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Looks like the new Kenyon hire has PN's amp turned all the way up.  Not that I'm complaining!

Quote from: stlawus on July 19, 2023, 06:44:51 PM
Looks like the new Kenyon hire has PN's amp turned all the way up.  Not that I'm complaining!

+k...

Let's hear about the Saints' forecast as you begin the post-MS era.

We gonna get a Kenyon vs SLU national final? 

I'd certainly accept that scenario.  The Saints should be good, but I think the league will be a little more balanced this season.  I would accept Vassar being picked 1st given some of the 5th years they have returning.   SLU had some pretty significant injuries last year that saw several first years get thrown into the fire, so with the players returning that missed a lot of time last year in combination with the returning group they should be in pretty good shape on paper.   Anything short of a LL final appearance would probably be considered disappointing, but they will have a much bigger target on their backs this season given they've gone back to back.

D3 SUCCESS STORY: According to Jeff Milby at 840 WHAS sports (on Twitter), Orlando SC's @RealKyleSmith24 played for @loucityfc in 2016-2018 ... and he signed from an open tryout, after playing for D3 @TransyMSoccer, and worked as an accountant on the side. Last night for @OrlandoCitySC he faced the world's greatest player, Lionel Messi.

Lots of questions boys, Lots of questions.
Will Chicago take its Chip and use it to go another level like Messiah and Tufts did, or will it go the Middlebury/RichardStocton route?
Can anyone stop the NESCAC teams who are all getting that Oil Money from overseas to boost their programs? Can Hamilton build on an almost great season and take another step?
Will U of R stop charging fans $9.99 pay wall to watch their games? Can U of R keep making the dance on a shaky resume?
(Mostly tongue and cheek ppl from Richard Stockon/Middlebury/Uof R. Don't b mad).

Quote from: Saint of Old on August 03, 2023, 12:31:47 PM
Will U of R stop charging fans $9.99 pay wall to watch their games? Can U of R keep making the dance on a shaky resume?
(Mostly tongue and cheek ppl from Richard Stockon/Middlebury/Uof R. Don't b mad).

Everybody on D3boards.com rags on Rochester for its paywall, and that's been happening for years. And it's a thing in all sports; if anything, the basketball posters are more vehement in their objections to the U of R's paywall policy than are the soccer posters. I think that Yellowjackets fans are pretty used to it by now.

It still reminds me of that scene in Moneyball when David Justice asks Jonah Hill's character where the team is seeing the vending machine money they have to pay themselves.  I'd like to know where UR is seeing the money from streaming.  If essentially every other school can come up with ways to fund streaming services without charging viewers you cannot in good faith tell me that UR is a unique situation that requires them to do so.

Quote from: stlawus on August 03, 2023, 04:16:54 PM
It still reminds me of that scene in Moneyball when David Justice asks Jonah Hill's character where the team is seeing the vending machine money they have to pay themselves.  I'd like to know where UR is seeing the money from streaming.  If essentially every other school can come up with ways to fund streaming services without charging viewers you cannot in good faith tell me that UR is a unique situation that requires them to do so.

Well, the entire Landmark conference just joined UR. I'm just hopeful that is not the trend.

Quote from: jknezek on August 03, 2023, 04:38:59 PM

Quote from: stlawus on August 03, 2023, 04:16:54 PM
It still reminds me of that scene in Moneyball when David Justice asks Jonah Hill's character where the team is seeing the vending machine money they have to pay themselves.  I'd like to know where UR is seeing the money from streaming.  If essentially every other school can come up with ways to fund streaming services without charging viewers you cannot in good faith tell me that UR is a unique situation that requires them to do so.

Well, the entire Landmark conference just joined UR. I'm just hopeful that is not the trend.

Henceforth know as the PayPerView Conference.

SC.

Quote from: SimpleCoach on August 04, 2023, 06:39:29 AM

Quote from: jknezek on August 03, 2023, 04:38:59 PM

Quote from: stlawus on August 03, 2023, 04:16:54 PM
It still reminds me of that scene in Moneyball when David Justice asks Jonah Hill's character where the team is seeing the vending machine money they have to pay themselves.  I'd like to know where UR is seeing the money from streaming.  If essentially every other school can come up with ways to fund streaming services without charging viewers you cannot in good faith tell me that UR is a unique situation that requires them to do so.

Well, the entire Landmark conference just joined UR. I'm just hopeful that is not the trend.

Henceforth know as the PayPerView Conference.

SC.

So, Imma be honest... I haven't been as diligent watching the YouTubes of late.

SimpleCoach... I'd be EXTREMELY interested to know... What do Landmark coaches think of going Pay Wall? My gut tells me they aren't all that happy because the lack of visibility for players to pop in and check out their teams would seem like a really negative development from a recruiting standpoint.

(modified by GS for formatting)

Apparently games will be available for free 72 hours after they are completed. If you have a landmark affiliated .edu account you can get FLOSPORTS for the low price of $9.99 a month.

Wasn't sure where to throw this but news coming out of the SUNYAC and Empire 8. Brockport and Geneseo are switching conferences starting in the fall of 2024.

Empire 8 will now consist of 11 teams (Alfred University, Elmira College, Hartwick College, Houghton University, Keuka College, Nazareth University, Russell Sage College, St. John Fisher University, SUNY Brockport, SUNY Geneseo and Utica University), while the SUNYAC drops to 8 (Cortland, Oneonta, Plattsburgh, Potsdam, Buff State, Fredonia, New Paltz, Oswego) unless there are other changes in the works.

https://empire8.com/news/2023/8/21/general-suny-brockport-and-suny-geneseo-to-join-empire-8-2024-25-start-date-anticipated.aspx (https://empire8.com/news/2023/8/21/general-suny-brockport-and-suny-geneseo-to-join-empire-8-2024-25-start-date-anticipated.aspx)

Don't look now but Calvin is absolutely loaded...and huge.  Wunder back at GK at 6'6, a bunch of 6'3 and 6'2 dudes, Akintade back, and Chris Schau returns for his 9th campaign.  Impressive geographical reach recruiting-wise that probably surpasses Messiah.

Calvin appears to have a brand new field (artificial?).  The schedule looks favorable as well.  On the road for Chicago and Ohio Northern but get OWU and JCU at home.

Projection....20-1-1 with Sweet 16 as floor (would be massive disappointment) and national title as ceiling.  Does Souders finally get a still hungry Calvin program to the top of the mountain?

Any updates on D3soccer.com?  Gone?  New owner?  Can we assume the scoreboard and daily game schedule with teams and times will not be operable?  Will the site remain accessible as it stands now in terms of finding historical information?

Trial run...wanna test out what happens if I allot 25 minutes or less to going around the horn...

The UAA kind of messes up reviews by region, so off the top let me say that the UAA has fallen further behind NESCAC.  Chicago has separated from the rest of the UAA...with imo considerable distance between the Maroons and then, who?  NYU?  Rochester?  NYU did hand Chicago it's only blemish of the 2022 season in the much ballyhooded battle of D3's women head coaches, but still don't trust them in huge spots.  The superstar for the Violets needs to be more of a leader, but can he do that?  I will say that the UAA is the conference most likely to see a team flip from the top to the cellar very quickly, and vice-versa.  Brandeis went to two Final Fours in the last decade and found itself alone in the basement last year.  Btw, how about that "dine and dash" move by Stich with the trophy packed in her luggage?

Region 1 and 2....NESCAC, NESCAC, NESCAC...I counted off five teams -- Amherst, Tufts, Williams, Bowdoin, Middlebury -- and realized I hadn't even gotten to the national champ from 2 years ago.  So also Conn Coll with a ton of talent looking to rebound, and then Wesleyan and Hamilton making big noise until stumbling towards the end.  Colby and Bates can get better each year and still find moving up a couple of spots formidable.  And finally, Trinity (CT).  Babson is the perhaps the biggest non-NESCAC name that sticks out.  Eyes will be on Western CT, a team that went undefeated and still couldn't make the tournament.  Western CT bolstered the schedule with Vassar, Wesleyan and Williams, but the Wolves would be better off losing a few and winning the conference AQ.  Will Emerson follow up on a surprisingly strong season?  Doubtful.  Maybe MIT, WPI, or Coast Guard stepping up?  What other "mid-major" will force themselves into the mix?  St Joe's (ME) or the Connecticut version.  Johnson and Wales appears to have a very soft schedule.  Endicott often seems like a sleeper.

In Region 3 it's Oneonta, Cortland, Rochester, and SLU.  No disrespect to Vassar, who could win the LL, but going deep seems unlikely.  Another SUNYAC could emerge, but your guess is as good or better than mine in terms of who that might be.  Brockport and New Paltz had their moments and iirc some of us thought Brockport deserved a bid last year.

In Regions 4 and 5, Messiah is the biggest dog and should be a top 3-5 team nationally all season.  Otherwise, I think Stevens gets the nod over NYU and Montclair St mainly just because I trust Stevens more.  Rowan always seems to be in the mix.  F&M and Hopkins should duel in the Centennial and be right there with Stevens looking up at the Falcons.  Is Catholic closer to all of the above or to the rest of the pack?  Gotta see more from the Cardinals before I slot them at or near the top tier.  Another team or three will emerge but I've got no clue who they might be.

Region 6 is Washington & Lee's territory.  Can Mary Washington duplicate last year's stunning run?  Who could have predicted them getting through OWU, Amherst, and Bowdoin to reach the Final Four, especially with the last two played at Amherst?  Christopher Newport and Lynchburg will hover around the top 15-25 range most of the season.  Who else?  Would be great to see a Sewanee or Rhodes take another big step, or maybe Centre or Emory are rejuvenated.  I see VWU, Oglethorpe, and Covenant as spoilers more than sleepers.

Region 7 is basically the NCAC and OAC with a dash of CMU and RHIT/Hanover.  Kenyon, OWU, and Denison should lead the NCAC with one of the US-231 Indiana squads (DePauw and Wabash) looking to crash the party.  In the the OAC, it's JCU, ONU, and Otterbein.  CMU is hard to predict, but difficult to be too optimistic when they should not have made the tourney last year which was confirmed by a 1st round 5-0 shellacking at the hands of mighty Calvin. 

Speaking of Calvin, among Region 8 programs, the Knights should be right there with Chicago and North Park as threats to Messiah and NESCAC heavyweights.  North Central would appear to be the only other Region 8 outfit with a chance to displace of the Big Three.

In Region 9, I'm gonna give the nod to Gustavus Adolphus.  St Olaf with strong returning talent is a big wild card given an unexpected coaching change.  St John's might be a sleeper, and we're all on pins and needles waiting to see how the Blugolds of UWEC fare with a bigger target on their back.  Luther and Loras should dominate the American Rivers Conf but will either be good enough to trouble the star programs in Region 8.

For Region 10, see @kuiper.

And....I went 13 minutes over lol.

Quote from: PaulNewman on August 27, 2023, 03:25:11 PM
Any updates on D3soccer.com?  Gone?  New owner?  Can we assume the scoreboard and daily game schedule with teams and times will not be operable?  Will the site remain accessible as it stands now in terms of finding historical information?

Bumping this since got stuck at bottom of page.

Simple Coach needs to get PN on the Youtube channel soon, he's about to burst at the seams!   Great stuff as always PN, can tell you're just as excited as me for the season to start. 

Not much there I disagree with.  I could quibble about Vassar I suppose, but everything in there checks out.  You can't call me biased after the take I'm about to make, as right now I see Amherst as betting odds favorite down the stretch.  They had a lot of sophomores last year who were key contributors, and bring back most.  It can be difficult replacing leadership but they have the talent and arguably the best recruit of the cycle.

Quote from: stlawus on August 27, 2023, 06:00:24 PM
Simple Coach needs to get PN on the Youtube channel soon, he's about to burst at the seams!   Great stuff as always PN, can tell you're just as excited as me for the season to start. 

Not much there I disagree with.  I could quibble about Vassar I suppose, but everything in there checks out.  You can't call me biased after the take I'm about to make, as right now I see Amherst as betting odds favorite down the stretch.  They had a lot of sophomores last year who were key contributors, and bring back most.  It can be difficult replacing leadership but they have the talent and arguably the best recruit of the cycle.

@stlawus, yes, I assume we experience a similar dread when that last second ticks off our team's season and you realize you never want to feel that pain again while simultaneously lamenting the wait for another season.

I do find the suggestion that folks post less a little bizarre. Well, I get wanting me to shut up, but in general when the total number of participants (and viewers) is relatively small with rather limited activity big picture I would think more in this instance is more than less.

At any rate, I meant to mention in the longer review post that not having Mr.Right here is another big loss.  I say that knowing he wasn't ever really fond of me, and to be fair, I didn't send him a Xmas card every year either.  That said, and despite my love/hate psychosocial ambivalence about NESCAC as an American cultural phenomenon, I doubt NESCAC has ever been better at least in terms of depth.  He would love breaking down all the teams, including the bottom ones.  But any conference having at least 5-6 credible national contenders provides a rich database for a talented commentator like Mr.Right. 

Maybe he'll pop in when least expected with a full breakdown of the week's NESCAC tilts.

Btw, I probably am wrong about Vassar.  And that's mostly because I think of Vassar as closer to Oberlin and Reed than NESCAC and UAA schools in terms of vibe...which means athletics are even less important than they are at other higher end academic D3s.  I'm amazed that Vassar does as well as it does.

Since @PaulNewman asked nicely (although I'm tempted to quote Paul Newman from the "Go WEST" thread - "I hear the internet works pretty well on the [East] Coast too"  ;)), I'll chip in on Region X:

St. Thomas is the odds-on favorite to be the top team in Region X.  They return every regular starter from the team that lost to Chicago in Round 3 of the NCAA Tourney other than Ayomide Salako.  That is a big loss -- after all, he had 10 goals and 8 assists last year, starting 17 out of 20 games -- but that was only good enough for the third highest point total on the team behind Taty Aleman (20 goals and 5 assists) and Daniel Castro (17 goals and 4 assists), both of whom are back.  Salako's loss might be more in terms of serving as a big, burly, target forward pivot who occupied a central defender or two and allowed Aleman and Castro to have freedom to do their magic.  The most promising long-term replacement on the roster could be freshman Daniel Vargas, a physical forward from Katy, Texas who scored 17 goals for his high school team last year and was named second team All-Region.  It may depend upon how quickly he can adjust to the college game as to whether he plays much of a role this year though.  More immediately, seniors Ian Alvarez (6 goals and 3 assists) and Dany Ramirez (1 goal and 5 assists) could pick up some of Salako's goals and assists, even if they play different roles at forward.  Another possible impactful addition might be Leonardo Mansur Scarparo, a Brazilian transfer from DII Notre Dame College in Ohio.  Regardless, this is nit picking.  St. Thomas is stacked.  They might beat themselves by whining to the referees and getting into scraps with opponents, but they won't likely be beat by a more talented or experienced squad.  Trinity could reclaim its mojo and challenge St. Thomas in the SCAC (especially if Michael Meese recovers his pre-injury form), but every other top Region X team lost some of its front-line players and will be counting on players to make a leap.

There's both a wildcard and a couple of additional dark horses in Socal.  The wildcard is C-M-S, which could pull itself together after last year's truncated season.  It has talent, both returning and new, a new coach in Edward Cartee with lots of championship-level experience at Trinity, and should be plenty motivated.  The darkhorse is Cal Lutheran, which has seven returning seniors back as grad students.  I don't think that it has a top-end scorer to dominate the way you need to in order to win comfortably, but their experience throughout the lineup might allow them to manage a lot of games and rise above in close games.  One additional darkhorse might be Pomona-Pitzer.  They have some young players who were really strong and in their first scrimmage this pre-season, a big freshman forward from Bend, Oregon had a hat trick to beat a local community college 4-2 on the road.  I wouldn't read too much into that result (a Labor Day weekend trip to Texas will provide an early test), but if he proved to be the real deal, they might make noise in the SCIAC.  It's probably a year or two early for them though.  Oxy is the more likely immediate challenger to the historic Redlands-CMS leaders this year (with the caveat that I haven't see Redlands' roster yet this year).

In the Northwest, Willamette loses its leading scorer Pierce Galloway, but Jett Starr returns as the second leading scorer and it returns basically its entire defense (which was inexperienced last year) plus its starting GK.  Pacific Lutheran returns its top two scorers, Craig Johnson and Trevor Thompson, but loses a few of its outside defenders.  So, it feels like both teams may be strong in the area where the other team is strong and neither side is set up to take advantage of the other's weakness.  I also don't see anyone challenging them.

Suggestion to think about....

Kuiper covers Reg 10

Sager does Reg 8 and maybe 9 or splits 9 (like Sager takes MIAA and Kuiper American Rivers?)

I take Reg 7 and maybe temporarily 1 (or split 1 with  OldNed, College Soccer Observer, etc)

jknezek or whoever jknezek thinks could do Reg 6

Some combo of a Messiah person, SC, Hop92, Ejay, paclassics, etc covering Reg 5 and 4

The SLU/LL crew on Reg 3

Maybe a Babson person and/or talk blooter442 into a return tour of duty for Reg 2

The above is just a mock suggestion...

It is far easier to talk about 1 or 2 regions halfway intelligently than 9 or 10...

Quote from: PaulNewman on August 27, 2023, 07:16:08 PM

Btw, I probably am wrong about Vassar.  And that's mostly because I think of Vassar as closer to Oberlin and Reed than NESCAC and UAA schools in terms of vibe...which means athletics are even less important than they are at other higher end academic D3s.  I'm amazed that Vassar does as well as it does.

Vassar has only even attempted to seriously compete for approximately 15 years, prior to the mid-00s I would have agreed with you. That is the place that Bard is in now - institutionally they mostly forget they even have intercollegiate athletics, let alone support them appropriately. I think Vassar has a much higher ceiling with its academic rankings and $$ in the bank - NESCAC-level success. They will need to sweet talk some of their wealthy alums into donating to the Brewers cause.

Quote from: PaulNewman on August 26, 2023, 12:52:35 PM
Calvin appears to have a brand new field (artificial?).  The schedule looks favorable as well.  On the road for Chicago and Ohio Northern but get OWU and JCU at home.

Yes, unfortunately Calvin does have a new field and it is artificial turf.  I get why they did it, but I don't have to like it.   :)

I am assuming we need to depend on ncaa.com and Massey for the schedule.

As a dilletante that sort of follows the SCAC I am in total agreement with Kuiper's assessment of St. Thomas.   I hear Trinity has some back line height coming in (frustratingly, they still have not posted a roster) and that Meese is expected to return to form if he can avoid the injury bug (and lordy, is he due).  Not sure they have a solve at keeper; JC Vidales, who started the most games last year, played his fifth season already and the other regular starter (Wilman) was a senior. 

Quote from: PaulNewman on August 27, 2023, 04:59:00 PM
Trial run...wanna test out what happens if I allot 25 minutes or less to going around the horn...

The UAA kind of messes up reviews by region, so off the top let me say that the UAA has fallen further behind NESCAC.  Chicago has separated from the rest of the UAA...with imo considerable distance between the Maroons and then, who?  NYU?  Rochester?  NYU did hand Chicago it's only blemish of the 2022 season in the much ballyhooded battle of D3's women head coaches, but still don't trust them in huge spots.  The superstar for the Violets needs to be more of a leader, but can he do that?  I will say that the UAA is the conference most likely to see a team flip from the top to the cellar very quickly, and vice-versa.  Brandeis went to two Final Fours in the last decade and found itself alone in the basement last year.  Btw, how about that "dine and dash" move by Stich with the trophy packed in her luggage?

Region 1 and 2....NESCAC, NESCAC, NESCAC...I counted off five teams -- Amherst, Tufts, Williams, Bowdoin, Middlebury -- and realized I hadn't even gotten to the national champ from 2 years ago.  So also Conn Coll with a ton of talent looking to rebound, and then Wesleyan and Hamilton making big noise until stumbling towards the end.  Colby and Bates can get better each year and still find moving up a couple of spots formidable.  And finally, Trinity (CT).  Babson is the perhaps the biggest non-NESCAC name that sticks out.  Eyes will be on Western CT, a team that went undefeated and still couldn't make the tournament.  Western CT bolstered the schedule with Vassar, Wesleyan and Williams, but the Wolves would be better off losing a few and winning the conference AQ.  Will Emerson follow up on a surprisingly strong season?  Doubtful.  Maybe MIT, WPI, or Coast Guard stepping up?  What other "mid-major" will force themselves into the mix?  St Joe's (ME) or the Connecticut version.  Johnson and Wales appears to have a very soft schedule.  Endicott often seems like a sleeper.

In Region 3 it's Oneonta, Cortland, Rochester, and SLU.  No disrespect to Vassar, who could win the LL, but going deep seems unlikely.  Another SUNYAC could emerge, but your guess is as good or better than mine in terms of who that might be.  Brockport and New Paltz had their moments and iirc some of us thought Brockport deserved a bid last year.

In Regions 4 and 5, Messiah is the biggest dog and should be a top 3-5 team nationally all season.  Otherwise, I think Stevens gets the nod over NYU and Montclair St mainly just because I trust Stevens more.  Rowan always seems to be in the mix.  F&M and Hopkins should duel in the Centennial and be right there with Stevens looking up at the Falcons.  Is Catholic closer to all of the above or to the rest of the pack?  Gotta see more from the Cardinals before I slot them at or near the top tier.  Another team or three will emerge but I've got no clue who they might be.

Region 6 is Washington & Lee's territory.  Can Mary Washington duplicate last year's stunning run?  Who could have predicted them getting through OWU, Amherst, and Bowdoin to reach the Final Four, especially with the last two played at Amherst?  Christopher Newport and Lynchburg will hover around the top 15-25 range most of the season.  Who else?  Would be great to see a Sewanee or Rhodes take another big step, or maybe Centre or Emory are rejuvenated.  I see VWU, Oglethorpe, and Covenant as spoilers more than sleepers.

Region 7 is basically the NCAC and OAC with a dash of CMU and RHIT/Hanover.  Kenyon, OWU, and Denison should lead the NCAC with one of the US-231 Indiana squads (DePauw and Wabash) looking to crash the party.  In the the OAC, it's JCU, ONU, and Otterbein.  CMU is hard to predict, but difficult to be too optimistic when they should not have made the tourney last year which was confirmed by a 1st round 5-0 shellacking at the hands of mighty Calvin. 

Speaking of Calvin, among Region 8 programs, the Knights should be right there with Chicago and North Park as threats to Messiah and NESCAC heavyweights.  North Central would appear to be the only other Region 8 outfit with a chance to displace of the Big Three.

In Region 9, I'm gonna give the nod to Gustavus Adolphus.  St Olaf with strong returning talent is a big wild card given an unexpected coaching change.  St John's might be a sleeper, and we're all on pins and needles waiting to see how the Blugolds of UWEC fare with a bigger target on their back.  Luther and Loras should dominate the American Rivers Conf but will either be good enough to trouble the star programs in Region 8.

For Region 10, see @kuiper.

And....I went 13 minutes over lol.

I love the idea to divide the regions among current users PN, but unfortunately I'm not going to be able to help.  My son is an assistant now at a D1 school, so most of my soccer watching will be at the D1 level now and I don't think i'm going to have much leftover time to watch D3 games. 

Quote from: PaulNewman on August 27, 2023, 08:05:16 PM
Suggestion to think about....

Kuiper covers Reg 10

Sager does Reg 8 and maybe 9 or splits 9 (like Sager takes MIAA and Kuiper American Rivers?)

I take Reg 7 and maybe temporarily 1 (or split 1 with  OldNed, College Soccer Observer, etc)

jknezek or whoever jknezek thinks could do Reg 6

Some combo of a Messiah person, SC, Hop92, Ejay, paclassics, etc covering Reg 5 and 4

The SLU/LL crew on Reg 3

Maybe a Babson person and/or talk blooter442 into a return tour of duty for Reg 2

The above is just a mock suggestion...

It is far easier to talk about 1 or 2 regions halfway intelligently than 9 or 10...

I actually threw this idea out when SC was starting his podcasting, saying we could have folks cover Regions and report out. It was when we were helping him brainstorm and I think it just got caught up in the wash.

I'm definitely in for following Centennial and MAC-F and MAC-C... I think if Landmark keeps its games up for 72 hours before paywalling, i can commit to checking in on them, as well.

Same here — I like this idea

————

:)

Quote from: Hopkins92 on August 28, 2023, 10:23:36 AM

Quote from: PaulNewman on August 27, 2023, 08:05:16 PM
Suggestion to think about....

Kuiper covers Reg 10

Sager does Reg 8 and maybe 9 or splits 9 (like Sager takes MIAA and Kuiper American Rivers?)

I take Reg 7 and maybe temporarily 1 (or split 1 with  OldNed, College Soccer Observer, etc)

jknezek or whoever jknezek thinks could do Reg 6

Some combo of a Messiah person, SC, Hop92, Ejay, paclassics, etc covering Reg 5 and 4

The SLU/LL crew on Reg 3

Maybe a Babson person and/or talk blooter442 into a return tour of duty for Reg 2

The above is just a mock suggestion...

It is far easier to talk about 1 or 2 regions halfway intelligently than 9 or 10...

I actually threw this idea out when SC was starting his podcasting, saying we could have folks cover Regions and report out. It was when we were helping him brainstorm and I think it just got caught up in the wash.

I'm definitely in for following Centennial and MAC-F and MAC-C... I think if Landmark keeps its games up for 72 hours before paywalling, i can commit to checking in on them, as well.

Quote from: PaulNewman on August 27, 2023, 08:05:16 PM


It is far easier to talk about 1 or 2 regions halfway intelligently than 9 or 10...

And as I've stated in the past, this is why I struggle when considering throwing my hat in the National Poll process. I just don't have the bandwidth to credibly assess more than the 2 or 3 regions on the east coast.

Quote from: PaulNewman on August 27, 2023, 08:05:16 PM
Suggestion to think about....

Kuiper covers Reg 10

Sager does Reg 8 and maybe 9 or splits 9 (like Sager takes MIAA and Kuiper American Rivers?)

I take Reg 7 and maybe temporarily 1 (or split 1 with  OldNed, College Soccer Observer, etc)

jknezek or whoever jknezek thinks could do Reg 6

Some combo of a Messiah person, SC, Hop92, Ejay, paclassics, etc covering Reg 5 and 4

The SLU/LL crew on Reg 3

Maybe a Babson person and/or talk blooter442 into a return tour of duty for Reg 2

The above is just a mock suggestion...

It is far easier to talk about 1 or 2 regions halfway intelligently than 9 or 10...

I've already been doing Region X for the last year, although I do pipe up every now or then about games/teams in other regions too because it's a bit more fun to post where the board is more active.  That's the issue in posts reporting about games/news/developments in a specific region -- the readership can be quite siloed, making the task feel pretty lonely.  This is especially true about Region X and the Go West thread, which has maybe one other person who sometimes pipes up about his team during the season.  I suspect it's a resource for people doing the rankings, for recruits and their parents checking up on schools and activity in one of Region X's conferences, and for interested people from other regions of the country come tournament time, but these kinds of "reporting" posts don't tend to generate much discussion anywhere on the board and therefore don't work as well in a discussion forum.  In that sense, it might be better suited for D3soccer.com (if it had survived) or on a home page of Simple Coach's "All Things DIII Soccer" podcast as columns or as blog posts, although that might make them seem too formal and like work, not generating the feedback that encourages the poster to keep them up either (other than possibly providing reports of page views and maybe sharing in the spoils of SC's influencer status).  The posts would draw more eyeballs/discussion on a "National Perspectives" thread, but that would get awfully messy and make the thread less attractive to those just wanting to talk about the top teams. 

Quote from: PaulNewman on August 27, 2023, 04:59:00 PM
The UAA kind of messes up reviews by region, so off the top let me say that the UAA has fallen further behind NESCAC.  Chicago has separated from the rest of the UAA...with imo considerable distance between the Maroons and then, who?  NYU?  Rochester? 

Rochester finished 6th last season and may finish in the bottom half again this year, though they may have the best GK in the league.

I do think it is Chicago and everyone else is a good bet until we get a few games in the books.

I could see NYU finishing second.

Carnegie Mellon lost a lot including their keeper. 

I was glad to see some positive response to the coverage of regions mock proposal. I almost deleted it because I don't know if @stlawus is another psychologist or an atty waiting for me to need his services, but I do feel a little hypomanic and over the top.

@kuiper, where to place your fine work is the least of our worries. The bigger concern is that your reviews are too good, yielding hesitation from others and a risk of me being exposed for really having no true knowledge of whatever teams I talk about.  In any case, my vote is for the national thread even if it gets a little messy and of course posting the same content in two places wld still be an option.

I do think we need to know what we're dealing with in terms of d3soccer.com, viability of alternative database/scheduling resources, etc. Since we haven't heard anything -- and we're not just on the doorstep but ringing the bell on the season -- I'm assuming the worst.

Another short-term suggestion for anyone who is bored and excited would be starting a thread where team season previews could be dropped with a link.  Maybe someone knows how to do it where new entries could automatically alphabetize.

Even if you were over the top, don't see how that's a bad thing!  I've posted more in the LL board this offseason than I have at any point in my life, and I've held back on a lot of things so if anything I'm the one that's over the top.   

As for the proposal, I pay close attention to all things Region 3 so I'm more than happy to chime in on things.

Quote from: PaulNewman on August 26, 2023, 12:52:35 PM
Don't look now but Calvin is absolutely loaded...and huge.  Wunder back at GK at 6'6, a bunch of 6'3 and 6'2 dudes, Akintade back, and Chris Schau returns for his 9th campaign.  Impressive geographical reach recruiting-wise that probably surpasses Messiah.

Calvin appears to have a brand new field (artificial?).  The schedule looks favorable as well.  On the road for Chicago and Ohio Northern but get OWU and JCU at home.

Projection....20-1-1 with Sweet 16 as floor (would be massive disappointment) and national title as ceiling.  Does Souders finally get a still hungry Calvin program to the top of the mountain?

North Park traveled to Grand Rapids on Saturday and defeated Calvin by a score of 5-1.

Yes, I know, it was only a scrimmage. But still ...

Does anyone know about this Hartford Team?  If they can defeat Conn College on 9/5 they should run the table. 

Quote from: SKUD on August 29, 2023, 09:27:27 AM
Does anyone know about this Hartford Team?  If they can defeat Conn College on 9/5 they should run the table.

You're probably aware of this, but, for readers who aren't aware of how moving from one NCAA division to another works: Hartford is a provisional member of D3, which means that the university is still in the process of reclassifying from D1. And that, in turn, means that "run the table" should be interpreted as "go undefeated in the regular season and then put away the gear until next August."

Quote from: Gregory Sager on August 29, 2023, 10:48:43 AM

Quote from: SKUD on August 29, 2023, 09:27:27 AM
Does anyone know about this Hartford Team?  If they can defeat Conn College on 9/5 they should run the table.

You're probably aware of this, but, for readers who aren't aware of how moving from one NCAA division to another works: Hartford is a provisional member of D3, which means that the university is still in the process of reclassifying from D1. And that, in turn, means that "run the table" should be interpreted as "go undefeated in the regular season and then put away the gear until next August."

Does seem like an interesting scheduling choice for Conn - I would assume Hartford would be a bit of a wild card at this point (not understanding who stayed/left/recruited based on the news) for a team who is looking to get out of the gates better than last season.

Middlebury traveled to Williamstown and came away with a 4-0 victory in a scrimmage.  Goals by first year Jay Hoke and Jr. Tyler Payne on nice free kicks.  First year Will Sawin had a side volley to make it 3-0, and Alem Hadzic finished off the scoring with a sliding tap in of a cross from the left.  Was not on site, but am relaying based on cell phone video and eyewitness reports.

Aurora University playing a D1 Team (northern Illinois) during the regular season - this seems odd doesnt it?

Quote from: soccerpapa on August 29, 2023, 03:11:12 PM
Aurora University playing a D1 Team (northern Illinois) during the regular season - this seems odd doesnt it?

It's not uncommon in Basketball.  It's usually an exhibition for the d3 team, regular game for d1.  Likely, NIU had a date it couldn't fill, so added a d3 to get a game in....

Last year Endicott traveled to BC for a Monday night game in late October.

First Five Matches Plus for Some Prominent Programs By Regions (EXCLUDING NESCAC)


Regions 1 and 2



Babson -- St Joe's (ME), TX-Dallas, Suffolk, @Montclair, @Stevens (Conn Coll 9/23, @Amherst 9/27, Tufts 10/3)

Brandeis -- Western NE, @ECSU, @WPI, Vassar, Bridgewater St (Wesleyan 9/17, @Babson 10/10)

Coast Guard -- @Widener, @Swat, @Merch Marine, Mass-Dartmouth, MIT (Colby 9/17)

Endicott -- Concordia (TX), Ramapo, @Stevens, @Montclair, Salem St (@Middlebury 9/19)

MIT -- @Haverford, @Scranton, @Tufts, @UMass-Boston, @RWU (Brandeis 10/4)

Western CT -- Vassar, Drew, Potsdam (N), Nichols (N), Keene St (Wesleyan 10/3, @Williams 10/18)

WPI -- @Worcester St, @UMass-Boston, Brandeis, Skidmore, Eastern Naz (@Amherst 9/19)


Regions 3 and 4


Brockport -- RIT, Elmira, @St John Fisher, @Messiah, @Gettysburg

Cortland -- @Rochester, @SLU, Manhattanville, Catholic, Utica (@Rowan 9/13)

Montclair -- NYU, Hunter, Babson, Endicott, @Moravian (Vassar 9/16, Amherst 10/15)

New Paltz -- @Drew, St Elizabeths Univ (N), Lehman, Union, @Vassar (@Skidmore 9/16)

NYU -- @Montclair, Merch Marine, @Wesleyan, TCNJ (N), @Rut-Newark (@Stevens 9/19)

Oneonta -- @Union, Hartwick, Merch Marine, SLU, @Utica (RPI 9/27)

Rochester -- Cortland, @Alvernia, Keuka, RIT, Hobart (Stevens 9/23)

Rowan -- @Salisbury, St Mary's (N), Hopkins, @Haverford, Cortland (@Wash Coll 9/19)

RPI -- @Mary Wash, NC Wesleyan (N), Plattsburgh, @Keene St, Oswego (@Oneonta 9/23)

SLU -- Geneseo, Cortland, @Hartwick, @Oneonta, Potsdam

Stevens -- Manhattanville, @Franklin & Marshall, Endicott, Babson, TCNJ (NYU 9/19...Duck Country Game, @Rochester 9/23)

Vassar -- @Western CT, Mt St Mary, @Springfield, @Brandeis, New Paltz (@Montclair 9/16)


Regions 5 and 6


Catholic -- Shenandoah, Messiah, @Cortland, Randolph Macon, Emory (N) (@Gettysburg 9/20, Mary Wash 10/14)

Christopher Newport -- Berry, Lynchburg, Marymount, Randolph, NC Wesleyan (Santa Cruz (N) 9/22, @Colorado Coll 9/23, @W&L 10/21, @Mary Wash 10/28)

Emory -- Covenant, W&L, @Pac Luth, @Willamette, Catholic (N) (Mary Wash (N) 9/17, Wash U 9/23)

Franklin & Marshall -- Stevens, Leb Valley, Etown, Rosemont, @PS-Harrisburg

Johns Hopkins -- NC Wesleyan (N), @Mary Wash, @Rowan, Lycoming, Hobart

Lynchburg -- Hardin-Simmons (N), @CNU, Covenant (N), Oglethorpe, Greensboro (@Mary Wash 10/7)

Mary Washington -- RPI, Hopkins, Hobart (N), Lycoming (N), Hampden-Sydney (N) (Emory (N) 9/17, @Messiah 9/23)

Messiah -- TCNJ (N), @Catholic, Brockport, Rut-Camden, Dickinson (Mary Wash 9/23)

Rhodes -- Mary Hardin-Baylor, Lyon Coll, @Webster, @ Westminster (MO), Stockton, McMurry

Sewanee -- Gettysburg, @W&L, @Hampden-Sydney, Maryville @Belhaven (@Emory 9/24)

Washington & Lee -- @Oglethorpe, @Emory, Stockton (N), Sewanee, Otterbein (N) (CNU 10/21)


Regions 7 and 8


Calvin -- St Norbert, OWU, Cornerstone, @ONU, Wilmington (N) (JCU 9/23, @Chicago 9/27)

Carnegie Mellon -- Muskingum, Allegheny, JCU, @Westminster (PA), @Washington & Jefferson

Chicago -- @St Olaf, @GAC, UWEC, @North Park, @Hope (Calvin 9/27)

CWRU -- @Otterbein, Wooster, Defiance, Capital, @JCU (Denison 9/23)

Denison -- Roanoke, Transy, @Marietta, @Grove City, @Franklin (@JCU 9/20, @CWRU 9/23, Otterbein 9/27)

Hanover -- Centre (N), @Spalding, @Kenyon, @OWU, @Berea (Otterbein 9/23)

Hope -- OWU, St Norbert, Cornerstone, @Elmhurst, Olivet (Chicago 9/15, RHIT 9/16)

John Carroll -- Oberlin, @Kenyon, @CMU, Wooster, CWRU (@OWU 9/16, Denison 9/20, @Calvin 9/23, North Park (N) 9/27)

Kenyon -- @ONU, JCU, Hanover, St Olaf, Wilmington

North Central -- Baldwin Wallace (N), @PS-Behrend or Alfred (N), Benedictine, Trine, RHIT (ONU 9/15)

North Park -- Benedictine, St Norbert, @KZoo, Chicago, Wartburg (ONU 9/16, @Wash U 9/20, JCU 9/27 (N))

Ohio Northern -- Kenyon, @Oberlin, Calvin, Colorado Coll, @OWU (@North Central 9/15, @North Park 9/16)

Otterbein -- CWRU, Trine, W&L (N), Franklin, @Transy (@OWU 9/20)

OWU -- @Hope, @Calvin, St Olaf, Hanover, ONU (JCU 9/16, Otterbein 9/20)

Rose Hulman -- @Greenville, Wash U, Wabash, @ North Central, DePauw (@Hope 9/16, ONU 9/23)

Washington Univ -- @ Ill Wesleyan, @RHIT, @Principia, Aurora, @Millikin (North Park 9/20)

Wheaton (Ill) -- Wisc-Platteville, Principia, @Lake Forest, @MSOE, Dubuque (@Loras 9/16, Chicago 9/19, Wash U 9/23)


Regions 9 and 10


Augsburg -- @Linfield, @George Fox, Univ Northwestern St Paul, @Minnesota Morris, @Hamline

Claremont-Mudd-Scripps -- Santa Cruz, @Willamette, Pac Lutheran (N), Cal Lutheran, @Chapman

Gustavus Adolphus -- Knox, Chicago, @Loras, @Dubuque, @Carleton (@Luther 10/16)

Loras -- Monmouth, Concordia (Minn), Northland, GAC, St John's (Wheaton (Ill) 9/16, UWW 9/20)

Luther -- Cornell Coll, @St Scholastica, @Wisc-Platteville, Viterbo, @Macalester (UWW 9/13, @St Olaf 9/20)

Occidental -- TX Lutheran, Marymount (VA), The Master's College (what??), Lewis & Clark, Caltech

Pacific Lutheran -- @Colorado Coll, Nebraska Wesleyan (N), Emory (N), C-M-S, Whitworth

Redlands -- Bethesda Univ, Santa Cruz, LIFE Pacific, @Chapman, @Vanguard

St Olaf -- Chicago, Knox, @OWU, @Kenyon, Bethel (Luther 9/20)

St Thomas (TX) -- Pomona-Pitzer, Willamette (N), Concordia (TX), @Mary Hardin Baylor, @St Edwards (ummm, who??)

Southwestern -- Willamette, Elmhurst, Whitman, TX-Dallas, E. Texas Baptist

Texas-Dallas -- @Wheaton (MA), @Babson, @Trinity (TX), @Southwestern, TX Lutheran (Colorado Coll 9/17)

Trinity (TX) -- Elmhurst, Pomona-Pitzer, TX-Dallas, Whitman, Hardin Simmons

Wisc-Eau Claire -- @St Scholastica, @Wisc-Superior, @Macalester, @ Chicago, Northland (St Olaf 10/4, UWW 10/6, Luther 10/21)

Willamette -- @Southwestern, @St Thomas (TX) (N), C-M-S, Emory, Linfield

I'm going through my RPI spreadsheet prior to the season and making sure my team database matches the NCAA listing and while searching for Finlandia's status (I guess they cut men's soccer?  They're no longer listed in the NCAA database and they don't have a 2023 schedule up on their athletics website) discovered that men's soccer will be included in the Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference again starting next season.  UW-Eau Claire, UW-Platteville, UW-River Falls, UW-Stevens Point, UW-Stout and UW-Whitewater.  Another AQ spot

https://wiacsports.com/news/2023/8/29/mens-soccer-returning-to-wiac-sport-module.aspx (https://wiacsports.com/news/2023/8/29/mens-soccer-returning-to-wiac-sport-module.aspx)

Finlandia has closed, unfortunately.

Quote from: paclassic89 on August 30, 2023, 10:55:35 PM
I'm going through my RPI spreadsheet prior to the season and making sure my team database matches the NCAA listing and while searching for Finlandia's status (I guess they cut men's soccer?  They're no longer listed in the NCAA database and they don't have a 2023 schedule up on their athletics website) discovered that men's soccer will be included in the Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference again starting next season.  UW-Eau Claire, UW-Platteville, UW-River Falls, UW-Stevens Point, UW-Stout and UW-Whitewater.  Another AQ spot

https://wiacsports.com/news/2023/8/29/mens-soccer-returning-to-wiac-sport-module.aspx (https://wiacsports.com/news/2023/8/29/mens-soccer-returning-to-wiac-sport-module.aspx)

The sad irony, of course, being that long-time national power UW-Oshkosh, which played in 14 D3 tourneys and reached the Final Four on four different occasions before disbanding the men's soccer program eight years ago, is not one of the WIAC schools that will be participating in the rebirth of WIAC men's soccer.

No breaking news here, but Chicago @St Olaf is a massive game with multiple storylines.  Too bad this match isn't a few hours later as kickoff is just an hour away.  St Olaf last year was a PK shootout away from the Elite 8 (and a match with Chicago) and the Oles return their entire starting XI.  Of course they do not return their coach.  Chicago lost the dynamic CB duo that was considered the heart of their national title (and Final Four before that) teams.  Their coach also does not return.  That said, Chicago has almost everyone else and they are loaded with offensive talent all over the pitch.  Whoever loses could easily end up 2-3, 3-2, or even 1-4 in first five games.  My heart says St Olaf but my brain says Chicago wins 3-2.

Vassar @Western CT is another compelling one.  Vassar looks to avenge last season's loss and Western CT wants to keep their undefeated streak alive and gain a valuable likely ranked win for the NCAA resume.

Other pivotal clashes....NYU @Montclair with both squads perhaps a little fragile and each could benefit from an early confidence boost.  Cortland @Rochester.....well, maybe someone from inside Fauver Stadium can post updates throughout the game.

Imho,

I'd go with your heart.

Chicago nicked up.  Moonsinge out, Baldwin out and Alex lee out. Starting 3 1st years.

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 01, 2023, 02:01:26 PM
No breaking news here, but Chicago @St Olaf is a massive game with multiple storylines.  Too bad this match isn't a few hours later as kickoff is just an hour away.  St Olaf last year was a PK shootout away from the Elite 8 (and a match with Chicago) and the Oles return their entire starting XI.  Of course they do not return their coach.  Chicago lost the dynamic CB duo that was considered the heart of their national title (and Final Four before that) teams.  Their coach also does not return.  That said, Chicago has almost everyone else and they are loaded with offensive talent all over the pitch.  Whoever loses could easily end up 2-3, 3-2, or even 1-4 in first five games.  My heart says St Olaf but my brain says Chicago wins 3-2.

Vassar @Western CT is another compelling one.  Vassar looks to avenge last season's loss and Western CT wants to keep their undefeated streak alive and gain a valuable likely ranked win for the NCAA resume.

Other pivotal clashes....NYU @Montclair with both squads perhaps a little fragile and each could benefit from an early confidence boost.  Cortland @Rochester.....well, maybe someone from inside Fauver Stadium can post updates throughout the game.

I haven't watched it, but just checked the score on Vassar @ Western CT and WestConn is up 2-0 at half.  Seems like they might be legit again this year.

Quote from: 4samuy on September 01, 2023, 03:05:12 PM
Imho,

I'd go with your heart.

Chicago nicked up.  Moonsinge out, Baldwin out and Alex lee out. Starting 3 1st years.

Chicago wins 4 to 2 in a game that reflected the losses and absences on defense.  St. Olaf could have scored a third on a shot saved on the line by a Chicago defender.

They have a brutal opening schedule with Gustavus Adolphus, Wisconsin Eau Claire, North Park, to come.

Washington and Lee loses 0-1 to Oglethorpe.  Oglethorpe the better team in the 1st half, W&L in the 2nd. Apparently Oglethorpe have a bunch (6? 8?) of D1 transfers, and it shows. W &L still figuring things out a bit.

UPSET ALERT

This is way too early to say an upset is afoot, but St. Norbert is up 1-0 on Calvin halfway through the first half in Grand Rapids.  The lone goal came on a PK in the 20th minute

UPDATE:  As I said, way too early to call it an upset.  Calvin's coach uses a hydration break to rally the troops and reorganize them and they tie it up 1-1 in the 28th minute on a shot to the top left corner.

UPDATE:  Didn't mean to start a live blog on the game, but St. Norbert is back up 2-1.  This isn't a flukey score.  They have more shots and more shots on goal.

After ending the half with St. Norbert up 2-1, Calvin has now tied it up 2-2 in the 58th minute.

UPDATE:  Calvin wins 4-2.  They put things together in the second half, but if they needed a wakeup call, this was it.

Amer Lukovic scores in the 4th minute against NYU in his 23rd season for Montclair.

Already some interesting results.  What separates teams like Chicago, Messiah, maybe Amherst from everyone else is that they win games consistently against teams in the very next tier...and that next tier with the likes of JHU, W&L, St Olaf, Kenyon, F&M, Montclair, North Park, John Carroll, etc is that those teams can't be counted on to win.  I would put Calvin in the first group but maybe not if they can't get by St Norbert.

Impressive result for Chicago esp missing some guys.  Gaulmin for St Olaf is phenomenal....if he was in the NESCAC people would be talking about him like Giammatti.

Many aspire to the NESCAC, but (literally) few are chosen.

St. Thomas beating Pomona-Pitzer 1-0 at the half on a Taty Aleman PK early in the game.  St. Thomas has had a lot of chances, including two that hit the cross bar and went down for the GK to gather them and a double save toward the end of the half.  It's probably one of few games you will see where both teams pass the ball out of the back and through the middle, often creating a lot of one touch pretty football.  St. Thomas is the better side and has had more chances, but P-P definitely gets into dangerous places with their passing.  They also have a height advantage and that has helped on defense (especially with a really short GK for P-P).  I expect St. Thomas will wear them down in the second half because they are more physical and faster (as well as having better shooters who will eventually find the frame), but from a ball skill and passing perspective, the teams are not that far apart.

UPDATE:  As expected, St. Thomas wore P-P down and found their shooting boots to win 3-0.  Aleman with two goals and Castro with one.  Those guys just picked up right where they left off.

Cortland led Rochester 1-0 until the 67 minute and then the Yellowjackets scored 4 in relatively quick succession, including a PK.  I did not watch it.

Quote from: Another Mom on September 01, 2023, 05:57:56 PM
Washington and Lee loses 0-1 to Oglethorpe.  Oglethorpe the better team in the 1st half, W&L in the 2nd. Apparently Oglethorpe have a bunch (6? 8?) of D1 transfers, and it shows. W &L still figuring things out a bit.

Looks like 6 transfers. 3 of which appear to be from D1 schools and the other 3 from D2 schools (https://gopetrels.com/news/2023/9/1/mens-soccer-mens-soccer-2023-season-preview.aspx). Impressive haul...

Following up on earlier post, and, cruising past the paywall...Cortland vs Rochester- game opens fairly even with each side failing to convert. Cortland breaks through at 22nd minute, nice running header off a perfect long cross. 2nd half, UR comes out with high press and more aggressive driving more action into the box. Cortland gives up 3Pks in 9 minutes, bad fouls, 3rd not as clear. First PK terrific save by keeper but UR scores on the rebound. UR nets next two PKs, then 4 minutes later a banger from outside the box into top left corner. Physical game, UR defense and keeper solid in stopping experienced attack. Cortland will regroup- still a strong team. UR will be tested with healthy out of conference schedule, Alvernia, RIT, Hobart, and Stevens..   

A few matches involving Region X teams that either had national significance or crossed over regions.

In Colorado Springs, Pacific Lutheran picked up a big win, beating Colorado College 2-1.  It wasn't a dominant performance, with both teams looking rusty and having trouble stringing together passes, but Pac Lu went up 2-0 on a PK in the 69th minute and held on after Colorado College scored in the 83rd minute.

Mary Hardin-Baylor and Rhodes drew 1-1 in a game of two teams coming off strong seasons in their region.

UT Dallas and Wheaton (MA) tied 0-0.   Not sure what to take from this match, other than neither offense is ready for prime time.   UTD has 0 shots on goal and Wheaton had 1.

Endicott beat Concordia (TX) 1-0

Trinity (TX) beat Elmhurst 3-1.  Best thing about this match for Trinity was that Michael Meese played off the bench and got 60 minutes with 1 shot on goal.  They took 17 shots, 7 on goal, while only allowing one shot on goal (that was Elmhurst's lone goal).  The game was tight, though, with a 1-1 tie until Trinity broke the logjam in the 83rd minute and added an insurance goal in the 90th minute.

I wrote about this in the Go West thread, but Southwestern beat Willamette 3-0 in a big win for the Pirates.

I'm sure there are others, but some score lines from Friday that I found interesting:

Johns Hopkins 1
NC Wesleyan - 1

Rowan - 1
Salisbury - 1

Rosemont - 1
Swarthmore - 0

Wester CT - 3
Vassar - 1

SUNY Geneseo - 0
St Lawrence - 0

Mary Washington - 4
RPI - 0

Cornell - 1
Luther - 1

Rochester - 4
Cortland - 1

Manhatanville - 0
Stevens - 0

Ohio Northern - 4
Kenyon - 2

Messiah at Catholic today. Early test for both but expect the Falcons to come out victorious. I'm going with 3-0 Messiah when it's all said and done.

Welp...that's got to be one of the quickest honeymoons on record.  Nothing like an opening day loss to bring one's enthusiasm grinding to a halt.  Thank goodness yesterday's matches were only exhibitions.

I was torn about where to post because Ohio Northern definitely deserves the National thread while Kenyon should be relegated to Great Lakes.  The only thing worse than Kenyon's performance was the dysfunctional video streams for too many games, including this one.  Very hard to get a fair sense when you only see snippets in between long frozen stretches, and of course as a partisan I'd love to focus on ONU getting two phantom PK calls, especially the second one, as well as a 35+ yards free kick from pretty much straight on that a kid buried in the corner top shelf.  The truth from my pov is that ONU outplayed the Owls from start to finish, looking like the far more mature, more dangerous squad.  Kenyon seemed disorganized, disconnected, sloppy, and at a loss for ideas.  They battled and for a brief spell looked likely to equalize after getting back to 3-2, but the second PK was the coffin confirmation.  Impressive, important outing for the Polar Bears who in addition to avenging last year's 6-2 spanking pick up a valuable likely RR win.  By contrast, the Owls are already 0-1 in RvR with JCU coming to town, followed by Hanover and St Olaf.  You don't want to start 1-3 or even 0-4 in RvR but that is now on the table.  Martinez did not play which is disconcerting and Duratovic (something like 18 goals last year) only got about 30 minutes. 


Certainly there's no need to engage in abject panic (yet), but at least a handful of presumed upper tier teams are at risk of starting out with several blemishes and potentially being behind the eight ball on RvR.


Some other results I think not mentioned yet that caught my eye...


Babson 1, St Joe's (ME) 0


Lynchburg 2, Hardin Simmons 0


Emory 0, Covenant 0


OWU, Hope 0


Hanover 2, Centre 0


CWRU 1, Otterbein 0


Skidmore 0, Oswego 0


Brandeis 0, Western NE 0


Leb Valley 4, Rut-Newark 0


Chris Newport 2, Berry 1


New Paltz 2, Drew 1


Denison 2, Roanoke 0


Scranton 1, Muhlenberg 0


MIT 3, Haverford 3


JCU 2, Oberlin 1


Montclair 2, NYU 0


Widener 2, Coast Guard 1


WPI 1, Worcester St 1


J&W 1, Bridgewater St 1


Trine 1, Wooster 1


DePauw 4, Wilmington 0


CMS 2, Santa Cruz 1


RIT 1, Brockport 1


Texas Lutheran 1, Occidental 0


Hobart 6, Keuka 0

Emory and Washington & Lee tie 0-0.  W&L had a PK early in the game that Emory saved and a W&L player got booked for simulation very late in the game in an attempt to get a second PK try, but that was it for offense on either side.  Both teams tried ambitious passes that were cut off by the other side, but basically lacked the kind of offensive ideas necessary to unlock their respective opponents.  Given that neither team has scored a goal through two games, I don't think you can attribute the scoreless tie today simply to outstanding defenses (unless you can blame it on Emory's field, since Oglethorpe and Covenant, also tied 0-0 today at the same field). 

Franklin & Marshall with a big time win over Stevens 2-1 on a last minute header off a corner.  Stevens went up first on great hold-up play by the forward, who dragged and turned a defender, creating space for a lateral pass to the onrushing Stevens shooter.  F&M then evened it up (somewhat against the run of play in the game overall) and it looked like it would stay that way, but F&M appeared to be energized by the home crowd and kept lumping the ball into the box whenever it had a chance and finally got a clean head to put a ball home.  The commentator for F&M said that Stevens didn't give up 2 goals in a single game all season last year, making F&M's goals all the more impressive.

Stevens v. F&M Crazy silly to play back to back games.  I'm going to guess that Stevens will never do that again even though both teams subbed very liberally (1st half each team made at least 9 subs a piece).  I totally agree with coaches saying that they should not have to play back to back games in the post season, yet somehow they schedule back to back games??!!

First half pretty even with a little bit to Stevens.  They did hit the post.  Second half, first 30 min. or so Stevens hit the cross bar and scored a decent goal. At the 13 min, Stevens defense just collapsed and F&M took advantage. 1-1 on a really good goal stretching the defense catching Stevens ball watching for jam in from just out side the keeper box. With about 2 min remaining and on a right side free kick, the F&M player pushed way towards the left end line, F&M heads it across the goal mouth where the player headed it in for the put away. Come from behind 2-1 win. 

Also, I believe that Stevens did not give up 2 goals in a game all year.  Right now, Stevens does not have another ranked team on its schedule which obviously could change. However, they looked good and could easily make the NCAAs.

FYI, in other news, squirrel loose on the field in Happy Valley halting the PSU game.

Stevens plays Babson next Sunday.

The start of this season feels similar to the start of last year's season with W&L -- that is, they have to work out the kinks. The offense really struggled in the final third. I have confidence Coach Singleton will be able to make adjustments and get the team back in form. Next game is Tuesday.

ETA out of the 8 games with the four teams at this event, *one* goal was scored. All the other games ended in 0-0 ties. So W&L was not alone in struggling how to figure out how to score.

Chicago and Gustavus Adolphus play to a 2-2 tie in Saint Peter, Minnesota.  Chicago secured a 2-1 lead about 12 minutes into the second half, but GA tied it up to sort of avenge getting knocked out in the NCAA tournament by U of C last season.  Considering Chicago only had one tie all last season, this seems significant, although coming away with a win and a tie on a tough road trip to St Olaf and Gustavus Adolphus would count as a big success in most team's books.

Happy birthday SimpleCoach! I see that government offices and banks are closed for your birthday today — your status as a social media influencer is quite impressive! I enjoy your podcasts — thanks.

Rumored results out of the NESCAC first week scrimmages from my coaching contacts

Middlebury 4 - Williams - 0  (Williams in disarray with a lot of personnel losses)
Tufts 1 - Harvard 1 (tufts super bowl to play against former coach)
Conn 4 - Trinity -0 (trinity played far fewer players with a number hurt, conn players competing for PT)
Columbia 1 - Wesleyan 0 (sort or one sided for Columbia)

Quote from: TNAggie on September 03, 2023, 05:07:00 PM
Happy birthday SimpleCoach! I see that government offices and banks are closed for your birthday today — your status as a social media influencer is quite impressive! I enjoy your podcasts — thanks.

Thank you @TNAggie.  Appreciate the well wishes and the support.  You know, when they originally suggested to close down the economy for a whole day in my honor, I humbly asked that they reconsider as I thought it was a bit much.  But I was over ruled.

Thanks again!

SC.

Quote from: Kuiper on September 02, 2023, 08:09:23 PM
Franklin & Marshall with a big time win over Stevens 2-1 on a last minute header off a corner.  Stevens went up first on great hold-up play by the forward, who dragged and turned a defender, creating space for a lateral pass to the onrushing Stevens shooter.  F&M then evened it up (somewhat against the run of play in the game overall) and it looked like it would stay that way, but F&M appeared to be energized by the home crowd and kept lumping the ball into the box whenever it had a chance and finally got a clean head to put a ball home.  The commentator for F&M said that Stevens didn't give up 2 goals in a single game all season last year, making F&M's goals all the more impressive.

F&M another team using hockey assists for their stats. Double assist given on their game winning free kick that was sent far post then headed back across the net for someone else to finish  ::) ::) ::)

Trinity(TX) came from behind in a 3-2 win over Pomona-Pitzer as Michael Meese came off the bench in the 20th minute, shortly thereafter assisting on the Tigers' first goal from Adam Knutson when the PP keeper, Ethan Bay, came off his line to challenge.  He later would score his first of the season in the 64th minute after a indirect free kick was awarded when a back pass was (somewhat questionably) called to tie the match at two.  The game-winner would come less than a minute later as Chen Adjei collected a rebound off a save by Bay, took a touch, and fired a shot too high for Bay to collect.  Joshua Lynch, who played the entire match in goal, would collect all of his three saves on the day afterwards to preserve the win.  Bay had eight saves in the loss.

Pomona scored its initial goal in the second minute on a low roller from outside the box by Marvin Heilbronn off of a blocked attempt that surprisingly made its way in just off the left post.  Keyon Namdar put the Sagehens up in the 61st after Brendan Kish picked the pocket of a Trinity defender and found him open on the right side for a shot he slotted into the back left. 

FYI NCAA RULE EXCERPTS RE ASSISTS (Looked it up b/c I saw 10.5.8 occur at a game this weekend):

10.5.2 If a scoring play consists of two consecutive passes without a defender gaining control of the ball, two assists may be awarded, provided the second player does not have to elude a defender to make the final pass. Both passes must have a direct influence on the outcome of a goal scored. If the second player needs to elude a defender before passing to the goal-scorer, credit only that assist.

