Thought we should break things off with a new thread.
Have at it!
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 07, 2022, 01:39:27 PM
Thought we should break things off with a new thread.
Have at it!
Pac Lutheran takes one of the bubble Pool C bids
On that first half of the selections... Rowan and Middlebury is my circled match.
Hopkins hosting... Not the BLUE STREAKS again!!!!
Kind of nuts that one of the few teams to give Messiah a game this year were the Violets. Like.. I know it's not purposeful, but... It's pretty crazy.
2-1 win back at the end of Sept.
Williams gets a Pool C. That record is BONKERS.
CMU gets another!!
Oh snap... Tufts vs. UMass Boston is gonna be wild.
And Vassar takes the last spot.
I have to say... They do a darn good job with that... Lots of good nuggets of information and obviously very dialed into how each team got their slot.
Dropping this in here:
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 07, 2022, 01:41:13 PM
Pool C's
UW-Platteville
Pacific Lutheran
Gustavus Adolphus
Middlebury
Franklin and Marshall
Cortland State
Christopher Newport
Lynchburg
Catholic
Johns Hopkins
Williams
New York University
Ohio Northern
North Park
Case Western Reserve
Kenyon
Carnegie Mellon
Tufts
Bowdoin
Vassar
UAA with 4 teams, and 3 of them in the same "region" of the bracket... Weird.
Weather will be a factor in the mid-Atlantic with the remnants of Hurricane/Storm Nicole on Saturday.
Here we go again. What year was it where the rain was so bad that games had to be played on Messiah's turf field? 2017?
There are some really juicy potential second round games!
St Lawrence/Amherst
Mary Washington/OWU
Kenyon/Calvin
Stevens/Middlebury
North Park/ Ohio Northern
Quote from: paclassic89 on November 07, 2022, 02:17:39 PM
Here we go again. What year was it where the rain was so bad that games had to be played on Messiah's turf field? 2017?
I think 2018.
And men have precedence for 1st/2nd round games, right?
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 07, 2022, 02:02:59 PM
UAA with 4 teams, and 3 of them in the same "region" of the bracket... Weird.
As mentioned elsewhere, NESCAC with the "expected" 5 teams, many of us shaking heads over 6 win Williams getting in over a very good Montclair St. team.
Also, like the UAA, they have placed 3 of the NESCAC teams in the same "region." Just shows you they aren't messing with the same type of subjective or, I dunno how to characterize it, but say in the D1 basketball where they get all wrapped up in trying to spread out the teams within a conference.
The only bracketing rule they have to follow is no intra conference matchups in first two rounds.
Quote from: Ejay on November 07, 2022, 02:19:54 PM
There are some really juicy potential second round games!
St Lawrence/Amherst
Mary Washington/OWU
Kenyon/Calvin
Stevens/Middlebury
North Park/ Ohio Northern
Yes, though, the Ohio Wesleyan v. PSU-H first round game is another one of my circled first round match-ups. PSU-H is a sleeper to do some damage in that bracket... Though I don't see either team beating Kenyon, they will both be a handful.
Is there seeding in this and if so, is it done on regional rankings? And not knowing the geography all that well, at what stage could teams have to travel long distances, i.e. fly for a game?
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 07, 2022, 02:36:17 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 07, 2022, 02:02:59 PM
UAA with 4 teams, and 3 of them in the same "region" of the bracket... Weird.
As mentioned elsewhere, NESCAC with the "expected" 5 teams, many of us shaking heads over 6 win Williams getting in over a very good Montclair St. team.
Also, like the UAA, they have placed 3 of the NESCAC teams in the same "region." Just shows you they aren't messing with the same type of subjective or, I dunno how to characterize it, but say in the D1 basketball where they get all wrapped up in trying to spread out the teams within a conference.
Looks like IMO that they are wanting to make sure there is a NESCAC team in the final 4. That way they can still say that it is the best league. Just my thoughts... :)
It'll be a pleasant drop into the low 30s in the upper midwest this weekend for those hosting.
Quote from: EnmoreCat on November 07, 2022, 03:09:44 PM
Is there seeding in this and if so, is it done on regional rankings? And not knowing the geography all that well, at what stage could teams have to travel long distances, i.e. fly for a game?
The team listed first for each game is considered the favorite, higher seed, right?
Quote from: EnmoreCat on November 07, 2022, 03:09:44 PM
Is there seeding in this and if so, is it done on regional rankings? And not knowing the geography all that well, at what stage could teams have to travel long distances, i.e. fly for a game?
I expect there will be teams flying to games in Round 1. Willamette has to travel to the University of Chicago, which is 2,175 miles away and Pacific Lutheran has to travel to Mary Hardin-Baylor in Temple, Texas, which is 2,114 miles away. Ironically, both would take around 32 hours without traffic to drive according to Google maps.
Chapman is much closer to Mary Hardin-Baylor at 1,373 miles, but I suspect they aren't taking a 20 hour bus ride there.
Another reason NESCAC might say they are the best league is their 40-4-11 out of conference record this year, and the fact they had 4 teams make the ncaas last year (out of 11, while uaa and CC had 5), and all 4 went to at least the Elite 8, losing only to each other.
Quote from: Kuiper on November 07, 2022, 03:21:24 PM
Quote from: EnmoreCat on November 07, 2022, 03:09:44 PM
Is there seeding in this and if so, is it done on regional rankings? And not knowing the geography all that well, at what stage could teams have to travel long distances, i.e. fly for a game?
I expect there will be teams flying to games in Round 1. Willamette has to travel to the University of Chicago, which is 2,175 miles away and Pacific Lutheran has to travel to Mary Hardin-Baylor in Temple, Texas, which is 2,114 miles away. Ironically, both would take around 32 hours without traffic to drive according to Google maps.
Chapman is much closer to Mary Hardin-Baylor at 1,373 miles, but I suspect they aren't taking a 20 hour bus ride there.
Rule is either 500 or 600 miles. I don't know if they went back to 500. But regardless, if you are farther than that according to the NCAA TES calculator, you fly.
Does anyone know the list of schools in the tournament this year that do not play on Sundays?
Quote from: futbolfan on November 07, 2022, 03:25:50 PM
Another reason NESCAC might say they are the best league is their 40-4-11 out of conference record this year, and the fact they had 4 teams make the ncaas last year (out of 11, while uaa and CC had 5), and all 4 went to at least the Elite 8, losing only to each other.
Yeah, I made a comparison to the SEC at the beginning of the season.
It might annoy a lot of us, but the numbers don't lie. Someone else made another very compelling argument on their dominance int tournament itself (w-l record is pretty stunning the last... 6-7 years?)
Quote from: jknezek on November 07, 2022, 03:27:43 PM
Quote from: Kuiper on November 07, 2022, 03:21:24 PM
Quote from: EnmoreCat on November 07, 2022, 03:09:44 PM
Is there seeding in this and if so, is it done on regional rankings? And not knowing the geography all that well, at what stage could teams have to travel long distances, i.e. fly for a game?
I expect there will be teams flying to games in Round 1. Willamette has to travel to the University of Chicago, which is 2,175 miles away and Pacific Lutheran has to travel to Mary Hardin-Baylor in Temple, Texas, which is 2,114 miles away. Ironically, both would take around 32 hours without traffic to drive according to Google maps.
Chapman is much closer to Mary Hardin-Baylor at 1,373 miles, but I suspect they aren't taking a 20 hour bus ride there.
Rule is either 500 or 600 miles. I don't know if they went back to 500. But regardless, if you are farther than that according to the NCAA TES calculator, you fly.
That means Birmingham Southern will also be flying to University of Chicago.
Quote from: oacalum on November 07, 2022, 03:28:28 PM
Does anyone know the list of schools in the tournament this year that do not play on Sundays?
Games times are slowly filling in on the bracket (https://www.ncaa.com/brackets/soccer-men/d3/2022). Right now the only bracket that plays Friday/Saturday is the Kenyon bracket.
Looks like IMO that they are wanting to make sure there is a NESCAC team in the final 4. That way they can still say that it is the best league. Just my thoughts... :)
[/quote]
At this point there is just no credible argument to be made against the NESCAC being the best conference in the country.
Quote from: MNBob on November 07, 2022, 03:39:09 PM
Quote from: oacalum on November 07, 2022, 03:28:28 PM
Does anyone know the list of schools in the tournament this year that do not play on Sundays?
Games times are slowly filling in on the bracket (https://www.ncaa.com/brackets/soccer-men/d3/2022). Right now the only bracket that plays Friday/Saturday is the Kenyon bracket.
Greenville and Calvin are both no Sunday play schools. All other brackets are Sat-Sun.
Thanks for the insights. I know the focus here has been on who gets in, but it seems a little strange to my Antipodean brain to have regions and at least not have a more regional flavour to the first and maybe second rounds, even combining adjacent regions for that purpose. Anyway, will move on, lots of interesting match ups to ponder over. I hadn't really known much about Husson until a few hours ago, but am fast approaching world expert status.
Shocked that Catholic makes the tournament. Outside of league champion Scranton who they played 2x (1-1), the only other Tournament team they played was Mary Washington who spanked them 3-1.
Western Connecticut (20-0-2) on the other hand played 4 tournament teams and was 4-0-1.
I can't complain. North Park had a comparatively rough second half of the season, culminating in a freakish, wind-blown 3-2 defeat in the CCIW conference championship game on Saturday, so there's certainly no denying that the Vikings are down a peg or three from where they were a year ago. In spite of that, the Vikings have what I regard as a pretty favorable first weekend, playing unranked Rose-Hulman in the first round and then, if the Vikings win, almost certainly facing pod host Ohio Northern in the second round. NPU knocked off the Polar Bears in Ada earlier this season.
Who knows to what extent they formally do seedings being how much geography plays a part in the bracketing, but Chicago would have had to be the top seed with their record and SOS. Not sure Messiah would have been 2nd given their SOS not being closer or over .600. Amherst may have been 2nd. But they had to be in the top 4, right? And the brackets might suggest that Chicago, Stevens, Messiah, and Amherst were the top 4 seeds, but that's never been completely clear. Anyway, I don't think Messiah ws dealt any favors in the bracketing. This year, with the inconsistency of many teams, the increased parity, and all those ties, it's harder to evaluate who the biggest hurdles may be. But Chicago's quadrant seems to be the lightest after a first pass looking it over. Messiah and Stevens quadrants look to be the tougher two.
Messiah has so many potential rematches lurking in which the revenge factor favors the opponent. NYU or Williams in Round 2. Messiah beat NYU all three meeting including this year, last year and in the 2006 Final Four. Messiah beat Williams in two national semifinals and won in PK's in a Sweet 16 match that was worthy of a final in 2006. But all that was over a decade ago. It could be North Park in the Sweet 16 who they beat in the national final in 2017. Then it could be Washington & Lee, Kenyon or Calvin in the Elite 8. Kenyon certainly would like to get one over on Messiah after giving them a real scare in both NCAA meetings including just last year. They beat Washington & Lee to open the season after the Generals ousted Messiah in last year's Elite 8. Calvin got the better of Messiah the last two times they met in the tournament, so extra motivation for the Falcon's if they'd meet.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 07, 2022, 02:40:56 PM
Quote from: Ejay on November 07, 2022, 02:19:54 PM
There are some really juicy potential second round games!
St Lawrence/Amherst
Mary Washington/OWU
Kenyon/Calvin
Stevens/Middlebury
North Park/ Ohio Northern
Yes, though, the Ohio Wesleyan v. PSU-H first round game is another one of my circled first round match-ups. PSU-H is a sleeper to do some damage in that bracket... Though I don't see either team beating Kenyon, they will both be a handful.
OWU and PS-H aren't gonna play Kenyon.
Kenyon and Calvin are both top 6-7 teams, and one or both will be out by Saturday. I'm not sure would have made any difference either if Kenyon had won against OWU. Calvin usually gets OWU in the 2nd round. Just a brutal, brutal draw (after getting Messiah in 2nd round last year), but I suppose all the more satisfying when lifting the trophy lol.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 07, 2022, 04:21:39 PM
Who knows to what extent they formally do seedings being how much geography plays a part in the bracketing, but Chicago would have had to be the top seed with their record and SOS. Not sure Messiah would have been 2nd given their SOS not being closer or over .600. Amherst may have been 2nd. But they had to be in the top 4, right? And the brackets might suggest that Chicago, Stevens, Messiah, and Amherst were the top 4 seeds, but that's never been completely clear. Anyway, I don't think Messiah ws dealt any favors in the bracketing. This year, with the inconsistency of many teams, the increased parity, and all those ties, it's harder to evaluate who the biggest hurdles may be. But Chicago's quadrant seems to be the lightest after a first pass looking it over. Messiah and Stevens quadrants look to be the tougher two.
Messiah has so many potential rematches lurking in which the revenge factor favors the opponent. NYU or Williams in Round 2. Messiah beat NYU all three meeting including this year, last year and in the 2006 Final Four. Messiah beat Williams in two national semifinals and won in PK's in a Sweet 16 match that was worthy of a final in 2006. It could be North Park in the Sweet 16 who they beat in the national final in 2017. Then it could be Washington & Lee, Kenyon and Calvin in the Elite 8. Kenyon certainly would like to get one over on Messiah after giving them a real scare in both NCAA meetings including just last year. They beat Washington & Lee to open the season after the General ousted Messiah in last year's Elite 8. Calvin got the better of Messiah the last two times they met in the tournament, so extra motivation for the Falcon's if they'd meet.
I am pretty sure you are correct with your top 4. I did a thing where I was looking at the last 4 or 5 years of the brackets (looking for the worst AQ) and I'm pretty sure the top most team in each quadrant would've been considered the top seed in that "region." I'd have to go back and double check, but in my mind, given the results this final weekend, those are the top 4. (Like, say, a Kenyon might be a candidate, but (like Hopkins) they got pipped in their final, so... Looks like a "fair" result in terms of "seeding."
ETA - I'm not trying to equate Hop and Kenyon in hypothetical seeding, just that they both lost conf. tourney finals.
Not for nothing, and I'm not really saying there's anything to take from this, but the C2C got 3 teams in the tournament. Same as Centennial.
Mary Washington
Wisc.-Plattesville
Chris Newport
Muhles
Dips
Hop
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 07, 2022, 01:41:42 PM
On that first half of the selections... Rowan and Middlebury is my circled match.
Hopkins hosting... Not the BLUE STREAKS again!!!!
;)
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 07, 2022, 05:00:17 PM
Not for nothing, and I'm not really saying there's anything to take from this, but the C2C got 3 teams in the tournament. Same as Centennial.
Mary Washington
Wisc.-Plattesville
Chris Newport
Muhles
Dips
Hop
For the C2C conference, I think that's primarily the advantage of being able to play virtually an entire schedule free from conference opponent constraints, while still having a conference tournament that can give one team an AQ spot. Maybe Christopher Newport and Wisconsin-Whitewater got small strength of schedule bumps from playing each other at the conference tournament, but that's about it as far as conference play since Christopher Newport already played Mary Washington during the season in a non-conference game and Wisconsin-Platteville lost to Salisbury.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 07, 2022, 05:00:17 PM
Not for nothing, and I'm not really saying there's anything to take from this, but the C2C got 3 teams in the tournament. Same as Centennial.
Mary Washington
Wisc.-Plattesville
Chris Newport
Muhles
Dips
Hop
Know nothing about C2C, but Muhles got in because they won the Cent. Conf. tournament. Without that CC would have only had 2 teams this year. Hop and Dips were 2nd and 3rd regionally all 3 times behind Messiah.
How Montclair State did not get an invite, that is the biggest surprise for me.
There have always been surprises in the dance since the Prince chose Cinderella.
You just have to win man.
Once you leave it to the guys wearing suits, you can get royally served.
Win the league and get the bid.
I mean, when the guys in the yellow jackets get snubbed, you know its dangerous to trust and hope.
That being said a 20-0-2 record should get you in any dance in the country.
OK, some of Paul Newman's initial thoughts...
I understand that upsets happen and anybody in the tournament is capable of a freakish 1-0 result or loss in PKs. That said, there is not a single team in Chicago's entire quad that can beat them...not a single one where you think "oh yeah, they could beat Chicago." The Maroons could not have asked for a better draw.
Similarly, Amherst should not have a care in the world until at least the Elite 8 when they could face Tufts or Bowdoin. No disrespect to SLU, but not a good draw for the Saints who could just get manhandled by the Mammoths, plus the Saints have to get by a pesky RWU first. MW and OWU are nice teams but no real threat to Amherst who will no doubt be hosting the sectional. I think Tufts will be very happy with their draw. Bowdoin is at home so that's good for them but those could be a couple of difficult first games to get to Tufts in the Sweet 16. Tufts is one of the only teams in the tournament that will have no trepidation at all about playing Amherst and will actually relish it.
Stevens, if you get past the possibility of Middlebury in the 2nd round (no guarantee they beat Rowan), has a pretty awesome bracket from the standpoint that there is no one else overwhelming in the quad. F&M, Cortland, JHU, and JCU are all good teams but they're not gonna strike fear in your heart, and none of them would be favored in a game versus Stevens. Which also means, Midd has a fantastic draw if they get through the first weekend. If Midd beats Rowan I would favor the Stevens-Midd winner to get to the Final Four. That said, great opportunity also for F&M to finally break through and for the Hopkins-JCU winner. Middlebury has two tough but very winnable games and I'm sure are thrilled to not see Amherst or Messiah standing in their way.
I think Messiah actually got a very good draw. If they get Williams, they're getting the NESCAC least likely to bother them out of the five in the tournament, and they already know NYU and what to expect. Can't remember if Messiah can or cannot host the sectional, but in the Sweet 16 if it's North Park I think NPU will be competitive but the style works to Messiah's advantage....up and down, good offense versus great offense. Plus, NPU has to get through Rose-Hulman (not easy at all) and probably ONU where I would favor NPU. The teams most likely to truly challenge Messiah are in the lower half of the quad and of course only one will emerge to see Messiah in the Elite 8, so while the overall quad had a lot of very highly rated teams most of them are in the lower half. Assuming CWRU gets by Muhlenberg they could be a handful for W&L, but either will be a formidable foe in the Sweet 16. I've already talked about Kenyon and Calvin...my complete homer take there is that this potential second round matchup is a travesty. That's an Elite 8 level game. CMU would love to get a crack at Kenyon but I think CMU could play Calvin 10 times and would lose at least 8 or 9 of them.
I will likely adjust my thinking a bit once all the info settles in but right now I see Chicago cruising to the Final Four, Amherst or Tufts going from that quad, the winner of Stevens-Midd if that happens, and if Rowan beats Midd, then between Stevens and the winner of JHU-JCU. If Kenyon can get there I do believe they can challenge Messiah, but I'm guessing the only team that would truly cause the Falcons anxiety is Calvin. In that regard, Calvin is a lot like Tufts. They don't care where they play and they won't be intimidated or distracted by any psychological factors. I also could see W&L or CWRU getting to the Elite 8 but I don't see either being able to handle Messiah.
My quote for the day....Finally getting to the best part of the season means you're much, much closer to the worst.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2022, 06:45:59 PM
OK, some of Paul Newman's initial thoughts...
I understand that upsets happen and anybody in the tournament is capable of a freakish 1-0 result or loss in PKs. That said, there is not a single team in Chicago's entire quad that can beat them...not a single one where you think "oh yeah, they could beat Chicago." The Maroons could not have asked for a better draw.
Similarly, Amherst should not have a care in the world until at least the Elite 8 when they could face Tufts or Bowdoin. No disrespect to SLU, but not a good draw for the Saints who could just get manhandled by the Mammoths, plus the Saints have to get by a pesky RWU first. MW and OWU are nice teams but no real threat to Amherst who will no doubt be hosting the sectional. I think Tufts will be very happy with their draw. Bowdoin is at home so that's good for them but those could be a couple of difficult first games to get to Tufts in the Sweet 16. Tufts is one of the only teams in the tournament that will have no trepidation at all about playing Amherst and will actually relish it.
Stevens, if you get past the possibility of Middlebury in the 2nd round (no guarantee they beat Rowan), has a pretty awesome bracket from the standpoint that there is no one else overwhelming in the quad. F&M, Cortland, JHU, and JCU are all good teams but they're not gonna strike fear in your heart, and none of them would be favored in a game versus Stevens. Which also means, Midd has a fantastic draw if they get through the first weekend. If Midd beats Rowan I would favor the Stevens-Midd winner to get to the Final Four. That said, great opportunity also for F&M to finally break through and for the Hopkins-JCU winner. Middlebury has two tough but very winnable games and I'm sure are thrilled to not see Amherst or Messiah standing in their way.
I think Messiah actually got a very good draw. If they get Williams, they're getting the NESCAC least likely to bother them out of the five in the tournament, and they already know NYU and what to expect. Can't remember if Messiah can or cannot host the sectional, but in the Sweet 16 if it's North Park I think NPU will be competitive but the style works to Messiah's advantage....up and down, good offense versus great offense. Plus, NPU has to get through Rose-Hulman (not easy at all) and probably ONU where I would favor NPU. The teams most likely to truly challenge Messiah are in the lower half of the quad and of course only one will emerge to see Messiah in the Elite 8, so while the overall quad had a lot of very highly rated teams most of them are in the lower half. Assuming CWRU gets by Muhlenberg they could be a handful for W&L, but either will be a formidable foe in the Sweet 16. I've already talked about Kenyon and Calvin...my complete homer take there is that this potential second round matchup is a travesty. That's an Elite 8 level game. CMU would love to get a crack at Kenyon but I think CMU could play Calvin 10 times and would lose at least 8 or 9 of them.
I will likely adjust my thinking a bit once all the info settles in but right now I see Chicago cruising to the Final Four, Amherst or Tufts going from that quad, the winner of Stevens-Midd if that happens, and if Rowan beats Midd, then between Stevens and the winner of JHU-JCU. If Kenyon can get there I do believe they can challenge Messiah, but I'm guessing the only team that would truly cause the Falcons anxiety is Calvin. In that regard, Calvin is a lot like Tufts. They don't care where they play and they won't be intimidated or distracted by any psychological factors. I also could see W&L or CWRU getting to the Elite 8 but I don't see either being able to handle Messiah.
My quote for the day....Finally getting to the best part of the season means you're much, much closer to the worst.
Every time someone says no disrespect, rest assured the disrespect is coming in the next sentence.
I am happy for the teams that no one sees coming, worked will for last years' champion.
For people and teams that have experience in this thing they can tell you, you just can never see past your next game.
I'm old enough to see Messiah get tossed in the first round by a hungry team.
This entire NCAA championship won't come down to the best teams, but the HUNGRIEST ones.
You just have to eat 1 Meal at a time to even have a chance at this thing.
Saint, I don't think that's fair. I try to be as honest as I can, which I'm sure you've seen me do with my own team. If you go with optimism while I lean towards pessimism, well, I wish I was more like you. Getting beyond the eating and mystics, how do you see a possible Amherst-SLU matchup? When you saw it were you pleased?
I rate Amherst highly.
I was the first poster on this board to congratulate them on their NCAA win.
I dont think its a matter of optimism or pessimism.
Both these teams (if they meet) have 13-1-5 records and have played decent competition.
NESCAC is the champions league granted, but Oneonta/Cortland and the LL boys are no push overs either.
Which is why I say, when it comes to deep in the dance, or when certain teams play each other that have stars on their chest, its about the hungrier team. Who wants it more.
Trust me, I would love nothing more than Amherst and the entire country overlooking SLU for just a couple more weeks.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2022, 07:05:38 PM
Saint, I don't think that's fair. I try to be as honest as I can, which I'm sure you've seen me do with my own team. If you go with optimism while I lean towards pessimism, well, I wish I was more like you. Getting beyond the eating and mystics, how do you see a possible Amherst-SLU matchup? When you saw it were you pleased?
Also, mostly tongue and cheek banter :)
Your analysis is very fair and informed, would never seriously think anything less reading your posts.
A couple of thoughts on the Mary Hardin-Baylor pod in Texas:
St. Thomas is more talented than Chapman and this will feel closer to a home game for them since it's still in Texas. They are also faster and more skilled than Chapman and I expect they will exploit whatever matchup on the right or left side of the defense where they have the advantage in getting to the end line. St. Thomas has a target forward who is a load and Chapman is not blessed with a bunch of size or, more importantly, heft, in central defense or GK to really handle him. Nevertheless, St. Thomas isn't quite as strong away from their Houston Sports Park home and they lost at Mary Hardin-Baylor pretty badly last year when they played there. Chapman is very hungry and they won the SCIAC in spectacular fashion with a bicycle kick with 43 seconds remaining in the second OT. I just don't think Chapman, a very up and down team, will be able to get ahold of their emotions and use their grit to counteract St. Thomas' superior skill and athletic ability. Best chance for Chapman is their keeper plays out of his mind on breakaways, but I suspect he's more likely to play TOO much out of his mind and St. Thomas will do things like chip him when he is on a kamikaze mission off his line.
Pac Lutheran had two bad losses - both to Whitman, which is very much a counterattacking team that feasts on teams like Pac Lutheran that like to come out and play. I think Mary Hardin Baylor is more similar to Pac Lutheran than to Whitman, which means this could be a great up and down game. In that situation, there should be an advantage to the home team.
If it plays out like that and St. Thomas advances to play Mary Hardin-Baylor, it will be a rematch of a game where St. Thomas beat Mary Hardin-Baylor 4-1 in Houston back on Sept. 3. Lots has happened since then, but I wouldn't be surprised if the game gets chippy. St. Thomas is the type of team that embellishes fouls (rolling on the ground, etc), lobbies and crowds the ref, pushes the ball up on fouls when the ref isn't looking, and basically seeks to get an advantage by any means necessary. I imagine Mary Hardin-Baylor will be more ready for that than in the first game and this will be one where the coaching might make the difference.
Saint, no worries. I was inelegant with the 'no disrespect' wording, which is weird because I actually thought about how you and stlawus might react. I just think there is a thing where there are better draws than others, and I thought your team, my team, and at least a couple of others certainly did not get a dream draw. But you've got to beat all of them at some point, and earlier is just as good as later.
And @Kuiper, that is just excellent color on the West Coast and Texas teams. Impressive that you know that level of detail.
Saint and I might be homers but I like to think we're still objective, no need to filter posts based on how you think we react!
Top 5 Dance floor take aways:
1. Last years Prom King not invited.
It takes alot to win a championship and even harder to repeat, but gotta feel bad these seniors didnt get a chance to dance again.
2. 20-0-2 No bid. Wow.
3. No U of R feels wierd.
4. No Montclair St. feels wrong
5. Williams plays 17 games and loses just once and gets a bid (well deserved)
5. Williams plays 17 games and wins 6 gets a bid (what tha...).
Quote from: stlawus on November 07, 2022, 09:04:47 PM
Saint and I might be homers but I like to think we're still objective, no need to filter posts based on how you think we react!
Co-Signatured.
PN you mentioned Cortland, and now looking at things you gotta feel pretty confident if you're a Red Dragon. They had a disappointing SUNYAC tournament so they'll be out for blood, and they did get a pretty good draw (on paper). Medaille has a great striker but I don't see Cortland having much issue in that first round. F&M didn't finish the regular season very strong and look vulnerable. They have the home field advantage and are still a great team, but their first round game is no gimme and I think Cortland matches up very well.
Quote from: Saint of Old on November 07, 2022, 09:06:00 PM
Top 5 Dance floor take aways:
1. Last years Prom King not invited.
It takes alot to win a championship and even harder to repeat, but gotta feel bad these seniors didnt get a chance to dance again.
2. 20-0-2 No bid. Wow.
3. No U of R feels wierd.
4. No Montclair St. feels wrong
5. Williams plays 17 games and loses just once and gets a bid (well deserved)
5. Williams plays 17 games and wins 6 gets a bid (what tha...).
1.) Prom King did not deserve it or Williams.
2.) U of PAYWALL can buy their own trophy with all the money they made on their LIVE stream off of other fans.
3.) Montclair St and Western Connecticut deserve a bid, but when you have 43 Automatic bids someone gets left out. I think it is a shame because they both will probably be ranked in the top 25 for this weeks polls.
Quote from: Coach Jeff on November 07, 2022, 09:30:13 PM
2.) U of PAYWALL can buy their own trophy with all the money they made on their LIVE stream off of other fans.
LOL +k
Just wanna say the vibe on this site right now is pretty cool.
Quote from: Saint of Old on November 07, 2022, 07:14:04 PM
I rate Amherst highly.
I was the first poster on this board to congratulate them on their NCAA win.
I dont think its a matter of optimism or pessimism.
Both these teams (if they meet) have 13-1-5 records and have played decent competition.
NESCAC is the champions league granted, but Oneonta/Cortland and the LL boys are no push overs either.
Which is why I say, when it comes to deep in the dance, or when certain teams play each other that have stars on their chest, its about the hungrier team. Who wants it more.
Trust me, I would love nothing more than Amherst and the entire country overlooking SLU for just a couple more weeks.
Rest assured Saint of Old that St Lawrence will not be underestimated by the Mammoths, but first they will be very busy making sure they don't underestimate Husson. Whilst Amherst has shown some good patches in games, I think the Ammirers are yet to see a complete 90 minute display from them and in all of these games from now on, one bad minute can now bring a season to an end and I reckon any team that has made it to the Big Dance will be capable of doing that.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 07, 2022, 11:04:24 PM
Just wanna say the vibe on this site right now is pretty cool.
Posters raising their games man.
This is Playoffs boys, gotta come a bit stronger with the banter and the play on the field!!!
I think the committee in a way is telling teams that they can't hide their way to the tournament by rewarding teams with tougher schedules.
Quote from: camosfan on November 08, 2022, 07:42:02 AM
I think the committee in a way is telling teams that they can't hide their way to the tournament by rewarding teams with tougher schedules.
What more did Mo ntclair need to do?
15-2-4 in a traditionally strong conference
Out of conference games vs. RPI, Catholic, Oswego, Redlands, Vassar, and Alvernia
They don't shy away from scheduling anyone, but I suspect not a lot of teams want to put them on their schedule.
Quote from: Ejay on November 08, 2022, 07:48:04 AM
Quote from: camosfan on November 08, 2022, 07:42:02 AM
I think the committee in a way is telling teams that they can't hide their way to the tournament by rewarding teams with tougher schedules.
What more did Mo ntclair need to do?
15-2-4 in a traditionally strong conference
Out of conference games vs. RPI, Catholic, Oswego, Redlands, Vassar, and Alvernia
They don't shy away from scheduling anyone, but I suspect not a lot of teams want to put them on their schedule.
Thought they would have been invited but I will say this again, Redlands trip was a waste, better teams are a bus ride away. There is a thinking that the late schedule adjustment where they add a CUNYAC team was done to avoid players with accumulated yellows from missing the semis may have hurt them.
Quote from: Saint of Old on November 08, 2022, 06:52:17 AM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 07, 2022, 11:04:24 PM
Just wanna say the vibe on this site right now is pretty cool.
Posters raising their games man.
This is Playoffs boys, gotta come a bit stronger with the banter and the play on the field!!!
This is the first year I am reading about the tournament here (previously just focused on NESCAC) and I am amazed at how much people here know about what many would consider a fairly obscure topic. I get the homers knowing a lot about their teams, but how do the frequent posters know so much about the national d3 soccer landscape? I guess I am not really looking for an answer to that question; I am just appreciating the enthusiasm and knowledge here.
This reminds me of the first time i listened to the Paul Finebaum show and realized there is a population that knows who the fourth string right guard is for every SEC football team before the annual spring football games. And now I know there is a similar (but smaller) population following d3 soccer.
Quote from: Yankeesoccerdad on November 08, 2022, 08:29:31 AM
This is the first year I am reading about the tournament here (previously just focused on NESCAC) and I am amazed at how much people here know about what many would consider a fairly obscure topic. I get the homers knowing a lot about their teams, but how do the frequent posters know so much about the national d3 soccer landscape? I guess I am not really looking for an answer to that question; I am just appreciating the enthusiasm and knowledge here.
Echoes my thoughts as well.
True, but ccny replaced a game vs Centenary that was almost as bad from a schedule point of view.
Quote from: Yankeesoccerdad on November 08, 2022, 08:29:31 AM
This is the first year I am reading about the tournament here (previously just focused on NESCAC) and I am amazed at how much people here know about what many would consider a fairly obscure topic. I get the homers knowing a lot about their teams, but how do the frequent posters know so much about the national d3 soccer landscape? I guess I am not really looking for an answer to that question; I am just appreciating the enthusiasm and knowledge here.
This reminds me of the first time i listened to the Paul Finebaum show and realized there is a population that knows who the fourth string right guard is for every SEC football team before the annual spring football games. And now I know there is a similar (but smaller) population following d3 soccer.
Since I run the Fan Poll on this site I'm just going to say that I'm constantly amazed at the time and effort the pollsters put in and their depth of knowledge. Some are very active posters on here, some are not, but all of them have great insight and knowledge. There are some others on here I wish I could convince to join the poll, but I don't think you will find a better group of D3 soccer analysts anywhere.
Having helped with the D3soccer.com Men's poll this year, I think they get great information fed to them to help them choose their ballots. I'm not sure those coaches, ADs, etc. have the time or inclination to put in their own analysis that the guys doing the Fan Poll have pushed out. Coaches are busy coaching, ADs are busy taking care of all of their sports.
Our Fan Poll voters are... focused... on the national D3 soccer landscape like no one else in the country. Add that to the rest of the community here and it is really a singular place for the best information on a pretty obscure topic.
Quote from: Yankeesoccerdad on November 08, 2022, 08:29:31 AM
Quote from: Saint of Old on November 08, 2022, 06:52:17 AM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 07, 2022, 11:04:24 PM
Just wanna say the vibe on this site right now is pretty cool.
Posters raising their games man.
This is Playoffs boys, gotta come a bit stronger with the banter and the play on the field!!!
This is the first year I am reading about the tournament here (previously just focused on NESCAC) and I am amazed at how much people here know about what many would consider a fairly obscure topic. I get the homers knowing a lot about their teams, but how do the frequent posters know so much about the national d3 soccer landscape? I guess I am not really looking for an answer to that question; I am just appreciating the enthusiasm and knowledge here.
This reminds me of the first time i listened to the Paul Finebaum show and realized there is a population that knows who the fourth string right guard is for every SEC football team before the annual spring football games. And now I know there is a similar (but smaller) population following d3 soccer.
OMG, love Finebaum. In fact, I want to be the Paul Finebaum for D3 Soccer....let's say, for like maybe 250K per year. "OK, BillyRayJimBob from Dubuque, what you got today?"
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 08, 2022, 10:26:22 AM
Quote from: Yankeesoccerdad on November 08, 2022, 08:29:31 AM
Quote from: Saint of Old on November 08, 2022, 06:52:17 AM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 07, 2022, 11:04:24 PM
Just wanna say the vibe on this site right now is pretty cool.
Posters raising their games man.
This is Playoffs boys, gotta come a bit stronger with the banter and the play on the field!!!
This is the first year I am reading about the tournament here (previously just focused on NESCAC) and I am amazed at how much people here know about what many would consider a fairly obscure topic. I get the homers knowing a lot about their teams, but how do the frequent posters know so much about the national d3 soccer landscape? I guess I am not really looking for an answer to that question; I am just appreciating the enthusiasm and knowledge here.
This reminds me of the first time i listened to the Paul Finebaum show and realized there is a population that knows who the fourth string right guard is for every SEC football team before the annual spring football games. And now I know there is a similar (but smaller) population following d3 soccer.
OMG, love Finebaum. In fact, I want to be the Paul Finebaum for D3 Soccer....let's say, for like maybe 250K per year. "OK, BillyRayJimBob from Dubuque, what you got today?"
PN - no doubt you are the front runner with Mr Right dropping out (nothing covert here) but i am working on my resume.
Am I remembering correctly that someone set up a bracket challenge for the tournament last year?
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 08, 2022, 10:26:22 AM
Quote from: Yankeesoccerdad on November 08, 2022, 08:29:31 AM
Quote from: Saint of Old on November 08, 2022, 06:52:17 AM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 07, 2022, 11:04:24 PM
Just wanna say the vibe on this site right now is pretty cool.
Posters raising their games man.
This is Playoffs boys, gotta come a bit stronger with the banter and the play on the field!!!
This is the first year I am reading about the tournament here (previously just focused on NESCAC) and I am amazed at how much people here know about what many would consider a fairly obscure topic. I get the homers knowing a lot about their teams, but how do the frequent posters know so much about the national d3 soccer landscape? I guess I am not really looking for an answer to that question; I am just appreciating the enthusiasm and knowledge here.
This reminds me of the first time i listened to the Paul Finebaum show and realized there is a population that knows who the fourth string right guard is for every SEC football team before the annual spring football games. And now I know there is a similar (but smaller) population following d3 soccer.
OMG, love Finebaum. In fact, I want to be the Paul Finebaum for D3 Soccer....let's say, for like maybe 250K per year. "OK, BillyRayJimBob from Dubuque, what you got today?"
"Well, PN, I just wanna say in response to that last caller that doing away with the sweeper system after Rothert left has nothing to do with anything. You win soccer games by putting the ball in the net, and Loras just ain't doing that right now. You gotta get another Bonilla or Pucci in there who's gonna get it done up top. It kills me that Johnson is bringing in all those Swedes across town who can score, and the Spartans are killing it while the Duhawks have fallen on their faces. In order to get back into the national picture, they need offense. Ya gotta recruit offense! OK, that's all I gotta say, so I'll hang up and wait for your reply."
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 08, 2022, 11:53:47 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 08, 2022, 10:26:22 AM
Quote from: Yankeesoccerdad on November 08, 2022, 08:29:31 AM
Quote from: Saint of Old on November 08, 2022, 06:52:17 AM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 07, 2022, 11:04:24 PM
Just wanna say the vibe on this site right now is pretty cool.
Posters raising their games man.
This is Playoffs boys, gotta come a bit stronger with the banter and the play on the field!!!
This is the first year I am reading about the tournament here (previously just focused on NESCAC) and I am amazed at how much people here know about what many would consider a fairly obscure topic. I get the homers knowing a lot about their teams, but how do the frequent posters know so much about the national d3 soccer landscape? I guess I am not really looking for an answer to that question; I am just appreciating the enthusiasm and knowledge here.
This reminds me of the first time i listened to the Paul Finebaum show and realized there is a population that knows who the fourth string right guard is for every SEC football team before the annual spring football games. And now I know there is a similar (but smaller) population following d3 soccer.
OMG, love Finebaum. In fact, I want to be the Paul Finebaum for D3 Soccer....let's say, for like maybe 250K per year. "OK, BillyRayJimBob from Dubuque, what you got today?"
"Well, PN, I just wanna say in response to that last caller that doing away with the sweeper system after Rothert left has nothing to do with anything. You win soccer games by putting the ball in the net, and Loras just ain't doing that right now. You gotta get another Bonilla or Pucci in there who's gonna get it done up top. It kills me that Johnson is bringing in all those Swedes across town who can score, and the Spartans are killing it while the Duhawks have fallen on their faces. In order to get back into the national picture, they need offense. Ya gotta recruit offense! OK, that's all I gotta say, so I'll hang up and wait for your reply."
That's great!
And Kevin Cavers, Alex Bradley, Jorge Simon, Tommy "take a bow" Fluegel, Richard Lenke, Johnny Rummelhart, and Sam Koenig (current UW-Platteville coach) are not walking through that door.
I am not sure where to ask this question.. I am wondering how the Covid year, having created so many grad student and fifth year players this year will play out going forward.
Quote from: Another Mom on August 07, 2022, 11:02:07 AM
Well, I stand by my opinion :-)
Seriously, teams that didn't make the ncaa tournament ranked in the top 10, over a team that finished in the final four? How does that make any sense? What does Massey "think" is changing. One has a longstanding coach, the other doesn't. Do you think Massey has some special insight into the incoming freshmen?!
I will eat my hat if Williams finishes the year ahead of Washington and Lee -- and I will do it on @simplecoach's YouTube channel to boot!
The great thing about a 6 win Williams team making the tournament is this possibility!
Quote from: Ejay on November 08, 2022, 01:19:09 PM
Quote from: Another Mom on August 07, 2022, 11:02:07 AM
Well, I stand by my opinion :-)
Seriously, teams that didn't make the ncaa tournament ranked in the top 10, over a team that finished in the final four? How does that make any sense? What does Massey "think" is changing. One has a longstanding coach, the other doesn't. Do you think Massey has some special insight into the incoming freshmen?!
I will eat my hat if Williams finishes the year ahead of Washington and Lee -- and I will do it on @simplecoach's YouTube channel to boot!
The great thing about a 6 win Williams team making the tournament is this possibility!
I have to admit to an unhealthy curiosity as to whether we would, in fact, get a chance to see Another Mom dine on her chapeau on SC's YouTube show.
Ha ha ha (although, as someone who always wants to have a Plan B, my mind *has* turned to investigating hat-shaped cakes . . .)
I suppose there's the tiniest chance that the two might play in the tournament . . . Though if they do, I'd better get my hat-eating practice in -- making it out of that quadrant would be quite an achievement.
Pacific Lutheran posted a video on Twitter showing the team's reaction upon learning that they had gotten a Pool C bid. I think it's nice to remember that it's not just a few middle age parents and alums who get excited about this. It's a big deal for the players, especially for a team on the proverbial bubble.
https://twitter.com/golutes/status/1589688260598849536?s=20&t=QoUp61S8whGqLEua7sHacQ
Here's two other views of the reaction (clearly a big deal to the university and the athletics department!)
https://twitter.com/LAllanBelton/status/1589690518573051904?s=20&t=jVnR7YSHjPEf2n3mbdX4Ig
https://twitter.com/PLU_AD/status/1589705296024567808?s=20&t=jVnR7YSHjPEf2n3mbdX4Ig
They also included some quotes from the coach in the press release
https://golutes.com/news/2022/11/7/mens-soccer-mens-soccer-headed-to-fifth-national-tournament.aspx
Even here
https://twitter.com/tuftsjumbos/status/1589693332959088640?s=61&t=w6o7JiKsO3ojtdkD1hu5wQ
Kuiper, do you see any of the West/Texas teams having more than a puncher's chance against Chicago? Willamette and the other four at MHB?
So, as a very biased observer, this is what I think the cmte should have done and could have done rather easily.
And I'm presuming that Stevens was the #4 seed and Kenyon #5 or #6. They could have just switched out Messiah and Stevens and Stevens still could have been a top seed, and you'd have a potential #4 v#5 matchup rather than what some have endorsed as possibly the best team in Messiah history vs a #5 or #6 (all on paper because as we know Stevens and Kenyon have a ton of work to do to even get to an Elite 8).
Also, I get that Calvin is often hard to place. But especially since Calvin is probably or should be the #6 or #7 seed, they just as easily could have been placed with in the pod with North Central (also geographically closer) with St Olaf going to Kenyon. Still a very difficult opponent to match up with CMU and possibly Kenyon but a little more reasonable nonetheless.
IMO it doesn't look like the Cmte was concerned with who the overall top 4 teams were. It appears they just filled the bracket after deciding who these teams were. In most brackets in the NCAA they will place the top seed against number team 64 and #2 against team 63. I doesn't appear that that is what they did in the D3 soccer brackets. Just an observation.
Quote from: camosfan on November 08, 2022, 02:05:57 PM
Even here
https://twitter.com/tuftsjumbos/status/1589693332959088640?s=61&t=w6o7JiKsO3ojtdkD1hu5wQ
Thanks for posting all of those!!
I absolutely think about the players and coaches during that show every year. I've talked about it a bunch, Hopkins being the last one in last year was agonizing, I can't imagine what it was like for the fellas in that room.
So if Marvin Sibanda and SLU take down Amherst (I know I'm getting ahead of myself as Roger Williams will be tough), is Marvin the Div 3 player of the year? I believe most eyes will be on that game.
I would think McDonald from Messiah is the current favorite for D3POY. It would probably take an early Messiah exit for someone else to win it. Just judging by the numbers
He does have a lot of goals (21) on a high scoring team. But you are comparing a forward to a player that played mostly defensive mid-field, or as some others said, point guard, for SLU. Sibanda still scored 11 goals, which was a similar percentage (slightly higher) than McDonald, and had the same amount of assists (6) as Mcdonald. Hoping for the SLU Amherst matchup on a decent pitch. We can't expect them all to be like SLU's or Vassar's grass field, but hopefully the field will be playable after two games Saturday on a rain soaked pitch. Perhaps it will be moved to turf.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 08, 2022, 02:39:09 PM
Kuiper, do you see any of the West/Texas teams having more than a puncher's chance against Chicago? Willamette and the other four at MHB?
Short answer: No
Longer answer: Chicago's offense can be frustrated by a determined defense with speed, size, and strength, but to beat their defense requires one of two things in my opinion:
(1) a moment of brilliance, usually from a long shot. Their GK is solid, but I don't think he's the kind of keeper who makes spectacular saves in the upper 90. Most of Chicago's goals conceded this year came from penalty kicks on hand balls in the box (for some reason), but of the few goals they gave up in the run of play, several came from long shots, including Carthage's goal and one of Wheaton's goals; or
(2) a play that draws out Wada when Gillespie is marauding forward and then uses one touch passing to get through the other players. Wada can makeup ground deceptively fast, but he's best when he can use the angle to deal with speedy players. If you can get him to overplay a target forward (he and Gillespie do that a lot) and one touch it around him, he takes some time to turn and run back (not surprising at his height) and a fast one touch sequence down the middle can be effective.
So, how do the Northwest/Texas teams fare on those things?
I don't think Willamette can play the kind of defense to frustrate Chicago (they lack the speed, GK, and size on corners), although they do have at least one player, Jett Starr, who can hit a nice long shot. Not sure he can uncork that quickly though and Chicago would likely close him down before he had a chance.
Pacific Lutheran's strength is experience (from beating Trinity last year) and it's fighting spirit that might come from having a lot of players who are from the same HS or grew up together. Their leading scorer, for example, is the brother of one of the Assistant Coaches and brought a bunch of kids from his HS. That experience and spirit is worth something, but I don't think they have the talent to challenge Chicago.
Mary Hardin-Baylor has some experience playing against big guns. Last season, they went to Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania and played Messiah pretty evenly before losing 1-0 on a goal in the 107th minute of 2OT and then went to Lancaster two days later and played Franklin & Marshall and their chaos pretty evenly until giving up a goal in the 78th minute to lose 1-0. This year, they've had some hiccups, but dominated in the ASC tournament. I could see them making it out of the second round given that they are playing at home, but I just don't see where they have the offense to unlock Chicago's defense. They've scored a lot of goals as a team and they returned their leading scorers from last year, but these guys scored 7-8 goals each both seasons. You need someone special to unlock Chicago's center backs and these guys are just pretty good.
St. Thomas is the team that has the best chance. They've got a center forward, Salako, who is reasonably tall, but with a wide body and holds up the ball well for distribution and/or gets fouled. He scored 9 goals, but he also led the team in assists with 8. The two leading scorers were Aleman (16 goals/5 assists) and Castro (17 goals/4 assists). They could score on a free kick near the box or in the run of play. All of that presents some challenges Chicago may not have seen, especially with players who have tight foot skills. Could St. Thomas defend? I think so, but that's less clear. They have speed and they get stuck in, but their GKs are short and they might have trouble on corner kicks. Bigger concerns I have for them relates to something I mentioned during the season in their game against Colorado College. They have a style of reacting to fouls that I see a lot in Southern California and South Texas when I lived there. It involves complaining about every decision, mass confrontation of the refs, embellishment, pushing the ball forward when the refs aren't looking (which I see on throw-ins everywhere nowadays), etc. That may be OK with the refs they will see in the first two rounds, but when they get out of region, they may find themselves in trouble. Plus, St. Thomas' is almost exclusively from Houston (although some list their home towns in El Salvador, Venezuela, Mexico etc). Playing in Chicago in November with the cold/wind etc would be new for many of them. They have the passing skills to keep it on the floor and Chicago's turf field would suit them better than playing on one of those muddy or frozen cow pastures some schools have this time of year, but I'm not sure how they would react. It's kind of like the US playing Mexican or Central American teams in Minnesota.
UPDATE: I realized I left out Chapman. I just don't see them taking Chicago. Chapman's offense is built around high pressing the defenders and that simply doesn't work against Chicago. And Chapman's defense is not particularly strong as a unit. Strong passing teams can go around them pretty easily (that's how Pomona-Pitzer got off to a 3-1 lead on them at halftime against them before falling apart). They have one strong defender and their GK cleans up a lot of messes by being really aggressive. He comes out hard and far. In fact, he might be the right kind of GK to defend against Chicago on corners, not because he's tall, but because he's going to track the ball and fight to get a touch on it. So many of Chicago's corner kick goals are because the GK stayed on his line and the defenders lost track of or couldn't handle Chicago's big guys. The problem is that if your GK has to come off his line to save your defense time and time again, skilled players are going to dance around him and slot it home since the GK has left the goal wide open.
If we are doing PoY, this is my current thinking.
Luke Groothoff, Messiah
Matt McDonald, Messiah
Jared Pavlovich, Messiah
Richard Gillespie, Chicago
Griffin Wada, Chicago
Marvin Sibanda, St. Lawrence
Marcos Vila, Luther
Ian Daly, Tufts
Payton Blynn, Western Connecticut
Shea Bechtel, St. Olaf
Jake Vogrin, John Carroll
Adam Silva, Stevens
Michael Kutsanzira, Washington & Lee
Carter Thiesfeld, WI Eau Claire
Sam Farrell, Franklin and Marshall
Laurens ten Cate, Amherst
Well, maybe not all of them would be finalists, but this would be one hell of a lineup....
SC.
Quote from: SimpleCoach on November 08, 2022, 06:17:35 PM
If we are doing PoY, this is my current thinking.
Luke Groothoff, Messiah
Matt McDonald, Messiah
Jared Pavlovich, Messiah
Richard Gillespie, Chicago
Ben Brandt, Chicago
Marvin Sibanda, St. Lawrence
Marcos Vila, Luther
Ian Daly, Tufts
Payton Blynn, Western Connecticut
Shea Bechtel, St. Olaf
Jake Vogrin, John Carroll
Adam Silva, Stevens
Michael Kutsanzira, Washington & Lee
Carter Thiesfeld, WI Eau Claire
Sam Farrell, Franklin and Marshall
Laurens ten Cate, Amherst
Well, maybe not all of them would be finalists, but this would be one hell of a lineup....
SC.
I'm guessing you meant Griffin Wada for UChicago, since Ben Brandt graduated last year.
Quote from: blue_jays on November 08, 2022, 06:42:55 PM
Quote from: SimpleCoach on November 08, 2022, 06:17:35 PM
If we are doing PoY, this is my current thinking.
Luke Groothoff, Messiah
Matt McDonald, Messiah
Jared Pavlovich, Messiah
Richard Gillespie, Chicago
Ben Brandt, Chicago
Marvin Sibanda, St. Lawrence
Marcos Vila, Luther
Ian Daly, Tufts
Payton Blynn, Western Connecticut
Shea Bechtel, St. Olaf
Jake Vogrin, John Carroll
Adam Silva, Stevens
Michael Kutsanzira, Washington & Lee
Carter Thiesfeld, WI Eau Claire
Sam Farrell, Franklin and Marshall
Laurens ten Cate, Amherst
Well, maybe not all of them would be finalists, but this would be one hell of a lineup....
SC.
I'm guessing you meant Griffin Wada for UChicago, since Ben Brandt graduated last year.
Indeed. Not sure where that came from. In their case, if you could make co-PoY or Tandem of the Year.
Quote from: Ejay on November 07, 2022, 04:15:01 PM
Shocked that Catholic makes the tournament. Outside of league champion Scranton who they played 2x (1-1), the only other Tournament team they played was Mary Washington who spanked them 3-1.
Western Connecticut (20-0-2) on the other hand played 4 tournament teams and was 4-0-1.
Catholic was a true bubble team no doubt but they get in and will make their 5th appearance in the dance within the last decade. Catholic was 2-2 against teams that made the tournament (1-1 against Scranton, Loss to UMW, and win over Marymount), they also tied Gettysburg and Montclair St and beat Drew convincingly, 4-1. I would argue that if Western Conn State should have gotten in over an at large team it should have been Vassar who they beat head to head. WCS was 4-0-1 against teams that made the tournament but overall their strength of schedule was weaker in my opinion. One goal victories against Lehman, USMAA, and UMass Boston and a draw to Drew is not as impressive as 4-0-1 vs tournament teams sounds. Those teams all will likely be bounced in the first round and maybe Catholic and Vassar will too, who knows.
The ironic thing to me is that this is the best tournament draw that Catholic has gotten since 2014 and they're an at large bid. The past two tournaments when they have won the Landmark they got dealt Connecticut College in the first round the year they won it all and last year they got Kenyon in the first round. I think the Lynchburg vs Catholic game will be a good one, I think both teams are evenly matched and CNU in the second round is not unreasonable either. Time will tell whether Catholic will take advantage but this is definitely their best opportunity to make some noise in the tournament.
Quote from: LetteroftheLaw on November 09, 2022, 08:59:08 AM
Quote from: Ejay on November 07, 2022, 04:15:01 PM
Shocked that Catholic makes the tournament. Outside of league champion Scranton who they played 2x (1-1), the only other Tournament team they played was Mary Washington who spanked them 3-1.
Western Connecticut (20-0-2) on the other hand played 4 tournament teams and was 4-0-1.
Catholic was a true bubble team no doubt but they get in and will make their 5th appearance in the dance within the last decade. Catholic was 2-2 against teams that made the tournament (1-1 against Scranton, Loss to UMW, and win over Marymount), they also tied Gettysburg and Montclair St and beat Drew convincingly, 4-1. I would argue that if Western Conn State should have gotten in over an at large team it should have been Vassar who they beat head to head. WCS was 4-0-1 against teams that made the tournament but overall their strength of schedule was weaker in my opinion. One goal victories against Lehman, USMAA, and UMass Boston and a draw to Drew is not as impressive as 4-0-1 vs tournament teams sounds. Those teams all will likely be bounced in the first round and maybe Catholic and Vassar will too, who knows.
The ironic thing to me is that this is the best tournament draw that Catholic has gotten since 2014 and they're an at large bid. The past two tournaments when they have won the Landmark they got dealt Connecticut College in the first round the year they won it all and last year they got Kenyon in the first round. I think the Lynchburg vs Catholic game will be a good one, I think both teams are evenly matched and CNU in the second round is not unreasonable either. Time will tell whether Catholic will take advantage but this is definitely their best opportunity to make some noise in the tournament.
Minor correction...the year Conn Coll won it all and Catholic losing to Kenyon were the same tournament....both last year.
Good call, that's my fault. Conn College was still really good in 2019 and made a nice run before losing to the eventual National Champion Tufts. Point still stands, Catholic finally has a winnable first round game for the first time since 2014.
I've been following the dialogue here for quite sometime, more so the last two weeks or so. Really having a hard time wrapping my head around a 20-0-2 team not even "being brought to the table" as some of you have put. Clearly something is wrong with the committee process and standards for bids to the national tournament.
Surely a few tenths of a percentage in lower SoS can't be the deciding factor when the actual winning percentage is a full 2 to 3 points higher? Westconn was 4-0-1 against teams in the tournament, but they only won those games by one goal and that is a bad thing? In a year full of ties, they WON. Finishing with the 3rd best win% in the country, tied for most shutouts, 2nd best goal differential, 3rd most goals scored. Left out. Between them and Montclair, they have some legitimate beef!
If team names were left off of resumes presented to the committee, Westconn would never have been left out of the big dance. Given Montclair's more known name in the world of D3 Soccer - its just as head scratching
*Full disclaimer, I have no ties to Westconn or Montclair. I live in CT and go to a number of different college games each season to watch with my kids. Just love watching good competitive soccer.
Quote from: Planters Nuts on November 09, 2022, 10:22:43 AM
I've been following the dialogue here for quite sometime, more so the last two weeks or so. Really having a hard time wrapping my head around a 20-0-2 team not even "being brought to the table" as some of you have put. Clearly something is wrong with the committee process and standards for bids to the national tournament.
Surely a few tenths of a percentage in lower SoS can't be the deciding factor when the actual winning percentage is a full 2 to 3 points higher? Westconn was 4-0-1 against teams in the tournament, but they only won those games by one goal and that is a bad thing? In a year full of ties, they WON. Finishing with the 3rd best win% in the country, tied for most shutouts, 2nd best goal differential, 3rd most goals scored. Left out. Between them and Montclair, they have some legitimate beef!
If team names were left off of resumes presented to the committee, Westconn would never have been left out of the big dance. Given Montclair's more known name in the world of D3 Soccer - its just as head scratching
*Full disclaimer, I have no ties to Westconn or Montclair. I live in CT and go to a number of different college games each season to watch with my kids. Just love watching good competitive soccer.
I was pulling for West CT. And I think taking the names off to assess the resumes often is a very helpful idea. In this case, however, 20-0-2 and a SoS of .510-.515 would have stood out like a sore thumb. So in this case I think the argument is more about how the major criteria get weighted. For me it was enough but obviously for the cmte it wasn't. I would have been very curious to see if would have made a difference if West CT had been #2 in Region II instead of #7 in Region I.
I also wonder if geography may have played into a few of the final picks, and perhaps explains Montclair versus CMU or UW-Platteville or Pac Lutheran or Vassar, etc.
Quote from: Planters Nuts on November 09, 2022, 10:22:43 AM
I've been following the dialogue here for quite sometime, more so the last two weeks or so. Really having a hard time wrapping my head around a 20-0-2 team not even "being brought to the table" as some of you have put. Clearly something is wrong with the committee process and standards for bids to the national tournament.
Surely a few tenths of a percentage in lower SoS can't be the deciding factor when the actual winning percentage is a full 2 to 3 points higher? Westconn was 4-0-1 against teams in the tournament, but they only won those games by one goal and that is a bad thing? In a year full of ties, they WON. Finishing with the 3rd best win% in the country, tied for most shutouts, 2nd best goal differential, 3rd most goals scored. Left out. Between them and Montclair, they have some legitimate beef!
If team names were left off of resumes presented to the committee, Westconn would never have been left out of the big dance. Given Montclair's more known name in the world of D3 Soccer - its just as head scratching
*Full disclaimer, I have no ties to Westconn or Montclair. I live in CT and go to a number of different college games each season to watch with my kids. Just love watching good competitive soccer.
I think most of us believe Western Conn being placed behind Hamilton in the Region 1 Regional Rankings was... a travesty. A fair number of us probably think putting them behind Williams was a less than elegant solution. But that is what the committee did and, given the vagaries in how primary criteria is applied, those decisions are defendable. SoS was highly valued this year. The NESCAC's well earned reputation as the best conference in D3 soccer earned them a lot of leeway. More than I think they should have gotten in this case, but not incorrectly applied by an interpretation of the criteria.
That's why you don't leave it up to the committee. Win your conference. While I think Western Ct should be in the tournament over others that were selected, they should have guaranteed themselves a spot by winning the automatic qualifier. They didn't, and they paid a very heavy price.
Quote from: Planters Nuts on November 09, 2022, 10:22:43 AM
I've been following the dialogue here for quite sometime, more so the last two weeks or so. Really having a hard time wrapping my head around a 20-0-2 team not even "being brought to the table" as some of you have put. Clearly something is wrong with the committee process and standards for bids to the national tournament.
Surely a few tenths of a percentage in lower SoS can't be the deciding factor when the actual winning percentage is a full 2 to 3 points higher? Westconn was 4-0-1 against teams in the tournament, but they only won those games by one goal and that is a bad thing? In a year full of ties, they WON. Finishing with the 3rd best win% in the country, tied for most shutouts, 2nd best goal differential, 3rd most goals scored. Left out. Between them and Montclair, they have some legitimate beef!
If team names were left off of resumes presented to the committee, Westconn would never have been left out of the big dance. Given Montclair's more known name in the world of D3 Soccer - its just as head scratching
*Full disclaimer, I have no ties to Westconn or Montclair. I live in CT and go to a number of different college games each season to watch with my kids. Just love watching good competitive soccer.
I was just responding to Ejay about his claim that he was shocked that Catholic got in and acknowledged that West Conn had a stronger argument to get in over Vassar than Catholic since they beat them head to head and Vassar has the same amount of losses as Catholic and fewer wins. I do think you make a good point about getting actual results despite the small margin of victory. With that being said, the only comparable result you can look at between West Conn and Catholic is their games against Drew who Catholic handled 4-1 and West Conn tied.
As for Montclair State I think they have a strong argument given their national ranking through the year and also beating Vassar head to head. They also played Catholic head to head and tied, who knew a game in early September would have such a drastic impact on the committee but certainly seems like that factored in big time.
It's an interesting discussion for sure but I'm happy to be on the good side of the committees decision for once.
I don't disagree that they should have taken care of business during their conference final. I watched two of their games this season (normally always watch Western vs Eastern as its a great in state rival and crosses off two CT teams in one game!). The other game being their first match against UMass Boston. The 2-1 score line made it appear to be close but it was far from it. A Questionable PK awarded to UMass made that game appear close.
Perhaps Umass decided to sit back and absorb in the Finals. Whatever they did clearly worked for them. WestConn was head and shoulders above them, and quite frankly took it to Eastern on their grass field 3-1.
They appear to have a young team, hopefully those kids take this as fuel for next year. And I guess schedule some better opponents! This has to be the first time ever a team that never lost failed to make the NCAA, right?
Not sure about an undefeated team, but Randolph in 2013 was 17-2-1 (10-1 in ODAC), lost in ODAC final 2-1 OT to VWU, and I don't think anyone thought for a second that Randolph would get a bid. Iirc may not ever have been regionally ranked that year. May have had a SoS even lower than West CT.
Welcome Planter!!
Yes ... welcome aboard, Planter!
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 09, 2022, 10:59:16 AM
Not sure about an undefeated team, but Randolph in 2013 was 17-2-1 (10-1 in ODAC), lost in ODAC final 2-1 OT to VWU, and I don't think anyone thought for a second that Randolph would get a bid. Iirc may not ever have been regionally ranked that year. May have had a SoS even lower than West CT.
Claremont-Mudd-Scripps had a 14-1-3 record in D3 games last year, with their only loss coming in the SCIAC tournament finals to Redlands, was regionally ranked 3 behind Trinity and Redlands. They also had a .542 SoS, which is a strong record given their required conference schedule. Plus, they beat Redlands the first time they played them. Nevertheless, they didn't get a Pool C bid. They actually scheduled this year to overcome their SoS and RvR issues from 2021, playing games at Trinity, Southwestern, Willamette, and Pacific Lutheran (but three ties, two losses, and a hazing suspension later, this season was a total wash). That's basically the scheduling Western Conn has to do next year and they can do so at greatly reduced cost compared to a Region X school.
Question to all...
If you could replace 2 teams in the field of 64 who would you put in and who would you take out? ;D
Pool C's only or anyone? Lots of AQs could be replaced by stronger Pool C's who got left out
Good point! Pool C
Quote from: paclassic89 on November 09, 2022, 11:28:37 AM
Pool C's only or anyone? Lots of AQs could be replaced by stronger Pool C's who got left out
What AQ Leagues would you drop?
Quote from: SKUD on November 09, 2022, 11:32:01 AM
Good point! Pool C
I think the last four in were Vassar, Catholic, Lynchburg, Williams
I think last two out were Montclair St and West Conn State - both in order
Quote from: LetteroftheLaw on November 09, 2022, 12:53:22 PM
Quote from: SKUD on November 09, 2022, 11:32:01 AM
Good point! Pool C
I think the last four in were Vassar, Catholic, Lynchburg, Williams
I think last two out were Montclair St and West Conn State - both in order
I'm guessing UW-Platteville and CMU also were borderline.
Montclair versus Calvin would have been a very interesting match.
Also would toss Brockport into the snubs category with MSU and W CT.
Quote from: paclassic89 on November 09, 2022, 11:28:37 AM
Pool C's only or anyone? Lots of AQs could be replaced by stronger Pool C's who got left out
Yes and No for me. Obviously, there are teams that got hot for 2 or 3 games (including through the horrible PK shootout system) and would most likely never be an at-large bid. There clearly are teams that should have gotten at-large bids.
However, starting the season every team has the dream of making the NCAAs and not all teams make it into their conf. tourney. Many of the teams who qualify for the conf. tournament stumble along the way so wouldn't be considered for at-large bid. This year I believe that there are two teams that never made the NCAAs and they had to win their tournaments to qualify. I don't know if there are any at-large teams who had not been in the NCAAs most recently (in the last 5 years).
So, IMO this is good thing for D3 soccer and makes their programs as well as soccer in general stronger! Win the tournament and there is chance to make their programs better the next couple of years.
I assume most conferences feel that awarding the AQ to the tournament winner increases the chances of getting at leat 2 teams into the tournament. Finishing first in the regular season of a strong conference probably has a team in the rankings already so losing out in the tournament isn't as costly.
UWEC received the Pool b berth. It is only year 2 of the program. Would they have earned a pool C berth? IMO they would have beat out UW-Platville for Pool C.
Quote from: LetteroftheLaw on November 09, 2022, 12:53:22 PM
Quote from: SKUD on November 09, 2022, 11:32:01 AM
Good point! Pool C
I think the last four in were Vassar, Catholic, Lynchburg, Williams
I think last two out were Montclair St and West Conn State - both in order
Western CT and Montclair St. could not have both been among the first two out. Hamilton remained ahead of Western Ct on the 11/6 Regional Rankings so Hamilton would have been the Region 1 team up for discussion when the final selection was made. Western Ct never made it to the table to be given a chance. Since NYU was chosen, Montclair St would have been at the table when the last selection was made. They would have been left sitting with 8 other unchosen Regional contenders, one of them Hamilton, but not Western Ct.
So assuming Montclair St would have been the next pick, Hamilton would still have needed to be selected before Western Ct even came to the table. Or Hamilton, West Conn could have been the next 2 picks but then Montclair would still be sitting unselected.
I know I'm splitting hairs pointing out that one of those teams could have been no higher than the 3rd left out selection, but it's important to understand the process and understand how the Region 1 reps buried West Conn so they wouldn't even get discussed. Now in the past, the National Committee had the ability to restructure the Regional Rankings if they believed there was a good reason. I don't know if that verbiage remained in the Handbook this year. But in my years of following soccer and football, I can't remember it happening anyway.
Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 09, 2022, 01:33:59 PM
Quote from: paclassic89 on November 09, 2022, 11:28:37 AM
Pool C's only or anyone? Lots of AQs could be replaced by stronger Pool C's who got left out
Yes and No for me. Obviously, there are teams that got hot for 2 or 3 games (including through the horrible PK shootout system) and would most likely never be an at-large bid. There clearly are teams that should have gotten at-large bids.
However, starting the season every team has the dream of making the NCAAs and not all teams make it into their conf. tourney. Many of the teams who qualify for the conf. tournament stumble along the way so wouldn't be considered for at-large bid. This year I believe that there are two teams that never made the NCAAs and they had to win their tournaments to qualify. I don't know if there are any at-large teams who had not been in the NCAAs most recently (in the last 5 years).
So, IMO this is good thing for D3 soccer and makes their programs as well as soccer in general stronger! Win the tournament and there is chance to make their programs better the next couple of years.
Actually, seven men's team are in the NCAA Tournament for the first time in program history. Six earned an automatic berth via their conference tournament: Birmingham-Southern, Brevard, Franciscan, Marymount, St. Joseph (Conn.). St. Thomas (Texas). The seventh is UW-Eau Claire who was the Pool B at-large selection. On the women's side there are five first-time NCAA participants.
We indicate these teams on D3soccer.com's NCAA Participants pages:
2022 Men's NCAA Tournament Participants (https://d3soccer.com/ncaatournament/2022/men/2022-mens-participants)
2022 Women's NCAA Tournament Participants (https://d3soccer.com/ncaatournament/2022/women/2022-womens-participants)
Look for the bold, red
1st in the column for Years Participated.
hey all - i knew last year someone created a bracket, but haven't seen it yet. i went ahead and created a pool for this season, feel free to join here.
https://www.runyourpool.com/p/j/8da271f5b60243f586c393ea94dc3b62
let me know if you have any thoughts or questions!
I know NESCAC has its reputation - but given all the ties this year (looking at you Williams) what stops them from trying to win games next year in that conference. Just continue to play for ties and maybe at some point get a fortunate counter!
The committee setting a standard that ties are more important than winning (as long as your SoS is higher) is a bad message in my opinion. Not sure who it was that posted here, but they looked at Williams' record as failing to win more than 50% of their games at 6-1-10. I couldn't agree more with that argument.
Quote from: Planters Nuts on November 09, 2022, 02:15:10 PM
I know NESCAC has its reputation - but given all the ties this year (looking at you Williams) what stops them from trying to win games next year in that conference. Just continue to play for ties and maybe at some point get a fortunate counter!
The committee setting a standard that ties are more important than winning (as long as your SoS is higher) is a bad message in my opinion. Not sure who it was that posted here, but they looked at Williams' record as failing to win more than 50% of their games at 6-1-10. I couldn't agree more with that argument.
I'm infrequently a NESCAC apologist, but it seems to me that Williams has gotten singled out as the poster child in a way that's unfair. Do you know for a fact that Williams wasn't trying to win games? I understand that on paper they may be one of or even the most egregious example, but as many have noted and complained about, this has been the year for draws. There are a slew of teams with 5, 6, 7, 8 ties.
I mean, does anyone think Hopkins wanted to tie Muhlenberg...or that W CT wanted to tie UMass-Boston....or Tufts and Bowdoin wanted to tie Williams and Conn?
Quote from: Planters Nuts on November 09, 2022, 02:15:10 PM
I know NESCAC has its reputation - but given all the ties this year (looking at you Williams) what stops them from trying to win games next year in that conference. Just continue to play for ties and maybe at some point get a fortunate counter!
The committee setting a standard that ties are more important than winning (as long as your SoS is higher) is a bad message in my opinion. Not sure who it was that posted here, but they looked at Williams' record as failing to win more than 50% of their games at 6-1-10. I couldn't agree more with that argument.
I agree and I don't think Williams strong defense, weak offense will serve them well this weekend.
Someone just gave me a good idea. Gonna go through the quadrants and look at Massey rankings for each match-up. See where we're at on that front.
REGION 1
UChicago #2 v. Birmingham So. #135
Willamette 40 v. WI Platt 56
St. Thomas 9 v. Chapman 46
M H-B 30 v. Pac Lu 20
=-=-=-=-=
G. Adolphus 26 v. Aurora 119
WI Eu-Claire 12 v. Luther 52
N. Central 10 v. WI Superior 137
St. Olaf 14 v. Lake Forest 212
REGION 2
Stevens 15 v. Worcester St. 211
Rowan 42 v. Middlebury 5
F&M 19 v. St. Joe's (CT) 162
SUNY Cort 23 v. Medaille 165
=-==-=-=-=-
CNU 8 v. Rosemont 224
Lynchburg 36 v. Catholic 37
Hopkins 17 v. Lehman 280
J. Carroll 24 v. Scranton 96
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 09, 2022, 03:34:57 PM
Someone just gave me a good idea. Gonna go through the quadrants and look at Massey rankings for each match-up. See where we're at on that front.
REGION 1
UChicago #2 v. Birmingham So. #135
Willamette 40 v. WI Platt 56
St. Thomas 9 v. Chapman 46
M H-B 334 v. Pac Lu 20
=-=-=-=-=
G. Adolphus 26 v. Aurora 119
WI Eu-Claire 12 v. Luther 52
N. Central 10 v. WI Superior 137
St. Olaf 14 v. Lake Forest 212
Mary Hardin-Baylor is 30 in Massey. Mary Baldwin is 334.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 09, 2022, 02:30:14 PM
I mean, does anyone think Hopkins wanted to tie Muhlenberg...or that W CT wanted to tie UMass-Boston....or Tufts and Bowdoin wanted to tie Williams and Conn?
Parking the bus is a very legitimate defensive strategy that is reinforced by the treatment of ties in winning percentage as 50/50 as opposed to 33% in the 3pt/1pt system. I think if you are being outplayed, playing for a tie is over-rewarded especially since we've made ties 50% easier this year.
Of their 10 ties, I'm too lazy to go check and see how often Williams was statistically dominant. But if I'm a coach, and I know my offense is... light, as Williams appeared all season (2 games where they scored more than twice, 6 games where they didn't score), then playing for a tie when equal or overmatched makes sense. As anemic as the #307 scoring offense in the country is, with 1.18 goals per game, I probably am not real interested in throwing players forward looking for a goal I'm unlikely to get even if I am the better team.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 09, 2022, 02:30:14 PM
I mean, does anyone think Hopkins wanted to tie Muhlenberg...or that W CT wanted to tie UMass-Boston....or Tufts and Bowdoin wanted to tie Williams and Conn?
Or Hopkins wanted to tie Muhlenberg twice?
Quote from: Kuiper on November 09, 2022, 03:38:42 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 09, 2022, 03:34:57 PM
Someone just gave me a good idea. Gonna go through the quadrants and look at Massey rankings for each match-up. See where we're at on that front.
REGION 1
UChicago #2 v. Birmingham So. #135
Willamette 40 v. WI Platt 56
St. Thomas 9 v. Chapman 46
M H-B 334 v. Pac Lu 20
=-=-=-=-=
G. Adolphus 26 v. Aurora 119
WI Eu-Claire 12 v. Luther 52
N. Central 10 v. WI Superior 137
St. Olaf 14 v. Lake Forest 212
Mary Hardin-Baylor is 30 in Massey. Mary Baldwin is 334.
Should've double checked, thanks kuiper!
Quote from: jknezek on November 09, 2022, 03:44:30 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 09, 2022, 02:30:14 PM
I mean, does anyone think Hopkins wanted to tie Muhlenberg...or that W CT wanted to tie UMass-Boston....or Tufts and Bowdoin wanted to tie Williams and Conn?
Parking the bus is a very legitimate defensive strategy that is reinforced by the treatment of ties in winning percentage as 50/50 as opposed to 33% in the 3pt/1pt system. I think if you are being outplayed, playing for a tie is over-rewarded especially since we've made ties 50% easier this year.
