D3boards.com

Just getting this topic started.

Every year I note here the schools that are losing their D3 men's basketball tournament virginity. Congratulations to the following programs that will be participating in the tournament for the first time ever:

Case Western Reserve
Eastern
Vassar
Wilson

The going rate for tickets this season appears to be $15.  I have not been to a postseason basketball game since 2018, but this is substantially higher than Division III soccer.

That is definitely jacked up. Weren't D3 soccer tournament tickets $5 this past fall?

There seems likely to be very few interesting first round games this year.  The second round, however, is going to feature a lot of upsets. These ten potential match-ups all look quite even to me should they come to fruition, like, pretty much coin-toss games.  It's a really deep field and a LOT of home teams are not going to advance to the round of 16.

Illinois Wesleyan v. Lacrosse
Mount Union v. Williams
Stockton v. Yeshiva or Hopkins
WPI v. St. Joe's
Wash U. v. Wheaton
Emory v. Wabash
Elmhurst v. Pomona
MHB v. Whitworth
Swarthmore v. Oswego
Nazareth v. UMD

They were either $5 or $7 in St. Louis for the Women's Soccer tournament.

I have paid to attend other Division III games, but the most I have ever paid during the regular season is $7.

I am sure a lot of institutions subsidize the cost for students, but at some point, the price elasticity is such that people will choose to watch the stream instead.  $15 still seems high relative to the market and the otherwise low cost of regular season games.

Quote from: nescac1 on March 01, 2022, 10:40:06 AM

Wash U. v. Wheaton
Emory v. Wabash

I watched both Wheaton and Hope more times than I would have in a normal season and both teams look incredibly dangerous.  That first round is a pickem in my mind.

I love the Emory vs. Wabash match-up as it features two all-American candidates that get talked about less than the guys from Yeshiva, Randolph Macon and so on.

Quote from: WUPHF on March 01, 2022, 09:51:44 AM
The going rate for tickets this season appears to be $15.  I have not been to a postseason basketball game since 2018, but this is substantially higher than Division III soccer.

What defines going rate? Just curious as to how many first-weekend sites this represents.

Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 01, 2022, 10:56:15 AM
What defines going rate? Just curious as to how many first-weekend sites this represents.

That was three locations including Washington University, Elmhurst and one other so maybe not the going rate.  Oshkosh or Platteville.  Not everyone has the ticket price in the release (i.e. Illinois Wesleyan).  Do the hosts set their own ticket prices?

Quote from: WUPHF on March 01, 2022, 10:44:45 AM
They were either $5 or $7 in St. Louis for the Women's Soccer tournament.

I have paid to attend other Division III games, but the most I have ever paid during the regular season is $7.

I am sure a lot of institutions subsidize the cost for students, but at some point, the price elasticity is such that people will choose to watch the stream instead.  $15 still seems high relative to the market and the otherwise low cost of regular season games.

$15 seems to be the going rate for first and second round tickets for the NCAA DIII Men's Basketball Tournament this year.  The DIII Women's Basketball Tournament seems to have set its ticket price for first and second rounds at $10 per round.

This is based on WPI and Wesleyan men's sites having ticket prices this weekend at $15 per day and the Tufts women's site having their ticket prices at $10 per day.

With tournament sites still requiring mask-wearing and discouraging eating and drinking at games, a lot of neutral fans who otherwise may want to go watch games in person are going to be staying home to watch the streams instead.  Perhaps these prices are set at such a high price to make sure that costs for hosting the rounds break even at a low audience of 200 spectators per round, and that a large in-person live attendance is not going to be anticipated at most tournament sites anyway this season due to people still taking pandemic precautions.

$10 for students, fyi.

At least in Worcester, masks are optional - but must show proof of vax or negative covid test within 3 days of games.

I think Harrington still has limited capacity restrictions (although not certain of this one).

Also - cool random stat - the 4 teams at WPI this weekend are a combined 91-14.

JHU v Yeshiva has to top 1st round games, unless it's Hope v Wheaton. A very good JHU team v the hyped Yeshiva. Can they put that IWU loss behind them and get a signature win in the tourney?

Nichols v RPI as well.

Quote from: WPI89 on March 01, 2022, 11:16:57 AM
At least in Worcester, masks are optional - but must show proof of vax or negative covid test within 3 days of games.

I think Harrington still has limited capacity restrictions (although not certain of this one).

Also - cool random stat - the 4 teams at WPI this weekend are a combined 91-14.

The spectator mask policies are, of course, set by the home institutions.   Masks are currently optional indoors on the WPI campus as of Sunday, Feb. 13, 2022.  WPI89 is correct on the proof of vax or negative covid test requirement for external guests to attend WPI games.   

Current capacity limits are still in effect, depending on the space used.

Can someone explain how Swarthmore is hosting games this weekend, while Hopkins has to go on the road?  Makes absolutely no sense to me.  Hopkins just knocked them off for the league title, has a better record, is ranked higher and (if I am reading the ratings correctly) a stronger strength of schedule.  I suspect the answer will be that Swat beat Hopkins twice during the season and has non-conf wins over three other NCAA qualifiers (Susquehanna, Stevens, Neumann).  But Swat is also the same team that got beaten down on their home floor by a depleted Muhlenberg team, lost on their home floor to Widener (the 6th place team in the MAC Commonwealth), and lost on the road to solid, but inconsistent teams Dickinson and Ursinus.  Hopkins 3 losses were to #4 Christopher Newport and twice to Swat.  On top of this you have Oswego State in the Swarthmore pod, who should also be hosting before Swat.  Is this some kind of nod to Swat from two years ago when the tourney was cancelled and they were the number 1 team? 

Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 01, 2022, 11:22:24 AM
JHU v Yeshiva has to top 1st round games, unless it's Hope v Wheaton. A very good JHU team v the hyped Yeshiva. Can they put that IWU loss behind them and get a signature win in the tourney?

Nichols v RPI as well.

As Yeshiva's Matan Zucker played for Brandeis in his first season, I am rooting for Yeshiva to beat Johns Hopkins on Friday.

I agree that Swat hosting over a bunch of teams -- Williams, St. Joe's, Hopkins, Oswego, maybe others -- is egregious.  Their resume simply does not warrant a home pod, they had some pretty bad losses and no very impressive wins outside Hopkins.  And all those teams are from the northeast, as well, so I imagine some could have been (I would think) switched out for Swarthmore. 

That, and Emory getting a top seed in a quarter of the bracket instead of Wesleyan, who not only was relegated to a second seed but paired with the top overall seed in the tournament in RMC, are the two most cryptic decisions by the committee this year. 

Quote from: Stretch4 on March 01, 2022, 11:29:50 AM
Can someone explain how Swarthmore is hosting games this weekend, while Hopkins has to go on the road?  Makes absolutely no sense to me.  Hopkins just knocked them off for the league title, has a better record, is ranked higher and (if I am reading the ratings correctly) a stronger strength of schedule.  I suspect the answer will be that Swat beat Hopkins twice during the season and has non-conf wins over three other NCAA qualifiers (Susquehanna, Stevens, Neumann).  But Swat is also the same team that got beaten down on their home floor by a depleted Muhlenberg team, lost on their home floor to Widener (the 6th place team in the MAC Commonwealth), and lost on the road to solid, but inconsistent teams Dickinson and Ursinus.  Hopkins 3 losses were to #4 Christopher Newport and twice to Swat.  On top of this you have Oswego State in the Swarthmore pod, who should also be hosting before Swat.  Is this some kind of nod to Swat from two years ago when the tourney was cancelled and they were the number 1 team?

Swarthmore was ranked ahead of JHU in the final regional rankings. They also best JHU twice. So, head to head, Swat probably deserves to host before JHU. There's no "well, two years ago..." stuff going on. It doesn't work that way. Also, maybe, travel may be a part of it.

https://d3hoops.com/notables/2022/02/men-regional-rankings-final

During the season at CNU tickets are $10 for chairbacks. $5 general admission. Students are free

Will be interesting to see ticket prices for this weekend. I imagine they will be $15 and $10. I presume students will still be free. But not sure.

I don't imagine tickets will be free for anyone. It's NCAA post season. Even $5 for students, possibly.

Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 01, 2022, 12:16:49 PM
I don't imagine tickets will be free for anyone. It's NCAA post season. Even $5 for students, possibly.

I have to think that $10 is the NCAA rate for students, but there are schools that subsidize the tickets for students.

1st round NCAA women @ Scranton: Tickets are $10 for adults and $7 for seniors (61 and over), students and children (ages two and up). Student tickets are permissible for grade school, high school and college students with identification.

Quote from: nescac1 on March 01, 2022, 10:40:06 AM
There seems likely to be very few interesting first round games this year.  The second round, however, is going to feature a lot of upsets. These ten potential match-ups all look quite even to me should they come to fruition, like, pretty much coin-toss games.  It's a really deep field and a LOT of home teams are not going to advance to the round of 16.

Illinois Wesleyan v. Lacrosse
Mount Union v. Williams
Stockton v. Yeshiva or Hopkins
WPI v. St. Joe's
Wash U. v. Wheaton
Emory v. Wabash
Elmhurst v. Pomona
MHB v. Whitworth
Swarthmore v. Oswego
Nazareth v. UMD

w/d3hoops poll rankings
#7 Illinois Wesleyan v. # 14 Lacrosse
#11 Mount Union v. #22 Williams
#23 Stockton v. #19 Yeshiva or #10 Hopkins
#13 WPI v. #9 St. Joe's
RV Wash U. v. #18 Wheaton
#12 Emory v. #15 Wabash
#16 Elmhurst v. RV Pomona
#6 MHB v. #25 Whitworth
#20 Swarthmore v. #17 Oswego
RV Nazareth v. RV UMD

Quote from: nescac1 on March 01, 2022, 10:40:06 AM
There seems likely to be very few interesting first round games this year.  The second round, however, is going to feature a lot of upsets. These ten potential match-ups all look quite even to me should they come to fruition, like, pretty much coin-toss games.  It's a really deep field and a LOT of home teams are not going to advance to the round of 16.

Swarthmore v. Oswego

This will be a classic matchup, Swarthmore has a lot of size, but Oswego, while smallish is deep, very athletic and quick on both ends of the floor.  Lakers are probably out to prove something, going 25-2 [losses by 2 and 1 point] and not getting a R1/R2 host spot. The SUNYAC conference unfortunately had a lot of parity, [2-6 seeds had an average of 7 conference losses] which reduced the number of regionally ranked teams, and limited Oswego's opportunity to build a strong RRO resume.