10.5.5 A corner kick, throw-in or free kick leading to a goal each counts as a pass in awarding assists.

10.5.7 If an attacking player's shot hits a post or crossbar and bounces back into the field of play and, before a defender can touch the ball, another attacker shoots the ball into the goal, credit the player whose shot hit the post or crossbar with an assist.

10.5.8 If an attacking player shoots and the goalkeeper or defender blocks the shot but cannot control the ball, and a second attacking player immediately knocks the rebound in for a goal, credit the player who took the first shot with an assist.

A new year, but the exact same start for OWU. Tied 0-0 against Hope; lost 0-1 to Calvin. The guys had their opportunities, including a wide open breakaway, but could not finish. Frustrating weekend for the Battling Bishops.

Quote from: Ejay on September 04, 2023, 09:11:35 AM

Quote from: Kuiper on September 02, 2023, 08:09:23 PM
Franklin & Marshall with a big time win over Stevens 2-1 on a last minute header off a corner.  Stevens went up first on great hold-up play by the forward, who dragged and turned a defender, creating space for a lateral pass to the onrushing Stevens shooter.  F&M then evened it up (somewhat against the run of play in the game overall) and it looked like it would stay that way, but F&M appeared to be energized by the home crowd and kept lumping the ball into the box whenever it had a chance and finally got a clean head to put a ball home.  The commentator for F&M said that Stevens didn't give up 2 goals in a single game all season last year, making F&M's goals all the more impressive.

F&M another team using hockey assists for their stats. Double assist given on their game winning free kick that was sent far post then headed back across the net for someone else to finish  ::) ::) ::)

Thanks for assist clarification!   I was definitely not in the two pass category and did not understand the two assist rule. As you will see at the end of the highlight, the ball never touched the ground.

http://www.hudl.com/v/2LY41J

While this does not mean anything soccerwise, the kid taking the free kick kicked the winning field goal at the end of the game in the 4a PA state championship two years ago.

Opening Weekend Winners and Losers

Biggest Winners

Mary Washington, John Carroll, Calvin, St Thomas

Winners

Ohio Northern, Texas Lutheran, Christopher Newport, Franklin & Marshall, Rochester, Western CT, Denison, Lebanon Valley, Montclair St, CWRU, Wisc-Platteville, Chicago, GAC, UMass-Boston, Scranton, Oglethorpe, Capital, VWU, Widener, Caltech, Mary Hardin-Baylor, Geneseo St, Loras, Wartburg, DePauw, Rutgers-Camden, Mt Union, Redlands, Babson, Macalester, New Paltz St, Trinity (TX), Endicott


Biggest Losers

Kenyon, Willamette

Losers

Hopkins, Stevens, W&L, OWU, SLU, Hanover, Coast Guard, Skidmore, Otterbein, video streaming (in 2023)

Quote from: Ejay on September 04, 2023, 09:11:35 AM
F&M another team using hockey assists for their stats. Double assist given on their game winning free kick that was sent far post then headed back across the net for someone else to finish  ::) ::) ::)

Wonder if they also credit assists for winning PKs that are converted.  Maybe I'm old school, but that one bothers me.

Quote from: TNAggie on September 04, 2023, 11:16:05 AM
FYI NCAA RULE EXCERPTS RE ASSISTS (Looked it up b/c I saw 10.5.8 occur at a game this weekend):

10.5.2 If a scoring play consists of two consecutive passes without a defender gaining control of the ball, two assists may be awarded, provided the second player does not have to elude a defender to make the final pass. Both passes must have a direct influence on the outcome of a goal scored. If the second player needs to elude a defender before passing to the goal-scorer, credit only that assist.

10.5.5 A corner kick, throw-in or free kick leading to a goal each counts as a pass in awarding assists.

10.5.7 If an attacking player's shot hits a post or crossbar and bounces back into the field of play and, before a defender can touch the ball, another attacker shoots the ball into the goal, credit the player whose shot hit the post or crossbar with an assist.

10.5.8 If an attacking player shoots and the goalkeeper or defender blocks the shot but cannot control the ball, and a second attacking player immediately knocks the rebound in for a goal, credit the player who took the first shot with an assist.

Wow. Chalk this up to "you learn something new everyday" AND "those are some horsesht rules for awarding assists".

Am watching a number of games today... because thats what I do.

And I will say this.  University of Paywall will never be in my Top 25.  I think they are average at best.

SC.

Quote from: SimpleCoach on September 04, 2023, 04:34:12 PM
Am watching a number of games today... because thats what I do.

And I will say this.  University of Paywall will never be in my Top 25.  I think they are average at best.

SC.

Sorry, but which is the Univ of Paywall?  Univ of Rochester? Memory is shot.

Yes, University of Rochester.

Quote from: Freddyfud on September 04, 2023, 02:46:01 PM

Quote from: Ejay on September 04, 2023, 09:11:35 AM
F&M another team using hockey assists for their stats. Double assist given on their game winning free kick that was sent far post then headed back across the net for someone else to finish  ::) ::) ::)

Wonder if they also credit assists for winning PKs that are converted.  Maybe I'm old school, but that one bothers me.

I missed the rules excerpt post from TNAggie when I posted this.  Following that lead I see 10.5.4 No assist is awarded on a penalty-kick goal.  Now I can rest knowing Fantasy Premier League hasn't poisoned the well. Yet. 

Quote from: Freddyfud on September 04, 2023, 08:56:50 PM

Quote from: Freddyfud on September 04, 2023, 02:46:01 PM

Quote from: Ejay on September 04, 2023, 09:11:35 AM
F&M another team using hockey assists for their stats. Double assist given on their game winning free kick that was sent far post then headed back across the net for someone else to finish  ::) ::) ::)

Wonder if they also credit assists for winning PKs that are converted.  Maybe I'm old school, but that one bothers me.

I missed the rules excerpt post from TNAggie when I posted this.  Following that lead I see 10.5.4 No assist is awarded on a penalty-kick goal.  Now I can rest knowing Fantasy Premier League hasn't poisoned the well. Yet.

Agreed! No assist on PK goal makes sense (though our club team did track "PK goals created," which was an interesting stat to see).

Quote from: Ejay on September 04, 2023, 09:11:35 AM

Quote from: Kuiper on September 02, 2023, 08:09:23 PM
Franklin & Marshall with a big time win over Stevens 2-1 on a last minute header off a corner.  Stevens went up first on great hold-up play by the forward, who dragged and turned a defender, creating space for a lateral pass to the onrushing Stevens shooter.  F&M then evened it up (somewhat against the run of play in the game overall) and it looked like it would stay that way, but F&M appeared to be energized by the home crowd and kept lumping the ball into the box whenever it had a chance and finally got a clean head to put a ball home.  The commentator for F&M said that Stevens didn't give up 2 goals in a single game all season last year, making F&M's goals all the more impressive.

F&M another team using hockey assists for their stats. Double assist given on their game winning free kick that was sent far post then headed back across the net for someone else to finish  ::) ::) ::)

They're not "hockey assists," they're soccer assists. As TNAggie pointed out, the NCAA soccer rulebook says as much. Virtually identical language can be found in Section 5 of the NCAA Stats Manual for Soccer, except that it also includes hypothetical case studies to illustrate what should or shouldn't be credited as a two-assist goal.

No matter how clearly it's defined, it can still come down to the interpretation of the official scorer, so subjectivity sometimes seeps into how assists are assigned. I'm certainly not going to vouch for how F&M's official scorer, or the official scorer for any other game I didn't watch, assigns assists. I'm likewise not going to blame that scorer sight unseen, either.

All I'm saying is that the NCAA deems that two-assist goals are part of the game, and has done so for a very long time. (I'm not sure how long, and whether or not it predates the creation of the MLS in 1996; I know that the MLS has had two-assist goals from the beginning of the league.) I get that it's not a common stat to see in overseas soccer. Then again, we don't get into the "key pass" or "chance created" stats here the way that they do in England. But the point is that American versions of soccer have had secondary assists for decades. Therefore, they aren't hockey assists, they're soccer assists.

(By the way, hockey isn't the only other sport besides soccer where two different players can be credited with assists within the same sequence of play. Baseball has two-assist plays, too.)

The 2 assist thing will always bug me.  Too much subjective interpretation left to the official scorer (usually for second assist).  I watched one game this weekend and saw some good goals - second assist were awarded on several goals which based on rules previously stated should not have been.   

What exactly is underlying the gripe on assists?  Is there an implication that someone is benefitting inappropriately...like getting away with something?

I am good with the two assists rule, but it does make the job significantly more difficult (i.e. more difficult for student workers and volunteers) to do consistently.

Not so much a gripe but why does there need to be 2 assists when it is not a soccer norm and open to subjectivity. 

Assists become a useless stat when there is subjectivity involved. 

Quote from: soccerpapa on September 05, 2023, 12:02:38 PM
Not so much a gripe but why does there need to be 2 assists when it is not a soccer norm and open to subjectivity. 

Assists become a useless stat when there is subjectivity involved.

Assists, whether first or second, ARE a useless stat, or at least they are so prone to being over and under-inclusive as to be a misleading measure of whether a player has vision and passing ability.  They leave out a ton of plays that help create a goal, like the striker who makes a move to drag a defender out of the play or the players who make great passes or dribbles in the build-up to the goal, as well as the passes that don't lead to goals because of poor strikers (which is why "chance creation" is viewed as a better metric of playmaking), and they include very simple passes that could not possibly have resulted in a goal without the brilliance of the striker or the error of the defender/GK, which is itself a deviation from the original, stricter, measure of an assist.

There's a reason why the IFAB doesn't specify criteria for measuring an "assist," meaning that leagues internationally use their own differing criteria.  FIFA didn't even unofficially track the stat until the 1986 World Cup and only tracked it for the first time officially in the 1994 World Cup in the US, which some attributed to the fact that statistics (like assists from the NBA or MLB) were popular in the US because of the nascent fantasy leagues (e.g., Rotisserie League baseball) and they were hoping to attract more American fans.  If it helps you ignore them, you can consider assists in soccer as anti-traditional pandering to Americans.

From a modern pro coach's perspective, assists are anachronisms from an era when you might want a proxy for which players are playmakers.  With film of every game available to coaches and more sophisticated "every touch" analytical tools that measure "goals added" by how each player's touch increases the goal creation chances, they are probably too deceiving to be relied on other than perhaps a signal to figure out who to look at more closely.

For post-season awards, D3 soccer is so regionally/league focused that coaches and voters should pay enough attention to games to look beyond mere assist numbers by the end of the season.  To the extent that assists and goals are used poorly during awards season, it's probably for defenders because they have so few goals and assists that a couple can give the edge to one defender over another by someone too busy/lazy to go back and watch their actual defending (of the player and not just the team and its goals against average) and the circumstances that led to the actual assist/goal.  Beyond that, if a kid gets a second assist and it makes them feel good about themselves, I don't see any harm at all.  No one is winning awards on second assists alone.

Great commentary and thoughts on the assist subject. Subjectivity, and especially differences in the way staff or officials award assists does seem to make the statistic less useful. Many programs just don't award two assists.   

10.5.5 A corner kick, throw-in or free kick leading to a goal each counts as a pass in awarding assists.

Clarifying question: On a long throw-in into the box, if the ball deflects off a defender first, but the offensive player gains immediate possession for a shot and goal, is the throw still awarded an assist? Or does it need to be bang-bang same team, or is that also subjective?  The rules seem to indicate yes, but that also appears to be highly subjective in both opinion and among official scorers. 

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 05, 2023, 10:49:04 AM
What exactly is underlying the gripe on assists?  Is there an implication that someone is benefitting inappropriately...like getting away with something?

I agree with this.  Whether it is American/unfootball, who is to say.  Maybe it is appropriate to award some left or right back who hustles his tail down the flank time after time to make a great cross for an easy header. Back in the day, some lughead like me playing back would get 5 yards beyond the midfield before the coach would yell at me to get back.  Or that really, really good holding back/midfielder whose role may not be to score makes that crucial pass that no one could even imagine coming when it splits the defender so that the stiker just has to run onto it. Every assist may not be like this in that the striker had to do a bunch more to score.  I would think that is the exception in D3 soccer which is not known for many great strikers (or at least recently).

FYI, on the first F&M goal with 13 min remaining and during the run of play was made when player over on the right side swung it to the left side where that left back had hustled forward enough to be close to the Stevens endline so he was able one time center a very smooth pass the striker. They did not give a "second" assist to the person who swung it to the left back. The one timer by the left back was so well placed for the on coming striker that he easily pushed it into the net. I think the left back's play deserved some recognition. See link to highlight below.

Also you could argue that both F&M goals deserved a second assist, but the scorer chose to only award the second assist to the person who took the free kick. Ball never hit the ground till the back of the net on the second goal. You will see that was a perfect strike to the player on the left side and he only had to slightly adjust his position while the ball was in the air.  The striker who scored has a great knack for scoring goals with his head and outmaneuvered the Stevens player.   

https://www.hudl.com/video/2/222578/64f3fad38cdefb0410dd5d04

Keepers still get saves when a "shot" is not even close to threatening. It just had to be on goal. Keepers get no credit on the stat sheet when they go up and catch (SimpleCoach's favorite technique) or punch great crosses in the middle of traffic while getting wrecked on the way down. 

No stat is going to be perfect. Subjectivity does play a part, but not giving a second assist on the 1st goal cuts against many of the people's arguments as to the home town scorer.

Kuiper said it so much more eloquently than I ever could have.

here is my gripe (if you want to call it that) - it just rubs me wrong when I hear "so and so had X goals and X assists they should have been All conference/region/american" implying others with less robust stats shouldn't have.  This leaves off those that make the plays that don't show up in the stats.  Add questionable "2nd assists" and this is only compounded.   

Quote from: soccerpapa on September 05, 2023, 02:11:11 PM
Kuiper said it so much more eloquently than I ever could have.

here is my gripe (if you want to call it that) - it just rubs me wrong when I hear "so and so had X goals and X assists they should have been All conference/region/american" implying others with less robust stats shouldn't have.  This leaves off those that make the plays that don't show up in the stats.  Add questionable "2nd assists" and this is only compounded.

Appreciate the additional explanation.

It's interesting to me because 6-8 years ago there were notable complaints from a few NESCAC folks that some of their best players missed out on national awards because of deceptive stats caused by a combo of the shorter NESCAC season and less scoring because of the overall quality of NESCAC defenses. 

I think that concern has diminished because even though NESCAC always has had the most active thread on the site and garnered a ton of attention, it's really been in the last 3-4 years that most of us who hang out here have fully accepted the dominance of the conference.  And while it's unrealistic to think that more than a few here truly have knowledge across the D3 landscape, I think it's also harder for a phenomenal player at say, a Milwaukee School of Engineering (MSOE), to go unnoticed.    Finally, my sense is that coaches have a large say in awards...certainly at the conference level but probably also nationally.  Sorry, will also add that if any school's official scorer is dramatically out of line that this info would become known over time.  It's rare to see players listed with 3 goals and 18 assists.  Usually there is a little more symmetry., and usually when we see a player especially at D3's "power 5" schools with gaudy stats we've already identified that player as a stud.

I know it's the players' welfare that we are most concerned with, given the nature of D3 scheduling, but just a special shout out to the regular posters here.  Some of you have started with a real intensity, I am just hoping you will be able to keep it up.  In the  national tournament of D3 pundits, it feels like some of the AQ spots are already spoken for.  My only worry is that some of you, like some of the teams mentioned, could be guilty of peaking too early.  There is a real risk of over-interpreting outcomes, literally after week one, essentially because we have been starved of games.  It's a long season people, stay the course. 

PN's Petty-Party Corner


Time-wasting...

GK's are the "most skilled" at this...but the nonsense that happens to get a throw-in accomplished is a strong second.  And the nonsense seems to be starting earlier and earlier.  I happened to notice one game where the GK started catching slow rollers and falling to the ground on top of the ball with no opponents within 25 yards with 30 minutes left IN THE FIRST HALF!  Wait as long as possible to touch the ball, then fall on it and stay on the ground for 10 seconds, slowly get up, and then take another 15 seconds to punt, throw, or lay the ball back down on the ground.  Over the course of the match I bet he bled 10-12 minutes out of the game. And the throw-in delays joined in at the beginning of the second half.  Referees of course could put a stop to this stuff quite easily.

Quote from: EnmoreCat on September 05, 2023, 03:25:57 PM
I know it's the players' welfare that we are most concerned with, given the nature of D3 scheduling, but just a special shout out to the regular posters here.  Some of you have started with a real intensity, I am just hoping you will be able to keep it up.  In the  national tournament of D3 pundits, it feels like some of the AQ spots are already spoken for.  My only worry is that some of you, like some of the teams mentioned, could be guilty of peaking too early.  There is a real risk of over-interpreting outcomes, literally after week one, essentially because we have been starved of games.  It's a long season people, stay the course.

OK, I'll indulge...while I still have some 'real intensity.'

Your 'only worry'?  'A real risk'?  Like what are you worried could happen?  Seriously, what is your worst case scenario? 

As for D3 pundit AQs, they are free and unlimited.  Grab one on the big table just outside the door if you wish.  You will be instantly deputized and bestowed with all the perks and resources that the rest of us in our very exclusive club enjoy.

P.S. If you're going to spend a large portion of your days and nights hanging out on the board why not post?  I mean, beyond being quizzical about why others are posting on a posting board?

(https://y.yarn.co/2f2fc57e-7522-434e-a638-edc440ad1c0f_text.gif)

Three games in and Washington & Lee still hasn't scored a goal.  0-0 tie to Stockton.  It's not like they aren't getting shots (14), shots on goal (6), or corner kicks (8). 

I guess the good news is W&L's defense is doing well (Stockton scored 4 against Centenary of NJ).

Quote from: Kuiper on September 05, 2023, 06:50:11 PM
Three games in and Washington & Lee still hasn't scored a goal.  0-0 tie to Stockton.  It's not like they aren't getting shots (14), shots on goal (6), or corner kicks (8). 

I guess the good news is W&L's defense is doing well (Stockton scored 4 against Centenary of NJ).

Watched game and would that while both had excellent chances, W&L had the better. Need a finisher.

Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on September 05, 2023, 07:00:36 PM

Quote from: Kuiper on September 05, 2023, 06:50:11 PM
Three games in and Washington & Lee still hasn't scored a goal.  0-0 tie to Stockton.  It's not like they aren't getting shots (14), shots on goal (6), or corner kicks (8). 

I guess the good news is W&L's defense is doing well (Stockton scored 4 against Centenary of NJ).

Watched game and would that while both had excellent chances, W&L had the better. Need a finisher.

Just thought they were imprecise in the final third.

SC.

Quote from: SimpleCoach on September 05, 2023, 07:02:57 PM

Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on September 05, 2023, 07:00:36 PM

Quote from: Kuiper on September 05, 2023, 06:50:11 PM
Three games in and Washington & Lee still hasn't scored a goal.  0-0 tie to Stockton.  It's not like they aren't getting shots (14), shots on goal (6), or corner kicks (8). 

I guess the good news is W&L's defense is doing well (Stockton scored 4 against Centenary of NJ).

Watched game and would that while both had excellent chances, W&L had the better. Need a finisher.

Just thought they were imprecise in the final third.

SC.

The story of D3 soccer unfortunately. Sure rasor thin margins. W&L could be 3-0,  0-3, 1-1-1 all very possible results. I think no OT may be hurting some teams more than others.

Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on September 05, 2023, 07:16:08 PM

Quote from: SimpleCoach on September 05, 2023, 07:02:57 PM

Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on September 05, 2023, 07:00:36 PM

Quote from: Kuiper on September 05, 2023, 06:50:11 PM
Three games in and Washington & Lee still hasn't scored a goal.  0-0 tie to Stockton.  It's not like they aren't getting shots (14), shots on goal (6), or corner kicks (8). 

I guess the good news is W&L's defense is doing well (Stockton scored 4 against Centenary of NJ).

Watched game and would that while both had excellent chances, W&L had the better. Need a finisher.

Just thought they were imprecise in the final third.

SC.

The story of D3 soccer unfortunately. Sure rasor thin margins. W&L could be 3-0,  0-3, 1-1-1 all very possible results. I think no OT may be hurting some teams more than others.

Agreed.  Also thought they were a bit flat. 

SC.

I was at the game. I know Coach Singleton is pleased that the defense has only given up one goal in three games. The offense isn't quite clicking. They are integrating some new first years and the team hasn't completely jelled yet. Given Coach Singleton is also a professor of sports psychology,  I am confident the pieces will come together.

My son is playing a different position than the one he played at W&L for the past two years, so that's fun too.

Quote from: Another Mom on September 05, 2023, 07:53:38 PM
I was at the game. I know Coach Singleton is pleased that the defense has only given up one goal in three games. The offense isn't quite clicking. They are integrating some new first years and the team hasn't completely jelled yet. Given Coach Singleton is also a professor of sports psychology,  I am confident the pieces will come together.

My son is playing a different position than the one he played at W&L for the past two years, so that's fun too.

And he's getting great time too. That's gotta be fun to watch as well. Good luck this season.

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 05, 2023, 03:18:26 PM

Big SNIP ...

It's rare to see players listed with 3 goals and 18 assists.  Usually there is a little more symmetry., and usually when we see a player especially at D3's "power 5" schools with gaudy stats we've already identified that player as a stud.

Interesting point.

Just to see what I'd find, I looked up all of the 30 G / 30 A players in Messiah history. Here's the full list:

Geoff Pezon (07-10)  54   46
Jim Blouch (78-81)   63   31
Jeremy Payne (11-14)   61   31
Dave Brandt (81-84)   55   35
Jack Thompson (11-14)   35   50
Jake Sauer (99-02)   39   36
Marlin Benedict (72-75)   31   30

Presumably, all of these guys were very good, and all those I've seen were "studs." I never saw Blouch, but I met him once and Layton Shoemaker thought he might have been the fastest player he ever coached. I know nothing about Benedict; if anyone does, please weigh in. Nor did I see Brandt in real games, though I often saw him in pickup games indoors when he was an assistant coach. Just a great all-around player.

I did see the other four many times. Most here probably don't remember Sauer, a winger whose free kick won the national final 1-0 over Otterbein in the snow at St Lawrence for the Falcons' first title. Saint of Old might have seen that in person. As the numbers indicate, he was really good at sending balls across the goal mouth. PN and several others here saw Thompson, perhaps the greatest 1/v/1 winger in Falcon history. He had an amazing ability to break people down and to find the open man that his motion just created. Not too surprising that he's the only player on this list with more assists than goals, and it's not that close. Pezon got a ton of his assists on corner kicks, especially to the head of Josh Wood, but he was also dynamite in the open field--fast, very quick to maneuver, and left footed (like Thompson). Payne tended to get "easy" assists in front of the goal.

As an afterthought, I looked up Kent Kelly, who played just 3 years starting in 1977 (apparently missed a full season to injury?). He had 61 and 23. Had he played all four years, he'd probably be the all-time leading scorer at Messiah. Dave Brandt matched his point total in 4 years, and the great Nick West was 7 behind them. I never saw Kelly play for the Falcons—I lived in Philly back then. However, I saw him often in high school, where he was a starting point guard in basketball as well as a soccer star, because my wife was his English teacher. He could pass behind his back in both sports, as it were. Like Brandt, he was short, quick, and smart. Yet, he wasn't actually the best player on his HS team--that would be a boy born in Brazil, who liked bicycle kicks and went D1.

So, I have to agree with PN: at least for the best players in D3, consistently having more assists than goals is uncommon. It says something not only about a player's position, but also his style of play.

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 05, 2023, 05:28:16 PM

Quote from: EnmoreCat on September 05, 2023, 03:25:57 PM
I know it's the players' welfare that we are most concerned with, given the nature of D3 scheduling, but just a special shout out to the regular posters here.  Some of you have started with a real intensity, I am just hoping you will be able to keep it up.  In the  national tournament of D3 pundits, it feels like some of the AQ spots are already spoken for.  My only worry is that some of you, like some of the teams mentioned, could be guilty of peaking too early.  There is a real risk of over-interpreting outcomes, literally after week one, essentially because we have been starved of games.  It's a long season people, stay the course.

OK, I'll indulge...while I still have some 'real intensity.'

Your 'only worry'?  'A real risk'?  Like what are you worried could happen?  Seriously, what is your worst case scenario? 

As for D3 pundit AQs, they are free and unlimited.  Grab one on the big table just outside the door if you wish.  You will be instantly deputized and bestowed with all the perks and resources that the rest of us in our very exclusive club enjoy.

P.S. If you're going to spend a large portion of your days and nights hanging out on the board why not post?  I mean, beyond being quizzical about why others are posting on a posting board?

I am clearly going to have to upgrade my attempts at humour, this cross cultural stuff is clearly a challenge for me.  My point really was that to me, it feels premature to write off teams on the basis of one game.  A lot of very good teams have already lost a game, but it might be the last one they lose for some time quite possibly too.  Anyway, if I have given anyone pause from prognosticating, please don't mind me. 

Quote from: Ejay on September 05, 2023, 08:42:33 PM

And he's getting great time too. That's gotta be fun to watch as well. Good luck this season.

Much more fun to watch him play than sit on the bench :-)

Quote from: EnmoreCat on September 06, 2023, 03:50:37 AM

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 05, 2023, 05:28:16 PM

Quote from: EnmoreCat on September 05, 2023, 03:25:57 PM
I know it's the players' welfare that we are most concerned with, given the nature of D3 scheduling, but just a special shout out to the regular posters here.  Some of you have started with a real intensity, I am just hoping you will be able to keep it up.  In the  national tournament of D3 pundits, it feels like some of the AQ spots are already spoken for.  My only worry is that some of you, like some of the teams mentioned, could be guilty of peaking too early.  There is a real risk of over-interpreting outcomes, literally after week one, essentially because we have been starved of games.  It's a long season people, stay the course.

OK, I'll indulge...while I still have some 'real intensity.'

Your 'only worry'?  'A real risk'?  Like what are you worried could happen?  Seriously, what is your worst case scenario? 

As for D3 pundit AQs, they are free and unlimited.  Grab one on the big table just outside the door if you wish.  You will be instantly deputized and bestowed with all the perks and resources that the rest of us in our very exclusive club enjoy.

P.S. If you're going to spend a large portion of your days and nights hanging out on the board why not post?  I mean, beyond being quizzical about why others are posting on a posting board?

I am clearly going to have to upgrade my attempts at humour, this cross cultural stuff is clearly a challenge for me.  My point really was that to me, it feels premature to write off teams on the basis of one game.  A lot of very good teams have already lost a game, but it might be the last one they lose for some time quite possibly too.  Anyway, if I have given anyone pause from prognosticating, please don't mind me.

I understood where you were coming from! Maybe some don't realize the Aussie sense of humor one has to keep in mind when reading your posts.

Quote from: Another Mom on September 05, 2023, 07:53:38 PM
I was at the game. I know Coach Singleton is pleased that the defense has only given up one goal in three games. The offense isn't quite clicking. They are integrating some new first years and the team hasn't completely jelled yet. Given Coach Singleton is also a professor of sports psychology,  I am confident the pieces will come together.

My son is playing a different position than the one he played at W&L for the past two years, so that's fun too.

Definitely, Mike has all the tools and is an excellent coach. Totally can be overcome.  W&L lost to Messiah first game last season and then went on a tear the rest of the season. Son's team lost 3-0 to Stevens on a very hot day while be totally flat all game. Did not lose for 14 games straight.

FYI, W&L played in the stadium field at the Maryland Soccerplex with has somewhere between 20-30 fields. The stadium is surrounded on three sides and covered fence on 4th. NWSL team used to play home games there. Son played several top level club games there in the summer and early fall.  Crazy hot despite grass field and no air movement. W&L also just played its 3rd game in 5 days.   

That's an anomaly at the Soccerplex. I've played/coached hundreds of games up there and there's almost always a breeze/wind coming out of the west.

Quote from: Hopkins92 on September 06, 2023, 10:55:50 AM
That's an anomaly at the Soccerplex. I've played/coached hundreds of games up there and there's almost always a breeze/wind coming out of the west.

On the fields, but also in the Stadium?

Quote from: Another Mom on September 06, 2023, 08:10:52 AM
I understood where you were coming from! Maybe some don't realize the Aussie sense of humor one has to keep in mind when reading your posts.

So, part The Road Warrior and part Ozzy Man Reviews?

Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on September 06, 2023, 11:26:10 AM

Quote from: Hopkins92 on September 06, 2023, 10:55:50 AM
That's an anomaly at the Soccerplex. I've played/coached hundreds of games up there and there's almost always a breeze/wind coming out of the west.

On the fields, but also in the Stadium?

I've definitely seen it quite blustery and I've seen what you experienced, which is dead air compounded by it being somewhat closed off. But the wind isn't really blocked on the northeast/north side of the field where it's just fencing and not seating. And that's often the direction the wind is traveling up there (I said west, but looking again at Google it more out of the NW.)

Anyways, certainly not trying to tell it wasn't hot as Hades. :D Just more commenting that it's kind of known for the wind affecting play.

It was incredibly hot, mostly due to the weather,  which had a "real feel" of 100 degrees at 5 pm. I did feel a slight breeze in the stands, don't know if it was felt on the field.  Stadium was very nice!

Enmorecat (and Another Mom), I don't want to make this a big deal which I've been known to do in the past, but I don't think the issue is a translation (or lack of appreciation for humor) problem.

There is humor for the sake of humor, and then there is trying to make a point and using humor around it to make the digestion a little easier.  My take is that the latter is more accurate in your case.  You clearly have been irritated by some of the posting, going back to the Spring when, you, ironically were on the board yourself and tried to nicely (humorously?) chastise folks into enjoying some beach time, then the shot at the LL crew for posting too much for your liking, and then the most recent.  Btw, who argued that the fate of entire seasons has already been determined?  Or are we not supposed to comment on strong or weak or middling starts?  The other interesting thing here is that you said you were trying to make a point about not writing off a team after one game, but at least the two prior pages in the thread were solely or almost solely about how folks feel about crediting assists.  I not sure what post or posts you're actually responding to...but at any rate, I think it's OK if any of us diverge in our opinions from time to time.  For instance, I think Calvin is going to be very good and some others aren't so convinced.  That's fine.  That's discussion.  And if I say a team is "done," and I end up being wrong, I'm pretty sure any jail time is gonna be pretty limited (humor).

Guys, it's just a message board. I appreciate each and every poster, most *especially* PaulNewman and Enmorecat!

The only poster I didn't appreciate was the guy with the recruiting service a couple of years ago who claimed he knew every d3 program in the country. He was a shyster, and didn't like being called out. Though, once he was, he left the board, thank goodness.

Widener takes the lead 1-0 over Swat in the 86th minute.....on a double assist lol.  Fatiga had to get on the scoresheet somehow.

F&M 3-2 over Lebanon Valley.  Horowitz scored the game winner in the 87th minute. Not as dramatic as his 89th minute winner vs. Stevens, but still...

Quote from: Ejay on September 06, 2023, 07:02:03 PM
F&M 3-2 over Lebanon Valley.  Horowitz scored the game winner in the 87th minute. Not as dramatic as his 89th minute winner vs. Stevens, but still...

And Leb Valley led 2-1 pretty late.

Early scorelines that I find interesting:

MIT up 1-0 on Tufts at halftime (UPDATE) 

Second half - Tufts is now up 3-1 in the 76th minute

Cal Tech up 4-0 on Life Pacific at halftime. It's starting to look like three wins for the Beavers, which would be a historic start to the season and I think tied for the second best win total in 30 years (UPDATE) 

Second half - 4-1 with 18 minutes to go. 

Averett and Davidson (D1) 0-0 at halftime (UPDATE)

Second half - Davidson up 1-0 in the 73rd minute.  Davidson leads on shots 15-0, but Averett is still doing its best to keep the bus parked

Quote from: Kuiper on September 06, 2023, 07:19:19 PM
Early scorelines that I find interesting:

MIT up 1-0 on Tufts at halftime (UPDATE) 

Second half - Tufts is now up 3-1 in the 76th minute

Cal Tech up 4-0 on Life Pacific at halftime. It's starting to look like three wins for the Beavers, which would be a historic start to the season and I think tied for the second best win total in 30 years (UPDATE) 

Second half - 4-1 with 18 minutes to go. 

Averett and Davidson (D1) 0-0 at halftime (UPDATE)

Second half - Davidson up 1-0 in the 73rd minute.  Davidson leads on shots 15-0, but Averett is still doing its best to keep the bus parked

Thank you +1

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 06, 2023, 07:03:22 PM

Quote from: Ejay on September 06, 2023, 07:02:03 PM
F&M 3-2 over Lebanon Valley.  Horowitz scored the game winner in the 87th minute. Not as dramatic as his 89th minute winner vs. Stevens, but still...

And Leb Valley led 2-1 pretty late.

Yup F&M scored on a banger from outside in the upper 90 where keeper could only stare. LVC then scored two very nice goals in the next 15. Both teams played so-so the rest of the half. Second half I don't think LVC had a shot.  F&M started to dominate in every part but the final 1/3rd. Tying goal was a phenomenal free kick that the keeper could only stare at. Winning goal was an experienced taller striker taking advantage of a smaller young keeper in the final minutes.

Not as crazy as the Stevens game but it would have been the first time in over 30 years LVC would have won.

One thing that has not been discussed recently is depth of benches. Despite being down 2-1 to a team that on paper they should be beating, F&M played 16 yes 16. Subs.  Couple played 8:min, one played 54 min. Only the keeper played 90. FYI F&M  played 9 subs against Stevens.

Coach obviously trusted his talent on his bench. If they went down 3-1 that might of changed. How many coaches do you all know who do this? FYI he did it despite the 2 water breaks.

Also, and this is only a theory, do you think playing a lot of subs early in the season where it is hot and where you're not sure of your team, will this pay off later when injuries mount, games get tighter and also closer together?  F&M does this all season.

As you all also, players can go seasons without playing. F&M definitely seems to be walking a tightrope while keeping the whole team engaged.

What are your thoughts?

Quote from: Kuiper on September 06, 2023, 07:19:19 PM
Early scorelines that I find interesting:

MIT up 1-0 on Tufts at halftime (UPDATE) 

Second half - Tufts is now up 3-1 in the 76th minute

Cal Tech up 4-0 on Life Pacific at halftime. It's starting to look like three wins for the Beavers, which would be a historic start to the season and I think tied for the second best win total in 30 years (UPDATE) 

Second half - 4-1 with 18 minutes to go. 

Averett and Davidson (D1) 0-0 at halftime (UPDATE)

Second half - Davidson up 1-0 in the 73rd minute.  Davidson leads on shots 15-0, but Averett is still doing its best to keep the bus parked

So, my underdog specials are all finished.

MIT held tough with that opening goal, but ultimately ran out of steam in the second half and lost to Tufts 4-1.

Averett was kind of the same story.  They parked the bus as long as they could -- it's tough to withstand 19 shots when you only take 1 yourself -- and they lost 3-0 to D1 Davidson.  To Averett's credit, Davidson generally played its starters or at least regular rotation players.  Only one starter had less than 100 minutes in Davidson's first two games of the season and he had 80.  They did give two players their first minutes of the season, but every other player who played this game played decent minutes in their first two games against D1 sides Presbyterian and Virginia Tech.  This wasn't a case where Averett held out against Davidson's deep D1-ish bench players until the real D1 players came in and saved the day.

BUT . . . Cal Tech blew out Life Pacific 5-1 in what was probably their biggest margin of victory in school history.  A game that started with what appeared to be two people in the stands ended with at least 10-12, so word obviously got around campus.  To their credit, they played it cool at the end and didn't celebrate while their opponents were around.  They know how that feels.  Seriously, though, Cal Tech, which won two games in the SCIAC last year for the first time ever and tied eventual champion Chapman, is going to beat some teams in conference this year.  Right now, they sit atop the SCIAC standings with a 3-0 non-conference record. 

Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on September 06, 2023, 09:12:43 PM

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 06, 2023, 07:03:22 PM

Quote from: Ejay on September 06, 2023, 07:02:03 PM
F&M 3-2 over Lebanon Valley.  Horowitz scored the game winner in the 87th minute. Not as dramatic as his 89th minute winner vs. Stevens, but still...

And Leb Valley led 2-1 pretty late.

Yup F&M scored on a banger from outside in the upper 90 where keeper could only stare. LVC then scored two very nice goals in the next 15. Both teams played so-so the rest of the half. Second half I don't think LVC had a shot.  F&M started to dominate in every part but the final 1/3rd. Tying goal was a phenomenal free kick that the keeper could only stare at. Winning goal was an experienced taller striker taking advantage of a smaller young keeper in the final minutes.

Not as crazy as the Stevens game but it would have been the first time in over 30 years LVC would have won.

One thing that has not been discussed recently is depth of benches. Despite being down 2-1 to a team that on paper they should be beating, F&M played 16 yes 16. Subs.  Couple played 8:min, one played 54 min. Only the keeper played 90. FYI F&M  played 9 subs against Stevens.

Coach obviously trusted his talent on his bench. If they went down 3-1 that might of changed. How many coaches do you all know who do this? FYI he did it despite the 2 water breaks.

Also, and this is only a theory, do you think playing a lot of subs early in the season where it is hot and where you're not sure of your team, will this pay off later when injuries mount, games get tighter and also closer together?  F&M does this all season.

As you all also, players can go seasons without playing. F&M definitely seems to be walking a tightrope while keeping the whole team engaged.

What are your thoughts?

I think it's always important to play subs. For team morale, for some experience if they have to replace injured players, to rest starters a bit so they don't get injured.

W&L's coach subs liberally with almost everyone getting minutes. He especially rotates virtually all freshmen subs into every game.

Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on September 06, 2023, 09:12:43 PM

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 06, 2023, 07:03:22 PM

Quote from: Ejay on September 06, 2023, 07:02:03 PM
F&M 3-2 over Lebanon Valley.  Horowitz scored the game winner in the 87th minute. Not as dramatic as his 89th minute winner vs. Stevens, but still...

And Leb Valley led 2-1 pretty late.

Yup F&M scored on a banger from outside in the upper 90 where keeper could only stare. LVC then scored two very nice goals in the next 15. Both teams played so-so the rest of the half. Second half I don't think LVC had a shot.  F&M started to dominate in every part but the final 1/3rd. Tying goal was a phenomenal free kick that the keeper could only stare at. Winning goal was an experienced taller striker taking advantage of a smaller young keeper in the final minutes.

Not as crazy as the Stevens game but it would have been the first time in over 30 years LVC would have won.

One thing that has not been discussed recently is depth of benches. Despite being down 2-1 to a team that on paper they should be beating, F&M played 16 yes 16. Subs.  Couple played 8:min, one played 54 min. Only the keeper played 90. FYI F&M  played 9 subs against Stevens.

Coach obviously trusted his talent on his bench. If they went down 3-1 that might of changed. How many coaches do you all know who do this? FYI he did it despite the 2 water breaks.

Also, and this is only a theory, do you think playing a lot of subs early in the season where it is hot and where you're not sure of your team, will this pay off later when injuries mount, games get tighter and also closer together?  F&M does this all season.

As you all also, players can go seasons without playing. F&M definitely seems to be walking a tightrope while keeping the whole team engaged.

What are your thoughts?

Alright, I guess I'm going to get on here and defend the MAC a bit because someone is talking crazy.  LVC had 6 shots in the second half (not 0) to F&M's 8, including a couple of transition chances that they could have converted if they executed better.  Tying goal went through the middle of a jumping wall.  If the wall doesn't split up, that gets blocked.  Winning goal was a good heads up play against a Senior goalkeeper who was slow off his line but otherwise solid throughout the game.  Overall, I think a tie would have been a fair result on the balance of play, but credit to F&M for grinding out the win in their usual fashion.  Similar to the Stevens game where they were outplayed for large stretches but pulled it out

It was 96 degrees.  Both teams played a lot of subs.  Box score says F&M used 15, LVC 14.  So, I guess I know at least 1 other coach who does it,  LVC's.   

No repeat undefeated season for Western CT.  They give up the lead 2x and lose at home to Drew in the 84th minute.

Quote from: Another Mom on September 06, 2023, 09:32:56 PM

Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on September 06, 2023, 09:12:43 PM

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 06, 2023, 07:03:22 PM

Quote from: Ejay on September 06, 2023, 07:02:03 PM
F&M 3-2 over Lebanon Valley.  Horowitz scored the game winner in the 87th minute. Not as dramatic as his 89th minute winner vs. Stevens, but still...

And Leb Valley led 2-1 pretty late.

Yup F&M scored on a banger from outside in the upper 90 where keeper could only stare. LVC then scored two very nice goals in the next 15. Both teams played so-so the rest of the half. Second half I don't think LVC had a shot.  F&M started to dominate in every part but the final 1/3rd. Tying goal was a phenomenal free kick that the keeper could only stare at. Winning goal was an experienced taller striker taking advantage of a smaller young keeper in the final minutes.

Not as crazy as the Stevens game but it would have been the first time in over 30 years LVC would have won.

One thing that has not been discussed recently is depth of benches. Despite being down 2-1 to a team that on paper they should be beating, F&M played 16 yes 16. Subs.  Couple played 8:min, one played 54 min. Only the keeper played 90. FYI F&M  played 9 subs against Stevens.

Coach obviously trusted his talent on his bench. If they went down 3-1 that might of changed. How many coaches do you all know who do this? FYI he did it despite the 2 water breaks.

Also, and this is only a theory, do you think playing a lot of subs early in the season where it is hot and where you're not sure of your team, will this pay off later when injuries mount, games get tighter and also closer together?  F&M does this all season.

As you all also, players can go seasons without playing. F&M definitely seems to be walking a tightrope while keeping the whole team engaged.

What are your thoughts?

I think it's always important to play subs. For team morale, for some experience if they have to replace injured players, to rest starters a bit so they don't get injured.

W&L's coach subs liberally with almost everyone getting minutes. He especially rotates virtually all freshmen subs into every game.

*Except goalkeepers.  This is the one exception even in programs that do liberally substitute. Not only do freshman GKs rarely get minutes at most schools, but they can go four years with virtually no minutes.  :(

I'm still not sure how much quality of video and especially proximity to the field combined with camera angle impacts my impressions...The Wesleyan video (in spite of the football lines) I thought was excellent and I felt like I had a close to field level view but still high enough to get most of the field most of the time...and in that context I thought Wesleyan looked really good.  I didn't see the whole game so my impressions are based off of watching several 10-12 minute segments.  NYU was very competitive but despite their physicality they seem a little fragile and the body language doesn't always feel great.  Their superstar played 80 minutes and had zero shots according to the box score.  Speaking of physicality, the match was very physical and at times chippy.  I was shocked to see in the box score that the ref apparently only called 9 total fouls.  I wonder if that contributed to the game looking like it might get out of hand.  Wesleyan won 1-0 off a 2nd half PK.

Ah, yes, goalkeepers excepted, of course. W&L seems to have 4 gks, but really only the starting gk plays. Our keeper became the starter last year, which was his freshman year. What a tough position for the other keepers!

[/quote]

Alright, I guess I'm going to get on here and defend the MAC a bit because someone is talking crazy.  LVC had 6 shots in the second half (not 0) to F&M's 8, including a couple of transition chances that they could have converted if they executed better.  Tying goal went through the middle of a jumping wall.  If the wall doesn't split up, that gets blocked.  Winning goal was a good heads up play against a Senior goalkeeper who was slow off his line but otherwise solid throughout the game.  Overall, I think a tie would have been a fair result on the balance of play, but credit to F&M for grinding out the win in their usual fashion.  Similar to the Stevens game where they were outplayed for large stretches but pulled it out

It was 96 degrees.  Both teams played a lot of subs.  Box score says F&M used 15, LVC 14.  So, I guess I know at least 1 other coach who does it,  LVC's.
[/quote]

A lot of fair points there. As to LVC shots on goal, they did have 6 shots in the second half but none on goal after the 55th minute. Definitely wrong as to the year of LVC's keeper.  Agree that Stevens outplayed F&M for 70 odd minutes. Also agree that much of the first 45 min. LVC played well. Poor vision on my part in that the LVC wall broke apart. LVC probably deserved a tie, but also F&M hit a post in second half. Lot of luck on F&M's part in some ways. LVC is a good team and are playing a lot of good teams ahead. They should do well.   

One thing is that when a team is down 2-1 for 50 odd minutes (from when LVC made to 2-1 until F&M tied), I don't know if I would have the guts to play 16 subs which included all of their starters taken off at some point.  In some ways, LVC had more latitude to sub extensively with the lead. A lot of coaches from my experience ride or die with their top 15 or 16 players especially when they are down a goal. 

PN's pretty useless trivia corner

Wesleyan has 5 players from Montclair, NJ.... Montclair St has 0.

Anyone with insight into Wesleyan's Montclair pipeline specifically and NJ in general?

One of the best things that ever happened to me was a senior got my contact information as an incoming freshmen. He and his roommates (pillars of that team) had me come up to Baltimore in July for a workout.

I guess I impressed them enough that they started lobbying the coach to put me in from the jump. Took 3 games and not so great results for the guy to pull the trigger. I absolutely had pangs of guilt for GKs older than me, but... There's a certain mentality with keepers. We absolutely do not like rotations or subbing or any of that. I don't know why, but it's definitely a thing.

I was livid when, during my senior year, coach rotated me out a few halves to let the upcoming guy get some minutes. Irrational? Yes. Goalies are not known for rationality.

Quote from: Hopkins92 on September 07, 2023, 12:30:25 PM
One of the best things that ever happened to me was a senior got my contact information as an incoming freshmen. He and his roommates (pillars of that team) had me come up to Baltimore in July for a workout.

I guess I impressed them enough that they started lobbying the coach to put me in from the jump. Took 3 games and not so great results for the guy to pull the trigger. I absolutely had pangs of guilt for GKs older than me, but... There's a certain mentality with keepers. We absolutely do not like rotations or subbing or any of that. I don't know why, but it's definitely a thing.

I was livid when, during my senior year, coach rotated me out a few halves to let the upcoming guy get some minutes. Irrational? Yes. Goalies are not known for rationality.

With a greater number of youth GKs competing for fewer spots in the top leagues, I think it's more common for strong GKs to rotate halves than it used to be, although they also can rotate games in that circumstance too.  If a coach does rotate halves, though, the GKs want it to be predictable and regular.  Coaches who play mind games with GKs because they think it will help them compete usually just don't really understand keepers.

Quote from: Kuiper on September 07, 2023, 04:11:14 PM

Quote from: Hopkins92 on September 07, 2023, 12:30:25 PM
One of the best things that ever happened to me was a senior got my contact information as an incoming freshmen. He and his roommates (pillars of that team) had me come up to Baltimore in July for a workout.

I guess I impressed them enough that they started lobbying the coach to put me in from the jump. Took 3 games and not so great results for the guy to pull the trigger. I absolutely had pangs of guilt for GKs older than me, but... There's a certain mentality with keepers. We absolutely do not like rotations or subbing or any of that. I don't know why, but it's definitely a thing.

I was livid when, during my senior year, coach rotated me out a few halves to let the upcoming guy get some minutes. Irrational? Yes. Goalies are not known for rationality.

With a greater number of youth GKs competing for fewer spots in the top leagues, I think it's more common for strong GKs to rotate halves than it used to be, although they also can rotate games in that circumstance too.  If a coach does rotate halves, though, the GKs want it to be predictable and regular.  Coaches who play mind games with GKs because they think it will help them compete usually just don't really understand keepers.

This is all my opinion and based on what I observed with my son's experience of being a full time keeper since U-11 so 12-13 years at high levels.

As to keepers today which may have been the same for Hopkins92, coach seem to often commit to one keeper for numerous reasons until injuries, conduct or just bad play. Ride or die attitudes which suits the starting keeper obviously.  Back ups (generally at least 2 or 3) have to work on their resiliency which is really tough especially when they get to college as they most likely were starters all their careers at clubs or high schools.  Keepers know a lot of emotions and often negative.  Starter gives up a soft goal or two and his college career could be over. Starter keeper, but a new shiny object  shows up as a freshman (or grad student for JHU)  at the school and coach loves this person and the previous starter sits perhaps for the rest of his college career. 

As to backup keepers, they have to wonder if their turn will ever come. Coaches from time to time will not tell a recruit that they little or no chance to see the field for their college career other than mop up time which in D3 can be rare. They go out every day and train hard and many end up leaving the team (I purposely do not want to say quit, because of their circumstances) as they want to spend their time doing something they believe is more productive.

Son when through some of this in his D1 college and club team.  Was starter in D1 school till a keeper from overseas joined the team. D1 is a whole different story as it involves scholarship money.  Started all 4years of HS and two years of D3 (missed three games with injuries). Overall, he made his luck by working hard every day to be ready for his opportunities. Had to develop resiliency and did not have anything given to him.

Son who I knew his opinion on this and I am guessing most keepers would absolutely hate splitting halves. Implies either both are equal which is pretty impossible or the coach did not faith in either. Confidence shown by coach means a whole lot to keepers. If the coach does not know keepers or isn't a good communicator then it can be brutal.  What some keepers can deal with is splitting games and after a period the best in the coach's opinion starts the rest of the season.

^^^^^Great post.  Enjoyed reading it.

As my son is a keeper, thought I would chime in here.  He has started every game since arriving as a freshman.  Each year, there have been at least 3 and sometimes 4 other keepers on the roster.  He came out of games twice his freshman year due to injury.  His freshman year, back up keeper comes in against Conn College in NESCAC quarterfinals after not having played since the second game.  Marco Kaper made an unbelievable save in what was then sudden death OT, and then saved two PKs in the shootout to help his team win.  Without that win, they most likely do not make the NCAA tournament in 2019.  The next week, my son was back in against Amherst in the conference semifinal.  Kaper returned for his super senior year in 2021.  He knew the situation, but loved training with the team and being around the guys.  He played 20 minutes his senior year.  Last year, none of the backups played.  Despite that, the bond between the keepers is close.  The guys (and their parents) are all supportive of each other.  I know that each coach handles things differently.  My son has enjoyed his experience, especially knowing that his coaches have complete confidence in him.  If you are a goalkeeper being recruited, the best advice I can give is to ask about philosophy of who gets a chance to earn the job and to what extent the coach believes in rotating in the other keepers.  The key is to make sure everyone is on the same page regarding the plan.

Quote from: College Soccer Observer on September 08, 2023, 09:44:15 AM
As my son is a keeper, thought I would chime in here.  He has started every game since arriving as a freshman.  Each year, there have been at least 3 and sometimes 4 other keepers on the roster.  He came out of games twice his freshman year due to injury.  His freshman year, back up keeper comes in against Conn College in NESCAC quarterfinals after not having played since the second game.  Marco Kaper made an unbelievable save in what was then sudden death OT, and then saved two PKs in the shootout to help his team win.  Without that win, they most likely do not make the NCAA tournament in 2019.  The next week, my son was back in against Amherst in the conference semifinal.  Kaper returned for his super senior year in 2021.  He knew the situation, but loved training with the team and being around the guys.  He played 20 minutes his senior year.  Last year, none of the backups played.  Despite that, the bond between the keepers is close.  The guys (and their parents) are all supportive of each other.  I know that each coach handles things differently.  My son has enjoyed his experience, especially knowing that his coaches have complete confidence in him.  If you are a goalkeeper being recruited, the best advice I can give is to ask about philosophy of who gets a chance to earn the job and to what extent the coach believes in rotating in the other keepers.  The key is to make sure everyone is on the same page regarding the plan.

Seems like most who have chimed in had things work out for themselves or their sons.  What would have you have done if your son had mostly sat for a couple of years?  Would you/he have been willing to wait one year?  Stick it out no matter what?

We will never know, but my son is thrilled to be around his coaches and teammates.  I asked him that question once, and he was emphatic that he would not want to leave, regardless of playing time.

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 08, 2023, 10:43:19 AM

Quote from: College Soccer Observer on September 08, 2023, 09:44:15 AM
As my son is a keeper, thought I would chime in here.  He has started every game since arriving as a freshman.  Each year, there have been at least 3 and sometimes 4 other keepers on the roster.  He came out of games twice his freshman year due to injury.  His freshman year, back up keeper comes in against Conn College in NESCAC quarterfinals after not having played since the second game.  Marco Kaper made an unbelievable save in what was then sudden death OT, and then saved two PKs in the shootout to help his team win.  Without that win, they most likely do not make the NCAA tournament in 2019.  The next week, my son was back in against Amherst in the conference semifinal.  Kaper returned for his super senior year in 2021.  He knew the situation, but loved training with the team and being around the guys.  He played 20 minutes his senior year.  Last year, none of the backups played.  Despite that, the bond between the keepers is close.  The guys (and their parents) are all supportive of each other.  I know that each coach handles things differently.  My son has enjoyed his experience, especially knowing that his coaches have complete confidence in him.  If you are a goalkeeper being recruited, the best advice I can give is to ask about philosophy of who gets a chance to earn the job and to what extent the coach believes in rotating in the other keepers.  The key is to make sure everyone is on the same page regarding the plan.

Seems like most who have chimed in had things work out for themselves or their sons.  What would have you have done if your son had mostly sat for a couple of years?  Would you/he have been willing to wait one year?  Stick it out no matter what?

I can't specifically answer the question @ PaulNewman poses, but one option is to transfer and I can't recall seeing a GK transfer to another D3 school in the hopes of getting playing time, although I'm sure it happens.  It happens all the time in D1, usually because a top school recruits multiple keepers with MLS Academy and USYNT camp experience and the backup keeper's reputation gives them the credibility to attract interest, but my sense is it's much less common in D3.  Part of that may be because it's hard to transfer within D3 given the academic requirements of many small liberal arts colleges.  The reality, however, is that if you haven't much or any college-level film to send to a coach, it would be an unusual situation for that coach to not only recruit you as a transfer but for you to feel confident playing time will get any better.     

The more interesting question is why many backup GKs in D3, who sit on the bench pretty much knowing they will never see the pitch or maybe only see it for a few minutes here and there or in their senior year, stay on the team all four years and don't just quit (although many do).  As College Soccer Observer noted, it's usually because they like training, like the routine the schedule provides, and like the camaraderie of the team.  Here's the reality: In most cases, the backup keepers look decent in practice.  With a few exceptions, they can all make a good save in a shooting drill, they perform pretty well in GK training on all the fundamentals, and they can make the occasional great save in a short-sided game that causes everyone to stop and applaud. Their problem is usually in something more intangible or technical like decision-making, aggressiveness in traffic, command of the box on a cross, 1 v. 1 skills, ability to catch or parry out of trouble rather than push it into danger, ability to use their feet for short, intermediate, and long distribution, or something like that.  You need all of those skills to play 90 as a starter, but you don't need them all to be successful in a lot of training exercises.  So, training can actually be more fun and less stressful for a backup GK than starting if they can adjust their ego to be OK with it and with not being part of the traveling roster if they are deep backups. 

The hardest situation is not being the 3rd or 4th backup, but being the #2.  That means you're probably good enough to start, but just less experienced or maybe a little deficient in one or more areas from the perspective of the coach.  The #1 and the families of the other GKs may think everything is great, but unless the coach has explained very specifically to the #2 what they need to do or when they expect their time will come, the backup can become very frustrated.  The worst is when the difference between the starter and the backup is a simple deficiency in height or athleticism, because the reality is that this actually doesn't impact the game except in a few instances that coaches often over-emphasize.  For example, a smaller or less "bouncy" GK might be able to get everything in their "bubble," while the tall GK gets beaten on low balls to the bottom corner or spills balls that create dangerous situations where another GK might have held the ball, but some coaches have an intense fear about the top corners and focus on those even if the taller keepers miss them most of the time too. Or they simply think taller GKs are more intimidating or commanding, which is kind of hard to prove or disprove.  The backup GK can't change any of that.  It's why it's so important for the GK to go where he is wanted and for the coach to recruit the GKs they can see themselves playing given their biases.

I will say that in the instance I quoted, I complimented Marco on his great game when I saw him the next week, and observed that it had to be hard for him to go back to not playing the next week.  His response--"Yeah, but the kid is a baller. I get it"

Quote from: Kuiper on September 08, 2023, 01:05:26 PM

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 08, 2023, 10:43:19 AM

Quote from: College Soccer Observer on September 08, 2023, 09:44:15 AM
As my son is a keeper, thought I would chime in here.  He has started every game since arriving as a freshman.  Each year, there have been at least 3 and sometimes 4 other keepers on the roster.  He came out of games twice his freshman year due to injury.  His freshman year, back up keeper comes in against Conn College in NESCAC quarterfinals after not having played since the second game.  Marco Kaper made an unbelievable save in what was then sudden death OT, and then saved two PKs in the shootout to help his team win.  Without that win, they most likely do not make the NCAA tournament in 2019.  The next week, my son was back in against Amherst in the conference semifinal.  Kaper returned for his super senior year in 2021.  He knew the situation, but loved training with the team and being around the guys.  He played 20 minutes his senior year.  Last year, none of the backups played.  Despite that, the bond between the keepers is close.  The guys (and their parents) are all supportive of each other.  I know that each coach handles things differently.  My son has enjoyed his experience, especially knowing that his coaches have complete confidence in him.  If you are a goalkeeper being recruited, the best advice I can give is to ask about philosophy of who gets a chance to earn the job and to what extent the coach believes in rotating in the other keepers.  The key is to make sure everyone is on the same page regarding the plan.

Seems like most who have chimed in had things work out for themselves or their sons.  What would have you have done if your son had mostly sat for a couple of years?  Would you/he have been willing to wait one year?  Stick it out no matter what?

I can't specifically answer the question @ PaulNewman poses, but one option is to transfer and I can't recall seeing a GK transfer to another D3 school in the hopes of getting playing time, although I'm sure it happens.  It happens all the time in D1, usually because a top school recruits multiple keepers with MLS Academy and USYNT camp experience and the backup keeper's reputation gives them the credibility to attract interest, but my sense is it's much less common in D3.  Part of that may be because it's hard to transfer within D3 given the academic requirements of many small liberal arts colleges.  The reality, however, is that if you haven't much or any college-level film to send to a coach, it would be an unusual situation for that coach to not only recruit you as a transfer but for you to feel confident playing time will get any better.     