Of their 10 ties, I'm too lazy to go check and see how often Williams was statistically dominant. But if I'm a coach, and I know my offense is... light, as Williams appeared all season (2 games where they scored more than twice, 6 games where they didn't score), then playing for a tie when equal or overmatched makes sense. As anemic as the #307 scoring offense in the country is, with 1.18 goals per game, I probably am not real interested in throwing players forward looking for a goal I'm unlikely to get even if I am the better team.
Fair enough. I just doubt Williams went into the season saying let's go get 10 draws. I picked the examples I did because they presumably had little to do with winning pct calculations as they were knockout games and in a couple of cases involved losing AQs, and of course in W Ct's case involved not being in the tournament. And why do Amherst and SLU have 5 draws, and many others 7 or more? It's also a pretty high-risk proposition....going for draws if in fact that is true means you're really chancing that you won't give up a fluke goal a few of those 10 times.
REGION 3
Messiah 1 v. Franciscan 227
Williams 27 v. NYU 32
ONU 41 v. Mt. Aloysius 225
North Park 18 v. Rose Hulman 123
=-=-=-=-=-=
W&L 16 v. Brevard 161
Case West 33 v. Muhles 62
Kenyon 4 v. Greenville 220
Calvin 13 v. Carnegie M 38
REGION 4
Amherst 3 v. Husson 204
St. Law. 31 v. Roger W. 111
Mary Wash. 21 v. Marymount 182
OWU 50 v. PSU-H 113
=-=--=-===
SUNY Oneonta 35 v. NE Coll. 284
Tufts 25 v. UMASS-B 82
Bowdoin 6 v. Merch. Marine 149
Babson 7 v. Vassar 60
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 09, 2022, 03:50:59 PM
Quote from: jknezek on November 09, 2022, 03:44:30 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 09, 2022, 02:30:14 PM
I mean, does anyone think Hopkins wanted to tie Muhlenberg...or that W CT wanted to tie UMass-Boston....or Tufts and Bowdoin wanted to tie Williams and Conn?
Parking the bus is a very legitimate defensive strategy that is reinforced by the treatment of ties in winning percentage as 50/50 as opposed to 33% in the 3pt/1pt system. I think if you are being outplayed, playing for a tie is over-rewarded especially since we've made ties 50% easier this year.
Of their 10 ties, I'm too lazy to go check and see how often Williams was statistically dominant. But if I'm a coach, and I know my offense is... light, as Williams appeared all season (2 games where they scored more than twice, 6 games where they didn't score), then playing for a tie when equal or overmatched makes sense. As anemic as the #307 scoring offense in the country is, with 1.18 goals per game, I probably am not real interested in throwing players forward looking for a goal I'm unlikely to get even if I am the better team.
Fair enough. I just doubt Williams went into the season saying let's go get 10 draws. I picked the examples I did because they presumably had little to do with winning pct calculations as they were knockout games and in a couple of cases involved losing AQs, and of course in W Ct's case involved not being in the tournament. And why do Amherst and SLU have 5 draws, and many others 7 or more? It's also a pretty high-risk proposition....going for draws if in fact that is true means you're really chancing that you won't give up a fluke goal a few of those 10 times.
I sincerely doubt most college teams...and especially those of Williams's caliber...go into a season or an individual game thinking "let's assure ourselves of a tie". Purely from an anecdotal standpoint, it certainly appears that the new 90 minute cap has led to significantly more ties this season. If I had to guess, I would guess there's a subliminal factor at play...where a team that has registered a number of ties (let's take Williams as an example), begins to expect a tie as a likely outcome. I have a feeling those expectations begin to creep in...
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 09, 2022, 03:50:59 PM
Quote from: jknezek on November 09, 2022, 03:44:30 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 09, 2022, 02:30:14 PM
I mean, does anyone think Hopkins wanted to tie Muhlenberg...or that W CT wanted to tie UMass-Boston....or Tufts and Bowdoin wanted to tie Williams and Conn?
Parking the bus is a very legitimate defensive strategy that is reinforced by the treatment of ties in winning percentage as 50/50 as opposed to 33% in the 3pt/1pt system. I think if you are being outplayed, playing for a tie is over-rewarded especially since we've made ties 50% easier this year.
Of their 10 ties, I'm too lazy to go check and see how often Williams was statistically dominant. But if I'm a coach, and I know my offense is... light, as Williams appeared all season (2 games where they scored more than twice, 6 games where they didn't score), then playing for a tie when equal or overmatched makes sense. As anemic as the #307 scoring offense in the country is, with 1.18 goals per game, I probably am not real interested in throwing players forward looking for a goal I'm unlikely to get even if I am the better team.
Fair enough. I just doubt Williams went into the season saying let's go get 10 draws. I picked the examples I did because they presumably had little to do with winning pct calculations as they were knockout games and in a couple of cases involved losing AQs, and of course in W Ct's case involved not being in the tournament. And why do Amherst and SLU have 5 draws, and many others 7 or more? It's also a pretty high-risk proposition....going for draws if in fact that is true means you're really chancing that you won't give up a fluke goal a few of those 10 times.
I know I played for a draw when I was younger. I know my coaches set up the team sometimes when outmatched to play for a draw. We see it in the professional leagues all the time.
Do you start the season aiming for 10 draws? No. But when you watch your team, and the tape on other teams, and you realize you have a very solid defense and a relatively anemic offense, then you hang back and look for a couple good opportunities to be aggressive, but you spend a lot more time neutral or defensive or playing negative instead of looking for the opening. You don't push forward as fast or as often, your players don't look to do it as much as habits settle in, and it gets harder and harder to push.
So you rack up the ties. And when ties are over-valued and easier to come by, the strategy is more effective. Do I think Williams started games with the intention to tie? No. But I think they started games knowing that defense was the priority and that scoring would either come or not, but the important thing was not to concede.
You can't lose if you don't concede... unless there are PKs... All season long, for a team in a conference that guarantees them a high SoS, racking up ties and losing only once got them in the tournament. Despite the fact that they hardly won (or scored).
There also was no way to know if having that many ties would be disqualifying....and clearly many believe that should be disqualifying, so it's just hard to buy that Williams had some super-secret strategy to snare a bid. That said, it seems perfectly legitimate to me to argue that 10 was disqualifying....just not sure that should be conflated with motivation.
On this spectrum, Chicago might be closer to Williams than to Messiah. Defense can be considered the foundation of a winning strategy, especially if relatively speaking one's defense is considered superior to one's offense.
I am only singling them out because on paper of the teams with the at large, the tie record is the most egregious! My point is that after seeing what they did this year in order to qualify - what's to stop other teams, including others in NESCAC from deploying a similar strategy? Schedule some top tier teams and park it for the tie. I love sorting through some stats so I'll help out:
Williams Ties
0-0 vs Springfield > Williams 13 shots - Springfield 11
1-1 vs Babson > Williams 7 - Babson 17 (6 of the 7 shots in first half where they had the lead)
2-2 vs Tufts > Williams 13 - Tufts 9
0-0 vs Colby > William 8 - Colby 3
0-0 vs Amherst > Williams 6 - Amherst 13 (Amherst got red card in 55th minute)
2-2 vs Wheaton > Williams 7 - Wheaton 15
1-1 vs Wesleyan > William 4 - Weselyan 12
0-0 vs Hamilton > Williams 20 - Hamilton 17 (Hamilton got red card in 53 minute)
1-1 vs Tufts > Williams 11 - Tufts 9
0-0 vs Conn College > Williams 15 - Conn College - 10
In these tie games Williams outshot their opponent 6 out 10 games (was really hoping this would've been a tie too!!!)
Interestingly each of the ties that goals were scored, Williams did score first in all but one - the conference tournament game vs Tufts.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 09, 2022, 04:14:18 PM
On this spectrum, Chicago might be closer to Williams than to Messiah. Defense can be considered the foundation of a winning strategy, especially if relatively speaking one's defense is considered superior to one's offense.
Nope. Messiah was the #1 ranked scoring offense (by a mile), UChicago 79th, Williams 307th. Williams isn't quite as close to dead last as Chicago is to first though if that helps you.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 09, 2022, 04:14:18 PM
On this spectrum, Chicago might be closer to Williams than to Messiah. Defense can be considered the foundation of a winning strategy, especially if relatively speaking one's defense is considered superior to one's offense.
Atletico Madrid vs. Paris St. Germain?
There are teams, ABSOLUTELY, that have an overall strategy of being cautious on offense and being lockdown, brutal defense.
At all levels, and D3 is certainly no exception. It's not that they go into games or a season with a desire for a ton of draws, but as has been pointed out... whether it's the overall philosophy of the coach, or the realization you don't have the horses up top to fly around... Lot's of team park the bus because that's playing the best odds to achieve a result.
In WC group play the first rule is to not lose which is closely correlated to not conceding, especially the first goal.
Williams has shown that that strategy works in D3 when a team has a strong SoS to as well. For this year, anyway.
Quote from: jknezek on November 09, 2022, 04:18:13 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 09, 2022, 04:14:18 PM
On this spectrum, Chicago might be closer to Williams than to Messiah. Defense can be considered the foundation of a winning strategy, especially if relatively speaking one's defense is considered superior to one's offense.
Nope. Messiah was the #1 ranked scoring offense (by a mile), UChicago 79th, Williams 307th. Williams isn't quite as close to dead last as Chicago is to first though if that helps you.
LOL, no, you described a defense first strategy. That's Chicago. Clearly Chicago is better, maybe much better, but they are focused on not allowing anyone to score first and foremost.
Again, I sort of get it, but just don't think this is all on Williams. What do we do with Hopkins that have SEVEN draws? They're hosting. Yes, they have more wins but also played three more games. And of all of Hopkins' 1-0 games how many of those could have been draws?
And the question about will other teams now adopt this "strategy" is a conflation pure and simple. Again, there was and will be no way to know if having a bunch of ties will be disqualifying. It's a confusion of outcome vs strategy and intent. There are other criteria as we know. And we also know that 10 ties in some conferences doesn't rate the same as 10 ties in others.
Quote from: jknezek on November 09, 2022, 04:18:13 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 09, 2022, 04:14:18 PM
On this spectrum, Chicago might be closer to Williams than to Messiah. Defense can be considered the foundation of a winning strategy, especially if relatively speaking one's defense is considered superior to one's offense.
Nope. Messiah was the #1 ranked scoring offense (by a mile), UChicago 79th, Williams 307th. Williams isn't quite as close to dead last as Chicago is to first though if that helps you.
That's not what I meant by spectrum but OK.
Quote from: Planters Nuts on November 09, 2022, 04:17:03 PM
I am only singling them out because on paper of the teams with the at large, the tie record is the most egregious! My point is that after seeing what they did this year in order to qualify - what's to stop other teams, including others in NESCAC from deploying a similar strategy? Schedule some top tier teams and park it for the tie. I love sorting through some stats so I'll help out:
Williams Ties
0-0 vs Springfield > Williams 13 shots - Springfield 11
1-1 vs Babson > Williams 7 - Babson 17 (6 of the 7 shots in first half where they had the lead)
2-2 vs Tufts > Williams 13 - Tufts 9
0-0 vs Colby > William 8 - Colby 3
0-0 vs Amherst > Williams 6 - Amherst 13 (Amherst got red card in 55th minute)
2-2 vs Wheaton > Williams 7 - Wheaton 15
1-1 vs Wesleyan > William 4 - Weselyan 12
0-0 vs Hamilton > Williams 20 - Hamilton 17 (Hamilton got red card in 53 minute)
1-1 vs Tufts > Williams 11 - Tufts 9
0-0 vs Conn College > Williams 15 - Conn College - 10
In these tie games Williams outshot their opponent 6 out 10 games (was really hoping this would've been a tie too!!!)
Interestingly each of the ties that goals were scored, Williams did score first in all but one - the conference tournament game vs Tufts.
Do you think NYU and CMU are more deserving of a spot than Williams?
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 09, 2022, 04:23:19 PM
There are teams, ABSOLUTELY, that have an overall strategy of being cautious on offense and being lockdown, brutal defense.
At all levels, and D3 is certainly no exception. It's not that they go into games or a season with a desire for a ton of draws, but as has been pointed out... whether it's the overall philosophy of the coach, or the realization you don't have the horses up top to fly around... Lot's of team park the bus because that's playing the best odds to achieve a result.
Agreed. Horses up front, very much lacking in D3. Also in many cases, not necessary in this new D3 environment. A lot easier playing decent defense and eking out a win or tie. In part, one can argue that the NCAA set up this scenario as it is not allowing OT in the regular season. Large bus parking lots around the country.
FYI, son's former club teammates at Navy are in its league final with a record of 6-4-9. At the end of the season, they were 4th (3-1-5 in conference) in the conference. May be the first time a team with 9 or even 10 ties makes the D1 tournament. They are actually playing the 6th seed in the final. So not all D3.
Good efficient strikers are rare among players that have been heavily coached, players develop those skills on playgrounds in informal settings, so draws will be a major part of the game here. Scoreless draws and 1-0 results!
On paper I would say NYU has the edge over Williams. I am certainly appreciative in the different views presented here but respectfully, almost no amount of reasoning will ever convince me that WestConn sitting at home right now isn't criminal conduct by the NCAA Committee and powers that be.
Sure they had a couple 'cupcake' teams on the schedule but they didn't play nobody's. An undefeated team is sitting at home scratching their heads wondering what all their hard work this year meant. I did not watch their conference final and I fully understand they should've taken care of business, but that doesn't mean one blemish in PKS in 22 games should have you sitting out at home. They didn't lose a single game and yet they were even a discussion by the committee! Yikes.
Quote from: Planters Nuts on November 09, 2022, 05:21:03 PM
On paper I would say NYU has the edge over Williams. I am certainly appreciative in the different views presented here but respectfully, almost no amount of reasoning will ever convince me that WestConn sitting at home right now isn't criminal conduct by the NCAA Committee and powers that be.
Sure they had a couple 'cupcake' teams on the schedule but they didn't play nobody's. An undefeated team is sitting at home scratching their heads wondering what all their hard work this year meant. I did not watch their conference final and I fully understand they should've taken care of business, but that doesn't mean one blemish in PKS in 22 games should have you sitting out at home. They didn't lose a single game and yet they were even a discussion by the committee! Yikes.
No one (or at least almost no one) here disagrees with you about W CT.
Did anyone else watch Westconn play this season? I started taking my kids about 4 years ago to get around to notable college games throughout CT. It's a shame they weren't able to showcase themselves in the national level. I can't even imagine what that locker room and coaches office must feel like these last few days.
It's interesting that the sentiment now after the fact seems to be nearly 100% in W CT's favor. A week or so before the selections no one was actually predicting a bid for them. I borderline endorsed a bid around that time and got a reply that presumed I was joking.
Not saying this was the intent, but the cmte inserting W CT in the rankings week 3 was a bit of tease, opening the door just enough to think W CT might jump Hamilton. Not many actually seemed to think that would happen. But now after the fact we're all aghast.
Jknezek and I were commenting on the W CT rank situation since the first regional rankings. I still get the impression that the committee were hedging their bets with the parity in NESCAC by trying to jam as many NESCACs in as possible assuming W CT would get the AQ and then they got into a situation where W CT had been under ranked throughout and they didn't feel like there was enough to jump them up the couple of spots they should have been in the final rankings.
That might be plausible, but the same committee showed no hesitation in rearranging the other NESCACs with a lot of movement between weeks 3 and 4.
Quote from: paclassic89 on November 09, 2022, 07:11:47 PM
Jknezek and I were commenting on the W CT rank situation since the first regional rankings. I still get the impression that the committee were hedging their bets with the parity in NESCAC by trying to jam as many NESCACs in as possible assuming W CT would get the AQ and then they got into a situation where W CT had been under ranked throughout and they didn't feel like there was enough to jump them up the couple of spots they should have been in the final rankings.
You're right. My apologies. I do remember that. I was probably mostly thinking of my Chicago friend @4samuy....
From 11/5...
Quote from: 4samuy on November 05, 2022, 07:25:02 PM
Pn,
I haven't seen to this point that anyone has put them in the conversation to be included in the tournament. I may have missed something but Imho they have no shot without the auto bid. Not a chance. They will come up to the table in round 75. Now that's being facetious. Knowing you I'm pretty sure your being facetious as well.
Few minutes later...
Quote from: 4samuy on November 05, 2022, 07:34:26 PM
Wow, I guess facetious may have been the wrong word. Imho there is no way they have a chance. They won't jump anyone in region 1. It was get the aq or bust. Other than winning percentage, NOTHING works in their favor.
This is probably a FW question....
Has any LEC team ever gotten an at-large bid in the history of the tournament? Of course one might also ask if any LEC team previously has been 20-0-2.
I'm guessing NO to the first question...unless maybe Keene State back in the day or maybe ECSU.
Pn,
I admittadly mentioned that facetious may be the wrong word. Also I prefaced my statements with IMHO. These boards are all about opinions and also facts. No disrespect was intended what so ever :)but through the years following d3 soccer and d3 basketball IMO I've developed a pretty good idea as to how the committee (regional or national) work and think and IMHO at the time is that west conn was not going to jump Hamilton, undefeated season or not. As I mentioned, imho it was going to win conference tournament or bust. :)
I also mentioned on one of the boards that it was sad the west conn didn't make the tournament, but I'm too tired to go back and find the board.
Yankeesoccerdad, here ya go...One of your best bets is to stick around for Babson-Vassar...and bring your phone and a burner phone so you can do live stats or video with your phone and then tune in if there's an upset alert or big game of interest...
Friday is easy...just two games...Depending on the outcome the 1:00 game on Saturday could be one of the games of the tournament...
Rest of Saturday 1st round action...all times Eastern...
10:00 -- Aurora @ GAC -- Upset alert....Aurora drew with both Calvin and North Central so shouldn't be awed
1:00 -- St Joseph (CT) @ F&M -- For whatever reason I feeling an upset alert
1:30 -- Roger Williams-SLU -- After all the banter on the board sort of a must-see
1:30 -- Rose Hulman-North Park -- Could be over first 30 minutes but if level at the half potential for upset alert
1:30 -- UMass-Boston-Tufts -- Pure entertainment value...for neutrals
1:30 -- Vassar-Babson -- Hope this matches the hype...would be a shame if Vassar doesn't show well
2:30 -- Luther-UWEC -- UWEC is a great story and have a shot at a run to Sweet 16 but Luther wants some respect
3:30 -- Rowan- Midd -- One of the can't miss games in round 1
3:30 -- Catholic-Lynchburg -- Should be competitive match but might be....a little boring?
3:30 -- NYU-Williams -- Might end up being better game than Rowan-Midd
6:30 -- UW-P-Will-AM-et -- Chance for East Coast to see what these teams are like
6:30 -- Pac Luth-MHB -- Same and maybe (just guessing really) the more open, exciting one of the two 6:30 clashes
Quote from: 4samuy on November 09, 2022, 07:58:43 PM
Pn,
I admittadly mentioned that facetious may be the wrong word. Also I prefaced my statements with IMHO. These boards are all about opinions and also facts. No disrespect was intended what so ever :)but through the years following d3 soccer and d3 basketball IMO I've developed a pretty good idea as to how the committee (regional or national) work and think and IMHO at the time is that west conn was not going to jump Hamilton, undefeated season or not. As I mentioned, imho it was going to win conference tournament or bust. :)
I also mentioned on one of the boards that it was sad the west conn didn't make the tournament, but I'm too tired to go back and find the board.
I didn't mean it the way you're taking it. At the time I probably agreed with you and I know you were not alone. That was the prevailing take....not that they didn't deserve but that a Pool C would be a bit of a reach even if a lot of us disagreed.
Quote from: Planters Nuts on November 09, 2022, 06:23:28 PM
Did anyone else watch Westconn play this season? I started taking my kids about 4 years ago to get around to notable college games throughout CT. It's a shame they weren't able to showcase themselves in the national level. I can't even imagine what that locker room and coaches office must feel like these last few days.
I saw West Conn play a couple times and I can tell you they would not make the NESCAC tournament if they competed in that league. Definitely not as good as Conn or Colby and maybe not Bates. They did beat Trinity at home but it was 1-1 late in the game and 2-1 until a last second goal. I actually think they deserved a bid on results but not on pure quality. They played only 2 regionally ranked teams all year. Win the conf tournament if you play in a weak conference and that conference is weak compared to other 2+ bid conferences.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 09, 2022, 08:09:38 PM
Yankeesoccerdad, here ya go...One of your best bets is to stick around for Babson-Vassar...and bring your phone and a burner phone so you can do live stats or video with your phone and then tune in if there's an upset alert or big game of interest...
Friday is easy...just two games...Depending on the outcome the 1:00 game on Saturday could be one of the games of the tournament...
Rest of Saturday 1st round action...all times Eastern...
10:00 -- Aurora @ GAC -- Upset alert....Aurora drew with both Calvin and North Central so shouldn't be awed
1:00 -- St Joseph (CT) @ F&M -- For whatever reason I feeling an upset alert
1:30 -- Roger Williams-SLU -- After all the banter on the board sort of a must-see
1:30 -- Rose Hulman-North Park -- Could be over first 30 minutes but if level at the half potential for upset alert
1:30 -- UMass-Boston-Tufts -- Pure entertainment value...for neutrals
1:30 -- Vassar-Babson -- Hope this matches the hype...would be a shame if Vassar doesn't show well
2:30 -- Luther-UWEC -- UWEC is a great story and have a shot at a run to Sweet 16 but Luther wants some respect
3:30 -- Rowan- Midd -- One of the can't miss games in round 1
3:30 -- Catholic-Lynchburg -- Should be competitive match but might be....a little boring?
3:30 -- NYU-Williams -- Might end up being better game than Rowan-Midd
6:30 -- UW-P-Will-AM-et -- Chance for East Coast to see what these teams are like
6:30 -- Pac Luth-MHB -- Same and maybe (just guessing really) the more open, exciting one of the two 6:30 clashes
PN, I knew you would not disappoint! Paul Finebaum of d3 soccer.
(https://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/paul-finebaum-1-1.jpg)
LOL! That is hilarious.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 09, 2022, 07:36:52 PM
Has any LEC team ever gotten an at-large bid in the history of the tournament? Of course one might also ask if any LEC team previously has been 20-0-2.
I'm guessing NO to the first question...unless maybe Keene State back in the day or maybe ECSU.
POOL C AT-LARGE BERTHS (2008-2022)
| Conference | Berths | Most Recent |
| UAA | 39 | 2022 |
| NESCAC | 36 | 2022 |
| Centennial | 26 | 2022 |
| NJAC | 20 | 2021 |
| NCAC | 17 | 2022 |
| SUNYAC | 13 | 2022 |
| Liberty | 12 | 2022 |
| MIAC | 11 | 2022 |
| NEWMAC | 10 | 2019 |
| OAC | 9 | 2022 |
| ARC / IIAC | 8 | 2019 |
| C2C / CAC | 8 | 2022 |
| CCIW | 7 | 2022 |
| Landmark | 6 | 2022 |
| ODAC | 6 | 2022 |
| MIAA | 5 | 2021 |
| SCAC | 5 | 2019 |
| ASC | 3 | 2017 |
| MAC Commonw'lth | 3 | 2018 |
| MAC Freedom | 3 | 2013 |
| SCIAC | 3 | 2016 |
| CCC | 2 | 2013 |
| USA South | 2 | 2012 |
| WIAC | 2 | 2015 |
| Empire 8 | 1 | 2008 |
| LEC | 1 | 2010 |
| NACC | 1 | 2014 |
| NWC | 1 | 2022 |
| Presidents' | 1 | 2015 |
| SAA | 1 | 2019 |
| AEC | 0 | -- |
| AMCC | 0 | -- |
| CCS | 0 | -- |
| CSAC | 0 | -- |
| CUNYAC | 0 | -- |
| GNAC | 0 | -- |
| HCAC | 0 | -- |
| Independent | 0 | -- |
| MASCAC | 0 | -- |
| MWC | 0 | -- |
| NAC | 0 | -- |
| NECC | 0 | -- |
| Skyline | 0 | -- |
| SLIAC | 0 | -- |
| UEC / NEAC | 0 | -- |
| UMAC | 0 | -- |
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 09, 2022, 07:36:52 PM
Has any LEC team ever gotten an at-large bid in the history of the tournament? Of course one might also ask if any LEC team previously has been 20-0-2.
I'm guessing NO to the first question...unless maybe Keene State back in the day or maybe ECSU.
So, the answer is YES. In 2010, Eastern Connecticut St. (13-3-3 pre-NCAA's) received a Pool C at-large berth with Keene St. (14-4-2 pre-NCAA's) winning the conference tournament and AQ as the #1 seed. Eastern Connecticut was ranked #6 in the NCAA Regional Rankings for New England, behind four NESCAC teams and Babson. Keene St was ranked #12.
Wow...with Cristan's help found other stories behind the stories.
Keene St and ECSU finished at the top of the LEC that year. The semis were wild. ECSU "lost" in PKs to RIC in one semi, and Keene beat UMass-Dartmouth, TWICE. Yes, twice. UMass-Dartmouth apparently had a successful challenge of a goal in their first semi, which led to them playing a fresh 90 minutes. I don't remember that at all but I do recall Keene going down to Muhlenberg and losing 1st round 2-0 because kid from our high school played for Keene and his family was begging me to watch the game on livestream which I'm pretty sure I had never used before.
Here's what Keene coach Butcher said after Keene prevailed in conference tourney, beating RIC in the final...
The victory gives Keene State (14-4-2) its sixth Little East Tournament title and its first crown since 2006. Rhode Island College, which won the LEC championship in 2008, goes to 10-7-2. The Owls will find out about their NCAA tournament opponent later tonight. KSC will bring a six game winning streak into the NCAAs.
The Owls won the championship the hard way, having to replay their semifinal game against UMass-Dartmouth after the Corsairs protested a goal in their first meeting. "Playing three 90 minute games in five days really takes a toll on you," said Sisco. "This week has been super emotional and been a real test of our togetherness as a team."
"Everybody said you can't do it, but people don't' understand this team," said Butcher. "We may be short in some places or lacking a little bit of talent, but we never stop running. And they believed in themselves. We could see before the game that they were going to persevere."
So ECSU got an at-large, beat Nichols in the 1st round and lost at Bowdoin to Bowdoin 2-1 in the 2nd round.
And oddly enough a couple of weeks ago I was thinking about Keene and how to my knowledge they are one of only two D3 teams named the Owls.
Now the great thing about this board is that Sager or FW within the next half-hour will list four other D3s that are Owls lol.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 10, 2022, 08:17:14 AM
And oddly enough a couple of weeks ago I was thinking about Keene and how to my knowledge they are one of only two D3 teams named the Owls.
Now the great thing about this board is that Sager or FW within the next half-hour will list four other D3s that are Owls lol.
And how the heck did Ohio Northern come up with the Polar Bears as their mascot? Bowdoin came by their mascot name quite legitimately:
The Peary–MacMillan Arctic Museum is a museum located in Hubbard Hall at Bowdoin College in Brunswick, Maine. Named after Arctic explorers and Bowdoin College graduates Robert E. Peary and Donald B. MacMillan, it is the only museum in the lower 48 states of the United States dedicated completely to Arctic Studies.
On a related note...when players, coaches, family members and fans traveled down to San Antonio for the Final Four in 2010...Bowdoin played Lynchburg in one semi. Some of the Bowdoin moms were wearing these cute furry polar bear hats with ear flaps in the 80+ degree heat. Some local middle school kids got out of school to come to the game, and the moms loaned them their hats. It was great to see these young Texas kids, many of them Hispanic, wearing these polar bear hats and having a great time!
Follow on Christian Shirk's post and how to increase a league's exposure to possible multiple entries in the NCAAs.
According to the post ODAC has 6 Pool C bids. Recently, as W&L won the ODAC and Lynchburg performed reasonably well, Lynchburg/ODAC earned one of those bids. Before this year, W&L earned 3 of these C bids during Mike Singleton's 9 year tenure (7 times in the NCAA's- only his first year and the COVID year did they not appear) and Roanoke earned one in 2019 when W&L won the ODAC. I am not sure about the one other time. Only once, 2018, did W&L lose in the first round to Hopkins in pks.
Mostly, before Singleton arrived at W&L, ODAC only ever sent its champ to the NCAAs except for one time. Now, ODAC consistently sends two. When Singleton arrived, W&L began scheduling difficult non-conf. games. Two years into his time, W&L won the ODACs and made the second round of NCAAs. The third year of Singleton, which most likely is when he was able to more fully schedule his non-conf. games. W&L went 13-4-2 with ties against F&M and wins against Emory and CNU. They lost Lynchburg in the ODAC final. This year they earned a Pool C bid and made to the Sweet 16. In 2016, they won their 1st round game against St. Law. Prior to 2016 and in its entire history, W&L had only made it the NCAAs twice (2000 and 1989).
So, one can argue, that by stepping up its non-conf. schedule and winning a few games in the NCAAs, W&L (along with high performing ODAC teams) is now consistently sending two to the NCAAs as it has impressed Pool C officials. Further, W&L going to the round of 16 in 2019 and semis last year, this may continue for ODAC and W&L.
There might be other examples of this out there, but am not aware. I was on the W&L team under the previous coach back in the mid 80's.
Man... between AnotherMom, Bucket (alum I believe though more involved with the NESCAC now), SierraFD3soccer and myself, I'm feeling like W&L is well represented with participation on the soccer forum. I have carried the load, mostly on the football boards but generally across all the sports, for more than a decade.
And yes, I agree with Sierra's post. Coach Singleton changed the direction, focus, and success of the program in a myriad of ways, but scheduling and challenging the players seems to have been a significant factor. I loved Coach P., he did right by me and I've told the story several times. But Coach S. has turned the program from a consistent ODAC competitor to a consistent regional competitor and, if we can follow on from last year for a few more years, I'm hopeful for a consistent national competitor.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 09, 2022, 07:02:59 PM
It's interesting that the sentiment now after the fact seems to be nearly 100% in W CT's favor. A week or so before the selections no one was actually predicting a bid for them. I borderline endorsed a bid around that time and got a reply that presumed I was joking.
Not saying this was the intent, but the cmte inserting W CT in the rankings week 3 was a bit of tease, opening the door just enough to think W CT might jump Hamilton. Not many actually seemed to think that would happen. But now after the fact we're all aghast.
I think I was pretty clear when the regional rankings came out that I didn't think W Conn was going to make the tourney as a pool C. Whether or not its fair is hard to say. Winning 20 games is impressive, but who knows if they would have done so against better competition. Their situation is similar to the St. Joes teams of a few years ago. We ultimately played them in the tourney one year, (a 0-0 tie) and I would say they were about the level of a Colby or Bates that would finish 8th or 9th in the NESCAC.
I know Tufts struggled to find a 15th team to play this year which is why they ended up having to go play at UMaine Farmington. Maybe W Conn could set up a home and away with Tufts. It would be a fairly easy trip for both teams.
Quote from: jknezek on November 10, 2022, 09:29:04 AM
Man... between AnotherMom, Bucket (alum I believe though more involved with the NESCAC now), SierraFD3soccer and myself, I'm feeling like W&L is well represented with participation on the soccer forum. I have carried the load, mostly on the football boards but generally across all the sports, for more than a decade.
And yes, I agree with Sierra's post. Coach Singleton changed the direction, focus, and success of the program in a myriad of ways, but scheduling and challenging the players seems to have been a significant factor. I loved Coach P., he did right by me and I've told the story several times. But Coach S. has turned the program from a consistent ODAC competitor to a consistent regional competitor and, if we can follow on from last year for a few more years, I'm hopeful for a consistent national competitor.
Absolutely. I did leave out an element that is very important in my mind. W&L being flush with money. Without W&L being willing to pay for the travel of the team and recruitment trips for the coaches, the team probably would not be where it is as well. Further, W&L being a top ranked academic college also contributes to its success.
Funny also, that one of W&L's first big non-conf. games was F&M where my son currently plays. He actually got in ED to W&L, but we could not afford the $70K plus (now over 80K) per year with two younger kids. This is all another sad story and he would have loved to play for Singleton. Fortunately, he has had a successful career.
As to Coach Piranian, he gave me a shot. PTBAG
Quote from: regularguy on November 09, 2022, 02:12:17 PM
hey all - i knew last year someone created a bracket, but haven't seen it yet. i went ahead and created a pool for this season, feel free to join here.
https://www.runyourpool.com/p/j/8da271f5b60243f586c393ea94dc3b62
let me know if you have any thoughts or questions!
This needs more folks!! There are 12 in there right now... It's a really nice platform, just fyi.
Quote from: MNBob on November 07, 2022, 03:14:07 PM
Quote from: EnmoreCat on November 07, 2022, 03:09:44 PM
Is there seeding in this and if so, is it done on regional rankings? And not knowing the geography all that well, at what stage could teams have to travel long distances, i.e. fly for a game?
The team listed first for each game is considered the favorite, higher seed, right?
No one ever responded to this... I think so?
When you look at Massey, there are two instances where the team listed first is not ranked higher in Massey: MHB (30) v. Pac Lu (20) and Rowan (42) v. Middlebury (5).
But in most other cases, it does appear the "favored" team is listed first. (Tough to really say with Williams and NYU, for example, where they're only 5 spots apart in Massey, and likely just as close from the committee's view point.)
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 10, 2022, 08:17:14 AM
And oddly enough a couple of weeks ago I was thinking about Keene and how to my knowledge they are one of only two D3 teams named the Owls.
Now the great thing about this board is that Sager or FW within the next half-hour will list four other D3s that are Owls lol.
Keene State
Kenyon
UMPI
Rowan
Westfield State
That's the five D3 schools nicknamed Owls.
Sorry that I didn't meet the deadline, but I just logged in. ;)
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 10, 2022, 10:10:55 AM
Quote from: regularguy on November 09, 2022, 02:12:17 PM
hey all - i knew last year someone created a bracket, but haven't seen it yet. i went ahead and created a pool for this season, feel free to join here.
https://www.runyourpool.com/p/j/8da271f5b60243f586c393ea94dc3b62
let me know if you have any thoughts or questions!
This needs more folks!! There are 12 in there right now... It's a really nice platform, just fyi.
Done.
Quote from: northman on November 10, 2022, 08:39:19 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 10, 2022, 08:17:14 AM
And oddly enough a couple of weeks ago I was thinking about Keene and how to my knowledge they are one of only two D3 teams named the Owls.
Now the great thing about this board is that Sager or FW within the next half-hour will list four other D3s that are Owls lol.
And how the heck did Ohio Northern come up with the Polar Bears as their mascot?
Here's how. (https://northernreview.org/2020/11/05/our-beloved-bear-onu-history-beat-2/#:~:text=Its%20coat%20of%20white%20stands,mascot%20will%20be%20our%20guide.%E2%80%9D)
Quote from: d4_Pace on November 10, 2022, 10:06:47 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 09, 2022, 07:02:59 PM
It's interesting that the sentiment now after the fact seems to be nearly 100% in W CT's favor. A week or so before the selections no one was actually predicting a bid for them. I borderline endorsed a bid around that time and got a reply that presumed I was joking.
Not saying this was the intent, but the cmte inserting W CT in the rankings week 3 was a bit of tease, opening the door just enough to think W CT might jump Hamilton. Not many actually seemed to think that would happen. But now after the fact we're all aghast.
I think I was pretty clear when the regional rankings came out that I didn't think W Conn was going to make the tourney as a pool C. Whether or not its fair is hard to say. Winning 20 games is impressive, but who knows if they would have done so against better competition. Their situation is similar to the St. Joes teams of a few years ago. We ultimately played them in the tourney one year, (a 0-0 tie) and I would say they were about the level of a Colby or Bates that would finish 8th or 9th in the NESCAC.
I know Tufts struggled to find a 15th team to play this year which is why they ended up having to go play at UMaine Farmington. Maybe W Conn could set up a home and away with Tufts. It would be a fairly easy trip for both teams.
We do know how they would have done against better competition. The short answer is...not as well. The key, then, is to what extent a situation like there's should come down to that. Should they have to be at a level where they would finish top 5 in NESCAC? This is where some would say teams like that just need to go win their AQ. Others of us think there should be room for teams like W CT regardless of how we believe they might have fared against a schedule laced with several heavyweights.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 10, 2022, 10:28:41 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 10, 2022, 08:17:14 AM
And oddly enough a couple of weeks ago I was thinking about Keene and how to my knowledge they are one of only two D3 teams named the Owls.
Now the great thing about this board is that Sager or FW within the next half-hour will list four other D3s that are Owls lol.
Keene State
Kenyon
UMPI
Rowan
Westfield State
That's the five D3 schools nicknamed Owls.
Sorry that I didn't meet the deadline, but I just logged in. ;)
I knew it! Hahahahahahahahahahaha.....as my kids would say.
Ideal places to grow an outstanding and sustainably outstanding soccer program is a really interesting one. I know SC finds this interesting and believes that many, many schools could grow solid to very good programs with the right mix of ingredients. Some schools obviously are easy to identify as providing a great opportunity in this regard....and two that come to mind immediately especially in recent years are W&L and Denison...both with huge attractiveness and money. It's actually maybe more surprising that these schools weren't consistently stronger for years before the last half-decade or so. I especially wonder about W&L pre-Singleton because it seems that Coach P was a great coach and very beloved. I had a classmate at Davidson (talking class of '81) who talked about almost going to W&L because of Coach P. We've debated to what extent high academics is a recruiting plus or too limiting in terms of a recruitment pool, but without going deep down that road let it suffice to say that high end academics and highly selective admissions have not prevented great success at Williams, Amherst, Chicago, Bowdoin, Midd, Hopkins, Tufts, etc, etc.
I think many of us believe an outstanding coach who can envision a place being more than a placeholder while working one's way up for a "better" job makes a huge difference. I'll use Emerson as a hypothetical since I don't actually know the details. But it seems possible Harkin (came from Tufts and left Emerson to be an asst with Shapiro again at Harvard) maybe didn't view Emerson as a place where it might be possible to build a competitive program. And it's way too early to conclude based on this past year's success whether Emerson has the resources to take that kind of step. But my thesis anyway is that a coach has to first see potential to build something (like at Denison where I think Bianco saw Denison as a destination job where there was a very good chance with the right vision and management to build something really good). The coach needs to stay for a while or at least have a pipeline that continues what one started, but once a school starts having some success, a better reputation for soccer gets planted, and as progress continues a smart coach figures out what the school has going for it in general to promote and highlight for recruits....and maybe eventually getting to a point where the overall recruiting pool thinks of that school as a very interesting and attractive place to consider.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 10, 2022, 11:01:17 AM
Ideal places to grow an outstanding and sustainably outstanding soccer program is a really interesting one. I know SC finds this interesting and believes that many, many schools could grow solid to very good programs with the right mix of ingredients. Some schools obviously are easy to identify as providing a great opportunity in this regard....and two that come to mind immediately especially in recent years are W&L and Denison...both with huge attractiveness and money. It's actually maybe more surprising that these schools weren't consistently stronger for years before the last half-decade or so. I especially wonder about W&L pre-Singleton because it seems that Coach P was a great coach and very beloved. I had a classmate at Davidson (talking class of '81) who talked about almost going to W&L because of Coach P. We've debated to what extent high academics is a recruiting plus or too limiting in terms of a recruitment pool, but without going deep down that road let it suffice to say that high end academics and highly selective admissions have not prevented great success at Williams, Amherst, Chicago, Bowdoin, Midd, Hopkins, Tufts, etc, etc.
I think many of us believe an outstanding coach who can envision a place being more than a placeholder while working one's way up for a "better" job makes a huge difference. I'll use Emerson as a hypothetical since I don't actually know the details. But it seems possible Harkin (came from Tufts and left Emerson to be an asst with Shapiro again at Harvard) maybe didn't view Emerson as a place where it might be possible to build a competitive program. And it's way too early to conclude based on this past year's success whether Emerson has the resources to take that kind of step. But my thesis anyway is that a coach has to first see potential to build something (like at Denison where I think Bianco saw Denison as a destination job where there was a very good chance with the right vision and management to build something really good). The coach needs to stay for a while or at least have a pipeline that continues what one started, but once a school starts having some success, a better reputation for soccer gets planted, and as progress continues a smart coach figures out what the school has going for it in general to promote and highlight for recruits....and maybe eventually getting to a point where the overall recruiting pool thinks of that school as a very interesting and attractive place to consider.
Coach P started at W&L in 1976. He was one of the longest tenured coaches when I was there in the mid 90s, and he stayed through the 2013 season. He was from a different generation at W&L, when athletics, with the exception of Men's Lax, were an offering to attract students, but athletic success was more "are you competitive in the conference because that's all we need." He took over a team that was not very good and turned it into a team that was competitive. In his first 10 seasons, he was over .500 only 3 times. Over the next 28 seasons, he was only under .500 only 6x. Finished with a 313-242-56 (.558) record.
It's also important to remember that W&L's facilities were... not good until a mid 90s plan was put in the place that started with building an indoor tennis center and upgrading locker rooms at the football field and then ballooned into essentially replacing or rebuilding EVERYTHING over 25 years. That program has finally slowed down after the completion of the new swimming/diving center and gutting and rebuilding of the indoor sports facility. But during many of Coach P's years, W&L's soccer facilities (and other sports) were subpar at best.
What's funny about the facilities thing... We played at W&L somewhere in the '88-'91 timeframe, and I've mentioned it before, that was the nicest grass field I'd ever played on. Was that just a weird outlier? I don't even remember going into a locker room, now that I think about it...
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 10, 2022, 10:40:46 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 10, 2022, 10:28:41 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 10, 2022, 08:17:14 AM
And oddly enough a couple of weeks ago I was thinking about Keene and how to my knowledge they are one of only two D3 teams named the Owls.
Now the great thing about this board is that Sager or FW within the next half-hour will list four other D3s that are Owls lol.
Keene State
Kenyon
UMPI
Rowan
Westfield State
That's the five D3 schools nicknamed Owls.
Sorry that I didn't meet the deadline, but I just logged in. ;)
I knew it! Hahahahahahahahahahaha.....as my kids would say.
Rowan is the Profs. The logo is an owl, but that's not the nickname.
Quote from: jknezek on November 10, 2022, 11:27:32 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 10, 2022, 11:01:17 AM
Ideal places to grow an outstanding and sustainably outstanding soccer program is a really interesting one. I know SC finds this interesting and believes that many, many schools could grow solid to very good programs with the right mix of ingredients. Some schools obviously are easy to identify as providing a great opportunity in this regard....and two that come to mind immediately especially in recent years are W&L and Denison...both with huge attractiveness and money. It's actually maybe more surprising that these schools weren't consistently stronger for years before the last half-decade or so. I especially wonder about W&L pre-Singleton because it seems that Coach P was a great coach and very beloved. I had a classmate at Davidson (talking class of '81) who talked about almost going to W&L because of Coach P. We've debated to what extent high academics is a recruiting plus or too limiting in terms of a recruitment pool, but without going deep down that road let it suffice to say that high end academics and highly selective admissions have not prevented great success at Williams, Amherst, Chicago, Bowdoin, Midd, Hopkins, Tufts, etc, etc.
I think many of us believe an outstanding coach who can envision a place being more than a placeholder while working one's way up for a "better" job makes a huge difference. I'll use Emerson as a hypothetical since I don't actually know the details. But it seems possible Harkin (came from Tufts and left Emerson to be an asst with Shapiro again at Harvard) maybe didn't view Emerson as a place where it might be possible to build a competitive program. And it's way too early to conclude based on this past year's success whether Emerson has the resources to take that kind of step. But my thesis anyway is that a coach has to first see potential to build something (like at Denison where I think Bianco saw Denison as a destination job where there was a very good chance with the right vision and management to build something really good). The coach needs to stay for a while or at least have a pipeline that continues what one started, but once a school starts having some success, a better reputation for soccer gets planted, and as progress continues a smart coach figures out what the school has going for it in general to promote and highlight for recruits....and maybe eventually getting to a point where the overall recruiting pool thinks of that school as a very interesting and attractive place to consider.
Coach P started at W&L in 1976. He was one of the longest tenured coaches when I was there in the mid 90s, and he stayed through the 2013 season. He was from a different generation at W&L, when athletics, with the exception of Men's Lax, were an offering to attract students, but athletic success was more "are you competitive in the conference because that's all we need." He took over a team that was not very good and turned it into a team that was competitive. In his first 10 seasons, he was over .500 only 3 times. Over the next 28 seasons, he was only under .500 only 6x. Finished with a 313-242-56 (.558) record.
It's also important to remember that W&L's facilities were... not good until a mid 90s plan was put in the place that started with building an indoor tennis center and upgrading locker rooms at the football field and then ballooned into essentially replacing or rebuilding EVERYTHING over 25 years. That program has finally slowed down after the completion of the new swimming/diving center and gutting and rebuilding of the indoor sports facility. But during many of Coach P's years, W&L's soccer facilities (and other sports) were subpar at best.
I was at W&L—with my soccer playing buddies—from '89 to '93. Best buddy is still in the record books, tho no longer the record holder, for career assists.
However I've known Rolf since he arrived in '76; my dad was a journalism prof and I was a townie. Rolf started the youth soccer program in Lex, and most memorable moment as a kid was when he brought Pele to town.
Fond memories!
I knew Rowan was the Profs...but I also knew there was something with Rowan and owls....is the idea that Profs and owls are both "wise"?
I'm surprised that at least a few of the SAA schools aren't consistently better.
Quote from: Caz Bombers on November 10, 2022, 11:34:00 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 10, 2022, 10:40:46 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 10, 2022, 10:28:41 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 10, 2022, 08:17:14 AM
And oddly enough a couple of weeks ago I was thinking about Keene and how to my knowledge they are one of only two D3 teams named the Owls.
Now the great thing about this board is that Sager or FW within the next half-hour will list four other D3s that are Owls lol.
Keene State
Kenyon
UMPI
Rowan
Westfield State
That's the five D3 schools nicknamed Owls.
Sorry that I didn't meet the deadline, but I just logged in. ;)
I knew it! Hahahahahahahahahahaha.....as my kids would say.
Rowan is the Profs. The logo is an owl, but that's not the nickname.
Yeah, you're right. Forgot about that. My bad.
That could start a whole new thread: Schools whose mascot is different than the nickname.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 10, 2022, 11:01:17 AM
Ideal places to grow an outstanding and sustainably outstanding soccer program is a really interesting one. I know SC finds this interesting and believes that many, many schools could grow solid to very good programs with the right mix of ingredients. Some schools obviously are easy to identify as providing a great opportunity in this regard....and two that come to mind immediately especially in recent years are W&L and Denison...both with huge attractiveness and money. It's actually maybe more surprising that these schools weren't consistently stronger for years before the last half-decade or so. I especially wonder about W&L pre-Singleton because it seems that Coach P was a great coach and very beloved. I had a classmate at Davidson (talking class of '81) who talked about almost going to W&L because of Coach P. We've debated to what extent high academics is a recruiting plus or too limiting in terms of a recruitment pool, but without going deep down that road let it suffice to say that high end academics and highly selective admissions have not prevented great success at Williams, Amherst, Chicago, Bowdoin, Midd, Hopkins, Tufts, etc, etc.
I think many of us believe an outstanding coach who can envision a place being more than a placeholder while working one's way up for a "better" job makes a huge difference. I'll use Emerson as a hypothetical since I don't actually know the details. But it seems possible Harkin (came from Tufts and left Emerson to be an asst with Shapiro again at Harvard) maybe didn't view Emerson as a place where it might be possible to build a competitive program. And it's way too early to conclude based on this past year's success whether Emerson has the resources to take that kind of step. But my thesis anyway is that a coach has to first see potential to build something (like at Denison where I think Bianco saw Denison as a destination job where there was a very good chance with the right vision and management to build something really good). The coach needs to stay for a while or at least have a pipeline that continues what one started, but once a school starts having some success, a better reputation for soccer gets planted, and as progress continues a smart coach figures out what the school has going for it in general to promote and highlight for recruits....and maybe eventually getting to a point where the overall recruiting pool thinks of that school as a very interesting and attractive place to consider.
This is a really interesting topic to me. I will use the example of Catholic since I'm most familiar with the program. The head coach Travis Beauchamp has been there for 16 years and has taken the program from a nobody to a perennial Landmark favorite and can almost be considered a regular in the ncaa tournament. As an alum, I've wondered what needs to happen to take the next step as a program and start making deep runs into the tournament. For Catholic, they're located in a major city (DC) with direct access to the metro system on campus so location is obviously attractive for college athletes and the DMV produces a lot of good talent. They also got a brand new soccer stadium within the last few years and new locker rooms, all since I've left. The things they don't have going for them are cost of tuition and academic reputation. While not bad academically, it doesn't compare to the schools mentioned by PN and yet is equally as expensive, so all kids interested in Catholic and are good students end up playing at the better academic schools. Unfortunately good players that would like to come to Catholic either can't get in or can't afford to go to school there, a problem many schools struggle with. What has kept Catholic competitive is that they offer a few majors that other smaller d3 schools don't offer (biomedical engineering, architecture, nursing etc) and so good athletes that want to major in those subjects will play there and they also have gotten a couple talented transfers who were from the area or knew current players which attracted them to the program. It's definitely a challenge and one that I know many programs face since they are in the same situation.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 10, 2022, 12:02:03 PM
Quote from: Caz Bombers on November 10, 2022, 11:34:00 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 10, 2022, 10:40:46 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 10, 2022, 10:28:41 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 10, 2022, 08:17:14 AM
And oddly enough a couple of weeks ago I was thinking about Keene and how to my knowledge they are one of only two D3 teams named the Owls.
Now the great thing about this board is that Sager or FW within the next half-hour will list four other D3s that are Owls lol.
Keene State
Kenyon
UMPI
Rowan
Westfield State
That's the five D3 schools nicknamed Owls.
Sorry that I didn't meet the deadline, but I just logged in. ;)
I knew it! Hahahahahahahahahahaha.....as my kids would say.
Rowan is the Profs. The logo is an owl, but that's not the nickname.
Yeah, you're right. Forgot about that. My bad.
That could start a whole new thread: Schools whose mascot is different than the nickname.
One of my running gags with my Hopkins friends is pretending to be confused by both Haverford and Swarthmore's mascots/nicknames.
I am loving this W&L history:-)
A couple of things: there are even more W&L supporters on the board -- @futbolislife is one, and I think there are others who just lurk.
You may know that Coach Singleton is, in addition to being a soccer coach, a professor of psychology. Without doublechecking, I believe he teaches a course in sports psychology.
Teams that should be better: Emory and Skidmore.
LOTL, I don't want to get us too far afield from the thread topic, but some of your points I've been thinking about with the idea that some of my biases on this topic may be off (and maybe way off).
But first, typing LOTL for some reason made me think of LGOTB (lastguyoffthebench). Used to be a mainstay here and iirc he was mostly absent last season but re-emerged a bit at tournament time. I've also asked about Ommadawn several times, and while there could be a 100 different reasons for drop-offs, one does hope all are OK as we approach a full three years of Covid.
Anyway, I realize Catholic isn't exactly peers with Trinity (CT), Union, Skidmore, etc...but I used to think having somewhat looser admissions should be a big advantage and now I'm questioning whether that's true. Maybe kids who would be difference makers at such schools are able to access schools considered a half-tier above or a peer school like SLU that already has an entrenched tradition of soccer excellence with frequent NCAA appearances. Ursinus and to some degree Muhlenberg I think face similar challenges to a Catholic (without having the big plus Catholic does have in terms of being in middle of DC). Like how is the Ursinus coach supposed to get a kid who also gets recruited by Gettysburg, Dickinson, F&M, etc? Probably 19 times out of 20 Ursinus won't get that kid, and when they do get one, it's probably related to a kid with some need who is offered 20-30K in merit money.
Quote from: LetteroftheLaw on November 10, 2022, 12:04:22 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 10, 2022, 11:01:17 AM
Ideal places to grow an outstanding and sustainably outstanding soccer program is a really interesting one. I know SC finds this interesting and believes that many, many schools could grow solid to very good programs with the right mix of ingredients. Some schools obviously are easy to identify as providing a great opportunity in this regard....and two that come to mind immediately especially in recent years are W&L and Denison...both with huge attractiveness and money. It's actually maybe more surprising that these schools weren't consistently stronger for years before the last half-decade or so. I especially wonder about W&L pre-Singleton because it seems that Coach P was a great coach and very beloved. I had a classmate at Davidson (talking class of '81) who talked about almost going to W&L because of Coach P. We've debated to what extent high academics is a recruiting plus or too limiting in terms of a recruitment pool, but without going deep down that road let it suffice to say that high end academics and highly selective admissions have not prevented great success at Williams, Amherst, Chicago, Bowdoin, Midd, Hopkins, Tufts, etc, etc.
I think many of us believe an outstanding coach who can envision a place being more than a placeholder while working one's way up for a "better" job makes a huge difference. I'll use Emerson as a hypothetical since I don't actually know the details. But it seems possible Harkin (came from Tufts and left Emerson to be an asst with Shapiro again at Harvard) maybe didn't view Emerson as a place where it might be possible to build a competitive program. And it's way too early to conclude based on this past year's success whether Emerson has the resources to take that kind of step. But my thesis anyway is that a coach has to first see potential to build something (like at Denison where I think Bianco saw Denison as a destination job where there was a very good chance with the right vision and management to build something really good). The coach needs to stay for a while or at least have a pipeline that continues what one started, but once a school starts having some success, a better reputation for soccer gets planted, and as progress continues a smart coach figures out what the school has going for it in general to promote and highlight for recruits....and maybe eventually getting to a point where the overall recruiting pool thinks of that school as a very interesting and attractive place to consider.
This is a really interesting topic to me. I will use the example of Catholic since I'm most familiar with the program. The head coach Travis Beauchamp has been there for 16 years and has taken the program from a nobody to a perennial Landmark favorite and can almost be considered a regular in the ncaa tournament. As an alum, I've wondered what needs to happen to take the next step as a program and start making deep runs into the tournament. For Catholic, they're located in a major city (DC) with direct access to the metro system on campus so location is obviously attractive for college athletes and the DMV produces a lot of good talent. They also got a brand new soccer stadium within the last few years and new locker rooms, all since I've left. The things they don't have going for them are cost of tuition and academic reputation. While not bad academically, it doesn't compare to the schools mentioned by PN and yet is equally as expensive, so all kids interested in Catholic and are good students end up playing at the better academic schools. Unfortunately good players that would like to come to Catholic either can't get in or can't afford to go to school there, a problem many schools struggle with. What has kept Catholic competitive is that they offer a few majors that other smaller d3 schools don't offer (biomedical engineering, architecture, nursing etc) and so good athletes that want to major in those subjects will play there and they also have gotten a couple talented transfers who were from the area or knew current players which attracted them to the program. It's definitely a challenge and one that I know many programs face since they are in the same situation.
Great point about tuition/reputation. Another issue I see is the field. Yes, Carlini is a nice new complex, but it's a mile from campus and literarily next to a dump. Scranton has the same issue - great new complex but 1.5 miles from campus. That was a major turn-off when my kid was looking at schools.
Quote from: Ejay on November 10, 2022, 01:00:30 PM
Quote from: LetteroftheLaw on November 10, 2022, 12:04:22 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 10, 2022, 11:01:17 AM
Ideal places to grow an outstanding and sustainably outstanding soccer program is a really interesting one. I know SC finds this interesting and believes that many, many schools could grow solid to very good programs with the right mix of ingredients. Some schools obviously are easy to identify as providing a great opportunity in this regard....and two that come to mind immediately especially in recent years are W&L and Denison...both with huge attractiveness and money. It's actually maybe more surprising that these schools weren't consistently stronger for years before the last half-decade or so. I especially wonder about W&L pre-Singleton because it seems that Coach P was a great coach and very beloved. I had a classmate at Davidson (talking class of '81) who talked about almost going to W&L because of Coach P. We've debated to what extent high academics is a recruiting plus or too limiting in terms of a recruitment pool, but without going deep down that road let it suffice to say that high end academics and highly selective admissions have not prevented great success at Williams, Amherst, Chicago, Bowdoin, Midd, Hopkins, Tufts, etc, etc.
I think many of us believe an outstanding coach who can envision a place being more than a placeholder while working one's way up for a "better" job makes a huge difference. I'll use Emerson as a hypothetical since I don't actually know the details. But it seems possible Harkin (came from Tufts and left Emerson to be an asst with Shapiro again at Harvard) maybe didn't view Emerson as a place where it might be possible to build a competitive program. And it's way too early to conclude based on this past year's success whether Emerson has the resources to take that kind of step. But my thesis anyway is that a coach has to first see potential to build something (like at Denison where I think Bianco saw Denison as a destination job where there was a very good chance with the right vision and management to build something really good). The coach needs to stay for a while or at least have a pipeline that continues what one started, but once a school starts having some success, a better reputation for soccer gets planted, and as progress continues a smart coach figures out what the school has going for it in general to promote and highlight for recruits....and maybe eventually getting to a point where the overall recruiting pool thinks of that school as a very interesting and attractive place to consider.
This is a really interesting topic to me. I will use the example of Catholic since I'm most familiar with the program. The head coach Travis Beauchamp has been there for 16 years and has taken the program from a nobody to a perennial Landmark favorite and can almost be considered a regular in the ncaa tournament. As an alum, I've wondered what needs to happen to take the next step as a program and start making deep runs into the tournament. For Catholic, they're located in a major city (DC) with direct access to the metro system on campus so location is obviously attractive for college athletes and the DMV produces a lot of good talent. They also got a brand new soccer stadium within the last few years and new locker rooms, all since I've left. The things they don't have going for them are cost of tuition and academic reputation. While not bad academically, it doesn't compare to the schools mentioned by PN and yet is equally as expensive, so all kids interested in Catholic and are good students end up playing at the better academic schools. Unfortunately good players that would like to come to Catholic either can't get in or can't afford to go to school there, a problem many schools struggle with. What has kept Catholic competitive is that they offer a few majors that other smaller d3 schools don't offer (biomedical engineering, architecture, nursing etc) and so good athletes that want to major in those subjects will play there and they also have gotten a couple talented transfers who were from the area or knew current players which attracted them to the program. It's definitely a challenge and one that I know many programs face since they are in the same situation.
Great point about tuition/reputation. Another issue I see is the field. Yes, Carlini is a nice new complex, but it's a mile from campus and literarily next to a dump. Scranton has the same issue - great new complex but 1.5 miles from campus. That was a major turn-off when my kid was looking at schools.
Haha this is true, I don't think I've ever considered the possibility of having a remote field being a game changer for recruiting but might be the case.
Nothing like the fresh smell of the dump at 5:45am in august as you were stretching for the first fitness test of preseason....
NCAA Tourney Trivia Texas Style........Last time Trinity (TX) didn't make the tournament?
2001. Quite a streak. Messiah missed one year in the last decade. OWU missed only one year in the last decade.
[/quote]
Haha this is true, I don't think I've ever considered the possibility of having a remote field being a game changer for recruiting but might be the case.
Nothing like the fresh smell of the dump at 5:45am in august as you were stretching for the first fitness test of preseason....
[/quote]
Definitely a game changer for our son when being recruited. He did not want to go through another 4 years of that since his HS was building a new stadium. Just adds more to kids stress level. Accessible field can be important.
Flying to SLU? Syracuse? Albany? Burlington, VT? Montreal? Ottawa? Kingston, CA?
Depends on where you're flying from. Flights go into Ogdensburg and Watertown which is a lot closer. Other than that Syracuse most likely.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 10, 2022, 01:40:29 PM
NCAA Tourney Trivia Texas Style........Last time Trinity (TX) didn't make the tournament?
2001. Quite a streak. Messiah missed one year in the last decade. OWU missed only one year in the last decade.
To some extent, that is healthy (with apologies to the Trinity faithful). It's an indication Region X (which I think is the largest geographically in DIII, but likely the smallest or one of the smallest in terms of men's DIII soccer programs) is growing ever so slightly and becoming a little bit stronger in DIII men's soccer. St. Thomas' move from NAIA to DIII has made the SCAC tougher for teams like Trinity to get the automatic bid and forced all schools in that conference to raise their game. Also, there are now a few more teams in the west that have credible programs, such as Willamette, which was a bottom feeder a decade or so ago, lucky to win 1-2 games a year. In a region where one or zero Pool C bids are common, all it takes is a bit more difficult conference and other contenders for the (perhaps) one Pool C bid in the region to disrupt dominant programs like Trinity or Redlands (which finished the SCIAC outside the top two this year for the first time since 2009).
A question that I was thinking about after talking with MN Dad. Was the last season for UW Eau Claire going to be their first or was it the COVID season? If you look at their roster they have mostly first and second year players with some junior through out. Were these juniors transfers or were they to be the first team? Either way it goes well for the blugolds for the next couple of years with a strong young roster!
Quote from: Coach Jeff on November 10, 2022, 03:31:00 PM
A question that I was thinking about after talking with MN Dad. Was the last season for UW Eau Claire going to be their first or was it the COVID season? If you look at their roster they have mostly first and second year players with some junior through out. Were these juniors transfers or were they to be the first team? Either way it goes well for the blugolds for the next couple of years with a strong young roster!
Their first head coach was hired in March 2020 (https://blugolds.com/sports/msoc/2019-20/releases/20200309mssgst). Given that March to August would not have been enough time to recruit an entire new team, I am assuming the target debut was always the Fall of 2021. The article about the coach's hire does not say when the team was expected to start play.
From the following article, at least one of the juniors is a transfer--in his case from St. Thomas (who was transitioning to D-I upon being kicked out of the MIAC).
https://www.leadertelegram.com/sports/mens-college-soccer-uw-eau-claire-off-to-hot-start-in-second-season/article_d9daf090-22f3-5113-8d70-ed2c64cd6632.html
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 10, 2022, 04:45:54 PM
Quote from: Coach Jeff on November 10, 2022, 03:31:00 PM
A question that I was thinking about after talking with MN Dad. Was the last season for UW Eau Claire going to be their first or was it the COVID season? If you look at their roster they have mostly first and second year players with some junior through out. Were these juniors transfers or were they to be the first team? Either way it goes well for the blugolds for the next couple of years with a strong young roster!
Their first head coach was hired in March 2020 (https://blugolds.com/sports/msoc/2019-20/releases/20200309mssgst). Given that March to August would not have been enough time to recruit an entire new team, I am assuming the target debut was always the Fall of 2021. The article about the coach's hire does not say when the team was expected to start play.
Thanks! That is great that the coach was able to get some older players on the team in their first year of playing D3! They have a fairly strong side.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 10, 2022, 12:07:25 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 10, 2022, 12:02:03 PM
Quote from: Caz Bombers on November 10, 2022, 11:34:00 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 10, 2022, 10:40:46 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 10, 2022, 10:28:41 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 10, 2022, 08:17:14 AM
And oddly enough a couple of weeks ago I was thinking about Keene and how to my knowledge they are one of only two D3 teams named the Owls.
Now the great thing about this board is that Sager or FW within the next half-hour will list four other D3s that are Owls lol.
Keene State
Kenyon
UMPI
Rowan
Westfield State
That's the five D3 schools nicknamed Owls.
Sorry that I didn't meet the deadline, but I just logged in. ;)
I knew it! Hahahahahahahahahahaha.....as my kids would say.
Rowan is the Profs. The logo is an owl, but that's not the nickname.
Yeah, you're right. Forgot about that. My bad.
That could start a whole new thread: Schools whose mascot is different than the nickname.
One of my running gags with my Hopkins friends is pretending to be confused by both Haverford and Swarthmore's mascots/nicknames.
The MIAC has got to be near the top of the list when it comes to conferences with the least creative/worst school nicknames, don't ya know.
Gustavus Gusties, St Olaf Oles, St. Johns Johnnies, Augsburg Auggies.
Tough soccer conference, but half the schools really lacked any creative juice when it comes to nicknames...
Quote from: Coach Jeff on November 10, 2022, 04:49:41 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 10, 2022, 04:45:54 PM
Quote from: Coach Jeff on November 10, 2022, 03:31:00 PM
A question that I was thinking about after talking with MN Dad. Was the last season for UW Eau Claire going to be their first or was it the COVID season? If you look at their roster they have mostly first and second year players with some junior through out. Were these juniors transfers or were they to be the first team? Either way it goes well for the blugolds for the next couple of years with a strong young roster!
Their first head coach was hired in March 2020 (https://blugolds.com/sports/msoc/2019-20/releases/20200309mssgst). Given that March to August would not have been enough time to recruit an entire new team, I am assuming the target debut was always the Fall of 2021. The article about the coach's hire does not say when the team was expected to start play.
Thanks! That is great that the coach was able to get some older players on the team in their first year of playing D3! They have a fairly strong side.
2021 was the planned first year. WIAC history (https://wiacsports.com/sports/2010/7/29/GEN_0729100843.aspx) talks about men's soccer but doesn't mention when/why it ended. I assume the why was schools had to drop the sport for budget reasons. UWEC celebrated a single senior on Senior Day -- Daniel Muths incorrectly listed as Soph on the roster page. He was the first recruit for Coach Holm and the team has named a team award after him for future players. Coach wants to have a very strong future SoS for this team as the big sophomore class ages and becomes upperclassmen.
In Australia, the biggest horse race is the Melbourne Cup, a race over two miles, typically wit around 20 horses running. If you read the form, cases can be made for well over half the field. This is my first D3 Tournament and whilst I appreciate the consistency with which Messiah and Chicago have been at the top of rankings, using the Enmorecat special sauce (patent pending) I came up with 11 teams where I would absolutely not be surprised if they happened to win and I am sure that my list would differ from others. The one thing I would say is that despite that, some of that 11 will be gone after the second round. For me, this makes it fascinating.
I haven't seen any non-NESCAC teams this year, so really can't tell you how good the top ten that aren't NESCAC really are, but respect what they have done. What I will say is that I reckon every NESCAC team in conference, almost plays a final every game, I can't help but think that the battle hardness counts at this time of year.
Quote from: MNBob on November 10, 2022, 07:00:51 PM
Quote from: Coach Jeff on November 10, 2022, 04:49:41 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 10, 2022, 04:45:54 PM
Quote from: Coach Jeff on November 10, 2022, 03:31:00 PM
A question that I was thinking about after talking with MN Dad. Was the last season for UW Eau Claire going to be their first or was it the COVID season? If you look at their roster they have mostly first and second year players with some junior through out. Were these juniors transfers or were they to be the first team? Either way it goes well for the blugolds for the next couple of years with a strong young roster!
Their first head coach was hired in March 2020 (https://blugolds.com/sports/msoc/2019-20/releases/20200309mssgst). Given that March to August would not have been enough time to recruit an entire new team, I am assuming the target debut was always the Fall of 2021. The article about the coach's hire does not say when the team was expected to start play.
Thanks! That is great that the coach was able to get some older players on the team in their first year of playing D3! They have a fairly strong side.
2021 was the planned first year. WIAC history (https://wiacsports.com/sports/2010/7/29/GEN_0729100843.aspx) talks about men's soccer but doesn't mention when/why it ended. I assume the why was schools had to drop the sport for budget reasons.
According to UW-Oshkosh, they dropped men's soccer (a sport in which they'd had some national success) due to Title IX.
Quote from: EnmoreCat on November 10, 2022, 07:02:10 PM
In Australia, the biggest horse race is the Melbourne Cup, a race over two miles, typically wit around 20 horses running. If you read the form, cases can be made for well over half the field. This is my first D3 Tournament and whilst I appreciate the consistency with which Messiah and Chicago have been at the top of rankings, using the Enmorecat special sauce (patent pending) I came up with 11 teams where I would absolutely not be surprised if they happened to win and I am sure that my list would differ from others. The one thing I would say is that despite that, some of that 11 will be gone after the second round. For me, this makes it fascinating.
I haven't seen any non-NESCAC teams this year, so really can't tell you how good the top ten that aren't NESCAC really are, but respect what they have done. What I will say is that I reckon every NESCAC team in conference, almost plays a final every game, I can't help but think that the battle hardness counts at this time of year.
I hope you saw my article earlier about the NESCAC's dominance of the recent NCAA tournaments. I think the reasons are plentiful.
Certainly great schools that can attract a lot of high level players (similar advantage for JH, Chicago and others)
Strong history (although no one matches Messiah)
Deep rosters which are especially important for three straight weekends of back to back. Shapiro, former coach at Tufts was the master at this line up usage
Experience with back to back weekends. NESCAC schools usually have at least 2 per season.
Very hardened and deep conference. Every game is a battle. Even the bottom of the conference - Trinity Bates and Colby were in most games. 10 conference games.
Fairly easy to round out strong out of conference schedule with historically strong, convenient games like Babson, WPI, MIT etc.
I'm sure most folks already know, but just in case... One stop shop for the opening weekend schedule.
https://www.ncaa.com/scoreboard/soccer-men/d3
Wow! Greenville defender makes a really aggressive slide tackle in the box just a few minutes in resulting in a PK for
Kenyon before they had even taken a single shot. 1-0 Kenyon. Not how you want to start if you're Greenville
Quote from: jdfranklin23 on November 11, 2022, 11:20:04 AM
Wow! Greenville defender makes a really aggressive slide tackle in the box just a few minutes in resulting in a PK for
Kenyon before they had even taken a single shot. 1-0 Kenyon. Not how you want to start if you're Greenville
And now 2-0 on a nice little cross and header. Greenville in a really bad hole now.
Quote from: jdfranklin23 on November 11, 2022, 11:20:04 AM
Wow! Greenville defender makes a really aggressive slide tackle in the box just a few minutes in resulting in a PK for
Kenyon before they had even taken a single shot. 1-0 Kenyon. Not how you want to start if you're Greenville
Dujakovich to Gease for a header. 2-0 Kenyon 15 minutes in :o
Beautiful pitch!
I have Kenyon making a little run and feel like I backed the right horse in that region.
Quote from: jdfranklin23 on November 11, 2022, 11:23:28 AM
Quote from: jdfranklin23 on November 11, 2022, 11:20:04 AM
Wow! Greenville defender makes a really aggressive slide tackle in the box just a few minutes in resulting in a PK for
Kenyon before they had even taken a single shot. 1-0 Kenyon. Not how you want to start if you're Greenville
Dujakovich to Gease for a header. 2-0 Kenyon 15 minutes in :o
3-0 on a free kick that I don't think the Greenville keeper even saw for some reason.
What's the halftime talk going to sound like for Greenville?
UPDATE: 4-0 with 5 minutes to go. Halftime talk is "let's dry off boys"
Kenyon in White and Greenville in Black
Raining and foggy but the field looks real good.
And Greenville makes a silly tackle in the box and have conceded a penalty kick 7 minutes in.
No arguing so assume he knew he fouled them.
Goes to the Keeper's right. Keeper got a hand on it, but it goes in.
Kenyon 1, Greenville 0
Kenyon, in fairness has been controlling much of the play. Greenville has been absorbing the pressure. Forcing Greenville to chase
Like the announcer.
The Lords own the ball. And slowly keep pushing Greenville deeper into their half.
And 15 minutes in, Kenyon goes up another with a ball that is centered into the middle that is headed into the back of the net for a goal. Ball was taken from a Greenville defender who failed to clear the ball.
Kenyon 2, Greenville 0
I don't see Greenville having anything in their tool box that will help them recover here. I think this game was over after the first goal.
They really havent been able to break down Kenyon that would get them close to goal.
Kenyon is closer to a 3rd than Greenville is to getting a throw in in Kenyon's half.
Kenyon eating the outside backs alive.
I don't know if it is Greenville #20. The left CDM. I like him. Think he can play and has ideas. Plays the ball to the correct foot. Just not working for Greenville right now.
16 left.
13 minutes left in the half and Greenville commits a foul about 26/7 yards from the goal. Four man wall just inside the 18. Kenyon player hits the ball... through the wall? And goes to the Keeper's right.... Probably because he expected his wall to do it's job.
Kenyon 3, Greenville 0
Hey, Greenville got a throw in in Kenyon's half.
Game is over
Greenville just doesn't react. Would have expected someone to get crushed on a tackle. Something.
9 minutes left.
Thinking @PaulNewman must be feeling good right now. Or is it the prescription meds his son gave him to get "through" the tournament.
And Kenyon gets a fourth. Ball slotted to the side net to the Keeper's left.
Kenyon 4, Greenville 0
Serious, what is the record for most goals scored in an NCAA tournament game?
8 minutes left.
I am out of this one. Seen what I needed to see.
Kenyon looks good and not allowing this to become a game.
Quote from: SimpleCoach on November 11, 2022, 11:51:48 AM
Serious, what is the record for most goals scored in an NCAA tournament game?
10 for 1 team
11 for total goals between both teams
Quote from: paclassic89 on November 11, 2022, 11:57:37 AM
Quote from: SimpleCoach on November 11, 2022, 11:51:48 AM
Serious, what is the record for most goals scored in an NCAA tournament game?
10 for 1 team
11 for total goals between both teams
Most Goals Scored in a NCAA Division III Men's Soccer Tournament Game (both teams):111974 1st Round: Westfield St. 10, Coast Guard 1
1976 Quarterfinals: Brandeis 6, WPI 5 (OT)
1990 1st Round: Kenyon 7, Wooster 4 (2OT)
1998 Sweet 16: Johns Hopkins 6, Bethany (W.V.) 5
102007 1st Round: Salisbury 10, SUNY-Old Westbury 0
2013 1st Round: Messiah 9, Centenary (N.J.) 1
92003 2nd Round: Wheaton (Ill.) 7, Concordia (Wis.) 2
Largest Margins of Victory in NCAA Division III Men's Soccer Tournament Game:102007 1st Round: Salisbury 10, SUNY-Old Westbury 0
91974 1st Round: Wsetfield St. 10, Coast Guard 1
82013 1st Round: Messiah 9, Centenary (N.J.) 1
2012 2nd Round: St. Lawrence 8, Wheaton (Mass.) 0
2010 1st Round: Williams 8, Suffolk 0
2008 1st Round: Stockton 8, St. Joseph's (L.I.) 0
3rd goal either went through the wall or just past the left edge. Either way the keeper was expecting more from that wall. Rain subsided a bit. Tomorrow's forecast high 30's and flurries. Yay.
Quote from: SimpleCoach on November 11, 2022, 11:51:48 AM
Kenyon in White and Greenville in Black
Raining and foggy but the field looks real good.
And Greenville makes a silly tackle in the box and have conceded a penalty kick 7 minutes in.
