimand -- Trinity (CT)
Karl Muelheims -- Whitworth
Braden Andryk -- MSOE
Josh O'Cell -- Brandeis
Nathan Majumdar -- Tufts
[/quote
Add Connor Hurff
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 14, 2015, 04:21:00 PM
Add Connor Hurff
I might have missed him but I thought the kid from W&L should be considered. Ben Bayles I believe.
Quote from: NJrexSoccer03 on November 14, 2015, 04:24:55 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 14, 2015, 04:21:00 PM
Add Connor Hurff
I might have missed him but I thought the kid from W&L should be considered. Ben Bayles I believe.
Yep, our W&L alum mentioned him.
add Trey Olsen OWU
Add Haverford Sam Yarosh- 16G/5A, CC POY
Quote from: wingtips2 on November 14, 2015, 01:04:41 PM
Quote from: wingtips2 on November 14, 2015, 12:54:01 PM
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on November 13, 2015, 02:23:25 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 13, 2015, 12:56:48 PM
NCAC's All-American candidates list and players to watch in NCAA action (partial/incomplete)
Logan Andryk -- MSOE
Nico Pascual-Leone -- Amherst
Jason Kayne -- Tufts
Nabil Odulate -- Bowdoin
Pat Devlin -- Conn Coll
Thomas Bull -- Amherst
Monil Patel -- Tufts
Stevie Van Siclen -- Bowdoin
Conor Lanahan -- Brandeis
Sean Bingham -- MIT
Chris Cvecko -- Case Western
William Webb -- CMU
Dylan Williams -- Oneonta St
Harry Copeland -- SLU
Damien Bziukiewicz -- Montclair St
Keegan Van Dusseldorp -- Concordia (Wis)
Chase TenBrook -- F&M
Will Corkery -- Haverford
Colin Seitz -- Haverford
Brady Seitz -- Haverford
Tejan Walcott -- Haverford
Mike Ryan -- Rutgers-Camden
Austin Juniet -- Thomas More
Anthony Amolo -- Kenyon
Brian Schaefer -- OWU
Dylan Hottsmith -- UW-W
Jorge Simon -- Loras
Tom Carwile -- Trinity (TX)
Caleb Cole -- Gordon
Marshall Hollingsworth -- Wheaton (Ill)
Sam Clougher -- Kenyon
Tobias Gimand -- Trinity (CT)
Karl Muelheims -- Whitworth
Braden Andryk -- MSOE
Josh O'Cell -- Brandeis
Nathan Majumdar -- Tufts
[/quote
No top 25 poll this week? Was last week the final one until after the final? Just curious! Thanks.
I would add Johnny Rummelhart and Alex Bradley of Loras to the list of All Americans.
Rutgers-Camden closes its season at 14-8-2. Out of their 24 games, the Scarlet Raptors played 15 against teams that were ranked in either the NSCAA or D3soccer.com Top 25 polls, or received votes toward those polls this season. They were 7-6-2 in those contests
Jordan Logan
Kyle Thomas
Abdullahi Abdi
Sainclair Tueno
All are solid players from Lycoming.
Chase TenBrook from F&M as well if he wasn't mentioned already and Hylton-Dei from Dickinson. Looks like you got most of the Haverford players already. Danny Rowe from Messiah along with Matt Kyne, Benji Kennell and Bryant Myer. Jacob Bender can be thrown in the mix as well.
For purposes of NSCAA... Ashame you will not see the likes of E-town, Stockton, Middlebury in the Top 25. Not sure how they will be slotted in the D3soccer.com final poll
TOP 25
RV: Macalester, Washington (MO), RPI, TMC, Plattsburgh St, Eastern, CMU, Whitworth
25) W&L
24) Chicago
23) Redlands
22) Dickinson
21) Rutgers-Camden/Bowdoin
20) Bowdoin/Rutgers-Camden
19) Ohio Wesleyan
18) UW-W
17) MSU
MASSEY TOP 25
1) AMHERST
2) HAVERFORD
3) MIDDLEBURY
4) CALVIN
5) BRANDEIS
6) MIT
7) TUFTS
8) F&M
9) ONEONTA ST
10) KENYON
11) LYCOMING
12) BOWDOIN
13) TRINITY (TX)
14) MSU
15) DICKINSON
16) E-TOWN
17) SLU
18) WILLIAMS
19) GORDON
20) LORAS
21) CHICAGO
22) WESLEYAN
23) CONNECTICUT
24) MESSIAH
25) HOBART
RV) BROCKPORT ST
RV) ROWAN
RV) OWU
RV) REDLANDS
35) WHEATON (ILL)
37) ST. OLAF
45) DePAUW
Herosports: Fairly spot on again, minus the Messiah ranking... Unless Lycoming proves to be even more legit with a W over Amherst.
1 Oneonta State
2 Haverford
3 Calvin
4 Franklin & Marshall
5 Loras
6 Amherst
7 Kenyon
8 St. Lawrence
9 Middlebury
10 Lycoming
11 Messiah
12 Tufts
13 Montclair State
14 Bowdoin
15 Trinity (TX)
16 Cortland State
17 Ohio Wesleyan
18 MIT
19 Rowan
20 Wheaton (IL)
21 Wesleyan (CT)
22 Williams
23 Thomas More
24 North Park
25 Dickinson
---------------------------------------
26 Plattsburgh State
27 UW Whitewater
28 Milwaukee Engineering
29 Occidental
30 UW Oshkosh
Sweet 16
6) Amherst vs 10) Lycoming
15) Trinity vs 36) Brandeis
2) Haverford vs 8) SLU
1) Oneonta St vs 18) MIT
5) Loras vs 65) DePauw
20) Wheaton vs 47) St. Olaf
12) Tufts vs 7) Kenyon
4) F&M vs 3) Calvin
Not quite sure how Brandeis is ranked 36th!
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 17, 2015, 10:14:18 AM
Herosports: Fairly spot on again, minus the Messiah ranking... Unless Lycoming proves to be even more legit with a W over Amherst.
1 Oneonta State
2 Haverford
3 Calvin
4 Franklin & Marshall
5 Loras
6 Amherst
7 Kenyon
8 St. Lawrence
9 Middlebury
10 Lycoming
11 Messiah
12 Tufts
13 Montclair State
14 Bowdoin
15 Trinity (TX)
16 Cortland State
17 Ohio Wesleyan
18 MIT
19 Rowan
20 Wheaton (IL)
21 Wesleyan (CT)
22 Williams
23 Thomas More
24 North Park
25 Dickinson
---------------------------------------
26 Plattsburgh State
27 UW Whitewater
28 Milwaukee Engineering
29 Occidental
30 UW Oshkosh
Sweet 16
6) Amherst vs 10) Lycoming
15) Trinity vs 36) Brandeis
2) Haverford vs 8) SLU
1) Oneonta St vs 18) MIT
5) Loras vs 65) DePauw
20) Wheaton vs 47) St. Olaf
12) Tufts vs 7) Kenyon
4) F&M vs 3) Calvin
Not quite sure how Brandeis is ranked 36th!
Almost as confusing as cortland being 16th ??? ??? ???
Hero Sports does not rate the UAA. I do not see 1 UAA side in the Top 30.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 17, 2015, 10:46:27 AM
Hero Sports does not rate the UAA. I do not see 1 UAA side in the Top 30.
Hero/Bennett is flawed in a sense. But the UAA also was a bit down this year...but probably should have 3 teams in the top 30. Would you agree?
Brandeis - top 10
Washington/CMU - top 25
Chicago - top 30
Case - top 40
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 17, 2015, 01:26:12 PM
Brandeis - top 10
Washington/CMU - top 25
Chicago - top 30
Case - top 40
Change the '2' to a '5' and Massey is with you, almost...
Shooter's End of Season Top 25 Poll:
*1-5 is a toss up between the 5 remaining and will sort itself out in December*
1. Oneonta St.-----------19-3-1
2. Amherst---------------17-1-1
3. Calvin------------------24-0-1
4. Loras------------------16-4-1
5. Wheaton---------------15-3-3
6. Trinity (Tx)------------22-3-0
7. Haverford--------------18-4-0
8. Kenyon----------------19-2-1
9. Lycoming--------------18-2-2
10. Brandeis-------------18-3-1
11. St. Lawrence---------16-4-2
12. MIT------------------18-3-1
13. F&M------------------17-4-0
14. Tufts-----------------11-5-3
15. DePauw--------------12-4-5
16. St. Olaf---------------15-8-1
17. Montclair St.----------19-3-1
18. Macalester------------14-2-5
19. Redlands--------------17-4-2
20. Wash. & Lee-----------16-4-2
21. Dickinson-------------13-5-3
22. Ohio Wesleyan--------16-5-2
23. Wash. U---------------12-4-4
24. Chicago----------------12-5-3
25. Gordon----------------16-5-0
RV: UWW 14-4-2, Whitworth 16-2-1, RPI, 12-5-3, Scranton 11-7-2, Morrisville St. 14-5-2, Camden 14-8-2, Bowdoin 11-4-4, Carthage 12-8-3
Other Notables: Eastern, Plattsburgh St., Stevens, Mass-Boston, Bridgewater St., Texas-Dallas, Rowan, Johnson & Wales, Cabrini, Westminister(Mo), St. Scholastica, UWO, Rose-Hulman, Salisbury, TMC, CMU, MSOE, Mt. Aloysius
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 16, 2015, 05:24:13 PM
For purposes of NSCAA... Ashame you will not see the likes of E-town, Stockton, Middlebury in the Top 25. Not sure how they will be slotted in the D3soccer.com final poll
TOP 25
RV: Macalester, Washington (MO), RPI, TMC, Plattsburgh St, Eastern, CMU, Whitworth
25) W&L
24) Chicago
23) Redlands
22) Dickinson
21) Rutgers-Camden/Bowdoin
20) Bowdoin/Rutgers-Camden
19) Ohio Wesleyan
18) UW-W
17) MSU
16) St. Olaf
15) DePauw
14) Tufts
13) SLU
12) MIT
11) Lycoming
10) F&M
9) Brandeis
8) Wheaton/Loras
7) Trinity
6) Haverford
5) Kenyon
---------------------------
4) Wheaton/Loras
3) Amherst
2) Calvin
1) Oneonta St.
I will do my top 25 at the end of the season. Both polls look good though! Nice job.
Actually I might as well do it now:
MAF Top 25 National Poll: Final 4 Edition
1. Amherst---------17-1-1
2. Calvin------------24-0-1
3. Oneonta St.-----19-3-1
4. Loras------------17-4-1
5. Kenyon----------19-2-1
6. Haverford--------18-4-0
7. Wheaton---------15-4-3
8. Trinity------------22-3-0
9. Lycoming--------18-2-2
10. Brandeis--------18-3-1
11. F&M-------------17-4-0
12. St. Lawrence----16-4-2
13. MIT-------------18-3-1
14. Tufts------------11-5-3
15. DePauw---------12-4-5
16. Montclair St.----19-3-1
17. Redlands--------17-4-2
18. St. Olaf----------15-8-1
19. Macalester------14-2-5
20. Whitworth-------16-2-1
21. OWU------------16-5-2
22. Wash. Lee-------16-4-2
23. Dickinson--------13-5-3
24. RPI--------------12-5-3
25. Gordon----------16-5-0
RV: Eastern, Camden, J&W, Bowdoin, Chicago, TMC, Plattsburgh, CMU, Wash. U, Westminister(Mo), UWW, UWO, Daniel Webster, Stevens, Mass-Boston, Bridgewater, Morrisville St., Rowan, Texas-Dallas, CSS, MSOE, Mt. Aloysius, Rose-Hulman, Salisbury, Cabrini, Scranton, Methodist, Sage, Carthage, ONU, Millsaps, Babson, Westminister(PA), Lake Forest, CCNY, Thomas(ME), Etown, Middlebury, Colorado College, Endicott, Messiah, CNU, PSU-Behrend, UWS, Belhaven, Brockport St
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 23, 2015, 11:01:58 AM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 16, 2015, 05:24:13 PM
For purposes of NSCAA... Ashame you will not see the likes of E-town, Stockton, Middlebury in the Top 25. Not sure how they will be slotted in the D3soccer.com final poll
TOP 25
RV: Macalester, Washington (MO), RPI, TMC, Plattsburgh St, Eastern, CMU, Whitworth
25) W&L
24) Chicago
23) Redlands
22) Dickinson
21) Rutgers-Camden/Bowdoin
20) Bowdoin/Rutgers-Camden
19) Ohio Wesleyan
18) UW-W
17) MSU
16) St. Olaf
15) DePauw
14) Tufts
13) SLU
12) MIT
11) Lycoming
10) F&M
9) Brandeis
8) Wheaton/Loras
7) Trinity
6) Haverford
5) Kenyon
---------------------------
4) Wheaton/Loras
3) Amherst
2) Calvin
1) Oneonta St.
Last Guy not sure how you can put F&M ahead of Lycoming considering record, SOS, winning pct, common opponents, etc... The fact that F&M lost to Dickinson twice and Lycoming beat Dickinson is enough in my eyes to keep them in front, plus the NSCAA and NCAA regional rankings all have Lycoming in front. Just being nit picky since I am familiar with the teams and region :) I do like that we agree on Haverford at 6 and our slot for Dickinson is almost on point. I also think that Brandeis was a bit overrated this year which is why I have Lycoming ahead of them as well. I probably should put F&M ahead of Brandeis as well but based on record I kept them in-between Lycoming and F&M. All in good fun and it's been a great year. I am sure you like my MSU slot as well ;)
F&M has the stronger SOS and much tougher conference. Aside from the Dickinson results, F&M is ranked higher in NCAA Regional and D3Soccer.com Top 25. That's like saying F&M beat E-town, who beat Messiah.
I'm almost never putting Lyco ahead of F&M given the data points. On top of that, I think F&M would win the head to head battle.
My mid Atlantic rankings
Haverford
F&M
Lyco
E-town
Dickinson
Eastern
Messiah
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 24, 2015, 09:39:36 AM
F&M has the stronger SOS and much tougher conference. Aside from the Dickinson results, F&M is ranked higher in NCAA Regional and D3Soccer.com Top 25. That's like saying F&M beat E-town, who beat Messiah.
I'm almost never putting Lyco ahead of F&M given the data points. On top of that, I think F&M would win the head to head battle.
My mid Atlantic rankings
Haverford
F&M
Lyco
E-town
Dickinson
Eastern
Messiah
Jumping here because I find this debate intriguing...
Lycoming is ranked #15 in the NSCAA National Top 25 as to F&M only RV(3)----Advantage Lycoming
Lycoming is ranked 2nd behind Haverford in NSCAA regional rankings as to F&M at 5th!----Advantage Lycoming
F&M was ahead of Lycoming in 3rd NCAA regional rankings by one spot (2 and 3)----Advantage F&M(barely)
One would assume that Lycoming jumped F&M in the final unpublished poll. This can be assumed because of the fall of F&M int he last week of the season as to where Lycoming kept winning.----No advantage to either here
Both teams hosted 1st and 2nd rounds----No advantage either way
F&M SOS slightly higher than Lycoming----Advantage F&M
RvR= Lycoming 2-1 F&M 3-3 (2-3 if Gettysburg doesn't get this magical 9th slot that appeared after the first rankings?)----No advantage either way.
18-2-2 overall record compared to 17-4---Advantage Lycoming
Lycoming beats Dickinson...F&M loses twice to Dickinson
Lycoming 4-2 vs tournament teams...F&M 2-4 vs tournament teams....I think this stat tells it all.
If you total this up it gives an edge to Lycoming. I would have loved to see these teams play each other this year. But Lycoming definitely jumped F&M in the unpublished NCAA rankings and will be ahead of F&M in both the final poll done by D3soccer and NSCAA after the Final 4 concludes. They are only one spot behind F&M in D3soccer in the final regular season poll so that will be an easy jump for them.
Both are great teams this is just my philosophy in getting to my point. Honestly they are probably even but I think you have to give the edge to Lycoming. They proved that all the "top 5 of the Centennial is great" talk is just garbage when they took care of Dickinson...something F&M couldn't do either time.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 24, 2015, 09:39:36 AM
F&M has the stronger SOS and much tougher conference. Aside from the Dickinson results, F&M is ranked higher in NCAA Regional and D3Soccer.com Top 25. That's like saying F&M beat E-town, who beat Messiah.
I'm almost never putting Lyco ahead of F&M given the data points. On top of that, I think F&M would win the head to head battle.
My mid Atlantic rankings
Haverford
F&M
Lyco
E-town
Dickinson
Eastern
Messiah
My Mid-Atlantic Rankings:Haverford
Lyco
F&M
Dickinson
Eastern
Etown
Messiah
Your telling me that Eastern is better than Messiah? Now I am no Messiah hoorah fan but after watching Eastern play RUC and I know only 1 game and 10 men there is no way that team would beat Messiah.
Im seeing:
F&M 4-4 RvR
Lyco 3-2 RvR
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 24, 2015, 12:35:26 PM
Your telling me that Eastern is better than Messiah? Now I am no Messiah hoorah fan but after watching Eastern play RUC and I know only 1 game and 10 men there is no way that team would beat Messiah.
I do not think they are better than Messiah Mr. Right. I don't think they are better than Etown either. But all the teams listed above Messiah and Etown made the tournament. That's my justification for that. :)
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 24, 2015, 01:26:05 PM
Im seeing:
F&M 4-4 RvR
Lyco 3-2 RvR
I was doing pre-tournament games. If you include the tourney then yes those are correct(I should have included tourney-oops!).
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 24, 2015, 09:39:36 AM
F&M has the stronger SOS and much tougher conference. Aside from the Dickinson results, F&M is ranked higher in NCAA Regional and D3Soccer.com Top 25. That's like saying F&M beat E-town, who beat Messiah.
I'm almost never putting Lyco ahead of F&M given the data points. On top of that, I think F&M would win the head to head battle.
My mid Atlantic rankings
Haverford
F&M
Lyco
E-town
Dickinson
Eastern
Messiah
Fair enough and I appreciate your opinion. I can assure you that after seeing both teams play numerous times this year...Lycoming would breeze by F&M. Just my thoughts. As for my rankings(if we are doing who is the best regardless of making the NCAA tournament or not)I would go like this:
1. Fords
2. Lyco
3. F&M
4. Messiah
5. Dickinson
6. Etown
7. Eastern
Etown put together a nice record but they were/are way overrated. I have no beef with Etown or any other team in the region...but they play in a crap conference(to put it nicely). Should they have gotten in the tournament? Yes they should have. But should they have also won their conference tournament? Yes they should have. Its not like the Commonwealth where 2 teams realistically could have made NCAAs. The Landmark is a 1 bid league and that bid went to Scranton. If Messiah were to play Etown later in the year there is no doubt they cruise in that game. They lost on a wonder goal earlier in the year which shows that it was a fluke(how I feel personally). I have studied this region extensively which by no means makes me an expert but if you check my pre-NCAA predictions for this region they were all spot on of how they would shape up in the bracket. My only glitch was a toss up game between Morrisville St and Cabrini.
Messiah and Dickinson probably would have been the most even game all year if they had played. But I give the edge to Messiah in the rankings because I think they were better than what their record showed...which was still better than Dickinson's overall record at the end of the day even with less games. Fords, Lyco, and F&M are straight forward as no one should have any arguments with that. I explained 4-6 and Eastern wouldn't have a chance against any of those teams if you put them in a 10 game series. Sure they might sneak one out here or there but if they had to play a team 10 times they would consitently lose more than they would win against the top 6 ahead of them.
Hero Massey
1) Oneonta St.............Amherst
2) Calvin....................Calvin
3) Amherst.................Oneonta St
4) Haverford...............Haverford
5) Loras.....................Middlebury
6) F&M.......................Trinity (TX)
7) Kenyon..................Kenyon
8) Middlebury.............Brandeis
9) Messiah.................Tufts
10) SLU.......................F&M
11) MSU......................MIT
12) Lycoming...............Bowdoin
13) Trinity (TX).............Lycoming
14) Bowdoin.................MSU
15) Tufts......................Loras
16) Cortland St.............Dickinson
17) OWU......................SLU
18) Wheaton IL.............E-town
19) Rowan...................Williams
20) MIT.......................Chicago
21) Wesleyan...............Wesleyan
22) Williams.................Connecticut
23) Thomas More..........Gordon
24) North Park..............Brockport St
25) Dickinson...............Redlands
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on November 24, 2015, 03:05:45 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 24, 2015, 09:39:36 AM
F&M has the stronger SOS and much tougher conference. Aside from the Dickinson results, F&M is ranked higher in NCAA Regional and D3Soccer.com Top 25. That's like saying F&M beat E-town, who beat Messiah.
I'm almost never putting Lyco ahead of F&M given the data points. On top of that, I think F&M would win the head to head battle.
My mid Atlantic rankings
Haverford
F&M
Lyco
E-town
Dickinson
Eastern
Messiah
Fair enough and I appreciate your opinion. I can assure you that after seeing both teams play numerous times this year...Lycoming would breeze by F&M. Just my thoughts. As for my rankings(if we are doing who is the best regardless of making the NCAA tournament or not)I would go like this:
1. Fords
2. Lyco
3. F&M
4. Messiah
5. Dickinson
6. Etown
7. Eastern
Etown put together a nice record but they were/are way overrated. I have no beef with Etown or any other team in the region...but they play in a crap conference(to put it nicely). Should they have gotten in the tournament? Yes they should have. But should they have also won their conference tournament? Yes they should have. Its not like the Commonwealth where 2 teams realistically could have made NCAAs. The Landmark is a 1 bid league and that bid went to Scranton. If Messiah were to play Etown later in the year there is no doubt they cruise in that game. They lost on a wonder goal earlier in the year which shows that it was a fluke(how I feel personally). I have studied this region extensively which by no means makes me an expert but if you check my pre-NCAA predictions for this region they were all spot on of how they would shape up in the bracket. My only glitch was a toss up game between Morrisville St and Cabrini.
Messiah and Dickinson probably would have been the most even game all year if they had played. But I give the edge to Messiah in the rankings because I think they were better than what their record showed...which was still better than Dickinson's overall record at the end of the day even with less games. Fords, Lyco, and F&M are straight forward as no one should have any arguments with that. I explained 4-6 and Eastern wouldn't have a chance against any of those teams if you put them in a 10 game series. Sure they might sneak one out here or there but if they had to play a team 10 times they would consitently lose more than they would win against the top 6 ahead of them.
I would say the Landmark conference is stronger than the MACC from top to bottom... You say that the Landmark is a 1 bid league, but so is MACC. If Messiah were to win the title, Lycoming would have been in a pickle with one of the last spots in with Thomas More.
E-town beats the same teams that Lyco beat, but they are overrated?
Common Opponents Lyco E-town
Dickinson 2-1.....................2-1
Susqu 4-2.....................3-1
Scranton 3-0...................2-0 / 2-3
Juniata 6-0.....................4-1
Alvernia 2-1.....................0-0
Messiah 2-0/1-0..................1-0
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 25, 2015, 10:00:44 AM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on November 24, 2015, 03:05:45 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 24, 2015, 09:39:36 AM
F&M has the stronger SOS and much tougher conference. Aside from the Dickinson results, F&M is ranked higher in NCAA Regional and D3Soccer.com Top 25. That's like saying F&M beat E-town, who beat Messiah.
I'm almost never putting Lyco ahead of F&M given the data points. On top of that, I think F&M would win the head to head battle.
My mid Atlantic rankings
Haverford
F&M
Lyco
E-town
Dickinson
Eastern
Messiah
Fair enough and I appreciate your opinion. I can assure you that after seeing both teams play numerous times this year...Lycoming would breeze by F&M. Just my thoughts. As for my rankings(if we are doing who is the best regardless of making the NCAA tournament or not)I would go like this:
1. Fords
2. Lyco
3. F&M
4. Messiah
5. Dickinson
6. Etown
7. Eastern
Etown put together a nice record but they were/are way overrated. I have no beef with Etown or any other team in the region...but they play in a crap conference(to put it nicely). Should they have gotten in the tournament? Yes they should have. But should they have also won their conference tournament? Yes they should have. Its not like the Commonwealth where 2 teams realistically could have made NCAAs. The Landmark is a 1 bid league and that bid went to Scranton. If Messiah were to play Etown later in the year there is no doubt they cruise in that game. They lost on a wonder goal earlier in the year which shows that it was a fluke(how I feel personally). I have studied this region extensively which by no means makes me an expert but if you check my pre-NCAA predictions for this region they were all spot on of how they would shape up in the bracket. My only glitch was a toss up game between Morrisville St and Cabrini.
Messiah and Dickinson probably would have been the most even game all year if they had played. But I give the edge to Messiah in the rankings because I think they were better than what their record showed...which was still better than Dickinson's overall record at the end of the day even with less games. Fords, Lyco, and F&M are straight forward as no one should have any arguments with that. I explained 4-6 and Eastern wouldn't have a chance against any of those teams if you put them in a 10 game series. Sure they might sneak one out here or there but if they had to play a team 10 times they would consitently lose more than they would win against the top 6 ahead of them.
I would say the Landmark conference is stronger than the MACC from top to bottom... You say that the Landmark is a 1 bid league, but so is MACC. If Messiah were to win the title, Lycoming would have been in a pickle with one of the last spots in with Thomas More.
E-town beats the same teams that Lyco beat, but they are overrated?
Common Opponents
Lyco E-town
Dickinson 2-1.....................2-1
Susqu 4-2.....................3-1
Scranton 3-0...................2-0 / 2-3
Juniata 6-0.....................4-1
Alvernia 2-1.....................0-0
Messiah 2-0/1-0..................1-0
Well looking at the common opponents you put up (good info btw!) it looks like Lycoming has a better record vs common opponents right?
Lycoming= 7-0-0 with 20 GF and 4 GA
Etown=5-1-1 with 14 GF and 6 GA
Lycoming went 3-0-0 vs Landmark opponents compared to Etown going 1-0-1 vs MACC opponents.
I don't see how this helps your Etown argument? Good info for comparison though so +K for that! :)
And to say Lycoming was in a pickle if they had lost to Messiah is outrageous? I think they proved to everybody by their performance throughout the year and in the NCAA tournament that they were/are deserving of their record, accolades, and achievements. I am curious to why so many people hate on certain teams like LastGuy and Mr. Right with Lycoming and some people with Eastern and a couple in other threads that hated on Tufts? I hated on Camden because of the accumulations of losses they had. Didn't mean they weren't a good or dangerous team and they proved my point of teams getting hot at the right time. Luckily they won the NJAC. But at least I back up my logic on why I feel that way. And to back up MAF with Etown I am assuming he will point out Etown's weak SOS as a major reason why he feels that they were a bit overrated. And to be fair I am not sure that the Landmark is better than the MACC...pretty similar if you ask me. But the Landmark has just Etown compared to the MACC that had Lycoming and Messiah...big difference right there if you ask me.
Good discussion though lets keep it going!
Also I forgot to add that the MACC will now be a 2 bid league every year as long as Messiah gets back to where we expect them to. I would also be curious to see the comparison between Lycoming and F&M with common opponents and scores.
Good points on E-town vs the MACC and Lyco vs the Landmark...
If Lycoming would have lost to Messiah, would E-town have jumped them in the "secret rankings"?
