D3boards.com

Let the fun begin

Looking a couple of round ahead, we could have the game that no one would want to referee--Amherst vs St. Thomas (TX).  Apologies to @EnmoreCat, but most of the country might be Ammirers in that match given the behavior we have witnessed from St. Thomas this year.

Quote from: College Soccer Observer on November 06, 2023, 02:46:40 PM
Looking a couple of round ahead, we could have the game that no one would want to referee--Amherst vs St. Thomas (TX).  Apologies to @EnmoreCat, but most of the country might be Ammirers in that match given the behavior we have witnessed from St. Thomas this year.

Whaaa, not looking forward to possible Rd 3 Trinity v. St. Thomas.  Maybe a slight uniform change - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBA-cihIdFQ Along with tape over mouths??

Are they ever going to publish the bracket?

Bracket is up now on NCAA.com.  Is anyone aware of a bracket challenge like March Madness?

Quote from: College Soccer Observer on November 06, 2023, 02:46:40 PM
Looking a couple of round ahead, we could have the game that no one would want to referee--Amherst vs St. Thomas (TX).  Apologies to @EnmoreCat, but most of the country might be Ammirers in that match given the behavior we have witnessed from St. Thomas this year.

Not used to apologies here CSO, but of course, will take them however they come.  In any event, I am very much a one game at a time guy and will spend my day learning as much about SUNY Poly as I can.  Although, we do have a big horse race here today, the Melbourne Cup, plus a Reserve Bank of Australia announcement, my focus will be on the Wildcats.

Quote from: Freddyfud on November 06, 2023, 03:06:58 PM
Bracket is up now on NCAA.com.  Is anyone aware of a bracket challenge like March Madness?

I think the D3photography.com guys are going to publish one later this afternoon (according to https://twitter.com/d3photography/status/1721574053629059271)

Quote from: Freddyfud on November 06, 2023, 03:06:58 PM
Bracket is up now on NCAA.com.  Is anyone aware of a bracket challenge like March Madness?

I'm almost positive someone did that last year.

And North Central (MN) looks to continue their season as they appear on the bracket to be lining up against UW-Eau Claire. Kidding of course, but comical how this team continues to appear randomly(?) throughout NCAA's rankings, materials, etc.

Additionally, I'd be curious to hear any thoughts from the group on if there were any teams you felt were robbed of a bid and vice versa. Looking forward to the tourney!

Quote from: Midwest Fan on November 06, 2023, 04:08:41 PM
And North Central (MN) looks to continue their season as they appear on the bracket to be lining up against UW-Eau Claire. Kidding of course, but comical how this team continues to appear randomly(?) throughout NCAA's rankings, materials, etc.

Additionally, I'd be curious to hear any thoughts from the group on if there were any teams you felt were robbed of a bid and vice versa. Looking forward to the tourney!

Hi Midwest Fan, I think you have the wrong North Central. It is actually North Central (IL) from CCIW that is playing UW-Eau Claire.

Quote from: Midwest Fan on November 06, 2023, 04:08:41 PM
And North Central (MN) looks to continue their season as they appear on the bracket to be lining up against UW-Eau Claire. Kidding of course, but comical how this team continues to appear randomly(?) throughout NCAA's rankings, materials, etc.

Additionally, I'd be curious to hear any thoughts from the group on if there were any teams you felt were robbed of a bid and vice versa. Looking forward to the tourney!

I haven't seen the latest RR...so just assuming GAC and Denison cracked the final ranking and that, along with some favorites not getting AQs, left several worthy teams on the sidelines...imo, in no particular order...Mt Union, Brockport, Bowdoin, Kean, Texas Lutheran, Muhlenberg...

Btw, I had GAC in and Denison of course won AQ but assuming they got ranked and that had implications for several other teams.

IMHO the Mules got shafted. 

Quote from: deutschfan on November 06, 2023, 04:35:07 PM
IMHO the Mules got shafted.

Midwest fan appreciate your take and I am curious who else
Feels like teams got slighted and what teams people feel just snuck in. 

Quote from: stlawus on November 06, 2023, 02:59:11 PM
Are they ever going to publish the bracket?

They actually published the bracket a few minutes before the selection show aired.  Strange timing.

Quote from: deutschfan on November 06, 2023, 04:35:07 PM
IMHO the Mules got shafted.

Possibly.  They most likely did not do enough to get in. Did not beat Scranton, Wash. College, F&M (during reg. season) tied JHU.  Plus their non conference games were not against other teams with good strength of schedule. They definitely played well.

I'd also put Macalester in there as a team that was on the wrong side of the bubble.  RvR let them down.  John Carroll and Otterbein were the lowest ranked teams by RPI to receive a Pool C.  Overall though, I don't think there were any hugely controversial decisions like last year. 

Quote from: bshu23 on November 06, 2023, 04:19:55 PM

Quote from: Midwest Fan on November 06, 2023, 04:08:41 PM
And North Central (MN) looks to continue their season as they appear on the bracket to be lining up against UW-Eau Claire. Kidding of course, but comical how this team continues to appear randomly(?) throughout NCAA's rankings, materials, etc.

Additionally, I'd be curious to hear any thoughts from the group on if there were any teams you felt were robbed of a bid and vice versa. Looking forward to the tourney!

Hi Midwest Fan, I think you have the wrong North Central. It is actually North Central (IL) from CCIW that is playing UW-Eau Claire.

Midwest Fan is well aware of that.  That's why he said "Kidding of course".  You see, earlier in the season the USC Regional Rankings had North Central (MN) in their rankings which obviously was a mistake due to confusing the two schools.  And then today, apparently the NCAA originally had North Central (MN) in their bracket instead of North Central (IL) before getting it corrected.  So that's what Midwest Fan is referring to and making light of.

I'm just glad to see that they got Johns Hopkins spelled correctly in the bracket after constantly having it spelled without the "s" on "John" in all their Regional Rankings.

Final Regional Rankings and worksheets are up at https://www.ncaa.com/rankings/soccer-men/d3/regional-rankings.

Quote from: College Soccer Observer on November 06, 2023, 02:46:40 PM
Looking a couple of round ahead, we could have the game that no one would want to referee--Amherst vs St. Thomas (TX).  Apologies to @EnmoreCat, but most of the country might be Ammirers in that match given the behavior we have witnessed from St. Thomas this year.

This is Occidental's first year in the tournament.  They play St. Thomas.  What behavior do they need to know about?

Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 06, 2023, 05:03:30 PM

Quote from: bshu23 on November 06, 2023, 04:19:55 PM

Quote from: Midwest Fan on November 06, 2023, 04:08:41 PM
And North Central (MN) looks to continue their season as they appear on the bracket to be lining up against UW-Eau Claire. Kidding of course, but comical how this team continues to appear randomly(?) throughout NCAA's rankings, materials, etc.

Additionally, I'd be curious to hear any thoughts from the group on if there were any teams you felt were robbed of a bid and vice versa. Looking forward to the tourney!

Hi Midwest Fan, I think you have the wrong North Central. It is actually North Central (IL) from CCIW that is playing UW-Eau Claire.

Midwest Fan is well aware of that.  That's why he said "Kidding of course".  You see, earlier in the season the USC Regional Rankings had North Central (MN) in their rankings which obviously was a mistake due to confusing the two schools.  And then today, apparently the NCAA originally had North Central (MN) in their bracket instead of North Central (IL) before getting it corrected.  So that's what Midwest Fan is referring to and making light of.

I'm just glad to see that they got Johns Hopkins spelled correctly in the bracket after constantly having it spelled without the "s" on "John" in all their Regional Rankings.

Well, thanks for this attention to detail FW. :D Announcers so routinely get this wrong that I've learned to not even really have it register.

Bracket challenge is up at https://d3challenge.com/ .

Quote from: Gray Fox on November 06, 2023, 05:32:37 PM

Quote from: College Soccer Observer on November 06, 2023, 02:46:40 PM
Looking a couple of round ahead, we could have the game that no one would want to referee--Amherst vs St. Thomas (TX).  Apologies to @EnmoreCat, but most of the country might be Ammirers in that match given the behavior we have witnessed from St. Thomas this year.

This is Occidental's first year in the tournament.  They play St. Thomas.  What behavior do they need to know about?

See specifically this post (https://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=9196.msg2096039#msg2096039) in the "Go WEST young man (and NORTH)" thread, and there are plenty of other examples earlier in the season including a tackle that broke a TLU player's leg.  Discipline is not one of their strong suits.

They are fast and have excellent ball control and passing.  It's a shame that they let their emotions get out of control too often.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 06, 2023, 04:25:57 PM

Quote from: Midwest Fan on November 06, 2023, 04:08:41 PM
And North Central (MN) looks to continue their season as they appear on the bracket to be lining up against UW-Eau Claire. Kidding of course, but comical how this team continues to appear randomly(?) throughout NCAA's rankings, materials, etc.

Additionally, I'd be curious to hear any thoughts from the group on if there were any teams you felt were robbed of a bid and vice versa. Looking forward to the tourney!

I haven't seen the latest RR...so just assuming GAC and Denison cracked the final ranking and that, along with some favorites not getting AQs, left several worthy teams on the sidelines...imo, in no particular order...Mt Union, Brockport, Bowdoin, Kean, Texas Lutheran, Muhlenberg...

Btw, I had GAC in and Denison of course won AQ but assuming they got ranked and that had implications for several other teams.

Also MSOE and Carthage had competitive resumes...I preferred Kean to Rowan and Stockton but I guess they had arguments as well (with stronger SoS)...

And given Mt Union's fate I'd Carleton was very fortunate that GAC landed below them...and a case imo could be made for reversing them.

All seven from Region VII getting in has got to be a record.  Probably one too many but the difference between the top and bottom spots was almost negligible.  Seven very solid to very good teams...but none are great...and would not be shocking if all are out by end of 1st weekend...or at least most of them.

Quote from: Gray Fox on November 06, 2023, 05:32:37 PM

Quote from: College Soccer Observer on November 06, 2023, 02:46:40 PM
Looking a couple of round ahead, we could have the game that no one would want to referee--Amherst vs St. Thomas (TX).  Apologies to @EnmoreCat, but most of the country might be Ammirers in that match given the behavior we have witnessed from St. Thomas this year.

This is Occidental's first year in the tournament.  They play St. Thomas.  What behavior do they need to know about?

It will be like facing a really strong team from Riverside or the Inland Empire.  They are superbly technical, can break a press with a couple of passes and turns on the ground, and can score from distance, but also know all the dirty tricks from their fathers' Sunday league games. 

Frankly, kids like Vicente Navarro and Sebastian Romero may be crucial for Oxy because I know they played for and against those types of teams growing up.

Some other initial impressions...

Mary Wash better be in Elite 8 mode assuming they get JCU...sneaky tough 2nd rounder for one of the top seeds.

I like Conn's draw..tough for sure with Denison and F&M and then likely Montclair or CNU...but doable for them if they are on.  Not a good draw for Denison who surely hoped for better and will not have any physicality advantage versus a grizzled NESCAC.

I agree St Olaf got a nice draw and especially because if form holds will only have to play Calvin or Chicago and not both.  Not to say that Carleton, UW-P, North Central or even UWEC couldn't knock the Oles off but they should be favored. 

WPI hosting?  Wow.  Amherst has a good draw per usual...and they have history playing Trinity and Amherst isn't a team that UST is going to intimidate in the least.

Midd I think has a tough draw.  Doable, but tough.  CWRU or Hobart might upset Cortland but Midd would be favored against Cortland too.  Can the Panthers concentrate on a very tough 2nd round tilt (Hopkins or Babson) and not think about who they possibly could meet in the Elite 8?

Tufts will like their draw and if each wins a couple the drumbeat for finally getting Messiah vs Tufts will grow louder.  Would that match happen in Grantham or is there a conflict with the women? 

Best 1st round matchups?  Wash Coll vs Otterbein, Wartburg vs GAC, CWRU vs Hobart, Hopkins vs Babson, Ohio Northern vs Lynchburg, W&L vs West Conn.....honorable mentions to Conn vs Denison, Carleton vs Pac Lutheran, North Central vs UWEC, Colorado Coll vs Oglethrope, Oneonta vs Catholic.

Quote from: Kuiper on November 06, 2023, 06:07:51 PM

Quote from: Gray Fox on November 06, 2023, 05:32:37 PM

Quote from: College Soccer Observer on November 06, 2023, 02:46:40 PM
Looking a couple of round ahead, we could have the game that no one would want to referee--Amherst vs St. Thomas (TX).  Apologies to @EnmoreCat, but most of the country might be Ammirers in that match given the behavior we have witnessed from St. Thomas this year.

This is Occidental's first year in the tournament.  They play St. Thomas.  What behavior do they need to know about?

It will be like facing a really strong team from Riverside or the Inland Empire.  They are superbly technical, can break a press with a couple of passes and turns on the ground, and can score from distance, but also know all the dirty tricks from their fathers' Sunday league games. 

Frankly, kids like Vicente Navarro and Sebastian Romero may be crucial for Oxy because I know they played for and against those types of teams growing up.

Perfect!

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 06, 2023, 06:24:22 PM
Tufts will like their draw and if each wins a couple the drumbeat for finally getting Messiah vs Tufts will grow louder.  Would that match happen in Grantham or is there a conflict with the women? 

Being an odd-numbered year, the women have hosting priority for the 1st/2nd Round weekend, which is why Messiah men are on the road to Lynchburg this coming weekend.  However, that mean's that the men have hosting priority for the Sectional weekend and Messiah would surely host their Sectional if they advance. 

So I'm kind of happy about the way that worked out, as I probably wouldn't have been able to get to games this weekend anyways because of my kids' games.  However, the following weekend should be wide open (I say hesitantly, knowing I am probably forgetting something or just don't know about something quite yet!).  Besides, which game would I rather see in person?  Messiah vs. Baruch or a Top 25 game?

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 06, 2023, 06:24:22 PM
Some other initial impressions...

Mary Wash better be in Elite 8 mode assuming they get JCU...sneaky tough 2nd rounder for one of the top seeds.

I like Conn's draw..tough for sure with Denison and F&M and then likely Montclair or CNU...but doable for them if they are on.  Not a good draw for Denison who surely hoped for better and will not have any physicality advantage versus a grizzled NESCAC.

I agree St Olaf got a nice draw and especially because if form holds will only have to play Calvin or Chicago and not both.  Not to say that Carleton, UW-P, North Central or even UWEC couldn't knock the Oles off but they should be favored. 

WPI hosting?  Wow.  Amherst has a good draw per usual...and they have history playing Trinity and Amherst isn't a team that UST is going to intimidate in the least.

Midd I think has a tough draw.  Doable, but tough.  CWRU or Hobart might upset Cortland but Midd would be favored against Cortland too.  Can the Panthers concentrate on a very tough 2nd round tilt (Hopkins or Babson) and not think about who they possibly could meet in the Elite 8?

Tufts will like their draw and if each wins a couple the drumbeat for finally getting Messiah vs Tufts will grow louder.  Would that match happen in Grantham or is there a conflict with the women? 

Best 1st round matchups?  Wash Coll vs Otterbein, Wartburg vs GAC, CWRU vs Hobart, Hopkins vs Babson, Ohio Northern vs Lynchburg, W&L vs West Conn.....honorable mentions to Conn vs Denison, Carleton vs Pac Lutheran, North Central vs UWEC, Colorado Coll vs Oglethrope, Oneonta vs Catholic.

I think if all the NESCAC teams, Conn ended up with most favorably draw despite being the lowest ranked. That being said to achieve your goals, you're gonna have to beat a whole bunch of good teams, so you might as well get them out of the way early.

For Tufts specifically, its going to be a tough opening weekend, and they are going to have to make home field count.  Tufts has been playing Salem St pretty consistently for the last few years and I would imagine Bridgewater St should be a similar side. 

I think Rochester should be favored over Johnson and Wales, and would present a tough test. When we played them back in the 2018 final four, Tufts had a pretty significant advantage in size and athleticism. I don't thint the current Tufts team is nearly as big as that one was so it would be an interesting matchup. But the worst thing you can do is overlook the first round opponent so the only thing that matters is Saturday

Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 06, 2023, 05:45:46 PM

Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 06, 2023, 05:03:30 PM

Quote from: bshu23 on November 06, 2023, 04:19:55 PM

Quote from: Midwest Fan on November 06, 2023, 04:08:41 PM
And North Central (MN) looks to continue their season as they appear on the bracket to be lining up against UW-Eau Claire. Kidding of course, but comical how this team continues to appear randomly(?) throughout NCAA's rankings, materials, etc.

Additionally, I'd be curious to hear any thoughts from the group on if there were any teams you felt were robbed of a bid and vice versa. Looking forward to the tourney!

Hi Midwest Fan, I think you have the wrong North Central. It is actually North Central (IL) from CCIW that is playing UW-Eau Claire.

Midwest Fan is well aware of that.  That's why he said "Kidding of course".  You see, earlier in the season the USC Regional Rankings had North Central (MN) in their rankings which obviously was a mistake due to confusing the two schools.  And then today, apparently the NCAA originally had North Central (MN) in their bracket instead of North Central (IL) before getting it corrected.  So that's what Midwest Fan is referring to and making light of.

I'm just glad to see that they got Johns Hopkins spelled correctly in the bracket after constantly having it spelled without the "s" on "John" in all their Regional Rankings.

Well, thanks for this attention to detail FW. :D Announcers so routinely get this wrong that I've learned to not even really have it register.

In the "turnabout is fair play" department, my former teammates jokingly refer to John Carroll as Johns Carolls.

Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 06, 2023, 06:51:44 PM

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 06, 2023, 06:24:22 PM
Tufts will like their draw and if each wins a couple the drumbeat for finally getting Messiah vs Tufts will grow louder.  Would that match happen in Grantham or is there a conflict with the women? 

Being an odd-numbered year, the women have hosting priority for the 1st/2nd Round weekend, which is why Messiah men are on the road to Lynchburg this coming weekend.  However, that mean's that the men have hosting priority for the Sectional weekend and Messiah would surely host their Sectional if they advance. 

So I'm kind of happy about the way that worked out, as I probably wouldn't have been able to get to games this weekend anyways because of my kids' games.  However, the following weekend should be wide open (I say hesitantly, knowing I am probably forgetting something or just don't know about something quite yet!).  Besides, which game would I rather see in person?  Messiah vs. Baruch or a Top 25 game?

FW I figure you are the expert on this. I understand the alternating priorities for men and women teams. But why could Amherst whose teams play on separate fields not have hosted both.

D4, sounds like we had similar reactions to the Conn draw.  That said, it's not an easy draw.  And depends quite a bit on how one views Denison, F&M, Montclair/CNU....NESCAC folks have reason to doubt how formidable F&M and Montclair might be, and you probably view CNU similarly, but very possible at least one of these teams will be better than you think.  If only looking at the opening weekend, Bridgewater/UR seems easier than Denison/F&M.  As for the second weekend, I doubt Tufts would mind playing W&L or Oneonta, and there's no one on the other side except for Messiah where Tufts wouldn't be the favorite.

Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 06, 2023, 06:51:44 PM

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 06, 2023, 06:24:22 PM
So I'm kind of happy about the way that worked out, as I probably wouldn't have been able to get to games this weekend anyways because of my kids' games.  However, the following weekend should be wide open (I say hesitantly, knowing I am probably forgetting something or just don't know about something quite yet!).  Besides, which game would I rather see in person?  Messiah vs. Baruch or a Top 25 game?

Biblical

Quote from: d4_Pace on November 06, 2023, 07:29:58 PM

Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 06, 2023, 06:51:44 PM

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 06, 2023, 06:24:22 PM
Tufts will like their draw and if each wins a couple the drumbeat for finally getting Messiah vs Tufts will grow louder.  Would that match happen in Grantham or is there a conflict with the women? 

Being an odd-numbered year, the women have hosting priority for the 1st/2nd Round weekend, which is why Messiah men are on the road to Lynchburg this coming weekend.  However, that mean's that the men have hosting priority for the Sectional weekend and Messiah would surely host their Sectional if they advance. 

So I'm kind of happy about the way that worked out, as I probably wouldn't have been able to get to games this weekend anyways because of my kids' games.  However, the following weekend should be wide open (I say hesitantly, knowing I am probably forgetting something or just don't know about something quite yet!).  Besides, which game would I rather see in person?  Messiah vs. Baruch or a Top 25 game?

FW I figure you are the expert on this. I understand the alternating priorities for men and women teams. But why could Amherst whose teams play on separate fields not have hosted both.

I think it's one of those things where it's a slippery slope if you start allowing exceptions to the general rule, even if in situations where the basis for the rule isn't an issue.  It could become an administrative mess to have to review all the requests for an exception and then log/track all the approved exceptions.  And it would open the door to other schools crying "Unfair!".  And it's not just about the fields, it is also about staffing and making sure both tournaments are well hosted and maybe even things like adequacy of parking, locker rooms, etc.

If Amherst would be allowed to do that, then soon you might have other schools trying to prove that they have an adequate alternate field to host tournament games and asking for the same exception as Amherst.  I think I've heard that Chicago and some other schools have two different fields (usually one grass, one turf) that get used for regular season games and could make a case for dual hosting.  And there surely are numerous schools like Messiah who have very high quality practice fields that could temporarily be lined with bleachers for the hosting games.  And some of these school can legitimately pull it off from a staffing/quality standpoint, but again, how do you review and determine who can pull that off?

It's just simpler to apply the rule consistently without allowing for exceptions, I imagine.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 06, 2023, 06:24:22 PM
Some other initial impressions...

Mary Wash better be in Elite 8 mode assuming they get JCU...sneaky tough 2nd rounder for one of the top seeds.

I like Conn's draw..tough for sure with Denison and F&M and then likely Montclair or CNU...but doable for them if they are on.  Not a good draw for Denison who surely hoped for better and will not have any physicality advantage versus a grizzled NESCAC.

I agree St Olaf got a nice draw and especially because if form holds will only have to play Calvin or Chicago and not both.  Not to say that Carleton, UW-P, North Central or even UWEC couldn't knock the Oles off but they should be favored. 

WPI hosting?  Wow.  Amherst has a good draw per usual...and they have history playing Trinity and Amherst isn't a team that UST is going to intimidate in the least.

Midd I think has a tough draw.  Doable, but tough.  CWRU or Hobart might upset Cortland but Midd would be favored against Cortland too.  Can the Panthers concentrate on a very tough 2nd round tilt (Hopkins or Babson) and not think about who they possibly could meet in the Elite 8?

Tufts will like their draw and if each wins a couple the drumbeat for finally getting Messiah vs Tufts will grow louder.  Would that match happen in Grantham or is there a conflict with the women? 

Best 1st round matchups?  Wash Coll vs Otterbein, Wartburg vs GAC, CWRU vs Hobart, Hopkins vs Babson, Ohio Northern vs Lynchburg, W&L vs West Conn.....honorable mentions to Conn vs Denison, Carleton vs Pac Lutheran, North Central vs UWEC, Colorado Coll vs Oglethrope, Oneonta vs Catholic.

PN, thanks for the insight and initial impressions. Curious to hear your thoughts on Kenyon's draw and their chances this time around? Certainly a familiar face for Coach Wall in the first round, as he faced Dominican just two years ago at St. Olaf.

On the issue of hosting both Men's and Women's, I'll channel G. Sager: I think it's too much of a burden/hassle for the hosting school to staff both events. I feel like he fairly routinely shoot down this notion, pointing to short-staffed ADs.

Midwest Fan, tbh I don't feel great about the Owl's chances. Dominican has a long and proud history and will be tough...and I would expect either 2nd round foe to have at least even odds for advancing.

Imo this is the weakest Kenyon team in quite a few years, and in that context I think Wall has done a fantastic job in his first season.  That said, they're capable when playing well.

If Kenyon does advance to the Sweet 16, Mary Washington would be a huge challenge obviously and if JCU there would be some nice drama since JCU ended/usurped Kenyon's pedestal in the region in early September.

Honestly I can see Washington College reaching the Elite 8...IF the Shoremen can get past Otterbein (which imo is one of the best 1st round matchups.

Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 07, 2023, 09:26:31 AM
On the issue of hosting both Men's and Women's, I'll channel G. Sager: I think it's too much of a burden/hassle for the hosting school to staff both events. I feel like he fairly routinely shoot down this notion, pointing to short-staffed ADs.

Not to mention that the staff will usually have other regular-season events going on to support.  Adding one tournament is plenty.

It's also an issue of fairness to the majority of schools that don't have facilities to host both men and women's tournaments in a weekend. 

Quote from: Ron Boerger on November 07, 2023, 10:18:41 AM

Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 07, 2023, 09:26:31 AM
On the issue of hosting both Men's and Women's, I'll channel G. Sager: I think it's too much of a burden/hassle for the hosting school to staff both events. I feel like he fairly routinely shoot down this notion, pointing to short-staffed ADs.

Not to mention that the staff will usually have other regular-season events going on to support.  Adding one tournament is plenty.

It's also an issue of fairness to the majority of schools that don't have facilities to host both men and women's tournaments in a weekend.

Think so too as to staffing.  F&M is doing Friday Saturday.  In the past it was generally Sat. Sun. I think it's because there is the final home football game on Saturday and one soccer game later in the afternoon is enough to staff.

Others can correct me if i am wrong but the only reason for Friday/saturday games are for regions where one team is unable to play on Sunday due to religious reasons.....

Several regions have Sat/Sunday with a football game earlier in the day at the host institution

Quote from: soccerpapa on November 07, 2023, 02:03:22 PM
Others can correct me if i am wrong but the only reason for Friday/saturday games are for regions where one team is unable to play on Sunday due to religious reasons.....

Several regions have Sat/Sunday with a football game earlier in the day at the host institution

Geneva College...

"Geneva College is a Christ-centered academic community that provides a comprehensive education to equip students for faithful and fruitful service to God and neighbor"

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2023, 02:08:40 PM

Quote from: soccerpapa on November 07, 2023, 02:03:22 PM
Others can correct me if i am wrong but the only reason for Friday/saturday games are for regions where one team is unable to play on Sunday due to religious reasons.....

Several regions have Sat/Sunday with a football game earlier in the day at the host institution

Makes more sense.

Geneva College...

"Geneva College is a Christ-centered academic community that provides a comprehensive education to equip students for faithful and fruitful service to God and neighbor"

Geneva probably does object to scheduling athletics on Sunday, but I cannot speak to that where others might have more knowledge. Their heritage, which they take seriously, lies in the "Covenanter" Presbyterians from Scotland. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covenanters

An important consequence of their Christian heritage was their strong, early commitment to educating freedmen after the Civil War. https://www.geneva.edu/blog/the-college/foundation-for-right-to-education

I think they joined D3 around 15 years ago, perhaps even later. Prior to that time they were either NAIA ( more likely) or D2. Dustin Shambach, perhaps the best GK in Falcon history, had played baseball at Geneva before transferring to Messiah. He coaches at Virginia Wesleyan today. https://vwuathletics.com/sports/mens-soccer/roster/coaches/dustin-shambach/57

Wonder how many current teams are coached by Messiah grads?

Right now F&M, Geneva and obviously Messiah

Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 07, 2023, 08:15:19 PM
Wonder how many current teams are coached by Messiah grads?

Right now F&M, Geneva and obviously Messiah

Quite a number of Middlebury alums are head coaches, all having played for the legendary Dave Saward:

In this year's DIII tourney, alone:

*Midd's own Alex Elias
*Western New England's Devin O'Neill, who will face his alma mater in the first round
*Tuft's Kyle Dezotell

Plus, Bowdoin's Scott Wiercinski and Harvard's Josh Shapiro (who won four national titles coaching Tufts)

Quite a coaching legacy begun under Coach Saward.

This is silly...now let's do Jay Martin.

It really is OK for other schools to hold the attention for more than five seconds.

How many national titles did the legendary Dave Saward win?

I believe he won the one championship inn 2007.  But I would imagine that many posting here would count longevity and consistent excellence as important factors, in addition to the number of national titles.

Coaching statistics for David Saward (33 years, 359-126-59, .714).  Please keep in mind that NESCAC schools were not permitted to compete in the NCAA tournament from 1971 until the 1993-94 school year. 

Since the NCAA first offered a division 3 men's championship in 1974, there have been only 25 different individuals to win one as a coach.  Dave Brandt has 6 titles, Mike Parker and Brad McCarty have 5, Josh Shapiro has 4, Derek Armstrong 3, Bill Rogers, Dan Gilmore, Mike Berticelli, Joe Bean and Jay Martin 2 each.  The single winners are Bob Hartwell, Walk Kopczuck, Mike Coven, Skip Roderick, Tony Ochrimenko, John Cunningham, Mike Russo, George Nazario, Bob Durocher, Jeff Haines, Paul McGinlay, Dave Saward, Justin Serpone, Reuben Burk, and Julianne Sitch.

Fun Fact: There are 14 coaches in the tournament this year who are coaching at their Alma Mater...

Jon Anderson; Babson
Dima Kamenshchik; Baruch
Justin Chezem; CNU
Steve Axtell; Cortland
Erick Baumann; Dominican (IL)
Dejan Mladenovic; John Carroll
Brad McCarty; Messiah
Alex Elias; Middlebury
Todd Tumelty; Montclair State
Chris Matejka; ONU
John Yorke   ; Pacific Lutheran
Jason Hirsch; UT-Dallas
Joe Mooney; UW-Superior
Joe Mingachos; West Conn

Did the Muhls replace that grass field with artificial turf?

Quote from: camosfan on November 08, 2023, 10:27:22 AM
Did the Muhls replace that grass field with artificial turf?

Indeed they did.

SC.

So @PaulNewman and I got together to run through the brackets... and give shout outs to some folks on the boards...

The New Show - The Frigid Bracketology Episode (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr2kjyUlV_o)

Hope you enjoy.  All meant in fun.

SC.

Thanks!

Enjoyed the last 2 shows and glad you are capable with chirping back.

Great show!

Show was great. Thanks for doing it.

Quote from: SimpleCoach on November 08, 2023, 10:49:28 AM
So @PaulNewman and I got together to run through the brackets... and give shout outs to some folks on the boards...

The New Show - The Frigid Bracketology Episode (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr2kjyUlV_o)

Hope you enjoy.  All meant in fun.

SC.

[poor man's Gregory Sager]

The UW-Platteville Pioneers logo has mining picks because one of the schools that merged to form the school had originally been called the Wisconsin Mining Trade School.

SUNY Poly (short for SUNY Polytechnical Institute) used to be know as SUNYIT or SUNY Tech (short for SUNY Institute of Technology) before merging with another school in 2014.

The Alfred State mascot is an ox, not a bull (i.e, he's been castrated!).  In a 2018 rebranding of the athletic department, the ox, later named "Big Blue" was selected over a bear and a dog to be the new animal mascot to replace human characters Orvis the Pioneer and previously Pioneer Pete.

[/poor man's Gregory Sager]


It is interesting how the mascot for the Lake Forest Foresters is not a Forester but rather a black bear named "Boomer", but not dissimilar to Alfred State with the Pioneer name/Ox Mascot.

Quote from: SimpleCoach on November 08, 2023, 10:49:28 AM
So @PaulNewman and I got together to run through the brackets... and give shout outs to some folks on the boards...

The New Show - The Frigid Bracketology Episode (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr2kjyUlV_o)

Hope you enjoy.  All meant in fun.

SC.

Nicely done, gents!  I always appreciate your comfortable rapport.

Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 08, 2023, 01:46:43 PM

Quote from: SimpleCoach on November 08, 2023, 10:49:28 AM
So @PaulNewman and I got together to run through the brackets... and give shout outs to some folks on the boards...

The New Show - The Frigid Bracketology Episode (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr2kjyUlV_o)

Hope you enjoy.  All meant in fun.

SC.

[poor man's Gregory Sager]

The UW-Platteville Pioneers logo has mining picks because one of the schools that merged to form the school had originally been called the Wisconsin Mining Trade School.

SUNY Poly (short for SUNY Polytechnical Institute) used to be know as SUNYIT or SUNY Tech (short for SUNY Institute of Technology) before merging with another school in 2014.

The Alfred State mascot is an ox, not a bull (i.e, he's been castrated!).  In a 2018 rebranding of the athletic department, the ox, later named "Big Blue" was selected over a bear and a dog to be the new animal mascot to replace human characters Orvis the Pioneer and previously Pioneer Pete.

[/poor man's Gregory Sager]


It is interesting how the mascot for the Lake Forest Foresters is not a Forester but rather a black bear named "Boomer", but not dissimilar to Alfred State with the Pioneer name/Ox Mascot.

Fantastic!

But also bittersweet...as it's a reminder of all your great work and contributions over the years.

And absolutely love when you show your sense of humor.

Btw, do you think you could do that with all 410-415 teams?

Quote from: Ron Boerger on November 06, 2023, 05:47:25 PM
Bracket challenge is up at https://d3challenge.com/ .

Thank you!

Quote from: SimpleCoach on November 08, 2023, 10:49:28 AM
So @PaulNewman and I got together to run through the brackets... and give shout outs to some folks on the boards...

The New Show - The Frigid Bracketology Episode (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr2kjyUlV_o)

Hope you enjoy.  All meant in fun.

SC.

Enjoyed the show gentlemen and in terms of my preparation for game 1,  it was merely to check some background on the Wildcats.  Not sure I have the  patience for compiling thirty five bullet points, let alone expect Coach Serpone to use any of them.

Bids by conference...

NESCAC = 4

UAA = 4

Centennial = 3

OAC = 3

NCAC = 3

MIAC = 3

C2C = 3

SCAC = 3

ODAC = 2

SUNYAC = 2

NJAC = 1 (biggest surprise?)

NEWMAC 2

Quote from: SKUD on November 09, 2023, 09:09:00 AM
NEWMAC 2

Thanks, good catch.

CCIW 2

Quote from: soccerpapa on November 09, 2023, 11:27:28 AM
CCIW 2

I had to think for a minute to remember the second one.

Illinois Wesleyan had one of the most unlikely runs to win an AQ.

Finished the regular season losing to North Central 5-1 and having a record of 5-6-3.

CCIW quarterfinal draw with North Park (couple weeks after beating the Vikings despite being down 2-0) and advance on PKs 7-6.

CCIW semis draw with Wheaton and again take PKs 7-6.

In CCIW final Illinois Wesleyan spots Carthage a 2-0 lead to the 71st minute when the Spartans (it's the Spartans, rite?) earn a PK and go one to score two more in regulation to win the CCIW tournament 3-2.


Titans!

Simple Coach and PN - excellent job on the video.

Being a NESCAC fan, i am intrigued by how they match up with other conferences.  Amherst's win over Montclair St is certainly impressive as is Wesleyans win over NYU.  Babson provided some sobriety with their 1-1-1 record against 3 top teams.  Also Middlebury could not get a big non conf win at Vassar but got a draw on the road.

I still think the NESCAC squads all have potential for a very deep run.  Middlebury is the enigma.  In my opinion they have the most well rounded team, including a little depth, and a top GK; they are skilled and physical. For the first time in many years they have the top conference set piece player in Madden....but, they have failed to impress on the road over the last two seasons and I wonder if they can reach their potential. My guess is the senior heavy team knows its their year. Will that bring confidence or pressure?  They looked a bit nervous in the NESCAC semis.

They will be a near impossible out at home with strong support although Babson and probably Hopkins are certainly capable.But my guess is that they may need to go to Cortland in the sweet 16 and win a big one on the road.

Amherst will do what Amherst does.  I would hate to have to go to Hitchcock field and knock them off, especially with Ada and Nadu playing so well, although Mary Washington did it last year (and topped it off with knocking out Bowdoin)

Tufts is looking real good after a successful weekend and they have a handful of players with deep NCAA experience. They can score in a variety of ways. Like Conn they have a very skilled front 4 who are maturing nicely.  A dynasty match up in Mechanicsburg would be great for D3 soccer.

Conn will also do what Conn does.  They got the toughest draw, having to go to F&M on a night time schedule but they are also battle tested with a handful of guys with deep NCAA experience. Scaffone and Creus  are proven snipers in big contests.  However, getting through my number 1 Mary Washington (best overall resume) will be a tall task.

I do not see a lot of D3 soccer outside the Northeast so will be intrigued if another Chicago emerges as the clear cut best and most deserving team like last year. MW and Messiah clearly have that potential.

Also, I am not sure I agree with you about the TX teams getting screwed in playing each other.  None of the region X teams have the RPI strength and RvR strength to warrant leadership in a bracket, which is why they are put together.

Coach, thanks for watching.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the Texas/West Coast teams.  I hear you that you don't watch much outside the Northeast/New England, but there are threads here where even in the last couple of days long-time observers of Region X have underscored a consistent pattern over at least two decades.  And after making them play each other, whoever gets to the 2nd weekend likely will be sent somewhere that doesn't make a ton of sense.  Trinity got sent to Amherst one or two years and to Tufts another one.  Many observers have noted that the NCAA is keenly aware of geography and expenses.

I think Midd has the toughest draw among the NESCACs with Conn very, very close behind.  I'm hoping Midd would host the second weekend but I fear it will be Amherst.  Cortland might be a nice compromise but my guess is Amherst.

I'm gonna guess that Middlebury is ready to go and is up to the pressure.  I suspect Tufts was their "nerves" game and I hope they will play up to potential and let the chips fall where they may.  I will say I was thoroughly impressed with how Grady handled his error.  He immediately took ownership, stayed calm, and I think kept his team calm.  That was as impressive to me or more than some of his great saves.  As for Madden....all he has to do is channel his inner Nick Boardman and the Panthers should be good to go.

Agree that any and all of the four NESCACs can make a deep run. 

The question of how other teams would fare in the NESCAC (which isn't exactly what you posed but close) is interesting to me.  Would St Thomas finish in 9th or 10th place or in the 4-6 range?  Can ask that same question of some of the presumed top teams in the Midwest and Mid-Atlantic as well.  I am very curious to watch the Denison vs Conn game.  My gut tells me Conn will handle Denison fairly easily, but maybe that is not the case.  We'll see.  Also interesting to think about whether 5th place Bowdoin would win the OAC, or NCAC, or MIAC, etc.  Certainly possible that they would.

And I would love to see a Messiah vs Tufts rematch!

Paul Newman's NCAA Tournament Trivia Corner

Has there ever been another NCAA Champion besides Conn College to win the title after going to PKs in a 1st round match?  Salem State was the opponent.

Bonus question... Has there been another team to advance on PKs in the 1st round and then win the title via PKs in the national final?