No arguing so assume he knew he fouled them.
Goes to the Keeper's right. Keeper got a hand on it, but it goes in.
Kenyon 1, Greenville 0
Kenyon, in fairness has been controlling much of the play. Greenville has been absorbing the pressure. Forcing Greenville to chase
Like the announcer.
The Lords own the ball. And slowly keep pushing Greenville deeper into their half.
And 15 minutes in, Kenyon goes up another with a ball that is centered into the middle that is headed into the back of the net for a goal. Ball was taken from a Greenville defender who failed to clear the ball.
Kenyon 2, Greenville 0
I don't see Greenville having anything in their tool box that will help them recover here. I think this game was over after the first goal.
They really havent been able to break down Kenyon that would get them close to goal.
Kenyon is closer to a 3rd than Greenville is to getting a throw in in Kenyon's half.
Kenyon eating the outside backs alive.
I don't know if it is Greenville #20. The left CDM. I like him. Think he can play and has ideas. Plays the ball to the correct foot. Just not working for Greenville right now.
16 left.
13 minutes left in the half and Greenville commits a foul about 26/7 yards from the goal. Four man wall just inside the 18. Kenyon player hits the ball... through the wall? And goes to the Keeper's right.... Probably because he expected his wall to do it's job.
Kenyon 3, Greenville 0
Hey, Greenville got a throw in in Kenyon's half.
Game is over
Greenville just doesn't react. Would have expected someone to get crushed on a tackle. Something.
9 minutes left.
Thinking @PaulNewman must be feeling good right now. Or is it the prescription meds his son gave him to get "through" the tournament.
And Kenyon gets a fourth. Ball slotted to the side net to the Keeper's left.
Kenyon 4, Greenville 0
Serious, what is the record for most goals scored in an NCAA tournament game?
8 minutes left.
I am out of this one. Seen what I needed to see.
Kenyon looks good and not allowing this to become a game.
Yup, this one is all over. But I will say, Greenville's keeper is keeping this from being 10-0. He guessed right on the PK and got a piece. Just not enough he can do to stop everything Kenyon has thrown at him.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 11, 2022, 11:25:41 AM
Beautiful pitch!
I have Kenyon making a little run and feel like I backed the right horse in that region.
I want my team to play at Kenyon just for the field and the broadcast.
Quote from: Maine Soccer Fan on November 11, 2022, 12:26:16 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 11, 2022, 11:25:41 AM
Beautiful pitch!
I have Kenyon making a little run and feel like I backed the right horse in that region.
I want my team to play at Kenyon just for the field and the broadcast.
I expect Kenyon to be around for a little while in this tournament.....
Going to get another heavy rain in the next 30 minutes.
Now it appears we're going to have heavy to moderate rain for a while
Quote from: jdfranklin23 on November 11, 2022, 12:24:42 PM
Quote from: SimpleCoach on November 11, 2022, 11:51:48 AM
Kenyon in White and Greenville in Black
Raining and foggy but the field looks real good.
And Greenville makes a silly tackle in the box and have conceded a penalty kick 7 minutes in.
No arguing so assume he knew he fouled them.
Goes to the Keeper's right. Keeper got a hand on it, but it goes in.
Kenyon 1, Greenville 0
Kenyon, in fairness has been controlling much of the play. Greenville has been absorbing the pressure. Forcing Greenville to chase
Like the announcer.
The Lords own the ball. And slowly keep pushing Greenville deeper into their half.
And 15 minutes in, Kenyon goes up another with a ball that is centered into the middle that is headed into the back of the net for a goal. Ball was taken from a Greenville defender who failed to clear the ball.
Kenyon 2, Greenville 0
I don't see Greenville having anything in their tool box that will help them recover here. I think this game was over after the first goal.
They really havent been able to break down Kenyon that would get them close to goal.
Kenyon is closer to a 3rd than Greenville is to getting a throw in in Kenyon's half.
Kenyon eating the outside backs alive.
I don't know if it is Greenville #20. The left CDM. I like him. Think he can play and has ideas. Plays the ball to the correct foot. Just not working for Greenville right now.
16 left.
13 minutes left in the half and Greenville commits a foul about 26/7 yards from the goal. Four man wall just inside the 18. Kenyon player hits the ball... through the wall? And goes to the Keeper's right.... Probably because he expected his wall to do it's job.
Kenyon 3, Greenville 0
Hey, Greenville got a throw in in Kenyon's half.
Game is over
Greenville just doesn't react. Would have expected someone to get crushed on a tackle. Something.
9 minutes left.
Thinking @PaulNewman must be feeling good right now. Or is it the prescription meds his son gave him to get "through" the tournament.
And Kenyon gets a fourth. Ball slotted to the side net to the Keeper's left.
Kenyon 4, Greenville 0
Serious, what is the record for most goals scored in an NCAA tournament game?
8 minutes left.
I am out of this one. Seen what I needed to see.
Kenyon looks good and not allowing this to become a game.
Yup, this one is all over. But I will say, Greenville's keeper is keeping this from being 10-0. He guessed right on the PK and got a piece. Just not enough he can do to stop everything Kenyon has thrown at him.
Meanwhile, W. Conn and Montclair are at home thinking they could have given Kenyon a game.
Better late, than never . . .
November 11, 2022
2022 NCAA Tournament Field Factoids (https://d3soccer.com/ncaatournament/2022/2022-tournament-field-factoids)
By Christan Shirk
Who knows, this just may be my last offering on D3soccer.com. No deep analysis or prognostication. In fact, no analysis or prognostication. Just a light look at the tournament field demographics. Might be some interesting nuggets in there even for you hard core fans.
I doubt this game will be 6-1
Quote from: Saint of Old on November 11, 2022, 01:08:01 PM
Quote from: jdfranklin23 on November 11, 2022, 12:24:42 PM
Quote from: SimpleCoach on November 11, 2022, 11:51:48 AM
Kenyon in White and Greenville in Black
Raining and foggy but the field looks real good.
And Greenville makes a silly tackle in the box and have conceded a penalty kick 7 minutes in.
No arguing so assume he knew he fouled them.
Goes to the Keeper's right. Keeper got a hand on it, but it goes in.
Kenyon 1, Greenville 0
Kenyon, in fairness has been controlling much of the play. Greenville has been absorbing the pressure. Forcing Greenville to chase
Like the announcer.
The Lords own the ball. And slowly keep pushing Greenville deeper into their half.
And 15 minutes in, Kenyon goes up another with a ball that is centered into the middle that is headed into the back of the net for a goal. Ball was taken from a Greenville defender who failed to clear the ball.
Kenyon 2, Greenville 0
I don't see Greenville having anything in their tool box that will help them recover here. I think this game was over after the first goal.
They really havent been able to break down Kenyon that would get them close to goal.
Kenyon is closer to a 3rd than Greenville is to getting a throw in in Kenyon's half.
Kenyon eating the outside backs alive.
I don't know if it is Greenville #20. The left CDM. I like him. Think he can play and has ideas. Plays the ball to the correct foot. Just not working for Greenville right now.
16 left.
13 minutes left in the half and Greenville commits a foul about 26/7 yards from the goal. Four man wall just inside the 18. Kenyon player hits the ball... through the wall? And goes to the Keeper's right.... Probably because he expected his wall to do it's job.
Kenyon 3, Greenville 0
Hey, Greenville got a throw in in Kenyon's half.
Game is over
Greenville just doesn't react. Would have expected someone to get crushed on a tackle. Something.
9 minutes left.
Thinking @PaulNewman must be feeling good right now. Or is it the prescription meds his son gave him to get "through" the tournament.
And Kenyon gets a fourth. Ball slotted to the side net to the Keeper's left.
Kenyon 4, Greenville 0
Serious, what is the record for most goals scored in an NCAA tournament game?
8 minutes left.
I am out of this one. Seen what I needed to see.
Kenyon looks good and not allowing this to become a game.
Yup, this one is all over. But I will say, Greenville's keeper is keeping this from being 10-0. He guessed right on the PK and got a piece. Just not enough he can do to stop everything Kenyon has thrown at him.
Meanwhile, W. Conn and Montclair are at home thinking they could have given Kenyon a game.
I'm sure there are a bunch of schools that missed out on Pool C bids that could beat many of the automatic qualifiers from individual leagues. That's common in these type of tournaments. Same thing for UEFA's Champions League, the Olympics, and all NCAA Tournaments. They have what the International Sports governing bodies call a "universality" feature. In swimming, for example, FINA lets one male and one female in from a country with no swimmers who met the qualifying time as long as they meet a lower standard. FINA also limits a country to two swimmers per event, even if the third best swimmer in the world in an event from a country would be a shoe-in for the Bronze Medal behind his two country mates. In the Champions League, the top league in every country gets a spot to ensure representation, even if a bottom team in the English Premier League would crush the top team in a country with a lesser top league (although they do play-in rounds to weed those teams out before there are blowouts). In NCAA tournaments, the top team in every league gets an automatic invite even if everyone acknowledges that it will exclude some of the best teams. In DIII soccer, it's even less purely merit-based because the emphasis on regional rankings gives some teams a chance at a Pool C bid when they would have virtually no chance from a stronger region. That means it is NOT a tournament of the best teams by design, not because of poor selections.
Quote from: Christan Shirk on November 11, 2022, 01:14:41 PM
Better late, than never . . .
November 11, 2022
2022 NCAA Tournament Field Factoids (https://d3soccer.com/ncaatournament/2022/2022-tournament-field-factoids)
By Christan Shirk
Who knows, this just may be my last offering on D3soccer.com.
I hate to see those words. Say it ain't so, Christan!
Calvin is up 2-0 with 24 minutes left in the first half. I felt like CM has had some of the better possession; but, Calvin has capitalized on their chances. Mason Smith and Colin Iverson have combined for 1g, 1a each. And man, Mason Smith's goal was a rocket off the middle of the cross bar from in close. :o
BTW can we talk about umbrellas obstructing the view of the live feed?! ???
Calvin is up 3-0 and are obviously playing well but I'm not sure they've put it in their top gear yet.
One of the few times I've seen a corner kick play like that involving a pass on the ground, a dummy, and a one-time shot to the top corner of the goal work out. CMU's defense was awful on that one, with multiple players biting on the dummy and no one covering the player behind him, but the Calvin players executed it to perfection. Calvin up 3-0 with a few minutes left in the first half. CMU's coach might have to break out the same speech that Greenville's coach gave at half time v. Kenyon.
"Parallel park the bus boys, let's try to get out of here somewhat respectable".
Agree with the sentiment, having spot-checked the first half. CMU really should've pulled things to 2-1 with about 20 minutes to go in the half. Nice combo passing sprung a FWD 1v1 on the goalie, but he made a nice save.
Shaw(Shah?) on Calvin's right wing is a terror and a problem for the opposition. Nightmare trying to defend him 1v1.
With that said, this is a weird 3-0 score line. Tartans aren't playing poorly by any stretch of the imagination. Calving has been filthy on set pieces and super efficient on offense. CMU has shown some pretty nice passing and spacing. They certainly haven't thrown in the the towel, which is probably going to lead to another Knights goal.
Quote from: Kuiper on November 11, 2022, 02:17:30 PM
One of the few times I've seen a corner kick play like that involving a pass on the ground, a dummy, and a one-time shot to the top corner of the goal work out. CMU's defense was awful on that one, with multiple players biting on the dummy and no one covering the player behind him, but the Calvin players executed it to perfection. Calvin up 3-0 with a few minutes left in the first half. CMU's coach might have to break out the same speech that Greenville's coach gave at half time v. Kenyon.
We had moderate success on the turf, which obviously helped settle the ball.
We also had a guy that sold the dummy better than anyone I've seen since. Good enough he often dummied his own team. :D
That Dummy for goal 3 reminded me of the Rivaldo dummy for Ronaldo's goal against Germany in 2002 WC final for the old heads here. Plays likenthat should really get assists.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 11, 2022, 02:31:45 PM
Shaw(Shah?) on Calvin's right wing is a terror and a problem for the opposition. Nightmare trying to defend him 1v1.
Kadin Shaban. Transfer from Michigan State
This ref must have rabbit ears or something... Seems very worried about dissent (I guess) and he's given out a card to CMU already that looked like for dissent and now he's barking at the keeper. Like... They aren't wasting time, what could he possibly be getting into it with the goalie for there?
Lighten up, Francis.
Quote from: calvin_grad on November 11, 2022, 02:41:58 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 11, 2022, 02:31:45 PM
Shaw(Shah?) on Calvin's right wing is a terror and a problem for the opposition. Nightmare trying to defend him 1v1.
Kadin Shaban. Transfer from Michigan State
And there you go. Dude is gnar.
And for those not watching, the Calvin keeper made a beautiful diving save to keep a shot from about 25 yards that was destined for U90.
Easily could've been 3-1 with barely 2 minutes off the clock.
SC....prescription filled.
Cannot believe two top 6 teams and two of the 8-10 teams that could win the whole thing are playing in 2nd round.
Calvin is just so smart. Brilliant, really. They allowed CMU tons of possession because they knew CMU really couldn't hurt them...which prevented CMU from playing a more defensive, solid game that might keep the game tight. Rope-a-dope strategy. Calvin is lethal and knows they only need a handful of chances. Knights also much bigger than I thought and as I type Calvin GK who is ginormous makes a nice save. Don't see any weaknesses. And tomorrow they will likely play a completely different kind of strategy.
No clue what will happen tomorrow (other than a great game and likely one of the best of the whole tournament) but Calvin is definitely capable of beating Messiah and Chicago. And btw, Akintade and Schau are as good anyone at their positions in the country.
Quote from: calvin_grad on November 11, 2022, 02:41:58 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 11, 2022, 02:31:45 PM
Shaw(Shah?) on Calvin's right wing is a terror and a problem for the opposition. Nightmare trying to defend him 1v1.
Kadin Shaban. Transfer from Michigan State
I think he meant Schau...but noted.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 11, 2022, 02:32:58 PM
Quote from: Kuiper on November 11, 2022, 02:17:30 PM
One of the few times I've seen a corner kick play like that involving a pass on the ground, a dummy, and a one-time shot to the top corner of the goal work out. CMU's defense was awful on that one, with multiple players biting on the dummy and no one covering the player behind him, but the Calvin players executed it to perfection. Calvin up 3-0 with a few minutes left in the first half. CMU's coach might have to break out the same speech that Greenville's coach gave at half time v. Kenyon.
We had moderate success on the turf, which obviously helped settle the ball.
We also had a guy that sold the dummy better than anyone I've seen since. Good enough he often dummied his own team. :D
It's a play that's in just about every coach's playbook on corner kicks and everyone practice it. Turf definitely helps increase the chances because it's a long pass to execute on the ground. Usually, either a defender disrupts it before it gets to the first striker because it's too slow or too obvious, a defender is in position to disrupt or block the second striker's shot, or the second striker can't handle the one-time shot and skies it or it gets blocked simply because of the mass of bodies in his way. A decent % of the time, it leads to a counterattack because a defender intercepts it at the top of the box and is off and running. Like in golf, though, it's that one sweet shot that works that keeps coaches coming back to it.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 11, 2022, 02:48:55 PM
Quote from: calvin_grad on November 11, 2022, 02:41:58 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 11, 2022, 02:31:45 PM
Shaw(Shah?) on Calvin's right wing is a terror and a problem for the opposition. Nightmare trying to defend him 1v1.
Kadin Shaban. Transfer from Michigan State
I think he meant Schau...but noted.
The guy that was being a terror in the 1st half seemed to be coming from the right flank. Not familiar enough with Calvin to know if Schau is the type to float out there, or if the announcer just made a mistake or just misheard it. Shaban definitely is a wide player.
Tell you what, tomorrow's game is must see TV... Calvin doesn't mess around going forward. Clinical finishing.
4-0... get the bench-bench in there coach.
Quote from: Saint of Old on November 11, 2022, 02:23:31 PM
"Parallel park the bus boys, let's try to get out of here somewhat respectable".
CMU didn't take that approach and it's now 4-0 Calvin on a well-worked attack down the right flank that leads to a cross from the end-line to the head of a Calvin attacker for the goal.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 11, 2022, 03:06:10 PM
Tell you what, tomorrow's game is must see TV... Calvin doesn't mess around going forward. Clinical finishing.
4-0... get the bench-bench in there coach.
Last year Kenyon had Messiah in the 2nd round, this year Calvin. Aside from being home, they can't catch a break.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 11, 2022, 03:01:42 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 11, 2022, 02:48:55 PM
Quote from: calvin_grad on November 11, 2022, 02:41:58 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 11, 2022, 02:31:45 PM
Shaw(Shah?) on Calvin's right wing is a terror and a problem for the opposition. Nightmare trying to defend him 1v1.
Kadin Shaban. Transfer from Michigan State
I think he meant Schau...but noted.
The guy that was being a terror in the 1st half seemed to be coming from the right flank. Not familiar enough with Calvin to know if Schau is the type to float out there, or if the announcer just made a mistake or just misheard it. Shaban definitely is a wide player.
OK, so maybe you were talking about Shaban. "Shaw" sounded a lot like Schau haha...and Schau (2nd goal that he basically roofed from six yards out) is also one of their very best players. But of course they've got really good players all over the pitch.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 11, 2022, 02:48:55 PM
Quote from: calvin_grad on November 11, 2022, 02:41:58 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 11, 2022, 02:31:45 PM
Shaw(Shah?) on Calvin's right wing is a terror and a problem for the opposition. Nightmare trying to defend him 1v1.
Kadin Shaban. Transfer from Michigan State
I think he meant Schau...but noted.
Yep, in going back to this, I'm sure that is probably who he meant. Chris Schau - led the team in goals with 12. He usually plays up top. Shaban plays on the right wing.
Quote from: jdfranklin23 on November 11, 2022, 02:05:08 PM
BTW can we talk about umbrellas obstructing the view of the live feed?! ???
I am just thankful that we didn't have to PAYWALL to see these games. If it would've been at U of R well that is a different story. Let's go Calvin
Quote from: Maine Soccer Fan on November 11, 2022, 03:07:35 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 11, 2022, 03:06:10 PM
Tell you what, tomorrow's game is must see TV... Calvin doesn't mess around going forward. Clinical finishing.
4-0... get the bench-bench in there coach.
Last year Kenyon had Messiah in the 2nd round, this year Calvin. Aside from being home, they can't catch a break.
Yup, last year felt a little more understandable after Kenyon lost to Denison and sat behind JCU in the RR because of an opening day H2H loss. But this year Kenyon was #1 in the region 3 straight weeks including after the OWU game. This has more to do with Calvin almost never being at the top of their RR because of SoS but the Knights clearly a one of the top teams in the country. We tend to forget about them once they hit conference play but their record in NCAA play speaks for itself.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 11, 2022, 02:31:45 PM
With that said, this is a weird 3-0 score line. Tartans aren't playing poorly by any stretch of the imagination. Calving has been filthy on set pieces and super efficient on offense. CMU has shown some pretty nice passing and spacing. They certainly haven't thrown in the the towel, which is probably going to lead to another Knights goal.
Credit to Carnegie for not parking the bus...
Looks like Coach Souders found a weakness in CMU's defense. Attacking down the right side often and with great results. Hope Kenyon is watching and make adjustments from their play today or it may be another second round exit for the OWLS.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 11, 2022, 03:15:57 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 11, 2022, 02:31:45 PM
With that said, this is a weird 3-0 score line. Tartans aren't playing poorly by any stretch of the imagination. Calving has been filthy on set pieces and super efficient on offense. CMU has shown some pretty nice passing and spacing. They certainly haven't thrown in the the towel, which is probably going to lead to another Knights goal.
Credit to Carnegie for not parking the bus...
5-0 now with freshman Ryu getting a brace off the counterattack goal. Both Kenyon and Calvin's starters will be as well-rested as you can be playing games two days in a row.
5-0 to Calvin and the PbP man kindly says that Carnegie Mellon's chances of staying alive are dwindling. Mmmm, you don't say!
What I don't understand as Calvin crushes a UAA team (showing they didn't belong in the tournament) is how they lost to Albion and then played Albion again and only won 3-2.
I wouldn't say CMU should have parked the bus, but they needed to be the team playing like Calvin did in the 1st half....absorb pressure for long stretches...Calvin very intentionally almost parked the bus to draw CMU in.
Played at Kenyon
CMU in Red; Calvin in White
Looks rainiy. Wet but the field looks fantastic.
So, only 5 minutes in but CMU is taking the game to Calvin right now.
And as I say that, Calvin gets to the end line and drops it back to the six, and the Calvin forward one times the ball to the far post for the go ahead goal.
This was the first real chance Calvin had.
CMU 0, Calvin 1.
And Calvin is now coming into its own.
14 minutes in and Calvin rockets a ball off the cross bar from 6 out for a goal.
CMU 0, Calvin 2.
CMU looks lost.
Calvin is very effective at executing their attack. Are not wasteful going forward and show a good amount of patience.
CMU had a chance on goal, but the Calvin Keeper came up big with a save.
22 minutes left in half.
CMU isn't getting forward in unison. Really leaving the guys up top alone.
Calvin looks closer to scoring a 3rd before CMU gets it first.
Looks like it is pouring there.
And Calvin scores a banger of a goal on a corner. Ball put across purposefully on the ground to the 18. Its dummied by one player and from 20 yards away one times it and drills it to the upper left corner.
CMU 0, Calvin 3.
Halftime
Tomorrow will be a challenge of a game for Kenyon....
Yeah, Calvin's decisiveness and efficiency going forward allows them to score without having to stretch their overall shape by throwing numbers forward. I wouldn't call what Calvin does "parking the bus" so much as staying together as a unit. Soooo many of the best teams, if you shot them from an aerial view, you'd never see more than 20 yards between lines, and overall they're within a 60 yard box at all times (on both sides of the attacking/defending equation).
I would call what Calvin is running is more of a mid-block than a low-block.
Low-block is what LVC tried to do against Messiah in that game to keep their season alive.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 11, 2022, 03:26:37 PM
What I don't understand as Calvin crushes a UAA team (showing they didn't belong in the tournament) is how they lost to Albion and then played Albion again and only won 3-2.
I wouldn't say CMU should have parked the bus, but they needed to be the team playing like Calvin did in the 1st half....absorb pressure for long stretches...Calvin very intentionally almost parked the bus to draw CMU in.
Well I am sure you did your research Aldion beat Calvin 1-0 on an own goal in a game which Calvin outshot them 20-4...You know there are games when the ball doesn't go in the net.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 11, 2022, 03:37:25 PM
Yeah, Calvin's decisiveness and efficiency going forward allows them to score without having to stretch their overall shape by throwing numbers forward. I wouldn't call what Calvin does "parking the bus" so much as staying together as a unit. Soooo many of the best teams, if you shot them from an aerial view, you'd never see more than 20 yards between lines, and overall they're within a 60 yard box at all times (on both sides of the attacking/defending equation).
I would call what Calvin is running is more of a mid-block than a low-block.
Low-block is what LVC tried to do against Messiah in that game to keep their season alive.
That is the game I just watched! Great analysis. They also had a 71% shots on goal to goals. I would say that is very effective offensive output.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 11, 2022, 03:37:25 PM
Yeah, Calvin's decisiveness and efficiency going forward allows them to score without having to stretch their overall shape by throwing numbers forward. I wouldn't call what Calvin does "parking the bus" so much as staying together as a unit. Soooo many of the best teams, if you shot them from an aerial view, you'd never see more than 20 yards between lines, and overall they're within a 60 yard box at all times (on both sides of the attacking/defending equation).
I would call what Calvin is running is more of a mid-block than a low-block.
Low-block is what LVC tried to do against Messiah in that game to keep their season alive.
Whatever it's called CMU should have done it.
Quote from: Coach Jeff on November 11, 2022, 03:37:39 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 11, 2022, 03:26:37 PM
What I don't understand as Calvin crushes a UAA team (showing they didn't belong in the tournament) is how they lost to Albion and then played Albion again and only won 3-2.
I wouldn't say CMU should have parked the bus, but they needed to be the team playing like Calvin did in the 1st half....absorb pressure for long stretches...Calvin very intentionally almost parked the bus to draw CMU in.
Well I am sure you did your research Aldion beat Calvin 1-0 on an own goal in a game which Calvin outshot them 20-4...You know there are games when the ball doesn't go in the net.
They played 180 minutes....aggregate score 3-3.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 11, 2022, 04:03:14 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 11, 2022, 03:37:25 PM
Yeah, Calvin's decisiveness and efficiency going forward allows them to score without having to stretch their overall shape by throwing numbers forward. I wouldn't call what Calvin does "parking the bus" so much as staying together as a unit. Soooo many of the best teams, if you shot them from an aerial view, you'd never see more than 20 yards between lines, and overall they're within a 60 yard box at all times (on both sides of the attacking/defending equation).
I would call what Calvin is running is more of a mid-block than a low-block.
Low-block is what LVC tried to do against Messiah in that game to keep their season alive.
Whatever it's called CMU should have done it.
:D :D :D
CMU keeper dropping a couple F-bombs at the ball boy. I've seen straight red for language on this very field during an NCAA game. But to your point: he has serious rabbit ear issues
You're spot on re: Calvin conceding possession and waiting patiently for counters today.
Calvin 's defenders can get caught switching off - as we saw on that wide open chance given to CMU midway through first half. See late first half goal vs Hanover also. Their personnel can also take unnecessary chances, creating opportunities for opponents. Kenyon's backs just don't make many mistakes. And the swarming midfielders deny opponents time on the ball.
Kenyon is the only GL team I've seen that never hurts themselves. Great skill, good decisions. Their organization and spacing is beautiful- several times today players sent ball into spaces without looking - they knew their teammates would be where they should be. Connectivity of the lines and movement up and down the field as a unit. Calvin has a few standouts that can impact the game, but Kenyon is a more complete team.
Hopefully the weather has no real bearing on the game tomorrow
Quote from: Domino1195 on November 11, 2022, 04:52:43 PM
CMU keeper dropping a couple F-bombs at the ball boy. I've seen straight red for language on this very field during an NCAA game. But to your point: he has serious rabbit ear issues
No excuse (regardless of the amount of verbal abuse he's getting), but he's a freshman. Oddly, all of CMU's three keepers are freshman. That seems like a recruiting (or retention) fail. They had a senior, sophomore, and freshman last season and now all three of them are gone.
Calvin/Kenyon is an awesome early matchup. Calvin's 3d goal as noted was a bomb. Every time a pool C bubble team gets blown out I hope the Committee has visions of West Conn dancing through their head. In retrospect, choosing CMU over West Conn was like ranking Clemson 4th in the first CFP rankings over Michigan and that generated similar facial egg.
Quote from: Domino1195 on November 11, 2022, 04:52:43 PM
CMU keeper dropping a couple F-bombs at the ball boy. I've seen straight red for language on this very field during an NCAA game. But to your point: he has serious rabbit ear issues
Ahhhhh... Then I fully retract my kind of snarky take up thread.
Been meaning to say this all week:
Region 3 is ROUGH. I felt that way after looking at Massey and then further cemented having now watched Calvin (had already seen Kenyon.) To my eyes, that's pretty easily the toughest region in which to advance. A second round match with Kenyon and Calvin is crazy.
Toughest to Not the Tougest: Region 3-2-4-1
I worded that very purposefully... NOTHING is easy in November. I also need to fully cop: Region 1 is where I'm on the shakiest ground in terms of the seeded/favored teams and having spent time with them.
500 mile rule is a bitch but you have to beat the best to be the best; round 1 or round 6. I treat D3 like an unseeded tournament and the final can be played in round one or round 6. There is only 1 trophy any of these teams want. Let's hope tomorrow's games are more competitive.
Not sure where else to put this, but I just stumbled across the fact that the men's and women's head coaches at Cortland State are a husband/wife duo: Steve Axtel coaching the men and Heidi Axtel coaching the women. Both teams are in this year's NCAA. It's the first time since 1993 that both of Cortland's teams are in the tournament the same year (something they did 4 straight years from 1990-1993), so obviously it's the first time the couple has been coaching the Red Dragons in the tournament at the same time.
I have known about the husband/wife duo at Scranton: men's head coach Matt Pivirotti, women's head coach Colleen Pivirotti. They've coached the Royals in the NCAA's in the same year in 2012 and 2016 and now for the third time this season.
Does anyone know of any other husband/wife duos coaching soccer in Division III, whether at the same school or different schools?
The other almost case is the Souders at Calvin: Ryan is men's head coach and Kacie is a women's assistant. It's interesting that Ryan played at Wheaton (Ill.) and Kacie was an All-American at Messiah, two Christian colleges with top soccer programs (at least at the time for Wheaton) and now they coach at another Christian college with strong soccer programs. [WARNING: my D-III soccer history geek-ness is about to go into overdrive!] I don't know how the two met, but Kacie's twin sister Kari played at Wheaton overlapping two years with Ryan, and Kacie and Ryan both played in the 2006 Final Four when the men's and women's teams from both schools advanced to the final weekend. The Wheaton women won the title that year (Messiah lost to TCNJ in the semifinal). In legendary coach Joe Bean's final game on the sidelines, Messiah defeated Wheaton in the men's final to end the unexpected, improbable tournament run by the Thunder (at one point in the season they were 4-6-2, then 7-6-3 and 10-7-3 entering the CCIW playoffs as the #3 seed before reeling off 7 straight must-win games for a more fitting send-off for the winningest collegiate men's soccer coach at the time). Ryan was the starting goalkeeper for the Thunder and came up huge in their NCAA quarterfinal PK shootout win over undefeated York, one of the favorites for the title (that was the second of three NCAA PK eliminations for the Spartans over a four year period; the other year during that period they won a PK shootout against Amherst, another team that just couldn't manage to reach the Final Four no way, no how at that time).
And that Final Four leads to the incredible story of the Klystra twins: Kacie and Kari. In the Spring of 2005, they won the Michigan state title their senior year of high school. They decided to go separate ways for college: Kacie to Messiah, Kari to Wheaton (Ill.). That fall, Kacie was a champion with Messiah when the Falcons won their first national title with an undefeated 22-0-1 mark. The next fall was that aforementioned 2006 Final Four where Kari became a national champion with Wheaton. Then, in 2007, the twins faced off when Wheaton and Messiah met in the national title game with the Thunder winning 1-0 to make it back-to-back championships and their third in four years with a perfect 27-0-0 record. Amazingly, the twins and their teams returned to the championship game again in 2008, but this time Kacie and the Falcons prevailed 5-0 to cap off an undefeated 24-0-2 season. In four years, the twins' teams went a combined 181-14-6 (.915).
So, bringing this back to this year's men's tournament. Can Ohio Wesleyan be the 2022 version of 2006 Wheaton? Well, I'm probably stretching things to make the comparison, but feel obliged to try to end this rambling post somewhat on the topic of this thread!!! Ohio Wesleyan, a historical powerhouse with a legendary coach (and, no, he's not retiring after this year as far as I know), started the season 0-4-2, then 4-4-4, but went on to win the NCAC tournament which probably was required to make the NCAA tournament (losing to Kenyon in the NCAC Final would have left the Bishops 9-5-4 with a 0-5-2 RvR). Is a Final Four run on the cards for the Bishops like the Thunder pulled off in 2006?
Coach Bean was a legend indeed.
So is Dr. J
There is. Reason the 50p win club is so very small.
I think coaches like that have simply seen it all before and getbto the point where they are the embodiment of tbeir program.
Interestingly both legendary coaches won 2 Chips.
I know OWU fans would love for Dr. Jay to get a 3rd.
I've seen OWU several times this season - early on and lastly the home Kenyon game. While they improved over the year I still think their defense is vulnerable and mistake prone. It only takes one mistake. But Denison and Kenyon were the quality of the NCAC and OWU went 3-0-1 vs them.
Snow is certain for the ONU site; Kenyon sits on a line that could go sleet, rain or snow. Enjoy!
Kenyon vs Calvin
Should be an Elite 8 or Final 4 matchup but somehow we get this in the 2nd round. Cruel for both teams to get this draw.
I think you'll see Calvin squeak this one out in OT 3-2.
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on November 12, 2022, 08:18:39 AM
Kenyon vs Calvin
Should be an Elite 8 or Final 4 matchup but somehow we get this in the 2nd round. Cruel for both teams to get this draw.
And last year Kenyon and Messiah met in the 2nd Round, and there's plenty of other examples over the years. Geography plays a big part, but also the ranking/selection criteria which, being too simplistic and formulaic/rigid, results in Calvin being ranked just 4th in their region (which who knows how and what that translates to in overall national seeding). Theoretically, having the #1 team in one region play the #4 team from another region in the second round (round of 32) really isn't out of line unless the #4 ranked team's region was identified as being stronger/deeper than most other regions in which case a Sweet 16 encounter would be appropriate. Last year Kenyon, #4 in their region, matched up with Messiah who was #1 in theirs, which means that game should have been a second round, maybe Sweet 16, match-up based on whatever formal or informal seeding that committee develops. Until the regional ranking and selection criteria allows for more subjectivity to recognize that even though a team didn't have the toughest schedule, they still are among the best teams in the nation, these sorts of first weekend match-ups will continue to occur in essence by design, not due to the misfortune of geography/travel considerations.
This is not your grandfather's Calvin team re: defense. They've conceded 22 goals and have just a few clean sheets. No comparison to the teams 4-5 years ago or the game these two played in the elite 8 in 2015. I just don't see Calvin's backs staying with the Kenyon forwards. Plus the one and two-touch play that the team excels at: they should break down Calvin's defense several times today.
#8 for Kenyon will not have as much time to d*ck around with the ball as he did yesterday. If he gets caught and stripped - Calvin on the counter will be deadly.
Game day! Good luck to all the players and coaches playing today and may the fans get to see some exciting and injury-free soccer!
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 11, 2022, 03:26:37 PM
What I don't understand as Calvin crushes a UAA team (showing they didn't belong in the tournament)
Um, no. Teams that belong in the tournament can have a bad day. Or the team they're playing can have a particularly good day. Or both. One game's results do not demonstrate that a team didn't belong in the tournament.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 11, 2022, 02:42:04 PM
This ref must have rabbit ears or something... Seems very worried about dissent (I guess) and he's given out a card to CMU already that looked like for dissent and now he's barking at the keeper. Like... They aren't wasting time, what could he possibly be getting into it with the goalie for there?
Lighten up, Francis.
Have you ever seen a good ref with rabbit ears? I can't recall it. In my experience, hypersensitivity is usually a near-perfect indicator that this ref is going to suck.
Yes enjoy the games today! Interested to hear any upset predictions/ unexpected results; mine are below:
- Aurora over Gust Adolphus
- Rowan over Middlebury
- Vassar over Babson
Games I'm looking most forward to are:
- UMHB vs Pac Lutheran
- Midd vs Rowan
- Williams vs nyu
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 12, 2022, 08:52:31 AM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on November 12, 2022, 08:18:39 AM
Kenyon vs Calvin
Should be an Elite 8 or Final 4 matchup but somehow we get this in the 2nd round. Cruel for both teams to get this draw.
And last year Kenyon and Messiah met in the 2nd Round, and there's plenty of other examples over the years. Geography plays a big part, but also the ranking/selection criteria which, being too simplistic and formulaic/rigid, results in Calvin being ranked just 4th in their region (which who knows how and what that translates to in overall national seeding). Theoretically, having the #1 team in one region play the #4 team from another region in the second round (round of 32) really isn't out of line unless the #4 ranked team's region was identified as being stronger/deeper than most other regions in which case a Sweet 16 encounter would be appropriate. Last year Kenyon, #4 in their region, matched up with Messiah who was #1 in theirs, which means that game should have been a second round, maybe Sweet 16, match-up based on whatever formal or informal seeding that committee develops. Until the regional ranking and selection criteria allows for more subjectivity to recognize that even though a team didn't have the toughest schedule, they still are among the best teams in the nation, these sorts of first weekend match-ups will continue to occur in essence by design, not due to the misfortune of geography/travel considerations.
Does anyone know how long the current format has been in effect? Because the regional-based format seems like something out of the 70s, when people only saw teams from within their region. It's time to modernize the format. I understand that there will still be an interest in minimizing travel expenses, which may cause good teams in some cases to face each other sooner than they otherwise should, but placing the #1 team in one region vs the #4 team in another is just silly.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 12, 2022, 08:52:31 AM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on November 12, 2022, 08:18:39 AM
Kenyon vs Calvin
Should be an Elite 8 or Final 4 matchup but somehow we get this in the 2nd round. Cruel for both teams to get this draw.
And last year Kenyon and Messiah met in the 2nd Round, and there's plenty of other examples over the years. Geography plays a big part, but also the ranking/selection criteria which, being too simplistic and formulaic/rigid, results in Calvin being ranked just 4th in their region (which who knows how and what that translates to in overall national seeding). Theoretically, having the #1 team in one region play the #4 team from another region in the second round (round of 32) really isn't out of line unless the #4 ranked team's region was identified as being stronger/deeper than most other regions in which case a Sweet 16 encounter would be appropriate. Last year Kenyon, #4 in their region, matched up with Messiah who was #1 in theirs, which means that game should have been a second round, maybe Sweet 16, match-up based on whatever formal or informal seeding that committee develops. Until the regional ranking and selection criteria allows for more subjectivity to recognize that even though a team didn't have the toughest schedule, they still are among the best teams in the nation, these sorts of first weekend match-ups will continue to occur in essence by design, not due to the misfortune of geography/travel considerations.
I have just emerged from my online blackbelt yoga/Buddhism class led by Saint of Old....and I am drenched in a deep and abiding acceptance.
Kenyon is national title (or at least Final 4) or bust (and no doubt same with Calvin) team. Sure, if Kenyon loses early I may have to absorb a few extra mini-revenge posts hurled my way, but big picture, I don't care one bit whether they lose now, or to W&L or CWRU next round or to Messiah (or whoever) in the Elite 8.
Do I think the draw (for both) was unfortunate? YES. Nefarious? NO. Calvin and OWU have played in the 2nd round several times. What is more questionable to me (and again, not nefarious) is putting these two in the same quad with Messiah. If one wants to argue that Stevens was more deserving than Kenyon for a #1 seed, OK. But then at least put Stevens and Kenyon in a quad together.
I personally don't care if it is a great game or not, but I think it will be. Calvin will be the best team Kenyon has played all season (maybe by far). Kenyon may not be the best team Calvin has faced, but the Owls also pose challenges the Knights haven't seen. If we all hadn't just watched Calvin decimate CMU I think most would see this as a toss-up or a lean Kenyon. Calvin has great talent all over the field, but I'm not sure the CMU match means much. Kenyon beat CWRU 4-0 and ONU 6-2.
Great energy, poise, and intense focus for 90 (or 110) minutes. No panic if go down 1-0, and no let-up if go up 2-0. Run through the tape as they say and live with the result.
Currently watching the Polar Bears on split screen with LIV-SOU. Bowdoin hosting the XC regionals as well as this pod. You can see the women's runners in the background of the game!
Oneonta all over NEC 4-0 17 mins into the match, yikes.
Oof, Merchant Marine takes a 1-0 lead on Bowdoin. Ball back to the goalkeeper was hopping but he misplayed the bounce and it went straight in. Didn't see that coming.
Quote from: blooter442 on November 12, 2022, 11:45:45 AM
Oof, Merchant Marine takes a 1-0 lead on Bowdoin. Ball back to the goalkeeper was hopping but he misplayed the bounce and it went straight in. Didn't see that coming.
Did it pop over his foot or over his head?
Quote from: Maine Soccer Fan on November 12, 2022, 11:48:18 AM
Quote from: blooter442 on November 12, 2022, 11:45:45 AM
Oof, Merchant Marine takes a 1-0 lead on Bowdoin. Ball back to the goalkeeper was hopping but he misplayed the bounce and it went straight in. Didn't see that coming.
Did it pop over his foot or over his head?
Under ..... his foot.
Husson v Amherst 11.12.2022
Saturday, November 12, 2022
11:02 AM
Game played on Gooding Field. Turf.
Amherst in White, Husson in Green.
Sounds windy. So bad I had to put it on mute.
Actually looks like this is the best scenario for Husson. Playing on a turf field, which looks like a full size field.
This looks like a classic game of Trees v. Trolls.
Husson tries to get the ball under control. Amherst tries to see if they can pass the ball to the International Space Station.
Amherst really pushing the ball forward and pinning Husson deep in their defensive third.
Amherst has the wind to their back the first half.
I have yet to see Amherst get the ball in the back, pass it to a midfielder, who passes it to a forward.
I don't think Amherst is comfortable with playing on turf. Lots of balls getting away from them.
Here is a scenario I can see playing out... granted only 14 minutes in. Husson holds Amherst scoreless in the half while battling the wind. Second half Husson scraps together a goal and Amherst can't equalize.
Husson Keeper is not bad.
20 minutes remain.
Amherst is getting some half opportunities that they can't convert.
Someone on Husson has the great burden of having the last name of Beckenbauer ... and he is from Munich.....
The wind is making it very difficult to judge the ball in the hair. For the Husson keeper right now, that is problematic.
15 minutes left in the half.
When Husson gets the ball under control, and plays, Amherst struggles.
Amherst makes a large number of subs with 13 minutes left.
Amherst makes hay of chaos on corner kicks which without a doubt are a nightmare to defend
Wow. Merchant Marine just scored with 11 minutes left in the game. Keeper takes a goal kick and is passed back. Ball goes under his foot for the go ahead goal. Keeper error
And the Husson Keeper just made a point blank save on Amherst. Ball put across and from 4 yards away the Husson Keeper stuffs a shot.
2 minutes left.
Husson needs halftime.
And halftime
At zeros.
Quote from: Buck O. on November 12, 2022, 10:44:12 AM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 12, 2022, 08:52:31 AM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on November 12, 2022, 08:18:39 AM
Kenyon vs Calvin
Should be an Elite 8 or Final 4 matchup but somehow we get this in the 2nd round. Cruel for both teams to get this draw.
And last year Kenyon and Messiah met in the 2nd Round, and there's plenty of other examples over the years. Geography plays a big part, but also the ranking/selection criteria which, being too simplistic and formulaic/rigid, results in Calvin being ranked just 4th in their region (which who knows how and what that translates to in overall national seeding). Theoretically, having the #1 team in one region play the #4 team from another region in the second round (round of 32) really isn't out of line unless the #4 ranked team's region was identified as being stronger/deeper than most other regions in which case a Sweet 16 encounter would be appropriate. Last year Kenyon, #4 in their region, matched up with Messiah who was #1 in theirs, which means that game should have been a second round, maybe Sweet 16, match-up based on whatever formal or informal seeding that committee develops. Until the regional ranking and selection criteria allows for more subjectivity to recognize that even though a team didn't have the toughest schedule, they still are among the best teams in the nation, these sorts of first weekend match-ups will continue to occur in essence by design, not due to the misfortune of geography/travel considerations.
Does anyone know how long the current format has been in effect? Because the regional-based format seems like something out of the 70s, when people only saw teams from within their region. It's time to modernize the format. I understand that there will still be an interest in minimizing travel expenses, which may cause good teams in some cases to face each other sooner than they otherwise should, but placing the #1 team in one region vs the #4 team in another is just silly.
There is
NO pre-established match-ups for the bracketing (e.g. #1 in Region A plays #4 in Region B, #2 in Region A plays . . .). I didn't mean to imply that with my post. I'm just saying that as the committee forms the brackets with geography/travel and overall seeding in mind, I think they probably try to keep higher seeds separated until at least the second weekend. The problem is that very good teams like Calvin this year and Kenyon last years ended up
not being among the higher seeds due to the math and the importance of SOS and RvR. In other words, using the pescribed criteria, Kenyon was probably between a #4 and #8 seed nationally, while Calvin might have only been in the 30's, high 20's at best. So there would have been no reason to try to avoid a match-up of the two teams in the second round.
No, the bracketing is
not based on regions at all anymore beyond the natural factor of geography/limiting travel. From the 70's through the mid-90's, the brackets were very structured with each region getting is own 4-team pod. And they would alternate which regions met in the quarterfinals to some extent, but New England would never face the West due to travel. This is all in the eras of 32-team or less tournament fields with just five rounds when the quarterfinals were a stand-alone match, not part of a 4-team weekend pod/sectional. Starting in 1997 when the field began expanding and automatic qualifiers (AQ) were introduced, the bracketing gradually became less and less tied to the formal regions and they began to intentionally mix up teams from different regions and to avoid pairing teams from the same conference (the latter recently became a requirement unless all-but impossible to avoid).
So what I am say is that the bracketing format is not the issue here. It's simply that the criteria and the math for the SOS and the importance of SOS and RvR in the ranking/selection process, with very limited room for subjectivity, means some teams will be under-ranked/under-seeded and others over-ranked/over-seeded, which will result in match-ups in the first weekend/second round that, at the least, should really only be occurring in the Sweet 16 if not the Elite 8. Sometimes they could even be worthy of the Final Four.
Lifted his foot and it went under I think.
Quote from: SimpleCoach on November 12, 2022, 11:49:07 AM
Quote from: Maine Soccer Fan on November 12, 2022, 11:48:18 AM
Quote from: blooter442 on November 12, 2022, 11:45:45 AM
Oof, Merchant Marine takes a 1-0 lead on Bowdoin. Ball back to the goalkeeper was hopping but he misplayed the bounce and it went straight in. Didn't see that coming.
Did it pop over his foot or over his head?
Under ..... his foot.
Shocking for the first team all-nescac gk selection... gotta feel for this kid if the game ends 1-0.
1-1. Bowdoin ties it on a scrappy goal.
Bowdoin just pulled one back. GK can breath again.
And Amherst finally on the board.
Amherst goal typical for them. Long throw in not cleared, bounces a couple of times, and hammered home.
Man, are they tough to watch. Playing on turf, wind blowing like crazy. Still continue to just bang long balls and long throws all game ???
Two in two for Bowdoin. What a free kick.
Quote from: paclassic89 on November 12, 2022, 12:28:39 PM
Man, are they tough to watch. Playing on turf, wind blowing like crazy. Still continue to just bang long balls and long throws all game ???
Agreed, but it works for them, and it gets in teams' heads when they play.
Bowdoin #10 with a left footed rip instead of trying to go over the wall. Both Bowdoin and Amherst lead after shakey first halves.
Quote from: blooter442 on November 12, 2022, 12:29:30 PM
Two in two for Bowdoin. What a free kick.
Surprised by a 4 man wall there. That's the most dangerous spot on the field -- 20 yards is enough to get a curl but also hit with power. Kicker had that corner way too easy.
Is it snowing at Kenyon?!? I couldn't twll if that was like a CGI/Hallmark movie kind of thing haha
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 12, 2022, 12:34:18 PM
Surprised by a 4 man wall there. That's the most dangerous spot on the field -- 20 yards is enough to get a curl but also hit with power. Kicker had that corner way too easy.
Yeah, he didn't have to go over the wall as would normally be required because he had the entire side. Perfect distance of around 22 yards from which to hit it. Still, it was an excellent finish, even if they gave him the open shot.
So Kenyon v. Calvin 2nd round was always going to be a classic NCAA game. Now the weather has just ensured that status without a doubt. Last game I saw like this @ the big dance was SLU v. Williams in Canton 1998.
Looking fwd to a wild ride!
Not sure what the hullabaloo is in Kenyon. Hopkins and Carroll played in a full on snow squall last year. :D
Calvin up 1 on a nice turn and finish about 8 yards out.
Husson 0 Amherst 2
I think I watched the same game that some others have been referring to, but not 100% sure. The good news is that if the other observers are correct then hopefully St Lawrence will be lulled into a false sense of security. A fair bit of rotating for the Mammoths and what were correctly described as windy conditions led to a disjointed affair. Husson were compact, but found it a challenge to spend much time in the Mammoths' half, but probably felt comfortable in the first half at least. Their keeper did make one nice save and was definitely the busier of the two.
Something closer to the regular Amherst starting line up started to appear ahead of half time and the ball began to move a bit more cleanly, but as sometimes happens, it's not an instant adjustment, unlike a situation in say something like the wrestling where a new entrant to the ring in a tag team can often be a "house of fire". For Amherst, it was more like a small outhouse of fire.
The second half looked a bit more convincing and I was reminded of the fact that it took Bowdoin almost an hour to break the deadlock when they played Husson, so part of me, whilst agitated, having got up at 3am to watch, was nevertheless still optimistic. The first goal was a little scrappy, what I did do after it went in was to check the bracket to see if such goals will allow you to progress. I couldn't see anything that suggested they don't, but understand there are many much more knowledgeable people who might know otherwise. The second goal was the end product of really nice work by one of the five Amherst players accorded NESCAC conference team honours and pretty much ended the game as a contest. Husson stuck to their task and whilst their ranking might have suggested an easier game for the Mammoths, ultimately it took time to grind them down and they deserve lots of credit.
For Amherst, pretty sure they wouldn't be happy overall with the way they played and it's safe to say that they can play much better. I did check though and Conn only got past Salem State on penalties in the same round last season. I haven't gone back to check the boards, but I presume no one was nominating them as likely winners after that. It's a funny game...
SLU plays one game at a time man.
Only way to approach the Tourney.
Only worried about Roger Williams right now.
Cold and flurries in St. Peter, MN today.
Gustavus comfortably in control with a little over 25 minutes remaining, up 2-0 over Aurora. Gustavus is without 2 regular starters due to red card suspension from the conference final game, but not missing a bit.
Stevens is down one to nil as the second half just kicking off.
Messiah 3-0
W&L 2-0
Bunch of other games tied at 0.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 12, 2022, 02:09:53 PM
Stevens is down one to nil as the second half just kicking off.
Messiah 3-0
W&L 2-0
Bunch of other games tied at 0.
You cheated Franciscan out of their goal. It was Messiah 3-1 at halftime. 4-1 now.
Messiah have not looked at particularly sharp and have had a lot of unforced errors and giveaways. I don't think they'll be all that happy with their performance today so far. Giving up that late first half goal almost seemed just reward for the Falcons' sloppiness. They'll have to be much sharper and precise tomorrow, and I'm sure they will be.
Calvin's goalie sent off. Going to be tough to come back from this against an excellent Kenyon team.
Now 2-0 Kenyon with about 25 to play. This game is over.
Stevens finally get their goal.
1-1 middle of the second half. Mighty Ducks have been dominating, with Worcester St. sitting in a low block. We'll see if they come out of their shell.
(BTW, the stream out of Kenyon had the score wrong for a VERY long time. Had Calvin up 1-0.)
F&M up 2-0 now.
If it's not obvious from Stevens and F&M feeds, it's absolutely gorgeous on the East Coast today. High 60s and mostly sunny up and down the seaboard.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 12, 2022, 02:35:53 PM
Stevens finally get their goal.
1-1 middle of the second half. Mighty Ducks have been dominating, with Worcester St. sitting in a low block. We'll see if they come out of their shell.
(BTW, the stream out of Kenyon had the score wrong for a VERY long time. Had Calvin up 1-0.)
And now Stevens up 2-1... Scramble in the box off of a free kick from 50 yards out.
W. St. just spending too much time in the low block. You can't give up fouls like that when you're in that posture.
Quote from: calvin_grad on November 12, 2022, 02:30:56 PM
Calvin's goalie sent off. Going to be tough to come back from this against an excellent Kenyon team.
Now 2-0 Kenyon with about 25 to play. This game is over.
Yeah, 3-0 now. 26 mins to go.
Quote from: calvin_grad on November 12, 2022, 02:30:56 PM
Calvin's goalie sent off. Going to be tough to come back from this against an excellent Kenyon team.
Now 2-0 Kenyon with about 25 to play. This game is over.
And now it's even more over. 3-0.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 12, 2022, 11:53:43 AM
Quote from: Buck O. on November 12, 2022, 10:44:12 AM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 12, 2022, 08:52:31 AM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on November 12, 2022, 08:18:39 AM
Kenyon vs Calvin
Should be an Elite 8 or Final 4 matchup but somehow we get this in the 2nd round. Cruel for both teams to get this draw.
And last year Kenyon and Messiah met in the 2nd Round, and there's plenty of other examples over the years. Geography plays a big part, but also the ranking/selection criteria which, being too simplistic and formulaic/rigid, results in Calvin being ranked just 4th in their region (which who knows how and what that translates to in overall national seeding). Theoretically, having the #1 team in one region play the #4 team from another region in the second round (round of 32) really isn't out of line unless the #4 ranked team's region was identified as being stronger/deeper than most other regions in which case a Sweet 16 encounter would be appropriate. Last year Kenyon, #4 in their region, matched up with Messiah who was #1 in theirs, which means that game should have been a second round, maybe Sweet 16, match-up based on whatever formal or informal seeding that committee develops. Until the regional ranking and selection criteria allows for more subjectivity to recognize that even though a team didn't have the toughest schedule, they still are among the best teams in the nation, these sorts of first weekend match-ups will continue to occur in essence by design, not due to the misfortune of geography/travel considerations.
Does anyone know how long the current format has been in effect? Because the regional-based format seems like something out of the 70s, when people only saw teams from within their region. It's time to modernize the format. I understand that there will still be an interest in minimizing travel expenses, which may cause good teams in some cases to face each other sooner than they otherwise should, but placing the #1 team in one region vs the #4 team in another is just silly.
There is NO pre-established match-ups for the bracketing (e.g. #1 in Region A plays #4 in Region B, #2 in Region A plays . . .). I didn't mean to imply that with my post. I'm just saying that as the committee forms the brackets with geography/travel and overall seeding in mind, I think they probably try to keep higher seeds separated until at least the second weekend. The problem is that very good teams like Calvin this year and Kenyon last years ended up not being among the higher seeds due to the math and the importance of SOS and RvR. In other words, using the pescribed criteria, Kenyon was probably between a #4 and #8 seed nationally, while Calvin might have only been in the 30's, high 20's at best. So there would have been no reason to try to avoid a match-up of the two teams in the second round.
No, the bracketing is not based on regions at all anymore beyond the natural factor of geography/limiting travel. From the 70's through the mid-90's, the brackets were very structured with each region getting is own 4-team pod. And they would alternate which regions met in the quarterfinals to some extent, but New England would never face the West due to travel. This is all in the eras of 32-team or less tournament fields with just five rounds when the quarterfinals were a stand-alone match, not part of a 4-team weekend pod/sectional. Starting in 1997 when the field began expanding and automatic qualifiers (AQ) were introduced, the bracketing gradually became less and less tied to the formal regions and they began to intentionally mix up teams from different regions and to avoid pairing teams from the same conference (the latter recently became a requirement unless all-but impossible to avoid).
So what I am say is that the bracketing format is not the issue here. It's simply that the criteria and the math for the SOS and the importance of SOS and RvR in the ranking/selection process, with very limited room for subjectivity, means some teams will be under-ranked/under-seeded and others over-ranked/over-seeded, which will result in match-ups in the first weekend/second round that, at the least, should really only be occurring in the Sweet 16 if not the Elite 8. Sometimes they could even be worthy of the Final Four.
Thanks for the clarification. But I still think that in the procedure needs to be revamped (for generally the same reasons you cite).
Franciscan GK keeping the scoreline respectable. And Franciscan has had two golden chances against the run of play to pull a goal back and shot just wide both times. The game lost whatever edge it ever did have fairly early once Messiah went up 2-0 and even franciscan's late first half goal didn't really change that. Not really the tune-up match for tomorrow's opponent that the Falcons would have wanted, and they'll need to be a lot sharper tomorrow.
Quote from: blooter442 on November 12, 2022, 11:20:24 AM
Currently watching the Polar Bears on split screen with LIV-SOU. Bowdoin hosting the XC regionals as well as this pod. You can see the women's runners in the background of the game!
It was a throughly enjoyable three ring circus at the Bowdoin athletic complex today. The Bowdoin v Merchant Marine game kicked off just after the starting gun sounded for the D3 Region 1 X-C championships, with several hundred women racing around the mens soccer field. In another corner of the complex the Bowdoin women's rugby team was playing a semi-final game.
Add to that the wild weather...which started out warm, cloudy and misty before giving way to an absolute deluge for 10 minutes of the first half...followed by bright sunshine, wind and 70 degree temps during the second half. You can't beat New England fall weather!
Tufts and UMASS-B are tied. Seems a pretty one-sided affair, but Tufts can't seem to crack them.
Mighty Ducks salt it away on a breakaway... 3-1 with under 5 mins.
Washington and Lee move on, 5-1.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 12, 2022, 02:55:05 PM
Tufts and UMASS-B are tied. Seems a pretty one-sided affair, but Tufts can't seem to crack them.
Two Boston-area teams playing in Oneonta. Meanwhile, it's 75 degrees and sunny at Bello. Would have been an unsurpassed day to catch a game. (Sigh.)
Quote from: Buck O. on November 12, 2022, 03:09:00 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 12, 2022, 02:55:05 PM
Tufts and UMASS-B are tied. Seems a pretty one-sided affair, but Tufts can't seem to crack them.
Two Boston-area teams playing in Oneonta. Meanwhile, it's 75 degrees and sunny at Bello. Would have been an unsurpassed day to catch a game. (Sigh.)
Literally as I clicked on Post, Tufts takes the lead, 1-0.
Kenyon advances 4-0 over Calvin. Embarrassing way to end the season. Finished the last 25 minutes of the game with 9 men. Hopefully this bad taste fuels them this off season for next year. Absolutely need to improve the defense for next year to have any chance of competing for a national title.
Quote from: calvin_grad on November 12, 2022, 03:19:52 PM
Kenyon advances 4-0 over Calvin. Embarrassing way to end the season. Finished the last 25 minutes of the game with 9 men. Hopefully this bad taste fuels them this off season for next year. Absolutely need to improve the defense for next year to have any chance of competing for a national title.
I just got finished saying that you can't judge a team by one game, so I won't judge Calvin by one game. But I sure didn't see much from them this afternoon. I only saw parts of the game, but 4-0 fairly reflects the parts I saw.
The much talked about SLU-RW game is still knotted at 0's... Under 10 minutes...
Sibonda (sp) is very fun to watch.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 12, 2022, 03:32:58 PM
The much talked about SLU-RW game is still knotted at 0's... Under 10 minutes...
Sibonda (sp) is very fun to watch.
Oh, and Vassar just tied things up against Babson.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 12, 2022, 03:32:58 PM
The much talked about SLU-RW game is still knotted at 0's... Under 10 minutes...
Sibonda (sp) is very fun to watch.
Going to OT in Amherst
I mentioned at some point that Penn St. Harrisburg is a tough out. They gave Hopkins all they wanted and more in last year's first round. They have tied OWU and that game is very late in the 2nd.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 12, 2022, 03:43:16 PM
I mentioned at some point that Penn St. Harrisburg is a tough out. They gave Hopkins all they wanted and more in last year's first round. They have tied OWU and that game is very late in the 2nd.
Wow. PK (legit) called with 1:14 left... What a dagger.
Quote from: Buck O. on November 12, 2022, 03:31:49 PM
Quote from: calvin_grad on November 12, 2022, 03:19:52 PM
Kenyon advances 4-0 over Calvin. Embarrassing way to end the season. Finished the last 25 minutes of the game with 9 men. Hopefully this bad taste fuels them this off season for next year. Absolutely need to improve the defense for next year to have any chance of competing for a national title.
I just got finished saying that you can't judge a team by one game, so I won't judge Calvin by one game. But I sure didn't see much from them this afternoon. I only saw parts of the game, but 4-0 fairly reflects the parts I saw.
Most uninspiring performance I have seen from Calvin this year.
SC.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 12, 2022, 03:47:22 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 12, 2022, 03:43:16 PM
I mentioned at some point that Penn St. Harrisburg is a tough out. They gave Hopkins all they wanted and more in last year's first round. They have tied OWU and that game is very late in the 2nd.
Wow. PK (legit) called with 1:14 left... What a dagger.
OWU looking to kill this one off. Up 2-1 with about 2:30 left in OT2.
PKs in Amherst.
And now we'e in PKs at Bowdoin.
I just flipped over there... No lights and it seems like it might actually be an issue. Weather rolled in up NE way and it is DARK.
ETA - They are moving the PKs over to a light field. No way to broadcast it, so we'll need LiveStats to step up.
Parts of today's Calvin/Kenyon game that I anticipated - Kenyon's forwards being too quick and getting behind Calvin's backs - resulted in a goal and RC. After the RC , the game tilted surprisingly towards Calvin - I really didn't know what Kenyon was trying to do - maybe they were really caught off guard to be a man up? After half Kenyon regained their composure.
But wanted to point out #15's defense against #7 of Calvin. First 10-15 minutes saw #7 have the most time on the ball as he did all game. As Kenyon denied him possession Calvin switched him to the right wing and #15 switched with him. RC certainly changed the game for both sides, but #15 deserves a shout out.
Surprised the ref's cards didn't burst into flames given how frequently he used them. Could have used the warmth . . .
Catholic beating Lynchburg 1-0
Lynchburg attacking very well and slicing through Catholics non-existing midfield.
Back four for Catholic and the goalkeeper under a lot of pressure the first 20 minutes in the half.
Here is what I have been saying. When you don't play second ball, meaning you are very intentional with your passes/headers/clearances, it makes it difficult for Catholic to get anything going on the attack.
Best player on the field for Catholic is #7. Just got fouled for a dangerous free kick for Catholic that resulted in the first shot wide of frame for Catholic.
Catholic lacking the imagination when a soccer game breaks out. Keep trying to go long down the wings and it's not there.
What is dangerous about Catholic is that when they do get to the goal, they can be lethal.
Lynchburg is playing the ball short. Making Catholic chase the ball which they don't do well at.
Lynchburg need to stay patient and not try to force the ball up top.
And against the run of play, Catholic gets the go ahead goal. Dead ball played to back post and is headed into the back of the net.
Catholic 1, Lynchburg 0.
And now Catholic is feeling it. Starting to take some initiative and Lynchburg has lost their poise.
I like the Lynchburg Keeper. Very good vision and very good with his feet.
Tables have turned on Lynchburg. Catholic playing with confidence and Lynchburg playing into Catholics chaos.
Lynchburg has a player who has a pretty impressive long throw.
Halftime.
Kind of puzzled that Bowdoin doesn't have Whittier field (football/lax turf) lined for soccer; curious to see where they do PKs since (unlike Amherst/Bates/Wesleyan/etc.) they don't have a turf alternative for Pickard unless I am mistaken. Maybe Whittier is a bit narrow? If not, seems like a missed opportunity.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 12, 2022, 04:30:44 PM
I just flipped over there... No lights and it seems like it might actually be an issue. Weather rolled in up NE way and it is DARK.
No weather, we're just the furthest east state so it gets dark early. ;) Folks at the west end of time zones beg for standard time all year, but most of us would prefer the opposite, as it gets dark ~4-4:30 for a good couple of months.
Quote from: blooter442 on November 12, 2022, 04:43:19 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 12, 2022, 04:30:44 PM
I just flipped over there... No lights and it seems like it might actually be an issue. Weather rolled in up NE way and it is DARK.
No weather, we're just the furthest east state so it gets dark early. ;) Folks at the west end of time zones beg for daylight savings all year, but most of us would prefer the opposite, as it gets dark ~4-4:30 for a good couple of months.
If we had DST now, it wouldn't get dark until 5-5:30.
Anyway, it looks like Vassar advances, 3-1 on PKs.
Quote from: Buck O. on November 12, 2022, 04:47:12 PM
If we had DST now, it wouldn't get dark until 5-5:30.
Anyway, it looks like Vassar advances, 3-1 on PKs.
Sorry, people in TN would prefer
standard time all year.
Very disappointing for my team. It's almost better I didn't get a chance to witness the PKs. 1 for 4? I'll bet at least one wasn't even on frame.
Once I saw that they weren't going to get goal #2 in regular play the fatalist in me kinda knew we were doomed. The history of Babson in PKs through the years is littered with losses.
Nevertheless I'm glad the team made it to the "final 64".
Quote from: BaboNation on November 12, 2022, 04:54:33 PM
Very disappointing for my team. It's almost better I didn't get a chance to witness the PKs. 1 for 4? I'll bet at least one wasn't even on frame.
Once I saw that they weren't going to get goal #2 in regular play the fatalist in me kinda knew we were doomed. The history of Babson in PKs through the years is littered with losses.
Nevertheless I'm glad the team made it to the "final 64".
No shame Brother. Babson is a quality program, proved once again by these boyz in the dance.
Sometimes you get quality teams in the first round, sometimes you tie the game, get knocked out in penalties.
I have had experience where dropping out like this fuels some big time fire for greater future runs.
I know what you mean... SLU has super bad luck with penalties through the years as well.
Keep your head up Babson nation.
Quote from: Domino1195 on November 12, 2022, 04:34:14 PM
Parts of today's Calvin/Kenyon game that I anticipated - Kenyon's forwards being too quick and getting behind Calvin's backs - resulted in a goal and RC. After the RC , the game tilted surprisingly towards Calvin - I really didn't know what Kenyon was trying to do - maybe they were really caught off guard to be a man up? After half Kenyon regained their composure.
But wanted to point out #15's defense against #7 of Calvin. First 10-15 minutes saw #7 have the most time on the ball as he did all game. As Kenyon denied him possession Calvin switched him to the right wing and #15 switched with him. RC certainly changed the game for both sides, but #15 deserves a shout out.
Surprised the ref's cards didn't burst into flames given how frequently he used them. Could have used the warmth . . .
Good observations, Domino.
#15 is last year's AA at right back, Luke Muther. Looks like he's finally healthy...and also got the assist on the first goal. I expected Muther might switch sides if needed and Brown switched him late in the Greenville game maybe just as a prep for today. Akintade is a great player who was kept in check. CB Nyugen also did a fantastic job sticking with Schau. Very, very smart coaching moves by Brown.
I didn't love how the Owls played the latter part of the 1st half and portions of the 2nd half, and Brown went to the subs in the 2nd half including for the two CBs much sooner than I was comfortable with. Calvin just needed to get one goal to have some belief, certainly at 2-0 and even at 3-0 and I know how quickly they can score. They had chances especially on medium to long free kicks even down two men.
Obviously relieved and glad to get to next week. Huge win for Brown and the team with a ton of pressure on them. And...similar to the golden goal thing....playing before everyone else feels great when you're the first team in the Sweet 16 and can now just enjoy the rest of the games today and tomorrow....and not so great if you lose and are out before most teams have even kicked off for Round 1.
UWEC advances!
Quote from: blooter442 on November 12, 2022, 04:43:19 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 12, 2022, 04:30:44 PM
I just flipped over there... No lights and it seems like it might actually be an issue. Weather rolled in up NE way and it is DARK.
No weather, we're just the furthest east state so it gets dark early. ;) Folks at the west end of time zones beg for standard time all year, but most of us would prefer the opposite, as it gets dark ~4-4:30 for a good couple of months.
Might've been the Amherst broadcaster, but someone mentioned weather rolling in.
Some good evening games going on right now. NYU/Williams 1-1 and Rowan/Middlebury 3-2
Hopkins is up 2-0 at half. Pretty dominant, as expected.
2nd goal... I hate to pick on goalies, but I don't understand how he got beat near side on that. Was very surprised it was in the back of the net, given the expected angles.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 12, 2022, 05:13:41 PM
UWEC advances!
3-1 was the score
Was very cold and we weren't the ones in shorts! UWEC scored in the first 2 minutes and then gave one up almost right away. Second goal was a header from our dominant center forward Donovan. Went to half 2-1 and it stayed that way for much of the game. UWEC sprung Donovan late with the long ball to put them up 3-1. Didn't like how the boys played for much of the second half as we were giving up lots of chances and not possessing but obviously happy with the win.
Quote from: paclassic89 on November 12, 2022, 05:35:25 PM
Some good evening games going on right now. NYU/Williams 1-1 and Rowan/Middlebury 3-2
Rowan playing the role of bracket-buster if that score stands.
Two minutes to go. Williams ending regulation in a tie! Color me shocked!!!
Some great soccer today. Cortland looks great. But I'm also not too familiar with Medaille.
Upset alert! Rowan over Middlebury. 3-2
Quote from: blooter442 on November 12, 2022, 04:41:47 PM
Kind of puzzled that Bowdoin doesn't have Whittier field (football/lax turf) lined for soccer; curious to see where they do PKs since (unlike Amherst/Bates/Wesleyan/etc.) they don't have a turf alternative for Pickard unless I am mistaken. Maybe Whittier is a bit narrow? If not, seems like a missed opportunity.
Bowdoin men's and women's soccer fields have natural grass and don't have lights. Both fields are great but require playing in daylight. They are undertaking a revamp of the facilities to add lights for next year.
The Babson/Vassar game was delayed due to a serious injury suffered by a Merchant Marine player late in the Bowdoin/Merchant Marine game. Ambulance had to be called and there was a significant game delay. That plus the Vassar/Babson game going to OT caused the PKs to be moved to the women's field where portable lights were installed.
I watched Vassar/Babson and it was a real battle--a fun game to watch as a disinterested observer. It appeared Babson's strategy in PKs was to kick in the upper corners, and they missed several kicks over the crossbar. The Vassar GK played a good game but is not huge, and it seemed to affect Babson's PK strategy.
Really hope the injured Merchant Marine player is ok. Wishing that everyone stays healthy throuh the tournament.
Quote from: Yankeesoccerdad on November 12, 2022, 06:25:16 PM
Quote from: blooter442 on November 12, 2022, 04:41:47 PM
Kind of puzzled that Bowdoin doesn't have Whittier field (football/lax turf) lined for soccer; curious to see where they do PKs since (unlike Amherst/Bates/Wesleyan/etc.) they don't have a turf alternative for Pickard unless I am mistaken. Maybe Whittier is a bit narrow? If not, seems like a missed opportunity.
Bowdoin men's and women's soccer fields have natural grass and don't have lights. Both fields are great but require playing in daylight. They are undertaking a revamp of the facilities to add lights for next year.
The Babson/Vassar game was delayed due to a serious injury suffered by a Merchant Marine player late in the Bowdoin/Merchant Marine game. Ambulance had to be called and there was a significant game delay. That plus the Vassar/Babson game going to OT caused the PKs to be moved to the women's field where portable lights were installed.
I watched Vassar/Babson and it was a real battle--a fun game to watch as a disinterested observer. It appeared Babson's strategy in PKs was to kick in the upper corners, and they missed several kicks over the crossbar. The Vassar GK played a good game but is not huge, and it seemed to affect Babson's PK strategy.
Really hope the injured Merchant Marine player is ok. Wishing that everyone stays healthy throuh the tournament.
100% YSD, whilst we can and will get overexcited and distraught (regularly within the same game) about results, serious injuries are another thing altogether. Fingers crossed for a quick & speedy recovery, if one is required.
I wasn't watching the game, but surprised to see that Chicago is still scoreless against Birmingham-Southern. BSU has 7 shots, 4 SOG. There were a lot of unexpectedly close games at halftime today, and a good number that favorites that left. Certainly expect Chicago to win this.
Muhlenberg is the big surprise of the day, knocking off Case Western in PK's. Case wasn't exactly expected to go real deep in the tournament, but Muhlenberg (now 9-5-7) wasn't even supposed to be here if F&M and Johns Hopkins had taken care of business in the Centennial playoffs.
Yes, we don't want to see anyone get injured. It appeared to be a serious head injury. They took a long time getting one attendant out, then two, then three, then a cart...before they finally got the ambulance in with the elevating stretcher. I just hope the lapse of time (10+ minutes in my estimation) did not have a deleterious effect on the player's health...
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 12, 2022, 07:13:13 PM
I wasn't watching the game, but surprised to see that Chicago is still scoreless against Birmingham-Southern. BSU has 7 shots, 4 SOG. There were a lot of unexpectedly close games at halftime today, and a good number that favorites that left. Certainly expect Chicago to win this.
Unsurprisingly, it didn't take Chicago long after the break to open up the scoring. 1-0 for the Maroons.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 12, 2022, 07:13:13 PM
I wasn't watching the game, but surprised to see that Chicago is still scoreless against Birmingham-Southern. BSU has 7 shots, 4 SOG. There were a lot of unexpectedly close games at halftime today, and a good number that favorites that left. Certainly expect Chicago to win this.
Muhlenberg is the big surprise of the day, knocking off Case Western in PK's. Case wasn't exactly expected to go real deep in the tournament, but Muhlenberg (now 9-5-7) wasn't even supposed to be here if F&M and Johns Hopkins had taken care of business in the Centennial playoffs.
Great for the Muhls!! Tomorrow is going to really tough considering how much offense W&L has been generating. Almost Messiah level.
MHB field looks fantastic...at first glance I thought it was grass with no divots or bad spots anywhere and now thinking must be turf. Couldn't find an answer on their website.
Chapman leads St Thomas 1-0 around 60th min...
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 12, 2022, 07:27:04 PM
MHB field looks fantastic...at first glance I thought it was grass with no divots or bad spots anywhere and now thinking must be turf. Couldn't find an answer on their website.
Chapman leads St Thomas 1-0 around 60th min...
Chapman scored very early (12th minute) and was holding on, but St. Thomas's Aleman just scored his 17th to tie it up at 1-1.
The MHB field is grass. That's what grass looks like in Texas. They use a different type than is used in the Northeast and Midwest
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 12, 2022, 02:25:32 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 12, 2022, 02:09:53 PM
Stevens is down one to nil as the second half just kicking off.
Messiah 3-0
W&L 2-0
Bunch of other games tied at 0.
You cheated Franciscan out of their goal. It was Messiah 3-1 at halftime. 4-1 now.
Messiah have not looked at particularly sharp and have had a lot of unforced errors and giveaways. I don't think they'll be all that happy with their performance today so far. Giving up that late first half goal almost seemed just reward for the Falcons' sloppiness. They'll have to be much sharper and precise tomorrow, and I'm sure they will be.
Had to watch this one online today - and I would agree - Messiah was not as sharp as usual. Saying that, one of my favorite parts of the game were the player introductions. Adam Carter , a back up GK for Messiah has some All American hair going.....looking like Ivan Drago from Rocky IV grew a mullet. In addition to the hair - that kid looks like a unit....had to do a little research on him - a product of the DA, and I understand he is a redshirt Freshman. Seems as if Messiah has some talent in the holster. Looking forward to seeing that kid between the pipes....
Quote from: Kuiper on November 12, 2022, 07:33:39 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 12, 2022, 07:27:04 PM
MHB field looks fantastic...at first glance I thought it was grass with no divots or bad spots anywhere and now thinking must be turf. Couldn't find an answer on their website.