Quote from: Stretch4 on March 01, 2022, 11:29:50 AM
Can someone explain how Swarthmore is hosting games this weekend, while Hopkins has to go on the road?  Makes absolutely no sense to me.  Hopkins just knocked them off for the league title, has a better record, is ranked higher and (if I am reading the ratings correctly) a stronger strength of schedule.  I suspect the answer will be that Swat beat Hopkins twice during the season and has non-conf wins over three other NCAA qualifiers (Susquehanna, Stevens, Neumann).  But Swat is also the same team that got beaten down on their home floor by a depleted Muhlenberg team, lost on their home floor to Widener (the 6th place team in the MAC Commonwealth), and lost on the road to solid, but inconsistent teams Dickinson and Ursinus.  Hopkins 3 losses were to #4 Christopher Newport and twice to Swat.  On top of this you have Oswego State in the Swarthmore pod, who should also be hosting before Swat.  Is this some kind of nod to Swat from two years ago when the tourney was cancelled and they were the number 1 team?

I doubt that's a nod to anything other than this year's criteria. Swarthmore did win two out of three and the SOS is basically a wash.

Map of the teams: https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1ML8jI-J3SqHivu7S4uNZ4Jeh7wYbNoh7&ll=39.199163955444455%2C-93.323478&z=4

Quote from: WUPHF on March 01, 2022, 11:00:07 AM

Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 01, 2022, 10:56:15 AM
What defines going rate? Just curious as to how many first-weekend sites this represents.

Do the hosts set their own ticket prices?

I'll chime in here.

Our league (the CCIW) sets league tournament ticket prices and then the NCAA sets regional (and beyond) playoff ticket prices for the host institution. Every cent goes back to the CCIW/NCAA at the conclusion of the respective tournament - ticket sales, NCAA merch, etc.

Hosts "bid" what the cost will be to host and the NCAA reimburses them, but nothing more. At the Division III level, it's an honor and an advantage to host but there is certainly no monetary gain from it.

Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 01, 2022, 12:16:49 PM
I don't imagine tickets will be free for anyone. It's NCAA post season. Even $5 for students, possibly.

dont most schools buy a block of student tickets so that the kids can go for free?

Quote from: D3fanboy on March 01, 2022, 02:14:36 PM

Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 01, 2022, 12:16:49 PM
I don't imagine tickets will be free for anyone. It's NCAA post season. Even $5 for students, possibly.

dont most schools buy a block of student tickets so that the kids can go for free?

I don't know if it is most, but that is a common practice, yes.

Quote from: npbaseball40 on March 01, 2022, 02:05:22 PM

Quote from: WUPHF on March 01, 2022, 11:00:07 AM

Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 01, 2022, 10:56:15 AM
What defines going rate? Just curious as to how many first-weekend sites this represents.

Do the hosts set their own ticket prices?

I'll chime in here.

Our league (the CCIW) sets league tournament ticket prices and then the NCAA sets regional (and beyond) playoff ticket prices for the host institution. Every cent goes back to the CCIW/NCAA at the conclusion of the respective tournament - ticket sales, NCAA merch, etc.

Hosts "bid" what the cost will be to host and the NCAA reimburses them, but nothing more. At the Division III level, it's an honor and an advantage to host but there is certainly no monetary gain from it.

The NCAA used to suggest prices, then set minimum prices. I must admit to not having read that part of the handbook in ages.

Quote from: Stretch4 on March 01, 2022, 11:29:50 AM
Can someone explain how Swarthmore is hosting games this weekend, while Hopkins has to go on the road?  Makes absolutely no sense to me.  Hopkins just knocked them off for the league title, has a better record, is ranked higher and (if I am reading the ratings correctly) a stronger strength of schedule.  I suspect the answer will be that Swat beat Hopkins twice during the season and has non-conf wins over three other NCAA qualifiers (Susquehanna, Stevens, Neumann).  But Swat is also the same team that got beaten down on their home floor by a depleted Muhlenberg team, lost on their home floor to Widener (the 6th place team in the MAC Commonwealth), and lost on the road to solid, but inconsistent teams Dickinson and Ursinus.  Hopkins 3 losses were to #4 Christopher Newport and twice to Swat.  On top of this you have Oswego State in the Swarthmore pod, who should also be hosting before Swat.  Is this some kind of nod to Swat from two years ago when the tourney was cancelled and they were the number 1 team?

Head-to-head, Swat still has a 2-1 advantage.

Swat was 5-1 vRRO; Hopkins was 2-3. Swat's lone loss in that category was Hopkins; one of Hopkins wins was to Swat. Otherwise 3-0 for Swat and 1-1 for Hopkins.

SOS was nearly identical: Swat .545 and Hopkins .543.

Because of the head-to-head and vRRO the advantage goes to Swat.

As a result, Swat finished #1 in Region 5 and Hopkins #2.

Quote from: WUPHF on March 01, 2022, 10:44:45 AM
They were either $5 or $7 in St. Louis for the Women's Soccer tournament.

I have paid to attend other Division III games, but the most I have ever paid during the regular season is $7.

I am sure a lot of institutions subsidize the cost for students, but at some point, the price elasticity is such that people will choose to watch the stream instead.  $15 still seems high relative to the market and the otherwise low cost of regular season games.

I paid $5 at the U of C's Stagg Field to attend the D3 men's soccer tourney sectional semifinal game between North Park and St. Olaf this past November. That's what I thought NPU also charged the previous weekend (I didn't pay, of course, since I was working the games as the broadcaster) and it's what I recall paying in the past for other D3 tournaments (men's soccer, men's basketball, and baseball) tourneys I've attended at various schools for as far back as I can remember. I kinda figured that it was the fixed rate agreed upon at some NCAA convention a long time ago.

Quote from: npbaseball40 on March 01, 2022, 02:05:22 PM
Our league (the CCIW) sets league tournament ticket prices and then the NCAA sets regional (and beyond) playoff ticket prices for the host institution. Every cent goes back to the CCIW/NCAA at the conclusion of the respective tournament - ticket sales, NCAA merch, etc.

Hosts "bid" what the cost will be to host and the NCAA reimburses them, but nothing more. At the Division III level, it's an honor and an advantage to host but there is certainly no monetary gain from it.

Thanks.  I understood this to be the case.

The NCAA does tightly control everything.  Unsold t-shirts, for example, have to be returned, if I remember correctly.

I guess what I was unsure of was whether the host site was provided a minimum and then allowed to add to the cost, as Pat Coleman mentioned, or if that was set price.

I am surprised it is not a set price for all locations (excluding subsidies), but yeah, $15 is a lot more than I can ever remember paying for a postseason game.

I'll be happy to pay $15, but I was surprised by that number.

Yeah - to confirm - ticket prices are set by the NCAA. Even though it is at a school, it is considered an NCAA event and the NCAA is in charge of everything, not the school.

Information about recommended ticket prices is no longer part of the NCAA pre-championship manual.

I've been told the NCAA sets the floor on ticket prices. Schools can charge more if they want.
CNU is charging $15 for reserved seating (which is the floor, I believe). Not sure about general admission. Students are free and CNU pays the bill

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 01, 2022, 02:37:00 PM

Head-to-head, Swat still has a 2-1 advantage.

Swat was 5-1 vRRO; Hopkins was 2-3. Swat's lone loss in that category was Hopkins; one of Hopkins wins was to Swat. Otherwise 3-0 for Swat and 1-1 for Hopkins.

SOS was nearly identical: Swat .545 and Hopkins .543.

Because of the head-to-head and vRRO the advantage goes to Swat.

As a result, Swat finished #1 in Region 5 and Hopkins #2.
[/quote]

Thank you for the reply with the numbers and ranking logic. It is what it is but in this case the numbers don't tell the story (IMO). I totally get the Swat beat JHU twice thing, but not all RRO are created equal.  JHU's other RRO loss was to the #4 team in the country on their home floor, while Swat's other RRO wins are against teams not ranked and one receiving votes.  So the RRO w/l value must not factor in any kind of weighting for the RRO, just the fact that it is a RRO.  Centennial Conference fan so I watch and follow the teams in the league closely.  Swat had plenty of nights where they looked like a top seed, but also had plenty of nights where they looked far less than that (see home loss to Widener and home beating they took from Muhlenberg among others).  JHU played like a top seed every night (even in their 3 losses).  Both end up with really tough draws in the opening weekend, so it will be interesting to see how they make out. 

FWIW - I plugged in Ken Massey's analytics to the first round bracket:

Oshkosh Bracket
Biggest predicted margin - 29.5 pts Blackburn @ Oshkosh
Closest Games - Chapman @ Mary Hardin-Baylor -4.5 pts & Calvin vs. St. John's MN -4.5 pts
Smallest combined Massey rating - Calvin (29) vs. St. John's MN (17)

Emory Bracket
Biggest predicted margin - 17.5 pts Franklin @ Illinois Wesleyan
Closest Game = Berry vs. Wabash -5.5 pts
Smallest combined Massey rating - Heidelberg (27) vs. UW- Lacrosse (7)


Marietta Bracket
Biggest Predicted Margin - 33.5 pts Medaille @ Marietta
Closest Game - Susquehanna vs Rowan -5.5 pts & Yeshiva vs Johns Hopkins -5.5pts
Smallest combined Massey rating - Yeshiva (35) vs. Johns Hopkins (11) 

Randolph Macon Bracket
Biggest Predicted Margin - 33.5 pts Mitchell @ Randolph-Macon
Closest Game [in the entire round] Nichols vs. Rensselaer -0.5 pts
Smallest combined Massey rating - Emerson(65) vs. Mass-Dartmouth (23)

Strongest Bracket - WI-Oshkosh - average Massey of 47
Weakest Bracket -  Randolph-Macon - average Massey of 81

Quote from: thebear on March 01, 2022, 06:38:29 PM
FWIW - I plugged in Ken Massey's analytics to the first round bracket:

Oshkosh Bracket
Biggest predicted margin - 29.5 pts Blackburn @ Oshkosh
Closest Games - Chapman @ Mary Hardin-Baylor -4.5 pts & Calvin vs. St. John's MN -4.5 pts
Smallest combined Massey rating - Calvin (29) vs. St. John's MN (17)

Emory Bracket
Biggest predicted margin - 17.5 pts Franklin @ Illinois Wesleyan
Closest Game = Berry vs. Wabash -5.5 pts
Smallest combined Massey rating - Heidelberg (27) vs. UW- Lacrosse (7)


Marietta Bracket
Biggest Predicted Margin - 33.5 pts Medaille @ Marietta
Closest Game - Susquehanna vs Rowan -5.5 pts & Yeshiva vs Johns Hopkins -5.5pts
Smallest combined Massey rating - Yeshiva (35) vs. Johns Hopkins (11) 

Randolph Macon Bracket
Biggest Predicted Margin - 33.5 pts Mitchell @ Randolph-Macon
Closest Game [in the entire round] Nichols vs. Rensselaer -0.5 pts
Smallest combined Massey rating - Emerson(65) vs. Mass-Dartmouth (23)

Strongest Bracket - WI-Oshkosh - average Massey of 47
Weakest Bracket -  Randolph-Macon - average Massey of 81

Good stuff - but a word of caution if you are using Massey's games listing for Friday.  In that format, he has designated a home team in each game and so the first set of games in each pod that are actually neutral court, are showing as a home game for one team. 