The more interesting question is why many backup GKs in D3, who sit on the bench pretty much knowing they will never see the pitch or maybe only see it for a few minutes here and there or in their senior year, stay on the team all four years and don't just quit (although many do).  As College Soccer Observer noted, it's usually because they like training, like the routine the schedule provides, and like the camaraderie of the team.  Here's the reality: In most cases, the backup keepers look decent in practice.  With a few exceptions, they can all make a good save in a shooting drill, they perform pretty well in GK training on all the fundamentals, and they can make the occasional great save in a short-sided game that causes everyone to stop and applaud. Their problem is usually in something more intangible or technical like decision-making, aggressiveness in traffic, command of the box on a cross, 1 v. 1 skills, ability to catch or parry out of trouble rather than push it into danger, ability to use their feet for short, intermediate, and long distribution, or something like that.  You need all of those skills to play 90 as a starter, but you don't need them all to be successful in a lot of training exercises.  So, training can actually be more fun and less stressful for a backup GK than starting if they can adjust their ego to be OK with it and with not being part of the traveling roster if they are deep backups. 

The hardest situation is not being the 3rd or 4th backup, but being the #2.  That means you're probably good enough to start, but just less experienced or maybe a little deficient in one or more areas from the perspective of the coach.  The #1 and the families of the other GKs may think everything is great, but unless the coach has explained very specifically to the #2 what they need to do or when they expect their time will come, the backup can become very frustrated.  The worst is when the difference between the starter and the backup is a simple deficiency in height or athleticism, because the reality is that this actually doesn't impact the game except in a few instances that coaches often over-emphasize.  For example, a smaller or less "bouncy" GK might be able to get everything in their "bubble," while the tall GK gets beaten on low balls to the bottom corner or spills balls that create dangerous situations where another GK might have held the ball, but some coaches have an intense fear about the top corners and focus on those even if the taller keepers miss them most of the time too. Or they simply think taller GKs are more intimidating or commanding, which is kind of hard to prove or disprove.  The backup GK can't change any of that.  It's why it's so important for the GK to go where he is wanted and for the coach to recruit the GKs they can see themselves playing given their biases.

Very, very good explanation and could not even touch this. In my opinion on all of this below. Hope I can distinguish what makes a successful starting keeper v. a backup.

Many coaches, though have a great understanding of the game, do not know what makes a good or bad or marginal keeper. Why would they, most have only ever been field players and in many cases they have no (or part time) keeper coaches And the part timer come and go frequently and most likely don't contribute much.

Confidence by the coach is important, but also confidence in a keeper by the players. It definitely shows. Saving is only one part of a keeper's game. Important yes, but communication and foot skills today are as important in the game today.  As to foot skills, watch games and see how often a back under pressure is willinging to use the keeper as another back. Is the keeper moving to safe places (not in front of his goal) to received these passes.  Receiving the pass is important, but then distributing it is as a important. Does he pass to open man who is not being pressured (breaking the press)?  If he does this, the backs will absolutely hate you because you just made their jobs crazy hard and will most likely not pass to you again for the rest of or for several games. Is he hitting players on the sidelines so that they run on to the ball or quickly turn and move the ball up field?

As to communication, when a team is playing a very good team, don't look how many times a keeper has to make a circus save, listen for the communication for the keeper (not easy to do online). If you are in the stands and a keeper is on the other end of field, can you hear him?  Is he taking charge of his backline and midfielders, do the backs and midfielders allow him to do this? Is saying very loud - AWAY, KEEPER, [INSERT TEAMMATE'S NAME] RIGHT SHOULDER (this person should not be covering the man with the ball).  Is he making sure that on free kicks, his players are not holding the line closest to the goal but at least at the 18 or even better further up the field. If he is doing this correctly, he may not ever have to make any circus saves. In this case, the keeper is standing out by not standing out stats-wise, because of his excellent communication and trust he's built within the team. 

Coaches often can pick up on this.  Teams run better when a keeper becomes additional type of coach on the field. Also remember, that the coach only has his defense in front of him for half of the game.

Also keepers can demonstrate all these in practice. First thing my son always did trying out with any team whether HS, ODP, ID camps or club was learn the other kids names especially in the back and use his communication to direct the players in front of him even in short field play. In many cases, he didn't know them 2 minutes ago, but just by asking other kids' names who may trying out and nervous makes them feel a part of that drill/practice. He then uses their names.  It benefited him and the players appreciated that someone was looking out for them even during practices. He did have to learn that though when he had to clean up a situation (poor pass or missed trap) he had to temper his anger. I may have said this to him, but may have not - as a keeper your ass is always on the line. If you don't communicate in real time with good information, very few are going to care if a back makes a mistake and they ram a ball down his throat. Why not get ahead like a middle linebacker or even a quarterback stepping up to the line because the down players can't see the other players moving around.

Keepers who are quiet and/or bad with their feet are often not successful keepers in the long run and often end up as a backups in my opinion. Also keepers who don't own their mistakes end up as backups as teammates and coaches will lose confidence in them.

Throughout my son's career, may other parents complimented my son on his communication especially ones who played on multiple teams or came from another team. They would say that the keeper(s) on the other teams never or rarely ever did this. I would joke by asking if their sons' went to bed with my son's voice in their ear. As to his coaches and backs, they played it back to him all game long and he did not distribute the ball to place where his player would be pressured.  Further he often hit players on the sidelines in the midfield and sometimes beyond where they could flip the field quickly. Very few teams even tried to press the team on him because of this.

Last point - son transferred from a D1 program for a lot reasons during Covid. Played 2021 spring practices and then pre season with his new D3 program. Before the season started, son was named by the coach (he was a field player) as one of two captains before son ever played a minute of a game for the program. The other player was a senior who eventually won Player of the Year for the league. Some programs captains don't mean a lot, but the captains on this team were responsible for a lot especially when the coach was not around as far as players who were having issues personally and/or soccer-wise. They had to make decisions.  They were the glue that held the team together while acclimating freshman on to the team. Coach also actively sought captains input on soccer decisions/strategy. Son would give his opinion and coach considered. Senior year he was the only captain. Each year they made it the conference playoff and lost in the second round of the NCAAs.

Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on September 08, 2023, 03:10:48 PM

Quote from: Kuiper on September 08, 2023, 01:05:26 PM

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 08, 2023, 10:43:19 AM

Quote from: College Soccer Observer on September 08, 2023, 09:44:15 AM
As my son is a keeper, thought I would chime in here.  He has started every game since arriving as a freshman.  Each year, there have been at least 3 and sometimes 4 other keepers on the roster.  He came out of games twice his freshman year due to injury.  His freshman year, back up keeper comes in against Conn College in NESCAC quarterfinals after not having played since the second game.  Marco Kaper made an unbelievable save in what was then sudden death OT, and then saved two PKs in the shootout to help his team win.  Without that win, they most likely do not make the NCAA tournament in 2019.  The next week, my son was back in against Amherst in the conference semifinal.  Kaper returned for his super senior year in 2021.  He knew the situation, but loved training with the team and being around the guys.  He played 20 minutes his senior year.  Last year, none of the backups played.  Despite that, the bond between the keepers is close.  The guys (and their parents) are all supportive of each other.  I know that each coach handles things differently.  My son has enjoyed his experience, especially knowing that his coaches have complete confidence in him.  If you are a goalkeeper being recruited, the best advice I can give is to ask about philosophy of who gets a chance to earn the job and to what extent the coach believes in rotating in the other keepers.  The key is to make sure everyone is on the same page regarding the plan.

Seems like most who have chimed in had things work out for themselves or their sons.  What would have you have done if your son had mostly sat for a couple of years?  Would you/he have been willing to wait one year?  Stick it out no matter what?

I can't specifically answer the question @ PaulNewman poses, but one option is to transfer and I can't recall seeing a GK transfer to another D3 school in the hopes of getting playing time, although I'm sure it happens.  It happens all the time in D1, usually because a top school recruits multiple keepers with MLS Academy and USYNT camp experience and the backup keeper's reputation gives them the credibility to attract interest, but my sense is it's much less common in D3.  Part of that may be because it's hard to transfer within D3 given the academic requirements of many small liberal arts colleges.  The reality, however, is that if you haven't much or any college-level film to send to a coach, it would be an unusual situation for that coach to not only recruit you as a transfer but for you to feel confident playing time will get any better.     

The more interesting question is why many backup GKs in D3, who sit on the bench pretty much knowing they will never see the pitch or maybe only see it for a few minutes here and there or in their senior year, stay on the team all four years and don't just quit (although many do).  As College Soccer Observer noted, it's usually because they like training, like the routine the schedule provides, and like the camaraderie of the team.  Here's the reality: In most cases, the backup keepers look decent in practice.  With a few exceptions, they can all make a good save in a shooting drill, they perform pretty well in GK training on all the fundamentals, and they can make the occasional great save in a short-sided game that causes everyone to stop and applaud. Their problem is usually in something more intangible or technical like decision-making, aggressiveness in traffic, command of the box on a cross, 1 v. 1 skills, ability to catch or parry out of trouble rather than push it into danger, ability to use their feet for short, intermediate, and long distribution, or something like that.  You need all of those skills to play 90 as a starter, but you don't need them all to be successful in a lot of training exercises.  So, training can actually be more fun and less stressful for a backup GK than starting if they can adjust their ego to be OK with it and with not being part of the traveling roster if they are deep backups. 

The hardest situation is not being the 3rd or 4th backup, but being the #2.  That means you're probably good enough to start, but just less experienced or maybe a little deficient in one or more areas from the perspective of the coach.  The #1 and the families of the other GKs may think everything is great, but unless the coach has explained very specifically to the #2 what they need to do or when they expect their time will come, the backup can become very frustrated.  The worst is when the difference between the starter and the backup is a simple deficiency in height or athleticism, because the reality is that this actually doesn't impact the game except in a few instances that coaches often over-emphasize.  For example, a smaller or less "bouncy" GK might be able to get everything in their "bubble," while the tall GK gets beaten on low balls to the bottom corner or spills balls that create dangerous situations where another GK might have held the ball, but some coaches have an intense fear about the top corners and focus on those even if the taller keepers miss them most of the time too. Or they simply think taller GKs are more intimidating or commanding, which is kind of hard to prove or disprove.  The backup GK can't change any of that.  It's why it's so important for the GK to go where he is wanted and for the coach to recruit the GKs they can see themselves playing given their biases.

Very, very good explanation and could not even touch this. In my opinion on all of this below. Hope I can distinguish what makes a successful starting keeper v. a backup.

Many coaches, though have a great understanding of the game, do not know what makes a good or bad or marginal keeper. Why would they, most have only ever been field players and in many cases they have no (or part time) keeper coaches And the part timer come and go frequently and most likely don't contribute much.

Confidence by the coach is important, but also confidence in a keeper by the players. It definitely shows. Saving is only one part of a keeper's game. Important yes, but communication and foot skills today are as important in the game today.  As to foot skills, watch games and see how often a back under pressure is willinging to use the keeper as another back. Is the keeper moving to safe places (not in front of his goal) to received these passes.  Receiving the pass is important, but then distributing it is as a important. Does he pass to open man who is not being pressured (breaking the press)?  If he does this, the backs will absolutely hate you because you just made their jobs crazy hard and will most likely not pass to you again for the rest of or for several games. Is he hitting players on the sidelines so that they run on to the ball or quickly turn and move the ball up field?

As to communication, when a team is playing a very good team, don't look how many times a keeper has to make a circus save, listen for the communication for the keeper (not easy to do online). If you are in the stands and a keeper is on the other end of field, can you hear him?  Is he taking charge of his backline and midfielders, do the backs and midfielders allow him to do this? Is saying very loud - AWAY, KEEPER, [INSERT TEAMMATE'S NAME] RIGHT SHOULDER (this person should not be covering the man with the ball).  Is he making sure that on free kicks, his players are not holding the line closest to the goal but at least at the 18 or even better further up the field. If he is doing this correctly, he may not ever have to make any circus saves. In this case, the keeper is standing out by not standing out stats-wise, because of his excellent communication and trust he's built within the team. 

Coaches often can pick up on this.  Teams run better when a keeper becomes additional type of coach on the field. Also remember, that the coach only has his defense in front of him for half of the game.

Also keepers can demonstrate all these in practice. First thing my son always did trying out with any team whether HS, ODP, ID camps or club was learn the other kids names especially in the back and use his communication to direct the players in front of him even in short field play. In many cases, he didn't know them 2 minutes ago, but just by asking other kids' names who may trying out and nervous makes them feel a part of that drill/practice. He then uses their names.  It benefited him and the players appreciated that someone was looking out for them even during practices. He did have to learn that though when he had to clean up a situation (poor pass or missed trap) he had to temper his anger. I may have said this to him, but may have not - as a keeper your ass is always on the line. If you don't communicate in real time with good information, very few are going to care if a back makes a mistake and they ram a ball down his throat. Why not get ahead like a middle linebacker or even a quarterback stepping up to the line because the down players can't see the other players moving around.

Keepers who are quiet and/or bad with their feet are often not successful keepers in the long run and often end up as a backups in my opinion. Also keepers who don't own their mistakes end up as backups as teammates and coaches will lose confidence in them.

Throughout my son's career, may other parents complimented my son on his communication especially ones who played on multiple teams or came from another team. They would say that the keeper(s) on the other teams never or rarely ever did this. I would joke by asking if their sons' went to bed with my son's voice in their ear. As to his coaches and backs, they played it back to him all game long and he did not distribute the ball to place where his player would be pressured.  Further he often hit players on the sidelines in the midfield and sometimes beyond where they could flip the field quickly. Very few teams even tried to press the team on him because of this.

Last point - son transferred from a D1 program for a lot reasons during Covid. Played 2021 spring practices and then pre season with his new D3 program. Before the season started, son was named by the coach (he was a field player) as one of two captains before son ever played a minute of a game for the program. The other player was a senior who eventually won Player of the Year for the league. Some programs captains don't mean a lot, but the captains on this team were responsible for a lot especially when the coach was not around as far as players who were having issues personally and/or soccer-wise. They had to make decisions.  They were the glue that held the team together while acclimating freshman on to the team. Coach also actively sought captains input on soccer decisions/strategy. Son would give his opinion and coach considered. Senior year he was the only captain. Each year they made it the conference playoff and lost in the second round of the NCAAs.

Totally agree on communication and trust.  The latter can be a team/culture problem that a keeper can't always overcome until the players graduate (e.g., cliques), but communication is definitely within the power of the keeper and it can be demonstrated in practice.  I've seen many a new keeper in practice start talking and the other keepers try to do it themselves, but you can't really fake it if you don't know what to say and when to say it.  You have to have a legit feel for the game.

One thing I heard a pro GK coach say in a training session:  "You don't kneed to say it loud enough so your teammates can hear you.  You need to say it loud enough so your coach can hear you."

NESCAC Preview

Overall, I expect another very competitive league, especially at the top, with a handful of NCAA births.  Last year was one of the most competitive from top to bottom with teams like Bates and Colby putting up some impressive results against the top teams.  Ties were abundant as OT was eliminated and the depth of the league made every game a battle, with very few multiple goal advantages.

The league is evolving to be quite a bit more technical as recent up and comers like Conn and Hamilton have instituted possession and ball movement styles which have had success and neutralized some of the athleticism of the traditional powers. 

I expect this season to go back to a more traditional, more top heavy league.  Traditional powers Amherst and Middlebury bring back strong rosters. Tufts, Bowdoin and Conn bring back a lot of key starters but also lost some very high end talent.  Bates, Colby and Williams have been hurt the most by graduation and Hamilton remains the most intriguing team in the league with their maturation.  Trinity could definitely surprise on the upside as they seemed poised for their strongest team in years.

Player of the Year Candidates
Ada Ojorogheye - Amherst
Jordan St. Louis - Middlebury
Fynn Hayton Ruffner – Amherst
Luke Peplowski - Hamilton
Julian Juantorena – Bowdoin
Max Clivio – Tufts
Ryan Grady - Middlebury

Other Top Offensive/Midfield Players
Pandelis Margaronis – Hamilton
Luke Peplowski - Hamilton
Tife Agunloye – Bates
Matt Scoffone – Conn
Jake Creus – Conn
Rye Jaron – Conn
Gavin Vanden Berg - Conn
Ignacio Cubbedu – Amherst
Sean Traynor – Tufts
Daniel Yanez – Tufts
Woovin Shin - Tufts
Mario Simoes – Colby
Tyler Huck – Bowdoin
Ronaldo Cabral – Bowdoin
Felipe Rueda Duran – Bowdoin
Adam Hadzic- Middlebury
Eujin Chae – Middlebury
Michael Traynor – Trinity
James Donaldson - Trinity
Kyle Burbage - Wesleyan
Lucas Ruelemann - Wesleyan

Other top defenders
Eamon Gara Grady – Williams
Sebastian Ghosh – Hamilton
Jack Kelesoglu – Conn
Alessandro Horvath Diano – Conn
Luke Madden – Middlebury
Matt Moran – Trinity
Ben Clark Eden - Amherst
Laurens Ten Cate – Amherst
Simon Kalinauskas - Amherst
Evan O Brien – Wesleyan

Other top GKs
Ben Diffey – Williams
Peter Silvester – Conn
Brendan McCarthy – Colby

Top Newcomers
Mohammed Nuhu - MF/F– Amherst
Xavier Canfin – F - Tufts
Chalie Miles – D – Conn
Alex Ainsworth – GK – Bowdoin
Zach Feldman – D - Wesleyan

NESCAC Preview

Middlebury

It does not seem like a big statement to say that Mid is loaded with many, many contributing players returning.  The only question that I have is whether they can rebound from the end of the year swoon which saw them go 1-4-1 in their last 6 games including a first round upset to Rowan in the NCAA tournament.  After a 6 goal second half explosion against Trinity, they managed to score in only 3 of the last 6 games.  This year's opening thrashing of Mt. Saint Marys and a 4-0 scrimmage victory over Williams is very encouraging for a bounce back.

Key losses - No team except Amherst brings back more but the loss of 4 year starter and 3 time All NESCAC center back, Mark Mc Farlane cannot be over looked.

Key returners - Where do I start? That's easy - 4 year starter and multi time all league keeper Ryan Grady locks down a solid D with former d1 player Luke Madden, who will also step into a leadership role.  There is a ton of returning production up front led by player of the year candidate Jordan St. Louis, solid finishers in Alex Muris, Alem Hadzic and one of the best play makers in the league Eujin Chae.  No player in the league is better at initiating the O and using the outside talent of St Louis than Chae.

Outlook - They will no doubt contend for the league top and have the most favorable schedule by getting to host Tufts and Amherst.  The pressure will be on this year to make up for last years disappointment and they will surprise no one after being a top the league and the country for most of the year last year.  A lot of senior leadership will want to finally get it done in their last season.  They play a nice style of using their athleticism and toughness to dominate but still can technically break down a team by using its skill on the outside to unbalance the defense.

Amherst

Like Middlebury, they are loaded with returning players with very few departures.  In addition, many are very high on the technical abilities of their recruiting class.  With an incredible string of sweet 16 appearances, I would not expect anything else besides a top 3 NESCAC finish and a solid run in the tournament.

Key losses - They will need to replace Bernie White in the net as well as multi year starters and contributors in Nico Kenary, Alex Shahmirzadi, a true playmaker, as well as underclassman Aidan Curtis who scored 8 goals in limited minutes.  Curtis is on an academic sabbatical.

Key returners - Like Mid, they are loaded with returners in almost every phase.  Defenders like Laurens Ten Cate, Simon Kalinauskas, and Ben Clark-Eden will protect any new GK with their physical prowess.  Returning former star Ignacio Cubeddu will be the maestro in the middle and get the ball to returning forwards Ada Okorogheye and Finn Hayton Ruffner.  My projection for NESCAC player of the year is Ada Okorogheye who really blossomed during their tournament run. Also, word out of central Massachussetts, is newcomer Mohammad Muhu could be a game changer with his skill set.  The smallish speedy player is not your typical Amherst player and will bring something different to their attacking third.

Outlook - While they have a slightly tougher schedule with road trips to Mid, Tufts, and Conn, teams that will benefit greatly from getting off the small, high grass pitch in Amherst.  One thing is certain, Amherst will try to bludgeon teams and use their size and strength to intimidate. They have been in the top 2 in the league in both fouls and yellow cards for the last 10 straight years and remarkably had 5 players with at least 5 yellow cards.  Only one other league player matched this level.  This lack of discipline really cost them as they took a red card late in their NCAA tournament loss when they could have had a man advantage for OT.

Tufts

While they have lost more than Mid and Amherst, Tufts is also in reload mode.  A number of younger players got considerable experience in 2022 and if they can get more production from a year older and wiser front 4, this Tufts team will compete will anyone.  First game is a good sign as all 4 front starters notched at least two points.

Key losses- In addition to 2 year starting GK Eric Lauta who transferred to D1, Tufts loses 2 time national champ and 4 year starter Ian Daly who was a tremendous 2 way player.

Key returners.  The D looks solid with returning center backs Alex Wall and 2 year starter Max Clivio and numerous players who saw time on the back line.  The midfield looks solid with emerging star Danny Yanez highlighting an experienced group.  It will be the returning playmakers on the outside Sean Traynor and Ethan Feigin who will need to step up the production as well as finding a #9 where the production was inadequate last year.

Outlook -   Can Tufts get back to their national dominance when they could both possess as well as overwhelm you with speed and strength? While still relatively young but older and wiser than in 2022 when there were 7 new starters, they have a lot of playoff experience among the seniors.  Without a dominant #9 they will need to build through the midfield and get the ball out to their wave of crafty wingers like in years past.

Connecticut College

You could argue only Bowdoin rivals Conn College in terms of what a top team lost from 2022.  Something was just not right last year as the team struggled being "the hunted" with high expectations.  How do they respond this season?  The early results are very promising as they have found the net frequently as their heavy possession style can really frustrate teams early who are overly aggressive.  No one moves the ball better horizontally and uses the width better than Conn.  They know they cannot attack the strong CBs in the league so they attack the width.

Key losses - Two huge losses in 4 year starters, multi time all NESCAC players in Steve Yeonas and Augie Djerdjaj.  These two could do it all, and they did. 21 combined goals over the last two years. In addition, defensive stalwart and 2 year starter Roman Dutkewych will be missed.

Key returners -  While the big names are gone, Conn still brings back a number of multi year contributors and will take their possession game up a notch with their technical depth.  Jake Creus, Rye Jaran (who missed 2022 with an injury), Matt Scoffone and Gavin Vanden Berg are proven producers with a lot of big game experience.  GK Peter Silvester, a PK saving star for the national championship team, returns after a solid 2022 campaign and Jack Kelesoglu and Alessandro Horvath Diana return as big time defensive contributors although Diano may move up the field.

Outlook -  They bring a very unique and refreshing style to a league known for its physicality.  They have experience but will need to see new leaders emerge across the pitch.  They have the most favorable schedule of the top teams, hosting Mid, Amherst and Tufts.  Putting the ball in the net is the hardest part of NESCAC soccer and they have proven scorers, so I like their chances.

Hamilton

After starting off last NESCAC season with 4 wins and a tie including upsets of Tufts Conn and Middlebury, Hamilton lost its way, going 0-3-3 and did not reach the NCAA tournament.  It was quite a downfall.  The season started off with a whimper as they drew SUNY Oswego in the opening week.  Which Hamilton team will we see?  Was scouting a part of the turnaround for other teams?  Or a key injury? I think this team is very promising as they return all their key personnel.

Key losses - None

Key returners - You can literally name the entire squad as key returners as many young players saw considerable time and gained valuable experience.  The headliners are definitely their midfielders Luke Peplowski, Luke Ehrenfruend and Pandelis.  They have the makings of the top midfield in the league with their possession as well as ability to score. Charles Hawthorne brings some finishing and athleticism to the #9 spot.  One of the merging superstars in the league is cool-as-a-cucumber center back, Sebastian Ghosh, whose late season injury could have been the catalyst to their demise. He does not fit the typical mold of a NESCAC center back at a slim 6 feet but he can initiate the build up through the middle that they like.

Outlook - If any of the non traditional powerhouses can break into the top tier, it's Hamilton.  A year older and a year stronger and wiser is really important in the NESCAC where traditionally upper classman and experience have ruled.  Last year was promising and the early season dud may be just a blip.  I like their chances to break into the top 4 and host a NESCAC tournament home game where no one wants to make that drive west.

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Bowdoin

Similar to Conn, they lose some very high end talent especially on D, which was their calling card last season as they only lost 2 games despite scoring only 2.2 goals per game.  They were lock down on D. They do not have a strong out of conference schedule so they will need to produce in the league to get a bid for the second straight year.  This feels like a team in transition from a defensive stalwart to a team with good young attacking players.

Key losses -  They lost maybe the top two players in the league last season in GK  Michael Weber, who graduated with a 0.63 goals against average and Dylan Reid, a star center back, NESCAC player of the year and 4 year starter.  In addition, the 2 of the top 3 scorers in Harry Cooper and Charlie Ward are gone.

Key Returners - All Everything midfielder Julian Juantorena will be a NESCAC player of the year candidate and will be joined in the returning midfield by Charlton Steinberg. Jack Selig and Ben Brown return to the D which will need to step up in Reid's absence.  The most promising part of Bowdoin's team is their young attacking stars Tyler Huck and Felipe Rueda Duran (4 goals in the opener) who join top scorer Ronaldo Cabral to form some offensive fire power up in Brunswick.

Outlook -  As I mentioned, this team could transition into a more offensive oriented squad with its talent base but the name of the game in NESCAC soccer is defense.  Can they reload after losing such stalwarts?  The disappointment of losing in the final 8 after Reid went down has to sting.  Will that be motivation?  They also are planning on playing a couple home games on turf.  Maybe that is a recognition that they boys are ready to get numbers forward.



Wesleyan

Like Hamilton, they started off strong last season but could not finish strong and did not receive an NCAA bid despite a top 10 ranking at one point.  This season looks like a rough one.  Along with Williams, Bates and Colby, this team has lost many key players so they will need to find some contributors from last years bench and the new comers

Key losses - They lost key players all over the field but nowhere more acutely than the crafty midfield trio of Oliver Clark, Phillip Cubbeddu, one of the leagues top playmakers, and Mathew Rubenstein who initiated their offense very nicely last year.  There will be a new GK as 3 year starter Liam Devanny has moved on.

Key returners - No doubt, in typical NESCAC fashion, a strong CB Evan O'Brien is the heart and soul of this team and will likely be paired up with freshman Zach Feldman who has looked good in preseason.  Up front, leading scorers, Kyle Burbage and Lucas Ruehlemann return and look to build on productive seasons a year ago if they can get the midfield right.

Outlook -Wesleyan could definitely be a wildcard as they replace some key contributors and try to build off an improvement in 2022.  They lack the size and athleticism of some of the top end teams and will need to build on their success from 2022 by maintaining the ball.

Williams

Could Williams be this seasons version of Conn and struggle being the "hunted"?  Couple this scenario with the fact that they lost a ton of excellent players and saw a couple transfers and several quitters.  For a team coming off a national championship runner up, things do not seem right in Williamstown and the early scrimmage results support a concern.

Key losses -  While Jayden Reid won NESCAC player of the year, the player who had the finest overall season was Nick Boardman who carried his squad through game after game in the playoffs.  Another key loss will be super athletic, all everything, Will Fellito whose career ended prematurely in 2022 with injury. Another key loss is Nathan Song a skilled playmaker in the middle and Cole Mariello, an athletic outside player with a long dangerous throw.

Key returners - As last season, the key to Williams success will be a stout defense with returning GK Ben Diffey and star CB Eamon Gara Grady.  To bolster the scoring they will need more from Sam Gibson,  Henry Kirkman, and Dan Rayhill who have all shown signs.

Outlook -  This season could be an interesting one.  I predict they will rival the 11 ties they achieved in 2022 as the defense again looks solid but the offense is unproven and the set piece dominance from Fellito and Boardman are gone. Last year they may not have even made the NCAA tournament if not for an 89th minute questionable PK call they got in the NESCAC quarterfinals. They turned that good fortune into a magical season.

Trinity

Is this the year they can break into the NESCAC win column and even challenge for a NESCAC tournament slot?  I think the answer is yes as the bottom of the league looks weaker than 2022 and they return almost all of their contributors.  Breaking into the win column will not be easy but they did play the middle of the league and the bottom of the league tough last year.

Key losses - The only full time starter that left was 2 year starter Gabe Mangiafico

Key returners -  The core of this team, although winless in the NESCAC, has a lot of experience.  4 year starter Matt Moran is a top level NESCAC center back as is playmaker James Donaldson.  The D is bolstered by 2 year starter Dante Merlin and 2 year starting GK Bernardo Simones who often kept them in close games.  Michael Traynor is the most dangerous outside player.  The return of Quinn Ackmann in the midfield from a 2022 injury should solidify the middle.

Outlook - It's make or break year for Trinity as their top players are either seniors or Grad students. While they played some teams tough last year, they did not generate enough offense, particularly from the #9 slot where they could not even register shots let alone goals.  Their opening game win this week matched their entire season total from 2022.  Last year a new coaching staff used far too many players and played a more direct and pressing style which does not match their overall athletic disadvantage to most teams.  A team which is a year older, stronger and wiser should challenge the bottom league teams as the coach appears now to know who and what his strong group can be.

Bates

Bates saw improvement in 2022 despite a new coach and nearly made the NESCAC tournament with an end of season win versus Colby. I think 2023 will be tough to continue to make progress as they lose several key players.

Key losses - The defense stalwarts, Max McKersie and Alex Kodak, multiple year starters are gone.  In addition, key playmakers Iwowa, an athletic force, and Ciaran Bardong have also moved on.  On a team that has struggled to score, the loss of athletic and proven scorer Alex Szwarewicz will also be very difficult to replace.

Key returners -  With the loss of so many leaders and playmakers, a lot of responsibility will be on Tife Agunloye, a gifted 1v1 player and proven finisher.  The defense will rely on returning starter Seba Niehenke and some unproven faces in front of a rookie GK.  Midfield is better positioned with returning starters David Ortiz and Sebastian Iacovetti who will do their best to get it wide to Tife.

Outlook - I see Bates struggling and their opening game loss to Emerson is concerning.  A lot of veteran faces need to be replaced, especially on D and striker which is always tough in a very defensive minded league.  Tife will need to explode along with some new faces for them to improve on their 9th position.

Colby

Colby had a very similar year to Bates as they rode a lot of experienced players to a very competitive position and rivaled Williams by achieving 5 conference ties including Amherst and Tufts and a victory over Conn.  However, graduation and transfers have devastated this squad and this season looks to be a challenge.

Key losses - Up top, Colby had a dynamic duo of Ethan Franco, a top  v1 player and Ethan Fabricant, a strong, classic #9 with size and speed to battle the NESCAC best center backs,  whose goal production and creativity will be sorely missed. At midfield, Colin Sullivan and Nicholas Lemaire's work rate and playmaking will be missed. On Defense, Jared Wood and Aboubacar Traore were both multi year starters whose physical presence will be missed.

Key returners -  The list is a little sparse but veteran GK Brendan McCarthy returns along with defenders Alex Moretti and Ryan Stewart bringing some experience on the outside.  In preseason camp, Mario Simões has been a force and will be expected to fill the large shoes up front.

Outlook -  I see this young and inexperienced squad struggling with the upper echelon teams in the conference who seemed to have much stronger returning squads.  Ethan Franco and Ethan Fabricant could be game changers and their production will need to be replaced although Simões has that game changing speed and technical ability if they can get him the ball in dangerous places, particularly wide.

Halftime Washington & Lee 2, Sewanee 0

Oglethorpe appears to be having their way with Roanoke, 2-0 at half.  Someone mentioned several D1 transfers.  I did a little research and one was a freshman at USC Upstate in 2016. Another was a freshman at Mercer in 2016.  How does D3 eligibility work?

Pretty impressive win by Cal Lutheran over Whitworth 3-0.  Cal Lu played down a man for 88 minutes after its starting GK was hit with a red card in the 2nd minute.  Not only did Cal Lu score in the first half, but it piled on two more in the second half.  The extra space on the field appeared to help Cal Lu and hurt Whitworth.  Of course, the college sub rules help in these situations and Cal Lu gave meaningful minutes to 9 subs.

Of note:  Freshman Max Schelloto (son of the Paraguay NT coach and former Galaxy coach/former player for the Argentina NT and Boca Juniors) got his first collegiate goal.

Of further note and relevant to the earlier conversation about GK playing time - Cal Lu brought in 5'7" Junior GK Gen Katashiba to replace the starter when he was ejected.  This was Katashiba's first action of his college career and he made two saves over 88 minutes to keep the clean sheet.  You never know when your number will be called!

Quick question...

What is the attitude on these boards on current players contributing? I've been lurking on this site since my freshman season in 2021, and it's become something I check on a daily basis (both for fun and to stay informed on the national D3 soccer landscape). I've thought about posting a few times, but never really knew when to jump in, and I wasn't ever sure if active players are generally accepted as posters on here. If for whatever reason it's frowned upon or problematic, I'll gladly go back to being a silent reader of the boards, just felt like the start of a new season was a good time to ask. Is there precedent for it? Are some of the common contributors active players and I'm just not aware?

Also, didn't know which board to throw this on or whether to start a new subject (not sure of the proper board etiquette) so I figured the national board was as good a place as any. I know it can get annoying when the boards get too off-topic, so I apologize if I've done just that.

In any case, I am happy to have finally hit the 'post' button after a couple of years of considering it. :)

Washington and Lee 3, Sewanee 1, final.

My two cents is everyone is encouraged to post!

Quote from: Cartobo29 on September 08, 2023, 08:45:19 PM
Quick question...

What is the attitude on these boards on current players contributing? I've been lurking on this site since my freshman season in 2021, and it's become something I check on a daily basis (both for fun and to stay informed on the national D3 soccer landscape). I've thought about posting a few times, but never really knew when to jump in, and I wasn't ever sure if active players are generally accepted as posters on here. If for whatever reason it's frowned upon or problematic, I'll gladly go back to being a silent reader of the boards, just felt like the start of a new season was a good time to ask. Is there precedent for it? Are some of the common contributors active players and I'm just not aware?

Also, didn't know which board to throw this on or whether to start a new subject (not sure of the proper board etiquette) so I figured the national board was as good a place as any. I know it can get annoying when the boards get too off-topic, so I apologize if I've done just that.

In any case, I am happy to have finally hit the 'post' button after a couple of years of considering it. :)

Welcome to the board!  Old-timers would know better whether there is any precedent for this (and it's possible some posters are current players and we just don't know it).  There do seem to be some recent alums who pop up from time to time.  I would suggest that the bigger question is whether your coach would approve.  That might depend upon what you post and whether you could do so without revealing your identity.  You probably wouldn't want to reveal any team secrets (including player injury info) or provide any bulletin board material for your opponents just in case your cover is blown.  Beyond that, though I'm sure you have general insights that would be quite useful for parents who are asking about recruiting and you could make welcome contributions on a number of topics that are discussed from time-to-time on these boards, such as your views on rule changes, how players manage the demands of travel and fixture congestion, attitudes toward spring practices and sitting on the bench etc. 

What he said...just don't let it create a problem for you with your team/program.

Wil be very curious to get some detailed color on the OWU 2-1 win over St Olaf.  Guerra scored a nice one around the 84th minute.  St Olaf is good and tough...went down 1-0 inside of 2 minutes which is always brutal...and then played with 10 men for 65 minutes.

Kenyon eeks out a 1-0 win over Hanover which the Panthers easily could have taken by the same score.  The Owls had far more of the ball and won the stats but Hanover had its opportunities.  No matter....desperately needed win for Kenyon.

Random stuff....I missed that Emerson beat Bates a couple of days ago...good win for a team that lost its coach.  Bates loses to Bowdoin tonight 1-0.

Emory gets by Pac Lutheran 2-1 in the PNW.

Babson just leveled with Montclair 1-1 under 10 left.

Calvin nips ONU in what the stats suggest was a very even game.  Calvin just knows how to win.

Oh boy....Montclair scores at 88:44.  2-1.

Lots of intra-regional action in Region X tonight with Socal (SCIAC) teams taking on Northwest Conference teams and SCAC teams taking on ASC teams, plus a few inter-regional games as well. 

Short summary:

SCIAC is way UP
SCAC is way UP
NWC is way DOWN
ASC is way DOWN

Claremont-Mudd-Scripps (SCIAC) out-classed Willamette (NWC) in Salem for a 3-0 victory.  CMS looked a lot better than against UC Santa Cruz (where they won 2-1), scoring on some nice one-touch combination play through the middle of the Bearcat defense.  Speaking of the middle, Willamette's midfield is a problem. They can't seem to play through the midfield and they can't stop the other team from playing through the midfield.  And starting out the season 0-3 effectively rules them out of an NCAA bid other than through the AQ.  They only have one more non-conference game against Emory and it will be exclusively conference play here on out.  And given the other conference results in non-conference games, those games aren't going to exactly help their strength of schedule.

Emory (UAA) came from behind to beat Pacific Lutheran (NWC) 2-1.  Pac Lu didn't play badly, but they have Claremont-Mudd-Scripps coming up on Sunday and they'll need that to get another quality win.  Right now, they are 1-1-1 and Colorado College might be their only quality win of the season the way the NWC is looking.

Southwestern (SCAC) beat Whitman (NWC) 2-1, scoring the winning goal in the 88th minute.  The game was otherwise fairly even, with both teams scoring within 10 minutes of each other early in the first half and then trading shots the rest of the way.  Southwestern has now beaten both Willamette and Whitman from the NWC.

Whittier (SCIAC) beat George Fox (NWC) 2-0 on two goals in the latter part of the second half.

Redlands (SCIAC) crushed Life Pacific (USCAA) 9-0.  Gabriel Martinez had a hat trick and Phillip Kostenko had a brace for Redlands.  Cal Tech beat Life Pacific 5-1 earlier this week, so this is a team that is a punching bag for the SCIAC in its first year of operation.  For some reason, Life Pacific has an exhibition match scheduled for 9/18 against D1 San Diego State.  That will be a blood bath even if SDSU plays only its deep bench players.

La Verne (SCIAC) beat Linfield (NWC) 3-0.  Adan Villarreal had a brace.  The junior college transfer already has 6 goals in 3 games (143 minutes) on the season.  Perhaps even more impressive, he has 6 goals on 11 shots.  He is a clinical finisher.  If he keeps up a 2.00 goals/game average this year, he's going to shatter some records.  He's already putting the SCIAC on notice that they're going to have to game plan for him.

UC Santa Cruz (C2C) beat Pacific OR (NWC) 2-0.  UCSC controlled the game and probably should have won by more.

Austin (SCAC) beat Ozarks (ASC) 1-0.  Austin is 3-0 on the season and has beaten three straight ASC foes (including East Texas Baptist and LeTourneau). Ozarks has the best record in the ASC, having beaten Centenary LA of the SCAC and they are 2-1.

St. Thomas TX (SCAC) beat Concordia TX (ASC) 3-1.  St. Thomas continues their top form.  Taty Aleman had 2 goals and 1 assist, to give him 5 goals and 1 assist in 3 games on 14 shots.

Texas Lutheran (SCAC) beat Mary Hardin-Baylor (ASC) 2-0.  Texas Lu continues its hot start after beating Occidental and Cal Lu on its LA trip.  It's now beaten the preseason coaches poll favorites in both the SCIAC and the ASC.

Trinity TX (SCAC) beat UT Dallas (ASC) 4-1 to join St. Thomas and Texas Lu atop the SCAC with perfect 3-0 records.

Schreiner (SCAC) beat Howard Payne (ASC) 2-1

A few results that caught my eye....

PS-Abington 2 Rutgers-Newark 0.........like really?

UMass Boston 4 MIT 0.....the Beacons might be a problem...odd game with MIT dominating stats but losing by 4

Union 1 New Paltz 1....Union starting to feel a little different...and host UMass Boston next

St Joseph's (ME) 1 JWU 0....big regional win for the Monks

Chicago 4 UWEC 1...didn't watch but noticed this one was 2-1 pretty deep into the match

CWRU 1 Capital 0....CWRU quietly 4-0...and goes crosstown to visit JCU

Ohio Northern 1 Colorado College 1...so the Polar Bears have cooled a touch

Trinity (CT) 0 Hamilton 0....not the start the Continentals have been dreaming about for 8-9 months

Scranton 0 Kean 0....Scranton stuck its neck out to see the view and check whether they wanted attention...and the Royals are not so sure

Skidmore 0 WPI 0....like, yeah, what did you expect?

Wabash 0 Berry 0....ditto

Btw, no recent mentions of Messiah, including by myself...and to be clear that's 95% because Messiah doesn't need anyone to be talking about them.  Rest assured we'll be talking about the Falcons plenty soon enough.

I've watched most of the past 2 Messiah games and they don't seem to be firing on all cylinders offensively yet (odd thing to say about a team who has scored 14 goals in the first 4 games but Messiah is held to a different standard).  Macdonald only 1 goal and 1 assist through the first 4 games.  A bright spot is freshman Sam Phillips who has 4 goals.  Also, All-American Lent-Koop is injured to start the season and has yet to feature.  The Mary Washington game on the 23rd will be a big one

I didn't see a mention of this yet but what is going on with NYU (1-3)?  Lost 4-1 to TCNJ who were winless heading into today

A few interesting (and a few expected) results involving WEST and NORTH teams

Occidental beat Lewis & Clark 5-0.  No surprise against the second year L&C team that is still winless.

Chapman beat NAIA side Bethesda 2-1.  The only mild surprise here against the 0-4 Bethesda team is that it was this close.  Redlands beat them 4-1.

Cal Tech tied NAIA side Hope International 1-1.  Cal Tech's goal was scored on a well-placed curving free kick just outside the box by Ishaan Mantripragada (I had to look up the spelling - and may still have gotten it wrong!).  This extends Cal Tech's unbeaten streak to 4 games, which may be an all-time high.  More interesting is that Hope International, unlike Bethesda or Life Pacific, some other NAIA teams SCIAC teams have faced, is pretty good.  They were 5-1 entering the game and had just beaten Chapman 1-0 two days ago.  So, for Cal Tech to tie them is a pretty good measuring stick for them.  While the Beavers have been beating up on pretty weak teams thus far, this was a legit opponent.

Colorado College completed their Ohio roads swing with a 1-1 tie at Ohio Northern.  That's a big result for Colorado College, which had lost to Pacific Lutheran in the first game of the season and needed something from this game to establish some measure of credibility outside of Region X.

Loras ties Saint John's University 1-1.  Loras has been beating up weaker teams and just tied Gustavus Adolphus 1-1.  Saint John's won three straight after losing to SCIAC team La Verne 4-2 to open the season.  Maybe Saint John's is better than we thought?

Ohio Northern has a heck of an interesting week ahead. On Wednesday the Polar Bears are at Ohio Wesleyan. Then they'll turn around and get right back on the bus as they travel to Chicagoland next weekend to take on North Central in Naperville on Friday and North Park in the Windy City on Saturday.

Quote from: paclassic89 on September 10, 2023, 12:55:24 AM
I've watched most of the past 2 Messiah games and they don't seem to be firing on all cylinders offensively yet (odd thing to say about a team who has scored 14 goals in the first 4 games but Messiah is held to a different standard).  Macdonald only 1 goal and 1 assist through the first 4 games.  A bright spot is freshman Sam Phillips who has 4 goals.  Also, All-American Lent-Koop is injured to start the season and has yet to feature.  The Mary Washington game on the 23rd will be a big one

I didn't see a mention of this yet but what is going on with NYU (1-3)?  Lost 4-1 to TCNJ who were winless heading into today

I've seen 3 of the 4 Falcon games in person. Nothing is wrong in Grantham, except the loss of Lent-Koop, probably the best CB returning from last year's incredibly talented group of top CBs around D3. His absence, thus far, is mainly on the offensive end. Defensively the Falcons have been top notch, but they haven't really been tested yet. Lent-Koop is dominant in the air on both ends. There are certainly other Falcons who can bury headers (McDonald's goal was a header), but he's the best they've had on set plays in many years as his scoring last year showed. McDonald's playing at the same level he was last fall; it's just that he gets a lot of attention and his hard shots on goal (many so far) have been blocked or saved. And, with back-to-back games in back-to-back weekends, he's played quite limited minutes like everyone else. Other than the keeper, not one starter finished the first half last night. McD was almost solely responsible for Phillips' second goal, when he did his usual thing: he used his speed and inner drive to outhustle the defense to a ball in the box against the run of play, and even though he could have shot it himself under pressure, he made the short pass to a wide-open teammate. So far this season, that's his one assist. However last night he could have had 1 or 2 more assists, off perfect balls across the goal that weren't finished. Another play this weekend was a brilliant long pass from in front of the visitor's bench halfway down the field to a winger at full speed, whose defender did well to fend off an open shot. That could have been another assist. McD's background as a defender came into play there. As a striker, he wanders all over the field and often drops briefly back into spaces where he looks and plays like a DMF. In short, he gets lost, and takes advantage of that.

As for the FR Phillips, who scored 35 goals as a HS senior, evidence suggests that he's even faster than McD (there's a video showing him being timed at 11.0 for 100 meters at a track meet). Certainly he has a nose for the goal. His second score last night was a gimme (though he gets credit for making it), but the other 3 haven't been cheap. His first last night was just brilliant.

See, it's like the bat signal.  Just need to post something that is even the slightest bit critical of Messiah and the Falcons posters will come out of the woodwork to let everyone know they are playing like Pep's Barcelona  ;D

Univ. of Mary Washington, not new recently obviously, but people may want to track this team.  They are continuing and building on their success from last year.  People may be talking about this team, but I don't remember recently.

Currently up 5-0 over Lycoming and have scored 15 goals over 4 games (4-0 over Hopkins) and look really strong.

Game to put high, high on the watch calendar Sept. 23rd against Messiah at Messiah.

W&L 0-0 at halftime. I am pretty disappointed in how they are playing.

Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on September 10, 2023, 03:46:38 PM
Univ. of Mary Washington, not new recently obviously, but people may want to track this team.  They are continuing and building on their success from last year.  People may be talking about this team, but I don't remember recently.

Currently up 5-0 over Lycoming and have scored 15 goals over 4 games (4-0 over Hopkins) and look really strong.

Game to put high, high on the watch calendar Sept. 23rd against Messiah at Messiah.

Absolutely concur...any ideas about a flash in the pan are done.  Top 5 team, maybe top 3, and a legitimate contender for Final Four again if key guys stay healthy.

Quote from: Another Mom on September 10, 2023, 03:57:56 PM
W&L 0-0 at halftime. I am pretty disappointed in how they are playing.

Well, they picked it up with 2 goals, but as you saw gave up one.  Should be a good 30 min or so.

Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on September 10, 2023, 04:23:36 PM

Quote from: Another Mom on September 10, 2023, 03:57:56 PM
W&L 0-0 at halftime. I am pretty disappointed in how they are playing.

Well, they picked it up with 2 goals, but as you saw gave up one.  Should be a good 30 min or so.

Oops 2-2, oh well.

And it ends 3-3. I thought Otterbein was the better team. Disappointed in the lack of W&L possession and pressure. Though glad there were a variety of players who scored.

Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on September 10, 2023, 04:27:25 PM

Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on September 10, 2023, 04:23:36 PM

Quote from: Another Mom on September 10, 2023, 03:57:56 PM
W&L 0-0 at halftime. I am pretty disappointed in how they are playing.

Well, they picked it up with 2 goals, but as you saw gave up one.  Should be a good 30 min or so.

Oops 2-2, oh well.

Well at least it was not a loss which it clearly could have been.  Up 3-2 off of an amazing goal from the outside to giving up a tough one. Otterbein had a few more chances to score.  Can't remember the last time W&L was up 2-0 and not win.  Just part of the journey and a lot of soccer to play.  Didn't think over 5 games they would only have 1 win.

I haven't watched a lot of W&L yet, but they are very similar to Kenyon I think....as both lost a handful (or more) of 3-4 year starters half of whom were AAs and POYs in their conferences.  Both will get better, but I doubt this is a year either make deep runs.  And the opponents have aspirations too.  Otterbein is a legitimate program and will challenge JCU and ONU.

Wow.  North Central crushed Rose Hulman 5-0.  I considered that a sleeper upset special.  Another team proving to be no fluke although the overall schedule has been soft thus far.  GAC is another.

Don't look now but Willamette is 0-4 as Emory moves to 2-0-2. 

Rowan spots Haverford a 2 goal lead to draw 2-2.  Box score says 81 persons attended.  How in the world does someone come up with a number like that?

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 10, 2023, 05:18:31 PM
Wow.  North Central crushed Rose Hulman 5-0.  I considered that a sleeper upset special.  Another team proving to be no fluke although the overall schedule has been soft thus far.  GAC is another.

Don't look now but Willamette is 0-4 as Emory moves to 2-0-2. 

Rowan spots Haverford a 2 goal lead to draw 2-2.  Box score says 81 persons attended.  How in the world does someone come up with a number like that?

Carefully

Paid attendance,went to a game there last year ,you pay to attend.

Quote from: camosfan on September 10, 2023, 08:31:52 PM
Paid attendance,went to a game there last year ,you pay to attend.

I don't know if Haverford charges for attendance, but there are attendance numbers like that throughout D3 for games that are definitely not ticketed.  Pomona-Pitzer beat Linfield College today 3-2 and the box score lists attendance of 126.  Below is a link to a clip from the game (you have to sit through a 30 sec ad to get the clip).  Most fans just are on the hill scattered behind the goal, although there are probably some on the small stands behind the benches and scattered in other places around the field.  You just park on the street and walk onto the field.  Either someone counts everyone or they make it up.

https://youtu.be/xjOvgzMI_Xo

Quote from: Kuiper on September 10, 2023, 09:11:46 PM

Quote from: camosfan on September 10, 2023, 08:31:52 PM
Paid attendance,went to a game there last year ,you pay to attend.

I don't know if Haverford charges for attendance, but there are attendance numbers like that throughout D3 for games that are definitely not ticketed.  Pomona-Pitzer beat Linfield College today 3-2 and the box score lists attendance of 126.  Below is a link to a clip from the game (you have to sit through a 30 sec ad to get the clip).  Most fans just are on the hill scattered behind the goal, although there are probably some on the small stands behind the benches and scattered in other places around the field.  You just park on the street and walk onto the field.  Either someone counts everyone or they make it up.

https://youtu.be/xjOvgzMI_Xo

Thank you.  I know I've been to a bunch of D3 games where you didn't pay if not a NCAA tourney game.  And even then when I've paid for the latter, I'm not sure anyone was counting.

A quick check revealed Kenyon having 208 today, Berry had 84 vs Wabash, ONU had 152 for Calvin, and then there are the even number ones where seems like maybe someone makes an approximation....Fitchburg said 50 for UMass-B game, Oneonta says 200 today, and Willamette cites 200 for Emory.

When I hyped UMass-Boston like maybe yesterday I didn't realize they lost to Fitchburg St 3-2 with Fitchburg junior transfer from Bridgewater State University Elijah Kalombo enjoying a hat trick.  Fitchburg was 1-14-1 last year.  UMass-Boston did best Union in Schenectady today 3-2.

Over/under on the next Fitchburg mention on the site?

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 08, 2023, 09:24:49 PM
Wil be very curious to get some detailed color on the OWU 2-1 win over St Olaf.  Guerra scored a nice one around the 84th minute.  St Olaf is good and tough...went down 1-0 inside of 2 minutes which is always brutal...and then played with 10 men for 65 minutes.

Kenyon eeks out a 1-0 win over Hanover which the Panthers easily could have taken by the same score.  The Owls had far more of the ball and won the stats but Hanover had its opportunities.  No matter....desperately needed win for Kenyon.

Random stuff....I missed that Emerson beat Bates a couple of days ago...good win for a team that lost its coach.  Bates loses to Bowdoin tonight 1-0.

Emory gets by Pac Lutheran 2-1 in the PNW.

Babson just leveled with Montclair 1-1 under 10 left.

Calvin nips ONU in what the stats suggest was a very even game.  Calvin just knows how to win.

Ohio Wesleyan struck early on a well executed counter attack and seemed to continue that pressure until the red card. Subsequently St. Olaf's level increased after going down to 10 men, eventually leading to a well placed free kick goal to tie the game. Playing somewhat of a 3-3-3, the Ole's continued to put the pressure on OWU thanks to individual moments from #8 and #10. Against the run of play, the full strength Bishop's finished off another cross and finish, this time Guerra on the receiving end after assisting the first. Big win for the Bishops after a tough opening weekend in Michigan.

^^^^Thanks, welcome, and great screen name.

Have not see the official attendance, but Messiah had at least 1600+ at the game Friday night.

Quote from: Fitz@615 on September 10, 2023, 10:37:07 PM
Have not see the official attendance, but Messiah had at least 1600+ at the game Friday night.

According to the box score, attendance Friday was 1,653.

https://gomessiah.com/sports/mens-soccer/stats/2023/suny-brockport/boxscore/10973

On Saturday night, however, attendance was "only" 977 (which would be more than most places).  I guess some people have different priorities for how to spend their Saturday nights!

https://gomessiah.com/sports/mens-soccer/stats/2023/suny-brockport/boxscore/10973

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 10, 2023, 05:18:31 PM
Wow.  North Central crushed Rose Hulman 5-0.  I considered that a sleeper upset special.

I don't. Soft schedule or not (and I've gone on at length in the past on the CCIW board about Enzo Fuschino's propensity to fill the Cardinals larder with cupcakes), NCC returned pretty much everybody of note from what was an outstanding team last season, although their outstanding veteran goalkeeper Sid Marquardt has yet to play thus far (I presume he's injured, although not a word regarding his absence has come out of Naperville). The Cardinals will be very dangerous this season.

Rose-Hulman, whom I've seen previously, didn't strike me as a world-beater.

Some interesting non-conference results in Region X.  For the most part, SCIAC and SCAC continued to dominate the NWC and the ASC, but there were a few noteworthy exceptions.

Pacific OR (NWC) tied Cal Lutheran 2-2.  Cal Lu has had an up and down start to the season, losing to what appears to be a tough Texas Lutheran team, but beating Marymount (VA) and Whitworth.  So, I would have expected them to handle Pacific, which is predicted to finish below Whitworth in the NWS preseason polls.  Instead, Pacific had a 2-1 lead until Maxi Schelotto tied it up in the 85th minute at the UC Santa Cruz invitational.  The stream was awful (it appeared to be livestreamed from Veo, the picture wasn't straight, and the stitching together of the two sides wasn't complete), so I didn't watch too much, but it looked like Pacific was better than expected.  Still, from the stats Cal Lu had more shots on goal than Pacific and simply couldn't put them home.

Pacific Lutheran (NWC) tied Claremont-Mudd-Scripps (SCIAC) 2-2.  These are two heavyweights from their respective conferences and the match reflected that.  It looked like Pac Lu had the upper-hand after taking the lead in the 69th, even though CMS was very strong in possession and connected passes with lots of skill, but CMS managed to tie it up in the 86th minute.  I haven't seen anyone in the NWC likely to challenge Pac Lu.  CMS has more potential competitors in the SCIAC, but they definitely are playing better than they did last year already.  One advantage of the stream at Willamette, where the game was played, was that you could hear Coach Cartee's instructions to his players.  He seems to have them pointed in the right direction.

Pomona Pitzer (SCIAC) beat Linfield (NWC) 3-2.  This was harder for P-P than I expected, but they pulled it out with Alex Greenstein scoring a brace.  I can't decide whether Linfield is better than predicted or P-P is worse.  Cal Tech beat Linfield 3-2 and La Verne beat them 3-0, but they tied Augsburg for the only blemish on their record thus far.  I think Linfield might be able to break out of the bottom tier of the NWC standings, but they won't challenge the leaders.

Whittier (SCIAC) beat Lewis & Clark (NWC) 5-1.  Nice showing by Whittier, but Lewis & Clark hasn't proven to be a challenge for anyone yet.  They'll need another recruiting class or two before they can be competitive.

George Fox (NWC) beat La Verne (SCIAC) 2-1.  The only win for the NWC against a SCIAC foe in a game between two teams predicted to be toward the bottom of their respective conferences.  La Verne was pretty wasteful with it's chances, having 12 corner kicks to GF's 2.  Still, GF could have won by more as La Verne's excellent keeper, Logan Reese, saved a PK.

Trinity TX (SCAC) beat Whitman (NWC) 3-1.  Whitman finishes a really tough three game Texas trip winless.  Not sure that this game establishes that Trinity is fully back, but Michael Meese scores another goal and is currently the leading scorer.  When Meese is scoring regularly as he has been thus far, Trinity is always going to be tough.

UC Santa Cruz (C2C) beat Whitworth (NWC) 2-1 in the UC Santa Cruz invitational.  UCSC only has a 2-2 record, but their two losses were close: away to CMS 2-1 and to Redlands 4-3.  With the C2C having their conference tournament in Santa Cruz this year and every team but UCSC having to make a very long (in most cases cross-country) trip to play in it, this could be UCSC's year if they can find some way to get by Mary Washington and Christopher Newport.  The C2C tourney is such a wildcard because, unlike other conference tournaments, many of the teams have never played each other before the conference tournament.  So, you never know. 

Emory (UAA) beat Willamette (NWC) 2-0 in Salem, OR.  Willamette is now 0-4 to start the season.  While they've played a tough schedule in TX (St. Thomas and Southwestern) and then two good teams at home in Emory and CMS, they haven't looked great, scoring only 1 goal in those 4 games and giving up 3 in all but the Emory game.  With Whitman and Whitworth doing no better, they may still be toward the top of the NWC by default, but it could be a tougher slog for them this year.

UT Dallas (ASC) tied Southwestern (SCAC) 1-1.  This is somewhat of a surprise, but UTD played Babson and Wheaton tough in their road trip to Massachusetts and Southwestern's victories have come against the NWC teams (Whitman and Willamette), which may not be as impressive as they seemed based on other results.

St. Thomas (TX) (SCAC) beat Mary Hardin-Baylor (ASC) 2-0.  St. Thomas continues its dominance, along with Trinity, of the Texas D3 schools and Mary Hardin-Baylor continues it's tough start to the season.  They may be feeling the departure of their head coach to Hardin-Simmons.

Texas Lutheran (SCAC) beat Concordia (TX) (ASC) 1-0.  Texas Lutheran is now 4-0, having dispatched four teams predicted to be in the upper third of the SCIAC and ASC conferences.  I'm not sure they can beat the top two of their own conference (St. Thomas and Trinity), but those will be games to watch.  Concordia, which was 10-3-4 last year, starts the season 0-3-1.

TLU has had some great players (Luis Green, who graduated last season, led the conference in points per match last year and was second to Meese the year prior) and an absolutely immense roster (51, including 16 first-years).  For a school with an enrollment around 1400 that's a huge number, so they must be doing something right to recruit that many kids. 

If you want to see a great goal. https://twitter.com/i/status/1700992478223257659

Quote from: Ron Boerger on September 11, 2023, 12:16:50 PM
TLU has had some great players (Luis Green, who graduated last season, led the conference in points per match last year and was second to Meese the year prior) and an absolutely immense roster (51, including 16 first-years).  For a school with an enrollment around 1400 that's a huge number, so they must be doing something right to recruit that many kids.