Chapman leads St Thomas 1-0 around 60th min...
Chapman scored very early (12th minute) and was holding on, but St. Thomas's Aleman just scored his 17th to tie it up at 1-1.
The MHB field is grass. That's what grass looks like in Texas. They use a different type than is used in the Northeast and Midwest
Do you think it's better or worse? And do they tend to hard fields?
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 12, 2022, 07:37:48 PM
Quote from: Kuiper on November 12, 2022, 07:33:39 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 12, 2022, 07:27:04 PM
MHB field looks fantastic...at first glance I thought it was grass with no divots or bad spots anywhere and now thinking must be turf. Couldn't find an answer on their website.
Chapman leads St Thomas 1-0 around 60th min...
Chapman scored very early (12th minute) and was holding on, but St. Thomas's Aleman just scored his 17th to tie it up at 1-1.
The MHB field is grass. That's what grass looks like in Texas. They use a different type than is used in the Northeast and Midwest
Do you think it's better or worse? And do they tend to hard fields?
The ground is certainly harder than fields in parts of the country that get tons of rain. Very short grass. You find it in Arizona fields too and in some places in Southern California. Sometimes, they interweave some artificial turf with the grass to help fill it in a bit, but I don't think that's the case here (could be wrong). It's basically grass designed to withstand drought conditions, so it's hardy, but not particularly lush or soft if you are sliding on it.
Shout out to Catholic on a well deserved result despite SC's less than flattering first half analysis. Catholic ended up outshooting Lynchburg 15-11, Hornets only ended up with 3 shots on goal for the day, not bad for a chaotic team with an unorganized defense and no midfield. First goal for Catholic came off a free kick about 30 yards out, really nice diagonal ball and headed into the opposite side of the net. Second goal came with about 20 minutes left in the match on a really good strike into the side net from 20 yards out by their all conference center mid, Caltabiano (#24). Only Catholics second ncaa tournament victory in program history (first in 2014). Tough test vs host CNU but honestly think it will be a very competitive game, I wasn't too impressed with the Captains today vs Rosemont.
St. Thomas's Taty Aleman is pulled down in the box on a breakaway and it goes from bad to worse for Chapman. Aleman buries the PK (for goal # 18 on the season) to give St. Thomas a 2-1 lead with 9 minutes left and the Chapman defender is sent off with either a red or second yellow.
North Central locked up in 1-1 deadlock with Wisc-Superior...around 65th
This Chicago game is a little too close...I don't doubt the outcome, but does it mean anything? Might be fortunate they got the quad they did...
Quote from: LetteroftheLaw on November 12, 2022, 07:45:58 PM
Shout out to Catholic on a well deserved result despite SC's less than flattering first half analysis. Catholic ended up outshooting Lynchburg 15-11, Hornets only ended up with 3 shots on goal for the day, not bad for a chaotic team with an unorganized defense and no midfield. First goal for Catholic came off a free kick about 30 yards out, really nice diagonal ball and headed into the opposite side of the net. Second goal came with about 20 minutes left in the match on a really good strike into the side net from 20 yards out by their all conference center mid, Caltabiano (#24). Only Catholics second ncaa tournament victory in program history (first in 2014). Tough test vs host CNU but honestly think it will be a very competitive game, I wasn't too impressed with the Captains today vs Rosemont.
Saw 1st half of Catholic / Lynchburg game in person. Lynchburg looked better most of the half. Catholic had some nice moments. Catholic's 1st goal off a free kick that looked like it actually came of the Catholic's player's shoulder (but they all count the same).
As for the CNU game, I was there for the entire game, CNU with 28 shots to 8 and the Rosemont keeper made multiple incredible saves to keep them in the game. Rosemont rarely made it past mid field with any possession.
Quote from: Saint of Old on November 12, 2022, 04:59:31 PM
Quote from: BaboNation on November 12, 2022, 04:54:33 PM
Very disappointing for my team. It's almost better I didn't get a chance to witness the PKs. 1 for 4? I'll bet at least one wasn't even on frame.
Once I saw that they weren't going to get goal #2 in regular play the fatalist in me kinda knew we were doomed. The history of Babson in PKs through the years is littered with losses.
Nevertheless I'm glad the team made it to the "final 64".
No shame Brother. Babson is a quality program, proved once again by these boyz in the dance.
Sometimes you get quality teams in the first round, sometimes you tie the game, get knocked out in penalties.
I have had experience where dropping out like this fuels some big time fire for greater future runs.
I know what you mean... SLU has super bad luck with penalties through the years as well.
Keep your head up Babson nation.
This screws up what would have been a cool narrative for tomorrow's game. If it had been Bowdoin vs. Babson, Michael Webber is Bowdoin's keeper; his father Steve, who was an All-American keeper at Babson, is one of Babson's assistant coaches.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 12, 2022, 08:00:08 PM
This Chicago game is a little too close...I don't doubt the outcome, but does it mean anything? Might be fortunate they got the quad they did...
Chicago's players took that last post a little personally and scored a second to make it 2-0
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 12, 2022, 07:57:50 PM
North Central locked up in 1-1 deadlock with Wisc-Superior...around 65th
Looks to be snowing pretty heavily.
Quote from: Kuiper on November 12, 2022, 08:05:13 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 12, 2022, 08:00:08 PM
This Chicago game is a little too close...I don't doubt the outcome, but does it mean anything? Might be fortunate they got the quad they did...
Chicago's players took that last post a little personally and scored a second to make it 2-0
And now BSU scores to make for a more interesting final 4:26. Chicago up 2-1.
Quote from: MessageBoardMessi on November 12, 2022, 07:36:41 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 12, 2022, 02:25:32 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 12, 2022, 02:09:53 PM
Stevens is down one to nil as the second half just kicking off.
Messiah 3-0
W&L 2-0
Bunch of other games tied at 0.
You cheated Franciscan out of their goal. It was Messiah 3-1 at halftime. 4-1 now.
Messiah have not looked at particularly sharp and have had a lot of unforced errors and giveaways. I don't think they'll be all that happy with their performance today so far. Giving up that late first half goal almost seemed just reward for the Falcons' sloppiness. They'll have to be much sharper and precise tomorrow, and I'm sure they will be.
Had to watch this one online today - and I would agree - Messiah was not as sharp as usual. Saying that, one of my favorite parts of the game were the player introductions. Adam Carter , a back up GK for Messiah has some All American hair going.....looking like Ivan Drago from Rocky IV grew a mullet. In addition to the hair - that kid looks like a unit....had to do a little research on him - a product of the DA, and I understand he is a redshirt Freshman. Seems as if Messiah has some talent in the holster. Looking forward to seeing that kid between the pipes....
This reminds me of a joke I played on our college coach. I was an assistant coach at the time. I went online and found a redshirt freshman goalkeeper from North Carolina. He was a high school all American. I used his name through the contact us part of our college men's soccer website for finding out more information and to be part of the program.
I made up a whole back story why I was coming to the area and leaving North Carolina. He went pretty crazy a few hours later and called me all excited. I felt bad after a few minutes so I had to tell him it was made up.
And North Central is down to 10 men with 15 minutes remaining in regulation.
Quote from: Buck O. on November 12, 2022, 08:12:42 PM
And North Central is down to 10 men with 15 minutes remaining in regulation.
And now UW-Superior, with the man advantage, goes up 2-1 with under 5 to play.
UPSET ALERT: UW-Superior leads North Central 2-1, knocking in a rebound after the keeper spilled a free kick.
But 10-man North Central ties it up with 2:15 left.
And a minute later the Cardinals score again! Lead 3-2! Wow!
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 12, 2022, 08:33:26 PM
But 10-man North Central ties it up with 2:15 left.
And a minute later the Cardinals score again! Lead 3-2! Wow!
This ending is nuts.
Gutsy effort by N. Central....2 minutes away from an embarassing exit and earlier they had seemed to be melting down.
Game over. North Central survive; win 3-2. Keep undefeated season going. Wild finish to the game!
Quote from: Buck O. on November 12, 2022, 08:34:48 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 12, 2022, 08:33:26 PM
But 10-man North Central ties it up with 2:15 left.
And a minute later the Cardinals score again! Lead 3-2! Wow!
This ending is nuts.
Indeed. I tuned in just in time to see the ending.
Just happened to tune into the north central game for the last ten minutes. Killer saves too for the uw- superior keeper as well to keep it 2-1. Two were world class. Then the ending.
Quote from: Buck O. on November 12, 2022, 08:12:42 PM
And North Central is down to 10 men with 15 minutes remaining in regulation.
They won with 2 goals in the 89 minute...3-2 North Central
The games in Texas have been chippy (or maybe worse) tonight. There was almost a fight in the Chapman-St. Thomas game that led to at least one card and in the Pacific Lutheran-Mary Hardin-Baylor game there was just about a full on brawl and they've cut off the video and called a break in the action to review the film to decide whether a punch was thrown. PLU is up 1-0 right now halfway through the first half.
Quote from: Kuiper on November 12, 2022, 09:26:11 PM
The games in Texas have been chippy (or maybe worse) tonight. There was almost a fight in the Chapman-St. Thomas game that led to at least one card and in the Pacific Lutheran-Mary Hardin-Baylor game there was just about a full on brawl and they've cut off the video and called a break in the action to review the film to decide whether a punch was thrown. PLU is up 1-0 right now halfway through the first half.
Why cut off the video? It's not like it's going to incite us.
Quote from: Buck O. on November 12, 2022, 09:36:13 PM
Quote from: Kuiper on November 12, 2022, 09:26:11 PM
The games in Texas have been chippy (or maybe worse) tonight. There was almost a fight in the Chapman-St. Thomas game that led to at least one card and in the Pacific Lutheran-Mary Hardin-Baylor game there was just about a full on brawl and they've cut off the video and called a break in the action to review the film to decide whether a punch was thrown. PLU is up 1-0 right now halfway through the first half.
Why cut off the video? It's not like it's going to incite us.
No idea.
St. Olaf making quick work of Lake Forest. Up 4-0 within the first 20 minutes.
St. Olaf already up 4-0 over Lake Forest and the play is as one-sided as the score.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 12, 2022, 02:36:35 PM
F&M up 2-0 now.
If it's not obvious from Stevens and F&M feeds, it's absolutely gorgeous on the East Coast today. High 60s and mostly sunny up and down the seaboard.
More than gorgeous, incredible for a mid Nov game. A bit colder tomorrow.
F&M had to work for it. Did not score till the 53 min. USJ CT is a crafty team. They might have something going and only 5 years old.
On to SUNY Cortland.
It's interesting that Mary Hardin-Baylor and Pacific Lutheran are playing each other in the 1st Round of both the men's and women's tournaments, with the same scheduled start time (7:30 pm CT)*, just two hours driving distance apart.
* - the women's game had a late start because the earlier game went to PK's.
Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 12, 2022, 09:59:37 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 12, 2022, 02:36:35 PM
If it's not obvious from Stevens and F&M feeds, it's absolutely gorgeous on the East Coast today. High 60s and mostly sunny up and down the seaboard.
More than gorgeous, incredible for a mid Nov game. A bit colder tomorrow.
Yeah, here south central PA it was very nice. Sunny in the morning thru to the 1:00 pm start times when it turned overcast, but temps were comfortable in the 60's throughout most of the afternoon. After all the concern about the weather, it wasn't really an issue. I don't think we got as much rain as thought possible on Friday, so field conditions weren't as much of an issue as they might have been. Messiah's grass field has been in really good shape, so it handled the rain fairly well even though I did notice occasional footing issues throughout the games.
Pacific Lutheran - Mary Hardin-Baylor was a barn burner as promised. After a slow start, defenses became optional. Pac Lutheran won 4-2
The Northwest Conference has represented itself. Right after the Pacific Lutheran 4-2 win, Willamette beats UW Platteville 3-1
North Park had no issues with taking down Rose-Hulman in sleety, windy Ada, OH today, 3-1, as the Engineers goal really came too late to matter. I was only able to watch a little of it, since I was calling a women's basketball game at NPU at the same time the soccer game was going on in the Eastern time zone. But at one timeout in the basketball game, having read all of my ad copy for the half, I clicked on the soccer livestream for about fifteen seconds and was treated to the second Vikings goal, a beaut set up by Noel Holm and finished by Isak Flo.
For a while I thought that the opponent NPU was likely to face tomorrow would be Mount Aloysius rather than Ohio Northern, as the Mounties put up a fair bid to manufacture a huge upset over the home team of the pod. Ohio Northern led most of the second half afer a 58th-minute goal, but the Mounties never wavered from their classic inferior-team strategy, sitting back deep and keeping the ball out of the middle of the pitch on a day in which the wind was knocking down airborne crosses, countering when the opportunity was there but resisting the urge to send up extra men to consolidate if the counter petered out. But, running out of time, they did wisely push up after earning a corner in the waning minutes, and were rewarded with a leveler at 83:29. Two overtimes later, they were right where they wanted to be -- in a shootout after a 1-1 draw, and their goalkeeper made the first save to start off that shootout. But their fortunes dried up as the shootout went on, so instead it'll be NPU vs. ONU, Part Two tomorrow afternoon.
UChicago looked rough tonight, and the injuries they suffered won't help things either. Also, it was very cold and the reffing was abysmal. 8 cards in a game of average physicality. What a joke.
Willamette was dominant in their game with lots of speed and technical ability.
If the Maroons don't up their game tomorrow night, Willamette will beat them.
Any of the YC in Chicago game for dissent or misconduct?
Obviously a day full of outstanding match-ups....
Great opportunity individually and in congregate for NY State teams....SLU-Amherst, Vassar-Bowdoin, Oneonta-Tufts. NY snaring two out of three would be impressive.
Williams has the opportunity of a lifetime...and chance to do something that will yield more than talking about draws.
Two outstanding kind of under the radar games....UWEC-GAC and St Olaf-N Central...all looking to see which one will get a shot presumably at Chicago down the road.
Tremendous opportunity for almost the entire Stevens quad, especially now that Midd, a team that so many of us picked to emerge, is out. Stevens will have a tough one today with fellow Jersey squad Rowan but there's nobody in the quad that they might think they can't beat. So I give Stevens a decent chance, but also think the opportunity to get to a final 4 is sitting right there for F&M, Cortland, JHU, JCU, Rowan, and I guess CNU. F&M, JHU, and JCU in particular have been trying to break through for a while now.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 13, 2022, 10:51:02 AM
So I give Stevens a decent chance, but also think the opportunity to get to a final 4 is sitting right there for F&M, Cortland, JHU, JCU, Rowan, and I guess CNU.
So you're saying the Final 4 is sitting right there for 7 of the 8 teams? That's quite the observation ;D
Quote from: Ejay on November 13, 2022, 12:14:22 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 13, 2022, 10:51:02 AM
So I give Stevens a decent chance, but also think the opportunity to get to a final 4 is sitting right there for F&M, Cortland, JHU, JCU, Rowan, and I guess CNU.
So you're saying the Final 4 is sitting right there for 7 of the 8 teams? That's quite the observation ;D
I did start out by saying "Tremendous opportunity for almost the entire Stevens quad...."
Was about chances, not predictions....and that 7 doesn't include my (and many others') prediction of Midd.
A slew of good to very good teams but imo no great ones.
"Scoooooore Bowdoin" is hardly the most elegant way to announce a goal.
Tufts just played one of their best halves of the season... and trail 1-0. Such is this crazy sport. Hopefully they can cut out a few more clear cut chances and put one away in the second half. The RCB for Oneonta is very impressive. Really composed on the ball and has made a few key interceptions.
Quote from: d4_Pace on November 13, 2022, 01:51:42 PM
Tufts just played one of their best halves of the season... and trail 1-0. Such is this crazy sport. Hopefully they can cut out a few more clear cut chances and put one away in the second half. The RCB for Oneonta is very impressive. Really composed on the ball and has made a few key interceptions.
The parts I've seen Oneonta is doing a great giving Tufts no space or good looks in the final 3rd. That said, I would guess Oneonta will need at least one more.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 13, 2022, 12:30:57 PM
Quote from: Ejay on November 13, 2022, 12:14:22 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 13, 2022, 10:51:02 AM
So I give Stevens a decent chance, but also think the opportunity to get to a final 4 is sitting right there for F&M, Cortland, JHU, JCU, Rowan, and I guess CNU.
So you're saying the Final 4 is sitting right there for 7 of the 8 teams? That's quite the observation ;D
I did start out by saying "Tremendous opportunity for almost the entire Stevens quad...."
Was about chances, not predictions....and that 7 doesn't include my (and many others') prediction of Midd.
A slew of good to very good teams but imo no great ones.
Yep, it's why I thought this was the second hardest region. Lots of parity, but a higher level.
What a goal for Oneonta's 2nd!
Pretty annoying they can't stagger these games a little bit more today. 6 games kick off at 3pm. You could start a few at 2 and 4 and even throw in a few :30 start times.
I know this only effects this nerdy pocket of the world, but still... :D
Agreed! I started watching the Amherst game until that wasn't close. Switched to Oneonta and now I'm on the Vassar/Bowdoin game. Vassar just tied it up. 1-1
Iffy call on the Vassar penalty. Weather looks terrible in Brunswick.
Quote from: paclassic89 on November 13, 2022, 02:36:08 PM
What a goal for Oneonta's 2nd!
Starts with the clever header-heel flick, then 4 sharp passes and a one-touch finish.
That was clinical. Thanks for calling it out!
Apologies to SimpleCoach, I think his summary of the first half of Catholic vs Lynchburg was fair after rewatching some of the first half.
Currently watching Catholic vs CNU, only 12 minutes in down in Newport News and Catholic had one good chance off a corner that hit the post and CNU has had two good opportunities, long strike just wide and just a minute ago a really dangerous cross into the box, possession has been pretty even this far. Looks like beautiful weather in Virginia and field is in good condition.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 13, 2022, 02:25:52 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 13, 2022, 12:30:57 PM
Quote from: Ejay on November 13, 2022, 12:14:22 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 13, 2022, 10:51:02 AM
So I give Stevens a decent chance, but also think the opportunity to get to a final 4 is sitting right there for F&M, Cortland, JHU, JCU, Rowan, and I guess CNU.
So you're saying the Final 4 is sitting right there for 7 of the 8 teams? That's quite the observation ;D
I did start out by saying "Tremendous opportunity for almost the entire Stevens quad...."
Was about chances, not predictions....and that 7 doesn't include my (and many others') prediction of Midd.
A slew of good to very good teams but imo no great ones.
Yep, it's why I thought this was the second hardest region. Lots of parity, but a higher level.
Didn't like this draw from the jump myself as a Stevens fan. Theoretical #1 seed in the region getting a #20 Nationally Ranked team AND a #2 Regionally-Ranked team in the opening weekend felt like the committee really didn't think too highly of Region IV this year. Doubly so with the Montclair leave-out.
If you come out of a weekend like this you're battle-hardened, but it's not what you want to see with the ranking.
Through one half, F&M up 2-0. Story of the game is the weather here 15 to 20 mph winds across the field to make us think more than 20 mph. First goal was across into the box and I guess they didn't trust their keeper enough and the Cortland back flicked it backwards over the goal. The second goal was Dynamite. Pass through the box the Cortland back sandwiched the F&M player. The center referee let it go on despite it being a clear PK and the F&M striker passed it in the goal.
So far, the F&M defense has not allowed a shot on goal yet.
Quote from: LetteroftheLaw on November 13, 2022, 03:16:28 PM
Apologies to SimpleCoach, I think his summary of the first half of Catholic vs Lynchburg was fair after rewatching some of the first half.
Currently watching Catholic vs CNU, only 12 minutes in down in Newport News and Catholic had one good chance off a corner that hit the post and CNU has had two good opportunities, long strike just wide and just a minute ago a really dangerous cross into the box, possession has been pretty even this far. Looks like beautiful weather in Virginia and field is in good condition.
No apologies necessary, @LetteroftheLaw.
Was expecting more from CNU. Watched them play VA Wesleyan, Washington & Lee and Messiah. Based on the first two games, I thought they were better than what they showed yesterday and today. If Catholic wins today, well anything can happen. I could see a scenario where they are in the semifinals.
SC.
Anyone watch the first half of Williams vs. Messiah and want to catch me up? Hopping over from the bowdoin game.
Quote from: hiyasoccer on November 13, 2022, 04:07:30 PM
Anyone watch the first half of Williams vs. Messiah and want to catch me up? Hopping over from the bowdoin game.
Think Messiah had the better of the play but Williams has made it difficult. Pressing all over the field and making it difficult for Messiah to connect, especially when they are in the attacking third.
Williams had a couple of looks to goal, but nothing too dangerous except for one where a defender slipped and turned over the ball for a one on one, but he hit it wide left.
SC.
Quote from: Hopkins Walk-On on November 13, 2022, 02:48:42 PM
Iffy call on the Vassar penalty. Weather looks terrible in Brunswick.
I was at the game Hopkins92...and completely agree that was an iffy penalty call. In my view, the two players were holding each other and the Vassar player just flopped. I didn't think the center ref had a great game. He failed to call some other clear fouls, and also missed a deflected Bowdoin shot in OT that should have resulted in a corner.
And, yes, it rained steadily for the 2 1/2 hours we were there as temps dropped into the mid 40s. But it was all worth it after the penalties, when the exultant Bowdoin players ran en masse toward the student section and did a group slide on the absolutely saturated grass.
Catholic vs CNU really opening up here with 30 mins left in the second half, Catholic having the better of the play in the second half after CNU had a flurry of chances in the last 15 mins of the first half, still 0-0 but pretty good game so far.
Muhles with the equalizer!
2-2... Muhles won't be bothered by this pockmarked field. :D
Goal was a classic Muhles goal... Low, hard-driven cross from a stoppage, bounces over the front defender and is headed home almost on the line.
And the Generals knock one of the post on a beautiful counter off of a Muhles corner.
Upset watch... Rowan up 1-0 on Stevens in Hoboken.
Man, should have played a drinking game every time messiah broadcast booth mentioned the wind. I'd have been schnookered by halftime. ;)
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 13, 2022, 04:22:58 PM
Muhles with the equalizer!
2-2... Muhles won't be b
othered by this pockmarked field. :D
Goal was a classic Muhles goal... Low, hard-driven cross from a stoppage, bounces over the front defender and is headed home almost on the line.
And the Generals knock one of the post on a beautiful counter off of a Muhles corner.
And now a 4th... 10mins left... obese female regaling...
Gens relentless attack yields a 3rd goal.
Score is now 4-2
Actually 5-2 w&l.
Mega controversy in Hoboken. Stevens shot from near the top of the box rolled on the deck all the way through, hit the left post and rolled across the entire face of the goal line off the right post.
It was smothered by Rowan's keeper but the refs awarded it a goal.
No way to tell from the online feed angle, but it's now 1-1 with 6' to play.
CNU vs Catholic heading to OT, Catholic with a golden opportunity with less than a minute left in the second half that CNU blocked on the six yard line and then CNU with a very dangerous free kick late.
And of course, Messiah and Williams are tied at the end of regulation. Because it's Williams.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 13, 2022, 04:29:57 PM
Upset watch... Rowan up 1-0 on Stevens in Hoboken.
Stevens level on a crazy goal... ball falls to a midfielder about 28 yards from goal, hits a one timer on the ground... ball has eyes and makes it through a sea of legs and hits off the far post. Slings across the goal line and... hits the other side frame or the post and comes out. AR signals it went over the line... I watched it 6 times and.. Not sure that should've been a goal. Headed to OT.
Quote from: StevensPBP05-10 on November 13, 2022, 04:51:26 PM
Mega controversy in Hoboken. Stevens shot from near the top of the box rolled on the deck all the way through, hit the left post and rolled across the entire face of the goal line off the right post.
It was smothered by Rowan's keeper but the refs awarded it a goal.
No way to tell from the online feed angle, but it's now 1-1 with 6' to play.
Just... maybe there was enough spin for it to hit over the line and spin to the goalie like that... Seems mighty unlikely.
Gustavus advances on PK's over UWEC! Very physical game, fairly evenly played game.
UWEC has a bright future. Excited to see the Gusties back in the sweet 16!
Meanwhile, F&M and Cortland tied at 3... that game must be nuts.
Ohio No and North Park sitting on zeds.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 13, 2022, 04:58:56 PM
Quote from: StevensPBP05-10 on November 13, 2022, 04:51:26 PM
Mega controversy in Hoboken. Stevens shot from near the top of the box rolled on the deck all the way through, hit the left post and rolled across the entire face of the goal line off the right post.
It was smothered by Rowan's keeper but the refs awarded it a goal.
No way to tell from the online feed angle, but it's now 1-1 with 6' to play.
Just... maybe there was enough spin for it to hit over the line and spin to the goalie like that... Seems mighty unlikely.
Think it's possible that there was just enough of an arc off the inside of the post that somewhere along the path from left to right post it was fully past the line, but I'm inclined to agree and doubt it.
Landmark conference Offensive player of the year, Darius Siahpoosh with a brilliant strike from 18 yards out five minutes into the first OT to put the cardinals up 1-0.
2-0 Catholic, 13 minutes left
So I believe there are five OT games under way right now and a 6th in PKs.
Rowan just hit the crossbar.
I have the sound off... Lengthy stoppage in the Messiah game. No idea what's going on.
A Williams player apparently took a shot to his head and the game has been stopped for quite awhile for him to get medical attention. They are bringing a cart out. Doesn't sound good based on the way the broadcasters are talking about it.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 13, 2022, 05:13:23 PM
Rowan just hit the crossbar.
...
One of two massive opportunities squandered. Also had a 2 on 1 where they sent a fairly tame shot right at the keeper.
There have been I believe 4 bar hits now in this game, 2 a side.
I don't think I'd be going out of my way to mess/inspire Matt MacDonald if I were the Williams defense. Just sayin'.
Catholic makes program history punching their ticket to their first ever sweet 16!
Quote from: gustiefan04 on November 13, 2022, 05:00:40 PM
Gustavus advances on PK's over UWEC! Very physical game, fairly evenly played game.
UWEC has a bright future. Excited to see the Gusties back in the sweet 16!
Keepers stopped 7 of 14 PKs. Amazing! UWEC keeper came in cold off the bench. Hate when games end with PKs but hard fought game by both teams. Would like to see the foul that resulted in a PK and tieing goal for GAC. Thought it was a bad call from the stands but I admit my bias. ;)
ONU takes out North Park in PKs.
Stevens and Rowan headed to spot kicks in a minute here.
This is nuts. Messiah looks headed to PKs, as well.
When 2 Champions go to penalties anything can happen.
Williams shutting people up with another tie with a good chance to advance.
Ducks survive, 4-1 on PKs. 2 saves by Cross and made unreachable by Stevens' 4th shooting first.
Seen a lot of miraculous Stevens escapes to a result in my day, but this might have been the iffiest one.
Wow.
What a bummer.
Messiah out :o
Williams beats Messiah on PKs. Big keeper does his job.
And then Williams beats Messiah with yet another tie.
1995 Champions on to the sweet 16 after taking out Goliath.
Quote from: Saint of Old on November 13, 2022, 05:36:41 PM
Williams shutting people up with another tie with a good chance to advance.
I was thinking about that during the overtime; the craziness of their controversial selection and then them coming to a team that was undefeated and arguably the in-form team in the country. That's a tough result for Messiah who dominated play but couldn't knock the door down. Williams competed well in the part of the OTs that I watched and their penalties were great.
The craziness of the game, personified.
PA teams just had a bad karmic moment... Dips and Falcons go down in PKs.
Cruel game, man.
(And that's what I meant about staggering these games... That was nucking futs to follow. :D )
Wow, that was impressive on Williams' part. While I am not yet eating my hat, I definitely tip my hat to them. I thought Messiah was going to win it all.
Committee looking genius with their at large bid selections....
After the pens, and F&M player seemed to sprint over to the Oneonta bench resulting in numerous cards and some sort of fight. Tough way to end your season.
Quote from: upthepanthers on November 13, 2022, 05:50:06 PM
After the pens, and F&M player seemed to sprint over to the Oneonta bench resulting in numerous cards and some sort of fight. Tough way to end your season.
At least 2 of the 5 F&M kickers got in the face of the goalie after their kicks.
Just... Don't do that, man.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 13, 2022, 05:48:33 PM
(And that's what I meant about staggering these games... That was nucking futs to follow. :D )
I had four windows open. Easy peasy.
So, 6 of 11 games today decided in PKs. We still have four games left.
So Tufts and Messiah are out in one fell swoop 2nd round of the NCAA 15 of the last 20 titles in history gone in the span of 90 minutes (add SLU and OWU then 17 of the last 21)
This is why we love the game.
No defending Champ
No Messiah
No Tufts
Wide open
Quote from: Buck O. on November 13, 2022, 05:53:05 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 13, 2022, 05:48:33 PM
(And that's what I meant about staggering these games... That was nucking futs to follow. :D )
I had four windows open. Easy peasy.
Yeah, me too. Would've been nice not to have to fly around so much to get a grip of the proceedings.
The battle of the Blues kicking off in Baltimore here in a minute. Got the HDMI hooked up to my back-up large screen, got the USWNT on the mothership.
My wife is incredibly patient. (But also a JHU alum and loves soccer, so... Not exactly Mother Theresa... Except for just having to deal with my nonsense in general... She WAS quick to make fun of the Blue Streaks as a mascot, so... Keeper!)
Couple of thoughts on Williams-Messiah
1. NESCAC play helped Williams prepare for Messiah more than Commonwealth play helped Messiah prepare for Williams. I haven't watched Williams a ton this season, but I did watch them lose in PKs in the NESCAC tournament against Conn College. Conn is a team that has some similarities with Messiah in terms of playing out of the back and through some strong, technical, midfielders. Defending that kind of team is very different from a long ball team and the fact that Williams can do it well against both kinds of teams is significant. I saw Messiah play against Lebanon Valley Colleg and that was a different kind of parking the bus that didn't challenge the Messiah players at midfield as much as Williams did. Based on Messiah's results this year, it looked like no other conference opponent either played this defensively or had the players to do so successfully.
2. Williams' strategy is more tactical than desperation. Weaker teams often play really defensively because it's their only chance. Williams, however, has some good technical players. They often played nicely with the ball out of the back and they held possession in Messiah's half for some stretches. They don't have the dangerous offensive players to bother Messiah, but it seems like they have the players to be a different kind of team and they would win some games if they did so. They simply chose this approach before the season started to maximize their strengths. That is to be distinguished from teams that play one way and try to alter their approach when they face a stronger opponent, which usually doesn't go well because the inferior team isn't used to playing that way.
Williams just closed an NLI deal with the convenience store giant, 7/11.
I wonder if today already set a record for PK matches....and as someone said, still 4 games to go.
St Lawrence 2 Amherst 4
Sadly work interfered with my viewing in part, but I came away with nothing but respect for the way Saints play and the pro-Saints posters have every reason to be proud of their team. Nevertheless, it's not the first time Amherst has started hot and on the first goal, there were two other players who were ready to score. The 3-0 scoreline was as much about momentum and Saints really took over about 30 minutes in and at 3-1, I felt nervous, knowing the potency of their attack. The 4th Amherst goal calmed the nerves, but everyone knew it wasn't going to finish 4-1.
4-2 not long into the second half and the Saints' tails were up and the Mammoths were pushed back. It wasn't always pretty, but ultimately in my clearly biased view it felt like there wasn't lots of dangerous play in Amherst's area. But of course, it only takes a moment to change that and Saints clearly have players who can unlock that particular door. Amherst did create chances too and ultimately were rewarded for the ones they did take
Not sure what comes next and it's hard to believe we have seen the last of the upsets.
Foul count was 26/12 and 4/3 in yellows, well above pace for Amherst.
Quote from: LetteroftheLaw on November 13, 2022, 05:49:21 PM
Committee looking genius with their at large bid selections....
Amen to that. Congrats to your Cardinals. Way to represent the Landmark.
It's not like Hopkins has been under the radar this year, but... The way the season ended probably dropped them off of a lot ppl's radar. I get that.
This version of Hopkins is dangerous. They aren't going to force an approach of playing out of the back if that's not available. They are skipping the defense in their build-up and taking it to the Blue Streaks. I haven't seen Hopkins be this direct all year, BUT I have noted that coming down the stretch, they are very much taking an approach that pings the ball around, and launches more direct balls than they were willing to do in September.
They should probably be up 2 goals, but I really like how they're continuing to press the play. They've had a tendency to relax after scoring that first goal this season, but they pretty quickly turned it back up after that goal.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 13, 2022, 07:00:47 PM
It's not like Hopkins has been under the radar this year, but... The way the season ended probably dropped them off of a lot ppl's radar. I get that.
This version of Hopkins is dangerous. They aren't going to force an approach of playing out of the back if that's not available. They are skipping the defense in their build-up and taking it to the Blue Streaks. I haven't seen Hopkins be this direct all year, BUT I have noted that coming down the stretch, they are very much taking an approach that pings the ball around, and launches more direct balls than they were willing to do in September.
They should probably be up 2 goals, but I really like how they're continuing to press the play. They've had a tendency to relax after scoring that first goal this season, but they pretty quickly turned it back up after that goal.
Probably the best half I've seen the play against a quality opponent. They have John Carroll on the ropes.
SC.
I'm not trying to say the Blue Streaks are a dirty team... They are not.
But 13-5 in fouls. Ref carded Centennial DPOY Treinen very early and it took him until almost the end of the half to card JCU. He needs to keep an eye on that... Persistent fouling should lead to cards. Should not reward the BS's for stopping Hopkins from breaking out on the attack.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 13, 2022, 07:00:47 PM
It's not like Hopkins has been under the radar this year, but... The way the season ended probably dropped them off of a lot ppl's radar. I get that.
This version of Hopkins is dangerous. They aren't going to force an approach of playing out of the back if that's not available. They are skipping the defense in their build-up and taking it to the Blue Streaks. I haven't seen Hopkins be this direct all year, BUT I have noted that coming down the stretch, they are very much taking an approach that pings the ball around, and launches more direct balls than they were willing to do in September.
They should probably be up 2 goals, but I really like how they're continuing to press the play. They've had a tendency to relax after scoring that first goal this season, but they pretty quickly turned it back up after that goal.
Hoping they hang on...... I know Catholic won't be intimidated by them given how frequently we get to play them in preseason scrimmages in recent years, I also personally wouldn't mind the 20 minute drive to Baltimore next weekend...
Hoboken, not Baltimore, most likely.
Obviously the fans are on the video side but it's an odd look and a little disconcerting to be staring at a pretty large football stadium that looks empty while a NCAA tourney game is being played.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 13, 2022, 07:13:27 PM
Hoboken, not Baltimore, most likely.
Yeah that's probably true unfortunately for me. Will sweet sixteen likely be played on Saturday?
Also thanks @Ejay, appreciate it.
Some of you may be deciding which of the two late games [involving teams from the West region] to watch tonight and defaulting to Willamette-Chicago because of Chicago's pedigree. Although that should be a good game, I wanted to offer a preview of the Pacific Lutheran - St. Thomas game since fewer people know anything about either of these teams.
Both teams score goals. It would be a shocker if this ended up a 0-0 tie heading into OT. It's not in either team's DNA to park the bus or to even drive it slowly through the neighborhood.
Pacific Lutheran - 61 goals this year (3.05/game). Never shut out.
St. Thomas - 61 goals this year (yes, the identical number) (3.21/game). Never shut out.
They are both average defensively. They both have plenty of shutouts (5 for Pac Lutheran and 6 for St. Thomas), but that's because the gap between the top and bottom of their respective leagues is pretty big. They each should have about double that number but tend to sub out liberally when up 4-5 goals and therefore have some 4-1, 5-1, 7-2-type scores.
They don't tie much (if at all):
Pacific Lutheran had ZERO ties this year. They are the anti-Williams.
St. Thomas had three ties this year. When they did tie, St. Thomas was usually the one on the front foot and the other teams was holding on for the tie. They had at least double or more the shots of their opponents in two of their three ties and let in a goal in the last few minutes in the third.
Common opponents:
Colorado College - Pacific Lutheran beat them 3-1 in Tacoma; St. Thomas tied them 1-1 in Colorado Springs
Mary Hardin-Baylor - Pacific Lutheran just beat them in the first round 4-2; St. Thomas beat them early in the season 4-1
Players to Watch:
St. Thomas - Taty Aleman (#7) has 18 goals and 5 assists in 19 games. Scored a brace v. Chapman last night
Daniel Castro (#10) has 17 goals and 5 assists in 19 games.
Pacific Lutheran - Craig Johnson (#17) has 13 goals and 6 assists in 20 games. Had an assist v. Mary Hardin-Baylor
Trevor Thompson (#16) has 12 goals and 10 assists in 20 games. Had a goal and an assist v. MHB
Fun facts:
St.Thomas was officially admitted as a member of NCAA DIII (moving from NAIA) on Aug. 15, 2022 (after a three year reclassification process). So, this is their first year of eligibility for the NCAA tournament.
Pacific Lutheran has qualified for the NCAA tournament 5 teams and this is the second year in a row that they have made it to the second round.
Hey, Kuiper, I meant to comment on this earlier but GAC's field looked really nice and more like the Texas/West Coast fields. How do they do that in St Peter, MN?
Quote from: LetteroftheLaw on November 13, 2022, 07:18:43 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 13, 2022, 07:13:27 PM
Hoboken, not Baltimore, most likely.
Yeah that's probably true unfortunately for me. Will sweet sixteen likely be played on Saturday?
Also thanks @Ejay, appreciate it.
Yes...everybody should be Sat/Sun.
Just returned from Oneonta where the Bo got beaten, missed all the excitement here, how about Williams ? ;D
Kuiper, great stuff above. The third game in that time slot might be the best...St Olaf at N Central.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 13, 2022, 07:20:35 PM
Hey, Kuiper, I meant to comment on this earlier but GAC's field looked really nice and more like the Texas/West Coast fields. How do they do that in St Peter, MN?
No idea. I know that other schools in Minnesota have pretty nice grass fields, such as Carleton but schools like Macalester and St. Olaf have installed artificial turf fields.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 13, 2022, 07:26:31 PM
Kuiper, great stuff above. The third game in that time slot might be the best...St Olaf at N Central.
Good point. I should clarify that I was referring to the two late games involving teams from the vast, unknown, DIII men's soccer wilderness known as Region X!
Quote from: Kuiper on November 13, 2022, 07:38:00 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 13, 2022, 07:20:35 PM
Hey, Kuiper, I meant to comment on this earlier but GAC's field looked really nice and more like the Texas/West Coast fields. How do they do that in St Peter, MN?
No idea. I know that other schools in Minnesota have pretty nice grass fields, such as Carleton but schools like Macalester and St. Olaf have installed artificial turf fields.
Yeah, I love the look of the St Olaf field.
Have to say, very impressed with this Hopkins team. Aggressive moving the ball forward. Still being loyal to ball possession, just playing with more urgency and more direct. Might have to come up with something to do for next weekend from Stevens.
SC.
Hop92...I agree with you...they look different or at least they are doing what they do at a far more accelerated pace and with more intentionality. I haven't seen anyone make JCU look like they were more just holding on and unable to keep the ball at all. Hopkins is giving them no chances and pressing both offensively and defensively. And I don't think Hopkins ever really fell off the radar.
*** Didn't see SC post before hit send on this but ditto to all that.
I give Hopkins credit for their play. They've totally stunted any of JCU's offense... but I can't stand the flopping they do all game and continue to get rewarded for it by the ref.
Was surpsied how nice the field was at GAC. It was so green for this time of year that I assumed it had to be turf yesterday.
Also just noticed that GAC had 22 fouls today. UWEC 14.
Hopkins looks really good on the ball, JC is not a bad squad but Hopkins really in control and look very comfortable.
Quote from: oacalum on November 13, 2022, 07:52:21 PM
I give Hopkins credit for their play. They've totally stunted any of JCU's offense... but I can't stand the flopping they do all game and continue to get rewarded for it by the ref.
Wow.
That's an interesting take.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 13, 2022, 07:45:07 PM
Hop92...I agree with you...they look different or at least they are doing what they do at a far more accelerated pace and with more intentionality. I haven't seen anyone make JCU look like they were more just holding on and unable to keep the ball at all. Hopkins is giving them no chances and pressing both offensively and defensively. And I don't think Hopkins ever really fell off the radar.
*** Didn't see SC post before hit send on this but ditto to all that.
1) Yeah, I've been fairly annoying over the years about Coach A and sticking with a certain style, even when the situation called for adjustments. The Messiah loss in 2019 (I think) really bugged me. But this team, the last 5 or 6 games... They are just OK spraying it around and being direct. It's almost jarring for someone that watches them a lot.
2) I've been saying all year, if Hopkins had a finisher, they would move from a really good team, to a great team. Well, FR winger/striker Scotty Coleman is emerging as "that guy." He scored the dagger goal last night to pretty much finish the game with the second goal. Tonight. Wow. Pulls down a brace and they were the kind of goals Hopkins needs. When you open up the opposition so consistently, you just need a guy to put the ball in the back of the net when obvious chances emerge. This kid is doing that. I said to my wife early in the second... This Coleman kid is a problem. (He had only scored 2 goals on the season... Not like this is coming out of nowhere... It's kind of coming out of nowhere.)
3) I don't want to get too chippy, but I'd be shocked if neutrals watching that game thought Hopkins was flopping all night. JCU clearly knew they couldn't let Hopkins break out and they fouled constantly. I mentioned it at half time. Ian Whamond is not a flopper, he just gets chopped down a lot. Saying "I give credit to" and then calling Hopkins floppers is the rough equivalent of the southern "bless his heart" before you say something nasty. Whatevs. Happy Hopkins House tonight.
North Park bows out in the second round at Ohio Northern on PKs after a scoreless draw.
The game itself was as even as the score indicates over the course of the full 110 minutes, although the Polar Bears did get the best two chances to score in the contest. In fact, NPU really stayed level only because of freshman GK Sebastianus Uribe, who made a great save on a rebound shot while lying on his side in the first half and snuffed out a PK attempt in the second. But in the shootout, ONU's strategy of sticking to simple ground shots hit at too fast a pace for Uribe to get down and stop them ultimately paid dividends that allowed the hosts to advance to the next weekend.
All in all, this feels like a disappointing season for NPU, which ends up at 15-3-3. But in the bigger picture, that just says something about how high the expectations have legitimately become on an annual basis at North Park. That, in and of itself, is something for Vikings fans to celebrate. I don't take the program's success lightly, and I'm always grateful for the hard work that the players. as well as Kris Grahn and his coaching staff, put in to keep the program at such a high level.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 13, 2022, 07:09:37 PM
I'm not trying to say the Blue Streaks are a dirty team... They are not.
But 13-5 in fouls. Ref carded Centennial DPOY Treinen very early and it took him until almost the end of the half to card JCU. He needs to keep an eye on that... Persistent fouling should lead to cards. Should not reward the BS's for stopping Hopkins from breaking out on the attack.
Then let me paraphrase for you: northern Ohio soccer is heavily influenced by Eastern European cultures, therefore soccer up there is also similarly influenced. I reffed for 30 years in this state - Ohio South - but the **** they allowed in games up there - Ohio North: I bought life insurance for my kid when he played tourneys up there, starting at U9.
They are taught to run through people and see what the ref calls. Referees up there think WW2 was a "dust up"
Quote from: EnmoreCat on November 13, 2022, 06:22:48 PM
St Lawrence 2 Amherst 4
Sadly work interfered with my viewing in part, but I came away with nothing but respect for the way Saints play and the pro-Saints posters have every reason to be proud of their team. Nevertheless, it's not the first time Amherst has started hot and on the first goal, there were two other players who were ready to score. The 3-0 scoreline was as much about momentum and Saints really took over about 30 minutes in and at 3-1, I felt nervous, knowing the potency of their attack. The 4th Amherst goal calmed the nerves, but everyone knew it wasn't going to finish 4-1.
4-2 not long into the second half and the Saints' tails were up and the Mammoths were pushed back. It wasn't always pretty, but ultimately in my clearly biased view it felt like there wasn't lots of dangerous play in Amherst's area. But of course, it only takes a moment to change that and Saints clearly have players who can unlock that particular door. Amherst did create chances too and ultimately were rewarded for the ones they did take
Not sure what comes next and it's hard to believe we have seen the last of the upsets.
Foul count was 26/12 and 4/3 in yellows, well above pace for Amherst.
I was on the RPI team that played Amherst in the Elite 8 in 2019 and had an eerily similar experience. I had never really seen anything like the intensity that Amherst brought to every aspect of the game. My impression of Serpone was that he was kind of an a-hole but that he had his guys firing on all cylinders and operating at their most intimidating. When we played them it was like 40 degees, pouring down rain, their grass field as essentially an unplayable mudpit, but these guys were fired up and swaggering. They had this palpable arrogance about them, like they knew they were the #2 team in the country and they were going to put us down, it was unreal. They scored their first goal and the kid did like a 15 foot knee slide right in front of our bench, and it was just over at that point.
They actually moved the game to the turf at halftime (don't get me started) and we got a goal back and arguably had the run of play in our favor the last 55 minutes or so, but I've got firsthand experience of seeing how their mentality, reputation, and intensity can catch teams off guard and get you boat-raced before you even know what hit you, even in a massively important match. I'm assuming it's a NESCAC thing, that the rivalries there are so intense and the conference is so high-quality that a) the intensity is just at peak levels and b) the top NESCAC teams come out of that conference with a certainty that they're better than anything else in the country has to offer.
CNU / Catholic was pretty even in my opinion. Overall, I thought CNU had the slightly better possession, but Catholic never stops running and took advantage of a bad defensive give away in OT. Just prior, there was a loud shout for a penalty on the Catholic keeper as it looked like he essentially tackled the CNU player in the box as he shielded the ball -- no call and then Catholic pounces. Seeing Siahpoosh live, he is a very crafty player.
Quote from: Chargers96 on November 13, 2022, 08:42:50 PM
CNU / Catholic was pretty even in my opinion. Overall, I thought CNU had the slightly better possession, but Catholic never stops running and took advantage of a bad defensive give away in OT. Just prior, there was a loud shout for a penalty on the Catholic keeper as it looked like he essentially tackled the CNU player in the box as he shielded the ball -- no call and then Catholic pounces. Seeing Siahpoosh live, he is a very crafty player.
Just watched the video replay -- horrendous no call on the penalty shout in OT -- Catholic keeper absolutely tackled the CNU player after misjudging the ball.
Quote from: Chargers96 on November 13, 2022, 08:50:45 PM
Quote from: Chargers96 on November 13, 2022, 08:42:50 PM
CNU / Catholic was pretty even in my opinion. Overall, I thought CNU had the slightly better possession, but Catholic never stops running and took advantage of a bad defensive give away in OT. Just prior, there was a loud shout for a penalty on the Catholic keeper as it looked like he essentially tackled the CNU player in the box as he shielded the ball -- no call and then Catholic pounces. Seeing Siahpoosh live, he is a very crafty player.
Just watched the video replay -- horrendous no call on the penalty shout in OT -- Catholic keeper absolutely tackled the CNU player after misjudging the ball.
I like to think what goes around comes around..... my career ended at Muhlenburg in 2014 on an absolutely egregious no call in the first OT when their center back misplayed a ball that led to a one on one with the keeper who completely took out our forward and the ref swallowed his whistle. Onto Hop....
Messiah and Western CT both finish 20-0-2.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 13, 2022, 08:04:42 PM
Quote from: oacalum on November 13, 2022, 07:52:21 PM
I give Hopkins credit for their play. They've totally stunted any of JCU's offense... but I can't stand the flopping they do all game and continue to get rewarded for it by the ref.
Wow.
That's an interesting take.
You watched that and didn't notice Hopkins manipulating the ref? They used it to their advantage and knew he was would call anything.
Williams 6th 0-0 tie on the season sets an NCAA record. (previous was Drew in 2014).
Not surprisingly, they have also passed the record for ties in a season (9), with 11.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 13, 2022, 09:04:29 PM
Messiah and Western CT both finish 20-0-2.
So in hindsight, Lynchburg, Wisc-Platteville, and CMU were the three pool C berths that you could question whether or not they deserved to get in over Western CT.
Quote from: oacalum on November 13, 2022, 09:10:08 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 13, 2022, 08:04:42 PM
Quote from: oacalum on November 13, 2022, 07:52:21 PM
I give Hopkins credit for their play. They've totally stunted any of JCU's offense... but I can't stand the flopping they do all game and continue to get rewarded for it by the ref.
Wow.
That's an interesting take.
You watched that and didn't notice Hopkins manipulating the ref? They used it to their advantage and knew he was would call anything.
1) My Screenname tells you where I'm coming from. Yours is slightly less obvious.
2) Beyond all that, I'm a pretty objective observer... Just don't see what you saw.
Maybe look up-thread as to why you're take on this game differs from mine. You aren't allowed to body a player off the ball in soccer unless it's shoulder to shoulder. This isn't rugby
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 13, 2022, 09:16:26 PM
Williams 6th 0-0 tie on the season sets an NCAA record. (previous was Drew in 2014).
Not surprisingly, they have also passed the record for ties in a season (9), with 11.
The national championship game should be their kryptonite, then, since it cannot finish in a tie.
Yetafshefski (i don't feel like it!) just beasted a goal for a UofC 2-0 lead.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 13, 2022, 09:26:44 PM
Quote from: oacalum on November 13, 2022, 09:10:08 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 13, 2022, 08:04:42 PM
Quote from: oacalum on November 13, 2022, 07:52:21 PM
I give Hopkins credit for their play. They've totally stunted any of JCU's offense... but I can't stand the flopping they do all game and continue to get rewarded for it by the ref.
Wow.
That's an interesting take.
You watched that and didn't notice Hopkins manipulating the ref? They used it to their advantage and knew he was would call anything.
1) My Screenname tells you where I'm coming from. Yours is slightly less obvious.
2) Beyond all that, I'm a pretty objective observer... Just don't see what you saw.
Maybe look up-thread as to why you're take on this game differs from mine. You aren't allowed to body a player off the ball in soccer unless it's shoulder to shoulder. This isn't rugby
I'm an alum of one OAC school and have a sibling currently on JCU. But the ref was calling the nit picky things and the Hopkins players were (smartly) using that to their advantage to get calls. To use the foul advantage as calling it rugby is by no means what was happening in the game, but if you want to believe it it's fine.
Hopkins totally outworked and was more clinical than JCU, but I am unimpressed in the manner of doing so.
I have no dog in this one, but my honest take is almost the opposite. Imo JCU got outworked, did not win enough fifty balls, and did not put JHU under pressure while JHU pressed JCU offensively and defensively. JHU was just the better, more physical team today...and I say that while having a high opinion of JCU.
And I've been on both ends of after game posting with an opponent supporter...more often unfortunately on the losing end.
So. Many. BigSoccer. Flames. To. Say.
I'll take the win and move on.
Maybe it wasn't clear, but I agree Hopkins was pretty much better all around, just too much flopping and manipulating in my opinion leaving me unimpressed! Hopkins clearly deserved to advance.
Quote from: oacalum on November 13, 2022, 09:58:47 PM
Maybe it wasn't clear, but I agree Hopkins was pretty much better all around, just too much flopping and manipulating in my opinion leaving me unimpressed! Hopkins clearly deserved to advance.
:fist bump:
'
I can land here. :D
Can anyone who was at F&M match comment on the shootout and near-brawl at the end? On the stream it looked like a few of the Dips players were talking a ton of smack to the Cortland goalie after converting their kick which seemed pretty classless. Cortland got the last laugh and one Dip lost his mind. Streaming the three shootouts at the same time was pretty wild.
Quote from: BlueJay95 on November 13, 2022, 10:02:43 PM
Can anyone who was at F&M match comment on the shootout and near-brawl at the end? On the stream it looked like a few of the Dips players were talking a ton of smack to the Cortland goalie after converting their kick which seemed pretty classless. Cortland got the last laugh and one Dip lost his mind. Streaming the three shootouts at the same time was pretty wild.
ETA - 2 of the 5 F*M kickers took some time to jaw at the Cortland goalie. Not really sure what the ref was doing there.
Quote from: LL_Alum on November 13, 2022, 08:35:48 PM
Quote from: EnmoreCat on November 13, 2022, 06:22:48 PM
St Lawrence 2 Amherst 4
Sadly work interfered with my viewing in part, but I came away with nothing but respect for the way Saints play and the pro-Saints posters have every reason to be proud of their team. Nevertheless, it's not the first time Amherst has started hot and on the first goal, there were two other players who were ready to score. The 3-0 scoreline was as much about momentum and Saints really took over about 30 minutes in and at 3-1, I felt nervous, knowing the potency of their attack. The 4th Amherst goal calmed the nerves, but everyone knew it wasn't going to finish 4-1.
4-2 not long into the second half and the Saints' tails were up and the Mammoths were pushed back. It wasn't always pretty, but ultimately in my clearly biased view it felt like there wasn't lots of dangerous play in Amherst's area. But of course, it only takes a moment to change that and Saints clearly have players who can unlock that particular door. Amherst did create chances too and ultimately were rewarded for the ones they did take
Not sure what comes next and it's hard to believe we have seen the last of the upsets.
Foul count was 26/12 and 4/3 in yellows, well above pace for Amherst.
I was on the RPI team that played Amherst in the Elite 8 in 2019 and had an eerily similar experience. I had never really seen anything like the intensity that Amherst brought to every aspect of the game. My impression of Serpone was that he was kind of an a-hole but that he had his guys firing on all cylinders and operating at their most intimidating. When we played them it was like 40 degees, pouring down rain, their grass field as essentially an unplayable mudpit, but these guys were fired up and swaggering. They had this palpable arrogance about them, like they knew they were the #2 team in the country and they were going to put us down, it was unreal. They scored their first goal and the kid did like a 15 foot knee slide right in front of our bench, and it was just over at that point.
They actually moved the game to the turf at halftime (don't get me started) and we got a goal back and arguably had the run of play in our favor the last 55 minutes or so, but I've got firsthand experience of seeing how their mentality, reputation, and intensity can catch teams off guard and get you boat-raced before you even know what hit you, even in a massively important match. I'm assuming it's a NESCAC thing, that the rivalries there are so intense and the conference is so high-quality that a) the intensity is just at peak levels and b) the top NESCAC teams come out of that conference with a certainty that they're better than anything else in the country has to offer.
Wow I totally forgot about that game, I remember watching the stream. Absolutely insane game, possibly peak Amherst/NESCAC/D3 shenanigans levels. You guys played a solid game given the situation, once the game got moved to turf you put some good pressure on. And in the first half, it was just a ridiculous situation with the field, I played something stupid like 6 games on that field in my career and it's usually bad by the end of the season, but that was another level. Combo of that and your first experience playing Amherst is a tough tough game.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 13, 2022, 10:08:59 PM
Quote from: BlueJay95 on November 13, 2022, 10:02:43 PM
Can anyone who was at F&M match comment on the shootout and near-brawl at the end? On the stream it looked like a few of the Dips players were talking a ton of smack to the Cortland goalie after converting their kick which seemed pretty classless. Cortland got the last laugh and one Dip lost his mind. Streaming the three shootouts at the same time was pretty wild.
I noted in a quick recap that at least 2 F&M kickers took their positive result as an opportunity to taunt the goalie
]]\\
Very. Douche. E.
Par for the course for F&M. One of the most obnoxious benches i've seen this year.
St Olaf leads North Central 2-1 going into 2nd OT. Impressed with both teams and winner will have a battle with GAC.
St Thomas vs Chicago will be a fascinating contrast.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 13, 2022, 10:24:50 PM
St Thomas vs Chicago will be a fascinating contrast.
As I said when you asked earlier this week, St. Thomas is the team that has the best chance of knocking off Chicago of all of the CA/WA/TX teams. St. Thomas beat Pacific Lutheran tonight 2-0, becoming the first team to shut out the Lutes this year, although a red card to one of their players one-third of the way through the second half was a significant factor in that. Even before then, however, Pac Lutheran had gone into a shell in the first half after Taty Aleman scored for St. Thomas to record his third goal in two games of tournament action and 19th of the season in 20 games.
The St. Thomas-Chicago game will definitely be one to watch. Aleman, a junior, has to be getting some consideration for All American teams this year and a match against Chicago's defenders will gave him a chance to establish his credentials.
After a tight first half, UChicago showed its quality in the second half of their 4-1 win over Willamette. Naz Kabbani netted a hat trick, which is quite the feat for a DCM, but not entirely shocking as Kabbani has the best, most accurate touch on the team. Yeti also delivered a smasher off the crossbar and in on the run to break his cold streak. The Maroons are the ultimate front runners: once they score, you gotta change what you are doing/press the initiative, and that's when they score again. Their counter punch is lethal.
Several posts about officiating and quality or lack there of; most of the officials at this time of year are D1 or very high level D2/D3 with decent resumes.
However, much like national powerhouses, they too, are prone to an off day...
Quote from: Kuiper on November 13, 2022, 05:43:43 PM
Williams beats Messiah on PKs. Big keeper does his job.
Big Moments, Big Plays. The road to the national title has to have a plus keeper/plus keeper play at the front of the bus.....it will win championships. Williams GK made big plays, and maybe even more important -was really intimating and had a big presence in goal. Played big during the game, and had a large presence during PKs. Messiah lacked that presence, and other than the single save, didn't really affect PK takers - and honestly didn't seem to react well to PKs taken. Messiahs machine was fueled by scoring - and heading into PKs - it was advantage Williams
Congrats to the Ephs on proving the haters wrong! Granted, Messiah controlled the majority of the course of play, but in the end, Messiah had VERY few even semi-clean looks at the goal, so the center of the Eph defense held. And I agree that Diffley, the big Eph goalie, (who for some reason didn't handle the shoot-out in the shoot-out that Williams lost) is a big advantage in a tie game. He's been a monster all year and stopped an incredible four shots (well, one was missed, but still, his presence was surely felt) in two do-or-die shootouts vs. the two biggest powers in D3 soccer (Tufts and Messiah).
Maybe it will defy expectations, but on paper, Ohio Northern and Williams seems like it should be another defensive showdown. The two teams combined for three goals in two double-overtime games in the tourney so far and are both coming off 0-0 ties ... and since Ohio Northern is coming off two shoot-outs wins in the tourney, I can only assume they are comfortable and confident in that format, as well.
A game with two high scoring teams (Kenyon and W&L) and a game with two no-scoring teams (Williams and Ohio Northern) in that part of the bracket . . .
Quote from: Another Mom on November 14, 2022, 09:13:48 AM
A game with two high scoring teams (Kenyon and W&L) and a game with two no-scoring teams (Williams and Ohio Northern) in that part of the bracket . . .
It begins and ends with quality in the back. Defense wins championships.
[/quote]
It begins and ends with quality in the back. Defense wins championships.
[/quote]
As the mother of a defender I couldn't agree more :-)
Quote from: MessageBoardMessi on November 14, 2022, 08:31:53 AM
Quote from: Kuiper on November 13, 2022, 05:43:43 PM
Williams beats Messiah on PKs. Big keeper does his job.
Big Moments, Big Plays. The road to the national title has to have a plus keeper/plus keeper play at the front of the bus.....it will win championships. Williams GK made big plays, and maybe even more important -was really intimating and had a big presence in goal. Played big during the game, and had a large presence during PKs. Messiah lacked that presence, and other than the single save, didn't really affect PK takers - and honestly didn't seem to react well to PKs taken. Messiahs machine was fueled by scoring - and heading into PKs - it was advantage Williams
Not taking away anything from the Williams keeper who has shown his metal. But Jared The Mullet Pavlovich is an AA keeper in his own right. Yes, Messiah had a scary attack, but don't take away from their defense and keeper.
SC.
And it's Gambier...
Quote from: SimpleCoach on November 14, 2022, 09:50:42 AM
Quote from: MessageBoardMessi on November 14, 2022, 08:31:53 AM
Quote from: Kuiper on November 13, 2022, 05:43:43 PM
Williams beats Messiah on PKs. Big keeper does his job.
Big Moments, Big Plays. The road to the national title has to have a plus keeper/plus keeper play at the front of the bus.....it will win championships. Williams GK made big plays, and maybe even more important -was really intimating and had a big presence in goal. Played big during the game, and had a large presence during PKs. Messiah lacked that presence, and other than the single save, didn't really affect PK takers - and honestly didn't seem to react well to PKs taken. Messiahs machine was fueled by scoring - and heading into PKs - it was advantage Williams
Not taking away anything from the Williams keeper who has shown his metal. But Jared The Mullet Pavlovich is an AA keeper in his own right. Yes, Messiah had a scary attack, but don't take away from their defense and keeper.
SC.
Agreed....didn't lose a single match all season, and is a fantastic in-game shot stopper. I've watched him make some remarkable saves.
These things are hard hard to win man, and believe it or not the magic ingredient this time of year (besides) hunger and confidence is LadyLuck. That is your trifecta in November, unfortunately some teams just run out of that third requirement. Messiah has been lucky. I have personally experienced a dance playing before the craziest by far crowd in D3 (before they won a single Chip) What people don't realize is that Messiah was a sick sick team way before 2000. Always strong, just didn't win the big one. Still even for a program this good you need loads and loads of luck to win almost a dozen Chips in a short span.
Who does Lady Luck favor now, there are no sub-par or undeserving teams left so Luck will play a big part.
Round 3
*Chicago v St. Thomas at noon
Gust. Adophus v. St. Olaf at 2:30 pm
*Stevens v SUNY Cortland at 1 pm
Catholic v. Johns Hopkins at 3:30 pm
Williams v. Ohio Northern at 11 am
*Kenyon v W&L at 1:30 pm
*Amherst v Mary Washington at 11 am
SUNY Oneonta v. Bowdoin at 1:30 pm
Round 4
Winners of Chicago region play at 2 pm
Winners of Stevens region play at 3 pm
Winners of Kenyon region play at 1 pm
Winners of Amherst region play at 1 pm
So much for staggering. At least they don't have all the sectional finals starting at the same time.
Undefeated teams are very vulnerable, when the competition reaches the knockout stage!
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 14, 2022, 09:57:10 AM
Quote from: SimpleCoach on November 14, 2022, 09:50:42 AM
Quote from: MessageBoardMessi on November 14, 2022, 08:31:53 AM
Quote from: Kuiper on November 13, 2022, 05:43:43 PM
Williams beats Messiah on PKs. Big keeper does his job.
Big Moments, Big Plays. The road to the national title has to have a plus keeper/plus keeper play at the front of the bus.....it will win championships. Williams GK made big plays, and maybe even more important -was really intimating and had a big presence in goal. Played big during the game, and had a large presence during PKs. Messiah lacked that presence, and other than the single save, didn't really affect PK takers - and honestly didn't seem to react well to PKs taken. Messiahs machine was fueled by scoring - and heading into PKs - it was advantage Williams
Not taking away anything from the Williams keeper who has shown his metal. But Jared The Mullet Pavlovich is an AA keeper in his own right. Yes, Messiah had a scary attack, but don't take away from their defense and keeper.
SC.
Agreed....didn't lose a single match all season, and is a fantastic in-game shot stopper. I've watched him make some remarkable saves.
Agree with you both - didn't mean to diminish a remarkable season or a good player....my comments were specific to yesterday , and the brutal reality of single elimination, big moments, and even more so - PKs to make the final call. Granted, I think think Messiah and Williams could have played forever yesterday if we didn't get to PKs
Quote from: FBALLISLIFE on November 14, 2022, 10:16:39 AM
Round 3
*Chicago v St. Thomas at noon
Gust. Adophus v. St. Olaf at 2:30 pm
*Stevens v SUNY Cortland at 1 pm
Catholic v. Johns Hopkins at 3:30 pm
Williams v. Ohio Northern at 11 am
*Kenyon v W&L at 1:30 pm
*Amherst v Mary Washington at 11 am
SUNY Oneonta v. Bowdoin at 1:30 pm
Round 4
Winners of Chicago region play at 2 pm
Winners of Stevens region play at 3 pm
Winners of Kenyon region play at 1 pm
Winners of Amherst region play at 1 pm
So much for staggering. At least they don't have all the sectional finals starting at the same time.
This is by design, the NCAA has prescribed start times in the manual and the schools stick to it unless there is a demonstrable conflict (like a Saturday afternoon football game that pushes the soccer games to a night time start). Day games start at 11 AM, night games at 5 PM.
Quote from: blue_jays on November 14, 2022, 11:08:27 AM
Quote from: FBALLISLIFE on November 14, 2022, 10:16:39 AM
Round 3
*Chicago v St. Thomas at noon
Gust. Adophus v. St. Olaf at 2:30 pm
*Stevens v SUNY Cortland at 1 pm
Catholic v. Johns Hopkins at 3:30 pm
Williams v. Ohio Northern at 11 am
*Kenyon v W&L at 1:30 pm
*Amherst v Mary Washington at 11 am
SUNY Oneonta v. Bowdoin at 1:30 pm
Round 4
Winners of Chicago region play at 2 pm
Winners of Stevens region play at 3 pm
Winners of Kenyon region play at 1 pm
Winners of Amherst region play at 1 pm
So much for staggering. At least they don't have all the sectional finals starting at the same time.
This is by design, the NCAA has prescribed start times in the manual and the schools stick to it unless there is a demonstrable conflict (like a Saturday afternoon football game that pushes the soccer games to a night time start). Day games start at 11 AM, night games at 5 PM.
Not to mention the fact that many/most of these D3 schools do not have lights and they need to finish before dark. That didn't happen at Bowdoin in Maine on Saturday, but that's certainly a likely possibility when the northernmost school remaining (Husson notwithstanding) earns the right to host and a game is significantly delayed by injury requiring an ambulance. Learn to roll with it and deal with whatever obstacles you find in your way. Vassar managed just fine, Babson not so much. Darkness, rain, a bad ref, an overly physical opponent, and perhaps even locusts--whatever it takes, it isn't easy to win this tournament. No excuses, just leave it all out there.
Quote from: LL_Alum on November 13, 2022, 08:35:48 PM
Quote from: EnmoreCat on November 13, 2022, 06:22:48 PM
St Lawrence 2 Amherst 4
Sadly work interfered with my viewing in part, but I came away with nothing but respect for the way Saints play and the pro-Saints posters have every reason to be proud of their team. Nevertheless, it's not the first time Amherst has started hot and on the first goal, there were two other players who were ready to score. The 3-0 scoreline was as much about momentum and Saints really took over about 30 minutes in and at 3-1, I felt nervous, knowing the potency of their attack. The 4th Amherst goal calmed the nerves, but everyone knew it wasn't going to finish 4-1.
4-2 not long into the second half and the Saints' tails were up and the Mammoths were pushed back. It wasn't always pretty, but ultimately in my clearly biased view it felt like there wasn't lots of dangerous play in Amherst's area. But of course, it only takes a moment to change that and Saints clearly have players who can unlock that particular door. Amherst did create chances too and ultimately were rewarded for the ones they did take
Not sure what comes next and it's hard to believe we have seen the last of the upsets.
Foul count was 26/12 and 4/3 in yellows, well above pace for Amherst.
I was on the RPI team that played Amherst in the Elite 8 in 2019 and had an eerily similar experience. I had never really seen anything like the intensity that Amherst brought to every aspect of the game. My impression of Serpone was that he was kind of an a-hole but that he had his guys firing on all cylinders and operating at their most intimidating. When we played them it was like 40 degees, pouring down rain, their grass field as essentially an unplayable mudpit, but these guys were fired up and swaggering. They had this palpable arrogance about them, like they knew they were the #2 team in the country and they were going to put us down, it was unreal. They scored their first goal and the kid did like a 15 foot knee slide right in front of our bench, and it was just over at that point.
They actually moved the game to the turf at halftime (don't get me started) and we got a goal back and arguably had the run of play in our favor the last 55 minutes or so, but I've got firsthand experience of seeing how their mentality, reputation, and intensity can catch teams off guard and get you boat-raced before you even know what hit you, even in a massively important match. I'm assuming it's a NESCAC thing, that the rivalries there are so intense and the conference is so high-quality that a) the intensity is just at peak levels and b) the top NESCAC teams come out of that conference with a certainty that they're better than anything else in the country has to offer.
Yes LL_Alum.
Very similar situation. SLU seemed to be intimidated from the start (even the coach), with two starters from Saturday's game sitting, most likely because of their size, or lack of. A tall freshman defender who had only played in 7 games all year, was sent to the wolves (mammoths) because of his 6'3" frame. The poor kid immediately got beat and made a desperate slide tackle and yellow card foul right outside the box which led to first goal just 1:20 seconds into the game. His NCAA game lasted all of 80 seconds as he seemed to pull his hamstring (was on crutches from the sidelines the rest of the game) and was helped off the field by the fouled player and good sportsman Ada Okorogheye.
The intimidation, physical size, and constant fouling and some dirty play was not something that SLU was used to. It took 30 minutes and a 3-0 scoreline to wake the SLU players, who could have been very sleepy from being woken up, and made to go outside from the 4am fire alarm at their hotel. Amherst also led in fouls, 26-12. They led 1-0 in kicking a player when on the ground (Laurens ten Cate). The refs let them play and they still got 26 fouls, to SLU's 12. A quicker whistle would certainly have helped SLU. Multiple fouls by players don't seem to give yellow cards either. When SLU finally did wake up it was a great game to watch. SLU played their hearts out. This was probably the worst matchup in the NCAAs they could have had. Amherst on their narrow grass field. I would have given SLU a great shot against any other team in the NCAAs and truly believed, with a little luck, that they could have gone to the final weekend. Once SLU realized that their talent and technical stills can outplay the size and physicality of Amherst, they were able to outplay them but were not able to put enough goals in the net. The shorter defender came in and played a great game. Miles Levy eventually came in and got an assist on a beautiful SLU goal that involved about 6 link up passes until finally a beautiful finish by their Dutch striker.
I'm curious what others think about a style that seems to work for Amherst. Take a narrow grass field. Keep the grass long. Foul constantly and physically intimidate as the refs won't give yellows for accumulation. I believe Amherst leads the county in fouls with 332. The average for the rest of Nescac teams is just under 200. Of course this ends up in ugly soccer but the name of the game is winning right? Is this a problem? Is this a problem with soccer? Is this a problem with how soccer is refereed? Is this not a problem at all? The Amherst coach plays within the rules and wins games. He is rewarded with winning for using this style of play. He uses his home field to his advantage. So why wouldn't he continue?
How I would have loved to watch the game on their turf field, or any wider field, with a faster whistle. I actually thought the refs were ok. But with so many fouls and then walking over and kicking a player on the ground, there should be red.
I hope I don't sound like a sore loser, as SLU knew what they were up against and the coach and players needed to be confident that their talent, toughness and style of play was good enough to beat a bigger, kick, run, and foul team. Believe me, Amherst is very talented and could easily play a game that shows it off.
Would love to hear some thoughts?
I'm laughing Saint_Dad, because you've summed up about a decade worth of complaints (and both sides of the debate) about Amherst's soccer program, if you scroll through the archives of the NESCAC board. On the one hand, the coach's personality, the rough / ugly style of play, and the field all receive, to put it mildly, very little love throughout NESCAC (and broader D3 circles, when they are exposed). But on the other, Amherst wins big and does so consistently, brings in great players consistently, and the players seem (unlike the rest of the league) to enjoy playing for him. Part of it can be attributed to the fact that it's never fun to lose consistently to any team, but on the other hand, Williams, Midd, Conn and especially Tufts have all had championship eras lead by HOF-caliber coaches over the past 30 years, and there was never the same sort of animosity directed towards any of those programs. In short, it works for Amherst, but doesn't make a lot of friends outside of Amherst.
Every sport will have an organization that decides to lean into the villain status. When you play, it's your team versus the universe, and you see them get increasingly bought into that model as they continue to see good results. It's difficult to maintain, because EVERYONE wants to take you down, but, again all of that hatred and envy makes people play their (Amherst's) match.
The Centennial has a team that is in the Amherst zone, but primarily through their "energetic" bench, applying a lot of pressure, and being unafraid to foul a lot to slow the other team down. It's interesting to note, they don't always play this way. But they sure do crank things up against Hopkins.
As an aside, I went to go watch Hop and F&M play in the CC semis at Haverford some years back (2018?) and remarked on these boards that the Hopkins bench was incredibly flat/quiet. Everyone was sitting, including the coaches. At the time I found it very odd behavior. Hopkins lost, I think 2-1, but it kind of never felt like the boys were in it. Watching them play each other this year, it occurred to me... I think the Hopkins coaches made a very purposeful decision back in 2018 to just not engage with F&M's energy. Don't try to play their game, including all the stuff going on with their bench. I think it resulted in a bit of a flat demeanor in 2018, but this year the Hop bench was livelier, but still... Coaches sitting quietly for long stretches sends a message.
I say all of that to say this: If I'm the opposing coach when playing Amherst, I'm in the refs ear BEFORE the game, pointing out this team (Am.) leads the nation in fouls and be ready with the cards. And I'm reminding him early on during the match. I know sometimes that can backfire, but I think it's worth it against Amherst. And you just have to get your players ready... There just can't be a surprise that they are gonna play like that... I know... Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth... But you have to walk into that game ready for nonsense.
Quote from: Saint_Dad on November 14, 2022, 12:09:02 PM
Quote from: LL_Alum on November 13, 2022, 08:35:48 PM
Quote from: EnmoreCat on November 13, 2022, 06:22:48 PM
St Lawrence 2 Amherst 4
Sadly work interfered with my viewing in part, but I came away with nothing but respect for the way Saints play and the pro-Saints posters have every reason to be proud of their team. Nevertheless, it's not the first time Amherst has started hot and on the first goal, there were two other players who were ready to score. The 3-0 scoreline was as much about momentum and Saints really took over about 30 minutes in and at 3-1, I felt nervous, knowing the potency of their attack. The 4th Amherst goal calmed the nerves, but everyone knew it wasn't going to finish 4-1.
4-2 not long into the second half and the Saints' tails were up and the Mammoths were pushed back. It wasn't always pretty, but ultimately in my clearly biased view it felt like there wasn't lots of dangerous play in Amherst's area. But of course, it only takes a moment to change that and Saints clearly have players who can unlock that particular door. Amherst did create chances too and ultimately were rewarded for the ones they did take
Not sure what comes next and it's hard to believe we have seen the last of the upsets.