MACC.............. Landmark
13) Lycoming.......................18) E-town
26) Messiah.........................57) Scranton
121) Alvernia.....................107) Drew
140) Arcadia......................127) Susqu
147) Widener.....................130) Merchant Marine
167) LVC...........................135) Catholic
192) Hood.........................225) Goucher
273) Stevenson..................229) Moravian
349) Albright.....................317) Juniata
avg...159............................avg...149
Common Opponents
Lyco E-town
Dickinson 2-1.....................2-1
Susqu 4-2.....................3-1
Scranton 3-0...................2-0 / 2-3
Juniata 6-0.....................4-1
Alvernia 2-1.....................0-0
Messiah 2-0/1-0..................1-0
Shot Count Lyco E-town
Dickinson (17-14) (13-4)
Susqu (17-15) (19-15)
Scranton (12-2) (11-8 / 12-16)
Juniata (25-7) (23-15)
Alvernia (9-7) (16-10)
Messiah (14-13 / 6-12) (12-13)
Common Opponents
Lyco.................F&M
LVC 1-0..................2-0
Arcadia 1-1..................4-0
Alvernia 2-1..................1-0 OT
Stevenson 5-0..................1-0 2OT
Dickinson 2-1..................0-1, 0-1
Lyco went 4-0-1 with 11 GF and 2 GA
F&M went 4-2-0 with 8 GF and 2 GA
Lyco went 1-0 vs Centennial Conference as F&M went 0-2(just common opponents)
Lyco went 3-0-1 in MACC play as F&M went 4-0 (common opponents)
COMMON OPPONENTS
Lyco (shots)...................F&M
LVC......................................1-0 (13-6).....................2-0 (20-3)
Arcadia.................................1-1 (34-6).....................4-0 (19-4)
Alvernia................................2-1 (9-7).......................1-0 (16-2)
Stevenson.............................5-0 (23-4).....................1-0 (24-7)
Dickinson..............................2-1 (17-14)....................0-1 (17-6) / 0-1 (19-10)
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 25, 2015, 10:46:49 AM
Good points on E-town vs the MACC and Lyco vs the Landmark...
If Lycoming would have lost to Messiah, would E-town have jumped them in the "secret rankings"?
MACC.............. Landmark
13) Lycoming.......................18) E-town
26) Messiah.........................57) Scranton
121) Alvernia.....................107) Drew
140) Arcadia......................127) Susqu
147) Widener.....................130) Merchant Marine
167) LVC...........................135) Catholic
192) Hood.........................225) Goucher
273) Stevenson..................229) Moravian
349) Albright.....................317) Juniata
avg...159............................avg...149
Pretty much identical. I guess I give the edge to MACC because of having two very strong teams at the top in Messiah and Lycoming (and keep in mind Etown use to be in the MACC up to 2013 which Lycoming beat Messiah and Etown to win the crown that year...and Messiah won the National Championship that year as well!) compared to the Landmark which has just Etown...now like you said top to bottom might give an edge to the Landmark. Very good topic for debate!
Catholic, Susqu, Scranton, Merchant Marine have made the tournament in recent years...
2014 Common Opponents for Lyco/FM with J&W a cross-over in 2014 and 2015.
LYCO.......................F&M
LVC .............................4-0.........................4-0
Alvernia .......................1-0.........................3-3
Stevenson.....................3-1.........................3-1
Rochester......................2-1.........................2-2
Johnson&Wales..............1-0 (2015)..............1-0 (2014)
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 25, 2015, 11:06:22 AM
Catholic, Susqu, Scranton, Merchant Marine have made the tournament in recent years...
2014 Common Opponents for Lyco/FM with J&W a cross-over in 2014 and 2015.
LYCO.......................F&M
LVC .............................4-0.........................4-0
Alvernia .......................1-0.........................3-3
Stevenson.....................3-1.........................3-1
Rochester......................2-1.........................2-2
Johnson&Wales..............1-0 (2015)..............1-0 (2014)
Good comparison from 2014 as F&M got in and Lycoming missed out on NCAA's. And the Landmark was/is always a toss up because they don't have a dominating team in the league like the MACC does with Messiah and now Lycoming. No one has won the MACC in the last 15 years(since 2000) besides Messiah, Lycoming and Etown. Messiah has 12, Lycoming has 2 (2 out of last 3) and Etown had 2 in the mid 2000's.
Since the creation of the Landmark in 2007, the strength/depth edge would go to the Landmark over the Commonwealth in my opinion. Catholic had a down year this season and besides Etown's surprising campaign it was a lot of mediocrity in 2015. But the Landmark sent two teams to the NCAA tournament in 2008, 2009, 2010, 2012 and 2013 with five different teams making NCAA appearances in the conference's nine year history. Susquehanna reached the Sweet 16 and Scranton the Elite 8 in 2012. Merchant Marine was in the Elite 8 in 2010. Catholic has been the conference's most consistently good team and they were PK's from advancing to the Sweet 16 last year.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 25, 2015, 11:27:50 AM
Since the creation of the Landmark in 2007, the strength/depth edge would go to the Landmark over the Commonwealth in my opinion. Catholic had a down year this season and besides Etown's surprising campaign it was a lot of mediocrity in 2015. But the Landmark sent two teams to the NCAA tournament in 2008, 2009, 2010, 2012 and 2013 with five different teams making NCAA appearances in the conference's nine year history. Susquehanna reached the Sweet 16 and Scranton the Elite 8 in 2012. Merchant Marine was in the Elite 8 in 2010. Catholic has been the conference's most consistently good team and they were PK's from advancing to the Sweet 16 last year.
I guess I just feel more strongly for the MACC because of how good Messiah is. No other teams really have to deal with that kind of powerhouse over a 15 year span. There are some of course but Messiah is Messiah and that's hard to compare to. It all depends how you look at it. If you put Catholic or any other team in the MACC would they win it? Probably not. If you put Messiah in the Landmark would they win it? Yes every time probably. Same for Etown before they switched(and are now winning it) and Lycoming recently has shown its dominance over Landmark opponents.
You just can't ignore that part of the equation.
How many national championships have been won from a Landmark team compared to the MACC? NCAA tournament wins? Etc... Yes Messiah has a lot to do with that for the MACC but that is why I rank them as a better conference.
Here's Massey's take on conference strength. The power number is measured in goals, so if an average team from conference A played an average team from conference B, and A's power was higher by one, then the team from conference A would win by 1 goal on average.
1. NESCAC 2.50
2. UAA 1.71
3. SUNY AC 1.57
4. Centennial 1.60
5. Liberty Lea 1.52
6. NJAC 1.25
7. C Coast N 1.01
8. NCAC 0.96
9. NE W&M 0.87
10. SCIAC 0.75
11. CCIW 0.69
12. Landmark 0.53
13. MIAC 0.49
14. MACC 0.50
15. Com Coast 0.45
16. Little East 0.40
17. MIAA 0.34
18. Mid Atl 0.32
19. WIAC 0.22
20. Capital 0.28
[27 omitted]
48. U Midwest -3.57
HeroSports Conference Strength
1 NESCAC
2 UAA
3 Liberty-League (5th Massey)
4 WIAC (19th Massey)
5 NJAC (6th Massey)
6 SUNYAC (3rd Massey)
7 NEWMAC (9th Massey)
8 North Coast Conference (same)
9 Centennial (4th Massey)
10 IIAC
11 Capital (20th Massey)
12 SCIAC (10th Massey)
13 Minnesota (same)
14 Landmark (12th Massey)
15 CCC (15th Massey)
16 CCIW (11th Massey)
17 MACC (14th Massey)
18 Little-East (16th Massey)
19 MACF (18th Massey)
20 American Southwest
21 SAA
22 Ohio
23 Empire 8
24 NWC
25 Northern-Athletics
26 ODAC
27 Southern-Collegiate
28 Michigan (17th Massey)
29 Presidents
30 MASCAC
44 Upper Midwest
That's just for this year. We are talking present and long term since 2000. Ryan did a great post on the top conferences nationwide a few weeks back and MACC was on the list of top 6. If thats mainly because of Messiah then so be it but you can't discredit the league because of that. All those teams have to deal with Messiah just like other conferences have to deal with their opponents.
Well, the Landmark came into existence in 2007, so there's no comparison back to 2000. If you let the whole conference take credit for having the anomally that is Messiah, then the MAC Commonwealth is the best conference, as good as or better than the NESCAC, Centennial, UAA, etc. So that's one approach. I find that largely meaningless as it really only tells us how much better Messiah has been than everybody else in D-III; it tells us next to nothing about the conference as a whole. I'm a Messiah alum/fan and have nothing against the Commonwealth, but in my opinion if you can get past Messiah, I think the Landmark has had more schools with good teams (2007 to 2014) than the Commonwealth.
From 2007 TO 2014 . . .
The Landmark has five teams with 8-year overall records above .600; the Commonwealth has two: Messiah and E-town (seven years before move to Landmark).
The Landmark has had five different teams finish the regular season in first (including ties); Messiah has finished in first every year with LVC tying them in 2008.
The Landmark has had four different tournament champions; Messiah has been Commonwealth champs all but 2013 when Lyco upset them and took the title.
The Landmark has had five different teams in the NCAA's versus just two for the Commonwealth.
The Landmark has received two Pool B at-large berths (2008) and four Pool C at-large berths (2009-2014); the Commonwealth only has the one Pool C at-large selection in 2013 when Messiah was upset in the playoffs.
Landmark teams have appeared in the NCAA tournament 12 times (five different teams ranging from 1 to 4 appearances); Commonwealth teams have appeared in the NCAA tournament 9 times (Messiah 8x, Lyco once).
Landmark teams have a collective 8-11-2 NCAA record with a Sweet 16 and Elite 8 run. Commonwealth teams have a collective 32-4-1 NCAA record (31-3-1 for Messiah, 1-1-0 for Lyco) with Messiah's 5 titles and Elite 8 run.
If you matched up conferences' #1 teams, #2 teams, #3 teams, and so on, I think the Landmark would have been a little more competitive in spots #2 through #5 against other conferences over the last 8 years than the Commonwealth would have been.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 25, 2015, 02:30:40 PM
Well, the Landmark came into existence in 2007, so there's no comparison back to 2000. If you let the whole conference take credit for having the anomally that is Messiah, then the MAC Commonwealth is the best conference, as good as or better than the NESCAC, Centennial, UAA, etc. So that's one approach. I find that largely meaningless as it really only tells us how much better Messiah has been than everybody else in D-III; it tells us next to nothing about the conference as a whole. I'm a Messiah alum/fan and have nothing against the Commonwealth, but in my opinion if you can get past Messiah, I think the Landmark has had more schools with good teams (2007 to 2014) than the Commonwealth.
From 2007 TO 2014 . . .
The Landmark has five teams with 8-year overall records above .600; the Commonwealth has two: Messiah and E-town (seven years before move to Landmark).
The Landmark has had five different teams finish the regular season in first (including ties); Messiah has finished in first every year with LVC tying them in 2008.
The Landmark has had four different tournament champions; Messiah has been Commonwealth champs all but 2013 when Lyco upset them and took the title.
The Landmark has had five different teams in the NCAA's versus just two for the Commonwealth.
The Landmark has received two Pool B at-large berths (2008) and four Pool C at-large berths (2009-2014); the Commonwealth only has the one Pool C at-large selection in 2013 when Messiah was upset in the playoffs.
Landmark teams have appeared in the NCAA tournament 12 times (five different teams ranging from 1 to 4 appearances); Commonwealth teams have appeared in the NCAA tournament 9 times (Messiah 8x, Lyco once).
Landmark teams have a collective 8-11-2 NCAA record with a Sweet 16 and Elite 8 run. Commonwealth teams have a collective 32-4-1 NCAA record (31-3-1 for Messiah, 1-1-0 for Lyco) with Messiah's 5 titles and Elite 8 run.
If you matched up conferences' #1 teams, #2 teams, #3 teams, and so on, I think the Landmark would have been a little more competitive in spots #2 through #5 against other conferences over the last 8 years than the Commonwealth would have been.
Great stuff FW. And my point I was trying to get at but I guess I didn't convey it well (turkey on my mind ;D) is that if you take Messiah out of the picture from the Commonwealth you would have that same kind of parity in the MACC as the Landmark has because they don't have a Messiah to suck up all the championships. Am I making sense? I'm not arguing at all with you or Last Guy. Just trying to convey my thoughts and possibly sway your thoughts too ;)
Good discussion. Agreed, without Messiah you'd likely have the same number of different teams getting the AQ's from the Commonwealth as the Landmark. That is, a lot of parity and musical chairs in the standings year to year.
However, my key points in support of the Landmark being the better/strionger/deeper conference of the two would be the overall winning percentages, number of at-large berths, and how each conference would stack-up #1-vs-#1, #2-vs-#2, etc. with other conferneces. For example, it is my opinion that without Messiah, the Commonwealth would never have had a shot at any at-large berths, whereas the Landmark has gotten a second team in via a Pool C at-large berth four times in the previous six years (2009-2014) and got two Pool B at-large berths in 2008 (when the conference was still in provisional status). That's two tournament teams in five of seven years from 2008 thru 2014. That's not bad at all. When did the Commonwealth have two tournament-worthy teams in that time frame? But enough about the Landmark and Commonwealth already!
Interesting information as I see both sides to the debate. I would have to lean towards FW in saying that the Landmark top to bottom has been the better league since 2007, but with that being said I think the league with the best contenders for NCAA's clearly goes to the MACC. The Landmark actually gained strength with Etown and the MACC lost strength by there departure. Lycoming has come on the scene strong since 2013 when Gibboney took over as head coach. I don't think Lycoming's success is an accident. And as long as he stays the head coach they will be a team we will be talking about for many years to come. The MACC is setting up for a great rivalry in years to come between Messiah and Lycoming if it's anything like the past 3. Both teams are 3-3 with some fantastic games and finishes. I do agree that the MACC has/will become a 2 bid league. The Landmark will always be a 1 bid league unless they get a "Messiah" and then a "Lycoming" to meet the challenger. (Based off of this year---not counting since 2007---FW is right about 2 bids since 08 and etc...).
Both leagues have 9 teams which makes it nice for comparisons.
Landmark:
Rank-------Team---------Overall Record
1 Elizabethtown.........17-2-1
T2 Scranton...............11-7-2
T2Susquehanna................9-7-2
4 Catholic.................7-10-2
5 Drew....................12-5-3
6 Merchant...............9-7-1
7 Goucher...............6-11-1
8 Moravian...............7-9-2
9 Juniata.................4-13-1
5 winning records and 4 losing records
82-73-15
MACC:
Rank-----Team--------Overall Record
1. Lycoming.............18-2-2
2. Messiah...............14-5-1
3. LVC....................8-10-0
4. Arcadia................11-7-3
5. Widener...............9-10-1
6. Hood..................12-9-0
7. Alvernia................9-7-6
8. Stevenson............5-12-1
9. Albright................1-15-1
5 winning records and 4 losing records
87-77-15
They are almost identical. So if they are an even league(this year) and you needed to pick a clear cut winner it would have to go to the MACC because of how top heavy it is with Lycoming and Messiah and based off NCAA tournament advancement this year Lycoming also gives the MACC the edge over Scranton and the Landmark.
I like the topic guys it makes for great discussion and it would be interesting to see a year by year comparison for overall records. Might do that in some spare time.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 25, 2015, 04:13:21 PM
Good discussion. Agreed, without Messiah you'd likely have the same number of different teams getting the AQ's from the Commonwealth as the Landmark. That is, a lot of parity and musical chairs in the standings year to year.
However, my key points in support of the Landmark being the better/strionger/deeper conference of the two would be the overall winning percentages, number of at-large berths, and how each conference would stack-up #1-vs-#1, #2-vs-#2, etc. with other conferneces. For example, it is my opinion that without Messiah, the Commonwealth would never have had a shot at any at-large berths, whereas the Landmark has gotten a second team in via a Pool C at-large berth four times in the previous six years (2009-2014) and got two Pool B at-large berths in 2008 (when the conference was still in provisional status). That's two tournament teams in five of seven years from 2008 thru 2014. That's not bad at all. When did the Commonwealth have two tournament-worthy teams in that time frame? But enough about the Landmark and Commonwealth already!
Correct and the MACC has only had 2 worthy teams the past 3 seasons(personal opinion). They should have had 2 in 2013(and they did) 2014 (Lyco got snubbed) and 2015 (Messiah got snubbed). Honestly Messiah was one of the better teams in the country this year. It's a shame they couldn't scrape out a win for one of their losses. They would have been dancing and been fun to see progress but I guess there is always next year!
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on November 25, 2015, 04:23:05 PMI do agree that the MACC has/will become a 2 bid league. The Landmark will always be a 1 bid league unless they get a "Messiah" and then a "Lycoming" to meet the challenger. (Based off of this year---not counting since 2007---FW is right about 2 bids since 08 and etc...).
Not sure I'd take this year by itself as evidence that the Landmark will always be a 1-bid conference. Only time will tell if Catholic's down year is a trend or an aberration. If they bounce back, and if Elizabethtown can build on this season, with Scranton, Drew, etc. around to put in the occassional good season, the Landmark could continue to regularly get 2 teams in the dance as has been the case. (Note: Merchant Marine moves back to the Skyline next year, so that takes away one of the potential teams to be in the mix some years).
Will a team be taking Merchant Marines place, FW?
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 25, 2015, 05:14:48 PM
Will a team be taking Merchant Marines place, FW?
I didn't know they were leaving either. Any reasoning? And as Last Guy said will anyone be replacing them?
Also Happy Thanksgiving to everyone...even Mr. Right ;)
D3soccer.com mentioned Merchant Marine's move in this article: http://www.d3soccer.com/columns/christan-shirk/2015/new-in-2015
Here's the article from the USMMA's website about the move back to the Skyline Conference: http://www.usmmasports.com/general/2014-15/skyline
It doesn't really give a reason. I wonder if travel time/distance factored in as half the conference is approaching a 4-hour drive away or more (Juniata 5h5m, Catholic 4h32m, Susquehanna 3h49m, Goucher 3h47m, Elizabethtown 3h43m).
The Landmark doesn't really need a replacement member. Elizabethtown's addition brought the conference to nine teams, so the departure brings them back to eight teams which seems to be the most common (traditional?) conference size in Division III.
Skyline Conference would seem to be their best fit for location. Does anyone know why they left in the first place? Personally, Merchant Marine does not fit in the Skyline and I think they should be in a conference with their rival Coast Guard.
When do all the post season awards come out?
Regional COY? National COY?
All-Region? All-American?
Quote from: backyarddawg on November 30, 2015, 10:53:56 AM
When do all the post season awards come out?
Regional COY? National COY?
All-Region? All-American?
A couple weeks after the Final 4. I know before the NSCAA convention in January because the national winners I believe get recognized
Regional Coaches of the Year:
Central: Ryan Souders Calvin
East: Iain Byrne SUNY Oneonta
Great Lakes: Chris Brown Kenyon
Mid-Atlantic: Shane Rineer Haverford
New England: Mike Coven Brandeis
North: Gregg Olson Macalester
South Atlantic: Gerry DiBartolo Salisbury
West: Ralph Perez Redlands
Who wins National Coach of the Year?
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 30, 2015, 11:08:33 AM
Quote from: backyarddawg on November 30, 2015, 10:53:56 AM
When do all the post season awards come out?
Regional COY? National COY?
All-Region? All-American?
A couple weeks after the Final 4. I know before the NSCAA convention in January because the national winners I believe get recognized
I'd say it's even money on Souders from Calvin... Undefeated season and trip to the final 4.
2nd place would be Rineer at Haverford. Rothert could very well get it if they win the title.
And DiBartolo won regional coach of the year? W&L coach got snubbed, IMO.
South Atlantic All-Region:
First Team
Pos. Player Class School Hometown
K Gillen Beck So. Washington & Lee Blacksburg, Va.
D Patrick Barry Jr. Washington & Lee Boston, Mass.
D Kyle Goodwin So. Montclair State Carteret, N.J.
D Clevon McPherson Sr. Stockton Browns Mills, N.J.
D Matthew Sherr Sr. Emory Rosyln, N.Y.
M Benjamin Bayles Sr. Washington & Lee Fleming Island, Fla.
M Damian Bziukiewicz Sr. Montclair State East Rutherford, N.J.
M Nicholas Costelloe Jr. The College of New Jersey Freehold, N.J.
M Harry Nodwell Jr. Christopher Newport Devon, England
F Caleb Lucas Jr. Maryville (Tenn.) Maryville, Tenn.
F Eirik Nordseth Sr. Methodist Steinkjer, Norway
F Nico Roth Sr. Millsaps Alzenau, Germany
F Michael Ryan Sr. Rutgers-Camden Marlton, N.J.
F Shaun Watt Jr. Greensboro College Montreal, Que.
Second Team
Pos. Player Class School Hometown
K Andrew Staedeli Sr. Salisbury University Hanover, Md.
D Mitchell Muise Sr. Frostburg State Jefferson, Md.
D Thomas Palmer Jr. Maryville (Tenn.) Kingsport, Tenn.
D William Sjaastad Fr Rowan Allentown, N.J.
M Lukas Elmhammar Sr. Millsaps Stockholm, Sweden
M Blake Heatherly Jr. Randolph Jacksonville, N.C.
M Connor Hurff Jr. Rutgers-Camden Sewell, N.J.
F Fredy Flores So. Lynchburg Alexandria , Va.
F Nick Muntean Sr. Oglethorpe Duluth, Ga.
F Nicholas Tait Jr. St. Mary's College (Md.) Silver Spring, Md.
F Leslie Umunna Jr. Salisbury Bowie, Md.
Third Team
Pos. Player Class School Hometown
K Alex Rabone So. Methodist Dubai, United Arab Emirates
D Sean Christein Sr. Christopher Newport Yorktown, Va.
D Nathaniel Eiben Jr. Salisbury Jefferson, Md.
D Ben Gold Sr. Methodist Bethesda, Md.
M Tim Baker Jr. Maryville (Tenn.) Knoxville, Tenn.
M Mike Bennett Sr. Mary Washington Kings Park, N.Y.
M Tyler Carbaug Sr. Roanoke Blacksburg, Va.
M Nigel Robinson Jr. York (Pa.) York, Pa.
F Troy Jurney Jr. Randolph Camp Lejeune, N.C.
F Sevag Kherlopian So. Kean Haworth, N.J.
F Michael Olla Jr. Montclair State Bloomfield, N.J.
Mid-Atlantic All-Region
First Team
Pos. Player Class School Hometown
K Trevor Britton Sr. Franklin & Marshall Owings Mills, Md.
D Jacob Bender Jr. Messiah Baltimore, Md.
D Martin Fevre Sr. Elizabethtown Chablis, France
D Kyle Thomas So. Lycoming College Bel Air, Md.
M Will Corkery Jr. Haverford College Needham, Mass.
M Danny Rowe Sr. Messiah Lancaster, Pa.
M John Sarraco Jr. Eastern Boontown Township, N.J.
M Sam Yarosh Sr. Haverford West Chester, Pa.
F Ugochukwu Okolie Fr. Franklin & Marshall Lagos, Nigeria
F Chase Tenbrook Sr. Franklin & Marshall Millville, N.J.
F Gilbert Waso Fr. Elizabethtown Elizabethtown, Pa.
Second Team
Pos. Player Class School Hometown
K Rodrigo Barrera Sr. Elizabethtown Sao Paulo, Brazil
D Colin Seitz Sr. Haverford San Diego, Calif.
D Edward Wagner Sr. Dickinson Washington, D.C.
D Ben Wild Jr. Franklin & Marshall Newtown, Pa.
M Abdullahi Abdi So. Lycoming Seattle, Wash.
M A.J. Bishop Jr. Cabrini Macungie, Pa.
M Alfred Hylton-Dei Sr. Dickinson Geneva, Switzerland
M Jordan Logan So. Lycoming Oxford, Pa.
F Daniel Hernandez Sr. King's Palisades Park, N.J.
F Henry Smith Jr. Gettysburg Westfield, N.J.
F Gavin Yingling Jr. United States Merchant Marine Academy Salisbury, Md.
Third Team
Pos. Player Class School Hometown
K Zach Rider So. Alvernia Lancaster, Pa.
D Danny Giraldo Sr. Drew Madison, N.J.
D Andrew Park Sr. Johns Hopkins Cary, N.C.
D Jadon Ramsing So. Eastern Columbia, Md.
M Devin Malfitano Sr. Franklin & Marshall Wilmington, Del.
M Ben Roda So. Cabrini Allentown, Pa.
M Shane Votto Sr. Elizabethtown Ardmore, Pa.
F Drew Demich Jr. Hood Jefferson, Md.
F Matthew Hull Sr. Marywood Chalfont, Pa.
F Bobby Kane Jr. Cabrini Haverford, Pa.
F Bradley McKim So. Arcadia Fallston, Md.
Mid-Atlantic Team Breakdown:
F&M=5
Etown=4
Fords=3
Lyco=3
Cabrini=3
Messiah=2
Dickinson=2
Eastern=2
Alvernia=1
Hood=1
Arcadia=1
Gettysburg=1
Kings=1
USMM=1
Drew=1
Marywood=1
Hopkins=1
And yet Etown wasn't good enough to make the tournament...makes sense.
Quote from: igotthisfeeling on December 03, 2015, 03:38:27 PM
And yet Etown wasn't good enough to make the tournament...makes sense.
Nope, have to win the AQ w/ that conference.
First Team
Pos. Player Class School Hometown
K Zeke Vainer Jr. Macalester Melrose, Mass.
D Charles Edemba Sr. Knox Gale, Ill.
D Kevin Krueger Jr. Wartburg Prior Lake, Minn.
D Justin Stanko Jr. Wisconsin-Whitewater St. Charles, Ill.
M Jacob Hernandez Jr. Wisconsin-Oshkosh Appleton, Wis.
M Branden McGarrity Jr. Carleton Wilmette, Ill.
M Alan Schembri-Winsmayer Jr. Macalester Rochester, Minn.
F Kyle Farrar Jr. St. Scholastica London, England
F Dylan Hartman Sr. Lake Forest Phoenix, Ariz.
F Gonzalo Hernandez-Cascante Jr. University of Dubuque Madrid, Spain
F Nathaniel Logie Sr. Knox Galesburg, Ill.
F Johnny Rummelhart Sr. Loras Iowa City, Iowa
Second Team
Pos. Player Class School Hometown
K Jacob Peterson So. Loras River Forest, Ill.
D Joey Gustafson Sr. Wisconsin-Superior Anoka, Minn.
D Mark Heydt Sr. St. Thomas (Minn.) Brookfield, Wis.
D Myles Norville Jr. Luther Bridgetown, Barbados
M Thomas Corcoran Jr. St. Scholastica Warrington, England
M Alex Niederloh Jr. Saint John's Maple Grove, Minn.
M Francisco Sajuan Sr. Carroll (Wis.) Waukegan, Ill.
M Miles Stockman Willis Sr. St. Thomas (Minn.) Ann Arbor, Mich.
F Alex Bradley Jr. Loras London, England
F Kevin Skrip Sr. St. Olaf Naperville, Ill.
F Charlie Spurr Jr. Macalester Seattle, Wash.
Third Team
Pos. Player Class School Hometown
K Scott Sibik Sr. Wisconsin-Platteville Onalaska, Wis.
D Joe Chell Jr. St. Scholastica Ascot, England
D Danny Daniels So. University of Dubuque East Bethel, Minn.
D Pat Hehir Sr. St. Norbert Hickory Hills, Ill.
D Ben Henry Jr. Augsburg Manitowoc, Wis.
M Charlie Adams Sr. Gustavus Adolphus Stillwater, Minn.
M Michael Hurley Sr. Grinnell Homewood, Ill.
M Paris Martins Jr. Wartburg Coralville, Iowa
M Jorge Simon Sr. Loras Appleton, Wis.
F Marco Delbecchi So. St. Norbert Greenville, Wis.
F Abbai Habte Sr. Hamline St. Paul, Minn.
F Dylan Hottsmith So. Wisconsin-Whitewater DeKalb, Ill.
Quote from: KICKIN95 on December 03, 2015, 06:07:00 PM
First Team
Pos. Player Class School Hometown
K Zeke Vainer Jr. Macalester Melrose, Mass.
D Charles Edemba Sr. Knox Gale, Ill.
D Kevin Krueger Jr. Wartburg Prior Lake, Minn.