Texas Lutheran scheduled 5 reserve team games this year against reserve or regular teams from other schools (Mary Hardin-Baylor, NAIA side Huston-Tillotson), youth clubs' U19 or older teams (IDEA Toros and Lions FC), and university club teams (University of Texas club team, which is probably quite strong).  As I discussed in a separate thread started earlier this year about reserve/JV teams, if you are going to go to a school that has a big roster like that, you'll want to find out if they have a reserve team and how they operate.  They make a lot of sense if they are a way to get (16!) first years playing time, but coaches need to be transparent about whether a player has a chance of making the full roster or whether this will be as good as it gets (in which case they are just school, rather than student, organized club teams).  I wouldn't be surprised if TLU assistant George Kee is the official head coach of the reserve team, since he played at Huston-Tillotson and probably had the connection to arrange the reserve team scrimmage with them.  Either way, 51 students associated with the men's soccer program at a school of 1400 is pretty impressive recruiting. 

Everything is big in Texas?  Not sure it's difficult to recruit for a roster of 51 as long as you are less selective.  Not saying they are, just saying.  They could have a single ID camp and get a bunch of recruits.  The time and resources to support 51 would be impressive for sure.

Quote from: Freddyfud on September 11, 2023, 01:46:30 PM
Everything is big in Texas?  Not sure it's difficult to recruit for a roster of 51 as long as you are less selective.  Not saying they are, just saying.  They could have a single ID camp and get a bunch of recruits.  The time and resources to support 51 would be impressive for sure.

It's not hard to pick 51 kids.  It's hard to get them to come to a tiny school without scholarship money knowing the chances of playing are very low because of the size of the roster and it's even harder to get them to stay on the team once they really understand where they stand and the tall odds to move up from there.

Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on September 11, 2023, 12:59:04 PM
If you want to see a great goal. https://twitter.com/i/status/1700992478223257659

I'd be curious to hear what some of the GK folks think....clearly a very nice goal, but should the keeper have done better?

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 11, 2023, 04:26:27 PM

Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on September 11, 2023, 12:59:04 PM
If you want to see a great goal. https://twitter.com/i/status/1700992478223257659

I'd be curious to hear what some of the GK folks think....clearly a very nice goal, but should the keeper have done better?

He might have shifted over to make an easier jump on the ball, but the ball had a lot of movement on it and there were a lot of bodies that could have obscured his line of sight.

Ball swerved a lot, good effort by the keeper, defenders are to be blamed for letting the guy get the shot off.

My naive, unprofessional take was that yes, the ball did have quite a bit of movement but looked like the GK only had to shift one step.  It was more like he was frozen and perhaps that speaks to Kuiper's point about being screened. 

Addendum:  OK, I watched the clip another dozen times and freeze framed the ball and the GK movements.  Looks like GK thinks the ball is headed to his left initially then realizes it's headed to his right, takes a step forward which no doubt was an error and also perhaps made his jump too early.  Bottom line...terrific goal...ball swerved right to left but also had major dip to sneak just under the crossbar.  First few times I watched I didn't realize that for a moment GK may have thought ball was going over crossbar and during flight the ball is above the crossbar until a wicked dip.  Great name too...Lucas Pleasants.

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 11, 2023, 05:33:40 PM
My naive, unprofessional take was that yes, the ball did have quite a bit of movement but looked like the GK only had to shift one step.  It was more like he was frozen and perhaps that speaks to Kuiper's point about being screened. 

Addendum:  OK, I watched the clip another dozen times and freeze framed the ball and the GK movements.  Looks like GK thinks the ball is headed to his left initially then realizes it's headed to his right, takes a step forward which no doubt was an error and also perhaps made his jump too early.  Bottom line...terrific goal...ball swerved right to left but also had major dip to sneak just under the crossbar.  First few times I watched I didn't realize that for a moment GK may have thought ball was going over crossbar and during flight the ball is above the crossbar until a wicked dip.  Great name too...Lucas Pleasants.

Great goal, but absolutely savable. Definite slight lean/step to his left before shot.  May have been screened abit also may have just shocked to see such bending fast shot from distance. Not many from that distance, bend and pace.

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 11, 2023, 05:33:40 PM
My naive, unprofessional take was that yes, the ball did have quite a bit of movement but looked like the GK only had to shift one step.  It was more like he was frozen and perhaps that speaks to Kuiper's point about being screened. 

Addendum:  OK, I watched the clip another dozen times and freeze framed the ball and the GK movements.  Looks like GK thinks the ball is headed to his left initially then realizes it's headed to his right, takes a step forward which no doubt was an error and also perhaps made his jump too early.  Bottom line...terrific goal...ball swerved right to left but also had major dip to sneak just under the crossbar.  First few times I watched I didn't realize that for a moment GK may have thought ball was going over crossbar and during flight the ball is above the crossbar until a wicked dip.  Great name too...Lucas Pleasants.

Raleigh native and has a brother who plays on a very talented UNCW squad.  As for me never mind the result that technique was as clean as it gets on the half volley and highlight worthy alone.

Franklin College scores a goal in the 90th minute (36 seconds to go on a long thrown in - cue Simple Coach!) to secure a 2-2 tie against Denison.  Kind of a big "upset" if a tie can be called an upset.  Franklin was 0-3 coming into the game (and hadn't scored a goal in any of those three games) and Denison was 4-0.

Quote from: Kuiper on September 11, 2023, 11:13:52 PM
Franklin College scores a goal in the 90th minute (36 seconds to go on a long thrown in - cue Simple Coach!) to secure a 2-2 tie against Denison.  Kind of a big "upset" if a tie can be called an upset.  Franklin was 0-3 coming into the game (and hadn't scored a goal in any of those three games) and Denison was 4-0.

Yes, the almost always upbeat Bianco I'm sure is disappointed.  Not sure I've seen a game recap without a quote from him since he's been at Denison.  He is desperate to make the Big Red perennially on par with the top guns in the region.  That said, Denison was a fairly soft 4-0...decent schedule but not too strenuous.  Btw, Bianco deserves some credit for CWRU still having a strong program in his wake.  He developed that program and left it in good hands.  CWRU in the past 5 or so years has quietly become at least middle of pack and maybe top half in the UAA.  Kind of a stealth program.

Quote from: Kuiper on September 11, 2023, 04:36:43 PM

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 11, 2023, 04:26:27 PM

Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on September 11, 2023, 12:59:04 PM
If you want to see a great goal. https://twitter.com/i/status/1700992478223257659

I'd be curious to hear what some of the GK folks think....clearly a very nice goal, but should the keeper have done better?

He might have shifted over to make an easier jump on the ball, but the ball had a lot of movement on it and there were a lot of bodies that could have obscured his line of sight.

That is just an amazing shot. I don't really even think the goalie did much wrong there, he just wasn't prepared for a one in a thousand shot from that spot on the field.

(I also don't really see very much the defenders did wrong there. Sometimes a golazo is just what it is. Professional announcers have kind of messed with us a bit... They are constantly looking to pin the blame of a goal on someone, when sometimes a player does something that just couldn't be stopped under normal circumstances.)

Ohio Northern travels to Ohio Wesleyan tomorrow which is sure to be a great game at Roy Rike. Ohio Northern dominated OWU last year in Ada, which the Bishops will surely be looking to avenge. ONU comes into this game a bit cooled off after their emphatic start, while OWU is just the opposite, winning their last two games, including one over #13 St. Olaf. Definitely a game worth watching as these two will battle to claim regional supremacy.

Quote from: Hopkins92 on September 12, 2023, 12:00:07 PM

Quote from: Kuiper on September 11, 2023, 04:36:43 PM

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 11, 2023, 04:26:27 PM

Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on September 11, 2023, 12:59:04 PM
If you want to see a great goal. https://twitter.com/i/status/1700992478223257659

I'd be curious to hear what some of the GK folks think....clearly a very nice goal, but should the keeper have done better?

He might have shifted over to make an easier jump on the ball, but the ball had a lot of movement on it and there were a lot of bodies that could have obscured his line of sight.

That is just an amazing shot. I don't really even think the goalie did much wrong there, he just wasn't prepared for a one in a thousand shot from that spot on the field.

(I also don't really see very much the defenders did wrong there. Sometimes a golazo is just what it is. Professional announcers have kind of messed with us a bit... They are constantly looking to pin the blame of a goal on someone, when sometimes a player does something that just couldn't be stopped under normal circumstances.)

To elaborate and provide more context to the not being "prepared" point, a GK in the modern game is expected to have their eyes looking back and forth for possible runs or unmarked players and, in an instant, evaluating priorities to determine where to shift, where to direct defenders to shift, and how to set themselves up.  From a priority perspective, a shot after a ball is trapped on the chest and is bouncing like that at that distance is lower down on the priority list for a GK.  That's why you see the GK pull out of his set position in anticipation of a different kind of action than a shot after the ball was cleared.  He might have re-evaluated once he saw the attacker cock his foot, but I'm not sure he could see it that well and it might have happened too quickly.  I'm sure a shot moved up the priority list the next time that player had the ball in the offensive half of the field.

Exactly. It's like criticizing a defender in basketball when a dude takes one dribble over the half-court line and jacks up a 3.

Chicago pulls out a 1-0 victory at North Park on a well-placed corner kick that resulted in an own goal.  Neither team looks as strong as they did last year, with lots of uncharacteristic giveaways (some the result of aggressive marking), but Chicago looked a bit stronger.  Interestingly, I thought Chicago's grad student transfer from D1 was not as solid in the back as their senior CBs from last year.  He may not have played out of the back at Princeton as they do at Chicago.

Great play-by-play and color crew, by the way, @GregorySager!

Quote from: Kuiper on September 12, 2023, 11:07:16 PM
Chicago pulls out a 1-0 victory at North Park on a well-placed corner kick that resulted in an own goal.  Neither team looks as strong as they did last year, with lots of uncharacteristic giveaways (some the result of aggressive marking), but Chicago looked a bit stronger.  Interestingly, I thought Chicago's grad student transfer from D1 was not as solid in the back as their senior CBs from last year.  He may not have played out of the back at Princeton as they do at Chicago.

Great play-by-play and color crew, by the way, @GregorySager!

Thanks! Appreciate that.

Chicago bossed the ball most of the night, but NPU had the better opportunities in the run of play, including a Mike Dejworek header that hit the crossbar and a pair of close-in strikes from Eduardo Cirilo and Emil Svenander that resulted in a spectacular double save by Maroons GK Will Boyes. Chicago's best chances came off of set plays -- the own goal was, as Kuiper said, the fruit of a perfectly-placed corner kick by Jack Leuker, and Lyndon Hu took advantage of a misplaced Vikings wall to rocket a free kick from 25 yards out that struck the upper right corner of the frame.

Both teams are dealing with some injury attrition, but the Maroons were able to provide the veteran experience that the youthful Vikings couldn't match. Still, I was encouraged by how well an NPU team that started two freshmen and nine sophomores stood up to that kind of scrutiny.

Quote from: Hopkins92 on September 12, 2023, 12:42:31 PM
Exactly. It's like criticizing a defender in basketball when a dude takes one dribble over the half-court line and jacks up a 3.

Love the analogy.  I was right in the middle of a response to you and Kuiper when the lights went out yesterday...something along the lines of "you can't stop Lucas Pleasants, you can only hope to contain him."  Anyway, I'm not contesting anything, just trying to understand and why I asked what the real GK folks think.  In terms of Kuiper's comments and yours, if part of the argument is that he had no reason to anticipate such a deep shot when he also must attend to the various possibilities unfolding right in front of him, why did he make his jump too early?  Or did he not make his jump too early?

I just went back and watched a handful of times again... I don't think he so much jumped early as he threw what I like to call a "token" dive out there. He knew he was beat, so he just made the effort to save a little face. He was a dead duck, but he dove over there so he didn't look like a statue. And I'm not giving him grief, we've all been there.

(A lot of Messi goals, especially on free kicks, you see the goalie do this.)

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 13, 2023, 08:40:11 AM

Quote from: Hopkins92 on September 12, 2023, 12:42:31 PM
Exactly. It's like criticizing a defender in basketball when a dude takes one dribble over the half-court line and jacks up a 3.

Love the analogy.  I was right in the middle of a response to you and Kuiper when the lights went out yesterday...something along the lines of "you can't stop Lucas Pleasants, you can only hope to contain him."  Anyway, I'm not contesting anything, just trying to understand and why I asked what the real GK folks think.  In terms of Kuiper's comments and yours, if part of the argument is that he had no reason to anticipate such a deep shot when he also must attend to the various possibilities unfolding right in front of him, why did he make his jump too early?  Or did he not make his jump too early?

I had to watch it several times.  My read is that he didn't make his jump early.  He made an early shift to his right as the attacker struck the ball and then realized it was swerving left and tried to jump immediately to correct it because he didn't think he had time to shift back left before making the jump.

And this is why GKs get frustrated when coaches scrutinize the film of their actions on a goal while fast-forwarding right by the field players originally responsible for this mess. If Otterbein's coach is watching this goal closely on film, all of his attention should be on why two defenders easily allow the left-sided player to pass the ball across the box, why the defender falls to his knees (in what might have been a penalty), and why the defender panic boots the ball up the center of the field (risking it getting blocked by the attacker on the ground or his teammate on his knees) rather than booting or pushing it out to the left side for a better chance for a clearance or booting it farther toward the sideline to his right where there was less chance of a block (it was a clear 10 foot+ lane to his right with no players to get in his way) and it would be less dangerous when it hit the ground.  That defender will get no grief for what happened, but he either made a split second decision no different than the GK that wasn't the best one in retrospect or he used poor technique in clearing the ball.  I get why he did it (there was a player in the box rushing in from his left and defenders are taught to clear a ball quickly in the box), but he kicked it right to the opponent, which was the proximate cause for the shot.

Lucas Pleasants...please meet Miko Warshaw.

Messiah Dickinson 0-0 with 30 min. left. Dickinson grass though nice is really really high so very slow game. Dickinson also had a great chance to score and does not appear to be just parking the bus.

Carleton with a big 1-0 win over Gustavus Adolphus to move to 5-0

Ohio Wesleyan beats Ohio Northern 1-0

Cortland and Rowan tie 1-1

Redlands beats Chapman 2-1

Claremont-Mudd-Scripps 1 Cal Lutheran 1 (Cal Lu tied it up at the buzzer on a shot from the edge of the box while CMS was playing with 10 men)

Occidental 8 Cal Tech 0 (ouch)

F&M 4-2 over Penn State Harrisburg. 5-0

F&M came out sleepwalking in some ways and PSU scored a popcorn goal after a very, very good long throw in the first half.  Over the last couple of years, PSU has definitely given F&M a hard time. Last 3 games to include NCAAs, 1-0 wins against PSU.  In second half, F&M's quality started to take over by scoring 2, then giving up a stupid foul with the free kick leading to 2-2. Oscar Horowitz stepped up and scored the next two goals.

Horowitz now has 7 goals over 5 games and 4 game winners.

FYI, Messiah scored with 9 min. left.  Dickinson fought back and almost tied it up. 7 min. left.

Trap games are real in soccer.

PSU-Harrisburg also beat Messiah in 2019.  They're a quality program now.   2 of F&M's goals were also "popcorn goals".  Shots 14-11 in favor of PSU-Harrisburg.   A lot of these F&M games have been even contests

Quote from: paclassic89 on September 13, 2023, 09:56:44 PM
PSU-Harrisburg also beat Messiah in 2019.  They're a quality program now.   2 of F&M's goals were also "popcorn goals".  Shots 14-11 in favor of PSU-Harrisburg.   A lot of these F&M games have been even contests

May have beaten them in 2019, but PSU beat Messiah definitely in 2021 1-0. Couple of my son's friends played for them.

Absolutely as to popcorn goals for F&M for at least one, but all in the run of play. 3 come from behind wins with many goals scored after the 70th min. If they don't play stronger early and figure out their defense, they'll end up on the wrong end running out of time to comeback. Could be easily 2-3 or 2-1-2.  Thankfully for them its a 90 min game.

Dickinson definitely looked good and lost a heartbreaker.

To F&M's credit, they are one of the best programs in the country at winning close games and grinding out wins.  The style of play and the bench antics has drawn a lot of negative attention/detractors (of which I am probably one) but the results are the results.

Here's a link to video of Cal Lutheran's fantastic buzzer beater goal to tie it up against Claremont-Mudd-Scripps. 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CxKIWq5rInJ/

Quote from: paclassic89 on September 13, 2023, 11:26:21 PM
To F&M's credit, they are one of the best programs in the country at winning close games and grinding out wins.  The style of play and the bench antics has drawn a lot of negative attention/detractors (of which I am probably one) but the results are the results.

Let's dial back the F&M accolades. They've won 2 conference championships in 17 tries and are usually good for a 1st/2nd round exit in the NCAA's.  Their sideline antics are annoying and their attempts on the field to get into opponents heads is often classless. I've seen them multiple times and it's not a program I can respect.

They are somewhat like Montclair, always coming in short of preseason expectations!

Quote from: camosfan on September 14, 2023, 07:57:17 AM
They are somewhat like Montclair, always coming in short of preseason expectations!

And they both play very direct styles. Hmmmm...

I'm sure my memory fails me, but I don't recall these narratives about F&M coming out during the 10+ years Amherst has been taking a beating for behavior.  It's easy (and to some degree quite fair) to point out that F&M has fallen short in the NCAA tourney.  The thing is....the Diplomats are always there to be able to lose a 1st, 2nd, or Sweet 16 game.  They've had at least a couple of Elite 8 too I believe.  One of the longest consecutive NCAA tourney appearances in the country.

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 14, 2023, 10:36:44 AM
I'm sure my memory fails me, but I don't recall these narratives about F&M coming out during the 10+ years Amherst has been taking a beating for behavior.  It's easy (and to some degree quite fair) to point out that F&M has fallen short in the NCAA tourney.  The thing is....the Diplomats are always there to be able to lose a 1st, 2nd, or Sweet 16 game.  They've had at least a couple of Elite 8 too I believe.  One of the longest consecutive NCAA tourney appearances in the country.

When I get in front of a computer I'll definitely address the valid points from people outside the program's criticism. Son just graduated from the college.

You know, as much as I dislike the "rah, rah, rah" mentality featured in F&M/NESCAC culture, it is effective at times. Now for longevity of play/success, that is where I would call into question, but thinking that these squads do not have one-off success years is no question. Amherst, Tufts, Williams have been brilliant and nightmares to play against in past years. Style/aesthetic of play aside, it works and can get results, but this style of play will unfortunately cause you to have some killer dropped results in conference. It is a give and take obviously.

Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on September 14, 2023, 10:56:12 AM

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 14, 2023, 10:36:44 AM
I'm sure my memory fails me, but I don't recall these narratives about F&M coming out during the 10+ years Amherst has been taking a beating for behavior.  It's easy (and to some degree quite fair) to point out that F&M has fallen short in the NCAA tourney.  The thing is....the Diplomats are always there to be able to lose a 1st, 2nd, or Sweet 16 game.  They've had at least a couple of Elite 8 too I believe.  One of the longest consecutive NCAA tourney appearances in the country.

When I get in front of a computer I'll definitely address the valid points from people outside the program's criticism. Son just graduated from the college.

You've been a pretty objective poster IMO, so curious to see your post.

I know that I have been critical of the F&M bench stuff, but I have been impressed with the way F&M's coach appears to adjust their style of play depending on who he as on the roster and/or the opponent he is playing. They certainly have a plan against Hopkins that is different than others I've seen them play (for those not paying close attention, Hopkins plays a high possession game and even when opponents are trying to wheel-lock them in to one side of the field, they can be reluctant to break that style... The Dips are fully aware and seem to try and bait them into certain actions with their press.)

Quote from: Ejay on September 14, 2023, 07:42:18 AM

Quote from: paclassic89 on September 13, 2023, 11:26:21 PM
To F&M's credit, they are one of the best programs in the country at winning close games and grinding out wins.  The style of play and the bench antics has drawn a lot of negative attention/detractors (of which I am probably one) but the results are the results.

Let's dial back the F&M accolades. They've won 2 conference championships in 17 tries and are usually good for a 1st/2nd round exit in the NCAA's.  Their sideline antics are annoying and their attempts on the field to get into opponents heads is often classless. I've seen them multiple times and it's not a program I can respect.

All true and definitely valid criticism. I can agree with both.  Some might say that F&M is the Williams of the Centennial Conference but with less success.

This is from the perspective of a parent who's son played his last two years at F&M as a co-captain his junior year and sole captain last year. Starting with the F&M's sideline squad, I can definitely see how this can be seen as antics from the outside and probably by all objective metrics be considered disrespectful and irking.  For me, it did not strike me the same way, but coming from Maryland many lacrosse squads are similar.  Also, if you ever see a Univ. of Maryland soccer match, you will see students standing directly behind the opposition defense and engage.

As to the F&M team, they never sit on the sidelines and are actively engaged in watching the play while cheering. During HS and some college games, many teams and fans would call out my son as the keeper which my son actually loved.  One Cent. Conf. team fans actually did some research and used my wife's and daughter's names during matches in not a particularly pleasant manner. Probably fair game. As a note, many teams' benches do not sit during matches as well, but may not be as active. During many games, when my son made a play, his bench would taunt him by drawing out his last name over and over and over which we all thought was hilarious and so did he. Senior banquet they did it again. Things the bench would do as to cheers would be when a ball went out and it was F&M's they would all yell "That a way" and wave at that direction in unison.  Also on fouls on a F&M player, sometimes they would say "You can't do that" several times.  Ultimately, the bench was always involved and into the game. Maybe to an extreme and not fun for anybody not for F&M, but the team was a team.

To build on the team aspect, in the first three games of this season all but two field players and the backup keeper played in these. That's 27 players over these games and each game was a one goal win.  Two of the games they had to come back and score twice in at least the last 20 minutes. A lot of trust by the coaches and kids coming off the bench to deliver. FYI, by the 4th game all rostered players played.  Many coaches at most levels will not do this especially on high level teams which have big expectations each year. Most coaches down from my experience substantially tighten up their rotations Also note that many coaches have one or more reliable backs that never come off the field at any point. Not the case for F&M.
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As to success or lack of success, F&M has only had 2 Centennial Conf. tournament titles and over the last nine years gone to the Sweet 16 and Elite 8 once while the remaining times lost in the second or first round - last three years in the second round and twice, including last year, lost in pks. Last year, F&M won the regular season Cent. Conf. title with a record of 7-0-2 and beat Hopkins for its only loss in regular time all season. (Some will say that goal was lucky, but Hopkins could not capitalize on some of their opportunities. Or some will say that F&M played crap soccer which I would not deny, but they were effective and stuck to their game plan).  It is what it is, which is soccer and how tough and exacting it can be.  However, how many teams would love to go to 9 straight NCAA tournaments? Kids come to programs to play and have success while having a good time. Objectively, the coaches provide those opportunities.

Another thing, people can't see from the outside is what actually goes on in programs. We as a family have had to experience a whole lot over my son's career. Long, long, long story, but he actually went through the recruitment process three times which was had a lot to do with the fact that we are a family with limited means and little tolerance for incurring crippling college debt. He ended one of the very few transfers to F&M.  He's been the only one over the last three years and he definitely had to earn his playing time. He had also pass very close scrutiny by the coaches and F&M network before he could come. Long discussions between him and the coaches. Before coming to F&M and when he was accepted, he was playing chess online with the head coach during Covid. Outside of F&M and maybe two other programs, he did not come back with any great feelings from many coaches and programs.  Not saying there aren't any others, but in the D1/D3 there are probably only a few in my opinion.

F&M for him and the other teammates the experience is pretty unique from what I can tell.  The teams doesn't stop at the end of the season or even at the end of their college career. They choose to live and study with each other. Son as a captain worked his teammates the other 9 months of the year helping them navigate the college experience and live up to the team standard.  The team is not only incredibly close, but it does not end at graduation. The alumni network willingly gives back to the program and not just financially.  Much more in ways of mentorship during the season (from what I can tell alumni are actively involved during season working with players and their player groups). Involved in internships as well as career counseling is big part of the F&M soccer experience. Senior year, the team had a career conference where young soccer alumni came back and discussed their journeys and met with them in small groups. Also, networking for jobs and connections post college play a role.

Overall and in my mind, it is what you would want your son to experience becoming a man and moving on into a successful future. They also had a lot of fun along the way. Son is now in Denver area working at Cigna's headquarters as an actuarial analysist in its Actuarial Executive Development Program. High level math sh*t that as a lowly lawyer concerning which I have very little knowledge. All I can ask.

Well done, Sierra.

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 14, 2023, 12:44:40 PM
Well done, Sierra.

Very kind and appreciate your analysis especially about teams I have no clue about.

Thanks for all that Sierra. For the record, digging up mom and sister names is over the line.

Also, the first time I encountered the F&M bench, I found it to be disrespectful and unsportsmanlike. Then I sat back and looked at it objectively and... It can be very funny and it's relatively harmless.

I played baseball at a pretty high level... It might be out of boredom, but nothing the F&M bench does comes within a country mile of the things I've heard (and said) from a baseball bench. That stuff is brutal and VERY personal.

I like Sierra's post. I think it is completely true we see things differently from the inside and the outside. We dismiss antics from our own teams and grind on antics from other teams, even when they are roughly the same b.s. That being said, the few games I've watched of F&M online it does seem excessive to me.

It's not anything I haven't seen other teams do, it's the constant quantity of their antics that annoys me. Now, would I care if I was on the field on an opposing team? No. You focus on the game and play hard. I'm in my mid-40s and still compete and judge taekwondo competitions. As an adult competitor there are competitors that annoy me, and there are spectators that annoy me. But once I step on the mat, that goes away. If you want to showboat a bit or muck around trying to win extra judgment calls, or waste time, or make contact seem worse than it is, that's your deal. The more you do it, the less I respect you, but I'm out there to win whether you are my favorite competitor or my least favorite, and I'm going to go as hard as I can against both types. As a judge, it's the same. I've had to throw out plenty of parents (usually the only spectators) for cruddy behavior, but I don't do it for the kind of generalized, irritating stuff that I've seen from F&M, it just doesn't rise to that level that I consider actionable. Irritating to other spectators? Gets under thinner skinned competitors? Maybe, but not even close to being a real problem.

So yeah, I find the antics a little extra, and combined with a generally direct style of play, it makes me less inclined to watch a F&M game. But D3 isn't about the spectators, it's for the student athletes. And a successful experience is a significant part of what student athletes are striving for. Anyone who doesn't think F&M is a successful program is being a little ridiculous.

There are 400+ D3 men's soccer teams, F&M is consistently among the top 50 if not top 25 every year, and more than a few years better than that. That puts them in the top 6-12% of D3 teams. I may think their antics and base style of play are irritating, but you are kidding yourself if you think they aren't among the most successful programs in D3 over quite a significant time period.

Now are they the top 1 or 2%? No, but that's not the limit for success I'm willing to draw. If you can spend a decade or two in the top 15-20% of D3 teams, roughly the top 60-80 programs, you are a legitimate successful D3 program in my opinion. If you can spend a decade in the top 10% of teams, the top 40, you are a great D3 program. If you can spend a decade in the top 5%, the top 20 teams, you are an outstanding D3 program. And if you can go deep in the tournament, elite 8 or better, 30% of a 10 year span, given the vagaries of soccer tournaments, you are the best of the best. F&M isn't at that last level, but I'd definitely put them in the great/outstanding categories.

Yeah, totally agree with that assessment of success. There are a TON of teams that would trade places with their post-season success in a heartbeat.

Quote from: Hopkins92 on September 14, 2023, 01:39:08 PM
Yeah, totally agree with that assessment of success. There are a TON of teams that would trade places with their post-season success in a heartbeat.

Yes, for some reason I think of F&M perennially ending seasons ranked around #13 or #14...for a good decade or more...and I would I guess they ended up most years in the #12-#16 range or higher.  Very strong stretch of consistent success...very akin to Hopkins and Kenyon over a similar period, and just unable thus far to completely break through.

I want to say this about F&M, when I look at them, they are steady year after year, despite not getting the quality recruits that Montclair attracts, says a lot about the quality of the coaching.

Appreciate you sharing, Sierra.  I love learning about as many teams as humanly possible (limited by IQ for me sadly) and hearing tales that help you better understand what makes a program click. I am glad your son had a great experience and has found a great career starting point.  I don't think as a parent, you can ask for much more than that.  Plus, F&M sounds like they could be kindred spirits with Amherst.  Apologies, if I just over-reached...

Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on September 14, 2023, 12:38:10 PM

Quote from: Ejay on September 14, 2023, 07:42:18 AM

Quote from: paclassic89 on September 13, 2023, 11:26:21 PM
To F&M's credit, they are one of the best programs in the country at winning close games and grinding out wins.  The style of play and the bench antics has drawn a lot of negative attention/detractors (of which I am probably one) but the results are the results.

Let's dial back the F&M accolades. They've won 2 conference championships in 17 tries and are usually good for a 1st/2nd round exit in the NCAA's.  Their sideline antics are annoying and their attempts on the field to get into opponents heads is often classless. I've seen them multiple times and it's not a program I can respect.

All true and definitely valid criticism. I can agree with both.  Some might say that F&M is the Williams of the Centennial Conference but with less success.

This is from the perspective of a parent who's son played his last two years at F&M as a co-captain his junior year and sole captain last year. Starting with the F&M's sideline squad, I can definitely see how this can be seen as antics from the outside and probably by all objective metrics be considered disrespectful and irking.  For me, it did not strike me the same way, but coming from Maryland many lacrosse squads are similar.  Also, if you ever see a Univ. of Maryland soccer match, you will see students standing directly behind the opposition defense and engage.

As to the F&M team, they never sit on the sidelines and are actively engaged in watching the play while cheering. During HS and some college games, many teams and fans would call out my son as the keeper which my son actually loved.  One Cent. Conf. team fans actually did some research and used my wife's and daughter's names during matches in not a particularly pleasant manner. Probably fair game. As a note, many teams' benches do not sit during matches as well, but may not be as active. During many games, when my son made a play, his bench would taunt him by drawing out his last name over and over and over which we all thought was hilarious and so did he. Senior banquet they did it again. Things the bench would do as to cheers would be when a ball went out and it was F&M's they would all yell "That a way" and wave at that direction in unison.  Also on fouls on a F&M player, sometimes they would say "You can't do that" several times.  Ultimately, the bench was always involved and into the game. Maybe to an extreme and not fun for anybody not for F&M, but the team was a team.

To build on the team aspect, in the first three games of this season all but two field players and the backup keeper played in these. That's 27 players over these games and each game was a one goal win.  Two of the games they had to come back and score twice in at least the last 20 minutes. A lot of trust by the coaches and kids coming off the bench to deliver. FYI, by the 4th game all rostered players played.  Many coaches at most levels will not do this especially on high level teams which have big expectations each year. Most coaches down from my experience substantially tighten up their rotations Also note that many coaches have one or more reliable backs that never come off the field at any point. Not the case for F&M.
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As to success or lack of success, F&M has only had 2 Centennial Conf. tournament titles and over the last nine years gone to the Sweet 16 and Elite 8 once while the remaining times lost in the second or first round - last three years in the second round and twice, including last year, lost in pks. Last year, F&M won the regular season Cent. Conf. title with a record of 7-0-2 and beat Hopkins for its only loss in regular time all season. (Some will say that goal was lucky, but Hopkins could not capitalize on some of their opportunities. Or some will say that F&M played crap soccer which I would not deny, but they were effective and stuck to their game plan).  It is what it is, which is soccer and how tough and exacting it can be.  However, how many teams would love to go to 9 straight NCAA tournaments? Kids come to programs to play and have success while having a good time. Objectively, the coaches provide those opportunities.

Another thing, people can't see from the outside is what actually goes on in programs. We as a family have had to experience a whole lot over my son's career. Long, long, long story, but he actually went through the recruitment process three times which was had a lot to do with the fact that we are a family with limited means and little tolerance for incurring crippling college debt. He ended one of the very few transfers to F&M.  He's been the only one over the last three years and he definitely had to earn his playing time. He had also pass very close scrutiny by the coaches and F&M network before he could come. Long discussions between him and the coaches. Before coming to F&M and when he was accepted, he was playing chess online with the head coach during Covid. Outside of F&M and maybe two other programs, he did not come back with any great feelings from many coaches and programs.  Not saying there aren't any others, but in the D1/D3 there are probably only a few in my opinion.

F&M for him and the other teammates the experience is pretty unique from what I can tell.  The teams doesn't stop at the end of the season or even at the end of their college career. They choose to live and study with each other. Son as a captain worked his teammates the other 9 months of the year helping them navigate the college experience and live up to the team standard.  The team is not only incredibly close, but it does not end at graduation. The alumni network willingly gives back to the program and not just financially.  Much more in ways of mentorship during the season (from what I can tell alumni are actively involved during season working with players and their player groups). Involved in internships as well as career counseling is big part of the F&M soccer experience. Senior year, the team had a career conference where young soccer alumni came back and discussed their journeys and met with them in small groups. Also, networking for jobs and connections post college play a role.

Overall and in my mind, it is what you would want your son to experience becoming a man and moving on into a successful future. They also had a lot of fun along the way. Son is now in Denver area working at Cigna's headquarters as an actuarial analysist in its Actuarial Executive Development Program. High level math sh*t that as a lowly lawyer concerning which I have very little knowledge. All I can ask.

Very well said.  D3 soccer is about fun, and rivalaries, and competition.  I know we all like to engage in banter and we have our  likes and dislikes.  I introduced @EnmoreCat to some of the Middlebury parents, and they discovered that not everything or everyone associated with Amherst was the devil incarnate.  I attended two NCAA games at F & M in 2021, where they lost at home to Middlebury.  Did I find their bench behavior annoying?  Yes, but not any worse than what I routinely see in NESCAC games.  By the way, my son loves the banter.  The more people chirp him, the better he likes it, and it seems to motivate him.  There are only 11 guys who can play at once.  Kudos to all players who are focused on the game and supporting their friends. 

At the end of the day, this is about getting a great education, forging lifelong bonds, and enjoying being part of a team.  Happy for those who find what they are looking for, regardless of what team they play for.

^^^^^^Also well said, CSO.

"Very well said.  D3 soccer is about fun, and rivalaries, and competition.  I know we all like to engage in banter and we have our  likes and dislikes.  I introduced @EnmoreCat to some of the Middlebury parents, and they discovered that not everything or everyone associated with Amherst was the devil incarnate.  I attended two NCAA games at F & M in 2021, where they lost at home to Middlebury.  Did I find their bench behavior annoying?  Yes, but not any worse than what I routinely see in NESCAC games.  By the way, my son loves the banter.  The more people chirp him, the better he likes it, and it seems to motivate him.  There are only 11 guys who can play at once.  Kudos to all players who are focused on the game and supporting their friends.

At the end of the day, this is about getting a great education, forging lifelong bonds, and enjoying being part of a team.  Happy for those who find what they are looking for, regardless of what team they play for."

Thanks, FYI, one of my son's darkest days. Hahaha. Middlebury thumped them 2-0 that day and definitely deserved the win.  F&M could not meet the their physicality that day.  Had a narrow chance to tie (great PK save and then a very good opportunity they could not put on frame) Middlebury keeper was great. Wished you all could have gone all the way.

Quote from: EnmoreCat on September 14, 2023, 02:19:10 PM
Appreciate you sharing, Sierra.  I love learning about as many teams as humanly possible (limited by IQ for me sadly) and hearing tales that help you better understand what makes a program click. I am glad your son had a great experience and has found a great career starting point.  I don't think as a parent, you can ask for much more than that.  Plus, F&M sounds like they could be kindred spirits with Amherst.  Apologies, if I just over-reached...

Absolutely no worries and thanks for your kind words. From my experience, boards often lack context and I was trying to fill in the picture for where my comments come from.   I have opinions, we all have opinions, and if I can't support them then where will I be?

Quote from: camosfan on September 14, 2023, 01:54:46 PM
I want to say this about F&M, when I look at them, they are steady year after year, despite not getting the quality recruits that Montclair attracts, says a lot about the quality of the coaching.

Absolutely, Coach Dan Wagner, Messiah 95, (and his wife), Donnie Spangler and Dan's brother Mark, part time and former long time Eastern Coll coach. 21 years at F&M. They work incredibly hard and all three could easy be coaching separately at other schools.

Also, and not the least of it, one of early SimpleCoach's interviewees (second most popular of his youtube coach interview - more views than subscribers right now) which obviously goes a whole, whole way.

Quote from: Hopkins92 on September 14, 2023, 01:26:42 PM
Thanks for all that Sierra. For the record, digging up mom and sister names is over the line.

Also, the first time I encountered the F&M bench, I found it to be disrespectful and unsportsmanlike. Then I sat back and looked at it objectively and... It can be very funny and it's relatively harmless.

I played baseball at a pretty high level... It might be out of boredom, but nothing the F&M bench does comes within a country mile of the things I've heard (and said) from a baseball bench. That stuff is brutal and VERY personal.

You haven't heard "brutal and VERY personal" until you've attended a men's volleyball match. Baseball trash talk from the dugout comes from a place of macho cameraderie. But occasionally with men's volleyball, it seems to be coming from a place of being mentally unhinged. I like a lot of the men's volleyball players I've met, as the practitioners of that sport tend to be a very colorful bunch. But a certain percentage of them are a little too colorful, if you know what I mean. Occasionally, when I have to call a match in which the opposing team is waaaay out of line with the verbal abuse, and their coach isn't interested in reining them in, I start to wonder if being a male volleyball player ranks just below boyhood animal abuse in terms of being a leading indicator of serial-killer sociopathy.

At 3-0-1 and No. 24 in Massey, Rochester is outperforming my expectations, though I figured that would be good enough. 

Rochester tied the Rochester of Institute of Technology on a free kick late in the game.  The RIT keeper is going to be thinking about this one for a while.

https://x.com/UofRathletics/status/1701765687969227129?s=20

Thanks, WUPHF! This means that I'll have seen at least 44 seconds of soccer this season from the U of Paywall!

(In all fairness, that quick turnaround in showing the slow-mo replay of the goal was a sign of top-notch work by the Yellowjackets' production staff.)

Weirdly, Massey has the Hopkins record wrong (2-2-2 when the actual is 3-1-2).

Quote from: Hopkins92 on September 14, 2023, 04:08:55 PM
Weirdly, Massey has the Hopkins record wrong (2-2-2 when the actual is 3-1-2).

Yeah, saw that as well.  For some reason last night the box score in the stats had 2-1 for St. Marys for awhile.  I think they eventually got it correct. In the past when I've see mistakes like that, I've sent emails to Massey and he usually corrects it quickly.

Quote from: Hopkins92 on September 14, 2023, 04:08:55 PM
Weirdly, Massey has the Hopkins record wrong (2-2-2 when the actual is 3-1-2).

Also weirdly the NCAA scores site had St Mary's beating JHU 3-1 instead of reverse....I almost posted about what the heck was going on with Hopkins but decided I should check the school websites first.  These will some of the biggest things I'll miss from D3soccer.com.

Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 14, 2023, 03:46:41 PM
Thanks, WUPHF! This means that I'll have seen at least 44 seconds of soccer this season from the U of Paywall!

(In all fairness, that quick turnaround in showing the slow-mo replay of the goal was a sign of top-notch work by the Yellowjackets' production staff.)

Oh my God, that is hilarious, sad, and true all at the same time.

In a week in which an SID made headline news with his resignation, I think the replays are a nice touch and worth the extra work if the communications team has the capacity to do so (e.g. student workers).

Whoever was doing live stats entered the teams incorrectly but they fixed it in the final XML upload to the NCAA.  Also, that's a nice little hint as to how Massey is scraping scores haha

If someone emails to Massey through the contact us (or whatever the name of the sytem is called) and links them to the result of the game on the college website, they should fix any result. I remember a couple years back I emailed and they fixed a result in a quick time frame.

Enjoy the boards, but too busy with work and watching soccer.  Regards till December ;). Good luck to all!

RE:  Failures of some perennially strong programs to win national titles...

A little perspective...

Since 2002, the past 20 seasons, THIS is the reality...Messiah has won 10, NESCAC (Middlebury, Tufts, Amherst, Conn Coll) has won 7 (with Tufts winning an amazing 4 in 6 years and 3 out of 4 years), and THE FIELD has 3.

The only non-Messiah, non-NESCAC winners in a full 20 seasons are Trinity (TX) way, way back in 2003, OWU in 2011, and Chicago in 2022.

Now consider that the most decorated and winningest coach in D3 history, in 46 years, Jay Martin, has won 2.

The great Mike Russo with all the stacked Williams teams over many years won a total of 1.

The great Paul McGinlay at Trinity (TX) has 1.

Durocher at SLU won 1. 

Joe Bean at Wheaton (Ill) won 2.

Skip Roderick at Etown won 1.

Mike Coven at Brandeis won 1 (way, way back in 1976).

Bottom line...it's ridiculously hard.  And statistically unlikely for THE FIELD.

Imo, the most overdue, just considering the past decade or so......

Calvin by a mile, Oneonta St and maybe Montclair St, then Kenyon, next North Park, W&L, and Hopkins, followed closely by F&M and probably Rochester.  I may be missing one or two and of course some may quibble with the order here.

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 15, 2023, 11:47:28 AM
Calvin by a mile, Oneonta St and maybe Montclair St, then Kenyon, next North Park, W&L, and Hopkins, followed closely by F&M and probably Rochester.  I may be missing one or two and of course some may quibble with the order here.

:'( :'( :'(

Quote from: calvin_grad on September 15, 2023, 01:34:42 PM

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 15, 2023, 11:47:28 AM
Calvin by a mile, Oneonta St and maybe Montclair St, then Kenyon, next North Park, W&L, and Hopkins, followed closely by F&M and probably Rochester.  I may be missing one or two and of course some may quibble with the order here.

:'( :'( :'(

I get it, but no tears for Calvin, and I trust you know I was complimenting your Knights. Outside of Tufts, Messiah, and maybe Chicago and Amherst, no one has had more sustained success with so many Final Fours and title games.

Quote from: calvin_grad on September 15, 2023, 01:34:42 PM

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 15, 2023, 11:47:28 AM
Calvin by a mile, Oneonta St and maybe Montclair St, then Kenyon, next North Park, W&L, and Hopkins, followed closely by F&M and probably Rochester.  I may be missing one or two and of course some may quibble with the order here.

:'( :'( :'(

Hey, would you rather be the program that is the perpetual national bridesmaid, or would you rather be Olivet?

I get the "can't win the big win" mantra and its cousin the constant culture war cry about "participation trophies" especially in the era of sports radio and ESPN obsession with GOATS, but imo almost all of that is nonsense....and a real disservice to programs like Calvin.  You have to be a winner at the highest levels to be in a position to grab a title so often.  To me its analogous to ranking Magic Johnson and Larry Bird at like #5 or #8 all-time as though they somehow fell short and/or were flawed.

Freebie for Enmorecat....are Rod Laver and John Newcombe less great because of Djokovic, Nadal, and Federer 50 years later? Not a perfect analogy but Enmorecat needs something to do given the ppd status of Amh at the Jumbotron.

Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 15, 2023, 01:54:12 PM

Quote from: calvin_grad on September 15, 2023, 01:34:42 PM

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 15, 2023, 11:47:28 AM
Calvin by a mile, Oneonta St and maybe Montclair St, then Kenyon, next North Park, W&L, and Hopkins, followed closely by F&M and probably Rochester.  I may be missing one or two and of course some may quibble with the order here.

:'( :'( :'(

Hey, would you rather be the program that is the perpetual national bridesmaid, or would you rather be Olivet?

My opinion - just to be in the conversation incredibly complimentary. As to bridesmaid, I would definitely want to be that as you are in the mix as opposed to a has been. Think Hartwick. Kids have short memory spans. Being close, can inspire kids to come to your program.

And @calvin_grad....just noticed that you have an outstanding post/+karma ratio.

Now, be truthful... does Chris Schau have bottomless eligibility?

And how are folks enjoying the refurbished facility?

Got to be in it to win it!

(https://c.tenor.com/rfJrzwp460AAAAAM/this-agree.gif)

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 15, 2023, 02:24:03 PM
I get the "can't win the big win" mantra and its cousin the constant culture war cry about "participation trophies" especially in the era of sports radio and ESPN obsession with GOATS, but imo almost all of that is nonsense....and a real disservice to programs like Calvin.  You have to be a winner at the highest levels to be in a position to grab a title so often.  To me its analogous to ranking Magic Johnson and Larry Bird at like #5 or #8 all-time as though they somehow fell short and/or were flawed.

Freebie for Enmorecat....are Rod Laver and John Newcombe less great because of Djokovic, Nadal, and Federer 50 years later? Not a perfect analogy but Enmorecat needs something to do given the ppd status of Amh at the Jumbotron.

I had to google "PPD" and came up with Post Partum Depression, Paul Newman, I am gonna have to come back to you on that one I think.  As for the tennis, you can only beat who is playing at the time.  My family's background also means I would be throwing Vitas Gerulaitis into the mix.  My best guess is that he along with Guillermo Vilas, might not have had the games to break down the modern superstars you mention, but equally I don't expect they would compromise their own game to do so.

Amherst/Tufts shifted to Sunday, apparently a hurricane might be coming to Boston...

Quote from: EnmoreCat on September 15, 2023, 04:02:33 PM

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 15, 2023, 02:24:03 PM
I get the "can't win the big win" mantra and its cousin the constant culture war cry about "participation trophies" especially in the era of sports radio and ESPN obsession with GOATS, but imo almost all of that is nonsense....and a real disservice to programs like Calvin.  You have to be a winner at the highest levels to be in a position to grab a title so often.  To me its analogous to ranking Magic Johnson and Larry Bird at like #5 or #8 all-time as though they somehow fell short and/or were flawed.

Freebie for Enmorecat....are Rod Laver and John Newcombe less great because of Djokovic, Nadal, and Federer 50 years later? Not a perfect analogy but Enmorecat needs something to do given the ppd status of Amh at the Jumbotron.

I had to google "PPD" and came up with Post Partum Depression, Paul Newman, I am gonna have to come back to you on that one I think.  As for the tennis, you can only beat who is playing at the time.  My family's background also means I would be throwing Vitas Gerulaitis into the mix.  My best guess is that he along with Guillermo Vilas, might not have had the games to break down the modern superstars you mention, but equally I don't expect they would compromise their own game to do so.

Amherst/Tufts shifted to Sunday, apparently a hurricane might be coming to Boston...

PPD = postponed

Thanks Jknezek - I was never getting that!

EnmoreCat...I absolutely loved Vilas...one of my heros, probably a bit because I'm also a lefty...but mainly loved his game and demeanor...a nice break from Borg's schizoidal style, McEnroe's antics (speaking of antics), the dour Lendl, and the buttoned up Stan Smith.  Of course Arthur Ashe was my first tennis hero and a few years ahead of the others.  Vitas was good but I can't put him at that very top level...maybe a small notch above a Roscoe Tanner.

You disappointed me on ppd...but yes, post-partum depression is no joke and one of the leading causes of infanticide among women and often accompanied by psychosis.

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 15, 2023, 05:28:29 PM
EnmoreCat...I absolutely loved Vilas...one of my heros, probably a bit because I'm also a lefty...but mainly loved his game and demeanor...a nice break from Borg's schizoidal style, McEnroe's antics (speaking of antics), the dour Lendl, and the buttoned up Stan Smith.  Of course Arthur Ashe was my first tennis hero and a few years ahead of the others.  Vitas was good but I can't put him at that very top level...maybe a small notch above a Roscoe Tanner.

You disappointed me on ppd...but yes, post-partum depression is no joke and one of the leading causes of infanticide among women and often accompanied by psychosis.

Rocket Rod Laver was my favorite and still pretty much. Total class. Definitely loved Vilas who was always competitive.

Hope has had the ball maybe 2 minutes of the first 25...and leads 1-0 over Chicago completely against run of play.  Announcers a bit too active for me but good...and before the goal said Hope will probably get 4 chances on the counter all game and hopefully would score on one.  They did but I imagine it's gonna take more than one.

Disappointed to see that apparently no video for games in Richmond...so that messes up my Sunday feature game of MW-Emory.  Of course now we have a couple of monster NESCAC games Sunday.  Emory bests Catholic 3-1.  I had been curious to see if Hampden-Sydney could do anything with MW.

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 15, 2023, 07:37:58 PM
Hope has had the ball maybe 2 minutes of the first 25...and leads 1-0 over Chicago completely against run of play.  Announcers a bit too active for me but good...and before the goal said Hope will probably get 4 chances on the counter all game and hopefully would score on one.  They did but I imagine it's gonna take more than one.

Disappointed to see that apparently no video for games in Richmond...so that messes up my Sunday feature game of MW-Emory.  Of course now we have a couple of monster NESCAC games Sunday.  Emory bests Catholic 3-1.  I had been curious to see if Hampden-Sydney could do anything with MW.

Sign of the Apocalypse - UMW has a Esports varsity team.

Shots are 24 to 2...but Hope still up 1-0 in 55th min.

Wow...Hope takes it.  Chicago led shots 34-5, but credit Hope who looked like they knew exactly what they were doing the whole time.  I didn't watch enough of Hope vs OWU to know how Hope played that one but they did get a draw there too.  Won't be a problem for Chicago but huge for Hope who now have a win and a draw with two teams who will be regionally ranked in November. 

Good example of how a #1 seed can lose a 1st or 2nd round game even when dominant.

Don't forget that McEnroe, despite his antics, was a lefty and also a very talented player.  And who, among Americans, can leave out Andre Agassi (despite his mullet) and Pete Sampras (despite his somewhat boring demeanor relative to the aforementioned big personalities)...

Quote from: northman on September 15, 2023, 09:13:05 PM
Don't forget that McEnroe, despite his antics, was a lefty and also a very talented player.  And who, among Americans, can leave out Andre Agassi (despite his mullet) and Pete Sampras (despite his somewhat boring demeanor relative to the aforementioned big personalities)...

Yeah, I never liked McEnroe (or Connors).  That said, some of the McEnroe-Borg and a couple of the McEnroe-Lendl matches were fantastic...definitely an incredible player who won the NCAA title as a frosh at Stanford over a guy I knew named John Sadri from NC State in a classic that you can still watch online.  A few years later I got to see Sadri play Borg at the US Open.  Loved Sampras...Agassi not so much...and both were really part of the next generation.

Chicago loses for the first time since 2021....now Messiah has the longest streak going...if the Falcons didn't already.

Meanwhile, North Park and Wartburg have combined for a grad total of 3 shots for the whole 1st half.  0-0 at the half.

Ohio Northern up 1-0 on North Central at the half....would be much needed and valuable win for the Polar Bears if they can get it.

Denison seemed to dispatch Centre with relative ease.

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 15, 2023, 09:21:30 PM
Chicago loses for the first time since 2021....now Messiah has the longest streak going...if the Falcons didn't already.

Meanwhile, North Park and Wartburg have combined for a grad total of 3 shots for the whole 1st half.  0-0 at the half.

Ohio Northern up 1-0 on North Central at the half....would be much needed and valuable win for the Polar Bears if they can get it.

Denison seemed to dispatch Centre with relative ease.

And they could not...tough stretch here for ONU as the big Kenyon victory is feeling like a distant memory.  And North Park tomorrow night...who tied Wartburg in a well played game for the most part...North Park almost unraveled with fouling and complaints about foul calls but rallied late to put some good, sustained pressure on Wartburg who definitely had their spells of possession and some excellent chances, including in the last 25 seconds.

Wartburg is very solid. Underestimate the Knights at your own peril.

I'm happy with the way the Vikings played, for the most part. Between having to account for a lot of injury attrition, a red-card suspension being served by one of NPU's most important players, and the prospect of playing an angry and highly motivated Ohio Northern team tomorrow night, North Park head coach Kris Grahn really had to manage minutes and extend his rotation. Four freshmen and four sophomores started for the Vikings, with three more frosh coming off of the bench (two of whom made their college debuts, including a CB who played 65 minutes). Aside from some dumb fouls late in the contest, the kiddie brigade more than held their own for NPU.

Nevertheless, right now North Central looks like the team to beat in the CCIW. The Cardinals tagged ONU for three goals in less than four minutes in the second half of tonight's game at Benedetti-Wehrli Stadium, and the goal that the Polar Bears scored in the first half was the only shot on goal they had all night. NCC is clearly firing on all cylinders.

Look, I know the University of Chicago is a pretty mediocre school with limited resources, but still, as national champs and a leading contender again, you would think the SID would eventually get around to recaps.  Still no recap from the Tuesday North Park match and none for last night's bizarre loss to Hope.  Btw, along with the 34 to 5 shot count, the Hope recap says Chicago held possession for 70% of the match.  I'll eat a hat if anything less than 85%.  Chicago would literally (and to be fair Hope seemed intentionally compliant) have the ball in the Hope half for 7-8 minutes at a time, Hope would finally get it and counter for 30-40 secs, and then right back to another 7-8 stretch for the Maroons.

As a high frequency user/poster of D3soccer.com and the boards, I'm still adjusting to the lay of the land (or lack thereof).  Maybe I'm the last to figure this out, but I've been relatively pleased to see that on the NCAA D3 site you can get a schedule with times, often with a live score, and if the latter is there you can click on the game and go right to live stats.  No links for video but once you know a game is active and can see a still inviting scoreline it's not too hard to go find the video.

Call me lazy, but I really miss d3soccer.com's live scoreboard that included links to the livestreams of games in progress.

What looks tasty on today's menu?

1:00

WPI-Babson...Babson absolutely needs a win here.  The Beavers have Conn, Amherst, trap game with Emerson, and Tufts.

Muhlenberg- Hopkins...I think Hopkins makes a much needed statement.

PS-Harrisburg-NYU...The Violets must win this one...or check into rehab...and the latter would be smart regardless.

New Paltz-Skidmore...Not knowing what to say about this one says a lot.

1:30

Middlebury-Hamilton...The Continentals have faltered under the weight of elevated expectations.  Not Midd's problem.

2:00

CMS-Chapman...Kuiper time.

Macalester-GAC...A key in-conference battle and opportunity for Macalester to vault towards some real attention.  GAC is flirting with an exit from the main stage.

Hanover-Wilmington...Both have had brutal opening schedules and the Quakers are 0-5 after near-breakout campaign in 2022.

3:00

Wash College-Dickinson...One of you make us care.

F&M-Haverford...How will the Diplomats respond to having shade thrown their way on the D3 boards?

3:45

Luther-Dominican...Luther limps into Chicago at 0-2-3 while Dominican continues to prep for trying to edge out MSOE for a NCAA AQ.  Crystal ball says...Norse 2 Stars 2.

5:00

Rose Hulman-Hope...Not a gimme for Hope after nipping Chicago.  After parking the bus for 90 minutes last night what will be the strategy today?

Calvin-Mt Union...Big jump up in class for the Purple Raiders.  Pretty sure the Purple Raiders aren't undefeated after this evening.

6:00

Vassar-Montclair St...The Brewers have another chance to validate some preseason hype.  Unfortunately, I think Montclair turns up for this one.

7:00

NC Wesleyan-Christopher Newport...Tempted to pick an upset (or at least a draw here).  The Bishops tied Hopkins and RPI but then lost to Guilford.  The Captains are almost always good to very good but not the most trustworthy.  Could win 6-0 or lose 2-1.

John Carroll-OWU...The teams and the dynamics involved set up nicely to make this tilt perhaps the best of the season thus far.  JCU has staked claim to being the new region leader but Martin got the memo, chuckled, and banked the wadded up ball of paper into the trash.  If you can only watch one game as a neutral today this is the one.  Usually pretty good video and I would expect 800-1200 at Roy Rike tonight.

St John Fisher-RIT...Upset alert. 

8:00

Ohio Northern-North Park...What in the world was ONU thinking?  3 games in 4 nights?  Against OWU, North Central, and North Park...all on the road?  Both teams should have an edge after last night's results, and I would put the over/under on cards at 8.

8:30

Wheaton (Ill)-Loras...I am on the bandwagon for a Loras resurgence.  Proud Wheaton seems to have never fully recovered from losing their coach after the 2014 national title game loss to Tufts.  Wheaton vs Loras used to be must-watch.  Check them out at the historic Rock Bowl in Dubuque.

Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 16, 2023, 09:58:40 AM
Call me lazy, but I really miss d3soccer.com's live scoreboard that included links to the livestreams of games in progress.

Agreed.  Just trying to make the best out of a bad situation.  It was the backbone/infrastructive stuff that I miss the most and that was no doubt not appreciated enough...the scoreboard, the schedule, the one-click to get national winning percentages where it would be easy to catch a hot team you've overlooked, easy access to past brackets, regional lists of teams, etc, etc.

I'm a little surprised there's been no statement about the status of the site, and apparently there has been little to no movement in terms of a transfer or sale or whatever.  Would be a shame to let all that rich data grow mold.

Messiah down 1-0 to Salisbury off a nice free kick... the first goal conceded by them this year. The Sea Gulls aren't backing down one bit.

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 16, 2023, 10:28:11 AM

3:00

Wash College-Dickinson...One of you make us care.

F&M-Haverford...How will the Diplomats respond to having shade thrown their way on the D3 boards?

3:45

Luther-Dominican...Luther limps into Chicago at 0-2-3 while Dominican continues to prep for trying to edge out MSOE for a NCAA AQ.  Crystal ball says...Norse 2 Stars 2.

5:00

Rose Hulman-Hope...Not a gimme for Hope after nipping Chicago.  After parking the bus for 90 minutes last night what will be the strategy today?

Calvin-Mt Union...Big jump up in class for the Purple Raiders.  Pretty sure the Purple Raiders aren't undefeated after this evening.

6:00

Vassar-Montclair St...The Brewers have another chance to validate some preseason hype.  Unfortunately, I think Montclair turns up for this one.

7:00

NC Wesleyan-Christopher Newport...Tempted to pick an upset (or at least a draw here).  The Bishops tied Hopkins and RPI but then lost to Guilford.  The Captains are almost always good to very good but not the most trustworthy.  Could win 6-0 or lose 2-1.

John Carroll-OWU...The teams and the dynamics involved set up nicely to make this tilt perhaps the best of the season thus far.  JCU has staked claim to being the new region leader but Martin got the memo, chuckled, and banked the wadded up ball of paper into the trash.  If you can only watch one game as a neutral today this is the one.  Usually pretty good video and I would expect 800-1200 at Roy Rike tonight.

St John Fisher-RIT...Upset alert. 

8:00

Ohio Northern-North Park...What in the world was ONU thinking?  3 games in 4 nights?  Against OWU, North Central, and North Park...all on the road?  Both teams should have an edge after last night's results, and I would put the over/under on cards at 8.