Example:

In his games listing he shows Hope @ Wheaton with this predicted score
Hope 73
Wheaton 79

If you use the matchup tool to correctly compare them as a neutral site game, he predicts this score:
Hope 73
Wheaton 77

Thanks for the catch.

So adjusting for the teams playing "neutral" site games:

Oshkosh Bracket
Closest Game
Calvin vs. St. Johns -3.0 @ WI-Platteville

Emory Bracket
Berry vs. Wabash -4.0 points, @ Emory - although Berry has a very short trip, Wabash a 530 mile bus ride

Marietta Bracket
Yeshiva vs. Johns Hopkins -3.0 @Stockton

Randolph Macon Bracket
Nichols vs. Rensselaer -3.0 @ Wesleyan

Personally, I have never seen the DIII Basketball Tournament paraphernalia (t-shirts and hats) available to order on-line.  It looks exclusive to be sold to people who personally attend the DIII Tournament games.

I think the NCAA could make a little more money if some of the tournament merchandise could be bought on-line, especially this season where fans who otherwise might go to the early round games may elect to stay home and watch them on streaming video either to save some money, or to have the option to eat snacks and beverages while watching.

4:15 PM Eastern update-- CWRU men's basketball coach Todd McGuiness referred me to a link that took me to fanatics.com (http://fanatics.com), and I have taken a look at that link and shopncaasports.com (http://shopncaasports.com) before, but those sites are very Division 1 centric, and if I wanted merchandise from the upcoming Division 1 men's and women's basketball tournaments, those would be very easy to purchase on line for the reason that Division 1 caters to the general public's entertainment needs as their primary purpose.  I have never found merchandise from the DII and DIII tournaments available for on-line purchase, but I have found plenty from DI tournaments.

A lot of leftover NCAA clothes goes out to a wholesaler that then sells it to Marshalls / TJ Maxx. I am not sure why they don't also do an online store when that is easier to do than ever before.

Quote from: deiscanton on March 02, 2022, 02:23:42 PM
Personally, I have never seen the DIII Basketball Tournament paraphernalia (t-shirts and hats) available to order on-line.  It looks exclusive to be sold to people who personally attend the DIII Tournament games.

I think the NCAA could make a little more money if some of the tournament merchandise could be bought on-line, especially this season where fans who otherwise might go to the early round games may elect to stay home and watch them on streaming video either to save some money, or to have the option to eat snacks and beverages while watching.

4:15 PM Eastern update-- CWRU men's basketball coach Todd McGuiness referred me to a link that took me to fanatics.com (http://fanatics.com), and I have taken a look at that link and shopncaasports.com (http://shopncaasports.com) before, but those sites are very Division 1 centric, and if I wanted merchandise from the upcoming Division 1 men's and women's basketball tournaments, those would be very easy to purchase on line for the reason that Division 1 caters to the general public's entertainment needs as their primary purpose.  I have never found merchandise from the DII and DIII tournaments available for on-line purchase, but I have found plenty from DI tournaments.

Just had a browse of the list of schools at the shopncaasports.com (https://www.shopncaasports.com/college/o-16+z-9110355091-3373824134) site which seems to be part of Fanatics so they have the same things... I don't think they put any effort/research on the small colleges. Looked at a few schools and it's pretty much all the same generic t-shirts with a logo or little items with the school name type of stuff. They have no Franklin College but do have Franklin University and their logo... a school that is mostly an online school with no athletics. ::) Looked a little more, only 1 out of 10 HCAC schools (Hanover) were even listed.

It's hard to get decent gear from any college, even the big ones.

Quote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on March 02, 2022, 09:11:50 PM

Quote from: deiscanton on March 02, 2022, 02:23:42 PM
Personally, I have never seen the DIII Basketball Tournament paraphernalia (t-shirts and hats) available to order on-line.  It looks exclusive to be sold to people who personally attend the DIII Tournament games.

I think the NCAA could make a little more money if some of the tournament merchandise could be bought on-line, especially this season where fans who otherwise might go to the early round games may elect to stay home and watch them on streaming video either to save some money, or to have the option to eat snacks and beverages while watching.

4:15 PM Eastern update-- CWRU men's basketball coach Todd McGuiness referred me to a link that took me to fanatics.com (http://fanatics.com), and I have taken a look at that link and shopncaasports.com (http://shopncaasports.com) before, but those sites are very Division 1 centric, and if I wanted merchandise from the upcoming Division 1 men's and women's basketball tournaments, those would be very easy to purchase on line for the reason that Division 1 caters to the general public's entertainment needs as their primary purpose.  I have never found merchandise from the DII and DIII tournaments available for on-line purchase, but I have found plenty from DI tournaments.

Just had a browse of the list of schools at the shopncaasports.com (https://www.shopncaasports.com/college/o-16+z-9110355091-3373824134) site which seems to be part of Fanatics so they have the same things... I don't think they put any effort/research on the small colleges. Looked at a few schools and it's pretty much all the same generic t-shirts with a logo or little items with the school name type of stuff. They have no Franklin College but do have Franklin University and their logo... a school that is mostly an online school with no athletics. ::) Looked a little more, only 1 out of 10 HCAC schools (Hanover) were even listed.

A lot of schools use bkstr.com. I believe the schools have a little more input as to what goes on with the site. CNU named the store The Captains Locker and the webpage reflects that in the address when you go to that page.  I know the topic of discussion was official NCAA sales. But I wandered off topic a bit.

I did find this for you...

https://www.bkstr.com/franklinstore/home (https://www.bkstr.com/franklinstore/home)

I have seen several schools offering a limited number of free student tickets to the tournament games.

Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 03, 2022, 11:37:06 AM
I have seen several schools offering a limited number of free student tickets to the tournament games.

Which in the past has always meant the school or some benefactor purchasing said tickets on the students behalf.  I would assume the is happening this year.

Just an update regarding how to order DIII Championship merchandise on line--

The actual website that one can order the merchandise from is:  event1teamstore.com (http://event1teamstore.com)

If you place a "dot" between event1 and teamstore.com, it just refers you to fanatics.com (http://fanatics.com)

The merchandise is custom ordered and printed on demand-- but an individual can create an account on the Event1 website and place an order for the DIII Championship merchandise.  Unless you buy the merchandise direct at the tournament sites, the items will take 3 to 4 weeks to ship to you.

The cheapest t-shirts go for $30 and are only available up to a 2xl size.  The $30 price is the going price for t-shirts that have the sectional fields for second weekend action.

T-shirts with the entire field on them have a going price of $32 from Event1.

Quote from: Flying Dutch Fan on March 03, 2022, 12:15:48 PM

Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 03, 2022, 11:37:06 AM
I have seen several schools offering a limited number of free student tickets to the tournament games.

Which in the past has always meant the school or some benefactor purchasing said tickets on the students behalf.  I would assume the is happening this year.

Of course. The NCAA is too cheap to actually give away free student tickets!

Speaking of...how many 1st round flights were there?

Three flights, I believe.

Quote from: Flying Dutch Fan on March 03, 2022, 12:15:48 PM

Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 03, 2022, 11:37:06 AM
I have seen several schools offering a limited number of free student tickets to the tournament games.

Which in the past has always meant the school or some benefactor purchasing said tickets on the students behalf.  I would assume the is happening this year.

Exactly what is happening. I wonder if the NCAA charges less for student tickets. I would think so. But, you never know. CNU pays for all students who attend. I remember some other quirks about NCAA hosting as well. I think the Carney-Smith Reception room will be closed at halftime. (There goes my dinner plans!).

Also -Only 25 pep band members (CNU's pep band is close to 100) and 12 combined cheer/dance teams. Each team has more than that.  Better than nothing I guess. But it sure takes away from the atmosphere which is what I thought the ncaa tried to encourage and the purpose of being able to host games....to be rewarded for your season. The experience at CNU will be watered down compared to regular season games. And that's a shame for all 4 teams.

Game Day, folks - good luck to all!

Quote from: CNU85 on March 04, 2022, 09:00:55 AM

Quote from: Flying Dutch Fan on March 03, 2022, 12:15:48 PM

Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 03, 2022, 11:37:06 AM
I have seen several schools offering a limited number of free student tickets to the tournament games.

Which in the past has always meant the school or some benefactor purchasing said tickets on the students behalf.  I would assume the is happening this year.

Exactly what is happening. I wonder if the NCAA charges less for student tickets. I would think so. But, you never know. CNU pays for all students who attend. I remember some other quirks about NCAA hosting as well. I think the Carney-Smith Reception room will be closed at halftime. (There goes my dinner plans!).

Also -Only 25 pep band members (CNU's pep band is close to 100) and 12 combined cheer/dance teams. Each team has more than that.  Better than nothing I guess. But it sure takes away from the atmosphere which is what I thought the ncaa tried to encourage and the purpose of being able to host games....to be rewarded for your season. The experience at CNU will be watered down compared to regular season games. And that's a shame for all 4 teams.

And, for all teams, not just hosts, - only 15 uniformed players -  a few others can sit on bench, but can't be in uniform.