Conn got to the Final Four in 2021 by beating Tufts at Tufts in a wildly entertaining Elite 8 game 5-4.  And speaking of West Coast and travel, Conn got to the Elite 8 by besting Redlands 1-0 in the Sweet 16....in Medford, MA.

Addendum related to the Region X issue...Redlands got to the Sweet 16 out of a pod played at Pacific Lutheran.  In the first round Pacific Lutheran advanced in PKs over Trinity while Redlands ousted Concordia (TX) 2-0.  Redlands then disposed of Pac Lutheran 4-1 in 2nd round.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 09, 2023, 10:24:35 PM
Paul Newman's NCAA Tournament Trivia Corner

Has there ever been another NCAA Champion besides Conn College to win the title after going to PKs in a 1st round match?  Salem State was the opponent.

Bonus question... Has there been another team to advance on PKs in the 1st round and then win the title via PKs in the national final?

Conn got to the Final Four in 2021 by beating Tufts at Tufts in a wildly entertaining Elite 8 game 5-4.  And speaking of West Coast and travel, Conn got to the Elite 8 by besting Redlands 1-0 in the Sweet 16....in Medford, MA.

I was there in person for that Redlands Conn game and if I remember it was a goal off a corner kick in the last 5 minutes or so... details may be fuzzy..

Conn 1 Redlands 0....Horvath scored off Jaran assist (corner?) at 88:56.  Heartbreaking for Redlands.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 09, 2023, 10:24:35 PM
Paul Newman's NCAA Tournament Trivia Corner

Has there ever been another NCAA Champion besides Conn College to win the title after going to PKs in a 1st round match?  Salem State was the opponent.

Bonus question... Has there been another team to advance on PKs in the 1st round and then win the title via PKs in the national final?

I knew that was never the case for Messiah in their 11 titles, although they did need OT in their tournament opener (2nd Round) in 2005 against Wesleyan (CT) before making a dominate run to the final where they claimed their fourth title over Gustavus Adolphus 1-0. 

The two possibilities that came to mind were Middlebury in 2007 (who I thought might be the answer to the bonus question) and Bethany (WV) in the mid-90's.  So I had to look it up.  Alas, Middlebury did score goals in the early rounds (had a 1st Round bye) that year before their scoreless Final Four triumph via PKs. 

But Bethany did not let me down.  They opened with a PK advancement over Greensboro after a 1-1 tie and proceeded to claim the championship by the narrowest of margins in the history of the D-III men's soccer tournament: 1-0 in 2OT in the Sweet 16, 2-2 (4OT)(PK adv) in the Elite 8, 0-0 (2OT)(PK adv) in the semifinal, and then a 1-0 2OT win in the Final over Hopkins.  The whole tournament that year was marked by 1-goal margins, overtimes, PKs.  In the Elite 8, three games went to OT, two to PKs, and the one non-OT game was a 1-0 victory.  Only one of the semifinalists had won a game by more than a single goal in regulation.  Bethany might be the most improbable champion of all-time.  They entered the tournament at 13-5-1 and came into the Final Four with more losses than the other three teams combined: UW-Oshkosh (R.I.P.) was undefeated, host Trenton State (now TCNJ) had a single loss, and Hopkins had a pair of losses.  They played a man down in the 2nd Half and OT of the opening round game.  In the Elite 8 they got paired with the defending champion and powerhouse UC-San Diego (3 titles in previous 6 years) who looked on pace for back-to-back titles with two tournament shutouts bringing their win total to 21.  Here's a documentary about their championship with some footage of their tournament games: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L302vvY7_RM

I then had to see if another team pulled off the feat and found 1984 Wheaton (Ill.) who needed PK's to get past Rockford in the opening round en route to their first national championship.  (Historic Factoid: prior to 1991, teams were awarded a win or loss instead of ties in games decided by PKs, with the victor having a goal added to their final score.)  Wheaton were almost the answer to your bonus question as the Thunder needed three overtimes periods to defeat Brandeis in the final, 2-1.  I don't think there's any other case of a national champion starting and finishing their title run with PK victories besides Conn Col. in 2021.  If I'm not mistaken, only four finals have been decided on PK's.

Quote from: coach analytics on November 09, 2023, 06:17:44 PM

Also, I am not sure I agree with you about the TX teams getting screwed in playing each other.  None of the region X teams have the RPI strength and RvR strength to warrant leadership in a bracket, which is why they are put together.

Try putting together a schedule to build "RPI strength and RvR strength" when you have less than ten non-conference teams you can play without getting on a plane and half of those suck.

FW, well played. You almost never disappoint.

Exciting day tomorrow. Some games that I'm looking forward to if they were to happen. Babson vs Middlebury. Messiah vs Tufts. Mary Washington vs Conn College. Cortland vs Midd.  Calvin vs UChicago. Amherst vs any of the Texas teams, it's time to see how dominant the NESCAC actually is. My prediction is that we see 2-3 NESCACS in the Final 4. An upset I like in the first round is West Conn over Washington and Lee.

Quote from: flyingdutchman on November 10, 2023, 10:47:26 AM
Exciting day tomorrow. Some games that I'm looking forward to if they were to happen. Babson vs Middlebury. Messiah vs Tufts. Mary Washington vs Conn College. Cortland vs Midd.  Calvin vs UChicago. Amherst vs any of the Texas teams, it's time to see how dominant the NESCAC actually is. My prediction is that we see 2-3 NESCACS in the Final 4. An upset I like in the first round is West Conn over Washington and Lee.

Several good games today!  Conn College v Dennison. Gust Adolphus v. Wartburg as well. Just a taste!!

Was curious about team performance heading into the championship, so I downloaded team stats from NCAA.org and summarized on the Team Summary tab here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NWpmK_bCKUs-pK77HMmYuwTUQ3cpF38kkzOjpCW4y9A/edit?usp=sharing (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NWpmK_bCKUs-pK77HMmYuwTUQ3cpF38kkzOjpCW4y9A/edit?usp=sharing)

Data was games thru 11/8, so post conference championships.  I added filters for the NCAA field including Pool A vs B/C.  Understand there are many variables but my hunch was SoS might be a good predictor for a winner as the last 3 years the champion had a regionally ranked SoS of .6 or greater.  (Note the OWS on here is not the same as the regionally ranked ones as explained by Christian S--it does not include OOWS.) I'm not so sure about my hunch as some teams like Univ of Chicago seem to have consistently high SoS every year.

Anyhow if you are into this sort of thing there are all kinds of team stats from records to offensive and defense plays and even attendance.  You can sort or pivot on teams or conferences.

For those making picks for your office pools, keep in mind that there are a couple of head-fakes in terms of hosting.

Wartburg is hosting so they get GAC at home, and presumably the winner will play the top seed, Calvin, at Wartburg.

Same deal with Lynchburg hosting where Messiah very obviously is the top seed (not just in the pod but the whole tourney).  Probably won't matter much to Messiah but definitely an advantage for Lynchburg versus ONU.

Quote from: Freddyfud on November 10, 2023, 01:46:35 PM
Was curious about team performance heading into the championship, so I downloaded team stats from NCAA.org and summarized on the Team Summary tab here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NWpmK_bCKUs-pK77HMmYuwTUQ3cpF38kkzOjpCW4y9A/edit?usp=sharing (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NWpmK_bCKUs-pK77HMmYuwTUQ3cpF38kkzOjpCW4y9A/edit?usp=sharing)

Data was games thru 11/8, so post conference championships.  I added filters for the NCAA field including Pool A vs B/C.  Understand there are many variables but my hunch was SoS might be a good predictor for a winner as the last 3 years the champion had a regionally ranked SoS of .6 or greater.  (Note the OWS on here is not the same as the regionally ranked ones as explained by Christian S--it does not include OOWS.) I'm not so sure about my hunch as some teams like Univ of Chicago seem to have consistently high SoS every year.

Anyhow if you are into this sort of thing there are all kinds of team stats from records to offensive and defense plays and even attendance.  You can sort or pivot on teams or conferences.

Nice!  It was interesting to see attendance.  The accumulated attendance numbers for Occidental (10,322) and Messiah (8,824) so far outpace every other school that it's really impressive.  And Oxy does it without the years of success that Messiah has had to build up that fan base.  If they can find a way to be a regular qualifier and get another SCIAC team there with them, Oxy really has to host an NCAA tournament pod.  I expect they would get close to filling their 4,000 seat capacity (and Jack Kemp would be rolling in his grave). 

Quote from: Kuiper on November 10, 2023, 02:13:51 PM

Quote from: Freddyfud on November 10, 2023, 01:46:35 PM
Was curious about team performance heading into the championship, so I downloaded team stats from NCAA.org and summarized on the Team Summary tab here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NWpmK_bCKUs-pK77HMmYuwTUQ3cpF38kkzOjpCW4y9A/edit?usp=sharing (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NWpmK_bCKUs-pK77HMmYuwTUQ3cpF38kkzOjpCW4y9A/edit?usp=sharing)

Data was games thru 11/8, so post conference championships.  I added filters for the NCAA field including Pool A vs B/C.  Understand there are many variables but my hunch was SoS might be a good predictor for a winner as the last 3 years the champion had a regionally ranked SoS of .6 or greater.  (Note the OWS on here is not the same as the regionally ranked ones as explained by Christian S--it does not include OOWS.) I'm not so sure about my hunch as some teams like Univ of Chicago seem to have consistently high SoS every year.

Anyhow if you are into this sort of thing there are all kinds of team stats from records to offensive and defense plays and even attendance.  You can sort or pivot on teams or conferences.

Nice!  It was interesting to see attendance.  The accumulated attendance numbers for Occidental (10,322) and Messiah (8,824) so far outpace every other school that it's really impressive.  And Oxy does it without the years of success that Messiah has had to build up that fan base.  If they can find a way to be a regular qualifier and get another SCIAC team there with them, Oxy really has to host an NCAA tournament pod.  I expect they would get close to filling their 4,000 seat capacity (and Jack Kemp would be rolling in his grave).

But Oxy gave up football, so there is not much competition for attendance.

Quote from: Gray Fox on November 10, 2023, 02:17:23 PM

Quote from: Kuiper on November 10, 2023, 02:13:51 PM

Quote from: Freddyfud on November 10, 2023, 01:46:35 PM
Was curious about team performance heading into the championship, so I downloaded team stats from NCAA.org and summarized on the Team Summary tab here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NWpmK_bCKUs-pK77HMmYuwTUQ3cpF38kkzOjpCW4y9A/edit?usp=sharing (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NWpmK_bCKUs-pK77HMmYuwTUQ3cpF38kkzOjpCW4y9A/edit?usp=sharing)

Data was games thru 11/8, so post conference championships.  I added filters for the NCAA field including Pool A vs B/C.  Understand there are many variables but my hunch was SoS might be a good predictor for a winner as the last 3 years the champion had a regionally ranked SoS of .6 or greater.  (Note the OWS on here is not the same as the regionally ranked ones as explained by Christian S--it does not include OOWS.) I'm not so sure about my hunch as some teams like Univ of Chicago seem to have consistently high SoS every year.

Anyhow if you are into this sort of thing there are all kinds of team stats from records to offensive and defense plays and even attendance.  You can sort or pivot on teams or conferences.

Nice!  It was interesting to see attendance.  The accumulated attendance numbers for Occidental (10,322) and Messiah (8,824) so far outpace every other school that it's really impressive.  And Oxy does it without the years of success that Messiah has had to build up that fan base.  If they can find a way to be a regular qualifier and get another SCIAC team there with them, Oxy really has to host an NCAA tournament pod.  I expect they would get close to filling their 4,000 seat capacity (and Jack Kemp would be rolling in his grave).

But Oxy gave up football, so there is not much competition for attendance.

True.  There's no question that fans, including most importantly students, have turned to soccer since football was dropped (although Oxy's improvement in soccer coincided with dropping football, so some of it may have happened anyway).  Nevertheless, there are other schools across the country that either never had football or don't have it anymore and don't have attendance numbers anywhere close to Occidental.

I think the stadium capacities could be misleading.  For example William Peace is listed at 10K and plays at Wake Med Soccer Park in Cary, NC.  But they play on one of the side fields not in Sahlen's Stadium which seats 10K (site for the NWSL Courage, TST this summer and the D1 soccer finals the past few years.)

Quote from: Freddyfud on November 10, 2023, 02:37:31 PM
I think the stadium capacities could be misleading.  For example William Peace is listed at 10K and plays at Wake Med Soccer Park in Cary, NC.  But they play on one of the side fields not in Sahlen's Stadium which seats 10K (site for the NWSL Courage, TST this summer and the D1 soccer finals the past few years.)

I saw that too and thought many of the capacities are off.  St. Thomas (TX) lists 500, but that must be old because they've been playing their home games at SaberCat Stadium, the home of the Major League Rugby team, which has a capacity of between 3K and 4K depending upon whether you count standing room only.  As a practical matter, there are very few D3 soccer teams where percentage of seating capacity means anything.

Quote from: Freddyfud on November 10, 2023, 01:46:35 PM
Was curious about team performance heading into the championship, so I downloaded team stats from NCAA.org and summarized on the Team Summary tab here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NWpmK_bCKUs-pK77HMmYuwTUQ3cpF38kkzOjpCW4y9A/edit?usp=sharing (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NWpmK_bCKUs-pK77HMmYuwTUQ3cpF38kkzOjpCW4y9A/edit?usp=sharing)

Data was games thru 11/8, so post conference championships.  I added filters for the NCAA field including Pool A vs B/C.  Understand there are many variables but my hunch was SoS might be a good predictor for a winner as the last 3 years the champion had a regionally ranked SoS of .6 or greater.  (Note the OWS on here is not the same as the regionally ranked ones as explained by Christian S--it does not include OOWS.) I'm not so sure about my hunch as some teams like Univ of Chicago seem to have consistently high SoS every year.

Anyhow if you are into this sort of thing there are all kinds of team stats from records to offensive and defense plays and even attendance.  You can sort or pivot on teams or conferences.

In other bits of information from this spreadsheet that may be of interest only to me, it's no surprise that St. Thomas leads the field in red cards with 7 considering all of the bad press they have received, but it's more interesting that there are a bunch of schools close behind them in total red cards.  Elmira and Manhattanville, for instance, each have 6, while Babson and Brevard each have 5.  What's the story with these schools?  St. Thomas at least picked up a bunch of its red cards in one debacle of a game.  Were these other schools involved in a brawl that flew under the radar?  It can't be just one hot-headed player because eventually sitting out all of those games would have slowed him down.

St. Thomas also doesn't come close to leading in yellow cards.  It only has 40.  Amherst is the leader with 48, Brevard has 44, and North Central (IL) and Lake Forest have 43 each.  In fact, Brevard's 5 reds and 44 yellows rivals St. Thomas' 7 reds and 40 yellows.

Also, a hat tip to Messiah with only 8 yellow cards all season.  Even for a team that plays possession-based soccer and doesn't necessarily need to press the heck out of its opponents or dive in on desperation tackles, it's hard to have single digit yellow cards.  While it's probably at least in part attributable to being (far) ahead in many of its matches, I wonder if there is a "halo effect" at work here.  After all, if the fine gents at Amherst can get some yellows on bad reputation alone (as has been suggested), couldn't Messiah be avoiding a few based on good reputation?

Not sure the reasons why for the other teams but I added some per game columns to normalize.  St Thomas only played 17 games vs the others at 18.  When I do that curiously Ill Wesleyan is actually ahead of St Thomas in yellow cards per game since they only played 16 games.

Some of the other per game categories are interesting at least to perhaps explain how some of the teams qualified.  In the field of 64, the best goals/game is Alfred St., shots on goal/game is Wis-Superior, saves/game is Bridgewater St. and shut outs/game is Wartburg.  Maybe these are some clues to watch as the tournament progresses. For example if Wartburg can hold their game scoreless, do they have an edge?

F&M finally breaks through with a goal in the 71st minute to take a 1-0 lead at home v. Geneva.  F&M's press helped with the goal, but it was a classic defender mistake where he tried to head it back to his keeper, but didn't have enough power and left it short.  Maybe the GK could have been farther off his line, but the ball got into the spot from a towering F&M header that caught everyone a little flat on defense.  In those situations, I would rather the defender head it down and to the side or even stop and shield so the forward has to run through his back and foul him rather than try to head it with that much pressure on him.

Presumably, this will open up the game a bit and F&M will get a bit more space to operate.

UPDATE: 

FINAL:  F&M 1 - Geneva 0

The first goal did give F&M more room to operate, but they weren't able to do anything with it.  I was kind of shocked how much room they gave that Geneva player to take the shot at the top of the box for the final action of the game, but when I saw how bad it was, I guess they had very good scouting!  In any event, win and advance regardless of whether it is pretty or not.

Done. 1-0. Not F&Ms best. Geneva keeper was pretty passive the whole game. Obviously could have more. Will definitely have to play way way better tomorrow against Conn or Denison.  Total revert to how they played the last two years as opposed to about 4 games ago. Great till last 1/4 of the field.

Conn College scores a very early (3rd minute) goal and is up 1-0 on Denison.

I don't know if the actual goal was a GK error (it was a well-placed corner in traffic), but I'm sure the Denison keeper should not have gone after the original shot.  His touch of the ball before he realized it was well wide resulted in the corner.  Probably first few minute of first round jitters, but that's often the difference in these tight margin games.

UPDATE:  Conn 1 - Denison 1

Denison saves their GK with a corner kick goal of their own in the 13th minute.  Silvester seemed to be set too high and thought he could get a corner that went over his outstretched hands in what was almost an olimpico delivery.  Somehow, a Denison player was free on the back post and hammered it home.

Not the same but similar to Middlebury s flub in the early min of NESCAC semis.

scores equal!

Couple of scrappy goals in the GAC - Wartburg match leaves it even halfway through the first half. GAC scored very early but Wartburg have taken advantage of set-pieces and second chances to leave it knotted up.

No clue how the second half will go but happily surprised and pleased with how Denison is showing tonight.  Overcame a fluky start and played head to head with Conn imo and probably outplayed Conn that half (although Pilson did nearly get one for Conn).

I'm also recalling Kuiper talking about highly rated GKs who might lack NCAA experience.  Denison GK is the top keeper in the NCAC...very good player.  Could tell he's feeling some nerves even with that punchout late in the half.

Silvester of course won a PK shootout for Conn to win a national title.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 10, 2023, 07:49:52 PM
No clue how the second half will go but happily surprised and pleased with how Denison is showing tonight.  Overcame a fluky start and played head to head with Conn imo and probably outplayed Conn that half (although Pilson did nearly get one for Conn).

I'm also recalling Kuiper talking about highly rated GKs who might lack NCAA experience.  Denison GK is the top keeper in the NCAC...very good player.  Could tell he's feeling some nerves even with that punchout late in the half.

Silvester of course won a PK shootout for Conn to win a national title.

One thing that occurred to me that can happen to GKs without being visible to observers is that sometimes they do intend to collect a ball like that - perhaps because they would prefer the ball in their hands since it gives them the option to throw, punt, or drop kick it from anywhere in the box or even set it down and pass it from the ground outside the box -- but a coach or defender yells at them right as they are going for the ball and tells them to let it go.  It is generally a bad idea to yell at the GK in that situation.  You introduce indecision into the movement and the GK, who might have been sure he was going to get it, withdraws one hand, but not the other completely and flubs it.  So, if we give him the benefit of the doubt, it might have been something like that.  Still, the more experienced the keeper in that moment, the better they are able to tune that stuff out. 

Enjoying the broadcast from Lancaster this evening for both games.  Commentator is refreshingly not annoying and the camera is also spot on.  Of course the highlights are a nice touch too.

Wow, Denison should've won it there at the end. Just not enough composure from Krueger there in a 1v1 situation, looked like the touch let him down at the crucial moment.

Denison 1 Connecticut College 3

I missed the middle 60 minutes as I was attending a local council event discussing proposed street changes in downtown Enmore, but did see the overtime.  The parts of the game I did see felt pretty even and has already been pointed out, Denison had a very good chance right at the end of normal time, which would have sent the Camels packing.  My feeling was that the two penalties Conn were awarded looked on the soft side, but I hasten to add the camera angle wasn't ideal for evaluation and there also wasn't a great amount of protest from Denison, so perhaps they were fair.  Conn march on and the next game against F&M already has the hallmarks of a pretty attractive second round affair.  Is there any special name for the final 32?

I liked the commentator for this game and also the replays, which was a nice touch.  Unfortunately, the camera angle wasn't quite right for the goalmouth action during live play, but it was definitely a lot better than not being able to watch at all.

I'm not technologically minded (partially because I am busy working on my Luther-like 32 bullet points to nail to the door of an unsuspecting hotel room somewhere in Worcester) but if anyone had the time and ability to put together highlights packages of each round, they would get maximum karma from me and a few others I am sure.

Calvin 5-0 winner over Greenville will face the Gustie who won 3-1 over the host team Wartburg.  Should be a good second round game.

Quote from: Freddyfud on November 10, 2023, 08:11:51 PM
Enjoying the broadcast from Lancaster this evening for both games.  Commentator is refreshingly not annoying and the camera is also spot on.  Of course the highlights are a nice touch too.

Yeah, he has gotten better. Used to sound like a football announcer and feel pressure to fill. Also impressed with how many facts he brought up with the second game. Also all schools just leave the second game silent. That was a nice touch. Camera and reply has also gotten really better.

Even with replays I could not see the first PK given to Conn well enough to have an opinion.  That of course was the huge one.  Denison could have won it but on balance probably didn't do enough to earn a win albeit performing quite well.  They will be back and Bianco will keep the talent level on an upwards trajectory.

I think Conn misses Jaren and maybe #9 too.  Jaren has now missed the better part of two seasons.  Very unfortunate because very talented and fun to watch.

I never pick against Calvin in this kind of spot, but do not sleep on GAC.  The Gusties are very good and tenacious.  Should be a great battle.

The first PK was legit, definitely a foul.  The second looked late especially since he took the shot already, but the GK gave up a rebound so that is why it was called in that the shot taker could have possibly reached the rebound if he was not taken down.

Back to the hosting question: Did anyone every figure out why neither Amherst team is hosting this weekend?

SUNY Poly and Amherst coaches going at it following the second goal.  Apparently the Amherst goal scorer was not happy with the SUNY bench and promptly shushed them up close after the goal.  Sporting of the Amherst coach to pull him off after he was booked.  Edit: or maybe he needed to protect him from accumulation.

Pace of the game is rather slow with neither team keeping possession very long.

W&L over West Conn 2-0. Score really should have been higher.. Unfortunately #7 looks like he's out for the,rest of the tournament.

ETA, a few follow up comments -- West Conn had 2 red cards. Also, SOS means something; they were a weak team.

Quote from: Freddyfud on November 11, 2023, 12:35:24 PM
SUNY Poly and Amherst coaches going at it following the second goal.  Apparently the Amherst goal scorer was not happy with the SUNY bench and promptly shushed them up close after the goal.  Sporting of the Amherst coach to pull him off after he was booked.  Edit: or maybe he needed to protect him from accumulation.

Pace of the game is rather slow with neither team keeping possession very long.

Little more than that, he ran right up to the touch line about a foot away from the players and did it along the whole bench.  It's always something with this team every single year.   

I know I'm just being picky... but is it too much to ask of the NCAA to have links for the stats and stream on the match pages?

Quote from: BTXCru18 on November 11, 2023, 01:20:53 PM
I know I'm just being picky... but is it too much to ask of the NCAA to have links for the stats and stream on the match pages?

Why??  Might promote the game??

SUNY Poly 1 Amherst 2

Whilst the D3 cognoscenti had already given this game to the Mammoths, for this correspondent at least, the uncertainty of knock out football means that there will be a feeling on unease.  Player management at this time of the year is important and Amherst started the game with a different look, rotating more than a few players in, with a view to an undoubtedly difficult game in prospect against either WPI or Stevens.  This meant a slightly disjointed game by the Mammoths, where they took time to get going.  The Wildcats had a couple of lively forwards that needed watching and there was one skilful shot executed which required a save from the purple shirted keeper.  The Amherst goal was the end result of what had been a tidy move by the white shirts, with one of the freshmen finishing from a quite acute angle. 

For the second half, the Amherst line up had a more familiar look to it and whilst there was the feel of assurance about their play, the reality was that the Wildcats continued to play their game and had every right to feel right in it.  Where the game did change a bit was that the Mammoths midfield started to take more control and a few opportunities started to be created, one of which was converted by one of the seniors, who perhaps could have been more judicious in his manner of celebration. 

At this stage, I am sure the Amherst game plan was to get another goal and then hopefully start to rotate a few players, but to the Wildcats' credit, they weren't going away.  The livestream didn't keep up with the play, so we couldn't see the own goal.  It ironically was probably at this stage where Amherst did actually start to take proper control of the game and make it difficult for the Wildcats to get inside their penalty area and in the end, there weren't too many stressful moments for Mammoths coaches, players and supporters alike.

All credit to the Wildcats, they looked a lot better than what their Massey rating would suggest and had a couple of forwards who with the right service could be pretty dangerous.  For Amherst, it's a case of move on and get ready for tomorrow, which of course, is what tournament football is all about.  The commentator did well, particularly with EnmoreKittten's name, but also had a couple of nice one liners, I particularly liked the one about it being time to SUNY Poly to unbolt the kitchen sink.

Fouls: SUNY Poly 12 Amherst 13 (still looking for a naming sponsor for this section)

Quote from: Kuiper on November 10, 2023, 03:58:56 PM

Also, a hat tip to Messiah with only 8 yellow cards all season.  Even for a team that plays possession-based soccer and doesn't necessarily need to press the heck out of its opponents or dive in on desperation tackles, it's hard to have single digit yellow cards.  While it's probably at least in part attributable to being (far) ahead in many of its matches, I wonder if there is a "halo effect" at work here.  After all, if the fine gents at Amherst can get some yellows on bad reputation alone (as has been suggested), couldn't Messiah be avoiding a few based on good reputation?

I appreciate the hat tip, Kuiper, but (to be fully honest) the Falcons had a bad year in that particular category. You have to go back to 2017 (their last title) to get another figure that high. The norm in Grantham is about 5 YCs/season. The number for RCs is even more revealing. The last time the Falcons had a RC, the coach was Layton Shoemaker (and believe me, he wasn't happy with his team when that happened) and none of the current Falcons had yet been born.

This is business as usual in Grantham. They just don't play dirty. Never. That's how it should be done everywhere else, IMO, including New Jersey and New England where they need to hear that message (to be frank). Maybe that halo isn't just an effect. Ask their opponents. :D

Thanks again for calling them out, in a good way.  :D

Just in case folks don't read regional threads, the Hopkins - Babson match was an epic 4-3 OT finish, with winner coming with 90 seconds left on the clock.

Hop was down 2-0 and scored two late to push things to OT, then went down 3-2 in OT... Stormed back in the second session to get the W.

Unreal. Feel for Babson, as that was some highway robbery at the end. (To be fair, the game was pretty even, so it's not like Hop didn't "deserve" to win.)

Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 11, 2023, 04:37:08 PM
Just in case folks don't read regional threads, the Hopkins - Babson match was an epic 4-3 OT finish, with winner coming with 90 seconds left on the clock.

Hop was down 2-0 and scored two late to push things to OT, then went down 3-2 in OT... Stormed back in the second session to get the W.

Unreal. Feel for Babson, as that was some highway robbery at the end. (To be fair, the game was pretty even, so it's not like Hop didn't "deserve" to win.)

Deserve or not deserve not even a factor. JHU played lights out the last 10 min in regular time and then in the 2nd OT. 

As a neutral, thoroughly enjoyed JHU vs Babson.  Babson was very good and Hopkins was so resilient especially after being frustrated by at least a handful of near misses and facing 2-0 and then 3-2 deficits.

FYI, for those checking scores on the NCAA site the Lynchburg game is wrong.  Ohio Northern is up 1-0 in 2nd half.

Pac Lu and Carleton going to OT2.

And Colorado Coll has drawn level after trailing Oglethorpe 2-0.  Deep into 2nd half.

I don't get why St Olaf doesn't use the camera setting for replays for the actual game....so much better.  Hopefully PKs will have the better view.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 11, 2023, 05:29:07 PM
I don't get why St Olaf doesn't use the camera setting for replays for the actual game....so much better.  Hopefully PKs will have the better view.

Carleton's Linder stops the first two.  Really impressive.  Carleton wins in PKs

Very even game.  Pac Lu had chances to score, as did Carleton.

Lynchburg scores with 2:40 left to tie.  Game going to extra time.

And tough spot for the PLU freshman taking that second PK.

Wild day of soccer...

Colorado College goes from down 2-0 to up 3-2 with three minutes to go.  Huge comeback by CC/collapse by Oglethorpe

Congrats to Johns Hopkins on a well earned victory. 

Quote from: Kuiper on November 11, 2023, 05:38:31 PM
Colorado College goes from down 2-0 to up 3-2 with three minutes to go.  Huge comeback by CC/collapse by Oglethorpe

Colorado College wins 3-2.  Broad with a massive top hand save in the final minute or so to seal the victory.

Quote from: Kuiper on November 11, 2023, 05:43:05 PM

Quote from: Kuiper on November 11, 2023, 05:38:31 PM
Colorado College goes from down 2-0 to up 3-2 with three minutes to go.  Huge comeback by CC/collapse by Oglethorpe

Colorado College wins 3-2.  Broad with a massive top hand save in the final minute or so to seal the victory.

Super impressive for CC to travel that far and be down 2-0 to a very solid team, and then come back and win in regulation.  I won't be surprised if CC beats Emory.

Heading to PKs in Lynchburg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWPgM-_U1SM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWPgM-_U1SM)

Did anyone watch the Catholic/Oneonta game?  2-1 with all three  goals scored within a 60 second span. Curious what happened.

Catholic left Oneonta's striker completely unmarked on a cross and then gave up too much space in the middle of the final third for the 2nd.  Catholic's goal was almost identical to Oneonta's first goal.

ONU Polar Bears win in PKs over Lynchburg. Messiah tomorrow.

F&M v Conn OT

Trinity - UTD to PKs

PKs will decide it in Lancaster. Sylvester has been huge in this scenario many times for the Camels.

Franklin & Marshall 1 Connecticut College 1 Camels Advance

This was a game where the teams looked pretty evenly matched to me.  I assessed the ECPCC (EnmoreCat Proper Chance Count), 5-4 in favour of Conn for the 90 minutes, but it is of course, goals that count and after normal time it was 1-1.  I liked the commentator's choice of phrasing in the final minute when things got a little tasty and, "exchange of pleasantries" was definitely a good way to describe what was taking place.

In extra time (I find it hard to call it "OT" as that also stands for "Operating Thetan") the ECPCC had it as 2-1 to F&M and I was impressed with the defensive scrambling from both sides at a stage of the game where the bodies must feel heavy.  Complete respect to everyone who took a penalty, they are ultra stressful situations.  Ultimately, this is what it took to separate two teams that as I mentioned at the outset, were evenly matched.   

Foul Count: F&M 13  Conn 6 (so it's not just a NESCAC thing? – this is an Australian humour attempt – apologies if it failed)

Quote from: Kuiper on November 11, 2023, 08:32:36 PM
Trinity - UTD to PKs

Trinity win on PKs (9-8). 

Controversially, UTD's GK took the 9th penalty kick and and it was the only save for Trinity's GK.  That was all they needed as Chen Adjei hit the winner.  The odd thing is that Adjei, the SCAC Offensive Player of the Year, was scheduled to go 10th.  He hit a panenka, too to win it.

Quote from: EnmoreCat on November 11, 2023, 08:50:01 PM

Foul Count: F&M 13  Conn 6 (so it's not just a NESCAC thing? – this is an Australian humour attempt – apologies if it failed)

F&M is the Amherst of the Centennial so the foul discrepancy makes sense

Good game by Conn. Made all their PKS and their keeper saved one. Had a nice goal after F&Ms keeper couldn't cover it up. F&M couldn't capitalize on their good chances.  It is what it is.

Best of luck to Conn.

Why does the ncaa bracket show F&M advancing then?

Quote from: Another Mom on November 11, 2023, 09:10:22 PM
Why does the ncaa bracket show F&M advancing then?

anti-nescac bias

Fantastic game between F&M and Conn.  I thought F&M did enough to win and did not look inferior to Conn in the least.  Tough to go down 1-0 off a bad giveaway.  Credit to Conn for remaining steady and handling the pressure of having to go second in PKs and the Camels matched F&M kick after kick.  The Kaliebe kid is a heckuva player.  Conn escapes Lancaster after an OT game and a PKs game...and are very much alive and a threat going forward.

Quote from: dacac on November 11, 2023, 09:11:19 PM

Quote from: Another Mom on November 11, 2023, 09:10:22 PM
Why does the ncaa bracket show F&M advancing then?

anti-nescac bias

anti-d3 soccer bias. I had (like PN) also noticed that other major error, showing Lynchburg leading ONU 1-0 when it was precisely the other way around. Something tells me, if this were Georgia vs Alabama in football rather than futbol, that type of error would never stand.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 11, 2023, 09:14:38 PM
Fantastic game between F&M and Conn.  I thought F&M did enough to win and did not look inferior to Conn in the least.  Tough to go down 1-0 off a bad giveaway.  Credit to Conn for remaining steady and handling the pressure of having to go second in PKs and the Camels matched F&M kick after kick.  The Kaliebe kid is a heckuva player.  Conn escapes Lancaster after an OT game and a PKs game...and are very much alive and a threat going forward.

Kudos to F&M for doing their best to make the world safer for democracy.* Too bad they fell short. That giveaway was huge, but Conn was not the better team--only the winners in PKs.

* = elimating NESCACs   :o

Gotta say Falconer, if I was a fish, you would have had me in your boat a few times already today  :) 

For those who weren't following on the Go WEST thread:

FINAL:  Occidental 2 - St. Thomas 1

Conn College transfer Oury Diane scores the game winner with 1:18 left in the game on a broken play.  Diane took the ball and passed it to a teammate who fed a runner in the box.  A UST defender appeared to foul the Oxy player, but no call was given. While some players on both sides appeared to look to the ref, Diane collected the ball and shot it in the net for the game winner.

This was a deserved win, although Oxy survived some nervy play from its GK. Ultimately, Vicente Navarro was able to slow down Daniel Castro and Oxy's other defenders hounded Tay Aleman, leaving UST with few offensive options. 

It was also interesting to see the Oxy Ultras travel to this game, complete with their drum and vuvuzelas, which were a constant throughout the match despite the rain. 

Anyone know what is going on with the UWEC game? UW Platteville's (the host's) website won't load.

UWEC won...pretty bad scuffle at the end..

The most startling aspect of the 1st round is probably that there was nothing startling.  No major surprises.  UWEC beating North Central was maybe a mild surprise...and maybe UST losing to Occidental?  Otherwise, a handful of 50/50 games that could have gone either way, but no dramatic upsets.

The best news is that there is not a single unattractive match for Sunday.  Too bad so many are clustered at 1:00.

Conn Coll and Calvin already have two spots in the Sweet 16.

Middlebury 3 Western New England 0

WNE came out with purpose and energy.  They did not sit back and actively took it to the Panthers early on.  Grady had to make a  big time save with 7:33 gone to keep it level.  Panthers got on the board in the 18th minute when Grady played long out of the back for Kyle Nilsson, who flicked it on to Gavin Randolph, who found Jordan Saint-Louis in space.  Saint Louis took it into the attacking right side of the penalty area before cutting it back onto his left foot and curling on into the far post top corner.  Each team had opportunities throughout the remainder of the half, each hitting the post once.  Halftime score was 1-0.  Panthers made it 2-0 two and half minutes into the second half when Harper Nicholl split the defense with a perfectly weighted pass and Saint Louis made no mistake.  Tyler Payne made it 3-0 when he toe-poked it under the keeper to finish off a great passing sequence where Nilsson, Hank Nelson, Colin Duggan, and Saint Louis were all involved.  Not the best game the Panthers have played, but they weathered the early rough patch and handled their business.  Hopkins today should be a great match up.

Because we care more than the NCAA does, here are Sunday's Games (all times ET).

Championships Website (https://gotuftsjumbos.com/feature/2023NCAAMSOCCEROPENINGROUNDS)
NCAA Bracket (https://www.ncaa.com/brackets/soccer-men/d3/2023)
NCAA Tournament Program (https://www.ncaa.com/contentision-iii-men%E2%80%99s-and-women%E2%80%99s-soccer-championships-guide)

1 pm

John Carroll @ Mary Washington       Video (https://umweagles.com/links/x66sgq)    Stats (https://umweagles.com/sports/msoc/2023-24/boxscores/20231112_iypq.xml)
Washington College @ Kenyon       Video (https://www.northcoastnetwork.com/kenyon/?B=744399)     Stats (https://athletics.kenyon.edu/sidearmstats/msoc/summary)
Amherst v. Stevens (@WPI)       Video (https://newmacsportsnetwork.com/wpi/?B=744535)     Stats (https://athletics.wpi.edu/sidearmstats/msoc/summary)
Case Western Reserve @ Cortland       Video (https://www.cortlandreddragons.com/sports/2019/8/15/BlueFramePage.aspx)     Stats (https://www.cortlandreddragons.com/sidearmstats/msoc/summary)
Johns Hopkins @ Middlebury       Video (https://www.nsnsports.net/colleges/middlebury/)     Stats (https://athletics.middlebury.edu/sidearmstats/msoc/summary)
Rochester @ Tufts       Video (http://tuftsjumbocast.com/)     Stats (https://gotuftsjumbos.com/sidearmstats/msoc/summary)
SUNY Oneonta @ Washington and Lee       Video (https://generalssports.com/sports/2019/10/14/washington-and-lee-all-access.aspx)     Stats (https://generalssports.com/sidearmstats/msoc/summary)

2 pm

Ohio Wesleyan @ U Chicago       Video (https://athletics.uchicago.edu/sports/2023/7/21/m-soccer-live-video.aspx)     Stats (https://athletics.uchicago.edu/sidearmstats/msoc/summary)
Carleton @ St. Olaf       Video (https://www.stolaf.edu/multimedia/play/?e=4485)     Stats (https://athletics.stolaf.edu/sidearmstats/msoc/summary)

3 pm

Messiah v. Ohio Northern (@Lynchburg)       Video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xM9XnBBwb84)     Stats (https://lynchburgsports.com/sidearmstats/msoc/summary)
Colorado College @ Emory       Video (https://www.emoryathletics.com/sports/msoc/live)     Stats (https://www.emoryathletics.com/sports/msoc/2023-24/boxscores/20231112_c7dh.xml)

7pm

Christopher Newport @ Montclair St.       Video (https://youtube.com/live/S82fJNDaBts)     Stats (http://montclairathletics.com/sidearmstats/msoc)

8 pm

Occidental @ Trinity (TX)       Video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPmdlzDsFVQ)     Stats (https://stats.statbroadcast.com/broadcast/?id=496174)
Wis.-Eau Claire @ Wis.-Platteville       Video (https://www.wiacnetwork.com/uwplatteville/?B=744386)     Stats (https://letsgopioneers.com/sports/msoc/2023-24/boxscores/20231112_ulv4.xml)



**  Please don't throw shade if the links don't work.  I'm no pro at this.  And... Go Generals!

Yes, Go Generals!  Having watched most of the Oneonta game, I believe W&L is the stronger team. However, if the Generals came limping into the tournament due to injuries,  they are really hobbling now.