8:30

Wheaton (Ill)-Loras...I am on the bandwagon for a Loras resurgence.  Proud Wheaton seems to have never fully recovered from losing their coach after the 2014 national title game loss to Tufts.  Wheaton vs Loras used to be must-watch.  Check them out at the historic Rock Bowl in Dubuque.

As the resident F&M apologist and explainer, IF YOU CAN'T STAND THE HEAT, GET OUT OF THE KITCHEN.  They'll do fine on the meadow. (or at least I hope so). Hahaha.

Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 16, 2023, 09:58:40 AM
Call me lazy, but I really miss d3soccer.com's live scoreboard that included links to the livestreams of games in progress.

Working on that....

SC.

Is Haverford the new Williams?  Ties F&M 1-1 to go 1-0-5 on the year.

I'm looking at the stats and it has F&M leading on shots 31-3.

Rowan in the running for 2023 "Williams"  as well

I caught most of the Hopkins match and I'll post a recap over in the Mid Atlantic thread.

1-1 Draw in case folks didn't know.

Quote from: Hopkins92 on September 16, 2023, 05:54:57 PM
I caught most of the Hopkins match and I'll post a recap over in the Mid Atlantic thread.

1-1 Draw in case folks didn't know.

From what I saw on the small screen was that JHU played well and got a bit unlucky.  The Muhls goal was not great. Definitely mistakes there.

Yeah, that's a pretty fair assessment. I try to be objective... This wasn't a game where Hopkins took 20 shots and Muhles took 3 and got a result. It was more like 9-7 shots and M with 3 saves to Hop 1 (top of my head.)

Hopkins had more of the possession, BUT that's not to say they bossed this game. Muhles were compact, organized and countered in ways that... How do I say this and not be rude. More clinical and technical players would have punished Hopkins on those counters. But, really, that's kind of a chicken/egg thing. When you play a midblock press and absorb possession,  you are playing to the overall level of your team. Absolutely the right approach against Hopkins... Dare them to try and get creative in the middle and counter them on turnovers.

Heartbreaking loss for Macalester at GAC...as the Gusties get one at like 89:47.  Stats look extremely even.  Mac now 4-1-2 and I think GAC is 3-1-2.  Carleton at 6-0 takes on North Central at home tomorrow.

Results that caught my eye so far...except for some already mentioned...

PS-Harrisburg 1 NYU 0.....#10 for NYU did not play...injury? Or not?

New Paltz drubbed Skidmore 4-0.

Wilmington bested Hanover 1-0 to finally get a win. 

Messiah draws with Salisbury, and the Falcons seem to be good for one of these 1-2 times per season.

Babson overcomes a 1-0 deficit to take WPI 3-1. 

SLU squeaks by Potsdam 1-0.  What does the SLU crowd think?

Widener goes to 5-0 and Scranton wins again.

Rutgers-Camden held to a draw with Wilkes, and RUC and RUN struggling.

Western CT held to a draw by Keene St 0-0.

Kenyon barely survives Mt Aloysius 2-1.  Will say more on regional thread.

Mt Union holding strong with Calvin 0-0 in 76th min...Purple Raiders actually enjoying a decent edge in stats.

Getting popcorn ready for JCU-OWU...

As for the SLU crowd, the team currently has half the team injured. They tied Potsdam last year and were pretty good defensively and controlled most of the game today so it's hard to say until league play.

Wow, wow, wow.  Mt Union did it....1-0 over Calvin and more than held their own.  The OAC is gonna be a dogfight...and really impressed with Mt. Union's poise late.  Probably biggest win for Mt Union in at least 12-15 years.

Congrats to SC!

Will Mary Washington break the string of top 5ish teams getting blemished this weekend?  Don't be surprised if Emory gets a result...and if they don't, look for Mary Wash to be #1 in the ultra-prestigious D3 boards national poll.

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 16, 2023, 07:00:22 PM
Wow, wow, wow.  Mt Union did it....1-0 over Calvin and more than held their own.  The OAC is gonna be a dogfight...and really impressed with Mt. Union's poise late.  Probably biggest win for Mt Union in at least 12-15 years.

Congrats to SC!

1986 v Otterbein.  Last biggest win in my mind.

SC

Quote from: Kuiper on September 16, 2023, 05:00:54 PM
Is Haverford the new Williams?  Ties F&M 1-1 to go 1-0-5 on the year.

I'm looking at the stats and it has F&M leading on shots 31-3.

Maybe so, but skill wise I wouldn't put them into Williams category.  More like the "Williams of the Centennial League????" 

From what I saw definitely parked the bus mostly and thought they would counter.  They one shot on goal and one goal with about 12 min. left.  It was off a free kick that F&M could have done better with.  For F&M, lots of chances (7 shots on goal and Fords' keeper played well).  Grass definitely played a factor, but Oscar Horowitz bailed F&M out with 9 min or so left.  His 8th goal for 17 points in the first 6 games.

Grinding out another result.

Quote from: SimpleCoach on September 16, 2023, 07:16:42 PM

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 16, 2023, 07:00:22 PM
Wow, wow, wow.  Mt Union did it....1-0 over Calvin and more than held their own.  The OAC is gonna be a dogfight...and really impressed with Mt. Union's poise late.  Probably biggest win for Mt Union in at least 12-15 years.

Congrats to SC!

1986 v Otterbein.  Last biggest win in my mind.

SC

From what I saw they really outplayed Calvin and was much better in possession that I expected. In other words, there was absolutely nothing fluky about the win.

Meanwhile, JCU scores off a corner against the run of play around the 10:00 mark and of course Jaden Wright found the ball and put it in.  Ever since JCU scored the Blue Streaks have dominated possession.  And OWU is allowing Wright too many chances and should not be playing around with the ball anywhere in his area.  He is lightning quick and dynamic.  OWU also without Brooker apparently due to injury.  Let's see if OWU can get back in it.

If you tune in and see the )-0 on the screen, that's wrong.  It's 1-0 JCU.

Good game.  I think OWU is having to play at a faster pace than they want, and after a spell of possession JCU wins the ball back they look to break and have the skill and pace to wreck a defense and get repeated forays to get around and inside the box with great looks.  JCU is a very good team and Wright gives them a chance to be special.  He's complemented by a handful of skilled and dangerous offensive players like Graeca, Haffner, and Penton, and then fireplug Swann comes off the bench to stir things up.  OWU is competing hard and still in it but if JCU gets another that will be extremely deflating.

JCU 3, OWU 1...JCU was up 3-0 and OWU pulled one back off a corner pass to the 18 that the kid one-timed through traffic.  Should have had another one with a minute left.  Credit to OWU for competing to the end.  That said, JCU is definitely for real...looks like a top 5 team to me.  Very impressive.  Very professional, comprehensive performance. 

Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on September 16, 2023, 07:16:50 PM

Quote from: Kuiper on September 16, 2023, 05:00:54 PM
Is Haverford the new Williams?  Ties F&M 1-1 to go 1-0-5 on the year.

I'm looking at the stats and it has F&M leading on shots 31-3.

Maybe so, but skill wise I wouldn't put them into Williams category.  More like the "Williams of the Centennial League????" 

From what I saw definitely parked the bus mostly and thought they would counter.  They one shot on goal and one goal with about 12 min. left.  It was off a free kick that F&M could have done better with.  For F&M, lots of chances (7 shots on goal and Fords' keeper played well).  Grass definitely played a factor, but Oscar Horowitz bailed F&M out with 9 min or so left.  His 8th goal for 17 points in the first 6 games.

Grinding out another result.

I wasn't commenting on the team's quality with that post.  I was just noting the number of ties with no (or very few) losses, which is what made Williams' record so unusual last year.  Apparently, it won't be so unusual going forward in an era without OT.

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 15, 2023, 02:38:14 PM
And @calvin_grad....just noticed that you have an outstanding post/+karma ratio.

Now, be truthful... does Chris Schau have bottomless eligibility?

And how are folks enjoying the refurbished facility?

Certainly, certainly glad Calvin has had so much sustained success. The tears were just there wishing we could have broken through one of those 4 times.

Schau has missed the last 4 games. So maybe a medical redshirt is in order so he can play another year?   :P :P

I wouldn't call it a refurbished facility yet. It's a pretty non-descript generic turf field with temporary bleachers that look into a setting sun. Once the football field is built next to it and there is a whole plaza with restrooms and concessions, then I can give a better review. Other fans I have talked to feel the same. Even though it is a turf field, I do like that it is only lined for soccer, and there are not football, lacrosse, field hockey, and other lines all over it.

Ladies and gentleman, the new #1 team in the country....at least for 6 days...your Mary Washington Eagles.

At Shoemaker to take on Messiah next Saturday at 5:00.

Carleton 1 North Central 0

Massive win for Carleton, now 7-0, over one of the hottest teams in the country.

I watched most of Amherst-Tufts.  I'm sure was more enjoyable in person but tough to watch online.  The scoreline feels a little deceiving but Tufts didn't do enough to win either.  Odd choices late when still down just 2-1 on a corner and then a free kick, the latter leading to a 3rd Amherst goal from their smallish frosh sensation.  Amherst forced Tufts to play the Mammoths style.  39 fouls...20 to Tufts.  Game at least watching online seemed to have almost zero flow...just restart after restart with neither team able to possess for more than 10-15 seconds.  Bottom line this is a big, big win for Amherst. 

Wesleyan also roared back form down 1-0 to beat Brandeis in Waltham 3-1.

Bowdoin and Conn play to a 0-0 draw while Williams' supposed program meltdown was just a bit overdone as the Ephs remain undefeated after forcing Sonny Liston, I mean Bates, to tap out.

Tufts result is not surprising.  Their recruiting has fallen off a bit since the coaching change.  That also is not surprising given the comments he made about his recruiting philosophy to Simple Coach in an interview.   I said before the season started I think Amherst is odds on favorite to win the championship, too much depth and quality.

Quote from: stlawus on September 17, 2023, 06:06:27 PM
Tufts result is not surprising.  Their recruiting has fallen off a bit since the coaching change.  That also is not surprising given the comments he made about his recruiting philosophy to Simple Coach in an interview.   I said before the season started I think Amherst is odds on favorite to win the championship, too much depth and quality.

What comments did he make about recruiting?  I agree this is not a vintage Tufts team, but they still have good overall talent and still enjoy at least the fumes of a championship pedigree.  They don't seem to have the offensive firepower and dynamic midfield as in past years.  That said, while Amherst was better, they weren't a lot better, and not 3-1 better.  I'm not sure this is a vintage Amherst team either but even an average Amherst squad is a national title threat.  Having Cubbedu back is big, though.  They are a huge team per usual.  It's tough to defend 6'8 and 6'5 dudes on corners and free kicks.

He said when he recruits he only intentionally looks at MLS Next and ECNL players because that's where the better players usually are.  He said he wouldn't ignore a good player not in that pipeline, but you should be looking at good players regardless of their club situation.  In one of Jay Martin's interviews he said a lot of MLS Next players aren't good enough to play at OWU.  A lot of the greats to go through that program didn't come out of those clubs.  Of course MLS Next and ECNL have great players but if you're recruiting from there for the sake of recruiting that pipeline you're going to start limiting yourself.

I watched some of the Amherst/Tufts game and it was tough to watch.  The video could not follow the action that well and it appear to be not focus at times. The start of the 2nd half was watching the sky for 5 mins.  Besides the video the game itself had no flow to it. Lots of fouls-39 total. I felt like I was watching a field hockey game (no offense to field hockey) with the whistle constantly blowing. Amherst played their typical dump the ball in the box and let our big forwards try to outmuscle them. Tufts didn't play their possession game that I am use to seeing from them. If Pele was watching the game he would say this is not a beautiful game.

Not sure how Amherst could force Tufts to play, "their style".  It might be time for asterisks against Amherst wins so that historians looking back at results in one hundred times won't fall into the trap of assuming it was just a pretty good team.  Viva L'Amhate!

Quote from: EnmoreCat on September 17, 2023, 09:08:08 PM
Not sure how Amherst could force Tufts to play, "their style".  It might be time for asterisks against Amherst wins so that historians looking back at results in one hundred times won't fall into the trap of assuming it was just a pretty good team.  Viva L'Amhate!

I'm sorry...you took that in a way that wasn't intended.  Perhaps I should have said impose their will, or dictate the play, etc.  It was mostly a compliment as very few teams in recent years have been able to make Tufts not feel in control.  In some years a team like Messiah might be able to do the same thing...and with a completely different style.  I'm sure even in these threads you've written about a team dictating the terms of games or matches, and that's commonspeak in all sports.  Amherst has an incredible record and has been one of the very top handful of programs for a very long time.  Most of us know that and even appreciate it.

Regarding what you thought you were reacting to, of course it's easy to think that this "whole Amherst thing" is just some weird vengeness coming from one or two people.  It's not, unless you believe dozens and dozens of folks over the years -- who in general do not know each other and are affiliated with other NESCACs and numerous schools in various conferences from many regions of the country -- have conspired in some way to assault Amherst.

Back to the game, from my pov the key play was the set up to the first Amherst goal.  Ref called what appeared to be a pretty soft foul on Tufts and an Amherst player very smartly quick-kicked the free kick to a darting player who had a step on the defender who had paused for just a beat.  I couldn't see well enough to see how clear the PK call was.  But yes, the game was different from that point forward.  And as you said maybe in the other thread, this was a big game for Amherst to get.  Gonna be a lot of great games in the league, then the NESCAC tourney, and finally the big one.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you!  My previously admitted fragile sensitivities were clearly out there for the world to see, yet again.  My antennae clearly aren't sufficiently fine tuned to pick up Ammiration, begrudging or otherwise...

I don't know if this will have any relevance to anything but I do think it's an interesting topic...and please read presuming a dash of baked-in hyperbole...

Maybe this is standard around the world, but Americans by in large dislike winners...and the few times they are ecstatic about a winner is only when his or her team wins some ultimate prize.  Sometimes we hate some other teams more than we love our own.  Think about how some feel about the Dallas Cowboys or New England Patriots, Red Sox or Yankees, Lakers or Celtics, Real Madrid or FC Barcelona, Man U or Arsenal....and the common demoninator is anything that as a participant, parent, or super-fan made us feel pain...and that emotional attachment to events can make us even years later preoccupied with some perceived grievance or bad call about what happened in the Sweet 16 in the 73rd minute or whatever.  Tufts, OWU, and Calvin have all caused me some pain, and I can admit to my weak character in sharing that when any of those teams lose I amazingly don't find myself unhappy.  Just thinking about Duke makes my blood boil and every time I do my internal television shows The Shot from the 1992 East Region Final in Philadelphia.

And as I sit here 10 miles outside Boston in the heart of New England, I'm not displeased that the Patriots are down two touchdowns.

Quote from: EnmoreCat on September 17, 2023, 10:22:23 PM
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you!  My previously admitted fragile sensitivities were clearly out there for the world to see, yet again.  My antennae clearly aren't sufficiently fine tuned to pick up Ammiration, begrudging or otherwise...

I got your back!! From the Amherst of the Cent. Conf. Hahaha or should I just be super happy nobody is slagging on F&M for a page or two. Hahaha. Bring it on!!!

Quote from: stlawus on September 17, 2023, 06:47:48 PM
He said when he recruits he only intentionally looks at MLS Next and ECNL players because that's where the better players usually are.  He said he wouldn't ignore a good player not in that pipeline, but you should be looking at good players regardless of their club situation.  In one of Jay Martin's interviews he said a lot of MLS Next players aren't good enough to play at OWU.  A lot of the greats to go through that program didn't come out of those clubs.  Of course MLS Next and ECNL have great players but if you're recruiting from there for the sake of recruiting that pipeline you're going to start limiting yourself.

Limiting yourself is the point so yea.  It's down to either you believe that's where the better players are while taking the risk you miss some or a lot of them are not good enough for your program so expand your scope.  Seems to be a matter of opinion and time will tell.  And to make it more complicated the club league dynamics are constantly changing so opinions today may be irrelevant in the future.

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 17, 2023, 10:35:55 PM
I don't know if this will have any relevance to anything but I do think it's an interesting topic...and please read presuming a dash of baked-in hyperbole...

Maybe this is standard around the world, but Americans by in large dislike winners...and the few times they are ecstatic about a winner is only when his or her team wins some ultimate prize.  Sometimes we hate some other teams more than we love our own.  Think about how some feel about the Dallas Cowboys or New England Patriots, Red Sox or Yankees, Lakers or Celtics, Real Madrid or FC Barcelona, Man U or Arsenal....and the common demoninator is anything that as a participant, parent, or super-fan made us feel pain...and that emotional attachment to events can make us even years later preoccupied with some perceived grievance or bad call about what happened in the Sweet 16 in the 73rd minute or whatever.  Tufts, OWU, and Calvin have all caused me some pain, and I can admit to my weak character in sharing that when any of those teams lose I amazingly don't find myself unhappy.  Just thinking about Duke makes my blood boil and every time I do my internal television shows The Shot from the 1992 East Region Final in Philadelphia.

And as I sit here 10 miles outside Boston in the heart of New England, I'm not displeased that the Patriots are down two touchdowns.

From an Orioles, Redskins Commanders and Terps fan thanks for triggering my nightmares.  Gonna go listen to Spoon's "The Underdog" now.

I don't know much at all about this NFL stuff, but once that Brady fella comes back, the Patriots should be all right?

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 17, 2023, 10:35:55 PM
I don't know if this will have any relevance to anything but I do think it's an interesting topic...and please read presuming a dash of baked-in hyperbole...

Maybe this is standard around the world, but Americans by in large dislike winners...and the few times they are ecstatic about a winner is only when his or her team wins some ultimate prize.  Sometimes we hate some other teams more than we love our own.  Think about how some feel about the Dallas Cowboys or New England Patriots, Red Sox or Yankees, Lakers or Celtics, Real Madrid or FC Barcelona, Man U or Arsenal....and the common demoninator is anything that as a participant, parent, or super-fan made us feel pain...and that emotional attachment to events can make us even years later preoccupied with some perceived grievance or bad call about what happened in the Sweet 16 in the 73rd minute or whatever.  Tufts, OWU, and Calvin have all caused me some pain, and I can admit to my weak character in sharing that when any of those teams lose I amazingly don't find myself unhappy.  Just thinking about Duke makes my blood boil and every time I do my internal television shows The Shot from the 1992 East Region Final in Philadelphia.

And as I sit here 10 miles outside Boston in the heart of New England, I'm not displeased that the Patriots are down two touchdowns.

Thanks for this insight, Paul Newman.  As a lifetime New England sports fan...including the aforementioned Patriots, Celtics, and Red Sox...I understand and appreciate the "hating" of an annoyingly successful team.  And when our team is consistently dominating, most of us fans love to be hated!

And, although I can't pretend to speak for all posters on the lively Amherst "debate", I suspect many of us appreciate EnmoreCat's unflagging passion and devotion to the Mammoths men's soccer program.  As the father of a Bowdoin alum, I have commented on a number of occasions about Serpone and the program.  To repeat:  Serpone is generally liked by his players and many players of opposing teams.  The NESCAC coaches are divided.  Some like and appreciate him, while others are annoyed. 

But I agree with you that...with the number of posters from a wide range of perspectives...it's reasonable to objectively conclude that there are things about the program that can be annoying to the casual observer...above and beyond the record of excellence.

Thanks, northman.  You put it better and more cleanly than me.

You hit on a point I meant to mention.  Parents/fans have absolutely no commitment to avoiding hypocrisy.

In my mind, Kentucky should win the NCAA title literally every single year, and same for the Boston Celtics in the NBA.  As a kid I felt that way about the Dallas Cowboys....until the Jerry Jones era.  Sidenote:  at age 8 or 9 I had an autographed 8x10 glossy of "Bullet" Bob Hayes as a proud member of the Dallas Cowboys Fan Club.  Many may not be familiar with that name but he was a great Cowboy in the mid to late 60s, played in the great Dallas-Green Bay games along with "Dandy" Don Meredith, and prior to that won Olympic Gold in the 100 meters at the 1964 Tokyo Olympics.  The interesting thing there is that, just as I did at age 8 or 9, I STILL am under the delusion that Bob Hayes actually signed it!

At any rate, I have found myself totally annoyed with a few Tufts and Messiah posters who are gravely disappointed any year their team doesn't win the national title.  It comes across as entitlement, a birthright...but again, see above.  And no, my own hypocrisy doesn't even register on Doppler.

The door is beginning to shut on "early season," so I'll post PN's games to watch for the week here...

Tuesday, Sept 19

CWRU-Mt Union...Strong candidate for game of the day...a clash of Region VII leaders currently vying to share the penthouse suite with JCU.  More important to the Purple Raiders who will be eager to back up the huge win over Calvin.

Wartburg-UW Platteville...Sleeper candidate for game of the evening with both anxious to catch the attention of esteemed D3 boards top 25 pollsters who may be still straddling the fence on one or the other or both, or still unsure what state Wartburg lives in.

Elizabethtown-Messiah...The infamous Marshmellow tilt...protip:  get your marshmellows ahead of time and enjoy in the comfort of your own home...this one could be 4-0 after 30 minutes, and not because Etown is bad but just because.  If you're a neutral, consider skipping the match entirely and wait for the award-winning highlights package on the Messiah website.

Rowan-Washington College...The NCAA has pre-authorized OT for this one.

WPI-Amherst...Trap game for the Mammoths??? Nope.

Endicott-Middlebury...See above.  Coach Calabrese better bring Duke and Bella along for this one, but full credit for scheduling Montclair, Stevens, and Midd...all on the road.

Widener-Moravian...Look for Widener superfan, the old guy with the white hair across from the player benches.  And, btw, this is an upset alert.

Chicago-Wheaton (Ill)...The Maroons travel to Joe Bean Stadium to take on a Thunder crew dripping in excitement since winning at the Loras Rock Bowl in their last outing.  Wheaton had not won at The Rock since 1997.  One problem...when was the last time Chicago lost two in a row?

NYU-Stevens...Is that a death rattle I hear, or can the patient make a miraculous recovery?  Stevens is not exactly the opponent to pick to get well on.

Wednesday, Sept 20

Buffalo St-Brockport St...SUNYAC geographical rivals face off.  Did you know Buff St, not Brockport, is sitting at 4-0-2?

Mt Aloysius-Carnegie Mellon...Can the Mounties trouble CMU as much as they did Kenyon?  CMU cannot afford ANY slips.

Carthage-Calvin...See Chicago-Wheaton above...not the best time for the Firebirds to visit Grand Rapids.

Denison-John Carroll...Denison's first major test, and it's a doozy.  Coach Mladenovic will put his team on alert after conquering OWU and ahead of Calvin and North Park on the horizon...but human nature is human nature, and Coach Bianco is racking his brain to come up with a gameplan...he knows what a win here would mean for the Big Red and confidence going forward.

Otterbein-OWU...Both need this one to get into a better vibe.  OWU is vulnerable without a prime offensive star, and Otterbein is looking over their shoulder at Mt. Union but they're suddenly looking in the wrong direction.

New Paltz St-Oneonta St...Who says it's all about Oneonta and Cortland in the SUNYAC? Strong candidate for game of the day.

W&L-Virginia Wesleyan...As another poster already underscored, we've got a sneaky good matchup here.  The Marlins are undefeated and off to one of their better starts in years.  W&L has been sputtering and had to rally to get past Brevard.  That said, this one is still bigger for VWU as chances are W&L will be just fine in the long run.

F&M-Kean...Kean hasn't lost yet, and the Dips were held to a draw at Haverford.  This could be the best game that no neutral will watch.

Luther-St Olaf...Luther so far has been disappointing.  St Olaf is looking to continue rebounding from a tough, but explainable start.  The Oles have to be on guard, though, because this may be the Norse' last stand before submitting to palliative care. 

North Park-Wash U...Absolutely no clue what to expect here, although an agitated Vikings squad will look to get in and out of St Louis with a W as quickly as possible.  Some more tough ones await.

Several good Region X battles that our West Coast chief correspondent is already covering...Chapman-Cal Lutheran, CMS-Redlands, Occidentai-Pomona-Pitzer.

Thursday, Sept 21

Load Management

Friday, Sept 22

Christopher Newport-Santa Cruz...When they say Coast to Coast they really meant that this time.  Does CNU have to go out there again later?  Gotta be honest, the Captains always are vexing to me, and I lean towards thinking they ultimately will fall a little short.  Welp, almost every team eventually falls short, but still...

Mary Hardin-Baylor-Trinity (TX)...MHB has disappointed but I'm not sold on Trinity yet either.

Hardin-Simmons-Texas Lutheran...The Texas Lutheran juggernaut keeps on rolling.  This year's version of last year's St Thomas.  The Cowboys are about to get bucked off their horses.

Saturday/Sunday coming soon...and there are some massive ones...









 

UPSET WATCH:

Trinity (TX) is up 1-0 on D1 Incarnate Word at the half

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 18, 2023, 07:53:16 PM

Elizabethtown-Messiah...The infamous Marshmellow tilt...protip:  get your marshmellows ahead of time and enjoy in the comfort of your own home...this one could be 4-0 after 30 minutes, and not because Etown is bad but just because.  If you're a neutral, consider skipping the match entirely and wait for the award-winning highlights package on the Messiah website.

While Messiah is clearly much better, this is the ultimate trap game for them with Mary Washington on the schedule for Saturday. I give the Blue Jays a fighting chance.

Quote from: Kuiper on September 18, 2023, 09:06:46 PM
UPSET WATCH:

Trinity (TX) is up 1-0 on D1 Incarnate Word at the half

Worth noting this is not the best D1 squad (2-13-1 last season, 1-4-1 this young season).  It's also worth noting that last year's exhibition between the two was a 4-0 decision in favor of UIW.  Tonight's game apparently counts as it's not marked as an exhibition on either school's schedule.

Trinity is so far (74') doing this without Michael Meese who played 73 minutes in the disappointing tie against Hardin-Simmons on Friday night, including the entire second period.  UIW has a 13-4 shot advantage but only leads 3-2 on target. 

UIW just tied it up on a PK.  Trinity 1 -UIW 1

This is an example of a low D1 against a high D3 and a Trinity has looked very good despite giving up the PK

Final 1-1 tie

Quote from: Kuiper on September 18, 2023, 09:45:03 PM
UIW just tied it up on a PK.  Trinity 1 -UIW 1

This is an example of a low D1 against a high D3 and a Trinity has looked very good despite giving up the PK

And it's the third PK assessed in the last two games.  Very unusual. 

On RPI last year they were almost last in D1.  I would be disappointed if a very good D3 team such as Trinity didn't beat them.

Quote from: Ejay on September 18, 2023, 09:37:35 PM

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 18, 2023, 07:53:16 PM

Elizabethtown-Messiah...The infamous Marshmellow tilt...protip:  get your marshmellows ahead of time and enjoy in the comfort of your own home...this one could be 4-0 after 30 minutes, and not because Etown is bad but just because.  If you're a neutral, consider skipping the match entirely and wait for the award-winning highlights package on the Messiah website.

While Messiah is clearly much better, this is the ultimate trap game for them with Mary Washington on the schedule for Saturday. I give the Blue Jays a fighting chance.

I might agree with you but not coming off a draw with Salisbury.

I might edit the "very" bit out...

Saturday, Sept 23

JCU-Calvin...Most days this might the absolute headliner but here they'll have to settle for vying for second place among a few others.  The dynamics, though, mirror the Mary Wash-Messiah collision...a bluest of blue bloods highly motivated to yet again assert dominance against a hungry, high-rising outfit that has relished every challenge and marched through a thicket of legends.  JCU will have zero fear of Calvin but will be acutely aware of the opportunity...and that's been the Blue Streaks' recipe for success.

Denison-CWRU...What will be Denison's mindset after JCU earlier in the week?  The Big Red will either be looking to rebound with aplomb or sky-high and motivated to prove that they indeed have sauntered onto the main stage.  CWRU, meanwhile, seems to be the stealth, under-the-radar, steady-as-she-goes squad, and by extension, the Spartans aren't much moved by the ambitions and fanfare associated with more "popular" teams.  It also happens that Bianco left CWRU for Denison, whatever that means.

Centre-Oglethorpe...OK, I admit it...I'm never sure if Oglethorpe is Oglethorpe or Covenant.  They're actually not even the same state (I think).  I'm always looking for teams I can safely exclude from more serious consideration...and whenever I look the Stormy Petrels have won or drawn again against another good team.   

Christopher Newport-Colorado Coll...Those crazy Captains, traveling all over and now headed to Colorado Springs.  Somebody check their NIL deals.  And I kind of think of Colorado Coll as a poor man's version of the "Christopher Newport" of the West.  No comment allowed here that doesn't mention the word 'altitude.'

Dickinson-Muhlenberg...Two teams better than I think and that will be vying for the positive side of mid-table in the Centennial.  Are either or both better than Washington College and/or Haverford?

Mary Washington-Messiah...See above with JCU-Calvin, and just add a spice or three.  The Eagles come into Shoemaker with loads and loads of momentum...The Final Four immediately followed by mowing down high level opponents already while remaining unblemished.  Top that off with a win at Messiah, and you've got a program-altering stretch of events.  Just think about how you viewed (or didn't think about at all) Mary Washington at this same time a year ago.  What a job by Coach Kilby.  Kirkland & Berg, LLC is a problem.  And Nelsar Castillo, all 5'3 of them, is just the kind of rare playmaker who can unbalance and rattle the Falcons.  Messiah -- with its 46 page (without pictures) media/record book guide and "you call us, we don't call you" recruiting advantage -- of course relishes exactly these kind of challenges.  Factor in that the Eagles probably have had an advantage in competition level thus far and we should get a good one...maybe a really good one.

Oneonta St-Geneseo St...Geneseo made some noise, for the first weekend.  Now the draw with SLU and win over Skidmore seem like distant memories. 

Colby-Williams...If the Mules are ever gonna break the usual NESCAC patterns this would be a great time to do it.  Colby has played Williams and Amherst pretty well in the recent past, but despite a lot of questions, the Ephs seem to have picked up right where they left off with last season's marvelous run. 

Hamilton-Tufts...The Jumbos want no part of any narrative suggesting they might be a half-step below Midd, Amherst, and maybe Bowdoin and Williams (and maybe Wesleyan and Conn)...and so it's hard to imagine Tufts not turning up with a monster effort Saturday.  That said, I got a funny feeling about this one.  Hamilton has disappointed, but we know they have some very good talent and I'm tempted to mark this match with an upset alert.

Wabash-Hope...Wabash, beat Hope and then let's talk. 

Bowdoin-Middlebury...Very odd that these two don't seem to have a rivalry on par with Williams and Amherst.  I think of them as a pair, even if they don't like that (and I don't know if most alums and students do or not).  And while they are certainly on par with the other two in every meaningful other respect, they do tend to viewed culturally as the pair just a hair below the other one.  What we do we know is that the Polar Bears and Panthers are two very good teams with better than decent chances to make a big run in November.  In other words, this is another huge feature game and I expect a good one to watch.

Stevens-Rochester...Two teams in the Northeast outside of the SUNYAC and NESCAC industrial complexes with some of the best odds of non-SUNYAC/NESCAC squads of taking away one of the Final Four slots.  Why?  For starters, they've both done that...and recently too.  The Live Stats for this one should electric.

Conn Coll-Babson...Excellent out of conference battle between two upper tier New England programs, and with a very likely regional ranking win or loss at stake.  Who besides Babson is gonna end up regionally ranked in Region II?  Some teams no doubt are picking up regionally ranked wins that won't be apparent for a while.  Big game for the Camels and Beavers.

Ohio Northern-Rose Hulman...Tricky game for ONU as the Polar Bears try to come out on the other side of a brutal schedule alive. 

Scranton-Elizabethtown...D3, especially in the mid-atlantic, is better when the programs are better.  Scranton is off to a promising start and Royals fans just want them to keep picking up wins.  Hard to anticipate where Etown's mindset will be after visiting Grantham.

RPI-SLU...Very key match in the Liberty League.  The loser of this one will be hurting.  Two very well coached teams used to high levels of success.  Getting a win here could spur some momentum.

Thanks PN, your posts were great!  I had a good laugh.

"F&M-Kean...Kean hasn't lost yet, and the Dips were held to a draw at Haverford.  This could be the best game that no neutral will watch."

So on point. FYI, F&M's furthest trip of the season, but going to the team's roster center (about 15 NJ, NY and Conn players). Should be a great game so anyone watching should have a good time.

Go in person if you can, video feed does not show F&M bench "antics" well enough. Will be properly entertained and/or outraged, I promise.

Oglethorpe and Covenant are both in Georgia, although Covenant barely is, maybe a thousand feet from the Tennessee state line in the famous (to Civil War buffs, anyway) locale of Lookout Mountain. It's only 2 miles from downtown Chattanooga actually, and closer to Nashville than Atlanta. Oglethorpe is in Brookhaven, a suburb on the north side of the Atlanta metro.

Oglethorpe is a secular liberal arts/sciences university while Covenant is a Presbyterian church college.

thanks! was thinking Midwest for some reason.

Quote from: Caz Bombers on September 19, 2023, 09:17:31 AM
Oglethorpe and Covenant are both in Georgia, although Covenant barely is, maybe a thousand feet from the Tennessee state line in the famous (to Civil War buffs, anyway) locale of Lookout Mountain. It's only 2 miles from downtown Chattanooga actually, and closer to Nashville than Atlanta. Oglethorpe is in Brookhaven, a suburb on the north side of the Atlanta metro.

Oglethorpe is a secular liberal arts/sciences university while Covenant is a Presbyterian church college.

Just going to add to this that Covenant 's campus, perched on a bluff of lookout mountain, has some of the most amazing views from a campus I've seen east of the Rockies.

Quote from: Caz Bombers on September 19, 2023, 09:17:31 AM
Oglethorpe and Covenant are both in Georgia, although Covenant barely is, maybe a thousand feet from the Tennessee state line in the famous (to Civil War buffs, anyway) locale of Lookout Mountain. It's only 2 miles from downtown Chattanooga actually, and closer to Nashville than Atlanta. Oglethorpe is in Brookhaven, a suburb on the north side of the Atlanta metro.
Oglethorpe is a secular liberal arts/sciences university while Covenant is a Presbyterian church college.

Thanks for this...my confusion makes sense. Now I'm thinking there may be a Lookout Mtn, GA AND a Lookout Mtn, TN reflecting that the same area bleeds into both states.  I'm more familiar with the TN version...because of the aforementioned Roscoe Tanner and my freshman year girlfriend.  Heart of Bluegrass country.

And by Bluegrass I obviously mean music as we all know that the only actual blue grass in the United States lives in Kentucky.

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 19, 2023, 10:41:49 AM

Quote from: Caz Bombers on September 19, 2023, 09:17:31 AM
Oglethorpe and Covenant are both in Georgia, although Covenant barely is, maybe a thousand feet from the Tennessee state line in the famous (to Civil War buffs, anyway) locale of Lookout Mountain. It's only 2 miles from downtown Chattanooga actually, and closer to Nashville than Atlanta. Oglethorpe is in Brookhaven, a suburb on the north side of the Atlanta metro.
Oglethorpe is a secular liberal arts/sciences university while Covenant is a Presbyterian church college.

Thanks for this...my confusion makes sense. Now I'm thinking there may be a Lookout Mtn, GA AND a Lookout Mtn, TN reflecting that the same area bleeds into both states.  I'm more familiar with the TN version...because of the aforementioned Roscoe Tanner and my freshman year girlfriend.  Heart of Bluegrass country.

And by Bluegrass I obviously mean music as we all know that the only actual blue grass in the United States lives in Kentucky.

It is the same part of the Cumberland Plateau. The peak is in GA, just miles from both the TN and AL state lines. The plateau itself stretches from TN into GA and down through AL. The Battle of Chickamauga (Civil War) was fought near the peak and around the area in GA. Lookout Mountain, however, is best known for attractions near Chattanooga, including Rock City, Ruby Falls, and the Incline Railway that takes you to the battle site. But only 3 miles of the plateau are in TN. 30+ miles are in GA, and 50+ miles are in AL, ending down near Noccalula Falls in Gadsden AL.

^^^^Excellent...thanks.

Sunday, Sept 24


Colby-Amherst...Colby indeed beat Middlebury in Waterville in 2021 and knocked Amherst out of the 2021 NESCAC tourney in PKs (I think at Amherst).  Last year in 2022 Colby had a week of three consecutive draws with Williams, Amherst, and Tufts, in the tie-fest season that culminated with a Mules record of 4-7-7.  Over/under on this one being 0-0 at the half? Fwiw, I'm pretty sure Colby is my favorite NESCAC other than possibly fellow Maine entrant, Bowdoin.  Gotta love the Maine schools.

Hamilton-Wesleyan...Big weekend for the Cardinals as Wesleyan needs to get wins over Trinity and the Continentals if they hope to have a shot at closing stronger than they did last year after a very promising start.  Hamilton will be coming off 90 minutes in Medford and needs to pick up results wherever they can get them. 

Sewanee-Emory...Sewanee so far has been unable to bridge momentum from last season into this one.  I was the only pollster wise enough to sneak Emory into the back end of the top 25 last week.  The Eagles see a chance to land in the top three or so in the UAA, and a loss or even a draw here would be a setback.  I was impressed with the 1-0 loss to Mary Washington...or least my near-term confidence was not shaken.

Hardin-Simmons-St Thomas (TX)...Cowboy up, only to Cowboy down.  St Thomas isn't ready for an off day...at least not yet.

Southwestern-Mary Hardin Baylor...Battling for 4th place in Texas isn't the worst thing...since it's big 'ol Texas. 

Loras-Dominican...The Stars of Dominican were one of the premier "mid-majors" in D3 well before St Joe's of Maine, Western Connecticut, or UWEC.  Loras had appeared to be on an upswing, sparking memories of past glory, but taking it on the chin with Wheaton was not good.  This is not a gimme for the Duhawks as Dominican and conference-mate MSOE can play some futbol.

Bates-Middlebury...In recent years Midd was good for dropping one of these games against the bottom end of the NESCAC (while I nod that the bottom end of NESCAC often is as good or better than the top half of some other major conferences) or versus a far weaker non-conference foe.  But this is the year Midd is confidently hoping will be magical.  I'm a believer...for now. 

Bowdoin-Williams...Game of the day.  This weekend should give us a strong hint about whether either of these teams are overrated.  I've watched snippets of Williams and Diffley looks as sharp as he was in last year's tourney run.  Is top GK in NESCAC down to Grady and Diffley?  Can Juantorena disrupt any offensive forays by the Ephs...and also supply a little magic on the other end?  Just like with having a Grady or Diffley, it's got to feel comforting for Bowdoin fans to see Juantorena on the pitch.  Or will the match be decided by a Huckster?  Cries to make sure you pay attention to a #35 somehow don't sound right.  But then there's #48, Michael Meese, at Trinity (TX), and no school has high impact players with more unusual numbers than North Park.

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 19, 2023, 12:56:42 PM
Sunday, Sept 24


Colby-Amherst...Colby indeed beat Middlebury in Waterville in 2021 and knocked Amherst out of the 2021 NESCAC tourney in PKs (I think at Amherst).  Last year in 2022 Colby had a week of three consecutive draws with Williams, Amherst, and Tufts, in the tie-fest season that culminated with a Mules record of 4-7-7.  Over/under on this one being 0-0 at the half? Fwiw, I'm pretty sure Colby is my favorite NESCAC other than possibly fellow Maine entrant, Bowdoin.  Gotta love the Maine schools.

Hamilton-Wesleyan...Big weekend for the Cardinals as Wesleyan needs to get wins over Trinity and the Continentals if they hope to have a shot at closing stronger than they did last year after a very promising start.  Hamilton will be coming off 90 minutes in Medford and needs to pick up results wherever they can get them. 

Sewanee-Emory...Sewanee so far has been unable to bridge momentum from last season into this one.  I was the only pollster wise enough to sneak Emory into the back end of the top 25 last week.  The Eagles see a chance to land in the top three or so in the UAA, and a loss or even a draw here would be a setback.  I was impressed with the 1-0 loss to Mary Washington...or least my near-term confidence was not shaken.

Hardin-Simmons-St Thomas (TX)...Cowboy up, only to Cowboy down.  St Thomas isn't ready for an off day...at least not yet.

Southwestern-Mary Hardin Baylor...Battling for 4th place in Texas isn't the worst thing...since it's big 'ol Texas. 

Loras-Dominican...The Stars of Dominican were one of the premier "mid-majors" in D3 well before St Joe's of Maine, Western Connecticut, or UWEC.  Loras had appeared to be on an upswing, sparking memories of past glory, but taking it on the chin with Wheaton was not good.  This is not a gimme for the Duhawks as Dominican and conference-mate MSOE can play some futbol.

Bates-Middlebury...In recent years Midd was good for dropping one of these games against the bottom end of the NESCAC (while I nod that the bottom end of NESCAC often is as good or better than the top half of some other major conferences) or versus a far weaker non-conference foe.  But this is the year Midd is confidently hoping will be magical.  I'm a believer...for now. 

Bowdoin-Williams...Game of the day.  This weekend should give us a strong hint about whether either of these teams are overrated.  I've watched snippets of Williams and Diffley looks as sharp as he was in last year's tourney run.  Is top GK in NESCAC down to Grady and Diffley?  Can Juantorena disrupt any offensive forays by the Ephs...and also supply a little magic on the other end?  Just like with having a Grady or Diffley, it's got to feel comforting for Bowdoin fans to see Juantorena on the pitch.  Or will the match be decided by a Huckster?  Cries to make sure you pay attention to a #35 somehow don't sound right.  But then there's #48, Michael Meese, at Trinity (TX), and no school has high impact players with more unusual numbers than North Park.

May be a bit biased but can't discount Peter Silvester in the top GK conversation....

^^^^^I knew the NESCAC GK reference would reverberate for some, including possibly the kinfolks of the two mentioned.

In any case, the good news for Silvester is that his name and heroics have been forever etched into D3 lore..."saving" the Camels to take the 2021 NCAA crown for Conn's first national title in any sport ever.

Quote from: jknezek on September 19, 2023, 11:29:27 AM

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 19, 2023, 10:41:49 AM

Quote from: Caz Bombers on September 19, 2023, 09:17:31 AM
Oglethorpe and Covenant are both in Georgia, although Covenant barely is, maybe a thousand feet from the Tennessee state line in the famous (to Civil War buffs, anyway) locale of Lookout Mountain. It's only 2 miles from downtown Chattanooga actually, and closer to Nashville than Atlanta. Oglethorpe is in Brookhaven, a suburb on the north side of the Atlanta metro.
Oglethorpe is a secular liberal arts/sciences university while Covenant is a Presbyterian church college.

Thanks for this...my confusion makes sense. Now I'm thinking there may be a Lookout Mtn, GA AND a Lookout Mtn, TN reflecting that the same area bleeds into both states.  I'm more familiar with the TN version...because of the aforementioned Roscoe Tanner and my freshman year girlfriend.  Heart of Bluegrass country.

And by Bluegrass I obviously mean music as we all know that the only actual blue grass in the United States lives in Kentucky.

It is the same part of the Cumberland Plateau. The peak is in GA, just miles from both the TN and AL state lines. The plateau itself stretches from TN into GA and down through AL. The Battle of Chickamauga (Civil War) was fought near the peak and around the area in GA. Lookout Mountain, however, is best known for attractions near Chattanooga, including Rock City, Ruby Falls, and the Incline Railway that takes you to the battle site. But only 3 miles of the plateau are in TN. 30+ miles are in GA, and 50+ miles are in AL, ending down near Noccalula Falls in Gadsden AL.

Ah! I knew something was floating around in my brain. My gramma lived in Atlanta and she took me to Rock City, et. al when I was pretty young.

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 18, 2023, 07:53:16 PM

Widener-Moravian...Look for Widener superfan, the old guy with the white hair across from the player benches.  And, btw, this is an upset alert

Ha!

Mount Union scores with 18 seconds left to beat Case 2-1 and no posts from Simple Coach?  He must be out celebrating!  Big win for the Purple Raiders!

Quote from: Kuiper on September 19, 2023, 09:40:15 PM
Mount Union scores with 18 seconds left to beat Case 2-1 and no posts from Simple Coach?  He must be out celebrating!  Big win for the Purple Raiders!

That was absolutely brutal for CWRU.  I watched the last 10-12 minutes and the Spartans appeared to be having their way...and then boom, something that looked relatively harmless as the seconds ticked suddenly turned dangerous.  Exhilirating and important win for Mt Union to confirm Calvin wasn't just a fluke. 

I thought the UW-Platteville versus Wartburg might have a similar outcome.  Again, the Pioneers mostly had Wartburg pinned in and had even more clean chances than I saw with CWRU, including what looked like might be a tap-in.  The Knights had a few breaks off the counter but didn't get a lot done when in UW-Platteville territory.

Big picture most of the projected heavy favorites and mild favorites prevailed but not in an impressive fashion that some of us and I'm sure team fans expected.  The exception was Chicago, who, coming off a maddening loss, blitzed a Wheaton Thunder side that had just handled Loras.  Wash Coll avoids a tie and gets a very solid win over Rowan.  NYU and Stevens battle to a draw.  The NYU star, for whatever reason, has not featured at all in the last two NYU matches.

Quote from: Kuiper on September 19, 2023, 09:40:15 PM
Mount Union scores with 18 seconds left to beat Case 2-1 and no posts from Simple Coach?  He must be out celebrating!  Big win for the Purple Raiders!

I anguished over my Top 25 on whether to include.  Opted not to because not sure they have "earned" it.  This may be different. 

Am super pumped.  They defend very very well.  Disciplined.  The attack is opportunistic but effective...

SC.

Carthage 4, Calvin 2. Defense was some of the worst I have seen. Everything was way too easy for Carthage. The Knights need to get their act together soon.

Quote from: calvin_grad on September 20, 2023, 07:01:19 PM
Carthage 4, Calvin 2. Defense was some of the worst I have seen. Everything was way too easy for Carthage. The Knights need to get their act together soon.

Totally disappointed.  Had high hopes for them.

SC.

W&L v. VA Wesleyan  Did not see the first half, but VA has been shelling W&L the second half. Many good opportunities for VA. W&L had only in the last 15 min and scored a nice goal.  6 min left and W&L up 1-0

Don't know if W&L is just flat or this is their new normal. Or maybe VA Wesleyan is legit.  FYI, this their first ODAC game.  So game means even more.

JHU got their goal.

Final score W&L 1 - 0 VA Wesleyan.

I thought VW had some talented players.  Fortunately for W&L they struggled to get the ball in the net despite some very dangerous chances.

I don't know what's going on with W&L. I am disappointed in their continual giving the ball away and failing to win 50-50 balls. I don't think it's a lack of talent,  I think it's a lack of "try". Which, to me, is the worst thing a team/player can be. I don't care if you win or lose as long as you've given it your all and done your best. So, even though my team won, I am pretty disappointed in them.

ETA the camera operator was the worst I've  come across too. Literally didn't follow the ball half the time. Most of the scoring opportunities went unseen because the camera  was trained on the opposite side of the field . . .

Hahaha, I think camera guy was the announcer or just a work study kid. Really, really bad. At least he got the W&L goal.

Yeah, I think W&L's coach is probably in fits right now. He is probably seeing a lot of potential, but nothing seems to work right now which you could say has been the case for most of the season so far. Sometimes, though you play badly all game, you can get that goal. They were very, very fortunate, but a wins a win.

That Christopher Newport game is really going to be looming if they continue to do what they are doing. They might have to sweep if they don't win the ODAC to go to the NCAAs.  Fortunately, there is a lot of soccer left. All the ODAC teams will definitely be gunning for W&L.

I think it is time for the W&L discussion to be taken to a regional or conference specific thread, as they don't look to be the team they have been - and probably not representing a side that is part of the national perspective...

Ooooh, mean! It takes only 7 games to be relegated??

Not mean, pragmatic. They have had a wonderful past few years, lost several players - and will simply have to build back.  They have a great coaching staff - and all the makings pf a program that can and will come back.  However, they aren't at a level where they can/will sustain year over year- some of that due to the high academic setting which makes recruitment a narrower road for them. No harm meant - but I think the reality of what their year will yield.

I watched almost all of Denison vs John Carroll and what a fascinating contest.  Denison ended up winning 2-1 after scoring two late goals (the second a JCU own goal) 61 seconds apart.  The Big Red had trailed almost the entire game, and while Denison certainly looked like belonged out there, JCU was pummeling Denison and should have been ahead by 2 and probably 3 goals.  JCU has a cadre of offensive threats that all can really hit a ball and score anywhere inside 30 yards.  They had a bevy of clean chances inside the 18.  At any rate, I marveling at how good JCU was(is) and was thinking Denison just needs a few games like this one at that level and then might be truly competitive.  JCU appeared to start time wasting with 8 min left, and then after Denison scored, and especially the own goal to take the lead, JCU looked like a different team and could not turn things around.  They had been moving through Denison's defense into the box area repeatedly, but suddenly could not come close.  Maybe this will be good for JCU as a possible Achilles heel is getting too confident and then imploding a bit in adverse situations.  I'm mindful that they have Calvin next, who lost today to the surprising Firebirds, and I wonder how long its been since Calvin lost 2 in a row, much less 3 in a row.  At any rate, if JCU is going to make the FInal Four or win the title they're gonna have to figure how to resist getting chippy and losing focus.  Their talent is amazing, and the weird thing is the whole time Denison could not handle them   JCU looked so intentional and surgical with what they were doing.  As for Denison, Bianco and the players will not care one single bit that JCU dominated most of the game.  Huge win for the Big Red...the only top NCAC team to edge JCU this year.

One apology...While sharing some of his literary forays along with a little shade,  I realized tonight that Gianluca DiGiacomo who often does the website recaps is also the play by play guy on their broadcasts.  I've listened to him multiple times and both he and his color man are excellent....and you wouldn't necessarily think that he is the same person.  Comments and even the credit thrown Denison's way were spot on.  He actually had expressed some nervousness when JCU had great chance after great chance without getting a second.  A draw seemed conceivable.  It was inconceivable watching the first 82-83 minutes that Denison would win.  And I guess I'm asking if Denison might have something JCU doesn't have to the same degree...something in their mentality.

Btw, while i agree with some of Generallyinterested observations about W&L losing a lot and being down a little, I don't think they belong off the national stage.  Why else was this considered such a huge, possibly breakthrough match for VWU?  I think of W&L, Hopkins, Kenyon, and St Olaf as all teams that have struggled to some degree but are far from dead yet.  And of course W&L WON the game...a game that had some hype around it on the road.

St Olaf btw beat Luther by a touchdown and extra point.

North Park still has not gotten out of its funk, but the Vikings did manage to pull off a road win down at Francis Olympic Field in the Gateway City, 3-2, on a late tally by Josse Blindheim off of an asleep-at-the-switch throw-in coverage mistake by Wash U that was the kind of thing that the quick-tossing Bears themselves usually pull off on a distracted opponent.

A bit of the luster was gone from what is typically an annual battle between two programs that have designs upon getting deep into November. Neither NPU nor Wash U is playing anywhere near their standards right now. Wash U simply does not have the same level of personnel it's had in recent years, although the three Bears who impressed me the most today were all freshmen off of the bench. And, of course, NPU is really young (and plays like it), but the Vikings also don't really have the All-American-caliber players like Peder Olsen, Gustav Ericsson, and Angel Barriga that they've had in the recent past. It's a team of (potentially) very good players rather than great players.

I think Washington University has the talent to be 6-0-0 today (with a decent schedule) but the Bears keep snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. 

I think they were the better team in every game they have played, but they continue to shoot themselves in the foot. 

The Bears were so out of position on that third goal, it beggars belief.  That after defending so well for the rest of the game.

The first North Park tally was scored after a long throw by the GK to the Bears defender who was seriously 20-25 feet up field and surrounded by Vikings.  The ball ricocheted off his shins to a Viking forward who had numbers.  Terrible decision making.

I think the Bears need to settle on a starting keeper and go with it for the rest of the season, but what do I know?

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 20, 2023, 10:04:46 PMBtw, while i agree with some of Generallyinterested observations about W&L losing a lot and being down a little, I don't think they belong off the national stage.  Why else was this considered such a huge, possibly breakthrough match for VWU?  I think of W&L, Hopkins, Kenyon, and St Olaf as all teams that have struggled to some degree but are far from dead yet.  And of course W&L WON the game...a game that had some hype around it on the road.

Why was this was considered a breakthrough match for VWU?  Based on polls at least weren't they the favorites?  Staying in the ODAC I watched Lynchburg dismantle a decent Hampden Sydney team tonight.  Not sure about the qualifications for a national stage but seems like they should earn a spot.

A couple of games of possible national interest in the SCIAC tonight

Occidental 5 - Pomona-Pitzer 3

This is a game that really typifies Oxy.  They score 3 goals in the first 22 minutes and are dominating Pomona-Pitzer with a swarming attack.  Then, a few minutes after the third goal, they give up a goal to P-P.  Still, they are up 3-1.  P-P lost to Cal Tech 1-0, who lost to Oxy 8-0, so no problem, right?  Coach probably yells at them a little at halftime to not turn off like that and they come out with renewed vigor at halftime and score a fourth goal in the 63rd minute.  So, they're up 4-1 and figure they can cruise.  Turn off again and promptly give up a second goal to P-P four minutes later.  Then, P-P scores another goal in the 76th minute and it's a ball game at 4-3.  Things are tight again until Oxy puts them away in the 85th minute with their fifth goal to win 5-3.  I don't know what it is, but it's hard to put a lot of faith in Oxy as a championship contender when they turn it on and off so easily.  On the one hand, they have a lot of firepower.  On the other hand, they have an off switch during games.  It isn't because the coach brings in a lot of subs and the quality drops either.  If anything, he doesn't trust his bench enough and may be running his favorites into the ground.  Either way, Oxy is 5-1 and 2-0 in the SCIAC, but it needs to be more consistent both in games and from game to game.  I will have a lot more belief in them if they can beat Redlands away on Saturday.

Redlands 2 - Claremont-Mudd-Scripps 1

CMS was up 1-0 deep into the second half and let this game slip away.  For most of the game, CMS' passing game was on point and Redlands was chasing a lot of ghosts.  Then, Redlands turned up the press and scored two goals within 6 minutes of each other (in the 71st and the 77th minutes) to win the game.  Redlands moves to 6-0 and 2-0 in the SCIAC.  They play Occidental on Saturday at home in a key game among teams in the regional rankings out west.  CMS drops to 2-2-2 and 0-2-1 in SCIAC play.

Quote from: GenerallyInterested on September 20, 2023, 09:08:41 PM
Not mean, pragmatic. They have had a wonderful past few years, lost several players - and will simply have to build back.  They have a great coaching staff - and all the makings pf a program that can and will come back.  However, they aren't at a level where they can/will sustain year over year- some of that due to the high academic setting which makes recruitment a narrower road for them. No harm meant - but I think the reality of what their year will yield.

While I agree W&L doesn't look like it did the past couple of years, I will push back a little. They've made the NCAA tournament for the last 7 years. And their high academic recruiting shouldn't be a bar. It's an issue shared by basically all of the NESCAC, the UAA, and some other schools like Vassar, Haverford,  Swarthmore etc.

As I wrote earlier,  I do not think W&L's issues stem from a lack of talent. They have players still on the team who were stars last year but who are having a harder time this year (and IMHO it's a team psychology issue).

Quote from: Freddyfud on September 21, 2023, 12:34:45 AM

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 20, 2023, 10:04:46 PMBtw, while i agree with some of Generallyinterested observations about W&L losing a lot and being down a little, I don't think they belong off the national stage.  Why else was this considered such a huge, possibly breakthrough match for VWU?  I think of W&L, Hopkins, Kenyon, and St Olaf as all teams that have struggled to some degree but are far from dead yet.  And of course W&L WON the game...a game that had some hype around it on the road.

Why was this was considered a breakthrough match for VWU?  Based on polls at least weren't they the favorites?  Staying in the ODAC I watched Lynchburg dismantle a decent Hampden Sydney team tonight.  Not sure about the qualifications for a national stage but seems like they should earn a spot.

A few things...

1) It pains me that anyone is paying attention at all to USC rankings where posters try to figure out and rationalize how they came up with whatever they came up with.  There is nothing to figure out.  It's a very poorly done and highly distorted deal.

2)  Lynchburg has been on the national stage for a long time, as have W&L, Emory, CNU, and now Mary Wash.  Apologies if I missed one or two.  What Lynchburg needs is a poster or two who cares to post about the Hornets. 

3)  Are you suggesting that you didn't consider W&L the favorite?  Or that if VWU had won that wouldn't have been considered big?  I had to keep checking to see who actually won the game, and when Sierra posted that VWU was shelling W&L definitely seemed like he was trying to basically post an upset alert.  So yes, W&L was the favorite...by some distance...and I would guess they'd win 8 or at least 7 times out of 10 with a couple of the others being draws.  I realize you may vote "neither" but out of the two which team is more likely to make the NCAA tourney and do some damage...W&L, or VWU?  Just the last two seasons for W&L...Final Four, Sweet 16.

4)  I have absolutely nothing against GenerallyInterested, and I hope him or her keep posting...but are you f*&&ing kidding me?  You have three posts and two are directed at Another Mom and W&L.  Takes some hutzpah to register literally 10 days ago, post ONE time, and then play traffic cop directing where posters should post their posts.  And like I said, I think most would agree with your observations except for the tone of suggesting the season's lost.  Is Calvin off the national stage?  Hopkins?  St Olaf?  If Messiah loses two in a row, are they done?  North Park?  Like what is the cutoff threshold for being mentioned or discussed in the National thread?

5)  We're getting into the heart of the season and honestly the activity level here overall is tepid at best.  We need more posting rather than less. 

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 20, 2023, 10:04:46 PM
I wonder how long its been since Calvin lost 2 in a row, much less 3 in a row.

2014 for 2 losses in a row, 2013 for 3.

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 21, 2023, 08:03:26 AM

Quote from: Freddyfud on September 21, 2023, 12:34:45 AM

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 20, 2023, 10:04:46 PMBtw, while i agree with some of Generallyinterested observations about W&L losing a lot and being down a little, I don't think they belong off the national stage.  Why else was this considered such a huge, possibly breakthrough match for VWU?  I think of W&L, Hopkins, Kenyon, and St Olaf as all teams that have struggled to some degree but are far from dead yet.  And of course W&L WON the game...a game that had some hype around it on the road.

Why was this was considered a breakthrough match for VWU?  Based on polls at least weren't they the favorites?  Staying in the ODAC I watched Lynchburg dismantle a decent Hampden Sydney team tonight.  Not sure about the qualifications for a national stage but seems like they should earn a spot.

A few things...

1) It pains me that anyone is paying attention at all to USC rankings where posters try to figure out and rationalize how they came up with whatever they came up with.  There is nothing to figure out.  It's a very poorly done and highly distorted deal.

