Hi Board. Newby here. Son is a 2017 looking at a few schools in both NWC and SCIAC. From a baseball perspective only, any thoughts on how the conferences differ in terms of facilities, quality of coaching, level of competition, time commitment, etc. One thing I notice is that NWC is more spread out so there's more time on the bus. But maybe that's a good thing if kids are smart enough to study.
Better weather in SoCal, and our snow is neatly stored on local mountains where it can be visited and not interfere with practice or games. Also note the early Spring is when the Coeds are looking to rebuild their tans...just putting that out there. 8-)
An important general point, I think, is getting to play. Why toil on a team for 4 years for a handful of plate appearances or an inning or two of mop-up at a D3? Other than Cal Tech, most teams offer a rewarding competitive experience for the D3 level athlete. There are the top tier teams that that are vying for the playoffs every year - your kid needs to self evaluate if he can crack one of those lineups for satisfying playing time.
At D3 prices, unless a kid doesn't care about not playing much the last 4 years of his "scholastic" baseball career just to watch most of his games and the playoffs from the bench, being the bigger fish at the shallower end of the pond is not always a bad thing. I know plenty of kids that "play" at a D1, but have not played yet. That is baffling to me, and a waste, I think.
I have a hard time saying a kid goes wrong attending any school (baseball or education) in these two conferences, pick a coach he likes and a team that he thinks he will enjoy...best of luck to your son.
Thanks for the reply, Purple Heys. You raise some very good points about weather, coeds, etc. Son will be visiting some OR schools over winter break, and after seeing how pissed off he was this morning here in NorCal to be scraping ice off the windshield of the car, SoCal is probably going to look a lot nicer. But we'll see what coaches and what schools show him the love and his parents the money. I hear you on playing time D1 vs D3, though I didn't ask that question and it's not something we're going to worry about too much until it's time to make choices.
Quote from: MIFDad on December 08, 2015, 10:13:08 PM
Hi Board. Newby here. Son is a 2017 looking at a few schools in both NWC and SCIAC. From a baseball perspective only, any thoughts on how the conferences differ in terms of facilities, quality of coaching, level of competition, time commitment, etc. One thing I notice is that NWC is more spread out so there's more time on the bus. But maybe that's a good thing if kids are smart enough to study.
I will try to answer this bit by bit, at least for the NWC side. Let me preface it by saying I went to Linfield, but I had many friends play in the SCIAC and my brother went to a SCIAC school.
Terms of facilities: I think that the NWC has better facilities as a whole. A lot of this is due to the weather though. A lot of the NWC schools have nice/new turf fields, because of rain and the need to play/practice in that weather. The Regionals aren't hosted in SoCal that often because a lot of their facilities are lacking. With that being said there are some pretty nice places to play, Cal Lu and Redlands both come to mind.
Quality of coaching: This one is a bit of a toss up. I would say the NWC has better coaching, but their top two coaches just left their programs. The PLU coach is now the head coach at University of Portland, and the Linfield coach is now coaching for the Mariner's Triple-A team. The Whitworth coach is doing an amazing job as he just got their team to the West Regional. He was about to leave to take a job at Washington State, but that fell through (fortunately for Whitworth). I don't really know that much about the SCIAC, other than the whole Chapman debacle because a coach used mean words. ::)
Level of competition: This is pretty balanced too. I think that the West Region is the strongest in baseball, with the NWC, SCIAC and Texas leagues. I think that the NWC is better overall as a league, because the SCIAC has some real poor teams, but the top of the conferences are both really good. I mean, three teams from the NWC made a regional last year. And I think that PLU is the best team in the West Region (and maybe nation) for this upcoming year. The nice part about the SCIAC is that their location gets a lot of out-of-conference teams coming to visit. So they get unique matchups with some good teams. On the flip side, NWC teams find themselves heading to California, Texas, etc. in the preseason; allowing them to play some good teams.