Quote from: Another Mom on November 12, 2023, 10:09:20 AM
Yes, Go Generals!  Having watched most of the Oneonta game, I believe W&L is the stronger team. However, if the Generals came limping into the tournament due to injuries,  they are really hobbling now.

How is your son?  Can he go today? 

Quote from: FBALLISLIFE on November 12, 2023, 10:10:53 AM

Quote from: Another Mom on November 12, 2023, 10:09:20 AM
Yes, Go Generals!  Having watched most of the Oneonta game, I believe W&L is the stronger team. However, if the Generals came limping into the tournament due to injuries,  they are really hobbling now.

How is your son?  Can he go today?

PM sent

Thank you Football is Life!!

Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 12, 2023, 10:53:04 AM
Thank you Football is Life!!

Definitely, THANK YOU!

Yes many thanks.  The multiple step routine of pulling up a game gets a little old.  And I agree a simple link on NCAA.org would help.

Didn't know where Tufts-Rochester was happening. Thankfully, it's not the one that's Paywall U.

Quote from: FBALLISLIFE on November 12, 2023, 10:10:53 AM

Quote from: Another Mom on November 12, 2023, 10:09:20 AM
Yes, Go Generals!  Having watched most of the Oneonta game, I believe W&L is the stronger team. However, if the Generals came limping into the tournament due to injuries,  they are really hobbling now.

How is your son?  Can he go today?

Love the huge hug of respect from Singleton for him after the game.  Gutsy performance.

Big win by Wash College in pks. Tough way to decide a game, but their keepers saved the one pk and on to the sweet 16!

FINAL: Chicago 2 - Ohio Wesleyan 1

Chicago scores a last minute goal on a great Robbie Pino cross that was deflected in the goal because of a strong Yetishefsky near post run.  Chicago advances to the Sweet 16.

Possible upset alert. Messiah v. ONU. 1-0 with 30 min left.

Wow.  Losing hurts just as much no matter how much practice you get at it.  Unfortunately I was correct that Kenyon would not survive the weekend and it's too bad for them as I think they would have had a decent chance against Mary Wash.

Well played game by Wash Coll....very solid all around, play within themselves and to their strengths, and obviously very well coached.  Played 10 subs which is impressive.  Comber is very good and a steadying influence.  I thought Kenyon should have kept him from providing so much service out of the back.  Wash Coll also looked comfortable going to PKs as for the last five minutes of the 2nd OT they looked to be in no hurry.  Pinto made a good save and Pedeschri never got close to a save...which sucked for him as he had his best game of the season  otherwise.  Wash Coll also did a nice job limiting Duratovic and Dujakovich, especially the latter as Duratovic did have several chances he will want back...and Martens who missed on his PK appeared to have a clear shot from about eight yards out to win it in the last seconds of overtime.  Very fair result that could have gone either way, but I'm sure Kenyon is extremely disappointed.  Gotta win those games before PKs especially at home.

Kenyon's ending fits with their season.  Good, not great, first year for Wall, rebounding from a tough start against two NCAA teams to land at 16-4-1...and a second round exit in PKs.  They lost a ton of talent but still managed to go unblemished in the NCAC regular season.  Also had more than their fair share of injuries.  Most of the key players return so should be better next year....but next year feels like 10 years away on the day you get knocked out.

Good luck to Wash Coll.  I think they will play well against Mary Wash but the Eagles will likely have a little too much offensive firepower for the Shoreman to advance further.

Messiah get beat by Ohio Northern 1-0. 43 game unbeaten streak is snapped.

Congratulations to ONU, who deserved the victory.

I feel especially for Matt Macdonald, who had to watch it happen from the sidelines owing to an unknown injury that wasn't apparent yesterday. A great group of SRs and 5YRs finish their careers in Grantham on a down note, but I know they will stick together for the rest of their lives--they are all winners in more important ways than on the field.

Next year will probably be a rare rebuilding year (as vs reloading) in Grantham. See you all then.

Colorado College advances on pks.

Quote from: Another Mom on November 12, 2023, 05:40:38 PM
Colorado College advances on pks.

This is what I posted on the Go WEST thread about this result

QuoteRegion X is now guaranteed to have two teams in the Sweet 16 of this year's tournament, with the second team to be determined by the Occidental @ Trinity game in a couple of hours.

Big moment for Colorado College.  I believe this is the first time it has made the Sweet 16 since 1993

No Tufts vs Messiah yet again.

And to make matters worse for the non-NESCAC folks, Tufts no doubt is gonna host!

Huh. Scuttlebut from people who know more than me is that W&L has a good chance of hosting.

Quote from: Another Mom on November 12, 2023, 05:46:10 PM
Huh. Scuttlebut from people who know more than me is that W&L has a good chance of hosting.

Hope so...I'll be surprised.

Quote from: Another Mom on November 12, 2023, 05:46:10 PM
Huh. Scuttlebut from people who know more than me is that W&L has a good chance of hosting.

That would be kind of brutal for Colorado College to fly back to Colorado Springs and then have to fly back across the country to the southeast to play at Lexington.  I'm sure they would prefer Ohio Northern if that was possible.  I guess W& L is better than Tufts, though.

One saving grace is that under the school's unique one-class-a-time block system with 4, four-week blocks, Block 3 ends on Nov. 15 (this Wednesday) and then they have a Fall Break until Nov. 27, when Block 4 begins.  So, at least they wouldn't miss any classes traveling on Wednesday night or Thursday for a Friday game. 

Quote from: Kuiper on November 12, 2023, 06:00:19 PM

Quote from: Another Mom on November 12, 2023, 05:46:10 PM
Huh. Scuttlebut from people who know more than me is that W&L has a good chance of hosting.

That would be kind of brutal for Colorado College to fly back to Colorado Springs and then have to fly back across the country to the southeast to play at Lexington.  I'm sure they would prefer Ohio Northern if that was possible.  I guess W& L is better than Tufts, though.

One saving grace is that under the school's unique one-class-a-time block system with 4, four-week blocks, Block 3 ends on Nov. 15 (this Wednesday) and then they have a Fall Break until Nov. 27, when Block 4 begins.  So, at least they wouldn't miss any classes traveling on Wednesday night or Thursday for a Friday game.

It's an awkward bracket travel-wise. Tufts and W&L are flight distance, 629 miles. Colorado College is flight distance from all. That leaves Ohio Northern, 419 miles from W&L, but flight distance to Tufts. So if you choose Tufts, it's 3 flights. If you chose Ohio Northern or W&L, it's 2 flights. Neither ONU or W&L has a women's team still in the tournament. By the bracket, I'd say W&L is a higher seed than Ohio Northern, so it could very well be W&L just to cut out 1 flight.

Quote from: Kuiper on November 12, 2023, 06:00:19 PM

Quote from: Another Mom on November 12, 2023, 05:46:10 PM
Huh. Scuttlebut from people who know more than me is that W&L has a good chance of hosting.

That would be kind of brutal for Colorado College to fly back to Colorado Springs and then have to fly back across the country to the southeast to play at Lexington.  I'm sure they would prefer Ohio Northern if that was possible.  I guess W& L is better than Tufts, though.

One saving grace is that under the school's unique one-class-a-time block system with 4, four-week blocks, Block 3 ends on Nov. 15 (this Wednesday) and then they have a Fall Break until Nov. 27, when Block 4 begins.  So, at least they wouldn't miss any classes traveling on Wednesday night or Thursday for a Friday game.

I think W&L would definitely get the nod over Tufts because of distance. If in Medford, that'd be flights for all three schools (each more than 500+ miles away). Ohio Northern can drive to W&L (just under the 500-mile cutoff).

And if the Jumbos do end up in Lex, I'm going to have to recommend Frank's Pizza to my friend Kyle Dezotell. (Assuming Frank's is still good. Can you confirm @AnotherMom?)

Not that this has anything to do with how they decide but Logan would be the easiest and likely non-stop flights.  Harsh for ONU to drive to W&L even if it is under the 500 mile limit.  I assume you fly in to DC or Richmond to get to W&L.  Tufts won't care at all...but definitely would be an advantage for the Jumbos.  I can'gt imagine that Tufts isn't the highest seeded remaining team.

Roanoke is 40 minutes from Lexington. Not easy to get to commercial direct, but plenty of connections.  I assume these are mostly charters anyway.

Totally agree Tufts is highest seed, but D3 being mindful of flights in choosing pods is a longstanding history.

By the way, Colorado College v. Ohio Northern Sweet Sixteen game will be one of the most unlikely rematch games in the NCAA tournament this year.  The two teams played each other in Ada, Ohio on Sept. 9th and tied 1-1.  That was the first time the two schools had ever played each other as far as I can tell and now they will play each other twice in the same season.

Quote from: Kuiper on November 12, 2023, 06:27:43 PM
By the way, Colorado College v. Ohio Northern Sweet Sixteen game will be one of the most unlikely rematch games in the NCAA tournament this year.  The two teams played each other in Ada, Ohio on Sept. 9th and tied 1-1.  That was the first time the two schools had ever played each other as far as I can tell and now they will play each other twice in the same season.

That's wild.  Speaking of rematches I'm pretty sure ONU and Messiah had not played since the national final in 2012 when Messiah won 5-1.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 12, 2023, 06:19:40 PM
Not that this has anything to do with how they decide but Logan would be the easiest and likely non-stop flights.  Harsh for ONU to drive to W&L even if it is under the 500 mile limit.  I assume you fly in to DC or Richmond to get to W&L.  Tufts won't care at all...but definitely would be an advantage for the Jumbos.  I can'gt imagine that Tufts isn't the highest seeded remaining team.

It's been my experience that it's exceedingly rare for the NCAA to opt to fly a team, when driving is an alternative.

A caveat is that the closest airport to Lex is Roanoke, and those flights are expensive. (Lex is my hometown, and the costs of flying to Roanoke from anywhere are exorbitant.) And I don't see the NCAA flying a team to Washington or Charlotte (3.5 hrs and 4 hrs away respectively) and then busing them for several hours. (Richmond—2 hours and change from Lex is just as expensive as Roanoke.)

So, number crunchers in Indianapolis may discover it's less expensive or an equal expense to fly three teams to Logan, as opposed to two to Roanoke, in which case, games may be in Medford. But, believe me, the NCAA is notorious for putting teams on a bus for 400+ miles, as long as it doesn't hit 500, to save them the costs of a flight.
   

Quote from: Another Mom on November 12, 2023, 05:46:10 PM
Huh. Scuttlebut from people who know more than me is that W&L has a good chance of hosting.

If that's the case, I sure hope W&L can get it's field into shape. It looked like it was falling apart especially in front the goal by the score board.

Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 12, 2023, 06:42:41 PM

Quote from: Another Mom on November 12, 2023, 05:46:10 PM
Huh. Scuttlebut from people who know more than me is that W&L has a good chance of hosting.

If that's the case, I sure hope W&L can get it's field into shape. It looked like it was falling apart especially in front the goal by the score board.

Natural grass, late in the season, after the growing period ends. Hard to do. Watt Field hosts both men's and women's teams. It's a big ask this time of year. Not sure what can be done once it goes dormant.

Probably go old school and just put down sand in front of the goal.

Also why can't W&L do what Kenyon or McDaniel?  Not the first year it's been in this shape.

I've seen plenty of grass fields in fine shape for the NCAA tournament, in worse weather areas.  Field conditions are taken into account for hosting duties and that should also apply here. 

Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 12, 2023, 07:02:32 PM
Probably go old school and just put down sand in front of the goal.

Also why can't W&L do what Kenyon or McDaniel?  Not the first year it's been in this shape.

Not sure. It's not a lack of money. Maybe a different type of grass that doesn't hold up as well?

No idea but it is a problem if W&L wants to continue being a host late in the year.

Montclair vs. CNU tied 0-0 at half.  I'd say CNU with the slight edge in overall play.

Quote from: Chargers96 on November 12, 2023, 07:54:39 PM
Montclair vs. CNU tied 0-0 at half.  I'd say CNU with the slight edge in overall play.

I would say more than a slight edge.

SC.

And there's Lukovic with a goal right on cue. 1-0 MSU early in the 2nd half

Trinity GK takes down the Oxy attacker in a 1 v. 1 just outside the box on a denial of a goal scoring opportunity and gets a red 15 minutes in.

Trinity down to 10 men.

Hosting for next round will be interesting. I do think logistically having three teams fly into Logan will probably be easier and possibly more affordable then the multi leg journeys and drive to W&L. That being said when Tufts played in the final 4 in Roanoke they had to connect through NYC.  Obviously Messiah going down presents a theoretically easier road to the final four, but I was actually looking forward to making the trip down to Messiah this weekend. Washington and Lee is gonna be out of the question for a drive.

Quote from: Kuiper on November 12, 2023, 08:22:26 PM
Trinity GK takes down the Oxy attacker in a 1 v. 1 just outside the box on a denial of a goal scoring opportunity and gets a red 15 minutes in.

Trinity down to 10 men.

So obvious, the Keeper didn't even argue... and the ensuing free kick hits the cross bar.

SC.

Quote from: Kuiper on November 12, 2023, 08:22:26 PM
Trinity GK takes down the Oxy attacker in a 1 v. 1 just outside the box on a denial of a goal scoring opportunity and gets a red 15 minutes in.

Trinity down to 10 men.

HALF:  Occidental 2 - Trinity 0

Andrew Notter has a brace for Oxy, which is just blitzing Trinity in the rain with a man advantage.

MSU - CNU headed to OT tied 1-1

Quote from: Chargers96 on November 12, 2023, 09:01:10 PM
MSU - CNU headed to OT tied 1-1

Quite a fun game.  Back and forth and some good soccer being played.

And the announcers are enthusiastic.....

SC.

Quote from: Kuiper on November 12, 2023, 08:56:47 PM

Quote from: Kuiper on November 12, 2023, 08:22:26 PM
Trinity GK takes down the Oxy attacker in a 1 v. 1 just outside the box on a denial of a goal scoring opportunity and gets a red 15 minutes in.

Trinity down to 10 men.

HALF:  Occidental 2 - Trinity 0

Andrew Notter has a brace for Oxy, which is just blitzing Trinity in the rain with a man advantage.

UPDATE:  Occidental 3 - Trinity 0

Ox scores a third 2 minutes into the second half.

Quote from: Kuiper on November 12, 2023, 09:17:43 PM

Quote from: Kuiper on November 12, 2023, 08:56:47 PM

Quote from: Kuiper on November 12, 2023, 08:22:26 PM
Trinity GK takes down the Oxy attacker in a 1 v. 1 just outside the box on a denial of a goal scoring opportunity and gets a red 15 minutes in.

Trinity down to 10 men.

HALF:  Occidental 2 - Trinity 0

Andrew Notter has a brace for Oxy, which is just blitzing Trinity in the rain with a man advantage.

UPDATE:  Occidental 3 - Trinity 0

Ox scores a third 2 minutes into the second half.

Don't want to call this one too early.  Trinity pulls one back and it's 3-1

Quote from: Kuiper on November 12, 2023, 09:17:43 PM

Quote from: Kuiper on November 12, 2023, 08:56:47 PM

Quote from: Kuiper on November 12, 2023, 08:22:26 PM
Trinity GK takes down the Oxy attacker in a 1 v. 1 just outside the box on a denial of a goal scoring opportunity and gets a red 15 minutes in.

Trinity down to 10 men.

HALF:  Occidental 2 - Trinity 0

Andrew Notter has a brace for Oxy, which is just blitzing Trinity in the rain with a man advantage.

UPDATE:  Occidental 3 - Trinity 0

Ox scores a third 2 minutes into the second half.

Just ugly since the red.

SC.

Hat trick by Amir Lukovich in Montclair's 3-1 win over Christopher Newport.

Montclair v Christopher Newport Game Notes. (https://www.patreon.com/posts/game-notes-v-92773795?utm_medium=clipboard_copy&utm_source=copyLink&utm_campaign=postshare_creator&utm_content=join_link)

Wonder if Lukovic enters the transfer portal after this season.  Didn't look like he had a touch on the second goal but he certainly influenced.

Quote from: Freddyfud on November 12, 2023, 09:35:35 PM
Wonder if Lukovic enters the transfer portal after this season.  Didn't look like he had a touch on the second goal but he certainly influenced.

Yeah, the second one was iffy.  But the third goal was all class.

Whether he tries to go D1 or not, who knows.  He has the talent.

SC.

Wasn't super impressed with Montclair.  They don't look like #5 in the nation.  CNU played them even for sure, but Lukovic is a difference maker.

Quote from: Kuiper on November 12, 2023, 09:27:29 PM

Quote from: Kuiper on November 12, 2023, 09:17:43 PM

Quote from: Kuiper on November 12, 2023, 08:56:47 PM

Quote from: Kuiper on November 12, 2023, 08:22:26 PM
Trinity GK takes down the Oxy attacker in a 1 v. 1 just outside the box on a denial of a goal scoring opportunity and gets a red 15 minutes in.

Trinity down to 10 men.

HALF:  Occidental 2 - Trinity 0

Andrew Notter has a brace for Oxy, which is just blitzing Trinity in the rain with a man advantage.

UPDATE:  Occidental 3 - Trinity 0

Ox scores a third 2 minutes into the second half.

Don't want to call this one too early.  Trinity pulls one back and it's 3-1

FINAL:  Occidental 4 - Trinity 1

Trinity never recovered from losing its GK and going down a man, but in truth Oxy was pressing Trinity pretty hard before that and Trinity was on its heels.

Second year in a row that a Region X team qualifies for the Round of 16 in their first ever trip to the NCAA tournament.

Stevens 0 Amherst 1

Having spent a lot of my Sunday watching other national tournament matches, it was hard not to admire the quality of all the teams that did make the final cut.  Equally, having watched a number of teams that rankings suggest are very good teams, find the going less than easy, I was happy to own up to some trepidation ahead of this game.  Whilst Massey had The Ducks outside of the top 50, I could see in their regular season a win against Babson, a lead against F&M for a fair period of that game and also, success in the MAC Freedom Championship.  In addition, an absolutely stellar season last year when they only lost deep in Operating Thetan time to eventual winners Chicago, was more than enough for me to know this game would be tough. 

I possibly would have been the wrong person to give the Mammoths team talk on that basis, other than to exhort the group of young men wearing white shirts, to strive for better things and perhaps starting to work through a Readers Digest version of my much coveted thirty two bullet points.

Stevens started the better of the two teams, which tended to validate my sense of wariness.  The encouraging thing was that the game suddenly changed.  I am sure the respective coaching staffs probably could identify a reason or two, sadly I was on my way to work and also trying to think about my day ahead and not scare anyone on the bus whilst gasping at near misses.  It did feel like Amherst finished the half the stronger and I was subsequently advised that one of the white shirts did hit the post right on half time.

The commentator continued to observe into the second half that whilst Amherst had dominated play, as well as shots on goal, that that wasn't the statistic that mattered most and that sat comfortably with my view of potential catastrophe should there be a moment for The Ducks which changes the game similarly to what had happened to the Mammoths a couple of times during the regular season.  Fortunately, it didn't, but as the referee blew the whistle for full time, I was already wishing my life away, thinking about who the Amherst penalty takers would be and making my very amateurish psychological assessments of their likely success.  I should have paid a bit more attention to the actual game in extra time, as the Mammoths actually looked in control, albeit, without scoring.  Half way through the first half of Operating Thetan time, after a period of intense Amherst pressure, one of the seniors scored with a well hit drive from somewhere just inside the box it looked like.  I am not a student of Chinese history and along with being a poor speller, I think there is sufficient scope to describe that moment as, "The Sung Dynasty". 

The efficiency I have previously noted about Amherst's play after a couple of late dramas, was revealed yet again and the Mammoths were actually pushing down the other end, keen to make it two.  I was hugely inconsistent in my response to this, as part of me thought it was best to play a low block and absorb Ducks pressure, but equally, trying to win, even with a less resourced effort, is also a pretty good way to do things.  Of course, Stevens found it hard to get into the Amherst area, but right at the end of Operating Thetan time, they did get a chance which fortunately for purple hearts, was put wide.  I find it interesting that Amherst has now won five games 1-0, speaking to their efficiency. 

I saw the Stevens team go in at full time looking quietly confident, knowing they had absorbed a lot of Amherst pressure, having been, as the commentator noted, "bent, but not broken" and they would have surely felt a chance would come their way.  I can only have admiration for the way they hung in there.  Also, I don't know if there are any Ducks fans in here, but I was specifically told that their players and supporters alike were most gracious after the game and wished the Amherst team all the best for whatever comes next.  That gets what is known in some social media circles, as The EnmoreCat Tick of Approval and I can only hope I am that gracious in similar circumstances.

Making the Sweet Sixteen is a definite achievement, but like for many of the programmes Amherst will be accompanied by at this stage, the sights are set a lot higher.  Having watched Occidental, I am left in no doubt that it will be another epic encounter and of course, aside from the fact that all players need some downtime, can't really wait for it.

Foul Count: Stevens 13 Amherst 15 (there have been some preliminary sponsorship discussions with a poultry company – Australian humour at its finest)

Congratulations to the final 16.  Best of luck next weekend!

Looks like Tufts, Amherst, Mary Washington, and the University of Chicago are hosting this next round.

Shoutout this morning to the Blue Streaks of John Carroll, who left it all on the field yesterday in a highly contested match at a very hostile Battleground. UMW's attacking side is easily one of the most dangerous I have witnessed over the past few years and they are going to continue to be a handful moving forward. Fully deserving of their #2 (now #1?) ranking. Good luck, Eagles.

back to Bello!

Is Calvin not hosting because of travel rules?  Weren't they the #1 team in the region?

Quote from: calvin_grad on November 13, 2023, 08:37:29 AM
Is Calvin not hosting because of travel rules?  Weren't they the #1 team in the region?

Imo either Calvin or St Olaf should be hosting.

If ONU website is correct looks like ONU and Colorado Coll are playing the early game at Tufts, which suggests that CC or ONU is the top remaining seed there.

Quote from: calvin_grad on November 13, 2023, 08:37:29 AM
Is Calvin not hosting because of travel rules?  Weren't they the #1 team in the region?

My guess would be travel rules—having Chicago host probably saves flying a team to Grand Rapids.

Despite Messiah being Messiah and also #1 for the entire season the Falcons weren't talked about a lot on the site.  And now they've failed to make the second weekend for the second year in a row despite only having one loss in two full seasons. 

Can anyone provide more color on exactly how Ohio Northern pulled off the upset?  Massive, massive win for the ONU program and the Polar Bears are riding some momentum winning the OAC tourney and still being alive after facing host Lynchburg and then knocking off the gold standard.  Of course Colorado Coll is riding some major momentum of their own.

All -

So this is premature, and a work in progress... so be gentle.  I've added all the games for the upcoming weekend, both men's and women's, and most, although not all, have the appropriate links to watch or track stats... if available.  Tired of hunting for times and links, etc..

Next year, my goal is to have this automated, but right now, it's all manual. 

Go here if you want to view the games - https://d3soccer.fans/home/game-calendar/ (https://d3soccer.fans/home/game-calendar/)

SC.

Nice idea!

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 13, 2023, 10:31:09 AM

Quote from: calvin_grad on November 13, 2023, 08:37:29 AM
Is Calvin not hosting because of travel rules?  Weren't they the #1 team in the region?

Imo either Calvin or St Olaf should be hosting.

If ONU website is correct looks like ONU and Colorado Coll are playing the early game at Tufts, which suggests that CC or ONU is the top remaining seed there.

Tufts v WL is the early game 11 am.

Quote from: Dark Knight on November 13, 2023, 10:42:35 AM

Quote from: calvin_grad on November 13, 2023, 08:37:29 AM
Is Calvin not hosting because of travel rules?  Weren't they the #1 team in the region?

My guess would be travel rules—having Chicago host probably saves flying a team to Grand Rapids.

Yep...St Olaf is 585 miles from Calvin, so if either one hosts, one team has to fly. Chicago is between them.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 13, 2023, 10:31:09 AM

Quote from: calvin_grad on November 13, 2023, 08:37:29 AM
Is Calvin not hosting because of travel rules?  Weren't they the #1 team in the region?

Imo either Calvin or St Olaf should be hosting.

If ONU website is correct looks like ONU and Colorado Coll are playing the early game at Tufts, which suggests that CC or ONU is the top remaining seed there.

The order of the games is actually picked by the host team. I remember when we first got to host coach Shapiro going back and forth on whether the extra two hours of rest was worth switching up the routine of playing at your normal time. It seems like most programs lean toward taking the rest.

How they did in the tournament first round (or, Who's hot)

One measure of how well teams have played so far in the tournament is how much they won by and how difficult was their competition -- average margin of victory + average strength of schedule.

I computed that for the 16 sweet-sixteen teams, using Massey's estimate of the power for each opponent. Two teams stood out as having a particularly good first round (which isn't that far from saying "scored lots of goals"). And two teams -- not so much.

Here is what I came up with:

	Margin of Victory --	Strength of Schedule --	Power
St Olaf	3.5	1.5	5.0
Calvin	4.0	0.7	4.7
Occidental	2.0	2.0	4.0
Eau Claire	1.5	2.1	3.6
Middlebury	2.0	1.1	3.1
Wash & Lee	1.5	1.5	3.0
Tufts	2.0	0.9	2.9
Washington Col	1.0	1.8	2.8
Ohio Northern	0.5	2.3	2.8
Montclair St	2.0	0.8	2.8
Chicago	1.5	1.2	2.7
Connecticut Col	1.0	1.7	2.7
Mary Washington	1.5	0.9	2.4
Colorado Col	0.5	1.7	2.2
Amherst	1.0	0.4	1.4
Cortland	0.5	0.7	1.2

St Olaf won by an average of 3.5 goals against pretty good competition. Calvin won by an average of 4 goals over weaker competition.

On the other end, Amherst had the very easiest schedule and won by only 1 goal per game. Cortland had slightly more challenging competition but won by only 0.5 goals per game.

Ohio Northern had the toughest schedule (Lynchburg, Messiah).

Much delayed recap of Middlebury vs Johns Hopkins.

Middlebury declined to press aggressively, and much of the first part of the game was spent in possession by Hopkins as their backs worked the ball back and forth in their own half.  A few decent chances each way.  Things started to heat up in the last 19 minutes.  Sawin for Midd cut left to right across the penalty area and was chopped down by a defender, but there was no call on the play.  Harper Nicholl tracked all the way back into his own penalty area, won the ball, and then carried it to midfield, where he did a give and go with Will Sawin.  Nicholl slotted a pass behind the defender for Saint-Louis, who delivered a pinpoint cross that Tyler Payne ran onto and finished with his first touch.  Midd made it 2-0 four minutes later when Saint-Louis sent an inswinger into the 6 yard box and Kyle Nilsson outjumped everyone and scored on the header. 

In the second half, Hopkins began to show more urgency, and they were active and dangerous throughout the half.  They finally got one on the board after a blocked shot dropped to Griffin Meyer 6 yards out, and he made no mistake with the finish.  Hopkins pressed hard for the equalizer, banging one off the crossbar and forcing Grady into a couple of saves, but they could not find the goal they needed. 

First time seeing Hopkins play in person this weekend, and I admire their commitment to a possession style.  I do think they struggle somewhat against teams with a physical presence (3 of the goals they conceded on the weekend were on headers).  For me, these are two of the better teams in the country, and this should not have been a round of 32 matchup.  The committee did the Blue Jays no favors by giving them Babson and then Midd on the opening weekend.

Nice summary, kind of similar to what I posted on the JHU Alumni page on Facebook. The non-call on the PK was pretty shocking.

Commitment to Possession should be on a plaque in the locker room. What I like about the evolution of this style is that the last 3 years or so, they are much more willing to send in through balls and switch the point of attack. They also are more likely lately to break the opposition press or defensive set-up by coming up the middle.

And, yeah, that was an extremely tough draw. #13 and #3 is quite a gauntlet.

I was really impressed with Midd's composure, athleticism and clinical finishing. Very proud that Hopkins came into the 2nd half having carried most of the possession but found themselves down 2... Great resolve and competitive nature to press the Panthers as hard as they did. Grady made a couple of amazing saves. Hopkins also hit the crossbar twice (and to be fair, Midd banged one off the far post in the 2nd half.)

All four NESCAC teams are in the Sweet 16—what's new? Bowdoin, as the fifth team from the NESCAC deserving a bid, is probably wishing they were in the tournament. I truly believe they would have been a dangerous team in this bracket. All credit to Messiah and the great unbeaten season they had, but at what point are we going to realize that their SOS has something to do with it? The last three years prove that Messiah is a fluke #1 ranked team in the nation. My final four prediction is Conn College vs. St. Olaf and Amherst vs. Tufts.

^^^ This take is definitely going to get some people going. I think more than anything it shows the fine margins in the tournament. I will say that the game against ONU was the first time I watched Messiah this year and I wasn't particularly impressed. Sure they had more shots and possession, but they really didn't create many clear cut chances the entire second half. That being said, it seems they were missing their best player and struggled to adjust. But it does seems like the program lacks the truly elite players (Robbins, Thompson, Payne, West, and many more) that they have had in the past. I think its definitely fair to say that Messiah is no longer clearly the dominant DIII program that automatically deserves the benefit of the doubt of being the best team in the country despite their schedule. Instead I think they are one of 5 programs that are capable of winning a National Championship any season which is still a very elite group itself.

And since I mentioned it... Those programs for me are Calvin, Chicago, Messiah, Amherst, and I am hoping Tufts can reestablish themselves at that level under Dezotell. The way I think about it is if you offered me those 5 versus the field at the beginning of the year to win it all I think it may be close to 50/50.

Quote from: d4_Pace on November 13, 2023, 03:24:57 PM
And since I mentioned it... Those programs for me are Calvin, Chicago, Messiah, Amherst, and I am hoping Tufts can reestablish themselves at that level under Dezotell. The way I think about it is if you offered me those 5 versus the field at the beginning of the year to win it all I think it may be close to 50/50.

I agree with both of your points. Messiah is always a favorite when this tournament begins, and arguably had the best player in the country in McDonald (who was injured for the 2nd round game). However, after watching them play, I think there is no gap between them and the top 4 NESCAC teams. In terms of elite programs, I think that the top 5 is spot on.

Quote from: d4_Pace on November 13, 2023, 03:23:23 PM
^^^ This take is definitely going to get some people going. I think more than anything it shows the fine margins in the tournament. I will say that the game against ONU was the first time I watched Messiah this year and I wasn't particularly impressed. Sure they had more shots and possession, but they really didn't create many clear cut chances the entire second half. That being said, it seems they were missing their best player and struggled to adjust. But it does seems like the program lacks the truly elite players (Robbins, Thompson, Payne, West, and many more) that they have had in the past. I think its definitely fair to say that Messiah is no longer clearly the dominant DIII program that automatically deserves the benefit of the doubt of being the best team in the country despite their schedule. Instead I think they are one of 5 programs that are capable of winning a National Championship any season which is still a very elite group itself.

Matt Mcdonald didn't play.  And it was very clear why he is so important.

SC.

What team did Bowdoin deserve to get a bid from?   One of the last teams to get an at large was Oneonta, who had a higher win %, more RR wins and higher SOS.

Quote from: d4_Pace on November 13, 2023, 03:24:57 PM
And since I mentioned it... Those programs for me are Calvin, Chicago, Messiah, Amherst, and I am hoping Tufts can reestablish themselves at that level under Dezotell. The way I think about it is if you offered me those 5 versus the field at the beginning of the year to win it all I think it may be close to 50/50.

If Conn College makes it back to the Final 4, I'm adding them to this list. Reuben Burk is establishing himself as one of the best coaches in the country.

It's underrated how much success he has had in 4 seasons. He's now in his third Sweet 16 in 4 years. Has a National Title, Elite 8, and two NESCAC Finals.

Wow...and here we go...

My take...

Both things can be true.  Messiah is still the preeminent program in the country.  They generally play a pretty good schedule, although this year was probably marginally weaker.  They certainly would not go unbeaten in the NESCAC, but by the same token, not a single NESCAC would have gone 42-1-2 or whatever it was the past two years with Messiah's schedule.  That said, on a year to year basis the Falcons aren't singularly special in way that is now qualitatively different than several other teams.  I actually agree with D4's heuristic of a top 5, and imo, his attempt at Tufts humility aside, his picks are right on the money...Messiah, Calvin, Chicago, Amherst, Tufts (and not in any particular order).  Based on the past decade plus, those five deserve to be considered on a tier of their own.  Then there is another elite group of 10-12 schools who for the most part have been very much in the mix over that same time period.

Recency bias is always tricky, but I can't recall a year when the results in rounds 1 and 2 were so tight.  A large number of games going to PKs and very few having a margin of more than one goal.  Overall, it seems that there are a greater number of strong programs and increasingly smaller margins between teams in the top two to three tiers.

Yes, four NESCACs are in the Sweet 16.  You have reason to celebrate, obviously, but none of them beat teams they weren't supposed to beat.  No one said the NESCAC isn't great or hasn't had at least four and sometimes almost five teams in the a legit top 10 all season.  It sometimes feels like grievance is manufactured (as though NESCAC repeatedly is undervalued or disrespected), which then greases the skids for a hearty sense of vindication in reaction to feeling aggrieved.  Was NESCAC undervalued 10-15 years ago?  Maybe.  But not now.  I would challenge anyone to find a post on the boards from this entire season suggesting that NESCAC isn't the top conference with at least a handful of outstanding, Final Four caliber teams.

Btw, the other element missing in the Messiah critiques....maybe Ohio Northern is pretty good (speaking of teams with back to back Sweet 16 appearances).

One of the best things about this past season imo is that -- in addition to another year of sedimenting the greatness of NESCAC -- we've been more exposed than usual to the fact that very good soccer is played across the country....The Texas group, St Olaf, GAC, Carleton, North Central, the OAC group, W&L and Lynchburg, Mary Wash, Oxy, Pac Lu, etc.  It sure helps when someone takes the time to put some sunlight on these other places (and Kuiper and SC in their own ways deserve by miles the most credit).

Hmm. Midd won by 1 over what was probably an emotionally exhausted JHU team.   Conn College tied both their games in regulation and if this was a standard weekend they would have gone home 0-0-2.  F&M controlled more than their fair share of the game but could not convert.  Conn beats F&M on the 7th or 8th round of PK's.   Good soccer by Conn but not dominant.

Quote from: D3Parent1 on November 13, 2023, 05:45:05 PM
Hmm. Midd won by 1 over what was probably an emotionally exhausted JHU team.   Conn College tied both their games in regulation and if this was a standard weekend they would have gone home 0-0-2.  F&M controlled more than their fair share of the game but could not convert.  Conn beats F&M on the 7th or 8th round of PK's.   Good soccer by Conn but not dominant.

A lot of excuses in this post. The teams that won moved on, deservedly so.

Quote from: D3Parent1 on November 13, 2023, 05:45:05 PM
Hmm. Midd won by 1 over what was probably an emotionally exhausted JHU team.   Conn College tied both their games in regulation and if this was a standard weekend they would have gone home 0-0-2.  F&M controlled more than their fair share of the game but could not convert.  Conn beats F&M on the 7th or 8th round of PK's.   Good soccer by Conn but not dominant.

And Hopkins could have been out in the first round if Babson could hold a lead.  We can do what ifs all day long.  I don't think anyone made the argument that Conn was dominant this weekend.  As Paul Newman noted, there were a lot of close games.  Conn won in OT and advanced on PKs.  Tufts and Midd each had 3-0 wins the first day followed by 2-1 the second.  Amherst had two one goal wins, one in OT.  No one is claiming that the NESCAC teams are dominating every game.  But 4 out of 4 in the final 16 this year, 3 out of 4 last year, 4 out of four in 2021, and 3 out of four in 2019 means that they are doing something right.

There is no substitute for preparation and the rigor of NESCAC schedule prepares teams well for this knock out phase of the season.

NESCACs are no good, now someone has said it  :)

Do we have to wait for D4_pace and Northman to chime in or are we good to move on from the NESCAC fluffing?

4 sensitive NESCAC replies to my post...I don't post often so I don't know if that means it is a good post that touched a nerve or an ignorant one?   I did not mean to put down any team or program.  Everyone that is moving on deserved it and I wish them all well.  No exceptions.  I want no ones season to end.  I think the last game of your last year of college is possibly the saddest moment in most athletes lives.   

As I said in my post Conn played good soccer, not dominant.  They won. They move on.   I am a NESCAC grad and I had kids that played in both the NESCAC and the CC with some success so I don't think I am biased.  Clearly the NESCAC is the strongest soccer in the country the past 10 years...as to why I think that is.....I leave for other smarter folks to figure out...

Came here to check on thoughts for the eventual winner of this thing.  Think I'll just stick to my instincts based on my limited time here: Nobody Ever Should Challenge Aforementioned Conference.

I haven't watched much of the bottom bracket, but I like Mary Washington and Middlebury up top to make the final 4.  For rounding sake I'll take ONU and Calvin?  And Mary Washington as the 2023 champion.

First and second rounds were very entertaining and saw some great individual and team performances.  Wish I had a couple more monitors (maybe next year.)

The NESCAC should be a top 2 league in division III.  I don't find it particularly noteworthy that it is.  They have inherent recruiting advantages over most of division III.  You still have to win the games, but the ceiling is always going to be higher than 95% of division III.  Same applies to the UAA.   