2)  Lynchburg has been on the national stage for a long time, as have W&L, Emory, CNU, and now Mary Wash.  Apologies if I missed one or two.  What Lynchburg needs is a poster or two who cares to post about the Hornets. 

3)  Are you suggesting that you didn't consider W&L the favorite?  Or that if VWU had won that wouldn't have been considered big?  I had to keep checking to see who actually won the game, and when Sierra posted that VWU was shelling W&L definitely seemed like he was trying to basically post an upset alert.  So yes, W&L was the favorite...by some distance...and I would guess they'd win 8 or at least 7 times out of 10 with a couple of the others being draws.  I realize you may vote "neither" but out of the two which team is more likely to make the NCAA tourney and do some damage...W&L, or VWU?  Just the last two seasons for W&L...Final Four, Sweet 16.

4)  I have absolutely nothing against GenerallyInterested, and I hope him or her keep posting...but are you f*&&ing kidding me?  You have three posts and two are directed at Another Mom and W&L.  Takes some hutzpah to register literally 10 days ago, post ONE time, and then play traffic cop directing where posters should post their posts.  And like I said, I think most would agree with your observations except for the tone of suggesting the season's lost.  Is Calvin off the national stage?  Hopkins?  St Olaf?  If Messiah loses two in a row, are they done?  North Park?  Like what is the cutoff threshold for being mentioned or discussed in the National thread?

5)  We're getting into the heart of the season and honestly the activity level here overall is tepid at best.  We need more posting rather than less.

PN - very fair argument, and as someone that has read and watched this far longer than I have posted  - I definitely agree with point 5 - not much action or excitement on here this season - maybe that reality was a catalyst for my comment.   :)  Parity in D3 soccer seems to raise every year - which means that teams will encounter losses, and we should not always simply expect the usual suspects come tourney time.......Thanks for your comments back - hoping that we can elevate the debate through the season!!  Love this game, and love those that are passionate about it!

Can't believe I only just came across this National Perspectives thread, I thought the whole world revolved around NESCAC.

 :) :)

Thanks for your response.  I would just add that I think programs that have had very consistent success for 8-10 years need to prove over a longer period of time that the program has dipped.  I personally don't see that with W&L.  I don't necessarily agree with Another Mom about the issue being "want to," and they did lose players like Smith and Bass who are among the best to ever play for W&L.  But they do still have talent and one of the best coaches in D3.  I'd also caution that a few teams that started poorly and basically got written off recovered and made the NCAA tourney.  OWU was a prime example...starting something like 0-4-2 and then barely losing in the 2nd round to eventual Final Four squad Mary Wash.

Quote from: EnmoreCat on September 21, 2023, 09:11:46 AM
Can't believe I only just came across this National Perspectives thread, I thought the whole world revolved around NESCAC.

You are a piece of work  ;)

The NESCAC basically dominates both threads...but at least those LL boys have quieted down lol.

Like you PN, I read everything, including LL (but maybe speed read through that).

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 21, 2023, 09:14:43 AM
Thanks for your response.  I would just add that I think programs that have had very consistent success for 8-10 years need to prove over a longer period of time that the program has dipped.  I personally don't see that with W&L.  I don't necessarily agree with Another Mom about the issue being "want to," and they did lose players like Smith and Bass who are among the best to ever play for W&L.  But they do still have talent and one of the best coaches in D3.  I'd also caution that a few teams that started poorly and basically got written off recovered and made the NCAA tourney.  OWU was a prime example...starting something like 0-4-2 and then barely losing in the 2nd round to eventual Final Four squad Mary Wash.

Fair point - i think the long view is critical - and telling of programs.......AnotherMom - I hope we are still friends, and PN - Ill make sure to balance my short term need for excitement on the boards with a longer view.......Saying that - It would be great to see more posters engaging on behalf of their programs - would love the insight.....and the heightened debate!

We are definitely friends! Question: is your username wildly coincidental to W&L, or do you have a connection to the school/team?

I'm happy to share insights; the team still has Agbeyegbe, the ODAC Rookie of the year, and a high scorer in past seasons. And McCarty, who has great soccer IQ. Adler was hugely effective last year.  PJ Ryan is a 3 year starter, with accolades, etc, so although losing especially Kutsanzira as well as Bass and Smith is tough, as I say I still believe there's a lot of talent still on the roster. Plus a couple of the 1st years are making a mark, including Kaba, who scored last night's goal.

Putting this here because didn't want to take the new poll off the page..

I wanted to comment on perceptions of that entity that hardly ever gets a mention...NESCAC.  In years past (think like 5-6+ years ago and earlier,) NESCAC fans often complained (and in hindsight with some good reason) that their teams were underrated in terms of polls, awards, etc.  I wonder if we're swinging a little too far in the other direction...six in the board poll with a 7th next in line in RV (Colby).  Poor Wesleyan...how come the Cardinals have been left out, which could get the number up to eight?

On another note, I find the customer base here interesting.  Most schools don't have anyone posting about them or on their behalf.  And those that do are usually limited to one or two who post regularly and "hang out" on the site a ton.  So when any of us are "the one" how did that come to be?  It's actually a tiny, tiny percentage of parents of teams and fans/alums who post here.  I assume many lurk without registering.  And it's so weird to see names online literally almost all day and night with no posts or very infrequently.  What are we all doing?  Hitting refresh over and over to see if there's a new post in a thread?  Obviously, I'm not criticizing, I mean how could I, but the dynamics of the self-selection process of who are here a lot are GenerallyInteresting to me haha.  There definitely is an intense addictive aspect (at least for me).

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 21, 2023, 11:34:26 AM

On another note, I find the customer base here interesting.  Most schools don't have anyone posting about them or on their behalf.  And those that do are usually limited to one or two who post regularly and "hang out" on the site a ton.  So when any of us are "the one" how did that come to be?  It's actually a tiny, tiny percentage of parents of teams and fans/alums who post here.  I assume many lurk without registering.  And it's so weird to see names online literally almost all day and night with no posts or very infrequently.  What are we all doing?  Hitting refresh over and over to see if there's a new post in a thread?  Obviously, I'm not criticizing, I mean how could I, but the dynamics of the self-selection process of who are here a lot are GenerallyInteresting to me haha.  There definitely is an intense addictive aspect (at least for me).

I think, like most message boards, it's a bit intimidating. Maybe I'm a parent so I follow my kid's team, and maybe know a little bit about the conference. But how does that stack up to this conversation? Not real well. You could be a parent of an AMCC team, or a NAC team, maybe CUNYAC and, honestly, you realize that no one talks about those schools until the playoffs role around and we briefly mention how we think the champion is a sacrificial lamb. Well, 90% of D3 teams get little or no airtime on these boards except the occasional sacrificial lamb comment because they are, essentially, irrelevant. Even in the CC, a solid top to bottom conference, if you are a parent of half or more of the teams, what is there to say?

I am somewhat surprised we don't get more parents from the consistently quality teams, or recent grads. But message boards are... old school. I'm not sure how many people search for them or really care. You keep in touch with your community, the parents, your fellow alums, on Twitter (uggh, X) or maybe Facebook, but do you really want to come on here and get into the discussion? Very few do.

Now do they sometimes watch the discussion? Sure. I suspect lots peak in when their team, or their kid's team, is doing well. Just to see what's being said. But feeling like you have something to add takes 1) some serious self-confidence (sometimes arrogance) or 2) an axe to grind a bit. I think one of my very first posts, if not my first, which was on the football boards, was monumentally stupid and Pat Coleman quite rightly called me on it.

These boards, especially football, have been shrinking since I joined 15 years ago. Posters leave and are hardly ever replaced. I thank Pat Coleman for keeping the lights on. He may not visit these soccer boards much, but he's very active in football and basketball (maybe other areas, but I don't visit those real often). He's been great for D3 and I hope that somehow we can find a way to reinvigorate this community.

I kind of wondered if taking up a fund to do some advertising on D3 school athletic websites might help for the whole D3sports.com family. Clearly too late for D3soccer.com, which hasn't been a true part of that family for a while, but I feel like something needs to be done.

So, yeah, interesting discussion.

Personal aside... I'm watching TV with The Wife last night and at some point I pop open the laptop to check on the Hopkins game. I skip-watch the game and then see it out live for the last 10... Still watching the show, but kind of spot checking the game. As soon as it ends, I hop over here and write a very brief summary (while she was on a bio break, mind you.) She comes back and says "oh boy, this again?" And, yeah, this again... I fully commit to this being a hobby of mine.

But, yeah, it's a pretty niche thing, to cover a D3 team and/or the conference or region they are in. I wouldn't expect this place to be flooded with posters. With that said, I wish more of the lurkers would come out. Especially parents* who have interesting insight that they could share without getting into hot water with info advantageous to their opponents.

* - I've had a handful of parents who don't really post much write me private messages either of appreciation or with insight that they can share but don't want out on these boards, which of course I respect.

Thanks for that.

So it's either narcissism or vengeance, and in the worst cases both lol.

One example closer to you...Another Mom is the most frequent W&L poster.  Last year a couple of parents from the team contacted me and had some back and forth via private messaging if that's what they call it and some emailing.  I can assure you they did not lack in confidence (nor did they impress as narcissists I should add)...and one of them put together a post before W&L played Kenyon that analyzed the entire Kenyon starting 11 with detail and insight I could never approximate.  And Another Mom strikes me as neither a narcissist or vengeful.  She just happens to have a very soft spot for Amherst which drives me insane!  Other involved folks like yourself, Hopkins, Sierra, and even the great SC don't strike me as narcissists either.

And yes, I wonder why the high profile teams don't have more posting.  For starters, you would think almost every NESCAC would have a dozen or more...same for W&L, Kenyon, Calvin, North Park, Chicago (Maroons have a few), F&M, Montclair, Oneonta, etc, etc

Quote from: Hopkins92 on September 21, 2023, 12:24:54 PM

* - I've had a handful of parents who don't really post much write me private messages either of appreciation or with insight that they can share but don't want out on these boards, which of course I respect.

Same.

I get a sense that in addition to the "don't provide the enemy intel," there is a confidence/intimidation thing going on.

With that said, this place used to have some pretty cantankerous exchanges and some personal conflagrations that... hoo boy... really turned me off from posting/participating.

Thankfully, most of that heat has dissipated. Even the "debate" around Amherst has settled into an "agree to disagree" tone that is at worst a civil discussion at this point. I also think the tone and atmosphere here doesn't really put up or allow for people to get nasty or to extend a heated discussion for too long. And people tend to try and be respectful of other perspectives.

I know I was coming on here slagging on F&M in my early days. I wouldn't say I've changed my tune 100 percent, but I certainly have more context for the program and an appreciation over the years of their consistent success.

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 21, 2023, 12:25:48 PM
Thanks for that.

So it's either narcissism or vengeance, and in the worst cases both lol.

One example closer to you...Another Mom is the most frequent W&L poster.  Last year a couple of parents from the team contacted me and had some back and forth via private messaging if that's what they call it and some emailing.  I can assure you they did not lack in confidence...and one of them put together a post before W&L played Kenyon that analyzed the entire Kenyon starting 11 with detail and insight I could never approximate.  And Another Mom strikes me as neither a narcissist or vengeful.  She just happens to have a very soft spot for Amherst which drives me insane!  Other involved folks like yourself, Hopkins, Sierra, and even the great SC don't strike me as narcissists either.

And yes, I wonder why the high profile teams don't have more posting.  For starters, you would think almost every NESCAC would have a dozen or more...same for W&L, Kenyon, Calvin, North Park, Chicago (Maroons have a few), F&M, Montclair, Oneonta, etc, etc

Just for the first post. There has to be something that drives people to put themselves out in, what can be, an awkward way. After that it either becomes something of an addiction or you just don't do it again. Yes, I get emails also. I've been the lone consistent W&L poster on the football boards since I started. Sometimes someone comes on for a season or two, and then goes away again. Usually a parent. But no one has really stuck, and once the athlete graduates they all disappear to the next thing in life. As for soccer, Another Mom has way more insight into W&L than I have ever had, so I'm happy she is carrying the flag. Hopefully someone will join her and the chain can be carried forward in a few years.

Another Mom -- any thoughts on a parent of a first year you can badger for the future?????? Just kidding, sort of.

One of the reason I'm not voting this year is I simply have too much going on to do the research. I'm happy you guys are putting in the time, and it's easy enough for me to put together the results, but I have neither the time nor desire to watch and consider Gustavus Adolphus vs St. Thomas (Tx). I've kept my eye on W&L, watched parts of two games, and read the posts just to keep my hand in. That's enough for me.

Quote from: Another Mom on September 21, 2023, 09:52:32 AM
We are definitely friends! Question: is your username wildly coincidental to W&L, or do you have a connection to the school/team?

I'm happy to share insights; the team still has Agbeyegbe, the ODAC Rookie of the year, and a high scorer in past seasons. And McCarty, who has great soccer IQ. Adler was hugely effective last year.  PJ Ryan is a 3 year starter, with accolades, etc, so although losing especially Kutsanzira as well as Bass and Smith is tough, as I say I still believe there's a lot of talent still on the roster. Plus a couple of the 1st years are making a mark, including Kaba, who scored last night's goal.

Fwiw, I personally would rank Smith and Bass above Kutsanzira in terms of impact of the loss.  Same with Kenyon...you can't expect a handful of 3 and 4 year starters who have won conference midfielder of year or offensive poy, etc, to just hit the ground running with no adjustment period.

Quote from: Hopkins92 on September 21, 2023, 12:32:31 PM
I get a sense that in addition to the "don't provide the enemy intel," there is a confidence/intimidation thing going on.

With that said, this place used to have some pretty cantankerous exchanges and some personal conflagrations that... hoo boy... really turned me off from posting/participating.

Thankfully, most of that heat has dissipated. Even the "debate" around Amherst has settled into an "agree to disagree" tone that is at worst a civil discussion at this point. I also think the tone and atmosphere here doesn't really put up or allow for people to get nasty or to extend a heated discussion for too long. And people tend to try and be respectful of other perspectives.

I know I was coming on here slagging on F&M in my early days. I wouldn't say I've changed my tune 100 percent, but I certainly have more context for the program and an appreciation over the years of their consistent success.

100%...and since I got caught up in or maybe even sparked some cantankerous exchanges, I am proof that maturity can still increase after age 55 (OK, after 60...boy that is hard to write because I feel like I'm 11).  As one example which honestly did make a difference for me....deciding that I could embrace and even like Sager, and once that kicked in, he also was far more generous with me.

Quote from: Hopkins92 on September 21, 2023, 12:24:54 PM
So, yeah, interesting discussion.

Personal aside... I'm watching TV with The Wife last night and at some point I pop open the laptop to check on the Hopkins game. I skip-watch the game and then see it out live for the last 10... Still watching the show, but kind of spot checking the game. As soon as it ends, I hop over here and write a very brief summary (while she was on a bio break, mind you.) She comes back and says "oh boy, this again?" And, yeah, this again... I fully commit to this being a hobby of mine.

But, yeah, it's a pretty niche thing, to cover a D3 team and/or the conference or region they are in. I wouldn't expect this place to be flooded with posters. With that said, I wish more of the lurkers would come out. Especially parents* who have interesting insight that they could share without getting into hot water with info advantageous to their opponents.

* - I've had a handful of parents who don't really post much write me private messages either of appreciation or with insight that they can share but don't want out on these boards, which of course I respect.

I've had private messages as well with respect to my posts about schools out West.  I think there are two interesting aspects of people sending private messages rather than posting:

1.  The site is set up to favor long-time or very frequent posters.  You can't applaud/smite (what's up with "smite," by the way?  Sounds pretty extreme if we're just talking about disagree over something) unless you've reached a certain number of posts.  So, the only way you can simply encourage continued posting or register appreciation, is to write thanks in a post, which most people think isn't much of a contribution, or to do a private message, which I, for one, appreciate because I don't really know if ANYBODY reads my posts, but doesn't register much as activity on the board for frequent lurkers. 

2.  In my experience, many new posters are either new to D3 (because their kid just committed or started playing) or have kids considering playing in D3 and they are trying to learn more.  In neither case do the parents have a lot of strong opinions or takes to share on the board and very little information or perspective to share about other schools (e.g., if you are new to D3, you may have heard of some really well-known academic schools, but you probably have no idea which schools are traditional powers and you've probably never heard of the vast majority of schools unless you live in the general vicinity).  This is even a bigger issue in a place like the West Coast where there are very few D3 schools in the general vicinity.  My guess is very, very few schools, coaches, or parents, let alone players on the West Coast are aware that this board exists.  In fact, on the West Coast, it's only a small subset of parents or students who are aware that small liberal arts colleges in the Midwest, Mid-Atlantic, and Northeast exist.  And even among that small subset, they basically all know about the same few schools, they have no idea what "NESCAC" is, and most think D3 means rec soccer in college (like the Hollywood finance guy who said to me he really didn't want his kid, who was mediocre at best, to play soccer seriously in college - "I just want him to go play at a place like Amherst.").  For these new posters, the threads are great for information, but it's a one-way street.

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 21, 2023, 12:44:25 PM
100%...and since I got caught up in or maybe even sparked some cantankerous exchanges, I am proof that maturity can still increase after age 55 (OK, after 60...boy that is hard to write because I feel like I'm 11).  As one example which honestly did make a difference for me....deciding that I could embrace and even like Sager, and once that kicked in, he also was far more generous with me.

I guess I'm like vinegar on fries. You hate the very thought of it, and can't understand how anyone else could like it, until you wake up one day and suddenly realize that you're too old for ketchup. ;)

Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 21, 2023, 01:19:04 PM

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 21, 2023, 12:44:25 PM
100%...and since I got caught up in or maybe even sparked some cantankerous exchanges, I am proof that maturity can still increase after age 55 (OK, after 60...boy that is hard to write because I feel like I'm 11).  As one example which honestly did make a difference for me....deciding that I could embrace and even like Sager, and once that kicked in, he also was far more generous with me.

I guess I'm like vinegar on fries. You hate the very thought of it, and can't understand how anyone else could like it, until you wake up one day and suddenly realize that you're too old for ketchup. ;)

Oh man... them's fighting words to any Brits on here. And I love vinegar on fries, but I'll be darned if I can drink warm beer. Though to be fair, I don't much care for cold beer either.

Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 21, 2023, 01:19:04 PM

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 21, 2023, 12:44:25 PM
100%...and since I got caught up in or maybe even sparked some cantankerous exchanges, I am proof that maturity can still increase after age 55 (OK, after 60...boy that is hard to write because I feel like I'm 11).  As one example which honestly did make a difference for me....deciding that I could embrace and even like Sager, and once that kicked in, he also was far more generous with me.

I guess I'm like vinegar on fries. You hate the very thought of it, and can't understand how anyone else could like it, until you wake up one day and suddenly realize that you're too old for ketchup. ;)

I would take a bullet for you, Mr. Sager.  Love ya.

Quote from: Kuiper on September 21, 2023, 01:17:34 PM

Quote from: Hopkins92 on September 21, 2023, 12:24:54 PM
So, yeah, interesting discussion.

Personal aside... I'm watching TV with The Wife last night and at some point I pop open the laptop to check on the Hopkins game. I skip-watch the game and then see it out live for the last 10... Still watching the show, but kind of spot checking the game. As soon as it ends, I hop over here and write a very brief summary (while she was on a bio break, mind you.) She comes back and says "oh boy, this again?" And, yeah, this again... I fully commit to this being a hobby of mine.

But, yeah, it's a pretty niche thing, to cover a D3 team and/or the conference or region they are in. I wouldn't expect this place to be flooded with posters. With that said, I wish more of the lurkers would come out. Especially parents* who have interesting insight that they could share without getting into hot water with info advantageous to their opponents.

* - I've had a handful of parents who don't really post much write me private messages either of appreciation or with insight that they can share but don't want out on these boards, which of course I respect.

I've had private messages as well with respect to my posts about schools out West.  I think there are two interesting aspects of people sending private messages rather than posting:

1.  The site is set up to favor long-time or very frequent posters.  You can't applaud/smite (what's up with "smite," by the way?  Sounds pretty extreme if we're just talking about disagree over something) unless you've reached a certain number of posts.  So, the only way you can simply encourage continued posting or register appreciation, is to write thanks in a post, which most people think isn't much of a contribution, or to do a private message, which I, for one, appreciate because I don't really know if ANYBODY reads my posts, but doesn't register much as activity on the board for frequent lurkers. 

2.  In my experience, many new posters are either new to D3 (because their kid just committed or started playing) or have kids considering playing in D3 and they are trying to learn more.  In neither case do the parents have a lot of strong opinions or takes to share on the board and very little information or perspective to share about other schools (e.g., if you are new to D3, you may have heard of some really well-known academic schools, but you probably have no idea which schools are traditional powers and you've probably never heard of the vast majority of schools unless you live in the general vicinity).  This is even a bigger issue in a place like the West Coast where there are very few D3 schools in the general vicinity.  My guess is very, very few schools, coaches, or parents, let alone players on the West Coast are aware that this board exists.  In fact, on the West Coast, it's only a small subset of parents or students who are aware that small liberal arts colleges in the Midwest, Mid-Atlantic, and Northeast exist.  And even among that small subset, they basically all know about the same few schools, they have no idea what "NESCAC" is, and most think D3 means rec soccer in college (like the Hollywood finance guy who said to me he really didn't want his kid, who was mediocre at best, to play soccer seriously in college - "I just want him to go play at a place like Amherst.").  For these new posters, the threads are great for information, but it's a one-way street.

It wasn't until I moved to Maine from the West Coast when I was 44 that I ever heard of the term NESCAC. Which is funny because I:
1. Grew up in Maine and went to college in Mass
2. Have been married to a NESCAC grad since 1995

NESCACism is very provincial...

Quote from: Kuiper on September 21, 2023, 01:17:34 PM
I've had private messages as well with respect to my posts about schools out West.  I think there are two interesting aspects of people sending private messages rather than posting:

1.  The site is set up to favor long-time or very frequent posters.  You can't applaud/smite (what's up with "smite," by the way?  Sounds pretty extreme if we're just talking about disagree over something) unless you've reached a certain number of posts.  So, the only way you can simply encourage continued posting or register appreciation, is to write thanks in a post, which most people think isn't much of a contribution, or to do a private message, which I, for one, appreciate because I don't really know if ANYBODY reads my posts, but doesn't register much as activity on the board for frequent lurkers.

True. And the threshold for apportioning karma to a post (applauding or smiting) is 200 posts, which may not sound like much to the board's old hands but is an insurmountably huge number for those who aren't looking to go all-in and become a regular poster.

And I agree 100% about appreciating private messages from lurkers, although almost all of the PMs I receive (other than poll notices from jknezek) are related to the basketball and football spaces on d3boards.com. Lurkers, if you want to thank me or to have at me with brickbats and cudgels, don't hesitate to PM me!

Quote from: Kuiper on September 21, 2023, 01:17:34 PM2.  In my experience, many new posters are either new to D3 (because their kid just committed or started playing) or have kids considering playing in D3 and they are trying to learn more.  In neither case do the parents have a lot of strong opinions or takes to share on the board and very little information or perspective to share about other schools (e.g., if you are new to D3, you may have heard of some really well-known academic schools, but you probably have no idea which schools are traditional powers and you've probably never heard of the vast majority of schools unless you live in the general vicinity).  This is even a bigger issue in a place like the West Coast where there are very few D3 schools in the general vicinity.  My guess is very, very few schools, coaches, or parents, let alone players on the West Coast are aware that this board exists.  In fact, on the West Coast, it's only a small subset of parents or students who are aware that small liberal arts colleges in the Midwest, Mid-Atlantic, and Northeast exist.  And even among that small subset, they basically all know about the same few schools, they have no idea what "NESCAC" is, and most think D3 means rec soccer in college (like the Hollywood finance guy who said to me he really didn't want his kid, who was mediocre at best, to play soccer seriously in college - "I just want him to go play at a place like Amherst.").  For these new posters, the threads are great for information, but it's a one-way street.

Vey true as well. I don't think it's just a West Coast thing, either. This is strictly anecdotal on my part, so take it for what it's worth, but my conversations with fans of midwestern D3 programs that have made some noise on the national level (Wheaton, Chicago, St. Olaf, Luther, a few others, as well as my own alma mater) is that the awareness that there's even a d3boards.com section that includes D3 men's soccer message boards is very low. A huge percentage of what I'd consider to be pretty dedicated fans don't even know that d3boards.com exists. And those who are aware of it tend to skew older, demographically speaking.

The one D3 men's soccer program that I've noticed really had a significant following of younger posters was Loras, back when Dan Rothert was still coaching there and the Duhawks were an annual national force. I called those posters "the Katzenjammer Kids," because, while they knew soccer well enough to bandy about whether it was wise for Rothert to use one of his CBs as a sweeper, they seemed to be more interested in talking smack than in talking shop. But even before Rothert resigned on the eve of the Covid outbreak those Loras guys had all moved on and stopped posting.

I'm not a frequent poster, and admittedly am Bowdoin and NESCAC-centric...but I have to say that I truly appreciate the culture, sense of humor, and dedication among the most frequent posters on this board.

One of the advantages of being in the same hemisphere, if only for a few weeks, plus being on holiday, is the chance to review things here in semi-real time.  I can assure you this is a lot better than seeing a sea of "new" in the morning and trying get through work emails faster to check out what has happened in much more important theatres, like D3.  That of course means that I am more active also...

If I had never ever been exposed to the wonderful world of D3 then I can only imagine the Lord of the Flies type anti-Amherst frenzy in here, but equally, I get that people feel that way.  However, being Australian means I am unlikely to back down either, on the keyboard at least.

The one thing I have discovered on this trip is that lots and lots of people read these boards and for some strange reason, pay attention to what we say.  These same people are happy to "read only", in most cases, but certainly in terms of the Mammoths nation, more than a few have told me they like me taking up the online cudgel.

I will say that I have had the very good fortune to physically meet a few opposition NESCAC parents who are regulars in here, as well as correspond offline with several others from other conferences and it's always good to get someone else's perspective on things.  So, please, keep it coming.  I think for the most part our sons have had/are having what is best described as the time of their lives.  Ultimately, that's what it's all about. 

Quote from: EnmoreCat on September 21, 2023, 02:06:43 PM
One of the advantages of being in the same hemisphere, if only for a few weeks, plus being on holiday, is the chance to review things here in semi-real time.  I can assure you this is a lot better than seeing a sea of "new" in the morning and trying get through work emails faster to check out what has happened in much more important theatres, like D3.  That of course means that I am more active also...

If I had never ever been exposed to the wonderful world of D3 then I can only imagine the Lord of the Flies type anti-Amherst frenzy in here, but equally, I get that people feel that way.  However, being Australian means I am unlikely to back down either, on the keyboard at least.

The one thing I have discovered on this trip is that lots and lots of people read these boards and for some strange reason, pay attention to what we say.  These same people are happy to "read only", in most cases, but certainly in terms of the Mammoths nation, more than a few have told me they like me taking up the online cudgel.

I will say that I have had the very good fortune to physically meet a few opposition NESCAC parents who are regulars in here, as well as correspond offline with several others from other conferences and it's always good to get someone else's perspective on things.  So, please, keep it coming.  I think for the most part our sons have had/are having what is best described as the time of their lives.  Ultimately, that's what it's all about.

Sounds like you're almost saying Amherst WANTS detractors and haters as part of its identity?  Which creates another layer of exclusivity?

I used to help some kids with their college search from our very middling public high school in Massachusetts.  One really smart but quiet kid from a barely middle class background in the end was trying to decide between Rochester and Holy Cross.  I was disappointed that he was gonna pick Holy Cross and the irony the next year is that my daughter chose Rochester over NYU, Bryn Mawr, and Macalester.  Then I was disappointed again because i wanted her to pick Macalester.  NYU imo is just ridiculously expensive and obviously a very different kind of college experience.  Anyway, maybe 6-8 weeks went by and I got a call from the kid in the middle of the school day that he had been accepted off the waitlist at Amherst.  Him, his family, and the entire school was ecstatic, and as far as I know he did quite well there.  Certainly some of the excitement was about the unquestioned excellence but there's also just the symbolism...IF you've been in the chase for elite liberal arts colleges or have some reason to know about that.  What I've allowed myself to start learning in the past handful of years about NESCAC/Ivy is that yes, these are wonderful, gorgeous schools, but average to above average schools can be just fine and in fact are fine.  What a relief it must be for some to go to a dinner party and when the parents go around asking what colleges their kids attend as kind of social acceptability test they very proudly and zero hesitation answer that their kid chose a SUNYAC or NJAC or went to Hanover (Mike Pence) or Maryville.  I am envious of that level of freedom from some cultural crap that perhaps has outlived its time.

I think Maine Soccer Fan nailed it.  I told the story once (and maybe 10 times) about being 15 miles from Gambier in my rental, going thru a drive-thru, and asking the kid which direction for Kenyon.  He basically said "what's a kenyon?"  And even most people in Massachusetts don't know about Williams or Amherst and certainly aren't enamored (or intimidated) by the social/cultural reverberations of schools in that category.

Akin to the Ivy League, NESCAC is a pretty limited cultural phenomenon that within its own circle thinks of itself as, and in some ways is, a bastion of excellence.  It's a blue blood kind of thing with a good number of children of alums.  I'm sure the networking within that circle is strong and powerful...pretty consistent with the idea of "northeastern elites."  I regret that it's only been in the last handful of years that I've tried to challenge my own elitism.  I was as gung ho as anybody, and I couldn't wait to take my kids of big college trip tours and interviews...

This is what happens when I take a sick day....space available for an overactive mind.

I'm now remembering why I was so ambivalent and used to defend Amherst.  Had zero to with soccer and everything to do with my love and fascination toward the brilliant (which doesn't close to doing justice) tragic figure named David Foster Wallace...one of the most brilliant writers of the past 50 or more years.  He also was a highly rated regionally ranked tennis player who played tennis at Amherst.  His father was a professor of philosophy at Amherst. Further, around that time I came across what is considered one of the greatest commencement speeches ever...that DFW gave at...Kenyon.  I can never hate Amherst because of DFW.  Just google David Foster Wallace and Kenyon.  The speech turned into a famous little book called someting like "water is water."

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 21, 2023, 02:37:42 PM
I used to help some kids with their college search from our very middling public high school in Massachusetts.  One really smart but quiet kid from a barely middle class background in the end was trying to decide between Rochester and Holy Cross.  I was disappointed that he was gonna pick Holy Cross and the irony the next year is that my daughter chose Rochester over NYU, Bryn Mawr, and Macalester.  Then I was disappointed again because i wanted her to pick Macalester.  NYU imo is just ridiculously expensive and obviously a very different kind of college experience.  Anyway, maybe 6-8 weeks went by and I got a call from the kid in the middle of the school day that he had been accepted off the wait list at Amherst.  Him, his family, and the entire school was ecstatic, and as far as I know he did quite well there.  Certainly some of the excitement was about the unquestioned excellence but there's also just the symbolism...IF you've been in the chase for elite liberal arts colleges or have some reason to know about that.  What I've allowed myself to start learning in the past handful of years about NESCAC/Ivy is that yes, these are wonderful, gorgeous schools, but average to above average schools can be just fine and in fact are fine.  What a relief it must be for some to go to a dinner party and when the parents go around asking what colleges their kids attend as kind of social acceptability test they very proudly and zero hesitation answer that their kid chose a SUNYAC or NJAC or went to Hanover (Mike Pence) or Maryville.  I am envious of that level of freedom from some cultural crap that perhaps has outlived its time.

I appreciate the sentiment, but I come from a FGLI background and I'll be honest, I will do a lot to prepare my kid to compete for an elite university admission.  Not because the classroom experience will be better (it will not!), but because of everything else about the experience and name on the resume that will help with the job search.

Quote from: WUPHF on September 21, 2023, 03:37:17 PM

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 21, 2023, 02:37:42 PM
I used to help some kids with their college search from our very middling public high school in Massachusetts.  One really smart but quiet kid from a barely middle class background in the end was trying to decide between Rochester and Holy Cross.  I was disappointed that he was gonna pick Holy Cross and the irony the next year is that my daughter chose Rochester over NYU, Bryn Mawr, and Macalester.  Then I was disappointed again because i wanted her to pick Macalester.  NYU imo is just ridiculously expensive and obviously a very different kind of college experience.  Anyway, maybe 6-8 weeks went by and I got a call from the kid in the middle of the school day that he had been accepted off the wait list at Amherst.  Him, his family, and the entire school was ecstatic, and as far as I know he did quite well there.  Certainly some of the excitement was about the unquestioned excellence but there's also just the symbolism...IF you've been in the chase for elite liberal arts colleges or have some reason to know about that.  What I've allowed myself to start learning in the past handful of years about NESCAC/Ivy is that yes, these are wonderful, gorgeous schools, but average to above average schools can be just fine and in fact are fine.  What a relief it must be for some to go to a dinner party and when the parents go around asking what colleges their kids attend as kind of social acceptability test they very proudly and zero hesitation answer that their kid chose a SUNYAC or NJAC or went to Hanover (Mike Pence) or Maryville.  I am envious of that level of freedom from some cultural crap that perhaps has outlived its time.

I appreciate the sentiment, but I come from a FGLI background and I'll be honest, I will do a lot to prepare my kid to compete for an elite university admission.  Not because the classroom experience will be better (it will not!), but because of everything else about the experience and name on the resume that will help with the job search.

I get it.  And schools advertise the hell out of persons like you, similar to extolling their improving records with persons of color.   

My parents both went to Transy.  Both grew up in the Eastern KY mountains (Appalachia).  My father, a surgeon, tried to talk me into going to Woodberry Forest in Orange, VA.  My end choices were Davidson and W&L.  Then I continued the culture that my father made possible for me with my kids.  Once you earn, or someone before you earned, privilege, why would anyone not take advantage of that?  So the hard truth is that I would do something very, very similar to what I did before with my kids if I could do it all over again.

And I told myself I wasn't gonna post today!

Quote from: WUPHF on September 21, 2023, 03:37:17 PM

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 21, 2023, 02:37:42 PM
I used to help some kids with their college search from our very middling public high school in Massachusetts.  One really smart but quiet kid from a barely middle class background in the end was trying to decide between Rochester and Holy Cross.  I was disappointed that he was gonna pick Holy Cross and the irony the next year is that my daughter chose Rochester over NYU, Bryn Mawr, and Macalester.  Then I was disappointed again because i wanted her to pick Macalester.  NYU imo is just ridiculously expensive and obviously a very different kind of college experience.  Anyway, maybe 6-8 weeks went by and I got a call from the kid in the middle of the school day that he had been accepted off the wait list at Amherst.  Him, his family, and the entire school was ecstatic, and as far as I know he did quite well there.  Certainly some of the excitement was about the unquestioned excellence but there's also just the symbolism...IF you've been in the chase for elite liberal arts colleges or have some reason to know about that.  What I've allowed myself to start learning in the past handful of years about NESCAC/Ivy is that yes, these are wonderful, gorgeous schools, but average to above average schools can be just fine and in fact are fine.  What a relief it must be for some to go to a dinner party and when the parents go around asking what colleges their kids attend as kind of social acceptability test they very proudly and zero hesitation answer that their kid chose a SUNYAC or NJAC or went to Hanover (Mike Pence) or Maryville.  I am envious of that level of freedom from some cultural crap that perhaps has outlived its time.

I appreciate the sentiment, but I come from a FGLI background and I'll be honest, I will do a lot to prepare my kid to compete for an elite university admission.  Not because the classroom experience will be better (it will not!), but because of everything else about the experience and name on the resume that will help with the job search.

This.

One of the most unforgettable conversations I had in my twenties was with the valedictorian of my high-school class, whom I bumped into at a New Year's Eve party when I was home in upstate NY visiting my parents for the holidays five years out of high school. My high school was the largest in upstate NY, with a student population of around four thousand, so to be the valedictorian of a class of about a thousand students was a very big deal. He went to Harvard on a full ride.

He and I grew up on the same street and were in all of the same honors classes, and thus we were friends despite the huge size of our graduating class. So we were talking at this party, and out of the blue he asked, "So, how did you like North Park?" He only knew of the school's existence because I had gone there. I told him how much of a transformative and positive experience it had been for me after really hating high school, and then I asked in turn, "So, how was Harvard?" And he looked me in the eye and said -- I'll never forget this -- "Well, it was fine, but I'll bet that you got a better education than I did."

He was a very earnest type, not the kind of guy to kid around. Nevertheless, I exclaimed, "Are you kidding me? I got a better education than I would've gotten at Harvard? Look, I didn't go to a school like [name of a SUNY school that I won't repeat here out of fear of needlessly creating enemies], but North Park is no Harvard!"

He replied, "How big is North Park?"

"About 1,200 students."

"And I'll bet that you never had a class taught by a teaching assistant."

"No, I didn't. Just profs." (I'm dating myself here, because this was in the days before non-tenured "gypsy" adjunct instructors became a fixture at just about every level of higher education.)

"Your average class size was ... what?"

"About fifteen students or so."

"And you knew your professors, right? I mean, well enough to be on a first-name basis with them, or maybe you even socialized with them. True?"

"True."

He then explained to me that he hadn't taken a class taught by an actual professor until the end of his sophomore year, that no professor ever learned his name (much less socialized with him), and that a fair number of his classes had really large numbers of students. And, he added, you learned pretty quickly at Harvard that, despite the whole "best and brightest" propaganda that the Ivy League churns out, there's a fair number of students there whose superlatives were more along the lines of "richest and most well-connected." In other words, he was fully aware that the actual circumstances involving one's academic experience often don't line up with the common perception thereof.

He than quickly added that, despite this, he would not have traded his Harvard education for anything, because of what WUPHF pointed out -- the school's name on the résumé -- as well as the connections he made. And those things paid off for him, as he was awarded a full Bausch & Lomb scholarship to the University of Rochester's School of Medicine and Dentistry (motto: "Our bedside manner doesn't require a paywall") and has since had a long career as an oncologist in Texas. All of which goes to show that perceptiveness is at least as useful as book smarts in going through life.

Great story, Greg.  Thanks for sharing it.

And since you are from upstate NY, how did you in fact end up at North Park?

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 21, 2023, 03:50:27 PM
And I told myself I wasn't gonna post today!

By the way, I appreciate the work you do for high school kids.

And, Macalester was definitely the best option of those you listed.

Keep posting!

Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 21, 2023, 04:27:09 PM
"No, I didn't. Just profs." (I'm dating myself here, because this was in the days before non-tenured "gypsy" adjunct instructors became a fixture at just about every level of higher education.)

"Your average class size was ... what?"

"About fifteen students or so."

"And you knew your professors, right? I mean, well enough to be on a first-name basis with them, or maybe you even socialized with them. True?"

"True."

One of the more interesting, but dirty secrets about the big, research universities such as Harvard is that they can brag about the great student to faculty ratio because there are so many employees with a faculty rank, including physicians who never teach except the occasional lecture or seminar.  It can be worse at the state universities.

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 19, 2023, 12:56:42 PM
Sunday, Sept 24

Bowdoin-Williams...Game of the day.  This weekend should give us a strong hint about whether either of these teams are overrated.  I've watched snippets of Williams and Diffley looks as sharp as he was in last year's tourney run.  Is top GK in NESCAC down to Grady and Diffley?  Can Juantorena disrupt any offensive forays by the Ephs...and also supply a little magic on the other end?  Just like with having a Grady or Diffley, it's got to feel comforting for Bowdoin fans to see Juantorena on the pitch.  Or will the match be decided by a Huckster?  Cries to make sure you pay attention to a #35 somehow don't sound right.  But then there's #48, Michael Meese, at Trinity (TX), and no school has high impact players with more unusual numbers than North Park.

I've been meaning to respond to this but work travel got in the way. 

Beginning last night, Bowdoin plays four games in eight days, including a challenging weekend of road games against Midd and Williams (rated #5 and #3 on Massey).  Forecast calls for cool temps and rain both days.  Midd has turf but Cole Field at Williams will be a mud pit for Sunday (it is a NESCAC double header weekend, with Williams hosting Colby in the rain on Saturday).

Bowdoin had a solid non-conference win last night, defeating Southern Maine 5-1. Goals will be much harder to come by this weekend.  Since fall 2019 when the current 5th year seniors started (Braver, Juantorena and Selig), Bowdoin hasn't defeated either Midd or Williams, although there have been several ties (including an intense double OT tie with Midd in 2019, when ties weren't so much of a thing).  Both games should be typical, NESCAC physical battles, with the added unpredictable impact of rain.

Huck is a very special player and easy to spot w/ his #35.  Definitely worth streaming to watch him play if you aren't already tuning in Sunday for the mud pit soccer. 

The student newspaper ran a nice profile on him recently.

https://bowdoinorient.com/2023/09/01/polar-bear-of-the-week-tyler-huck-26/

Quote from: WUPHF on September 21, 2023, 05:06:04 PM

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 21, 2023, 03:50:27 PM
And I told myself I wasn't gonna post today!

By the way, I appreciate the work you do for high school kids.

And, Macalester was definitely the best option of those you listed.

Keep posting!

Thank you.  Nice to hear that from someone who has been here a long time.

One addition for me....and I am sure there are a ton of examples like this across the country...

When you grow up in Appalachia, Transylvania is Harvard. 

It's a constant battle because success punctures one's naivete about what else is out there and maybe beyond your grasp, and then what's beyond your grasp becomes your measuring stick if you allow it to do so.  Because of his background and his exposure to "the finer things in life," my Dad spent a fair amount of time pursuing what would be "good enough."  So after med school at Cincinnati, he went after and got a residency in surgery at UNC whose hospital I was born in.  He would still lament from time to time that he was "only" a community surgeon for an area about 45 minutes from Chapel Hill/Duke...and not in academic medicine.

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 21, 2023, 08:03:26 AM

Quote from: Freddyfud on September 21, 2023, 12:34:45 AM

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 20, 2023, 10:04:46 PMBtw, while i agree with some of Generallyinterested observations about W&L losing a lot and being down a little, I don't think they belong off the national stage.  Why else was this considered such a huge, possibly breakthrough match for VWU?  I think of W&L, Hopkins, Kenyon, and St Olaf as all teams that have struggled to some degree but are far from dead yet.  And of course W&L WON the game...a game that had some hype around it on the road.

Why was this was considered a breakthrough match for VWU?  Based on polls at least weren't they the favorites?  Staying in the ODAC I watched Lynchburg dismantle a decent Hampden Sydney team tonight.  Not sure about the qualifications for a national stage but seems like they should earn a spot.

A few things...

1) It pains me that anyone is paying attention at all to USC rankings where posters try to figure out and rationalize how they came up with whatever they came up with.  There is nothing to figure out.  It's a very poorly done and highly distorted deal.

2)  Lynchburg has been on the national stage for a long time, as have W&L, Emory, CNU, and now Mary Wash.  Apologies if I missed one or two.  What Lynchburg needs is a poster or two who cares to post about the Hornets. 

3)  Are you suggesting that you didn't consider W&L the favorite?  Or that if VWU had won that wouldn't have been considered big?  I had to keep checking to see who actually won the game, and when Sierra posted that VWU was shelling W&L definitely seemed like he was trying to basically post an upset alert.  So yes, W&L was the favorite...by some distance...and I would guess they'd win 8 or at least 7 times out of 10 with a couple of the others being draws.  I realize you may vote "neither" but out of the two which team is more likely to make the NCAA tourney and do some damage...W&L, or VWU?  Just the last two seasons for W&L...Final Four, Sweet 16.

4)  I have absolutely nothing against GenerallyInterested, and I hope him or her keep posting...but are you f*&&ing kidding me?  You have three posts and two are directed at Another Mom and W&L.  Takes some hutzpah to register literally 10 days ago, post ONE time, and then play traffic cop directing where posters should post their posts.  And like I said, I think most would agree with your observations except for the tone of suggesting the season's lost.  Is Calvin off the national stage?  Hopkins?  St Olaf?  If Messiah loses two in a row, are they done?  North Park?  Like what is the cutoff threshold for being mentioned or discussed in the National thread?

5)  We're getting into the heart of the season and honestly the activity level here overall is tepid at best.  We need more posting rather than less.

I originally planned to ask the question of what qualifies for a national stage but as a newbie here figured I'd ease into that.  This is a new thread you started with "Let's do this!" and topics have ranged from GK mechanics to roster sizes and lots in between (interesting topics I might add.)  I personally would not go so far as to disqualify anyone else's post--it's a message board after all.  But national stage qualification is still not clear to me.  Your responses above provide some clarity, at least from your point of view.

Now allow me to share mine.  I signed on recently as my HS senior son is being recruited and found this board. Some of those teams are mentioned here. I have not followed D3 soccer prior to this year.  Yes I can look up records and stats like anyone else.  But judging a program based on history isn't why I am here.  I still can and will respect those that do (and do find some of the stories very interesting.)  I also think it's fair to have a different perspective of national stage--one that is based more so on the outlook for the current season and future ones.  This was the basis for my questions.

For example if I ask a question as to the VWU game favorite it is just that.  It wasn't about who I believed to be the favorite.  (As an aside I get there may be skepticism of new posters as an unfamiliar lot.  Message boards are filled with trolls, foul language and otherwise bad intended persons.  I'm guessing it's happened here on occasion.)  Trashing polls is fine, after all I asked.  And even if I had been following D3 I would not use the last 2 seasons as the basis for a favorite in a game last night but to each his own.  Again I was the one who asked.  I watched the game.  VWU may or may not be the better team but played better imo and also has some decent wins this season.  Since you asked from this point forward among the two teams I actually would give them the nod thru 10 similar games or even preference to make the postseason.  Again nothing to do with last year, last 10 years or even coach's historical record.  I put less emphasis on that, maybe you don't.  Only time will tell who is right of course.

Interesting point #5 plus others in the meantime about participation.  (As I write this perhaps more have been posted.)  If increased participation is desired my suggestion is to take my case as an example and consider everyone visiting and/or posting has different motivations and perspectives.  I may leave tomorrow, next year, after my son graduates, or never.  I may be interested in the lore or the prospects or anything else for that matter.  As long as there is acceptance I'd like to contribute. But if I am to be lectured based on my ignorance of storied programs I'll just join the lurker crowd or leave altogether.  A compromise might be for me to just start a new thread which would be fair.  As long as I understood the subject of this one should only include a historical perspective.

It's hard to grow a base if new users don't feel welcomed. 

 

@freddyfud  (which is hard to type without laughing!), thank you for the response.  I have heard this complaint before, both in general about the atmosphere and also towards me specifically.  So if there are things we and/or I can do to make being here more comfortable I'm all in.  I can also try to keep my sarcasm in check better as it's often misinterpreted and/or taken personally.  Ultimately, you'll have to decide whether you want to join in or not.  I can't bear that burden. 

I do think you were a little unfair.  I had no idea whether you had been lurking here for years or were brand new as you explained.  Your post referenced polls as in plural...there's only one poll for real, and hopefully you've seen far more people than me suggest that the USC poll is not very helpful or accurate.  And while history actually is important, for many reasons including recruiting, I am looking forward and to the future if I project that W&L was the favorite.  And my point about why was it going to be a big win for VWU if W&L in fact is finished came not just from you but a compilation of posts...like either the match doesn't have much importance or it does, and if it does, why would that be?  And imo the reason the game potentially would have importance for VWU, which I believe it did, is precisely because W&L has been one of the big dogs, if not the dog, in that area. 

You mentioned Lynchburg.  Not sure if you had a reaction to my response there or not.  At any rate, there is no qualification standard for being talked about in this thread.  As you noted, pretty anything goes and eventually someone will gently or not so gently ask if we can get back on topic.  Yes, it's a national perspective thread (that yes, I've started pretty much every year), and you don't have to prove a certain level of quality or reach some bar to be discussed.  National thread, not national excellence thread, although of course conversations tend to revolve strong programs but don't have to.  It's definitely not a thread where only the perceived top 15 or top 30 can be talked about.  Iirc I think last year or the year before we actually had to cajole Another Mom to use the national thread ironically.

If you think VWU has better prospects going forward please tell us more.  Maybe we just disagree but engaging in a back and forth doesn't mean anyone is trying to run you off.  13 years ago I was in your position exactly.  I took my bruises (and still do lol) mostly because it takes 3-4 years to realize how important SoS is, for example.  VWU most years, if not every vear since I've been here, would have had to win the ODAC tourney to get a NCAA bid.  Their schedule generally has not been good enough to get them regionally ranked (another topic very hard to grasp at first because the regional rankings that mean anything aren't the USC regional rankings and only come out towards the end of the season) and therefore they wouldn't even come under consideration for an at-large bid.  For instance, if the NCAA tournament at-large choices were picked TODAY, I am almost certain W&L would be picked over VWU.  That's hard to understand when VWU is 6-1 and W&L is 3-1-3, but W&L appears to have the far superior schedule and that is weighted extremely heavily.  W&L's schedule actually looks overall softer than usual but still much stronger than VWU's.  The same would probably be true even if VWU had beaten W&L.

It's also a little unfair to conclude as you concluded in your next to last paragraph...."As long as I understood the subject of this one should only include a historical perspective."  Many posters are pretty open about sharing when they think a traditional power is having or going to have a down year.  And the board often has been extremely friendly with newcomers coming "on the stage," like Western Connecticut, or St Josephs (ME), or Sewanee.  If you do well long enough you'll get talked about.

The irony is that I actually was starting to pay attention to the Marlins.  I love to see emergent programs.  My team wasn't on the radar much at when I joined in 2012 or whenever it was.  As long as they keep doing well, you're going see more interest and talk about Denison.  Western Connecticut and UWEC were talked about a ton last year.

At any rate, I hope you stay.  And yes, start a new thread whenever you want, and if you outline some parameters that you hope will be followed for the thread I think most will try to accommodate.

It might be helpful to point out that last year a number of us including some old-timers were nearly distraught that Western CT didn't make the tournament with a record of 20-0-2 and 8-0 in conference.  They drew with UMass-Boston in the conference tourney final but lost the PK shootout.  No bid.  SoS too low.  Meanwhile, some of us were nearly as distraught that Williams got a bid with the bizarre record of 6-1-10.  And of course they got to the national final.  I remember a number of years back when Randolph was 17-1 and didn't get a bid.  There's very little subjectivity involved and the process is almost entirely math.


Addendum:  I stand corrected as VWU did have a decent SoS last year but the overall resume wasn't strong enough to get a bid.  I'm not sure how they had a SoS as high as they did reviewing the schedule, but they did benefit on SoS from playing W&L twice (a draw and then 6-1 loss) and CNU (4-0 loss).  The NCAA rankings (in contrast to USC regional rankings) are determinative, and here's the final NCAA regional rankings from 2022.

https://www.d3soccer.com/rankings/2022/Men/regional-rankings-4

Quote from: Freddyfud on September 21, 2023, 05:52:38 PM

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 21, 2023, 08:03:26 AM

Quote from: Freddyfud on September 21, 2023, 12:34:45 AM

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 20, 2023, 10:04:46 PM

3)  Are you suggesting that you didn't consider W&L the favorite?  Or that if VWU had won that wouldn't have been considered big?  I had to keep checking to see who actually won the game, and when Sierra posted that VWU was shelling W&L definitely seemed like he was trying to basically post an upset alert.  So yes, W&L was the favorite...by some distance...and I would guess they'd win 8 or at least 7 times out of 10 with a couple of the others being draws.  I realize you may vote "neither" but out of the two which team is more likely to make the NCAA tourney and do some damage...W&L, or VWU?  Just the last two seasons for W&L...Final Four, Sweet 16.

I originally planned to ask the question of what qualifies for a national stage but as a newbie here figured I'd ease into that.  This is a new thread you started with "Let's do this!" and topics have ranged from GK mechanics to roster sizes and lots in between (interesting topics I might add.)  I personally would not go so far as to disqualify anyone else's post--it's a message board after all.  But national stage qualification is still not clear to me.  Your responses above provide some clarity, at least from your point of view.

Now allow me to share mine.  I signed on recently as my HS senior son is being recruited and found this board. Some of those teams are mentioned here. I have not followed D3 soccer prior to this year.  Yes I can look up records and stats like anyone else.  But judging a program based on history isn't why I am here.  I still can and will respect those that do (and do find some of the stories very interesting.)  I also think it's fair to have a different perspective of national stage--one that is based more so on the outlook for the current season and future ones.  This was the basis for my questions.

For example if I ask a question as to the VWU game favorite it is just that.  It wasn't about who I believed to be the favorite.  (As an aside I get there may be skepticism of new posters as an unfamiliar lot.  Message boards are filled with trolls, foul language and otherwise bad intended persons.  I'm guessing it's happened here on occasion.)  Trashing polls is fine, after all I asked.  And even if I had been following D3 I would not use the last 2 seasons as the basis for a favorite in a game last night but to each his own.  Again I was the one who asked.  I watched the game.  VWU may or may not be the better team but played better imo and also has some decent wins this season.  Since you asked from this point forward among the two teams I actually would give them the nod thru 10 similar games or even preference to make the postseason.  Again nothing to do with last year, last 10 years or even coach's historical record.  I put less emphasis on that, maybe you don't.  Only time will tell who is right of course.

Interesting point #5 plus others in the meantime about participation.  (As I write this perhaps more have been posted.)  If increased participation is desired my suggestion is to take my case as an example and consider everyone visiting and/or posting has different motivations and perspectives.  I may leave tomorrow, next year, after my son graduates, or never.  I may be interested in the lore or the prospects or anything else for that matter.  As long as there is acceptance I'd like to contribute. But if I am to be lectured based on my ignorance of storied programs I'll just join the lurker crowd or leave altogether.  A compromise might be for me to just start a new thread which would be fair.  As long as I understood the subject of this one should only include a historical perspective.

It's hard to grow a base if new users don't feel welcomed. 

So as to my assessment of the VWU v. W&L game, I definitely saw a lot better chances for VWU and VWU controlling most of the action.  W&L got a great goal in the 73 minute and held on. The way soccer goes.

As to what team should be discussed on this particular page, one or more persons' opinion. We all have one.

In the past most of these discussions have been on the Mid-Atlantic page, NESCAC on theirs.  I mentioned on this page because VWU was 6-0 at the time and they were playing a recent perennial NCAA tournament qualifier (but appear to be going through some issues which for many of us who have followed W&L was unusual). Under Mike Singleton over his 9 years, W&L has be 128-31-20, one final four, 4 quarterfinals along with 7 NCAA qualifications. So, in my opinion, a team with its track record and currently has a record of 3-1-3 can still be in the national conversation. As to VWU, they could be an emerging team that some might be interested in tracking. Further, W&L is one of the few teams that will stretch itself by playing quality out of conference teams every year which I believe has been by some of us concerning other teams.

Best of luck to your family and your son on the recruitment part. Not easy. If you need or want advice on this as we went through reasonably recently, please do not hesitate to contact me.  My email is on the left and I have no problem answering questions.  FYI, no stupid questions.

Thanks, Sierra.  I thought that was helpful. 

As for qualifications for a team being mentioned or discussed, from my pov there is only one major requirement...caring enough about that team to post something about them.

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 21, 2023, 08:54:06 PM
Thanks, Sierra.  I thought that was helpful. 

As for qualifications for a team being mentioned or discussed, from my pov there is only one major requirement...caring enough about that team to post something about them.

Appreciate it.  IMO Lynchburg and Roanoke are good programs with great coaches. Several kids from my area who played with my son went to both of these programs and had great experiences soccer wise and academically.

@PaulNewman all good, not sure about others but I have thick skin at least.  Wasn't trying to be unfair but wanted to point out a different perspective as it relates to participation since that seemed to be a concern.  I see you've been here since 11/5/12 based on a quick profile check.  Mine shows July 27, 2023 so coming up to my 3 month anniversary!  My comment on the thread restricted to historical perspective was in the context of whether or not it would be fair for me to post here or start a new thread, that is all.

Please allow me to start over with a proper introduction.  Hi all!  I'm Freddyfud, a random name that came to my head when I was excited to create an AOL email account on a dial up connection 25 years ago and stuck with it ever since.  I graduated from Lehigh '93, so yes I'm old.  Decided to pursue studying instead of lacrosse or soccer but succumbed to the Greek life in the end.  We all have regrets, but at least I learned how to open a beer bottle with a cigarette lighter.  I now live near Raleigh, NC (born in Baltimore and grew up in Columbia, MD) and have 2 kids, including a 17 yo son passionate about soccer but makes me want to pull my hair out.  Every damn day.  OK with that out of the way...

I agree with the USC poll reliability, it's the same story for HS soccer.  I had the 2 ODAC games up last night side by side on my dual monitors.  When comparing the 4, my opinion was Lynchburg was on another level.  Not sure how to rank the other 3 but as I said VWU seemed to be the better of those two, if anything due to scoring chances.  I tend to judge based on what I see maybe to a fault.  I saw VWU try to exploit the backline mostly by long balls when I felt they could have been more patient at times.  Their midfielders seemed very capable but underutilized.  Other comments about the videographer possibly on something illicit are confirmed--a lot of the action in either box was flat out missed.  On my other monitor Lynchburg had a very effective press.  Hard to tell without a fullscreen video but it seemed the 8 was part of the backline press, with the 6 and possibly a CB in respectively advanced positions.  Whatever it was worked.

Your points on SoS are valid and helpful.  I admit I am ignorant there as I haven't reached that point of the season yet. I guess it's either conference championship or pool C.  Second place often means back to the school grind?

To your comment on the importance of history at least within the context of recruiting, I wonder if times have changed.  Excluding the obvious draw from the strongest programs, I would think innovation is even more important now during these post Covid times.  As in what are you doing for me now, not what have you done for me lately.  Probably long enough for another thread though.

To everyone else thank you.  I do find this board informative and entertaining.  At Lehigh I was exposed to tri-state students who felt they were the center of the universe.  Who knew there was something called NESCAC who would disagree?  And I am now definitely curious to attend a F&M game in person (after many years of parent sideline behavior at club games, forgive me if I have to leave during the first half.) 

Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on September 21, 2023, 08:42:56 PM
Best of luck to your family and your son on the recruitment part. Not easy. If you need or want advice on this as we went through reasonably recently, please do not hesitate to contact me.  My email is on the left and I have no problem answering questions.  FYI, no stupid questions.

Thank you.  That is generous.

Just  want to formally welcome Freddyfud to the board.  I kind of feel like there are  reports of this board's demise, while I see very knowledgeable and vested folks joining year over year.

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 21, 2023, 05:05:32 PM
Great story, Greg.  Thanks for sharing it.

And since you are from upstate NY, how did you in fact end up at North Park?

It's the school owned by the denomination in which I was raised. I met a lot of North Park students who were counselors at the church camp I attended in southwestern NY as a kid, and almost to a person I was really impressed by them and looked up to them. Plus, after spending my childhood and youth in leafy suburbia, I wanted to experience life in a big city.