Miscellaneous: If
weather is a big deal, SCIAC all the way. The NWC plays a lot of games in the rain or cold. Depending on the location, Oregon and Western Washington are very wet and Eastern Washington can be very cold. Of course, when it is nice out, the NW is about as good as it gets. Meanwhile, SoCal, obviously, is going to be sunny and hot almost every single day.
Travel is the Northwest really isn't that big of a deal. Linfield, George Fox, Willamette, Pacific, Lewis & Clark are all within an hour of each other. Even with the four teams in Washington, you are usually only looking at two long road trips a season, with the alternating schedules. And those are usually a good time since they team doesn't get to go out on the road/stay in a hotel that much. If
academics are important, I would probably give the lean towards the SCIAC.
Facilities: As I understand it, the SCIAC does not host postseason primarily because the facilities that would be of primary interest (Cal Lu, Redlands, La Verne) do not have lights. Chapman plays at a public park and is perfectly fine for baseball but isn't photogenic. Whittier field is fine but the backstop is too close and the stands are in bad shape and need to be addressed. Cal Tech is not up to snuff for a good High School field. I have no comment on Oxy, PP, and CMS because I have yet to attend a game at these venues. There are some minor league venues close in Rancho Cucamonga (La Verne) and San Bernardino (Redlands) if D3 wanted to go big as it seems to be a current trend.
Coaches: I thought the SCIAC coaches all did a nice job with what they had...including Cal Tech.
Level of Competition: D3 in the West Region can be as competitive as D3 gets.
Weather: It is all about organization and surveillance...In SoCal we store our snow in the Mountains (where the snow bunnies keep it under watch), and our water in the Pacific Ocean (where the beach bunnies keep it under watch). These bunnies have proven quite reliable having never lost a mountain or beach. 8-) And our baseball games are played when scheduled...(of course El Nino may have a say in this year's season)
Outstanding feedback, guys. Exactly what I was looking for. Sounds like either conference would be a great place to play. My son has visited a few schools in Socal - he's particularly interested in Oxy and Pomona/Pitzer (though I doubt he'd get in) and in Chapman somewhat, but he didn't love the field and its location off campus. Though the gym etc. is outstanding.
Westside, any thoughts on Willamette and L&C? We'll be visiting both soon. Looks like both have nice facilities and L&C in particular has a beautiful campus as well. Not sure yet how interested the kid is and how good a fit either is academically, but we'll be in Portland to visit family so we thought we should take a look.
Thanks.
Willamette - Pretty much middle of the pack as far as competitiveness. They tend to get a lot of recruits from California, for whatever the reason. It may be because they generally play third fiddle in the area to Linfield and George Fox (and non-D3 schools). But I really have no idea if that's true. They have a really young team, which could bode well for future seasons (a lot depends on development of youngsters), but they will likely struggle this year. In my memory, they have had a lot of good offensive players roll through lately; but their pitching has been lacking a little.
Lewis & Clark - They are pretty much the doormat of the conference. I can't remember the last time they were even middle of the pack. Don't get me wrong, they get some good players; but that's about it. I think they are the top academic school in the conference (maybe Whitman?), so it is really tough for them to get athletes. It is the same story in football. Their baseball team had 2 or 3 guys that could play for most teams in the conference, but the drop off is steep from there.
If you go by US News, Whitman is well above L & C. They have Willamette as #2, I think. My son does have a former teammate at Willamette who is happy there. Linfield and G Fox are both non-starters for him due to non-baseball and non-academic reasons. Whitman probably as well, which is fine by me as Walla Walla isn't easy to get to. He has a cousin at L & C who is loves it but I can't see my kid being too happy playing for a team that can't compete.
Thanks again.
MIFDad, I'll jump in with another perspective on the NWC. Three years ago we went through the same process you and your son are going through right now, so I'm well acquainted with the questions and considerations. Ultimately, my son chose UPS. He has friends who play at Linfield, Pacific, GFox and Willamette.