Quote from: ronk on March 04, 2022, 10:16:41 AM

Quote from: CNU85 on March 04, 2022, 09:00:55 AM

Quote from: Flying Dutch Fan on March 03, 2022, 12:15:48 PM

Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 03, 2022, 11:37:06 AM
I have seen several schools offering a limited number of free student tickets to the tournament games.

Which in the past has always meant the school or some benefactor purchasing said tickets on the students behalf.  I would assume the is happening this year.

Exactly what is happening. I wonder if the NCAA charges less for student tickets. I would think so. But, you never know. CNU pays for all students who attend. I remember some other quirks about NCAA hosting as well. I think the Carney-Smith Reception room will be closed at halftime. (There goes my dinner plans!).

Also -Only 25 pep band members (CNU's pep band is close to 100) and 12 combined cheer/dance teams. Each team has more than that.  Better than nothing I guess. But it sure takes away from the atmosphere which is what I thought the ncaa tried to encourage and the purpose of being able to host games....to be rewarded for your season. The experience at CNU will be watered down compared to regular season games. And that's a shame for all 4 teams.

And, for all teams, not just hosts, - only 15 uniformed players -  a few others can sit on bench, but can't be in uniform.

As it has been for many years

And, for all teams, not just hosts, - only 15 uniformed players -  a few others can sit on bench, but can't be in uniform.
[/quote]

I noticed for example that Oswego carries 21 on their roster, and every one of those players saw time in at least 7 games. They have 10 who average at least 10 minutes, and 11 who have played in at least 20 games. Tough on those students who put in a lot of time at practice and travel to games.

Quote from: Flying Dutch Fan on March 03, 2022, 12:15:48 PM

Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 03, 2022, 11:37:06 AM
I have seen several schools offering a limited number of free student tickets to the tournament games.

Which in the past has always meant the school or some benefactor purchasing said tickets on the students behalf.  I would assume the is happening this year.

WPI paying for tix for all students as well!

Didn't count because it was after the buzzer, but Halpert hit a 3/4 court shot for Yeshiva headed to halftime. Johns Hopkins leads Yeshiva 32-28 in the tournament opener.

The D1 transfer Ethan Lasko keeping the Macs in this game with three three-pointers, but Hop is still up 8 with 9:13 to go.

great comeback and an entertaining finish but that's all she wrote for Yeshiva.

1 for 1 on great endings...excited to see what the remaining 31 games tonight have in store for us.

Johns Hopkins 63
Yeshiva 59

Now on is Oswego State vs Hood from Swarthmore-- watching this on the Centennial Digital Network on Roku.

Just a little over an hour before the UAA teams start first round play-- with Rochester vs Eastern at 4:15 PM Eastern in the first of 4 games involving UAA teams today.

For DIII fans in New England, Williams tipping off at 3:20 PM vs Neumann (at Mount Union), and UMass-Dartmouth playing Emerson with a tip time of 3:35 PM Eastern from Nazareth (That feed is on the Empire 8 channel for those watching on Roku.)

31 men's first round games left, as well as 32 first round games on the women's side today.

It has been a few years, but today is probably the best day of the year for a diehard fan of D3 Hoops.  The teams have started on the roads to Fort Wayne (men) and Pittsburgh (women.)

What a finish going on between Emerson-UMass-Dartmouth. Corsairs were down 8 with just over 2 minutes left, but they have taken a 1 point lead with just 18 seconds remaining.
And UMass-Dartmouth comes back from a 21 point 1st half deficit to advance 86-83.

Another game down to the end... Northwestern had a shot at the buzzer that wouldn't fall and Pomona-Pitzer squeaks out a 67-66 win.

6 finals so far, 3 of them by 4 or fewer points, only 1 game more than 10 points. Great return to tournament action

Wheaton comes back from a late eight-point deficit to edge Hope, 71-69, at Wash U Field House.

UW-LaCrosse wins a back-and-forth contest with Heidelberg, 90-86, in Bloomington, IL.

First OT of the tournament, Case Western Reserve and Dubuque were tied at 81 after 40 minutes.

Every Saturday game involves a Top 25 team except MA Dartmouth at Nazareth.

Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 05, 2022, 05:00:44 AM
Every Saturday game involves a Top 25 team except MA Dartmouth at Nazareth.

Yes and barely, MA Dartmouth is the top team in ORV.

Game of the Day looks like WI-La Crosse #14 @ Il Wesleyan #7.
Johns Hopkins #10 is AT Richard Stockton #23 and #15 Wabash at #12 Emory are other top 25 matchups

My 4 closest match-ups for this round
IWU/LaCrosse
WashU/Wheaton
Platteville/Calvin
Emory/Wabash

Others on twitter might be right to point out Oshkosh/Case Western
High contrast in pace.

What a finish at Kolf Arena in Oshkosh tonight, as Case Western Reserve snatched victory from the jaws of defeat in the waning seconds and upset UW-Oshkosh, 77-74.

With UW-LaCrosse falling at Illinois Wesleyan, and UW-Platteville getting dumped at home by Calvin, the WIAC went 0-3 tonight and is out of the tournament.

Ryan/Dave/Everyone

Might WPI host again next weekend?  Wouldn't it make sense to have Randolph Macon fly or make the almost 8 hour drive, rather than have 3 teams go the other way? 

WIAC goes from 3 teams to 0 in a short span.
CCIW still have all 3 teams
UAA went from 4 to 1

Quote from: WPI89 on March 05, 2022, 10:09:32 PM
Ryan/Dave/Everyone

Might WPI host again next weekend?  Wouldn't it make sense to have Randolph Macon fly or make the almost 8 hour drive, rather than have 3 teams go the other way?

Randolph-Macon will host.  All the teams are within 600 miles of them.  They are the higher seed.

Incidentally, CWRU is the only UAA survivor tonight; the three other members of that conference in this tournament -- Emory, WashU, and Rochester -- all bowed out here in the second round.

Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 05, 2022, 10:12:13 PM
Incidentally, CWRU is the only UAA survivor tonight; the three other members of that conference in this tournament -- Emory, WashU, and Rochester -- all bowed out here in the second round.

And now, the first CWRU basketball team (men or women) to successfully advance to the Sweet 16-- the CWRU women bowed out in the second round in the 2001-02 season in their only NCAA DIII basketball tournament appearance to this date.

Men's hosts are likely: Elmhurst, IWU, RMC, and Marietta.

Women's host are likely: Amherst, Baldwin-Wallace, Transylvania, and Hope.

Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 05, 2022, 10:12:13 PM
Incidentally, CWRU is the only UAA survivor tonight; the three other members of that conference in this tournament -- Emory, WashU, and Rochester -- all bowed out here in the second round.

CWRU could be a top 10 team if only they could play two halves of basketball, or even the last two minutes of the first half.

Spartans were down at the half to Dubuque 46-38 and to UWO 41-27. Also down to Carnegie-Mellon 35-25 at the half in the last regular season game.

I think that I'm going to get to see the Spartans in Belton, Friday night. If, as I suspect UMHB hosts the Sweet 16.

Quote from: ADL70 on March 05, 2022, 10:30:04 PM

Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 05, 2022, 10:12:13 PM
Incidentally, CWRU is the only UAA survivor tonight; the three other members of that conference in this tournament -- Emory, WashU, and Rochester -- all bowed out here in the second round.

CWRU could be a top 10 team if only they could play two halves of basketball, or even the last two minutes of the first half.

Spartans were down at the half to Dubuque 46-38 and to UWO 41-27. Also down to Carnegie-Mellon 35-25 at the half in the last regular season game.

I think that I'm going to get to see the Spartans in Belton, Friday night. If, as I suspect UMHB hosts the Sweet 16.

Elmhurst is 1) still alive, 2) seeded higher than UMHB, and 3) drive-able for two of the three teams who'd have to go there.

Elmhurst will host unless they simply don't want to do it.

Expanding from 500 miles to 600 miles is such a joke. Credit to them for making a more national bracket but it just feels like such a consistent slap in the face to penny pinch for this tournament.

Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 05, 2022, 10:22:22 PM

Men's hosts are likely: Elmhurst, IWU, RMC, and Marietta.

Women's host are likely: Amherst, Baldwin-Wallace, Transylvania, and Hope.

If I worked the mileage chart right, it equals 5 flights on the women's side and is the best case the NCAA has. 

Quote from: Baldini on March 05, 2022, 10:41:45 PM

Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 05, 2022, 10:22:22 PM

Men's hosts are likely: Elmhurst, IWU, RMC, and Marietta.

Women's host are likely: Amherst, Baldwin-Wallace, Transylvania, and Hope.

If I worked the mileage chart right, it equals 5 flights on the women's side and is the best case the NCAA has.

Yep.

Quote from: SpringSt7 on March 05, 2022, 10:40:41 PM
Expanding from 500 miles to 600 miles is such a joke. Credit to them for making a more national bracket but it just feels like such a consistent slap in the face to penny pinch for this tournament.

They did it because teams traveling between 500 and 600 miles weren't actually flying anyway; they almost always choose to bus.

Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 05, 2022, 10:22:22 PM

Men's hosts are likely: Elmhurst, IWU, RMC, and Marietta.

Women's host are likely: Amherst, Baldwin-Wallace, Transylvania, and Hope.

You don't think Newport will host that upper left pod??  They'd have to fly Trinity anyways, so I don't see why Newport wouldn't host it otherwise unless they'd have to fly Tufts in too.  Newport has the better record, and probably the higher seed in that half of the bracket.   

Unranked CWRU over #3 ranked and defending national champ Wisc-Oshkosh has got to be the D3 upset of the season.

GO SPARTANS!!!

Quote from: 7express on March 05, 2022, 11:25:01 PM

Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 05, 2022, 10:22:22 PM

Men's hosts are likely: Elmhurst, IWU, RMC, and Marietta.

Women's host are likely: Amherst, Baldwin-Wallace, Transylvania, and Hope.

You don't think Newport will host that upper left pod??  They'd have to fly Trinity anyways, so I don't see why Newport wouldn't host it otherwise unless they'd have to fly Tufts in too.  Newport has the better record, and probably the higher seed in that half of the bracket.