The irony is that my second college choice was Wheaton. [shudder]

My high school guidance counselor forced all of her students to apply to at least three colleges, so the third one I picked, just to get her off of my back, was St. Olaf. No real reason why, other than the fact that the St. Olaf brochure had more pretty girls in its pictures than did any of the other brochures in the guidance counselor's office. Such is the way that a 17-year-old's mind operates.

As you can tell, I was keen to get away from home. There was no reason behind it other than to assert my independence and to experience a different part of the country, but it turns out in retrospect that I was at the forward edge of the mass exodus from upstate NY that's now been going on for decades. Too bad, because it was actually a nice place to grow up.

Just an FYI for those anticipating the game between Messiah and Mary Washington: owing to the forecast, it's been moved all the way up to 11:00 am Saturday, with the women's game to follow.

Quote from: Yankeesoccerdad on September 21, 2023, 05:26:00 PM

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 19, 2023, 12:56:42 PM
Sunday, Sept 24

Bowdoin-Williams...Game of the day.  This weekend should give us a strong hint about whether either of these teams are overrated.  I've watched snippets of Williams and Diffley looks as sharp as he was in last year's tourney run.  Is top GK in NESCAC down to Grady and Diffley?  Can Juantorena disrupt any offensive forays by the Ephs...and also supply a little magic on the other end?  Just like with having a Grady or Diffley, it's got to feel comforting for Bowdoin fans to see Juantorena on the pitch.  Or will the match be decided by a Huckster?  Cries to make sure you pay attention to a #35 somehow don't sound right.  But then there's #48, Michael Meese, at Trinity (TX), and no school has high impact players with more unusual numbers than North Park.

I've been meaning to respond to this but work travel got in the way. 

Beginning last night, Bowdoin plays four games in eight days, including a challenging weekend of road games against Midd and Williams (rated #5 and #3 on Massey).  Forecast calls for cool temps and rain both days.  Midd has turf but Cole Field at Williams will be a mud pit for Sunday (it is a NESCAC double header weekend, with Williams hosting Colby in the rain on Saturday).

Bowdoin had a solid non-conference win last night, defeating Southern Maine 5-1. Goals will be much harder to come by this weekend.  Since fall 2019 when the current 5th year seniors started (Braver, Juantorena and Selig), Bowdoin hasn't defeated either Midd or Williams, although there have been several ties (including an intense double OT tie with Midd in 2019, when ties weren't so much of a thing).  Both games should be typical, NESCAC physical battles, with the added unpredictable impact of rain.

Huck is a very special player and easy to spot w/ his #35.  Definitely worth streaming to watch him play if you aren't already tuning in Sunday for the mud pit soccer. 

The student newspaper ran a nice profile on him recently.

https://bowdoinorient.com/2023/09/01/polar-bear-of-the-week-tyler-huck-26/

Yes, Midd and Williams make for a very tough back-to-back set of weekend games.  Given the elimination of OT and the general competitive parity in the NESCAC, I can easily see a continuation of last year's trend toward a number of NESCAC draws throughout the season...and many of those scoreless.  I would think Bowdoin would feel OK if they came out of the weekend with anything ranging from two draws, to a win and a loss, to something better (unlikely).

That is a nice story about Tyler Huck.  I didn't realize he had the London background as a youth.  My only complaint is that he's an Arsenal fan...whereas my two sons are United fans and I'm a Liverpool fan...   :)

Freddy, no worries and appreciate your response to the response.

I do want to clarify one thing that I realized far too late might be misunderstood.  In that initial response to your short post, I used your post and quoted it because it was the most recent one after what seemed like a page or two of posters other than yourself trying to make sense of the USC poll (which may have happened in one of the other threads....So anyway I clumsily was responding to you but also trying to hit on a few points that really had nothing to do with you.  Only #2 and #3 were responding directly to you, and for #1 that was directed at what seemed like at least a handful of posters who had been talking about the USC poll and your reference to polls there re-triggered what I had already been thinking about responding to before your post.  I thought numbering the items would add clarity and suffice for understanding that I was addressing multiple topics, but in hindsight I get how the whole thing could come across.

One of the risks of frequent posting is that mistakes will be made, which I don't mind admitting to...as long as I'm the one who recognizes and corrects errors before someone else does lol.  I definitely got VWU wrong to some degree.  They've been up and down over the last decade but the Marlins have had some good seasons and their SoS in some years has been much better than I had pegged as a perennial thing.

This may help with the SoS and NCAA rankings that determine Pool C...last 4 years for VWU...below is overall record/record vs "ranked" teams/SoS...

2022 -- 12-4-4----1-3-2----.561

2021 -- 12-4-4----0-2-3----.514

2019 -- 7-11----1-1-0----.514

2018-- 5-11-1----0-4-0----.584

So two years consistent with where I thought their SoS usually landed, and two years where significantly higher and plenty high enough in terms of any threshold that would be disqualifying.  The .514 most often would be disqualifying except for rare cases where the rest of the resume is nearly spotless...and probably where a team had multiple "ranked wins" to its credit. 

So in 2022 VWU was a viable, borderline candidate for Pool C and they did end up regionally ranked at #5.  Close, but just a couple of teams above them with slightly better resumes to keep them out.  Maybe two more "ranked" wins in 2022 would have sealed the deal.  Same overall record in 2021 but were not regionally ranked (and thus essentially out of consideration) due mainly to SoS and also lack of regionally ranked wins.  You can see that in 2018 VWU actually had a quite good SoS at .584 (well above threshold), but there the overall record and lack of any "ranked" wins did them in.  Bottom line is that RvR (record vs ranked teams) and SoS play what most of us would consider an outsized role in the selection process unless the overall record was basically already disqualifying up front.  In other words, a team without a winning record isn't going to get a bid, but frequently there are teams that finish 9-5-2 or 7-4-5 or similar who do get bids because they have two or more ranked wins in their pocket and a sky-high SoS (like in .590-.630 range).  I intentionally included 9-5-2 because I think that was Tufts' record going into the 2016 NCAA tourney where they were borderline for even getting a bid and of course went on to win the national title.  The UAAs and a good portion of the NESCACs tend to have the highest SoSs, and some could argue (and do) that there's some unfairness there as those teams basically have high SoS baked in every year simply based on conference affiliation.

Quote from: Falconer on September 22, 2023, 08:00:17 AM
Just an FYI for those anticipating the game between Messiah and Mary Washington: owing to the forecast, it's been moved all the way up to 11:00 am Saturday, with the women's game to follow.

Hmmm, will be interesting to see if UMW now decides to say overnight Friday since I'm sure they have little desire to make the 3:30 drive at 6am.

(Is it bad that I subconsciously root against Mary Wash because driving through Fredericksburg on I95 is like dipping a toe into Hades?)

Quote from: Falconer on September 22, 2023, 08:00:17 AM
Just an FYI for those anticipating the game between Messiah and Mary Washington: owing to the forecast, it's been moved all the way up to 11:00 am Saturday, with the women's game to follow.

Came here to post the same thing after finding out.  Well . . ., any chance of me catching part of this game is gone now.  So frustrating that the most attractive game on Messiah's schedule isn't one that I can get to even though it is at home on a Saturday.  #1 vs. #3 in the nation is huge.  It was going to be a tight for me to get there by the second half when the game was at 5pm instead of later in the evening.  Now, zero chance of seeing a single minute given the kids' soccer games and a trip to the airport to pick-up an in-law flying in from Brazil.  Ugghh!   And, yes, the decision to move the game up makes sense in an effort to not lose the match entirely.  Just personally frustrated that I'll miss the top match on this year's schedule and won't get to see Mary Washington in person despite living 20 minutes away.

Quote from: Hopkins92 on September 22, 2023, 09:38:06 AM
(Is it bad that I subconsciously root against Mary Wash because driving through Fredericksburg on I95 is like dipping a toe into Hades?)

Dirty little secret of mine is that I root against my local h.s. football team because when they are good, Friday night home games make a mess of me being able to go anywhere. When they are bad, it's much more manageable. When my daughter starts marching in the band next year I'll have to change my tune, but for 15 years I've been rooting against them. Probably get me murdered down here in AL if the neighbors knew.

Quote from: Flying Weasel on September 22, 2023, 10:43:59 AM

Quote from: Falconer on September 22, 2023, 08:00:17 AM
Just an FYI for those anticipating the game between Messiah and Mary Washington: owing to the forecast, it's been moved all the way up to 11:00 am Saturday, with the women's game to follow.

Came here to post the same thing after finding out.  Well . . ., any chance of me catching part of this game is gone now.  So frustrating that the most attractive game on Messiah's schedule isn't one that I can get to even though it is at home on a Saturday.  #1 vs. #3 in the nation is huge.  It was going to be a tight for me to get there by the second half when the game was at 5pm instead of later in the evening.  Now, zero chance of seeing a single minute given the kids' soccer games and a trip to the airport to pick-up an in-law flying in from Brazil.  Ugghh!   And, yes, the decision to move the game up makes sense in an effort to not lose the match entirely.  Just personally frustrated that I'll miss the top match on this year's schedule and won't get to see Mary Washington in person despite living 20 minutes away.

I'm not sure they play at all tomorrow

Quote from: NEPAFAN on September 22, 2023, 11:13:01 AM

Quote from: Flying Weasel on September 22, 2023, 10:43:59 AM

Quote from: Falconer on September 22, 2023, 08:00:17 AM
Just an FYI for those anticipating the game between Messiah and Mary Washington: owing to the forecast, it's been moved all the way up to 11:00 am Saturday, with the women's game to follow.

Came here to post the same thing after finding out.  Well . . ., any chance of me catching part of this game is gone now.  So frustrating that the most attractive game on Messiah's schedule isn't one that I can get to even though it is at home on a Saturday.  #1 vs. #3 in the nation is huge.  It was going to be a tight for me to get there by the second half when the game was at 5pm instead of later in the evening.  Now, zero chance of seeing a single minute given the kids' soccer games and a trip to the airport to pick-up an in-law flying in from Brazil.  Ugghh!   And, yes, the decision to move the game up makes sense in an effort to not lose the match entirely.  Just personally frustrated that I'll miss the top match on this year's schedule and won't get to see Mary Washington in person despite living 20 minutes away.

I'm not sure they play at all tomorrow

Good question considering they are playing on grass.  Interesting that they have two turf field (one is lacrosse and the other field hockey - FYI field hockey is huge in PA and Messiah did win a nat'l champ in that), but don't think either has soccer lines. 

Also I would think that the game will most likely not be pushed to Sunday (not saying that day would better with the weather forecast) based on religious reasons. Messiah used to have issues with day 2 of the NCAAs being on Sundays (I think they may have changed that). However, reg. season games they might stay true.

Maybe play Monday night!!  Much better than the NFL!! That would be a great time!!

Quote from: Hopkins92 on September 22, 2023, 09:38:06 AM
(Is it bad that I subconsciously root against Mary Wash because driving through Fredericksburg on I95 is like dipping a toe into Hades?)

Southbound is a toe.  Northbound is an entire leg.

If you have the day off today (or are taking a late lunch break), the Christopher Newport v. UC Santa Cruz game at 1:00 pm eastern @ Colorado College is the most national "conference" game you will ever find.  It's technically not a Coast 2 Coast conference game because they only have a conference tournament in that conference, but they are both in the C2C and they are playing at a neutral site that is thousands of miles away from either school (around 1300 miles from Santa Cruz and 1700 miles from Newport News if anyone is road-tripping it) and 6000+ feet above sea level (for comparison Newport News is about 15 feet above sea level and UC Santa Cruz is up the mountain a bit and the soccer field is probably around 400ft elevation).

By the way, if you're unfamiliar with the Coast2Coast conference and wondering what the heck it is and why it was created (hint:  it's not because of gargantuan media contracts like the new Big 10), this D3 Datacast (basketball) podcast ("What's the Deal with the Coast-to-Coast Conference?") was just posted today and might be of interest to you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLvFHXXJQBg

Quote from: Freddyfud on September 22, 2023, 12:39:43 PM

Quote from: Hopkins92 on September 22, 2023, 09:38:06 AM
(Is it bad that I subconsciously root against Mary Wash because driving through Fredericksburg on I95 is like dipping a toe into Hades?)

Southbound is a toe.  Northbound is an entire leg.

Yeah, the extension of the express lanes SB is huge... NB extension well under way. Long overdue and honestly, while places like Lumberton and the 295 turnoff can be a pain, nothing is like F'berg.

For some reason I'm thinking Messiah has played on turf at home...and maybe even in the NCAA tourney...or did that involve moving an entire Sectional from Grantham to Rochester?  Maybe both true?

In any case, I very much have been looking forward to it and hope they play, but if the conditions are truly awful we're not gonna learn much.

These kind of matchups are so infrequent, and sometimes don 't happen when we expect them to.  Cue in the history!  Ever since Tufts upset Messiah in the Elite 8 in 2014 the two programs never met again, although they could have met a couple of times at least in the NCAA tourney if for one of them getting knocked out before meeting.  We also have never gotten Messiah vs Amherst or Messiah vs Chicago. 

Btw, this is a good case for the "higher ranked team" being the underdog.  Hard to go against Messiah at home in this big of a spot.  They seem to crave these games and I wonder if sometimes they coast too much almost because of boredom.


*****Btw, for as long as I've been playing (following) Messiah has played on Sundays.  Calvin and I think Hope notably do not...and there are others who do not.

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 22, 2023, 01:49:53 PM
Btw, this is a good case for the "higher ranked team" being the underdog.  Hard to go against Messiah at home in this big of a spot.  They seem to crave these games and I wonder if sometimes they coast too much almost because of boredom.

Long thought this.  They can look incredible against teams that they know a lot is at stake, then take a mental health day when they play a perceived lesser opponent.

Perhaps a topic of discussion for the next New Show?

SC.

Quote from: SimpleCoach on September 22, 2023, 02:03:37 PM

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 22, 2023, 01:49:53 PM
Btw, this is a good case for the "higher ranked team" being the underdog.  Hard to go against Messiah at home in this big of a spot.  They seem to crave these games and I wonder if sometimes they coast too much almost because of boredom.

Long thought this.  They can look incredible against teams that they know a lot is at stake, then take a mental health day when they play a perceived lesser opponent.

Perhaps a topic of discussion for the next New Show?

SC.

Excellent! 

Deconstructing the Messiah psyche from an outsider's perspective

OR

An outsider's never before seen glimpse into the Messiah experience

OR

Yeah, it's flippin Messiah...what ya gonna do about it?

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 22, 2023, 01:49:53 PM
*****Btw, for as long as I've been playing (following) Messiah has played on Sundays.  Calvin and I think Hope notably do not...and there are others who do not.

Wheaton doesn't play or practice on Sundays, either.

Quote from: SimpleCoach on September 22, 2023, 02:03:37 PM

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 22, 2023, 01:49:53 PM
Btw, this is a good case for the "higher ranked team" being the underdog.  Hard to go against Messiah at home in this big of a spot.  They seem to crave these games and I wonder if sometimes they coast too much almost because of boredom.

Long thought this.  They can look incredible against teams that they know a lot is at stake, then take a mental health day when they play a perceived lesser opponent.

Perhaps a topic of discussion for the next New Show?

SC.

It may be particularly notable with Messiah because when they look good they can be incredible and so when they aren't quite as incredible it feels like a let down, but isn't this a common phenomenon?  When teams are playing a compressed schedule like in college soccer and they travel on a long bus ride after classes, mid-week, and play before only a smattering of fans against a "regular" opponent, it can be hard to get up for a game.  That's why home field can also be significant as an advantage if your fans can help lift you (and Messiah surely has that going for them).

PN - I'm not the historian you are, but I think you are on to something re: a sectional being moved. As you know, their women's program is neck and neck with the men in terms of dynastic proclivities, so it's likely they were both slated to host due to seeding but had to move due to that conflict.

As mentioned in another thread, they have turf fields for other sports (notably their excellent FH team), but as far as I know, they only play on the grass at Shoemaker.

Messiah played Stevens on turf in the 2017 NCAA sectional semis.  Game was moved from Shoemaker due to heavy rain

Btw, this a question for some of the old-timers (and anyone)...and please chime in if you think this is hyperbolic and/or unfair.

Tufts was not better than Messiah in 2014...very, very good and that day good enough but 2012-2014 Messiah had just fantastic teams who I would guess could have finished mid-table or better in the Patriot League.  Tufts scored like in the first minute.  Messiah cleared a ball to only outside the 18 where Tufts legend and midfield maestro, Jason Kayne, one-timed a half-volley top shelf.  Messiah threw the kitchen sink at Tufts but could not break through to score.  Messiah fans will point out that the match was played on Muhlenberg's infamous turf.

So the question...was that game/moment program-altering (and even D3 landscape-altering) for either, both, or none.  I don't think it takes a lot of hyperbole to say all three. 

Tufts experienced the feeling of being a champion (barely, barely got a bid that year too), and went on to win three more in a four year period (a feat only Messiah had matched or exceeded at least in the past 25 years).  Not saying Tufts didn't have great players and they obviously has a brilliant coach, but I think winning that game changed the Jumbo culture, just like with Messiah, winning every single year became the expectation.

Messiah has won only once title since that game when at worst they probably were supposed to win every other year.  The next year of 2015 Amherst won.  Then Tufts won again in 2016.  Messiah won in 2017...a year when I think Tufts got knocked out of Bello Field by Brandeis in double OT that at least most of Tufts Nation considered fluky.  Then back to Tufts for 2018 and 2019.  And after Covid year, Conn Coll and Chicago have claimed titles.  We at least currently are in a new era where there isn't an almost automatic endorsement of Messiah vs The Field.

In truth, I doubt Messiah has changed much at all, but maybe has forced Falcon Nation to calibrate things a little differently.

And certainly the overall landscape still has its favorites every year, but the sense that you don't have to be Messiah (or Tufts) to win a title imo has really opened things up. 

Quote from: Hopkins92 on September 22, 2023, 02:40:28 PM
PN - I'm not the historian you are, but I think you are on to something re: a sectional being moved. As you know, their women's program is neck and neck with the men in terms of dynastic proclivities, so it's likely they were both slated to host due to seeding but had to move due to that conflict.

As mentioned in another thread, they have turf fields for other sports (notably their excellent FH team), but as far as I know, they only play on the grass at Shoemaker.

I'm older than you so my memory is fading!  Iirc it was weather-related, and how many times in history has something been moved to Rochester, NY for having the better weather?  Might even have been the year the Yellow Jackets beat Messiah to go Final Four.  But definitely could have been something with the women.  Just seems like the sectional already had been set and was about to be played.

Me:  "Alexa, has Messiah ever played a soccer game at home on turf?" 

Alexa:  "Sorry, I don't have an answer for that."

Quote from: paclassic89 on September 22, 2023, 03:02:37 PM
Messiah played Stevens on turf in the 2017 NCAA sectional semis.  Game was moved from Shoemaker due to heavy rain

And there it is! 

At the risk of trivialising your point PN, which is definitely not my intention, the D3 national tournament is what the European Cup used to be, before it became Champions' League.  On the day, there is a pretty good chance that an non-fancied D3 team (at least by those in here)  can have the stars align and get a result.  I am sure that (and don't rush to patent this, I am already talking to ESPN) if there was a D3 Champions League where after the conference season was completed, the top 32 met in groups of 4 and that got whittled down to a final two (to be perpetually held at the billiards table that is Hitchcock Field), we would possibly see a little less in the way of surprises in terms of who progresses and who doesn't.

Quote from: EnmoreCat on September 22, 2023, 03:18:37 PM
At the risk of trivialising your point PN, which is definitely not my intention, the D3 national tournament is what the European Cup used to be, before it became Champions' League.  On the day, there is a pretty good chance that an non-fancied D3 team (at least by those in here)  can have the stars align and get a result.  I am sure that (and don't rush to patent this, I am already talking to ESPN) if there was a D3 Champions League where after the conference season was completed, the top 32 met in groups of 4 and that got whittled down to a final two (to be perpetually held at the billiards table that is Hitchcock Field), we would possibly see a little less in the way of surprises in terms of who progresses and who doesn't.

Of course...but until that day Tufts had never won and Messiah did win literally almost every year.  Nowadays I think instead of just a couple of absolute favorites there are at least another 8-12 (or maybe even 15-20) who could win the whole thing.  And yes, the occasional fluky upset has derailed some of the dream matchups from happening.

Quote from: paclassic89 on September 22, 2023, 03:02:37 PM
Messiah played Stevens on turf in the 2017 NCAA sectional semis.  Game was moved from Shoemaker due to heavy rain

The University of Rochester men's soccer team advanced to the Final Four for the first time in school history after posting a 2-1 victory over second-ranked Messiah College in the NCAA Division III Sectional Final on Sunday afternoon.

This is the first time Rochester has beaten Messiah in the NCAA Division III playoffs. The Falcons won the first four meetings, including a 2-0 victory last year on their home field in Grantham, PA. That sent Messiah to the Final Four and the Falcons won the NCAA title.

The 2018 sectional was supposed to return to Messiah, but a late-week snowstorm made the soccer field unplayable and the tournament was re-directed to Rochester on Thursday evening.

So Rochester is key because Messiah beat UR in the Elite 8 in 2017 AT MESSIAH to return to the Final Four (where they almost never or maybe never have lost).  And then the very next year you see the above when both met again in the Elite 8.

Quote from: EnmoreCat on September 22, 2023, 03:18:37 PM
At the risk of trivialising your point PN, which is definitely not my intention, the D3 national tournament is what the European Cup used to be, before it became Champions' League.  On the day, there is a pretty good chance that an non-fancied D3 team (at least by those in here)  can have the stars align and get a result.  I am sure that (and don't rush to patent this, I am already talking to ESPN) if there was a D3 Champions League where after the conference season was completed, the top 32 met in groups of 4 and that got whittled down to a final two (to be perpetually held at the billiards table that is Hitchcock Field), we would possibly see a little less in the way of surprises in terms of who progresses and who doesn't.

Surprise, after reading again to make sure I understood what you were saying (had to employ my translation software), I don't think I agree that there would be less surprises.  Certainly when you're talking magnitude of surprise that generally would be less, as in theory you're starting with better teams  (so less shock upsets),  but I don't think the percentage chances for the ultimate favorites would go up a lot.  You keep mentioning "the billiards table that is Hitchcock Field."  Are you suggesting that Amherst would win virtually every year if D3 followed your plan and the Final was played every year at Amherst?

Definitely not suggesting that Amherst would win every game at the billiard table that is Hitchcock Field, PN, but I know for a fact that no team has won more games there than the Mammoths.  I do like describing it as TBTTIHF as I know that it runs completely contrary to opinion in here.

The point I was making about the group phase is that teams like Steaua Bucharest, PSV and Red Star, all won European Cups, but benefited from one off games, whereas in the group phase it is tougher to consistently get results.  None of those teams could do it now.  If a D3 Champions League group had Massey teams 1, 5, 15 and 35.  Team 35 might "surprise" team 5, but the fact they are team 35 probably tells you that that is more of a surprise.  As things currently stand, that might get them to the sweet 16 or elite 8, but in a D3 Champions League they still have to get results against teams 1 & 15, which is empirically less likely, notwithstanding that a win against team 5 would improve their rating.

Quote from: paclassic89 on September 22, 2023, 03:02:37 PM
Messiah played Stevens on turf in the 2017 NCAA sectional semis.  Game was moved from Shoemaker due to heavy rain

Definitely happened, but, and I am only going on what I can see, the two turf fields seem to not have soccer markings. https://gomessiah.com/facilities/lacrosse-turf/9 and https://gomessiah.com/facilities/anderson-field/5  May be other fields that they have access. https://www.google.com/maps/place/Messiah+University/@40.1530403,-76.9885789,614m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x89c8e8c0b22d487d:0x85a6affc49f5bcd3!8m2!3d40.1576139!4d-76.9869025!16zL20vMDIxbmJy?entry=ttu 

However, they may have a way.

Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on September 22, 2023, 04:09:44 PM

Quote from: paclassic89 on September 22, 2023, 03:02:37 PM
Messiah played Stevens on turf in the 2017 NCAA sectional semis.  Game was moved from Shoemaker due to heavy rain

Definitely happened, but, and I am only going on what I can see, the two turf fields seem to not have soccer markings. https://gomessiah.com/facilities/lacrosse-turf/9 and https://gomessiah.com/facilities/anderson-field/5  May be other fields that they have access. https://www.google.com/maps/place/Messiah+University/@40.1530403,-76.9885789,614m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x89c8e8c0b22d487d:0x85a6affc49f5bcd3!8m2!3d40.1576139!4d-76.9869025!16zL20vMDIxbmJy?entry=ttu 

However, they may have a way.

"If you build it, they will come".

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 22, 2023, 03:05:33 PM
Btw, this a question for some of the old-timers (and anyone)...and please chime in if you think this is hyperbolic and/or unfair.

Tufts was not better than Messiah in 2014...very, very good and that day good enough but 2012-2014 Messiah had just fantastic teams who I would guess could have finished mid-table or better in the Patriot League.  Tufts scored like in the first minute.  Messiah cleared a ball to only outside the 18 where Tufts legend and midfield maestro, Jason Kayne, one-timed a half-volley top shelf.  Messiah threw the kitchen sink at Tufts but could not break through to score.  Messiah fans will point out that the match was played on Muhlenberg's infamous turf.

So the question...was that game/moment program-altering (and even D3 landscape-altering) for either, both, or none.  I don't think it takes a lot of hyperbole to say all three. 

Tufts experienced the feeling of being a champion (barely, barely got a bid that year too), and went on to win three more in a four year period (a feat only Messiah had matched or exceeded at least in the past 25 years).  Not saying Tufts didn't have great players and they obviously has a brilliant coach, but I think winning that game changed the Jumbo culture, just like with Messiah, winning every single year became the expectation.

Messiah has won only once title since that game when at worst they probably were supposed to win every other year.  The next year of 2015 Amherst won.  Then Tufts won again in 2016.  Messiah won in 2017...a year when I think Tufts got knocked out of Bello Field by Brandeis in double OT that at least most of Tufts Nation considered fluky.  Then back to Tufts for 2018 and 2019.  And after Covid year, Conn Coll and Chicago have claimed titles.  We at least currently are in a new era where there isn't an almost automatic endorsement of Messiah vs The Field.

In truth, I doubt Messiah has changed much at all, but maybe has forced Falcon Nation to calibrate things a little differently.

And certainly the overall landscape still has its favorites every year, but the sense that you don't have to be Messiah (or Tufts) to win a title imo has really opened things up.

I think this is a long answer with a lot of factors.

For my money I think the "elite tier" of D3 soccer has just gotten broader and flatter, while the second tier has gotten so much larger. Messiah in the 00s and early teens was constantly in the top tier, but that top tier, the teams that could legitimately win a title, was maybe a cast of 4 or 5 schools that rotated, but Messiah was always there. By the start of the teens, I think that tier had expanded to 8 teams, with 4 or 5 being there regularly, or at least spending a considerable number of years in a row there. Now I think that tier is closer to 12, with 4 or 5 that are there consistently and then a rotating group.

As that group expands, and frankly the second tier gets deeper in quality, the odds of "upsets" increases, especially in a low scoring game like soccer that is not really the best for single-elimination tournaments. I don't think you are ever going to see another run like Messiah from 2000-2014. 10/14 championships in an NCAA style tournament is a dominance that I don't think, the way talent is evaluated and dispersed now, will ever be repeated.

Personally, any team that can win 2 titles in 5 years, with other years being Elite 8 or better, is probably a dynasty. I find Tufts run of 4 in 6 years to be almost comically against the odds these days. I can see teams winning back to back again, you get that special group of players and they win as mostly juniors and again as seniors. But beyond that? There is so much talent available, and so many more schools with the ability to find it.

I suspect Messiah will remain among the elites, but I suspect a championship every 5 years, maybe a repeat once in every 10 years, is going to be a darn good mark for D3 dynasties.

Now, why do I think this is true? Because the players across the country are so much better. My home town soccer club in NJ was founded in 1976. Those kids, from that very first year of inexperienced dads inspired by the NASL, went to college in the late 80s, early 90s. It was one of 4 clubs in two counties. I started playing in 1983 at 5 years old, and the league had grown to 12 clubs, and I promise you, every one of our coaches still had no idea what soccer was. The refs were all immigrants, and tactics were non-existent. My dad was watching VHS "learn to coach soccer" tapes in 1985, and he was still watching them while coaching me in 1994, just going up in age.

We had no clue how to play soccer and, except for the 1994 World Cup it wasn't on TV. I remember my dad hiring a soccer "tutor" for several members of our team when I was about 10, all the parents chipped in. It was a 70 year old Italian guy we couldn't understand who spent an hour with us and told us we couldn't beat 7 year olds in "the old country" and we weren't playing soccer, just kickball, and he wasn't able to coach such incompetence. We were runner-up NJ State Champs at the time.

When I went to W&L, class of 2000, it wasn't the tactics that kept me on the bench, they were no better than what I had picked up playing select and at various summer camps and in h.s., it was the athleticism. I had a good "soccer mind" for the time, having watched as many videos as my dad, but I couldn't kick and run with the college crowd. And I guarantee almost no one in D3 was looking for David Beckham, they were looking for Cobi Jones.

Contrast that to today, where the local club where I live now, required completion of all the U.S. Soccer grassroots classes to coach a 5 year old rec league team. In Alabama! A state where soccer is still often considered a communist plot. You want to coach an entry level travel team? D license. You want to coach a select travel team? C License. Every travel coach is paid, they share at least two teams in season, often 3, with assistants that coach away games.

In other words, these kids playing today have learned to play soccer. Maybe not as well as the rest of the world, with their academy systems that cover huge swathes of the country while ours covers a few urban areas, but they have learned more by 10 about "football" than I ever learned about "soccer". And the ones playing D3 aren't just the kids that made a h.s. team and could run. The recruiting process is different, the newer coaches are different, the pool is bigger, and schools like Messiah, with their wonderful recruiting niches, can get players they never dreamed of 20 years ago, but so can so many other schools.

I expect it will continue to get harder, and I suspect more and different schools will push through to the Elite 8. Not just because tournament soccer can be fluky, but because the barriers to good players have fallen and more and more good coaches grow up from the generations after mine that actually learned how to play football.

Quote from: EnmoreCat on September 22, 2023, 03:54:39 PM
Definitely not suggesting that Amherst would win every game at the billiard table that is Hitchcock Field, PN, but I know for a fact that no team has won more games there than the Mammoths.  I do like describing it as TBTTIHF as I know that it runs completely contrary to opinion in here.

The point I was making about the group phase is that teams like Steaua Bucharest, PSV and Red Star, all won European Cups, but benefited from one off games, whereas in the group phase it is tougher to consistently get results.  None of those teams could do it now.  If a D3 Champions League group had Massey teams 1, 5, 15 and 35.  Team 35 might "surprise" team 5, but the fact they are team 35 probably tells you that that is more of a surprise.  As things currently stand, that might get them to the sweet 16 or elite 8, but in a D3 Champions League they still have to get results against teams 1 & 15, which is empirically less likely, notwithstanding that a win against team 5 would improve their rating.

LOL, you've already moved the bar from 32 to 35!

I'm not sure what the point is in trying to apply something that is never gonna happen.  And your argument that a Champions League would increase the consistency of results actually helps my argument about why that one particular game carries special significance.  Messiah had won almost every year, then Tufts won three out of four, that upstart Amherst got one, Conn one, and now Chicago one.  Out of all of those the only mild to moderate surprises were maybe the first Tufts title and maybe Conn, with the caveat that once both of those teams reached the Final Four they were considered just as likely or more so to snag the title than the other three participants.  Do you truly want Messiah to win every year?  Or just hoping that Amherst will win every year.  There really are no shock champions.  As I noted maybe a couple of weeks ago the only non-Messiah, non-NESCAC title winners in recent memory were the incredible Chicago team last year (that was imo pretty inarguably the best team in the country) and OWU in 2011 when if form had held OWU should have played Messiah at the Final Four or for the Final.  Messiah had one of those fluke losses, just as OWU did the next year in 2012.  Those two teams were neck and neck and pretty clearly #1 and #2 in the country in 2011...and close to it in 2012.

Quote from: jknezek on September 22, 2023, 04:13:24 PM

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 22, 2023, 03:05:33 PM
Btw, this a question for some of the old-timers (and anyone)...and please chime in if you think this is hyperbolic and/or unfair.

Tufts was not better than Messiah in 2014...very, very good and that day good enough but 2012-2014 Messiah had just fantastic teams who I would guess could have finished mid-table or better in the Patriot League.  Tufts scored like in the first minute.  Messiah cleared a ball to only outside the 18 where Tufts legend and midfield maestro, Jason Kayne, one-timed a half-volley top shelf.  Messiah threw the kitchen sink at Tufts but could not break through to score.  Messiah fans will point out that the match was played on Muhlenberg's infamous turf.

So the question...was that game/moment program-altering (and even D3 landscape-altering) for either, both, or none.  I don't think it takes a lot of hyperbole to say all three. 

Tufts experienced the feeling of being a champion (barely, barely got a bid that year too), and went on to win three more in a four year period (a feat only Messiah had matched or exceeded at least in the past 25 years).  Not saying Tufts didn't have great players and they obviously has a brilliant coach, but I think winning that game changed the Jumbo culture, just like with Messiah, winning every single year became the expectation.

Messiah has won only once title since that game when at worst they probably were supposed to win every other year.  The next year of 2015 Amherst won.  Then Tufts won again in 2016.  Messiah won in 2017...a year when I think Tufts got knocked out of Bello Field by Brandeis in double OT that at least most of Tufts Nation considered fluky.  Then back to Tufts for 2018 and 2019.  And after Covid year, Conn Coll and Chicago have claimed titles.  We at least currently are in a new era where there isn't an almost automatic endorsement of Messiah vs The Field.

In truth, I doubt Messiah has changed much at all, but maybe has forced Falcon Nation to calibrate things a little differently.

And certainly the overall landscape still has its favorites every year, but the sense that you don't have to be Messiah (or Tufts) to win a title imo has really opened things up.

I think this is a long answer with a lot of factors.

For my money I think the "elite tier" of D3 soccer has just gotten broader and flatter, while the second tier has gotten so much larger. Messiah in the 00s and early teens was constantly in the top tier, but that top tier, the teams that could legitimately win a title, was maybe a cast of 4 or 5 schools that rotated, but Messiah was always there. By the start of the teens, I think that tier had expanded to 8 teams, with 4 or 5 being there regularly, or at least spending a considerable number of years in a row there. Now I think that tier is closer to 12, with 4 or 5 that are there consistently and then a rotating group.

As that group expands, and frankly the second tier gets deeper in quality, the odds of "upsets" increases, especially in a low scoring game like soccer that is not really the best for single-elimination tournaments. I don't think you are ever going to see another run like Messiah from 2000-2014. 10/14 championships in an NCAA style tournament is a dominance that I don't think, the way talent is evaluated and dispersed now, will ever be repeated.

Personally, any team that can win 2 titles in 5 years, with other years being Elite 8 or better, is probably a dynasty. I find Tufts run of 4 in 6 years to be almost comically against the odds these days. I can see teams winning back to back again, you get that special group of players and they win as mostly juniors and again as seniors. But beyond that? There is so much talent available, and so many more schools with the ability to find it.

I suspect Messiah will remain among the elites, but I suspect a championship every 5 years, maybe a repeat once in every 10 years, is going to be a darn good mark for D3 dynasties.

Now, why do I think this is true? Because the players across the country are so much better. My home town soccer club in NJ was founded in 1976. Those kids, from that very first year of inexperienced dads inspired by the NASL, went to college in the late 80s, early 90s. It was one of 4 clubs in two counties. I started playing in 1983 at 5 years old, and the league had grown to 12 clubs, and I promise you, every one of our coaches still had no idea what soccer was. The refs were all immigrants, and tactics were non-existent. My dad was watching VHS "learn to coach soccer" tapes in 1985, and he was still watching them while coaching me in 1994, just going up in age.

We had no clue how to play soccer and, except for the 1994 World Cup it wasn't on TV. I remember my dad hiring a soccer "tutor" for several members of our team when I was about 10, all the parents chipped in. It was a 70 year old Italian guy we couldn't understand who spent an hour with us and told us we couldn't beat 7 year olds in "the old country" and we weren't playing soccer, just kickball, and he wasn't able to coach such incompetence. We were runner-up NJ State Champs at the time.

When I went to W&L, class of 2000, it wasn't the tactics that kept me on the bench, they were no better than what I had picked up playing select and at various summer camps and in h.s., it was the athleticism. I had a good "soccer mind" for the time, having watched as many videos as my dad, but I couldn't kick and run with the college crowd. And I guarantee almost no one in D3 was looking for David Beckham, they were looking for Cobi Jones.

Contrast that to today, where the local club where I live now, required completion of all the U.S. Soccer grassroots classes to coach a 5 year old rec league team. In Alabama! A state where soccer is still often considered a communist plot. You want to coach an entry level travel team? D license. You want to coach a select travel team? C License. Every travel coach is paid, they share at least two teams in season, often 3, with assistants that coach away games.

In other words, these kids playing today have learned to play soccer. Maybe not as well as the rest of the world, with their academy systems that cover huge swathes of the country while ours covers a few urban areas, but they have learned more by 10 about "football" than I ever learned about "soccer". And the ones playing D3 aren't just the kids that made a h.s. team and could run. The recruiting process is different, the newer coaches are different, the pool is bigger, and schools like Messiah, with their wonderful recruiting niches, can get players they never dreamed of 20 years ago, but so can so many other schools.

I expect it will continue to get harder, and I suspect more and different schools will push through to the Elite 8. Not just because tournament soccer can be fluky, but because the barriers to good players have fallen and more and more good coaches grow up from the generations after mine that actually learned how to play football.

Agree with all of this even if it doesn't really assess the significance (or lack thereof) of that 2014 match.

And since you brought it up, why DO you live in Alabama lol??!

Quote from: Kuiper on September 22, 2023, 12:46:42 PM
If you have the day off today (or are taking a late lunch break), the Christopher Newport v. UC Santa Cruz game at 1:00 pm eastern @ Colorado College is the most national "conference" game you will ever find.  It's technically not a Coast 2 Coast conference game because they only have a conference tournament in that conference, but they are both in the C2C and they are playing at a neutral site that is thousands of miles away from either school (around 1300 miles from Santa Cruz and 1700 miles from Newport News if anyone is road-tripping it) and 6000+ feet above sea level (for comparison Newport News is about 15 feet above sea level and UC Santa Cruz is up the mountain a bit and the soccer field is probably around 400ft elevation).

By the way, if you're unfamiliar with the Coast2Coast conference and wondering what the heck it is and why it was created (hint:  it's not because of gargantuan media contracts like the new Big 10), this D3 Datacast (basketball) podcast ("What's the Deal with the Coast-to-Coast Conference?") was just posted today and might be of interest to you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLvFHXXJQBg

Christopher Newport woke up from a tight game that they were winning 1-0 at half to score 4 goals in the second and beat UC Santa Cruz 5-0.  It was a little of a rope-a-dope because UCSC was passing pretty nicely down the field and doing good switches to the left wing running onto goal, but CNU's right back was generally able to handle those easily and usher the wing out to the endline where he ran out of room.  Once they shut that down (or the left wing ran out of gas after multiple lung-busting runs), UCSC didn't have a lot of ideas and CNU went to work.  By winning this game easily, CNU was able to rotate a lot of players and that will help them because they have to turn around tomorrow and play a rested (and altitude-adjusted) Colorado College.  I think CNU has the talent to handle them regardless, but Colorado College did tie Ohio Northern earlier this year in Ada, OH and usually plays pretty well at home. 

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 22, 2023, 04:21:15 PM

Agree with all of this even if it doesn't really assess the significance (or lack thereof) of that 2014 match.

And since you brought it up, why DO you live in Alabama lol??!

Probably because I don't consider that particular match all that significant for Messiah. More so for Tufts because I agree it's easier to win when you already have proven you can do it. Breaking through is hard. But I think around that time, and I'm surprised it didn't happen a few years earlier, the democratization of D3 soccer was in full swing. I just think Messiah had such a mystique that it took a few years longer than it should have for the mystique to diminish as talent spread. And yes, I mean diminish. There is still a mystique about Messiah, well-earned as they are one of the best and, in my opinion, consistently the most beautiful team to watch in D3.

And I live in AL because my job is here. I left the north east for South Florida for a job, lived there for a few years, met and married my wife there, and then the office was closed and we were moved up here. Alabama has it's good points and it's bad points, like everywhere else, but I will forever be a yankee to the people here. And even my kids, born here, will always be outsiders since they were born to a yankee. I do, however, find living in a drastically different part of the country from where I grew up very broadening and helpful. It helps explain a lot about our nation right now.

Quote from: jknezek on September 22, 2023, 04:31:25 PM

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 22, 2023, 04:21:15 PM

Agree with all of this even if it doesn't really assess the significance (or lack thereof) of that 2014 match.

And since you brought it up, why DO you live in Alabama lol??!

Probably because I don't consider that particular match all that significant for Messiah. More so for Tufts because I agree it's easier to win when you already have proven you can do it. Breaking through is hard. But I think around that time, and I'm surprised it didn't happen a few years earlier, the democratization of D3 soccer was in full swing. I just think Messiah had such a mystique that it took a few years longer than it should have for the mystique to diminish as talent spread. And yes, I mean diminish. There is still a mystique about Messiah, well-earned as they are one of the best and, in my opinion, consistently the most beautiful team to watch in D3.

And I live in AL because my job is here. I left the north east for South Florida for a job, lived there for a few years, met and married my wife there, and then the office was closed and we were moved up here. Alabama has it's good points and it's bad points, like everywhere else, but I will forever be a yankee to the people here. And even my kids, born here, will always be outsiders since they were born to a yankee. I do, however, find living in a drastically different part of the country from where I grew up very broadening and helpful. It helps explain a lot about our nation right now.

Love that first paragraph.  I agree that Messiah as a program probably hasn't changed much at all, but certainly the fanbase has had to adjust.

On the other, you probably mentioned that before about how you got to Alabama.  And without going into details and getting myself in more trouble I agree that much of the Northeast and especially New England doesn't understand the South, and vice versa, in ways that reflect a lot of what is going on.  I'm sure Alabama is on another level than NC as NC I think is considered borderline Deep South while Alabama might be the capital of the Deep South...I guess along with Georgia.  Florida is its own world and maybe to a lesser degree, Louisiana....and how could I forget Mississippi.

I guess I will add one thing.  You might be too young, but from my perspective the US Senate is a big deal...and it has changed.  There used to be very reasonable, distinguised, and rational people on both sides who highly valued their relationships and the dignity of the Senate...John Warner, Warren Rudman, William Cohen, George Mitchell, Sam Nunn, etc, etc.  There were still pockets of extremism on both sides but that group in the middle was solid as a rock and genuinely tried to work together and truly cared about their country.  There were some other ones from the South too, including one who may still be one of your senators, who flipped some years ago. 

I know and respect that we don't talk politics on this board. I will just say there has ALWAYS been regional differences and misunderstandings in this country. From Day 1 of the founding.

That's not really what's going on right now and I'll leave it at that.

Quote from: Hopkins92 on September 22, 2023, 05:43:22 PM
I know and respect that we don't talk politics on this board. I will just say there has ALWAYS been regional differences and misunderstandings in this country. From Day 1 of the founding.

That's not really what's going on right now and I'll leave it at that.

I'll stick to my comment about the Senate past and present, but yes, what's going on now is frankly unimaginable...and it's the elephant in the room almost anywhere you go, including probably here, unless one is sure they are with very like-minded folks.

Any updates on Mary Wash vs Messiah?

Are most D3 regions getting the same weather or just Northeastern seaboard?

Tomorrow @ TBTTIHF has been brought forward to midday

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 22, 2023, 06:40:10 PM
Any updates on Mary Wash vs Messiah?

Are most D3 regions getting the same weather or just Northeastern seaboard?

No rain issues in Region X as far as I know, but Texas has excessive heat warnings with temperatures around 98 in San Antonio right now, and similar temperatures in Dallas and Houston.  Tomorrow, it will be about 95 degrees at kickoff when Hardin-Simmons plays at St. Thomas in Houston at 2:30 pm tomorrow and it will be about 100 degrees when Trinity plays at Concordia in Austin at 5:00 pm.  Texas boys are generally used to that kind of heat, but it can still take a toll on your fitness.  I wouldn't be shocked if they move some of those TX games later in the evening if possible.

Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on September 22, 2023, 04:09:44 PM

Quote from: paclassic89 on September 22, 2023, 03:02:37 PM
Messiah played Stevens on turf in the 2017 NCAA sectional semis.  Game was moved from Shoemaker due to heavy rain

Definitely happened, but, and I am only going on what I can see, the two turf fields seem to not have soccer markings. https://gomessiah.com/facilities/lacrosse-turf/9 and https://gomessiah.com/facilities/anderson-field/5  May be other fields that they have access. https://www.google.com/maps/place/Messiah+University/@40.1530403,-76.9885789,614m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x89c8e8c0b22d487d:0x85a6affc49f5bcd3!8m2!3d40.1576139!4d-76.9869025!16zL20vMDIxbmJy?entry=ttu 

However, they may have a way.

Yes, I know for a fact (I was there) that the 2017 Sectional at Messiah was moved to the turf Lacrosse Field.  You are correct that the lacrosse field has no soccer markings.  Looking at the highlight videos (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsKGygNDkhM, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skhODRk16NE), I'm guessing the 6-yd and 18-yd boxes were marked the old-fashioned way with chalk.  They are hard to see in the Sweet 16 match vs. Stevens, but easier to pick out in the Elite 8 match vs. Rochester.  Given they had moved the games to the lacrosse field in 2017, I think many of us figured we'd keep the 2018 Sectionals at home again.

A few results of note in Region X:

Trinity crushed Mary Hardin-Baylor 6-1.  This was a dominant performance and a statement game by Trinity, which raced out to a 4-0 lead at halftime.  MHB has not been the same this year and falls to 2-3-1, but they had just beaten Austin 4-1 a week ago and lost to Texas Lutheran and St. Thomas by closer 2-0 scores, so I didn't foresee this kind of a score.

St. Thomas crushed McMurray 6-0.  This was one I could foresee as long as St. Thomas took the game seriously.  And they did.  Taty Aleman had 2 goals and an assist in 54 minutes (he now has 8 goals and 2 assists in 6 games) and Daniel Flores also had a brace. 

Texas Lutheran beat Hardin-Simmons 2-1 to go to 8-0 on the season.  TLU was facing a stronger opponent than Trinity and St. Thomas did, but, as usual, they did just (barely) enough to win, scoring the winning goal on a PK in the 88th minute.  They only took 5 shots the whole game.  On the other hand, Trinity could only tie Hardin-Simmons last week (2-2), so Texas Lutheran's narrower margin of victory than its conference rivals is not really concerning.  Nevertheless, until they face Trinity and St. Thomas in SCAC play, it's hard to know just how good TLU is this year. 

Southwestern 1 - Concordia TX 0.  Southwestern goes to 4-0-3 on the year, so I think it's fair to include them in the national perspective thread.  Nevertheless, they haven't really proven anything other than they are better than the NWC teams they beat (Willamette and Whitman) and the ASC teams.  The SCAC is just loaded this year, so Southwestern may be the odd team out.

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 22, 2023, 03:30:32 PM

Quote from: paclassic89 on September 22, 2023, 03:02:37 PM
Messiah played Stevens on turf in the 2017 NCAA sectional semis.  Game was moved from Shoemaker due to heavy rain

The University of Rochester men's soccer team advanced to the Final Four for the first time in school history after posting a 2-1 victory over second-ranked Messiah College in the NCAA Division III Sectional Final on Sunday afternoon.

This is the first time Rochester has beaten Messiah in the NCAA Division III playoffs. The Falcons won the first four meetings, including a 2-0 victory last year on their home field in Grantham, PA. That sent Messiah to the Final Four and the Falcons won the NCAA title.

The 2018 sectional was supposed to return to Messiah, but a late-week snowstorm made the soccer field unplayable and the tournament was re-directed to Rochester on Thursday evening.

So Rochester is key because Messiah beat UR in the Elite 8 in 2017 AT MESSIAH to return to the Final Four (where they almost never or maybe never have lost).  And then the very next year you see the above when both met again in the Elite 8.

Like FW, I also attended those regional games on the turf field, including Rochester's win vs Amherst (which Amherst lost, IMO, b/c they parked the bus after getting the first goal). IMO, however, the key difference between the 2017 and 2018 games with Rochester, was not the location—historically the Falcons have done as well on the road in the tournament as they have at home (indeed, they lost the semi-final to Redlands at home in 2001). The decisive factor was, that AA MF Samuel Ruiz Plaza pulled a hamstring and couldn't play. He was the grease for that machine, which got the ball up the field to Nick West (need I say more?), who still scored the Falcons' only goal I think with his head that game. Rochester put more pressure on the Falcon backfield than the previous year, and without Ruiz Plaza to counter that move (you just couldn't take the ball from him), they struggled to run their offense.

I welcome alternative assessments.

Hello Falconer, my old friend and foe...As you know well there is no fish in our little pond that gets caught more easily than me, but I would ask you to try to respond as though you were responding to a random, anonymous poster.

I don't have an alternative assessment.  I am curious about your assessment methodology.  Did you factor in an injury report/assessment of Rochester for those encounters?  And given the talent and depth of Messiah (not being sarcastic), do you not believe they had enough to prevail when missing a Samuel Ruiz Plaza or Groothoff?

Excluding the very occasional freak loss early or midseason against an obviously inferior opponent, what important losses or loss since 2010 would you endorse as legit, meaning without the headline being a Falcon injury or injuries, poor and clumsy refereeing, opponent aggression/shenanigans, bad field or weather conditions that impacted Messiah more than the opponent, and/or, etc, etc?

Genuinely would also love to hear your take on whether your perspective has shifted any in terms of Messiah perhaps not being THE singular clear and obvious favorite and having to settle for perennially being one among a handful or two handfuls of programs with relatively similar chances for prevailing?  And in that context, is your expectation, putting aside any potential mitigating factors, that the Falcons can and should win every year or almost every year?  Along the same lines, as a keen observer, do you think the landscape of D3 soccer at the higher ends has changed, or not?

Great broadcast of the Messiah game, hahaha. You get what you pay for.

Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on September 23, 2023, 11:15:10 AM
Great broadcast of the Messiah game, hahaha. You get what you pay for.

This would never happen with Flo Sports.

great job by the guy wiping the window! you the real MVP!

Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on September 23, 2023, 11:15:10 AM
Great broadcast of the Messiah game, hahaha. You get what you pay for.

Back on. Like watching a game in the rain from your car because you forgot your raingear.  Both team need to go back in time to use screw on studs!

Quote from: NEPAFAN on September 23, 2023, 11:19:48 AM
great job by the guy wiping the window! you the real MVP!

Keep it up, Sponge Bob! Keep smearing.  Maybe in the second half they can play in their galoshes. Commentators are talking into tin cans.

Mary Wash needs a timeout..

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 23, 2023, 11:37:59 AM
Mary Wash needs a timeout..

Yup, or at least the parts I've been able to see with the feed crapping out so many times. Question, do you think the teams will sharpen their skates for the second half?  A lot of slipping an sliding.  Field could be one big slip and slide by the end.

Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on September 23, 2023, 11:44:07 AM

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 23, 2023, 11:37:59 AM
Mary Wash needs a timeout..

Yup, or at least the parts I've been able to see with the feed crapping out so many times. Question, do you think the teams will sharpen their skates for the second half?  A lot of slipping an sliding.  Field could be one big slip and slide by the end.

Might not want to play back to the keeper unless the keeper is away from his goal.

Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on September 23, 2023, 11:48:59 AM

Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on September 23, 2023, 11:44:07 AM

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 23, 2023, 11:37:59 AM
Mary Wash needs a timeout..

Yup, or at least the parts I've been able to see with the feed crapping out so many times. Question, do you think the teams will sharpen their skates for the second half?  A lot of slipping an sliding.  Field could be one big slip and slide by the end.

Might not want to play back to the keeper unless the keeper is away from his goal.

Would like to see this game on dry turf.  Messiah had a good first half and might have had some goals with dry ground, but it is what it is. Got to roll, life goes on.  Will try to catch parts of the 2nd half.

Instant reaction...

In the infamous words of Dennis Green, regarding Messiah, "they are who we thought they were!"  Great team, will be very tough to take them out, and Lefever #11 gets overshadowed by McDonald but might be the key to their whole team, at least offensively.  He's made huge game winning plays in huge games for years...and why not, as this is 13th season on the pitch for the Falcons.

Not worried about Mary Wash at all.  They are very good and if these teams meet again this 1-0 loss will be a mild advantage.  Not sure we'll be able to figure out if Kirkland and Berg were shut down more by the Falcon defense or the weather.  Berg did miss a shot from about 8 yards out in the first half that he buries 8 out of 10 times....but Kirkland for me was pretty non-existent.  Castillo was good but would have had more impact in better conditions.  I didn't think the Eagles were intimidated at all, and why would they be after the gauntlet they went through last November.

Overall fantastic job by the long-term announcing crew per usual, esp given the issues encountered broadcast-wise...but of course as they almost always do without fail they drop their grade from an A+ to an A- with one of their classic meltdowns in the dying seconds of the game when the ref awarded a free kick to MW with 2 secs left (from distance, so not something the taker was going to be to score on directly).  It is stunning how quickly those guys can turn from the most reasonable and fair guys on earth to rabid, crazed, "omg, we're getting cheating again."  After another quick swipe at the ref (who they had complimented for 89 minutes) after the 2 secs expired, and of course with the win in hand, they reverted back to being generous with everyone.

As a parent of a Messiah player, I was at the game. The first half conditions were very playable but obviously not ideal. The last 20 minutes of the 2nd half were very difficult for both sides. MW is a fantastic team and the GK was outstanding. They are clearly a Top 5 team.  That being stated, both teams had to play in the same conditions and MU was the better side today. They were still able to play their style, especially in the first half. Was a joy to watch such high level soccer even in very difficult conditions, especially the last 20 minutes. 

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 23, 2023, 09:41:34 AM
I don't have an alternative assessment.  I am curious about your assessment methodology.  Did you factor in an injury report/assessment of Rochester for those encounters?  And given the talent and depth of Messiah (not being sarcastic), do you not believe they had enough to prevail when missing a Samuel Ruiz Plaza or Groothoff?

I said at the time, going into the tournament, that I liked the Falcons' chances to repeat, but that there were 3 key players who needed to avoid injury, in this order: Nick West (duh), Samuel Ruiz Plaza, and Cooper Robbins. So, when I saw Ruiz Plaza on crutches before regional, I figured the gig was up. He'd been the engine of the offense for all four years, starting every game he was healthy since the third game of his FR year (he had been a substitute at the beginning). In the games he had previously missed during that period (there were several), his absence was obvious. Did I factor in injuries for Rochester? No. Their most important player, Ruiz Plaza's counterpart, Bryce Ikeda, was not injured and had his usual standout game. I credit the Rochester coaches for the successful game plan, but I doubt it would have been quite as successful had Ruiz Plaza not missed the whole game.

You mentioned Luke Groothoff, who was a FR and started the whole season--at CB, however, not his natural position of MF. And, he was voted AA at that position. Two reasons for that decision: Ruiz Plaza was awfully effective, and if it ain't broke you don't fix it; also, an AA CB who was perhaps the fastest player on the 2017 team, had just graduated. There was a huge hole to be filled on the backline, and Groothoff filled it. Thus, he wasn't really available to replace Ruiz Plaza in the regionals, and he hadn't yet had collegiate experience in that role.

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 23, 2023, 09:41:34 AM
Excluding the very occasional freak loss early or midseason against an obviously inferior opponent, what important losses or loss since 2010 would you endorse as legit, meaning without the headline being a Falcon injury or injuries, poor and clumsy refereeing, opponent aggression/shenanigans, bad field or weather conditions that impacted Messiah more than the opponent, and/or, etc, etc?

Well, PN, I'd start by saying (as I have said before) that I don't regard the Falcon title in 2010 as legitimate. Their last-minute, game-tying goal at the end of regulation should have been called back, b/c the player who scored it (Dan Squire) got a huge advantage by knocking an opponent down. So, my book has 10, not 11, national titles for the Falcons. They were (IMO) defeated that day by a better team. So, there the tables are turned: I think Lynchburg lost b/c of a hugely important non-call, from which Messiah benefited enormously. I think that my saying so over the years ought to count as the loudest answer I could give to your question. The Falcons lost that game (as far as I'm concerned), despite officiating that hurt their opponent.

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 23, 2023, 09:41:34 AM
Excluding the very occasional freak loss early or midseason against an obviously inferior opponent, what important losses or loss since 2010 would you endorse as legit, meaning without the headline being a Falcon injury or injuries, poor and clumsy refereeing, opponent aggression/shenanigans, bad field or weather conditions that impacted Messiah more than the opponent, and/or, etc, etc?

A further reply, PN, is that (as I said at the time) the Falcons had a very sub-par season (not an individual game) in 2015, the year they imploded after losing that game to Tufts. Of course, they lost a ton of talent to graduation, plus Brandt Jr transferred out (before returning to help win the title in 2017), but--no excuses here--they just played poorly several times. They didn't get a tournament bid for the first time since the Cretaceous period, and they didn't deserve one. To be fair to those players, the 2 biggest future stars in the FR class that year, Nick West and Ruiz Plaza, had not yet fully emerged as such. And other future stars, Kirby Robbins and Colby Thomas, were SO. I bet you don't remember the player who was the Falcons' leading scorer that season--Danny Rowe. He had a pretty good year (9 G, 3 A, 3 GW), but not the kind of year that a Falcon top scorer typically has. A lot of teams were better than the Falcons that season.

What a finish in Lexington.  Turned on the end of the game in between errands and saw W&L score 2 in the final minute plus to come from behind. 2-1.

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 23, 2023, 09:41:34 AM
Genuinely would also love to hear your take on whether your perspective has shifted any in terms of Messiah perhaps not being THE singular clear and obvious favorite and having to settle for perennially being one among a handful or two handfuls of programs with relatively similar chances for prevailing?  And in that context, is your expectation, putting aside any potential mitigating factors, that the Falcons can and should win every year or almost every year?  Along the same lines, as a keen observer, do you think the landscape of D3 soccer at the higher ends has changed, or not?

Finally, PN, I never expected the Falcons to win every year, or almost every year. I did actually expect them to win two years when they didn't--the Tufts year (2014), when the Falcons (as you've said) were the best team in D3 and Tufts wasn't that close; and, in 2007, when perhaps the single greatest team in Falcon history, led by four-time AA and POY Kai Kasiguran, AA Patrick Lenehan, and AA and future POY J. D. Binger, not to mention future AA and POY Geoff Pezon, lost to a great Trinity team, 1-0, when a forward who had to move back to replace an injured defender during the season stumbled and gave Trinity's top-notch striker an open look. (It's also true that Kasiguran played hurt most or all of that season, such that keen observers could see he wasn't quite as good; and, that Lenehan also played hurt in the Final Four, yet Trinity's coach told Brandt afterwards that Trinity still had no answer for him.) They also won a few times I didn't expect it, including (obviously) that first title in 2000 and the next in 2002. Nor did I expect 2012, when so much of the talent was still only rising sophomores.