Quote from: EnmoreCat on November 13, 2023, 06:31:44 PM
NESCACs are no good, now someone has said it  :)

NESCRAP?

SC.

Quote from: stlawus on November 13, 2023, 07:04:51 PM
The NESCAC should be a top 2 league in division III.  I don't find it particularly noteworthy that it is.  They have inherent recruiting advantages over most of division III.  You still have to win the games, but the ceiling is always going to be higher than 95% of division III.  Same applies to the UAA.   

What advantages?  If you read the football boards, they all claim they can't get good players past admissions.

That's certainly one way to spin it and not the fact that they are not NCAA tournament eligible and have to fill out rosters of 50+ where it takes more than one talented player to win.

The advantages are pretty obvious.  National recruiting footprint and allure due to the prestige of the institutions.  Being located in the literal back yards of the country's top prep schools exacerbates this dynamic.   This is why I hold programs like Ohio Wesleyan, Kenyon, Oneonta, Cortland etc in the highest regard.  Year in year out these programs field extremely competitive teams despite having regional footprints and no top 10 or 20 academic rankings.  All superb universities, but lack the endowment figures that the NESCACs have which exceed the GDP of island nations.     Again, you still have to win the games, and the NESCACs do that which is to their full credit. It's not like you can just plug anyone in to lead those programs and they'd have success overnight.  I just find it tedious that we have to pretend like this is something not expected.

Quote from: stlawus on November 13, 2023, 07:04:51 PM
The NESCAC should be a top 2 league in division III.  I don't find it particularly noteworthy that it is.  They have inherent recruiting advantages over most of division III.  You still have to win the games, but the ceiling is always going to be higher than 95% of division III.  Same applies to the UAA.   

The recruiting stuff cuts both ways.  Yes the schools are attractive and academically prestigious.  However, there is an academic standard that they do not deviate from much.  At Middlebury, for example, the women's sports of field hockey, ice hockey, and lacrosse have been dominant.  Part of that is the New England Prep school milieu that they can draw from.  When I asked a couple of men's sports coaches at Midd why the women's teams have been so successful, the response was basically that high school girls are often more academically focused than boys are as HS freshmen.  The girls tend not to have the C's on their transcript that some high school boys wind up with.  For many of the NESCACs, a C on the transcript is a barrier to getting the student admitted.  So yes, the schools are attractive, but they cannot and do not get every single talented athlete admitted to the schools.

Quote from: College Soccer Observer on November 13, 2023, 07:31:33 PM

Quote from: stlawus on November 13, 2023, 07:04:51 PM
The NESCAC should be a top 2 league in division III.  I don't find it particularly noteworthy that it is.  They have inherent recruiting advantages over most of division III.  You still have to win the games, but the ceiling is always going to be higher than 95% of division III.  Same applies to the UAA.   

The recruiting stuff cuts both ways.  Yes the schools are attractive and academically prestigious.  However, there is an academic standard that they do not deviate from much.  At Middlebury, for example, the women's sports of field hockey, ice hockey, and lacrosse have been dominant.  Part of that is the New England Prep school milieu that they can draw from.  When I asked a couple of men's sports coaches at Midd why the women's teams have been so successful, the response was basically that high school girls are often more academically focused than boys are as HS freshmen.  The girls tend not to have the C's on their transcript that some high school boys wind up with.  For many of the NESCACs, a C on the transcript is a barrier to getting the student admitted.  So yes, the schools are attractive, but they cannot and do not get every single talented athlete admitted to the schools.

The NESCAC soccer teams heavily recruit from the NEPSAC and prep schools around the country.   If you go through their rosters you'll find that most are players that went to rigorous prep schools or highly rated public schools.   This is not unique to the NESCAC, but the recruiting pool for other schools is nowhere near as immense.  Can't get this kid in from Brewster?  Oh well we'll just work on the one from South Kent.  He's going to a rival team? Oh that's fine we'll go after the kid from the Bay Area.   The 2nd tier of schools either have to work extreme recruiting magic or take the leftovers that weren't pursued.

Quote from: paclassic89 on November 13, 2023, 06:35:49 PM
Do we have to wait for D4_pace and Northman to chime in or are we good to move on from the NESCAC fluffing?

I feel sufficiently fluffed! I do find the NESCAC collective outrage entertaining. I root for the other NESCAC teams to lose in the first round as hard as I can.

Quote from: Freddyfud on November 13, 2023, 07:02:16 PM
Came here to check on thoughts for the eventual winner of this thing.  Think I'll just stick to my instincts based on my limited time here: Nobody Ever Should Challenge Aforementioned Conference.

I haven't watched much of the bottom bracket, but I like Mary Washington and Middlebury up top to make the final 4.  For rounding sake I'll take ONU and Calvin?  And Mary Washington as the 2023 champion.

First and second rounds were very entertaining and saw some great individual and team performances.  Wish I had a couple more monitors (maybe next year.)

While Mary Washington has probably had the best season on paper of all the remaining teams, I just don't think they have what it takes to win a national championship. When November comes, certain teams crumble, and others prevail. While they have all the pieces to win it all, something tells me they won't.

Mary Wash crumbled last year all the way through Amherst and Bowdoin (at Amherst) into the Final Four.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 13, 2023, 08:56:47 PM
Mary Wash crumbled last year all the way through Amherst and Bowdoin (at Amherst) into the Final Four.

You beat me to it!

Quote from: College Soccer Observer on November 13, 2023, 09:07:23 PM

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 13, 2023, 08:56:47 PM
Mary Wash crumbled last year all the way through Amherst and Bowdoin (at Amherst) into the Final Four.

You beat me to it!

LOL.  Best of luck to you and your son, CSO.  Would love to see Middlebury finish the deal.

I think I'm pulling for Midd, Montclair, St Olaf, and Ohio Northern.

One game at a time.  Cortland is very tough.

This isn't a full preview of the Occidental @ Amherst Sweet Sixteen game, but since we have all week, I thought I would offer one bit of "it's a small world" color to the game that most people won't know about.  I'm putting it on the tournament thread and the Go WEST thread since the Amherst/NESCAC fans may not look in the Go WEST thread.

This is the first time Occidental and Amherst will ever play in men's soccer, but for a number of people, it will be a reunion.  Max Landa, Amherst's starting goalkeeper, is from Southern California and went to La Canada HS, Class of 2020.  Marcus Chmielewski, Occidental's starting striker also went to La Canada HS Class of 2020, as did Tyler Na-Nakornpanom, Occidental's backup striker, who was two years behind Max and Marcus.  Over their four years, Max and Marcus only lost two games in league and both were first team All-League their senior year, with Marcus named league MVP, while Tyler was an honorable mention that same year.  Here's a link to an article about the team:

https://www.latimes.com/socal/la-canada-valley-sun/sports/story/2020-03-25/la-canada-boys-soccer-standout-chmielewski-earns-league-mvp-honors

In addition, Max and Marcus were club teammates on LA Surf ECNL, which was coached by Rod Lafaurie, LA Surf's Director of Elite Programming and Occidental's head coach. 

I don't think any of them thought they would all reunite on a field in Western Masschusetts, but it should be cool to watch.

Thanks Kuiper..it is always good to get to know the teams as they move through the tournament.

Jr. Oury Diane (Occidental) is a Conn College transfer. He's familiar with Amherst having played numerous times in his two seasons at Conn

I think he is definitely familiar with the environment.  However, the game by game stats reveal that he did not appear in any game against Amherst in the 2021 or 2022 seasons, so he has not played in a game on that field against that opponent.

Quote from: Kuiper on November 14, 2023, 01:10:23 AM
This isn't a full preview of the Occidental @ Amherst Sweet Sixteen game, but since we have all week, I thought I would offer one bit of "it's a small world" color to the game that most people won't know about.  I'm putting it on the tournament thread and the Go WEST thread since the Amherst/NESCAC fans may not look in the Go WEST thread.

This is the first time Occidental and Amherst will ever play in men's soccer, but for a number of people, it will be a reunion.  Max Landa, Amherst's starting goalkeeper, is from Southern California and went to La Canada HS, Class of 2020.  Marcus Chmielewski, Occidental's starting striker also went to La Canada HS Class of 2020, as did Tyler Na-Nakornpanom, Occidental's backup striker, who was two years behind Max and Marcus.  Over their four years, Max and Marcus only lost two games in league and both were first team All-League their senior year, with Marcus named league MVP, while Tyler was an honorable mention that same year.  Here's a link to an article about the team:

https://www.latimes.com/socal/la-canada-valley-sun/sports/story/2020-03-25/la-canada-boys-soccer-standout-chmielewski-earns-league-mvp-honors

In addition, Max and Marcus were club teammates on LA Surf ECNL, which was coached by Rod Lafaurie, LA Surf's Director of Elite Programming and Occidental's head coach. 

I don't think any of them thought they would all reunite on a field in Western Masschusetts, but it should be cool to watch.

Very cool. Thanks for sharing.

Quote from: paclassic89 on November 13, 2023, 06:35:49 PM
Do we have to wait for D4_pace and Northman to chime in or are we good to move on from the NESCAC fluffing?

I see that my name has been invoked.  I was traveling all day yesterday, so I'm late to the party and my post will be out of sequence.

I agree with the comments that the inherent NESCAC recruiting "advantages" are actually a mixed blessing.  From an academic standpoint, the NESCACs (and the UAA schools, Claremont colleges, Kenyon, Carleton, W&L, etc.) are desirable targets for high school student athletes with academic aspirations.  But they ain't easy to get into. 

As one anecdotal example, my older son...who was a strong student, but not ranked in the top 10 at his high school...was the top recruit at a NESCAC school, but he was considered a C-band recruit and it would have taken a lot of things to go right for him to be admitted.  He ended up being admitted to Brown early decision to play D1 soccer there.

There is a large and growing talent pool of high school soccer players across the country these days...and not all of these good players are going to play D1.  Many of them will happily play D3.  And not all of them are interested in the top academic schools.  I have admittedly not watched many soccer games outside of the NESCAC, but I occasionally will watch some tournament games.  For example, I watched the replay of the wild game between St. Thomas and Texas Lutheran.  In my view, there was a high degree of athleticism and technical skill on the pitch.  Many of those players are Texas locals.

So, I don't buy the notion that the NESCAC schools have a built-in advantage when it comes to recruiting.  I think the NESCAC's biggest advantages are geographical proximity, parity, and a high degree of competitive spirit within a well defined conference.

My two cents...

On another note,  I don't recall anyone mentioning that Midd has on its roster a brother of F&M star Oscar Horwitz.

Also noticed for first time that Midd has 3 assts, including former star from Massachusetts, Greg Conrad....as well as a culture and leadership coach and a yoga/mindfulness coach. And last but maybe not least, a Director of Operations.

The three most active coaches on game day are Elias, Emmett, Potter.  Ben Potter has been an awesome addition as an assistnat this year.  He was a captain of the 2019 side who spent some time in the finance world before deciding to coach.  His father is one of the coaches at North Shore Country Day in Illinois, which just won the small school state championship this fall. 

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 14, 2023, 12:10:33 PM
On another note,  I don't recall anyone mentioning that Midd has on its roster a brother of F&M star Oscar Horwitz.

Also noticed for first time that Midd has 3 assts, including former star from Massachusetts, Greg Conrad....as well as a culture and leadership coach and a yoga/mindfulness coach. And last but maybe not least, a Director of Operations.

Yeah, did not mention.  Very nice family. Don't know the younger Horowitz, but briefly met him at games last year.  Oscar is a great guy. Youngest is seeing the field and hopefully even more next year. Said it before, but Oscar came as def. back and had not played striker since he was young according to his father.

Two weekends ago, their parents drove from NY to Lancaster Friday night.  After F&M's loss to Muhlenberg 2-1 in the semis, they then drove (7 hours or so) on Friday night from to Middlebury VT to see their other son's team lose 2-1 in the semis at 11am.  Brutal game(s).  Not sure about last weekend, but guessing the same after F&M's second round PK loss on Saturday night they most likely drove back to VT.  Fortunately, Midds beat JHU.  FYI, Horowitz brothers now have a 4 game win streak against Hop. Three by Oscar (who has scored 5 goals against Hop) and one by the younger.

Both will be back next year. Maybe, like three years ago, F&M can meet Middlebury in the NCAAs. Not quite the Kelce brothers as I don't think either one is dating a famous pop singer or have marched as Mummer on New Years Day.

The NESCAC clearly the SEC of D3 Soccer..  Over 400  D3 programs yet they get 4 into the final 16.  Would like to see the NCAA spread out the teams and not make the first 2 rounds so local.  The best teams should get to advance regardless of cost.. The games are amazing to watch.  Looking fwd to the weekend..

NESCAC Sweet 16 Preview

Amherst - Is anyone surprised that Amherst is sitting in the sweet 16 and hosting at Hitchcock Field?  I am sure the sprinklers are on and the lawn mowers are no where to be found.  They will be a tough out on their home field.  The skill of Ada and Nuhu on the outside is devastating in that they can beat players 1v1 and also create numerous corners, set pieces and long throws.  Stevens, while able to hold on for dear life for 90+ minutes, eventually faltered.  They came into the game expecting a soccer match and learned it would be more a combination of wrestling and volleyball all rolled into one.  Although I have been a constant critic of their style, you have to admire Justin Serpone's tactics in round 1 when he barely used his starters, risking a first round upset, to be able to unleash his top crew for nearly 110 minutes in round 2.

I have not seen Occidental play but I am sure they are well deserving and will put up a fight.  They traveled to Texas and came away with two impressive wins even though one was aided by an early red card on opposing keeper.   At least they are used to getting fouled hard, which will definitely occur on Saturday. They also have another impressive road victory against Redlands. Amherst has been very reliant on the set piece goal as of late except for Nuhu's heroics.  Perhaps this is a function of one of my favorite midfield maestros Cubbedu being out with injury.  The Stevens game proves you can wait a long time for this result which is why I think they are at risk.

No players in the league had more playoff experience than Ada and Cubeddu. Although both hoisted back to back league trophies, you bet they are expecting to hoist the big one.

Middlebury - As I have said in the past, I think they have the best collection of talent across the field in the league and a lot of "senior experience". They are generating a lot of legit scoring chances. Like Tufts, they used a dominant first half performance to knock of the storied Hopkins program and held on in a more competitive second half.  Their big game players, highlight by St Louis, have stepped up recently and their scoring potential is top of the group.

I have not seen Cortland play but they have an impressive resume and SOS.  They were able to advance on PKs against a very good CWRU squad where they used a PK in regulation but were unable to hold on for the win.  One thing that I would point out is that they do not have a signature road win (except possibly Brockport), losing to Rochester and tieing Rowan on the road. While this is a neutral site road and Middlebury has also not put up an impressive road victory, Middlebury is a little more familiar with the peculiarities of Hitchcock Field so will have that as an advantage.

I want to believe that talent will win out and Middlebury will sail to their first final 4 in many many years, I predict it will come down to how the referees handle Amherst style.  If the refs, like in the NESCAC tournament,  allows Amherst to clutch and grab and tactically foul, without setting the tone with yellows, it could be a long day.  Also Amherst brings in considerable more experience and home field which both help even the playing field.  Ada and Cubeddu have played in 20+ playoff (NESCAC and NCAA) games. 

However, Middlebury has the big time keeper and CB Madden has the size and strength to dominate the defensive box.  He will be needed to fight off the 30+ launches in the box that they will generate on the small and slow pitch.  The winner of this potential match up could be hoisting the trophy in VA.

Tufts - no team has come on stronger and been more impressive in the last month than Tufts, their front four have really matured and produced big goals down the stretch.  Also, Bargagna is playing aggressively, getting forward and had 3 assist over the weekend.Like Middlebury, Tufts used a dominant first half performance to beat Rochester and held on at the end when the momentum shifted.  Their GK proved the ability to come up big.  While they are still relatively young with big contributions from juniors and sophomores, they also have tons of playoff experience among their leaders.

Also, lets face it, while every team left is very, very capable, the Messiah loss was a "gift from God" as it allowed Tufts to be the top remaining seed in their group and host another weekend.

W&L is a storied program in D3 and put up impressive results in a very solid region.  They have a big time scorer up front, something not really seen this year in the NESCAC where the scoring has been much more spread out at the top teams.  It will be interesting to see how the Jumbos scheme to neutralize this level of talent. Either Colorado or Ohio Northern will be very strong challenges if Tufts does advance. 

I certainly like Tufts chances to make it to the final four since they are hosting.  Their leaders Traynor, Clivio, Brady, Campbell and Gerkin have a ton of playoff experience and Traynor has a ring and has been part of 20+ playoff games. However, we all remember the classic 2021 elite 8 match up where Conn shrugged off 2 deficits to end the three peat hope of the Jumbos at home in a wild 5-4 road victory for the Camels.

Conn College - They look like the most battle tested so far of the group with an epic OT/PK advancement over host and highly ranked F&M last weekend after needing OT and 2 PKs during OT to take down a scrappy Denison team.  While certainly a very solid if not down right spectacular team all season, Conn seems to be limping a bit right now.  I love their tactics with a high level of possession orientation but their firepower has not been there.  In their four playoff games, they have not produced many goals from the run of play, needing PKs, set pieces, which is really not their strength compared to others, or goalie mistakes (like F&M).  They seem content to play super conservatively. Perhaps the mid season injury to Jauran, one of my (and PN) favorites in one of the reasons for the lack of dangerous play in the final third.

They probably have, on paper, the toughest 3rd round game versus Montclair State who has a big time scorer in their mix and an impressive resume.  MS did lose their one NESCAC match up of the season at home to Amherst in what best can be described as a blood bath.  If Conn can get by MS, then a probable away match up at Mary Washington, last seasons NESCAC slayer, will be a tall order.  In my opinion, MW had the most impressive season of any non-NESCAC with its only loss on the road at Messiah and several other signature wins on the road, neutral and at home.

However don't forget that the core of this team, Creuss, Scaffone, Cervezo, Sylvester, and AHD have a ton of deep playoff experience and a ring to show for it.  That will mean something on the road in a dogfight as they have already proven.

(Paul Newman quote) "Btw, the other element missing in the Messiah critiques....maybe Ohio Northern is pretty good (speaking of teams with back to back Sweet 16 appearances)."

I was at the game and P.N. is correct in that ONU deserves the credit for this win. For those who are contending that Messiah soccer is not what it once was, they seem to forget that they were unbeaten in over 40 games. If those same individuals would have watched the game against Baruch (I know it was Baruch), they would have said they were spectacular--and they were. I understand that they were missing a key player, but at this point in the season a lot of teams are dealing with injury issues. A couple of ONU starters played limited minutes due to injuries. I think two factors contributed to ONU's win. First, their SOS prepared them for tournament play, and secondly there back five played an excellent game. 

Sorry about the long post, but as noted before ONU deserves credit for the win. Sometimes a team looks bad because the other team made them look that way.

Happy to say hello to any other d3 board posters who will be in Boston this weekend!

What number is your son , if you don't mind?

#7

Thanks , will look out , mine is #4.

Quote from: camosfan on November 15, 2023, 03:29:16 PM
Thanks , will look out , mine is #4.

I will keep an eye out as well!

Some Predictions for Sweet 16 games:

Amherst vs Occidental: Amherst 3-0
Middlebury vs Cortland: Middlebury 1-0

Ohio Northern vs Colorado College: Colorado College in penalties
Tufts vs Washington and Lee: Tufts 2-0

Mary Washington vs Wash College: Wash College in penalties
Conn College vs Montclaire State: 2-1 Conn College

Calvin vs Uchicago: Calvin 3-2
St Olaf vs Wis-Eau Claire: St Olaf 2-1

Amherst could surprise me and end up blowing out Occidental but after watching their first two games, Serpone seems content to rely on playing a high-level kickball game with whoever they match up with.  They'll probably nick a goal off of their 30th long throw in of the game and win by 1

Quote from: paclassic89 on November 16, 2023, 01:01:51 AM
Amherst could surprise me and end up blowing out Occidental but after watching their first two games, Serpone seems content to rely on playing a high-level kickball game with whoever they match up with.  They'll probably nick a goal off of their 30th long throw in of the game and win by 1

Exactly my prediction as well.

Windy city is living up to its name in the Calvin-Chicago match. The Knights had the wind at their backs in the first half, but Chicago weathered the pressure well and were able to get a goal to take an advantage into the intermission. Chicago was very solid defensively and Calvin also was a step off in the crucial moments in the final third. The Knights can take some solace in the fact that the deficit isn't greater, but they did have some chances themselves to even things up.

Curious to see what tactical changes Coach Souders makes in the second half. The outlet for the Knights seems to have been their outside backs who have been very involved in the build-up, but haven't been as tidy or clinical as they may have needed to be offensively. Also, when fighting the wind, some of the attempted through balls particularly from Alex White won't be as effective and some new avenues will have to be explored. As for Chicago, they will most likely continue to play physical and prevent the Knights from letting their dangermen such as Akintade and Schau from being able to carry the ball into dangerous positions, and will look to use the wind to create some confusion for Calvin's backline and get another tally.

Akintade with a goal to tie it in the 57th minute for Calvin.

Quote from: calvin_grad on November 17, 2023, 02:29:04 PM
Akintade with a goal to tie it in the 57th minute for Calvin.

Looking back at the goal on the stream, I'm pretty confident that was Jacob Ryu who got the last touch from Foster Garrett's assist.

Knights ramping up the pressure. Vanderlugt with a brilliant finish but he is marginally offsides coming from a second phase set piece. A couple moments later, Ryu able to manufacture a shot from a tight angle that is just about blocked away for a corner. 10 minutes left in regular time in this one.

Curious what you mean by second phase set piece. Back to goal set piece... I'm having trouble picturing it.

Quote from: Nsno9 on November 17, 2023, 02:33:01 PM

Quote from: calvin_grad on November 17, 2023, 02:29:04 PM
Akintade with a goal to tie it in the 57th minute for Calvin.

Looking back at the goal on the stream, I'm pretty confident that was Jacob Ryu who got the last touch from Foster Garrett's assist.

Yep.  Box score gave the goal first to Akintade, now to Garrett, but neither of those are correct.

Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 17, 2023, 02:56:14 PM
Curious what you mean by second phase set piece. Back to goal set piece... I'm having trouble picturing it.

Just meaning the initial ball was cleared away, defense stepped up, and then the ball was sent back in leading to the chance. It was an excellent step as any one player caught ball watching could have prevented the offsides decision.

Ah, gotcha... Makes sense... There's some coaching jargon that talks about the phases of finishing that got me tripped up.

Quote from: calvin_grad on November 17, 2023, 03:00:40 PM
Yep.  Box score gave the goal first to Akintade, now to Garrett, but neither of those are correct.

Totally agree. Regardless, I have been really impressed with Garrett and his development this season. He has grown a lot in his ball retention and his dribbling instincts and it has led to some much improved performances. Still needs some work on letting the game come to him after making a long run and getting his head up a second earlier, but those skills will inevitably continue to develop.

Unreal save from Wunder with 5 minutes left on the 1v1 chance from Baldwin. Goal seemed inevitable from that position, but just turned outside of the post by a big left hand.

Schau gets pulled down on a mini-break with 9 seconds left outside the box.  Red card for Chicago defender.  Resulting free kick goes high and we are headed to PKs.

Heartbreak again losing to Chicago.   :'(  Thank you seniors!

Quote from: calvin_grad on November 17, 2023, 03:32:58 PM
Schau gets pulled down on a mini-break with 9 seconds left outside the box.  Red card for Chicago defender.  Resulting free kick goes high and we are headed to PKs.

Probably a game-saving tackle in the grand scheme. Schau was in on goal and could've won it in the last 10 seconds, and the resulting man advantage was not worth much considering the timing. Calvin bow out in penalties 5-4, and the Maroons live to fight another day. A really excellent game to watch, and the Knights showed their determination in coming back from a deficit against a strong Chicago defensive unit.

Such a brutal way to lose.

Couple of random comments..

Chicago and Calvin both are totally on the level of top end NESCAC, which makes sense given that most acknowledge they are top 5 programs.

St Olaf has to be beat UWEC of course but I think Chicago advancing is oddly a break for the Oles if they get thru today....Calvin would be the hungrier, more desperate team and I can't recall a Calvin team ever losing in Elite 8.  Hard to explain but just think St Olaf has a better chance to get to F4 via Chicago.

Also a random thought on Ohio Northern. We forget that ONU played Williams in between the Messiah and Kenyon games...and the stats across the board were dead even.  A 0-0 game for long time until Williams got one in the 2nd half. V interesting match with Colorado Coll as both are riding ton of momentum.

Calvin bowing out is also instructive when evaluating other teams regarding tourney success and lack thereof.  That is a truly excellent team with stars who have lost in 2nd round and failed to advance in Sweet 16 back to back years. And one could also ask why Calvin and Chicago were playing each other in the Sweet 16.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 17, 2023, 03:59:04 PM
Calvin bowing out is also instructive when evaluating other teams regarding tourney success and lack thereof.  That is a truly excellent team with stars who have lost in 2nd round and failed to advance in Sweet 16 back to back years. And one could also ask why Calvin and Chicago were playing each other in the Sweet 16.

It will never happen, but my thinking has changed.  I think once the teams are selected, the bracket should filled out by drawing balls out of a big bowl.  Highest national ranking hosts  the weekend....

SC.

And there goes my national runner-up :-(

As an exercise someone should re-rank the Sweet 16 and repod them. See what you'd come up with.

It is pretty much an unseeded tournament and the two best teams can meet at any time Round 2 on. Nobody is playing for 2nd place so who cares when they play.  Ask SC he thinks there was a team in the final last year that did not belong in tournament.  So clearly the best teams for him played in an early round.

Quote from: SKUD on November 17, 2023, 04:50:07 PM
It is pretty much an unseeded tournament and the two best teams can meet at any time Round 2 on. Nobody is playing for 2nd place so who cares when they play.  Ask SC he thinks there was a team in the final last year that did not belong in tournament.  So clearly the best teams for him played in an early round.

So not a bit of difference to you if Babson loses in 1st round or Elite 8?  Nothing short of a title means anything?

It is what it is in terms of when teams play. A 64 team single elimination tournament isn't designed to crown the best team as champion. You have to focus on the team you are playing and ignore everything else. And you never know what version of a team you are going to get. Take UW-Eau Claire for example. They wouldn't even be in this tournament if there were no Pool B bid. They played like the best team in their 1st/2nd round pod despite a significantly less accomplished resume than both of their opponents. And here they sit in the Sweet Sixteen.

With regional considerations, and the fact that there are only 16 teams remaining after the opening weekend, I think strong matchups in the second weekend should be expected. Frustration can certainly be understood when big matches come earlier than desired in the tournament, but I don't think the Chicago v Calvin matchup was particularly unfair to either team in this case. It was a top-15 matchup in the Sweet 16 which feels appropriate.

PN it is always nice for a season to be extend.  But D3 does not seed their tournaments other than wrestling the realest sport of all. So we deal with it and move on to the next season.  The NCAA is so lazy that the top 2 teams all season (in another sport)  just played in a semi final.  Oh well.

Quote from: Nsno9 on November 17, 2023, 05:19:52 PM
With regional considerations, and the fact that there are only 16 teams remaining after the opening weekend, I think strong matchups in the second weekend should be expected. Frustration can certainly be understood when big matches come earlier than desired in the tournament, but I don't think the Chicago v Calvin matchup was particularly unfair to either team in this case. It was a top-15 matchup in the Sweet 16 which feels appropriate.

Yeah, I'm not saying it was unfair or even unusual for the tournament.  In fact, I think they've faced off in the Sweet 16 a couple of other times.  I'm still gonna say it feels a little unfortunate.  Imagine if Amherst and Midd had to play each other in the 2nd round.  There would be screams that "that's too soon...they weren't seeded properly."  Even in the Sweet 16, there would be intense complaints.  And imo it wasn't a top 15 matchup...but rather top 7 or 8 or higher.

As for UWEC they've been very good for their entire two years.  They got knocked out last year by GAC in PKs before GAC bowed out in the Elite 8 to Chicago.  And yes, those two wins over North Central and Platteville seemed to verify that they are quite good.

And results DO matter to A LOT of teams.  Some are trying to win their first NCAA game ever.  Some trying to get to their first Sweet 16 or Elite 8 or Final 4 ever.  Just making the tournament at all is huge for a number of programs.

It's interesting. In the final fan poll, released before tournament started, Chicago was 15, Calvin 9. By all rights, that's a pretty fair matchup in a round of 16. In 4 pods of 4, it's a 2.25 seed vs a 3.75 seed overall. Considering a 4 team pod should be 1v4 and 2v3, it's darn close.

That's the thing about having 16 teams left out of 400+. Anyone can win at any time. That's why Messiah (1) is out, North Central (6), F&M (7), Emory (T14) and Kenyon (16) are all out from the final Top 16 ranking. That's almost 1/3 (5/16). You can say, well, the seedings were wrong and they lost to good teams, but for the highly ranked teams that dropped, W&L (RV), Washington College (RV), Ohio Northern (RV), Occidental (RV), and UWEC, or 5/16 of the remainder, were outside the Top 25. UWEC wasn't even in the RV category.

To get to the Sweet 16, W&L had to beat SUNY Oneonta (18), Washington College (Otterbein T24, Kenyon 16), ONU (Lynchburg 22, Messiah 1), Occidental (Trinity TX 20), UWEC (North Central T9, UW-P 19). Everyone one of these teams had to beat at least one team ranked ahead of them.

Did the voters do a bad job? Did the committees do a bad job? No.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. For the most part, the difference between the top 5-7 schools is negligible. You can put them in order, but it's really who started faster, who had the blemish longest ago, or who has the most impressive victory. None of which are actually good measures of anything. The difference between 7 and 15 is essentially irrelevant. The difference between 10 and 25 is razor thin. The difference between 15 and 35 is basically squat. And somewhere from 25-50 is pretty much splitting hairs. Yes the groups overlap, and yes they should.

For all of us who have participated in these polls, we know anywhere you put teams in these groupings is essentially equal, you are just finding some way to justify them with a number, and rarely is that justification based on anything truly relevant.

So yeah, 2 very good teams played today in a hard fought game that sends one home. It's going to happen tomorrow a lot. Because within these final 16 teams, there isn't much difference. Some will play well, some may not. It may look like a big difference on the day, or it may look like the Chicago - Calvin razor thin match. But if you played these 8 games 10x, they would probably average out to mostly close games and probably a whole lot of overall close records.

There just isn't that much difference anywhere in the bunch.

So according to the voters, who has the easiest game in this round and who has the hardest?

Calvin (T9), Chicago (15)
St Olaf (12), UW-EC (None)
ONU (RV), CC (14)
Tufts (8), W&L (RV)

MW (2), WC (RV)
Montclair (7), Conn (5)
Amherst (3), Oxy (RV)
Cortland (6), Middlebury (4)

Well the biggest chalk should be Mary Washington or Amherst. For me, the toughest draw was not Calvin/Chicago, it's Cortland/Middlebury, followed by Montclair/Conn. The Calvin/Chicago game would have been the third most unfair out of the 8 games.

Overall, looking at the pods, the Amherst pod is by far the most brutal. Cortland/Middlebury is, in a 4 team pod, a 1 vs 1.5. That whole pod has a .75, a 1, a 1.5 and an Unranked. That's a savage pod. Not far behind is Mary Washington, with a .5, a 1.25, a 1.75, and an Unranked.

The easiest pod overall is Tufts'. That pod has a 2, a 3.5, and two Unranked. That actually leaves the Calvin, Chicago pod as second easiest, a 2.25, a 3.75, a 3, and an Unranked.

Quote from: SKUD on November 17, 2023, 05:23:51 PM
PN it is always nice for a season to be extend.  But D3 does not seed their tournaments other than wrestling the realest sport of all. So we deal with it and move on to the next season.  The NCAA is so lazy that the top 2 teams all season (in another sport)  just played in a semi final.  Oh well.

I think there is some seeding...in recent prior seasons there were a couple of byes that iirc went to teams within the top few.  There are also attempts to even out quadrants via seeding and hosting to the extent that other factors like cost don't interfere.  But it's certainly not completely unseeded.

Just to look at this weekends matchups from Massey ratings:

Calvin (6) v Chicago (11)
St Olaf (7) v UW-EC (18)

ONU (38) v CC (21)
Tufts (4) v W&L (31)

MW (3) v WC (33)
Montclair (9) v Conn (8)

Amherst (5) v Oxy (16)
Cortland (10) v Middlebury (1)

The lowest rated team is 38th (and that's a team in ONU that won the OAC and just knocked off a top-5 team in Messiah), although this past weekend's matches would have impacted those scores a bit. 11 of those 16 are within the top-16, and a the rest aren't too far outside.

Quote from: jknezek on November 17, 2023, 05:33:59 PM
It's interesting. In the final fan poll, released before tournament started, Chicago was 15, Calvin 9. By all rights, that's a pretty fair matchup in a round of 16. In 4 pods of 4, it's a 2.25 seed vs a 3.75 seed overall. Considering a 4 team pod should be 1v4 and 2v3, it's darn close.

That's the thing about having 16 teams left out of 400+. Anyone can win at any time. That's why Messiah (1) is out, North Central (6), F&M (7), Emory (T14) and Kenyon (16) are all out from the final Top 16 ranking. That's almost 1/3 (5/16). You can say, well, the seedings were wrong and they lost to good teams, but for the highly ranked teams that dropped, W&L (RV), Washington College (RV), Ohio Northern (RV), Occidental (RV), and UWEC, or 5/16 of the remainder, were outside the Top 25. UWEC wasn't even in the RV category.

To get to the Sweet 16, W&L had to beat SUNY Oneonta (18), Washington College (Otterbein T24, Kenyon 16), ONU (Lynchburg 22, Messiah 1), Occidental (Trinity TX 20), UWEC (North Central T9, UW-P 19). Everyone one of these teams had to beat at least one team ranked ahead of them.

Did the voters do a bad job? Did the committees do a bad job? No.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. For the most part, the difference between the top 5-7 schools is negligible. You can put them in order, but it's really who started faster, who had the blemish longest ago, or who has the most impressive victory. None of which are actually good measures of anything. The difference between 7 and 15 is essentially irrelevant. The difference between 10 and 25 is razor thin. The difference between 15 and 35 is basically squat. And somewhere from 25-50 is pretty much splitting hairs. Yes the groups overlap, and yes they should.

For all of us who have participated in these polls, we know anywhere you put teams in these groupings is essentially equal, you are just finding some way to justify them with a number, and rarely is that justification based on anything truly relevant.

So yeah, 2 very good teams played today in a hard fought game that sends one home. It's going to happen tomorrow a lot. Because within these final 16 teams, there isn't much difference. Some will play well, some may not. It may look like a big difference on the day, or it may look like the Chicago - Calvin razor thin match. But if you played these 8 games 10x, they would probably average out to mostly close games and probably a whole lot of overall close records.

There just isn't that much difference anywhere in the bunch.

So according to the voters, who has the easiest game in this round and who has the hardest?

Calvin (T9), Chicago (15)
St Olaf (12), UW-EC (None)
ONU (RV), CC (14)
Tufts (8), W&L (RV)

MW (2), WC (RV)
Montclair (7), Conn (5)
Amherst (3), Oxy (RV)
Cortland (6), Middlebury (4)

Well the biggest chalk should be Mary Washington or Amherst. For me, the toughest draw was not Calvin/Chicago, it's Cortland/Middlebury, followed by Montclair/Conn. The Calvin/Chicago game would have been the third most unfair out of the 8 games.

Overall, looking at the pods, the Amherst pod is by far the most brutal. Cortland/Middlebury is, in a 4 team pod, a 1 vs 1.5. That whole pod has a .75, a 1, a 1.5 and an Unranked. That's a savage pod. Not far behind is Mary Washington, with a .5, a 1.25, a 1.75, and an Unranked.

The easiest pod overall is Tufts'. That pod has a 2, a 3.5, and two Unranked. That actually leaves the Calvin, Chicago pod as second easiest, a 2.25, a 3.75, a 3, and an Unranked.

I especially agree with the bolded above. 

I should have just said I think Calvin and Chicago are really, really good.

This will sound very contradictory and probably is....I am probably someone who had Chicago at #15 or even lower as they picked up some blemishes.  That doesn't mean I think they were only the 15th (or worse) team in terms of chances to get to the F4 or win a title. 

Speaking of tough deals, I would put Babson vs JHU in 1st round and Conn vs F&M in 2nd round up there pretty high. 

Will be curious to see what the comments are after tomorrow and Sunday.

When you reach the knockout stage of a tournament, got to be ready for who is on the other side and remember that the ranking systems are very far from perfect.

My WI Eau-Claire v St. Olaf Game Notes... and yes, I do think it was a foul throw. (https://www.patreon.com/posts/game-notes-wi-v-93075700?utm_medium=clipboard_copy&utm_source=copyLink&utm_campaign=postshare_creator&utm_content=join_link)

United Soccer Coaches College Rankings are an indicator of week-to-week status of qualified programs and in no way should be used as a guide or indicator of eligibility for championship selection.

The Coaches College Rankings is a poor predictor of a team's quality. They even say so (see above)

One thing to remember about the NCAA tournament, like the Olympics, is that it isn't actually designed to crown the best team in the country.  It crowns the winner of the tournament, but the tournament is subject to a universality rule that gives every conference an automatic qualifier, which means it includes some teams that don't "deserve" to be there and excludes some that do.  That's just the way it is.  It's not completely random, but it isn't completely merit-based either.

Watched the second half of both games today, so observations are based purely on what I saw.  Chicago/Calvin looked to me to be about as even as it could get and was a good quality 45 minutes and then Operating Thetan time, to watch.  I couldn't really separate them and whilst penalty kicks are, as earlier described, a "brutal" way of arriving at a winner, I feel either side could have justifiably progressed.

Given how good St Olaf looked from the commencement of the second half against the BluGolds, up until the time they scored, I was surprised that the score had in fact been 2-2.  However, after they went 3-2 up, whilst I wouldn't exactly say they relaxed, perhaps they just lost a bit of their desire and they gave UWEC a way back in.  The one thing I had noted about UWEC's record this year was that they scored goals and whilst they didn't always come against top ranked opposition, they still scored them, so it wasn't a complete surprise they managed to make it 3-3.  A nice set play saw St Olaf finish winners in normal time, on balance, more obvious than the other game's outcome.  Worth noting too, the Oles have an Australian player, albeit from the other side of Sydney from downtown Enmore.