That's the reason. Amherst to Newport is 565 but Tufts to Newport is 619. Amherst hosting is 1 flight, CNU hosting is 2 flights

I know they're typos, but the bottom right portion of the bracket (https://www.d3hoops.com/playoffs/men/2022/bracket) is quite interesting...
PS-Harrisburg advanced to round 2 after a 53-53 tie over St Joseph (they won 63-53)
RPI will face themselves in the Sweet 16 (should be RPI vs WPI) :D

Quote from: DagarmanSpartan on March 05, 2022, 11:48:47 PM
Unranked CWRU over #3 ranked and defending national champ Wisc-Oshkosh has got to be the D3 upset of the season.

GO SPARTANS!!!

Plus, according to the updated bracket on the NCAA site, Case gets to host Sectionals next weekend.

Quote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on March 05, 2022, 11:56:19 PM

Quote from: 7express on March 05, 2022, 11:25:01 PM

Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 05, 2022, 10:22:22 PM

Men's hosts are likely: Elmhurst, IWU, RMC, and Marietta.

Women's host are likely: Amherst, Baldwin-Wallace, Transylvania, and Hope.

You don't think Newport will host that upper left pod??  They'd have to fly Trinity anyways, so I don't see why Newport wouldn't host it otherwise unless they'd have to fly Tufts in too.  Newport has the better record, and probably the higher seed in that half of the bracket.

That's the reason. Amherst to Newport is 565 but Tufts to Newport is 619. Amherst hosting is 1 flight, CNU hosting is 2 flights

Woof!  Talk about getting screwed!  The #1 team in the country can't host either the first weekend, because the men's team gets hosting priority and can't host the second weekend either because of the bean counters at corporate.  And not only that, they are probably playing at the 2nd best team to boot.  Johns Hopkins was definitely the 2nd seed in that mini pod, and Amherst is probably the 2nd best team out of those 4.  NCAA needs to do something.  If you are a top 4 overall seed (which Newport definitely is), you should be able to host at least one of the two weekends, either flights be damned, or a school like Whitewater or Newport that could host both men's and women's games at the same time either do that, but Newport should DEFINITELY be hosting at least 1 weekend!

Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 06, 2022, 12:31:31 AM

Quote from: DagarmanSpartan on March 05, 2022, 11:48:47 PM
Unranked CWRU over #3 ranked and defending national champ Wisc-Oshkosh has got to be the D3 upset of the season.

GO SPARTANS!!!

Plus, according to the updated bracket on the NCAA site, Case gets to host Sectionals next weekend.

That strikes me as pretty surprising.  Would the committee really have had CWRU (#5RR, region 7) seeded higher than Elmhurst (#3RR, region 8) in that bracket?  EC higher win pct.  CWRU slightly higher SOS.  UMHB is flying no matter what.

Or perhaps there's an event at EC where they're not able to host the 2nd weekend?

Quote from: DagarmanSpartan on March 05, 2022, 11:48:47 PM
Unranked CWRU over #3 ranked and defending national champ Wisc-Oshkosh has got to be the D3 upset of the season.

GO SPARTANS!!!

Stevens over Mount Union in the 1st round is a huge upset as well, I would think.

Looking at the tea leaves, If seeds are honored:

Upper Left
Elmhurst Hosts, Mary Hardin Baylor flies

Lower Left
IWU Hosts, Williams flies

Upper Right
Marietta hosts, others can bus [all 400-500 mile bus rides]

Lower Right
Randolph Macon Hosts, others can bus [all ~500 mile bus rides]

Be interesting to see the end result

Quote from: GoPerry on March 06, 2022, 06:37:16 AM

Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 06, 2022, 12:31:31 AM

Quote from: DagarmanSpartan on March 05, 2022, 11:48:47 PM
Unranked CWRU over #3 ranked and defending national champ Wisc-Oshkosh has got to be the D3 upset of the season.

GO SPARTANS!!!

Plus, according to the updated bracket on the NCAA site, Case gets to host Sectionals next weekend.

That strikes me as pretty surprising.  Would the committee really have had CWRU (#5RR, region 7) seeded higher than Elmhurst (#3RR, region 8) in that bracket?  EC higher win pct.  CWRU slightly higher SOS.  UMHB is flying no matter what.

Or perhaps there's an event at EC where they're not able to host the 2nd weekend?

I'm not sure how timing works for hosting, but it could be an instance where you don't think the likelihood is high enough to bother with the paperwork? Case was ready and they got it, I guess.

Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 06, 2022, 07:13:14 AM

Quote from: DagarmanSpartan on March 05, 2022, 11:48:47 PM
Unranked CWRU over #3 ranked and defending national champ Wisc-Oshkosh has got to be the D3 upset of the season.

GO SPARTANS!!!

Stevens over Mount Union in the 1st round is a huge upset as well, I would think.

Watching the game in person I will tell you that I didn't see the Stevens win over Mount Union as as much of an upset as may be perceived. You had a team in Stevens that led the nation in field goal % defense, is also an outstanding rebounding team, was on an eight game winning streak, and quite honestly just matched up well with Mount Union.  Most folks talked so much about a Mount Union / Williams match up in round two, and there was really no pressure on Stevens. Obviously the Stevens coaches and players embraced this.  Stevens had a tremendous shooting night from Matt LaCorte, but also had five players in double figures (as they have done all season).  Mount Union had a player in Newsome who was as hot (or hotter) than LaCorte, and Stevens adjusted their defense and locked him down.  Mount Union did not make the necessary adjustments.  So for me, don't call it a huge upset. 

Speaking of the Mount Union pod, really disappointed in the literally zero coverage from D3 hoops on this pod. You had Mount Union coach on your podcast Thursday, asked him all about Williams, Sweet 16, etc. (credit to him that he really didn't want to go there), then nothing.  Tremendous game with Stevens knocking off Mount Union on Friday, and then an even better game with Williams prevailing in an absolute battle with Stevens last night.  Tremendous basketball played over two days by Williams and Stevens, should have been a little credit and coverage given to these teams. 

So far, on the men's side IWU site is showing they are hosting a Sectional. 

Marietta is showing they are hosting Oswego, so one can assume they are the Sectional host.

Calvin site is showing at Elmhurst, which is the nominal top seed in that bracket.

Randolph Macon site and WPI site are showing TBA.

I don't think either of us are wrong. I look at it as Stevens needed to win the AQ just to get in. CWR got a Pool C and are battle tested playing in a Top 3-5 league, which the MACF is not. Not sure what Massey had, but I'm guessing Mount Union was favored by more in their 1st round game vs Stevens than Oshkosh over CWR in their 2nd rounder.

I guess they've messed things up on the website before, but generally when the sites show up on the bracket on ncaa.com it's a done deal. Pro Tip: always click on the printable bracket, it gives more info. It had first round game times well before they were announced.

Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 06, 2022, 09:16:36 AM
I don't think either of us are wrong. I look at it as Stevens needed to win the AQ just to get in. CWR got a Pool C and are battle tested playing in a Top 3-5 league, which the MACF is not. Not sure what Massey had, but I'm guessing Mount Union was favored by more in their 1st round game vs Stevens than Oshkosh over CWR in their 2nd rounder.

Massey had Mount over Stevens by 17 if I remember correctly. With that being said this has been a tough year for Massey, with even less cross region matchups than usual thanks to Omicron.

Will they be announcing the official hosts today?

Quote from: WPI89 on March 06, 2022, 12:51:30 PM
Will they be announcing the official hosts today?

Hosts have already been officially made public (maybe not "announced").

https://www.ncaa.com/brackets/print/basketball-men/d3/2022

Quote from: WPI89 on March 06, 2022, 12:51:30 PM
Will they be announcing the official hosts today?

I believe that they did reveal the official hosts last night in the updated men's printed bracket on ncaa.com, with the game times.

According to the updated printed bracket on ncaa.com last night, WPI is playing Rensselaer at 4:30 PM Eastern on Friday, March 11 at Randolph-Macon in the first game of that sectional.  The second game of the sectional is Randolph-Macon vs UMass-Dartmouth at 7:30 PM Eastern, and the winners play on March 12 at 7:30 PM for a spot in Fort Wayne.

Randolph-Macon, Marietta, Illinois Wesleyan, and Case Western Reserve are hosting sectionals March 11 and 12 for the men.

Got it. Thanks all!

Wow. CWR over Elmhurst?

It sounds like Elmhurst was not available to host this weekend -- whether that's because Faganel Hall was already booked for another event or perhaps staffing issues with school being on break, not sure.

Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 06, 2022, 05:44:53 PM
It sounds like Elmhurst was not available to host this weekend -- whether that's because Faganel Hall was already booked for another event or perhaps staffing issues with school being on break, not sure.

That would make a whole lot more sense.  Unfortunate for the team having to go on the road however.

Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 06, 2022, 05:44:53 PM
It sounds like Elmhurst was not available to host this weekend -- whether that's because Faganel Hall was already booked for another event or perhaps staffing issues with school being on break, not sure.

I'm pretty sure it's the latter. There aren't any sporting events scheduled for Faganel next weekend -- but next Saturday the Bluejays will be hosting a softball doubleheader on their (off-campus) home field while simultaneously hosting a men's lacrosse game at Langhorst Field.

FWIW - I plugged in Ken Massey's analytics to the Third Round Bracket [Massey rank in Parens]:

Case Western Reserve Sectional
(22) Case Western Reserve 87 - (29) Mary Hardin-Baylor 82
(12) Elmhurst 77 - (23) Calvin 74

Illinois Wesleyan Sectional
(18) Williams 79 – (20) Wabash 78 – Closest game
(6) IWU 73 – (16) Wheaton 69

Marietta Sectional
(2) Marietta 78 – (14) Oswego 71 – Smallest combined ranking
(4) Chris. Newport 78 – (28) Stockton 73

Randolph Macon Sectional
(1) Randolph-Macon 78 – (26) UMass- Dartmouth 67
(9) Worcester Tech 62 – (44) Rensselaer 57

8 of 16 R1 & R2 "pod" hosts still alive.

Wabash is 18th in Massey and Williams is 20th, yet Williams is favored by 3. Am I missing something?

Quote from: SpringSt7 on March 07, 2022, 09:26:18 PM
Wabash is 18th in Massey and Williams is 20th, yet Williams is favored by 3. Am I missing something?

I wouldn't read to much into massey picking!

I like having Massey in an analytics limited D3 world but I certainly don't swear by it. Just wondering how the higher ranked team can be underdogs on a neutral site. Seems like it throws the whole thing into question, unless there is some sort of style of play matchup behind the scenes that we don't see.