As for the changing landscape, I agree entirely with those who've already said that parity is now the reality. To some extent, I'd compare the Falcons' run from 2000-2013 with UCLA from 1964-1975--and for the same reasons. Both teams had truly great coaches, who stressed character development over winning (yet won far more than their share); both teams dominated everyone else at recruiting (I think you said yourself once that the 2012-14 Falcons had 3 players, each one of them better than anyone in all of NESCAC), at a time when there was less overall talent in D3, so that the advantage Messiah had in getting players who actually wanted to attend a school like Messiah rather than a NESCAC was more pronounced; and, both teams have (still) won exactly 11 national titles, but just one each since the "golden" years.

I know you'll respond soon, and voluminously. I might not have any further comments on these themes.

As for today's game, I agree that Messiah outplayed an excellent team and deserved to win, despite the terrible conditions that hurt both teams about equally. Many times, players lost their footing while having possession or while defending the ball. The scariest moment of that type, for Falcon fans, involved the keeper falling down. Both keepers played well, despite conditions, though there was more sustained pressure on the MW keeper, who thus came up big more often. The Falcon keeper's best play involved a fully-extended, high-on-the-air, one-handed deflection of a very dangerous ball over the top of the defense.

I would not see today's game as definitive, given the conditions; Messiah isn't necessarily better (at this  point in the season) than MW. But, they were clearly better today. With a bit less bad luck, both teams might have scored, but the Falcons would have scored at least 2 more than they did. In the second half, in addition to the great goal by Lefever, a ball hit the post and another hit the crossbar. A third was a screamer, but right at the keeper--who should be commended for holding it fast in any conditions, let alone those applicable today.

Colorado College 3 - Christopher Newport 2

Great win for CC.  The game was tight in the first half with CC gaining the lead 1-0 on a PK.  In the second half, CC blitzed CNU, breaking out to a 3-0 lead on a brace 11 seconds apart by Oliver Ramirez, whose pace down the middle clearly exceeded the CNU defenders.  Then a curious thing happened.  CNU pulled their GK at 3-0 down at the 67th minute and put in a senior who had only played 16 minutes all season (and I think none for a few years before that according to the play by play guy) and those 16 minutes were yesterday when CNU won big.  It looked like a giant white flag and a reward for a kid in his final season.  Instead, within 3 minutes CNU scores and less than a minute later CNU scores again to make it 3-2.  I'm not saying the new GK had anything to do with it, but for some reason the Captains were really energized and revived and the GK switch didn't hurt and may have helped.  Who knows?  Either way, Colorado College regrouped and weathered the storm until Ramirez was able to come back on after a quick breather and provide a counter-attacking threat to see the game out.

As the play-by-play guy noted, CC is one of those teams that runs hot and cold.  This game, they played like the team that tied Ohio Northern in Ada rather than the team that lost to UT Dallas in Dallas.  For CNU, I think this was a case study on the difficulty of playing two games in a row at altitude with the second game against the home side.  Day two is always going to be tough wherever you play and at altitude that's actually when the effects become worse.

Washington & Lee 2 - 1 Shenandoah. The first half was shambolic, with Shenandoah outshooting the Generals 10 to 8, and scoring a goal. A switch was flipped at halftime, and the Generals played like the great team they have been, outshot Shenandoah 16 - 1, and scored twice, first in the 88th minute, and then again in the 89th, with 8 seconds remaining. We will have to see if this better version of W&L holds.

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 23, 2023, 01:16:15 PM

Overall fantastic job by the long-term announcing crew per usual, esp given the issues encountered broadcast-wise...but of course as they almost always do without fail they drop their grade from an A+ to an A- with one of their classic meltdowns in the dying seconds of the game when the ref awarded a free kick to MW with 2 secs left (from distance, so not something the taker was going to be to score on directly).  It is stunning how quickly those guys can turn from the most reasonable and fair guys on earth to rabid, crazed, "omg, we're getting cheating again."  After another quick swipe at the ref (who they had complimented for 89 minutes) after the 2 secs expired, and of course with the win in hand, they reverted back to being generous with everyone.

Yeah, very funny and obviously having a good time which they should. Also every time Messiah had the ball in the 18, they sounded like it was a sure goal. Incredibly tough to follow the feed with the scuba camera, but like I said you get what you paid for.  Messiah definitely played well and got the result. UMW keeper kept it a one goal game.

Calvin defeats JCU 5-3. Was not able to attend or watch, so don't have many details. I know JCU has a lot of weapons on offense, so their 3 goals doesn't surprise me, although 1 was an own goal. Nice to see Calvin's offense wake up a bit.

Enough news to warrant this thread...

Not a good day for some of big names in Great Lakes...already covered the Kenyon debacle in the other thread.

Denison lost 1-0 to fellow Great Lakes squad CWRU at CWRU.  Very good win fcor CWRU as the Spartans continue good form, but Denison is no longer unbeaten.

Ohio Northern got upended at Rose Hulman....also not that surprising given that Rose Hulman is solid and ONU must be absolutely exhausted after a non-conference that now looks like is was too aggressive.

Also not surprising but significant...Calvin rebounds to best John Carroll 5-3 in a wild one.  I only saw the last 20-25 minutes and wasn't watching closely, but Schau had another wonder goal to put Calvin up either 3-2 or 4-2...lead stretched to 5-2.  If you didn't know the score and were watching at least from that point JCU repeatedly getting off inside the 18 shot with real pace, and Calvin looked to be barely holding on.  Very impressed with how JCU battled to the end...I mean the last 10 minutes was like a shooting gallery...as their passion and determination rose they also bordered on boiling over into self-destructive chippiness.  My opinion if JCU has not moved at all.  Calvin came in wounded too and played more desperate than I usually see them, resorting to taking down JCU players who were about to break free.  Saw at least one yellow for that.  Highly competitive match.  But despite believing the Blue Streaks are still a legit contender they are now 5-2-1.  Btw, that Chris Schau for Calvin is a hell of a college soccer player.

I do think Otterbein rallied to beat Hanover, but I could have that backwards.  And finally, Capital came from behind to nip DePauw 2-1.

Occidental 2 - Redlands 0

This was the big game in the SCIAC tonight and Occidental lived up to its preseason number one ranking, beating Redlands on the road to hand the Bulldogs their first loss of the season.  The first goal started with a great chipped pass by Vicente Navarro to his onrushing former club teammate Tyler Na-Nakornpanom in the box.  Na-Nakornpanom took it down and hit a beautiful shot from the far left side of the box to the far right of the goal.  The second was a bit of a lucky bounce as a shot by an Oxy player was deflected off a Redlands defender to the feet of another Oxy attacker who pushed it passed the GK.  Redlands had its chances, but Oxy's defense was on its game and I thought its GK Riley Nyhan had one of the more complete games I have seen from him, coming off his line for dangerous crosses and potential breakaways.  Oxy moves to 7-1 overall and 4-0 in the SCIAC and Redlands drops to 6-1 and 2-1 in conference.  You probably have to think about including Oxy in the national rankings even though this was arguably their first win against a quality opponent.  Oxy's only loss was to Texas Lutheran in its first game of the season.

Pacific Lutheran 9 - George Fox 0

The Lutes never took its foot off the gas on the truck that ran over George Fox in this game.  Not bad marksmanship when you take 15 shots and score 9 of them.  Pacific Lutheran has scored 19 goals in its last three games (4-1 over Whitworth, 6-0 over Whitman, and 9-0 over George Fox) and its loss to Emory, tie with CMS, and win over Colorado College in Colorado Springs may start looking better in retrospect.  I still think the Lutes need to win the NWC to get in the tourney, but if they keep brutalizing the rest of the NWC, they may creep into the national conversation.  Craig Johnson now has 8 goals in 7 games.

Is there a consensus about an East Coast bias?  How do teams from outside the East perform in the postseason?

Quote from: Freddyfud on September 24, 2023, 08:42:58 AM
Is there a consensus about an East Coast bias?  How do teams from outside the East perform in the postseason?

Ask these guys:

(https://assets3.cbsnewsstatic.com/hub/i/r/2022/12/05/48ae6666-a264-4b2b-bb8d-efa92bf62fc1/thumbnail/1200x630/20625597822bb4d7f374ca23d072eb72/uchicago-mens-soccer-team.jpg)

Quote from: calvin_grad on September 23, 2023, 08:09:51 PM
Calvin defeats JCU 5-3. Was not able to attend or watch, so don't have many details. I know JCU has a lot of weapons on offense, so their 3 goals doesn't surprise me, although 1 was an own goal. Nice to see Calvin's offense wake up a bit.

I believe the video is still available on their You Tube channel. Watched the whole thing - pretty entertaining game - all 5 Calvin goals are worth seeing - I don't think the JCU keeper could have done a thing differently to stop them. Maybe his defenders stepping to the ball quicker - but those bangers from outside the 18 were golasos.

Quote from: Freddyfud on September 24, 2023, 08:42:58 AM
Is there a consensus about an East Coast bias?  How do teams from outside the East perform in the postseason?

I don't know about an east coast "bias,"  but Region X schools definitely have it rougher.  The biggest structural obstacle for Region X teams is even getting to the postseason.  There are only four conferences in an area that roughly covers half the country (ASC, SCAC, NWC, and SCIAC), plus one team from the Coast-to-Coast conference (UC Santa Cruz).  In some years, only the champion of each will qualify, which usually makes for a neat little four team pod in the first two rounds and only one team advancing out of that pod to the third round.  In other years, Region X has one Pool C bid and so there is one team added to a pod somewhere else (typically the upper midwest).  By contrast, in parts of the mid-atlantic and northeast, there are so many teams and regions where conferences overlap that some top conferences can get 3-5+ teams into the tournament pretty regularly.  In Region X, you can be a team that regularly contends for a conference title and go four years without ever qualifying for the NCAA tournament because your team's strength-of-schedule is never high enough in comparison with the east coast schools that can't help but play a lot of top ranked teams.  Players have to be satisfied with a goal of making the conference tournament if they choose a school in Region X because there's a decent chance that's as far as they will ever get.

From the perspective of succeeding in the postseason, there's a structural bias in the sense that more game sites are on the east coast, which means non-east coast teams have to travel more than other teams.  Travel isn't determinative of who wins of course.  Chicago won last year.  Nevertheless, I would distinguish between far west teams and midwest or southwest teams in talking about travel burdens.  Not only is the travel time half as much for a midwest or southwest team, but the one hour v. three hour time difference makes a big difference.  The farthest a far west team (and only one far west team) will usually get is the third round since one team will win the Region X pod.  Winning that third round game is really rough given the travel. For example, in 2021, Redlands lost in the third round against eventual champion Conn College 1-0 in Medford, Mass six days after beating Pacific Lutheran in a game held in Tacoma, WA.  That's a lot of miles to travel in a quick period, plus the added difficulty of the three hour time difference and the temperature difference between Tacoma, Redlands, and Medford, MA.  In 2022, St. Thomas TX made it to the third round (but didn't have the earlier travel Redlands did because the pod was in Texas) and lost to eventual champion Chicago 4-1 at Chicago.  There was less travel and no time difference compared to a far west team, but still a significant temperature difference and home field advantage for Chicago.

Beyond the simple reality that a far west team will have harder travel demands than an east cost team after the first couple of rounds (and even travel within Region X in the first two rounds can be rougher than any travel an east coast team will endure during those rounds), the Final Four is usually held on the east coast.  So, if a far west team did make it that far, it would have a longer flight and a time difference against most opponents.  The last seven times the Final Four has been held, it has been in either Salem, VA or Greensboro, NC.  There was a period from 2009 through 2015 when the Final Four was held in San Antonio or Kansas City, which came closer to equalizing the travel and time difference burdens (although far west teams still had more of a time difference), but the only time the Final Four was actually held on the west coast was in 1991 at UC San Diego, which UCSD won  In fairness, UCSD (which since transitioned to DII and now to DI) also won the national championship in 1988 in Rochester and in 1993 in Williamstown, both of which have to be some of the most extreme travel and temperature difference for a team from San Diego at that time of year.  So, it's not like a far west team can't win when they have to travel.  In this century, Redlands made it to the final four in 2001 when it was held at Messiah and UC Santa Cruz made it in 2004 in Greensboro, NC, but both teams lost in the finals.  When dinosaurs still roamed the Earth, CMS lost in the finals to UNC Greensboro in 1983 at Greensboro and UCSD lost to UNC Greensboro, again at Greensboro, in 1986, but those are the only other times a far west team has made it that far.

One interesting note is that the 2024 Final Four is scheduled to be in Las Vegas, a city and state that doesn't have a single D3 athletics program (UNLV is serving as host).  It's not exactly the west coast, but close enough and the closest it has been since 1991.  If a SCIAC team was picking a year in which they would go for broke with transfers, high priced coaching hires, and trips to improve strength-of-schedule and to get the boys ready for prime time, that might be it.  It might be the only Final Four in my lifetime that I will be able to get to fairly easily by car (since I wasn't living in LA in 1991).

Quote from: Domino1195 on September 24, 2023, 09:53:06 AM

Quote from: calvin_grad on September 23, 2023, 08:09:51 PM
Calvin defeats JCU 5-3. Was not able to attend or watch, so don't have many details. I know JCU has a lot of weapons on offense, so their 3 goals doesn't surprise me, although 1 was an own goal. Nice to see Calvin's offense wake up a bit.

I believe the video is still available on their You Tube channel. Watched the whole thing - pretty entertaining game - all 5 Calvin goals are worth seeing - I don't think the JCU keeper could have done a thing differently to stop them. Maybe his defenders stepping to the ball quicker - but those bangers from outside the 18 were golasos.

Calvin may have squeaked out a victory in the score, but JCU had an absolute blowout in sportswriting following the game. The vividness! The pathos! The absurd metaphors! Do yourself a favor and give it a read.

https://jcusports.com/news/2023/9/23/mens-soccer-falls-at-11-calvin-in-goal-filled-match.aspx

Quote from: Dark Knight on September 24, 2023, 01:09:01 PM

Quote from: Domino1195 on September 24, 2023, 09:53:06 AM

Quote from: calvin_grad on September 23, 2023, 08:09:51 PM
Calvin defeats JCU 5-3. Was not able to attend or watch, so don't have many details. I know JCU has a lot of weapons on offense, so their 3 goals doesn't surprise me, although 1 was an own goal. Nice to see Calvin's offense wake up a bit.

I believe the video is still available on their You Tube channel. Watched the whole thing - pretty entertaining game - all 5 Calvin goals are worth seeing - I don't think the JCU keeper could have done a thing differently to stop them. Maybe his defenders stepping to the ball quicker - but those bangers from outside the 18 were golasos.

Calvin may have squeaked out a victory in the score, but JCU had an absolute blowout in sportswriting following the game. The vividness! The pathos! The absurd metaphors! Do yourself a favor and give it a read.

https://jcusports.com/news/2023/9/23/mens-soccer-falls-at-11-calvin-in-goal-filled-match.aspx

LOL.  Gianluca strikes again!  Please listen to a JCU home game some time and tell me if you think they couldn't be the same person.  He's the JCU PbP guy...and is really good at that.

I have nearly completed the formal paperwork to transfer my allegiance to Bowdoin.

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 24, 2023, 01:53:03 PM
I have nearly completed the formal paperwork to transfer my allegiance to Bowdoin.

Say what you will...but that was a convincing win by the Polar Bears on Cole Field in the beautiful Purple Valley of Western Mass.

Quote from: northman on September 24, 2023, 01:59:04 PM

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 24, 2023, 01:53:03 PM
I have nearly completed the formal paperwork to transfer my allegiance to Bowdoin.

Say what you will...but that was a convincing win by the Polar Bears on Cole Field in the beautiful Purple Valley of Western Mass.

Very... Very... Convincing....

SC.

Quote from: northman on September 24, 2023, 01:59:04 PM

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 24, 2023, 01:53:03 PM
I have nearly completed the formal paperwork to transfer my allegiance to Bowdoin.

Say what you will...but that was a convincing win by the Polar Bears on Cole Field in the beautiful Purple Valley of Western Mass.

Not sure what "say what you will" means, but yes, Bowdoin overall had a great weekend, grabbing 4 points on the road against fellow heavyweights, and esp after being down 2-0 to Midd within 15 minutes and from there putting in 4 while holding Midd without another goal and blanking Williams.  I think just a couple of days ago I said Bowdoin and Colby are my favorite NESCACs.  Bowdoin was the first school where we did a real tour kind of incidentially when we already were on vacation on the Maine coast.  Loved the school.  Also have maintained some fondness for Midd as my in-laws were 30 minutes away and son went to hockey camp there which, at least at the time in the early to mid 2000s, surely had the finest hockey rink in D3.

On a more pessimistic note, this place may not just be dying, but already dead.  Very minimal activity, during two big days of soccer, now 3-4 weeks into the season.  Maybe a few of us keep frantically trying to defibrillate the patient well past any meaningful chance of a revival.  There has been the suggestion that traffic and interest would increase if some of the more active posters like myself took up less space and grabbed some pine.  I don't think that is it, but certainly anything is worth trying at this juncture.  The medium in part may be just too anachronistic, but I don't know of other options where posters can react and respond and a whole community of lurkers and posters can see the content and jump in or not. 

3-4 weeks in and we haven't heard a single word about D3soccer.com.  We knew last year was the last year for incumbent owners, but we literally have not seen anything about the status of ownership, why there hasn't been a transfer, and why a site can't be created with D3soccer.com or something very similar updated to the 2020s that includes a good message board platform.

Mundane question, but does it still take forever for a new poster to get approved? My recollection is that the moderator (Jim Matson?) isn't around anymore, so I don't know who does that.  Seems like a time lag is enough of a barrier to entry for someone to just forget about it if they are lurking and thinking of adding something at that moment.

Quote from: Dark Knight on September 24, 2023, 01:09:01 PM

Quote from: Domino1195 on September 24, 2023, 09:53:06 AM

Quote from: calvin_grad on September 23, 2023, 08:09:51 PM
Calvin defeats JCU 5-3. Was not able to attend or watch, so don't have many details. I know JCU has a lot of weapons on offense, so their 3 goals doesn't surprise me, although 1 was an own goal. Nice to see Calvin's offense wake up a bit.

I believe the video is still available on their You Tube channel. Watched the whole thing - pretty entertaining game - all 5 Calvin goals are worth seeing - I don't think the JCU keeper could have done a thing differently to stop them. Maybe his defenders stepping to the ball quicker - but those bangers from outside the 18 were golasos.

Calvin may have squeaked out a victory in the score, but JCU had an absolute blowout in sportswriting following the game. The vividness! The pathos! The absurd metaphors! Do yourself a favor and give it a read.

https://jcusports.com/news/2023/9/23/mens-soccer-falls-at-11-calvin-in-goal-filled-match.aspx

That's terrific!  Thanks for sharing it.

This doesn't seem like a Facebook gang for a lot of great reasons. Buttt

How about a Facebook group?? I'm in several for also very extraneous topics. I generally like it a lot.  Just an idea. This quoting stuff is crazy plus you get to say like, love, sad etc with one click.

Quote from: Kuiper on September 24, 2023, 03:49:27 PM
Mundane question, but does it still take forever for a new poster to get approved? My recollection is that the moderator (Jim Matson?) isn't around anymore, so I don't know who does that.  Seems like a time lag is enough of a barrier to entry for someone to just forget about it if they are lurking and thinking of adding something at that moment.

Someone named Pat Coleman approved my request.  Nice enough to respond when I followed up.  Took me several weeks but I didn't mind--it's a volunteer after all.

Quote from: Freddyfud on September 24, 2023, 05:01:25 PM

Quote from: Kuiper on September 24, 2023, 03:49:27 PM
Mundane question, but does it still take forever for a new poster to get approved? My recollection is that the moderator (Jim Matson?) isn't around anymore, so I don't know who does that.  Seems like a time lag is enough of a barrier to entry for someone to just forget about it if they are lurking and thinking of adding something at that moment.

Someone named Pat Coleman approved my request.  Nice enough to respond when I followed up.  Took me several weeks but I didn't mind--it's a volunteer after all.

Same here, 11+ years ago.  Actually had to re-do my essay (twice)....Explain in 500 words or less "Why allowing me to become a member with posting privileges will contribute to the common good?"

I'm sorry, but how is this not absurd?

Quote from: Freddyfud on September 24, 2023, 05:01:25 PM

Quote from: Kuiper on September 24, 2023, 03:49:27 PM
Mundane question, but does it still take forever for a new poster to get approved? My recollection is that the moderator (Jim Matson?) isn't around anymore, so I don't know who does that.  Seems like a time lag is enough of a barrier to entry for someone to just forget about it if they are lurking and thinking of adding something at that moment.

Someone named Pat Coleman approved my request.  Nice enough to respond when I followed up.  Took me several weeks but I didn't mind--it's a volunteer after all.

He's not a volunteer. He owns this site. And he's a good guy. Nobody, and I mean nobody, has done more for the fanbase of NCAA Division III sports over the past quarter-century than has Pat Coleman.

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 24, 2023, 03:37:29 PM


On a more pessimistic note, this place may not just be dying, but already dead.  Very minimal activity, during two big days of soccer, now 3-4 weeks into the season.  Maybe a few of us keep frantically trying to defibrillate the patient well past any meaningful chance of a revival.  There has been the suggestion that traffic and interest would increase if some of the more active posters like myself took up less space and grabbed some pine.  I don't think that is it, but certainly anything is worth trying at this juncture.  The medium in part may be just too anachronistic, but I don't know of other options where posters can react and respond and a whole community of lurkers and posters can see the content and jump in or not. 

3-4 weeks in and we haven't heard a single word about D3soccer.com.  We knew last year was the last year for incumbent owners, but we literally have not seen anything about the status of ownership, why there hasn't been a transfer, and why a site can't be created with D3soccer.com or something very similar updated to the 2020s that includes a good message board platform.

You may have neard crickets because there is no transfer. Who wants to take this on? I can't imagine the site traffic and advertising covered the costs.

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 24, 2023, 05:34:01 PM

Quote from: Freddyfud on September 24, 2023, 05:01:25 PM

Quote from: Kuiper on September 24, 2023, 03:49:27 PM
Mundane question, but does it still take forever for a new poster to get approved? My recollection is that the moderator (Jim Matson?) isn't around anymore, so I don't know who does that.  Seems like a time lag is enough of a barrier to entry for someone to just forget about it if they are lurking and thinking of adding something at that moment.

Someone named Pat Coleman approved my request.  Nice enough to respond when I followed up.  Took me several weeks but I didn't mind--it's a volunteer after all.

Same here, 11+ years ago.  Actually had to re-do my essay (twice)....Explain in 500 words or less "Why allowing me to become a member with posting privileges will contribute to the common good?"

I'm sorry, but how is this not absurd?

I get the point of approval to make sure you're a real person and interested in being a participant.  Trolls can kill a site like this beyond all recognition.  Traffic may be a bit lower here, but it's not bad and the conversation and information is generally pretty good. I was just referring to the time lag, which I figured might have been a result of the moderator no longer being an active participant.

Incidentally, it's not like the declining traffic is unique to this discussion board.  BigSoccer has a college board that pretty much restricts itself to D1 talk in a snooty way, policed by its posters (although you could probably set up a D3 thread and they probably wouldn't bother you).  It has much less traffic than this site and maybe 1-2 active individual college threads (e.g., for the Akron Zips). 

Now, if you really want to supercharge participation in this discussion board, create a pinned D3 college soccer recruiting thread on the main page or even a separate section of the D3 boards for college recruiting and then have threads for each sport.  Parents are very active on college boards and they are all looking for information on getting an edge in the massively competitive college admissions process, especially for the uber competitive, and somewhat mysterious, elite academic schools that are in D3 (if you open it up to Ivy recruiting too, you will get parents-to-be asking questions about what type of ball or other athletic implement to drop in the crib when the baby arrives).  Once they are registered and graduate from prospective D3 parent to actual D3 parent, many of them may stick around to talk once their kids start playing.

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 24, 2023, 01:53:03 PM
I have nearly completed the formal paperwork to transfer my allegiance to Bowdoin.

Would love to have you join the Bowdoin fan base, even it it complicates our "under the radar" strategy!

Quote from: jknezek on September 24, 2023, 06:01:52 PM

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 24, 2023, 03:37:29 PM


On a more pessimistic note, this place may not just be dying, but already dead.  Very minimal activity, during two big days of soccer, now 3-4 weeks into the season.  Maybe a few of us keep frantically trying to defibrillate the patient well past any meaningful chance of a revival.  There has been the suggestion that traffic and interest would increase if some of the more active posters like myself took up less space and grabbed some pine.  I don't think that is it, but certainly anything is worth trying at this juncture.  The medium in part may be just too anachronistic, but I don't know of other options where posters can react and respond and a whole community of lurkers and posters can see the content and jump in or not. 

3-4 weeks in and we haven't heard a single word about D3soccer.com.  We knew last year was the last year for incumbent owners, but we literally have not seen anything about the status of ownership, why there hasn't been a transfer, and why a site can't be created with D3soccer.com or something very similar updated to the 2020s that includes a good message board platform.

You may have neard crickets because there is no transfer. Who wants to take this on? I can't imagine the site traffic and advertising covered the costs.

I'm sorry...I was feeling frustrated about the combination of what seemed likely even lower than usual participation (during a week that had some thrilling battles and indications of increasing parity), and then the @Freddyfud post came in about waiting weeks to get on, and I as sometimes do, I ended up conflating my irritation about posting participation with the registration process which I had forgotten about.  I have no misunderstanding about the contributions of the owners/developers of either D3soccer.com or the D3 boards.  Great people and no doubt already have done more than any of us will ever do. 

Specifically wrt the owners/caretakers/managers of D3soccer.com, I have extremely high regard for them and no confusion about their dedication, hours upon hours over many years of mostly thankless labor, and love for the game and the site.  They still frequent the boards and see the questions about where things stand.  And if things stand as is, like...we've had no takers or no takers whose needs we could meet, and we are (or are not) still open to suitors, then why not say that explicitly?  I know they care deeply about the site, and why wouldn't they after 20 or more years devoted to it.

Maybe it's true that no one or no set of persons is willing or has the resources to take the reins.  But maybe there are scenarios that would be viable.  For instance, I don't want responsibility for running it, but I might be interested in being one of 10 or 15 or whatever who could be minority owners together.  Maybe there is something going on behind scenes as we speak, but otherwise I have difficulty seeing how silence and ongoing limbo are helpful.

Quote from: Kuiper on September 22, 2023, 06:59:04 PM

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 22, 2023, 06:40:10 PM
Any updates on Mary Wash vs Messiah?

Are most D3 regions getting the same weather or just Northeastern seaboard?

No rain issues in Region X as far as I know, but Texas has excessive heat warnings with temperatures around 98 in San Antonio right now, and similar temperatures in Dallas and Houston.  Tomorrow, it will be about 95 degrees at kickoff when Hardin-Simmons plays at St. Thomas in Houston at 2:30 pm tomorrow and it will be about 100 degrees when Trinity plays at Concordia in Austin at 5:00 pm.  Texas boys are generally used to that kind of heat, but it can still take a toll on your fitness.  I wouldn't be shocked if they move some of those TX games later in the evening if possible.

I spoke way too soon about rain issues.  Apparently, there's a severe lightning storm near the Austin area and it led to the cancellation of the Southwestern game against Mary Hardin-Baylor that was supposed to take place at 7 pm central time and the cancellation in the 42nd minute of the Trinity game at Concordia (TX), which Trinity was leading 1-0.  My guess is that neither game will be made up since they are non-conference games.

Quote from: Kuiper on September 24, 2023, 10:56:59 PM

Quote from: Kuiper on September 22, 2023, 06:59:04 PM

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 22, 2023, 06:40:10 PM
Any updates on Mary Wash vs Messiah?

Are most D3 regions getting the same weather or just Northeastern seaboard?

No rain issues in Region X as far as I know, but Texas has excessive heat warnings with temperatures around 98 in San Antonio right now, and similar temperatures in Dallas and Houston.  Tomorrow, it will be about 95 degrees at kickoff when Hardin-Simmons plays at St. Thomas in Houston at 2:30 pm tomorrow and it will be about 100 degrees when Trinity plays at Concordia in Austin at 5:00 pm.  Texas boys are generally used to that kind of heat, but it can still take a toll on your fitness.  I wouldn't be shocked if they move some of those TX games later in the evening if possible.

I spoke way too soon about rain issues.  Apparently, there's a severe lightning storm near the Austin area and it led to the cancellation of the Southwestern game against Mary Hardin-Baylor that was supposed to take place at 7 pm central time and the cancellation in the 42nd minute of the Trinity game at Concordia (TX), which Trinity was leading 1-0.  My guess is that neither game will be made up since they are non-conference games.

So I can blame your weather forecast for the hail that wreaked havoc along I-35 while we were returning to Austin?   ;)

I wanted to revisit Kuiper's great observations on the struggles Region X teams have progressing in the playoffs.  In addition to everything stated, the NCAA's rules for determining pod hosting make it virtually impossible for a Region X team to host after the first couple of rounds since air travel is discouraged at all costs.  There are many times (in many sports, not just soccer) that the team with the best hosting credentials has been forced to fly back east because the other three teams are located within bus distance (<=500 miles).   Teams in other regions are occasionally impacted, but not as consistently as those in Region X.   There are certainly many other times that the Region X team did not earn hosting rights and should travel. 

I am not saying that the Bears, having rode roughshod over Massey No. 110 Wheaton, are now worthy of the national perspective thread, but if Washington University can build on that and play a full 90 minutes without shooting themselves in the foot, I think they can hang with anyone in the league. 

6-1-2 Emory comes to town on Sunday to begin one of the more favorable schedules for the Bears with only NYU, Carnegie Mellon and Case Western Reserve on the road.

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 24, 2023, 03:37:29 PM
On a more pessimistic note, this place may not just be dying, but already dead.  Very minimal activity, during two big days of soccer, now 3-4 weeks into the season.  Maybe a few of us keep frantically trying to defibrillate the patient well past any meaningful chance of a revival.  There has been the suggestion that traffic and interest would increase if some of the more active posters like myself took up less space and grabbed some pine.  I don't think that is it, but certainly anything is worth trying at this juncture.  The medium in part may be just too anachronistic, but I don't know of other options where posters can react and respond and a whole community of lurkers and posters can see the content and jump in or not. 

Well, I don't think we're dead in the water, but certainly it's much quieter now. I don't know whether the downturn is related to D3soccer.com going into limbo, but I wouldn't be surprised if that has some role. Partly, perhaps, this is a result of the hiatus of a highly knowledgeable NESCAC fan, Mr Right (formerly known as LaPaz), who took umbrage at something someone said that he interpreted--wrongly, IMO--as a slight directed at him personally. I doubt he'll be back. But, he was either the single most active poster here, or at least one of 2 or 3 contenders for that title. So, some percentage of the silence can be explained easily, but not all of it. He usually said a lot worth reading, though sometimes he did get a burr up his saddle or pretend he knew things that he didn't. (I particularly recall him saying something seemingly definitive about Messiah and recruiting, when he didn't know the first thing about how they get their players.)

I post much less often than formerly, partly b/c I sense that people were getting tired of the very limited range of my comments, as a homer. I used to make multiple comments after each Falcon game, but now I'd rather just speak up when asked for an opinion (as PN recently did) about the Falcons, or sometimes respond to a more general topic if I think I have something worth saying.

Have to let me know where to get that sort of filter, Falconer.  I tend to be a little less discriminate, once in the mood....

Quote from: Falconer on September 25, 2023, 03:51:27 PMI post much less often than formerly, partly b/c I sense that people were getting tired of the very limited range of my comments, as a homer. I used to make multiple comments after each Falcon game, but now I'd rather just speak up when asked for an opinion (as PN recently did) about the Falcons, or sometimes respond to a more general topic if I think I have something worth saying.

Just speaking for myself here, but your Messiah homerism doesn't bother me one bit. While not every post I add to the fray concerns North Park, I'm clearly a homer as well, so I'm hardly one to complain when other posters wave different sets of pom pons.

Don't let yourself be held back by perceived reactions. Post to your heart's content, I say.

Most of it is just self sorting. It's why the individual league or region threads get more activity.   I am a fan of all things D3 soccer, but if I had to be completely transparent I just don't care enough about most regions to be bothered to post about them in the national thread.   I'm willing to bet this applies to many users, especially the lurkers.

Might consider Reddit for something that would have more visibility. I participate in MLS and Columbus Crew boards - very active

Truth be told, I am the only unbiased person on here.  I accept Mount Union as simply the best, but really don't look down on all you lessers.

Go Raiders... kind of in a neutral sort of cheer.

SC.

First off, Falconer, like others, I'm only speaking for myself, but... Messiah is a fascinating program, so I pretty much never tire of quality posts about them.

Secondly, I'd be really interested in this sites traffic year over year traffic. I think the perception this place is dying seems a bit over the top (no offense PN). I'm sure d3soccer front page going away is having some kind of effect.

But I also feel like the last 2-3 years there've been some high quality/quantity posters come on board. Just an opinion without any research.

Quote from: Falconer on September 25, 2023, 03:51:27 PM

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 24, 2023, 03:37:29 PM
On a more pessimistic note, this place may not just be dying, but already dead.  Very minimal activity, during two big days of soccer, now 3-4 weeks into the season.  Maybe a few of us keep frantically trying to defibrillate the patient well past any meaningful chance of a revival.  There has been the suggestion that traffic and interest would increase if some of the more active posters like myself took up less space and grabbed some pine.  I don't think that is it, but certainly anything is worth trying at this juncture.  The medium in part may be just too anachronistic, but I don't know of other options where posters can react and respond and a whole community of lurkers and posters can see the content and jump in or not. 

Well, I don't think we're dead in the water, but certainly it's much quieter now. I don't know whether the downturn is related to D3soccer.com going into limbo, but I wouldn't be surprised if that has some role. Partly, perhaps, this is a result of the hiatus of a highly knowledgeable NESCAC fan, Mr Right (formerly known as LaPaz), who took umbrage at something someone said that he interpreted--wrongly, IMO--as a slight directed at him personally. I doubt he'll be back. But, he was either the single most active poster here, or at least one of 2 or 3 contenders for that title. So, some percentage of the silence can be explained easily, but not all of it. He usually said a lot worth reading, though sometimes he did get a burr up his saddle or pretend he knew things that he didn't. (I particularly recall him saying something seemingly definitive about Messiah and recruiting, when he didn't know the first thing about how they get their players.)

I post much less often than formerly, partly b/c I sense that people were getting tired of the very limited range of my comments, as a homer. I used to make multiple comments after each Falcon game, but now I'd rather just speak up when asked for an opinion (as PN recently did) about the Falcons, or sometimes respond to a more general topic if I think I have something worth saying.

Falconer, time for a confession from me.  The whole reason I'm ticked off is because you have never sent me any free Messiah gear.  I don't want an actual uniform (although I would accept a Messiah jersey with my name on it), but rather more like the training gear players wear to practice, to classes, etc.

For real, I'd love for you to post about your beloved Falcons to your heart's content....and when you say something outrageously insane, then we could go back and forth a round or two which would be an excellent way for me to show off my hard-won maturity.  But I'd also love for you venture out beyond Messiah because you have a great feel for soccer and a keen eye that would have even sharper vision on non-Messiah matters. 

I'm certainly not happy about the season thus far, but I will say that my team sucking has been freeing.  After all these years, there are still so many schools I know almost nothing about and I do enjoy learning stuff about them that will no doubt serve me well at the D3 soccer boards national trivia tournament being held next February 16-19, 2024 in the Bronze Room at the Holiday Inn Express in Waverly, Iowa (and of course hosted by Wartburg College).  With any luck, you and I could meet in the Final and hopefully go to about 5 OTs.

Quote from: Hopkins92 on September 25, 2023, 06:22:44 PM
First off, Falconer, like others, I'm only speaking for myself, but... Messiah is a fascinating program, so I pretty much never tire of quality posts about them.

Secondly, I'd be really interested in this sites traffic year over year traffic. I think the perception this place is dying seems a bit over the top (no offense PN). I'm sure d3soccer front page going away is having some kind of effect.

But I also feel like the last 2-3 years there've been some high quality/quantity posters come on board. Just an opinion without any research.

Lol....so you're saying I'm a bit hysterical?  How could that be?!

I give you a ton of credit, because you have worked hard to keep new folks engaged, played moderator at times when fools like myself get a little off the rails and/or too heated, and your play on the field has been steady and consistent.

That said, remove 8-10 of us, and is there really much going on?  Compared to your level of excitement about the site towards the end of last season do you really feel like the site is thriving?

In addition to not having Mr.Right to shake things up good and bad, we also don't have a Ryan Harmanis or our Tufts doctor probably in his first year of residency to provide the highly intelligent, new alum perspective.  Not to mention the circa 2013-2019 version of blooter442 who also was quite prolific and knowledgeable. 

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 25, 2023, 06:31:14 PM
I'm certainly not happy about the season thus far, but I will say that my team sucking has been freeing.  After all these years, there are still so many schools I know almost nothing about and I do enjoy learning stuff about them that will no doubt serve me well at the D3 soccer boards national trivia tournament being held next February 16-19, 2024 in the Bronze Room at the Holiday Inn Express in Waverly, Iowa (and of course hosted by Wartburg College).  With any luck, you and I could meet in the Final and hopefully go to about 5 OTs.

The D3 board trivia tournament is in the Silver Room due to a scheduling conflict.  The Bronze Room was already booked by the SUNYAC thread members for Chinese New Year to celebrate the Year of the Dragon starring the Cortland mascot.

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 25, 2023, 06:54:02 PM

Quote from: Hopkins92 on September 25, 2023, 06:22:44 PM
First off, Falconer, like others, I'm only speaking for myself, but... Messiah is a fascinating program, so I pretty much never tire of quality posts about them.

Secondly, I'd be really interested in this sites traffic year over year traffic. I think the perception this place is dying seems a bit over the top (no offense PN). I'm sure d3soccer front page going away is having some kind of effect.

But I also feel like the last 2-3 years there've been some high quality/quantity posters come on board. Just an opinion without any research.

Lol....so you're saying I'm a bit hysterical?  How could that be?!

I give you a ton of credit, because you have worked hard to keep new folks engaged, played moderator at times when fools like myself get a little off the rails and/or too heated, and your play on the field has been steady and consistent.

That said, remove 8-10 of us, and is there really much going on?  Compared to your level of excitement about the site towards the end of last season do you really feel like the site is thriving?

In addition to not having Mr.Right to shake things up good and bad, we also don't have a Ryan Harmanis or our Tufts doctor probably in his first year of residency to provide the highly intelligent, new alum perspective.  Not to mention the circa 2013-2019 version of blooter442 who also was quite prolific and knowledgeable.

FWIW, the nationally-oriented boards here have roughly the same amount of activity, and only slightly less participation in terms of individual posters, than do the football and men's basketball nationally-oriented boards, and those are by far the two most heavily-trafficked sports on d3boards.com. And nationally-oriented soccer boards like this one do just as well, if not better than, the nationally-oriented boards for baseball -- and that sport, unlike soccer, has a sister site (d3baseball.com) that's part of Pat's d3sports.com family that provides the baseball boards with comprehensive content.

The big complaint among the basketball people is that Twitter ... uh, I mean X ... has stolen much of their thunder, even though it's a platform that degrades conversation and thus really doesn't suffice as a replacement. I don't know if the same thing is true for D3 men's soccer, because I really haven't discovered any conversation at all regarding D3 men's soccer on X. Maybe there is, and I just don't know the secret password or the club handshake.

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 25, 2023, 06:54:02 PM

Quote from: Hopkins92 on September 25, 2023, 06:22:44 PM
First off, Falconer, like others, I'm only speaking for myself, but... Messiah is a fascinating program, so I pretty much never tire of quality posts about them.

Secondly, I'd be really interested in this sites traffic year over year traffic. I think the perception this place is dying seems a bit over the top (no offense PN). I'm sure d3soccer front page going away is having some kind of effect.

But I also feel like the last 2-3 years there've been some high quality/quantity posters come on board. Just an opinion without any research.

Lol....so you're saying I'm a bit hysterical?  How could that be?!

I give you a ton of credit, because you have worked hard to keep new folks engaged, played moderator at times when fools like myself get a little off the rails and/or too heated, and your play on the field has been steady and consistent.

That said, remove 8-10 of us, and is there really much going on?  Compared to your level of excitement about the site towards the end of last season do you really feel like the site is thriving?

In addition to not having Mr.Right to shake things up good and bad, we also don't have a Ryan Harmanis or our Tufts doctor probably in his first year of residency to provide the highly intelligent, new alum perspective.  Not to mention the circa 2013-2019 version of blooter442 who also was quite prolific and knowledgeable.

The interesting thing is that we're actually getting more of what @Paul Newman asked for in pre-season - conference or region-wide capsule summaries.  In addition to the West Region top-to-bottom type of game reviews and attention that I started doing last year, I'm seeing other people take up the job in the Mid-Atlantic, the Great Lakes, the Sunyac, the Liberty, and probably elsewhere I'm forgetting with posts that summarize and describe the results of the weekend's game and give a sense of the relative ranking of the area.  What we're seeing less of perhaps is the fiercely partisan bantering that @Paul Newman may be missing in places other than perhaps the NESCAC, where there's still less than there used to be.  I, for one, have zero actual ties to any of the teams in the West region.  I'm just a fan of the sport (although I may have a soft sport in my heart for the lovable losers like Cal Tech now that they are actually winning, and for a team like Lewis & Clark, just to root for them to get better because I think they can eventually improve the Northwest Conference by adding another team to the mix with a somewhat more national profile).  So, my posts tend to be more neutral and don't really invite a lot of bantering even if there were lurkers upset with my characterization of games or teams.  For some, this may make the forums better, but for others, it may seem more like a resource and less like a bar full of people watching and arguing over the game in real time.  @Paul Newman can correct me if I'm mistaken, but I think that's what he sees as missing from the Board.

Good take kuiper. We can let PN speak for himself, but from my perspective, I've enjoyed expanding my knowledge beyond the Centennial and that is greatly aided by those who chime in on the regional/conference specific threads.

While mildly entertaining, I don't find a lot of value in posts with fans/alums chirping at each other, but it does add some flavor I suppose.

Over 300 views of this thread today.

If you are a regular contributor, but feeling discouraged, people are reading.

I'm often guilty of being a lurker, partly due to the fact that the school I went to and their conference are not often brought up a ton (though the CCC has already seen quite a number of surprising results...) and also that I am not in the area anymore and don't have much of a pulse on the current dynamics of the teams nearby. But maybe I'll look to hop in a little more prevalently.

I know i make this point at least once a year... The total game changer for those that want to jump in is the fact that, despite the Paymark Conference and Paywall U, 90 percent of the games are streamed and many are available On Demand for a few days (or more) after.

That's how I started to really get into it. Going over and popping on the Messiah, CNU, W&L, not to mention other CC games to "scout" the competition. Five years ago, this just wasn't a thing.

New rankings out today from United Soccer Coaches.  Not surprised to see Messiah at #1, but Mary Washington only falling to #2 with the loss seems generous.  These rankings seem relatively subjective at times, so nothing to lose sleep over - but interesting.

Quote from: GenerallyInterested on September 26, 2023, 03:21:36 PM
New rankings out today from United Soccer Coaches.  Not surprised to see Messiah at #1, but Mary Washington only falling to #2 with the loss seems generous.  These rankings seem relatively subjective at times, so nothing to lose sleep over - but interesting.

Not at all.  They are that good.  Would also say the weather was no ones friend on Saturday.  Although Messiah was the better under the circumstances.

SC.

I see some folks are still getting snookered by the USC poll.  The problem is not too much subjectivity.  It is an entirely mechanical process whereby they take whoever was highest from the week before if they haven't lost region by region...picking one from Reg 1, then one from Reg 2, then Reg 3....and so on...and then rinse and repeat until they get to 25.  There is zero consideration of SoS.  Simply put, there is no consideration.  I don't know else to say it except that it is not a meaningful poll, except of course schools use it when advantageous (as they should and if the school has very little history of being "ranked."

On the other stuff, I'm not craving conflict.  Increased conflict is not what I think is missing. I'm mostly only triggered by a couple of things....wildly arrogant, entitled, and often presumptuous attitudes and grossly gullible and shallow sycophancy.  That said, I am gonna try to recede a bit and see what happens.  I agree with Hopkins that we do have some excellent, newish posters -- SC and Kuiper immediately come to mind but there are others -- but imo it's still very limited.  There are at least two to three handfuls of traditional powerhouses that seem to have zero posters and mostly always have had zero...like Oneonta, Cortland, Rochester, Emory, Stevens, Redlands, CMU, etc.....Heck, is there a single Mary Washington poster?

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 26, 2023, 06:17:40 PM
On the other stuff, I'm not craving conflict.  Increased conflict is not what I think is missing. I'm mostly only triggered by a couple of things....wildly arrogant, entitled, and often presumptuous attitudes and grossly gullible and shallow sycophancy.  That said, I am gonna try to recede a bit and see what happens.  I agree with Hopkins that we do have some excellent, newish posters -- SC and Kuiper immediately come to mind but there are others -- but imo it's still very limited.  There are at least two to three handfuls of traditional powerhouses that seem to have zero posters and mostly always have had zero...like Oneonta, Cortland, Rochester, Emory, Stevens, Redlands, CMU, etc.....Heck, is there a single Mary Washington poster?

I wish you wouldn't recede--your comments and perspective are always welcome.

There was some good commentary on the NESCAC thread today about fouls and yellows in the Conn/Babson game and it reminded me of how things were a few years ago.

On a bright note.  I did watch the Carleton - St. Olaf game and here are my notes.

  Carleton - St.Olaf Game Notes. (https://www.patreon.com/posts/st-olaf-carleton-89887541)

Quote from: SimpleCoach on September 26, 2023, 07:35:10 PM
On a bright note.  I did watch the Carleton - St. Olaf game and here are my notes.

  Carleton - St.Olaf Game Notes. (https://www.patreon.com/posts/st-olaf-carleton-89887541)

On an even lighter note, was I the only one to look at this score on the NCAA site and laugh at the names, not the numbers?  Which one do you think Tolstoy coaches?  ;D

Warren 1
Peace 7

Nice catch, Kuiper!  You cover a lot material in a very short period of time...it's like you have a personal source in every corner of D3.

And SC, great job.  I watched the last 30 or so minutes.  Congrats to St Olaf for clawing themselves back into the relevance picture.  Actually not deflated (if I am    a Carleton fan) that much by Carleton taking a loss.  They aren't used to that level frequently and I they held their own.  Can't see them getting to the Final Four but they could ruin someone else's chances in the 2nd round or Sweet 16.  Could see St Olaf ending up being a sleeper pick to make Final Four if they keep winning.

Quote from: SimpleCoach on September 26, 2023, 03:32:49 PM

Quote from: GenerallyInterested on September 26, 2023, 03:21:36 PM
New rankings out today from United Soccer Coaches.  Not surprised to see Messiah at #1, but Mary Washington only falling to #2 with the loss seems generous.  These rankings seem relatively subjective at times, so nothing to lose sleep over - but interesting.

Not at all.  They are that good.  Would also say the weather was no ones friend on Saturday.  Although Messiah was the better under the circumstances.

SC.

They are good.  But in better weather, Messiah removes any doubt.

Decent result for Geneseo tonight against Rochester.  I give UR a lot of grief so it may just be my confirmation bias but Geneseo looked a lot better and were in control for most of the game.   UR's spot in the rankings from here on out is poll inertia. 

And the slipper fits...

Congrats to Hopkins on his prescience with this Widener team.  Wow.  Felt like no way Stevens could lose, then felt like worst case would be settling with a draw, and then they do lose on a goal off a corner leaving 12 seconds on the clock.  Kenyon-Trine vibes.

Quote from: stlawus on September 26, 2023, 08:48:02 PM
Decent result for Geneseo tonight against Rochester.  I give UR a lot of grief so it may just be my confirmation bias but Geneseo looked a lot better and were in control for most of the game.   UR's spot in the rankings from here on out is poll inertia.

I'll side with you on this one. UR had a bit more of the play in the first half, but Geneseo came out in the second half hungry to earn a result. I would say that Rochester is a good team with some results to back it up, but there have been a handful of games where they have let their opponent dictate the tempo after the break (Geneseo & RIT). They have shown that they can be fairly dangerous in the final third (20 goals scored, 4/6 PKs), but will need to maintain their level for 90 minutes if they want to make a run like they did in 2018.

It will be interesting to see how they come out against Chicago. Have to think it will be difficult for them to come out with 3 points. Could see Cortland move past them in the regional rankings which would bump Rochester down in the national rankings. The rankings are nice to give talking points, but we can agree that they are relatively meaningless. Just as cash is king in business, in D3 soccer - results & consistency are king.

@paulnewman, I hope you don't recede! I very much enjoy your posts.

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 26, 2023, 09:25:06 PM
And the slipper fits...

Congrats to Hopkins on his prescience with this Widener team.  Wow.  Felt like no way Stevens could lose, then felt like worst case would be settling with a draw, and then they do lose on a goal off a corner leaving 12 seconds on the clock.  Kenyon-Trine vibes.

I have been agreeing with Hopkins as well.  I have had Widener in my top 25 for 2 weeks now...great game with Messiah on October 7

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 26, 2023, 09:25:06 PM
And the slipper fits...

Congrats to Hopkins on his prescience with this Widener team.  Wow.  Felt like no way Stevens could lose, then felt like worst case would be settling with a draw, and then they do lose on a goal off a corner leaving 12 seconds on the clock.  Kenyon-Trine vibes.

So full disclosure, Widener was routinely on Hopkins' schedule back in the day, and they were pretty routinely seen as a fairly easy win. And while they've popped in with the occasional head slightly above .500 record, they have been just as likely to post a 3 win season over the last decade. So, there was a slightly tongue in cheek nature to the whole thing last year.

But, when Sean Fatiga started pouring in goals, I started chiming in on the Mid-Atlantic thread around this time. And then a quick scan of the roster and the bulk of the team was coming back this year. So... Not rocket science but definitely a slightly random team to jump on.

Kind of like you with Kenyon, nice to have other teams to birddog when your team is having a sketchy start to the season.

And for those not hopping on regional threads, Widener is 8-0 to Messiah's 7-0-1. I haven't checked Massey but I'm sure they are still pretty far apart given SOS. But for now, they are technically in first place in the MAC-C. (I guess?)

Is the Massey SoS rankings accurate? For all the scheduling hate they get, Union is 21.

SoS is ultimately a function of the overall rating system itself.

I remain agnostic for now with regard to Massey vis-a-vis D3 men's soccer, but I was greatly disillusioned by Massey last year with regard to D3 men's basketball once I discovered that Massey's power-rating algorithm took multiple past seasons into consideration and thus applied an ongoing poison pill to the rating of any team that was quickly rising to national prominence after having experienced several dreadful seasons (e.g., North Park). Given that D3's men's soccer is a bit more static than D3 men's basketball in terms of teams rising and falling (which should come as no surprise for a sport that has eleven players rather than five, meaning that you can't really flip a program's fortunes overnight with the gain or loss of only a couple of outstanding players in soccer the way that you can in basketball), I'm hopeful that Ken Massey's algorithm is better suited for this sport than it is for hoops.

Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 27, 2023, 11:59:48 AM
SoS is ultimately a function of the overall rating system itself.

I remain agnostic for now with regard to Massey vis-a-vis D3 men's soccer, but I was greatly disillusioned by Massey last year with regard to D3 men's basketball once I discovered that Massey's power-rating algorithm took multiple past seasons into consideration and thus applied an ongoing poison pill to the rating of any team that was quickly rising to national prominence after having experienced several dreadful seasons (e.g., North Park). Given that D3's men's soccer is a bit more static than D3 men's basketball in terms of teams rising and falling (which should come as no surprise for a sport that has eleven players rather than five, meaning that you can't really flip a program's fortunes overnight with the gain or loss of only a couple of outstanding players in soccer the way that you can in basketball), I'm hopeful that Ken Massey's algorithm is better suited for this sport than it is for hoops.

I read Massey's documentation at one point several years ago, and I believe at that time it took last year's results into account but nothing further back. Over the course of the season, last year's results have less and less effect, so that by the end of the season only this year's results affect the ranking.

The purpose, presumably, is to give the ranking a little more stability at the beginning of the season, figuring that last year's team will be somewhat close to this year's team. I think human polls do that too.

Quote from: Dark Knight on September 27, 2023, 01:45:22 PM
I read Massey's documentation at one point several years ago, and I believe at that time it took last year's results into account but nothing further back. Over the course of the season, last year's results have less and less effect, so that by the end of the season only this year's results affect the ranking.

The purpose, presumably, is to give the ranking a little more stability at the beginning of the season, figuring that last year's team will be somewhat close to this year's team. I think human polls do that too.

I remember thinking last season that this must be the case because of the way Massey tracks one of the other men's basketball ratings.

North Park finished the season rated No. 21 which was probably not that far off considering that this included 6 losses and a 7th against a Division I team.

In looking at the Massey FAQ, the ratings use an extrapolation recent years' results, tuned to fit historical trends and regression to the mean, but that this data is purposefully diminished over the course of a season before it is phased out entirely.


How do you generate preseason ratings?
The BCS compliant ratings do not use preseason information, so everyone starts at zero. A team's rating may look funny or fluctuate wildly until there is enough evidence to get a more precise measurement of the team's strength. As games are played, the computer gradually 'learns' and the cream rises to the top.

For the main version, preseason ratings compensate for the lack of data early in a given season. They give the computer a realistic starting point from which to evaluate teams that have played zero or few games. This limits dramatic changes that could be caused by isolated results not buffered by the context of other games.

The effect of the preseason ratings gradually diminishes each week. When every team has played a sufficient number of games to be accurately evaluated based on this year alone, the preseason bias will be phased out.

Preseason ratings are based on an extrapolation recent years' results, tuned to fit historical trends and regression to the mean. A team's future performance is expected to be consistent with the strength of the program, but sometimes there may be temporary spikes.

Other potentially significant indicators (ex. returning starters, coaching changes, and recruiting) are ignored. Therefore, preseason ratings should not be taken too seriously,

Quote from: WUPHF on September 27, 2023, 02:45:15 PM
In looking at the Massey FAQ, the ratings use an extrapolation recent years' results, tuned to fit historical trends and regression to the mean, but that this data is purposefully diminished over the course of a season before it is phased out entirely.


How do you generate preseason ratings?
The BCS compliant ratings do not use preseason information, so everyone starts at zero. A team's rating may look funny or fluctuate wildly until there is enough evidence to get a more precise measurement of the team's strength. As games are played, the computer gradually 'learns' and the cream rises to the top.

For the main version, preseason ratings compensate for the lack of data early in a given season. They give the computer a realistic starting point from which to evaluate teams that have played zero or few games. This limits dramatic changes that could be caused by isolated results not buffered by the context of other games.

The effect of the preseason ratings gradually diminishes each week. When every team has played a sufficient number of games to be accurately evaluated based on this year alone, the preseason bias will be phased out.

Preseason ratings are based on an extrapolation recent years' results, tuned to fit historical trends and regression to the mean. A team's future performance is expected to be consistent with the strength of the program, but sometimes there may be temporary spikes.

Other potentially significant indicators (ex. returning starters, coaching changes, and recruiting) are ignored. Therefore, preseason ratings should not be taken too seriously,

Thanks for the information....

Quote from: Hopkins92 on September 27, 2023, 09:38:12 AM

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 26, 2023, 09:25:06 PM
And the slipper fits...

Congrats to Hopkins on his prescience with this Widener team.  Wow.  Felt like no way Stevens could lose, then felt like worst case would be settling with a draw, and then they do lose on a goal off a corner leaving 12 seconds on the clock.  Kenyon-Trine vibes.

So full disclosure, Widener was routinely on Hopkins' schedule back in the day, and they were pretty routinely seen as a fairly easy win. And while they've popped in with the occasional head slightly above .500 record, they have been just as likely to post a 3 win season over the last decade. So, there was a slightly tongue in cheek nature to the whole thing last year.

But, when Sean Fatiga started pouring in goals, I started chiming in on the Mid-Atlantic thread around this time. And then a quick scan of the roster and the bulk of the team was coming back this year. So... Not rocket science but definitely a slightly random team to jump on.

Kind of like you with Kenyon, nice to have other teams to birddog when your team is having a sketchy start to the season.

And for those not hopping on regional threads, Widener is 8-0 to Messiah's 7-0-1. I haven't checked Massey but I'm sure they are still pretty far apart given SOS. But for now, they are technically in first place in the MAC-C. (I guess?)

Had a minute.

Messiah #1 in Massey
Widener #15

In case anyone wants to know... from my FAQ's

How does SimpleCoach come up with his ratings ?

He doesn't.  Jackie does.

SC.

Quote from: SimpleCoach on September 27, 2023, 03:16:17 PM
In case anyone wants to know... from my FAQ's

How does SimpleCoach come up with his ratings ?

He doesn't.  Jackie does.

SC.

Well let's hear it for Jackie...  :)

Quote from: WUPHF on September 27, 2023, 02:45:15 PM
In looking at the Massey FAQ, the ratings use an extrapolation recent years' results, tuned to fit historical trends and regression to the mean, but that this data is purposefully diminished over the course of a season before it is phased out entirely.


How do you generate preseason ratings?
The BCS compliant ratings do not use preseason information, so everyone starts at zero. A team's rating may look funny or fluctuate wildly until there is enough evidence to get a more precise measurement of the team's strength. As games are played, the computer gradually 'learns' and the cream rises to the top.

For the main version, preseason ratings compensate for the lack of data early in a given season. They give the computer a realistic starting point from which to evaluate teams that have played zero or few games. This limits dramatic changes that could be caused by isolated results not buffered by the context of other games.

The effect of the preseason ratings gradually diminishes each week. When every team has played a sufficient number of games to be accurately evaluated based on this year alone, the preseason bias will be phased out.

Preseason ratings are based on an extrapolation recent years' results, tuned to fit historical trends and regression to the mean. A team's future performance is expected to be consistent with the strength of the program, but sometimes there may be temporary spikes.

Other potentially significant indicators (ex. returning starters, coaching changes, and recruiting) are ignored. Therefore, preseason ratings should not be taken too seriously,

I'd actually noticed a change in the last couple of years -- with a new season's preseason rankings not exactly matching the final rankings of the previous season. So this description makes good sense.