D Justin Stanko Jr. Wisconsin-Whitewater St. Charles, Ill.
M Jacob Hernandez Jr. Wisconsin-Oshkosh Appleton, Wis.
M Branden McGarrity Jr. Carleton Wilmette, Ill.
M Alan Schembri-Winsmayer Jr. Macalester Rochester, Minn.
F Kyle Farrar Jr. St. Scholastica London, England
F Dylan Hartman Sr. Lake Forest Phoenix, Ariz.
F Gonzalo Hernandez-Cascante Jr. University of Dubuque Madrid, Spain
F Nathaniel Logie Sr. Knox Galesburg, Ill.
F Johnny Rummelhart Sr. Loras Iowa City, Iowa
Second Team
Pos. Player Class School Hometown
K Jacob Peterson So. Loras River Forest, Ill.
D Joey Gustafson Sr. Wisconsin-Superior Anoka, Minn.
D Mark Heydt Sr. St. Thomas (Minn.) Brookfield, Wis.
D Myles Norville Jr. Luther Bridgetown, Barbados
M Thomas Corcoran Jr. St. Scholastica Warrington, England
M Alex Niederloh Jr. Saint John's Maple Grove, Minn.
M Francisco Sajuan Sr. Carroll (Wis.) Waukegan, Ill.
M Miles Stockman Willis Sr. St. Thomas (Minn.) Ann Arbor, Mich.
F Alex Bradley Jr. Loras London, England
F Kevin Skrip Sr. St. Olaf Naperville, Ill.
F Charlie Spurr Jr. Macalester Seattle, Wash.
Third Team
Pos. Player Class School Hometown
K Scott Sibik Sr. Wisconsin-Platteville Onalaska, Wis.
D Joe Chell Jr. St. Scholastica Ascot, England
D Danny Daniels So. University of Dubuque East Bethel, Minn.
D Pat Hehir Sr. St. Norbert Hickory Hills, Ill.
D Ben Henry Jr. Augsburg Manitowoc, Wis.
M Charlie Adams Sr. Gustavus Adolphus Stillwater, Minn.
M Michael Hurley Sr. Grinnell Homewood, Ill.
M Paris Martins Jr. Wartburg Coralville, Iowa
M Jorge Simon Sr. Loras Appleton, Wis.
F Marco Delbecchi So. St. Norbert Greenville, Wis.
F Abbai Habte Sr. Hamline St. Paul, Minn.
F Dylan Hottsmith So. Wisconsin-Whitewater DeKalb, Ill.
only a total of 4 Loras players and only one on first team? what's going on here
Quote from: firstplaceloser on December 03, 2015, 06:34:00 PM
only a total of 4 Loras players and only one on first team? what's going on here
Speaks to the depth of the team and the quality of the program, IMO. As Coach Rothert mentioned in the interview, while Loras undoubtedly has some great players, they aren't reliant on any one guy and this year it really seems like the **team** is the star. Unfortunately, this voting also came before the Final Four, when many of these players will get to showcase their talents before the biggest audience.
While I'm sure Loras has more players deserving of more accolades, I'd bet every one of them would give up the awards to win the title this weekend.
(If we want to get cynical, there's always the possibility that coaches don't vote for players from certain teams because of personal feelings. But with the way Loras's season has played out and the real focus on using a bunch of players, I don't necessarily think that's coming into play here).
I think the coaches placed the Loras players where they deserve to be. They truly don't have a single obvious standout player like they have in the past (Pizzello, Cavers, Figuera, Bonilla, Mejia, etc). Watching them early in the year I didn't think they were final 4 material because they didn't have a go-to guy who I thought could carry them. But they have a starting 11 and bench full of guys who can all play and I think that makes them very dangerous, as Rothert mentioned. I'm looking forward to the games tomorrow!
These nominations are all jokes.
Thomas Bull has given up 4 goals all year with 15 shutouts and is third team.
The leading goal scorer/points leader in the Centennial is 2nd team with another kid behind him in both categories first team and this kids team went further. How does that make sense?
Bias toward MA but kid from Haverford has 9G/13A as a DCM. What midfielder in a DCM role has those stats? Kid from EU was terrific all year but nothing close to Haverford kid.
Kenyon 3 kids 1st team come on.
St. Scholastica should never have a first team fwd they play no one.
If I added correctly 13 non NCAA participants made it.
NSCAA D3 All Americans
First Team
Pos. Name Class School Hometown
K Sam Clougher Jr. Kenyon Dublin, Ireland
D Tom Carwile* Sr. Trinity (Texas) Tulsa, Okla.
D Martin Fevre Sr. Elizabethtown Chablis, France
D Nick Groenewold Sr. Calvin Oak Brook, Ill.
D Conor Lanahan* Sr. Brandeis Avon, Conn.
D Deklan Robinson Sr. Middlebury Gloucester, Mass.
M Logan Andryk*** Sr. Milwaukee Engineering Hartland, Wis.
M Jeremiah Barnes Sr. Kenyon Largo, Fla.
M Sean Bingham* Sr. Massachusetts Insititute Of Technology Garden City, N.Y.
M Damian Bziukiewicz Sr. Montclair State East Rutherford, N.J.
M Caleb Cole* Jr. Gordon Coatesville, Pa.
F Tony Amolo* Jr. Kenyon Lagos, Nigeria
F Kyle Farrar Jr. St. Scholastica London, England
F Chase TenBrook Sr. Franklin & Marshall Millville, N.J.
F Gilbert Waso Fr Elizabethtown Elizabethtown, Pa.
Second Team
Pos. First Class School Hometown
K Chad Margotta Sr. Trinity (Texas) San Antonio, Texas
D Harry Copeland* Sr. St. Lawrence Dedham, Mass.
D Kyle Goodwin So. Montclair State Carteret, N.J.
D Kyle Thomas So. Lycoming Bel Air, Md.
M Chris Cvecko Sr. Case Western Reserve Erie, Pa.
M Marshall Hollingsworth** Sr. Wheaton (Ill.) Libertyville, Ill.
M Josh Ocel Jr. Brandeis North Attleboro, Mass.
M John Saracco Jr. Eastern Boontown Township, N.J.
M Dylan Williams* Sr SUNY Oneonta Monroe, N.Y.
M Sam Yarosh Sr. Haverford West Chester, Pa.
F Peter DiLorenzo Sr. College at Brockport Hicksville, N.Y.
F Austin Juniet* Sr. Thomas More Ft. Thomas, Ky.
F Nico Pascual-Leone Sr. Amherst Wayland, Mass.
F Nico Roth Sr. Millsaps Alzenau, Germany
F Brian Schaefer Sr. Ohio Wesleyan Chatham, N.J.
F Shaun Watt Jr. Greensboro College Montreal, Que.
F William Webb Sr. Carnegie Mellon Dallas, Texas
Third Team
Pos. First Class School Hometown
K Thomas Bull* Sr. Amherst Montgomery, N.J.
D Jacob Bender Jr. Messiah Baltimore, Md.
D Kevin Krueger Sr. Wartburg Prior Lake, Minn.
D Carter Ocko Jr. Endicott Danvers, Mass.
D Justin Stanko Jr. Wisconsin-Whitewater St. Charles, Ill.
D Spencer Wolfe Sr. Whitworth Bellingham, Wash.
M Patrik Devlin Jr. Connecticut College Washington Crossing, Pa.
M Danny Rowe Sr. Messiah Lancaster, Pa.
M Christian Sakshaug Fr. Trinity (Texas) San Antonio, Texas
F Braden Andryk So. Milwaukee Engineering Hartland, Wis.
F Alexis Archilla Jr. Plattsburgh State Warwick, N.Y.
F Max Grossenbacher Sr. Colorado College Austin, Texas
F Matt Kinkopf Jr. Ohio Northern West Chester, Ohio
F Caleb Lucas Jr. Maryville (Tenn.) Maryville, Tenn.
F Eirik Nordseth Sr. Methodist Steinkjer, Norway
F Johnny Rummelhart Sr. Loras Iowa City, Iowa
F Michael Ryan** Sr. Rutgers-Camden Marlton, N.J
Good to see Etown get the recognition they deserve with Jilly and Martin going first team All-American...maybe the coaches who snubbed Etown felt this was a way to make up for what they did.
As for people complaining about who got on where and such...blame the COACHES who did vote and more importantly didnt vote. It's a point system that coaches vote for players and the points get added up...then based on those points - the players are placed on 1st, 2nd, 3rd, nothing for all-region and all-american.
Far too many coaches do not vote due to not having any players up for the awards, which then hurts players who are on the ballot as their point total is not as high as it could have/should have been. Its a shame really that coaches can't take the time to vote for players, but that's their choice.
People always give the NSCAA crap for having a bad system...however the people who "control" the rankings are the COACHES who vote, not some group of people who sit back and don't know anything. So when you complain about this kind of stuff all the time - you are basically saying you know more then the coaches...
Congrats to all who got selected!
The fact Pascual-Leone is not first team, is puzzling to me. He is/was arguably the best player in D3 soccer this year.
And JSPTB - Etown can't control how good the teams are in their conference each year...many teams in the Landmark under-performed greatly this year...Catholic (preseason favorite) Scranton, USMM all did not perform as expected...Drew had a good run til they played Etown. Unfortunately, Etown's conference SOS was under .500 which killed them. Then having the nscaa regional committee chair being from their league and the guy doesn't back Etown is just a slap in the face - but I guess he got intimidated by the other coaches on the committee.
And are you saying if Etown had gone 19-1 (loss being in the conference finals) that they would not be good enough to be in the NCAA tournament?
Quote from: CovensCorner on December 04, 2015, 09:40:33 AM
The fact Pascual-Leone is not first team, is puzzling to me. He is/was arguably the best player in D3 soccer this year.
I agree. NPO in my opinion.
Quote from: igotthisfeeling on December 04, 2015, 10:00:42 AM
And JSPTB - Etown can't control how good the teams are in their conference each year...many teams in the Landmark under-performed greatly this year...Catholic (preseason favorite) Scranton, USMM all did not perform as expected...Drew had a good run til they played Etown. Unfortunately, Etown's conference SOS was under .500 which killed them. Then having the nscaa regional committee chair being from their league and the guy doesn't back Etown is just a slap in the face - but I guess he got intimidated by the other coaches on the committee.
And are you saying if Etown had gone 19-1 (loss being in the conference finals) that they would not be good enough to be in the NCAA tournament?
That's why they should have bolstered their non-conference schedule. To make up for their weak conference. And how did Scranton under perform when they went to the 2nd round of the NCAA tournament. I think you meant over achieved.
Quote from: igotthisfeeling on December 04, 2015, 10:00:42 AM
And JSPTB - Etown can't control how good the teams are in their conference each year...many teams in the Landmark under-performed greatly this year...Catholic (preseason favorite) Scranton, USMM all did not perform as expected...Drew had a good run til they played Etown. Unfortunately, Etown's conference SOS was under .500 which killed them. Then having the nscaa regional committee chair being from their league and the guy doesn't back Etown is just a slap in the face - but I guess he got intimidated by the other coaches on the committee.
And are you saying if Etown had gone 19-1 (loss being in the conference finals) that they would not be good enough to be in the NCAA tournament?
If they had a more challenging non-conference schedule they would have been in. But the SOS killed them. I think they should have been in regardless so lets get that out of the way right now. I am not hating on Etown, but just providing you with what the committee was most likely thinking.
Etown non-conference schedule:Beat PSU-Harrisburg(3-11-2), DeSales(8-8-2), Dickinson(13-5-3), Wilkes(4-13-0), Gwynedd Mercy(6-13-1), Messiah(14-5-1), PSU-Berks(9-9-1), Lancaster Bible(13-7-3)
Lost to F&M(17-4-0)
Tied Alvernia(9-7-6)
The combined record of opponents for the their wins out of conference is a dismal 70-71-13 then you have the loss to F&M and the tie to Alvernia.
Personally they played 6 cupcakes, 3 really good teams, and 1 average team out of conference. But if you compare that schedule to other teams around the region or country that play in sub-par conferences I bet Etown's non-conference is one of the weaker ones.
They went 2-1-1 against the really good/average teams out of conference. Did everything they were suppose to do except win the championship and it cost them. SOS of .520 or .525 whichever it was just didn't cut it. If they were at the .540 level they would have been in 100% IMO.
.550 seems to be the common threshold as we discussed a month ago.
And that's where its tough to gauge where a team will be each year-you have ideas but never truly know until the season gets going, and these games are scheduled a year in advance (sometimes longer if it is a long term agreement between teams to switch home and away each year)...you have PSU-Harrisburg for example - 14-6-1 in 2014, league runner up and returned most of the team. Unfortunately in 2015 - they greatly under-achieved and had a nightmare of a season, but how is Etown supposed to know that they were going to be that way in 2015 after the year they had in 2014?
And when other teams won't schedule E'town, it makes it tougher for E'town to schedule tough games...example - LVC and Lyco won't play Etown now that Etown is out of the MAC. So E'town needs to schedule whoever they can get within a certain distance due to budgets and travel time and who is willing to play them.
Shooter - If Etown had gone 19-1 with the only loss being in the conference final...because of their SOS being so low - do they not get a bid?
Mike Ryan only 3rd team AA with 18g and 3a on the year? He's probably a top 3 forward in the nation. According to NCAA Active Stats Leaders, he is 1st in goals (75), 2nd in points (166), 3rd in games played (96) across all divisions, and against arguably one of the toughest four year schedules out there. Rutgers-Camden was 16-13-3 vs NCAA Regionally Ranked opponents over his career. If you factor in NSCAA National/Regional ranked schools and D3soccer.com Ranked schools, that number probably inflates to 40-45 games. If you can name a forward with better numbers, please share.
I'd imagine Mike Ryan would have score 120 goals if he played at CSS.
Logan Andryk is #1 in points across all divisions.
Other D3 Notables Among Active Leaders:
Tom Corcoran, CSS 165 pts
Sean Bingham, MIT 162 pts
Kyle Farrar, CSS 160 pts*
Sean Morgan, CSS 143 pts
Anthony Colofranson, Stockton 123 pts*
Steven Golz, Wheaton 112 pts
Brian Schaefer, OWU 108 pts
Lucas Terci, MSU 106 pts
Tony Amolo, Kenyon 104 pts
Marshall Hollingsworth, Wheaton 103 pts
*Junior
Quote from: igotthisfeeling on December 04, 2015, 12:10:33 PM
And that's where its tough to gauge where a team will be each year-you have ideas but never truly know until the season gets going, and these games are scheduled a year in advance (sometimes longer if it is a long term agreement between teams to switch home and away each year)...you have PSU-Harrisburg for example - 14-6-1 in 2014, league runner up and returned most of the team. Unfortunately in 2015 - they greatly under-achieved and had a nightmare of a season, but how is Etown supposed to know that they were going to be that way in 2015 after the year they had in 2014?
And when other teams won't schedule E'town, it makes it tougher for E'town to schedule tough games...example - LVC and Lyco won't play Etown now that Etown is out of the MAC. So E'town needs to schedule whoever they can get within a certain distance due to budgets and travel time and who is willing to play them.
Shooter - If Etown had gone 19-1 with the only loss being in the conference final...because of their SOS being so low - do they not get a bid?
That's somewhat true and somewhat not true. You are correct in saying you never really know what teams will do each year. You can only hope and predict. PSU-Harrisburg is a great example of that. But they played 6 teams who historically have been bad over the past 5+ years in DeSales, Wilkes, PSU-Berks and Harrisburg, GM, and Lancaster Bible(who actually had a good record this year). And I find that hard to believe in saying that LVC or Lycoming wouldn't play Etown. A couple colleagues of mine said that both those teams tried to get Etown on their schedules that very next year after they left the MAC and Etown would only scrimmage. It goes both ways and it's not just Etown who is getting beat up my friend. I know another one of my good friends from up north(NY area) who has connections with some teams back in PA said that Etown denied Lycoming the past couple years when trying to schedule a game between the two. I think you need to check some facts. LVC is also right in the backyard so I can almost guarantee they would accept an invite from Etown as well and have also tried the past few seasons. Etown doesn't want to play teams that they could lose to and that was proved again this year. Why do you think they left the MAC? Tired of losing to Messiah every year maybe? Then up and coming Lycoming also joined the hunt for the MAC crown which means they would have to get past Messiah AND Lyco. So they bounced and went to the Landmark. And I also agree that Etown should have been in regardless if they were 17-2-1 or 19-1. They got snubbed but that is long over with and we should focus on the Final 4 this weekend.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on December 04, 2015, 12:49:21 PM
Mike Ryan only 3rd team AA with 18g and 3a on the year? He's probably a top 3 forward in the nation. According to NCAA Active Stats Leaders, he is 1st in goals (75), 2nd in points (166), 3rd in games played (96) across all divisions, and against arguably one of the toughest four year schedules out there. Rutgers-Camden was 16-13-3 vs NCAA Regionally Ranked opponents over his career. If you factor in NSCAA National/Regional ranked schools and D3soccer.com Ranked schools, that number probably inflates to 40-45 games. If you can name a forward with better numbers, please share.
I'd imagine Mike Ryan would have score 120 goals if he played at CSS.
Logan Andryk is #1 in points across all divisions.
Other D3 Notables Among Active Leaders:
Tom Corcoran, CSS 165 pts
Sean Bingham, MIT 162 pts
Kyle Farrar, CSS 160 pts*
Sean Morgan, CSS 143 pts
Anthony Colofranson, Stockton 123 pts*
Steven Golz, Wheaton 112 pts
Brian Schaefer, OWU 108 pts
Lucas Terci, MSU 106 pts
Tony Amolo, Kenyon 104 pts
Marshall Hollingsworth, Wheaton 103 pts
*Junior
Mike Ryan was robbed this year. he 100% deserved 1st team over F&M Chase Tenbrook. Ryan is arguably top 5 forward to ever play division 3. someone please prove me otherwise.
okay maybe not Tenbrook but what In the world is a kid from St Scholastica doing on here?? that is a joke
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on December 04, 2015, 12:49:21 PM
Mike Ryan only 3rd team AA with 18g and 3a on the year? He's probably a top 3 forward in the nation. According to NCAA Active Stats Leaders, he is 1st in goals (75), 2nd in points (166), 3rd in games played (96) across all divisions, and against arguably one of the toughest four year schedules out there. Rutgers-Camden was 16-13-3 vs NCAA Regionally Ranked opponents over his career. If you factor in NSCAA National/Regional ranked schools and D3soccer.com Ranked schools, that number probably inflates to 40-45 games. If you can name a forward with better numbers, please share.
I'd imagine Mike Ryan would have score 120 goals if he played at CSS.
Logan Andryk is #1 in points across all divisions.
Other D3 Notables Among Active Leaders:
Tom Corcoran, CSS 165 pts
Sean Bingham, MIT 162 pts
Kyle Farrar, CSS 160 pts*
Sean Morgan, CSS 143 pts
Anthony Colofranson, Stockton 123 pts*
Steven Golz, Wheaton 112 pts
Brian Schaefer, OWU 108 pts
Lucas Terci, MSU 106 pts
Tony Amolo, Kenyon 104 pts
Marshall Hollingsworth, Wheaton 103 pts
*Junior
Lyco:
Logan 11+30=41
Abdi 17+32=49
Etown:
Waso=26
If these 2 from Lycoming stay on pace and put up 25 each in the next 2 years that will put them at 91 and 99 points which is extremely impressive.
Waso from Etown would be at 104 if he puts up 26 at least each year.
This shows you how consistently good you need to be over a 4 year span to put up those kinds of numbers. Will be interesting to watch and see these 3 young all-region players over the next 2-3 years and see how close they come to the 100 point mark.
Big Congrats to Super Saint Harry Copeland.
The kid has a shot at playing at the next level.
Three time All American Center back with good speed, a smooth Touch and a strong goal scoring record.
Oh yeah... He's also 6 feet 5 inches.
Congrats to all the All Americans.
ESPECIALLY THE ONES STILL PLAYING!!!!
CSS Massey Rating SOS the last 4 years:
2015: 268
2014: Not updated
2013: 322
2012: 321
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on December 04, 2015, 01:09:00 PM
CSS Massey Rating SOS the last 4 years:
2015: 268
2014: Not updated
2013: 322
2012: 321
JOKE. the highest honor anyone from there should receive is 2-3 team all Region.
It will be something special if Rutgers-Camden can make a run in the NJAC next year. I don't see where the goals will come without him in that formation...
In the common era of the NJAC, the team has still been a force. Even Stockton and Rowan could not sustain what Camden has been able to do (after their title appearances in '00 and '01)...
6 teams reach the FINAL FOUR from the conference, can Rutgers-Newark become a 7th in the near future?
With the resurgence of Kean, Stockton, and Rowan... the NJAC will continue to provide solid competition. My guess would be that Stockton is the next NJAC school to reach the ELITE 8 - FINAL FOUR in the next few years.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on December 04, 2015, 01:15:02 PM
It will be something special if Rutgers-Camden can make a run in the NJAC next year. I don't see where the goals will come without him in that formation...
In the common era of the NJAC, the team has still been a force. Even Stockton and Rowan could not sustain what Camden has been able to do (after their title appearances in '00 and '01)...
6 teams reach the FINAL FOUR from the conference, can Rutgers-Newark become a 7th in the near future?
With the resurgence of Kean, Stockton, and Rowan... the NJAC will continue to provide solid competition. My guess would be that Stockton is the next NJAC school to reach the ELITE 8 - FINAL FOUR in the next few years.
I agree RUC is in some trouble without Mike Ryan next year. I'm thinking they still make the playoffs but I don't see a NCAA appearance in their near future. I think Stockton with Colafranson next year has a pretty good chance but then there is always MSU who never fails to battle. it's going to be a war between Kean Rowan Montclair and Stockton.
I think Ryan deserves first team primarily because you can put him on any of the top 10 teams and that team could easily reach final four. Camdens talent dipped down since 2012 and 2013 and you can tell because he put Camden on his back after the 2013 class. imagine them without him...
The 2013 team was VERY solid, the box to box guys... Auleta and Balle with Grotti in the hole was an incredible front 6.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on December 04, 2015, 01:28:38 PM
The 2013 team was VERY solid, the box to box guys... Auleta and Balle with Grotti in the hole was an incredible front 6.
4/6 front guys should have been AA that year. the wide guys did their job defending and getting the ball to grotti and Ryan up top. it's a shame they didn't have one more year with Balle and Grotti there
I saw TCNJ when Williams beat them 3-0 in the Elite 8 in 1995 and then they went up to Williamstown and beat Williams 1-0 in the 118th minute off a goal from a sub that had not played all game in the Elite 8 in 1996 and went on to win the Title.
Those TCNJ teams between 1994-1997 were no joke and they sustained a very good run.
Quote from: Mr.Right on December 04, 2015, 02:32:52 PM
Damn these chicks need to work on PK's....Messiah bows out....
messiah misses 3 in a row with a couple chances of winning if they made it but failed. it's always good to see someone else other than messiah win
lol...You can book Williams as the 0215 NCAA Women's Champion..
Quote from: CovensCorner on December 04, 2015, 09:40:33 AM
The fact Pascual-Leone is not first team, is puzzling to me. He is/was arguably the best player in D3 soccer this year.
Seconded. Was happy to see Lanahan and Ocel get recognized - particularly the latter, he is an incredible talent. The word around Brandeis when he first came in was that "he could be even better than his brother." And while I would never make a comparison between the two, since they are two different players and his brother was an incredibly clutch player who was instrumental in the resurgence of Brandeis' program, I suppose the quote is true in terms of NSCAA All-American honors (Sam was a 3rd Team AA)! ;)
Quote from: igotthisfeeling on December 04, 2015, 10:00:42 AM
And JSPTB - Etown can't control how good the teams are in their conference each year...many teams in the Landmark under-performed greatly this year...Catholic (preseason favorite) Scranton, USMM all did not perform as expected...Drew had a good run til they played Etown. Unfortunately, Etown's conference SOS was under .500 which killed them. Then having the nscaa regional committee chair being from their league and the guy doesn't back Etown is just a slap in the face - but I guess he got intimidated by the other coaches on the committee.
And are you saying if Etown had gone 19-1 (loss being in the conference finals) that they would not be good enough to be in the NCAA tournament?
19-1 without winning the conference they should make it but they'd have to sweat it out. Unfortunately unless you are in one of the more powerful conferences from top to bottom you are going to be on the bubble without winning the conference. Also I believe their out of conference scheduling should be better. Yes you cannot predict another teams season, like Messiah this year but if you schedule better you don't have to rely on one team to help you. I also get the budget constraints for traveling but there are plenty teams not too far, NJAC etc that they should schedule 1 or 2 a year. It's all done and dusted but in the end they had one game that was a must win this year and they lost. Maybe next year that will be the chip on their shoulder and continue to grow on this season. D3 soccer is better with programs like Etown in the mix!!
Quote from: blooter442 on December 04, 2015, 02:52:42 PM
Quote from: CovensCorner on December 04, 2015, 09:40:33 AM
The fact Pascual-Leone is not first team, is puzzling to me. He is/was arguably the best player in D3 soccer this year.
Seconded. Was happy to see Lanahan and Ocel get recognized - particularly the latter, he is an incredible talent. The word around Brandeis when he first came in was that "he could be even better than his brother." And while I would never make a comparison between the two, since they are two different players and his brother was an incredibly clutch player who was instrumental in the resurgence of Brandeis' program, I suppose the quote is true in terms of NSCAA All-American honors (Sam was a 3rd Team AA)! ;)
Josh Ocel was being recruited to Boston College pretty heavily if I am not mistaken, however he and his family ultimately decided Brandeis because of his brother and experience at the school.
For purposes of NSCAA... Ashame you will not see the likes of E-town, Stockton, Middlebury in the Top 25. Not sure how they will be slotted in the D3soccer.com final poll
TOP 25
RV: Macalester, Washington (MO), RPI, TMC, Plattsburgh St, Eastern, CMU, Whitworth
25) W&L
24) Chicago
23) Redlands
22) Dickinson
21) Rutgers-Camden
20) Bowdoin
19) Ohio Wesleyan
18) UW-W
17) MSU
16) St. Olaf
15) DePauw
14) Tufts
13) SLU
12) MIT
11) Lycoming
10) F&M
9) Brandeis
8) Wheaton
7) Kenyon
6) Trinity
5) Haverford
4) Calvin
3) Oneonta St
2) Loras
1) Amherst
Congratulations to Amherst--and to the other three Final Four teams for great seasons, too.
Here's my thoughts on AA selections. I was glad to see Jacob Bender make it; doesn't matter to me if it's not first team. He had a terrific season, the single best season by a Falcon outside defender I can ever recall watching. At least a few times he was actually the best player on both ends of the field for either team. I extend my congratulations to him, with the hope that he does just as well next year on a team that improves enough to go make the dance and go deep into the tournament.
As for St. Scholastica, do they have any Americans on that team? I mean Americans, not All-Americans. All four AA guys are from England--are you serious? Do they have a British coach? Anyone have the back story on this?
I see two of the three AA's for Kenyon are also foreign players. Speaking of which, Amolo looked about as good as any attacker I've seen this year, and IMO he merits an AA honor. Ditto for Gilbert Waso from Etown--who is just a freshman. However, the best attacker I've seen from this whole list is Michael Ryan from RU-C. He's simply dynamite, better IMO than either Amolo or Waso. Then again, the two best players from Messiah in the past few years, Thompson and Ramirez, both of whom are now playing professionally, were not named at all last year (2014) or the previous year (2013), though Ramirez was second team in 2012. It's hard to see how that happens, when Kenyon has 3 first-team players this year. I'm not saying that those guys aren't deserving (I just said that Amolo certainly is, and I'm not implying anything about the other two guys), but I am saying that these things can be hard to figure out. Was Kenyon really as good this year as Messiah was in 2012-14? Or even better? I have my doubts, but obviously this is just one man's opinion...