Quote from: SpringSt7 on March 07, 2022, 09:26:18 PM
Wabash is 18th in Massey and Williams is 20th, yet Williams is favored by 3. Am I missing something?

Quote from: thebear on March 07, 2022, 04:48:19 PM
FWIW - I plugged in Ken Massey's analytics to the Third Round Bracket [Massey rank in Parens]:

Case Western Reserve Sectional
(22) Case Western Reserve 87 - (29) Mary Hardin-Baylor 82
(12) Elmhurst 77 - (23) Calvin 74

Illinois Wesleyan Sectional
(18) Williams 79 – (20) Wabash 78 – Closest game
(6) IWU 73 – (16) Wheaton 69

Marietta Sectional
(2) Marietta 78 – (14) Oswego 71 – Smallest combined ranking
(4) Chris. Newport 78 – (28) Stockton 73

Randolph Macon Sectional
(1) Randolph-Macon 78 – (26) UMass- Dartmouth 67
(9) Worcester Tech 62 – (44) Rensselaer 57

Not sure where the above numbers came from but as of right now Massey is showing the following predictions;

CWR 84, MHB 85
Elmhurst 78, Calvin 73
Williams 80, Wabash 77
Wheaton 71, IWU 69
Marietta 75, Oswego 73
Chris. Newport 77, Stockton 74
Randolph Macon 75, MA-Dartmouth 69
Worcester Tech 63, Rensselaer 55

As SpringSt7 questioned above, it doesn't make a lot of sense for Massey's 20th ranked team to be favored over his 18th ranked team (or #16 to be picked over #6). System malfunction somewhere along the way?

Quote from: SpringSt7 on March 07, 2022, 10:27:12 PM
I like having Massey in an analytics limited D3 world but I certainly don't swear by it. Just wondering how the higher ranked team can be underdogs on a neutral site. Seems like it throws the whole thing into question, unless there is some sort of style of play matchup behind the scenes that we don't see.

Or a home team only win by 1 !Scranton women 51% Babson 49% and it was 12 the lady Royals had control of that game for 39 minutes

Possible solution to the above problem..............

One of the Massey fields is HFA or home field (court) advantage. Has his system factored in these figures in favor of the team designated as the "home" even though they may be ranked lower than their next opponent and several games are at neutral sites rather than home courts for the teams involved?

Give you another example Scranton women beat Desales ladies early in the year match them two teams up and Scranton loses to Desales.The game is played on the court not by Massey and it is wrong alot.Another example couple years ago Scranton men had to travel to Middlebury everyone had Scranton buried guess what Scranton won but next night Cabrini crushed us.So take it with a grain of salt!Like I said game is played on the court just like N.C and Duke(heavily favored) but got punched in the mouth.

Quote from: Next Man Up on March 07, 2022, 10:49:51 PM
Possible solution to the above problem..............

One of the Massey fields is HFA or home field (court) advantage. Has his system factored in these figures in favor of the team designated as the "home" even though they may be ranked lower than their next opponent and several games are at neutral sites rather than home courts for the teams involved?

That sounds like it's probable. Good catch.

Quote from: Augie2020 on March 07, 2022, 10:57:30 PM
Give you another example Scranton women beat Desales ladies early in the year match them two teams up and Scranton loses to Desales.The game is played on the court not by Massey and it is wrong alot.Another example couple years ago Scranton men had to travel to Middlebury everyone had Scranton buried guess what Scranton won but next night Cabrini crushed us.So take it with a grain of salt!Like I said game is played on the court just like N.C and Duke(heavily favored) but got punched in the mouth.

Not saying the computer is supposed to get the picks 100% correct. That would be absurd. Just pointing out a direct flaw in the projections. HFA designation makes a lot of sense, so thank you Next Man Up for pointing that out.

Quote from: Next Man Up on March 07, 2022, 10:38:33 PM

Quote from: SpringSt7 on March 07, 2022, 09:26:18 PM
Wabash is 18th in Massey and Williams is 20th, yet Williams is favored by 3. Am I missing something?

Quote from: thebear on March 07, 2022, 04:48:19 PM
FWIW - I plugged in Ken Massey's analytics to the Third Round Bracket [Massey rank in Parens]:

Case Western Reserve Sectional
(22) Case Western Reserve 87 - (29) Mary Hardin-Baylor 82
(12) Elmhurst 77 - (23) Calvin 74

Illinois Wesleyan Sectional
(18) Williams 79 – (20) Wabash 78 – Closest game
(6) IWU 73 – (16) Wheaton 69

Marietta Sectional
(2) Marietta 78 – (14) Oswego 71 – Smallest combined ranking
(4) Chris. Newport 78 – (28) Stockton 73

Randolph Macon Sectional
(1) Randolph-Macon 78 – (26) UMass- Dartmouth 67
(9) Worcester Tech 62 – (44) Rensselaer 57

Not sure where the above numbers came from but as of right now Massey is showing the following predictions;

CWR 84, MHB 85
Elmhurst 78, Calvin 73
Williams 80, Wabash 77
Wheaton 71, IWU 69
Marietta 75, Oswego 73
Chris. Newport 77, Stockton 74
Randolph Macon 75, MA-Dartmouth 69
Worcester Tech 63, Rensselaer 55

As SpringSt7 questioned above, it doesn't make a lot of sense for Massey's 20th ranked team to be favored over his 18th ranked team (or #16 to be picked over #6). System malfunction somewhere along the way?

If you check the games (https://masseyratings.com/cb2022/11620/games) as you have done, it has taken the teams and put the first team as road and 2nd team as home and none of them are correct. If you manually do the matchups (https://masseyratings.com/game.php?s=cb2022&sub=11620) as bear did you can select a neutral court/correct home team.

Two teams that are 2 places apart in the rankings are going to be quite close in terms of predictions.

Looking at some of the other data for the two
Rat: Rating overall strength
Pwr: Power rating
Off: Offensive power to score
Def: Defensive power to prevent opponent from scoring

Wabash
Rat: 18, Pwr: 26, Off: 5, Def 269
Williams
Rat: 20, Pwr: 25, Off: 117, Def 14

I'm guessing the computer likes Williams ok O vs Wabash bad D to score more than Wabash great O vs Williams great D

I checked Wabash vs WashU (the team between them in 19th). Wash U has worse off than Williams but better def and Massey has WashU as a 57% favorite. I think the key is not just raw rankings but the matchups. Wabash has by far the worst def according to Massey of anyone in the top 40.

Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 07, 2022, 11:03:02 PM

Quote from: Next Man Up on March 07, 2022, 10:49:51 PM
Possible solution to the above problem..............

One of the Massey fields is HFA or home field (court) advantage. Has his system factored in these figures in favor of the team designated as the "home" even though they may be ranked lower than their next opponent and several games are at neutral sites rather than home courts for the teams involved?

That sounds like it's probable. Good catch.

Thank you. All we can do is try.

Quote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on March 07, 2022, 11:28:57 PM

Quote from: Next Man Up on March 07, 2022, 10:38:33 PM

Quote from: SpringSt7 on March 07, 2022, 09:26:18 PM
Wabash is 18th in Massey and Williams is 20th, yet Williams is favored by 3. Am I missing something?

Quote from: thebear on March 07, 2022, 04:48:19 PM
FWIW - I plugged in Ken Massey's analytics to the Third Round Bracket [Massey rank in Parens]:

Case Western Reserve Sectional
(22) Case Western Reserve 87 - (29) Mary Hardin-Baylor 82
(12) Elmhurst 77 - (23) Calvin 74

Illinois Wesleyan Sectional
(18) Williams 79 – (20) Wabash 78 – Closest game
(6) IWU 73 – (16) Wheaton 69

Marietta Sectional
(2) Marietta 78 – (14) Oswego 71 – Smallest combined ranking
(4) Chris. Newport 78 – (28) Stockton 73

Randolph Macon Sectional
(1) Randolph-Macon 78 – (26) UMass- Dartmouth 67
(9) Worcester Tech 62 – (44) Rensselaer 57

Not sure where the above numbers came from but as of right now Massey is showing the following predictions;

CWR 84, MHB 85
Elmhurst 78, Calvin 73
Williams 80, Wabash 77
Wheaton 71, IWU 69
Marietta 75, Oswego 73
Chris. Newport 77, Stockton 74
Randolph Macon 75, MA-Dartmouth 69
Worcester Tech 63, Rensselaer 55

As SpringSt7 questioned above, it doesn't make a lot of sense for Massey's 20th ranked team to be favored over his 18th ranked team (or #16 to be picked over #6). System malfunction somewhere along the way?

If you check the games (https://masseyratings.com/cb2022/11620/games) as you have done, it has taken the teams and put the first team as road and 2nd team as home and none of them are correct. If you manually do the matchups (https://masseyratings.com/game.php?s=cb2022&sub=11620) as bear did you can select a neutral court/correct home team.

I want to make it clear that I wasn't criticizing Bear. Just reporting that the numbers I saw at the time I looked were different than those he posted. I thought what had probably happened was Massey had run another set of updated figures since Bear posted. I now see what he did. He did good work. 

Quote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on March 07, 2022, 11:40:36 PM
Two teams that are 2 places apart in the rankings are going to be quite close in terms of predictions.

Looking at some of the other data for the two
Rat: Rating overall strength
Pwr: Power rating
Off: Offensive power to score
Def: Defensive power to prevent opponent from scoring

Wabash
Rat: 18, Pwr: 26, Off: 5, Def 269
Williams
Rat: 20, Pwr: 25, Off: 117, Def 14

I'm guessing the computer likes Williams ok O vs Wabash bad D to score more than Wabash great O vs Williams great D

I checked Wabash vs WashU (the team between them in 19th). Wash U has worse off than Williams but better def and Massey has WashU as a 57% favorite. I think the key is not just raw rankings but the matchups. Wabash has by far the worst def according to Massey of anyone in the top 40.

Yep, all of this makes sense. And no matter what sport you're talking about we all know how important your last sentence regarding defense is. Good defense so often proves to be the primary reason a team emerges with the W.

Being retired, and on [temporary] medical limited duty, I have plenty of time to do this here in my home office/man cave. 

Yes I went through game by game, and did the host/visitor/neutral matchup that Ken Massey's site provides.