Foul count was 26/12 and 4/3 in yellows, well above pace for Amherst.
I was on the RPI team that played Amherst in the Elite 8 in 2019 and had an eerily similar experience. I had never really seen anything like the intensity that Amherst brought to every aspect of the game. My impression of Serpone was that he was kind of an a-hole but that he had his guys firing on all cylinders and operating at their most intimidating. When we played them it was like 40 degees, pouring down rain, their grass field as essentially an unplayable mudpit, but these guys were fired up and swaggering. They had this palpable arrogance about them, like they knew they were the #2 team in the country and they were going to put us down, it was unreal. They scored their first goal and the kid did like a 15 foot knee slide right in front of our bench, and it was just over at that point.
They actually moved the game to the turf at halftime (don't get me started) and we got a goal back and arguably had the run of play in our favor the last 55 minutes or so, but I've got firsthand experience of seeing how their mentality, reputation, and intensity can catch teams off guard and get you boat-raced before you even know what hit you, even in a massively important match. I'm assuming it's a NESCAC thing, that the rivalries there are so intense and the conference is so high-quality that a) the intensity is just at peak levels and b) the top NESCAC teams come out of that conference with a certainty that they're better than anything else in the country has to offer.
Yes LL_Alum.
Very similar situation. SLU seemed to be intimidated from the start (even the coach), with two starters from Saturday's game sitting, most likely because of their size, or lack of. A tall freshman defender who had only played in 7 games all year, was sent to the wolves (mammoths) because of his 6'3" frame. The poor kid immediately got beat and made a desperate slide tackle and yellow card foul right outside the box which led to first goal just 1:20 seconds into the game. His NCAA game lasted all of 80 seconds as he seemed to pull his hamstring (was on crutches from the sidelines the rest of the game) and was helped off the field by the fouled player and good sportsman Ada Okorogheye.
The intimidation, physical size, and constant fouling and some dirty play was not something that SLU was used to. It took 30 minutes and a 3-0 scoreline to wake the SLU players, who could have been very sleepy from being woken up, and made to go outside from the 4am fire alarm at their hotel. Amherst also led in fouls, 26-12. They led 1-0 in kicking a player when on the ground (Laurens ten Cate). The refs let them play and they still got 26 fouls, to SLU's 12. A quicker whistle would certainly have helped SLU. Multiple fouls by players don't seem to give yellow cards either. When SLU finally did wake up it was a great game to watch. SLU played their hearts out. This was probably the worst matchup in the NCAAs they could have had. Amherst on their narrow grass field. I would have given SLU a great shot against any other team in the NCAAs and truly believed, with a little luck, that they could have gone to the final weekend. Once SLU realized that their talent and technical stills can outplay the size and physicality of Amherst, they were able to outplay them but were not able to put enough goals in the net. The shorter defender came in and played a great game. Miles Levy eventually came in and got an assist on a beautiful SLU goal that involved about 6 link up passes until finally a beautiful finish by their Dutch striker.
I'm curious what others think about a style that seems to work for Amherst. Take a narrow grass field. Keep the grass long. Foul constantly and physically intimidate as the refs won't give yellows for accumulation. I believe Amherst leads the county in fouls with 332. The average for the rest of Nescac teams is just under 200. Of course this ends up in ugly soccer but the name of the game is winning right? Is this a problem? Is this a problem with soccer? Is this a problem with how soccer is refereed? Is this not a problem at all? The Amherst coach plays within the rules and wins games. He is rewarded with winning for using this style of play. He uses his home field to his advantage. So why wouldn't he continue?
How I would have loved to watch the game on their turf field, or any wider field, with a faster whistle. I actually thought the refs were ok. But with so many fouls and then walking over and kicking a player on the ground, there should be red.
I hope I don't sound like a sore loser, as SLU knew what they were up against and the coach and players needed to be confident that their talent, toughness and style of play was good enough to beat a bigger, kick, run, and foul team. Believe me, Amherst is very talented and could easily play a game that shows it off.
Would love to hear some thoughts?
I have to say I didn't see the kick, so I can't comment on that. I was also surprised that the grass field wasn't in the really bad shape that I assumed it would be, although there was some amount of slipping and sliding by players on both teams. The fouling and the general antagonistic play by Amherst, though - makes me respect that team and coach less.
Case in point is a play from Saturday I'm surprised nobody has mentioned yet - the yellow card on Amherst #17. #17 got the ball on the wing and controlled it with his hand, the sideline ref immediately signaled a hand ball and the whistle blew and a good 3-4 seconds after the whistle #17 absolutely blasted a shot at the Husson goalie. And then #17 ran into the goalie and roughed him up - yellow card for #17. Complete bush league play, but that kind of play seems to be almost accepted by the Amherst coach.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 13, 2022, 07:17:25 PM
Obviously the fans are on the video side but it's an odd look and a little disconcerting to be staring at a pretty large football stadium that looks empty while a NCAA tourney game is being played.
It's built to fill up with lax fans. :D
It is an odd look. I also don't know why more people don't sit over there, especially during day games. Sun hits that sit wonderfully and as you saw, lots of room to spread out.
Quote from: upthepanthers on November 13, 2022, 05:50:06 PM
After the pens, and F&M player seemed to sprint over to the Oneonta bench resulting in numerous cards and some sort of fight. Tough way to end your season.
Still hoping someone with some insight can chime in on the end of the F&M game. Sure got surly during and (I guess) after the shootout.
Quote from: nescac1 on November 14, 2022, 12:39:31 PM
I'm laughing Saint_Dad, because you've summed up about a decade worth of complaints (and both sides of the debate) about Amherst's soccer program, if you scroll through the archives of the NESCAC board. On the one hand, the coach's personality, the rough / ugly style of play, and the field all receive, to put it mildly, very little love throughout NESCAC (and broader D3 circles, when they are exposed). But on the other, Amherst wins big and does so consistently, brings in great players consistently, and the players seem (unlike the rest of the league) to enjoy playing for him. Part of it can be attributed to the fact that it's never fun to lose consistently to any team, but on the other hand, Williams, Midd, Conn and especially Tufts have all had championship eras lead by HOF-caliber coaches over the past 30 years, and there was never the same sort of animosity directed towards any of those programs. In short, it works for Amherst, but doesn't make a lot of friends outside of Amherst.
Yes, the complaints about Amherst have been detailed and entirely consistent from a range of sources for well over 10+ years. You can't ask people to un-see and un-hear what they see and hear, often numerous times over. And the Amherst program and its fans will concede nothing. In that sense they are impenetrable and nearly cultish.
Saint-Dad, you're right, SLU could not have had a more disastrous start. And then even with a one goal right away within the first five minutes the Amherst players, bench, and especially the coach were throwing tantrums on almost every foul call. They tried to rough up everybody but especially Sibanda. So then you're in a bind about how to defend yourself, how to combat what's happening, and then you unwittingly try to match them and get out of your own game. ten Cate is a histrionic thespian...on literally almost every single call...one minute taking someone out and another minute writhing on the ground in agony. And then even #8 and some others were mock-clapping Sibanda. Just insufferable behavior and very painful to watch. It's a bit like Messiah in a different kind of way....insofar as you get get so focused on the opponent and how difficult it is play them that you're almost immediately not playing your own game.
And then afterwards, Serpone sounds like a perfectly reasonable and even generous and gracious man, praising the opponent, praising SLU coach, praising Sibanda, praising how well SLU held the ball, etc. You can see what recruits and parents would be infatuated. And the same with the players. The contrast is remarkable, stunning, and confusing...making you almost question if what you saw is what you saw. And I've seen Serpone do this after a loss as well. If you get a chance click on the video on the front of the Amherst soccer website.
You SLU folks should feel proud. At 3-0 I thought there was zero chance SLU was going to stay in the game, but they did. Showed a lot of character and eventually a very skilled, attractive style.
Now one thing I don't understand is why the Amherst bench doesn't get more yellows. I saw a lot of teams getting coach and bench yellows for far less. Maybe they do and I I've missed it but one wonders if the refs adjust ot Amherst as well....like ref fatigue where they say we're not going to call fouls past 25....or at a minimum the bar moves and what is considered egregious moves.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 14, 2022, 01:24:01 PM
Now one thing I don't understand is why the Amherst bench doesn't get more yellows. I saw a lot of teams getting coach and bench yellows for far less. Maybe they do and I I've missed it but one wonders if the refs adjust ot Amherst as well....like ref fatigue where they say we're not going to call fouls past 25....or at a minimum the bar moves and what is considered egregious moves.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. The bench antics are very purposeful, there's just no question that this not just encouraged but very much part of their overall strategy. It's chaos soccer and an extremely obnoxious bench is the fuel to the engine.
I really don't understand how a coach is allowed to chirp at the ref like that. I would be all over the 4th official about that. It's very clearly against the rules of the game.
Personally, I find Amherst unwatchable. I was forced into watching this weekend because I wanted to see SLU play. I had to turn it off after 20 minutes. I don't have a horse in that race and just couldn't stomach any more than I did. I have Amherst in my Final 4 because I think their style works for them, but I won't be watching any more of their games. It's just not enjoyable to me.
Quote from: OldNed on November 14, 2022, 01:09:39 PM
Quote from: Saint_Dad on November 14, 2022, 12:09:02 PM
Quote from: LL_Alum on November 13, 2022, 08:35:48 PM
Quote from: EnmoreCat on November 13, 2022, 06:22:48 PM
St Lawrence 2 Amherst 4
Sadly work interfered with my viewing in part, but I came away with nothing but respect for the way Saints play and the pro-Saints posters have every reason to be proud of their team. Nevertheless, it's not the first time Amherst has started hot and on the first goal, there were two other players who were ready to score. The 3-0 scoreline was as much about momentum and Saints really took over about 30 minutes in and at 3-1, I felt nervous, knowing the potency of their attack. The 4th Amherst goal calmed the nerves, but everyone knew it wasn't going to finish 4-1.
4-2 not long into the second half and the Saints' tails were up and the Mammoths were pushed back. It wasn't always pretty, but ultimately in my clearly biased view it felt like there wasn't lots of dangerous play in Amherst's area. But of course, it only takes a moment to change that and Saints clearly have players who can unlock that particular door. Amherst did create chances too and ultimately were rewarded for the ones they did take
Not sure what comes next and it's hard to believe we have seen the last of the upsets.
Foul count was 26/12 and 4/3 in yellows, well above pace for Amherst.
I was on the RPI team that played Amherst in the Elite 8 in 2019 and had an eerily similar experience. I had never really seen anything like the intensity that Amherst brought to every aspect of the game. My impression of Serpone was that he was kind of an a-hole but that he had his guys firing on all cylinders and operating at their most intimidating. When we played them it was like 40 degees, pouring down rain, their grass field as essentially an unplayable mudpit, but these guys were fired up and swaggering. They had this palpable arrogance about them, like they knew they were the #2 team in the country and they were going to put us down, it was unreal. They scored their first goal and the kid did like a 15 foot knee slide right in front of our bench, and it was just over at that point.
They actually moved the game to the turf at halftime (don't get me started) and we got a goal back and arguably had the run of play in our favor the last 55 minutes or so, but I've got firsthand experience of seeing how their mentality, reputation, and intensity can catch teams off guard and get you boat-raced before you even know what hit you, even in a massively important match. I'm assuming it's a NESCAC thing, that the rivalries there are so intense and the conference is so high-quality that a) the intensity is just at peak levels and b) the top NESCAC teams come out of that conference with a certainty that they're better than anything else in the country has to offer.
Yes LL_Alum.
Very similar situation. SLU seemed to be intimidated from the start (even the coach), with two starters from Saturday's game sitting, most likely because of their size, or lack of. A tall freshman defender who had only played in 7 games all year, was sent to the wolves (mammoths) because of his 6'3" frame. The poor kid immediately got beat and made a desperate slide tackle and yellow card foul right outside the box which led to first goal just 1:20 seconds into the game. His NCAA game lasted all of 80 seconds as he seemed to pull his hamstring (was on crutches from the sidelines the rest of the game) and was helped off the field by the fouled player and good sportsman Ada Okorogheye.
The intimidation, physical size, and constant fouling and some dirty play was not something that SLU was used to. It took 30 minutes and a 3-0 scoreline to wake the SLU players, who could have been very sleepy from being woken up, and made to go outside from the 4am fire alarm at their hotel. Amherst also led in fouls, 26-12. They led 1-0 in kicking a player when on the ground (Laurens ten Cate). The refs let them play and they still got 26 fouls, to SLU's 12. A quicker whistle would certainly have helped SLU. Multiple fouls by players don't seem to give yellow cards either. When SLU finally did wake up it was a great game to watch. SLU played their hearts out. This was probably the worst matchup in the NCAAs they could have had. Amherst on their narrow grass field. I would have given SLU a great shot against any other team in the NCAAs and truly believed, with a little luck, that they could have gone to the final weekend. Once SLU realized that their talent and technical stills can outplay the size and physicality of Amherst, they were able to outplay them but were not able to put enough goals in the net. The shorter defender came in and played a great game. Miles Levy eventually came in and got an assist on a beautiful SLU goal that involved about 6 link up passes until finally a beautiful finish by their Dutch striker.
I'm curious what others think about a style that seems to work for Amherst. Take a narrow grass field. Keep the grass long. Foul constantly and physically intimidate as the refs won't give yellows for accumulation. I believe Amherst leads the county in fouls with 332. The average for the rest of Nescac teams is just under 200. Of course this ends up in ugly soccer but the name of the game is winning right? Is this a problem? Is this a problem with soccer? Is this a problem with how soccer is refereed? Is this not a problem at all? The Amherst coach plays within the rules and wins games. He is rewarded with winning for using this style of play. He uses his home field to his advantage. So why wouldn't he continue?
How I would have loved to watch the game on their turf field, or any wider field, with a faster whistle. I actually thought the refs were ok. But with so many fouls and then walking over and kicking a player on the ground, there should be red.
I hope I don't sound like a sore loser, as SLU knew what they were up against and the coach and players needed to be confident that their talent, toughness and style of play was good enough to beat a bigger, kick, run, and foul team. Believe me, Amherst is very talented and could easily play a game that shows it off.
Would love to hear some thoughts?
I have to say I didn't see the kick, so I can't comment on that. I was also surprised that the grass field wasn't in the really bad shape that I assumed it would be, although there was some amount of slipping and sliding by players on both teams. The fouling and the general antagonistic play by Amherst, though - makes me respect that team and coach less.
Case in point is a play from Saturday I'm surprised nobody has mentioned yet - the yellow card on Amherst #17. #17 got the ball on the wing and controlled it with his hand, the sideline ref immediately signaled a hand ball and the whistle blew and a good 3-4 seconds after the whistle #17 absolutely blasted a shot at the Husson goalie. And then #17 ran into the goalie and roughed him up - yellow card for #17. Complete bush league play, but that kind of play seems to be almost accepted by the Amherst coach.
From what I've heard I wouldn't say its accepted. I'd say its encouraged and rewarded. Refs seem to be intimidated and don't have the balls to hand out the yellows or reds. Serpone was smart enough to get 17 out of the game right after that as that play alone was worthy of two yellows. If the refs don't control the game by handing out the fouls and yellows, and intimidation from the bench, then its tough to play soccer when the other team is allowed to play rugby. Very, very frustrating.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 14, 2022, 01:24:01 PM
Quote from: nescac1 on November 14, 2022, 12:39:31 PM
And then afterwards, Serpone sounds like a perfectly reasonable and even generous and gracious man, praising the opponent, praising SLU coach, praising Sibanda, praising how well SLU held the ball, etc. You can see what recruits and parents would be infatuated. And the same with the players. The contrast is remarkable, stunning, and confusing...making you almost question if what you saw is what you saw. And I've seen Serpone do this after a loss as well. If you get a chance click on the video on the front of the Amherst soccer website.
I think you've summed it up @paulnewman. Serpone's recruiting is a well oiled machine -- the biggest and best, most organized we came across. My son got a lot of love -- a couple of visits to campus, numerous calls and texts from Serpone -- by far the most from any program. In the end, my son didn't get an offer. My point is that Serpone expends a huge effort on recruiting. I can only imagine the amount lavished on a top recruit! It's head-turning! Or, as you say, infatuation. If he got an offer my son probably would have gone, despite not loving the style of play, and the pre-game locker room hype that he saw.
Off the field, I think both Coach Serpone and his players are gentlemen and good people. As others have said, they also have the skill to play beautiful soccer, not the thuggish style they have. I can't comment on the field antics as I have no experience with them.
How about we end this conversation, or move it the the NESCAC board?! Nothing new here, it's the same old trope, and giving them the airtime is what they want. Until the refs grow a set and put an end to games of 26-12 fouls, 4/3 cards, this will continue. Or perhaps the Amherst President grows a conscience and decides it isn't worth winning this way. Until one of those things happens, let's talk about soccer, not whatever it is Amherst plays.
Quote from: nescacfan94 on November 14, 2022, 01:57:08 PM
How about we end this conversation, or move it the the NESCAC board?! Nothing new here, it's the same old trope, and giving them the airtime is what they want. Until the refs grow a set and put an end to games of 26-12 fouls, 4/3 cards, this will continue. Or perhaps the Amherst President grows a conscience and decides it isn't worth winning this way. Until one of those things happens, let's talk about soccer, not whatever it is Amherst plays.
Yes, the sheer thrill of it, that's what I turn up for. My part time gig is as an Amfluencer, paid for by the Ammentions. It's been a cracking year.
A few impressions, mostly skipping my quad of greatest interest...
Not the best year to be undefeated...W CT didn't get in and Messiah and North Central are out (with the first two still unbeaten)
Kudos to Oneonta St. I doubted them and doubted they would advance past Tufts and clearly I was very wrong. I know Tufts wasn't as talented and experienced as in recent past years but they are still tough to break down and a lot to handle.
If Oneonta plays Amherst they should be more prepared than most, and the Tufts game should help as will the Bowdoin game if they get by Bowdoin. The Polar Bears obviously know Amherst well. So assuming MW can't trouble Amherst much at least the Mammoths will have to get through Oneonta or Bowdoin.
Shoutout to St Thomas. The Celts made a splash early, went off the radar just a bit for a while, but they've only lost one game all year. In Sweet 16 in very first NCAA D3 tournament.
GAC and St Olaf both get through very difficult games and now have a conference final rematch. Heartbreak for North Central but the Cardinals had a phenomenal season. UWEC showed well and took GAC to the brink. Is there a better GK name in the country than Spencer Banks?
Chicago did what it needed to do and now has the full weight of tournament favorite all by themselves....which I think they will handle just fine.
I think like a few others, I made a mess of the Stevens quad. Stevens wasn't necessarily convincing, but they advanced and that's the bottom line. Not sure in hindsight why so many of us picked Middlebury here. The Rowan game was a toss-up game but a toss-game that I thought Midd would win. And Rowan might have deserved better with the Ducks game.
I did not see Catholic emerging but I also didn't trust CNU in a big spot. Great weekend for the Catholic program.
Catholic gets Hopkins next and that just seems like a bridge too far. Hopkins has got some nice momentum and now has a golden opportunity to reach the final 4. I would expect a potential Stevens-Hopkins clash to go down the wire with Hop's newfound offensive punch perhaps the difference. Cortland can score but will they be able to score on Stevens and then probably Hopkins?
Disappointing showing for three of the Ohio teams...CWRU, OWU, and JCU....expected OWU to advance and Serpone vs Martin would have been a storyline....didn't necessarily expect CWRU or JCU to advance but did fully expect them to show better.
Another winner.....grass fields...they held up better than many of us expected...from Bowdoin to Amherst to Grantham to Gambier..
No Kenyon or Washington and Lee predictions, @PaulNewman?
Quote from: Another Mom on November 14, 2022, 01:52:42 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 14, 2022, 01:24:01 PM
Quote from: nescac1 on November 14, 2022, 12:39:31 PM
And then afterwards, Serpone sounds like a perfectly reasonable and even generous and gracious man, praising the opponent, praising SLU coach, praising Sibanda, praising how well SLU held the ball, etc. You can see what recruits and parents would be infatuated. And the same with the players. The contrast is remarkable, stunning, and confusing...making you almost question if what you saw is what you saw. And I've seen Serpone do this after a loss as well. If you get a chance click on the video on the front of the Amherst soccer website.
I think you've summed it up @paulnewman. Serpone's recruiting is a well oiled machine -- the biggest and best, most organized we came across. My son got a lot of love -- a couple of visits to campus, numerous calls and texts from Serpone -- by far the most from any program. In the end, my son didn't get an offer. My point is that Serpone expends a huge effort on recruiting. I can only imagine the amount lavished on a top recruit! It's head-turning! Or, as you say, infatuation. If he got an offer my son probably would have gone, despite not loving the style of play, and the pre-game locker room hype that he saw.
Off the field, I think both Coach Serpone and his players are gentlemen and good people. As others have said, they also have the skill to play beautiful soccer, not the thuggish style they have. I can't comment on the field antics as I have no experience with them.
I agree with nescac94 about moving on, but it's amazing to me that you are STILL infatuated....and AFTER he didn't take your kid and AFTER everything you've read here.
I do hope you get to go to Gambier especially if you've never been.
And RE: a prediction....absolutely not.
Quote from: nescacfan94 on November 14, 2022, 01:57:08 PM
How about we end this conversation, or move it the the NESCAC board?! Nothing new here, it's the same old trope, and giving them the airtime is what they want. Until the refs grow a set and put an end to games of 26-12 fouls, 4/3 cards, this will continue. Or perhaps the Amherst President grows a conscience and decides it isn't worth winning this way. Until one of those things happens, let's talk about soccer, not whatever it is Amherst plays.
"...Until the refs grow a set.." this is just uncalled for.
Poor wording but there is a tendency for American refs to call a lenient game and be reluctant to issue cards. Just the way it is.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 14, 2022, 02:21:24 PM
UWEC showed well and took GAC to the brink. Is there a better GK name in the country than Spencer Banks?
Except that Spencer was not in goal during the shootout. Coach substituted in 6'6" Jakob Leonard who had very limited minutes all season. Jakob stopped 3 shots but the GAC keeper stopped 4. All 14 PK shots were on frame. I said it in my previous post about the game but keepers stopping 7 of 14 PK was very impressive.
Quote from: MNBob on November 14, 2022, 03:22:35 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 14, 2022, 02:21:24 PM
UWEC showed well and took GAC to the brink. Is there a better GK name in the country than Spencer Banks?
Except that Spencer was not in goal during the shootout. Coach substituted in 6'6" Jakob Leonard who had very limited minutes all season. Jakob stopped 3 shots but the GAC keeper stopped 4. All 14 PK shots were on frame. I said it in my previous post about the game but keepers stopping 7 of 14 PK was very impressive.
Or... :-)
(I didn't see it, so I'll take your word... I saw some great PKs this weekend, and I saw a lot of guys tense up and put a ball on frame that was way too easy for the goalie... That's the nature of the beast.)
Video (https://portal.stretchinternet.com/gac/) On Demand
PKs start at 2:51:24
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 14, 2022, 01:06:40 PM
Every sport will have an organization that decides to lean into the villain status. When you play, it's your team versus the universe, and you see them get increasingly bought into that model as they continue to see good results. It's difficult to maintain, because EVERYONE wants to take you down, but, again all of that hatred and envy makes people play their (Amherst's) match.
The Centennial has a team that is in the Amherst zone, but primarily through their "energetic" bench, applying a lot of pressure, and being unafraid to foul a lot to slow the other team down. It's interesting to note, they don't always play this way. But they sure do crank things up against Hopkins.
As an aside, I went to go watch Hop and F&M play in the CC semis at Haverford some years back (2018?) and remarked on these boards that the Hopkins bench was incredibly flat/quiet. Everyone was sitting, including the coaches. At the time I found it very odd behavior. Hopkins lost, I think 2-1, but it kind of never felt like the boys were in it. Watching them play each other this year, it occurred to me... I think the Hopkins coaches made a very purposeful decision back in 2018 to just not engage with F&M's energy. Don't try to play their game, including all the stuff going on with their bench. I think it resulted in a bit of a flat demeanor in 2018, but this year the Hop bench was livelier, but still... Coaches sitting quietly for long stretches sends a message.
I say all of that to say this: If I'm the opposing coach when playing Amherst, I'm in the refs ear BEFORE the game, pointing out this team (Am.) leads the nation in fouls and be ready with the cards. And I'm reminding him early on during the match. I know sometimes that can backfire, but I think it's worth it against Amherst. And you just have to get your players ready... There just can't be a surprise that they are gonna play like that... I know... Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth... But you have to walk into that game ready for nonsense.
I could not agree with this thought more. If I were a coach or a team captain, i would tell the ref all about the Amherst strategy and in the name of "keeping the kids safe" i would encourage him to give out yellows for accumulated fouls whether they do it for fouls by a single player or on a single player. I watched the Trinity Amherst game and Amherst had 5 fouls in the first 10 minutes and no card, no warning. The tone was set.
I personally think the Amherst strategy is not long lived as more and more kids are skilled.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 14, 2022, 03:29:12 PM
Quote from: MNBob on November 14, 2022, 03:22:35 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 14, 2022, 02:21:24 PM
UWEC showed well and took GAC to the brink. Is there a better GK name in the country than Spencer Banks?
Except that Spencer was not in goal during the shootout. Coach substituted in 6'6" Jakob Leonard who had very limited minutes all season. Jakob stopped 3 shots but the GAC keeper stopped 4. All 14 PK shots were on frame. I said it in my previous post about the game but keepers stopping 7 of 14 PK was very impressive.
Or... :-)
(I didn't see it, so I'll take your word... I saw some great PKs this weekend, and I saw a lot of guys tense up and put a ball on frame that was way too easy for the goalie... That's the nature of the beast.)
There was certainly a few PK attempts that were not as well taken. The final save by the GAC GK however was outstanding.
Kenyon appears to be the only host not playing the early game. I wonder if this was by choice or if there is some arcane rule whereby playing early went to Williams because they took the spot of the #1 seed in the quad.
New to the soccer boards after years on hoops and football, but curious ... does anyone not think that the referees know all about team reputations, good or bad? One of my close friends - a NESCAC grad from many moons ago - can give me a full run-down of each team, each coach, and each player before he heads out to ref a game. Let's give these refs some credit here - they know exactly who they are covering, for good or for bad!
Quote from: JEFFFAN on November 14, 2022, 05:09:58 PM
New to the soccer boards after years on hoops and football, but curious ... does anyone not think that the referees know all about team reputations, good or bad? One of my close friends - a NESCAC grad from many moons ago - can give me a full run-down of each team, each coach, and each player before he heads out to ref a game. Let's give these refs some credit here - they know exactly who they are covering, for good or for bad!
can confirm this as a current NCAA D1-D3 referee, myself and my closest peers take every game like it's our last. we lurk on these boards especially during NCAA tournament to get valuable insights that people here can provide for teams that we may not normally see.
just some insight :)
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 13, 2022, 08:14:59 PM
2) I've been saying all year, if Hopkins had a finisher, they would move from a really good team, to a great team. Well, FR winger/striker Scotty Coleman is emerging as "that guy." He scored the dagger goal last night to pretty much finish the game with the second goal. Tonight. Wow. Pulls down a brace and they were the kind of goals Hopkins needs. When you open up the opposition so consistently, you just need a guy to put the ball in the back of the net when obvious chances emerge. This kid is doing that. I said to my wife early in the second... This Coleman kid is a problem. (He had only scored 2 goals on the season... Not like this is coming out of nowhere... It's kind of coming out of nowhere.)
Coleman looked good fairly early in the season against Lycoming. To my knowledge, that was his first major playing time and I thought he really showed promise. He got very little playing time afterwards, though. Not sure if it was an injury or just hesitation to play a freshman.
I agree with Hopkins92, though. He has demonstrated a willingness to take shots from 18 yds + and a shooting accuracy that Hopkins sorely needs. I have also been impressed with Jackson Shapiro, another freshman who didn't play much early in the season but has seen significant minutes in the first two playoff games. Excellent ball skills and feeds Coleman well.
Quote from: regularguy on November 14, 2022, 05:43:38 PM
Quote from: JEFFFAN on November 14, 2022, 05:09:58 PM
New to the soccer boards after years on hoops and football, but curious ... does anyone not think that the referees know all about team reputations, good or bad? One of my close friends - a NESCAC grad from many moons ago - can give me a full run-down of each team, each coach, and each player before he heads out to ref a game. Let's give these refs some credit here - they know exactly who they are covering, for good or for bad!
can confirm this as a current NCAA D1-D3 referee, myself and my closest peers take every game like it's our last. we lurk on these boards especially during NCAA tournament to get valuable insights that people here can provide for teams that we may not normally see.
just some insight :)
It's nice to know refs like to be well informed about the teams that they have to ref for, but how do you account for the seeming lack of accountability for teams like an Amherst? Is it simply a case of foul fatigue where a ref doesn't feel he or she can call every single infraction since there are so many of them?
I don't know if assigning of referee's has changed since my days of coaching, but a number of referees had a vested interest in keeping home coaches happy so that they would be in rotation for the season. Whether because it was close to home, or whatever. Bob Reasso at Rutgers was big into get it into refs ears that he would file a complaint to never have them referee games at Rutgers because he didn't like the way they called a game.
I am not saying this is what happens at Amherst to explain what they get away with. What I will say, and I think this applies very broadly, is that referees are more comfortable with the obvious fouls ... shirt grabbing, etc., then the antics on the sidelines, or the defensive hug inside the box..
I don't know why I dove into this topic, but hey. Give me a yellow.
SC.
Quote from: regularguy on November 14, 2022, 05:43:38 PM
Quote from: JEFFFAN on November 14, 2022, 05:09:58 PM
New to the soccer boards after years on hoops and football, but curious ... does anyone not think that the referees know all about team reputations, good or bad? One of my close friends - a NESCAC grad from many moons ago - can give me a full run-down of each team, each coach, and each player before he heads out to ref a game. Let's give these refs some credit here - they know exactly who they are covering, for good or for bad!
can confirm this as a current NCAA D1-D3 referee, myself and my closest peers take every game like it's our last. we lurk on these boards especially during NCAA tournament to get valuable insights that people here can provide for teams that we may not normally see.
just some insight :)
Interesting to know Jeffan, am sure you're aware that non-Amherst players know how to foul too.
Quote from: regularguy on November 14, 2022, 05:43:38 PM
Quote from: JEFFFAN on November 14, 2022, 05:09:58 PM
New to the soccer boards after years on hoops and football, but curious ... does anyone not think that the referees know all about team reputations, good or bad? One of my close friends - a NESCAC grad from many moons ago - can give me a full run-down of each team, each coach, and each player before he heads out to ref a game. Let's give these refs some credit here - they know exactly who they are covering, for good or for bad!
can confirm this as a current NCAA D1-D3 referee, myself and my closest peers take every game like it's our last. we lurk on these boards especially during NCAA tournament to get valuable insights that people here can provide for teams that we may not normally see.
just some insight :)
Lol, regularguy...
You must think the average IQ is well, well below average.
You were "born" here six days ago...you started a bracket pool...predicted a Gambier River moving games to turf...and now, for the encore you're suggesting that top level college referees (including yourself) come on here to see what a bunch of highly biased, sometimes angry, sometimes deluded, and sometimes clueless fans here like myself on an internet chat board think and reveal for tips to assist said high level referees in the performance of their duties.
Wow.
Quote from: Hopkins Walk-On on November 14, 2022, 05:53:07 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 13, 2022, 08:14:59 PM
2) I've been saying all year, if Hopkins had a finisher, they would move from a really good team, to a great team. Well, FR winger/striker Scotty Coleman is emerging as "that guy." He scored the dagger goal last night to pretty much finish the game with the second goal. Tonight. Wow. Pulls down a brace and they were the kind of goals Hopkins needs. When you open up the opposition so consistently, you just need a guy to put the ball in the back of the net when obvious chances emerge. This kid is doing that. I said to my wife early in the second... This Coleman kid is a problem. (He had only scored 2 goals on the season... Not like this is coming out of nowhere... It's kind of coming out of nowhere.)
Coleman looked good fairly early in the season against Lycoming. To my knowledge, that was his first major playing time and I thought he really showed promise. He got very little playing time afterwards, though. Not sure if it was an injury or just hesitation to play a freshman.
I agree with Hopkins92, though. He has demonstrated a willingness to take shots from 18 yds + and a shooting accuracy that Hopkins sorely needs. I have also been impressed with Jackson Shapiro, another freshman who didn't play much early in the season but has seen significant minutes in the first two playoff games. Excellent ball skills and feeds Coleman well.
Great call on Shapiro... Future is bright on the attacking front. That kid was everywhere, and I was like "whoa, where'd this come from." Pretty wild...
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 14, 2022, 07:13:25 PM
Quote from: regularguy on November 14, 2022, 05:43:38 PM
Quote from: JEFFFAN on November 14, 2022, 05:09:58 PM
New to the soccer boards after years on hoops and football, but curious ... does anyone not think that the referees know all about team reputations, good or bad? One of my close friends - a NESCAC grad from many moons ago - can give me a full run-down of each team, each coach, and each player before he heads out to ref a game. Let's give these refs some credit here - they know exactly who they are covering, for good or for bad!
can confirm this as a current NCAA D1-D3 referee, myself and my closest peers take every game like it's our last. we lurk on these boards especially during NCAA tournament to get valuable insights that people here can provide for teams that we may not normally see.
just some insight :)
Lol, regularguy...
You must think the average IQ is well, well below average.
You were "born" here six days ago...you started a bracket pool...predicted a Gambier River moving games to turf...and now, for the encore you're suggesting that top level college referees (including yourself) come on here to see what a bunch of highly biased, sometimes angry, sometimes deluded, and sometimes clueless fans here like myself on an internet chat board think and reveal for tips to assist said high level referees in the performance of their duties.
Wow.
i will just go back to being a logged out user then. thanks for the fun. enjoy the bracket challenge.
regularguy, it's that easy? As a high level referee I'm sure you're used to taking a little guff. I mean, isn't that exactly why you're here...to learn how to deal with difficult customers?
Please explain how I got it all horribly wrong. Show me a yellow and stick around.
(https://media.tenor.com/TaE65c6qyUsAAAAd/soccer-yellow.gif)
Quote from: Saint of Old on November 14, 2022, 09:58:48 AM
These things are hard hard to win man, and believe it or not the magic ingredient this time of year (besides) hunger and confidence is LadyLuck. That is your trifecta in November, unfortunately some teams just run out of that third requirement. Messiah has been lucky. I have personally experienced a dance playing before the craziest by far crowd in D3 (before they won a single Chip) What people don't realize is that Messiah was a sick sick team way before 2000. Always strong, just didn't win the big one. Still even for a program this good you need loads and loads of luck to win almost a dozen Chips in a short span.
Who does Lady Luck favor now, there are no sub-par or undeserving teams left so Luck will play a big part.
So, let me understand your post. Messiah has won 11 Nattys and it is because they are lucky? Did you really write that? I have been a sports fan my whole life and played multiple sports. There may have been few lucky moments; but when any team in any sport wins 11 Nattys, it is not because the team "has been luck". Ridiculous post
Quote from: paclassic89 on November 14, 2022, 09:03:17 PM
(https://media.tenor.com/TaE65c6qyUsAAAAd/soccer-yellow.gif)
Harsh, but fair.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 14, 2022, 04:36:56 PM
Kenyon appears to be the only host not playing the early game. I wonder if this was by choice or if there is some arcane rule whereby playing early went to Williams because they took the spot of the #1 seed in the quad.
PN — I was wondering this as well, and I think it is simply because the games are played top to bottom in the bracket. I was going to try to find some old brackets to confirm, but that's the best I can tell.
Back to the tourney...
I was very surprised to see that Williams, one of the wealthiest D3s in the country only has one asst coach...and his official Williams email is a gmail.com address.
I was pretty unfamiliar with Coach Siebert but was very impressed with him reading about him and watching the two short press conferences this weekend. He was quite detailed about the team's approach, very grateful, and spontaneously offered genuine praise for both NYU and Messiah. I got a little bit of a Reuben Burk vibe.
The Messiah group -- Coach McCarty, Groothoff and Pavlovich -- was pure class. Had to be unimaginable that they were out as they sat there but no excuses, no externalizing, no resentment. Messiah is the gold standard and I have no doubt they will continue to be the gold standard.
Quote from: FBALLISLIFE on November 14, 2022, 10:22:28 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 14, 2022, 04:36:56 PM
Kenyon appears to be the only host not playing the early game. I wonder if this was by choice or if there is some arcane rule whereby playing early went to Williams because they took the spot of the #1 seed in the quad.
PN — I was wondering this as well, and I think it is simply because the games are played top to bottom in the bracket. I was going to try to find some old brackets to confirm, but that's the best I can tell.
Interesting. I've always been under the impression that the host or at least top seed left gets to pick and that they almost always picked the earlier game to have a few hours of more rest....but, that said, 11:00 am is early and maybe too early for some.
Quote from: Fitz@615 on November 14, 2022, 09:05:24 PM
Quote from: Saint of Old on November 14, 2022, 09:58:48 AM
These things are hard hard to win man, and believe it or not the magic ingredient this time of year (besides) hunger and confidence is LadyLuck. That is your trifecta in November, unfortunately some teams just run out of that third requirement. Messiah has been lucky. I have personally experienced a dance playing before the craziest by far crowd in D3 (before they won a single Chip) What people don't realize is that Messiah was a sick sick team way before 2000. Always strong, just didn't win the big one. Still even for a program this good you need loads and loads of luck to win almost a dozen Chips in a short span.
Who does Lady Luck favor now, there are no sub-par or undeserving teams left so Luck will play a big part.
So, let me understand your post. Messiah has won 11 Nattys and it is because they are lucky? Did you really write that? I have been a sports fan my whole life and played multiple sports. There may have been few lucky moments; but when any team in any sport wins 11 Nattys, it is not because the team "has been luck". Ridiculous post
In many of them years they were not the best even in the area. York (pa) was the better team. Super close together too.
Quote from: Fitz@615 on November 14, 2022, 09:05:24 PM
Quote from: Saint of Old on November 14, 2022, 09:58:48 AM
These things are hard hard to win man, and believe it or not the magic ingredient this time of year (besides) hunger and confidence is LadyLuck. That is your trifecta in November, unfortunately some teams just run out of that third requirement. Messiah has been lucky. I have personally experienced a dance playing before the craziest by far crowd in D3 (before they won a single Chip) What people don't realize is that Messiah was a sick sick team way before 2000. Always strong, just didn't win the big one. Still even for a program this good you need loads and loads of luck to win almost a dozen Chips in a short span.
Who does Lady Luck favor now, there are no sub-par or undeserving teams left so Luck will play a big part.
So, let me understand your post. Messiah has won 11 Nattys and it is because they are lucky? Did you really write that? I have been a sports fan my whole life and played multiple sports. There may have been few lucky moments; but when any team in any sport wins 11 Nattys, it is not because the team "has been luck". Ridiculous post
You need loads of Luck to win 1 much less 11, but educate us all oh ye great football master Fitz
Quote from: Convict charlie on November 14, 2022, 10:54:52 PM
Quote from: Fitz@615 on November 14, 2022, 09:05:24 PM
Quote from: Saint of Old on November 14, 2022, 09:58:48 AM
These things are hard hard to win man, and believe it or not the magic ingredient this time of year (besides) hunger and confidence is LadyLuck. That is your trifecta in November, unfortunately some teams just run out of that third requirement. Messiah has been lucky. I have personally experienced a dance playing before the craziest by far crowd in D3 (before they won a single Chip) What people don't realize is that Messiah was a sick sick team way before 2000. Always strong, just didn't win the big one. Still even for a program this good you need loads and loads of luck to win almost a dozen Chips in a short span.
Who does Lady Luck favor now, there are no sub-par or undeserving teams left so Luck will play a big part.
So, let me understand your post. Messiah has won 11 Nattys and it is because they are lucky? Did you really write that? I have been a sports fan my whole life and played multiple sports. There may have been few lucky moments; but when any team in any sport wins 11 Nattys, it is not because the team "has been luck". Ridiculous post
In many of them years they were not the best even in the area. York (pa) was the better team. Super close together too.
Speaking of bad luck. From 2005-2012, York was knocked out of the NCAA's after going to PKs 5 times. They had some great players in that era but just couldn't put a run together in the tournament
Somehow, I think University of Chicago will take pride in the way it was described by the University of St. Thomas in its press release about their upcoming Sweet 16 matchup.
"Men's Soccer to face Academic Powerhouse Chicago in Sweet 16"
"In just the first year of NCAA Division III competition, UST Men's Soccer impressed by qualifying for the Sweet 16 round in Chicago this weekend. After defeating Chapman and Pacific Lutheran in the first two rounds, the Celts will face top five academic powerhouse University of Chicago with a trip to the elite eight on the line."
https://ustcelts.com/sports/msoc/2022-23/releases/20221114ny2nhr
No mention that Chicago is pretty good at soccer too. ;D
Quote from: paclassic89 on November 14, 2022, 11:26:48 PM
Quote from: Convict charlie on November 14, 2022, 10:54:52 PM
Quote from: Fitz@615 on November 14, 2022, 09:05:24 PM
Quote from: Saint of Old on November 14, 2022, 09:58:48 AM
These things are hard hard to win man, and believe it or not the magic ingredient this time of year (besides) hunger and confidence is LadyLuck. That is your trifecta in November, unfortunately some teams just run out of that third requirement. Messiah has been lucky. I have personally experienced a dance playing before the craziest by far crowd in D3 (before they won a single Chip) What people don't realize is that Messiah was a sick sick team way before 2000. Always strong, just didn't win the big one. Still even for a program this good you need loads and loads of luck to win almost a dozen Chips in a short span.
Who does Lady Luck favor now, there are no sub-par or undeserving teams left so Luck will play a big part.
So, let me understand your post. Messiah has won 11 Nattys and it is because they are lucky? Did you really write that? I have been a sports fan my whole life and played multiple sports. There may have been few lucky moments; but when any team in any sport wins 11 Nattys, it is not because the team "has been luck". Ridiculous post
In many of them years they were not the best even in the area. York (pa) was the better team. Super close together too.
Speaking of bad luck. From 2005-2012, York was knocked out of the NCAA's after going to PKs 5 times. They had some great players in that era but just couldn't put a run together in the tournament
Careful, AngryFitz might come after you as well :)
Quote from: Fitz@615 on November 14, 2022, 09:05:24 PM
Quote from: Saint of Old on November 14, 2022, 09:58:48 AM
These things are hard hard to win man, and believe it or not the magic ingredient this time of year (besides) hunger and confidence is LadyLuck. That is your trifecta in November, unfortunately some teams just run out of that third requirement. Messiah has been lucky. I have personally experienced a dance playing before the craziest by far crowd in D3 (before they won a single Chip) What people don't realize is that Messiah was a sick sick team way before 2000. Always strong, just didn't win the big one. Still even for a program this good you need loads and loads of luck to win almost a dozen Chips in a short span.
Who does Lady Luck favor now, there are no sub-par or undeserving teams left so Luck will play a big part.
So, let me understand your post. Messiah has won 11 Nattys and it is because they are lucky? Did you really write that? I have been a sports fan my whole life and played multiple sports. There may have been few lucky moments; but when any team in any sport wins 11 Nattys, it is not because the team "has been luck". Ridiculous post
I suppose what you mean is that "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." It's true, of course. But you cannot seriously deny that a little of that luck often paves the way to the championship. Messiah was positively dominant this year. Blind luck that a 6-win Williams team not only made the tourney, but was pitted against them in Round 2. Even then, Messiah wins that game 11 out of 12 times, probably more. Pure luck that on that particular Sunday, they picked up the dice and rolled snake eyes. If you don't think there's ever any luck involved, I guess you have to believe Messiah was going to lose on Sunday regardless of the opponent. That seems a little more ridiculous to me.
Quote from: FBALLISLIFE on November 15, 2022, 07:25:53 AM
Quote from: Fitz@615 on November 14, 2022, 09:05:24 PM
Quote from: Saint of Old on November 14, 2022, 09:58:48 AM
These things are hard hard to win man, and believe it or not the magic ingredient this time of year (besides) hunger and confidence is LadyLuck. That is your trifecta in November, unfortunately some teams just run out of that third requirement. Messiah has been lucky. I have personally experienced a dance playing before the craziest by far crowd in D3 (before they won a single Chip) What people don't realize is that Messiah was a sick sick team way before 2000. Always strong, just didn't win the big one. Still even for a program this good you need loads and loads of luck to win almost a dozen Chips in a short span.
Who does Lady Luck favor now, there are no sub-par or undeserving teams left so Luck will play a big part.
So, let me understand your post. Messiah has won 11 Nattys and it is because they are lucky? Did you really write that? I have been a sports fan my whole life and played multiple sports. There may have been few lucky moments; but when any team in any sport wins 11 Nattys, it is not because the team "has been luck". Ridiculous post
I suppose what you mean is that "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." It's true, of course. But you cannot seriously deny that a little of that luck often paves the way to the championship. Messiah was positively dominant this year. Blind luck that a 6-win Williams team not only made the tourney, but was pitted against them in Round 2. Even then, Messiah wins that game 11 out of 12 times, probably more. Pure luck that on that particular Sunday, they picked up the dice and rolled snake eyes. If you don't think there's ever any luck involved, I guess you have to believe Messiah was going to lose on Sunday regardless of the opponent. That seems a little more ridiculous to me.
Funny thing is, I made the point that Messiah and her fans were quality and consistent performers before 2000, and maybe should have won before then, they just maybe lacked a bit of luck.
This board has many intelligent football observers who understand the nuance, fickleness and needing everything to align in order to win a Chip, but some folks like Fritz are just here to demonstrate their brilliance in soccer.
Like a great Ping Pong player once said, "Ridiculous is as Ridiculous does".
Luck absolutely plays a role; hosting/playing surface, potential paths to the final 4, injuries, weather, etc.
Throw in late equalizers/winners and even officiating (human error).
Quote from: FBALLISLIFE on November 14, 2022, 10:22:28 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 14, 2022, 04:36:56 PM
Kenyon appears to be the only host not playing the early game. I wonder if this was by choice or if there is some arcane rule whereby playing early went to Williams because they took the spot of the #1 seed in the quad.
PN — I was wondering this as well, and I think it is simply because the games are played top to bottom in the bracket. I was going to try to find some old brackets to confirm, but that's the best I can tell.
Confirmed. Last year, each sectional was played top to bottom, regardless of who hosted. Chicago hosted the top-right sectional, but they were in the bottom half of that region and played in the second game in Round 3.
Quote from: FBALLISLIFE on November 15, 2022, 09:33:55 AM
Quote from: FBALLISLIFE on November 14, 2022, 10:22:28 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 14, 2022, 04:36:56 PM
Kenyon appears to be the only host not playing the early game. I wonder if this was by choice or if there is some arcane rule whereby playing early went to Williams because they took the spot of the #1 seed in the quad.
PN — I was wondering this as well, and I think it is simply because the games are played top to bottom in the bracket. I was going to try to find some old brackets to confirm, but that's the best I can tell.
Confirmed. Last year, each sectional was played top to bottom, regardless of who hosted. Chicago hosted the top-right sectional, but they were in the bottom half of that region and played in the second game in Round 3.
Thanks for figuring it out. Seems ridiculous to me but I'm sure there is a really good reason.
My two cents on this other topic...
Some of our conflicts and disagreements are well earned. But others are often at least substantially a function of semantics, misinterpretation of questions and answers, and conflation of what sometimes are different questions.
Saint and I often are not exactly on the same page but here I saw no disrespect intended for Messiah...even though I understood the reaction. Imo the "is some good fortune" and sometimes "bad fortune" a factor in tournaments is pretty indisputable. That doesn't mean Saint doesn't believe Messiah has been a very worthy champion or that Messiah isn't the gold standard (sorry for the double and triple negatives). I found that interaction somewhat ironic because there are few posters here who give more of a nod to tradition and the significance of "stars on your jersey" than Saint. I mean, like sometimes I don't care who were the great programs in the mid to late 90s especially when that becomes an argument for current superiority. And Messiah has had its share of bad luck as well...this year and other years when they got knocked out by very inferior opponents in PKs or otherwise. Tufts had good fortune and at least a couple of times extremely good fortune. Calvin has had good fortune and bad...and so on and so on.
In terms of the conflation, it's like asking who has been the most dominant program since 2014....to me, that's easy...it's Tufts. But if you asked me who is still the gold standard I'm gonna say Messiah. Two different questions.
For the record (what record?), I agree with the main crux of that PN... I think another aspect to acknowledge is that some people get REALLY offended when you ascribe "luck" to the success of a team (or even a person or business). And I'm not even criticizing that reaction, because I understand that to SOME people, you are devaluing the success by saying factors other than the superiority of the team lead to that success. That is absolutely an approach that people use to undercut success. "Oh, you just got lucky."
But I read Saint's post as you did... It's pretty rare that an entire run to the F4 and a championship don't involve any number of factors that are simply out of the team's control. Let's just call it randomness instead of luck.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 15, 2022, 10:07:29 AM
For the record (what record?), I agree with the main crux of that PN... I think another aspect to acknowledge is that some people get REALLY offended when you ascribe "luck" to the success of a team (or even a person or business). And I'm not even criticizing that reaction, because I understand that to SOME people, you are devaluing the success by saying factors other than the superiority of the team lead to that success. That is absolutely an approach that people use to undercut success. "Oh, you just got lucky."
But I read Saint's post as you did... It's pretty rare that an entire run to the F4 and a championship don't involve any number of factors that are simply out of the team's control. Let's just call it randomness instead of luck.
Agreed. I could write a 5 page post explaining in excruciating detail (excruciating for me and the reader) about how the turn of a few plays here and there, a slightly different draw, a home field preventing hosting because it's invested with some rare bacteria, and a butterfly flapping its wings in Mongolia would have resulted in Kenyon having a couple of titles or at minimum a couple of Final 4 appearances.
No doubt - Lady Luck is super important to get through 6 (or at least 5) competitive games to win the whole thing. Look no further than 01 champion Conn College who needed 2 PK shootouts, another OT victory and 2 one goal victories (1 in the 89th minute) among their 6 wins en route to a national championship.
Even the Tufts 2019 Championship run, one of of the most dominant in recent memories (18-4 goals against in 6 games and 6-0 GA in Final 4), included an OT victory and a 89th minute game winner.
Quote from: coach analytics on November 15, 2022, 10:38:17 AM
No doubt - Lady Luck is super important to get through 6 (or at least 5) competitive games to win the whole thing. Look no further than 01 champion Conn College who needed 2 PK shootouts, another OT victory and 2 one goal victories (1 in the 89th minute) among their 6 wins en route to a national championship.
Even the Tufts 2019 Championship run, one of of the most dominant in recent memories (18-4 goals against in 6 games and 6-0 GA in Final 4), included an OT victory and a 89th minute game winner.
I'm not going to go back and do this, but it would be interesting to see what runs DIDN'T require an OT, PK or late one goal winner to win a championship in the last 20 years or so. Which is to say nothing about teams that needed a good deal of fortune/randomness to break their way just to get into the tournament and make a run in the first place.
OK, OK, OK, I'll give one example...
2014 Kenyon was ranked #2 most of the year (behind Messiah) and went into tournament #2. They had just finally, finally overcome OWU in the NCAC tourney final in OT (after drawing in regular season). The one team you don't want to play two weeks later even on your home field is your biggest, bad blood rival that you just beat in a big spot for the first time in years...and as we learned shortly before the game from a D3soccer.com guru and lead OWU advocate via an early preview reveal of the golden nugget in his to-be-published sectional review, OWU had not lost to the same team twice in the same season in 67 years (OK, 40 years). I was hysterical and no doubt very distorted, and despite multiple efforts to later mend the fences, the OWU alum who was a great player and I never recovered.
Just to get to that game, OWU had to hold off PS-Behrend in the 1st round in OT on a 94th minute goal by Taylor Rieger (also point guard for OWU bball team). Then in the 2nd round OWU got 4th ranked Calvin. Any of the following events could have turned the outcome. First, Calvin had to move the game from their home field to Hope's home field because of weather. Calvin went up 1-0 and held that lead to the 81st minute when OWU drew what seemed like an iffy PK call which AA Colton Bloecher buried. Game goes to OT. Late in OT1 Calvin legend Travis Vegter (older brother to Calvin legend Trent Vegter) hits the crossbar. In the 2nd OT Calvin hits another crossbar. Of course OWU goes on to prevail in PKs, setting up the rematch with Kenyon. Clearly no guarantee Kenyon would have beaten Calvin but the psychology of the OWU game was all in OWU's favor. Throw in an ice storm where the OWU bus slid off the road and Jay Martin driving separately helped some people who had an accident. Game got delayed by a full day because of the ice on the roads and the Lords had another day to get even more anxious about playing OWU again. There was also the "bad luck" of Kenyon's 1st team AA CB playing on one leg due to a pretty severe hamstring injury. No guarantee Kenyon would have beaten CNU in the Elite 8 or Tufts in the national semis, but I absolutely believe the Lords would have been more competitive with Tufts that year than OWU (btw, a game where our resident Tufts guru D4 as a Jumbo freshman scored the first goal from his right back position).
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 15, 2022, 10:01:39 AM
My two cents on this other topic...
Some of our conflicts and disagreements are well earned. But others are often at least substantially a function of semantics, misinterpretation of questions and answers, and conflation of what sometimes are different questions.
Saint and I often are not exactly on the same page but here I saw no disrespect intended for Messiah...even though I understood the reaction. Imo the "is some good fortune" and sometimes "bad fortune" a factor in tournaments is pretty indisputable. That doesn't mean Saint doesn't believe Messiah has been a very worthy champion or that Messiah isn't the gold standard (sorry for the double and triple negatives). I found that interaction somewhat ironic because there are few posters here who give more of a nod to tradition and the significance of "stars on your jersey" than Saint. I mean, like sometimes I don't care who were the great programs in the mid to late 90s especially when that becomes an argument for current superiority. And Messiah has had its share of bad luck as well...this year and other years when they got knocked out by very inferior opponents in PKs or otherwise. Tufts had good fortune and at least a couple of times extremely good fortune. Calvin has had good fortune and bad...and so on and so on.
In terms of the conflation, it's like asking who has been the most dominant program since 2014....to me, that's easy...it's Tufts. But if you asked me who is still the gold standard I'm gonna say Messiah. Two different questions.
I think this is one of those instances where everyone is right. No matter the quality of the team, it absolutely takes some luck to make it all the way through the tournament to a championship. That said, Messiah's record speaks for itself. You don't win 11 national championships without being a sustainably superior team.
As a New England sports fan, I'll refer to the Patriots in their last nine Super Bowl appearances. They are rightfully considered to be dynasty, and won six...and most of those were by 4 points or less...and some were decided on one of the last plays of the game. They lost three...two by 3 points each to the New York Giants...and the Giants victories came down to one or two fluke plays.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 15, 2022, 11:16:42 AM
There was also the "bad luck" of Kenyon's 1st team AA CB playing on one leg due to a pretty severe hamstring injury.
Yes, I'm being very picky... Curious what he actually did to be able to play. If you've ever tweaked your hamstring or your groin. It's like walking on borrowed time until it "snaps." And once you've pulled or strained either one, they kind of never truly go away.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 15, 2022, 11:38:16 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 15, 2022, 11:16:42 AM
There was also the "bad luck" of Kenyon's 1st team AA CB playing on one leg due to a pretty severe hamstring injury.
Yes, I'm being very picky... Curious what he actually did to be able to play. If you've ever tweaked your hamstring or your groin. It's like walking on borrowed time until it "snaps." And once you've pulled or strained either one, they kind of never truly go away.
So true. No excuses but Messiah's back up target had a pulled hamstring and was unable to play. He could barely run and cut.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 15, 2022, 11:38:16 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 15, 2022, 11:16:42 AM
There was also the "bad luck" of Kenyon's 1st team AA CB playing on one leg due to a pretty severe hamstring injury.
Yes, I'm being very picky... Curious what he actually did to be able to play. If you've ever tweaked your hamstring or your groin. It's like walking on borrowed time until it "snaps." And once you've pulled or strained either one, they kind of never truly go away.
Name is Sam Justice. One of the all-time Kenyon greats. He was very much in the running for D3soccer.com Defender of the Year, I think the same year Kenyon GK Sam Clougher won GK of the year. Sam also was summa cum laude and a NCAA Postgraduate scholar who went on to get a Ph.D. in statistics at Univ of Iowa and now is in Boston working at Mass General Brigham where my son is a 3rd year resident.
From what I recall, Sam suffered the injury in the NCAC final with OWU probably chasing Colton Bloecher. He tried to play the first game of the first weekend but had to come out about 20 minutes in and did not play in the second game. He knew the team needed him to beat OWU and he did whatever treatment you can do for those types of injuries, but he really couldn't play and he did not play the 2nd half because he was just so obviously hobbled. He, my kid, and a bunch of others sobbing after the game. Probably my most traumatic experience as a sports parent and a big reason why I still can't fully shake the curse of the Battling Bishops lol.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 14, 2022, 01:24:01 PM
Quote from: nescac1 on November 14, 2022, 12:39:31 PM
I'm laughing Saint_Dad, because you've summed up about a decade worth of complaints (and both sides of the debate) about Amherst's soccer program, if you scroll through the archives of the NESCAC board. On the one hand, the coach's personality, the rough / ugly style of play, and the field all receive, to put it mildly, very little love throughout NESCAC (and broader D3 circles, when they are exposed). But on the other, Amherst wins big and does so consistently, brings in great players consistently, and the players seem (unlike the rest of the league) to enjoy playing for him. Part of it can be attributed to the fact that it's never fun to lose consistently to any team, but on the other hand, Williams, Midd, Conn and especially Tufts have all had championship eras lead by HOF-caliber coaches over the past 30 years, and there was never the same sort of animosity directed towards any of those programs. In short, it works for Amherst, but doesn't make a lot of friends outside of Amherst.
Yes, the complaints about Amherst have been detailed and entirely consistent from a range of sources for well over 10+ years. You can't ask people to un-see and un-hear what they see and hear, often numerous times over. And the Amherst program and its fans will concede nothing. In that sense they are impenetrable and nearly cultish.
Saint-Dad, you're right, SLU could not have had a more disastrous start. And then even with a one goal right away within the first five minutes the Amherst players, bench, and especially the coach were throwing tantrums on almost every foul call. They tried to rough up everybody but especially Sibanda. So then you're in a bind about how to defend yourself, how to combat what's happening, and then you unwittingly try to match them and get out of your own game. ten Cate is a histrionic thespian...on literally almost every single call...one minute taking someone out and another minute writhing on the ground in agony. And then even #8 and some others were mock-clapping Sibanda. Just insufferable behavior and very painful to watch. It's a bit like Messiah in a different kind of way....insofar as you get get so focused on the opponent and how difficult it is play them that you're almost immediately not playing your own game.
And then afterwards, Serpone sounds like a perfectly reasonable and even generous and gracious man, praising the opponent, praising SLU coach, praising Sibanda, praising how well SLU held the ball, etc. You can see what recruits and parents would be infatuated. And the same with the players. The contrast is remarkable, stunning, and confusing...making you almost question if what you saw is what you saw. And I've seen Serpone do this after a loss as well. If you get a chance click on the video on the front of the Amherst soccer website.
You SLU folks should feel proud. At 3-0 I thought there was zero chance SLU was going to stay in the game, but they did. Showed a lot of character and eventually a very skilled, attractive style.
Now one thing I don't understand is why the Amherst bench doesn't get more yellows. I saw a lot of teams getting coach and bench yellows for far less. Maybe they do and I I've missed it but one wonders if the refs adjust ot Amherst as well....like ref fatigue where they say we're not going to call fouls past 25....or at a minimum the bar moves and what is considered egregious moves.
First post for me here on the board. Possibly a controversial one. Having been at the Amherst-SLU game I'm happy I wasn't the only one who was embarrassed for the behavior of the Amherst squad. Late, dirty fouls were clearly emphasized by the coaching staff as a tactic before the game, and the words coming from the Amherst bench were almost comical. One tackle went in on Saints winger #7 when he was on the floor, borderline red card offence, and the Amherst assistant is saying the game has gone soft. Players on the Amherst bench wearing hard hats is pretty pathetic in my view. Coach Serpone prides himself on creating leaders yet to an outside viewer it felt as though the team were a bunch of sheep. All just repeating and following generic orders from coach, clearly those players have been stripped of the ability to think for themselves. How can you say a program is full of leaders who go in late on tackles, wear hard hats on the sideline and yell instructions that they clearly don't even understand. I'll give respect to the team for clearly being devoted to winning, but even after the game, the insincerity of the players was again just a bad look. Actions speak louder than words, even though Serpone was full of praise after the game, would've been nice to know what he truly thinks of his own players intentionally going in studs up.
I agree with everything you are saying about Amherst.
I have coached kids/young men my whole life and I believe we as coaches have an obligation to not only teach the game but also life lessons and create leaders. I think what is happening at Amherst is borderline unethical. Trying to win at all costs....bad player behavior, bad coachigng behavior, tons of fouls, lousy field... Not a great example from such a great institution.
Quote from: saint_forever on November 15, 2022, 12:15:46 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 14, 2022, 01:24:01 PM
Quote from: nescac1 on November 14, 2022, 12:39:31 PM
I'm laughing Saint_Dad, because you've summed up about a decade worth of complaints (and both sides of the debate) about Amherst's soccer program, if you scroll through the archives of the NESCAC board. On the one hand, the coach's personality, the rough / ugly style of play, and the field all receive, to put it mildly, very little love throughout NESCAC (and broader D3 circles, when they are exposed). But on the other, Amherst wins big and does so consistently, brings in great players consistently, and the players seem (unlike the rest of the league) to enjoy playing for him. Part of it can be attributed to the fact that it's never fun to lose consistently to any team, but on the other hand, Williams, Midd, Conn and especially Tufts have all had championship eras lead by HOF-caliber coaches over the past 30 years, and there was never the same sort of animosity directed towards any of those programs. In short, it works for Amherst, but doesn't make a lot of friends outside of Amherst.
Yes, the complaints about Amherst have been detailed and entirely consistent from a range of sources for well over 10+ years. You can't ask people to un-see and un-hear what they see and hear, often numerous times over. And the Amherst program and its fans will concede nothing. In that sense they are impenetrable and nearly cultish.
Saint-Dad, you're right, SLU could not have had a more disastrous start. And then even with a one goal right away within the first five minutes the Amherst players, bench, and especially the coach were throwing tantrums on almost every foul call. They tried to rough up everybody but especially Sibanda. So then you're in a bind about how to defend yourself, how to combat what's happening, and then you unwittingly try to match them and get out of your own game. ten Cate is a histrionic thespian...on literally almost every single call...one minute taking someone out and another minute writhing on the ground in agony. And then even #8 and some others were mock-clapping Sibanda. Just insufferable behavior and very painful to watch. It's a bit like Messiah in a different kind of way....insofar as you get get so focused on the opponent and how difficult it is play them that you're almost immediately not playing your own game.
And then afterwards, Serpone sounds like a perfectly reasonable and even generous and gracious man, praising the opponent, praising SLU coach, praising Sibanda, praising how well SLU held the ball, etc. You can see what recruits and parents would be infatuated. And the same with the players. The contrast is remarkable, stunning, and confusing...making you almost question if what you saw is what you saw. And I've seen Serpone do this after a loss as well. If you get a chance click on the video on the front of the Amherst soccer website.
You SLU folks should feel proud. At 3-0 I thought there was zero chance SLU was going to stay in the game, but they did. Showed a lot of character and eventually a very skilled, attractive style.
Now one thing I don't understand is why the Amherst bench doesn't get more yellows. I saw a lot of teams getting coach and bench yellows for far less. Maybe they do and I I've missed it but one wonders if the refs adjust ot Amherst as well....like ref fatigue where they say we're not going to call fouls past 25....or at a minimum the bar moves and what is considered egregious moves.
First post for me here on the board. Possibly a controversial one. Having been at the Amherst-SLU game I'm happy I wasn't the only one who was embarrassed for the behavior of the Amherst squad. Late, dirty fouls were clearly emphasized by the coaching staff as a tactic before the game, and the words coming from the Amherst bench were almost comical. One tackle went in on Saints winger #7 when he was on the floor, borderline red card offence, and the Amherst assistant is saying the game has gone soft. Players on the Amherst bench wearing hard hats is pretty pathetic in my view. Coach Serpone prides himself on creating leaders yet to an outside viewer it felt as though the team were a bunch of sheep. All just repeating and following generic orders from coach, clearly those players have been stripped of the ability to think for themselves. How can you say a program is full of leaders who go in late on tackles, wear hard hats on the sideline and yell instructions that they clearly don't even understand. I'll give respect to the team for clearly being devoted to winning, but even after the game, the insincerity of the players was again just a bad look. Actions speak louder than words, even though Serpone was full of praise after the game, would've been nice to know what he truly thinks of his own players intentionally going in studs up.
I have no doubt that was Derek Shea, as I've heard him say the same things almost verbatim in past games. I noticed him throwing fits and gesticulating wildly the entire game, which again is nothing new as he's done that for a decade now. Guy's in his mid to late 50s and acts worse than a child who doesn't know any better. Contrast that to the behavior of the Messiah coaching staff and players in their game against Williams. Yea yea "sour grapes" and all that which is fair, but I mentioned after the game Amherst played a great game and has a tremendous amount of talent top to bottom which is a testament to the quality of Amherst's program.
I started a thread to discuss Amherst and any other school that isn't on topic with the National Tournament.....
SC.
Curious as to thoughts on the NCAA OT policy as it relates to the 22-23 season. As we all know the NCAA eliminated OT in regular season therefore resulting in a significant numbers of tied matches. Secondly (I may be wrong about this) but dropping sudden victory and having two full OT periods seems to have resulted in too many matches that went to PKs which I'm sure many agree is not the best way to end a match. I believe there were 5 matches determined by PKs in 21-22 and so far after two rounds we have already seen 10 this year in tournament.
Hey Coach, welcome.
This thread has kind of devolved from its original purpose, which was prognosticating and then commenting on the games in the tournament.
There was a thread mid-season that pretty deep into the OT rules, which might be a good place to pick that conversation back up now that we're in the tourney. I'll see if I can find it.
Here we go: http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=9342.0
I will bump it... I think it's interesting now that we're actually in the tourney to see what people think.
Back to the tournament.... Wanted to take a look at goals for and goals against through two rounds for the remaining 16 teams. Let me start by saying obviously every teams strength of opponents differs to some extent so far, but in general this will provide a snap shot of which teams are winning with offense, defense, or both:
Chicago (6gf-2ga) vs St Thomas (4gf-1ga)
Gust Adolphus (3-1) vs St Olaf (10-2)
Stevens (4-2) vs Cortland (8-5)
Catholic (4-0) vs Hopkins (6-0)
Williams (2-1) vs Ohio Northern (1-1)
W&L (10-3) vs Kenyon (10-1)
Amherst (6-2) vs UMW (2-0)
Oneonta (7-0) vs Bowdoin (4-2)
Based on this, a couple observations/ comments:
- Impressive that 3 of the remaining 16 teams score 10 goals over the past weekend
- wonder whether GA defense or St Olafs offense will prevail
- Catholic vs Hopkins both strong defensively, will be interesting to see which one cracks
- Williams vs Ohio Northern is the battle of defenses and W&L vs Kenyon is the battle of offense (and defense), those matches fascinate me.
- I don't think UMW stands much of a chance vs Amherst but if they do I see them "getting lucky" in penalties as the only way they win.
Nice, thanks LotL for this.
Cortland has had a wild first two games!
Crazy that Williams came into the tournament with 6 wins and knocked off Messiah at their field. All season Messiah was praised for being miles above every other team in the country and couldn't score in 110 minutes of soccer. I'd bet Williams beat Ohio Northern to advance to the Elite 8 where I predict their run to come to an end versus either W&L or Kenyon
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 14, 2022, 10:38:29 PM
Quote from: FBALLISLIFE on November 14, 2022, 10:22:28 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 14, 2022, 04:36:56 PM
Kenyon appears to be the only host not playing the early game. I wonder if this was by choice or if there is some arcane rule whereby playing early went to Williams because they took the spot of the #1 seed in the quad.
PN — I was wondering this as well, and I think it is simply because the games are played top to bottom in the bracket. I was going to try to find some old brackets to confirm, but that's the best I can tell.
Interesting. I've always been under the impression that the host or at least top seed left gets to pick and that they almost always picked the earlier game to have a few hours of more rest....but, that said, 11:00 am is early and maybe too early for some.
Sorry for the late response. But the host team gets to pick which slot they play. We also chose to play early and get the extra two hours of rest but I'm sure the Kenyon staff has their own logic. Reality is it doesn't really make much of a difference either way.
If I were in charge I think I would learn towards playing the later game because that's more in line with their normal game day schedule and routine. Worry about winning today and then sort out tomorrow was my tournament mentality.
Quote from: NESCACfan100 on November 15, 2022, 07:12:49 PM
Crazy that Williams came into the tournament with 6 wins and knocked off Messiah at their field. All season Messiah was praised for being miles above every other team in the country and couldn't score in 110 minutes of soccer. I'd bet Williams beat Ohio Northern to advance to the Elite 8 where I predict their run to come to an end versus either W&L or Kenyon
"All season Messiah was praised for being miles above every other team in the country..." - That's simply not accurate at all.
SEC = NESCAC
Personified.
Sorry, not sorry.
Not quite understanding the responses to my post. Messiah was #1 for most of the year and from what I read, lots of people on here said they were the top dogs along with Chicago for most of the season. I am just noting how it is "crazy" how 6-win Williams knocked them out at their own field.
I won't comment on Messiah being lucky but Tufts certainly had tons of elements of luck in our wins. I say this each year but I think there are about 5 teams that can win a title with minimal luck, that can handle injuries and adversity and still win it all. Then there are about 10-15 additional teams that with luck and everything going there way could win in a given year. Some of the Tufts teams fell in the former category and others in the latter.
Quote from: NESCACfan100 on November 15, 2022, 07:12:49 PM
Crazy that Williams came into the tournament with 6 wins and knocked off Messiah at their field. All season Messiah was praised for being miles above every other team in the country and couldn't score in 110 minutes of soccer. I'd bet Williams beat Ohio Northern to advance to the Elite 8 where I predict their run to come to an end versus either W&L or Kenyon
Crazy indeed. I've said all season that Messiah and Chicago are the two best teams. And I still think they are miles above every other team in the country. Losing to Williams doesn't change that fact. And yes, they couldn't score in 110 minutes... for the first time this season.
SC.
Quote from: NESCACfan100 on November 15, 2022, 07:38:06 PM
Not quite understanding the responses to my post. Messiah was #1 for most of the year and from what I read, lots of people on here said they were the top dogs along with Chicago for most of the season. I am just noting how it is "crazy" how 6-win Williams knocked them out at their own field.
Ok, that's sounding more accurate. You left off the Chicago part in your first post...Totally agree re: Williams.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 15, 2022, 07:26:27 PM
Geez Louise dude. Ok.
This board has been wide open and full of wide ranging discussion all year. If you spent time watching them, they are one of the better D3 squads you'll get to see live.
Sorry if that offends. Geez.
Who/what is this in response to?
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 15, 2022, 07:33:49 PM
SEC = NESCAC
Personified.
Sorry, not sorry.
Less sweet tea, better portfolios.
Been quiet on the boards so far this season. LET'S GO DUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That is all 8-)
Quote from: NESCACfan100 on November 15, 2022, 07:38:06 PM
Not quite understanding the responses to my post. Messiah was #1 for most of the year and from what I read, lots of people on here said they were the top dogs along with Chicago for most of the season. I am just noting how it is "crazy" how 6-win Williams knocked them out at their own field.
Yeah, you're good... Sorry for the over the top response... Was getting into it with someone else on a completely unrelated board/topic and came in here hot.
Carry on and, again, apologies.
Gustie fans, is it just me or is the GAC men's soccer website difficult to navigate? In trying to gather some info on GAC to report on I literally could not find links to the roster, the coach, the schedule, stats, etc. I found some info by other means but could not access anything directly via the webpage.
I was on there a few weeks ago and was confused as well, but I figured it out. The left side of the webpage has a tab titled "Section." Click that and a list will pop up for everything you mentioned.
Today and tomorrow I'm gonna try to post some info I gathered for the sectionals for the latest SC production from the Sundance Kid studio that didn't make the show due to time constraints (and Nielsen data on viewer attention spans), along with a bit of very, very amateur analysis.
Here's a couple of sneak-preview snippets (some that made the show and some that landed crumpled up on the editing floor....
Conference performances....Only two conferences remain unblemished with multiple entries...the SUNYAC (2 for 2 and now the question about Brockport perhaps looms even larger) and the MIAC (2 for 2...and unfortunately now pitted against each other for the rubber match). And unblemished with just one entry are the SCAC and MACF. The NESCAC comes in at 3 out of 5 left while the UAA limps in with 1 out of 4. Those sporting 1 out of 2 are the Landmark, OAC, ODAC, and NCAC. The C2C is now 1 out of 3. And Centennial is 1 out of 3.
An impressive 12 conferences are represented in the Sweet 16.
Remaining unbeatens....Chicago and Stevens.
One loss teams....St Thomas, Gustavus Adolphus, Johns Hopkins, Kenyon, Amherst, Bowdoin.......and..............Williams.
Two loss teams....Oneonta State and W&L.
Teams now out that in PN's opinion had legitimate to excellent chances to reach Final 4 and win title...in descending order (best chances to least, based partly on draws)....Messiah, Middlebury, Calvin, North Park...
Quote from: oacalum on November 16, 2022, 10:30:16 AM
I was on there a few weeks ago and was confused as well, but I figured it out. The left side of the webpage has a tab titled "Section." Click that and a list will pop up for everything you mentioned.
Wow, thanks. I don't know how many times I kind of scrolled over that button but I guess I never clicked on it after clicking on literally everything else I saw. Oh well, the GAC field still looks great!
Centennial is one of three. All three won their first game, so... overall 5-2 record this year. Well, however you want to account for PK wins/losses...