Not sure if anyone else is likely to mention this, but apparently St Olaf is the patron saint of not just Norway and the Faroe Islands, but also of carvers and difficult marriages.

On balance, I just favour Chicago in the quarter final, but of course, it's based off a terribly limited sample size.  But, I just wonder if St Olaf has the full 90 minute (and potentially plus) intensity in its locker to get past a team that appears to have re-discovered its mojo (if it in fact had actually lost it) at the right time of the season.

Glad to see St Olaf through to the next round.  Having seen Eau Claire play in person I am not a fan of their style of play.   Gaining 10-15 yards on throw ins (repeatedly) is not in the spirit of the game (this isnt just a team issue as refs repeatedly allow it to happen)  I think a point of emphasis needs to be made regarding throw ins.   Not just location but I have seen a trend towards illegal throw ins as players/teams have concentrated more on long throw ins (essentially throwing in with one hand). 

Mary Washington vs. Washington College provides an interesting history lesson.  UMW is named after Mary Ball Washington, George Washington's mother.  Washington College is named after George Washington, who served on its Board of Visitors and supported the college financially.

No comments on any of the games??

W&L Tufts 0-0 at halftime

Quote from: Another Mom on November 18, 2023, 11:50:45 AM
No comments on any of the games??

W&L Tufts 0-0 at halftime

I'm still trying to get that announcer's voice out of my head.

Amherst and Oxy scoreless. Lots of fouls and bodies on the ground.

One observation about W&L vs. Tufts:  When these two programs played for the first time in 2019, it was very much David vs. Goliath.  Tufts was the storied program with all the accolades and the defending Champs.   W&L had some players, but had never seen themselves as a national contender before.  W&L went up 1-0 at the half on a shot that will always be one of my favorite goals ever, and suddenly, they believed.  Haven't really looked back since.  A #1 ranking for most the season, a win over the vaunted Messiah in the tournament, and a final four appearance in 2021, followed by their third Sweet Sixteen appearance in a row this year, the attitude of the entire W&L program is so much different coming into today's meeting against Tufts.  W&L feels like equals, not upstarts, and you can see that confidence on the field.

Quote from: FBALLISLIFE on November 18, 2023, 11:53:31 AM

Quote from: Another Mom on November 18, 2023, 11:50:45 AM
No comments on any of the games??

W&L Tufts 0-0 at halftime

I'm still trying to get that announcer's voice out of my head.

amen!

Quote from: FBALLISLIFE on November 18, 2023, 12:04:21 PM


One observation about W&L vs. Tufts:  When these two programs played for the first time in 2019, it was very much David vs. Goliath.  Tufts was the storied program with all the accolades and the defending Champs.   W&L had some players, but had never seen themselves as a national contender before.  W&L went up 1-0 at the half on a shot that will always be one of my favorite goals ever, and suddenly, they believed.  Haven't really looked back since.  A #1 ranking for most the season, a win over the vaunted Messiah in the tournament, and a final four appearance in 2011, followed by their third Sweet Sixteen appearance in a row this year, the attitude of the entire W&L program is so much different coming into today's meeting against Tufts.  W&L feels like equals, not upstarts, and you can see that confidence on the field.

Right on cue... Matteo Adler with the goal for W&L, and they take the lead 1-0 in Medford.

Phenomenal no call by the ref at the end of the Tufts-WL game.   Tufts wanted a penalty and he sold it well, but on the replay he wasn't even touched.   

1 NESCAC down, 3 to go

Quote from: stlawus on November 18, 2023, 12:54:35 PM
Phenomenal no call by the ref at the end of the Tufts-WL game.   Tufts wanted a penalty and he sold it well, but on the replay he wasn't even touched.

Referee was working all day to not call pens for either team, but that was a tough choice, especially in front of the home crowd.  Looking forward to watching that again on replay.

PTBAG

FEAR THE GOOSE!

Quote from: paclassic89 on November 18, 2023, 12:55:41 PM
1 NESCAC down, 3 to go

that's the spirit.....

Would definitely have been a penalty if he made contact but he went right under him, at least that's what I saw.  I used the frame by frame function, so it looked pretty clear to me. 

And here I was telling all the W&L parents that the d3 boards gave us a 5% chance of winning . . .

Quote from: Freddyfud on November 18, 2023, 01:02:28 PM
FEAR THE GOOSE!

Hahaha, It is a Maryland team!!  Just quality.

Quote from: stlawus on November 18, 2023, 01:03:24 PM
Would definitely have been a penalty if he made contact but he went right under him, at least that's what I saw.  I used the frame by frame function, so it looked pretty clear to me.

Interesting. I'm at Bello, although I was about 75 yards away from the play, and without the benefit of replay, it certainly looked like a PK to me. Based on your description, well done by the ref.

Enmore Litten with the header goal. 1-0 Amherst with 4 min left in OT

Apparently you're now allowed to bear hug the guy marking you in the box?  That CB had the Oxy defender wrapped in both arms on that header.

Quote from: stlawus on November 18, 2023, 01:25:42 PM
Apparently you're now allowed to bear hug the guy marking you in the box?  That CB had the Oxy defender wrapped in both arms on that header.

Yep.

Amherst 1 Occidental 0

One of the Amherst Ultras described today's weather in Western MA as, "balmy", but I didn't see many in attendance who weren't dressed warmly.  The curator had done some wonderful work and TBTTIHF looked an absolute picture and of course, provided a super surface for a sweet sixteen epic.  Occidental didn't just bring a big support, they brought noise (oh those vuvezelas – they ruined a world cup in South Africa) and most importantly a very good team.  The Tigers play with serious confidence and their keeper naturally drops the ball at his defender's feet and they do their stuff.  I was curious how that would hold up in the face of what can be a rugged Mammoths press, but for much of the first half, it wasn't quite as co-ordinated as I have seen it and Oxxy was able to bring the ball out without too much trouble.  That didn't translate into many chances, but there was one very good save by the Amherst keeper and also one from the Tiger's.  Net net, at half time, I would have thought the Oxxy coach would have been the happier as they had largely handled what the Mammoths had thrown at them.  From an Amherst perspective, the positive was that it was a clean sheet (that's a central defender's dad talking) and that the team could play better.  There were a couple of penalty claims from Amherst for which I couldn't make an obvious case for, but it was just a reminder that the Mammoths have a number of players who are difficult to contain in the box.

That felt more relevant as Amherst started the second half with a more active press and more energy in general, but without an end product.  Occidental then proceeded to get back into the game and had a run of at least three consecutive corners, but the Mammoths defence held up pretty well and whilst there were nervous moments, that's all they were.  Towards the end, Amherst had a couple of gilt-edged chances after some good quality set up play, but sadly, they weren't converted.  With the game going into Operating Thetan time, there was always that fear that maybe those might come back to haunt.

Operating Thetan time seemed to pass very quickly and I was already mentally preparing myself for a penalty shoot out.  For those wondering what that involves, it's basically me hiding under a blanket and hoping for the best.  Fortunately, with just four minutes to go in the second half of Operating Thetan time, the Amherst captain, keen to prolong his career for another day, found sufficient energy in his leg to propel a free kick to the other side of the penalty area.  It's well documented that Amherst uses set pieces, EnmoreKitten was given something to work with and arrowed a header back in adjacent to the right hand post.  I woke up most of downtown (and probably uptown) Enmore with my shriek of delight.  Cue absolute mayhem and with a couple of minutes to see out, Amherst eventually moved on to the elite eight.

On balance, albeit one with a purple heart still pumping hard, I think Amherst deserved the win, but it must be said that Occidental  were excellent and their travelling band of supporters should feel justifiably proud of how the team played today.  I don't think I have seen too many teams, NESCAC or otherwise, prepared to play the ball out from so deeply and whilst there are invariably some hairy moments attached to that, once past the first line, there was space to work with.  The Tigers didn't seem to be phased by much at all and are a credit to all associated with them.

It goes without saying that my theme of Amherst "Efficiency" continues on and a sixth 1-0 win and a fifth clean sheet in seven tells you how difficult the white shirts are to beat.  At this stage of the season, aesthetics do go out of the window to a degree and it becomes about finding a way to win.  Whatever comes next, it's one step further than last year, with the door open for more, but irrespective, this correspondent is very proud of what this group of young men has achieved.

All week I have been trying to work out how to put a reference from Kim Wilde's "Kids In America" into this summary, but of course, "East California" is a long way away from Occidental.  I will keep working on it...

Foul Count: Amherst 13 Occidental 14

The announcer for the Conn v. Montclair game is a good 2 seconds ahead of play - makes for a tough watch. I assume this was also the case for the UMW/Washington match?

Well I said heading in to the tournament W&L got a good draw with their home pod. I also said they hadn't beaten a solid top 25 team all season. Now they've beaten 2 in a row in regular time. This is Tufts 4th home loss since the start of the 2017 season. Any win on their turf is an excellent win. And can I just say it feels really good to eliminate a NESCAC team after being knocked out by NESCAC teams 2 of the last 3 tournaments?

The three tournament matchups are W&L's only 3 games against NESCAC opponents, not overly surprising as W&L was mostly absent from the national scene, except for a Sweet Sixteen appearance in 2000, until Coach Singleton arrived. So I guess it's nice to break that ice as well, as shallow as it might be.

Congratulations Generals. I'll be driving tomorrow, but you better believe I'll be keeping an eye on the game. Probably make my wife drive that part of the trip!

Quote from: dacac on November 18, 2023, 03:07:13 PM
The announcer for the Conn v. Montclair game is a good 2 seconds ahead of play - makes for a tough watch. I assume this was also the case for the UMW/Washington match?

Yes.  But the sun was also higher so no glare like in this match.

Didn't bother Lukovic though just now.

Quote from: dacac on November 18, 2023, 03:07:13 PM
The announcer for the Conn v. Montclair game is a good 2 seconds ahead of play - makes for a tough watch. I assume this was also the case for the UMW/Washington match?

Yes, same for earlier match. Was/is very discombobulating. Plus the prismatic camera. I hate watching games from UMW.

Quote from: stlawus on November 18, 2023, 12:54:35 PM
Phenomenal no call by the ref at the end of the Tufts-WL game.   Tufts wanted a penalty and he sold it well, but on the replay he wasn't even touched.

Please get your eyes checked. I am not sure what game you were watching but that penalty was clear as day. I saw it live on the stream and rewatched it multiple times. He gets zero ball, if he had gotten any of the ball it would have changed direction. His cleat does not go under 11's leg, it goes right into him.

https://tuftsjumbocast.com/. Minute 3:17 of the game or 1:45:15 of youtube video, if you want to see it yourself.

Thanks @jknezek!!

Btw Tufts #4 is a heck of a defender.

Middlebury rallies from an early two-goal deficit to beat Cortland, 4-2.

Two teams that know each other very well will face off tomorrow in an All-NESCAC Elite Eight matchup.

Quote from: flyingdutchman on November 18, 2023, 03:55:35 PM

Quote from: stlawus on November 18, 2023, 12:54:35 PM
Phenomenal no call by the ref at the end of the Tufts-WL game.   Tufts wanted a penalty and he sold it well, but on the replay he wasn't even touched.

Please get your eyes checked. I am not sure what game you were watching but that penalty was clear as day. I saw it live on the stream and rewatched it multiple times. He gets zero ball, if he had gotten any of the ball it would have changed direction. His cleat does not go under 11's leg, it goes right into him.

https://tuftsjumbocast.com/. Minute 3:17 of the game or 1:45:15 of youtube video, if you want to see it yourself.

I watched it more than a dozen times on YouTube but just can't get a clear frame of the defender touching the offensive player.

I definitely don't see him getting the front foot, it's very clear between 145:19-20 that the front foot is up and over the defender. There was no chance for contact on the front foot.

In that same time period the ball is past the defender's foot, so it's also clear to me he doesn't get the ball as I agree the trajectory doesn't change. I did get a frame on a lucky pause where the foot looks like it hits the ball, but the camera angle would lead to that conclusion as well, as would the Ref's positioning looking straight down the line at ball and defender's foot, so you'd have to go by trajectory from the angle and by how quick the ref makes the signal, I don't think he looked at where the ball went.

I can't tell if the defender touched the offensive player's back foot or not. There was no lucky pause that showed me that split second. A little before, a little after, nothing spot on despite multiple attempts. But the fall, which is essentially a face plant, is exactly what I'd expect to see if the back foot is touched while the body continues on. No coincidentally, it's also how I would sell a dive as an offensive player on that play.

Heck of a call not to make at that point in the game, heck of a call to make at that point of the game. If you aren't sure, you don't call it. It's also worth noting the assistant ref also makes no move with his flag like he's intending to call a foul. It stays completely down and he just continues on running with the ball as it is cleared. To be fair, the ref made the no-call motion really fast, so maybe the assistant would have had more reaction given a bit more time, but the ref was very definitive very quickly.

I'm not sure I'd describe a penalty as "clear as day", but even as a W&L fan, I'd say the video evidence points to the Generals getting a favorable call. On the balance, not touching the ball is kind of a key factor, even if I'm not positive there was player to player contact, though I'd say the evidence favors it.

Again, I suspect from the position of the ref, and the camera, with foot coming straight at the ball, it may have looked like the defender got it and the ref made his decision based on an angle that was imperfect.

Tough call in a split second.

Silvester saves 2 more in PK's - Conn through

Quote from: jknezek on November 18, 2023, 04:33:56 PM

Quote from: flyingdutchman on November 18, 2023, 03:55:35 PM

Quote from: stlawus on November 18, 2023, 12:54:35 PM
Phenomenal no call by the ref at the end of the Tufts-WL game.   Tufts wanted a penalty and he sold it well, but on the replay he wasn't even touched.

Please get your eyes checked. I am not sure what game you were watching but that penalty was clear as day. I saw it live on the stream and rewatched it multiple times. He gets zero ball, if he had gotten any of the ball it would have changed direction. His cleat does not go under 11's leg, it goes right into him.

https://tuftsjumbocast.com/. Minute 3:17 of the game or 1:45:15 of youtube video, if you want to see it yourself.

I watched it more than a dozen times on YouTube but just can't get a clear frame of the defender touching the offensive player.

I definitely don't see him getting the front foot, it's very clear between 145:19-20 that the front foot is up and over the defender. There was no chance for contact on the front foot.

In that same time period the ball is past the defender's foot, so it's also clear to me he doesn't get the ball as I agree the trajectory doesn't change. I did get a frame on a lucky pause where the foot looks like it hits the ball, but the camera angle would lead to that conclusion as well, as would the Ref's positioning looking straight down the line at ball and defender's foot, so you'd have to go by trajectory from the angle and by how quick the ref makes the signal, I don't think he looked at where the ball went.

I can't tell if the defender touched the offensive player's back foot or not. There was no lucky pause that showed me that split second. A little before, a little after, nothing spot on despite multiple attempts. But the fall, which is essentially a face plant, is exactly what I'd expect to see if the back foot is touched while the body continues on. No coincidentally, it's also how I would sell a dive as an offensive player on that play.

Heck of a call not to make at that point in the game, heck of a call to make at that point of the game. If you aren't sure, you don't call it. It's also worth noting the assistant ref also makes no move with his flag like he's intending to call a foul. It stays completely down and he just continues on running with the ball as it is cleared. To be fair, the ref made the no-call motion really fast, so maybe the assistant would have had more reaction given a bit more time, but the ref was very definitive very quickly.

I'm not sure I'd describe a penalty as "clear as day", but even as a W&L fan, I'd say the video evidence points to the Generals getting a favorable call. On the balance, not touching the ball is kind of a key factor, even if I'm not positive there was player to player contact, though I'd say the evidence favors it.

Again, I suspect from the position of the ref, and the camera, with foot coming straight at the ball, it may have looked like the defender got it and the ref made his decision based on an angle that was imperfect.

Tough call in a split second.

I appreciate the fair analysis and I will try to respond in kind. I think the penalty incident could have either way as could have the goal that tufts scored that was called for being over the end line. Two 50/50 calls going against you sucks but ultimately that's not what decides games. I thought W&L were excellent and look a significantly improved team from when I watched them at Swarthmore a few years ago. It wouldn't surprise me at all to see them go all the way and I'd certainly prefer that to any of the NESCAC teams winning it.

I think Tufts and Dez made a key step forward this year. I think the team really came together the second half of the year and ran off a good stretch of results. Only a small class of guys is leaving, and I'm glad that guys like Trainor, Shin and Visnick got a national title before leaving campus. I know it's not the theme of this thread but I think Tufts team will be much stronger next year and hopefully the senior class can get it done. I know this sucks, but spend this weekend with your teammates and see them through this and then the work starts Monday.

I said 2-3 weeks ago that at least one team among W&L, Kenyon, and St Olaf would make the Final Four....big teams that had poor or slow starts to the season.  One is in...another may get in tomorrow.

Congrats to St Olaf and W&L today.

Can't imagine the mixed emotions for Travis Wall....but I'm sure he's very happy for his former players and his former asst coach.

Congrats to Midd for storming back.

Random take for the day....Reuben Burk is an incredible coach.

Quote from: Another Mom on November 18, 2023, 01:06:35 PM
And here I was telling all the W&L parents that the d3 boards gave us a 5% chance of winning . . .

Congrats, Another Mom.

Please go knock on the "only regionally relevant thread" and let the other sequestered W&L fans know it is safe to come out and enter the primary ballroom with heads held high.

Quote from: flyingdutchman on November 18, 2023, 03:55:35 PM

Quote from: stlawus on November 18, 2023, 12:54:35 PM
Phenomenal no call by the ref at the end of the Tufts-WL game.   Tufts wanted a penalty and he sold it well, but on the replay he wasn't even touched.

Please get your eyes checked. I am not sure what game you were watching but that penalty was clear as day. I saw it live on the stream and rewatched it multiple times. He gets zero ball, if he had gotten any of the ball it would have changed direction. His cleat does not go under 11's leg, it goes right into him.

https://tuftsjumbocast.com/. Minute 3:17 of the game or 1:45:15 of youtube video, if you want to see it yourself.

Watched it again, don't know what alternate reality you're living in.  His cleat only got the ground on the follow through. He didn't get anything, ball or player, just tackled the air.  The frame by frame replay of this confirms it.   I know the NESCAC is always the victims in these games, but that was a superb no call by the ref. Not surprised he immediately waved it off as he had the full "open look" as they say in ref world.

Quote from: d4_Pace on November 18, 2023, 04:48:03 PM

Quote from: jknezek on November 18, 2023, 04:33:56 PM

Quote from: flyingdutchman on November 18, 2023, 03:55:35 PM

Quote from: stlawus on November 18, 2023, 12:54:35 PM
Phenomenal no call by the ref at the end of the Tufts-WL game.   Tufts wanted a penalty and he sold it well, but on the replay he wasn't even touched.

Please get your eyes checked. I am not sure what game you were watching but that penalty was clear as day. I saw it live on the stream and rewatched it multiple times. He gets zero ball, if he had gotten any of the ball it would have changed direction. His cleat does not go under 11's leg, it goes right into him.

https://tuftsjumbocast.com/. Minute 3:17 of the game or 1:45:15 of youtube video, if you want to see it yourself.

I watched it more than a dozen times on YouTube but just can't get a clear frame of the defender touching the offensive player.

I definitely don't see him getting the front foot, it's very clear between 145:19-20 that the front foot is up and over the defender. There was no chance for contact on the front foot.

In that same time period the ball is past the defender's foot, so it's also clear to me he doesn't get the ball as I agree the trajectory doesn't change. I did get a frame on a lucky pause where the foot looks like it hits the ball, but the camera angle would lead to that conclusion as well, as would the Ref's positioning looking straight down the line at ball and defender's foot, so you'd have to go by trajectory from the angle and by how quick the ref makes the signal, I don't think he looked at where the ball went.

I can't tell if the defender touched the offensive player's back foot or not. There was no lucky pause that showed me that split second. A little before, a little after, nothing spot on despite multiple attempts. But the fall, which is essentially a face plant, is exactly what I'd expect to see if the back foot is touched while the body continues on. No coincidentally, it's also how I would sell a dive as an offensive player on that play.

Heck of a call not to make at that point in the game, heck of a call to make at that point of the game. If you aren't sure, you don't call it. It's also worth noting the assistant ref also makes no move with his flag like he's intending to call a foul. It stays completely down and he just continues on running with the ball as it is cleared. To be fair, the ref made the no-call motion really fast, so maybe the assistant would have had more reaction given a bit more time, but the ref was very definitive very quickly.

I'm not sure I'd describe a penalty as "clear as day", but even as a W&L fan, I'd say the video evidence points to the Generals getting a favorable call. On the balance, not touching the ball is kind of a key factor, even if I'm not positive there was player to player contact, though I'd say the evidence favors it.

Again, I suspect from the position of the ref, and the camera, with foot coming straight at the ball, it may have looked like the defender got it and the ref made his decision based on an angle that was imperfect.

Tough call in a split second.

I appreciate the fair analysis and I will try to respond in kind. I think the penalty incident could have either way as could have the goal that tufts scored that was called for being over the end line.

Speaking as a disinterested observer who was at the game because I live in Medford, you and jknezek are right.  Contrary to others' assertions, it simply is not clear, one way or the other.  I have a screen grab on my computer screen right now (which I would post but it exceeds the max file size), and it's just not sharp enough to tell.  My personal opinion, if I base it solely on watching the video, is that it is more likely than not that Trainor was fouled; but the ref was a lot closer to the play than the cameraman, so I'm inclined to give his call some deference.

Congratulations to Coach Dunshee and the Shoremen for reaching their first Elite 8.  Wasn't able to watch the whole game but caught the end when they were soaking wave after wave of Eagle attacks.  Goalkeeper Anthony Pinto had 11 saves and believe the announcer mentioned that was a career high for the senior.  What a time to step up!

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 18, 2023, 05:10:53 PM

Quote from: Another Mom on November 18, 2023, 01:06:35 PM
And here I was telling all the W&L parents that the d3 boards gave us a 5% chance of winning . . .

Congrats, Another Mom.

Please go knock on the "only regionally relevant thread" and let the other sequestered W&L fans know it is safe to come out and enter the primary ballroom with heads held high.

Hahaha. It is a long season!  Some great games left!

Quote from: flyingdutchman on November 18, 2023, 03:55:35 PM

Quote from: stlawus on November 18, 2023, 12:54:35 PM
Phenomenal no call by the ref at the end of the Tufts-WL game.   Tufts wanted a penalty and he sold it well, but on the replay he wasn't even touched.

Please get your eyes checked. I am not sure what game you were watching but that penalty was clear as day. I saw it live on the stream and rewatched it multiple times. He gets zero ball, if he had gotten any of the ball it would have changed direction. His cleat does not go under 11's leg, it goes right into him.

https://tuftsjumbocast.com/. Minute 3:17 of the game or 1:45:15 of youtube video, if you want to see it yourself.

Wow, I just went back and watched it again frame by frame, fully expecting to see a foul.  The W&L defender did not appear to get the ball at all, but then also did not appear to touch the Tufts attacker either.  Referee was right there on the spot, and although I disagreed in real time, I have to say, I think he got it right.  Good sell by the Tufts attacker.  Even better on the referee.  But wow, you can't put yourself in that position if you are the W&L defender.

Quote from: FBALLISLIFE on November 18, 2023, 06:49:57 PM

Quote from: flyingdutchman on November 18, 2023, 03:55:35 PM

Quote from: stlawus on November 18, 2023, 12:54:35 PM
Phenomenal no call by the ref at the end of the Tufts-WL game.   Tufts wanted a penalty and he sold it well, but on the replay he wasn't even touched.

Please get your eyes checked. I am not sure what game you were watching but that penalty was clear as day. I saw it live on the stream and rewatched it multiple times. He gets zero ball, if he had gotten any of the ball it would have changed direction. His cleat does not go under 11's leg, it goes right into him.

https://tuftsjumbocast.com/. Minute 3:17 of the game or 1:45:15 of youtube video, if you want to see it yourself.

Wow, I just went back and watched it again frame by frame, fully expecting to see a foul.  The W&L defender did not appear to get the ball at all, but then also did not appear to touch the Tufts attacker either.  Referee was right there on the spot, and although I disagreed in real time, I have to say, I think he got it right.  Good sell by the Tufts attacker.  Even better on the referee.  But wow, you can't put yourself in that position if you are the W&L defender.

Wow - think there is some anti NESCAC bias here...the defender clearly makes an awkward challenge with his left foot coming in off the ground, never makes contact with the ball. They tufts player gets his back foot clipped when he is already  by the defender.   There is absolutely nothing in the Tufts player movement to indicate anything other than his progress was impeded by the late challenge.  PK should have been awarded.  I was 25 yards away and you could hear boot on boot.

Congrats to W&L on a victory and best of luck to them tomorrow but they got away with one there.

Random note #456....

To underscore how PKs are a different beast....

Consider that Oscar Horwitz (F&M), Chris Schau (Calvin), and Amer Lukovic (Montclair) all missed their PKs...

There's an added pressure to being counted on as the guy who absolutely will be an absolute lock to make with the dread of what it will be like to miss as the guy who absolutely won't miss.  All three of the above misses were critical.

Btw, I didn't re-watch the Tufts play several times but watching live I was struck by two simultaneous thoughts...it looked like the Tufts player doing a quick acceleration speed rush into the box was perhaps hunting for some entanglement and indeed appeared to have been successful, but then secondly what stood out the very most on video is how swiftly the referee gave the safe signal as he was peering into the play head-on from not that far away.  The referee appeared to be in an ideal position to see the play and make a call and he did so about as confidently and definitively as you'll ever see...which of course doesn't necessarily mean he made the right call.  There was another play a few minutes before that the announcers commented on and on that one noted that Traynor had not protested the call very much.  I think that was where the ball supposedly went out of bounds before a little cross through the box with a goal.

Congrats Another Mom! you have some real big talents.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 18, 2023, 08:09:58 PM
Random note #456....

To underscore how PKs are a different beast....

Consider that Oscar Horwitz (F&M), Chris Schau (Calvin), and Amer Lukovic (Montclair) all missed their PKs...

There's an added pressure to being counted on as the guy who absolutely will be an absolute lock to make with the dread of what it will be like to miss as the guy who absolutely won't miss.  All three of the above misses were critical.

Btw, I didn't re-watch the Tufts play several times but watching live I was struck by two simultaneous thoughts...it looked like the Tufts player doing a quick acceleration speed rush into the box was perhaps hunting for some entanglement and indeed appeared to have been successful, but then secondly what stood out the very most on video is how swiftly the referee gave the safe signal as he was peering into the play head-on from not that far away.  The referee appeared to be in an ideal position to see the play and make a call and he did so about as confidently and definitively as you'll ever see...which of course doesn't necessarily mean he made the right call.  There was another play a few minutes before that the announcers commented on and on that one noted that Traynor had not protested the call very much.  I think that was where the ball supposedly went out of bounds before a little cross through the box with a goal.

Actually although the ref is pretty close to the play there is another defender in his way of the actual contact....on video you can see he clipped his back foot.

It was actually not even the first one he missed. Earlier in the half he called a foul against #19 where the defender has both legs in the box and awarded Tufts a free kick outside the box.

Quote from: jknezek on November 18, 2023, 04:33:56 PM

Quote from: flyingdutchman on November 18, 2023, 03:55:35 PM

Quote from: stlawus on November 18, 2023, 12:54:35 PM
Phenomenal no call by the ref at the end of the Tufts-WL game.   Tufts wanted a penalty and he sold it well, but on the replay he wasn't even touched.

Please get your eyes checked. I am not sure what game you were watching but that penalty was clear as day. I saw it live on the stream and rewatched it multiple times. He gets zero ball, if he had gotten any of the ball it would have changed direction. His cleat does not go under 11's leg, it goes right into him.

https://tuftsjumbocast.com/. Minute 3:17 of the game or 1:45:15 of youtube video, if you want to see it yourself.

I watched it more than a dozen times on YouTube but just can't get a clear frame of the defender touching the offensive player.

I definitely don't see him getting the front foot, it's very clear between 145:19-20 that the front foot is up and over the defender. There was no chance for contact on the front foot.

In that same time period the ball is past the defender's foot, so it's also clear to me he doesn't get the ball as I agree the trajectory doesn't change. I did get a frame on a lucky pause where the foot looks like it hits the ball, but the camera angle would lead to that conclusion as well, as would the Ref's positioning looking straight down the line at ball and defender's foot, so you'd have to go by trajectory from the angle and by how quick the ref makes the signal, I don't think he looked at where the ball went.

I can't tell if the defender touched the offensive player's back foot or not. There was no lucky pause that showed me that split second. A little before, a little after, nothing spot on despite multiple attempts. But the fall, which is essentially a face plant, is exactly what I'd expect to see if the back foot is touched while the body continues on. No coincidentally, it's also how I would sell a dive as an offensive player on that play.

Heck of a call not to make at that point in the game, heck of a call to make at that point of the game. If you aren't sure, you don't call it. It's also worth noting the assistant ref also makes no move with his flag like he's intending to call a foul. It stays completely down and he just continues on running with the ball as it is cleared. To be fair, the ref made the no-call motion really fast, so maybe the assistant would have had more reaction given a bit more time, but the ref was very definitive very quickly.

I'm not sure I'd describe a penalty as "clear as day", but even as a W&L fan, I'd say the video evidence points to the Generals getting a favorable call. On the balance, not touching the ball is kind of a key factor, even if I'm not positive there was player to player contact, though I'd say the evidence favors it.

Again, I suspect from the position of the ref, and the camera, with foot coming straight at the ball, it may have looked like the defender got it and the ref made his decision based on an angle that was imperfect.

Tough call in a split second.

There is a lot a one camera coverage  don't see.

Congrats to the Pintos of Washington College, they both play for our summer team MOTOWN.

No disrespect here, but if you like Tufts then you're probably a die hard Duke basketball fan.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 18, 2023, 08:09:58 PM
Random note #456....

To underscore how PKs are a different beast....

Consider that Oscar Horwitz (F&M), Chris Schau (Calvin), and Amer Lukovic (Montclair) all missed their PKs...

There's an added pressure to being counted on as the guy who absolutely will be an absolute lock to make with the dread of what it will be like to miss as the guy who absolutely won't miss.  All three of the above misses were critical.

Btw, I didn't re-watch the Tufts play several times but watching live I was struck by two simultaneous thoughts...it looked like the Tufts player doing a quick acceleration speed rush into the box was perhaps hunting for some entanglement and indeed appeared to have been successful, but then secondly what stood out the very most on video is how swiftly the referee gave the safe signal as he was peering into the play head-on from not that far away.  The referee appeared to be in an ideal position to see the play and make a call and he did so about as confidently and definitively as you'll ever see...which of course doesn't necessarily mean he made the right call.  There was another play a few minutes before that the announcers commented on and on that one noted that Traynor had not protested the call very much.  I think that was where the ball supposedly went out of bounds before a little cross through the box with a goal.

Just a quick correction, Oscar Horowitz did not miss or did not have his pk saved. It was another taker in the 7th round who had his pk saved. Oscar took the 5th pk.  He was 2-2 in the regular season.

Thanks for the correction....I knew I had read it somewhere, though.

From Conn Coll recap...
In penalty kicks, both teams were perfect through six rounds, as the teams headed to round seven all square. In round seven Oscar Horwitz went low to the right, but Silvester read it all the way, coming up with a huge stop, setting the stage for Creus. Creus stepped up to the spot, placing the ball in the left corner to send the Camels through.

Btw, pretty sure it's Horwitz, not Horowitz.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 18, 2023, 10:16:41 PM
Thanks for the correction....I knew I had read it somewhere, though.

From Conn Coll recap...
In penalty kicks, both teams were perfect through six rounds, as the teams headed to round seven all square. In round seven Oscar Horwitz went low to the right, but Silvester read it all the way, coming up with a huge stop, setting the stage for Creus. Creus stepped up to the spot, placing the ball in the left corner to send the Camels through.

Btw, pretty sure it's Horwitz, not Horowitz.

Yup, you are correct as to Horwitz. But the guy writing the recap is a dope. If he was following (or looked at the box score), he would have seen that it was not Oscar.  Further, why would their best goal scorer take the 7th pk??  Wouldn't expect the person to know that. Anyway. The kick was not to particularly far to the right, but well within CC's keeper's reach.  Good save, but not particularly difficult.

Quote from: Dustin_Patrón on November 18, 2023, 09:57:02 PM
No disrespect here, but if you like Tufts then you're probably a die hard Duke basketball fan.

This is hilarious....and as a diehard UK bball fan and diehard Kenyon soccer fan, I approve this message.

Middlebury 4 Cortland St. 2.

The Red Dragons came out on the front foot and were all over the Panthers early on.  Cade Denlinger got the Red Dragons on the board in the 26th minute when he picked up a loose ball and curled the ball into the far corner from the top of the 18.  Cortland doubled the lead six minutes later when the Panthers got whistled for a foul near the touchline.  Denlinger whipped in an inswinger that found its way into the far post after several players lunged at the ball.  From there, it seemed like a long day was in store for Midd supporters.  Things began to turn three minutes later as Saint-Louis found Nicholl near the edge of the area.  Nicholl was dispossessed, but Colin Dugan won the ball back immediately and set up Kyle Nilsson in front to make it 2-1.  The Panthers tied it with less than a minute left in the half.  Saint-Louis struck a free kick right on goal, and the Red Dragon keeper spilled a rebound, which Nilsson poked home for his second of the game to tie it up.  The Panthers were applying pressure for much of the second half, and it finally paid off when Eujin Chae whipped in a cross that Gavin Randolph redirected in with a glancing header at 69:33.  With 3:30 left, Cortland lofted a free kick into the far post, but Grady made a kick save to repel the threat.  Midd iced it on a counter in the last few seconds with Nichol winning a big tackle and the ball rebounded to Saint-Louis, who set up Sawin for the tap in with 2 seconds left.

Impressive start by Cortland, but they were undone by defensive lapses.  Midd kept attacking relentlessly and were rewarded for their perseverance.  Excellent game off the bench for first year Mailk Samms for Midd.  Panthers and Mammoths tomorrow for a spot in the final 4.

All this PK talk reminds me of Kramer and the magic loogie.  It's like the referee was Newman.  "Back...and to the left..."

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 18, 2023, 10:36:44 PM

Quote from: Dustin_Patrón on November 18, 2023, 09:57:02 PM
No disrespect here, but if you like Tufts then you're probably a die hard Duke basketball fan.

This is hilarious....and as a diehard UK bball fan and diehard Kenyon soccer fan, I approve this message.

And, as an alum of IU in the days of the late Bob Knight, I root for Indiana and whoever plays Duke, Kentucky (sorry PN), and North Carolina. Not to mention Tufts, in soccer. :-)

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 18, 2023, 05:10:53 PM

Quote from: Another Mom on November 18, 2023, 01:06:35 PM
And here I was telling all the W&L parents that the d3 boards gave us a 5% chance of winning . . .

Congrats, Another Mom.

Please go knock on the "only regionally relevant thread" and let the other sequestered W&L fans know it is safe to come out and enter the primary ballroom with heads held high.

Is this an implicit invitation to post a review of the Colorado College-Ohio Northern game in this thread rather than the Go WEST thread?  I don't want to sully the discussion of the frame-by-frame Zapruder film analysis of a foul/non-foul in the Tufts v. Washington & Lee thread with a mention of the OTHER game that took place in Medford, MA today  ;)

Colorado College 1 - Ohio Northern 0

As I wrote in my preview of this matchup, these were two evenly matched teams and the stats were pretty even across the board.  They tied 1-1 in the first game and they tied 0-0 for almost 97 minutes of this game until Teddy Libby picked an opportune time to score his first goal of the season. Curtis Hale's assist on that goal kind of exemplified the difference between playing hopeful kickball and really using the long ball to bypass a line and play a teammate in behind the defense to open up a scoring opportunity.  It was the definition of "dropping a dime." 

Also, special mention for Colorado College GK Jasper Broad.  He is listed as 5'11", which is short for GK standards (and may be even a generous listing), but he really shows how a shorter than average GK can play bigger than a tall GK.  Some GKs are great shot stoppers because of their reaction time.  That's usually just instinctive, although the best ones anticipate where the ball is going based on the body position of the shooter etc.  But playing big is coming off your line quickly, jumping at the right time and without a shred of indecision etc.  He really has all that and he is a big reason Colorado College is in the Elite 8 for the second time in their history.  They have a good defense, but not so much that the GK looks better than he is because the defenders keep him clean (which still might be attributable to the GK if he talks a lot and does a good job of organizing the defense).  Broad routinely makes plays to save the team and he has done it against Emory and Ohio Northern.

In any event, in another one of my "small-world" posts that probably only interest me, Hale, a junior who was first team All-SCAC and SCAC Defender of the Years, is from Richmond, VA where he went to St. Christopher's School.  On Washington & Lee's roster, defender Willy Hall, a sophomore who was second-team All-ODAC, is from Richmond, VA where he went to St. Christopher's School.  Unlike the Occidental-Amherst connection, I don't know anything more than that, but I think they played together on the St. Christopher's team and now they will be reuniting on Tufts soccer field.

Quote from: EnmoreCat on November 18, 2023, 02:19:51 PM
Amherst 1 Occidental 0

One of the Amherst Ultras described today's weather in Western MA as, "balmy", but I didn't see many in attendance who weren't dressed warmly.  The curator had done some wonderful work and TBTTIHF looked an absolute picture and of course, provided a super surface for a sweet sixteen epic.  Occidental didn't just bring a big support, they brought noise (oh those vuvezelas – they ruined a world cup in South Africa) and most importantly a very good team.  The Tigers play with serious confidence and their keeper naturally drops the ball at his defender's feet and they do their stuff.  I was curious how that would hold up in the face of what can be a rugged Mammoths press, but for much of the first half, it wasn't quite as co-ordinated as I have seen it and Oxxy was able to bring the ball out without too much trouble.  That didn't translate into many chances, but there was one very good save by the Amherst keeper and also one from the Tiger's.  Net net, at half time, I would have thought the Oxxy coach would have been the happier as they had largely handled what the Mammoths had thrown at them.  From an Amherst perspective, the positive was that it was a clean sheet (that's a central defender's dad talking) and that the team could play better.  There were a couple of penalty claims from Amherst for which I couldn't make an obvious case for, but it was just a reminder that the Mammoths have a number of players who are difficult to contain in the box.