Falconer, I think I can help you out. IMO Amolo is a very credible first team choice. I was shocked to see the other two. Seeing one of the other two on a third team would have seemed acceptable, but still overly generous. Again, IMO, the other two (Clougher and Barnes) had a few AA-moments but not AA-seasons.
I think it is almost impossible to get these teams right for these AA teams for NSCAA or D3.soccer.com. The voters (I assume) may have a a decent idea about players in their own conferences or regions, and they may know about some others around the country by reputation, but there is no way anyone (even those of us obsessed with D3 soccer who attempt to be inclusive of all of the regions) could have a really good sense without watching a ton of games in person and online.
And no, Kenyon was not as good as Messiah, 2012-14, but they were a legit contender and could have made some noise at a Final Four.
Logan Andryk's 182 total career points puts him 20th all-time.
Niko Giantsopoulos' 19 solo shutouts (season) takes over as most all-time.
Thomas Bull, 7718:44 career minutes places him 8th all-time among Goalkeepers.
Predictions on D3Soccer.com AA awards?
Coach of Year: Ryan Souders (Calvin), Serpone (Amherst), Rineer (Haverford)
Forward of Year: Sam Yarosh (Haverford), Tony Amolo (Kenyon), NPL (Amherst), Mike Ryan (Rutgers-Camden)
Midfielder of Year: Logan Andryk (MSOE), Austin Juniet (TMC), Dylan Williams (Oneonta St), Will Corkery (Haverford), Jeremiah Barnes (Kenyon), Damian Bziukiewicz (MSU), Josh Ocel (Brandeis), Sean Bingham (MIT), Marshall Hollingsworth (Wheaton),
Defender of the Year: Tom Carwile (Trinity), Harry Copeland (SLU), Conor Lanaghan (Brandeis)
GK of the Year: Thomas Bull (Amherst), Niko Giantsopoulos (Calvin), Sam Clougher (Kenyon)
Listed in order of preference...
Coach of the year should be going to Souders from Calvin, but I could see it going to Serpone, Rineer, or Byrne
Forward of the Year: Sam Yarosh, Centennial Player of the Year. Led conf in goals (17) and points (39). Mike Ryan was NJAC Offensive Player of the Year. Tony Amolo and NPL first teamers in the NCAC and NESCAC, respectively.
Midfielder of the Year: There are so many midfielders to choose from, but with Logan as a first team selection last year... 21G, 17A and led the nation in points this season. Austin Juniet could also feature in this slot as well... 16G and 23A for 3rd most points in the nation. Dylan Williams doesn't have the underlying stats of Goals and Assists, but was a big piece to the puzzle for Oneonta St.
Defender of the Year: I think Carwile is a lock for defender of the year: 18 clean sheets, 9 goals (7 game winners), 1 assist.
GK of the Year: I think that Bull is a lock for this spot as well. Came up big vs Oneonta St when needed, 16 shutouts on the year, and became all time solo shutout leader. Giantsopoulos from Calvin with 19 solo shutouts and final four appearance should be his only competition. Kenyon's Clougher and Trinity's Chad Margotta for consideration.
Final NSCAA Regular Season Poll
http://www.nscaa.com/rankings/5048
1 Amherst College 6 18-1-2
2 Loras College 11 18-5-1
3 SUNY Oneonta 8 19-3-2
4 Calvin College 1 23-1-1
5 Trinity University (Texas) 2 21-3-0
6 Haverford College 7 18-4-0
7 Wheaton College (Ill.) 12 15-4-3
8 Kenyon College 5 19-2-1
9 Brandeis University 3 18-3-1
10 Lycoming College 15 18-2-2
11 St. Lawrence University 13 16-4-2
12 Franklin & Marshall College RV 17-4-0
13 Massachusetts Insititute Of Technology 18 18-3-1
14 Montclair State University 4 19-3-1
15 St. Olaf College NR 15-8-1
16 Tufts University NR 11-5-3
17 DePauw University NR 12-4-5
18 Ohio Wesleyan University RV 16-5-2
19 University of Wisconsin-Whitewater 17 14-4-2
20 Macalester College 14 14-2-5
21 University of Redlands 20 17-4-2
22 Whitworth University 10 16-2-1
23 University Of Chicago NR 12-6-3
24 Washington University (Mo.) NR 12-4-4
25 Dickinson College 21 13-5-3
Also receiving votes: Stevens Institute Of Technology (18), Washington & Lee University (17), Thomas More College (14), Colorado College (14), Carthage College (12), Rutgers University-Camden (7), Bowdoin College (7), Ohio Northern University (5), Gordon College (5), Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute (3), University Of Scranton (1)
No E-town or Middlebury, but Colorado gets RV (14)... SMH??? I understand it favors teams that make the tournament, but how does Colorado also receive more votes than the NESCAC Champ or NJAC Champ?
Lycoming is good, but are they top 10 good? Hopefully this will aid in recruiting and the continued improvement of the program, revitalizing a rivalry in the MACC. What other sweet 16 teams would Lyco have beaten; DePauw? St. Olaf? Maybe MIT? For that reason I'd have them around 14-15th...
2015 MASSEY FINAL RATINGS
1 Amherst
2 SUNY Oneonta
3 Middlebury
4 Haverford
5 Calvin
6 Kenyon
7 Trinity TX
8 Loras
9 Tufts
10 Brandeis
11 MIT
12 Frank & Marsh
13 Bowdoin
14 Lycoming
15 Montclair St
16 Dickinson
17 St Lawrence
18 Elizabethtown
19 Williams
20 Chicago
21 Wesleyan CT
22 CT College
23 Brockport St
24 Gordon
25 Hobart-Smith
RV Redlands, Messiah, OWU, Wheaton IL, Cortland St, Rowan, Plattsburgh ST, RPI, UW-W, Stevens Tech, CWRU, St Olaf, Rutgers-Camden, Macalester, DePauw
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on December 08, 2015, 01:00:16 PM
No E-town or Middlebury, but Colorado gets RV (14)... SMH??? I understand it favors teams that make the tournament, but how does Colorado also receive more votes than the NESCAC Champ or NJAC Champ?
Lycoming is good, but are they top 10 good? Hopefully this will aid in recruiting and the continued improvement of the program, revitalizing a rivalry in the MACC. What other sweet 16 teams would Lyco have beaten; DePauw? St. Olaf? Maybe MIT? For that reason I'd have them around 14-15th...
Agree with you Lastguy....still shaking my head at Middlebury not getting an at Large Tournament bid, and now not even getting any votes...has to be their cupcake out of conference schedule, but this past fall Middlebury team was a very good team who could have won 2 or 3 games in the tournament, yet no votes at all even for 25th spot.
Will there be a final poll from D3Soccer?
d3soccer.com top 25 FINAL should be out in the next few days...
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on December 08, 2015, 04:03:13 PM
d3soccer.com top 25 FINAL should be out in the next few days...
Lets hope so ;D
Mr.Right, not sure Shooter is our man. The karma appears to be coming daily in pairs, as in we both are getting two each per day. Hmmmm.....who would be acting in concert? I have a feeling this is coming from closer to home....either the singularly focused Tufts duo (although I don't recall you saying anything even semi-controversial about Tufts or any of their players)...or some Amherst supporters (which would be sad because you have been complimentary and I've supported and defended Amherst 90% for more than two years). Whatever. The negative karma is fine, but I'd much rather posters express their complaints and engage material they want to contest so that there is an opportunity for debate and/or to clarify misconceptions about what has been written.
Quote from: NCAC New England on December 08, 2015, 07:36:16 PM
Mr.Right, not sure Shooter is our man. The karma appears to be coming daily in pairs, as in we both are getting two each per day. Hmmmm.....who would be acting in concert? I have a feeling this is coming from closer to home....either the singularly focused Tufts duo (although I don't recall you saying anything even semi-controversial about Tufts or any of their players)...or some Amherst supporters (which would be sad because you have been complimentary and I've supported and defended Amherst 90% for more than two years). Whatever. The negative karma is fine, but I'd much rather posters express their complaints and engage material they want to contest so that there is an opportunity for debate and/or to clarify misconceptions about what has been written.
I don't know if I am one of the so-called Tufs duo you refer to but I have always had a cordial relationship with Mr. Right and I think it's recipricol. So, there goes you theory..... Anyway, you seem to be really worried about it. Be happy.
Quote from: Nutmeg on December 08, 2015, 08:47:10 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on December 08, 2015, 07:36:16 PM
Mr.Right, not sure Shooter is our man. The karma appears to be coming daily in pairs, as in we both are getting two each per day. Hmmmm.....who would be acting in concert? I have a feeling this is coming from closer to home....either the singularly focused Tufts duo (although I don't recall you saying anything even semi-controversial about Tufts or any of their players)...or some Amherst supporters (which would be sad because you have been complimentary and I've supported and defended Amherst 90% for more than two years). Whatever. The negative karma is fine, but I'd much rather posters express their complaints and engage material they want to contest so that there is an opportunity for debate and/or to clarify misconceptions about what has been written.
I don't know if I am one of the so-called Tufs duo you refer to but I have always had a cordial relationship with Mr. Right and I think it's recipricol. So, there goes you theory..... Anyway, you seem to be really worried about it. Be happy.
Not worried, more curious. If you read carefully you'll see that I doubted the first guess precisely because I hadn't seen any reason for ill will as far as Tufts supporters and Mr.Right are concerned. And as I also explained, I stated that knowing the complaint, aside from the nuisance of the karma, would allow for more discussion and perhaps clarifications that would permit whoever feels aggrieved or unpleasantly annoyed to be soothed by further explanation (or not).
I have been saying for years this whole Karma thing is ridiculous and since this D3 site will not get rid of it the best thing to do is this...
Give every user the ability to see who has given you positive and / or negative karma. This way it forces people to really think twice before giving karma or risk being brought into a discussion of why the negative karma is given. This is to your point of forcing users into a "discussion" on what they are not agreeing with you about your post. It also prevents users from blindly logging in and just sticking it to people who really care about such matters of karma. Since D3 Boards sites changes about as much as the gift I get from my nephew every year for Christmas I would expect none of this to change .
Other option is to push the 24 hour limit to 72 hours to let people cool down and "forget" what it is got them upset in the first place.
Quote from: NCAC New England on December 08, 2015, 07:36:16 PM
Mr.Right, not sure Shooter is our man. The karma appears to be coming daily in pairs, as in we both are getting two each per day. Hmmmm.....who would be acting in concert? I have a feeling this is coming from closer to home....either the singularly focused Tufts duo (although I don't recall you saying anything even semi-controversial about Tufts or any of their players)...or some Amherst supporters (which would be sad because you have been complimentary and I've supported and defended Amherst 90% for more than two years). Whatever. The negative karma is fine, but I'd much rather posters express their complaints and engage material they want to contest so that there is an opportunity for debate and/or to clarify misconceptions about what has been written.
Wrong again. There have been several times that I should have given you a negative karma and did not. I even mentioned it in previous posts. I should do it again for your false accusations. And, for what its worth, I have no problem with RIGHT.......
If you reach a certain negative number, are you given a timeout and asked to sit in the corner? Or even worse, banned from posting?
I rarely follow my +/-, but when it was mentioned last week I noticed I received one negative hit. Let me just tell you, I really didn't sleep well that night... Cried in my pillow the entire time while tossing and turning.
If you give negative karma, sack up and be a man; tell the person or start a debate instead.
Quote from: Mr.Right on December 09, 2015, 10:53:12 AM
I have been saying for years this whole Karma thing is ridiculous and since this D3 site will not get rid of it the best thing to do is this...
...just pay no attention to karma. You don't know who gave it and for which post, so for the life of me I can't figure out why anyone cares and spends anytime concerned about it (who gave it? why?). The only time I ever think about karma is when someone else complains or wonders about why their negative karma went up, and I have no idea if I've gotten more karma because I have no idea what I had before.
Whoever gave you guys negative karma is probably enjoying this string of posts; I'd suggest a new tact going forward: completely ignore karma. If you like what someone posted enough to want them to know you liked it, simply say so in the post. If you disagree with someone or didn't like something some one posted, say so respectfully in a post, preferrable with your reasons.
Well I usually pay no attention to it until it has been brought up. Your answer is the same useless dribble we hear everytime someone complains about it.
IF YOU IGNORE IT THAN HERE'S AN IDEA....GET RID OF THE WHOLE SYSTEM. I have given the same answer in the past as you just have..oh ignore it, oh ignore it.....Well frankly I am sick and tired of having to think about ignoring it. If everyone is ignoring it then GET RID OF IT. My point was since D3Boards will not get rid of it at least FIX IT with my plan which you haphazardly IGNORED.
Call it useless dribble, but it works for me. And somehow I manage to ignore it without even thinking about ignoring it.
Question: Have you ever contacted Pat Coleman (the message board's administrator) about it to suggest a change or its removal? (Although, I don't see an obvious way to contact him besides searching for his profile (http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?action=profile;u=6) or finding one of his posts and PM'ing him) I don't know why he opted to activate this feature and I have no idea how other posters in the other sprots forums feel about it. I don't use it or care about it, but it also doesn't bother/annoy me that it's there. So it truly makes no difference to me, but if it bothers some of you, at least take the time to make a suggestion to Pat.
By the way Mr. Right, how does one "haphazardly" ignore something? Regardless, I didn't ignore your plan to "fix" it, I just had nothing to add as I would agree that any system like this should allow you to see who gave the karma and for which post. Since I would probably still not be all that interested in using it or paying attention to it, I didn't feel the need to comment on your fix. But hopefully it makes you feel better that I have now acknowledged your plan to fix it, and better still, I agree. Too bad I don't do the karma thing, you may have had +karma coming your way!!!
I agree with Mr.Right. If the "karma" system is deemed to be of no value, and the recommendation is simply to ignore it, then why does it continue to exist? Why introduce and/or maintain a feature on the site that we're told to simply not notice, and that we're considered petty for raising questions about? FW, I'm pretty sure that if you went from +27/-5 to +27/-35 over the next month you would notice and at least wonder what was going on and who might be having a problem with you and for what. As for the recommendations, I would suggest that the we underscore FW's last sentence in his post -- just tell someone you like his or her post and likewise simply state when you disagree and why.
I write the above while fully aware that I was a primary offender around this time last year, with the difference being that something happened that took on a life of its own and the posters involved were pretty obvious. It seems the vulnerability for this sort of thing is greatest at the end of the season when emotions about our teams, how things ended, and how our favored players are being treated in "awards season" run high.
BF, I thought I was pretty clear that my initial gut instinct was probably wrong precisely because I had seen no animus between the Tufts supporters and Mr.Right. You've mentioned several times now that you have showed restraint when you apparently believe you would have been entitled/justified in dinging me. I'm sure you realize that cuts both ways. The majority of your posts annoy the heck out of me and yet for this whole season I have restrained myself in the karma department.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on December 09, 2015, 01:46:55 PM
Call it useless dribble, but it works for me. And somehow I manage to ignore it without even thinking about ignoring it.
Question: Have you ever contacted Pat Coleman (the message board's administrator) about it to suggest a change or its removal? (Although, I don't see an obvious way to contact him besides searching for his profile (http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?action=profile;u=6) or finding one of his posts and PM'ing him) I don't know why he opted to activate this feature and I have no idea how other posters in the other sprots forums feel about it. I don't use it or care about it, but it also doesn't bother/annoy me that it's there. So it truly makes no difference to me, but if it bothers some of you, at least take the time to make a suggestion to Pat.
By the way Mr. Right, how does one "haphazardly" ignore something? Regardless, I didn't ignore your plan to "fix" it, I just had nothing to add as I would agree that any system like this should allow you to see who gave the karma and for which post. Since I would probably still not be all that interested in using it or paying attention to it, I didn't feel the need to comment on your fix. But hopefully it makes you feel better that I have now acknowledged your plan to fix it, and better still, I agree. Too bad I don't do the karma thing, you may have had +karma coming your way!!!
You haphazardly read my post ignoring my point. Yea I'll mention it to Pat in my monthly spanking from him. The best way to contact him is to mis-behave
Just gave everyone +1 Karma. Hope this makes your day a little brighter! :)
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on December 08, 2015, 03:38:17 PM
Will there be a final poll from D3Soccer?
There usually is. Surprised it's not out yet but it should be out by tomorrow I would imagine. Or so I hope!
From what I read previously posted about the Karma I don't think you should let it bother you. If it does well then that sucks but it means nothing realistically. If people ignore it then so be it but proposing to get rid of it is also silly. I doubt Pat or any other administrators expected people to get this upset about fake points...just my thoughts. Would be nice to know who gave you +/- karma though. Maybe something they can work on down the road.
NCAC New England, I honestly never look at the karma (until someone like you starts talking about it again), so mine could rise to -35 and I might not notice for weeks. For example, the other day you posted that my -karma went up. I couldn't confirm or deny that because I had no idea what it was previously.
(At the risk of ignoring something else Mr. Right has to say on the matter) my last word on the matter is . . .
Who besides other fellow posters has recommended ignoring the karma feature?* Has anyone administering the message board communicated that? Asking me (or any other poster who recommends ignoring it) why it still exists doesn't direct the question to someone who can answer that question or do something about it. I have yet to see someone who controls the existence and configurations of the karma feature saying to ignore the feature and insinuating pettiness for questioning it. Personally, as a fellow poster, I wouldn't call you "petty" for question the karma (some of the anonymous giving of negative karma might fit that description), but what I will say is that both (a) the giving out of negative karma without being man enough to own up to it and discuss why, and (b) the getting bothered by receiving that anonymous negative karma) just seems silly to me. But that's just me. To each his own.
* - And I'm not saying ignore it, I'm saying ignore it IF it is botheriing you.
I find Karma entertaining. I just don't get upset about it. It's really not a big deal but it does provide a small amount of feedback. Do some people abuse it? Sure. I know if I post something in some of the football boards I tend to get tagged. That's just how those boards are.
I do, generally, find relative karma levels to be indicative of a person's abrasiveness. That in itself is useful if you feel like engaging them in a conversation. For example I usually find someone with a negative karma imbalance just isn't worth getting involved with. That doesn't mean their posts don't have value, it just means disagreeing with them usually results in irritation instead of discourse.
I also find two kinds of people with negative karma on the boards. Those who complain incessantly about it feeling persecuted even though they generally irritate people with abrasive posts, and those who enjoy collecting negative karma by purposely posting abrasive posts. Either way, there is generally a reason they end up with a large imbalance. A sniper or two won't matter. To get an imbalance you generally have to be an irritating person to engage with.
All:
Without naming names and getting into details, reasons, excuses, forgetfulness, etc. that may or may not be self-incriminating, there will be a final D3soccer.com Top 25 poll. It will be late. Hopefully Friday.
Quote from: Christan Shirk on December 09, 2015, 03:02:42 PM
All:
Without naming names and getting into details, reasons, excuses, forgetfulness, etc. that may or may not be self-incriminating, there will be a final D3soccer.com Top 25 poll. It will be late. Hopefully Friday.
No need to apologize! We appreciate all your time and effort you put into the website all season! Looking forward to the poll.
Jeez, I just noticed I have 8 more negatives than I did 2 weeks ago, huh. I think it's kind of entertaining to see people get so bent out of shape about it. Do you all really care that much, I mean we don't even use our real names, we have avatars and yet the fur on your neck is still getting raised. I don;t recall anyone having difficulty telling me how they felt about a post, so if anonymously clicking a "applause" or "smite" make you fell omnipotent than by all means click away.
Stuff happens. Back in the day I tended to get most of my -k from people supporting my alma mater who were mad I wasn't drinking the koolaid and admitting there was a chance my team might lose a game every now and then (more on other subboards like football than here).
Posted this in another thread, however I didn't know if you guys only checked up on specific topics or not. So anyway:
A recent former player from UWO, Daniel Kobin, has put out a video for his final undergraduate project before graduating in a week or so. His four years spanned from 2011-2014. Thought you guys might be interested as it's really well put together.
https://www.facebook.com/dannykobin/videos/10153785434576419/?pnref=story
Is it just me, or was Amherst on their heels for the final 80 minutes of the game vs Oneonta St?
The Lord Jeffs have definitely been a top three program over the last 4 years (#2 behind Messiah 12', 13'), but could argue for #1 considering overall record, conference championships, and tourney runs. Given the senior leadership, anything but a Final Four appearance would have been an extreme underachievement this season. Amherst should be able to reload with ease and be primed for another run in 2016.
I'm also looking forward to Williams and Middlebury for 2016... I'm sure that Middlebury already has their schedule 90% set, and would hope they schedule some strong out of conference foes.
Amherst
Middlebury
Williams
Tufts
Bowdoin
Wesleyan
Connecticut
Trinity
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Where does Messiah 2011-2014 class fit in all time? Even with 1-0 losses to Neumann and Tufts in 2011 and 2014, I believe this to be their best class ever, as well as one of the best in NCAA history. Had Messiah beaten Tufts, they would have likely 3 peated as National Champions with a record of 89-2-5.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on December 10, 2015, 11:10:30 AM
Where does Messiah 2011-2014 class fit in all time? Even with 1-0 losses to Neumann and Tufts in 2011 and 2014, I believe this to be their best class ever, as well as one of the best in NCAA history. Had Messiah beaten Tufts, they would have likely 3 peated as National Champions with a record of 89-2-5.
Best Class Ever in D3 History. Hands down.
And the 2013 team is
arguably the best ever team we have seen(as discussed and debated in previous posts).
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on December 10, 2015, 11:10:30 AM
Is it just me, or was Amherst on their heels for the final 80 minutes of the game vs Oneonta St?
Oneonta looked dangerous in areas just outside the box, but this observation might be a bit hyperbolic?
Amherst outshot Oneonta, 16-14: 5-3 in the first half, matched them 6-6 in the second, hung close at 3-4 in OT1 and went 2-1 in OT2.
Oneonta GK had to make one more save than Amherst's GK. Teams were even on CKs.
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on December 10, 2015, 01:57:13 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on December 10, 2015, 11:10:30 AM
Where does Messiah 2011-2014 class fit in all time? Even with 1-0 losses to Neumann and Tufts in 2011 and 2014, I believe this to be their best class ever, as well as one of the best in NCAA history. Had Messiah beaten Tufts, they would have likely 3 peated as National Champions with a record of 89-2-5.
Best Class Ever in D3 History. Hands down.
And the 2013 team is arguably the best ever team we have seen(as discussed and debated in previous posts).
100% accurate. I don't think messiah will ever be that good again
Quote from: Christan Shirk on December 09, 2015, 03:02:42 PM
All:
Without naming names and getting into details, reasons, excuses, forgetfulness, etc. that may or may not be self-incriminating, there will be a final D3soccer.com Top 25 poll. It will be late. Hopefully Friday.
Friday....Monday....same thing lol ;D
Friday the 18th...
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on December 14, 2015, 01:39:44 PM
Friday the 18th...
Yeah that's what I figured but just assumed last week that it would be the 11th since that was the same week it came out last season. The anticipation is killing me! ;)
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on December 04, 2015, 01:09:00 PM
CSS Massey Rating SOS the last 4 years:
2015: 268
2014: Not updated
2013: 322
2012: 321
2014: 339
Colorado ranked? Smh
Atleast give St. Olaf or W&L some love. And the Champs from the power conferences should also be ranked; Bowdoin, Camden. Other than that... looks good to me.
Not a good showing in the final poll. What a mess. :'(
Looks like the NSCAA wins this round.
As unfair as it may be that Colorado, Middlebury, and Etown not making NCAA's may be...they should not be ranked in the final rankings if they did not make the tournament. Just my personal opinion.
The top 6 is pretty solid and clear cut. That was the easy part. One big flaw that stands out to me is Ohio Wesleyan JUMPING to #12 from #16. They lost in the second round of NCAA's with a 16-5-2 record...meanwhile a team like Lycoming who was previously #12 in the final regular season poll at 16-1-2 finishes the season 18-2-2 and lost to the eventual national champions in the third round DROPS to #13?? If someone from the rankings committee has any logic on that I would love to hear it. Christian? Ryan? Come on guys that's just poor. Obviously I am bias being a middle atlantic regional fan which is why I am okay with F&M ahead of Lycoming in this poll and Lycoming ahead of F&M in the other poll because they are very similar in their resumes. But jumping a team 4 spots after going 1-1 in the tournament and 5 overall losses then punishing a team for losing in a better round to the champions and finishing with 2 losses? Really? Just not logical at all.
The next MAJOR flaw, as LastGuy and Shooter previously mentioned, is the acceptance of Etown, Middlebury, Colorado, Conn. College, CWR, and Kean into the rankings. If they did not make the NCAA tournament then they should not be ranked. If anything put them in the RV section, but Etown, Middlebury, and Colorado should not be stealing places from teams like St. Olaf, Chicago, Macalester, Wash. U., Wash. Lee, Stevens, RPI, CMU, Gordon, Camden, Bowdin, Plattsburgh, etc. The list of omissions goes on and on.
Another big question mark goes back to my first point I made. So St. Lawrence moves from #20 to #15 after losing in the third round to Haverford and finishes with a 16-4-2 record. They entered 14-3-2. But Lycoming loses in the third round by the same margin to the eventual CHAMPS(note that St. Lawrence lost to an elite 8 team) and drops a spot? They entered with a better record than St. Lawrence finished with! I'm just so lost on the thought process that goes into some of the placements of teams? MIT is in the same boat! Jumps 5 spots in the same scenario. I don't get how losing in the third round to teams who didn't even make the final by a 2-0 margin makes a team jump 5 spots but the team who lost 2-0 to the eventual champions drops a spot? Bizarre.
How St. Olaf is not ranked is beyond me? Sure they have 7 or 8 losses but they also made it to the third round and was 1 of 16 teams left in the country. They HAVE TO BE at least 25th. Have to be. Feel very sad for them being omitted after the great run they had.
Very surprised that Montclair St. is in the top 15 let alone almost cracking the top 10 after losing in the second round.
Scranton not even RV?? Really? They beat your Etown team who you have ranked 20th AND advanced to the 2nd round NCAA's!
UWW barely gets out of the first round then loses in the second round but is ahead of 2 third round teams in DePauw and Tufts(and St. Olaf who isn't ranked). Makes sense right?
I know I seem tense above and I am with some stuff but I want you to know that, like I said before in previous posts, we appreciate the rankings and all you do for the website. I am just hoping to get some answers and provide a spark for some good conversation and debate. But usually I tend to agree more with the D3Soccer poll than the NSCAA but that has switched for me for this year. Not sure if new people were invited to the rankings committee or if people are pushing their own agenda but there are some serious errors and omissions in my eyes with these final rankings.
Preach it MAF ^^^^
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on December 15, 2015, 03:40:48 PM
Preach it MAF ^^^^
I don't necessarily have any issue with the D3soccer top 25, but as much as I usually have qualms with the NSCAA poll I did find it to be pretty on-point this year, particularly from the later weeks of October onward.
My own personal belief — a team should have to make it to the round with X teams left in order to be ranked X or higher
at the end of the season. Just out of principle. I think that saying Team A is better than Team B even though Team B has a better record is justifiable perhaps in September and October, but not in November when one-and-done becomes the motto.
A great example: Brandeis. They were a Sweet 16 team, and while No. 8 in the D3soccer poll isn't an outlandish rank, that they didn't make the Elite 8 yet were still ranked ahead of Wheaton was something I disagreed with. Personally, I would have flip-flopped Brandeis and Wheaton, so it was not an egregious mistake. In another forum, I argued that No. 9 in the NSCAA poll was the perfect ranking for Brandeis, as I didn't think they were quite an Elite 8 team, yet I think they were better than any other Sweet 16 team (MIT, SLU, Tufts, etc.) based on their body of work throughout the season. Now, one could make the argument that one of those teams was more talented than Brandeis, and I wouldn't reject it, but I'd have Brandeis above a team that finished 11-5-3 (Tufts) or an identical 18-3-1 with a significantly weaker schedule (MIT). SLU's 16-4-2 is comparable, so I would imagine the argument there would be stronger, but would still take the Judges. Disclaimer: could just be the homer in me.