Right side of the bracket still has the #1 (R-M), 2 (Marietta), and 4 (CNU) teams alive.  Left side is led by IWU at #6.

Story on CWRU https://www.cleveland.com/sports/2022/03/case-westerns-amazing-run-memory-of-a-deceased-father-and-a-local-kid-delivers-terry-pluto.html

1st weekend hosts were just 8-8 getting out of the 1st weekend.

Mount Union and Swarthmore didn't even win 1st round games as hosts, but Stevens (topped Mount Union) and Keene St (beat Swarthmore) both lost in the 2nd round.

How good are the Power Conferences?

The CCIW had 3 teams (2 hosts) in the tournament and all 3 advanced. The WIAC also had 3 teams and 2 hosts and NONE advanced to the 2nd weekend.  The NEWMAC had 3 teams in and only host WPI returns for the 2nd weekend. The OAC had 3 (2 hosts) and only Marietta plays the 2nd weekend. The UAA had FOUR teams (2 hosts) make the tournament, but only CWR moved onto the 2nd weekend.

Multiple Pool C teams from conferences

WIAC
Platteville (host): 1-1
La Crosse: 1-1

CCIW
IWU (host): 2-0
Wheaton: 2-0

NEWMAC
Emerson: 0-1
Babson: 1-1

OAC
Mount Union: 0-1
Heidelberg: 0-1

UAA
CWR: 2-0
Rochester: 1-1
Wash U (host): 1-1

2 near upsets. WPI escapes with a 56-55 win and Elmhurst holds off Calvin 79-77. CNU smokes Stockton 93-54.

What a great round of games today for berths to the final four. Starting with a massive tilt between #2 and #4 in a rematch!!  :o

Marietta tops CNU after being down double digits in the 1st half. RMC has an easy game. Elmhurst gets by UMHB in OT and Wabash upsets IWU to finish out the Final Four.

I saw three of these four teams in person at the Great Lakes Invitational in November.  I'm happy to see them again at the end of the season.

A pretty nice run for the CNU seniors. Even dealing with COVID, their careers included a Sweet 16 (COVID stopped that season), a final 4 and an Elite 8. a crazy time indeed!

Quote from: CNU85 on March 14, 2022, 09:57:42 AM
A pretty nice run for the CNU seniors. Even dealing with COVID, their careers included a Sweet 16 (COVID stopped that season), a final 4 and an Elite 8. a crazy time indeed!

Tough end for CNU. 3 losses and 2 of them to Marietta by a combined 5 points. Are all the seniors listed as seniors graduating? Any coming back for another year?

Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 14, 2022, 02:51:11 PM

Quote from: CNU85 on March 14, 2022, 09:57:42 AM
A pretty nice run for the CNU seniors. Even dealing with COVID, their careers included a Sweet 16 (COVID stopped that season), a final 4 and an Elite 8. a crazy time indeed!

Tough end for CNU. 3 losses and 2 of them to Marietta by a combined 5 points. Are all the seniors listed as seniors graduating? Any coming back for another year?

Aigner and Beasley were 5th year players.
Peterson (love his game!) was a D2 transfer. I think he is done.
Brodie was a D1 transfer pre-Covid. Not sure about his status. He may be done. I guess it depends where he is academically.
Trimble  - not sure about his status

A friend of mine used to coach at JMU.

Brodie played there in 18-19 under the name Matthew Urbach.

He has only used 3 seasons of eligibility - 18-19, 19-20, and 21-22.

CNU played some exhibitions in 2020-21, but they are labelled as such.

well, if you have to be in FW here are a few local places to eat. This is building off a post I made a few years ago.

within reasonable distance of the Coliseum:

Wu's - nicer local chinese restaurant with very good back menu.
Shigs in Pit - BBQ place about 5-10 minutes away.  Owned by a local microbrewery so they have their own beer on tap. reasonably priced.
Cork and Clever - steakhouse close to the coliseum with a good salad bar
Casa's - local italian chain across the street from the coliseum. nothing spectacular but good food and reasonably priced.
Baker Street- nicer restaurant with steaks and seafood close to the coliseum.
Burger Fi - Good burger place that also serves beer. reasonably price.
cebollas - mexican, fast service, reasonably price, close to the arena, my favorite salsa
liberty diner - my favorite breakfast place.  on the west side of coliseum blvd.



Dupont Rd area north of coliseum:
Black Canyon - nicer restaurant with quality food.
lucky moose - pub feel with a good variety. reasonably priced.
wings etc. - a little farther north on dupont rd, reasonably price with good wings and a full bar style menu
Ted's Beerhall – 30 microbrews on tap. Food. There is a "beercade" in the basement.
Nori – Asian Fusion/Sushi – I am not as sushi person so I have not eaten here but it gets very high review from people I talk to.
cebollas - mexican, fast service, reasonably price, close to the arena, my favorite salsa

Southwest FW:
Catablu - one of my favorites in town. nicer restaurant. they also usually have good items for special diets.
Eddie Merlot's - higher end steak house.  this is a chain but it is the original.
Chops – steakhouse with a wine bar
Umi Grill – higher end Japanese restaurant

donuts:
tom's donuts - south of the coliseum
rise and roll - north of the coliseum on dupont rd.  amish made donuts.  they are a little sweet for me but very popular.
Leo Donuts - Northeast of end of dupont rd almost out of town.

Unfortunately I will be out of town as my son has a U14 soccer tournament. :(

Quote from: CNU85 on March 14, 2022, 09:57:42 AM
A pretty nice run for the CNU seniors. Even dealing with COVID, their careers included a Sweet 16 (COVID stopped that season), a final 4 and an Elite 8. a crazy time indeed!

Come on, CNU85, it was better than that...comparatively, how many college basketball players can say they got to the Sweet 16, much less an Elite 8 and Final 4?

Quote from: Swish3 on March 17, 2022, 04:08:44 PM

Quote from: CNU85 on March 14, 2022, 09:57:42 AM
A pretty nice run for the CNU seniors. Even dealing with COVID, their careers included a Sweet 16 (COVID stopped that season), a final 4 and an Elite 8. a crazy time indeed!

Come on, CNU85, it was better than that...comparatively, how many college basketball players can say they got to the Sweet 16, much less an Elite 8 and Final 4?

I don't know, if you're talking CNU, the answer is pretty much all of them.  Don't they have like eight straight classes of players who've been to a Final Four?  It's a very impressive run.  This CNU was playing their best basketball in March - they just ran into a team playing just a wee bit better.

That reminds me---this Williams basketball class of 2022 is the first not to go to a Final Four since the Class of 2009. The classes of '08, '09, and now '22 are the only classes to graduate without a Final Four appearance since the NESCAC approved postseason participation.

Does anyone know if tomorrow's semifinal games can be streamed on a TV via Roku? All I can find that the NCAA is offering live via Roku is the Division 1 tournament.

Quote from: y_jack_lok on March 17, 2022, 06:11:08 PM
Does anyone know if tomorrow's semifinal games can be streamed on a TV via Roku? All I can find that the NCAA is offering live via Roku is the Division 1 tournament.

You should check NCAA.com as they are broadcasting the games from Division II and Division III as well.

As far as I know, ncaa.com isn't available through any app.

I don't know much about Roku but I did find this.

https://channelstore.roku.com/details/26ae3461a23ed2e16dea077ba1bd1129/ncaa-march-madness-live

I thought Roku had internet browsers.

If you go to the browser and go to NCAA.com, it should be accessible there, even if it is clunky to get to.

Thanks for the responses. I was hoping there was a way I could watch today's games on a TV screen rather than a smaller computer screen. The NCAA D1 tournament games are definitely available via Roku, because I have been watching some that way. I'm also watching the games broadcast over the air by CBS. I don't subscribe to any cable or satellite service.

I'll just fire up the computer this afternoon and watch the games there, just as I have all season long.

Take a second look though because those games are being broadcast at NCAA.com.  It seems weird that they would not also be on Roku.

Just for fun, I entered a Div 1 bracket based on the results of the D3.  I flipped the right and left side from the way the brackets are printed.  (I wanted Gonzaga into the final four, so I matched them up with Marieta's bracket).  I know, I know... seedings in D1 doesn't match with the way D3 bracket is constructed.  But I did it anyway, matching each team with where they lie when printed, except that I flipped the sides.

The bracket is doing okay.  It's got 13 of the first 16 games right.  I think it is interesting that it correctly predicted:

• Saint Peters over Kentucky based on Penn State-Harrisburg over St. Joseph's Conn
• New Mexico St over UConn based on Keene St over Swathmore
• Richmond over Iowa based on Stevens over Mt Union

The ones it got wrong were:

• Michigan over Colorado State.  D3 picked CSU based on UW-Platteville beating Marian
• Tennessee over Longwood.  D3 predicted Longwood based on Calvin beating St. Johns
• Creighton over San Diego St.  D3 predicted SDSU based on Wabash over Berry

That last one is going to be the killer.  SDSU ain't gonna make it to the final four like Wabash has.

Quote from: WUPHF on March 18, 2022, 10:12:49 AM
Take a second look though because those games are being broadcast at NCAA.com.  It seems weird that they would not also be on Roku.

I've looked at everything that comes up when I search NCAA on Roku. No indication that anything D3 is available. But I'll try again today in case it is something that only shows up on game day.

Thanks for the help.

Quote from: y_jack_lok on March 18, 2022, 12:07:07 PM

Quote from: WUPHF on March 18, 2022, 10:12:49 AM
Take a second look though because those games are being broadcast at NCAA.com.  It seems weird that they would not also be on Roku.

I've looked at everything that comes up when I search NCAA on Roku. No indication that anything D3 is available. But I'll try again today in case it is something that only shows up on game day.

Thanks for the help.

I can tell you that for the women's games last night - streaming directly on Roku was not an option.  I streamed the game on my phone and used AirPlay to "cast" it to my Roku /TV. 

Randolph-Macon is the best team in D3, and I don't really think that there's an argument to the contrary. But the best team doesn't always win, and if there's any team that has a puncher's chance to pull off the upset, it's Elmhurst.

I can only presume Schreiber got hurt. 11 minutes? I don't know if he would've made a difference, but seems like it didn't help Wabash.

Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 18, 2022, 11:25:58 PM
I can only presume Schreiber got hurt. 11 minutes? I don't know if he would've made a difference, but seems like it didn't help Wabash.