That felt more relevant as Amherst started the second half with a more active press and more energy in general, but without an end product.  Occidental then proceeded to get back into the game and had a run of at least three consecutive corners, but the Mammoths defence held up pretty well and whilst there were nervous moments, that's all they were.  Towards the end, Amherst had a couple of gilt-edged chances after some good quality set up play, but sadly, they weren't converted.  With the game going into Operating Thetan time, there was always that fear that maybe those might come back to haunt.

Operating Thetan time seemed to pass very quickly and I was already mentally preparing myself for a penalty shoot out.  For those wondering what that involves, it's basically me hiding under a blanket and hoping for the best.  Fortunately, with just four minutes to go in the second half of Operating Thetan time, the Amherst captain, keen to prolong his career for another day, found sufficient energy in his leg to propel a free kick to the other side of the penalty area.  It's well documented that Amherst uses set pieces, EnmoreKitten was given something to work with and arrowed a header back in adjacent to the right hand post.  I woke up most of downtown (and probably uptown) Enmore with my shriek of delight.  Cue absolute mayhem and with a couple of minutes to see out, Amherst eventually moved on to the elite eight.

On balance, albeit one with a purple heart still pumping hard, I think Amherst deserved the win, but it must be said that Occidental  were excellent and their travelling band of supporters should feel justifiably proud of how the team played today.  I don't think I have seen too many teams, NESCAC or otherwise, prepared to play the ball out from so deeply and whilst there are invariably some hairy moments attached to that, once past the first line, there was space to work with.  The Tigers didn't seem to be phased by much at all and are a credit to all associated with them.

It goes without saying that my theme of Amherst "Efficiency" continues on and a sixth 1-0 win and a fifth clean sheet in seven tells you how difficult the white shirts are to beat.  At this stage of the season, aesthetics do go out of the window to a degree and it becomes about finding a way to win.  Whatever comes next, it's one step further than last year, with the door open for more, but irrespective, this correspondent is very proud of what this group of young men has achieved.

All week I have been trying to work out how to put a reference from Kim Wilde's "Kids In America" into this summary, but of course, "East California" is a long way away from Occidental.  I will keep working on it...

Foul Count: Amherst 13 Occidental 14

This is a very fair, even generous, description of the game, so I won't add much.  My preview said it would be an uphill climb for Oxy just based on the travel, the venue, and the time difference.  Losing on a late goal in 2OT could arguably be viewed as just a reflection of the accumulated weight of all of that more than obvious superiority of one team over another.  One bit of context for your remark that you were impressed that Occidental played out of the back against Amherst's press is that in Region X most good teams play out of the back.  Frankly, that's how most of the kids out west and in Texas grew up playing.  There are certainly kickball teams and youth clubs, but the stronger teams that produce college level soccer players play out of the back.  The weather helps with that because no one, at least in Socal, is playing very many games on fields with long, over-watered, grass. 

On the Oxy supporters, this was just a small taste of what their games are like with drums, vuvuzelas, cowbells, chanting etc for the whole game.  But instead of with a small hardy crew able to travel to Amherst, MA, imagine it with 2000 fans (not all with the noisemakers, of course, but they add to the noise level in their own way).  I've spoken with several coaches at multiple SCIAC schools and they all shake their head and admit they hate it, which means it's probably really effective.  I will say the atmosphere probably makes it more fun for students, which may be part of the reason they get more students to come to their games than most other schools.  I spoke to a SCIAC coach today who said what a lot of your post acknowledges - Oxy's performance helps to better establish the legitimacy of play in the SCIAC, at least beyond CMS and Redlands, so that is the victory that the team can bring home.

Can anyone make this make senss from the Cortland recap?

Here's recap headline...

#6 Cortland Ties for 9th After Setback Against #3 Middlebury in NCAA 3rd Round


And then text from the recap...

AMHERST, MASS. -- The nationally third-ranked Middlebury men's soccer team scored four unanswered goals spanning the first and second halves in earning a come-from-behind 4-2 win against sixth-ranked Cortland Saturday afternoon in the third round of the NCAA Div. III playoffs hosted by Amherst College. The Red Dragons concluded the season with a 16-3-3 record and tied for ninth nationally. The Panthers improved to 15-1-4.


On what basis is there a conclusion that Cortland finishes in 9th place?  Reached their own conclusion that they are the highest ranked team not to make the Elite 8 so that somehow by definition makes them 9th?  I realize the coach poll does operate kind of like this, but I'm not sure how Cortland could already know or predict an exact placement in a final, final poll.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2023, 08:56:57 AM

Can anyone make this make senss from the Cortland recap?

Here's recap headline...

#6 Cortland Ties for 9th After Setback Against #3 Middlebury in NCAA 3rd Round


And then text from the recap...

AMHERST, MASS. -- The nationally third-ranked Middlebury men's soccer team scored four unanswered goals spanning the first and second halves in earning a come-from-behind 4-2 win against sixth-ranked Cortland Saturday afternoon in the third round of the NCAA Div. III playoffs hosted by Amherst College. The Red Dragons concluded the season with a 16-3-3 record and tied for ninth nationally. The Panthers improved to 15-1-4.


On what basis is there a conclusion that Cortland finishes in 9th place?  Reached their own conclusion that they are the highest ranked team not to make the Elite 8 so that somehow by definition makes them 9th?  I realize the coach poll does operate kind of like this, but I'm not sure how Cortland could already know or predict an exact placement in a final, final poll.

I think their argument is that 8 teams advanced to the Elite Eight, so they are tied (with 8 other Sweet 16 losers) for 9th place.  It's not a polling issue, nor were they saying they were the best of the Sweet 16 losers.

Quote from: FBALLISLIFE on November 19, 2023, 09:00:59 AM

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2023, 08:56:57 AM

Can anyone make this make senss from the Cortland recap?

Here's recap headline...

#6 Cortland Ties for 9th After Setback Against #3 Middlebury in NCAA 3rd Round


And then text from the recap...

AMHERST, MASS. -- The nationally third-ranked Middlebury men's soccer team scored four unanswered goals spanning the first and second halves in earning a come-from-behind 4-2 win against sixth-ranked Cortland Saturday afternoon in the third round of the NCAA Div. III playoffs hosted by Amherst College. The Red Dragons concluded the season with a 16-3-3 record and tied for ninth nationally. The Panthers improved to 15-1-4.


On what basis is there a conclusion that Cortland finishes in 9th place?  Reached their own conclusion that they are the highest ranked team not to make the Elite 8 so that somehow by definition makes them 9th?  I realize the coach poll does operate kind of like this, but I'm not sure how Cortland could already know or predict an exact placement in a final, final poll.

I think their argument is that 8 teams advanced to the Elite Eight, so they are tied (with 8 other Sweet 16 losers) for 9th place.  It's not a polling issue, nor were they saying they were the best of the Sweet 16 losers.

That makes sense....just seems like a very odd construction and choice of headline.  An unofficial "we tied for 9th" with seven other teams?

Probably AI or a non athlete writing it.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2023, 09:09:19 AM

Quote from: FBALLISLIFE on November 19, 2023, 09:00:59 AM

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2023, 08:56:57 AM

Can anyone make this make senss from the Cortland recap?

Here's recap headline...

#6 Cortland Ties for 9th After Setback Against #3 Middlebury in NCAA 3rd Round


And then text from the recap...

AMHERST, MASS. -- The nationally third-ranked Middlebury men's soccer team scored four unanswered goals spanning the first and second halves in earning a come-from-behind 4-2 win against sixth-ranked Cortland Saturday afternoon in the third round of the NCAA Div. III playoffs hosted by Amherst College. The Red Dragons concluded the season with a 16-3-3 record and tied for ninth nationally. The Panthers improved to 15-1-4.


On what basis is there a conclusion that Cortland finishes in 9th place?  Reached their own conclusion that they are the highest ranked team not to make the Elite 8 so that somehow by definition makes them 9th?  I realize the coach poll does operate kind of like this, but I'm not sure how Cortland could already know or predict an exact placement in a final, final poll.

I think their argument is that 8 teams advanced to the Elite Eight, so they are tied (with 8 other Sweet 16 losers) for 9th place.  It's not a polling issue, nor were they saying they were the best of the Sweet 16 losers.

That makes sense....just seems like a very odd construction and choice of headline.  An unofficial "we tied for 9th" with seven other teams?

I have noticed Cortland write this way after a number of their other sports have been knocked out of the NCAA Tournament. They make the postseason in about a dozen sports per year so it happens quite a lot. It's a stylistic choice of their SID, who has been there for decades and is considered among the most respected folks in the industry.

So do they normally limit that to the Sweet 16 and later....or do they say tied (with 15 other teams) for #17 in the country if they lose in 2nd round?

Not criticizing, just haven't seen before.  And who's to say they aren't higher than #9?

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2023, 08:56:57 AM

Can anyone make this make senss from the Cortland recap?

Here's recap headline...

#6 Cortland Ties for 9th After Setback Against #3 Middlebury in NCAA 3rd Round


And then text from the recap...

AMHERST, MASS. -- The nationally third-ranked Middlebury men's soccer team scored four unanswered goals spanning the first and second halves in earning a come-from-behind 4-2 win against sixth-ranked Cortland Saturday afternoon in the third round of the NCAA Div. III playoffs hosted by Amherst College. The Red Dragons concluded the season with a 16-3-3 record and tied for ninth nationally. The Panthers improved to 15-1-4.


On what basis is there a conclusion that Cortland finishes in 9th place?  Reached their own conclusion that they are the highest ranked team not to make the Elite 8 so that somehow by definition makes them 9th?  I realize the coach poll does operate kind of like this, but I'm not sure how Cortland could already know or predict an exact placement in a final, final poll.

Clearly an AI write-up and headline . . .

At pasture number 2, Amherst takes a 1-0 lead at midway of the first half!

Quote from: camosfan on November 19, 2023, 01:28:12 PM
At pasture number 2, Amherst takes a 1-0 lead at midway of the first half!

And now very fortunate to continue to have 11 on the pitch, Madden with a second ill-timed tackle in a matter of 5 minutes and gets a talking to from the official. Having seen the tackle, it appeared to be one that would have warranted a yellow card based on previous decisions. Living on the edge a bit for the Panthers.

The Refs up at Middlebury are so incompetent, that these guys may tend to miscalculate.

Scpreless at the half for W&L CC. Both teams are gassed.

Quote from: Another Mom on November 19, 2023, 01:55:21 PM
Scpreless at the half for W&L CC. Both teams are gassed.

Hoping the wind and sun will aid W&L in the second half.  Although with the lightposts blocking the broadcast camera, I'm not sure we'd know.

Have not watched a broadcast for  sometime, thought they were suppose to use a boom on the camera to compensate for that.

Amherst #21 making offensive sexual gestures at the Midd parents. Watching this one in person and I've never seen anything like it.

Is that why they stopped play for the extensive discussion with administrative officials toward the end of the first half? No explanation was given on the NSN broadcast, though it sounded like the announcer was told, he uttered "Oh!" and then he said "we're gonna take a break," and turned the audio off.

Middlebury have looked tepid since going behind, very little indication that they will be able to pull something out of this one unless they increase the level substantially in the last 15 minutes.

Honk!  Another 1-0 shoutout by the Shoremen!

Edit:  what's with Mammoths grabbing their packages after winning?  Haven't seen that cele anywhere.

Amherst wins and now the players are getting into it with the Middebury fans.   Classy program.  It starts at the top

Quote from: Dustin_Patrón on November 19, 2023, 02:11:30 PM
Amherst #21 making offensive sexual gestures at the Midd parents. Watching this one in person and I've never seen anything like it.

You are telling the truth here, because I just saw an Amherst bench player do the exact same thing after the game ended.   

No surprise, but utterly classless display by Amherst as Nuhu, Kalinaskas, and a host of bench players who didn't step on the field taunt Middlebury fans and parents at the final whistle. The most grotesque display was by one of the unnamed bench players, who repeatedly grabbed his crotch and gestured toward the Middlebury fans.

As an administrator from Tufts told me a few weeks ago, "There is never any accountability for their behavior. Never."

Quote from: paclassic89 on November 19, 2023, 03:02:01 PM
Amherst wins and now the players are getting into it with the Middebury fans.   Classy program.  It starts at the top

Here at Hitchcock....I have to say what I have seen on the last 2 hours has been down right disgusting.

The Field is horrible, players slipping all over the place.

The Middlebury leaders completely lost their cool in the first half.  Both captains should have been red carded.  Madden with a card earning tackle middle of the first half when he was already on a card.  Then Grady-After making a game saving save on a PK (soft call) absolutely shove Amherst #7 in the back like a coward.  He completely lost his cool all first half.

Then the ref needs to stop the game for 2-3 minutes while Serpone is ranting and raving on the sideline in the refs face.  Give credit to Elias who seemed calm. Anyone on stream know what that was all about?

I thought the second half was actually quite good and credit the ref with changing the tone of the game because it was hard fought but little antics.

Then after the whistle, the Amherst players antics.  ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTING. Players should be suspended.  Sexual mimics to the opposing fans which I am sure include some parents.  DISGUSTING.

This is a great league but just went down is intolerable.

Just absolutely classless display of behavior after the Amherst game by several of the Amherst players.  Grabbing their crotches and taunting the Middlebury fans.  Serpone was complaining the whole game.  They do win a lot if you call that soccer (more like kicball) but I rather win with class and dignity and than display that kind of behavior.  Maybe the AD doesn't care but not a good look for the school.  If I was the coach, the team will be having a 7 AM workout and don't bring your cleats but your running shoes

In times like these I like to remind myself of a RBG quote.

"Real change, enduring change happens one step a a time"

It is so frustrating to continue to see the same teams play and conduct themselves way beyond the line of honorable/acceptable/sportsmanship etc. It starts at the top and it's clear several programs have a culture where anything goes.

Nothing I can do to change them but I have control of myself and influence on my circle. Hopefully in my lifetime I contribute where I can one step at a time. I appreciate watching the dialogue here while passionate...it's respectful. After all it's supposed to be the beautiful game

I've been observing this for at least a decade.  I've seen it with my own eyes on more than one occasion, yet for years no one believed me or thought these observations were exaggerated.  I was either a "hater" or a "sore loser".  I've seen my alma mater lose to a large variety of teams since my time as an undergrad in the early 2010s and not once, and I mean literally not a single time have I ever observed anything even a fraction of a fraction of a percent similar to what I've seen from Amherst.

Middlebury is not off the hook for their first half behavior on the field, but I've still never seen anything like it when it comes to Amherst and sideline/bench/spectator antics. 

This stuff is on camera, no hiding from it now. 

Quote from: kevdog on November 19, 2023, 03:15:32 PM
Just absolutely classless display of behavior after the Amherst game by several of the Amherst players.  Grabbing their crotches and taunting the Middlebury fans.  Serpone was complaining the whole game.  They do win a lot if you call that soccer (more like kicball) but I rather win with class and dignity and than display that kind of behavior.  Maybe the AD doesn't care but not a good look for the school.  If I was the coach, the team will be having a 7 AM workout and don't bring your cleats but your running shoes

I have seen refs give red cards after the game for antics like they did which means they were suspended for the next game.  The NCAA should look into it because that was just dispicable behavior on display. You won. No need for that type of behavior.

Unfortunately....EXACTLY what was to be expected.

The Amherst President and AD should be forced to watch the Amherst post-game celebrations and taunting via a 60 second video played on a loop for 48 hours. 

All those masters degrees earned in 2.5 hour seminars in the Bronze Room of the Holiday Inn Express in Belchertown were certainly more than worth the total cost of $250.  Dude just exudes integrity, class, and sportsmanship. 

And in 1...2....3....here come the justifications and rationalizations.

Disappointed for Midd...really hoped and thought they would get it done...but in between the lines Amherst was the better team today.

I can't believe that about 10 days ago I had never heard the name Chris Comber...otherwise known as the "2023 Nick Boardman."

Amherst fan here ...

Nice win over a great Middlebury team.   Seems like Amherst has really found its sea legs and is playing stifling, smothering defense on pretty much everyone they play.

Re the behavior, all of these posts are spot on. It is inexcusable behavior at any level.   I do not have the history that most of you do, but I will hope that Elliott will step in to put a stop to it.   Certainly seems like it is well past the time when it should have been stopped.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2023, 03:30:40 PM
Unfortunately....EXACTLY what was to be expected.

The Amherst President and AD should be forced to watch the Amherst post-game celebrations and taunting via a 60 second video played on a loop for 48 hours. 

All those masters degrees earned in 2.5 hour seminars in the Bronze Room of the Holiday Inn Express in Belchertown were certainly more than worth the total cost of $250.  Dude just exudes integrity, class, and sportsmanship. 

And in 1...2....3....here come the justifications and rationalizations.

Disappointed for Midd...really hoped and thought they would get it done...but in between the lines Amherst was the better team today.

I can't believe that about 10 days ago I had never heard the name Chris Comber...otherwise known as the "2023 Nick Boardman."

Welcome to the W&L bandwagon, PaulNewman.  Go Gennies.  Beat the Mammoths.

Very sorry to hear. Purposely avoided watching.  Guessing the game will be pulled down.

So is NESCAC now SCAC of the North? 

Feel good stories, Wash College and W&L in final four!! The Georges for the win!!

Didn't Amherst get into trouble a few years ago for their cross country team rating the freshman girls by their looks to see if they though they were easy to get? I thought I read an article that went national.  I mean the AD and President should do something becasue this not a good look for Amherst as whole.

Well, it seems obvious that the national final will be Washington College vs Washington & Lee, since this year, apparently the only way for a school named after a Washington to be eliminated from the tournament is to play another Washington.

Too bad WashU didn't qualify.

Quote from: FBALLISLIFE on November 19, 2023, 03:44:56 PM

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2023, 03:30:40 PM
Unfortunately....EXACTLY what was to be expected.

The Amherst President and AD should be forced to watch the Amherst post-game celebrations and taunting via a 60 second video played on a loop for 48 hours. 

All those masters degrees earned in 2.5 hour seminars in the Bronze Room of the Holiday Inn Express in Belchertown were certainly more than worth the total cost of $250.  Dude just exudes integrity, class, and sportsmanship. 

And in 1...2....3....here come the justifications and rationalizations.

Disappointed for Midd...really hoped and thought they would get it done...but in between the lines Amherst was the better team today.

I can't believe that about 10 days ago I had never heard the name Chris Comber...otherwise known as the "2023 Nick Boardman."

Welcome to the W&L bandwagon, PaulNewman.  Go Gennies.  Beat the Mammoths.

LOL.  Already purchased a bunch of W&L gear....along with orders from St Olaf and Washington College.  The irony is that the only shirts I have out of the four are...Amherst.

The matchup does pose a huge dilemma for diehard Amherst fan, Another Mom.

I like W&L's chances against Amherst.  Prior experience on the biggest of stages, riding ton of momentum and confidence, and a top-tier coach who should have a lot of ideas about how to deal with the Mammoths.

Is there anyway around the NESCAC paywall to view the atrocities?

I am screen recording these moments now. Will post a YouTube link

Yea I haven't refreshed the page so I could still screen record.  I just don't know NSN's rebroadcast rules as there is no TOS on the website. 

It is now Monday morning in Sydney and the board awaits Enmore's take on things! :)

Quote from: coach analytics on November 19, 2023, 03:10:48 PM

Quote from: paclassic89 on November 19, 2023, 03:02:01 PM
Amherst wins and now the players are getting into it with the Middebury fans.   Classy program.  It starts at the top

Here at Hitchcock....I have to say what I have seen on the last 2 hours has been down right disgusting.

The Field is horrible, players slipping all over the place.

The Middlebury leaders completely lost their cool in the first half.  Both captains should have been red carded.  Madden with a card earning tackle middle of the first half when he was already on a card.  Then Grady-After making a game saving save on a PK (soft call) absolutely shove Amherst #7 in the back like a coward.  He completely lost his cool all first half.

Then the ref needs to stop the game for 2-3 minutes while Serpone is ranting and raving on the sideline in the refs face.  Give credit to Elias who seemed calm. Anyone on stream know what that was all about?

I thought the second half was actually quite good and credit the ref with changing the tone of the game because it was hard fought but little antics.

Then after the whistle, the Amherst players antics.  ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTING. Players should be suspended.  Sexual mimics to the opposing fans which I am sure include some parents.  DISGUSTING.

This is a great league but just went down is intolerable.

I did not watch this game, but Coach Analytics's take seems to be reasonably balanced and objective.

I am both disappointed and infuriated by the descriptions of the Amherst players' behavior.  This does reflect poorly on the coach and the institution overall.

I don't pretend to know Amherst well, but my son was recruited by Serpone in his first year there...and I know several alums (including my sister-in-law).  Amherst strikes me as a funny place.  It attracts topnotch academically minded students, and it has been a leader in finding and bringing in DEI students from all over the country and all over the world.  Yet there is a bro culture that still seems to persist there among some of the seemingly entitled students.

I vaguely recall that Amherst banned fraternities a number of years ago, yet there were one or two "unofficial" off campus fraternity houses that continued to be a thorn in the college's side.  I think some aspects of that culture still permeate the community to some degree.  It's long past time when D3 schools should be moving beyond that kind of dated crap (IMO)...

Given the multiple attestations of this latest (of many) instance of deplorable behavior by Amherst's soccer players I once again call for the college to fire Serpone. (Like you, stlawus, I've been commenting on this for years. You're actually not alone.)

If I knew him (I don't), I'd call President Elliott's office and ask him to do the right thing.

I actually applauded when Indiana (from which I have a degree) fired Bob Knight--but way too many years after he punched a policeman in Puerto Rico, and that wasn't the stated reason when they finally did it. This isn't quite at that level, but it's bad enough to warrant Serpone's immediate dismissal. He either owns this or doesn't have control over his team. I suspect the former more than the latter, but either is enough to haul his butt out of his office.

Tomorrow wouldn't be soon enough.

Quote from: kevdog on November 19, 2023, 03:56:14 PM
Didn't Amherst get into trouble a few years ago for their cross country team rating the freshman girls by their looks to see if they though they were easy to get? I thought I read an article that went national.  I mean the AD and President should do something becasue this not a good look for Amherst as whole.

Hey a coach just lost his job for how his guys acted.

Ha ha PaulNewman, no divided loyalties. I saw no evidence of the kind of behavior described when my son was being recruited. If what you all say is true, and I have no reason to doubt so many respected posters, then I too would find it deplorable. In fact were I an Amherst parent I would 100% be emailing the AD and College president,  saying the team's behavior is a discredit to the school.

Once there's a youtube compilation, I think all posters who are outraged should email the AD and president. The school needs to kopw that this behavior is unacceptable. So, guys, there is actually something each of you can do. (Not just complain anonymously on the board).

As for W&L, I was pretty sure they wouldn't make the Sweet 16, let alone advance. Colorado College played a good game, and their parents were a classy and friendly bunch.

Quote from: GKForverr1 on November 19, 2023, 04:22:25 PM
I am screen recording these moments now. Will post a YouTube link

Thank you!

congrats Another Mom, have a safe trip home!

It will be interesting see if Serpone survives this. Oberlin dismissed the women's lacrosse coach, simply for stating the obvious: that men who transition to women have an unfair athletic advantage. I mean, like, duh. There just isn't any evidence to the contrary. If that gets you fired these days, and Serpone's antics don't, then what's the point of intercollegiate athletics? Certainly it can't be teaching young adults to stand for truth or moral excellence. Of course, this is all just small potatoes, in the much bigger conversation going on right now about certain ideas and attitudes being taught at so many "elite" universities. But, I do see a continuum. When Oberlin and Amherst were founded (not to mention most of the other places in the news right now), they each embraced a very specific agenda of spiritual and moral education alongside the liberal arts--indeed, to be frank, that was the whole point of a liberal arts education as far as they were concerned. Most colleges gave that up long ago, either around the end of the 19th century (when the German idea of the research university really took off in America) or during the Cold War (when many small religious colleges essentially abandoned that crucial piece of their identity). Now, quite literally, anything goes. When there are no rules, there are no rules.

For those who did not see the "celebration" yet....quality will improve once youtube fully uploads the file.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jg9YX_NSIFE

Quote from: camosfan on November 19, 2023, 04:49:12 PM
congrats Another Mom, have a safe trip home!

Thank you. Tufts played hard and well. You must be very proud of your son.

I just saw one bad apple on that youtube video, but maybe my eyes aren't that good . . .

My refresh button is getting a workout today! Thanks for the quality posts and history lessons - keeping me entertained, engaged during a very long drive through middle of nowhere. More please and thank you!

In the famous words of the noteworthy theologian, Gordon Ramsey, in every episode of Kitchen Nightmares....."SHUT IT DOWN! Now! SHUT IT DOWN!"

Quote from: Another Mom on November 19, 2023, 05:02:50 PM
I just saw one bad apple on that youtube video, but maybe my eyes aren't that good . . .

You missed Nuhu—yelling and waving? And Kalinauskus with the faux "well done" clap? And the 8-10 players with the taunting and waving? Again, none of this was a celebration with one's home fans, but taunts at Middlebury faithful, many of them parents.

I mean, if the line is drawn at crotch-grabbing and anything else is fair game, then I guess the bar is set as low as possible...

Quote from: Another Mom on November 19, 2023, 04:46:15 PM
Ha ha PaulNewman, no divided loyalties. I saw no evidence of the kind of behavior described when my son was being recruited. If what you all say is true, and I have no reason to doubt so many respected posters, then I too would find it deplorable. In fact were I an Amherst parent I would 100% be emailing the AD and College president,  saying the team's behavior is a discredit to the school.

Once there's a youtube compilation, I think all posters who are outraged should email the AD and president. The school needs to kopw that this behavior is unacceptable. So, guys, there is actually something each of you can do. (Not just complain anonymously on the board).

As for W&L, I was pretty sure they wouldn't make the Sweet 16, let alone advance. Colorado College played a good game, and their parents were a classy and friendly bunch.

Another Mom, congrats to the W&L team, your son, and to you as a dedicated and supportive parent.  Having gone on a journey (literally and figuratively) with my son's Bowdoin team to the Final Four in San Antonio in 2010, I can tell you that it is an experience to be savored...win or lose.

I also want to say that I've appreciated your posts...which have generally been thoughtful and reasonably objective.  Plus, I applaud you for fearlessly making your voice heard among a group of posters who I'm fairly certain are predominantly men.  Good luck to W&L in the Final Four!

Northman, aww thanks for your kind words.

As for the Amherst stuff, the waving etc is hard for someone not there to be sure of. Conceivably there could be another explanation, whereas the crotch grabbing is black and whote. And if the clapping is as ypu say, it does totally lack class, but I don't think rises to the level of anyone being willing to censure Serpone. Of course, maybe I'm wrong.

Quote from: Another Mom on November 19, 2023, 05:02:50 PM
I just saw one bad apple on that youtube video, but maybe my eyes aren't that good . . .

Didn't see Nuhu have to be physically restrained and redirected several times as he attempted to keep getting closer and going at the Midd fans?

The video doesn't include the Serpone sideline display that caused an 8-10 minute delay in the game.

This has been going on for well over a decade...at least 15 years...massive amounts of data and cross-confirmations from a very large and divergent group of people with numerous school affiliations have been presented over and over.  This isn't a close call.  The behavior is not an odd one-off...it's a feature of the program intentionally embedded within the program.  There aren't loose cannons within the program.  It's TAUGHT.  It seems highly, highly unlikely that a kid could play for Amherst and feel free to resist the cultish antics and demands of what it means to be a good teammate in that program.

The guy grabbing his crotch should be, at a minimum, not allowed to travel to NC.

As others have said, there is something going on at Amherst that isn't "normal." Even if the opposing fans were giving the players the business, it's a very strange reaction after punching a ticket to the F4 to go over, as a team, to the opposing fans like that. It's definitely a culture thing. Us vs. Everybody, chip on your shoulder, constantly chippy in your style. That's all fine... Until you channel that into highly inappropriate and unsportsmanlike behavior.

With all of that said... I know folks feel strongly on here, especially those that have noted this culture and its problematic (at times) results. But I don't see a coach getting fired for that display. First off, there's another side to this in terms of what was going on with those fans. This wasn't done in a vacuum, I'm sure. There's no excuse for it, but I'd appreciate hearing what sparked that stuff.

As one person who was at the game mentioned, Nuhu was making the same gesture in the first half.  As far as I could tell, none of the St. Thomas/TLU antics were off field/crowd related, yet both programs received a righteous amount of criticism for that game which also led to the dismissal of a head coach.  I'm not saying there needs to be a dismissal here, but this is in the broader context of the Serpone era.   I've seen SLU on the business end of very hostile crowds in losses, but I've never once seen a SLU player act that way after a game in response to fans even when it theoretically could have been justified.   This applies to most programs I've seen play.  What excuse does Amherst have?  And that's assuming anyone in the crowd did anything of equal measure.  Why is it through the hundreds of games I've watched for the past 13 years I've only ever seen one single team do this kind of stuff?  Again, this assumes anyone in the crowd did something equal, so why has no other program of note reacted to a crowd like that?

Quote from: Another Mom on November 19, 2023, 05:22:48 PM
Northman, aww thanks for your kind words.

As for the Amherst stuff, the waving etc is hard for someone not there to be sure of. Conceivably there could be another explanation, whereas the crotch grabbing is black and whote. And if the clapping is as ypu say, it does totally lack class, but I don't think rises to the level of anyone being willing to censure Serpone. Of course, maybe I'm wrong.

I've been there enough times to know exactly what was going on. Amherst did eventually go celebrate with their fans—who were way over on the opposite end of the field. There was no mistaking where each fan base was located. (And it was another poster, who was at the game, who noted at halftime that Nuhu had used the same gesture toward the Middlebury fan section earlier in the contest.)

And, fwiw, in all my posts I never called for Serpone to be censored (though I recognize others have); I was merely pointing out the utterly classless behavior of the players.

At some point, I'd love an explanation for the three-to-four minute stoppage of play toward the end of the first half, that included the center official confronting the Amherst bench and then huddling with on-site administrators for an extended period.

I am somewhat surprised at Amherst, quite a few of the guys at Tufts have friends, they have played with or against on other NESCAC teams and tend to show respect after games. Good teams are humble after victory in a good contest!

Quote from: Bucket on November 19, 2023, 05:32:50 PM

Quote from: Another Mom on November 19, 2023, 05:22:48 PM
Northman, aww thanks for your kind words.

As for the Amherst stuff, the waving etc is hard for someone not there to be sure of. Conceivably there could be another explanation, whereas the crotch grabbing is black and whote. And if the clapping is as ypu say, it does totally lack class, but I don't think rises to the level of anyone being willing to censure Serpone. Of course, maybe I'm wrong.

I've been there enough times to know exactly what was going on. Amherst did eventually go celebrate with their fans—who were way over on the opposite end of the field. There was no mistaking where each fan base was located. (And it was another poster, who was at the game, who noted at halftime that Nuhu had used the same gesture toward the Middlebury fan section earlier in the contest.)

And, fwiw, in all my posts I never called for Serpone to be censored (though I recognize others have); I was merely pointing out the utterly classless behavior of the players.

At some point, I'd love an explanation for the three-to-four minute stoppage of play toward the end of the first half, that included the center official confronting the Amherst bench and then huddling with on-site administrators for an extended period.

Watching the replay it looks like Serpone wanted a few foul calls in the lead up to that stoppage, and acted accordingly. 

Quote from: Bucket on November 19, 2023, 05:32:50 PM

Quote from: Another Mom on November 19, 2023, 05:22:48 PM
Northman, aww thanks for your kind words.

As for the Amherst stuff, the waving etc is hard for someone not there to be sure of. Conceivably there could be another explanation, whereas the crotch grabbing is black and whote. And if the clapping is as ypu say, it does totally lack class, but I don't think rises to the level of anyone being willing to censure Serpone. Of course, maybe I'm wrong.

I've been there enough times to know exactly what was going on. Amherst did eventually go celebrate with their fans—who were way over on the opposite end of the field. There was no mistaking where each fan base was located. (And it was another poster, who was at the game, who noted at halftime that Nuhu had used the same gesture toward the Middlebury fan section earlier in the contest.)

And, fwiw, in all my posts I never called for Serpone to be censored (though I recognize others have); I was merely pointing out the utterly classless behavior of the players.

At some point, I'd love an explanation for the three-to-four minute stoppage of play toward the end of the first half, that included the center official confronting the Amherst bench and then huddling with on-site administrators for an extended period.

if you've been there enough times then you most likely know the antics from the coaching staff that caused the stoppage....NCAA has advised referees to give cards to players for arguing - not sure how that hasn't translated

Agree it was classless. And I also wonder if what some posters have said about the team culture isn't spot on. My son played with Mo Nuhu on his high school and his club team. I've given Mo rides to games and practice, and he is a very good kid. Yes I did see him being redirected, and I would have said that behavior is out of character for him.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2023, 05:26:07 PM

Quote from: Another Mom on November 19, 2023, 05:02:50 PM
I just saw one bad apple on that youtube video, but maybe my eyes aren't that good . . .

Didn't see Nuhu have to be physically restrained and redirected several times as he attempted to keep getting closer and going at the Midd fans?

The video doesn't include the Serpone sideline display that caused an 8-10 minute delay in the game.

This has been going on for well over a decade...at least 15 years...massive amounts of data and cross-confirmations from a very large and divergent group of people with numerous school affiliations have been presented over and over.  This isn't a close call.  The behavior is not an odd one-off...it's a feature of the program intentionally embedded within the program.  There aren't loose cannons within the program.  It's TAUGHT.  It seems highly, highly unlikely that a kid could play for Amherst and feel free to resist the cultish antics and demands of what it means to be a good teammate in that program.

Ada Okorogheye is the exception to this—Super nice guy, all class, and universally admired by opposing players, coaches, and fan bases who have watched him through the years. He has always been removed from these post-game antics, on-field chippiness, everything.

Everyone else, though? I tend to agree with you. And it doesn't take long for this to take hold, given that the phenomenally talented Nuhu is a first year.

Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 19, 2023, 05:26:20 PM
The guy grabbing his crotch should be, at a minimum, not allowed to travel to NC.

As others have said, there is something going on at Amherst that isn't "normal." Even if the opposing fans were giving the players the business, it's a very strange reaction after punching a ticket to the F4 to go over, as a team, to the opposing fans like that. It's definitely a culture thing. Us vs. Everybody, chip on your shoulder, constantly chippy in your style. That's all fine... Until you channel that into highly inappropriate and unsportsmanlike behavior.

With all of that said... I know folks feel strongly on here, especially those that have noted this culture and its problematic (at times) results. But I don't see a coach getting fired for that display. First off, there's another side to this in terms of what was going on with those fans. This wasn't done in a vacuum, I'm sure. There's no excuse for it, but I'd appreciate hearing what sparked that stuff.

Agreed.  I don't there is any chance Serpone gets fired or even "a stern talking to"....as though he doesn't absorb and dismiss the latter multiple times a game.

And you're also right that they likely were responding to some stick from the Midd crowd.. But the risk with that is each and every instance gets explained away.  There's always an apologist at the ready to compartmentalize anything negative as aberration and collude with a narrative that Amherst actually holds the rightful grievance as the ultimate victim of unfair targeting.  Rapal was cited for his behavior in the 1st round match.

400+ programs....and we're supposed to believe that it's a total coincidence or unfair targeting that we're yet again talking about Amherst coach and player behavior.

Agree ,Ada is a nice person, I watch him absorbing the Tufts Alums antics at our games.

Quote from: Newenglander on November 19, 2023, 05:44:45 PM

Quote from: Bucket on November 19, 2023, 05:32:50 PM

Quote from: Another Mom on November 19, 2023, 05:22:48 PM
Northman, aww thanks for your kind words.

As for the Amherst stuff, the waving etc is hard for someone not there to be sure of. Conceivably there could be another explanation, whereas the crotch grabbing is black and whote. And if the clapping is as ypu say, it does totally lack class, but I don't think rises to the level of anyone being willing to censure Serpone. Of course, maybe I'm wrong.

I've been there enough times to know exactly what was going on. Amherst did eventually go celebrate with their fans—who were way over on the opposite end of the field. There was no mistaking where each fan base was located. (And it was another poster, who was at the game, who noted at halftime that Nuhu had used the same gesture toward the Middlebury fan section earlier in the contest.)

And, fwiw, in all my posts I never called for Serpone to be censored (though I recognize others have); I was merely pointing out the utterly classless behavior of the players.

At some point, I'd love an explanation for the three-to-four minute stoppage of play toward the end of the first half, that included the center official confronting the Amherst bench and then huddling with on-site administrators for an extended period.

if you've been there enough times then you most likely know the antics from the coaching staff that caused the stoppage.....

Oh, I totally have! But I've never seen such an extended discussion with on-site officials and, then, nothing—no cards, no explanation.

Quote from: stlawus on November 19, 2023, 05:27:59 PM
As one person who was at the game mentioned, Nuhu was making the same gesture in the first half.  As far as I could tell, none of the St. Thomas/TLU antics were off field/crowd related, yet both programs received a righteous amount of criticism for that game which also led to the dismissal of a head coach.  I'm not saying there needs to be a dismissal here, but this is in the broader context of the Serpone era.   I've seen SLU on the business end of very hostile crowds in losses, but I've never once seen a SLU player act that way after a game in response to fans even when it theoretically could have been justified.   This applies to most programs I've seen play.  What excuse does Amherst have?  And that's assuming anyone in the crowd did anything of equal measure.  Why is it through the hundreds of games I've watched for the past 13 years I've only ever seen one single team do this kind of stuff?  Again, this assumes anyone in the crowd did something equal, so why has no other program of note reacted to a crowd like that?

Yes to all of the above. 

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2023, 05:47:04 PM

Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 19, 2023, 05:26:20 PM
The guy grabbing his crotch should be, at a minimum, not allowed to travel to NC.

As others have said, there is something going on at Amherst that isn't "normal." Even if the opposing fans were giving the players the business, it's a very strange reaction after punching a ticket to the F4 to go over, as a team, to the opposing fans like that. It's definitely a culture thing. Us vs. Everybody, chip on your shoulder, constantly chippy in your style. That's all fine... Until you channel that into highly inappropriate and unsportsmanlike behavior.

With all of that said... I know folks feel strongly on here, especially those that have noted this culture and its problematic (at times) results. But I don't see a coach getting fired for that display. First off, there's another side to this in terms of what was going on with those fans. This wasn't done in a vacuum, I'm sure. There's no excuse for it, but I'd appreciate hearing what sparked that stuff.