Regardless, I think a team should make the Sweet 16 to be ranked 16th or higher, the Elite 8 to be 8th or higher, etc. Ultimately, there may be more talented teams out there, and things could flip-flop based on overachieving/underachieving squads, but hypothetical situations should never be given much credence when the facts (rounds that a team makes it to) are right there for all to see.
While I believe that the points you two have made have been spot on, there is one situation that comes to mind that could make for an interesting case.
Teams A, B, C, D are in the Final Four.
Team A beats Team B 1-0 in OT.
Team C beats Team D 2-1.
So then for the title, Team A beats Team C 5-1.
Would you automatically rank Team C better than Team B, despite the lopsided loss?
Just something to consider.
Comparison: D3soccer.com and NSCAA final rankings
(Rankings in parantheses list D3Soccer.com first, NSCAA second)
Ranked by D3soccer.com, unranked by NSCAA: Middlebury (19/--), Elizabethtown (20/--), Thomas More (22/RV), Colorado College (23/RV).
Ranked by NSCAA, unranked by D3soccer.com: St. Olaf (RV/15), Macalester (RV/20), Chicago (RV/23), Washington U. (RV/24)
Difference in ranking for 19 teams is 3 spots or less.
Biggest differences:
Middlebury (19/--)
Elizabethtown (20/--)
St. Olaf - 14 spots (RV/15)
Macalester - 10 spots (RV/20)
Washington U. - 8 spots (23/RV)
Thomas More - 6.5 spots (22/RV)
Ohio Wesleyan - 6 spots (12/18)
Colorado College - 5.5 spots (23/RV)
St. Lawrence - 4 spots (15/11)
Some thoughts/reactions/questions . . .
• With only 15 first place votes indicated, some of the unexpected movement may be due to some panelists not voting and thus creating a little inconsistency/disconnect from prior polls.
• What's the point of the NSCAA and D3soccer.com doing rankings if they can only rank the teams the NCAA ranking/selection commitee says they can rank? How do you ask someone to to give their personal opinion (cast a ballot), but then put restrictions on their opinion? I disagree that only NCAA participants should be eligible for the rankings and that winners of certain conference tournaments must be ranked. Rankings should be independent opinions.
• Making only NCAA participants eligible for the rankings is just a short step away from tying the rankings into tournament finish (which is basically what the NSCAA does in practice even if not by presctription) and soon you have something more akin to standings rather than rankings/opinions.
• If you "have" to be ranked because of a certain advancement in the tournament (regardless of the full season and body of work), how far do you want to take the relationship between tournament finish and rankings? Does a Messiah (2011) or Ohio Wesleyan (2013), who were upset and went one-and-out, all of a sudden no longer merit Top 25 consideration (or, at best, just 20 to 25) due to tournament finish despite being undefeated and ranked #1 entering the tournament? Not sure you can have it both ways--if you "have" to reward tournament advancement regardless of the overall body of work, then don't you "have" to punish the lack of advancement regardless of the overall body of work?
• Also, not all tournament brackets/pathes to the Final Four are created equal which is a big reason I can't even begin to understand or accept tying the rankings into tournament finish. Deserving Top 10 tens can meet other deservingTop 10 teams in the second round or Sweet 16 already. Only one can advance. That shouldn't disqualify the other from being considered for the Top 10. Most think it's critical and absolutely necessary to consider SOS when evaluating a team's record/win pct., so why should that change when evaluating tournament results? Why should the strength of the opponent, the scoreline, the competitiveness/non-competitiveness of matches no longer be considered for tournament results, and instead just blindly allow tournament advancement to tier teams for the rankings.
• Conference tournament winners can be a result of upsets, one team catching fire for a weekend and/or a favorite having an off weekend, etc. I cannot agree that winning a post-season tournament of a power conference should gaurantee a team a Top 25 vote.
• Sound like some of you think the final Top 25 should be a November 2015 Top 25 not a 2015 Top 25. And that's on top of the issue of what the Top 25 is should be trying to capture, measure, and indicate. Is it about who has performed the best over the course of the season to date, who is performing the best at the moment, who you think is the best even if results haven't always reflected that (i.e. who would your money be on if they played this week at a nuetral site), etc. There are different ways to look at is, and none are necessary right while the others are wrong. Throw in the NCAA tournament finish, and you are going to have a variety of perspectives on what the a final Top 25 should be communicating and thus how to vote for it.
• A poll is a collection of opinions. Opinions are subjective. Seems like there's a lot of suggestions for moving more in the direction of curbing opinion and subjectivety. If you want more formulaic outcomes, you can do rankings that way, but not a true poll-based ranking. Not saying all opinions are going to be better than a formula, just saying that a poll is a poll. You can't start putting a lot of rules and limitations on it and still have a true poll.
Quote from: Puerco Espin on December 15, 2015, 04:55:47 PM
While I believe that the points you two have made have been spot on, there is one situation that comes to mind that could make for an interesting case.
Teams A, B, C, D are in the Final Four.
Team A beats Team B 1-0 in OT.
Team C beats Team D 2-1.
So then for the title, Team A beats Team C 5-1.
Would you automatically rank Team C better than Team B, despite the lopsided loss?
Just something to consider.
Good question, and certainly an interesting situation. Personally, I would, based on my own aforementioned principle, simply because C made it to the final and thus, losing the final, is the #2 team in the country. That said, you could certainly make a case for ranking B over C for the reasons you mentioned, and I wouldn't say it was invalid. Could really go either way.
Now, if say A won the final over C 1-0, B lost its semi to A 1-0 in OT, but D lost to C 5-1. Even without a third-place game as is customary in WC, Euros, etc., I think there would be an easier decision to make for #3 vs #4. ;)
Quote from: Flying Weasel on December 15, 2015, 05:21:55 PM
• Sound like some of you think the final Top 25 should be a November 2015 Top 25 not a 2015 Top 25. And that's on top of the issue of what the Top 25 is should be trying to capture, measure, and indicate. Is it about who has performed the best over the course of the season to date, who is performing the best at the moment, who you think is the best even if results haven't always reflected that (i.e. who would your money be on if they played this week at a nuetral site), etc. There are different ways to look at is, and none are necessary right while the others are wrong. Throw in the NCAA tournament finish, and you are going to have a variety of perspectives on what the a final Top 25 should be communicating and thus how to vote for it.
I still maintain my position that NCAAs should be tied into the rankings, simply because not doing so is too idealistic
in my humble opinion. However, I completely agree with the above point, and think the balance of best over the season, best at the moment, and best even if results haven't reflected that, are additional considerations on which valid arguments — all of which can differ in thesis — can be based upon and still be considered sound arguments.
Not sure I exactly expressed this in my longer post above, but what could possibly be the purpose of a final Top 25 ranking if it has to strictly follow tournament finish (i.e. champ has to be No. 1, runner-up has to be No. 2, and so on). If I want to know how teams did in the tournament, I simply look at the tournament results or brackets. What need of a ranking do I have if that's mainly all it will tell me?
Soccer more than any other sport is prone to one-off results not being reflective of who the better team is. Is Wesleyan better than Amherst just because they beat them in the NESCAC tournament? Should Wesleyan have been ranked higher than Amherst in the Week 9 Top 25? I don't think anyone thinks so. So why with the NCAA tournament should a single result (who advanced, who didn't in a one-off) dictate ranking?
I am very surprised at some of the perspectives on this.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on December 15, 2015, 05:37:00 PM
Soccer more than any other sport is prone to one-off results not being reflective of who the better team is.
Will say that regardless of my viewpoint that I 100% agree with this.
My beef is with the 16-RV. A solid team with a tough draw in round of 32 ends up RV or NR, whereas a weaker team with a more favorable draw catapults in these final rankings.
UWW ahead of Tufts (A team who had a top 5 SOS)
DePauw at 17? A team that was 3rd in Conf standings and didn't win NCAC title?
Whitworth at 21? Weak SOS and bounced in 1st round by unranked Redlands?
TMC at 23 after being bounced in the first round? How are they ahead of Chicago (RV) if there is so much stock in how these teams tier in a sense from tournament results?
In reference to Lyco, I think 13-14 is on point. I believe Massey had them at 14.
Had to look at Massey:
DePauw at 40.
TMC at 41.
Colorado at 43.
Whitworth at 54.
Middlebury, Bowdoin, Williams, Conn, Wesleyan all highly ranked as they should be, because of the strength of conference.
Cinderella St Olaf at 38, Macalester at 39.
Quote from: blooter442 on December 15, 2015, 04:52:13 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on December 15, 2015, 03:40:48 PM
Preach it MAF ^^^^
I don't necessarily have any issue with the D3soccer top 25, but as much as I usually have qualms with the NSCAA poll I did find it to be pretty on-point this year, particularly from the later weeks of October onward.
My own personal belief — a team should have to make it to the round with X teams left in order to be ranked X or higher at the end of the season. Just out of principle. I think that saying Team A is better than Team B even though Team B has a better record is justifiable perhaps in September and October, but not in November when one-and-done becomes the motto.
A great example: Brandeis. They were a Sweet 16 team, and while No. 8 in the D3soccer poll isn't an outlandish rank, that they didn't make the Elite 8 yet were still ranked ahead of Wheaton was something I disagreed with. Personally, I would have flip-flopped Brandeis and Wheaton, so it was not an egregious mistake. In another forum, I argued that No. 9 in the NSCAA poll was the perfect ranking for Brandeis, as I didn't think they were quite an Elite 8 team, yet I think they were better than any other Sweet 16 team (MIT, SLU, Tufts, etc.) based on their body of work throughout the season. Now, one could make the argument that one of those teams was more talented than Brandeis, and I wouldn't reject it, but I'd have Brandeis above a team that finished 11-5-3 (Tufts) or an identical 18-3-1 with a significantly weaker schedule (MIT). SLU's 16-4-2 is comparable, so I would imagine the argument there would be stronger, but would still take the Judges. Disclaimer: could just be the homer in me.
Regardless, I think a team should make the Sweet 16 to be ranked 16th or higher, the Elite 8 to be 8th or higher, etc. Ultimately, there may be more talented teams out there, and things could flip-flop based on overachieving/underachieving squads, but hypothetical situations should never be given much credence when the facts (rounds that a team makes it to) are right there for all to see.
++++Karma. Well said and I agree 100%!
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on December 16, 2015, 12:18:24 AM
My beef is with the 16-RV. A solid team with a tough draw in round of 32 ends up RV or NR, whereas a weaker team with a more favorable draw catapults in these final rankings.
UWW ahead of Tufts (A team who had a top 5 SOS)
DePauw at 17? A team that was 3rd in Conf standings and didn't win NCAC title?
Whitworth at 21? Weak SOS and bounced in 1st round by unranked Redlands?
TMC at 23 after being bounced in the first round? How are they ahead of Chicago (RV) if there is so much stock in how these teams tier in a sense from tournament results?
In reference to Lyco, I think 13-14 is on point. I believe Massey had them at 14.
I agree with you as well LastGuy. And Lycoming 10-14 is fair IMO.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on December 15, 2015, 05:21:55 PM
Comparison: D3soccer.com and NSCAA final rankings
(Rankings in parantheses list D3Soccer.com first, NSCAA second)
Ranked by D3soccer.com, unranked by NSCAA: Middlebury (19/--), Elizabethtown (20/--), Thomas More (22/RV), Colorado College (23/RV).
Ranked by NSCAA, unranked by D3soccer.com: St. Olaf (RV/15), Macalester (RV/20), Chicago (RV/23), Washington U. (RV/24)
Difference in ranking for 19 teams is 3 spots or less.
Biggest differences:
Middlebury (19/--)
Elizabethtown (20/--)
St. Olaf - 14 spots (RV/15)
Macalester - 10 spots (RV/20)
Washington U. - 8 spots (23/RV)
Thomas More - 6.5 spots (22/RV)
Ohio Wesleyan - 6 spots (12/18)
Colorado College - 5.5 spots (23/RV)
St. Lawrence - 4 spots (15/11)
Some thoughts/reactions/questions . . .
• With only 15 first place votes indicated, some of the unexpected movement may be due to some panelists not voting and thus creating a little inconsistency/disconnect from prior polls.
• What's the point of the NSCAA and D3soccer.com doing rankings if they can only rank the teams the NCAA ranking/selection commitee says they can rank? How do you ask someone to to give their personal opinion (cast a ballot), but then put restrictions on their opinion? I disagree that only NCAA participants should be eligible for the rankings and that winners of certain conference tournaments must be ranked. Rankings should be independent opinions.
• Making only NCAA participants eligible for the rankings is just a short step away from tying the rankings into tournament finish (which is basically what the NSCAA does in practice even if not by presctription) and soon you have something more akin to standings rather than rankings/opinions.
• If you "have" to be ranked because of a certain advancement in the tournament (regardless of the full season and body of work), how far do you want to take the relationship between tournament finish and rankings? Does a Messiah (2011) or Ohio Wesleyan (2013), who were upset and went one-and-out, all of a sudden no longer merit Top 25 consideration (or, at best, just 20 to 25) due to tournament finish despite being undefeated and ranked #1 entering the tournament? Not sure you can have it both ways--if you "have" to reward tournament advancement regardless of the overall body of work, then don't you "have" to punish the lack of advancement regardless of the overall body of work?
• Also, not all tournament brackets/pathes to the Final Four are created equal which is a big reason I can't even begin to understand or accept tying the rankings into tournament finish. Deserving Top 10 tens can meet other deservingTop 10 teams in the second round or Sweet 16 already. Only one can advance. That shouldn't disqualify the other from being considered for the Top 10. Most think it's critical and absolutely necessary to consider SOS when evaluating a team's record/win pct., so why should that change when evaluating tournament results? Why should the strength of the opponent, the scoreline, the competitiveness/non-competitiveness of matches no longer be considered for tournament results, and instead just blindly allow tournament advancement to tier teams for the rankings.
• Conference tournament winners can be a result of upsets, one team catching fire for a weekend and/or a favorite having an off weekend, etc. I cannot agree that winning a post-season tournament of a power conference should gaurantee a team a Top 25 vote.
• Sound like some of you think the final Top 25 should be a November 2015 Top 25 not a 2015 Top 25. And that's on top of the issue of what the Top 25 is should be trying to capture, measure, and indicate. Is it about who has performed the best over the course of the season to date, who is performing the best at the moment, who you think is the best even if results haven't always reflected that (i.e. who would your money be on if they played this week at a nuetral site), etc. There are different ways to look at is, and none are necessary right while the others are wrong. Throw in the NCAA tournament finish, and you are going to have a variety of perspectives on what the a final Top 25 should be communicating and thus how to vote for it.
• A poll is a collection of opinions. Opinions are subjective. Seems like there's a lot of suggestions for moving more in the direction of curbing opinion and subjectivety. If you want more formulaic outcomes, you can do rankings that way, but not a true poll-based ranking. Not saying all opinions are going to be better than a formula, just saying that a poll is a poll. You can't start putting a lot of rules and limitations on it and still have a true poll.
I'm sorry FW but I disagree with most of your assessment. I see your viewpoint with it being a total body of work for 2015 not just based off of the NCAA tournament finish. But then why even play the NCAA tournament if it's not going to matter how you finish? There is no way that St. Olaf should not be in the top 25 after their NCAA performance. No way. If you disagree you are wrong I am telling you that right now. I watched them twice and they were a very solid team to my surprise. 8 losses yeah sure but they clicked at the right time and had a great run. How they aren't in the top 25 is ABSURD!!!! They do deserve to be ahead of Etown, Colorado, Middlebury, etc.
Same thing that Blooter referenced with Brandeis ahead of Wheaton. IMO Wheaton is head over heels better after watching both and I think Brandeis was a bit overrated all season. They are not top 10 quality after watching a few of there games and were fortunate to make it to the third round.
And I will go back to my OWU and MSU complaint too. No way the should be ahead of Lycoming, Tufts, or St. Lawrence.
NCAA finish might not be the main priority when ranking the final poll, but it should carry heavy significance in the committee's minds.
There are some glaring errors and omissions. Just my thoughts. I will put out my top 25 later today. Can't remember if I put one out before the final or not but I will do one now after my mind has cleared from the NCAA buzz when I did my previous poll(if I did one).
Thought I was done for the season, but I also am very surprised at both the interest level in these final rankings and also the reactions.
Is a fan 3-4 years from now really going to care if his team finished #14 or #15 instead of RV?
And what is the argument about? Some complaining the NCAA tourney isn't given enough weight and some claiming too much weight? Seems very simple that the NCAA results should figure into the equation, especially at the top end, while also allowing for season-long performance. We see the top 4 matching the final 4 and the next 4 pretty much matching the Elite 8.
Brandeis over Wheaton is an issue? Are you kidding? Brandeis played one of the toughest schedules in the country and was 18-3-1. Two of those losses were to Trinity. Wheaton was a team we all thought was better than their record but for most of the season were not deserving of a ranking. There is no way Wheaton is a clear-cut choice to be ranked ahead of Brandeis and given that Wheaton was not ranked at all prior to the tourney where they landed is VERY generous. There is a difference between where a team deserves to be ranked and how good we think they are. I think that accounts for a lot of the confusion here. Tufts should be ahead of Montclair? On what planet, if you consider the full body of work? St Olaf turned into a great story but RV is about right for them. They had to play a 4v5 conference game just to get to their conference semis. I would argue that if anything the NCAA tourney is weighed too heavily. I tried to tell anyone who would listen that Kenyon was overranked all year, but to be #1 several weeks and top 4-5 pretty much the whole season, and then drop to #7 or #8 after a 1-0 loss in the Elite 8 on a 84th minute goal seems a bit harsh. How could Midd, E'town, and TMC not deserve to be ranked based on factoring in the entire season???
For me, the only bone of contention is what to do with the teams that were snubbed. They obviously can't move up but I don't see any clear reason to seriously downgrade them either if indeed they were snubbed.
Quote from: NCAC New England on December 16, 2015, 10:21:53 AM
Thought I was done for the season, but I also am very surprised at both the interest level in these final rankings and also the reactions.
Is a fan 3-4 years from now really going to care if his team finished #14 or #15 instead of RV?
And what is the argument about? Some complaining the NCAA tourney isn't given enough weight and some claiming too much weight? Seems very simple that the NCAA results should figure into the equation, especially at the top end, while also allowing for season-long performance. We see the top 4 matching the final 4 and the next 4 pretty much matching the Elite 8.
Brandeis over Wheaton is an issue? Are you kidding? Brandeis played one of the toughest schedules in the country and was 18-3-1. Two of those losses were to Trinity. Wheaton was a team we all thought was better than their record but for most of the season were not deserving of a ranking. There is no way Wheaton is a clear-cut choice to be ranked ahead of Brandeis and given that Wheaton was not ranked at all prior to the tourney where they landed is VERY generous. There is a difference between where a team deserves to be ranked and how good we think they are. I think that accounts for a lot of the confusion here. Tufts should be ahead of Montclair? On what planet, if you consider the full body of work? St Olaf turned into a great story but RV is about right for them. They had to play a 4v5 conference game just to get to their conference semis. I would argue that if anything the NCAA tourney is weighed too heavily. I tried to tell anyone who would listen that Kenyon was overranked all year, but to be #1 several weeks and top 4-5 pretty much the whole season, and then drop to #7 or #8 after a 1-0 loss in the Elite 8 on a 84th minute goal seems a bit harsh. How could Midd, E'town, and TMC not deserve to be ranked based on factoring in the entire season???
For me, the only bone of contention is what to do with the teams that were snubbed. They obviously can't move up but I don't see any clear reason to seriously downgrade them either if indeed they were snubbed.
Whew! I thought I was all alone! I agree with basically all of this. This line of thinking and perspective makes sense to me.
Quote from: NCAC New England on December 16, 2015, 10:21:53 AM
Thought I was done for the season, but I also am very surprised at both the interest level in these final rankings and also the reactions.
Is a fan 3-4 years from now really going to care if his team finished #14 or #15 instead of RV?
And what is the argument about? Some complaining the NCAA tourney isn't given enough weight and some claiming too much weight? Seems very simple that the NCAA results should figure into the equation, especially at the top end, while also allowing for season-long performance. We see the top 4 matching the final 4 and the next 4 pretty much matching the Elite 8.
Brandeis over Wheaton is an issue? Are you kidding? Brandeis played one of the toughest schedules in the country and was 18-3-1. Two of those losses were to Trinity. Wheaton was a team we all thought was better than their record but for most of the season were not deserving of a ranking. There is no way Wheaton is a clear-cut choice to be ranked ahead of Brandeis and given that Wheaton was not ranked at all prior to the tourney where they landed is VERY generous. There is a difference between where a team deserves to be ranked and how good we think they are. I think that accounts for a lot of the confusion here. Tufts should be ahead of Montclair? On what planet, if you consider the full body of work? St Olaf turned into a great story but RV is about right for them. They had to play a 4v5 conference game just to get to their conference semis. I would argue that if anything the NCAA tourney is weighed too heavily. I tried to tell anyone who would listen that Kenyon was overranked all year, but to be #1 several weeks and top 4-5 pretty much the whole season, and then drop to #7 or #8 after a 1-0 loss in the Elite 8 on a 84th minute goal seems a bit harsh. How could Midd, E'town, and TMC not deserve to be ranked based on factoring in the entire season???
For me, the only bone of contention is what to do with the teams that were snubbed. They obviously can't move up but I don't see any clear reason to seriously downgrade them either if indeed they were snubbed.
Thanks for whoever gave me the negative karma...the one time I actually speak my mind on an issue. Petty. Anyways I do not think those teams should be ranked that didn't make NCAA's. They should RV.
And St. Olaf was in the final 16 this year...I just don't get how they were not ranked at least 25th. They honestly could have went to the Elite 8. Played a great game in the third round.
Quote from: NCAC New England on December 16, 2015, 10:21:53 AM
Is a fan 3-4 years from now really going to care if his team finished #14 or #15 instead of RV?
I was thinking of terms in using a National Ranking as leverage for recruiting purposes.
Just to be clear, in all the points I am making, I am not defending the position/inclusion/ommission of specific teams in the rankings. I am only speaking in generalities about the process, the criteria, and the purpose of the rankings. I don't agree with all teams included/ommitted or where all the teams are positioned. I often disagree with the opinions of others and with the collective opinion of the voters. I have no problem with you guys voicing your disagreements with the Top 25 rankings. I just disagree with saying that voters in a poll should be forced to put the Sweet 16 teams in the Top 16 and so forth, and should not be allowed to vote their opinion. If they can't vote their opinion--which is what they do all season long--in the final Top 25, then you guys should really be arguing for not doing a final Top 25 rather than saying the voters should just fill their ballot out in order of tournament finish.
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on December 16, 2015, 08:36:23 AMI'm sorry FW but I disagree with most of your assessment. I see your viewpoint with it being a total body of work for 2015 not just based off of the NCAA tournament finish. But then why even play the NCAA tournament if it's not going to matter how you finish?
Why play the NCAA tournament? Are you serious? You make it sound like they play the tournament in order to get a higher ranking as if the final Top 25 ranking is a higher and more important prize than NCAA tournament finish. It obviously isn't. Being NCAA champion is the highest prize, not the D3soccer.com or NSCAA No. 1 ranking in the final polls. Making it to the Final Four or Elite 8 is in and of itself a higher prize than being ranked Top 10 in a poll. Sweet 16 teams, Elite 8 teams, semifinalists, the runner-up, the champion do not need the Top 25 ranking to confirm or validate their tournament finish. Their tournament finish is what it is and is its own reward.
Quote from: blooter442 on December 15, 2015, 04:52:13 PM
Regardless, I think a team should make the Sweet 16 to be ranked 16th or higher, the Elite 8 to be 8th or higher, etc. Ultimately, there may be more talented teams out there, and things could flip-flop based on overachieving/underachieving squads, but hypothetical situations should never be given much credence when the facts (rounds that a team makes it to) are right there for all to see.
A team's complete season, their complete body of work is not a hypothetical. It is a fact. It is there for all to see. And covering 18 to 25 games versus just a handful, the full body of work is more likely to be a fair representation and less able to be distorted by a single off-day/weekend, a lucky/unlucky bounce, an upset win or loss, catching fire or running into a team on fire, etc. So it can be given full credence. What's the argument to ignore (or next to it) the full body of work and let a few single-elimination games, on back-to-back days nonetheless, define a season? If you believe that Messiah 2011 and Ohio Wesleyan 2013 were not among the best 10 or 15 teams in the nation those years just because they picked up their lone loss of the season in the 2nd Round of the NCAA tournament in upsets, then I personally think the credibilty issue is with your approach, not with an approach that allows voters to vote their opinion.
Quote from: blooter442 on December 15, 2015, 05:28:41 PM
I still maintain my position that NCAAs should be tied into the rankings, simply because not doing so is too idealistic in my humble opinion.
So should the NSCAA and D3soccer.com stop doing Top 25 rankings during the season? They have no tournament results to base them upon. Is it too idealistic to depend on the opinions of their voters, and they'd be better off not doing them at all?
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on December 16, 2015, 08:36:23 AMThere is no way that St. Olaf should not be in the top 25 after their NCAA performance. No way. If you disagree you are wrong I am telling you that right now. I watched them twice and they were a very solid team to my surprise. 8 losses yeah sure but they clicked at the right time and had a great run. How they aren't in the top 25 is ABSURD!!!! They do deserve to be ahead of Etown, Colorado, Middlebury, etc.
I never weighed in with an opinion on St. Olaf. Never disagreed (or agreed) with you. You're entitled to your opinion as we all are, and we're all entitled to think the other person is wrong. My point is that St. Olaf should not be blindly put on anyone's ballot simply because they reached the Sweet 16. It should be because the voter personally thinks they are one of the best 25 teams in the nation. You seem to have reasons apart from mere tournament finish for thinking St. Olaf is a Top 25 team (you saw them play and liked what you saw), so I have no problem with you feeling the way you do and disagreeing with the Top 25 voters. But I do have a problem with saying voters, who are entitled to their own opinions--opinions which may and often will differ from yours and mine--must blindly put St. Olaf on their ballot just because they reached the Sweet 16.
If we applied the approach some of you guys seem to favor, Amherst probably shouldn't even have been in the NCAA tournament because their NESCAC tournament finish was so poor that they should have free-fallen in the rankings. Based on the tournament results, at least four NESCAC teams were better than Amherst, so it would have required at least four at-large berths for the NESCAC in order for Amherst to have gotten in (and, yes, I know we have a lot of NESCAC fans who believe 5+ of their teams should get into the NCAA tournament each year). Thing is, I don't remember us judging Amherst's season primarily on a weekend or two of tournament results. No one was calling for Amherst to be dropped from the Top 25 when that happened or for Wesleyan and Bowdoin to all of a sudden be ranked Top 10. I wonder what some of your reactions would have been had the Week 10 Top 25 had Bowdoin at No. 2, Weslayan at No. 11, and Amherst just receiving votes. Would you guys have agreed with that because tournament finish is how we define who is better? Would you have said "Wesleyan--7 losses yeah sure but they clicked at the right time and had a great run. How they aren't in the top 25 is ABSURD!!!!" Or would you have argued that looking at the season as a whole, Amherst was still the better team and is the team that most should get the at-large berth for the NCAA tournament, not Wesleyan?