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 16, 2022, 10:20:51 AM
Gustie fans, is it just me or is the GAC men's soccer website difficult to navigate? In trying to gather some info on GAC to report on I literally could not find links to the roster, the coach, the schedule, stats, etc. I found some info by other means but could not access anything directly via the webpage.
Agreed. It's all hiding under the "Section" tab on the left, that you have to pop out... Not very intuitive. And the mobile experience is worse.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 16, 2022, 10:57:30 AM
Today and tomorrow I'm gonna try to post some info I gathered for the sectionals for the latest SC production from the Sundance Kid studio that didn't make the show due to time constraints (and Nielsen data on viewer attention spans), along with a bit of very, very amateur analysis.
Here's a couple of sneak-preview snippets (some that made the show and some that landed crumpled up on the editing floor....
Conference performances....Only two conferences remain unblemished with multiple entries...the SUNYAC (2 for 2 and now the question about Brockport perhaps looms even larger) and the MIAC (2 for 2...and unfortunately now pitted against each other for the rubber match). And unblemished with just one entry are the SCAC and MACF. The NESCAC comes in at 3 out of 5 left while the UAA limps in with 1 out of 4. Those sporting 1 out of 2 are the Landmark, OAC, ODAC, and NCAC. The C2C is now 1 out of 3.
An impressive 12 conferences are represented in the Sweet 16.
Remaining unbeatens....Chicago and Stevens.
One loss teams....St Thomas, Gustavus Adolphus, Johns Hopkins, Kenyon, Amherst, Bowdoin.......and..............Williams.
Two loss teams....Oneonta State and W&L.
Teams now out that in PN's opinion had legitimate to excellent chances to reach Final 4 and win title...in descending order (best chances to least, based partly on draws)....Messiah, Middlebury, Calvin, North Park...
Speaking of.... here is the latest episode of The New Show.... The New Show - The Yule Log Edition (https://youtu.be/024C9gY1_wU)
Quote from: SimpleCoach on November 16, 2022, 12:53:09 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 16, 2022, 10:57:30 AM
Today and tomorrow I'm gonna try to post some info I gathered for the sectionals for the latest SC production from the Sundance Kid studio that didn't make the show due to time constraints (and Nielsen data on viewer attention spans), along with a bit of very, very amateur analysis.
Here's a couple of sneak-preview snippets (some that made the show and some that landed crumpled up on the editing floor....
Conference performances....Only two conferences remain unblemished with multiple entries...the SUNYAC (2 for 2 and now the question about Brockport perhaps looms even larger) and the MIAC (2 for 2...and unfortunately now pitted against each other for the rubber match). And unblemished with just one entry are the SCAC and MACF. The NESCAC comes in at 3 out of 5 left while the UAA limps in with 1 out of 4. Those sporting 1 out of 2 are the Landmark, OAC, ODAC, and NCAC. The C2C is now 1 out of 3.
An impressive 12 conferences are represented in the Sweet 16.
Remaining unbeatens....Chicago and Stevens.
One loss teams....St Thomas, Gustavus Adolphus, Johns Hopkins, Kenyon, Amherst, Bowdoin.......and..............Williams.
Two loss teams....Oneonta State and W&L.
Teams now out that in PN's opinion had legitimate to excellent chances to reach Final 4 and win title...in descending order (best chances to least, based partly on draws)....Messiah, Middlebury, Calvin, North Park...
Speaking of.... here is the latest episode of The New Show.... The New Show - The Yule Log Edition (https://youtu.be/024C9gY1_wU)
Nicely done, gents. That was enjoyable...and the two of you are knowledgeable and have a great repartee. Thanks for your good work.
Good catch, Hop92. Had that in my notes and somehow skipped Centennial.
And thank you, northman! Good luck to Bowdoin. As I said, can definitely see Bowdoin or Oneonta getting by Amherst.
Rooting for St Olaf over GAC. From UWEC playing both, I liked St Olaf's game better. Plus GAC had 22 fouls in the last game. Already preparing for Amherst maybe? :)
Quote from: SimpleCoach on November 16, 2022, 12:53:09 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 16, 2022, 10:57:30 AM
Today and tomorrow I'm gonna try to post some info I gathered for the sectionals for the latest SC production from the Sundance Kid studio that didn't make the show due to time constraints (and Nielsen data on viewer attention spans), along with a bit of very, very amateur analysis.
Here's a couple of sneak-preview snippets (some that made the show and some that landed crumpled up on the editing floor....
Conference performances....Only two conferences remain unblemished with multiple entries...the SUNYAC (2 for 2 and now the question about Brockport perhaps looms even larger) and the MIAC (2 for 2...and unfortunately now pitted against each other for the rubber match). And unblemished with just one entry are the SCAC and MACF. The NESCAC comes in at 3 out of 5 left while the UAA limps in with 1 out of 4. Those sporting 1 out of 2 are the Landmark, OAC, ODAC, and NCAC. The C2C is now 1 out of 3.
An impressive 12 conferences are represented in the Sweet 16.
Remaining unbeatens....Chicago and Stevens.
One loss teams....St Thomas, Gustavus Adolphus, Johns Hopkins, Kenyon, Amherst, Bowdoin.......and..............Williams.
Two loss teams....Oneonta State and W&L.
Teams now out that in PN's opinion had legitimate to excellent chances to reach Final 4 and win title...in descending order (best chances to least, based partly on draws)....Messiah, Middlebury, Calvin, North Park...
Speaking of.... here is the latest episode of The New Show.... The New Show - The Yule Log Edition (https://youtu.be/024C9gY1_wU)
Darn it. Had a post gobbled up... Didn't want to spam your comments section:
* - Expanding on the Messiah point... Really good insight, SC, on Williams marking out Groothoff. But, beyond that, in the patches of the game I caught, Messiah just didn't look themselves, in particular they were turning the ball over at an alarming rate (for them.) And these were balls on the ground, so the much discussed wind was not to blame. Again, maybe marking out one of the best players in the country threw them off, but they have so much talent all over the field, they should've been able to overcome that. Credit to Williams, again, for not being intimidated and playing their game.
* - One of the things we love about the tournament is seeing teams that are unfamiliar with each other match-up and go at it. I say this in the context of the struggle Hopkins had with Muhlenberg versus JCU. A lot of the Centennial teams play Hopkins in a low- or mid-block, with some variation of a nuisance pressure up top, but mostly absorbing pressure and counter-attacking. JCU did something unique, which was man-marking up top through the midfield. You could see the first 10 minutes, Hopkins looked very shaky. Hopkins adjusted (credit to Coach A!!) and the rest is history.
* - Oh, we wrote about the late Stevens goal in real-time on this thread:
Quote from: StevensPBP05-10 on November 13, 2022, 04:51:26 PM
Mega controversy in Hoboken. Stevens shot from near the top of the box rolled on the deck all the way through, hit the left post and rolled across the entire face of the goal line off the right post.
It was smothered by Rowan's keeper but the refs awarded it a goal.
No way to tell from the online feed angle, but it's now 1-1 with 6' to play.
I said something very similar. I would also note that the Rowan players and their coach went ballistic, but the camera didn't really capture it that well.
* - Finally, I hadn't listened to the show yet, PN... You mentioned the Centennial on there, as you know. :-)
Yes, Hop, but I had to check to make sure I included Centennial!
On the other issue, JHU and JCU were familiar with each other to some degree. I don't care what tactics Muhlenberg uses....Hopkins is too good to not take care of the Mules. But none of that matters now. A path to the Final 4 is in clear sight for your Blue Jays.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 16, 2022, 02:32:14 PM
Yes, Hop, but I had to check to make sure I included Centennial!
On the other issue, JHU and JCU were familiar with each other to some degree. I don't care what tactics Muhlenberg uses....Hopkins is too good to not take care of the Mules. But none of that matters now. A path to the Final 4 is in clear sight for your Blue Jays.
Playing a game in a snow bowl didn't exactly allow either team to play a normal game. The game played last year and last weekend had zero resemblance to each other. A possession team in any kind of weather is asking for trouble.
Don't really disagree with you, Hopkins struggled with a number of teams they should've handled in their conference. I just think these guys know each other so well, it's a lot tougher to break them down when they know what's coming.
By the way, PN... Since the message notification interface on this site is a little too subtle... Sent you and SC a message earlier.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 16, 2022, 03:05:02 PM
By the way, PN... Since the message notification interface on this site is a little too subtle... Sent you and SC a message earlier.
Got it, thanks. And I get the snow bowl thing but at a minimum JHU and JCU surely must have watched a lot of tape of each other before both games.
Weather....forecast for Gambier is 20s (and not high 20s), so I imagine even colder in Chicago. Haven't checked Hoboken or Amherst yet.
There's nothing all that crazy about Williams beating Messiah. That's not a knock on Messiah but a complement to Williams and all the NESCAC tournament quarter-finalists who would have given Messiah every bit that Williams did on Sunday. Games of Williams-Messiah competitiveness are played up and down the schedule every weekend in NESCAC. Williams was fortunate to have their opportunity and they made the most of it.
Quote from: College Soccer Observer on November 07, 2022, 02:38:47 PM
The only bracketing rule they have to follow is no intra conference matchups in first two rounds.
I know I'm circling in late on this ... but the rule is the first round - NOT the first TWO rounds. There are sports that would like to make it the first two rounds, but that rule hasn't been put in place by DIII at this point (it is complicated because in a sport like football where one game is played per weekend or others where maybe the first and second games are separated by several days, this would become a significant problem and cost overrun). One solution would be "opening weekend" but even that needs some work.
SC and others...below is the post by D4 from last week that I referenced in the show.
Quote from: d4_Pace on November 10, 2022, 08:07:14 PM
I tend to agree that the NESCAC is down compared to the past. I don't think any of the grand have the elite players that graduated last year. But I still NESCAC teams are best prepared for the style of play that take place during the tourney. If you offered me the field vs the NESCAC I think this year I would take the field. That being said if Williams were to beat Messiah 1-0 I would not be surprised at all.
Going back a few posts on this thread, but Messiah was by no means overrated if considered the co-favorite heading into the tournament. Williams had a good strategy and played well but the reality is that Messiah was an incredibly talented team front to back, tremendous ball control skills, the Ephs had to work very, very hard to dispossess them and Messiah often felt one pass away from having a great look on goal, whereas Messiah's back line felt nearly impenetrable. Some Williams teams from years past with similar attributes did not advance in those situations, and this year it was Messiah's turn, but man, Messiah losing in PKs after that performance should not make anyone think that Messiah was not legit. Sometimes, especially against a defensive-minded team like Williams, that last touch is just really hard to come by.
Quote from: nescac1 on November 17, 2022, 10:42:14 AM
Going back a few posts on this thread, but Messiah was by no means overrated if considered the co-favorite heading into the tournament. Williams had a good strategy and played well but the reality is that Messiah was an incredibly talented team front to back, tremendous ball control skills, the Ephs had to work very, very hard to dispossess them and Messiah often felt one pass away from having a great look on goal, whereas Messiah's back line felt nearly impenetrable. Some Williams teams from years past with similar attributes did not advance in those situations, and this year it was Messiah's turn, but man, Messiah losing in PKs after that performance should not make anyone think that Messiah was not legit. Sometimes, especially against a defensive-minded team like Williams, that last touch is just really hard to come by.
Like I said prior to the game, unbeaten teams at the knockout stage of a tournament are so vulnerable, tend not to be aware of their area of weakness.
Quote from: camosfan on November 17, 2022, 11:11:05 AM
Quote from: nescac1 on November 17, 2022, 10:42:14 AM
Going back a few posts on this thread, but Messiah was by no means overrated if considered the co-favorite heading into the tournament. Williams had a good strategy and played well but the reality is that Messiah was an incredibly talented team front to back, tremendous ball control skills, the Ephs had to work very, very hard to dispossess them and Messiah often felt one pass away from having a great look on goal, whereas Messiah's back line felt nearly impenetrable. Some Williams teams from years past with similar attributes did not advance in those situations, and this year it was Messiah's turn, but man, Messiah losing in PKs after that performance should not make anyone think that Messiah was not legit. Sometimes, especially against a defensive-minded team like Williams, that last touch is just really hard to come by.
Like I said prior to the game, unbeaten teams at the knockout stage of a tournament are so vulnerable, tend not to be aware of their area of weakness.
Shout out to Trinity and Messiah and all the other teams that have gone undefeated to win a Chip :)
really extraordinary achievement!
I didn't get a chance to catch the games this past weekend, but I'm wondering if anyone can share some highlight videos they may have come across. Would be much appreciated!
This will be Amherst's 12th straight sweet 16. With Messiah bowing out early this year, is that the longest current streak?
Amherst: https://youtu.be/WeLaTE2O0iA
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 17, 2022, 03:44:36 PM
Amherst: https://youtu.be/WeLaTE2O0iA
That's the only one I've seen because it was posted on another thread, which prompted me to point out their 12th straight sweet 16 :-)
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on November 17, 2022, 03:47:56 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 17, 2022, 03:44:36 PM
Amherst: https://youtu.be/WeLaTE2O0iA
That's the only one I've seen because it was posted on another thread, which prompted me to point out their 12th straight sweet 16 :-)
Yeah, scanning around and not finding others... Very few teams put together highlight packages.
https://www.stevensducks.tv/
You can go there and get the entire game On Demand... Pretty easy just to spot-watch to see the goals and the PKs.
Same deal here for Catholic-Chris Newport: https://www.cnusports.com/watch/?Archive=723&type=Archive
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 17, 2022, 03:51:56 PM
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on November 17, 2022, 03:47:56 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 17, 2022, 03:44:36 PM
Amherst: https://youtu.be/WeLaTE2O0iA
That's the only one I've seen because it was posted on another thread, which prompted me to point out their 12th straight sweet 16 :-)
Yeah, scanning around and not finding others... Very few teams put together highlight packages.
https://www.stevensducks.tv/
You can go there and get the entire game On Demand... Pretty easy just to spot-watch to see the goals and the PKs.
Same deal here for Catholic-Chris Newport: https://www.cnusports.com/watch/?Archive=723&type=Archive
And another brief highlight reel: https://athletics.bowdoin.edu/sports/msoc?path=msoc
@catholicu_cards on Instagram posted a couple videos from last weekend, mainly of goals and big saves by the keeper
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on November 17, 2022, 03:34:03 PM
This will be Amherst's 12th straight sweet 16. With Messiah bowing out early this year, is that the longest current streak?
That would have been the longest streak whether or not Messiah had bowed out early.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 17, 2022, 03:51:56 PM
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on November 17, 2022, 03:47:56 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 17, 2022, 03:44:36 PM
Amherst: https://youtu.be/WeLaTE2O0iA
That's the only one I've seen because it was posted on another thread, which prompted me to point out their 12th straight sweet 16 :-)
Yeah, scanning around and not finding others... Very few teams put together highlight packages.
https://www.stevensducks.tv/
You can go there and get the entire game On Demand... Pretty easy just to spot-watch to see the goals and the PKs.
Same deal here for Catholic-Chris Newport: https://www.cnusports.com/watch/?Archive=723&type=Archive
Thanks a bunch. Just watched the Stevens equalizer in slow motion about 5 times in a row and while I can't say with 100% certainty, that did NOT look like a goal to me.
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on November 17, 2022, 04:46:53 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 17, 2022, 03:51:56 PM
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on November 17, 2022, 03:47:56 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 17, 2022, 03:44:36 PM
Amherst: https://youtu.be/WeLaTE2O0iA
That's the only one I've seen because it was posted on another thread, which prompted me to point out their 12th straight sweet 16 :-)
Yeah, scanning around and not finding others... Very few teams put together highlight packages.
https://www.stevensducks.tv/
You can go there and get the entire game On Demand... Pretty easy just to spot-watch to see the goals and the PKs.
Same deal here for Catholic-Chris Newport: https://www.cnusports.com/watch/?Archive=723&type=Archive
Thanks a bunch. Just watched the Stevens equalizer in slow motion about 5 times in a row and while I can't say with 100% certainty, that did NOT look like a goal to me.
Samesies. Also the same opinion of the Mighty Ducks fan that posted about it in real-time, as well.
We talked about luck earlier in the week... Prime example.
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on November 17, 2022, 04:46:53 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 17, 2022, 03:51:56 PM
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on November 17, 2022, 03:47:56 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 17, 2022, 03:44:36 PM
Amherst: https://youtu.be/WeLaTE2O0iA
That's the only one I've seen because it was posted on another thread, which prompted me to point out their 12th straight sweet 16 :-)
Yeah, scanning around and not finding others... Very few teams put together highlight packages.
https://www.stevensducks.tv/
You can go there and get the entire game On Demand... Pretty easy just to spot-watch to see the goals and the PKs.
Same deal here for Catholic-Chris Newport: https://www.cnusports.com/watch/?Archive=723&type=Archive
Thanks a bunch. Just watched the Stevens equalizer in slow motion about 5 times in a row and while I can't say with 100% certainty, that did NOT look like a goal to me.
Agreed, definitely not especially on turf. Ball has to go all the way over the line. AR on the far side could see that to call it as well.
Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 17, 2022, 07:04:30 PM
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on November 17, 2022, 04:46:53 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 17, 2022, 03:51:56 PM
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on November 17, 2022, 03:47:56 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 17, 2022, 03:44:36 PM
Amherst: https://youtu.be/WeLaTE2O0iA
That's the only one I've seen because it was posted on another thread, which prompted me to point out their 12th straight sweet 16 :-)
Just because I haven't seen anyone suggest it was a goal, two observations. First off, the linesman was in the perfect spot to judge. Just making that observation because he was not out of position, not deferring to his wisdom on the call. Just giving him props for being where he was supposed to be.
Second, when the ball comes across, the wheel that helps move the goals, is right outside the near post. Am wondering if it doest hit the post then hit the tire to come back out. That's the only thing I can logically see happening that would explain how that ball came back out of the goal the way it did.
Yeah, scanning around and not finding others... Very few teams put together highlight packages.
https://www.stevensducks.tv/
You can go there and get the entire game On Demand... Pretty easy just to spot-watch to see the goals and the PKs.
Same deal here for Catholic-Chris Newport: https://www.cnusports.com/watch/?Archive=723&type=Archive
Thanks a bunch. Just watched the Stevens equalizer in slow motion about 5 times in a row and while I can't say with 100% certainty, that did NOT look like a goal to me.
Agreed, definitely not especially on turf. Ball has to go all the way over the line. AR on the far side could see that to call it as well.
First off, credit to the linesman who was where he was supposed to be. Whether he made the right call no idea.
Second, am wondering if it is possible that the ball cam across the goal mouth and hit the post and that tire that sits on the outside of the goal. Only reason I say that is because the angle at which the ball came back out seemed odd to me.
But outside of that, no idea.
SC.
Quote from: SimpleCoach on November 17, 2022, 07:24:22 PM
First off, credit to the linesman who was where he was supposed to be. Whether he made the right call no idea.
While the linesman was even with the last defender, he was still about 8 years off the end line. I don't think he's in a position to clearly see if the whole of the ball crossed the w hole of the line.
Yeah, but I think SC has a point... Kind of alluded to by those watching that night... The ball coming back out like that didn't really seem "natural." Anyhoo... Tis what it Tis.
Fun first post! I was on site for the Williams Messiah game and I think you all would be interested to know.....
Just prior to the Messiah group
Being pulled away for the interview post game....the Williams team and fans were surrounding coach Siebert and could be heard yelling "we F——ed them" we F—-ed them up" repeatedly.
Prior to the game as the Williams players entered the facility they also yelled similar statements "let's F—— them up" etc.
Some middle school children near me looked around like did we just hear what I think we heard? This wasn't just an in the huddle moment only heard by the team. This was heard by anyone within 100 yards of the field.
So between that and the 18 fouls Saturday and 17 Sunday...I was not impressed.
A huge credit to the Williams keeper for his play. He was tremendous. Many solid defensive efforts that were legit by the team.....but the cumulative foul count and disgusting language...lacked the sportsmanship that NCAA experience is supposed to have.
I love a good physical game...played shoulder to shoulder. When your strategy is to cut people down to break up the game...what has the game become? I think college soccer has gotten uglier over the years as more teams lean into fouling to foul and not a foul as a result of a genuine effort to win the ball in a tough honest 1v1 battle.
I hope whoever wins it all plays straight up!
Welcome to the board!
Quote from: GKForverr1 on November 18, 2022, 02:11:43 PM
Fun first post! I was on site for the Williams Messiah game and I think you all would be interested to know.....
Just prior to the Messiah group
Being pulled away for the interview post game....the Williams team and fans were surrounding coach Siebert and could be heard yelling "we F——ed them" we F—-ed them up" repeatedly.
Prior to the game as the Williams players entered the facility they also yelled similar statements "let's F—— them up" etc.
Some middle school children near me looked around like did we just hear what I think we heard? This wasn't just an in the huddle moment only heard by the team. This was heard by anyone within 100 yards of the field.
So between that and the 18 fouls Saturday and 17 Sunday...I was not impressed.
A huge credit to the Williams keeper for his play. He was tremendous. Many solid defensive efforts that were legit by the team.....but the cumulative foul count and disgusting language...lacked the sportsmanship that NCAA experience is supposed to have.
I love a good physical game...played shoulder to shoulder. When your strategy is to cut people down to break up the game...what has the game become? I think college soccer has gotten uglier over the years as more teams lean into fouling to foul and not a foul as a result of a genuine effort to win the ball in a tough honest 1v1 battle.
I hope whoever wins it all plays straight up!
There are many risks to playing good football man.
Ironically Williams has a reputation of playing the game the right way. They do have the benefit of playing in NESCAC which means they have the ability and experience to adjust their style due to having to do so during the regular conference season.
Messiah have always played good football and in NY humble opinion the right way. Watching my Saints play Amherst last week, I had similar feelings, but Amherst has a team of Ballers. They are technical and have good control despite being physical. Their patterns are not as sophisticated as SLU and I guess Messiah, but that means improvement is needed from teams who play football on the ground and a passing game.
I think it is frustrating to lose to a team that are not as pleasing on the eye as your team, but in tournaments like this/D1/WorldCup/ChampionsLeague... Teams have to find a way to win.
NESCAC deserves to be where they are, because they have atleast 6 teams who play differently in the conference (Tufts/Amherst/Williams etc) while the rest of the country sees a different type of football only at Tourney time.
I won't mention bad luck having to do anything with Messiah losing, since there are guys who will 2 foot tackle you on the boards if u raise that possibility.
Quote from: SimpleCoach on November 17, 2022, 07:24:22 PM
Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 17, 2022, 07:04:30 PM
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on November 17, 2022, 04:46:53 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 17, 2022, 03:51:56 PM
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on November 17, 2022, 03:47:56 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 17, 2022, 03:44:36 PM
Amherst: https://youtu.be/WeLaTE2O0iA
That's the only one I've seen because it was posted on another thread, which prompted me to point out their 12th straight sweet 16 :-)
Just because I haven't seen anyone suggest it was a goal, two observations. First off, the linesman was in the perfect spot to judge. Just making that observation because he was not out of position, not deferring to his wisdom on the call. Just giving him props for being where he was supposed to be.
Second, when the ball comes across, the wheel that helps move the goals, is right outside the near post. Am wondering if it doest hit the post then hit the tire to come back out. That's the only thing I can logically see happening that would explain how that ball came back out of the goal the way it did.
Yeah, scanning around and not finding others... Very few teams put together highlight packages.
https://www.stevensducks.tv/
You can go there and get the entire game On Demand... Pretty easy just to spot-watch to see the goals and the PKs.
Same deal here for Catholic-Chris Newport: https://www.cnusports.com/watch/?Archive=723&type=Archive
Thanks a bunch. Just watched the Stevens equalizer in slow motion about 5 times in a row and while I can't say with 100% certainty, that did NOT look like a goal to me.
Agreed, definitely not especially on turf. Ball has to go all the way over the line. AR on the far side could see that to call it as well.
First off, credit to the linesman who was where he was supposed to be. Whether he made the right call no idea.
Second, am wondering if it is possible that the ball cam across the goal mouth and hit the post and that tire that sits on the outside of the goal. Only reason I say that is because the angle at which the ball came back out seemed odd to me.
But outside of that, no idea.
SC.
Ok. Because this is sort of driving me nuts. I took this snapshot of the game film. I am wondering if the ball had a spin on the ball off the first post that went in then out?
Best shot from the angle where it looks like a goal... (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6zlH1IV-yASx3xyaq3P_yg/community?lb=UgkxOES5AaFRRkeRpWtwCbIgA-dhXylB67kr)
Would have put the picture on here, but honestly have no clue how to do that. I tried the whole [img] thing, but alas, I am still a Kodachrome sort of guy.
Sat 19 | Day
29°
35%
WSW 21 mph
Cloudy and becoming windy with snow showers in the morning. High 29F. Winds WSW at 20 to 30 mph. Chance of snow 40%. Winds could occasionally gust over 40 mph.
That's Chicago.
Gambier not a lot better with high topping out at 30 and 10-20 mph winds, and Sunday topping out around 25.
Amherst and Hoboken look downright balmy, sneaking into low 40s with minimal wind.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 18, 2022, 05:52:36 PM
Sat 19 | Day
29°
35%
WSW 21 mph
Cloudy and becoming windy with snow showers in the morning. High 29F. Winds WSW at 20 to 30 mph. Chance of snow 40%. Winds could occasionally gust over 40 mph.
That's Chicago.
Gambier not a lot better with high topping out at 30 and 10-20 mph winds, and Sunday topping out around 25.
Amherst and Hoboken look downright balmy, sneaking into low 40s with minimal wind.
My rule of thumb is that standing on a soccer sideline for two hours is always 10 degrees colder than the posted weather, unless you are in the sun. I thought Amherst would be cold, but looks like we got lucky!
Quote from: Yankeesoccerdad on November 18, 2022, 06:27:48 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 18, 2022, 05:52:36 PM
Sat 19 | Day
29°
35%
WSW 21 mph
Cloudy and becoming windy with snow showers in the morning. High 29F. Winds WSW at 20 to 30 mph. Chance of snow 40%. Winds could occasionally gust over 40 mph.
That's Chicago.
Gambier not a lot better with high topping out at 30 and 10-20 mph winds, and Sunday topping out around 25.
Amherst and Hoboken look downright balmy, sneaking into low 40s with minimal wind.
My rule of thumb is that standing on a soccer sideline for two hours is always 10 degrees colder than the posted weather, unless you are in the sun. I thought Amherst would be cold, but looks like we got lucky!
You'll definitely feel cold...just not frigid like the Midwest sites. I always find that the feet are the worst...and hardest to combat no matter what you do.
IF you drive to the game all you need should be in your car
toe warmers
blanket
two different coats
lined shoes
lined pants
and don't go to the top tier of those open stands.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 18, 2022, 05:52:36 PM
Sat 19 | Day
29°
35%
WSW 21 mph
Cloudy and becoming windy with snow showers in the morning. High 29F. Winds WSW at 20 to 30 mph. Chance of snow 40%. Winds could occasionally gust over 40 mph.
That's Chicago.
Gambier not a lot better with high topping out at 30 and 10-20 mph winds, and Sunday topping out around 25.
Amherst and Hoboken look downright balmy, sneaking into low 40s with minimal wind.
21 in Sydney today too, oh but that's celsius :)
Quote from: EnmoreCat on November 18, 2022, 07:01:46 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 18, 2022, 05:52:36 PM
Sat 19 | Day
29°
35%
WSW 21 mph
Cloudy and becoming windy with snow showers in the morning. High 29F. Winds WSW at 20 to 30 mph. Chance of snow 40%. Winds could occasionally gust over 40 mph.
That's Chicago.
Gambier not a lot better with high topping out at 30 and 10-20 mph winds, and Sunday topping out around 25.
Amherst and Hoboken look downright balmy, sneaking into low 40s with minimal wind.
21 in Sydney today too, oh but that's celsius :)
My boy is coming there in December for a semester abroad!
Quote from: camosfan on November 18, 2022, 07:08:00 PM
Quote from: EnmoreCat on November 18, 2022, 07:01:46 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 18, 2022, 05:52:36 PM
Sat 19 | Day
29°
35%
WSW 21 mph
Cloudy and becoming windy with snow showers in the morning. High 29F. Winds WSW at 20 to 30 mph. Chance of snow 40%. Winds could occasionally gust over 40 mph.
That's Chicago.
Gambier not a lot better with high topping out at 30 and 10-20 mph winds, and Sunday topping out around 25.
Amherst and Hoboken look downright balmy, sneaking into low 40s with minimal wind.
21 in Sydney today too, oh but that's celsius :)
My boy is coming there in December for a semester abroad!
Where's he studying? I spent a semester abroad many years ago. SO. MUCH. FUN
The younger one at Tufts.
which school in Australia?
University of New South Wales.
Quote from: camosfan on November 18, 2022, 07:50:38 PM
University of New South Wales.
Great school! I live much closer to University of Sydney where my daughter is about a semester from finishing at. They are both great campuses and UNSW is quite close to very nice beaches. Around Kensington there are great restaurants too. He will have a lot of fun here. I know cricket is a little alien to Americans, but Village Green where UNSW plays, is a really picturesque ground and in the middle of the campus.
Quote from: camosfan on November 18, 2022, 06:56:17 PM
IF you drive to the game all you need should be in your car
toe warmers
blanket
two different coats
lined shoes
lined pants
and don't go to the top tier of those open stands.
Definitely driving and bringing all sorts of cold weather gear. It will be our first time at Amherst not playing Amherst so should be interesting!
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 18, 2022, 05:52:36 PM
Sat 19 | Day
29°
35%
WSW 21 mph
Cloudy and becoming windy with snow showers in the morning. High 29F. Winds WSW at 20 to 30 mph. Chance of snow 40%. Winds could occasionally gust over 40 mph.
That's Chicago.
Gambier not a lot better with high topping out at 30 and 10-20 mph winds, and Sunday topping out around 25.
Amherst and Hoboken look downright balmy, sneaking into low 40s with minimal wind.
I guess the only bright side for St. Thomas is that snow, wind, and cold could introduce a little variability into the game. A defender slips, a wind gust at the right time, and you get a half chance. Of course, that assumes St. Thomas can still feel their feet in time to take advantage of it!
I walked past Stagg Field this evening as I was on my way to a basketball game next door at the Ratner Center. I shivered for about thirty seconds just looking at the stands and imagining myself sitting there for a big chunk of tomorrow afternoon.
Quote from: Yankeesoccerdad on November 18, 2022, 09:51:35 PM
Quote from: camosfan on November 18, 2022, 06:56:17 PM
IF you drive to the game all you need should be in your car
toe warmers
blanket
two different coats
lined shoes
lined pants
and don't go to the top tier of those open stands.
Definitely driving and bringing all sorts of cold weather gear. It will be our first time at Amherst not playing Amherst so should be interesting!
You guys forgot the most important things to pack - hot chocolate and Kahlua!
Quote from: Yankeesoccerdad on November 18, 2022, 09:51:35 PM
Quote from: camosfan on November 18, 2022, 06:56:17 PM
IF you drive to the game all you need should be in your car
toe warmers
blanket
two different coats
lined shoes
lined pants
and don't go to the top tier of those open stands.
Definitely driving and bringing all sorts of cold weather gear. It will be our first time at Amherst not playing Amherst so should be interesting!
good luck!
Mary Washington (at least on the second chance) certainly showing how to beat Amherst's press! Up 1-0 in the 2d minute
Quote from: Kuiper on November 19, 2022, 11:04:59 AM
Mary Washington (at least on the second chance) certainly showing how to beat Amherst's press! Up 1-0 in the 2d minute
I am watching on a phone but looks like the Amherst Keeper did not cover himself in glory.
SC
Despite it being mid November Amherst's field looks like its in the best condition I've ever seen.
Quote from: SimpleCoach on November 19, 2022, 11:13:00 AM
Quote from: Kuiper on November 19, 2022, 11:04:59 AM
Mary Washington (at least on the second chance) certainly showing how to beat Amherst's press! Up 1-0 in the 2d minute
I am watching on a phone but looks like the Amherst Keeper did not cover himself in glory.
SC
White tried to cut off the cross across the box on the ground, failed to get anything on it, and Kirkland on the back post had the open goal. At 6'5", you would think he could cut it off more comfortably, but it was hard to see the distance from the end line or the pace at which it was crossed. That's one of the weaknesses for many tall keepers. They are slow to get down on something like that, although they should have the length to cover more space once they are there. Not sure I fault White on the decision to try to cut it off though. If he let it go across the box he would have had to move across the entire goal to cover the shot. Plus, if he had tipped the ball he would have been left exposed too. The defensive breakdown was more the Amherst defender who allowed the MW player to get around him on the left side and the central and opposite outside back who allowed MW players to run the channels and be available for the cross.
Mary Washington up 2-0. Amherst's keeper definitely could have done better on that one. Maybe he doesn't get to the initial free kick into the box (although a shorter faster keeper might have), but then he definitely should have been able to get there for the looped header back across the goal to the other post. He was caught in no man's land and therefore didn't get to any of the balls. Making it worse is that the goal wasn't off a header from the other post, but a ball on the ground. A GK has to sell out their body for that one and the Amherst keeper was pretty flat-footed.
Incidentally, Mary Washington's Gk is also 6'5" and he's showing how to use that height, catching several crosses in traffic in the box.
UPDATE: To give Amherst's keeper credit, he did a good job blocking a shot on a breakaway.
Amherst pulls one back 2-1. Their goal was similar to Mary Washington's second goal, with the MW GK drawn to the back post on a cross and then a one time volley across the box for the tap in.
This has the making of a barn burner. Still a few minutes to halftime.
2-1 at half. Very entertaining game. Amherst has looked slow to the ball, IMO, but man they are big.
Williams and Ohio Northern, as expected, 0-0 in a defensive struggle. Neither team with a good look at the goal. Williams was overall the slightly more dangerous team in that half, controlling close to 2/3 of the possession and had a few possessions that almost led to a good opportunity, but neither team came anywhere close to scoring. The heavy wind is not helping either offense keep possession.
As happens so often MW had an ideal chance to go up 3-0 but didn't bury a shot from inside the 18 and 30 secs later it's 2-1 instead. MW needed as much breathing room as possible. Amherst feeling pretty good now after that start. You have to figure on Mammoths getting at least one and probably two off set pieces/corners over the course of 90 minutes.
Game started almost exactly as SLU game but with radically different outcome. Amherst goes to Okorogheye off kickoff he tries to turn corner on left side towards the box, looks like he might have drawn a foul (but wasn't as desperate or blatant as SLU foul in same spot) and 20 secs later MW's Kirkland puts one in the back of the net.
Overall, MW has shown really well having never played Amherst before....but now at 2-1 instead of 2-0 or 3-0 would still favor Mammoths to pull this out...3-2, 4-3, or 4-2.
Quote from: stlawus on November 19, 2022, 11:15:09 AM
Despite it being mid November Amherst's field looks like its in the best condition I've ever seen.
The field looks awesome and it seems to play fast enough to suit Mary Washington's game, which often involves quick dribbles and passes on the ground. MW's center midfield (Castillo) is thriving on it and that's basically his game. Frankly, it seems like a surface better suited for MW than Amherst right now.
Wow. St. Thomas with an absolute laser top open the scoring inside of 5 minutes.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2022, 12:01:51 PM
As happens so often MW had an ideal chance to go up 3-0 but didn't bury a shot from inside the 18 and 30 secs later it's 2-1 instead. MW needed as much breathing room as possible.
This. I would love to know how many games Amherst has come from behind in, sometimes from 2-0 down. Opine what you want about the sideline antics, but that mental strength must be commended.
St Thomas is very good. You will now see them manage the game. They will make Chicago come at them and will look to score on the counter. If Chicago scores, St Thomas will not overreact. They will step it up again. Lot's of time left, but St Thomas has been my dark horse this tournament.
This dude name Castillo from Mary Washington is not a Joke.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 19, 2022, 12:10:22 PM
Wow. St. Thomas with an absolute laser top open the scoring inside of 5 minutes.
That's exactly what Taty Aleman can do and the kind of shot where Chicago's keeper is entirely average. He's not going to make that kind of save most of the time. St. Thomas has way too much skill to leave anyone open at the top of the box.
Based on the first 10 minutes of the half, I think Amherst buries one sooner or later, but the good thing for MW is they are creating chances themselves on the counter. A lot of teams against Amherst just seem to accept their fate when they get up a head of steam, but these guys are not.
Looking for clarification on a NCAA rule. Noise makers are not allowed at NCAA tournament games. One game I attended in person, a middle schooler before the game run by the stands ringing a cow bell and an NCAA official told the boy that he was not allowed noise maker at the game. I have been watching the Amherst v Mary Washington game and I can hear a cow bell almost every time Amherst does something right in the fans eyes! So is it a rule or not????
Williams scores!
Quote from: Coach Jeff on November 19, 2022, 12:23:39 PM
Looking for clarification on a NCAA rule. Noise makers are not allowed at NCAA tournament games. One game I attended in person, a middle schooler before the game run by the stands ringing a cow bell and an NCAA official told the boy that he was not allowed noise maker at the game. I have been watching the Amherst v Mary Washington game and I can hear a cow bell almost every time Amherst does something right in the fans eyes! So is it a rule or not????
Not sure about NCAA tournament games, but there certainly isn't that rule in regular season games at least. You can always hear the vuvuzela at Occidental games for example.
Wow incredible run by UMW that resulted in a transition for Amherst and a really nice cross and finish for the equalizer, Amherst seems to be starting to take over but UMW getting some transition opportunities.
Quote from: Kuiper on November 19, 2022, 12:25:47 PM
Quote from: Coach Jeff on November 19, 2022, 12:23:39 PM
Looking for clarification on a NCAA rule. Noise makers are not allowed at NCAA tournament games. One game I attended in person, a middle schooler before the game run by the stands ringing a cow bell and an NCAA official told the boy that he was not allowed noise maker at the game. I have been watching the Amherst v Mary Washington game and I can hear a cow bell almost every time Amherst does something right in the fans eyes! So is it a rule or not????
If that's true, it isn't enforced much in regular season games at least. You can always hear the vuvuzela at Occidental games for example.
If it is a rule that is not enforced, why have it? I felt bad for the middle school boy who was just having fun. what does it matter if the NCAA allowed them?
As much as Williams' Final 4s in 2012 and (particularly) 2013 were unexpected, this year would be another stratosphere. Heads exploding.
PK saved by St Thomas v Chicago. Still leading 1-0
St. Thomas' keeper saves the tame PK to his left by Chicago! Chicago earned the penalty based on a hand ball in the box on a corner.
St Thomas goal keeper has a fantastic save on a penalty. 10:30 left in first half. St Thomas up 1-0.
Mary Washington down to 10 men. Aidan Shell with the red card.
Typical Laurens ten Cate/Amherst. Wished all the refs had the nads to do what this ref did.
Quote from: SKUD on November 19, 2022, 12:54:04 PM
Quote from: Kuiper on November 19, 2022, 12:42:01 PM
Mary Washington down to 10 men. Aidan Shell with the red card.
What game are you watching?
Are the live stats wrong? They gave the red to MW in the 72d minute. Amherst's Tens Cate's red evens things out in the 81st minute, although Anherst's keeper saves the PK attempt
PK for UMW with 4 mins left !!!
Saved!!!!! This game is insane, still tied
Announcer keeps saying Amherst is a man down, so I don't think MW received a red card.
7-1-11 Williams is playing for a spot in the Final 4 tomorrow; the incredulity of the situation and football less synonymous with the golden era Ephs should not detract from the fact that they are in the Elite 8. What a time to be alive.
Quote from: Coach Jeff on November 19, 2022, 12:34:50 PM
Quote from: Kuiper on November 19, 2022, 12:25:47 PM
Quote from: Coach Jeff on November 19, 2022, 12:23:39 PM
Looking for clarification on a NCAA rule. Noise makers are not allowed at NCAA tournament games. One game I attended in person, a middle schooler before the game run by the stands ringing a cow bell and an NCAA official told the boy that he was not allowed noise maker at the game. I have been watching the Amherst v Mary Washington game and I can hear a cow bell almost every time Amherst does something right in the fans eyes! So is it a rule or not????
If that's true, it isn't enforced much in regular season games at least. You can always hear the vuvuzela at Occidental games for example.
If it is a rule that is not enforced, why have it? I felt bad for the middle school boy who was just having fun. what does it matter if the NCAA allowed them?
Noise makers are not illegal in NCAA games to my knowledge. Some schools do not allow them, but they are not banned by NCAA. I have personally blown vuvuzellas, rang cowbells, and beat drums for years (including at final fours) and will be continuing to do so today. There was a recent discussion about this same issue in a referee chat room I'm involved with,, and the consensus amount referees was that there is no prohibition.
Quote from: SKUD on November 19, 2022, 12:59:34 PM
Quote from: Kuiper on November 19, 2022, 12:55:25 PM
Quote from: SKUD on November 19, 2022, 12:54:04 PM
Quote from: Kuiper on November 19, 2022, 12:42:01 PM
Mary Washington down to 10 men. Aidan Shell with the red card.
What game are you watching?
Are the live stats wrong? They gave the red to MW in the 72d minute. Amherst's Tens Cate's red evens things out in the 81st minute, although Anherst's keeper saves the PK attempt
Yes they are wrong it was against ten cates being himself. :P
Live stats is saying there were two different red cards 10 minutes apart. Ten cates may have deserved more than 1 red card, but it gives the first one to a Mary Washington player (which I missed). Must be a mistake I'm assuming.
Quote from: blooter442 on November 19, 2022, 01:00:39 PM
7-1-11 Williams is playing for a spot in the Final 4 tomorrow; the incredulity of the situation and football less synonymous with the golden era Ephs should not detract from the fact that they are in the Elite 8. What a time to be alive.
Uh Oh. AnotherMom better hope W&L wins.
Don't think I haven't been watching with particular interest!
Heading to OT at Amherst, UMW with the better chances the last ten minutes, back and forth game, missed penalty is crushing if Amherst prevails.
Quote from: Kuiper on November 19, 2022, 01:01:58 PM
Quote from: SKUD on November 19, 2022, 12:59:34 PM
Quote from: Kuiper on November 19, 2022, 12:55:25 PM
Quote from: SKUD on November 19, 2022, 12:54:04 PM
Quote from: Kuiper on November 19, 2022, 12:42:01 PM
Mary Washington down to 10 men. Aidan Shell with the red card.
What game are you watching?
Are the live stats wrong? They gave the red to MW in the 72d minute. Amherst's Tens Cate's red evens things out in the 81st minute, although Anherst's keeper saves the PK attempt
Yes they are wrong it was against ten cates being himself. :P
Live stats is saying there were two different red cards 10 minutes apart. Ten cates may have deserved more than 1 red card, but it gives the first one to a Mary Washington player (which I missed). Must be a mistake I'm assuming.
The announcer is now indicating that I was correct. Mary Washington was playing down a man for ten minutes. Now both teams have 10 men.
Chicago's Yetishefsky scores a goal on a header from a beautifully placed free kick into the box and it is tied 1-1.
Really good chance for Amherst 4 mins left in second OT denied by UMW
Off to PKs at Hitchcock field
Chicago up 2-1. 24 minutes left. Now we'll see what St Thomas is made of.
Chicago up 3-1. 20 minutes left. Game is looking over.
UMW advances on PKs, 4-3.
Unbelievable match between UMW and Amherst, congrats to the Eagles!
Quote from: CC United on November 19, 2022, 01:40:54 PM
Chicago up 3-1. 20 minutes left. Game is looking over.
Chicago up 4-1. Poor clearance and Alex Lee slots it home. St. Thomas played valiently and held on for a long time, but this one's all but over with 17 minutes to play.
Crazy to believe Chicago was 1-0 down about a half-hour ago.
Another Champion out.
Amherst gone in penalties.
Congratulations to MW on a great game, courageously done while a man down before Amherst's over-the-top playing got them a red also. 21 fouls to 8, 4 YCs to 1. I'm very pleased that the officials had the balls to call fouls on that field. MW wins the shootout, helping to keep the world safer for democracy. ;D
Quote from: Falconer on November 19, 2022, 01:51:27 PM
Congratulations to MW on a great game, courageously done while a man down before Amherst's over-the-top playing got them a red also. 21 fouls to 8, 4 YCs to 1. I'm very pleased that the officials had the balls to call fouls on that field. MW wins the shootout, helping to keep the world safer for democracy. ;D
Last 2 teams to knock out Amherst won the whole thing, just saying.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 19, 2022, 01:44:15 PM
UMW advances on PKs, 4-3.
I didn't hear it announced, but Amherst seemed to change its keeper for the shootout from White to Max Landa (a kid from La Canada Flintridge HS in Los Angeles). That continues the trend of using backup GKs on PK shootouts. He did save one, but it wasn't enough.
Final in Chicago as U of C beat St. Thomas 4-1. Cinderella gets sent home from the ball, but St. Thomas will be a force next year with Aleman and Castro returning (and maybe Salako if he uses a Covid year).
Chicago is just so clinical. They punished St. Thomas' mistakes, which is what strong teams do, and they were patient in waiting for them.
Mary Washington 2 Amherst 2 MW progress
Prior to the Tournament starting I was feeling some jealousy for the likes of Conn and previous winners. They have done it, that can't ever be taken away, they have complete certainty about what they have achieved. The game had a frenetic start, the referee turned down what looked to me a very good penalty shout inside the first minute and MW went down the other end and scored. MW was playing the better and I am comfortable in saying that my underestimation skills don't need much in the way of honing. Despite their ranking, I didn't expect they would be so good. Skilful, fast play with some intricate passing, hard not to appreciate. The Mammoths did get back into it eventually and 2-1 at half time was a definite lifeline.
Very early in the second half, an Amherst shot hit the post and from a momentum point of view that would have been a pretty nice way to start, but it didn't take too long for the Mammoths to equalize and most (me included) probably thought that Amherst would roll on. Again, super underestimation skills as the Eagles whilst getting pushed back still played their game and to me, looked pretty confident. With 4 minutes to go, MW got a penalty and the much maligned Amherst keeper made a fine save to keep the season alive.
In extra time, Amherst had a couple of very good opportunities to score, but didn't and there was also some last ditch Mammoths defending as MW showed they were equally dangerous on the break.
There is a randomness around penalties, but in this particular shootout the clear observation was that MW took theirs clinically and deserved to progress and on the whole of the game, that seemed just about fair to me too.
Ultimately, Amherst lost just one game all season, to Tufts and whilst getting knocked out in the round of 16 will probably be considered a disappointment and underachievement by most, winning the NESCAC Conference was still an outstanding outcome for a group that had lost a seriously talented group of seniors. The 2022 group has my extreme Ammiration and as always, I look forward to whatever comes next. I am already thinking about what games I might get to see next year, it will come around soon enough.
For MW, congratulations, I still have a lot to learn about D3 soccer, but I'd like to think I know the game in general and they definitely won't be in the elite 8 to make up the numbers, they are right up to their ears in this.
MW played their game today and should've had 4+ goals. They certainly deserved to win even if it took PK's for them to advance. This was the first time I had seen them and left impressed.
Amherst were big and imposing this year but never seemed to really have what was needed to go deep in the tournament. Just not much offensive punch against quality teams. Final 16 was about their ceiling this year.
amherst's loss today at home couldn't happen to a more appropriate coach ....
No comments on Kenyon/W&L game?? It's fun to watch this game. Scoreless at the half.
Interesting first half of Kenyon hosting W&L. The first 10 minutes were all Kenyon, with one really good chance that W&L's keeper made a great save and a couple other half chances. It looked grim for the Generals in those first 10, but after that I think W&L settled in to the game and it became much more even. Over the next 20-25 it looked like W&L had the better of play by a bit and a few half chances and then forced Kenyon's keeper into an equally good save as the one W&L's keeper had to make. Late in the half Kenyon had another great opportunity that may have found net if it hadn't bounced off their own player as the game reverted over the last 10-15 or so to pretty much a 50/50 back and forth.
As the regular season stats show, both these teams are potent and any attack could result in a goal, but so far the defenses have held. It looked like the wind was mostly across the field, but definitely shading more toward blowing in Kenyon's face in the first half, so they should have what advantage there is of the wind in the second. I think the sun may also be more in W&L's face in the second half, but it's not as easy to read shadows on tv.
It's a nice looking field and it's been an up and down game that somehow remains 0-0. I'll be shocked if the score ends regulation that way. Both teams have had their chances.
Quote from: Another Mom on November 19, 2022, 02:34:32 PM
No comments on Kenyon/W&L game?? It's fun to watch this game. Scoreless at the half.
The field and win is the difference maker early. W&L can't play it's game of long diagonals with this tiny field, and Kenyon can't solve the center backs with their low crosses. We are in for an exciting second half.
I'll also say it has been a nice game of soccer. Kenyon is listed as 10 fouls to W&L's 5, but I haven't seen but 1 or 2 I think have been heavy touches from either side and I was flat out surprised the stats show Kenyon with that many fouls as I haven't really noticed. There has been some very pretty link up play by both teams, some nice one on one play, some pretty switches even given the wind.
I was watching as much off the ball runs as the camera let me see and I was very impressed with W&L's Agbeyegbi. His off the ball movement has been impressive. He took a shot about mid-first half that I think would have been better laid off to the right wing who had a clear movement on goal, but the shot he took was a solid look from 20 yards out as well and didn't miss by too much.
Kenyon seems to have some serious speed out wide. I don't know the players but there is one blonde haired midfielder who was camera side in the first half who just blew past some Generals multiple times and I saw it in some other spots as well.
The defenses have generally done a great job of cutting off the through balls, and I think the first team to slide one past will be a goal. Overall, a very worthy first half of a sweet 16 game. Two very good teams.
Kenyon strikes for a second time in 5 minutes with a patient and well-worked counter attack goal after a W&L free kick at the top of the box went right into the wall.
Kenyon up 2-0.
W&L drags one back on some nice attacking movement. 2-1 Kenyon.
Slow starts for W&L in both halves could be the killer but with these offenses if this game stays this open more goals will come.
Quote from: Kuiper on November 19, 2022, 02:55:59 PM
Kenyon strikes for a second time in 5 minutes with a patient and well-worked counter attack goal after a W&L free kick at the top of the box went right into the wall.
Kenyon up 2-0.
W&L scores on a beautiful passing sequence inside the box and it's 2-1.
W&L keeper gets caught in possession 30 yards out in no man's land. Kenyon may have been able to salt the game away there but didn't capitalize.
Quote from: jknezek on November 19, 2022, 03:07:23 PM
W&L keeper gets caught in possession 30 yards out in no man's land. Kenyon may have been able to salt the game away there but didn't capitalize.
Tough to hit the one time shot from that far out over everyone's head into the empty net, especially from an angle, but W&L got away with one there.
Quote from: Kuiper on November 19, 2022, 03:13:27 PM
Quote from: jknezek on November 19, 2022, 03:07:23 PM
W&L keeper gets caught in possession 30 yards out in no man's land. Kenyon may have been able to salt the game away there but didn't capitalize.
Tough to hit the one time shot from that far out over everyone's head into the empty net, especially from an angle, but W&L got away with one there.
Agreed. But Kenyon is playing for their life right now as W&L is all over them. Be interesting to see if the Generals can tie it up or if Kenyon gets another breakaway and can put the screws down. Somehow I feel there is at least one more goal coming in the last 20.
Quote from: jknezek on November 19, 2022, 03:16:05 PM
Quote from: Kuiper on November 19, 2022, 03:13:27 PM
Quote from: jknezek on November 19, 2022, 03:07:23 PM
W&L keeper gets caught in possession 30 yards out in no man's land. Kenyon may have been able to salt the game away there but didn't capitalize.
Tough to hit the one time shot from that far out over everyone's head into the empty net, especially from an angle, but W&L got away with one there.
Agreed. But Kenyon is playing for their life right now as W&L is all over them. Be interesting to see if the Generals can tie it up or if Kenyon gets another breakaway and can put the screws down. Somehow I feel there is at least one more goal coming in the last 20.
There's your insurance goal. Kenyon up 3-1
Very much against the run of play Kenyon puts together a great passing goal. That was a very pretty use of space and runs.
Anyone at Stevens and know when Catholic and hop game plans to kickoff?
Congratulations Kenyon. Nice win. Put the screws to the Generals in the first 10 minutes of each half and it paid off, absorbed the pressure when needed and scored a wonderful insurance goal. I'll be pulling for you to go all the way!
Quote from: jknezek on November 19, 2022, 03:39:13 PM
Congratulations Kenyon. Nice win. Put the screws to the Generals in the first 10 minutes of each half and it paid off, absorbed the pressure when needed and scored a wonderful insurance goal. I'll be pulling for you to go all the way!
That.
Quote from: jknezek on November 19, 2022, 03:39:13 PM
Congratulations Kenyon. Nice win. Put the screws to the Generals in the first 10 minutes of each half and it paid off, absorbed the pressure when needed and scored a wonderful insurance goal. I'll be pulling for you to go all the way!
Agree. Will be rooting for Kenyon to go all the way.
Quote from: LetteroftheLaw on November 19, 2022, 03:37:23 PM
Anyone at Stevens and know when Catholic and hop game plans to kickoff?
About 3:50 EST.
Quote from: Another Mom on November 19, 2022, 03:43:20 PM
Quote from: jknezek on November 19, 2022, 03:39:13 PM
Congratulations Kenyon. Nice win. Put the screws to the Generals in the first 10 minutes of each half and it paid off, absorbed the pressure when needed and scored a wonderful insurance goal. I'll be pulling for you to go all the way!
Agree. Will be rooting for Kenyon to go all the way.
Well for sake of confusions @Another Mom
Washington Lee finishes behind Williams this year.
Quote from: Another Mom on August 07, 2022, 11:02:07 AM
Well, I stand by my opinion :-)
Seriously, teams that didn't make the ncaa tournament ranked in the top 10, over a team that finished in the final four? How does that make any sense? What does Massey "think" is changing. One has a longstanding coach, the other doesn't. Do you think Massey has some special insight into the incoming freshmen?!
I will eat my hat if Williams finishes the year ahead of Washington and Lee -- and I will do it on @simplecoach's YouTube channel to boot!
Hmmm doesn't that make Williams finishing ahead of W&L . Can someone please pass the nacho cheese
Bowdoin takes a 3-1 lead over Oneonta with half an hour left.
Bowdoin putting the screws to Oneonta. Up 3-1 on a goal that looked like the whole dribbling sequence and pass was in slow motion. 28 minutes left.
Quote from: BigSoccerFan on November 19, 2022, 03:47:39 PM
Quote from: Another Mom on November 19, 2022, 03:43:20 PM
Quote from: jknezek on November 19, 2022, 03:39:13 PM
Congratulations Kenyon. Nice win. Put the screws to the Generals in the first 10 minutes of each half and it paid off, absorbed the pressure when needed and scored a wonderful insurance goal. I'll be pulling for you to go all the way!
Agree. Will be rooting for Kenyon to go all the way.
Well for sake of confusions @Another Mom
Washington Lee finishes behind Williams this year.
Quote from: Another Mom on August 07, 2022, 11:02:07 AM
Well, I stand by my opinion :-)
Seriously, teams that didn't make the ncaa tournament ranked in the top 10, over a team that finished in the final four? How does that make any sense? What does Massey "think" is changing. One has a longstanding coach, the other doesn't. Do you think Massey has some special insight into the incoming freshmen?!
I will eat my hat if Williams finishes the year ahead of Washington and Lee -- and I will do it on @simplecoach's YouTube channel to boot!
Hmmm doesn't that make Williams finishing ahead of W&L . Can someone please pass the nacho cheese
Looking to start a thread on what kind of hat tastes best.
Quote from: Kuiper on November 19, 2022, 01:55:40 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 19, 2022, 01:44:15 PM
UMW advances on PKs, 4-3.
I didn't hear it announced, but Amherst seemed to change its keeper for the shootout from White to Max Landa (a kid from La Canada Flintridge HS in Los Angeles). That continues the trend of using backup GKs on PK shootouts. He did save one, but it wasn't enough.
The PBP announcer said that it was Landa when he came out for the second PK.
Quote from: BigSoccerFan on November 19, 2022, 03:47:39 PM
Quote from: Another Mom on November 19, 2022, 03:43:20 PM
Quote from: jknezek on November 19, 2022, 03:39:13 PM
Congratulations Kenyon. Nice win. Put the screws to the Generals in the first 10 minutes of each half and it paid off, absorbed the pressure when needed and scored a wonderful insurance goal. I'll be pulling for you to go all the way!
Agree. Will be rooting for Kenyon to go all the way.
Well for sake of confusions @Another Mom
Washington Lee finishes behind Williams this year.
Quote from: Another Mom on August 07, 2022, 11:02:07 AM
Well, I stand by my opinion :-)
Seriously, teams that didn't make the ncaa tournament ranked in the top 10, over a team that finished in the final four? How does that make any sense? What does Massey "think" is changing. One has a longstanding coach, the other doesn't. Do you think Massey has some special insight into the incoming freshmen?!
I will eat my hat if Williams finishes the year ahead of Washington and Lee -- and I will do it on @simplecoach's YouTube channel to boot!
Hmmm doesn't that make Williams finishing ahead of W&L . Can someone please pass the nacho cheese
I'm guessing @AnotherMom has a closet full of edible sombrero hats from a Despicable Me-themed party.
I actually have a photo all cued up to post, but can't figure out how. It says the file's too large. Will keep working on it. Though I do wish W&L could have played head to head.
St. Olaf scores on a breakaway to take a 2-1 lead over Gustavus Adolphus with 40 minutes to go.
Quote from: Another Mom on November 19, 2022, 04:06:03 PM
I actually have a photo all cued up to post, but can't figure out how. It says the file's too large. Will keep working on it. Though I do wish W&L could have played head to head.
The file is too large because the hat is too large...?
Quote from: Kuiper on November 19, 2022, 04:07:49 PM
St. Olaf scores on a breakaway to take a 2-1 lead over Gustavus Adolphus with 40 minutes to go.
Holy cow! Gustavus Adolphus ties it up 2-2 a couple of minutes later. The St. Olaf keeper tried to come out against a negative ball from the endline and gets beaten too easily for the goal. I have to say, that's what you get for wearing a GK kit with hoops! Honestly, the GK looks like a reverse candy cane.
Wow...obviously relieved, grateful, and feel very fortunate that Kenyon got through that one. Really good chance W&L wins that game if they got to 2-2, which they almost did multiple times with balls sliding across the goal mouth that easily could have been tapped in at far post. At minimum would have ended up 3-3 or 4-4 and we'd be in OT.
So first, congrats to W&L. Best team Kenyon has played all season probably by significant margin (allowing that Calvin may have had just an off day). Extremely talented team and @jknezek was correct imo that there were multiple 5-10 min stretches where they had Kenyon's defenders really scrambling and holding on...which, for the most part, they did...and credit to Nguyen, Burns, Muther and late in game Thesing for bending and bending but not breaking. I was surprised how easily W&L cut through Kenyon's midfield. Led to giving up way too many deep throws, corners, and free kicks. And a really attractive style of soccer. Like I have said in a couple of places I think these programs are very similar, very even, and will likely have future encounters...definitely two of the top ten programs in the country and arguably top five or close to it.
I don't know if W&L always does this but first thing I noticed in 1st half is that no one has pressured Kenyon in the back like they did....Nguyen and Burns (and Pedreschi) love to ping the ball around in the back and set up driven balls to the wings or over the top and W&L just didn't let them do that. They also for the most part took Upton out of the game and Duratovic really got nothing.
Now we'll see if Kenyon has what it takes to complete the deal. Watching the Williams game it seemed like the Ephs have six or seven players named Boardman. He was everywhere.
Quote from: Kuiper on November 19, 2022, 04:07:49 PM
St. Olaf scores on a breakaway to take a 2-1 lead over Gustavus Adolphus with 40 minutes to go.
It would end in a tie most likely as that was Williams fame plan.
Hopkins up 2-0 at the half but there have been some very nervy moments. Really nice goals for Hopkins and probably should've had another. Hopkins cleared a ball off the line on a corner and Catholic have buzzed around a fair bit. They have the edge on shots at 10-7... But Hopkins has a slight edge in possession. Kind of how we thought this would go, but I would say I'd like Hop to settle down a bit more. Giving the ball up a bit too much in the middle.
Okay, cardinals have their work cut out for them in the second half. Interesting first half, thought Catholic actually pressed well and put it on JHU pretty well but two transition goals for Hopkins has the cardinals on their heels. Quality finishes, no doubt about that but limited chances for Hopkins outside of that. Hats off to being efficient with the chances and hoping Catholic can get a quick one to keep this competitive.
Anybody have any clue why the Williams recap would refer to ONU like 8 times as the 'Klondikes'?
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2022, 05:01:45 PM
Anybody have any clue why the Williams recap would refer to ONU like 8 times as the 'Klondikes'?
Klondike is the name of ONU's polar bear mascot
https://www.onu.edu/news/klondikes-revealed-2022
Quote from: Kuiper on November 19, 2022, 05:03:29 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2022, 05:01:45 PM
Anybody have any clue why the Williams recap would refer to ONU like 8 times as the 'Klondikes'?
Klondike is the name of ONU's polar bear mascot
https://www.onu.edu/news/klondikes-revealed-2022
I don't get it....I actually checked the soccer website before posting and everything still says Polar Bears.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2022, 05:05:54 PM
Quote from: Kuiper on November 19, 2022, 05:03:29 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2022, 05:01:45 PM
Anybody have any clue why the Williams recap would refer to ONU like 8 times as the 'Klondikes'?
Klondike is the name of ONU's polar bear mascot
https://www.onu.edu/news/klondikes-revealed-2022
I don't get it....I actually checked the soccer website before posting and everything still says Polar Bears.
The nickname for the sports teams is Polar Bears, but they have a mascot named Klondike and so Klondikes is kind of a secondary or unofficial nickname.
I forgot to mention that I thought #16 Sebastian Gaese had the game of his life and I think got the first two assists. His ability to hold up and win balls will be important against Williams.
Olaf and GAC headed to PK's.
Quote from: gustiefan04 on November 19, 2022, 05:23:27 PM
Olaf and GAC headed to PK's.
Gustavus Adolphus advances 4-3 in the shootout
Quote from: LetteroftheLaw on November 19, 2022, 05:01:06 PM
Okay, cardinals have their work cut out for them in the second half. Interesting first half, thought Catholic actually pressed well and put it on JHU pretty well but two transition goals for Hopkins has the cardinals on their heels. Quality finishes, no doubt about that but limited chances for Hopkins outside of that. Hats off to being efficient with the chances and hoping Catholic can get a quick one to keep this competitive.
Yeah, they did a nice job in the first, but it's exhausting chasing Hopkins around in the 2nd. Like you said, it's one thing to be down 1 and need to chase the game... Down 2 is very difficult against the Jays. Your boys never ever quit, which is truly admirable.
Man, if Hopkins could've finished one of many chances in the second, the game would've been well and truly over. Going on overall quality chances, I can see a scenario where that game was 5-4 or in that range.
As it stands, Hopkins advances to the Elite 8 not having conceded a goal.
Quote from: FBALLISLIFE on November 19, 2022, 02:44:36 PM
Quote from: Another Mom on November 19, 2022, 02:34:32 PM
No comments on Kenyon/W&L game?? It's fun to watch this game. Scoreless at the half.
The field and win is the difference maker early. W&L can't play it's game of long diagonals with this tiny field, and Kenyon can't solve the center backs with their low crosses. We are in for an exciting second half.
Tiny field? It's 120x75. You'll see some of these tiny fields used in Qatar starting tomorrow. . .
Yeah, the field in Gambier seemed pretty massive on my feed the last few weeks.
Quote from: SKUD on November 19, 2022, 12:59:34 PM
Quote from: Kuiper on November 19, 2022, 12:55:25 PM
Quote from: SKUD on November 19, 2022, 12:54:04 PM
Quote from: Kuiper on November 19, 2022, 12:42:01 PM
Mary Washington down to 10 men. Aidan Shell with the red card.
What game are you watching?
Are the live stats wrong? They gave the red to MW in the 72d minute. Amherst's Tens Cate's red evens things out in the 81st minute, although Anherst's keeper saves the PK attempt
Yes they are wrong it was against ten cates being himself. :P
Was driving from Chicago back to Ohio today and didn't get a chance to watch any of the games. What was the red for? I'm desperately trying to find an on-demand version of this game to watch but it may have been scrubbed from Amherst's records >:(
Also, I know it's my fault for not being available to watch, but why is it so hard to find any of these games after the fact when they are all recorded and it's 2022!
Kenyon was away team today and they are for tomorrow as well. So maybe that is why they played the later game. So hosting and seeding played no role, or both Williams and W&L seeded ahead of Owls?
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2022, 04:18:47 PM
Wow...obviously relieved, grateful, and feel very fortunate that Kenyon got through that one. Really good chance W&L wins that game if they got to 2-2, which they almost did multiple times with balls sliding across the goal mouth that easily could have been tapped in at far post. At minimum would have ended up 3-3 or 4-4 and we'd be in OT.
So first, congrats to W&L. Best team Kenyon has played all season probably by significant margin (allowing that Calvin may have had just an off day). Extremely talented team and @jknezek was correct imo that there were multiple 5-10 min stretches where they had Kenyon's defenders really scrambling and holding on...which, for the most part, they did...and credit to Nguyen, Burns, Muther and late in game Thesing for bending and bending but not breaking. I was surprised how easily W&L cut through Kenyon's midfield. Led to giving up way too many deep throws, corners, and free kicks. And a really attractive style of soccer. Like I have said in a couple of places I think these programs are very similar, very even, and will likely have future encounters...definitely two of the top ten programs in the country and arguably top five or close to it.
I don't know if W&L always does this but first thing I noticed in 1st half is that no one has pressured Kenyon in the back like they did....Nguyen and Burns (and Pedreschi) love to ping the ball around in the back and set up driven balls to the wings or over the top and W&L just didn't let them do that. They also for the most part took Upton out of the game and Duratovic really got nothing.
Now we'll see if Kenyon has what it takes to complete the deal. Watching the Williams game it seemed like the Ephs have six or seven players named Boardman. He was everywhere.
Couple things: several Kenyon players had an off day today. Some key players too.
Midfield was dominated by W&L for large portions of the game. One reason, as you alluded to: they smartly pushed their center forward up against Kenyon's deepest back. I have not seen any team do this to Kenyon this year. This positioning opened up space between the backs and midfield - Kenyon relies on compactness and connected lines. W&L opened up the midfield, and they had a couple really talented middies #6 & #10. #3 for Kenyon - played in 18 previous games - very important midfielder - is out with the concussion suffered against Calvin. His absence was noticeable.
The high press W&L employed rattled the normally composed Kenyon side. Again, I have not seen a team "disrespect" Kenyon this year. Said another way: W&L was not afraid of Kenyon and played as such. Some of the one and two-touch play we've seen throughout the year was missing - credit W&L.
W&L's press may have contributed to Kenyon's direct play today, but they fell in love with direct play last week vs Calvin. It began to pay dividends as soon as they got the wind behind them second half -they converted. It's one thing to watch Sam Carson on video and note how fast he is, but to see his ridiculous speed, anticipation and finishing in person is a treat. And he was OS at least 5 times today trying to get a one v one. He got it right on the third Kenyon goal.
Kenyon's defense was opened up like no other time this year. Forcing the center backs to mark, good midfield play - W&L were unlucky not to have scored more.
ONU did not play a good team game today. Too much holding onto the ball - more than a 3 count. Turning into pressure, playing the ball right back to where it came from - oh, where there was pressure. Did not use the entire field or change the point of attack. Williams was the better team: played as a unit, especially when pressing without the ball. I thought they won 50/50 duels by at least a 90% to 10% margin. Same for second balls. They cleaned everything.
At half I mentioned that Williams might take advantage of the wind with #26 long throws. Yes, they are borderline legal, watch the back foot - but no one calls this violation any more. Sure enough that's how they get their goal.
I can see how each team may win tomorrow. If Kenyon doesn't fix some of its issues today they may be disappointed tomorrow afternoon. Williams knows how Kenyon like to attack - and their 4 backs are solid - loved #6 today.
Domino, all that fits with what I observed.
That really sucks about Nardiello-Smith...not only is he very talented and a competitor but he's a big part of that older group that stuck around. I remember the play....foul was called on him.
St. Thomas is a supremely talented offensive team and will go far again next year. But their spotty defense could not hold up to UChicago's second-half onslaught. The Maroons are a second half team and demonstrated that once again in the bitter cold and wind. A better PK attempt and the final should have been 5-1.
The match with GAC tomorrow will have a much different tenor. The GACvSTO game today was played wide open and wild, but the Maroons won't be taking the same risks the Oles were taking all day today.
I caught the latter part of Amherst/MW while waiting for Bowdoin/Oneonta. Someone forgot to tell MW they were supposed to lose. MW showed up and played with great confidence and skill, despite being outsized. On the sidelines, several people noted Amherst got some early yellows and that actually caused them to play less aggressive than usual. MW had a chance to put the game away on a penalty late in the second half, but Amherst GK had a great save to keep the game tied.
As the game went to OT and PK, more Bowdoin and Oneonta fans arrived and joined the MW cheering section. In PKs, Amherst brought in a smaller GK, presumably because he is more agile on dives.
It was a surreal game—everyone but MW thought Amherst would find a way to win but it didn't happen.
MW players after the game had a look on their faces like Tom Brady winning his first Super Bowl. Did this really happen? Great win for what seems like a nice group of players.
congrats, you guys demolish The Red Dragons! :)
Good observations on Williams, Domino. The Ephs looked far more confident today than vs Messiah, where it felt like they were hanging on for dear life much of the game. Finishing is always an issue for this team but they at least looked dangerous and earned the goal they managed to put home.
Number 6 is Nick Boardman and he is clearly the best player on the team, especially after another star went down with a mid-season injury. He should be a first team all-American. There is an enormous amount of pressure each game on Boardman and the other stellar center back, Gara Grady, along with GK Diffley. They play every minute knowing that most games the Ephs are not gonna score more than one goal and they have to hold the center, and have done a fantastic job especially in the post season. The Ephs have surrendered an incredible three goals in their last nine games (all vs very good competition) but clearly the Kenyon offense is at a different level than all but Messiah.
The Ephs' coach does a nice job mixing and matching the rest of the lineup, playing a very deep bench filled with solid contributors that allows guys to stay fresh and run intensely all 90 minutes, but there isn't one or two guys who are the engine of the offense with any consistency, nor one super dangerous striker (the Ephs really do miss Felitto's ability to finish plays). Williams as always tomorrow will rely on the center of the defense to hold up and hope it can scrap for a goal or two but if Kenyon can get to two goals it starts to get very dicey for Williams.
Quote from: camosfan on November 19, 2022, 10:32:20 PM
congrats, you guys demolish The Red Dragons! :)
Thanks camosfan! Oneonta is a good team, as you know. The field at Amherst was in great shape, but I think Oneonta is more dangerous on turf. Oneonta scored first and had the upper hand early. Bowdoin answered two minutes later with Felipe Rueda Duran getting the equalizer. Felipe is part of an amazing group of first years who have had a big impact this year. At the 23 minute mark, NESCAC rookie of the year Tyler Huck scored a go ahead goal for Bowdoin. Huck was injured in the scoring play and came off the field, as did POY Reid, who had a non-contact injury on the other end of the field. Another first year, Paul Cluskey took over for Reid and had an impressive game. The frosh class made substantial contributions throughout the season and it was especially felt today.
After going down 2-1, Oneonta played with more purpose and had the run of play for a while. The turning point in the game came late in the first half when Oneonta was awarded a penalty kick and threatened to equalize. Bowdoin GK Webber dove correctly and got the big save. The momentum swung after that. Despite holding possession for long stretches, Oneonta did not have great chances. Bowdoin's Charlie Ward added an insurance goal with 30 minutes left in the match to secure the win.
Overall, a good day to be a polar bear. Bowdoin and MW are staying at the same hotel in Amherst, so don't expect any fire alarms.
Tomorrow at Amherst, under the radar Bowdoin meets Cinderella MW. Can't wait!
Quote from: Yankeesoccerdad on November 19, 2022, 11:16:45 PM
Overall, a good day to be a polar bear.
It depends upon what kind of Polar Bear you are. It wasn't a good day at all to be this kind:
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a6/f5/9c/a6f59c7d0816d481b122e3fea989bd93.jpg)
Want to shout out Paul Newman and the very few fans that will be cheering for their team during a World Cup.
This is something most of us have never done and will never do. These players from the Elite 8 Will have special memories.
For people who have played, there is a special feeling one gets from watching a world cup as a player.
Yesterday was a tough reminder that only one group of seniors wont be shedding tears at the end of the season.
The only positive as a fan is getting to watch some real quality Football(ers) on show @ the dance.
Watching Mary Washington I came away extremely impressed. They play proper football and have composed players who dont get rattled.
Kirkland gets the goals and attention, but that kid Castillo, who is half the size of the Amherst kids, dominated the midfield and bossed the game. He created the penalty that was missed in the last 3 minutes and was spraying the ball with comfort all around the field. MW is also extremely deep.
Whoever beats these guys has a great chance of winning the title in my opinion. Just a hunch.
Quote from: Saint of Old on November 20, 2022, 08:10:33 AM
Want to shout out Paul Newman and the very few fans that will be cheering for their team during a World Cup.
This is something most of us have never done and will never do. These players from the Elite 8 Will have special memories.
For people who have played, there is a special feeling one gets from watching a world cup as a player.
Yesterday was a tough reminder that only one group of seniors wont be shedding tears at the end of the season.
The only positive as a fan is getting to watch some real quality Football(ers) on show @ the dance.
Watching Mary Washington I came away extremely impressed. They play proper football and have composed players who dont get rattled.
Kirkland gets the goals and attention, but that kid Castillo, who is half the size of the Amherst kids, dominated the midfield and bossed the game. He created the penalty that was missed in the last 3 minutes and was spraying the ball with comfort all around the field. MW is also extremely deep.
Whoever beats these guys has a great chance of winning the title in my opinion. Just a hunch.
And coach Kilby and his staff are great. My son went on a recruiting trip there and I was very impressed. I'm rooting for them for sure.
Quote from: nescac1 on November 19, 2022, 10:54:14 PM
Good observations on Williams, Domino. The Ephs looked far more confident today than vs Messiah, where it felt like they were hanging on for dear life much of the game. Finishing is always an issue for this team but they at least looked dangerous and earned the goal they managed to put home.