Agreed.  I don't there is any chance Serpone gets fired or even "a stern talking to"....as though he doesn't absorb and dismiss the latter multiple times a game.

And you're also right that they likely were responding to some stick from the Midd crowd.. But the risk with that is each and every instance gets explained away.  There's always an apologist at the ready to compartmentalize anything negative as aberration and collude with a narrative that Amherst actually holds the rightful grievance as the ultimate victim of unfair targeting.  Rapal was cited for his behavior in the 1st round match.

400+ programs....and we're supposed to believe that it's a total coincidence or unfair targeting that we're yet again talking about Amherst coach and player behavior.

somebody had posted NCAA rules on straight reds for players abusing officials- not sure how this hasn't carried over to the sidelines

The same rules are supposed to apply to coaches.

Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 19, 2023, 05:26:20 PM
The guy grabbing his crotch should be, at a minimum, not allowed to travel to NC.

As others have said, there is something going on at Amherst that isn't "normal." Even if the opposing fans were giving the players the business, it's a very strange reaction after punching a ticket to the F4 to go over, as a team, to the opposing fans like that. It's definitely a culture thing. Us vs. Everybody, chip on your shoulder, constantly chippy in your style. That's all fine... Until you channel that into highly inappropriate and unsportsmanlike behavior.

With all of that said... I know folks feel strongly on here, especially those that have noted this culture and its problematic (at times) results. But I don't see a coach getting fired for that display. First off, there's another side to this in terms of what was going on with those fans. This wasn't done in a vacuum, I'm sure. There's no excuse for it, but I'd appreciate hearing what sparked that stuff.

I don't know who wants to do the research, but iirc the discussion after last year's Midd-Amh Elite 8 game was very, very similar.

After the last elite 8 game between the two teams in 2021, there was a brawl that was triggered by Hope Gund running at and taunting Saint-Louis, just as he had in the regular season game between the two.  Rapal then sprinted off the bench and punched Grady in the head.  I will echo the sentiments of others on the boards about Ada.  A thoroughly classy young man.  He and my son have enjoyed competing against each other and have nothing but respect for each other.  Nuhu was repeatedly engaged with the Midd fans throughout the game. 

I kept my trap shut at the time as to not wanting to bring up the discussion in a mid week game, but I saw extremely similar antics at the conclusion of the Amherst-Montclair State game.

Quote from: northman on November 19, 2023, 05:57:19 PM

Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 19, 2023, 05:26:20 PM
The guy grabbing his crotch should be, at a minimum, not allowed to travel to NC.

As others have said, there is something going on at Amherst that isn't "normal." Even if the opposing fans were giving the players the business, it's a very strange reaction after punching a ticket to the F4 to go over, as a team, to the opposing fans like that. It's definitely a culture thing. Us vs. Everybody, chip on your shoulder, constantly chippy in your style. That's all fine... Until you channel that into highly inappropriate and unsportsmanlike behavior.

With all of that said... I know folks feel strongly on here, especially those that have noted this culture and its problematic (at times) results. But I don't see a coach getting fired for that display. First off, there's another side to this in terms of what was going on with those fans. This wasn't done in a vacuum, I'm sure. There's no excuse for it, but I'd appreciate hearing what sparked that stuff.

Sorry, I guess I neglected to hit the send button.  My comment was that a head coach...and especially a head coach with 15+ years of experience...should be able to comport himself with some level of dignity and decorum.  It's OK to chat up the fourth official, and it's OK to express brief displays of frustration at on-field calls.  But to act out for multiple minutes and to allow your players to act out (if I'm to take the posts at face value) is above and beyond, and should be held to account in some way.

Quote from: College Soccer Observer on November 19, 2023, 06:04:42 PM
After the last elite 8 game between the two teams in 2021, there was a brawl that was triggered by Hope Gund running at and taunting Saint-Louis, just as he had in the regular season game between the two.  Rapal then sprinted off the bench and punched Grady in the head.  I will echo the sentiments of others on the boards about Ada.  A thoroughly classy young man.  He and my son have enjoyed competing against each other and have nothing but respect for each other.  Nuhu was repeatedly engaged with the Midd fans throughout the game.

Yes, sorry, 2021.

Quote from: stlawus on November 19, 2023, 06:04:58 PM
I kept my trap shut at the time as to not wanting to bring up the discussion in a mid week game, but I saw extremely similar antics at the conclusion of the Amherst-Montclair State game.

Same.

Quote from: Falconer on November 19, 2023, 04:33:53 PM
Given the multiple attestations of this latest (of many) instance of deplorable behavior by Amherst's soccer players I once again call for the college to fire Serpone. (Like you, stlawus, I've been commenting on this for years. You're actually not alone.)

If I knew him (I don't), I'd call President Elliott's office and ask him to do the right thing.

I actually applauded when Indiana (from which I have a degree) fired Bob Knight--but way too many years after he punched a policeman in Puerto Rico, and that wasn't the stated reason when they finally did it. This isn't quite at that level, but it's bad enough to warrant Serpone's immediate dismissal. He either owns this or doesn't have control over his team. I suspect the former more than the latter, but either is enough to haul his butt out of his office.

Tomorrow wouldn't be soon enough.

Agree with you about Bobby Knight that his antics towards his players and refs were out of line. On another note, his players graduated which is important. He once sat 2 of his starters for the entire game in the Sweet 16 of the NCAA tournament. When he was asked why during the after the game press conference, he simply said they skipped Chemistry class and they are student-athletes. Not the other way around. There have been numerous reports from players he coached that God help you if you don't go to class. Most of them said you will be running the stadium stairs until you puke.

On another note, I watched Messiah play against Ohio Northern and Messiah started to lose and lost the game, I did not see one player argue with the ref all game. Most of them shook the refs hand after the contest and was very gracious in defeat. This is a team that just lost their first game of the season and expectations just wiped out. That is classy bunch of kids and coaches. It is night and day compare to Amherst.

Last year Messiah lost in PKs against Williams, and it was actually astonishing seeing the way Messiah acted in defeat (in a positive sense).  All clapped for the Williams players and held their heads high despite an excruciating exit.

This may seem like a low bar, but given what we've seen it is to be commended.  Whenever I watch games I always make it a point to watch the handshake line.  You can learn a ton about a program's culture by observing something as simple as the handshake line and immediate post game interactions.   

I made the first post about the sexual gestures coming from Nuhu. This occurred in the first half during the 5-minute period when Serpone put the game on hold.. still not sure what he was so upset about. Nuhu makes the same gesture after the final whistle when he walks over to the Midd parents. I don't believe either of these instances were caught on the stream from what I've seen.  The gesture looked as if he was masterbating towards the Midd fans. This pains me to even type out, but I feel like people may be curious as the to specifics of the gesture.

Chirping and trash talk is a part of the game, but what I saw today at Amherst is simply unacceptable and needs to be reviewed by the NCAA or whoever can hold them accountable.

Amherst played a great game today against a strong Midd team and they're headed to the final 4 in the national tournament. Somehow though, I'm sitting here posting about an air jerk.

I'm gonna go pray for the moms, grandmas and sisters that came out to support Middlebury today.

This is all so self-defeating for Amherst, isn't it? Tragic in its own way. I know it's part of the self-created mystique, us vs. the world, but is that really best for these young men?

The Amherst defense today was exceptional. I can't recall one opportunity, not one, that Midd had to threaten the Mammoths. And coming in today, the Panthers were rolling offensively. Finding the back of the net once, twice, three times hadn't been an issue all tournament. But today, Amherst stifled any semblance of offensive threat by a very, very good Middlebury team.

Yet, all anyone is talking about—and rightfully so—is the classless and disgusting behavior of the winning team.

I will be cheering passionately for my alma mater, W&L, in two weeks time. But if Amherst were to win twice in Salem, will anyone remember that? Or will they remember bush-league, boorish behavior? A title may be gained, but at what cost?

Just saying that after Conn College beat F&M in PK's 2 rounds ago the entire Conn College team ran to the VERY FAR DIAGONAL END OF THE FIELD to taunt the F&M parents and students.   Shouting and Gesturing.  Running up to the fence line to really get in peoples faces.............. It lasted about 45 seconds until the coach came jogging over to put an end to it....It happens.  I don't think the coach was happy.   None of this reflected well on what is a good program.   

Quote from: D3Parent1 on November 19, 2023, 06:37:07 PM
Just saying that after Conn College beat F&M in PK's 2 rounds ago the entire Conn College team ran to the VERY FAR DIAGONAL END OF THE FIELD to taunt the F&M parents and students.   Shouting and Gesturing.  Running up to the fence line to really get in peoples faces.............. It lasted about 45 seconds until the coach came jogging over to put an end to it....It happens.  I don't think the coach was happy.   None of this reflected well on what is a good program.   

you said it all....they ran to the side of the field where the pks were taken (where Conn fans had moved as well because pks were there).... No obscene gestures... and if the coach was unhappy then that is the opposite of the situation that's in discussion. Before someone points it out - yes the assistant was shown a red for disagreeing with a call but it was dealt with immediately and nowhere near the the norm for that staff.

Quote from: D3Parent1 on November 19, 2023, 06:37:07 PM
Just saying that after Conn College beat F&M in PK's 2 rounds ago the entire Conn College team ran to the VERY FAR DIAGONAL END OF THE FIELD to taunt the F&M parents and students.   Shouting and Gesturing.  Running up to the fence line to really get in peoples faces.............. It lasted about 45 seconds until the coach came jogging over to put an end to it....It happens.  I don't think the coach was happy.   None of this reflected well on what is a good program.   

To attempt to put this into some kind of perspective...I was at a Bowdoin game earlier in the season.  I don't remember who the opponent was...but after a Bowdoin goal, the field players ran over to celebrate with the bench players.  After 15-20 seconds, head coach Wiercinski went over and wrestled some of the bench players away from the scrum.  He thought they were over celebrating and wanted to put an end to it.  This doesn't sound like Serpone's program, does it?

This is freakin' D3 after all.  This isn't the World Cup, and all of these student athletes are in school to be students before athletes...  Sheesh!

Quote from: D3Parent1 on November 19, 2023, 06:37:07 PM
Just saying that after Conn College beat F&M in PK's 2 rounds ago the entire Conn College team ran to the VERY FAR DIAGONAL END OF THE FIELD to taunt the F&M parents and students.   Shouting and Gesturing.  Running up to the fence line to really get in peoples faces.............. It lasted about 45 seconds until the coach came jogging over to put an end to it....It happens.  I don't think the coach was happy.   None of this reflected well on what is a good program.   

Yeah, happened in 2021 at F&M when Middlebury did the same. Celebrating in the front the home crowd. Overall, I'm all for enjoying winning a good game, but it's just ridiculous.  Even football players get penalized for poor sportsmanship.

Quote from: northman on November 19, 2023, 07:02:55 PM

Quote from: D3Parent1 on November 19, 2023, 06:37:07 PM
Just saying that after Conn College beat F&M in PK's 2 rounds ago the entire Conn College team ran to the VERY FAR DIAGONAL END OF THE FIELD to taunt the F&M parents and students.   Shouting and Gesturing.  Running up to the fence line to really get in peoples faces.............. It lasted about 45 seconds until the coach came jogging over to put an end to it....It happens.  I don't think the coach was happy.   None of this reflected well on what is a good program.   

To attempt to put this into some kind of perspective...I was at a Bowdoin game earlier in the season.  I don't remember who the opponent was...but after a Bowdoin goal, the field players ran over to celebrate with the bench players.  After 15-20 seconds, head coach Wiercinski went over and wrestled some of the bench players away from the scrum.  He thought they were over celebrating and wanted to put an end to it.  This doesn't sound like Serpone's program, does it?

that is more the norm from what I see- the coach or assistant go and break these things up

In brighter news, either St Olaf or Washington College will be in the national title game!  Congrats to both programs for making their very first Final Four.  Great to see some new blood, although envious on behalf of the great programs that keep knocking on the door to break through but have yet to do so (F&M, Kenyon, Montclair, Cortland, etc) and where the yearly pressure to do so no doubt becomes an added obstacle.

Also, congrats to Colorado College....tremendous run and should have great confidence going forward.

Quote from: northman on November 19, 2023, 07:04:58 PM
This is freakin' D3 after all.  This isn't the World Cup, and all of these student athletes are in school to be students before athletes...  Sheesh!

Exactly.

Another Ada anecdote. That regular season game at Midd two years ago, when Hope Gund ran at Jordan St. Louis, taunting him post whistle. Pushing and shoving ensued.

Ada walked away from the mess, shaking his head, and said something along the lines of: "This is NESCAC soccer, we're all the same. This is nonsense."

Quote from: stlawus on November 19, 2023, 06:04:58 PM
I kept my trap shut at the time as to not wanting to bring up the discussion in a mid week game, but I saw extremely similar antics at the conclusion of the Amherst-Montclair State game.

Fair comparison both classless teams.

Quote from: Newenglander on November 19, 2023, 06:57:46 PM

Quote from: D3Parent1 on November 19, 2023, 06:37:07 PM
Just saying that after Conn College beat F&M in PK's 2 rounds ago the entire Conn College team ran to the VERY FAR DIAGONAL END OF THE FIELD to taunt the F&M parents and students.   Shouting and Gesturing.  Running up to the fence line to really get in peoples faces.............. It lasted about 45 seconds until the coach came jogging over to put an end to it....It happens.  I don't think the coach was happy.   None of this reflected well on what is a good program.   

you said it all....they ran to the side of the field where the pks were taken (where Conn fans had moved as well because pks were there).... No obscene gestures... and if the coach was unhappy then that is the opposite of the situation that's in discussion. Before someone points it out - yes the assistant was shown a red for disagreeing with a call but it was dealt with immediately and nowhere near the the norm for that staff.

That is a huge leap.  The fans in that area were 99% F&M and the CT players were in their faces taunting them.   The CT goalie, who played awesome, sprinted over to taunt the F&M fans the moment CT won the PK's.   My point is that this happens, the desire to win is huge, but this was NOTHING like the Amherst team and this did not effect my respect for the CT team and it is not what I remember from that game....  I am thrilled that Wash Coll won today.

Well, then I am glad no W&L players taunted anyone after oir PKs.

The postgame interview with Coach Singleton, Will Joseph the W&L GK, and PJ Ryan one of the CBs and a captain.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4l9UhAurUy8&embeds_widget_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fgeneralssports.com%2Fnews%2F2023%2F11%2F19%2Fmens-soccer-joseph-stops-two-in-shootout-to-send-w-l-to-second-final-four-in-three-seasons.aspx%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR2D3G1xz5RZ-Njh9-kyC30zupD6IwJ_mVIfYjOl48-s9bQj3OrUW0ZkHTE&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fgeneralssports.com%2Fshowcase%2Fembed.aspx%3Ftitle%3DJoseph%2520stops%2520two%2520in%2520shootout%2520to%2520send%2520W%2526L%2520to%2520second%2520Fi&embeds_referring_origin=https%3A%2F%2Fgeneralssports.com&source_ve_path=OTY3MTQ&feature=emb_imp_woyt

Extremely inappropriate behavior from what I have seen and what has been discussed on this board. 

Unfortunately, these antics will continue while there is a win at all costs attitude or until appropriate measures are taken to punish such behavior (ie holding coaches accountable,, issuing appropriate sanctions/suspensions).   As far as the NCAA is concerned their reputation will not be ruined by this.  Had this been an elite 8 NCAA March Madness game there would be heads rolling by now.  Clips would be circulating; discussions would be taking place nationally.  As to Amherst this will not tarnish their reputation either as 99.9999% of the US population has no clue there was even a soccer game involving these two teams today 

That being said student athletes should be held to a certain standard.  As my son just finished a successful college career, I have been forced to reflect on what soccer meant to him and our family.

It has taught him time management, the rewards that come from working hard/dedicating yourself to a goal.  How to deal with adversity, how to lose with dignity and win with humility.   Life lessons that he will need to be a successful adult.

To our family it meant time spent together, traveling, seeing the country. 

It sounds to me that the Amherst players (not all but several) are missing out on these important values and only reinforcing the elitist mindset.   Their coach is doing them a disservice.  They can say they went to Amherst, played soccer and went to the final four but at what cost. 

Needless to say there are 3 teams I will be rooting for in a couple weeks.

Quote from: soccerpapa on November 19, 2023, 08:21:29 PM
Extremely inappropriate behavior from what I have seen and what has been discussed on this board. 

Unfortunately, these antics will continue while there is a win at all costs attitude or until appropriate measures are taken to punish such behavior (ie holding coaches accountable,, issuing appropriate sanctions/suspensions).   As far as the NCAA is concerned their reputation will not be ruined by this.  Had this been an elite 8 NCAA March Madness game there would be heads rolling by now.  Clips would be circulating; discussions would be taking place nationally.  As to Amherst this will not tarnish their reputation either as 99.9999% of the US population has no clue there was even a soccer game involving these two teams today 

That being said student athletes should be held to a certain standard.  As my son just finished a successful college career, I have been forced to reflect on what soccer meant to him and our family.

It has taught him time management, the rewards that come from working hard/dedicating yourself to a goal.  How to deal with adversity, how to lose with dignity and win with humility.   Life lessons that he will need to be a successful adult.

To our family it meant time spent together, traveling, seeing the country. 

It sounds to me that the Amherst players (not all but several) are missing out on these important values and only reinforcing the elitist mindset.   Their coach is doing them a disservice.  They can say they went to Amherst, played soccer and went to the final four but at what cost. 

Needless to say there are 3 teams I will be rooting for in a couple weeks.

+k....Imo very well said.

What really hit home was your March Madness example.  Imagine the winner (or loser) of UK-Duke in the Elite 8...and several players do what happened today.  You're right.  Would be first headline story on ESPN and other places and dominate the news cycle for at least 2-3 days...and major repercussions would be felt for quite a long time.  In the NBA that would be a 10 game suspension and huge fine.

If there is any fallout I wouldn't be surprised if Amherst hangs out to dry the one kid who on the video appears to be the most egregious and offensive.  Has he played in the past six weeks?  Pretty confident for a kid that didn't play to get that aggressive as a cheerleader.  In any case, his actions were consistent with and a function of the culture.  He's accountable of course, but he's by no means the root or source of the problem.

Will be interesting to see how an institution as prestigious and elite as Amherst handles this.

Quote from: soccerpapa on November 19, 2023, 08:21:29 PM
Extremely inappropriate behavior from what I have seen and what has been discussed on this board. 

Unfortunately, these antics will continue while there is a win at all costs attitude or until appropriate measures are taken to punish such behavior (ie holding coaches accountable,, issuing appropriate sanctions/suspensions).   As far as the NCAA is concerned their reputation will not be ruined by this.  Had this been an elite 8 NCAA March Madness game there would be heads rolling by now.  Clips would be circulating; discussions would be taking place nationally.  As to Amherst this will not tarnish their reputation either as 99.9999% of the US population has no clue there was even a soccer game involving these two teams today 

That being said student athletes should be held to a certain standard.  As my son just finished a successful college career, I have been forced to reflect on what soccer meant to him and our family.

It has taught him time management, the rewards that come from working hard/dedicating yourself to a goal.  How to deal with adversity, how to lose with dignity and win with humility.   Life lessons that he will need to be a successful adult.

To our family it meant time spent together, traveling, seeing the country. 

It sounds to me that the Amherst players (not all but several) are missing out on these important values and only reinforcing the elitist mindset.   Their coach is doing them a disservice.  They can say they went to Amherst, played soccer and went to the final four but at what cost. 

Needless to say there are 3 teams I will be rooting for in a couple weeks.

I could not agree more with this assessment.  Schools do not tolerate much these days, why tolerate this...It's kind of a form of bullying.  Why do we allow this? Unfortunately, it is leaking out to other programs in the NESCAC as well, from what I have seen and what some others have commented on (F&M game a couple years ago).

Teams are allowed to stand up along the sideline and intimidate refs and opposing players.

What are we teaching these student athletes?

Quote from: GKForverr1 on November 19, 2023, 04:58:00 PM
For those who did not see the "celebration" yet....quality will improve once youtube fully uploads the file.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jg9YX_NSIFE

That's nuts. And maybe melodramatic -

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,   
    Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
    If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
    With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,   
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,   
    And—which is more—you'll be a Man, my son!

We can't keep placing blame on Amherst/coaching and their culture without also placing some blame/responsibility on the parents of these kids.

Fwiw, I didn't have a big problem with the mock clapping.  I saw Conn at F&M and I didn't like that but I also didn't have a huge problem with it either.  I get that some fans and young alums can get brutal from the sidelines/crowd, so some reaction might be understandable.

What I think disappoints me the most is that after a game like that....and most of the games which were so good with so many going to OTs and PKs....is that the players first instinct after an initial celebration isn't automatically to go find the players on the other team and greet them, especially the ones you've played against for several years and perhaps have played against for the last time.  One would think there would be a modicum of respect for the high level of competition that you just participated in.

Quote from: soccerpapa on November 19, 2023, 08:21:29 PM
+k....Imo very well said.

What really hit home was your March Madness example.  Imagine the winner (or loser) of UK-Duke in the Elite 8...and several players do what happened today.  You're right.  Would be first headline story on ESPN and other places and dominate the news cycle for at least 2-3 days...and major repercussions would be felt for quite a long time.  In the NBA that would be a 10 game suspension and huge fine.

If there is any fallout I wouldn't be surprised if Amherst hangs out to dry the one kid who on the video appears to be the most egregious and offensive.  Has he played in the past six weeks?  Pretty confident for a kid that didn't play to get that aggressive as a cheerleader.  In any case, his actions were consistent with and a function of the culture.  He's accountable of course, but he's by no means the root or source of the problem.

Will be interesting to see how an institution as prestigious and elite as Amherst handles this.

Just reminded me of the Iowa-LSU bball game last year and Angel Reese's (Maryland transfer and from Bmore).  LSU played a great, great, great game to neutralize a very good Iowa team (who beat the odds on favor Univ of South Carolina). So what was talked about for weeks?? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqNExncGnc4 Forever, we'll think of what she did and not what great teams LSU and Iowa were.

What are we talking about now??  Amherst could have just waved goodbye and go shake hands. Also reminds me of the NCAA statement read by the announcer before each NCAA game.  From NESCAC site and most likely read out by the PA announcer -
https://nescac.com/sports/2020/7/14/about-Sportsmanship-Letter-091611.aspx?path=aboutnescac

Sportsmanship Statements

NESCAC SPORTSMANSHIP STATEMENT

The NESCAC and the NCAA promote good sportsmanship by student-athletes, coaches, and spectators. We request your cooperation by supporting the participants and officials in a positive manner. Profanity, racial, sexist, homophobic, or other derogatory comments, or other intimidating actions directed at officials, spectators, student-athletes, coaches or team representatives will not be tolerated and are grounds for removal from the site of competition. Also, the consumption of alcoholic beverages is prohibited at the site of competition.

(Emphasis added)

Sierra, I literally was going to post about Angel Reese.  Great example.  And I wouldn't go crazy if the players did that once or twice or did the "shush...quiet down" gesture.  But the genital gestures and aggressive moves like you're going over to physically engage and have to be held back are not OK imo.

Quote from: Another Mom on November 19, 2023, 08:16:55 PM
Well, then I am glad no W&L players taunted anyone after oir PKs.

The postgame interview with Coach Singleton, Will Joseph the W&L GK, and PJ Ryan one of the CBs and a captain.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4l9UhAurUy8&embeds_widget_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fgeneralssports.com%2Fnews%2F2023%2F11%2F19%2Fmens-soccer-joseph-stops-two-in-shootout-to-send-w-l-to-second-final-four-in-three-seasons.aspx%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR2D3G1xz5RZ-Njh9-kyC30zupD6IwJ_mVIfYjOl48-s9bQj3OrUW0ZkHTE&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fgeneralssports.com%2Fshowcase%2Fembed.aspx%3Ftitle%3DJoseph%2520stops%2520two%2520in%2520shootout%2520to%2520send%2520W%2526L%2520to%2520second%2520Fi&embeds_referring_origin=https%3A%2F%2Fgeneralssports.com&source_ve_path=OTY3MTQ&feature=emb_imp_woyt

Love this! Congrats to W&L - looking forward to match-up with Amherst. And also great interview with CC Coach Palguta, and players Burr and Ramirez that rolls out after the W&L video. They just lost the game but they couldn't be more gracious, grateful, and appreciative of the moment.

Former Amherst Soccer player weighing in here on my first ever D3 Soccer post (used to have a lot more to post about in the D3Hoops forums, but for obvious reasons, that flame has flickered out like the Encanto house and I am ready for the rebuild). Familiar with Bucket and a couple other names that are loyal to D3 athletics.

I have some answers to a few of the questions being tossed around on the boards:

Q: What happened in the 1H when Coach Serpone was upset with the officials and there was a prolonged stoppage?
A: One of Middlebury's players called Amherst's gay athlete the slur "fagg*t". As has been the case in the past, the most passionate version of Coach Serpone is when an opposing player uses hate speech directed towards one of his players. I don't remember what year or game, but ~5 years ago something similar happened in conference play with the n-word. The haters may say that this is a coaching tactic/antic to fire up his team... and they would be wrong. Coach Serpone has built an incredibly successful program that is built on love. The players love each other and the coach loves the players like his own children. Most of you are parents. If someone attacks your kid, you will probably be upset about it. Pretty sure the initiating slur also goes against that NESCAC sportsmanship statement.

Q: Why was the game chippy?
A: Because the NESCAC has become the overpowering force in D3 soccer for the past ~10 years after taking the torch from Messiah's epic run. Middlebury got one during Messiah's reign back in 2007 which started it, Amherst won one, Tufts was ridiculously good and impressive winning 4, and Conn took home a title. Williams and Bowdoin are perennially in the mix, and you can't sleep on Wesleyan or Trinity some years. 6 of the last 8 national champions are from the NESCAC and the last 3 runner-ups are also NESCAC. So when you get a NESCAC vs. NESCAC NCAA game, it may as well be the National Championship game, and all the players on both teams know this. Midd is always the most physical team in the league and it's not surprising their leaders committed hard fouls in the 1H. That works for them and I don't knock them for a second for their aggressive play. Let the referees handle the on-field action and hopefully no one gets hurt. But it is an absolute war for 90 minutes in an elimination game between conference opponents who both have what it takes to win it all. You go all out. The final whistle blows. You are happy to advance and send the other team home. I am sure all three of the remaining teams are amazing, but as a fan, I am relieved it is not a Midd->Tufts->Conn path. Had Midd won today, they would have to be favorites in Salem.

It sounds like Amherst was the better side today, stifling the Middlebury offense and winning 1-0 despite also not converting a PK. Soccer can be cruel, glad the better team won.

Post game activities
Appreciate the YouTube link! Three sections here:
1) In that video, you've got a handful of kids waving/clapping good bye to the Middlebury fan side of the field. This is trivial and takes place at every intense rivalry of every sport at every high level. Please watch this Saturday's Ohio St / Michigan game, which has similar stakes to today's soccer game. Whoever pulls away or wins it at the end will have 5 guys doing the exact same thing to the opposing fan section in the Big House. Watch Carolina/Duke in hoops and same thing. This is not a culture problem, parenting problem, or coaching problem. This is kids that work their butt off in a war for 90 mins and get to send their haters home. Good call on LSU/Iowa too (everyone loves Caitlin Clarke and no coaches were fired, players suspended, parents attacked, etc for the reciprocal clapping by the LSU squad). Good sports talk show and ESPN.com content. And apparently good message board content. This is sports.
2) Nuhu is heated. He is trying to cross the line and engage, potentially physically, with the Midd sideline, but is restrained. Glad he was restrained. Applause to the leadership and teammates that held back the first year from making a bad decision. Also, who knows what he endured throughout the game. I think it is fair to say from other testimonials on this message board that it was unusual behavior for him, so he's not a guy who psyches himself up by going crazy at opposing fans. Verbal on verbal back and forth that almost gets out of hand also happens sometimes across sports. At the professional level, it usually results in slap-on-the-wrist fines. At the D1 NCAA level, usually nothing. Players are subjected to all sorts of crazy hazing during games such as commentary about your sister/s, girlfriend, ex-girlfriend, mom, race, sexual orientation, and then the brute "you f-ing suck number twenty-one!" over and over again. This could have escalated, glad it didn't. I would be remiss not to remind folks that when Williams fell at the buzzer in the 2004 basketball National Championship game a year after winning it all in 2003, their senior 1st Team AA PG did not hug his brothers or shake opponents' hands, but rather Crotty ran to the Amherst cheering section and made gestures and started cussing back and forth with them. Amherst wasn't even in the title game that year. Still puts a smile on my face. Maybe today's Midd fans will smile knowing they got under the skin of Nuhu so much that they were priority #1 for him after the win rather than celebrating with his teammates. Moving on.
3) The air-jerk reserve for Amherst. Okay, yeah I am on the message boards side on this one...and apparently Amherst College is as well as he has already been suspended for the National Semi-Finals. That was dumb, classless, etc. Especially since he wasn't even marquee in the battle which means he wasn't getting it from the Midd students for 90 mins. Apologies to the Midd sideline (females especially) for that. College kids do stupid things sometimes.

The rest of the NESCAC hates Coach Serpone, as evidenced by his 1 COY award. If that's the cost for building a program that has won ~40% of league titles, made it to the Sweet 16 100% of his time coaching, and now 5 Final Fours in 16 years, I think he is good with that tradeoff. His players absolutely love him.

I was at the 2019 and 2021 National Championship games were we lost to Tufts 2-0 and Conn 1-1 in PKs. Two wars. Great sportsmanship by both teams. Tufts couldn't have been bothered less to win another natty, so that was just a flat ending to the game and they deserved the W. The Conn ending was the same as today's ending. 3-4 Conn kids waving home our sideline and alum section as they ran to celebrate the winning PK taker. No fans on on our side cared. They won. They celebrated. They shook our hands and we shook their hands and then we consoled our brothers. That match was cruel.

Amherst and Middlebury soccer do not like one another. It has been this way for 20+ years and will probably be this way for another 20+ years. Thus, the beauty of sports.

Probably time to bring this back:

The following is spectator colour and opinion, it is not substantive analysis and is based only on public information.  Amherst MSOC has not been involved in the preparation of this information and the contents may be contradictory to the official view of the programme.

Amherst 1 Middlebury 0

Firstly, Waltzy31, thanks for turning up.  I am confident that many here will not be satisfied by your response, but I think you have summarized things well. 

I have been fortunate to spend time with CSO and meet other Midd parents and enjoyed the discussion and perspective and am sure had I been at today's game, something similar would have taken place.  I am confident that I would have had much less engagement with what may have been Midd alumni in attendance.  My understanding is that these particular "fans" were to quote someone from earlier today, "giving the players the business".  One person's "banter" might be another's xenophobic commentary.  This line is a fine one and once crossed, is hard to come back from.  That doesn't justify a player over-reacting, but I think it verges on hysteria to attempt to sanction someone for waving.  Would there be any internal monitoring from this group if someone was maybe stepping over the line?  I can't imagine that happened and the fact that some players responded the way they did, whilst completely inappropriate, suggests it wasn't.  If I had been there and heard some of the stuff allegedly being said, I would have tried to maybe take some of the Amherst Ultras (only the more articulate ones – with a focus on  family values) and perhaps a few hockey players and go stand nearby.  I haven't heard any mention of the Occidental "fan" who blew a vuvuzela directly in the face of an Amherst player, but that doesn't fit with the narrative, so we can just move on instead.  I have been to enough games at Amherst and away and not witnessed anything like today's events at game's end, and observed the warm post-game reception from Stevens supporters only a week ago.  I think it takes two to tango.   

Onto the game...

Congratulations to Middlebury on what has been a fine season, equal third most wins in programme history is an outstanding achievement and a credit to a fine squad.  In St Louis and Grady, they are graduating two highly talented exponents of their respective positions, who I expect will go down in Panther folklore.  I was a lot happier watching them as a neutral than against Amherst, but admired them nonetheless.

My prevailing thought on the likely outcome was that both teams would feel very confident they could win it.  The fact that eight of the sixteen all first-NESCAC combine were on show, spoke to the talent spread across the two teams, plus three more Panthers chosen for the second group.  My other, completely wrong as it turned out, thought, was that the Mammoths would need at least three goals to win.  Instead, I should have re-read my previous description of Amherst's efficiency, as that was what we got to see, yet again.  It was a calm and confident display from the white shirts and probably no real surprise when continued pressure led to the first goal.  The fact there wasn't a second before half time was entirely due to a fine penalty save from Midd's keeper.  On another day, that might have lifted the Panthers at the Mammoths' expense, but those with purple in their hearts appeared to take it in their stride.  When I have seen Midd play well against Amherst, it has often been associated with forward drives from their midfield interacting with their talented forwards and bringing the ball into the penalty area.  Today, Amherst's midfield skilfully got in the way of that, which when combined with the forwards doing a great job of maintaining possession higher up the pitch, made the defenders' collective job that little bit easier. 

Making the final four is a real achievement and something that hand on heart, I wouldn't have thought possible after late losses to very good Babson and Conn teams, but the subsequent run the team has been on since, has been impressive.  Six clean sheets in the last eight games, of which five were in play-offs is a notable achievement, as are the seven 1-0 wins.  Serious credit must go to Coach Serpone and his staff, for what has been a stellar season, with hopefully more to come. I don't know lots about the other teams and will do my best to learn more over coming days, but each deserves high praise for getting to this stage. 

Foul Count: Amherst 15 Middlebury 17 – these are big games and neither team was going to back down.

Oh and it's K A L I N A U S K AS  -  I know that guarantees more of the same, but Don Quixote did have a Lithuanian/Australian counterpart. 

I just watched the video and find this whole episode very disappointing.  Not that there will but think there should be some sort of punishment.

Now in my interview with Coach Serpone, he suggested that the reason why there is so much antipathy for Amherst is because traditionally "they didn't look like other teams."  Infer from that what you will.  But I would suggest the display on Sunday has more to do with the general amhate more than anything else.

SC.

Let me put it this way...as a parent, I would be both extremely upset and extremely disappointed if either of my sons uttered a racist or homophobic slur, or made an obscene gesture...even in the heat of battle.  Our culture needs to be better than this.

I think several things can be true at the same time.  Serpone has built a culture of success in the Amherst men's soccer program, and many of his players do seem to revere him.  That said, creating a culture of chippyness and us against the world may work from a competitive standpoint, but there are kinder and gentler approaches that are equally successful.

Completely agree Northman.

I would add that I just looked at the Amherst roster. Good lord, it looks like every other roster out there. Extremely white, with a few kids of color.

Adding, to me, the post from the former Amherst player rings true.

Quote from: SimpleCoach on November 20, 2023, 06:22:55 AM
I just watched the video and find this whole episode very disappointing.  Not that there will but think there should be some sort of punishment.

Now in my interview with Coach Serpone, he suggested that the reason why there is so much antipathy for Amherst is because traditionally "they didn't look like other teams."  Infer from that what you will.  But I would suggest the display on Sunday has more to do with the general amhate more than anything else.

SC.

Amherst does not play the "beautiful game" as Pele would say but it works for them. I don't think they strung 3 passes together the whole game. It kinda of reminds me of North American ice hockey compare to European. Dump it in the zone and chase compare to moving the pick up through passing and skating. It works for them though. I have played against teams like that but one way we counter it was to let them have their third of the field and just picked off their passes. When we did that, the teams got confused because there was no place to go with the ball and it was too crowded.

Quote from: walzy31 on November 19, 2023, 10:37:35 PM
Former Amherst Soccer player weighing in here on my first ever D3 Soccer post (used to have a lot more to post about in the D3Hoops forums, but for obvious reasons, that flame has flickered out like the Encanto house and I am ready for the rebuild). Familiar with Bucket and a couple other names that are loyal to D3 athletics.

I have some answers to a few of the questions being tossed around on the boards:

Q: What happened in the 1H when Coach Serpone was upset with the officials and there was a prolonged stoppage?
A: One of Middlebury's players called Amherst's gay athlete the slur "fagg*t". As has been the case in the past, the most passionate version of Coach Serpone is when an opposing player uses hate speech directed towards one of his players. I don't remember what year or game, but ~5 years ago something similar happened in conference play with the n-word. The haters may say that this is a coaching tactic/antic to fire up his team... and they would be wrong. Coach Serpone has built an incredibly successful program that is built on love. The players love each other and the coach loves the players like his own children. Most of you are parents. If someone attacks your kid, you will probably be upset about it. Pretty sure the initiating slur also goes against that NESCAC sportsmanship statement.

Q: Why was the game chippy?
A: Because the NESCAC has become the overpowering force in D3 soccer for the past ~10 years after taking the torch from Messiah's epic run. Middlebury got one during Messiah's reign back in 2007 which started it, Amherst won one, Tufts was ridiculously good and impressive winning 4, and Conn took home a title. Williams and Bowdoin are perennially in the mix, and you can't sleep on Wesleyan or Trinity some years. 6 of the last 8 national champions are from the NESCAC and the last 3 runner-ups are also NESCAC. So when you get a NESCAC vs. NESCAC NCAA game, it may as well be the National Championship game, and all the players on both teams know this. Midd is always the most physical team in the league and it's not surprising their leaders committed hard fouls in the 1H. That works for them and I don't knock them for a second for their aggressive play. Let the referees handle the on-field action and hopefully no one gets hurt. But it is an absolute war for 90 minutes in an elimination game between conference opponents who both have what it takes to win it all. You go all out. The final whistle blows. You are happy to advance and send the other team home. I am sure all three of the remaining teams are amazing, but as a fan, I am relieved it is not a Midd->Tufts->Conn path. Had Midd won today, they would have to be favorites in Salem.

It sounds like Amherst was the better side today, stifling the Middlebury offense and winning 1-0 despite also not converting a PK. Soccer can be cruel, glad the better team won.