As to teams not participating in the NCAA tournament, if you think on the merits, 25 other teams are better than tournament ommissions Middlebury, E-town, and Colorado, that's fine. But I can't begin to understand how the NCAA selection committee's decision to omit those teams (decisions many on here disagreed with) should dictate to Top 25 voters who they can (and cannot) consider and evaluate for inclusion on their ballot. We had a good number of people saying there's no way RPI should be in the NCAA tournament because they didn't even make the Liberty League tournament. But, now apparently, based solely on the NCAA selection committee's say-so, they are better than Middlebury, E-town, and Colorado College and the Top 25 voters aren't entitled to have an opposing opinion (or if they are allowed that, they can't let that opinion interfer with their ballot selections). Heck, by virtue of their 1st round win and a close OT loss in round two, apparently voters should have almost been obligated to include RPI in their final Top 25, even though before the NCAA tournament the same voters would have been prohibited from even considering RPI for their Week 10 Top 25. I just can't get on board with this type of approach.
Again, I have no probrem disagreeing with the rankings (i.e. disagreeing with the voter's opinions), but calling for voter's to not be able to vote their opinion and making the Top 25 little more than an unecessary/redundant NCAA tournament standings or leader board is something I can't agree with.
It's kind of funny. During the season there seemed to be a sentiment that the NSCAA and D3soccer.com rankings don't mean anything--all that matters is the end-of-season NCAA regional rankings and getting into the tournament and making your mark there--so no reason to get too worked up about the D3soccer.com or NSCAA rankings. Now all of a sudden the rankings are being discussed as if they are practically the most important thing. Quite the shift of sentiment and I don't understand it.
Also, as an old-timer on the D3 soccer message boards it's also funny to me how several years ago (maybe it's almost 10 now!) I was criticized (on the old message board) for my critiques of the D3soccer.com Top 25 being told that the coaches voting know the game and the teams better than some fan on a meesage board, so their opinions should be taken as credible while mine shouldn't be taken too seriously. In other words, I had no place pointing out where I thought they had gotten it wrong (even if I gave my reasoning, as I always did). Now, it seems that the tide has turned and the current crop of posters has little hesitance to criticize the voters. And I'm fine with that as long as the reason for disagreeing with the voters is something more than mere tournament finish.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on December 16, 2015, 11:39:28 AM
Quote from: NCAC New England on December 16, 2015, 10:21:53 AM
Is a fan 3-4 years from now really going to care if his team finished #14 or #15 instead of RV?
I was thinking of terms in using a National Ranking as leverage for recruiting purposes.
Exactly Last Guy. What sounds better....yes we finished ranked top 15 in all the national polls this past season or yeah we RV in a poll...?
The logic of FW's arguments is too sound and compelling to ignore! Any other approach renders the final poll (i.e., opinions of the pollsters) superfluous.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on December 16, 2015, 11:54:28 AM
Just to be clear, in all the points I am making, I am not defending the position/inclusion/ommission of specific teams in the rankings. I am only speaking in generalities about the process, the criteria, and the purpose of the rankings. I don't agree with all teams included/ommitted or where all the teams are positioned. I often disagree with the opinions of others and with the collective opinion of the voters. I have no problem with you guys voicing your disagreements with the Top 25 rankings. I just disagree with saying that voters in a poll should be forced to put the Sweet 16 teams in the Top 16 and so forth, and should not be allowed to vote their opinion. If they can't vote their opinion--which is what they do all season long--in the final Top 25, then you guys should really be arguing for not doing a final Top 25 rather than saying the voters should just fill their ballot out in order of tournament finish.
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on December 16, 2015, 08:36:23 AMI'm sorry FW but I disagree with most of your assessment. I see your viewpoint with it being a total body of work for 2015 not just based off of the NCAA tournament finish. But then why even play the NCAA tournament if it's not going to matter how you finish?
Why play the NCAA tournament? Are you serious? You make it sound like they play the tournament in order to get a higher ranking as if the final Top 25 ranking is a higher and more important prize than NCAA tournament finish. It obviously isn't. Being NCAA champion is the highest prize, not the D3soccer.com or NSCAA No. 1 ranking in the final polls. Making it to the Final Four or Elite 8 is in and of itself a higher prize than being ranked Top 10 in a poll. Sweet 16 teams, Elite 8 teams, semifinalists, the runner-up, the champion do not need the Top 25 ranking to confirm or validate their tournament finish. Their tournament finish is what it is and is its own reward.
Quote from: blooter442 on December 15, 2015, 04:52:13 PM
Regardless, I think a team should make the Sweet 16 to be ranked 16th or higher, the Elite 8 to be 8th or higher, etc. Ultimately, there may be more talented teams out there, and things could flip-flop based on overachieving/underachieving squads, but hypothetical situations should never be given much credence when the facts (rounds that a team makes it to) are right there for all to see.
A team's complete season, their complete body of work is not a hypothetical. It is a fact. It is there for all to see. And covering 18 to 25 games versus just a handful, the full body of work is more likely to be a fair representation and less able to be distorted by a single off-day/weekend, a lucky/unlucky bounce, an upset win or loss, catching fire or running into a team on fire, etc. So it can be given full credence. What's the argument to ignore (or next to it) the full body of work and let a few single-elimination games, on back-to-back days nonetheless, define a season? If you believe that Messiah 2011 and Ohio Wesleyan 2013 were not among the best 10 or 15 teams in the nation those years just because they picked up their lone loss of the season in the 2nd Round of the NCAA tournament in upsets, then I personally think the credibilty issue is with your approach, not with an approach that allows voters to vote their opinion.
Quote from: blooter442 on December 15, 2015, 05:28:41 PM
I still maintain my position that NCAAs should be tied into the rankings, simply because not doing so is too idealistic in my humble opinion.
So should the NSCAA and D3soccer.com stop doing Top 25 rankings during the season? They have no tournament results to base them upon. Is it too idealistic to depend on the opinions of their voters, and they'd be better off not doing them at all?
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on December 16, 2015, 08:36:23 AMThere is no way that St. Olaf should not be in the top 25 after their NCAA performance. No way. If you disagree you are wrong I am telling you that right now. I watched them twice and they were a very solid team to my surprise. 8 losses yeah sure but they clicked at the right time and had a great run. How they aren't in the top 25 is ABSURD!!!! They do deserve to be ahead of Etown, Colorado, Middlebury, etc.
I never weighed in with an opinion on St. Olaf. Never disagreed (or agreed) with you. You're entitled to your opinion as we all are, and we're all entitled to think the other person is wrong. My point is that St. Olaf should not be blindly put on anyone's ballot simply because they reached the Sweet 16. It should be because the voter personally thinks they are one of the best 25 teams in the nation. You seem to have reasons apart from mere tournament finish for thinking St. Olaf is a Top 25 team (you saw them play and liked what you saw), so I have no problem with you feeling the way you do and disagreeing with the Top 25 voters. But I do have a problem with saying voters, who are entitled to their own opinions--opinions which may and often will differ from yours and mine--must blindly put St. Olaf on their ballot just because they reached the Sweet 16.
If we applied the approach some of you guys seem to favor, Amherst probably shouldn't even have been in the NCAA tournament because their NESCAC tournament finish was so poor that they should have free-fallen in the rankings. Based on the tournament results, at least four NESCAC teams were better than Amherst, so it would have required at least four at-large berths for the NESCAC in order for Amherst to have gotten in (and, yes, I know we have a lot of NESCAC fans who believe 5+ of their teams should get into the NCAA tournament each year). Thing is, I don't remember us judging Amherst's season primarily on a weekend or two of tournament results. No one was calling for Amherst to be dropped from the Top 25 when that happened or for Wesleyan and Bowdoin to all of a sudden be ranked Top 10. I wonder what some of your reactions would have been had the Week 10 Top 25 had Bowdoin at No. 2, Weslayan at No. 11, and Amherst just receiving votes. Would you guys have agreed with that because tournament finish is how we define who is better? Would you have said "Wesleyan--7 losses yeah sure but they clicked at the right time and had a great run. How they aren't in the top 25 is ABSURD!!!!" Or would you have argued that looking at the season as a whole, Amherst was still the better team and is the team that most should get the at-large berth for the NCAA tournament, not Wesleyan?
As to teams not participating in the NCAA tournament, if you think on the merits, 25 other teams are better than tournament ommissions Middlebury, E-town, and Colorado, that's fine. But I can't begin to understand how the NCAA selection committee's decision to omit those teams (decisions many on here disagreed with) should dictate to Top 25 voters who they can (and cannot) consider and evaluate for inclusion on their ballot. We had a good number of people saying there's no way RPI should be in the NCAA tournament because they didn't even make the Liberty League tournament. But, now apparently, based solely on the NCAA selection committee's say-so, they are better than Middlebury, E-town, and Colorado College and the Top 25 voters aren't entitled to have an opposing opinion (or if they are allowed that, they can't let that opinion interfer with their ballot selections). Heck, by virtue of their 1st round win and a close OT loss in round two, apparently voters should have almost been obligated to include RPI in their final Top 25, even though before the NCAA tournament the same voters would have been prohibited from even considering RPI for their Week 10 Top 25. I just can't get on board with this type of approach.
Again, I have no probrem disagreeing with the rankings (i.e. disagreeing with the voter's opinions), but calling for voter's to not be able to vote their opinion and making the Top 25 little more than an unecessary/redundant NCAA tournament standings or leader board is something I can't agree with.
It's kind of funny. During the season there seemed to be a sentiment that the NSCAA and D3soccer.com rankings don't mean anything--all that matters is the end-of-season NCAA regional rankings and getting into the tournament and making your mark there--so no reason to get too worked up about the D3soccer.com or NSCAA rankings. Now all of a sudden the rankings are being discussed as if they are practically the most important thing. Quite the shift of sentiment and I don't understand it.
Also, as an old-timer on the D3 soccer message boards it's also funny to me how several years ago (maybe it's almost 10 now!) I was criticized (on the old message board) for my critiques of the D3soccer.com Top 25 being told that the coaches voting know the game and the teams better than some fan on a meesage board, so their opinions should be taken as credible while mine shouldn't be taken too seriously. In other words, I had no place pointing out where I thought they had gotten it wrong (even if I gave my reasoning, as I always did). Now, it seems that the tide has turned and the current crop of posters has little hesitance to criticize the voters. And I'm fine with that as long as the reason for disagreeing with the voters is something more than mere tournament finish.
I will sum this up in a short and sweet fashion.
St. Olaf is deserving of a top 25 ranking after I saw them play AND because of how well the performed in the NCAA tournament. By saying that the NCAA tournament finish/performance doesn't matter in comparison to final rankings positioning is ludicrous. That's like saying well SOS doesn't matter in the selection process. Should it matter? YES. Should it be the only criteria(NCAA or SOS example? NO! But it should be a major factor as SOS is and NCAA performance IMO is.
FW never once said you were wrong just didn't agree with your analysis. Doesn't make me right or wrong either.
The Amherst example with Wesleyan is just silly. Stop it.
All the rankings matter and I don't think I was ever a person to say they didn't. I enjoy and look forward to the rankings each week and in particular to see teams from the Mid-Atlantic region in the polls. But the NCAA rankings mean more IMO but that doesn't dismiss the fact that the other rankings don't mean anything?
Lastly, I tend to agree with you FW on most topics probably 80/20 in favor of your opinions. I rarely speak out with such conviction as I have the past few days but some of the rankings are just foolish and there is no way around it. I am extremely disappointed in the final D3soccer rankings and the website should be too.
I can't believe any of this could make any difference in recruiting. You lead with your best data points, not your weakest.
If I was a coach I would use whatever works best....like "we were #1 for much of the season and reached the Sweet 16 3 years in a row so please help us get over the hump" OR "we were ranked as high as #12 this year, the highest ranking we've ever attained" OR (if never ranked) "we made a run all the way to the Elite 8 and next year we project to again be one of the top teams in the country."
Quote from: NCAC New England on December 16, 2015, 12:32:56 PM
I can't believe any of this could make any difference in recruiting. You lead with your best data points, not your weakest.
If I was a coach I would use whatever works best....like "we were #1 for much of the season and reached the Sweet 16 3 years in a row so please help us get over the hump" OR "we were ranked as high as #12 this year, the highest ranking we've ever attained" OR (if never ranked) "we made a run all the way to the Elite 8 and next year we project to again be one of the top teams in the country."
The better your ranking the more appealing your team will be for top recruits. That's common sense is it not? Come on NCAC.
Would you rather go play for a 3-14-1 team or an NCAA tournament team that was ranking top 20 all year and finished 17th overall. Whose program sounds better and more exciting to go play for? Success or struggles? I vote the ranked team........
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on December 16, 2015, 12:35:18 PM
Would you rather go play for a 3-14-1 team or an NCAA tournament team that was ranking top 20 all year and finished 17th overall. Whose program sounds better and more exciting to go play for? Success or struggles? I vote the ranked team........
What?!?! Talk about bad examples. How does a 3-14-1 team come into this discussion? If I wasn't happy with my final ranking I would highlight something else...like "we were a top 20 team all season long" or "we reached a ranking as high as #5 this year and made the Sweet 16 for the 2nd year in a row." The St. Olaf coach can say we have a proud tradition, went on a miracle run to win our conference tourney, won two games in the NCAAs, and took Wheaton to the limit in a legendary snow bowl game. Whether St. Olaf is ranked at #17 or RV is immaterial in terms of recruiting. I was a huge fan of St. Olaf during the tournament, but they don't clearly warrant a top 25 ranking. They are a 9 blemish team. Many teams can make a run in the tournament....that's the nature of tournaments. Do you think Midd might have made the Sweet 16, with St Olaf's draw? Or E'town? Or Messiah? St. Olaf did benefit from their run in the tournament. That's what got them into RV. Should they be ahead of RUC? Do you think they would beat RUC?
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on December 16, 2015, 12:34:08 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on December 16, 2015, 12:32:56 PM
I can't believe any of this could make any difference in recruiting. You lead with your best data points, not your weakest.
If I was a coach I would use whatever works best....like "we were #1 for much of the season and reached the Sweet 16 3 years in a row so please help us get over the hump" OR "we were ranked as high as #12 this year, the highest ranking we've ever attained" OR (if never ranked) "we made a run all the way to the Elite 8 and next year we project to again be one of the top teams in the country."
The better your ranking the more appealing your team will be for top recruits. That's common sense is it not? Come on NCAC.
It's very hard to figure out what you are so upset about.
I'll take my team. I don't think recruits are going to care one bit that Kenyon's last ranking this year is #8 and #7 when the coach can say we've been ranked #1 and #2 for good portions of the last 2 years, we have everyone returning (well, that might hurt), we won the NCAC regular season and tournament, we're one of the hottest programs in the country, and btw, the school and atmosphere are fantastic.
And I can guarantee you that St. Olaf will not lose a single recruit based on their final ranking when the coach can highlight all the other aspects about their season.
NCAC beat me to it, but what I was going to say was . . .
I'm sure that a Sweet 16 team disappointed with where they were ranked will opt to emphasize tournament finish in their recruiting.
And I have no idea what comparing as 3-14-1 team to a Top 20 team has to do with this discussion/debate. The more relevant question for where this discussion is presently at would probably be: Would you rather go play for a Top 20 team who exited in the round of 32 or a Sweet 16 team receiving votes? Can't imagine chosing the Top 20 team over the Sweet 16 team on that basis alone. I've got to think that there's going to be a lot of other factors coming into that decision (there certainly should be, at least), both soccer-related and all the other stuff (location, size, academics, cost/financial aid, etc.).
I'm all for getting the Top 25 as accurate as possible, and I would never suggest settling for less than the best that is practical. But polls are matters of opinion, not fact. There is no single correct Top 25. Opinions will vary.
3-14-1 was just an example record. You asked how you don't understand how rankings would play a part in recruiting? It's a huge part I would imagine in just day to day emails you send to recruits. You can make your program sound really good by saying something like "Hey John Smith I just wanted to reach out and give you an update on our season and check in with you. here's how we are doing so far....FILL IN info about season here....FILL IN info about rankings here...FILL IN info about upcoming games here....Finish with hope you can catch a game as we are interested in you for our program or some BS like that." And there is you recruiting letter/email/text. However the kids do it these days. So my point is that if you are struggling like a 3-14-1 team or a team that's having a good season but isn't getting recognized in the rankings or only RV it hurts compared to a team who can say hey we are doing really well here is our proof and we hope you follow our current success as to the others where it's like hey we are trying want to take us to the next step.
It definitely has an impact on recruiting and no coach or player/recruit would say otherwise.
The way you phrase and approach it you are correct NCAC but I was just trying to make a different point is all. :)
I would like to hear Mr. Right's perspective on this topic (I am being serious here).
I think in the simplest ways it goes like this:
1. Rankings matter when it comes to recruiting and having extra pull. Say otherwise is simply false
2. The way you approach a recruit is also true with what NCAC was conveying in his post, but as I said above, rankings make a difference
3. FW is correct with his opinion of Polls being an opinion and there shouldn't be restrictions like only NCAA teams get ranked etc...BUT NCAA teams should have a little extra weight in favor of them being ranked in my own personal opinion
4. These discussions are good. I don't know why Karma is being thrown around like wildfire. MAF and FW have good karma and are in a good debate and yet I see there Karma only getting negative. Give them some positive Karma for starting a good conversation. Just because they don't agree doesn't mean they don't like each other. Like they said they normally do agree with one another. Stop with the childish abuse of the Karma.
5. The dreaded the off-season officially begins :-\
Quote from: Flying Weasel on December 16, 2015, 12:57:21 PMI'm all for getting the Top 25 as accurate as possible, and I would never suggest settling for less than the best that is practical. But polls are matters of opinion, not fact. There is no single correct Top 25. Opinions will vary.
Opinions will vary, but I think it is better to accept the opinions of others than rather than taking an issue with the credibility of one approach or labeling it "right" or "wrong."
Quote from: Flying Weasel on December 16, 2015, 11:54:28 AM
A team's complete season, their complete body of work is not a hypothetical. It is a fact. It is there for all to see. And covering 18 to 25 games versus just a handful, the full body of work is more likely to be a fair representation and less able to be distorted by a single off-day/weekend, a lucky/unlucky bounce, an upset win or loss, catching fire or running into a team on fire, etc. So it can be given full credence. What's the argument to ignore (or next to it) the full body of work and let a few single-elimination games, on back-to-back days nonetheless, define a season? If you believe that Messiah 2011 and Ohio Wesleyan 2013 were not among the best 10 or 15 teams in the nation those years just because they picked up their lone loss of the season in the 2nd Round of the NCAA tournament in upsets, then I personally think the credibilty issue is with your approach, not with an approach that allows voters to vote their opinion.
That is true, but then wouldn't it make sense to award a team the title of NCAA Champion based on their entire body of work rather than a single-elimination tournament? I'm aware that the NCAA Tournament is a completely different prize, but I do think there should be some link between ranks and NCAA finish. Again, my opinion, but I can see the other side of it as well.
I think we all need to take a deep breath. :) I wouldn't go as far to say that the rankings are foolish or the website should be disappointed, but I have to say I really didn't expect such a defensive response for expressing a different opinion — I didn't question the credibility of the D3soccer.com rankings, or the approach to arrive at those rankings. For the record, I'll say that I agree with the vast majority of the men's top 25 (22 out of 25, in fact, so 88 percent!). Furthermore, FW, I greatly appreciate all the work that you do, as well as the other folks on the site. All I said was that I personally think that rankings should be somewhat tied into where a team finishes the season — first eight in spots 1-8, 8-16 in spots 8-16, etc., but I put that down to a philosophical difference in opinion rather than an issue with credibility.
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on December 16, 2015, 01:51:48 PM
4. These discussions are good. I don't know why Karma is being thrown around like wildfire. MAF and FW have good karma and are in a good debate and yet I see there Karma only getting negative. Give them some positive Karma for starting a good conversation. Just because they don't agree doesn't mean they don't like each other. Like they said they normally do agree with one another. Stop with the childish abuse of the Karma.
Agreed. Karma is superfluous, and the only time I ever throw around negative karma (very rarely) is when someone makes an ad hominem attack or makes a homer claim without the slightest hint of objectivity or regard for anyone else's opinion. Disagreement or difference in opinion should not be grounds for negative karma.
Very immature how anyone who took a side in this discussion regarding polling received negative karma. Very disappointing. Join in the discussion and make your view known; don't take it out on those with whom you disagree (hopefully respectfully)!
Sorry, but would be nice to know who the karma trolls are.
Enough of you have made a point about rankings (and, indeed, final rankings) and recruiting that there must be something there, but I'm hard pressed to think of a concrete example where it would play out like that. Once you narrow down for overall school preferences, schools a kid qualifies for, the school's overall talent in terms of being interested, the kid's talent, wanting to play right away vs later, etc, etc I can't see how some relatively small difference in rankings (that can't be countered easily with "well, yeah, but we just made the Sweet 16") would be a deciding factor. Can someone provide an example to aid the discussion?
I would think a bigger problem in terms of recruiting would be Midd, E'town, Colorado Coll, etc explaining how they didn't make the tournament. More than rankings, I think many kids are probably interested in going somewhere where they may have a chance to play in the NCAA tournament. In that regard, schools that have been to several or more NCAA tourneys in a row or made several consecutive Sweet 16s would be more attractive than a school touting a single high final ranking.
I suppose an up and coming program might use their "new" ranking as a recruiting edge but there are WAY too many other important factors to a student athlete at the D3 level then the ranking of a team. Most of these kids have been coddled all there life and been told how special they are by their interfering meddling parents so a coach might just pick up where the parent left off when they drop the kid off for a visit..."Your a special player" "You will help change the program" "With you we can contend for a national title"..This is still a complete SELL....What sells these wide eyed bushy tailed kids more than FACILITIES, academic / athletic reputation, HOT GIRLS walking around, parties...etc etc...A smart recruiter will have sized a kid up right away on the visit and give him what he wants to see and hear. Mind you this is only for kids that the coach is HIGHLY interested in..If your kid did not receive any or some of this attention than quite frankly the coach wasn't going to waste his time...If your kid got a quick 20-30 minute meeting with no tour, schmoozing, invite for an upcoming weekend game, etc than the coach could of cared less and seen the kid play and was not interested but had to deal with the kid because he kept bothering the coach.
I drifted off topic but the point was that ranking / recruiting really is not much of a factor.
Quote from: Mr.Right on December 16, 2015, 02:53:16 PM
I suppose an up and coming program might use their "new" ranking as a recruiting edge but there are WAY too many other important factors to a student athlete at the D3 level then the ranking of a team. Most of these kids have been coddled all there life and been told how special they are by their interfering meddling parents so a coach might just pick up where the parent left off when they drop the kid off for a visit..."Your a special player" "You will help change the program" "With you we can contend for a national title"..This is still a complete SELL....What sells these wide eyed bushy tailed kids more than FACILITIES, academic / athletic reputation, HOT GIRLS walking around, parties...etc etc...A smart recruiter will have sized a kid up right away on the visit and give him what he wants to see and hear. Mind you this is only for kids that the coach is HIGHLY interested in..If your kid did not receive any or some of this attention than quite frankly the coach wasn't going to waste his time...If your kid got a quick 20-30 minute meeting with no tour, schmoozing, invite for an upcoming weekend game, etc than the coach could of cared less and seen the kid play and was not interested but had to deal with the kid because he kept bothering the coach.
I drifted off topic but the point was that ranking / recruiting really is not much of a factor.
Thanks for your input Mr. Right. I really did want to hear it as I have not heard from you in a while. Hope all is well. I think it depends on the type of player/kid too. If the kid is good but wants to go to a place where he/she can play all 4 years then maybe the ranking scares them away but if the kid is good and knows it and has offers from other really good schools with high ranking then maybe the past performances and reputation and ranking factor a bit more.
Let's say a player is looking at a couple D1 schools, a D2 school, and Messiah, Lycoming, Wheaton, Amherst, and Eastern. All very good teams and NCAA tournament teams(exception of Messiah in this rare case). So if I am the player and I am good and know it what am I thinking?
Do I want to go sit the bench for a few years most likely and play a year and maybe start 1 year and say I played D1. Nah. D2 schools are arguably worse than most D3 schools so scratch them off the list.
Now I am down to the D3 schools. I am good and getting actively recruited by Messiah. The legacy and reputation is through the roof. They graduate 4 or 5 starters and I might have a chance to crack the line up as a freshman if not most likely play. Ranked for the majority of the year and always a contender who had a down year by their standards. Winning national championships is there game!! I want one. Keep them on the list. Next is Amherst. They just won the NCAA title. Appealing. But they will get every other kid just as good or better than me. #1 team in the country. What if I don't play? Keep them on the list for now. Wheaton had a great season and is also a historic program like Messiah. #9 ranking means I could play for a top 10 team in the country. Wouldn't that be cool to tell my friends! Keep them for now. Lycoming had a great season and have been successful the last 3 seasons. Can I help them keep winning or does not graduating anyone scare me away because of potential playing time? Top 15 in both polls is appealing though. Keep them on the list for now. Eastern had a good season and finally made NCAA's. They play in a fairly easy conference and I know I can play with the kids they already have. I can probably start all 4 years. Ranked for a majority of the year until the end but RV. Keep them on the list.
So what do you do? Obviously this factors nothing else like MONEY/Financial aid, location, facilities, size of school, etc. But from a players viewpoint that's where they might be at in regards to the playing aspect and ranking/success aspect of it. It honestly all depends on the kids attitude and family and money and desire to play at the next level. It's an interesting process when you dive into it.
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on December 16, 2015, 12:32:48 PM
St. Olaf is deserving of a top 25 ranking after I saw them play AND because of how well the performed in the NCAA tournament. By saying that the NCAA tournament finish/performance doesn't matter in comparison to final rankings positioning is ludicrous. That's like saying well SOS doesn't matter in the selection process. Should it matter? YES. Should it be the only criteria(NCAA or SOS example? NO! But it should be a major factor as SOS is and NCAA performance IMO is.
I never said that NCAA Tournament finish shouldn't matter--I very much think it should matter as it is part of the full body of work, and being that it pits top teams against each other, it can be more telling than the average regular season match. But I obviously do not think it should be weighted nearly as heavily as you, blooter442, and others think it should. That's all. On the other hand, whoever supports a stipulation that the Final Four teams must be ranked 1 - 4, the other Elite 8 teams must be 5 - 8, and the remaining Sweet 16 teams must be 9 - 16
is saying that nothing but tournament finish matters for the ranking. I think it should all matter, after all it's the 2015 Top 25, not the Tournament Top 25 or the November Top 25.
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on December 16, 2015, 12:32:48 PM
FW never once said you were wrong just didn't agree with your analysis. Doesn't make me right or wrong either.
I guess technically not, since I never said if I thought St. Olaf should be ranked or not, but you got very close when you said this:
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on December 16, 2015, 08:36:23 AM
There is no way that St. Olaf should not be in the top 25 after their NCAA performance. No way. If you disagree you are wrong I am telling you that right now.
What if I said I wouldn't have St. Olaf on my ballot?
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on December 16, 2015, 12:32:48 PM
The Amherst example with Wesleyan is just silly. Stop it.
What specifically is silly about it? It illustrates that a team can lose to another team in a single-elimination tournament at the end of the season and still be (considered) the better team--we do agree that Amherst is better than Wesleyan, don't we? It illustrates that a team can be eliminated in an earlier round of a single-elimination tournament at the end of the season and still be (considered) better than teams that advanced further. If that concept (tournament advancement doesn't always equate to being the better team) applies to conference tournaments, I'm not sure why it wouldn't apply to the NCAA tournament as well.
Hey, I've probably invested way too much time debating this, but I've enjoyed the discussion. It's past time for me to give it a rest. Some of us will have to agree to disagree. If I could sum up everything I have been arguing for, the heart of it is these three things:
(1) Any poll (not specifically D3soccer.com's poll) should have a process which gives its voters the full liberty to vote for who they want to vote for, to allow their ballot to fully reflect their personal opinion. You start handcuffing voters, limiting their options, telling them who they can and can't vote for in certain slots, and in the end you may have a ranking, but not a poll which by definition is a collection of opinions. So I am arguing to let polls be what they are: polls.