Number 6 is Nick Boardman and he is clearly the best player on the team, especially after another star went down with a mid-season injury. He should be a first team all-American. There is an enormous amount of pressure each game on Boardman and the other stellar center back, Gara Grady, along with GK Diffley. They play every minute knowing that most games the Ephs are not gonna score more than one goal and they have to hold the center, and have done a fantastic job especially in the post season. The Ephs have surrendered an incredible three goals in their last nine games (all vs very good competition) but clearly the Kenyon offense is at a different level than all but Messiah.
The Ephs' coach does a nice job mixing and matching the rest of the lineup, playing a very deep bench filled with solid contributors that allows guys to stay fresh and run intensely all 90 minutes, but there isn't one or two guys who are the engine of the offense with any consistency, nor one super dangerous striker (the Ephs really do miss Felitto's ability to finish plays). Williams as always tomorrow will rely on the center of the defense to hold up and hope it can scrap for a goal or two but if Kenyon can get to two goals it starts to get very dicey for Williams.
Good observation on Boardman. He is not the most technical player, but at this level, he doesn't need to be. What he is, however, is a superior athlete to most everyone he is up against on the field. He is big, he his fast, he can get up in the air, and he has a great feel for the game. That together makes his lack of technical quality moot. At this level, on these fields, at this time of year, imho, superior athleticism beats superior technique.
As for Bowdoin, let the crowd continue to sleep on them. Their results, and their resilience, speaks volumes.
Definitely cheering for Bowdoin today. Sounds like some key guys got hurt yesterday - hopefully they can go today! It's up to Bowdoin and/or Williams to keep the long NESCAC Final Four streak alive ...
A little anecdote about Kenyon. After narrowly beating Kenyon last year, a 5th year senior at Messiah mentioned that that Kenyon team was the best team he'd played during his time at Messiah. It was a shame they played in the 2nd round.
Agree with Domino1195 on the Williams analysis. Amazing that they are in the Elite 8 and yet to score a goal in the run of play in the tournament. Their defense moves as one and the pressure is constant. And yes, the throws are not alway borderline illegal, but illegal; but as you stated, it rarely gets called.
Quote from: Yankeesoccerdad on November 19, 2022, 11:16:45 PM
Quote from: camosfan on November 19, 2022, 10:32:20 PM
congrats, you guys demolish The Red Dragons! :)
Thanks camosfan! Oneonta is a good team, as you know. The field at Amherst was in great shape, but I think Oneonta is more dangerous on turf. Oneonta scored first and had the upper hand early. Bowdoin answered two minutes later with Felipe Rueda Duran getting the equalizer. Felipe is part of an amazing group of first years who have had a big impact this year. At the 23 minute mark, NESCAC rookie of the year Tyler Huck scored a go ahead goal for Bowdoin. Huck was injured in the scoring play and came off the field, as did POY Reid, who had a non-contact injury on the other end of the field. Another first year, Paul Cluskey took over for Reid and had an impressive game. The frosh class made substantial contributions throughout the season and it was especially felt today.
After going down 2-1, Oneonta played with more purpose and had the run of play for a while. The turning point in the game came late in the first half when Oneonta was awarded a penalty kick and threatened to equalize. Bowdoin GK Webber dove correctly and got the big save. The momentum swung after that. Despite holding possession for long stretches, Oneonta did not have great chances. Bowdoin's Charlie Ward added an insurance goal with 30 minutes left in the match to secure the win.
Overall, a good day to be a polar bear. Bowdoin and MW are staying at the same hotel in Amherst, so don't expect any fire alarms.
Tomorrow at Amherst, under the radar Bowdoin meets Cinderella MW. Can't wait!
Yankeesoccerdad, am I correct in guessing you're a parent of a current Bowdoin player? If you are, I encourage you to enjoy the ride as long as it lasts. We were parents of a Bowdoin player during their run to the 2010 Final Four in San Antonio. That team had a great starting 11 and one super sub, but really had no depth beyond that. The lack of depth caught up with them when one of their star CMs pulled up with a hamstring less than 10 minutes into the semi-final game vs. Lynchburg. Bowdoin hung onto a 1-0 lead into the 88th minute, when they ran completely out of gas, surrendered an equalizer, and then lost in OT.
As you indicated, this 2022 Bowdoin team has more depth, and their first year class has been impressive. Without knowing it for certain, my guess is that second year assistant coach Andrew Banadda has had a positive impact on recruiting. Ironically, Andrew was a starter for Middlebury when they played three memorable games against my son's Bowdoin team in 2010.
Here i constantly complained about poor keeper decisions, leaving the 6, sometimes leaving the entire area, not getting the ball and conceding. Then it happens 3 minutes in in the first WC match. Redeemed by VAR but geez. Guess it's not just 18 to 22 YO kids doing dumb stuff
Quote from: Domino1195 on November 20, 2022, 11:11:11 AM
Here i constantly complained about poor keeper decisions, leaving the 6, sometimes leaving the entire area, not getting the ball and conceding. Then it happens 3 minutes in in the first WC match. Redeemed by VAR but geez. Guess it's not just 18 to 22 YO kids doing dumb stuff
panic!
Does anyone else find the Kenyon announcers annoying? If they are students I'll cut them more slack. But if I hear "ball loose!" one more time . . .
Quote from: Another Mom on November 20, 2022, 01:50:17 PM
Does anyone else find the Kenyon announcers annoying? If they are students I'll cut them more slack. But if I hear "ball loose!" one more time . . .
I'm glad I didn't have to be the one to say it ;D
Quote from: Another Mom on November 20, 2022, 01:50:17 PM
Does anyone else find the Kenyon announcers annoying? If they are students I'll cut them more slack. But if I hear "ball loose!" one more time . . .
They are cheerleaders more than commentators.
Chicago's feed feed is awful today. Seems the camera is in the press box behind glass and it's fogged up really bad. It's also very laggy/choppy. Not sure what's different today, it was fine yesterday.
Quote from: blooter442 on November 19, 2022, 01:00:39 PM
7-1-11 Williams is playing for a spot in the Final 4 tomorrow; the incredulity of the situation and football less synonymous with the golden era Ephs should not detract from the fact that they are in the Elite 8. What a time to be alive.
Update: Said Williams team is currently 7 minutes away from the Final 4.
Mary Washington 3
Bowdoin 2
UMW is going to the Final Four for the first time since 1997.
Williams 1
Kenyon 0
The NESCAC maintains its Final Four streak.
Well I certainly misunderestimated Williams!
I believe it's the reverse...1-0 Kenyon.
Watched the last 15 of Williams Kenyon. Seemed to me like they went into panic mode and forced everything down the far side of the field. Got sloppy at the end from a foul perspective both ways too. Laying dudes out in frustration isn't the way to do it
Quote from: northman on November 20, 2022, 03:05:51 PM
I believe it's the reverse...1-0 Kenyon.
Seemed that was the Amherst announcer misspeaking.
Logically, would have expected Williams to have met its match this weekend. Still, the Ephs made it through a tough sectional round and knocked out the #1 team. At that point, I figured they'd get knocked out either yesterday or today, but the longer the game(s) went on 0-0, the more I felt they were going to sneak one at the other end.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 20, 2022, 03:01:35 PM
Mary Washington 3
Bowdoin 2
UMW is going to the Final Four for the first time since 1997.
Hats off to Mary Washington. They are the real deal, they're not intimidated, and they are deadly on the quick counter. At the end of the day, it didn't help Bowdoin's defending that they were missing NESCAC POY CB Dylan Reid and, in the second half, their reliable starting outside left back Ben Brown. But that's football...you've got to deal with whatever is thrown at you.
The NCAA website had the rosters for Kenyon v. Williams and MW v. Bowdoin mixed up, and hence the scores mixed up. That's probably the cause of confusion.
I understand it worked for them all season long, but it's still curious to me why Kenyon would bring their leading scorer (by far) off the bench
So did the decision makers give to many bids to the NESCAC... just asking as a "in hindsight"?
I don't think so. Was any conference more deserving of additional Pool C spots?
They got it just about right and maybe they could have left 1 out going by the criteria. Doing an "in hindsight" exercise is moronic. They don't pick teams by watching games. They have a set of statistics and criteria to go by.
Given the Commonwealth team bowed out so early that would need to be reviewed also ;D
Great reading comprehension skills!
The bracket on D3 soccer erroneously lists Kenyon as the victor but yes, Williams did indeed pull it out with a tremendous effort goal, beating the keeper to a loose ball. Ephs have given up one goal total in the tournament, which is pretty incredible given the elite caliber of offenses they have faced. Seems like they are facing yet another team that can get goals in bunches given that Mary Washington poured in five goals over two games vs. NESCAC opponents. Should be a fun game - go Ephs!!!
GA is completely outmatched by Chicago. That team is going to be tough to beat.
Feed is out up in Hoboken. Stevens Institute of TECHNOLOGY! C'mon!
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on November 20, 2022, 03:34:39 PM
GA is completely outmatched by Chicago. That team is going to be tough to beat.
It's still only 1-0, so anything could happen, but Chicago has a lot of veterans and they seem to know how to see this one out.
Quote from: Kuiper on November 20, 2022, 03:53:45 PM
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on November 20, 2022, 03:34:39 PM
GA is completely outmatched by Chicago. That team is going to be tough to beat.
It's still only 1-0, so anything could happen, but Chicago has a lot of veterans and they seem to know how to see this one out.
Agreed, but with only 4 shots (1 on goal), they're going to need to generate some more offense to notch it even.
I know it's the wrong board, but I will put in a plug for the Hopkins-Misericordia women's game. Both teams are undefeated - #1 (Mis) vs. #2 (JHU) in a quarterfinal game. 1-0 Hop at half.
Quote from: nescac1 on November 20, 2022, 03:33:37 PMThe bracket on D3 soccer erroneously lists Kenyon as the victor but yes, Williams did indeed pull it out
Can you confirm that it's showing correctly now. As soon as I saw your post I checked and it was showing correct for me. In fact, I input the result personally minutes after the completion of the game and hadn't revisited the bracket until seeing your post. So not sure what may have happened, but want to be sure it's showing correctly for everyone now.
Quote from: Kuiper on November 20, 2022, 03:53:45 PM
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on November 20, 2022, 03:34:39 PM
GA is completely outmatched by Chicago. That team is going to be tough to beat.
It's still only 1-0, so anything could happen, but Chicago has a lot of veterans and they seem to know how to see this one out.
Chicago takes care of business 1-0. Back to the Final Four!
Quote from: Christan Shirk on November 20, 2022, 03:59:26 PM
Quote from: nescac1 on November 20, 2022, 03:33:37 PMThe bracket on D3 soccer erroneously lists Kenyon as the victor but yes, Williams did indeed pull it out
Can you confirm that it's showing correctly now. As soon as I saw your post I checked and it was showing correct for me. In fact, I input the result personally minutes after the completion of the game and hadn't revisited the bracket until seeing your post. So not sure what may have happened, but want to be sure it's showing correctly for everyone now.
Shows correctly for me. Williams 1, Kenyon 0.
Chicago gets the result and doesn't celebrate whatsoever...
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on November 20, 2022, 04:04:24 PM
Chicago gets the result and doesn't celebrate whatsoever...
I noticed that too. Part of it is they are probably exhausted, cold, and want to get inside, but part of it may be the feeling that when you've been to the Final Four last year and lost, you have unfinished business.
Weird. When I go to this link it shows Kenyon as the winner:
https://www.ncaa.com/brackets/soccer-men/d3/2022
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on November 20, 2022, 04:04:24 PM
Chicago gets the result and doesn't celebrate whatsoever...
No time. Gotta hurry up and get back to the library. ;)
(https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.1292769003.1386/raf,750x1000,075,t,fafafa:ca443f4786.u1.jpg)
Quote from: nescac1 on November 20, 2022, 04:07:33 PM
Weird. When I go to this link it shows Kenyon as the winner:
https://www.ncaa.com/brackets/soccer-men/d3/2022
I think Christian was talking about the D3soccer.com bracket, not the NCAA one. The NCAA one was wrong last time I checked.
Congratulations to Williams. I thought they outplayed Kenyon especially in the sense that Ephs did what they wanted to do and Kenyon didn't do what Owls wanted to do. I knew was going to be a very difficult game but did not think there was any way Kenyon wouldn't finally pull one of these out. Brutal, brutal, brutal. I've watched the Kenyon no-goal that was waved off for offsides just a few minutes before Williams scored and I don't see it or maybe just don't understand it....all Kenyon players looked clearly onside when cross coming in left Thesing's foot, then Diffley spills the ball, Kenyon puts it in. Then with five minutes left multiple Kenyon players simultaneously called for a handball in the box that wasn't called so don't know if there was anything there or not. Williams goal comes off restart from over Williams side of the field by GK, Kenyon clears couple of time but Williams able to loft back in, I think Boardman gets a head on it, and Wang pushes the ball in with the side of his foot and ball trickles in reminiscient of Tufts in 2016. Kenyon CB got beat but got just enough pressure on Wang that Pedreschi could have stayed in net and would have collected easily but that's what happens in these games. Still, though, amazing performance by the Williams defense even though I still don't understand how Owls couldn't break them down. Kenyon still had enough chances to win but just didn't get it done. The constant set pieces/deep throws even from 50-60 yards out was tough to watch but kept enough pressure on Kenyon defense to keep them very occupied.
Quote from: nescac1 on November 20, 2022, 04:07:33 PM
Weird. When I go to this link it shows Kenyon as the winner:
https://www.ncaa.com/brackets/soccer-men/d3/2022
I would trust the teams involved and they agree that Williams won 1-0.
https://ephsports.williams.edu/sports/mens-soccer/stats/2022/no-3-kenyon-college/boxscore/11021
https://athletics.kenyon.edu/sports/mens-soccer/stats/2022/williams-college/boxscore/6537
Quote from: Kuiper on November 20, 2022, 04:21:42 PM
Quote from: nescac1 on November 20, 2022, 04:07:33 PM
Weird. When I go to this link it shows Kenyon as the winner:
https://www.ncaa.com/brackets/soccer-men/d3/2022
I would trust the teams involved and they agree that Williams won 1-0.
https://ephsports.williams.edu/sports/mens-soccer/stats/2022/no-3-kenyon-college/boxscore/11021
https://athletics.kenyon.edu/sports/mens-soccer/stats/2022/williams-college/boxscore/6537
The NCAA corrected the brackets and now show Williams is the winner
https://www.ncaa.com/brackets/soccer-men/d3/2022
Quote from: Hopkins Walk-On on November 20, 2022, 04:11:06 PM
Quote from: nescac1 on November 20, 2022, 04:07:33 PM
Weird. When I go to this link it shows Kenyon as the winner:
https://www.ncaa.com/brackets/soccer-men/d3/2022
I think Christian was talking about the D3soccer.com bracket, not the NCAA one. The NCAA one was wrong last time I checked.
Yes, I thought nescac1 was talking about D3soccer.com when he wrote "D3 soccer". So let the record show that D3soccer.com was correct and NCAA.com was wrong!!!!
;D ;)
Anyway, sorry for distracting from discussion of the games/results themselves.
Ducks get level on a 78th minute freebie from 25 yards out.
They're going to overtime in the Garden State. The last five minutes of regulation was great end-to-end soccer, with both JHU and SIT having prime opportunities to put the game on ice.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 20, 2022, 04:16:22 PM
Congratulations to Williams. I thought they outplayed Kenyon especially in the sense that Ephs did what they wanted to do and Kenyon didn't do what Owls wanted to do. I knew was going to be a very difficult game but did not think there was any way Kenyon wouldn't finally pull one of these out. Brutal, brutal, brutal. I've watched the Kenyon no-goal that was waved off for offsides just a few minutes before Williams scored and I don't see it or maybe just don't understand it....all Kenyon players looked clearly onside when cross coming in left Thesing's foot, then Diffley spills the ball, Kenyon puts it in. Then with five minutes left multiple Kenyon players simultaneously called for a handball in the box that wasn't called so don't know if there was anything there or not. Williams goal comes off restart from over Williams side of the field by GK, Kenyon clears couple of time but Williams able to loft back in, I think Boardman gets a head on it, and Wang pushes the ball in with the side of his foot and ball trickles in reminiscient of Tufts in 2016. Kenyon CB got beat but got just enough pressure on Wang that Pedreschi could have stayed in net and would have collected easily but that's what happens in these games. Still, though, amazing performance by the Williams defense even though I still don't understand how Owls couldn't break them down. Kenyon still had enough chances to win but just didn't get it done. The constant set pieces/deep throws even from 50-60 yards out was tough to watch but kept enough pressure on Kenyon defense to keep them very occupied.
Sorry, Paul. I was definitely cheering for you guys. Good on you not to make excuses and give credit where it's due.
Quote from: paclassic89 on November 20, 2022, 03:25:20 PM
They got it just about right and maybe they could have left 1 out going by the criteria. Doing an "in hindsight" exercise is moronic. They don't pick teams by watching games. They have a set of statistics and criteria to go by.
Just a question. No need to get all protective and angry
Quote from: BigSoccerFan on November 20, 2022, 05:12:09 PM
Quote from: paclassic89 on November 20, 2022, 03:25:20 PM
They got it just about right and maybe they could have left 1 out going by the criteria. Doing an "in hindsight" exercise is moronic. They don't pick teams by watching games. They have a set of statistics and criteria to go by.
Just a question. No need to get all protective and angry
I'm not interpreting that as protective and angry. I think PAclassic89 was just stating the facts. Plus, do you change your own opinion now that we all realize Williams is through to the Final Four?
Northman, you got me. I enjoyed reading about your 2010 memories storming Pickard field.
Tough loss for Bowdoin today. It was a great season and a huge step forward. Two seasons ago (2019), Bowdoin had one NESCAC win (Trinity) and didn't make the NESCAC playoffs. The team built on that last season and took another big step this year. It has been a great experience for our son and for us as parents. (I suspect almost all D3 soccer parents feel the same).
Hats off to Mary Washington—they had a great weekend and know how to play. They deserved their two big wins. Their team was unfazed by the Amherst antics yesterday and by the wind and cold today.
You are right—Assistant Coach Banadda has been great and definitely a positive influence on the program.
Our ride is over for this year but we enjoyed it. It has also been great interacting with folks here on the board. Good luck to the survivors!
Yet another game goes to PKs, as the Stevens and Johns Hopkins coaches choose up their five apiece to settle the last remaining Salem berth.
Quote from: Yankeesoccerdad on November 20, 2022, 05:23:34 PM
Northman, you got me. I enjoyed reading about your 2010 memories storming Pickard field.
Tough loss for Bowdoin today. It was a great season and a huge step forward. Two seasons ago (2019), Bowdoin had one NESCAC win (Trinity) and didn't make the NESCAC playoffs. The team built on that last season and took another big step this year. It has been a great experience for our son and for us as parents. (I suspect almost all D3 soccer parents feel the same).
Hats off to Mary Washington—they had a great weekend and know how to play. They deserved their two big wins. Their team was unfazed by the Amherst antics yesterday and by the wind and cold today.
You are right—Assistant Coach Banadda has been great and definitely a positive influence on the program.
Our ride is over for this year but we enjoyed it. It has also been great interacting with folks here on the board. Good luck to the survivors!
Great to hear your story, Yankeesoccerdad. Was your son recruited post arrival of Banadda, or before? At any rate, Bowdoin certainly had their chances today. My older son, who played D1 for Brown, has been following Bowdoin and felt that Bowdoin switched off after they allowed the PK. I tend to agree with that. But all credit to Mary Washingon...they shouldn't be worried about anyone in the Final Four!
Stevens advances in six PK rounds, 5-4. JHU missed the goal completely in its last two shots.
Stevens beats Johns Hopkins on PKs. I think that's the first shootout during the tournament where it was really the shooters missing the goal entirely rather than the GKs saving that determined the outcome. Pretty unusual to have three kicks that didn't even get on target.
[quote author=northman link=topic=9362.msg2063799#msg2063799 date=1668984090
Great to hear your story, Yankeesoccerdad. Was your son recruited post arrival of Banadda, or before? At any rate, Bowdoin certainly had their chances today. My older son, who played D1 for Brown, has been following Bowdoin and felt that Bowdoin switched off after they allowed the PK. I tend to agree with that. But all credit to Mary Washingon...they shouldn't be worried about anyone in the Final Four!
[/quote]
Our son was recruited before.
Your assessment is right. The foul that led to the PK was a soft foul. But the ref was calling soft fouls all day and the players need to adjust. The PK definitely shifted momentum.
The last guy that missed for Hop was pulled out of the top 5 for a reason. Great player, but PKs are in his head right now.
Full credit to the Mighty Ducks. That is a very scrappy, skillful, physical (in a good way) team. Bruno Andino, who I've dubbed the best Jersey name on a Jersey school team (though a few other names jumped out at me today -- Vespucci and Musacchia for example) is a true game winning goal machine. Not that he won the game with today's free kick, but it's the clutch nature of the goals.
Very proud of Hopkins and they should be proud of this run. Hoping they learn the lesson that you don't start trying to kill the game off with 20 minutes left to play. Dude was dribbling to the corner with almost 16 minutes left. That mentality starts to just beg the other team to storm the castle. And, again, full credit to Stevens, they sure took the invitation seriously.
15-2-7 (I guess officially 15-1-8)... Elite 8... Not too shabby.
I'll be rooting for the Mighty Ducks down in Salem. I believe they play Chicago, should be a fascinating match.
Quote from: Kuiper on November 20, 2022, 04:07:12 PM
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on November 20, 2022, 04:04:24 PM
Chicago gets the result and doesn't celebrate whatsoever...
I noticed that too. Part of it is they are probably exhausted, cold, and want to get inside, but part of it may be the feeling that when you've been to the Final Four last year and lost, you have unfinished business.[/b]
The second part definitely. Also today's weather was much more tolerable than yesterday and they had fresher legs than GAC.
Was at the Stevens/Hopkins game. Incredible game, hats off to Hopkins! Class opponents and people. Ducks keep rolling!!!!
Andino, Masur, Mussaccia especially playing at the highest level in D3!!
See y'all in VA!
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 20, 2022, 04:16:22 PM
Congratulations to Williams. I thought they outplayed Kenyon especially in the sense that Ephs did what they wanted to do and Kenyon didn't do what Owls wanted to do. I knew was going to be a very difficult game but did not think there was any way Kenyon wouldn't finally pull one of these out. Brutal, brutal, brutal. I've watched the Kenyon no-goal that was waved off for offsides just a few minutes before Williams scored and I don't see it or maybe just don't understand it....all Kenyon players looked clearly onside when cross coming in left Thesing's foot, then Diffley spills the ball, Kenyon puts it in. Then with five minutes left multiple Kenyon players simultaneously called for a handball in the box that wasn't called so don't know if there was anything there or not. Williams goal comes off restart from over Williams side of the field by GK, Kenyon clears couple of time but Williams able to loft back in, I think Boardman gets a head on it, and Wang pushes the ball in with the side of his foot and ball trickles in reminiscient of Tufts in 2016. Kenyon CB got beat but got just enough pressure on Wang that Pedreschi could have stayed in net and would have collected easily but that's what happens in these games. Still, though, amazing performance by the Williams defense even though I still don't understand how Owls couldn't break them down. Kenyon still had enough chances to win but just didn't get it done. The constant set pieces/deep throws even from 50-60 yards out was tough to watch but kept enough pressure on Kenyon defense to keep them very occupied.
Neither the CR nor AR1 gave a signal for OS. I rewatched the sequence a couple times and the flag never went up. I believe the call was a foul for interfering with the keeper. FWIW.
Congratulations to all 4 teams. Incredible runs for all including Bubble teams Williams and Mary Washington. All are quite worthy but UChicago has to be licking their chops.
During this tournament the NESCAC teams have not dominated quite as much as the last two when they literally did not lose a single game to a non NESCAC team.
However, this tournament shows the incredible depth of the league. Just in the last 3 tournaments you have had 4 different teams in the Final 4. Even more impressive is that in the past two tournaments you have had 6 different teams make an Elite 8.
UChicago got it done again today and really didn't let GAC into the game. The Gusties are a good physical team but their vaunted defense got holes poked into them by the Maroon attackers, who didn't quite finish chances the way they would have liked. GAC's goalie is the real deal and kept UChicago from making it 3-0 with a couple great saves that he made the right anticipation move on. GAC's offense really didn't threaten the Maroons more than twice all game, just couldn't get good touches near the box. Wada and Hu had great games.
The injury bug is the big concern for the Maroons now. Both right backs are dinged up. Moonesinghe was out, and Gomas exited with an injury after absorbing the foul in the box that led to the PK. Lee was kicked in the face or chest and was down for awhile and exited the game.
As noted, UChicago didn't celebrate much after the game. Mostly because this group is not content with just reaching the Final Four, which they already did last year. It's championship or bust for them.
Quote from: northman on November 20, 2022, 05:15:54 PM
Quote from: BigSoccerFan on November 20, 2022, 05:12:09 PM
Quote from: paclassic89 on November 20, 2022, 03:25:20 PM
They got it just about right and maybe they could have left 1 out going by the criteria. Doing an "in hindsight" exercise is moronic. They don't pick teams by watching games. They have a set of statistics and criteria to go by.
Just a question. No need to get all protective and angry
I'm not interpreting that as protective and angry. I think PAclassic89 was just stating the facts. Plus, do you change your own opinion now that we all realize Williams is through to the Final Four?
I have been rooting for Williams all year. I just do not think the NESCAC was a powerhouse conference this year.
No doubt that the NESCAC was off a bit from the prior two years when tremendous players like Giamatti (Amherst) and Calvin Aroh (moved on) but the real strength of the conference is its depth from top to bottom. In the last 3 NCAA tournaments, 6 different programs have been to the elite 8 with two "new" reps this year in Williams and Bowdoin.
A true battle ground each and every game.
Quote from: coach analytics on November 22, 2022, 06:22:30 PM
No doubt that the NESCAC was off a bit from the prior two years when tremendous players like Giamatti (Amherst) and Calvin Aroh (moved on) but the real strength of the conference is its depth from top to bottom. In the last 3 NCAA tournaments, 6 different programs have been to the elite 8 with two "new" reps this year in Williams and Bowdoin.
A true battle ground each and every game.
Thumbs up (since I couldn't find a "thumbs up" emoji...)
Sincere congrats to Mary Washington and Williams...
Seems like a week ago that we were talking about whether an embarrassing loss to Salisbury would be fatal for MW...and like a week ago that most of us felt like our sensibilities had been insulted by Williams even getting a bid.
MW started with an unassuming 1-0 win over Marymount, followed by defeating the D3 with the most NCAA tourney appearances by far, Ohio Wesleyan, to being viewed as the only team in a sectional to have literally no shot, and proceeding to knock out Amherst, at Amherst...and then another NESCAC top-dog, very highly rated Bowdoin.
Williams arguably was fortunate to get by NYU in Rd 1, with the reward being facing the impossible task of surviving #1 huge favorite Messiah on Messiah's home field which they somehow pulled off with the slimmest of margins. Then avoided a major letdown to stay steady through Ohio Northern, and topped all that off by beating a favored Kenyon squad (that had just beaten Calvin and W&L) on their home field when Kenyon as the country's most overdue program to win an Elite 8 game absolutely had to win that game.
Stunning achievements and very well earned spots in the Final 4 where neither seemed imaginable and both doing it was beyond unimaginable.
And one of them will be in the national final.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 25, 2022, 08:21:20 PM
Sincere congrats to Mary Washington and Williams...
Seems like a week ago that we were talking about whether an embarrassing loss to Salisbury would be fatal for MW...and like a week ago that most of us felt like our sensibilities had been insulted by Williams even getting a bid.
MW started with an unassuming 1-0 win over Marymount, followed by defeating the D3 with the most NCAA tourney appearances by far, Ohio Wesleyan, to being viewed as the only team in a sectional to have literally no shot, and proceeding to knock out Amherst, at Amherst...and then another NESCAC top-dog, very highly rated Bowdoin.
Williams arguably was fortunate to get by NYU in Rd 1, with the reward being facing the impossible task of surviving #1 huge favorite Messiah on Messiah's home field which they somehow pulled off with the slimmest of margins. Then avoided a major letdown to stay steady through Ohio Northern, and topped all that off by beating a favored Kenyon squad (that had just beaten Calvin and W&L) on their home field when Kenyon as the country's most overdue program to win an Elite 8 game absolutely had to win that game.
Stunning achievements and very well earned spots in the Final 4 where neither seemed imaginable and both doing it was beyond unimaginable.
And one of them will be in the national final.
IMO, Williams should be favored to win it all. Smells like a team of destiny. They've taken on the best teams in the nation and shut them down.
Quote from: blue_jays on November 25, 2022, 09:06:37 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 25, 2022, 08:21:20 PM
Sincere congrats to Mary Washington and Williams...
Seems like a week ago that we were talking about whether an embarrassing loss to Salisbury would be fatal for MW...and like a week ago that most of us felt like our sensibilities had been insulted by Williams even getting a bid.
MW started with an unassuming 1-0 win over Marymount, followed by defeating the D3 with the most NCAA tourney appearances by far, Ohio Wesleyan, to being viewed as the only team in a sectional to have literally no shot, and proceeding to knock out Amherst, at Amherst...and then another NESCAC top-dog, very highly rated Bowdoin.
Williams arguably was fortunate to get by NYU in Rd 1, with the reward being facing the impossible task of surviving #1 huge favorite Messiah on Messiah's home field which they somehow pulled off with the slimmest of margins. Then avoided a major letdown to stay steady through Ohio Northern, and topped all that off by beating a favored Kenyon squad (that had just beaten Calvin and W&L) on their home field when Kenyon as the country's most overdue program to win an Elite 8 game absolutely had to win that game.
Stunning achievements and very well earned spots in the Final 4 where neither seemed imaginable and both doing it was beyond unimaginable.
And one of them will be in the national final.
IMO, Williams should be favored to win it all. Smells like a team of destiny. They've taken on the best teams in the nation and shut them down.
Maybe I'm just the last holdout, but I'm still not a Williams believer. Mary Washington feels like the perfect team to end their run. MW's ability to score on both Amherst (and their infamous antics) as well as a defensive Bowdoin shows, in my mind, that they have the tools to deal with the Ephs. For the sake of the NESCAC, I hope Williams wins. But every team gets found out eventually. How long can Williams sustain shutouts and set pieces? Two more games? Fewer? It seems like one lucky goal and some game planning for long throws could be enough for MW to play one last Saturday.
And as a closer, I'll say that I've never believed in destiny.
Quote from: NESCAC_Soccer_Fan on November 26, 2022, 12:08:58 AM
Quote from: blue_jays on November 25, 2022, 09:06:37 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 25, 2022, 08:21:20 PM
Sincere congrats to Mary Washington and Williams...
Seems like a week ago that we were talking about whether an embarrassing loss to Salisbury would be fatal for MW...and like a week ago that most of us felt like our sensibilities had been insulted by Williams even getting a bid.
MW started with an unassuming 1-0 win over Marymount, followed by defeating the D3 with the most NCAA tourney appearances by far, Ohio Wesleyan, to being viewed as the only team in a sectional to have literally no shot, and proceeding to knock out Amherst, at Amherst...and then another NESCAC top-dog, very highly rated Bowdoin.
Williams arguably was fortunate to get by NYU in Rd 1, with the reward being facing the impossible task of surviving #1 huge favorite Messiah on Messiah's home field which they somehow pulled off with the slimmest of margins. Then avoided a major letdown to stay steady through Ohio Northern, and topped all that off by beating a favored Kenyon squad (that had just beaten Calvin and W&L) on their home field when Kenyon as the country's most overdue program to win an Elite 8 game absolutely had to win that game.
Stunning achievements and very well earned spots in the Final 4 where neither seemed imaginable and both doing it was beyond unimaginable.
And one of them will be in the national final.
IMO, Williams should be favored to win it all. Smells like a team of destiny. They've taken on the best teams in the nation and shut them down.
Maybe I'm just the last holdout, but I'm still not a Williams believer. Mary Washington feels like the perfect team to end their run. MW's ability to score on both Amherst (and their infamous antics) as well as a defensive Bowdoin shows, in my mind, that they have the tools to deal with the Ephs. For the sake of the NESCAC, I hope Williams wins. But every team gets found out eventually. How long can Williams sustain shutouts and set pieces? Two more games? Fewer? It seems like one lucky goal and some game planning for long throws could be enough for MW to play one last Saturday.
And as a closer, I'll say that I've never believed in destiny.
I've been wondering about Mary Washington and whether they are for real. They looked really good in some of the tournament action I've seen, especially against Amherst's high press, but they've had some odd results too. Losing to Cortland, Hopkins, and Christopher Newport (who they later beat) is nothing to hang your head about, but they not only had that bad loss to Salisbury (who finished 5-12-2), but also a 5-3 win against Salisbury a couple of weeks earlier where they were down 2-0 before roaring back. They also had ties against Lynchburg, which is a respectable result, and Stevenson, which is less so even though they played some teams tough (5-10-5). Sometimes that happens, either because a team lets its guard down against inferior opponents (plays down to them) or because familiarity allows the other team to adapt tactically. It's also possible a team just gets hot around tournament time.
Anyone have any thoughts about how some teams, including a weaker team like Salisbury, have given them fits, but they look so good against others? Are there types of teams that are more difficult for them? Were key players missing/injured? One thing I noticed is that MW's leading scorer, Josh Kirkland, scored 18 goals and had 3 assists this season, but he didn't have a single goal or assist in any of their losses or ties (until the Amherst game, assuming that counts as a tie). He never had more than 2 shots in any of those losses/ties. Are teams who have success against MW simply marking Kirkland out of the game? Carter Berg, their second leading scorer with 10 goals and 5 assists, scored in one of the later losses and one of the later ties, but otherwise was also kept off the score sheet in those ties/losses. Similarly, Nelsar Castillo, their diminutive CM who seems to be the metronome who keys their short passing game, didn't start and/or play in the early season losses to Cortland and Christopher Newport or in the ties to Lynchburg and Stevenson. Has he been the key to turning things around? If marking those three out of the game is the key, it will be interesting to see how Williams approaches the task since their coaches/players have certainly had enough time to study and prepare for them.
Quote from: Kuiper on November 26, 2022, 12:53:18 AM
Anyone have any thoughts about how some teams, including a weaker team like Salisbury, have given them fits, but they look so good against others? Are there types of teams that are more difficult for them?
I've been thinking about this a bit Kuiper, I think it's the nature of D3. The game is that less mechanical at this level and that's not a criticism, but is about the difference between D1 which practices all year round and D3 where the balance means that game plans are exercised with that bit less precision, which means that no matter how good we might think some teams are and whatever the rankings say, in one off games, anyone can lose, especially if a game goes to penalties. I reckon that we may be (about to get controversial here) ascribe much greater powers to teams than what they actually possess in reality. If the final four had been instead all the teams that lost in the elite eight, we would have been discussing them in similar terms, three of those games were a one goal margin and one went to penalties. If it had been Gustavus Adolphus, Kenyon, Johns Hopkins and Bowdoin that have won instead, we would probably be waxing lyrically about the powers they possess and possible senses of destiny etc. I think this division is much more even than we give it credit for. That's the real thrill of it for me...
(modified by GS for formatting)
To EnmoreCat's point I think so many of these games could have gone either way. Injuries are part of the game but there is no question Bowdoin was hurt by injuries to two key defenders, one of whom was NESCAC POY. Hard to recover from that especially with no time to prepare an alternative game plan.
As for Williams, its last seven games, all of which have come against D3 soccer powers (including winners of 17 of the past 18 titles, just a crazy statistic; Amherst, which Williams tied earlier in the year, is the other winner) have all been ties or one goal games, with three decided by PKs. That shows that Williams can compete with anyone. It also shows that Williams lacks the finishing touch (especially after losing Felitto to injury) to put away very good teams like MW.
In the end, what that means is I'd be surprised if either team scored more than once today and I expect a toss-up game that likely comes down to one mistake or bit of good fortunate. Will be hard to draw broad thematic conclusions if that is how it goes, other than to just applaud both teams and shrug.
That being said, go Ephs! (And if they lose, go UChicago, my other alma mater :)).
(As an extremely biased fan) Hoping to see an exciting game today between Stevens and Chicago! The biggest game for Stevens in over a decade, with their last Final4 appearance (2008) leading to a national runner-up finish vs Messiah. That national final went to penalties, and if today's game goes to penalties, my heart might just hit 500 bpm.
Chicago is the definition of pedigree, making 4 of the last 5 final4s, an undefeated season, and a style of soccer that has dominated Division 3 for the past decade. Have only ever watched 2 Chicago games, today marks my third ever.
Proud of the Ducks no matter what happens, they've had an incredible year, with all the Seniors and Graduate students playing a massive role in the journey. Will be driving down to Roanoake to watch the final if the Ducks win today. For a lot of us, I'm sure a win for the USMNT on Saturday followed with a D3 national championship would go down as one of the most memorable days of our lives.
GO DUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
One factor for Mary Washington that hasn't been mentioned (perhaps because it doesn't mean much, if anything) is that they are playing pretty close to home in the Final Four, relatively speaking. Not only is Salem only a few hours away from MW, and certainly closer to them than any of the other Final Four schools, but MW plays Roanoke regularly and played in Salem this year. So, they have some familiarity with the field and surroundings. Like I said, it may not mean much, but it could be a slight benefit.
Stevens pressing Chicago very high and speeding them up a bit, but Chicago still able to play through for the most part.
By the way, in the "this may only interest me dept," I just realized that Chicago is playing on a field with "maroons" plastered all over it and on the press box, which must make them feel at home. I didn't know Roanoke was also the Maroons (but with some kind of a bird mascot, not that unlike Chicago's Phoenix logo).
0-0 at end of first OT. Chicago has outshot Stevens 15 (4 on goal) - 3 (1 on goal), but couldn't manage to poke through. Yetishefsky is getting service in the box with 4 players surrounding him.
Stevens with 6 in the back looks like in OT. Withstood an absolute barrage over the last 20 of regular time.
Chicago has clearly had the more forward movement, but they've only played 3 subs all game and Stevens has had 9 subs (although only 6 with significant time). We'll see if that affects things in 2OT, but Chicago still pushing
I sense yet another Chicago heartbreak coming...
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on December 01, 2022, 03:24:54 PM
I sense yet another Chicago heartbreak coming...
Maybe not! Yetishesfky with a header goal! 1-0 Chicago. 3:15 to go in 2OT
Chicago wins 1-0 to advance to the Finals. Stevens had injuries that hampered them offensively and led them to play uber-defensively and Chicago finally broke through. Finally gets to the Championship Game.
Mary Washington and Williams are 0-0 midway through the half, but MW might be in trouble if Gadsoni Abel, their CM #10, is out for the game. He just left the field with his arm hanging from the side.
UPDATE: 0-0 at half. Mary Washington has had several beautiful opportunities in the box and has had the Williams defenders chasing ghosts at times with moments of individual skill, while Williams keeps lumping the ball into the MW box and hoping. MW's GK, Hemmendinger, though, is going to let one of those in if he's not careful. He's been very aggressive coming off his line to attack those balls in the 18, but he's had a few where he dropped the ball or failed on the clearance. Williams has guys in the box, especially on corners or free kicks, who can pounce on any mistakes he makes. They got bailed out on one when the Williams striker had an open net and put it over the crossbar (although the ref may have called a foul on Williams anyway).
Oddly, while Abel was very noticeable making a positive impact for MW before his unfortunate injury, MW seemed to pick up its overall level of play after he left the game. Williams I thought controlled the first 30 minutes but MW was the far more dangerous team in the last 15 minutes and had two very dangerous chances where they just couldn't get enough on the shots. In the end, neither team had many good chances overall. As expected, this game likely comes down to whoever can poach an opportunistic goal, probably on a counter, as these two teams are very evenly matched.
Williams' aggression and tireless running from a deep squad is its trademark, but late in the half MW used that against Williams a bit, beating guys who were running crazily hard at the ball with some nice touches. Williams needs to do a bit less chasing and calm down, and play more the way it played in the first 30 minutes when it controlled the ball better and was more poised overall.
MW's goalie is very aggressive coming off his line so Williams may have a chance to chip one over. The Ephs have had a lot of passes into the box but none really are connecting at all for good chances.
Williams scores a header on a great pass in the air across the box. 1-0 with 9:48 left. Not sure Mary Washington is going to have enough time to break down a determined Williams' defense holding onto a 1-0 lead.
UPDATE: MW isn't done. Williams just saved a goal with a defensive header off the goal line.
Williams makes it to the championship. SC won't be happy!
Chicago-Williams on Saturday for all the DIII Men's Soccer marbles.
What's the plan for the hat eating? Pay per view?
Congrats to the Ephs on a well-earned 1-0 win. Williams played well the entire second half and certainly earned the victory. How appropriate that the winning goal came from Gara Grady to Boardman, who have been the defensive heroes throughout this run, a perfect service and clinical finish. The other play of the game came from David Wang (I think) who had an incredible header to save a goal on a shot that had gotten past the Ephs' goalie and was surely going in. Wang was all over the field all game and was certainly one of the Ephs' MVPs on the day, even before that game saving play.
The U.S. World Cup Team could learn something from Williams about how to kill the clock up one with five minutes left. The Ephs did a great job of controlling the ball deep in MW territory and wasting every possible second in the process. Also, what a relief, no injury time -- it certainly was not missed from a viewing perspective!
Hopefully the Ephs can carry through tomorrow and keep playing well vs. a favored UChicago squad!
Dave McHugh wanted to go back to get another look at that possible handball in the box by Williams in the final two minutes, but the production crew never replayed it. Both he and Ira Thor reacted as though they had seen a handball, but from that angle and distance you couldn't really tell conclusively without a replay from an alternate camera.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 01, 2022, 06:31:29 PM
Dave McHugh wanted to go back to get another look at that possible handball in the box by Williams in the final two minutes, but the production crew never replayed it. Both he and Ira Thor reacted as though they had seen a handball, but from that angle and distance you couldn't really tell conclusively without a replay from an alternate camera.
He (and/or his partner) seemed pretty sure of it too, but I agree that it was hard to tell from the stream.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 01, 2022, 06:31:29 PM
Dave McHugh wanted to go back to get another look at that possible handball in the box by Williams in the final two minutes, but the production crew never replayed it. Both he and Ira Thor reacted as though they had seen a handball, but from that angle and distance you couldn't really tell conclusively without a replay from an alternate camera.
I went back on the video several times, and it sure looked like the defender opened up his arms (making himself bigger) and caught that ball with his right hand when the MW player ducked. No intentional by any means, but a handling offense nonetheless. Tough to call that in that situation, and the act by the MW player to bend over really put the ball in a difficult spot for the defender, but that's why you get the whistle in the Final Four.
Sure wish we had better angles on the video.
I know two things of this game.
1. That was a handball 7 days a week. SP2 and I were right in the corner on that side and both called it when it happened.
2. After deep analysis of the Williams tactical execution of their game plan ... I can confirm that Williams is where soccer goes to die.
Watching in real time on a small screen I can't really opine fairly on the hand ball. It certainly looked like a call that could have gone against the Ephs ... very tough to make that call on a clearly unintentional play in that situation, but at the same time, the Ephs seemed to be fortunate that wasn't called -- although as many teams can testify, a PK vs. Diffley is far from a sure thing in any event.
Here is a video of the beautiful game-winner from the Ephs:
https://twitter.com/CoachMacQuarrie/status/1598456291206258690?s=20&t=Wnsbbe8ahNB0_4I1A-bGpQ
Where soccer goes to die or no, Williams is in the midst of a pretty incredible run of victories (and one tie) against a brutal series of opponents, so they have more than earned their spot in the title game. And I'm sure they won't mind one more game where no one believes in them going into the contest.
Chicago is a heavy favorite but i've already come to terms with the fact that Williams will probably win the national title in PKs by running 21 players into the ground every game ;D
Quote from: paclassic89 on December 01, 2022, 07:24:58 PM
Chicago is a heavy favorite but i've already come to terms with the fact that Williams will probably win the national title in PKs by running 21 players into the ground every game ;D
Chicago is the favorite, but Williams has already proven against Messiah, Kenyon, Mary Washington etc that it can frustrate teams that like to possess. I think Chicago's defense, experience, and size present obstacles that Williams didn't face with Mary Washington, but I definitely wouldn't count out Williams.
If soccer goes to die at Williams, then what happens at all these schools that have lost to them in the tournament? The way I see it, Soccer is a game, played over 90 (or 110) minutes, where the team that scores more goals wins. Seems like Williams is doing a great job executing their gameplan and the results speak for themselves.
Quote from: Footballfan37 on December 01, 2022, 07:52:19 PM
If soccer goes to die at Williams, then what happens at all these schools that have lost to them in the tournament? The way I see it, Soccer is a game, played over 90 (or 110) minutes, where the team that scores more goals wins. Seems like Williams is doing a great job executing their gameplan and the results speak for themselves.
I'm reminded of something that Bill Mazeroski is supposed to have said to Steve Blass, when he drew Sandy Koufax as the opposing pitcher: "Shut 'em out, and we'll play for a tie."
I agree that Williams is where soccer goes to die.
I'm a neutral but I've watched Williams a few times this year. Williams is not a team to hate. They have proven that Williams is where other teams go to die. Frankly, they have overachieved and should be ecstatic about their season. Chicago may prove to be a different opponent. Chicago is stout and are pleasing to the eye. But here is to a great game for both teams and for all the other neutrals out there.
Williams can be congratulated for a truly remarkable run that now almost feels destined while also being critiqued for style of play. It's very easy to describe the offense as cynical, especially for those of us whose teams are out at the hoofs of the Ephs, but there's no getting around the defense which hasn't conceded to multiple high powered teams since allowing a questionable PK call and Arkan T PK goal in the 1st round. Four straight shutouts...and against four pretty decent squads.
The versatility of Boardman could not be better honored than @Kuiper referring to him as the Williams striker. He is in six places at once...you think he's marking Kirkland or Berg, but then he's heading a ball in the midfield, and heading balls around the box, before eventually making a deep run into the back post for a clinically perfect finish. I couldn't tell you much at all about what makes him so good, but the number of winning, game-determining plays he makes is astounding (goal today, assist and clear off the line vs Kenyon, etc).
And despite or in addition to the coach being the architect of a very unattractive strategy, he appears like he has some magical glow around him at least for this run, very similar to an impression Burk gave off in Conn's run last year. He looks like he is in "a zone" or "flow"....so make that a flowzone.
As a wise man once said, good fortune does play a role. Williams, consecutively, has won a 50/50 game, a 40/60 game, a 60/40 game, and two more 50/50s...
All that said, the ride ends here...
Chicago 2 (maybe 3), Williams 0
As for hats and bulletin board awards, any hat eaters also deserve a ring (if Williams prevails), and SC and myself should at least get Final Four programs signed by the entire Williams roster and coaching staff.
As a semi-neutral, also would have been interesting to see Williams play down a goal. They never trailed in any of their five games. Kirkland buries that shot he scuffed 9 out of 10 times...another item for the good fortune pile. Getting ahead was huge for MW versus Amherst and Bowdoin.
Also congrats to Chicago and Stevens. The Ducks took a better team to within 3-4 minutes of PKs...and with Andino and Silva missing for a good chunk of the game. Stevens definitely lived up to how highly they were rated most of the season. And very impressed that Chicago at least outwardly kept their cool as the game wore on. They had to be frustrated and at risk for having flashbacks of a bad ending.
Quote from: FBALLISLIFE on December 01, 2022, 06:37:38 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 01, 2022, 06:31:29 PM
Dave McHugh wanted to go back to get another look at that possible handball in the box by Williams in the final two minutes, but the production crew never replayed it. Both he and Ira Thor reacted as though they had seen a handball, but from that angle and distance you couldn't really tell conclusively without a replay from an alternate camera.
that's why you get the whistle in the Final Four.
And in my personal opinion, going back to the phantom red card against Kutsanzira in 2021, two Final Fours in a row marred by poor referee decisions in game critical moments.
Quote from: paclassic89 on December 01, 2022, 07:24:58 PM
Chicago is a heavy favorite but i've already come to terms with the fact that Williams will probably win the national title in PKs by running 21 players into the ground every game ;D
No one is a heavy favorite in this championship game. Yes, UChicago plays a more attractive brand of futbol. But Williams is on a heater like I've never seen, winning ugly or not. That defense has proven impregnable. I think it will be a toss up and likely PKs.
So williams played in the final in 93 and lost and climbed the mountain in 1995. They are former Champions and that is a big deal. They will be attempting to capture their 2nd title, something very few programs like Wheaton, Tufts, Messiah, OhionWeslyan. Many programs haven1 but Williams will be going for rarified air. I am.sure the boys from 95 are on pins and needles.
Quote from: Footballfan37 on December 01, 2022, 07:52:19 PM
If soccer goes to die at Williams, then what happens at all these schools that have lost to them in the tournament? The way I see it, Soccer is a game, played over 90 (or 110) minutes, where the team that scores more goals wins. Seems like Williams is doing a great job executing their gameplan and the results speak for themselves.
Nothing happens to the teams that "lost". They still lost. And Williams plays a dismal game to watch. And they are still in the championship.
SC.
These look doable....
https://www.etsy.com/listing/205677557/12-spring-tea-party-hats-cupcake-toppers?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=edible+hat&ref=sc_gallery-1-4&edd=1&sts=1&plkey=244396654a116cdca69bb223ef7eaa07319f601b%3A205677557
Felt really bad for MW #18 Luwis who got beat by Boardman towards the back post especially because up to that point I thought he had been the best player on the pitch on the day.
Quote from: SimpleCoach on December 01, 2022, 07:01:52 PM
2. After deep analysis of the Williams tactical execution of their game plan ... I can confirm that Williams is where soccer goes to die.
Having equated Siebert's Springfield to Stoke City, I am completely unsurprised that he has morphed Williams into the same style. Somewhat ironic, given their more progressive style for years under Russo.
Still, if Siebert wins tomorrow, he won't care one bit. I am inclined to think Chicago is the favorite, but I have a strong 2007-08 New York Giants vibe about the Ephs.
Quote from: FBALLISLIFE on December 01, 2022, 06:37:38 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 01, 2022, 06:31:29 PM
Dave McHugh wanted to go back to get another look at that possible handball in the box by Williams in the final two minutes, but the production crew never replayed it. Both he and Ira Thor reacted as though they had seen a handball, but from that angle and distance you couldn't really tell conclusively without a replay from an alternate camera.
I went back on the video several times, and it sure looked like the defender opened up his arms (making himself bigger) and caught that ball with his right hand when the MW player ducked. No intentional by any means, but a handling offense nonetheless. Tough to call that in that situation, and the act by the MW player to bend over really put the ball in a difficult spot for the defender, but that's why you get the whistle in the Final Four.
Sure wish we had better angles on the video.
As a neutral party calling the games, I truly felt what we saw was a handball. While I know it's a tough call for an official to make in that spot, if that's a handball in the 8th minute, then it is a handball in the 89th minute. I stand by what I said.
With that said, the Chicago/Stevens game was by far the better of the two and you would think that Chicago is the favored team heading into the finals. But Dr. Siebert's team seemingly always finds a way. It's almost like they have the cheat codes for the video game. They are the aggressor when they need to be but they don't put themselves in peril with poor decisions. They completely took Josh Kirkland out of the game and as good as Carter Berg was for UMW (and I think he's the better of the two players IMO), the Williams back 3 or 4 was better.
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 02, 2022, 09:47:38 AM
Felt really bad for MW #18 Luwis who got beat by Boardman towards the back post especially because up to that point I thought he had been the best player on the pitch on the day.
# 18 Luwis also played great against Amherst and Bowdoin two weeks ago. Smart player, always in the right place and very fast.
Quote from: Falconer on December 01, 2022, 08:06:54 PM
Quote from: Footballfan37 on December 01, 2022, 07:52:19 PM
If soccer goes to die at Williams, then what happens at all these schools that have lost to them in the tournament? The way I see it, Soccer is a game, played over 90 (or 110) minutes, where the team that scores more goals wins. Seems like Williams is doing a great job executing their gameplan and the results speak for themselves.
I'm reminded of something that Bill Mazeroski is supposed to have said to Steve Blass, when he drew Sandy Koufax as the opposing pitcher: "Shut 'em out, and we'll play for a tie."
I agree that Williams is where soccer goes to die.
I think that what was curious about yesterday's game was that during the first 15-20 minutes of the first half Williams showed that they have the players to actually play a prettier game. Not sure why SS has opted to play this way this season but with one game in left in the season, hard pressed to see him making any changes. It'll be interesting to see how Chicago responds.
Quote from: Yankeesoccerdad on December 02, 2022, 12:29:55 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 02, 2022, 09:47:38 AM
Felt really bad for MW #18 Luwis who got beat by Boardman towards the back post especially because up to that point I thought he had been the best player on the pitch on the day.
# 18 Luwis also played great against Amherst and Bowdoin two weeks ago. Smart player, always in the right place and very fast.
Yes, with the exception of the ball Kirkland scuffed five yards in front of the net I thought Luwis had the best chances for MW. He made a run with the ball across the 18 and nearly curled a beautiful shot into the top right corner that went just high. He also won a ton of balls all over the field.
I give a ton of credit to Boardman. He's very hard to keep track of even knowing to look out for him.
Quote from: pittsfieldpete on December 02, 2022, 12:39:22 PM
Quote from: Falconer on December 01, 2022, 08:06:54 PM
Quote from: Footballfan37 on December 01, 2022, 07:52:19 PM
If soccer goes to die at Williams, then what happens at all these schools that have lost to them in the tournament? The way I see it, Soccer is a game, played over 90 (or 110) minutes, where the team that scores more goals wins. Seems like Williams is doing a great job executing their gameplan and the results speak for themselves.
I'm reminded of something that Bill Mazeroski is supposed to have said to Steve Blass, when he drew Sandy Koufax as the opposing pitcher: "Shut 'em out, and we'll play for a tie."
I agree that Williams is where soccer goes to die.
I think that what was curious about yesterday's game was that during the first 15-20 minutes of the first half Williams showed that they have the players to actually play a prettier game. Not sure why SS has opted to play this way this season but with one game in left in the season, hard pressed to see him making any changes. It'll be interesting to see how Chicago responds.
Good observation. I thought Williams in the first 20 minutes came out and played with a more overtly offensive posture. And even though I am highly critical of the style in general, I chalk this up to another really smart move by Siebert. I'm guessing he thought MW would anticipate the Ephs playing how they did against Messiah and Kenyon and 1) was more confident that Williams could score on a MW team that has given up a lot of goals; and 2) he figured they could surprise MW with an early goal that would put MW in a really bad position especially given that quick starts by MW played a big role in their success with Amherst and Bowdoin. In the early going, the MW GK also had some very nervy moments, including at least twice trying to juke Ephs right around his own six.
Quote from: irapthor on December 02, 2022, 11:20:35 AM
Quote from: FBALLISLIFE on December 01, 2022, 06:37:38 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 01, 2022, 06:31:29 PM
Dave McHugh wanted to go back to get another look at that possible handball in the box by Williams in the final two minutes, but the production crew never replayed it. Both he and Ira Thor reacted as though they had seen a handball, but from that angle and distance you couldn't really tell conclusively without a replay from an alternate camera.
I went back on the video several times, and it sure looked like the defender opened up his arms (making himself bigger) and caught that ball with his right hand when the MW player ducked. No intentional by any means, but a handling offense nonetheless. Tough to call that in that situation, and the act by the MW player to bend over really put the ball in a difficult spot for the defender, but that's why you get the whistle in the Final Four.
Sure wish we had better angles on the video.
As a neutral party calling the games, I truly felt what we saw was a handball. While I know it's a tough call for an official to make in that spot, if that's a handball in the 8th minute, then it is a handball in the 89th minute. I stand by what I said.
With that said, the Chicago/Stevens game was by far the better of the two and you would think that Chicago is the favored team heading into the finals. But Dr. Siebert's team seemingly always finds a way. It's almost like they have the cheat codes for the video game. They are the aggressor when they need to be but they don't put themselves in peril with poor decisions. They completely took Josh Kirkland out of the game and as good as Carter Berg was for UMW (and I think he's the better of the two players IMO), the Williams back 3 or 4 was better.
Without having watched either game live, I just checked out the highlights on NCAA.com and saw the hand ball. Without having any other context, my immediate impression was that it should have been a penalty. However, without VAR in collegiate soccer...what can you do?
Quote from: northman on December 02, 2022, 03:12:26 PM
Quote from: irapthor on December 02, 2022, 11:20:35 AM
Quote from: FBALLISLIFE on December 01, 2022, 06:37:38 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 01, 2022, 06:31:29 PM
Dave McHugh wanted to go back to get another look at that possible handball in the box by Williams in the final two minutes, but the production crew never replayed it. Both he and Ira Thor reacted as though they had seen a handball, but from that angle and distance you couldn't really tell conclusively without a replay from an alternate camera.
I went back on the video several times, and it sure looked like the defender opened up his arms (making himself bigger) and caught that ball with his right hand when the MW player ducked. No intentional by any means, but a handling offense nonetheless. Tough to call that in that situation, and the act by the MW player to bend over really put the ball in a difficult spot for the defender, but that's why you get the whistle in the Final Four.
Sure wish we had better angles on the video.
As a neutral party calling the games, I truly felt what we saw was a handball. While I know it's a tough call for an official to make in that spot, if that's a handball in the 8th minute, then it is a handball in the 89th minute. I stand by what I said.
With that said, the Chicago/Stevens game was by far the better of the two and you would think that Chicago is the favored team heading into the finals. But Dr. Siebert's team seemingly always finds a way. It's almost like they have the cheat codes for the video game. They are the aggressor when they need to be but they don't put themselves in peril with poor decisions. They completely took Josh Kirkland out of the game and as good as Carter Berg was for UMW (and I think he's the better of the two players IMO), the Williams back 3 or 4 was better.
Without having watched either game live, I just checked out the highlights on NCAA.com and saw the hand ball. Without having any other context, my immediate impression was that it should have been a penalty. However, without VAR in collegiate soccer...what can you do?
Definite penalty, ref was too scared to call it, no other explanation. Mary Washington will be salty about that non-call for the rest of recorded time, as they should be.
Here is the video. it took a couple of minutes to find so thought folks would like the link.
https://www.ncaa.com/video/soccer-men/2022-12-01/diii-mens-soccer-2022-semifinal-recap
Definite handball. He instinctively tucks in his arm afterward to act like nothing happened.
It seemed like the refs were reluctant to call fouls in either game yesterday, while in the prior tournament games I saw this year soft fouls (at least relative to NESCAC standards) were consistently called fouls.
Yep. Definitely a handball. Slowing down the replay really made the difference.
Quote from: pittsfieldpete on December 02, 2022, 12:39:22 PM
Quote from: Falconer on December 01, 2022, 08:06:54 PM
Quote from: Footballfan37 on December 01, 2022, 07:52:19 PM
If soccer goes to die at Williams, then what happens at all these schools that have lost to them in the tournament? The way I see it, Soccer is a game, played over 90 (or 110) minutes, where the team that scores more goals wins. Seems like Williams is doing a great job executing their gameplan and the results speak for themselves.
I'm reminded of something that Bill Mazeroski is supposed to have said to Steve Blass, when he drew Sandy Koufax as the opposing pitcher: "Shut 'em out, and we'll play for a tie."
I agree that Williams is where soccer goes to die.
I think that what was curious about yesterday's game was that during the first 15-20 minutes of the first half Williams showed that they have the players to actually play a prettier game. Not sure why SS has opted to play this way this season but with one game in left in the season, hard pressed to see him making any changes. It'll be interesting to see how Chicago responds.
This.
You have captured why I despise teams who play Neanderthal Ball. It's not that they play this way, it's that they don't have to. It's a choice, a coach's choice not a lack of talent. Which is why if I am a talented player, forgetting the whole school thing .... I wouldn't go to Williams. Why? So I can learn to kick the ball real hard? So at my best I am trying to create chaos?
And now for my undiplomatic observations ...
Congratulations to them if they win. You did everything you needed to do to lift the trophy. Thats the nature of these things. And am ok with that. It would be boring if every team played the same way. But as a soccer player and a coach, I would be embarrassed with how we went about winning. Right or wrong, that still matters to me. The How.
So if I have to lose, at least I know that my bench wasn't celebrating tackles that could leave the opponent with a busted ankle. Or cheer because I cleared the ball out of bounds. So that if I have to lose, I know that I tried to play better soccer than you, not because I was able to destroy whatever semblance of a game that was trying to be played.
Nonetheless I fully expect Williams to rightly celebrate if they beat Chicago tomorrow. It something you may never experience again. But know that at least for this observer, there is nothing remarkable about what you do on the field. And if I have a chance to watch Williams play the Williams way
OR perform a root canal on myself without any Novocain and using only industrial drills and tools available at a Lowes or Home Depot, the choice is clear to me.
I get all sorts of mad award points when I spend money at Lowes ...
I am done with this subject and look forward to finding out who the next National Champion will be.
SC.
Quote from: SimpleCoach on December 02, 2022, 05:41:59 PM
Quote from: pittsfieldpete on December 02, 2022, 12:39:22 PM
Quote from: Falconer on December 01, 2022, 08:06:54 PM
Quote from: Footballfan37 on December 01, 2022, 07:52:19 PM
If soccer goes to die at Williams, then what happens at all these schools that have lost to them in the tournament? The way I see it, Soccer is a game, played over 90 (or 110) minutes, where the team that scores more goals wins. Seems like Williams is doing a great job executing their gameplan and the results speak for themselves.
I'm reminded of something that Bill Mazeroski is supposed to have said to Steve Blass, when he drew Sandy Koufax as the opposing pitcher: "Shut 'em out, and we'll play for a tie."
I agree that Williams is where soccer goes to die.
I think that what was curious about yesterday's game was that during the first 15-20 minutes of the first half Williams showed that they have the players to actually play a prettier game. Not sure why SS has opted to play this way this season but with one game in left in the season, hard pressed to see him making any changes. It'll be interesting to see how Chicago responds.
This.
You have captured why I despise teams who play Neanderthal Ball. It's not that they play this way, it's that they don't have to. It's a choice, a coach's choice not a lack of talent. Which is why if I am a talented player, forgetting the whole school thing .... I wouldn't go to Williams. Why? So I can learn to kick the ball real hard? So at my best I am trying to create chaos?
And now for my undiplomatic observations ...
Congratulations to them if they win. You did everything you needed to do to lift the trophy. Thats the nature of these things. And am ok with that. It would be boring if every team played the same way. But as a soccer player and a coach, I would be embarrassed with how we went about winning. Right or wrong, that still matters to me. The How.
So if I have to lose, at least I know that my bench wasn't celebrating tackles that could leave the opponent with a busted ankle. Or cheer because I cleared the ball out of bounds. So that if I have to lose, I know that I tried to play better soccer than you, not because I was able to destroy whatever semblance of a game that was trying to be played.
Nonetheless I fully expect Williams to rightly celebrate if they beat Chicago tomorrow. It something you may never experience again. But know that at least for this observer, there is nothing remarkable about what you do on the field. And if I have a chance to watch Williams play the Williams way OR perform a root canal on myself without any Novocain and using only industrial drills and tools available at a Lowes or Home Depot, the choice is clear to me.
I get all sorts of mad award points when I spend money at Lowes ...
I am done with this subject and look forward to finding out who the next National Champion will be.
SC.
Of course Williams, and Amherst, and many others have the talent to play the beautiful game beautifully. But the ultimate goal is to win a championship, and given the rules of D3 soccer, teams that play direct and physical will often fare better - especially if they have players who can also contribute a possession skillset (i.e. good first touch, vision, off ball movement, etc.).
I've said it a million times - no 50yr old soccer player will ever look back at his youth/college experience and say fondly "I never won anything, but man did we move the ball well".
Quote from: Ejay on December 02, 2022, 05:57:47 PM
Quote from: SimpleCoach on December 02, 2022, 05:41:59 PM
Quote from: pittsfieldpete on December 02, 2022, 12:39:22 PM
Quote from: Falconer on December 01, 2022, 08:06:54 PM
Quote from: Footballfan37 on December 01, 2022, 07:52:19 PM
If soccer goes to die at Williams, then what happens at all these schools that have lost to them in the tournament? The way I see it, Soccer is a game, played over 90 (or 110) minutes, where the team that scores more goals wins. Seems like Williams is doing a great job executing their gameplan and the results speak for themselves.
I'm reminded of something that Bill Mazeroski is supposed to have said to Steve Blass, when he drew Sandy Koufax as the opposing pitcher: "Shut 'em out, and we'll play for a tie."
I agree that Williams is where soccer goes to die.
I think that what was curious about yesterday's game was that during the first 15-20 minutes of the first half Williams showed that they have the players to actually play a prettier game. Not sure why SS has opted to play this way this season but with one game in left in the season, hard pressed to see him making any changes. It'll be interesting to see how Chicago responds.
This.
You have captured why I despise teams who play Neanderthal Ball. It's not that they play this way, it's that they don't have to. It's a choice, a coach's choice not a lack of talent. Which is why if I am a talented player, forgetting the whole school thing .... I wouldn't go to Williams. Why? So I can learn to kick the ball real hard? So at my best I am trying to create chaos?
And now for my undiplomatic observations ...
Congratulations to them if they win. You did everything you needed to do to lift the trophy. Thats the nature of these things. And am ok with that. It would be boring if every team played the same way. But as a soccer player and a coach, I would be embarrassed with how we went about winning. Right or wrong, that still matters to me. The How.
So if I have to lose, at least I know that my bench wasn't celebrating tackles that could leave the opponent with a busted ankle. Or cheer because I cleared the ball out of bounds. So that if I have to lose, I know that I tried to play better soccer than you, not because I was able to destroy whatever semblance of a game that was trying to be played.
Nonetheless I fully expect Williams to rightly celebrate if they beat Chicago tomorrow. It something you may never experience again. But know that at least for this observer, there is nothing remarkable about what you do on the field. And if I have a chance to watch Williams play the Williams way OR perform a root canal on myself without any Novocain and using only industrial drills and tools available at a Lowes or Home Depot, the choice is clear to me.
I get all sorts of mad award points when I spend money at Lowes ...
I am done with this subject and look forward to finding out who the next National Champion will be.
SC.
Of course Williams, and Amherst, and many others have the talent to play the beautiful game beautifully. But the ultimate goal is to win a championship, and given the rules of D3 soccer, teams that play direct and physical will often fare better - especially if they have players who can also contribute a possession skillset (i.e. good first touch, vision, off ball movement, etc.).
I've said it a million times - no 50yr old soccer player will ever look back at his youth/college experience and say fondly "I never won anything, but man did we move the ball well".
The ideal is to be able to say both :)
Btw, loving retirement lol.
Since we're analyzing calls and non-calls, I'd appreciate someone who is good with video taking a look at a couple of plays...
First one is a Kenyon goal called back and play begins with around 12:25 left in 2nd half with game still 0-0 (on video comes around 1:57 mark). Domino correctly has noted that the AR never raised his flag even though box score play by play and recaps say offsides. Now seems like center ref must have called a foul because I certainly don't see offsides. Also don't see a foul although camera shot is far away. Diffley appears to spill the cross, lands at Kenyon foot, tapped in. Kenyon players especially Carson hysterical that goal waved off.
Second one occurs about 90 secs after Williams scored...a handball shout that looks rather similar to MW handball non-call. Close range, Upton hits shot towards upper right corner clearly on frame from about 7-8 yards out and Williams defender blocks ball with arm/hand extended on ball Diffley had no chance on. Kenyon players had immediate reaction and Williams defender waves his arms as though to say, no, no, no. What appears to be obvious handball goes uncalled. This play begins with around 6:00 min left (or at 2:04:30 mark).
https://www.northcoastnetwork.com/kenyon/?B=464841
Tough one PN.
I thought Kenyon had a great chance to climb the mountain this year. I am sure they will be back, one of the most consistent teams out there.
If you will be in Chicago's scenic Hyde Park neighborhood tomorrow, Nella Pizza e Pasta will be hosting a Soccer Doubleheader Brunch, USA vs Netherlands at 9am, followed at 11am by Your University of Chicago Maroons vs some effete liberal snobs from Connecticut, New Hampshire or one of those places who call themselves Gs or Hs or some other letter. May the best team from the south side of Chicago win.
Nella is located at:
1125 E 55th St
Chicago, IL 60615
(773) 643-0603
https://nellachicago.com/
The restaurant is in the Jeanne Gang designed North Residential Commons which you can have named after yourself for $35 - $40 million. Nella has won Michelin Bib Gourmand 2020, 2021 and 2022.
https://www.instagram.com/p/Clrgk8utN1-/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y
Quote from: Yankeesoccerdad on December 02, 2022, 05:24:15 PM
Here is the video. it took a couple of minutes to find so thought folks would like the link.
https://www.ncaa.com/video/soccer-men/2022-12-01/diii-mens-soccer-2022-semifinal-recap
Definite handball. He instinctively tucks in his arm afterward to act like nothing happened.
It seemed like the refs were reluctant to call fouls in either game yesterday, while in the prior tournament games I saw this year soft fouls (at least relative to NESCAC standards) were consistently called fouls.
I think we all agree. As an announcer, I was trying hard not to harp on it... I didn't want to ruin the overall moment of the win for Williams. But I also would not have been doing my job had we not talked about it.
Dead even first half. No team had a really good chance though the Ephs looked a bit dangerous on set pieces and Chicago a bit dangerous on the counter, especially up the left side. But the strength of both teams is clearly on defense and it showed and the center backs are very steady on both sides. Basically the typical Williams game this tourney, anything more than one goal total from both sides combined would be a mild surprise at this point.
1-0 Chicago on a bomb from Pino. He has been the most dynamic player on the field so far today.
Congrats to Chicago on a well-earned national title. Their back line was absolutely impenetrable, especially Wada who was in total control. Not one really golden chance for the Ephs today. They played as well as anyone played v Williams, in the second half today.
Congrats also to the Ephs on an amazing run. They gave it all they had but today Chicago just had too much. Heartbreaking to fall so close, but the Ephs announced that they are fully back and the future of the program is bright.
Congratulations to UChicago-- 2022 NCAA DIII Men's Soccer Champions
Final: UChicago 2, Williams 0 Chicago gets an empty net goal with 14 seconds left to seal it.
Congratulations to Julianne Sitch- First woman to coach a men's soccer team to an NCAA Championship in any division.
So there is a god after all. Kudos to Williams for making it this far playing such an ugly style of footy, but the best team won today. Wada and Gillespie's height was the perfect foil to Williams' style of play. What a story for Chicago and their female head coach. Undefeated season and a title under their belt. 4 out of 5 final 4 appearances with a title to boot. Definitely one of the top teams in the last decade. Looking forward, they lose both the CBs and Yetishefsky, but I still think they'll be the favorites next year returning 8 starters.
Quote from: deiscanton on December 03, 2022, 02:09:31 PM
Congratulations to UChicago-- 2022 NCAA DIII Men's Soccer Champions
Final: UChicago 2, Williams 0 Chicago gets an empty net goal with 14 seconds left to seal it.
Congratulations to Julianne Sitch- First woman to coach a men's soccer team to an NCAA Championship in any division.
Not to mention the first UAA team to win the title (as a member of the UAA, anyway, since Brandeis's title predated the creation of the UAA), and only the second non-NESCAC team other than Messiah to win the title since 2003.
Quote from: Buck O. on December 03, 2022, 02:17:15 PM
Quote from: deiscanton on December 03, 2022, 02:09:31 PM
Congratulations to UChicago-- 2022 NCAA DIII Men's Soccer Champions
Final: UChicago 2, Williams 0 Chicago gets an empty net goal with 14 seconds left to seal it.
Congratulations to Julianne Sitch- First woman to coach a men's soccer team to an NCAA Championship in any division.
Not to mention the first UAA team to win the title (as a member of the UAA, anyway, since Brandeis's title predated the creation of the UAA), and only the second non-NESCAC team other than Messiah to win the title since 2003.
Let's see if Case Western can pull it off on the women's side for a double UAA Natty
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on December 03, 2022, 02:19:08 PM
Quote from: Buck O. on December 03, 2022, 02:17:15 PM
Quote from: deiscanton on December 03, 2022, 02:09:31 PM
Congratulations to UChicago-- 2022 NCAA DIII Men's Soccer Champions
Final: UChicago 2, Williams 0 Chicago gets an empty net goal with 14 seconds left to seal it.
Congratulations to Julianne Sitch- First woman to coach a men's soccer team to an NCAA Championship in any division.
Not to mention the first UAA team to win the title (as a member of the UAA, anyway, since Brandeis's title predated the creation of the UAA), and only the second non-NESCAC team other than Messiah to win the title since 2003.
Let's see if Case Western can pull it off on the women's side for a double UAA Natty
No thanks... Go JAYS! :D
Congratulations to the Maroons! Celebrate for fifteen minutes and then get back to the books. Finals start on Tuesday.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on December 03, 2022, 02:23:33 PM
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on December 03, 2022, 02:19:08 PM
Quote from: Buck O. on December 03, 2022, 02:17:15 PM
Quote from: deiscanton on December 03, 2022, 02:09:31 PM
Congratulations to UChicago-- 2022 NCAA DIII Men's Soccer Champions
Final: UChicago 2, Williams 0 Chicago gets an empty net goal with 14 seconds left to seal it.
Congratulations to Julianne Sitch- First woman to coach a men's soccer team to an NCAA Championship in any division.
Not to mention the first UAA team to win the title (as a member of the UAA, anyway, since Brandeis's title predated the creation of the UAA), and only the second non-NESCAC team other than Messiah to win the title since 2003.
Let's see if Case Western can pull it off on the women's side for a double UAA Natty
No thanks... Go JAYS! :D
Fair, I'm just happy it's no NESCAC. They need to learn to share ;D
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on December 03, 2022, 02:31:22 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on December 03, 2022, 02:23:33 PM
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on December 03, 2022, 02:19:08 PM
Quote from: Buck O. on December 03, 2022, 02:17:15 PM
Quote from: deiscanton on December 03, 2022, 02:09:31 PM
Congratulations to UChicago-- 2022 NCAA DIII Men's Soccer Champions
Final: UChicago 2, Williams 0 Chicago gets an empty net goal with 14 seconds left to seal it.