I take it you didn't watch the game, Tom. Schreiber got ejected for committing a Flagrant 2 foul with four and a half minutes to go in the first half.

Thanks. I saw the back and forth Tweeter. I was at a concert with the wifey. Otherwise, I probably would've been in Salem Fort Wayne.

Both Men's and Women's D-III games are being Broadcast on CBS Sports Network. 

On my Provider [Spectrum] that's up in the 300's with other sports channels like NFL Network etc. 

They are both showing on my schedule for today.

Randolph-Macon are the 2021-22 Men's D3 Basketball champions after a 75-45 win over Elmhurst

Biggest margin of victory in any D3 title game ever.

Total domination by what is emphatically the best team in D3.

As a neutral fan, kind of an anticlimactic, boring Final Four. An 18 point game, a 22 point game and a 30 point Final. Congratulations to everyone that made it there, though.

Yeah, it kinda was. I had bigger expectations for it, but the games were too one-sided.

 Surprised to hear that the CCIW(1 of the 4 power conferences) hadn't had a title game participant since 1997.

Quote from: ronk on March 20, 2022, 10:57:48 AM
Surprised to hear that the CCIW(1 of the 4 power conferences) hadn't had a title game participant since 1997.

What are the 4 power conferences?

 CCIW, WIAC, NESCAC, and ?

Quote from: ronk on March 20, 2022, 11:33:47 AM
CCIW, WIAC, NESCAC, and ?

UAA is usually the fourth, although the ODAC and OAC are pretty close.

Quote from: ronk on March 20, 2022, 10:57:48 AM
Surprised to hear that the CCIW(1 of the 4 power conferences) hadn't had a title game participant since 1997.

CCIW hasn't *won* since 1997.  It has had c-game participants in three of the most recent six tournaments, and five different schools reach the final four in the most recent eight tournaments.

Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 20, 2022, 11:43:01 AM

Quote from: ronk on March 20, 2022, 11:33:47 AM
CCIW, WIAC, NESCAC, and ?

UAA is usually the fourth, although the ODAC and OAC are pretty close.

The final conference rankings on Massey.

1.) WIAC
2.) UAA
3.) CCIW
4.) ODAC
5.) OAC
6.) NESCAC

Quote from: Baldini on March 20, 2022, 03:14:38 PM

Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 20, 2022, 11:43:01 AM

Quote from: ronk on March 20, 2022, 11:33:47 AM
CCIW, WIAC, NESCAC, and ?

UAA is usually the fourth, although the ODAC and OAC are pretty close.

The final conference rankings on Massey.

1.) WIAC
2.) UAA
3.) CCIW
4.) ODAC
5.) OAC
6.) NESCAC

If you want to call me ignorant, that's fine, but I have a difficult time understanding how the conference getting three teams in the national championship, one of which made the Sweet 16, one the Elite 8, and one the national championship game, can be ranked third rather than first. Plus, the fourth place team in the conference defeated the #1 team in the conference tournament, and came within one game of having four teams from the conference make the Big Dance. Did the conferences listed as #1 and #2 really do better this season?  ???

I don't know. Maybe the Massey rankings were before the NCAA tournament? Maybe they are based on non-conference records? Strength of schedule? Remember, the conference ranking isn't just based on  what IWU, Elmhurst and Wheaton did.

Quote from: Next Man Up on March 20, 2022, 07:07:55 PM

Quote from: Baldini on March 20, 2022, 03:14:38 PM

Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 20, 2022, 11:43:01 AM

Quote from: ronk on March 20, 2022, 11:33:47 AM
CCIW, WIAC, NESCAC, and ?

UAA is usually the fourth, although the ODAC and OAC are pretty close.

The final conference rankings on Massey.

1.) WIAC
2.) UAA
3.) CCIW
4.) ODAC
5.) OAC
6.) NESCAC

If you want to call me ignorant, that's fine, but I have a difficult time understanding how the conference getting three teams in the national championship, one of which made the Sweet 16, one the Elite 8, and one the national championship game, can be ranked third rather than first. Plus, the fourth place team in the conference defeated the #1 team in the conference tournament, and came within one game of having four teams from the conference make the Big Dance. Did the conferences listed as #1 and #2 really do better this season?  ???

Conference rankings are (and should be) done top-to-bottom, not just how good the top is.  I haven't followed things as closely this year as I used to, but suspect the bottom of the CCIW may have been worse than the bottom of the WIAC and UAA.  And while the top of the NESCAC is often top 2-3, the bottom can be downright dreadful (by 'power conference' standards).

Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 20, 2022, 08:20:34 PM
Conference rankings are (and should be) done top-to-bottom, not just how good the top is.  I haven't followed things as closely this year as I used to, but suspect the bottom of the CCIW may have been worse than the bottom of the WIAC and UAA. 

This UAA was the best top to bottom that I can ever remember.

It is hard to imagine that many conferences have finished with 4 teams in the Top 25 and only one team outside the Top 100.  In this case, NYU finished just outside at No. 102.

The CCIW by contrast finished with three teams in the Top 25 and three teams outside the Top 100.

But yeah, if you rank a conference by the top teams are how far they go in the tournament as expressed elsewhere, then Massey is definitely not for you.

Looking at the Massey data today it's pretty evident that their conference rankings do indeed cover the postseason.

As others have pointed out the entire conference comes into play, top to bottom, so while the elite members of the conference get the attention the "ball don't lie" as they say.  It's not unusual for some conference members to act as boat anchors, counteracting the work done at the top.

So, the total OOC records, including postseason were:

WIAC 67-20 .770
UAA   73-23 .760
CCIW 63-28 .692
ODAC 57-50 .533

though this is just one metric used in the Massey rankings.

The WIAC had just one team (Stevens Point) that was underwater OOC at 3-4.  The UAA also had just one in Chicago at 5-6.  The CCIW had 2 (N. Central and Carroll).
The WIAC jumps off the page at 67-17 excluding the postseason.  Of course not all OOC opponents are created equal, but across the board the Massey metrics for the WIAC are #1 with just one exception (Off).  Clearly the WIAC was #1 as a whole.

While the CCIW had a very strong season, including 10 tournament games overall, those 10 games were not enough (to Massey) to "carry" the weight of the other 81 OOC games.
And looking at the Massey metrics across the board it appears (to them) that the CCIW was closer to the ODAC @ #4 (#2 SOS for example) than the UAA @ #2 for the year.

Of course we aren't privy to the secret sauce behind all the Massey numbers.  How much weight does/should a Final Four game carry relative to playing the same team in an earlier round for example?  Those are beer debate questions and thankfully can be argued many ways ... lest we have fewer excuses for those beers.

Quote from: BaboNation on March 21, 2022, 10:18:34 AM
The WIAC had just one team (Stevens Point) that was underwater OOC at 3-4.  The UAA also had just one in Chicago at 5-6.  The CCIW had 2 (N. Central and Carroll).

I don't disagree with your broader point, but North Central was not underwater in non-conference play.  The Cardinals were 5-3 excluding the conference tournament, and 7-4 if you include it.  Carroll was the only sub-.500 team in the conference this year.

Quote from: kiko on March 21, 2022, 02:00:16 PM

Quote from: BaboNation on March 21, 2022, 10:18:34 AM
The WIAC had just one team (Stevens Point) that was underwater OOC at 3-4.  The UAA also had just one in Chicago at 5-6.  The CCIW had 2 (N. Central and Carroll).

I don't disagree with your broader point, but North Central was not underwater in non-conference play.  The Cardinals were 5-3 excluding the conference tournament, and 7-4 if you include it.  Carroll was the only sub-.500 team in the conference this year.

You are correct.  My bad.  I didn't see anywhere that Massey broke down OOC by team and relied on my eyes to do quick math.

Quote from: BaboNation on March 21, 2022, 10:18:34 AM
Looking at the Massey data today it's pretty evident that their conference rankings do indeed cover the postseason.

As others have pointed out the entire conference comes into play, top to bottom, so while the elite members of the conference get the attention the "ball don't lie" as they say.  It's not unusual for some conference members to act as boat anchors, counteracting the work done at the top.

So, the total OOC records, including postseason were:

WIAC 67-20 .770
UAA   73-23 .760
CCIW 63-28 .692
ODAC 57-50 .533

though this is just one metric used in the Massey rankings.

The WIAC had just one team (Stevens Point) that was underwater OOC at 3-4.  The UAA also had just one in Chicago at 5-6.

Non-conference records can be quite deceiving. NYU has turned non-conference scheduling into an art form over the years where they fatten up on the likes of St. Mary's School for the Blind, and then they get smacked once they enter UAA play.
Let's just look at the last 10 years or so (Non-Conference vs. UAA):
10-1 vs. 4-10
7-4 vs. 1-13
6-5 vs. 2-12
7-3 vs. 3-11
5-6 vs. 2-12
12-1 vs. 9-5
11-3 vs. 8-6
10-2 vs. 6-8
10-2 vs. 5-9

NESCAC Non Conference was 92-37 .713

That would put them above CCIW and ODAC

I'll always ride for the NESCAC but this was not a great year for them in the power conference debate. I don't know what those SOS numbers come out to but most of the teams it felt like played very down non conference schedules, made worse by an inability to play most of their holiday tournaments against teams from outside of the region. Amherst always has a cupcake non conference, Williams boosts their numbers against a few good teams that they either didn't get to play this year (Yeshiva, Utica) or lost out with traditionally good opponents being down (Amherst, Springfield). Wesleyan's non-con was not good outside of WPI and Middlebury is another team that usually relies on teams like Plattsburgh St, Skidmore, Keene St, and Albertus Magnus to boost their numbers, which they did not have to nearly the same effect this year.

Quote from: blue_jays on March 22, 2022, 03:04:25 PM
Non-conference records can be quite deceiving. NYU has turned non-conference scheduling into an art form over the years where they fatten up on the likes of St. Mary's School for the Blind, and then they get smacked once they enter UAA play.

This is true and the Violets need to reverse this practice.  They are usually the only team in the league with an SOS out of the Top 50 or so.

Quote from: thebear on March 22, 2022, 04:37:33 PM
NESCAC Non Conference was 92-37 .713

That would put them above CCIW and ODAC

But their SOS was 14th for Massey.  That kills them in this year's rankings.