(2) If a final ranking primarily just parrots the NCAA tournament finish of teams, than it seems to be redundant/superflous and therefore unecessary and without purpose.
(3) A Top 25 voter should considered much more than just a team's tournament advancement/finish. That is just one part of their full body of work. An important part, but just a part. It can offset some of the regular season and conference tournament, but not all of it. An 8-loss team who reaches the Sweet 16 finish shouldn't blindly be considered a better team than a 2-loss team who was eliminated in the second round.
Good stuff FW and does anybody know when All-American Awards(or whatever they call them on the website) come out for D3Soccer?
Quote from: Mr.Right on December 16, 2015, 02:53:16 PM
I suppose an up and coming program might use their "new" ranking as a recruiting edge but there are WAY too many other important factors to a student athlete at the D3 level then the ranking of a team. Most of these kids have been coddled all there life and been told how special they are by their interfering meddling parents so a coach might just pick up where the parent left off when they drop the kid off for a visit..."Your a special player" "You will help change the program" "With you we can contend for a national title"..This is still a complete SELL....What sells these wide eyed bushy tailed kids more than FACILITIES, academic / athletic reputation, HOT GIRLS walking around, parties...etc etc...A smart recruiter will have sized a kid up right away on the visit and give him what he wants to see and hear. Mind you this is only for kids that the coach is HIGHLY interested in..If your kid did not receive any or some of this attention than quite frankly the coach wasn't going to waste his time...If your kid got a quick 20-30 minute meeting with no tour, schmoozing, invite for an upcoming weekend game, etc than the coach could of cared less and seen the kid play and was not interested but had to deal with the kid because he kept bothering the coach.
I drifted off topic but the point was that ranking / recruiting really is not much of a factor.
As a coach of U17-18 club teams, and with 10+ players filing into the D3 ranks in this 2016 recruiting class, I don't think a teams rank, plays much if any factor at all, in the decision process. Most of the guys aren't even looking at rankings.
Mr. Right hit the nail on the head. Its about facilities, academic fit, ability to play immediately, money and how genuinely interested the coach seems in the player.
Quote from: gustiefan04 on December 17, 2015, 03:52:43 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on December 16, 2015, 02:53:16 PM
I suppose an up and coming program might use their "new" ranking as a recruiting edge but there are WAY too many other important factors to a student athlete at the D3 level then the ranking of a team. Most of these kids have been coddled all there life and been told how special they are by their interfering meddling parents so a coach might just pick up where the parent left off when they drop the kid off for a visit..."Your a special player" "You will help change the program" "With you we can contend for a national title"..This is still a complete SELL....What sells these wide eyed bushy tailed kids more than FACILITIES, academic / athletic reputation, HOT GIRLS walking around, parties...etc etc...A smart recruiter will have sized a kid up right away on the visit and give him what he wants to see and hear. Mind you this is only for kids that the coach is HIGHLY interested in..If your kid did not receive any or some of this attention than quite frankly the coach wasn't going to waste his time...If your kid got a quick 20-30 minute meeting with no tour, schmoozing, invite for an upcoming weekend game, etc than the coach could of cared less and seen the kid play and was not interested but had to deal with the kid because he kept bothering the coach.
I drifted off topic but the point was that ranking / recruiting really is not much of a factor.
As a coach of U17-18 club teams, and with 10+ players filing into the D3 ranks in this 2016 recruiting class, I don't think a teams rank, plays much if any factor at all, in the decision process. Most of the guys aren't even looking at rankings.
Mr. Right hit the nail on the head. Its about facilities, academic fit, ability to play immediately, money and how genuinely interested the coach seems in the player.
I remember back when I was looking at colleges to play for, back in 2006/2007, I definitely looked at the rankings both nationally and their conference for the couple of years prior to see how they did. I would also look at the roster to see how many kids they had at that position, what class they were, and how much playing time they received.
After that I would see if the school had the majors I was thinking about going for and if they did I would email the coach. Once the coach got back to me I set up a visit and then toured the athletic facilities and school.
Quote from: gustiefan04 on December 17, 2015, 03:52:43 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on December 16, 2015, 02:53:16 PM
I suppose an up and coming program might use their "new" ranking as a recruiting edge but there are WAY too many other important factors to a student athlete at the D3 level then the ranking of a team. Most of these kids have been coddled all there life and been told how special they are by their interfering meddling parents so a coach might just pick up where the parent left off when they drop the kid off for a visit..."Your a special player" "You will help change the program" "With you we can contend for a national title"..This is still a complete SELL....What sells these wide eyed bushy tailed kids more than FACILITIES, academic / athletic reputation, HOT GIRLS walking around, parties...etc etc...A smart recruiter will have sized a kid up right away on the visit and give him what he wants to see and hear. Mind you this is only for kids that the coach is HIGHLY interested in..If your kid did not receive any or some of this attention than quite frankly the coach wasn't going to waste his time...If your kid got a quick 20-30 minute meeting with no tour, schmoozing, invite for an upcoming weekend game, etc than the coach could of cared less and seen the kid play and was not interested but had to deal with the kid because he kept bothering the coach.
I drifted off topic but the point was that ranking / recruiting really is not much of a factor.
As a coach of U17-18 club teams, and with 10+ players filing into the D3 ranks in this 2016 recruiting class, I don't think a teams rank, plays much if any factor at all, in the decision process. Most of the guys aren't even looking at rankings.
Mr. Right hit the nail on the head. Its about facilities, academic fit, ability to play immediately, money and how genuinely interested the coach seems in the player.
Ability to play immediately might hinder on how good the team is...which if they are nationally ranked every year and get top quality kids then the ability to play right away would or might be taken away...so you just provided a reason why looking at rankings do and would matter to your athletes even though you are arguing against it......
Quote from: Golden_Fan on December 17, 2015, 06:05:24 PM
I remember back when I was looking at colleges to play for, back in 2006/2007, I definitely looked at the rankings both nationally and their conference for the couple of years prior to see how they did. I would also look at the roster to see how many kids they had at that position, what class they were, and how much playing time they received.
After that I would see if the school had the majors I was thinking about going for and if they did I would email the coach. Once the coach got back to me I set up a visit and then toured the athletic facilities and school.[/quote]
That's exactly what the process is for almost all D3 athletes...well done and +K. Not trying to sway anybody's opinions one way or the other but I myself, like Golden Fan, lastguy, and MAF, do believe rankings play a role in the recruiting process. You don't hear of many "top recruits" looking at poor soccer programs. They list their choices and usually they have 2-3 really solid nationally recognized programs and maybe 1 fluff school that is still not a bad soccer team but not on the level of the other 3. You won't be seeing a kid who could play at Tufts or Amherst end up at a school like Albright or Del Val who average 3 wins a year.
Maybe they end up at the fluff school like Kings or Eastern who have good competitive programs every year and make playoffs every year and have a shot at NCAA's every year but aren't at the same level as Tufts, Amherst, Messiah, Loras, etc. Fluff isn't the right word but I will stick with it for this example. ;D
Does it matter to recruits if the coach has been a COY?
What would be more important: National COY or league COY?
;)
When you look at rankings, it could definitely sway a player's decision. You have Cabrini, Eastern, and Haverford all within a 3 miles of each other (Eastern and Cabrini are across the street from ea other). Maybe a player chooses Cabrini over Eastern (if they were ranked the year before), also considering that the conference is not as strong and likely to reach the NCAA Tournament almost every year. Not sure about Eastern, but when I was looking at schools... Cabrini offered a decent "academic scholarship"...
With a strong season that Haverford had, you're now looking at the other end of the spectrum... The Fords will now get looks from kids who are also considering D1 schools like Villanova (3.0 miles away), St. Joseph's (4.5 miles away). Would you rather play on a mid-tier D1 school that plays in a good conference under a coach like Tom Carlin or go to a smaller upstart program jumping on the national map like Haverford under Rineer.
Haverford: 64k a year
Villanova: 60.5k a year
St. Josephs: 56k a year
If cost to attend becomes a burden:
Cabrini: 45k a year
Eastern: 41.5k a year
After looking at the rosters of the top NJAC schools:
MSU: 27 / 27 players from NJ
RUC: 35 / 35 players from NJ
RUN: 29 / 29 players from NJ
ROW: 22 / 24 players from NJ
RS: 26 / 28 players from NJ
Also was able to see Rutgers-Camden tentative schedule for next year. The out-of-conference includes:
(n) St. Marys, @ Salisbury, Alvernia, Farmingdale St, Brockport St, @ Cabrini, @ Misericordia, @ Haverford, USMMA, Swarthmore
Going by last years records, 212-130-33; .630 SOS
Playing Haverford, MSU, Rowan, Stockton, Cabrini on the road will be tough outs...
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on December 18, 2015, 03:21:48 PM
After looking at the rosters of the top NJAC schools:
MSU: 27 / 27 players from NJ
RUC: 35 / 35 players from NJ
RUN: 29 / 29 players from NJ
ROW: 22 / 24 players from NJ
RS: 26 / 28 players from NJ
Also was able to see Rutgers-Camden tentative schedule for next year. The out-of-conference includes:
(n) St. Marys, @ Salisbury, Alvernia, Farmingdale St, Brockport St, @ Cabrini, @ Misericordia, @ Haverford, USMMA, Swarthmore
Going by last years records, 212-130-33; .630 SOS
Playing Haverford, MSU, Rowan, Stockton, Cabrini on the road will be tough outs...
WOW! That's a very tough non-conference schedule considering the already tough conference schedule they will have to face. They will/should have no problems with St. Marys, Alvernia, Farmingdale, Misericordia, MM or Cabrini but the Fords, Salisbury, Swat and Brockport will b very good, tough tests for them. Not saying the others won't be either, but those are the big 4 that standout from that list.
Alvernia played a lot of good teams very tough this past season so that is by no means a win. Cabrini went to the NCAA tournament and was a good game for RUC this year in a 1-0 win. Lost to Fords 3-0. Lost to Salisbury 1-0. Beat Misericordia 7-1. Beat St. Mary's 2-1. Lost to Swat 1-0. Lots of familiar teams from this past season.
Wheaton's Marshall Hollingsworth taken No. 41 in today's MLS SuperDraft by the Columbus Crew.
http://www.mlssoccer.com/superdraft/2016/tracker
Highway robbery with this year's D3Soccer AA's. Wow.
Three of the four teams in the Final Four have two AA's ... Loras has NONE. All this award proves is that the "voters" know how to read stat lines. If anyone watched games from the NCAA Tournament or the Final Four, Johnny Rummelhart and Alex Bradley made their case for All-American status with their play, on and off the ball. But I'm not going to sit here and simply pump up only Loras' players.
But then again, even stat lines don't seem to make a difference in all cases. How on God's green earth do the "voters" pick Salisbury's GK as 2nd Team and completely omit Calvin's GK?
Salisbury GK // 13-4-3 // .890 Save % // 0.63 GAA // First Round
Calvin GK // 24-1-1 // .908 Save % // 0.24 GAA // Final Four
If its not stat lines that determine who gets AA, then maybe it's all about what players get talked up the most on these boards. I get it, DIII soccer doesn't receive the same level of national publicity as DI, but come on, do some reading and research and figure it out.
Congrats to the players who were named AA and are deserving. You've made your home fans and colleges proud.
Thought that D3soccer.com did a great job with the AA selections. We all probably have a player or two that we wanted on there, and we all might well have done it slightly differently, but given the sheer number of teams, games, and talented players that were up for debate I thought they did very well. All of the national POYs had very strong cases for the accolade and were deserved winners IMHO.
Forward of the Year was a shocker, IMO...
1) Sam Yarosh (39 pts) had fantastic numbers with one of the hardest schedules in the nation. Not sure how the voters botched this one...
2) NPL was a big piece to the Amherst puzzle.
3) Mike Ryan (39 pts) had solid numbers for Camden and a difficult schedule.
4) Tony Amolo (41 pts) from Kenyon
5) Johnny Rummelhart from Loras\
6) Brian Schaefer, OWU (41 pts)
7) Adam Glaser from Middlebury
8) Sean Bingham and Austin Juniet
10) Jake Sutherland, Oneonta St.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on January 20, 2016, 10:16:18 AM
Forward of the Year was a shocker, IMO...
1) Sam Yarosh (39 pts) had fantastic numbers with one of the hardest schedules in the nation. Not sure how the voters botched this one...
2) NPL was a big piece to the Amherst puzzle.
3) Mike Ryan (39 pts) had solid numbers for Camden and a difficult schedule.
4) Tony Amolo (41 pts) from Kenyon
5) Johnny Rummelhart from Loras\
6) Brian Schaefer, OWU (41 pts)
7) Adam Glaser from Middlebury
8) Sean Bingham and Austin Juniet
10) Jake Sutherland, Oneonta St.
Would have picked NPL myself, but Bingham is the real deal. Even if MIT's SOS wasn't the best,
54 points is legit, and he
scored or assisted over 50% of his team's goals. Scored two in a big game against Stevens, scored against Bridgewater State in the 1st Round and Bowdoin in OT in the 2nd Round, along with numerous other game-tying or winning goals. MIT was by no means a dominant side, but they got it done, and that was in large part due to Bingham. They're going to feel his loss next year, big time.
Bingham converted 4 PKs this year;
6 pts in a 4-0 win vs Keene St. (5-11)
1 pt in a 7-0 win at Newbury (11-9-1)
5 pts in a 9-0 win vs Emmanuel (5-11-1)
5 pts in a 5-0 win at Emerson (5-13)
6 pts in a 6-0 win vs Suffolk (2-16-1)
4 pts in a 3-2 win at Wheaton (11-8)
--------------------------------------------------
2 pts in a 1-0 win at Babson (12-7-2)
4 pts in a 3-0 win vs WPI (11-7-2)
4 pts in a 3-2 win at Springfield (16-4-2)
5 pts in a 4-3 win vs SIT (15-4-2)
2 pts in a 1-0 win vs Bowdoin (11-4-4)
BY THE NUMBERS: SEAN BINGHAM vs MIKE RYAN
very close---
Mike Ryan: 166 career points (2nd overall across all divisions)
75G 16A (1st overall in goals across all divisions)
96 games
23 GWG (24% of games played)
3-5 PKs
403 shots / 211 SOG: 52.4% --- 4.19 shots per game
SOS 2015-14-13-12 - (19th), (34th), (2nd), (33rd) Massey Ratings
Sean Bingham: 162 career points (4th overall across all divisions)
70G 22A (2nd overall in goals across all divisions)
78 games
18 GWG (23% of games played)
6-6 PKs
263 shots / 146 SOG: 55.5% --- 3.37 shots per game
SOS 2015-14-13-12 (63rd), (62nd), (147th), (89th)
Quote from: blooter442 on January 20, 2016, 10:25:28 AM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on January 20, 2016, 10:16:18 AM
Forward of the Year was a shocker, IMO...
1) Sam Yarosh (39 pts) had fantastic numbers with one of the hardest schedules in the nation. Not sure how the voters botched this one...
2) NPL was a big piece to the Amherst puzzle.
3) Mike Ryan (39 pts) had solid numbers for Camden and a difficult schedule.
4) Tony Amolo (41 pts) from Kenyon
5) Johnny Rummelhart from Loras\
6) Brian Schaefer, OWU (41 pts)
7) Adam Glaser from Middlebury
8) Sean Bingham and Austin Juniet
10) Jake Sutherland, Oneonta St.
Would have picked NPL myself, but Bingham is the real deal. Even if MIT's SOS wasn't the best, 54 points is legit, and he scored or assisted over 50% of his team's goals. Scored two in a big game against Stevens, scored against Bridgewater State in the 1st Round and Bowdoin in OT in the 2nd Round, along with numerous other game-tying or winning goals. MIT was by no means a dominant side, but they got it done, and that was in large part due to Bingham. They're going to feel his loss next year, big time.
I would have picked NPL and Kayne (M) and Patel (D) from Tufts on the first team. Devlin on UCONN (M) should also be considered. Both Kayne and Devlin didn't have the points the other midfielders did so I understand to an extent, but if you have seen them play against the competition you would understand. Devlin is very scrappy and consistent with an engine that doesn't stop, sort of like Hollingsworth of Wheaton. Hollingsworth's touch isn't the best but boy is he fast, great defensively, and has a huge heart...Kayne is a fantastic 2 way player and one of the best passers in the game. I have said this before that the numbers are really apples and oranges given the differences in conferences, schedules, and number of games played in a season. Also some of the players mentioned take their team's penalty kicks. Others don't. It's easy to look at the points, and I must admit it may be the only way to get some sort of semi-standardized look. However, I am certain that some of those players wouldn't have the points they put up playing in the NESCAC or other tough conferences, given the lower number of games and tough schedules. Yes, I have seen both Bingham and NPL play. Both are excellent but I also give the edge to NPL. I have also seen many of the midfielders and defenders listed play.
Blooter, thoughts? You seem to have seen many games....
Quote from: Brother Flounder on January 20, 2016, 11:47:40 AM
I would have picked NPL and Kayne (M) and Patel (D) from Tufts on the first team. Devlin on UCONN (M) should also be considered. Both Kayne and Devlin didn't have the points the other midfielders did so I understand to an extent, but if you have seen them play against the competition you would understand. Devlin is very scrappy and consistent with an engine that doesn't stop, sort of like Hollingsworth of Wheaton. Hollingsworth's touch isn't the best but boy is he fast, great defensively, and has a huge heart...Kayne is a fantastic 2 way player and one of the best passers in the game. I have said this before that the numbers are really apples and oranges given the differences in conferences, schedules, and number of games played in a season. Also some of the players mentioned take their team's penalty kicks. Others don't. It's easy to look at the points, and I must admit it may be the only way to get some sort of semi-standardized look. However, I am certain that some of those players wouldn't have the points they put up playing in the NESCAC or other tough conferences, given the lower number of games and tough schedules. Yes, I have seen both Bingham and NPL play. Both are excellent but I also give the edge to NPL. I have also seen many of the midfielders and defenders listed play.
Blooter, thoughts? You seem to have seen many games....
I have seen Kayne play a lot, and he would definitely have been a justified AA selection in my book. In fact, when Tufts was still No. 1 early in the season, I said he might be a top 3 player in the country. However, he didn't have a great season statistically, and while statistics don't mean everything, the unfortunate reality is that they often come into play when choosing awards, particularly when determining one player's merit for a spot on the AA team versus another. To a degree, I agree with using statistics, as it often helps to prevent players who had a poor season getting placed on teams based on their legacy. (Clearly it does not always work: I had many qualms with Jeff Greblick of Rochester getting a spot on the UAA first team with 3g&0a and only one conference goal, and I would have taken Santos over Hoppenot any day for the '14 NESCAC 1st Team.) As far as Kayne's case in particular goes, this might sound biased since the following MF plays for my alma mater, but when Josh Ocel of Brandeis has 4g&10a and scored or assisted 50% of his team's game-winners, and Kayne has 1g&2a, and both teams reached the same round of NCAAs, then you'd be hard-pressed to take Kayne over him for a spot in midfield on an AA team. Will Corkery and his 9g&13a presents an even more compelling case for AA inclusion, and perhaps explains why he ended up on the first team, along with Logan Andryk and his 21g&17a. Numbers ain't everything, and you can always debate their significance or validity, but they do mean something.
Even with all of that said, I would have loved to have had Kayne on my team! He will always be remembered for his goal against Messiah (I refuse to use the three-word term that everyone seems to love, as it is not a registered trademark ;).) Patel would have been a justified choice at LB. Very good defensively, technically sound, good going forward, and takes excellent corner kicks. Devlin like you said is a scrappy two-way player who never stops running, and I really enjoyed watching him too.
In short: I don't think it was as much of an issue as to whether Kayne was an AA-caliber player, because he very much was IMHO, but rather how he stacked up against other AA candidates. And when you have a lot of nominees competing for far fewer spots, there has to be a way to separate them, no matter how imperfect it may be. That said, if Majumder had finished a few more through balls from Kayne this year, we could very well be talking about him as an AA selection. Either way, I think Kayne can be very proud of his career, and that NCAA title means more than an AA honor would have.
Fun note: I've often said that NPL looks like Thomas Ian Nicholas from
Rookie of the Year and
American Pie. Here (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BypZHNl-L5WSSUEzdVlfQjd2X1k/view) you go, folks.
I find it very odd that a team in the national championship does not have a single d3soccer AA. Especially from a veteran group has played in two final fours and a national championship.
Quote from: blooter442 on January 20, 2016, 01:26:19 PM
Quote from: Brother Flounder on January 20, 2016, 11:47:40 AM
I would have picked NPL and Kayne (M) and Patel (D) from Tufts on the first team. Devlin on UCONN (M) should also be considered. Both Kayne and Devlin didn't have the points the other midfielders did so I understand to an extent, but if you have seen them play against the competition you would understand. Devlin is very scrappy and consistent with an engine that doesn't stop, sort of like Hollingsworth of Wheaton. Hollingsworth's touch isn't the best but boy is he fast, great defensively, and has a huge heart...Kayne is a fantastic 2 way player and one of the best passers in the game. I have said this before that the numbers are really apples and oranges given the differences in conferences, schedules, and number of games played in a season. Also some of the players mentioned take their team's penalty kicks. Others don't. It's easy to look at the points, and I must admit it may be the only way to get some sort of semi-standardized look. However, I am certain that some of those players wouldn't have the points they put up playing in the NESCAC or other tough conferences, given the lower number of games and tough schedules. Yes, I have seen both Bingham and NPL play. Both are excellent but I also give the edge to NPL. I have also seen many of the midfielders and defenders listed play.
Blooter, thoughts? You seem to have seen many games....
I have seen Kayne play a lot, and he would definitely have been a justified AA selection in my book. In fact, when Tufts was still No. 1 early in the season, I said he might be a top 3 player in the country. However, he didn't have a great season statistically, and while statistics don't mean everything, the unfortunate reality is that they often come into play when choosing awards, particularly when determining one player's merit for a spot on the AA team versus another. To a degree, I agree with using statistics, as it often helps to prevent players who had a poor season getting placed on teams based on their legacy. (Clearly it does not always work: I had many qualms with Jeff Greblick of Rochester getting a spot on the UAA first team with 3g&0a and only one conference goal, and I would have taken Santos over Hoppenot any day for the '14 NESCAC 1st Team.) As far as Kayne's case in particular goes, this might sound biased since the following MF plays for my alma mater, but when Josh Ocel of Brandeis has 4g&10a and scored or assisted 50% of his team's game-winners, and Kayne has 1g&2a, and both teams reached the same round of NCAAs, then you'd be hard-pressed to take Kayne over him for a spot in midfield on an AA team. Will Corkery and his 9g&13a presents an even more compelling case for AA inclusion, and perhaps explains why he ended up on the first team, along with Logan Andryk and his 21g&17a. Numbers ain't everything, and you can always debate their significance or validity, but they do mean something.
Even with all of that said, I would have loved to have had Kayne on my team! He will always be remembered for his goal against Messiah (I refuse to use the three-word term that everyone seems to love, as it is not a registered trademark ;).) Patel would have been a justified choice at LB. Very good defensively, technically sound, good going forward, and takes excellent corner kicks. Devlin like you said is a scrappy two-way player who never stops running, and I really enjoyed watching him too.
In short: I don't think it was as much of an issue as to whether Kayne was an AA-caliber player, because he very much was IMHO, but rather how he stacked up against other AA candidates. And when you have a lot of nominees competing for far fewer spots, there has to be a way to separate them, no matter how imperfect it may be. That said, if Majumder had finished a few more through balls from Kayne this year, we could very well be talking about him as an AA selection. Either way, I think Kayne can be very proud of his career, and that NCAA title means more than an AA honor would have.
Fun note: I've often said that NPL looks like Thomas Ian Nicholas from Rookie of the Year and American Pie. Here (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BypZHNl-L5WSSUEzdVlfQjd2X1k/view) you go, folks.
Very good analysis, like always!!! Yes, that goal will go down as one of the most important goals, if not the most important, in Tufts history. True, about NPL! Funny.
I would have went with NPL or Yarosh as FWD of the Year. Just my thoughts. Also surprised to see only 3 players from the Mid-Atlantic region selected. Thought the region deserved a couple more but I might be slightly bias ;D ;) Glad to see Kyle Thomas from Lycoming make the ballot. I know a lot of voters dismiss underclassmen because they think they will "just get the nod next year." That's an assumption I have always hated. But with him only being a sophomore and getting a 2nd team AA nod from NSCAA and D3Soccer I think he will be in contention for Def. POY within the next 2 seasons as he will continue to be the anchor for that stingy Lycoming defense that we have come to know.
Was disappointed with the Salisbury GK selection as well. Not saying he isn't deserving but I think the Etown GK Barrera was extremely overlooked after they got they snubbed from NCAA's. 15 GA, .79 GAA, .837 Save%, 17-2-1 record, 8 shut outs. The shut out stat hurts him a little but he still had a very nice season!
Overall the selections are well done and hard to argue any of them. One last thought...wouldn't it be neat to see an "All-Coaches Team" selected? Serpone got COY so him plus say 4 other coaches make the All-Coaches AA Team. Many deserving candidates for that obviously.
I would go with, in no order, Serpone(Amherst), Rineer(Fords), Gibboney(Lyco), Byrne(Oneonta St.), and Rothert(Loras)/Shapiro(Tufts).
And for the first time, no Messiah players...
For the top coaches outside of Serpone getting the award:
2) Souders - hard to overlook that win streak regardless of opponents.
3) Rineer - consistently schedules strong out of conference games and this program has come a longgg way.
4) Byrne - always organized and very technical teams, have put together some strong seasons.
5) Rothert - consistently schedules strong out of conference games and have been making deep runs in the tourney.
6) Ken Bovell, MIT - took over a 8-7-3 from 2014 and got the Engineers to 18-3-1
7) Mike Singleton, Washington & Lee - the former MIT coach has put W&L on the map after just two seasons. From fourth in the ODAC to Champs...
Great list, lgotb. Caught basically all the names I was thinking of (and added the W&L coach who I hadn't considered but is definitely worthy of mention). For me personally, I'd probably have picked Rineer or Souders for COY simply because what they accomplished with their teams much was less expected, but you can't go wrong with a coach who finally gets his team over the hump for their first-ever national title. Given the teams and coaches at the Final Four, the national champion coach was always going to be not only the default choice, but a very worthy honoree. A short honorable mention list for coaches might not be a bad addition for the D3soccer.com awards.
Yes all great selections as well. My reasoning for Shapiro from Tufts was simply because they overcame all of the questions asked of them going into the season and made a nice run in the NCAA tournament when most people questioned them even making the tournament. They were a very worthy team and with a huge target on their back they were able to quiet most of the doubters. Although their record wasn't as stellar as the previous year I think Shapiro did a wonderful job managing the team and high expectations they and the rest of the country had for them.
Shifting back to players, there's always going to be debate and disagreement about who gets selected for awards. It's a very subjective thing, and in the D-III world, most fans and voters will have seen relatively few of the candidates play more than a time or two, if that. The other thing is that fans/voters might factor things differently or have a different ideas of what the awards are meant to represent.
Here are some very general questions I have when thinking about awards and who should get them. I'd be interested to hear everyone's thoughts and opinions.
(1) Should honors/awards be recognizing the top players or the top performers? In other words, should honors go to the player who, when on his game, is one of the best or to the player who, regardless how he stacks up talent/abiltity-wise, most consistently put in top performances throughout the season?
(2) Should honors/awards be based on a player's full body of work--the whole season, start to finish (with allowance to weight performances against tougher opponents and in NCAA games) OR can they be based on a certain subset of games? In other words, in comparing players for awards, should the full season of each player be compared or should Player A at his best be compared to Player B at his best? Or Player A in the post-season vs. Player B in the post-season? Or Player A in tough games vs. Player B in tough games?