Academically, Whitworth, UPS and Willamette are the top tier, with Whitworth out front. L&C, while ranked similar to UPS and Willamette, isn't held in as high a regard. Don't know why, but in Oregon, L&C is seldom mentioned.
The distance between the schools in the NWC is somewhat mitigated if your son chooses one of the Oregon schools. They can all travel to and from games with each other in the same day. If, however, he chooses UPS or PLU (Tacoma) or Whitworth (Spokane) or Whitman (Walla Walla), travel is more extensive.
In terms of facilities, Linfield, PLU and Whitworth have infield turf. The other six schools play on grass. L&C has the weakest facilities in the conference and the field is probably below what you'll see at the HS level in California. Willamette's field is just off campus (a couple of blocks) and is average, to below-average. I know Willamette has been working on getting its outdoor cages enclosed. Don't know if that's completed. When my son visited in 2012, hitting cages were set up in the racquetball courts at Sparks Gym.
Pacific in Forest Grove has, surprisingly, very nice facilities. They're fairly new and the school has dumped in lots of money on the baseball/softball complex. Linfield has a great field. I'm not sure if the batting cages are fully enclosed and heated. Seems like they were open on one or two ends, but someone else can speak to that. But, it's important to note that in Oregon, if the hitting facilities are not totally enclosed, that's typically not that big a deal. It gets wet in the winter, but it isn't cold for long periods of time, meaning covered cages can be used most of the time. That's not the case at Whitworth and Whitman where winters are colder and they get more wind in eastern Washington. I don't know about the practice facilities at those two schools.
Both UPS and PLU have indoor cages. UPS has cages set up in the old gym. Don't recall where PLU's are located.
In terms of coaching, that's very subjective. But, it's most important to be sure the fit is good between your son and the coaching staff and the players. Regardless of whether the team is a perennial title contender or a doormat, if your son doesn't enjoy being around the players and coaches, he won't have a good college experience. Finding the right fit, both athletically and academically, is vital.
A previous poster commented on the opportunity to play and that's an excellent point and I just want to second his comments.
Finally, UPS went down to California last year and played Redlands, Pomona-Pitzer and Cal Lu. The fields were good, not great, but man the warm weather was awesome! And, from just that small sample set, the competition was similar to what we see in the NWC.
Hopefully this is helpful. Good luck, this is a great time so enjoy the ride.
+k West
That is indeed very helpful, WestisBest. Thanks for taking the time to share your perspective. I'm looking forward to seeing the schools up north.
I can throw some insight (100% my opinions) on the topic...
SCIAC
Top Fields
1. Redlands- amazing crew that keeps the field playing very nice
2. Cal Lu- great "stadium" feel
3. Pomona- very tight surroundings and a very short RF fence
4. Claremont- Very nice with the trees lining the outfield and plenty of space
5. La Verne- off campus which I don't like and the field always looks really dry
6. Chapman- Nice set up but it's a city park and the field gets used a ton
7. Oxy- tiny, tiny, tiny. Short fences make everyone try to hit HR's but it plays bigger
8. Whittier- They have done a lot of upgrades but I'm just not a fan of it
9. Cal Tech- decent playing surface, nothing for the fans
Coaching Style (no ranking)
1. Pomona- nothing fancy at all, just play the game and they do it well
2. Redlands- looking for speed as they are VERY aggressive
3. Cal Lu- another aggressive team and they play good D
4. Whittier- they can always hit but need help in the pitching area
5. Claremont- underachieve on a yearly basis. Good players but the coaching change comes at a good time
6. Cal Tech- the new coach has these guys playing the game the right way
7. Oxy- they have some talent but they play reckless baseball and it bites them in the back side
8. La Verne- very unorthodox coaching style but the results speak for themselves
9. Chapman- New coach from within the conference and I didn't think it was a good hire. TONS of talent in Orange County but they have really taken a step back the past few years.
Education
I honestly don't think you can go wrong with any of the schools in the SCIAC or NWC. It's all a matter of what your boy is looking for.