Congratulations to Julianne Sitch- First woman to coach a men's soccer team to an NCAA Championship in any division.
Not to mention the first UAA team to win the title (as a member of the UAA, anyway, since Brandeis's title predated the creation of the UAA), and only the second non-NESCAC team other than Messiah to win the title since 2003.
Let's see if Case Western can pull it off on the women's side for a double UAA Natty
No thanks... Go JAYS! :D
Fair, I'm just happy it's no NESCAC. They need to learn to share ;D
Well, Hopkins
should be in the UAA, even if they had the colossally bad judgment to leave, so if they win, I'm inclined to count it as a UAA title anyway.
Thought that it was Williams' game to win the longer it went on 0-0, but once that first one went in I wasn't thinking they'd get back in the game.
PN's point about them playing ahead most of the tournament seemed prescient. The Ephs were competitive but even when a team has destiny written all over it, the math still suggests the favorite more times than not, and Chicago was the stronger team on the day. Whenever the goalkeeper gets a hand to a shot but doesn't save it, questions are asked, but Pino's shot was a rocket. And, the coup de grace with 15 seconds underlined Chicago's dominance of the second half after a pretty even first half.
Congratulations to the Maroons, and great to have a title that can be attributed to the UAA.
Congratulations to the boys from Chicago becoming Champions...These guys were rated from the start of the season and held their own the entire way, like another group of champsbI know.
Champions live forever.
The good thing is the appreciation of what you have accomplished will only grow with time and you will inspire many a future Chicago teams to do the same. Well done Chicago.Well done UAA
Quote from: deiscanton on December 03, 2022, 02:09:31 PM
Congratulations to UChicago-- 2022 NCAA DIII Men's Soccer Champions
Final: UChicago 2, Williams 0 Chicago gets an empty net goal with 14 seconds left to seal it.
Congratulations to Julianne Sitch- First woman to coach a men's soccer team to an NCAA Championship in any division.
I wonder if Sitch is also the first coach to win it in the their first year with the program and in their first year as a college head coach at any level (she was head coach of the Chicago Red Stars reserves that won their conference in the WPSL in 2021, but otherwise her college (and senior level pro) experience has been as an assistant coach). I wouldn't be surprised if those are firsts in college as well. Although she inherited a really strong team with tournament experience, I've seen many a head coach screw that up. Plus, she helped integrate some strong freshman attackers into the lineup and kept the team united and tactically strong. Arguably, she brought in tactics that pushed them over the top.
Kudos to Chicago. Wire to wire year. Undefeated season. Well deserved. Extremely well-constructed team and pleasure to watch.
Given some of my own comments (as well as some of others) I do want to congratulate Williams on a remarkable run. Whatever one thinks of them getting a bid to their offensive playing style, they proved over and over that they were no fluke. I was so pleased when they knocked out Messiah for the rest of us and had no idea at the time that I should have been worried about Williams, or more correctly, both of them. I assumed they had survived a toss-up with NYU and then pulled a major upset to advance over Messiah. Never thought that no one would be able to figure them out. Imo the Ephs made Chicago more uncomfortable than any team this year. Stich looked confused and worried throughout the 1st half and Williams just refused to allow Chicago (or any team) to find a rhythm. Really impressive recovery defense and nearly every time a Maroons player seemed to find a little space he was run down, dispossessed, or blocked and would be surrounded by at least two and often three Ephs. Chicago had as much trouble navigating through the midfield and final third as everybody else in the tournament. I also thought Chicago needed to score in the first half and as the game wore on Williams seemed to be in a very good position. When Chicago finally did score it seemed weird for Williams to be down 1-0. I wonder what that was like for them. I assume coaches have different strategies based on different scenarios but I wonder how much they talk about them with the players ahead of time. At any rate, the Ephs gave up their first goal in the last five games today.
Quote from: Kuiper on December 03, 2022, 05:10:40 PM
Quote from: deiscanton on December 03, 2022, 02:09:31 PM
Congratulations to UChicago-- 2022 NCAA DIII Men's Soccer Champions
Final: UChicago 2, Williams 0 Chicago gets an empty net goal with 14 seconds left to seal it.
Congratulations to Julianne Sitch- First woman to coach a men's soccer team to an NCAA Championship in any division.
I wonder if Sitch is also the first coach to win it in the their first year with the program and in their first year as a college head coach at any level (she was head coach of the Chicago Red Stars reserves that won their conference in the WPSL in 2021, but otherwise her college (and senior level pro) experience has been as an assistant coach). I wouldn't be surprised if those are firsts in college as well. Although she inherited a really strong team with tournament experience, I've seen many a head coach screw that up. Plus, she helped integrate some strong freshman attackers into the lineup and kept the team united and tactically strong. Arguably, she brought in tactics that pushed them over the top.
Interestingly, I just read about the CWRU women's coach today in part because CWRU being in the title game, especially the women, seemed surprising to me. Abby Richter, the CWRU coach, fits all those criteria above....hired in August, never a head coach before. I totally understood why Bianco left CWRU for Denison but CWRU is a fantastic school... maybe doesn't have the glamour of some of its UAA brethren but one of the more underrated, under the radar schools among top tier academic schools. The CWRU women's record over the past few years suggests that they were building towards a season like the one they're having, but, just like with the Chicago men, being able to go so far with another coach you just met when school started seems impressive.
Sidenote....I am almost certain I will awaken in the middle of the night to seeing Williams #12, Cole Morriello, preparing to do a throw-in. Talented, good-looking kid who got tons of air time and will probably have a sweet NIL deal by tonight. No matter what side of the field the ball went out on he seemed to be there already. He and Boardman really did seem to be wherever the ball was almost all the time. And Morriello, also just a frosh, took all or at least the vast majority of free kicks and corners. Diffley was probably second for free kicks (of the 65-80 yard variety).
I'm curious to anyone's thoughts as to yetishevkys goal on an empty net with 14 seconds left. He clearly could have run out the clock. IMO strikers look to score and that was the first thing on his mind. Should he have held the ball and let the clock run down.
Another interesting (at least to me) side note is that Williams just completed four straight games without a tie (1-0 over ONU, 1-0 over Kenyon, 1-0 over Mary Washington, and 0-2 loss to Chicago - I'm not counting Messiah because that's technically a tie settled by a tiebreaker PK shootout). That's its longest stretch without a tie all season. The previous high was two games without a tie, which happened twice this season.
Quote from: 4samuy on December 03, 2022, 07:39:07 PM
I'm curious to anyone's thoughts as to yetishevkys goal on an empty net with 14 seconds left. He clearly could have run out the clock. IMO strikers look to score and that was the first thing on his mind. Should he have held the ball and let the clock run down.
I didn't have a problem with it. I think most teams in that spot would have taken the shot. I mean, Williams was still trying desperately to score with 34 secs left and that's what created that last goal. That said, the goal does distort the outcome....which was barely a 1-0 game. And putting the empty-netter aside, it's very possible Chicago had less good chances today than the last few opponents of Williams. The game-deciding goal by Pino while a gorgeous strike was basically a good half-chance. I don't recall any better chances during the game and Gillespie and Wada were pretty much non-factors on set pieces/corners...although I thought Wada in particular was outstanding in the back.
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 03, 2022, 05:38:01 PMI also thought Chicago needed to score in the first half
I didn't. Chicago is a second-half team, and it's been that way all year for the Maroons. They end their championship season with over twice as many goals in the second halves of their games (35) than they scored in the first halves (15).
Quote from: 4samuy on December 03, 2022, 07:39:07 PM
I'm curious to anyone's thoughts as to yetishevkys goal on an empty net with 14 seconds left. He clearly could have run out the clock. IMO strikers look to score and that was the first thing on his mind. Should he have held the ball and let the clock run down.
Never, ever,
ever take anything for granted, fourteen seconds left or not, in a one-goal game -- especially if it's a national championship game. If you have a shot at an empty-netter, you take it, no questions asked.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 03, 2022, 08:02:55 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 03, 2022, 05:38:01 PMI also thought Chicago needed to score in the first half
I didn't. Chicago is a second-half team, and it's been that way all year for the Maroons. They end their championship season with over twice as many goals in the second halves of their games (35) than they scored in the first halves (15).
Well, as it turned out that's obviously true. But it's not like Chicago came out in the 2nd half and was peppering the goal. I'm guessing they wanted to get a goal in the 1st half very badly. For me, it wasn't about whether Chicago is a 1st or 2nd half team but more so what needed to happen to make Williams face a very different dynamic than the one that carried through the first five games.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 03, 2022, 08:02:55 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 03, 2022, 05:38:01 PMI also thought Chicago needed to score in the first half
I didn't. Chicago is a second-half team, and it's been that way all year for the Maroons. They end their championship season with over twice as many goals in the second halves of their games (35) than they scored in the first halves (15).
My thoughts exactly. When it was 0-0 at half, I was feeling fine about UChicago's chances. The Maroons are an adjustment team, their second halves are where they really shine. Whether it be changing tactics or just wearing out opponents, that's the time when they thrive.
Quote from: blue_jays on December 03, 2022, 08:11:04 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 03, 2022, 08:02:55 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 03, 2022, 05:38:01 PMI also thought Chicago needed to score in the first half
I didn't. Chicago is a second-half team, and it's been that way all year for the Maroons. They end their championship season with over twice as many goals in the second halves of their games (35) than they scored in the first halves (15).
My thoughts exactly. When it was 0-0 at half, I was feeling fine about UChicago's chances. The Maroons are an adjustment team, their second halves are where they really shine. Whether it be changing tactics or just wearing out opponents, that's the time when they thrive.
Then BOTH teams were feeling great at the break. Stich certainly didn't look super confident as the 1st half came to a close. Also curious what adjustments you think Chicago made at the half. Not trying to diminish Chicago's accomplishment at all....absolutely one of the best two teams all season (probably by a good margin) and a thoroughly deserving national champion. VERY happy for the Maroons. But we don't need to distort what actually happened on the field or act like Chicago came out in the 2nd half and cleaned Williams' clock.
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 03, 2022, 08:17:18 PM
Quote from: blue_jays on December 03, 2022, 08:11:04 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 03, 2022, 08:02:55 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 03, 2022, 05:38:01 PMI also thought Chicago needed to score in the first half
I didn't. Chicago is a second-half team, and it's been that way all year for the Maroons. They end their championship season with over twice as many goals in the second halves of their games (35) than they scored in the first halves (15).
My thoughts exactly. When it was 0-0 at half, I was feeling fine about UChicago's chances. The Maroons are an adjustment team, their second halves are where they really shine. Whether it be changing tactics or just wearing out opponents, that's the time when they thrive.
Then BOTH teams were feeling great at the break. Stich certainly didn't look super confident as the 1st half came to a close. Also curious what adjustments you think Chicago made at the half. Not trying to diminish Chicago's accomplishment at all....absolutely one of the best two teams all season (probably by a good margin) and a thoroughly deserving national champion. VERY happy for the Maroons. But we don't need to distort what actually happened on the field or act like Chicago came out in the 2nd half and cleaned Williams' clock.
Didn't say that at all. That's just how I felt at the time when halftime rolled around and UChicago wasn't trailing. The Maroons for years now are a second half team, that's just how they are built and how they operate. So I felt good about their chances at the time, and it proved to be correct. Doesn't matter if any coaching changes happened today or not, it's more about how the team gains steam as the match goes on.
Having followed Williams closely this year, I just want to say how much some of these posts are appreciated here at the end of their journey. From a distance, their number of regular season wins and ties might raise questions about making the field of 64. Those questions were answered for most with a 2-1 OT win against a strong NYU side (who provided UChicago the lone tie in an otherwise perfect season). Things began to get interesting the next day after taking out Messiah on PK's. The team knew they could play with anyone and anyone paying attention knew they would be a tough out- no matter what you think of their style of play. A hard earned 1-0 win against Ohio Northern meant another Sunday match-up against a host team used to piling up goals and wins. Kenyon got neither on that day as Williams made a late goal stand up for another 1-0 win. One of the problems with denigrating a team's style of play is that it deflects credit from the players who earned every result they got. Ben Diffley is one of the best, if not the best, GK's in DIII. Nick Boardman demonstrated that he's among the best field players in DIII. They and their teammates didn't surrender a goal in the run of play from October 15-December 3- a span of 11 games and 1,075 minutes. That's your story. The final game in that streak was another hard fought 1-0 win against UMW in the semi's. The UChicago game was similar to the other five games played to that point in the tournament- this time a world class strike was the difference. All you can do is tip your cap, hold your head high and say congratulations.
I'm going to be very honest, I didn't really spend a lot of time watching Williams this year. Certainly not enough for me to come on here and make any kind of judgement about their style of play. It was definitely interesting to see folks I respect dig into them on a fairly regular basis.
I kind of learned a bit of a lesson with F&M, a team that seems to draw some amount of inspiration from Tufts in terms of style of play and bench antics. The lesson: results are really what matters. If the squad is bought in, and there needs to be significant buy-in when you start going off of the usual script for success, you can do some real damage at almost any level. (Edit to Add, or ETA: I was very critical of the Dips for a couple of seasons running, because they played garbage ball against Hopkins. But it was effective, so... I'm the one sucking sour grapes, so reflect on that. You can rail against it, try to fix it, neither or both.)
I will say this, and I'm not the first to mention it, what little I did see of Williams, I was impressed by their overall skill on the ball. Of course, incredible D was on display (this was the game against Messiah). But, I'll just say... I don't care what type of system you deploy, you don't make a national title game without a lot of incredible players.
So, kudos to Williams for a great season.
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 03, 2022, 05:57:19 PM
Quote from: Kuiper on December 03, 2022, 05:10:40 PM
Quote from: deiscanton on December 03, 2022, 02:09:31 PM
Congratulations to UChicago-- 2022 NCAA DIII Men's Soccer Champions
Final: UChicago 2, Williams 0 Chicago gets an empty net goal with 14 seconds left to seal it.
Congratulations to Julianne Sitch- First woman to coach a men's soccer team to an NCAA Championship in any division.
I wonder if Sitch is also the first coach to win it in the their first year with the program and in their first year as a college head coach at any level (she was head coach of the Chicago Red Stars reserves that won their conference in the WPSL in 2021, but otherwise her college (and senior level pro) experience has been as an assistant coach). I wouldn't be surprised if those are firsts in college as well. Although she inherited a really strong team with tournament experience, I've seen many a head coach screw that up. Plus, she helped integrate some strong freshman attackers into the lineup and kept the team united and tactically strong. Arguably, she brought in tactics that pushed them over the top.
Interestingly, I just read about the CWRU women's coach today in part because CWRU being in the title game, especially the women, seemed surprising to me. Abby Richter, the CWRU coach, fits all those criteria above....hired in August, never a head coach before. I totally understood why Bianco left CWRU for Denison but CWRU is a fantastic school... maybe doesn't have the glamour of some of its UAA brethren but one of the more underrated, under the radar schools among top tier academic schools. The CWRU women's record over the past few years suggests that they were building towards a season like the one they're having, but, just like with the Chicago men, being able to go so far with another coach you just met when school started seems impressive.
Well, Case Western didn't win on the women's side, but UCLA Women's Soccer won the national championship in D1 women's soccer and the coach, Margueritte Aozasa, is a first time head coach in her first year at UCLA. I was shocked to read that she's only the fourth women to coach a team to the women's national championship. Just goes to show how men have dominated coaching at all levels and in both men's and women's soccer for a long time (and perhaps it reflects the dominance of a few male coaches like Anson Dorrance, who was gracious in his remarks in defeat against UCLA).
On Case, it is definitely a hidden gem in some respects. Not sure why it is still hidden. It's in a beautiful location in the University Circle neighborhood of Cleveland, near museums and just a few minutes east of downtown with easy public transportation. I tend to think academically the merger in the late 1960s didn't serve either Case Inst of Technology or Western Reserve University all that well at the time. Case was always playing second (or third fiddle) in the tech dept to nearby Carnegie Mellon and the RPIs and MITs, and the merger with Western Reserve probably diluted its brand further. Now, both sides are academically strong, with Case benefiting from close-by Cleveland Clinic, but academic reputations are sticky and it has never gotten the recognition it deserved. I expect that joining the UAA was partly an attempt to align itself with the reputation of other members of the conference. Much like the NESCAC (and the Ivy league in D1), the UAA is the kind of athletic conference that sends a signal about a school's academic mission and probably does help to raise the academic profile of the school for some students.
Smart, savvy folks who aren't dominated by prestige, elitism, and what the neighbors will think are good at finding the hidden gems...like a CWRU or a Rochester or Stevens or WPI, or at the LAC level a Denison, a Whitman, a Centre, a Rhodes, etc...You might give up some sunny days and 40 to 50 degrees in temperature and 15-20 ranking spots in USNWR, but the academics are just as good in most cases (and maybe sometimes better), athletic opportunities might be a bit more attractive, and you might get some very helpful merit money. Even for those of us who realize rankings shouldn't be so focal and overwhelming in our minds, it's very difficult at least for people within a particular demographic to truly break free from the false idol of rankings. We learn about and live them as though they have some hard reality...and the impact of that is huge and leads to categorizing schools in ways we basically accept as real that aren't real....like "so and so is a top 5 school" or "top 10 school" or a "that one's OK, it's still top 40 or 50." And the industry knows how powerful the mythology is because some of them are laser-focused on improving their ranking...and why not when doing so yields very clear results, more applicants, lower admissions rates, more money, better facilities, and whatever else goes along with substantial reputation boosts (see Colby, Richmond, Denison, etc). We assign different meanings to a school that's ranked #5 versus one that's #25 even though your kid's chances of as good an outcome and in many cases even better outcomes (med school, law school, careers) may be significantly better at the one ranked #25 or even #75. This stuff gets so ingrained we often don't even realize what we're doing. Someone could tell me his kid is seriously looking at Gustavus Adolphus, and my kneejerk response might be something like "Oh wow, that's nice. St Peter, MN, right? Is she considering Grinnell out that way as well?" The frames and filters we "wear" everyday are so much more dominant than we think they are.
But be careful. Your kid may actually listen and ultimately disappoint you. I loved Rochester and "discovered" it in our family. In my mind (and I suspect this is often the case with CWRU) I considered UR to be the almost perfect high-end safety school for my daughter...and good enough for my ego if that's how things played out. Nevertheless, when she had all of your choices in front of her after all the acceptances, wait lists, and rejections came in, I could not help wanting her to pick Macalester, Bryn Mawr, Barnard, or NYU. It was all ego, ego, ego. I knew UR was every bit as good as any of the others and in hindsight she and we never had any regrets (jokes about paywalls aside), but I still imagined lukewarm social responses when others would hear about her choice...like, with a slightly puzzled look "Oh, Rochester, nice school" and then watching that couple move on to the parents jabbering about Dartmouth.
Back to CWRU....I think you are correct @Kuiper that the medical excellence now synonymous with Cleveland because of Cleveland Clinic and also to some degree Case Medical has a positive contagion effect on CWRU in general. Cleveland in terms of medicine is considered absolutely on a level with Boston, San Fran, Baltimore, NYC, Rochester, MN, Toronto, etc....but all things being equal, how often is a kid who holds acceptances from U Michigan, UVA, CMU, Wash U, Emory, and CWRU gonna choose CWRU? Not often unless the money difference is extreme and a critical factor.
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 03, 2022, 05:57:19 PM
Quote from: Kuiper on December 03, 2022, 05:10:40 PM
Quote from: deiscanton on December 03, 2022, 02:09:31 PM
Congratulations to UChicago-- 2022 NCAA DIII Men's Soccer Champions
Final: UChicago 2, Williams 0 Chicago gets an empty net goal with 14 seconds left to seal it.
Congratulations to Julianne Sitch- First woman to coach a men's soccer team to an NCAA Championship in any division.
I wonder if Sitch is also the first coach to win it in the their first year with the program and in their first year as a college head coach at any level (she was head coach of the Chicago Red Stars reserves that won their conference in the WPSL in 2021, but otherwise her college (and senior level pro) experience has been as an assistant coach). I wouldn't be surprised if those are firsts in college as well. Although she inherited a really strong team with tournament experience, I've seen many a head coach screw that up. Plus, she helped integrate some strong freshman attackers into the lineup and kept the team united and tactically strong. Arguably, she brought in tactics that pushed them over the top.
Interestingly, I just read about the CWRU women's coach today in part because CWRU being in the title game, especially the women, seemed surprising to me. Abby Richter, the CWRU coach, fits all those criteria above....hired in August, never a head coach before. I totally understood why Bianco left CWRU for Denison but CWRU is a fantastic school... maybe doesn't have the glamour of some of its UAA brethren but one of the more underrated, under the radar schools among top tier academic schools. The CWRU women's record over the past few years suggests that they were building towards a season like the one they're having, but, just like with the Chicago men, being able to go so far with another coach you just met when school started seems impressive.
On the topic of women coaches and Case Western, the head coach that preceded Abby Ritcher at Case Western was also a woman, Jen Simonetti. Given the timing of Simonetti leaving for Division I Akron (women's HC) in mid-July and Ritcher's hire a week into August, this year's squad is entirely Simonetti's recruits including two grad student D-I transfers. Case only lost 3 full-time starters and 1 part-time starter from last year to graduation while 2 seniors chose to return for a 5th year including their All-American midfielder who led the team in goals and assists in 2021. In three years/two seasons, Simonetti turned a mediocre team and UAA doormat into a nationally relevant Top 25 team, setting the table for what Ritcher accomplished this year. Simonetti was named the D3soccer.com Coach of the Year last year. Here's the write-up:
| | In a somewhat non-traditional, but well-deserved choice, the D3soccer.com women's Coach of the Year is Jen Simonetti, of Case Western Reserve, who led the Spartans to their most successful season in program history. In 2021 they recorded an overall record of 16-2-2, a UAA mark of 4-1-2, good for second; advanced to the NCAA Sweet Sixteen; and finished 12th in the D3soccer.com Top 25, each all-time program bests. Coach Simonetti has led a remarkable turnaround for CWRU in the most difficult conference in women's soccer. She became CWRU head coach in July 2019. In the ten years before her arrival, the Spartans averaged 1-5-1 in the UAA and 8-8-2 overall. In her first year, 2019, the Spartans set a program record for wins and made the NCAA field for only the second time in program history. This season, they blew past those marks with three added wins for another program best and advanced to the Sweet Sixteen. In her first two seasons the Spartans have cumulative win percent of .500 / .782 (UAA / overall), dramatic improvements over the .236 / .519 marks of the previous ten years. [https://d3soccer.com/awards/all-america/2021/2021-Womens-AA (https://d3soccer.com/awards/all-america/2021/2021-Womens-AA)] |
Quote from: Ephpreciation on December 05, 2022, 05:26:50 PM
Having followed Williams closely this year, I just want to say how much some of these posts are appreciated here at the end of their journey. From a distance, their number of regular season wins and ties might raise questions about making the field of 64. Those questions were answered for most with a 2-1 OT win against a strong NYU side (who provided UChicago the lone tie in an otherwise perfect season). Things began to get interesting the next day after taking out Messiah on PK's. The team knew they could play with anyone and anyone paying attention knew they would be a tough out- no matter what you think of their style of play. A hard earned 1-0 win against Ohio Northern meant another Sunday match-up against a host team used to piling up goals and wins. Kenyon got neither on that day as Williams made a late goal stand up for another 1-0 win. One of the problems with denigrating a team's style of play is that it deflects credit from the players who earned every result they got. Ben Diffley is one of the best, if not the best, GK's in DIII. Nick Boardman demonstrated that he's among the best field players in DIII. They and their teammates didn't surrender a goal in the run of play from October 15-December 3- a span of 11 games and 1,075 minutes. That's your story. The final game in that streak was another hard fought 1-0 win against UMW in the semi's. The UChicago game was similar to the other five games played to that point in the tournament- this time a world class strike was the difference. All you can do is tip your cap, hold your head high and say congratulations.
I've been thinking about if and how I wanted to respond to this and honestly was hoping more would chime in.
Multiple things can be true at the same time. I think I was consistent all year (probably to a fault) in saying do NOT underestimate the NESCAC teams. Some asked why we were talking about them so much and some were not that impressed, while some others questioned why we weren't focusing on them even more. Some have shared that they really don't think about the D3 soccer world much outside of the NESCAC, almost to the point that it might feel insulting to not just let the NESCAC tournament serve as the national tournament. Btw, I think we're up to about seven NESCAC GKs who are the best GK in the country.
Anyway, Williams basically did what I thought Middlebury (or Bowdoin) was gonna do. I can't tell if the poster agrees that Williams was the least likely of the five NESCACs in the tournament to make such a deep run, or if the message is that all the NESCAC quarterfinalists are equal in quality and difficulty. At any rate, absolutely an incredible run and an incredible achievement. I've praised Boardman like crazy. Several of us have detailed the very difficult and impressive road the Ephs traveled to get to the final. But just as Williams could have prevailed yet again (and we'll never know what would have happened if Pino hadn't scored a wonder goal), they also could have bowed out against any of the prior five opponents. All were close, all could have gone the other way with a bounce here or there or a call or non-call here or there. So, long story short, what ultimately gets my blood pressure and defenses up is the apparent insatiability of some NESCAC fans coupled with a stunning lack of humility....can never be talked about or praised enough, and there's no time to acknowledge some good breaks along the way or that some of the opponents were outstanding. I had some lovely exchanges with a couple of W&L folks both before and after the W&L-Kenyon game. We complimented each other's teams, noted how things could have gone differently, and showed some fundamental respect. To be fair, I also did the same with a Bowdoin supporter, mostly initiated by him, and he was incredibly gracious (to me, to Oneonta, to Mary Wash, to Kenyon, etc). Yes, NESCAC is the best conference. Yes, you have a war every week against every team in the conference. But there's no guarantee that the eight NESCAC quarterfinalists would go play Gustavus or St Olaf or Pac Lutheran and blitz them 4-0 (or I guess blitz them 1-0).
Now a few days after the NCAA championship game, the UChicago title and its significance has now sunken in for me. The Maroons capped an incredible season where it was a top-2 team in the nation wire-to-wire. Teams always have let down games at some points where their execution lags and they can't deliver a win. That only bit the Maroons once all season – winning 22 times in 23 games during this particular "Season of the Draw" is extraordinary.
Excising the ghosts of past years was particularly satisfying. The heyday teams of Lopez, Koh, and Capotosto were the most talented the Maroons had ever put on the field. But the NCAA semis proved to be an agonizing stumbling block. This 2022 group had the supreme confidence that they would make history for the program, and they did just that by delivering in the clutch moments.
The prominent aspects that made this team special were the immense technical skill across the whole lineup, paired with the ability to adapt to the various strategies that opponents threw at them. UChicago was the definition of a second-half team: 36 of their 51 goals came after halftime (71 percent). Part of this attributable to adjustments made by the coaching staff, part of it was just the Maroons wearing their opponents down with superior talent that would keep chipping away until they got a breakthrough. The team possessed and passed the ball with precision in unhurried fashion. UChicago was a superb front-runner team all season and once they got the initial lead, a win felt inevitable.
The Maroons played incredibly consistent soccer all year. Even their rare mistakes were frequently erased thanks to a shutdown defense that just didn't give up shots on goal this year (2.6 per game). Last year saw late game collapses that cost them on 4 occasions. No such mistakes this year. The defense just didn't give up good looks. As a result, UChicago only trailed for 64 minutes all season. They also notched more shutouts (13) than goals allowed (11).
Leading the way was the best center back duo D3 has seen in years with Richard Gillespie and Griffin Wada. Both 1st Team All-Americans who were brick walls their entire careers, and will go down as the best defenders in school history. Ask any coach who has played UChicago the past two years, and those will be the first two names that come up. True game changers for the program.
UChicago was immune to set pieces all season thanks to Wada (6-foot-5) and Gillespie (6-foot-3) winning every aerial ball in their zip code. 4 of their 11 goals allowed were on penalty kicks. 7 of the goals occurred when the Maroons already held a multi-goal lead. Only Wheaton was able to score more than 1 goal against UChicago all season.
Finally, the growth of the offense this season was hugely important. In 2021, the attack felt like it was stuck in neutral for games at a time. But the 2022 squad was much more dynamic thanks to the addition of precocious youngsters and the likes of Yetishefsky and Hu making big leaps in production.
All in all, it was an immensely rewarding season to watch, and these Maroons will always hold a special place in UChicago history.
When the Maroons came down to Wabash last season Wada's skills - especially his leadership of that backline - were crystal clear.
That young man has a bright future ahead of him.
I've been trying to understand my reaction to the narrative of "Chicago is a 2nd half team."
First, just so there is no misunderstanding, Chicago was my 2nd favorite team all season. I ranked them ahead of Messiah all season until the NYU draw basically forced a drop to #2. I've listened to several of the Chicago press conferences and could not be more impressed. First class all the way, including the heartfelt nods to the alums who built the foundation upon which this season was laid. Absolutely love Wada and Gillespie, although the attention they get to some degree masks the greatness of multiple other players. I thought Moonesinge and Kabbani had fantastic tournaments, and Hu, Pino, Baldwin, and Leuker were all outstanding. Yeti is Yeti, and the two frosh Kai Walsh and Alex Lee are going to cause havoc in the UAA and nationally for three more years (although I did think the latter two were quieter and a little less impactful in the last few games than I expected). There have been some very talented Final 4 and championship teams over the past six to eight years, but I don't think any were more talented than this 2022 Chicago squad. Bottom line...it was a joy watching a team that believed a title was their destiny actually go out and climb to the top of the mountain.
So, the 2nd half thing. The way this idea has been expressed imo gives an impression that this was intentional and a standard part of game plans rather than a secondary effect of other factors. I assume folks don't think Chicago didn't want to score in 1st halves or didn't try very hard to score in 1st halves. There's also the other part of keeping the other team off the scoreboard (in both halves). To the extent that it's true (and I get the point about 71% of goals, wearing teams out even though Chicago usually used less subs than opponents) I see the 2nd half phenomenon as a function of patience and poise. I remember exactly when my impression of Chicago in this regard was solidified. It was the Calvin game in the 1st half shortly before Calvin's outside back picked up two yellows within just a couple of minutes. Calvin had been dominating with a spell of possession and was camped out in the Chicago half for a long stretch but Chicago looked unphased and comfortable defending in their half and even deep in their half. I remember posting about it....that the Maroons were under some pressure but did not look pressured or appear to be scrambling. In some ways I think they were patient to a fault. In other words, they had the talent to score more in 1st halves, and I'm sure they would have preferred to score in at least one of the two halves versus Stevens when they were pushed to within 3-4 minutes of PKs. I'm sure they would have preferred to score in the first half against Williams. I doubt they were happier about 0-0 at the half than they would have been up 1-0 or 2-0. And it's not like Chicago came out in the 2nd half and blitzed Williams. Pino's goal was far from the best chance teams had against Williams in the Williams run except for the fact that it went in. I don't recall many more or better chances in that 2nd half. In short, I think Chicago could have been even better. Imo with their talent they should have been able to produce more offense against Calvin and NYU who played with 10 men for a full half and half or more of the 1st half. And the lack of more offensive punch in those games wasn't because Calvin and NYU took on a more defensive posture a la Stevens and Williams.
I do think it would have been interesting to see Chicago play Messiah, Kenyon, W&L, and/or Calvin....teams set up more to attack than to rely on the counter. in some ways I think the Maroons might have preferred playing those teams because it's very hard to counter against teams like Stevens and Williams so determined to wait for their own counters. But then I think about Chicago struggling with 10 men attacking teams for 65-70 minutes and wonder what games against very talented, attacking teams might have looked like.
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 07, 2022, 11:23:29 AM
I've been trying to understand my reaction to the narrative of "Chicago is a 2nd half team."
First, just so there is no misunderstanding, Chicago was my 2nd favorite team all season. I ranked them ahead of Messiah all season until the NYU draw basically forced a drop to #2. I've listened to several of the Chicago press conferences and could not be more impressed. First class all the way, including the heartfelt nods to the alums who built the foundation upon which this season was laid. Absolutely love Wada and Gillespie, although the attention they get to some degree masks the greatness of multiple other players. I thought Moonesinge and Kabbani had fantastic tournaments, and Hu, Pino, Baldwin, and Leuker were all outstanding. Yeti is Yeti, and the two frosh Kai Walsh and Alex Lee are going to cause havoc in the UAA and nationally for three more years (although I did think the latter two were quieter and a little less impactful in the last few games than I expected). There have been some very talented Final 4 and championship teams over the past six to eight years, but I don't think any were more talented than this 2022 Chicago squad. Bottom line...it was a joy watching a team that believed a title was their destiny actually go out and climb to the top of the mountain.
So, the 2nd half thing. The way this idea has been expressed imo gives an impression that this was intentional and a standard part of game plans rather than a secondary effect of other factors. I assume folks don't think Chicago didn't want to score in 1st halves or didn't try very hard to score in 1st halves. There's also the other part of keeping the other team off the scoreboard (in both halves). To the extent that it's true (and I get the point about 71% of goals, wearing teams out even though Chicago usually used less subs than opponents) I see the 2nd half phenomenon as a function of patience and poise. I remember exactly when my impression of Chicago in this regard was solidified. It was the Calvin game in the 1st half shortly before Calvin's outside back picked up two yellows within just a couple of minutes. Calvin had been dominating with a spell of possession and was camped out in the Chicago half for a long stretch but Chicago looked unphased and comfortable defending in their half and even deep in their half. I remember posting about it....that the Maroons were under some pressure but did not look pressured or appear to be scrambling. In some ways I think they were patient to a fault. In other words, they had the talent to score more in 1st halves, and I'm sure they would have preferred to score in at least one of the two halves versus Stevens when they were pushed to within 3-4 minutes of PKs. I'm sure they would have preferred to score in the first half against Williams. I doubt they were happier about 0-0 at the half than they would have been up 1-0 or 2-0. And it's not like Chicago came out in the 2nd half and blitzed Williams. Pino's goal was far from the best chance teams had against Williams in the Williams run except for the fact that it went in. I don't recall many more or better chances in that 2nd half. In short, I think Chicago could have been even better. Imo with their talent they should have been able to produce more offense against Calvin and NYU who played with 10 men for a full half and half or more of the 1st half. And the lack of more offensive punch in those games wasn't because Calvin and NYU took on a more defensive posture a la Stevens and Williams.
I do think it would have been interesting to see Chicago play Messiah, Kenyon, W&L, and/or Calvin....teams set up more to attack than to rely on the counter. in some ways I think the Maroons might have preferred playing those teams because it's very hard to counter against teams like Stevens and Williams so determined to wait for their own counters. But then I think about Chicago struggling with 10 men attacking teams for 65-70 minutes and wonder what games against very talented, attacking teams might have looked like.
Chicago is a typical possession-based team. They value it very highly, they are very good at it, and they are conservative about taking risks that would cause them not to be in possession. Possession-based teams often have trouble in the final third because there isn't as much space to do what they like to do and there are more bodies from the opposing teams to clog the passing lanes. So, after probing for awhile, they either pass back and reset or they pass across field to try to unbalance the defense. Some possession-based teams are simply better than their opponents and do manage to break-through with nifty through balls in the ground to runners across the box. Chicago had some of those, but the better defenses shut that down. Others do well with long shots. That was Pino's goal in the championship game. I don't think long shots were a staple of their offense, but they were an underrated contributor because Chicago's long shots were often the play before the goal rather than the goal itself. Pino had several long shots this year that resulted in goals on the rebounds, which is the sign of an active and intelligent attacking group and defenders who are caught ball-watching while they expect their GK to save them.
From the games I watched and looking at box scores generally, though, Chicago generated most of their offense (either the goal or the play before the goal) in two ways: (1) set pieces, using their size as a target to either score from or to redistribute with a header from the back post, and (2) long balls carefully placed to a forward on the move. The fouls leading to the former often occurred because one of their attackers got behind a defender and was fouled or because Chicago managed to use its superior ball skill and quick passing to cause defenders to be late in their challenges or to block balls out for corners. The latter often came from balls sent down the sides and crossed in or over the top to onrushing players (primarily Lee or Yetishefsky) Both of those options, while effective, can be shut down by a disciplined team, but defenders tend to wear down and that can make them more successful in the second half (especially since Chicago often used Lee off the bench, which made him fresher).
The bottom line is that Chicago's approach, except in the case of long shots, requires patience to break through and it can be shut down. Where Chicago really did well wasn't so much against attacking teams as against possession teams who simply weren't as good at it as Chicago. So, for example, Carnegie Mellon was sliced apart by Chicago because Chicago broke up their possession game and CMU was often caught out of position and in bad shape. Arguably, the same thing ultimately happened with St. Thomas after the cold and the fatigue from multiple tough games wore them down. I think Chicago would have done well against Mary Washington for this reason, but would have struggled against Messiah to generate scoring. The reality, though, is that Messiah would have had some of the same difficulties and the game could have come down to set pieces
EDIT: I should add that one thing that Chicago and other possession-based teams don't do a ton is long goal kicks and punts. Statistically, those are so likely to result in giving the ball back to the other teams that they should be considered "designed turnovers." What's the point of punts and long goal kicks then? To push the turnover to the opponent's half of the field where it will be less dangerous than if it happened on a pass near your own goal, while hoping that the kicking team can generate enough chaos on the play that you end up with the ball. Teams used to boot the ball to the corner flag from the opening kickoff for the same reason - it pushed the defense back to a corner of their side of the field near their goal where the strikers could try to pressure them into a mistake. Possession teams, by contrast, do short passes and GK throws out of the back to the sides or to a CM checking back, all with the hope to draw the other teams out of its shell and open up space behind them. Problem for Chicago was that teams didn't really try to press those passes in the defensive end too aggressively because they knew Chicago could get around the pressure and unlock them that way. So, ironically, Chicago's superior skill at possession actually hurt their ability to execute one of the tactics that possession teams use to generate offense.
@Kuiper....totally agree about Mary Wash and Chicago. I am curious, though, why you think Chicago's superior possession style was in some ways limiting on the offensive side of the ball compared to a Messiah that is very similar in terms of valuing and maintaining the majority of possession. I mean, there's no arguing with a national title which was well-earned and well-deserved, but could the Maroons have trusted their first-in-class defense just a little more to create a little more offense? Not sure about the CMU example since Calvin eviscerated the Tartans just as much as Chicago did. Also curious why you think Chicago struggled (comparatively speaking) against two teams that played with 10 men for at least 2/3 of the games. What would the narrative be if Stevens (or Williams) had gotten to PKs and prevailed? I personally think Chicago was good enough to win both Final 4 games by at least 2-0 (and not the distorted 2-0 they got with Williams) especially given the many months they had waited to get back the Final 4 and prove that they were the best team in the country (or at least best still standing). Put another way, I think they were better than the other teams by more than a razor thin margin
I was curious if there was a similarity between the Pino goal vs Williams and the Cubeddu Amherst goal in the 108th minute last year. Not really that similar. But what I did notice is that Chicago in the few minutes before the Amherst GW had a couple of prolonged possessions in the Amherst final 3rd, and literally about 45-60 secs before the GW Yeti had a clean look from 10 yards out which he must have replayed in his head hundreds of times. The right side of the net was wide open but Yeti went to left, struck it well, but didn't rip it, and Hope-Gund made the save. Amherst comes down to other end, we get a flip throw by Johnson from the deep corner, ball gets played out back to Johnson still out wide, he puts in another cross, probably Wada or Gillespie head the ball out, but ball falls right at the feet of Cubeddu at the top of the 18, and he blasts the ball into the lower left corner at 107:47. In this year's semi Yeti gets the GW via a header at 106:44...which is almost exactly the time left on the scoreboard the prior year when Yeti had the great chance on Hope-Gund. Heartbreak versus the greatest feeling you've ever had in your life...and which way that lands can be determined in one or two seconds.
Quote from: Kuiper on December 07, 2022, 12:59:04 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 07, 2022, 11:23:29 AM
I've been trying to understand my reaction to the narrative of "Chicago is a 2nd half team."
First, just so there is no misunderstanding, Chicago was my 2nd favorite team all season. I ranked them ahead of Messiah all season until the NYU draw basically forced a drop to #2. I've listened to several of the Chicago press conferences and could not be more impressed. First class all the way, including the heartfelt nods to the alums who built the foundation upon which this season was laid. Absolutely love Wada and Gillespie, although the attention they get to some degree masks the greatness of multiple other players. I thought Moonesinge and Kabbani had fantastic tournaments, and Hu, Pino, Baldwin, and Leuker were all outstanding. Yeti is Yeti, and the two frosh Kai Walsh and Alex Lee are going to cause havoc in the UAA and nationally for three more years (although I did think the latter two were quieter and a little less impactful in the last few games than I expected). There have been some very talented Final 4 and championship teams over the past six to eight years, but I don't think any were more talented than this 2022 Chicago squad. Bottom line...it was a joy watching a team that believed a title was their destiny actually go out and climb to the top of the mountain.
So, the 2nd half thing. The way this idea has been expressed imo gives an impression that this was intentional and a standard part of game plans rather than a secondary effect of other factors. I assume folks don't think Chicago didn't want to score in 1st halves or didn't try very hard to score in 1st halves. There's also the other part of keeping the other team off the scoreboard (in both halves). To the extent that it's true (and I get the point about 71% of goals, wearing teams out even though Chicago usually used less subs than opponents) I see the 2nd half phenomenon as a function of patience and poise. I remember exactly when my impression of Chicago in this regard was solidified. It was the Calvin game in the 1st half shortly before Calvin's outside back picked up two yellows within just a couple of minutes. Calvin had been dominating with a spell of possession and was camped out in the Chicago half for a long stretch but Chicago looked unphased and comfortable defending in their half and even deep in their half. I remember posting about it....that the Maroons were under some pressure but did not look pressured or appear to be scrambling. In some ways I think they were patient to a fault. In other words, they had the talent to score more in 1st halves, and I'm sure they would have preferred to score in at least one of the two halves versus Stevens when they were pushed to within 3-4 minutes of PKs. I'm sure they would have preferred to score in the first half against Williams. I doubt they were happier about 0-0 at the half than they would have been up 1-0 or 2-0. And it's not like Chicago came out in the 2nd half and blitzed Williams. Pino's goal was far from the best chance teams had against Williams in the Williams run except for the fact that it went in. I don't recall many more or better chances in that 2nd half. In short, I think Chicago could have been even better. Imo with their talent they should have been able to produce more offense against Calvin and NYU who played with 10 men for a full half and half or more of the 1st half. And the lack of more offensive punch in those games wasn't because Calvin and NYU took on a more defensive posture a la Stevens and Williams.
I do think it would have been interesting to see Chicago play Messiah, Kenyon, W&L, and/or Calvin....teams set up more to attack than to rely on the counter. in some ways I think the Maroons might have preferred playing those teams because it's very hard to counter against teams like Stevens and Williams so determined to wait for their own counters. But then I think about Chicago struggling with 10 men attacking teams for 65-70 minutes and wonder what games against very talented, attacking teams might have looked like.
Chicago is a typical possession-based team. They value it very highly, they are very good at it, and they are conservative about taking risks that would cause them not to be in possession. Possession-based teams often have trouble in the final third because there isn't as much space to do what they like to do and there are more bodies from the opposing teams to clog the passing lanes. So, after probing for awhile, they either pass back and reset or they pass across field to try to unbalance the defense. Some possession-based teams are simply better than their opponents and do manage to break-through with nifty through balls in the ground to runners across the box. Chicago had some of those, but the better defenses shut that down. Others do well with long shots. That was Pino's goal in the championship game. I don't think long shots were a staple of their offense, but they were an underrated contributor because Chicago's long shots were often the play before the goal rather than the goal itself. Pino had several long shots this year that resulted in goals on the rebounds, which is the sign of an active and intelligent attacking group and defenders who are caught ball-watching while they expect their GK to save them.
From the games I watched and looking at box scores generally, though, Chicago generated most of their offense (either the goal or the play before the goal) in two ways: (1) set pieces, using their size as a target to either score from or to redistribute with a header from the back post, and (2) long balls carefully placed to a forward on the move. The fouls leading to the former often occurred because one of their attackers got behind a defender and was fouled or because Chicago managed to use its superior ball skill and quick passing to cause defenders to be late in their challenges or to block balls out for corners. The latter often came from balls sent down the sides and crossed in or over the top to onrushing players (primarily Lee or Yetishefsky) Both of those options, while effective, can be shut down by a disciplined team, but defenders tend to wear down and that can make them more successful in the second half (especially since Chicago often used Lee off the bench, which made him fresher).
The bottom line is that Chicago's approach, except in the case of long shots, requires patience to break through and it can be shut down. Where Chicago really did well wasn't so much against attacking teams as against possession teams who simply weren't as good at it as Chicago. So, for example, Carnegie Mellon was sliced apart by Chicago because Chicago broke up their possession game and CMU was often caught out of position and in bad shape. Arguably, the same thing ultimately happened with St. Thomas after the cold and the fatigue from multiple tough games wore them down. I think Chicago would have done well against Mary Washington for this reason, but would have struggled against Messiah to generate scoring. The reality, though, is that Messiah would have had some of the same difficulties and the game could have come down to set pieces
EDIT: I should add that one thing that Chicago and other possession-based teams don't do a ton is long goal kicks and punts. Statistically, those are so likely to result in giving the ball back to the other teams that they should be considered "designed turnovers." What's the point of punts and long goal kicks then? To push the turnover to the opponent's half of the field where it will be less dangerous than if it happened on a pass near your own goal, while hoping that the kicking team can generate enough chaos on the play that you end up with the ball. Teams used to boot the ball to the corner flag from the opening kickoff for the same reason - it pushed the defense back to a corner of their side of the field near their goal where the strikers could try to pressure them into a mistake. Possession teams, by contrast, do short passes and GK throws out of the back to the sides or to a CM checking back, all with the hope to draw the other teams out of its shell and open up space behind them. Problem for Chicago was that teams didn't really try to press those passes in the defensive end too aggressively because they knew Chicago could get around the pressure and unlock them that way. So, ironically, Chicago's superior skill at possession actually hurt their ability to execute one of the tactics that possession teams use to generate offense.
Kuiper nailed it in terms of the overall analysis.
GK Boyes rarely ever gave it a big boot unless he had to. Mostly he just did a short pass/throw to Wada to start distribution and build through the back. UChicago has been building through the back this way since the days of Mike Babst, it's one of their calling cards that has carried over.
In terms of why UChicago struggled in 11v10 scenarios, there is no answer for it, just a mystery. I think it changed the mindset too much in terms of the way they're used to playing and they would overanalyze too much.
UChicago was at its best offensively when working with speed coming down the field, where their athleticism and great touch on the ball could carry the day against backpedaling defenders. The attack was definitely less effective once they were camped out in the offensive half with the defense in good position and ready. Things would just slow down too much and too many bodies in front to get great looks. Let's not forget either: the Maroons were a below-average offense in 2021, they struggled to score and put teams away that season. So the growth they've had to this season has been notable.
I think it just comes down to what this particular group is best at doing, which is lightning-fast counters and speedy buildups. They love a fast turf and to create on the fly.
Yeah, great job by kuiper breaking down the possession style pros and cons.
As someone that's watched a LOT of that style from "my" team, the issue of finishing is key. Now, I'd rather the team I played on/coached/cheer for to play possession if they have the skill and depth to do it.
But, play around in the back and you get burned. On the other end of the field, you need to be decisive and clinical. In my experience, you see these types of teams get too caught up in possession and they can lose the plot in the final third.
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 07, 2022, 01:48:10 PM
@Kuiper....totally agree about Mary Wash and Chicago. I am curious, though, why you think Chicago's superior possession style was in some ways limiting on the offensive side of the ball compared to a Messiah that is very similar in terms of valuing and maintaining the majority of possession. I mean, there's no arguing with a national title which was well-earned and well-deserved, but could the Maroons have trusted their first-in-class defense just a little more to create a little more offense? Not sure about the CMU example since Calvin eviscerated the Tartans just as much as Chicago did. Also curious why you think Chicago struggled (comparatively speaking) against two teams that played with 10 men for at least 2/3 of the games. What would the narrative be if Stevens (or Williams) had gotten to PKs and prevailed? I personally think Chicago was good enough to win both Final 4 games by at least 2-0 (and not the distorted 2-0 they got with Williams) especially given the many months they had waited to get back the Final 4 and prove that they were the best team in the country (or at least best still standing). Put another way, I think they were better than the other teams by more than a razor thin margin
On the Chicago v. Messiah comparison, I think some of that has to do with Messiah having superior offensive stars/playmakers than Chicago has, some of that has to do with Messiah playing more high pressure to go along with its possession game, and some of it has to do with Messiah playing some opponents who were either tactically naive and non-pragmatic (i.e., playing Messiah straight up) or were simply not quality enough sides to execute any tactical response to Messiah (the bottom of the Commonwealth seems pretty far down). The strongest challenge Messiah faced before the tournament might have come from a Lebanon Valley College team that didn't just park the bus, but they put it on cement blocks and placed a few of those big concrete planters out front. Messiah resorted to scoring on a corner kick with a lobbed ball into the box for the first goal and then, after LVC scored on a counter, Messiah got the game winner on another corner kick floated in the box. Their possession game wasn't any better than Chicago's in that situation.
One thing that really helped Messiah was coming out of the blocks very fast and scoring quickly, which pulled their opponents out of their shells (if they started in one) and paved the way to onslaughts. Against NYU, Messiah's McDonald scored 21 seconds into the game. Against Washington & Lee, they scored in the 12th minute. Against Salisbury they scored in the 11th minute. Against York in the conference semifinals, they scored in the 2nd minute. Against Widener in the conference finals, they scored in the 2nd minute. Against Carthage, which did sit back against them, they had a barrage in the opening few minutes and then scored in the 19th minute. If Chicago had scored against NYU 21 seconds into the game, that likely would have changed the game more than the second yellow did.
Could Chicago have played like Messiah? Probably, but I don't know that they have players who were as clinical and ruthless in front of the goal as Messiah. Plus, Chicago's whole mindset is to be very patient and methodical at the beginning. They are the type of possession team that passes the ball around the back line a few times before even thinking of passing forward and then retreats again if it doesn't pay dividends. If a team overcommitted, then they would pounce, but a lot of teams respected them too much to make it easy for Chicago to get forward. If you're asking why that is their mindset, the answer could come from the coach's decisions, but it often comes from the players. Some guys just like to grow into the game or are too conservative to launch forward like that. I do think that Chicago could have survived Messiah's initial assault and I think that Messiah's passing game is too strong for Chicago to have capitalized by cutting off passes and starting counter attacks, which is why I said it would likely come down to set pieces notwithstanding Messiah having more firepower.
As for the struggles against teams down a man, I think a little of that may be coaching or, as blue_jays said, to players overthinking it. Not sure they adapted well to the changed circumstances. My own experience from coaching is that certain players, from a very young age, are just risk-averse. I could put a six year-old at forward in 5 v. 5 and he inevitably drifted back to defense. I've followed some of those young players and they remain risk-averse as young men when they choose careers and everything. It may be that they Chicago just had trouble deviating from their normal plan. Against NYU, for instance, Chicago still was attacking with the same number of players after the second yellow, rather than throwing more bodies forward. They were worried about giving up the goal more than getting one of their own.
Imho, it comes down to Chicago managing games. They did play one of the toughest schedules in all of division 3. I mentioned back on the last day of conference championships that Chicago won the day due to three of their regular season wins, Calvin, St Olaf and Luther all won their conference tournaments and that would be an advantage for the bracketologists. IMO, that is what happened. If you look at their bracket, there were some really good teams, but no teams had the so called elite eight or final four pedigree, which in my opinion was the key advantage to getting to the final four, other than the hosting advantage.
That being said, they bring a ton back. You could say that losing Gillespie and Wada will cause disarray on the back line, but Imho they may have found the next great center back in freshman Alex Gomas. Due to the unbelievable duo of Gillespie and Wada he didn't get much time in the run of play, but when moonsinghe went down with an injury, he brought his 6'2 190 lb frame in and was very composed. In fact, he created the pk that Lyndon hu put home in the game vs guc. Unfortunately, that was the penalty that ended his season.
Imho this freshman class will be the catalysts for future success at Chicago. Next year Lyndon hu, robbie pino and tanner baldwin will boss the midfield, with youngsters up front and continued solid back line, with gomas in the lineup will continue to play, against most likely a top schedule, and continue to manage games as they did this year.
Kuiper, wow, you really know how to shut a guy down. Excellent stuff. I want to congratulate you on being named the PaulNewman D3soccer.com/D3 boards Newcomer of the Year. In all seriousness, I can ramp down and out knowing that you will be here to hold down the fort.
I probably agree that Messiah has more offensive prowess although I'm not sure the gap is very wide. If you watched Yeti against North Park he did a pretty decent Matt McDonald imitation. The two Chicago frosh along with Pino and Hu imo also compare favorably to Messiah's other front men, and Kabbani, who perhaps isn't Groothoff level, is still really, really good. And of course we know about the set piece capabilities of the much ballyhooed CB duo. I also agree that overall Messiah racked up numbers against a good schedule but not a schedule that matched what Chicago faced. You did highlight one difference that is real and that I still don't get from the Chicago side. Messiah values possession but still plays with urgency. I've claimed that Chicago's patience and poise were their calling cards but some urgency mixed in there might have helped. And that's the thing about the 2nd half deal. If I was a Chicago player or coach, especially knowing that only one outcome would be acceptable (the title), I think I would have felt more urgency to score early against both Stevens and Williams. We're talking national semi and national final. While I wouldn't expect them to change things up dramatically which no doubt would be ill-advised, I would be focused on how a 0-0 game into the second half or even just a 1-0 lead late could put the dream at risk. We're talking about a Chicago rteam desperate to not leave anything to chance. Stevens and Williams certainly were due to not prevail in a game like that after getting through several games in a row just like that, but to me a game playing out to 0-0 into the 107th minute or going deep into a second half 0-0 was playing with fire. Obviously give credit to Stevens and Williams for being worthy foes who could have pulled the upset, and maybe Chicago did feel that urgency and just couldn't break through.
Williams is a relevant variable here as the Ephs played both. I credit Messiah a little more because they were first (well I guess second) in line for the Williams train, but while apparently some thought Williams could pull the upset that didn't seem likely at all until it actually happened. Kenyon and Chicago should have benefited from seeing Messiah's fate, and maybe they did and Williams was still good enough for that not to matter. But my point is that there was absolutely no reason for Chicago to be biding their time in a national final against a team that they knew could beat them 1-0 or prevail in PKs. And maybe I was the only one who thought this, but the camera shots of Sitch towards the latter part of the 1st half I thought showed she was pretty concerned.
And yes @4samuy, I am sure Chicago will remain a top program for the foreseeable future. One interesting thing on that, and maybe why I'm a little more reserved on the celebration of Sitch, is that I can't think of another top program that has had so many coaching changes in a relatively short span of time. I do credit Sitch for masterful navigation while also believing that Wada, Gillespie, Boyes, didn't need a lot given their levels of talent, motivation, and knowledge. But they did need someone who wouldn't come in and screw it all up.
You mean there's a "Newcomer Of The Year" award? My posts would have been completely different had I known that...
I am gonna focus on Sophomore Of The Year for 2023.
Quote from: EnmoreCat on December 07, 2022, 06:06:32 PM
You mean there's a "Newcomer Of The Year" award? My posts would have been completely different had I known that...
I am gonna focus on Sophomore Of The Year for 2023.
Welp, you made the All-Freshmen team. There can only be one NOY.
Pn,
Not sure how take your thoughts. I work for a large financial corporation, where promotions are quick and fast. But most of those promotions are within the company due to 1. Understanding and implementing the visions of the company. 2. Promoting and excelling in those visions.
My point is that, although Chicago has had 3 different coaches in the five years, promotions in ncaa soccer come by the way of stepping up to different levels (via D1,d2 etc). As you said, crediting coach sitch for masterful navigation
Is a proper description. But when you refer to someone coming in to not screw it up, I take offense.
I go back to my initial thoughts of hiring within. After Coach Babst moved on ( due to division 1 offer from Davidson)
Imho Chicago administration has taken a great approach in hiring head coaches with experience within the program.
Is Chicago a stepping stone for coaches who want to further their careers? Maybe.
Will coach sitch feel comfortable enough to continue the continued progress within the program? Maybe
From a division 3 soccer perspective, when you succeed, and you want to continue to grow, IMO the only way to achieve those goals are to look at offers that will complement your visions.
I just think Chicago, in spite of coaching changes, has done the right thing in hiring head coaches who have been part of the program in whatever capacity.
Quote from: 4samuy on December 07, 2022, 07:02:37 PM
Pn,
Not sure how take your thoughts. I work for a large financial corporation, where promotions are quick and fast. But most of those promotions are within the company due to 1. Understanding and implementing the visions of the company. 2. Promoting and excelling in those visions.
My point is that, although Chicago has had 3 different coaches in the five years, promotions in ncaa soccer come by the way of stepping up to different levels (via D1,d2 etc). As you said, crediting coach sitch for masterful navigation
Is a proper description. But when you refer to someone coming in to not screw it up, I take offense.
I go back to my initial thoughts of hiring within. After Coach Babson moved on ( due to division 1 offer from Davidson)
Imho Chicago administration has taken a great approach in hiring head coaches with experience within the program.
Is Chicago a stepping stone for coaches who want to further their careers? Maybe.
Will coach sitch feel comfortable enough to continue the continued progress within the program? Maybe
From a division 3 soccer perspective, when you succeed, and you want to continue to grow, IMO the only way to achieve those goals are to look at offers that will complement your visions.
I just think Chicago, in spite of coaching changes, has done the right thing in hiring head coaches who have been part of the program in whatever capacity.
Why do you do Pn?
I have no clue what you're talking about. I wasn't talking about whether she was a great hire or not, or whether Chicago does a good job promoting from within. I have zero doubts about her qualifications or that she was a great hire. I was commenting that few top programs have had so much turnover in a really short period of time...actually FOUR coaches in 10 years. And as far as I know she had no prior experience with the men's program, which again, is fine, and not a comment about how good of a hire she was. My point is that she was brand new for THIS team, and this team was a very senior-laden group that went to the Final 4 the year before and had as much or more talent than any team in the country. They didn't need Sir Alex Ferguson or Pat Summit...they needed a good coach who would mesh well with a team already put together and could make good coaching decisions in games and outside of games. Sitch may turn out to be a legendary coach....we shall see, but for at least this year she and the team knocked it out of the park. I mean, do we factor in at all the team she inherited? Have you decided that she's the best coach in the UAA or the country already? Or that she's better than Wyant at NYU who didn't inherit anything close to this Chicago team and had to build and recruit from the ground up?
I've always referred to you as pn, as have others. Sorry if it makes you question it :)
Weirdly confrontational, gents. You're not really disagreeing with each other.
But far be it from me to stand in the way of Internet Beef. :D
Obviously, after just one year, no one is claiming a dynasty. That said, as much as we've pretty much flat-lined a reaction to a female coach winning a natty, it's not like it's something to be ignored. At a bare minimum... bare... is that she can continue to recruit at a very high level.
As Simple Coach has chronicled with numerous interviews, recruiting challenges at the elite D3 level (academic) are almost the polar opposite of what a lot of D1 programs encounter. The fact that she can go out to players/parents with a message that she is a viable coach/program is huge.
Put another way, much more crass way, if she had sh*t the bed, this entire conversation would be sideways. I've experienced a horrible coach in college. It is a program crushing experience.
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 07, 2022, 05:48:17 PM
Kuiper, wow, you really know how to shut a guy down. Excellent stuff. I want to congratulate you on being named the PaulNewman D3soccer.com/D3 boards Newcomer of the Year. In all seriousness, I can ramp down and out knowing that you will be here to hold down the fort.
Thanks! But now that I think about it, that's the kind of award that might signal I'm spending way too much time here. Maybe I should be ramping down and out too!
By the way, for those of you wondering if coaches take a break after their season ends, I can assure you they are out on the recruiting trail almost immediately. At the MLS Next showcase in Indio, CA, this weekend, I saw Amherst (Serpone was there himself), Bates, Wesleyan, Conn College, Tufts, Case Western, Wash U, Brandeis, NYU, Rochester, Carnegie Mellon, Babson, Eastern, Pomona-Pitzer, Claremont-Mudd-Scripps, and Occidental and probably many more that I missed (there was no list posted as far as I could tell). Fans may still be heart broken after their teams lose, but coaches keep working!
100pct Kuiper and the Ammirers are getting ready for 2023 too.
My bad, and my apologies for not exercising a little more self-regulation. I got offended that someone found something offensive that I wrote when I didn't have the slightest intention to be offending in any way, or even controversial. I actually think another poster, maybe Kuiper, had noted that not screwing something up while adding your own touches in a positive manner is not easy to do in and of itself. It also can be frustrating when you think you've covered all the disclaimers so that what you write won't be misinterpreted, and yet that still happens. I had endorsed historic. I had celebrated the accomplishment and the socio-cultural significance, and I never suggested that she wasn't a superb hire or said anything close to commenting negatively about Chicago's hiring practices. I'm 63 and know a few things about best practices for companies, organizations, etc. I wasn't criticizing Chicago for having several coaches in a few years. If anything, I thought I was underscoring the strength of the Chicago program whereby three different coaches could take the Maroons to the Final 4 in a short span of time. The program has proven to be bigger than any one coach. I in no way intended to diminish what Sitch did this year, which had its own kind of heavy pressure, perhaps somewhat akin to when Dezotell inherited a great squad from Shapiro at Tufts. I was trying to say that we all can have more than one thought at a time. I think she clearly should be national COY. But I also think Wyant should be credited. I also think the Stevens, St Thomas, Williams, North Central, Mary Wash, UWEC, and W CT coaches should be credited. I agree that the huge deal is that it wasn't such a huge deal. I also agree that it is a huge deal. Multiple truths, especially when viewed from slightly different angles and points of view and when the question being asked isn't always the same question. I don't think it's a negative to point out that she came into a pretty attractive situation. I don't think it's an insult if I don't immediately put her ahead of Ryan Souders on my own personal "best D3 coaches" list.
Many of us here come to the board very alert to anything said about our team, and many of us aren't going to let comments go unanswered especially when there are perceived negative comments or some little wrinkle we think the offending poster left out or whatever. You literally can predict how long it will take to see one of us respond to something said about Chicago, Kenyon, any NESCAC, Calvin, Messiah, North Park, SLU, Hopkins, W&L, Catholic, etc, etc. And some of us can probably predict with some accuracy exactly what the defender of his or her own team will say to counter. Then there are newer encounters where the parties still don't have a great feel for the other.
I got a nice note via PM from a Messiah supporter who said he had enjoyed the videos I did with SC and some of my commentary here as a set up to very kindly chiding my interaction style on the board. He made a very good point that video better captures tone and nuance and that words alone can be more difficult to interpret. His points are very well taken, and I'm sure there are at least a few who were surprised to learn via the videos that I might not be just a total nutjob (except, of course, for the times when the videos proved I am a total nutjob). I don't know how long the poster has been on the boards so he may not realize that, sadly to say, my frequency of getting myself into negative confrontations has dropped considerably from past years. As we close the doors on the 2022 season I do hope that my participation is winding down with it, but to the extent that I do pull out the cleats again from time to time I will make a more conscious effort to be more generous in spirit and content.
Well, I can only speak for myself, but I've certainly noticed a change in approach from you over the years. I'd also wholeheartedly agree that message board "confrontations" are often the result of exactly what you said -- a misunderstanding or a heightened sense of disagreement due to the stripping out of tone and nuance.
And, yeah, maybe it's because you're now a tangible face and voice, but I think you're a little hard on yourself in some of these interactions. You are very direct and you ask people to back up their points/arguments. I, personally don't have a problem with that. It's good to have someone on here that keeps people honest.
Always good to reflect and be self-aware.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on December 08, 2022, 01:00:48 PM
Well, I can only speak for myself, but I've certainly noticed a change in approach from you over the years. I'd also wholeheartedly agree that message board "confrontations" are often the result of exactly what you said -- a misunderstanding or a heightened sense of disagreement due to the stripping out of tone and nuance.
And, yeah, maybe it's because you're now a tangible face and voice, but I think you're a little hard on yourself in some of these interactions. You are very direct and you ask people to back up their points/arguments. I, personally don't have a problem with that. It's good to have someone on here that keeps people honest.
Always good to reflect and be self-aware.
Much appreciated, Hop92.
I do tend to be pretty direct and I am a stickler for inconsistencies, apparent inconsistencies, imagined inconsistencies, imagined logic fails, etc, etc. I know I also can come across a little too raw or "oft-putting" for some. Probably partly a function of my profession but also just consistent with my dynamics with friends, family, co-workers, etc. I firmly believe that all of us repeat our typical roles in whatever groups we are in. I used to participate in something called Tavistock that some corporations also use where you put 10-12 people in a room with no direction and no rules and within 20 minutes basically everyone takes on the role they usually do. So here on this board we have our peacemakers, our hall monitors/RAs, correctors, the encyclopedias, the address the elephant in the room types, the elitists and name-droppers (probably most of us at some point or another), the more hypersensitive folks that stand out among an already hypersensitive membership, the energetic, bright-eyed newbies, the long-term lurker, first-time caller people, and the no longer energetic, bright-eyed members after their team has taken a knock or three, etc, etc.
Really can't stand those name droppers trying to sound cool...
I remember saying that exact thing to my buddy 3 time All American Smooth Montacer on our way from playing Brandt at Messiah before tackling Coach Joe Bean at Wheaton in the final 4. Coach Durocher always used to tell is to walk softly and carry a big kick.
Name droppers are the worst :)
https://sports.yahoo.com/can-a-woman-coach-men-to-be-champions-u-chicagos-julianne-sitch-proved-it-can-be-done-205421962.html
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 08, 2022, 09:57:19 PM
https://sports.yahoo.com/can-a-woman-coach-men-to-be-champions-u-chicagos-julianne-sitch-proved-it-can-be-done-205421962.html
Nice article, but Amherst fans might be interested to know that in an alternate universe, Chicago, not Amherst, apparently won in the semis in 2021 and lost in the finals.
Also, as with most soccer stories in mainstream sports sites it's best to avoid the comments. D3 soccer is barely at the level of intramural sports according to some of the esteemed contributors.
Quote from: Kuiper on December 09, 2022, 12:26:25 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 08, 2022, 09:57:19 PM
https://sports.yahoo.com/can-a-woman-coach-men-to-be-champions-u-chicagos-julianne-sitch-proved-it-can-be-done-205421962.html
Nice article, but Amherst fans might be interested to know that in an alternate universe, Chicago, not Amherst, apparently won in the semis in 2021 and lost in the finals.
Also, as with most soccer stories in mainstream sports sites it's best to avoid the comments. D3 soccer is barely at the level of intramural sports according to some of the esteemed contributors.
It could be ultimate Amhate, the Orwellian history re-write, but we can move on. Already thinking about 2023 and getting to see more games at the billiard table, that is Hitchcock Field.
Quote from: Kuiper on December 09, 2022, 12:26:25 AM
Also, as with most soccer stories in mainstream sports sites it's best to avoid the comments. D3 soccer is barely at the level of intramural sports according to some of the esteemed contributors.
I do so miss the pre-Internet days when you had to be introduced to ignorant people one at a time.
Yet another historic day for coaches appointed in August.
Morocco 1 Portugal 0
Morocco played with so much heart, which is the #1 thing I love, and look for.
Quote from: Another Mom on December 10, 2022, 01:59:02 PM
Morocco played with so much heart, which is the #1 thing I love, and look for.
For those who need a team to support....Morocco was the first Country to formally recognize the USA in 1777... Time we recognize these Amazing ballers.
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 06, 2022, 03:49:32 PM
Smart, savvy folks who aren't dominated by prestige, elitism, and what the neighbors will think are good at finding the hidden gems...like a CWRU or a Rochester or Stevens or WPI, or at the LAC level a Denison, a Whitman, a Centre, a Rhodes, etc...You might give up some sunny days and 40 to 50 degrees in temperature and 15-20 ranking spots in USNWR, but the academics are just as good in most cases (and maybe sometimes better), athletic opportunities might be a bit more attractive, and you might get some very helpful merit money. Even for those of us who realize rankings shouldn't be so focal and overwhelming in our minds, it's very difficult at least for people within a particular demographic to truly break free from the false idol of rankings. We learn about and live them as though they have some hard reality...and the impact of that is huge and leads to categorizing schools in ways we basically accept as real that aren't real....like "so and so is a top 5 school" or "top 10 school" or a "that one's OK, it's still top 40 or 50." And the industry knows how powerful the mythology is because some of them are laser-focused on improving their ranking...and why not when doing so yields very clear results, more applicants, lower admissions rates, more money, better facilities, and whatever else goes along with substantial reputation boosts (see Colby, Richmond, Denison, etc). We assign different meanings to a school that's ranked #5 versus one that's #25 even though your kid's chances of as good an outcome and in many cases even better outcomes (med school, law school, careers) may be significantly better at the one ranked #25 or even #75. This stuff gets so ingrained we often don't even realize what we're doing. Someone could tell me his kid is seriously looking at Gustavus Adolphus, and my kneejerk response might be something like "Oh wow, that's nice. St Peter, MN, right? Is she considering Grinnell out that way as well?" The frames and filters we "wear" everyday are so much more dominant than we think they are.
But be careful. Your kid may actually listen and ultimately disappoint you. I loved Rochester and "discovered" it in our family. In my mind (and I suspect this is often the case with CWRU) I considered UR to be the almost perfect high-end safety school for my daughter...and good enough for my ego if that's how things played out. Nevertheless, when she had all of your choices in front of her after all the acceptances, wait lists, and rejections came in, I could not help wanting her to pick Macalester, Bryn Mawr, Barnard, or NYU. It was all ego, ego, ego. I knew UR was every bit as good as any of the others and in hindsight she and we never had any regrets (jokes about paywalls aside), but I still imagined lukewarm social responses when others would hear about her choice...like, with a slightly puzzled look "Oh, Rochester, nice school" and then watching that couple move on to the parents jabbering about Dartmouth.
Back to CWRU....I think you are correct @Kuiper that the medical excellence now synonymous with Cleveland because of Cleveland Clinic and also to some degree Case Medical has a positive contagion effect on CWRU in general. Cleveland in terms of medicine is considered absolutely on a level with Boston, San Fran, Baltimore, NYC, Rochester, MN, Toronto, etc....but all things being equal, how often is a kid who holds acceptances from U Michigan, UVA, CMU, Wash U, Emory, and CWRU gonna choose CWRU? Not often unless the money difference is extreme and a critical factor.
I had been meaning to respond to this for awhile. I'm not really sure this is the thread for it anyway, but I didn't want it to fall away completely unnoticed. I agree with much of it. There are some prestige driven professions where undergrad school rankings matter, but not as many as people think and college is becoming what high school used to be for most job seekers. A job seeker's grad school is now on the top of most resumes.
The interesting thing is how regional reputation/rankings is even for so-called national schools. My assumption is that for people in certain areas of New England and the Mid-Atlantic, the difference between the various NESCAC schools + other small LACs in the area is really meaningful to them. By contrast, in LA, I think there are a lot of highly-educated people who, if they have even heard of all of the NESCAC schools, would kind of view all but a couple of them as completely interchangeable and would probably confuse them with Bennington, for instance. That's not to say LA folks aren't prestige focused, but for a variety of reasons (distance, weather, strong state school options nearby), liberal arts colleges aren't as widely chosen, percentage-wise. Moreover, when they do leave SoCal for an LAC, they are widely-dispersed in their destination. That means that most people don't know enough kids who have even considered the Maine schools, let alone gone there, for instance, to have established a pecking order in their minds. It's kind of freeing in a way.
Quote from: Kuiper on December 11, 2022, 08:36:59 PM
The interesting thing is how regional reputation/rankings is even for so-called national schools. My assumption is that for people in certain areas of New England and the Mid-Atlantic, the difference between the various NESCAC schools + other small LACs in the area is really meaningful to them. By contrast, in LA, I think there are a lot of highly-educated people who, if they have even heard of all of the NESCAC schools, would kind of view all but a couple of them as completely interchangeable and would probably confuse them with Bennington, for instance. That's not to say LA folks aren't prestige focused, but for a variety of reasons (distance, weather, strong state school options nearby), liberal arts colleges aren't as widely chosen, percentage-wise. Moreover, when they do leave SoCal for an LAC, they are widely-dispersed in their destination. That means that most people don't know enough kids who have even considered the Maine schools, let alone gone there, for instance, to have established a pecking order in their minds. It's kind of freeing in a way.
I agree. There is a huge provincialism about all of these schools. While the NESCACs, at least most of them, are well known nationally, when you travel around to different areas they aren't put on a pedestal the same way they often are in the Northeast. I grew up in NJ, and I certainly knew most of the NESCACs. I never heard of Washington and Lee until I opened the big book of colleges we all used in the 90s. No one from my public NJ h.s. had ever applied to Washington and Lee. As someone ranked fairly highly in my class, my teachers, guidance counselors, etc., were shocked I was going to a school they had never heard of. They kept thinking I was going to Washington University, or Washington College, or Mary Washington, or George Washington.
When I graduated and moved back to NJ and then Manhattan for work, W&L was still pretty unknown in most circles. There was no real boost for it, like there was for Amherst or other NESCACs. However, as soon as I started making connections in my industry, and found some companies headquartered in the south, I was in a lot more demand. W&L carried a whole different reputation with companies in Georgia, TN, FL, NC, AL, etc. As I moved to one of those companies, and eventually sat on some hiring boards, it became obvious that W&L grads were preferred. Amherst, Grinnell, Tufts, etc.... nowhere near the same cache they held in the Northeast.
So yeah, "National Liberal Arts School" is correct, but if you want that recognition boost, think about where you want to be after college as well. I don't think W&L is going to play any better in Oregon than it did in NYC. But I don't think the C-M-S names are going to play as well in GA as they will in California. Amherst probably plays well nationally, but not as well as it does in NYC and Boston, let alone a school like Hamilton or Trinity (CT). All are great schools, but how well they play after graduation is very much still a matter of location, or maybe an alumni in a key position or two.