(3) Should there be some rough limit on how many games a player can miss due to injury (or "coaches decision") during the season to still be considered for honors/awards? Would a third of the season (6-8 games depending on NCAA advancement) be a reasonable limit on missed games to be considered? More? Less? And if you think a player could miss even more games and still be considered, how do you make the statistical comparison to other players?
AA selections are always so subjective, always dependent on which players one has actually seen.
I put more credence in the NSCAA list (http://www.nscaa.com/awards/2015-ncaa-division-iii-men-s-all-america-teams) than the d3soccer list, b/c the four best players I saw were all on the list--Gilbert Waso, Mike Ryan (the very best, IMO), William Webb, and Jacob Bender. As I've said a few times earlier, Bender might be the best outside defender Messiah has ever had, at least when his game on both ends is considered. I did not see any outside defenders in the tournament who looked as good as Bender. He was 3rd team, and I won't argue with that b/c I didn't see a lot of the others. But, I find it hard to believe he was left off the d3 list entirely. I see that Rummelhart of Loras made the d3 list, too, and he is surely deserving. It's awfully hard for me to understand why Ryan wasn't first team on either list. He's better than Waso or Amolo, IMO, and they both made first team on at least one list. But, of course, opinion is the bottom line.
For the most part the D3 AA list was well done. I can think of 10 strikers I would pick ahead of Bingham in D3 if I was drafting a team from scratch. I respect Bingham and have seen him quite a bit the past few years. His stats are impressive but he is AT BEST 3rd team AA. He is a very cagey SMART player who gets to where the ball is going to end up better than most players in D3 but he is not even a legitimate striker (position wise) IMO. He finishes well and had some big goals this year but besides the goals against Stevens, Bowdoin and a couple other NEWMAC teams his stats are heavily inflated against teams with over-inflated records let alone bad records. I must say after watching Bowdoin at MIT in the NCAA 2nd round it looked like Bowdoin was in control by the time OT rolled around and OUT OF Nowhere a seemingly harmless cross that should have been cleared by Nescac POY Nabil Odulate was finished by Bingham as he appeared out of nowhere by getting behind his defender and getting to the ball FIRST, Very smart player but personally if I was drafting a team from scratch I can think of 3-4 Nescac strikers I would choose over him. Just my opinion.
Also,
I cannot support the fact that these teams are picked by people that have seen a player play only once or maybe even never. That is no EXCUSE. I never take these selections seriously almost like the week to week Top 25's but if others take this stuff seriously than maybe we should get 2-3 hardcore D3 fans voting instead. Personally, in New England and especially in Nescac I see some of these players 8-10 times a year. I will admit I only saw 3 Trinity TX games this year and I do not recall seeing any of the California schools this year or even Colorado College but if I had a vote I would take it seriously and catch even more games than I do currently. That being said I would have no interest but I can think of 3 posters on here who would and would take the role seriously to really commit their time to watch as many games as they could and really evaluate teams and players all year long. Selfishly, it would allow me to get some scouting reports on teams out of region from posters I respect and get more opinions / debate going on site from other regions.
Gilbert Waso, 9G / 8A; 1st team AA as a FRESHMAN forward, and did not score a goal AFTER October 7th. The last 8 GAMES of the season and NO GOALS... it's a real head scratcher... it's not like Etown had a truly difficult schedule. 6 of the 9 goals came against the likes of .500 DeSales, 5 win Gwynedd Mercy who plays NO ONE, 4 win Wilkes and 4 win Juniata squad that was winless in the Landmark.
Is Mid-Atlantic representation that strong for NSCAA?
Quote from: Flying Weasel on January 21, 2016, 04:24:06 PM(1) Should honors/awards be recognizing the top players or the top performers? In other words, should honors go to the player who, when on his game, is one of the best or to the player who, regardless how he stacks up talent/abiltity-wise, most consistently put in top performances throughout the season?
Quote from: Falconer on January 22, 2016, 07:31:09 PMI put more credence in the NSCAA list (http://www.nscaa.com/awards/2015-ncaa-division-iii-men-s-all-america-teams) than the d3soccer list, b/c the four best players I saw were all on the list--Gilbert Waso, Mike Ryan (the very best, IMO), William Webb, and Jacob Bender. . . . It's awfully hard for me to understand why Ryan wasn't first team on either list. He's better than Waso or Amolo, IMO, and they both made first team on at least one list. But, of course, opinion is the bottom line.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on January 22, 2016, 09:28:42 PMGilbert Waso, 9G / 8A; 1st team AA as a FRESHMAN forward, and did not score a goal AFTER October 7th. The last 8 GAMES of the season and NO GOALS... it's a real head scratcher... it's not like Etown had a truly difficult schedule. 6 of the 9 goals came against the likes of .500 DeSales, 5 win Gwynedd Mercy who plays NO ONE, 4 win Wilkes and 4 win Juniata squad that was winless in the Landmark.
Well, lastguyoffthebench already addressed why E-town's Waso as an All-American, not to mention 1st Teamer, is very questionable at best.
CMU's Webb scored one goal with no assists in six conference games. Sure, it's a tough conference, but still, that doesn't help your AA resume. If he doesn't score a hattrick against Messiah in game 3, I don't think he ever gets on the national radar, and scoring multiple goals against Messiah never would have happened in any of the last 15 years. Messiah's defensive/goalkeeping miscues had a lot to do with those goals with credit to Webb for taking full advantage. He scored 3 against Muskingum (4-14-0) in season opening 8-0 win, scored a pair against Bethany (5-12-2) in a 7-0 win, and scored two against Mount Aloysius (12-7-2) in 3-2 win. So beyond the Messiah game and those three other multiple goal games, he only scored three goals (with three assists) in the other 13 games, failing to score against Allegheny (4-11-2) and unable to keep CMU from being knocked out of the NCAA tournament in the first round when he went scoreless against Gordon in a 2-1 loss. Not sure you can fault voters for passing over Webb.
After his observations about Waso, I wonder if lastguyoffthebench realized this about Mike Ryan. Ryan didn't score a goal or get an assist in any of his five post-season games (3 NJAC, 2 NCAA). And, sure, I understand a player can contribute in other ways and help the cause in ways that don't show up in the box score, but when trying to select just 8 or so forwards from among almost 1,000 D-III forwards, scoring does matter. And during the regular season, Ryan didn't score or get an assist against top non conference opponents Salisbury (L0-1), Chris. Newport (T0-0), or Haverford (L0-3), nor did he score or get an assist in their upset losses to Swarthmore (L0-1), TCNJ (L0-1), Randolph (L0-3). Is Ryan a very good forward. Yes. He's proven that over his three years at RU-C. But that doesn't sound like a 1st Team resume to me this year, and I don't think you could fault a voter who took a pass on him.
And it brings me back to the first of the three questions I posed (the second question being similar). Are the awards for the best players or the players with the best performances? Is it for the most talented players or the ones who got the job done the most often and the most consistently throughout the season? Ideally it is both, but what is the driver? I feel it should be a performance-based award/honor, not a grade on talent/ability.
Based on the nature of the Division III game, you are always going to be in a situation where most voters - coaches (NSCAA) or others (D3soccer.com) - have not seen all the players play.
My understanding of the NSCAA voting, limited as it is, is that the coaches get to vote for a certain number of players from teams they played against, at least for the early rounds. From there, I'm not sure. But the fact remains, the coaches have probably seen even fewer players than we have - they're on the sidelines during their own games and can't stream multiple games at the same time or watch 5 NCAA games in one day. Also, for what it's worth, the NSCAA had forty-nine All-Americans, more than four full teams' worth, while D3soccer.com stuck with three teams of eleven. I won't comment on which one is better, as it's great for these kids to get recognized, but certainly having sixteen extra players qualify for All-American status is a bit overinclusive and makes it less likely that there will be any snubs.
Also, for me, actually watching a player play can be a double-edged sword. I've been around this long enough and played with/against/watched enough All-Americans to have a good sense of what they look like, the impact they have on games, and the stats they put up (or should put up). So while watching a player can make me more likely to vote for them even w/o the stats - because they have a greater impact on the game, they're in a different class, etc. - it can also make me omit them because they aren't up to the standard I'm expecting from an All-American. In that case, if the player is a stud forward based on the eye-test, that's where they start and if they don't put up points then I re-evaluate. If the player looks pretty average yet scores 20 goals, I re-evaluate. If the player doesn't look like an All-American live and the stats don't give me much to go on, then they probably aren't getting my vote. And the more times you see a player, the more confident you are in that player's level and whether or not it lines up with his stats.
Look, it's an imperfect process. If we're being truly honest, many of the best teams have players who will never sniff an All-American team but are much better players than some of the guys that make the AA teams, just because of the role they're asked to play. Someone who would be a stud on an average-to-good team, putting up more stats and getting the lion's share of the accolades, might only be the fourth, fifth, sixth best player on Messiah, Amherst, Loras, etc. I bet there are some guys who made the AA teams that would not start for some of the best teams. But that's just the way this works. Look at it this way - if Barcelona was a Division III team, would Luis Suarez get an All-American nod? Would Sergio Busquets? In my view they're both clearly in the top 3-4 in their position, but Barcelona would already have two All-Americans in Messi and Neymar, and teams aren't going to get that many players on the AA team. It just won't happen. Doesn't change the fact that Suarez is better than every other forward save Ronaldo. He won't be an All-American.
I'm completely open to a better way of doing this, I'm just not sure if there's one out there. I know D3soccer.com put a ton of time into the teams and the ballots in terms of giving voters as much information as possible to work with.
A few random thoughts from NCAC NE land, including after reading some of comments above.
I wonder if Loras suffers a bit from playing so many players in terms of AA selections. Based on the few games I saw (and without checking stats), I would have given strong consideration to Bradley and probably Simon. Rummelhart is very dangerous but I haven't seen enough of him to have a strong opinion on whether overall he is dynamic enough to go beyond a regional AA team.
I think probably half or more of the selections at least 7 or 8 out of 10 of us would agree on, while allowing for disagreements about which team they were placed on. In other words, I think at least half are difficult to question. It's the other half or bottom third that likely could be interchanged with another 30-45 players from around the country.
From the areas that I follow most closely, IMO Bull, NPL, Amolo, Juniet and Schaefer are no-brainers, as are Hollingsworth, Carwile, Copeland, I guess Lanahan, Groenwold, Yarosh, Corkery, Andryk, Dylan Williams, probably Ryan, and maybe a couple of others.
I personally would not have voted for Barnes of Kenyon (who made NSCAA 1st team and D3 2nd team) or Barnes for OWU. The first Barnes IMO is one of those players who falls into that category FW noted (you might pick on talent/ability but not necessarily body of work for the whole season). I don't think he scored at all until late in the season. Yes, he had a few huge, very dramatic PK conversions, but overall I don't think his season matched his lofty expectations. Great, gutsy player, but for me, a regional AA selection. The OWU Barnes (who has an older brother who played at Kenyon) was very good and very versatile over the course of the year, but I'm not sure he was even the 2nd best player on his team. Regional AA also fits for me on him, although his stats for a mid/defender look pretty good I think. For the NESCAC faithful, I easily could have picked Majumder, Kayne and Devlin over them (I say Devlin based on posters here as I haven't seen him live or enough on streaming to feel strongly). I think Picard for Brandeis also was very underrated.
I loved watching Cvecko during the season but he seemed to fade (probably along with tighter coverage) along with CWRU. Another regional AA for me who I could not have picked over Majumder or the striker for Chicago or probably TenBrook for F&M. There was a player for St Olaf who was all over the field in the snow bowl game with Wheaton and I'm guessing no more than 5 posters on this forum could name him (Johnson, I think).
I have no idea how the Calvin GK missed out.
Bottom line is the task is just too hard and some have explained why. As much time as I spent following, I would have no clue how to pick the top 4 players in the NJAC or SUNYAC or be able to tell if some player from Redlands, Whitworth, or the Minnesota/Wisconsin or ODAC areas should have been included, which is a long-winded way of saying that I think NSCAA and D3soccer do a pretty good job.
Quote from: NCAC New England on January 23, 2016, 11:32:46 AM
I have no idea how the Calvin GK missed out.
Me neither. We were giving him some stick for wearing a short sleeve jersey with a high turtleneck, but man, he was excellent in every aspect of the game. Great with his feet and distribution, confident on crosses, and made some fantastic saves in almost every round of the NCAA tournament. Kept Calvin in both the OWU game (tipped a bomb onto the crossbar, saved a breakaway when down 1-0) and in the Loras game, where he made a number of great saves to keep Calvin within striking distance. Considering he played for a Final Four team, had a ridiculous save percentage, a ton of shutouts, and passed every level of the eye test, I think he's the biggest omission. Frankly, if Bull hadn't made the stops in the penalty shootout against Oneonta (he'd been shaky during the game) I would have given the Calvin kid the top spot.
Quote from: Ryan Harmanis on January 23, 2016, 01:20:42 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on January 23, 2016, 11:32:46 AM
I have no idea how the Calvin GK missed out.
Me neither. We were giving him some stick for wearing a short sleeve jersey with a high turtleneck, but man, he was excellent in every aspect of the game. Great with his feet and distribution, confident on crosses, and made some fantastic saves in almost every round of the NCAA tournament. Kept Calvin in both the OWU game (tipped a bomb onto the crossbar, saved a breakaway when down 1-0) and in the Loras game, where he made a number of great saves to keep Calvin within striking distance. Considering he played for a Final Four team, had a ridiculous save percentage, a ton of shutouts, and passed every level of the eye test, I think he's the biggest omission. Frankly, if Bull hadn't made the stops in the penalty shootout against Oneonta (he'd been shaky during the game) I would have given the Calvin kid the top spot.
Haha. I bet you guys were. He looked like an elf out there in that outfit, but I sure wasn't laughing when he was heading the Final Four! He also made point-blank breakaway saves against F&M and Kenyon. For my money, he was the MVP of the NCAA Tournament (as a whole).
Can't help to wonder the impact that Ryan Souders, as an ex-keeper and coach, had on his play.
Quote from: NCAC New England on January 23, 2016, 11:32:46 AM
I think probably half or more of the selections at least 7 or 8 out of 10 of us would agree on, while allowing for disagreements about which team they were placed on. In other words, I think at least half are difficult to question. It's the other half or bottom third that likely could be interchanged with another 30-45 players from around the country.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on January 22, 2016, 10:39:42 PM
CMU's Webb scored one goal with no assists in six conference games. Sure, it's a tough conference, but still, that doesn't help your AA resume. If he doesn't score a hattrick against Messiah in game 3, I don't think he ever gets on the national radar, and scoring multiple goals against Messiah never would have happened in any of the last 15 years. Messiah's defensive/goalkeeping miscues had a lot to do with those goals with credit to Webb for taking full advantage. He scored 3 against Muskingum (4-14-0) in season opening 8-0 win, scored a pair against Bethany (5-12-2) in a 7-0 win, and scored two against Mount Aloysius (12-7-2) in 3-2 win. So beyond the Messiah game and those three other multiple goal games, he only scored three goals (with three assists) in the other 13 games, failing to score against Allegheny (4-11-2) and unable to keep CMU from being knocked out of the NCAA tournament in the first round when he went scoreless against Gordon in a 2-1 loss. Not sure you can fault voters for passing over Webb.
I think that the second sentence in particular very much speaks to my reasoning that Kayne didn't get All-American, and FWIW I agree with FW here about Webb. I think that given the context in which Messiah went out last year that many of us thought they would come out of the gates fast this year, so when Webb went and put a hat-trick past them it was surprising to say the least for most of us. However, when CMU's conference slate came along, he went missing, and he certainly wasn't the best CMU player on the pitch when I saw them (that would go to Friedlander or Z. Masciopinto.)
As far as NSCAA vs. D3soccer.com AA selections, I would pick D3soccer.com pretty much any day of the week. While I thought that the NSCAA did a good job with national rankings this year, the NSCAA AA selections – year after year – don't seem to take into account the difficulty of conferences, SOS, etc. in selecting their teams. How in the world Will Corkery – who, along with Yarosh, was incredibly important for Haverford
and had great stats for any player, let alone a CM – didn't end up as an NSCAA selection is absolutely beyond me, especially with his big goals in the Centennial Conference tournament and NCAAs, but I was glad to see that D3soccer.com had him as a first-team selection because he really was an incredible player. Another perfect example of an NSCAA head-scratcher from 2012: I would not have picked Kamali Webson of Roger Williams as a 2nd Team All-American. I don't care that he scored six goals and four game-winners as a CB, especially when his team averaged 1.00 goals against over the course of the season and, as a center back, his primary responsibility is defending. Carwile as a center back had a lot of goals this year, but he was the leader of a defensive unit who had a goals against average of 0.35 and was an Elite 8 squad. Trevor Hoxsie in 2013 – another Roger Williams player, another NSCAA 2nd Team selection who was a good player, scored some big goals, but for me a 3rd Team AA selection at best who played in a weak conference and went quiet in the second half of the season.
One other interesting D3soccer.com vs. NSCAA selection from last year was Tyler Savonen. 1st Team NSCAA All-American, yet not picked at all by D3soccer.com. I personally would have had him 2nd or 3rd team on my AA team, but I can very much understand D3soccer.com's reasons in omitting him. Best player and the figurehead of a team that made it to the Elite 8; however, he scored just two conference goals (albeit both of them winners) and went scoreless in the final 7 games of the season. In fact, he had
more goals
and assists the year before, both in conference
and out-of-conference. By that logic, if you're going to leave him out in 2013, then he should also have been left out in 2014 when he was less productive. Again, I understand there is more to the game than simply statistics, his leadership was vital to Brandeis going 17-2 in the regular season and getting to the Elite 8, and I still would have had him as an AA selection if I had been picking them – just trying to show that D3soccer.com wasn't completely off the mark there.
Bottom line: Obviously, these are examples that I'm hand-picking, and they're not representative of every good or bad selection that the NSCAA or D3soccer.com has made. Furthermore, I am human, and I will naturally have my opinions; sometimes they're quite bang on, sometimes they're not. However, from a logic perspective, when I see a trend of good, solid picks from one organization and head-scratchers from another, I'm inclined to give one more credence. For me, D3soccer.com has had many more good picks and fewer head-scratchers than the NSCAA, and so I give its AA selections more credence.
I say we all create our own list of First team all Americans based on this years stats and career stats
Great comments from everyone. I am hoping for a few more in-depth contributions from you all, as debate is far more interesting than the alternative.
With regard to the keeper picks, stats do matter, and not just save percentage. To what extent does the defense contribute towards a star keeper? How many times is the keeper really tested throughout the season?
It is a tough call to make when looking at all these great stat lines, yet there is more than one keeper this year that had amazing production with absolutely no help from his line. The problem is that those players end up on 12-8 teams in weaker conferences. I'd love to see an opportunity to have an award team of players who just might be very very special, but play in lessor known conferences.
Calvin's Niko Giantsopoulos:
#1 in Minutes played (2292.28)
#1 in Shutouts (19)
#2 in GAA (.236) #1 was Bull with .225
#3 in Save Percentage (.905). #1 was Bull (.936), #2 was Margotta (.908)
Margotta had 89 saves, Bull 73 saves, Giantsopoulos 57 saves.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on January 27, 2016, 01:22:36 PM
Calvin's Niko Giantsopoulos:
#1 in Minutes played (2292.28)
#1 in Shutouts (19)
#2 in GAA (.236) #1 was Bull with .225
#3 in Save Percentage (.905). #1 was Bull (.936), #2 was Margotta (.908)
Margotta had 89 saves, Bull 73 saves, Giantsopoulos 57 saves.
Nick Giantsopoulus has great stats and seems he also had the intangibles/leadership, skill with the ball at his feet, etc. that justifies thinking he and Bull should have been the 1-2 picks for GK All-Americans. But for those who didn't see him play much at all, the stats themselves do not make him a clear-cut choice.
First, Calvin didn't play one of the tougher schedules. In fact they had a rather low SoS (.518 according to the NCAA entering the conference playoffs). If SoS should be taken into account when considering stats so as not to disadvantage the players on teams playing tougher schedules and to not over-value gaudy stats accumulated against a weak slate of opponents, than some of the shine on Giantsopoulos' stats is lost.
Now, if we compare him, for example, to Salisbury's Drew Staedeli (whose selection has been criticized/questioned) over the course of the regular season and conference playoffs (pre-NCAA's), what can be noted?
• According to the NCAA, Calvin had a SoS of .518 and Salisbury had an SoS of .535. Both on the low side, but to the extent that those values are relatively accurate, Staedeli faced slightly better opponents overall.
• Across 21 pre-NCAA games, Giantsopoulus faced an average of 6.0 shots (per 90 min.) and an average of a mere 2.1 SOG (per 90 min.). In 19 pre-NCAA games, Staedeli faced an average of 12.9 shots and 5.5 SOG. So Staedeli obviously didn't have as good a defense playing in front of him, having faced over twice as many shots, and more importantly over two and a half as many SOG! We can only guess/speculate on whether the SOG Staedeli faced were, on average, of higher quality/more difficult than the SOG Giantsopoulus faced, but it wouldn't be unreasonable to suspect that.
• So, playing arguably a slighlty tougher pre-NCAA schedule with an inferior defense in front of him (and maybe having tougher, higher quality shots to deal with), Staedeli saved 90% of the 108 total SOG he faced. Giantsopoulus, playing arguable a slightly easier pre-NCAA schedule with a better defense in front of him, saved 91% of the 43 total SOG he faced. 90% against a slightly tougher schedule vs. 91% against an slightly easier schedule? 90% against two and a half as many SOG or 91% against two and half times fewer SOG? Looked at that way, it doesn't seem so outrageous to consider Staedeli. He had a lot more work to do and still put up virtually the same save pct.
• Giantsopoulus had the better GAA by far (0.20 vs. 0.56), but that's a product of facing so fewer SOG. Staedeli would have needed to save 96% of the SOG he faced to match Giantsopoulus's GAA. Not sure how you can blame a keeper for having had to face more shots and SOG, except to the extent you can conclude that his lack of organizing and communicating with his defense is at fault. (And it's for this reason I think save pct. is the much more telling stat for keepers than GAA.)
In those numbers and comparisons, I clearly see the case for Staedeli.
Now, that said, intangibles count, leadership counts, organization of your defense counts, skill with the ball at your feet count, getting the job down in the clutch (NCAA's) counts. Depending on how you rate the two keepers in those areas, that can overcome a statistically advantage or break a statistical tie. How many saw enough of both keepers, however, to make a definitive judgement and evaluation of the two in all those areas?
Anyway, my biggest point in the observations and comments above is to show that there are other ways of looking at things and sometimes there may be valid perspectives that differ from our own that we may not have considered. Giantsopoulus may still very well be the better GK and the more deserving honoree, but statistically-speaking, I don't think that's clear.
FW, that was a good effort, but NG seems like a pretty clear choice to me. The D3 selections, including or especially for the POY categories, seem to heavily weight post-season performance (like getting to the Final Four or at least deep in the tournament). This appears to be true with the women's choices as well.
I'm not going to delve deeply into all the stats, but in terms of the argument of having a good defense in front of you, D3soccer's GK of the year last year, Clougher, had arguably one of the best (and certainly most seasoned) back lines in front of him. He often was not very busy either. He had a really good GAA and save % but I bet the shot totals he had to deal with were fairly similar to the Calvin GK.
I would also compare the selection of Barnes of Kenyon to the 1st team. That selection had to be heavily influenced by his late season heroics (mostly PKs) as his overall stats wouldn't suggest the selection. By that standard, Nico G had very similar heroics in the post-season with a handful of dramatic game-saving breakaway saves. Almost everyone who followed Calvin's run and has posted intimated that Calvin doesn't get to the Final Four without his stellar GK play.
I would also suggest that the SoS factor is diminished by Calvin marching through top teams to the Final Four. They proved themselves to be a legitimate undefeated team.
Clougher 2014: 22/22 GP/GS 2033.55 / .896 SP / 60 SAVES / .310 GAA / 7 GA / 15 SO / MASSEY SOS: 64 - .544 NCAA before tournament
NG 2015: 26/25 GP/GS 2292.28 / .905 SP / 57 SAVES / .236 GAA / 6 GA / 19 SO / MASSEY SOS: 55 - .518 NCAA before tournament
Not NG fault in terms of schedule, but when the competition got stronger, he certainly stepped up.
In terms of SOS, then why would the below be considered over Rummelhart and Ryan;
Kyle Farrar, CSS (1st Team, NSCAA) - They play the Sisters of the Poor, Sisters of the Bankrupt, Sisters of the Middle Class, and Sisters of the Low Credit Score. Padded stats with boatloads of goals vs weak teams. MASSEY SOS: 273 - .488 NCAA
Nico Roth, Millsaps (2nd Team, NSCAA) MASSEY SOS: 229 .472 NCAA
Shaun Watt, Greensboro (2nd Team, NSCAA) MASSEY SOS: 266 - .453 NCAA
Matt Kinkopf, Ohio Northern (3rd Team, NSCAA) MASSEY SOS: 150 - .490 NCAA
Caleb Lucas, Maryville (Tenn.) (3rd Team, NSCAA) MASSEY SOS: 280 - .442 NCAA
Eirik Nordseth, Methodist (3rd Team, NSCAA) MASSEY SOS: 197 - .497 NCAA
----------------------------------------------------
Mike Ryan 3rd Team MASSEY SOS: 19 - .597 NCAA
Johnny Rummelhart 3rd Team MASSEY SOS: 12 - .602 NCAA
THREE Forwards from the USA-S were All-American?? What about Sevag Kherlopian from Kean, Mike Olla from MSU, Patrick Burns from CNU, Colofranson from Stockton? Maybe the South Atlantic just botched the voting? Who knows
As poor as Kean's out of conference schedule was, the MASSEY SOS was still 134th... Kherlopian is a beast.
Mike Ryan had 75 goals in 4 years....each year is a body of work on its own...however...against arguably the toughest of schedules among d3 teams throughout his 4 years, no other player in the country had more goals in D3. No one! He is a once in a lifetime player for any program....unless you are Messiah who just spits out quality point forwards.
In his SR year, he managed 18 goals on probably the 4th best Camden team in the last 5 years...and every game, a coach is trying to find a way to deal w him...which adds pressure to any top forward. Hazard hasn't scored a goal in almost 30 games for Chelsea... is just a bizarre example of this. If anything, Ryan not scoring in the last 5 games makes RUC late run all that more impressive. Maybe the attention people paid him helped the squad.
I am sorry but Chase Tenbrook (28 career goals and 12 on season) and Gilbert Waso (9 career) are not in the same class as Mike Ryan. Any educated coach in the country that saw all 3 players play could tell you that, but a flawed NSCAA voter system that's reliant on teams regular season wins that goes into an index benefits players for sure (I don't want to take away credence to Waso and Tenbrook- it's awesome for them that they got 1st team) but that's how it happens. Etown schedule was far easier then RUC, with F&M about .050 lower than RUC SOS. Come conference playoff time, of the 3 players, only Ryan's team won their league.
Coaches still have to vote for you....but Etown (17) and F&M (15) regular season wins helped the 2 players above and hurt Ryan (11) chances of 1st team.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on January 22, 2016, 09:28:42 PM
Gilbert Waso, 9G / 8A; 1st team AA as a FRESHMAN forward, and did not score a goal AFTER October 7th. The last 8 GAMES of the season and NO GOALS... it's a real head scratcher... it's not like Etown had a truly difficult schedule. 6 of the 9 goals came against the likes of .500 DeSales, 5 win Gwynedd Mercy who plays NO ONE, 4 win Wilkes and 4 win Juniata squad that was winless in the Landmark.
I have to agree. A Frosh 1st Team is almost unheard of as it usually takes a ton to make an all conference team as a frosh. Even if the kid was a senior this makes no sense.