Not too much detail and nothing on the NWC as I am not as familiar but both conferences are solid and can compete at the national level. I think the SCIAC is going be be very tough at the top this year and the top of the NWC is pretty darn solid. Should be a great regional in Spokane.
Quote from: WestisBest on December 16, 2015, 02:46:47 PM
Academically, Whitworth, UPS and Willamette are the top tier, with Whitworth out front. L&C, while ranked similar to UPS and Willamette, isn't held in as high a regard. Don't know why, but in Oregon, L&C is seldom
Westisbest, I'm sure you just mis-typed, but Whitman, not Whitworth, is the highest academic school in NWC by a fairly decent margin.
Whitman! Yes! That just figures. Even when I'm speaking, I find I have to pause and try to remember which of the Whits is which!
Whitworth does have a lower acceptance rate than Whitman... for whatever that's worth!
Quote from: Westside on December 17, 2015, 06:52:25 PM
Whitworth does have a lower acceptance rate than Whitman... for whatever that's worth!
That is true. US News has the two schools in different categories so it's hard to compare. But those numbers are very arbitrary anyway. Top schools are top schools but you can stack the statistical components various ways to get various results. Admit rate is a good thing to look at, but kids self-select so it's not necessarily the most important number. Median SAT at Whitman is 1970, and 1778 at Whitworth. Fairly close, though Whitworth doesn't require SAT/ACT. But still, numbers don't mean as much as reputation, and even then you've got to find schools that are a good fit, and neither of those are. My kid wants a more urban setting than Whitman offers, and he doesn't want the overtly Christian education that Whitworth provides.
Jack Parkman, great round up. Thanks very much. I've seen just a few of those fields, but what I've seen matches my impression.
Re Willamette & Linfield: Both offer great merit aid to the better student. Linfield has a transparent scholarship calculator on their website plus a scholarship exam day to try and get more money. As Phds are not finding work at the higher-ranked institutions, they are rounding out the faculties quite nicely at a bunch of SLACs. I've been impressed with the faculty bios at both schools. WU's location across the street from the capitol building intrigues the various humanities and poli sci majors. Linfield athletes make up about 70% of the student pop. WildCat sports seem to be well-attended by students and locals. Not so much at WU. Profs at Linfield tend to be outdoors-y. Salem is, obviously, a larger town than McMinnville with all that implies.
JMHO: At the individual level, #motivation beats out #rankings each and every time. ;)
i think another thing you should look out for is recruitment philosophies, likelihood of playing as a freshman,whether chances of winning a spot on the varsity as opposed to a JV squad. I would ask coaches up front about these issues. Some but not all schools in the two conferences have JV teams. I think in the SCIAC, I think it's just Occidental and Cal Lu. I'm pretty sure Linfield has a JV team too. And I think Pacific started a JV squad this past year -- or maybe it's this coming year. I'd want to know from the coach how likely it is a frosh will be playing JV and how hard it is to move up from the JV to the varsity. I'd also want to know how many frosh are likely to be brought in in any given year and how many are likely to be cut. I gather, for example, that Cal Lu tends to bring in a relatively large number of frosh but to cut many of them after fall ball. Pomona, by contrast, I gather brings in many fewer frosh and that if you are recruited you pretty much are recruited to at least a position on the depth chart.
Direct questions to the coaches are the best way to get the answers you are looking for.
Absolutely agree with SluggerDad re getting info on JV teams. Lots of Freshmen show up in Fall. Not so many play in Spring.
BTW, interesting to see that pre-season D3 poll/ranking. How does Trinity end up at #27 on the CB poll? That's a stumper for me.
Update - just got back from spending the holidays in Portland and visiting some of the schools mentioned. Son a) thought L&C was absolutely beautiful b) has decided that it's too damn cold up there! If a NW D1 comes knocking I'm sure he'll answer the door, otherwise he wants to go where it's warm.