Post game activities
Appreciate the YouTube link! Three sections here:
1) In that video, you've got a handful of kids waving/clapping good bye to the Middlebury fan side of the field. This is trivial and takes place at every intense rivalry of every sport at every high level. Please watch this Saturday's Ohio St / Michigan game, which has similar stakes to today's soccer game. Whoever pulls away or wins it at the end will have 5 guys doing the exact same thing to the opposing fan section in the Big House. Watch Carolina/Duke in hoops and same thing. This is not a culture problem, parenting problem, or coaching problem. This is kids that work their butt off in a war for 90 mins and get to send their haters home. Good call on LSU/Iowa too (everyone loves Caitlin Clarke and no coaches were fired, players suspended, parents attacked, etc for the reciprocal clapping by the LSU squad). Good sports talk show and ESPN.com content. And apparently good message board content. This is sports.
2) Nuhu is heated. He is trying to cross the line and engage, potentially physically, with the Midd sideline, but is restrained. Glad he was restrained. Applause to the leadership and teammates that held back the first year from making a bad decision. Also, who knows what he endured throughout the game. I think it is fair to say from other testimonials on this message board that it was unusual behavior for him, so he's not a guy who psyches himself up by going crazy at opposing fans. Verbal on verbal back and forth that almost gets out of hand also happens sometimes across sports. At the professional level, it usually results in slap-on-the-wrist fines. At the D1 NCAA level, usually nothing. Players are subjected to all sorts of crazy hazing during games such as commentary about your sister/s, girlfriend, ex-girlfriend, mom, race, sexual orientation, and then the brute "you f-ing suck number twenty-one!" over and over again. This could have escalated, glad it didn't. I would be remiss not to remind folks that when Williams fell at the buzzer in the 2004 basketball National Championship game a year after winning it all in 2003, their senior 1st Team AA PG did not hug his brothers or shake opponents' hands, but rather Crotty ran to the Amherst cheering section and made gestures and started cussing back and forth with them. Amherst wasn't even in the title game that year. Still puts a smile on my face. Maybe today's Midd fans will smile knowing they got under the skin of Nuhu so much that they were priority #1 for him after the win rather than celebrating with his teammates. Moving on.
3) The air-jerk reserve for Amherst. Okay, yeah I am on the message boards side on this one...and apparently Amherst College is as well as he has already been suspended for the National Semi-Finals. That was dumb, classless, etc. Especially since he wasn't even marquee in the battle which means he wasn't getting it from the Midd students for 90 mins. Apologies to the Midd sideline (females especially) for that. College kids do stupid things sometimes.

The rest of the NESCAC hates Coach Serpone, as evidenced by his 1 COY award. If that's the cost for building a program that has won ~40% of league titles, made it to the Sweet 16 100% of his time coaching, and now 5 Final Fours in 16 years, I think he is good with that tradeoff. His players absolutely love him.

I was at the 2019 and 2021 National Championship games were we lost to Tufts 2-0 and Conn 1-1 in PKs. Two wars. Great sportsmanship by both teams. Tufts couldn't have been bothered less to win another natty, so that was just a flat ending to the game and they deserved the W. The Conn ending was the same as today's ending. 3-4 Conn kids waving home our sideline and alum section as they ran to celebrate the winning PK taker. No fans on on our side cared. They won. They celebrated. They shook our hands and we shook their hands and then we consoled our brothers. That match was cruel.

Amherst and Middlebury soccer do not like one another. It has been this way for 20+ years and will probably be this way for another 20+ years. Thus, the beauty of sports.

Thank you very much for taking the time to put another perspective and additional context to what we saw.

I think clapping off the visiting sideline is pretty abrasive and as I said it feels odd (to me) that the first instinct of a set of players is to IMMEDIATELY after winning go taunt the opposing sidelines. BUT, and this is important, you are correct that in rivalry games a lot of that stuff (what is said) can be over the line from fans and obviously it got under certain players skin. As you say, that's just not something I'd consider punishable.

If you are correct and the one guy grabbing his crotch is suspended... Feels like punishment earned and delivered.

So crotch grabbing and masturbation gesturing on camera vs off camera is the bar.

As suggested earlier, I won't be surprised if the only action is a suspension of that one player, which imo does not scream integrity or full accountability on the program/institution side.

Nice for the Amherst alum to jump in with a vigorous defense of the program but does not answer why it is always, always, always, always Amherst. In theory us haters should hate Tufts even more, but we don't even though we know Tufts (and a bunch of other schools including my own) aren't beyond a little taunting and celebration exuberance.

Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 20, 2023, 09:33:04 AM

Quote from: walzy31 on November 19, 2023, 10:37:35 PM
Former Amherst Soccer player weighing in here on my first ever D3 Soccer post (used to have a lot more to post about in the D3Hoops forums, but for obvious reasons, that flame has flickered out like the Encanto house and I am ready for the rebuild). Familiar with Bucket and a couple other names that are loyal to D3 athletics.

I have some answers to a few of the questions being tossed around on the boards:

Q: What happened in the 1H when Coach Serpone was upset with the officials and there was a prolonged stoppage?
A: One of Middlebury's players called Amherst's gay athlete the slur "fagg*t". As has been the case in the past, the most passionate version of Coach Serpone is when an opposing player uses hate speech directed towards one of his players. I don't remember what year or game, but ~5 years ago something similar happened in conference play with the n-word. The haters may say that this is a coaching tactic/antic to fire up his team... and they would be wrong. Coach Serpone has built an incredibly successful program that is built on love. The players love each other and the coach loves the players like his own children. Most of you are parents. If someone attacks your kid, you will probably be upset about it. Pretty sure the initiating slur also goes against that NESCAC sportsmanship statement.

Q: Why was the game chippy?
A: Because the NESCAC has become the overpowering force in D3 soccer for the past ~10 years after taking the torch from Messiah's epic run. Middlebury got one during Messiah's reign back in 2007 which started it, Amherst won one, Tufts was ridiculously good and impressive winning 4, and Conn took home a title. Williams and Bowdoin are perennially in the mix, and you can't sleep on Wesleyan or Trinity some years. 6 of the last 8 national champions are from the NESCAC and the last 3 runner-ups are also NESCAC. So when you get a NESCAC vs. NESCAC NCAA game, it may as well be the National Championship game, and all the players on both teams know this. Midd is always the most physical team in the league and it's not surprising their leaders committed hard fouls in the 1H. That works for them and I don't knock them for a second for their aggressive play. Let the referees handle the on-field action and hopefully no one gets hurt. But it is an absolute war for 90 minutes in an elimination game between conference opponents who both have what it takes to win it all. You go all out. The final whistle blows. You are happy to advance and send the other team home. I am sure all three of the remaining teams are amazing, but as a fan, I am relieved it is not a Midd->Tufts->Conn path. Had Midd won today, they would have to be favorites in Salem.

It sounds like Amherst was the better side today, stifling the Middlebury offense and winning 1-0 despite also not converting a PK. Soccer can be cruel, glad the better team won.

Post game activities
Appreciate the YouTube link! Three sections here:
1) In that video, you've got a handful of kids waving/clapping good bye to the Middlebury fan side of the field. This is trivial and takes place at every intense rivalry of every sport at every high level. Please watch this Saturday's Ohio St / Michigan game, which has similar stakes to today's soccer game. Whoever pulls away or wins it at the end will have 5 guys doing the exact same thing to the opposing fan section in the Big House. Watch Carolina/Duke in hoops and same thing. This is not a culture problem, parenting problem, or coaching problem. This is kids that work their butt off in a war for 90 mins and get to send their haters home. Good call on LSU/Iowa too (everyone loves Caitlin Clarke and no coaches were fired, players suspended, parents attacked, etc for the reciprocal clapping by the LSU squad). Good sports talk show and ESPN.com content. And apparently good message board content. This is sports.
2) Nuhu is heated. He is trying to cross the line and engage, potentially physically, with the Midd sideline, but is restrained. Glad he was restrained. Applause to the leadership and teammates that held back the first year from making a bad decision. Also, who knows what he endured throughout the game. I think it is fair to say from other testimonials on this message board that it was unusual behavior for him, so he's not a guy who psyches himself up by going crazy at opposing fans. Verbal on verbal back and forth that almost gets out of hand also happens sometimes across sports. At the professional level, it usually results in slap-on-the-wrist fines. At the D1 NCAA level, usually nothing. Players are subjected to all sorts of crazy hazing during games such as commentary about your sister/s, girlfriend, ex-girlfriend, mom, race, sexual orientation, and then the brute "you f-ing suck number twenty-one!" over and over again. This could have escalated, glad it didn't. I would be remiss not to remind folks that when Williams fell at the buzzer in the 2004 basketball National Championship game a year after winning it all in 2003, their senior 1st Team AA PG did not hug his brothers or shake opponents' hands, but rather Crotty ran to the Amherst cheering section and made gestures and started cussing back and forth with them. Amherst wasn't even in the title game that year. Still puts a smile on my face. Maybe today's Midd fans will smile knowing they got under the skin of Nuhu so much that they were priority #1 for him after the win rather than celebrating with his teammates. Moving on.
3) The air-jerk reserve for Amherst. Okay, yeah I am on the message boards side on this one...and apparently Amherst College is as well as he has already been suspended for the National Semi-Finals. That was dumb, classless, etc. Especially since he wasn't even marquee in the battle which means he wasn't getting it from the Midd students for 90 mins. Apologies to the Midd sideline (females especially) for that. College kids do stupid things sometimes.

The rest of the NESCAC hates Coach Serpone, as evidenced by his 1 COY award. If that's the cost for building a program that has won ~40% of league titles, made it to the Sweet 16 100% of his time coaching, and now 5 Final Fours in 16 years, I think he is good with that tradeoff. His players absolutely love him.

I was at the 2019 and 2021 National Championship games were we lost to Tufts 2-0 and Conn 1-1 in PKs. Two wars. Great sportsmanship by both teams. Tufts couldn't have been bothered less to win another natty, so that was just a flat ending to the game and they deserved the W. The Conn ending was the same as today's ending. 3-4 Conn kids waving home our sideline and alum section as they ran to celebrate the winning PK taker. No fans on on our side cared. They won. They celebrated. They shook our hands and we shook their hands and then we consoled our brothers. That match was cruel.

Amherst and Middlebury soccer do not like one another. It has been this way for 20+ years and will probably be this way for another 20+ years. Thus, the beauty of sports.

Thank you very much for taking the time to put another perspective and additional context to what we saw.

I think clapping off the visiting sideline is pretty abrasive and as I said it feels odd (to me) that the first instinct of a set of players is to IMMEDIATELY after winning go taunt the opposing sidelines. BUT, and this is important, you are correct that in rivalry games a lot of that stuff (what is said) can be over the line from fans and obviously it got under certain players skin. As you say, that's just not something I'd consider punishable.

If you are correct and the one guy grabbing his crotch is suspended... Feels like punishment earned and delivered.

Easy to make an example of the bench player....sounds like more than one person involved.

I attended a small high school that in my state was classified as Group 1 (smallest enrollment). We were playing in the County Tournament against a larger Group 3 school that was ranked in the state Top 20 and therefore heavy favorites to win our game.  Several of my club teammates were on that larger school roster including the son of my club coach.

Before the game, my club coach was telling me there is no way a sh!tty little school was going to beat a top 20 ranked team. As fate would have it, my sh!tty little school did win that game. 

I was a 15 year old HS sophomore. I LOVED my teammates, but my first reaction at the whistle was to run to my club coach and loudly proclaim in front of their entire parent-base "Not bad for a sh!tty little school, huh?".

It was not my proudest moment and I regretted it pretty quickly. From that day forward I took the high road and found killing them with kindness was a lot more satisfying.

So I'm not all up in arms about the behavior. I just think Amherst players have some maturing to do, as do those from other unnamed schools with boorish sideline antics. And not that they care, but neither school's program has my respect regardless of how successful they may be.

Years prior Amherst had been criticized for being the lowest of low when it comes to class. Justin Serpone is about as classless and fake as they come. After games he pretends to be emotional and praising of the opponent when he spends the entire game being deranged and low class. Amherst College loves to make videos about "what makes Amherst special", and then you see scenes like this where a kid who hasn't even got a jersey and is riding the bench the whole year waiving goodbye to opposing fans. I have zero problem with giving it back when someone gives it to you, but can't imagine the Middlebury parents were too worried about the actions of a benchwarmer. Big CB for Amherst from Australia loves to be low brow, did it last year against SLU. Serpone is running a sheep factory of kids who all act the same with zero individuality, which includes being classless in reality, and "humbled" in interviews.

Ejay I think we have all had a moment similar to the one you described. I think what most people can't understand/stomach is when will Amherst have that regret that you had?  When will they learn?  When will they be better people?

IMO they won't until there is change in leadership. Because it is either Coached or not discouraged.  And we all know that Dr Evil/ Mini-Me Serpone is first to cry when it gets done to Amherst.

Anyone know how to find a full game replay?  I have never seen amherst play but I am now interested in seeing a game.   

If indeed there were racial slurs from the opposing fans why wasn't this addressed by amherst - they were hosting.

My coach education classes are taught by a long time MIAC head coach. He said a couple things as part of the most recent class that stuck with me and seem relevant here.

1) He shared a Cheryl Reeve (head coach of MN Lynx of the WNBA) quote that goes "As a coach, you get what you accept." Rings very true in many aspects of coaching.

2) It was a 3 day class, and in order to teach it he had to miss coaching a game for his son's team. (I think approx 10-12 years old.) He shared with the class that he had to take a call at our lunch break from the coach filling in for him to let him know that one of the players on his son's team got two yellow cards in the game. I think one was for aggressive play and one for taunting. He told us about the punishment he was planning for the kid which I think was an extra half game suspension on top of the red card suspension plus writing a letter to his team about why what he did was wrong. The thing he said that stuck with me was "The kid never would have done that if I was there."

Moral of the story: Kids, whether they be 10 or 20, will push the envelope as far as they think the person in charge will let them get away with.

It stinks from the head of the fish!

Quote from: soccerpapa on November 20, 2023, 11:01:54 AM
Anyone know how to find a full game replay?  I have never seen amherst play but I am now interested in seeing a game.   

If indeed there were racial slurs from the opposing fans why wasn't this addressed by amherst - they were hosting.

If you search NESCAC Watch and select Amherst and pay the monthly fee of 11 dollars and some odd cents you can see this specific game. If you YouTube Amherst there are plenty of full game replays that show their style of play.

Thanks for info - wont be paying but will search YouTube

I thought as part of hosting you were expected to make the games available without charge/fees but I guess I am wrong on that

The livestream is free while the game is going on.  The on demand watch back later is what they charge for.

Quote from: walzy31 on November 19, 2023, 10:37:35 PM
Former Amherst Soccer player weighing in here on my first ever D3 Soccer post (used to have a lot more to post about in the D3Hoops forums, but for obvious reasons, that flame has flickered out like the Encanto house and I am ready for the rebuild). Familiar with Bucket and a couple other names that are loyal to D3 athletics.

I have some answers to a few of the questions being tossed around on the boards:

Q: What happened in the 1H when Coach Serpone was upset with the officials and there was a prolonged stoppage?
A: One of Middlebury's players called Amherst's gay athlete the slur "fagg*t". As has been the case in the past, the most passionate version of Coach Serpone is when an opposing player uses hate speech directed towards one of his players. I don't remember what year or game, but ~5 years ago something similar happened in conference play with the n-word. The haters may say that this is a coaching tactic/antic to fire up his team... and they would be wrong. Coach Serpone has built an incredibly successful program that is built on love. The players love each other and the coach loves the players like his own children. Most of you are parents. If someone attacks your kid, you will probably be upset about it. Pretty sure the initiating slur also goes against that NESCAC sportsmanship statement.

Q: Why was the game chippy?
A: Because the NESCAC has become the overpowering force in D3 soccer for the past ~10 years after taking the torch from Messiah's epic run. Middlebury got one during Messiah's reign back in 2007 which started it, Amherst won one, Tufts was ridiculously good and impressive winning 4, and Conn took home a title. Williams and Bowdoin are perennially in the mix, and you can't sleep on Wesleyan or Trinity some years. 6 of the last 8 national champions are from the NESCAC and the last 3 runner-ups are also NESCAC. So when you get a NESCAC vs. NESCAC NCAA game, it may as well be the National Championship game, and all the players on both teams know this. Midd is always the most physical team in the league and it's not surprising their leaders committed hard fouls in the 1H. That works for them and I don't knock them for a second for their aggressive play. Let the referees handle the on-field action and hopefully no one gets hurt. But it is an absolute war for 90 minutes in an elimination game between conference opponents who both have what it takes to win it all. You go all out. The final whistle blows. You are happy to advance and send the other team home. I am sure all three of the remaining teams are amazing, but as a fan, I am relieved it is not a Midd->Tufts->Conn path. Had Midd won today, they would have to be favorites in Salem.

It sounds like Amherst was the better side today, stifling the Middlebury offense and winning 1-0 despite also not converting a PK. Soccer can be cruel, glad the better team won.

Post game activities
Appreciate the YouTube link! Three sections here:
1) In that video, you've got a handful of kids waving/clapping good bye to the Middlebury fan side of the field. This is trivial and takes place at every intense rivalry of every sport at every high level. Please watch this Saturday's Ohio St / Michigan game, which has similar stakes to today's soccer game. Whoever pulls away or wins it at the end will have 5 guys doing the exact same thing to the opposing fan section in the Big House. Watch Carolina/Duke in hoops and same thing. This is not a culture problem, parenting problem, or coaching problem. This is kids that work their butt off in a war for 90 mins and get to send their haters home. Good call on LSU/Iowa too (everyone loves Caitlin Clarke and no coaches were fired, players suspended, parents attacked, etc for the reciprocal clapping by the LSU squad). Good sports talk show and ESPN.com content. And apparently good message board content. This is sports.
2) Nuhu is heated. He is trying to cross the line and engage, potentially physically, with the Midd sideline, but is restrained. Glad he was restrained. Applause to the leadership and teammates that held back the first year from making a bad decision. Also, who knows what he endured throughout the game. I think it is fair to say from other testimonials on this message board that it was unusual behavior for him, so he's not a guy who psyches himself up by going crazy at opposing fans. Verbal on verbal back and forth that almost gets out of hand also happens sometimes across sports. At the professional level, it usually results in slap-on-the-wrist fines. At the D1 NCAA level, usually nothing. Players are subjected to all sorts of crazy hazing during games such as commentary about your sister/s, girlfriend, ex-girlfriend, mom, race, sexual orientation, and then the brute "you f-ing suck number twenty-one!" over and over again. This could have escalated, glad it didn't. I would be remiss not to remind folks that when Williams fell at the buzzer in the 2004 basketball National Championship game a year after winning it all in 2003, their senior 1st Team AA PG did not hug his brothers or shake opponents' hands, but rather Crotty ran to the Amherst cheering section and made gestures and started cussing back and forth with them. Amherst wasn't even in the title game that year. Still puts a smile on my face. Maybe today's Midd fans will smile knowing they got under the skin of Nuhu so much that they were priority #1 for him after the win rather than celebrating with his teammates. Moving on.
3) The air-jerk reserve for Amherst. Okay, yeah I am on the message boards side on this one...and apparently Amherst College is as well as he has already been suspended for the National Semi-Finals. That was dumb, classless, etc. Especially since he wasn't even marquee in the battle which means he wasn't getting it from the Midd students for 90 mins. Apologies to the Midd sideline (females especially) for that. College kids do stupid things sometimes.

The rest of the NESCAC hates Coach Serpone, as evidenced by his 1 COY award. If that's the cost for building a program that has won ~40% of league titles, made it to the Sweet 16 100% of his time coaching, and now 5 Final Fours in 16 years, I think he is good with that tradeoff. His players absolutely love him.

I was at the 2019 and 2021 National Championship games were we lost to Tufts 2-0 and Conn 1-1 in PKs. Two wars. Great sportsmanship by both teams. Tufts couldn't have been bothered less to win another natty, so that was just a flat ending to the game and they deserved the W. The Conn ending was the same as today's ending. 3-4 Conn kids waving home our sideline and alum section as they ran to celebrate the winning PK taker. No fans on on our side cared. They won. They celebrated. They shook our hands and we shook their hands and then we consoled our brothers. That match was cruel.

Amherst and Middlebury soccer do not like one another. It has been this way for 20+ years and will probably be this way for another 20+ years. Thus, the beauty of sports.

Curious... who was the gentleman with the beard in the YouTube clip also waiving to the Midd fans?  He's not dressed to play, and he's out in front of the players at 1:32, taunting the parents.  Is that Asst Coach Ortega?

Quote from: FBALLISLIFE on November 20, 2023, 12:31:13 PM

Quote from: walzy31 on November 19, 2023, 10:37:35 PM
Former Amherst Soccer player weighing in here on my first ever D3 Soccer post (used to have a lot more to post about in the D3Hoops forums, but for obvious reasons, that flame has flickered out like the Encanto house and I am ready for the rebuild). Familiar with Bucket and a couple other names that are loyal to D3 athletics.

I have some answers to a few of the questions being tossed around on the boards:

Q: What happened in the 1H when Coach Serpone was upset with the officials and there was a prolonged stoppage?
A: One of Middlebury's players called Amherst's gay athlete the slur "fagg*t". As has been the case in the past, the most passionate version of Coach Serpone is when an opposing player uses hate speech directed towards one of his players. I don't remember what year or game, but ~5 years ago something similar happened in conference play with the n-word. The haters may say that this is a coaching tactic/antic to fire up his team... and they would be wrong. Coach Serpone has built an incredibly successful program that is built on love. The players love each other and the coach loves the players like his own children. Most of you are parents. If someone attacks your kid, you will probably be upset about it. Pretty sure the initiating slur also goes against that NESCAC sportsmanship statement.

Q: Why was the game chippy?
A: Because the NESCAC has become the overpowering force in D3 soccer for the past ~10 years after taking the torch from Messiah's epic run. Middlebury got one during Messiah's reign back in 2007 which started it, Amherst won one, Tufts was ridiculously good and impressive winning 4, and Conn took home a title. Williams and Bowdoin are perennially in the mix, and you can't sleep on Wesleyan or Trinity some years. 6 of the last 8 national champions are from the NESCAC and the last 3 runner-ups are also NESCAC. So when you get a NESCAC vs. NESCAC NCAA game, it may as well be the National Championship game, and all the players on both teams know this. Midd is always the most physical team in the league and it's not surprising their leaders committed hard fouls in the 1H. That works for them and I don't knock them for a second for their aggressive play. Let the referees handle the on-field action and hopefully no one gets hurt. But it is an absolute war for 90 minutes in an elimination game between conference opponents who both have what it takes to win it all. You go all out. The final whistle blows. You are happy to advance and send the other team home. I am sure all three of the remaining teams are amazing, but as a fan, I am relieved it is not a Midd->Tufts->Conn path. Had Midd won today, they would have to be favorites in Salem.

It sounds like Amherst was the better side today, stifling the Middlebury offense and winning 1-0 despite also not converting a PK. Soccer can be cruel, glad the better team won.

Post game activities
Appreciate the YouTube link! Three sections here:
1) In that video, you've got a handful of kids waving/clapping good bye to the Middlebury fan side of the field. This is trivial and takes place at every intense rivalry of every sport at every high level. Please watch this Saturday's Ohio St / Michigan game, which has similar stakes to today's soccer game. Whoever pulls away or wins it at the end will have 5 guys doing the exact same thing to the opposing fan section in the Big House. Watch Carolina/Duke in hoops and same thing. This is not a culture problem, parenting problem, or coaching problem. This is kids that work their butt off in a war for 90 mins and get to send their haters home. Good call on LSU/Iowa too (everyone loves Caitlin Clarke and no coaches were fired, players suspended, parents attacked, etc for the reciprocal clapping by the LSU squad). Good sports talk show and ESPN.com content. And apparently good message board content. This is sports.
2) Nuhu is heated. He is trying to cross the line and engage, potentially physically, with the Midd sideline, but is restrained. Glad he was restrained. Applause to the leadership and teammates that held back the first year from making a bad decision. Also, who knows what he endured throughout the game. I think it is fair to say from other testimonials on this message board that it was unusual behavior for him, so he's not a guy who psyches himself up by going crazy at opposing fans. Verbal on verbal back and forth that almost gets out of hand also happens sometimes across sports. At the professional level, it usually results in slap-on-the-wrist fines. At the D1 NCAA level, usually nothing. Players are subjected to all sorts of crazy hazing during games such as commentary about your sister/s, girlfriend, ex-girlfriend, mom, race, sexual orientation, and then the brute "you f-ing suck number twenty-one!" over and over again. This could have escalated, glad it didn't. I would be remiss not to remind folks that when Williams fell at the buzzer in the 2004 basketball National Championship game a year after winning it all in 2003, their senior 1st Team AA PG did not hug his brothers or shake opponents' hands, but rather Crotty ran to the Amherst cheering section and made gestures and started cussing back and forth with them. Amherst wasn't even in the title game that year. Still puts a smile on my face. Maybe today's Midd fans will smile knowing they got under the skin of Nuhu so much that they were priority #1 for him after the win rather than celebrating with his teammates. Moving on.
3) The air-jerk reserve for Amherst. Okay, yeah I am on the message boards side on this one...and apparently Amherst College is as well as he has already been suspended for the National Semi-Finals. That was dumb, classless, etc. Especially since he wasn't even marquee in the battle which means he wasn't getting it from the Midd students for 90 mins. Apologies to the Midd sideline (females especially) for that. College kids do stupid things sometimes.

The rest of the NESCAC hates Coach Serpone, as evidenced by his 1 COY award. If that's the cost for building a program that has won ~40% of league titles, made it to the Sweet 16 100% of his time coaching, and now 5 Final Fours in 16 years, I think he is good with that tradeoff. His players absolutely love him.

I was at the 2019 and 2021 National Championship games were we lost to Tufts 2-0 and Conn 1-1 in PKs. Two wars. Great sportsmanship by both teams. Tufts couldn't have been bothered less to win another natty, so that was just a flat ending to the game and they deserved the W. The Conn ending was the same as today's ending. 3-4 Conn kids waving home our sideline and alum section as they ran to celebrate the winning PK taker. No fans on on our side cared. They won. They celebrated. They shook our hands and we shook their hands and then we consoled our brothers. That match was cruel.

Amherst and Middlebury soccer do not like one another. It has been this way for 20+ years and will probably be this way for another 20+ years. Thus, the beauty of sports.

Curious... who was the gentleman with the beard in the YouTube clip also waiving to the Midd fans?  He's not dressed to play, and he's out in front of the players at 1:32, taunting the parents.  Is that Asst Coach Ortega?

I didn't think it was an active player at first glance.  I appreciate the former player angle put think its may be seen through a pair of purple colored glasses...I struggle with the thought that if Serpone's ire was toward inappropriate behavior aimed at his players why there wasn't a stoppage/warning to the Midd team at a minimum - clearly within the NCAA/NESCAC's code to enforce........that staff wears out the 4th official every game I've watched.

Quote from: FBALLISLIFE on November 20, 2023, 12:31:13 PM
Curious... who was the gentleman with the beard in the YouTube clip also waiving to the Midd fans?  He's not dressed to play, and he's out in front of the players at 1:32, taunting the parents.  Is that Asst Coach Ortega?

Was wondering the same thing. Not exactly the way you would want a leader to act. 

Quote from: Ejay on November 20, 2023, 10:25:40 AM
I attended a small high school that in my state was classified as Group 1 (smallest enrollment). We were playing in the County Tournament against a larger Group 3 school that was ranked in the state Top 20 and therefore heavy favorites to win our game.  Several of my club teammates were on that larger school roster including the son of my club coach.

Before the game, my club coach was telling me there is no way a sh!tty little school was going to beat a top 20 ranked team. As fate would have it, my sh!tty little school did win that game. 

I was a 15 year old HS sophomore. I LOVED my teammates, but my first reaction at the whistle was to run to my club coach and loudly proclaim in front of their entire parent-base "Not bad for a sh!tty little school, huh?".

It was not my proudest moment and I regretted it pretty quickly. From that day forward I took the high road and found killing them with kindness was a lot more satisfying.

So I'm not all up in arms about the behavior. I just think Amherst players have some maturing to do, as do those from other unnamed schools with boorish sideline antics. And not that they care, but neither school's program has my respect regardless of how successful they may be.

Your story rings true, Ejay...for 15 year old adolescent behavior.  But being in college in the 18-22 age range is a different proposition and typically reflects a different level of maturity.

In high school in NH, we seniors on our high school ski team treated the freshmen (including my little brother) like peons and made them carry our skis for us.  I don't look back on that with any sense of pride.

By the time I got to college and was skiing in an elite college program, I quickly learned that things were more professional, everyone was expected to do the work, and everyone behaved with a level of maturity and accountability that was lacking in high school.  There is a big difference.

Quote


Curious... who was the gentleman with the beard in the YouTube clip also waiving to the Midd fans?  He's not dressed to play, and he's out in front of the players at 1:32, taunting the parents.  Is that Asst Coach Ortega?

Yes.

Ok sorry for a sidetrack here but had to respond to this from Walzy:

(used to have a lot more to post about in the D3Hoops forums, but for obvious reasons, that flame has flickered out like the Encanto house and I am ready for the rebuild).

First, as the father of a five year old girl, great reference.  Second, while I feel you on Amherst hoops, maybe consider returning at least for an all-crazy team cameo???

Quote from: Bucket on November 20, 2023, 01:37:40 PM

Quote


Curious... who was the gentleman with the beard in the YouTube clip also waiving to the Midd fans?  He's not dressed to play, and he's out in front of the players at 1:32, taunting the parents.  Is that Asst Coach Ortega?

Yes.

If true, then you have a coach on film not only failing to get his boys in check, but actually leading the effort out front to taunt an opponent's fans.  Classless, indeed.

Kudos to the one kid who was pulling Nuhu and Kalinauskas back.  Wish his coach had the same integrity.

Coach Ortega isn't even an assistant coach, anyone who knows Amherst soccer knows Shea and Serpone do everything. Ortega basically lays out the pylons at practice and was waiving goodbye to people who he didn't even play against. If he does get a head coaching job somewhere, I wouldn't expect it to be a team who will ever play in the NCAA tournament. Classless and pathetic.

I think we are blowing some of this out of proportion. The waving is just common sports antics and a classic reaction to a group of fans that have tormented you the entire game. They cross the line by grabbing the private parts and the coach joining in on the waves. While it's hilarious watching back, I'm sure both are looking back at this and regretting their decisions. Putting all the blame on Serpone for all of this is a stretch and not enough to warrant a suspension of coach Serpone.

Players should never engage their opponent's crowd, not a good idea.

Is this coming from a Conn parent?

No.  Read his posts.  He supports Tufts.

Jombo parent and a general fan of NESCAC.

How about Washington Collage or St. Olaf? We've had no discussion about them!

I'm still peeved at Massey. W&L is ranked lower than four teams we beat.

I would not worry about rankings if we were in your position, the lack of recognition could be to your advantage.

Just an observation from someone who just saw their first Amherst game yesterday. Why are the fans so close to the field? What are the seating options there? It looked like a youth soccer game with barely enough room for an AR.

Yeah, AM... The nice thing about the Massey rating is also it's negative... There's almost zero subjectivity, it's just a formula. (You could say how he creates and tweaks the formula is certainly his prerogative and injects his subjective view into things.)

I once got into a rather silly debate with paclassic because I'm not a numbers person and I "took issue" with his RPI posts. (I think there might've been something about his framing of things that got me going, but whatever...) Now I look forward to another helpful and often quite predictive tool to see where teams stack up, especially once we get into October.

Congrats to you and your son. Hope you can celebrate down NC in a few weeks!

Just an observation from someone who just saw their first Amherst game yesterday. Why are the fans so close to the field? What are the seating options there? It looked like a youth soccer game with barely enough room for an AR.


Good question, I kept looking for a fence.

Quote from: Another Mom on November 20, 2023, 02:47:25 PM
How about Washington Collage or St. Olaf? We've had no discussion about them!

I'm still peeved at Massey. W&L is ranked lower than four teams we beat.

As for the Shorepeople and the best logo in the Centennial (I voted and that decides it): I have a very skewed opinion on them, because Hop beat them twice by 2-0 scores. Both games were a little closer than that scoreline, but not fluky or undeserved Ws by any stretch. I wouldn't say I'm shocked that they are in the F4... But I am very VERY surprised.

I always root for the CC, so I'm definitely pulling for them.

Quote from: Another Mom on November 20, 2023, 02:47:25 PM
How about Washington Collage or St. Olaf? We've had no discussion about them!

I'm still peeved at Massey. W&L is ranked lower than four teams we beat.

I actually have non-NESCAC, non-W&L content to contribute!

One of my son's former high school (and former local club) teammates is a first year on the St. Olaf squad:

https://athletics.stolaf.edu/sports/mens-soccer/roster/trey-bosworth/12524

He hasn't played much as a first year, but he's a member of a team in the Final Four. As a kid who played at a small public high school in Vermont and was on a local (i.e., not national travel) club team, Trey personifies all that is right with the game we all share a passion for. At least I think so.

Scientifically speaking none of these young men have fully developed brains yet.  They will make a lot of mistakes.  In the meantime they will be shaped by team character given the time commitments to these programs.

I went back and watched SC's interview with WAC Coach Dunshee.  After agreeing with SC on strength of culture as a factor for team success he says:

"For culture you have to set an environment.  The best way to do that is to model good leadership.  If you want your players to be good leaders, then you have to be a good leader. I try to lead by example in everything I do.  The key, of course, is in recruiting.  I can make a player better.  It's harder to make a person a better person, if it's not there.  I think we have a fantastic culture in our team right now.  I'll take credit for rounding those guys up.  I will not take credit for who they are.  That credit belongs to their families."

At WAC families of players are considered part of the team.  After each game, win or lose, families join the team for a meal.  They volunteer for tasks and events.  It's easier to preach leadership when you have reinforcements.

As the clock ran out on their victory yesterday the team immediately went straight to their families in the stands.  This was their captured moment as a team:

https://www.instagram.com/p/Cz181HTPKCI/ (https://www.instagram.com/p/Cz181HTPKCI/)

Not to say other programs don't have high cultural standards--it was great to read some examples here like Messiah and others.  Recruits are paying attention.  If not they should be.

Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 20, 2023, 03:15:12 PM

Quote from: Another Mom on November 20, 2023, 02:47:25 PM
How about Washington Collage or St. Olaf? We've had no discussion about them!

I'm still peeved at Massey. W&L is ranked lower than four teams we beat.

As for the Shorepeople and the best logo in the Centennial (I voted and that decides it): I have a very skewed opinion on them, because Hop beat them twice by 2-0 scores. Both games were a little closer than that scoreline, but not fluky or undeserved Ws by any stretch. I wouldn't say I'm shocked that they are in the F4... But I am very VERY surprised.

I always root for the CC, so I'm definitely pulling for them.

Not sure there is anyone who isn't surprised.  I watched their games and noticed they played great defense.  But as I look at the other semifinalists W&L and Amherst actually allowed less goals in the tournament--only one for each.  I cringed during the second half of their last two games against Mary Wash and Conn, teams which scored well above 2 goals per game during the regular season.  At about the 65 minute mark in both games they parked the bus.  Guessing Coach was confident in his defense.  Looking ahead to St Olaf, a team that scored just under 3 goals per game in the regular seasons and has scored 14 in the tournament, I'd be a little worried.

Edit: And I actually like St Olaf's crest.  Reminds me of English football.

Curious... who was the gentleman with the beard in the YouTube clip also waiving to the Midd fans?  He's not dressed to play, and he's out in front of the players at 1:32, taunting the parents.  Is that Asst Coach Ortega?
[/quote] I didn't think it was an active player at first glance.  I appreciate the former player angle put think its may be seen through a pair of purple colored glasses...I struggle with the thought that if Serpone's ire was toward inappropriate behavior aimed at his players why there wasn't a stoppage/warning to the Midd team at a minimum - clearly within the NCAA/NESCAC's code to enforce........that staff wears out the 4th official every game I've watched.
[/quote]

There have been several examples of this happening in various professional levels here in the US, and every time the game was either abandoned or there were immediate repercussions for the offending team and/or player through ejections or cards.  I'm watching the replay again, and there is no one else reacting to whatever Serpone thinks warranted a stoppage of play.  In today's world I find it extremely difficult to believe that something like this happening, in a NESCAC setting no less, would not result in a near unanimous uproar and on field reaction.    Sure, it could have happened the way described, but they are not going to get the benefit of the doubt from me until proven otherwise.   As I mentioned before, everything that transpired has to be viewed in the broader context of observed actions the past 15 years. 

St Olaf has player on their team whose last name is Morgan.  He played at North Hermon prep school I believe and has been called into Costa Rico U-23 national team.  I have watched some of their games although very briefly. He is very good.  Topdrawer soccer had an article on him.  Best of luck to all the final 4 teams.Enjoy the holiday and the moment.

As surprised as some of you are that Washington College and St. Olaf made it to the final four, I must say that *I* am surprised that W&L is there.  That said, none of the teams we've played so far was better than them (equal to, sure).

The W&L players initially swarmed their GK immediately after he blocked the PK, and then, yes, they all ran over to the stands where families and friends were, and all high fived all the parents' extended hands as we leaned over the bleachers' fence.

From memory, there is no barrier at the Amherst field, there are some tiny temporary bleachers and most people stand on the grass sidelines.

Quote from: Freddyfud on November 20, 2023, 03:20:09 PM
Scientifically speaking none of these young men have fully developed brains yet.  They will make a lot of mistakes.  In the meantime they will be shaped by team character given the time commitments to these programs.

I went back and watched SC's interview with WAC Coach Dunshee.  After agreeing with SC on strength of culture as a factor for team success he says:

"For culture you have to set an environment.  The best way to do that is to model good leadership.  If you want your players to be good leaders, then you have to be a good leader. I try to lead by example in everything I do.  The key, of course, is in recruiting.  I can make a player better.  It's harder to make a person a better person, if it's not there.  I think we have a fantastic culture in our team right now.  I'll take credit for rounding those guys up.  I will not take credit for who they are.  That credit belongs to their families."

At WAC families of players are considered part of the team.  After each game, win or lose, families join the team for a meal.  They volunteer for tasks and events.  It's easier to preach leadership when you have reinforcements.

As the clock ran out on their victory yesterday the team immediately went straight to their families in the stands.  This was their captured moment as a team:

https://www.instagram.com/p/Cz181HTPKCI/ (https://www.instagram.com/p/Cz181HTPKCI/)

Not to say other programs don't have high cultural standards--it was great to read some examples here like Messiah and others.  Recruits are paying attention.  If not they should be.

Those are good observations, Freddyfud.  During my son's junior year at Bowdoin, they "lost' the NESCAC tournament final to Middlebury at home on PKs.  They were of course crestfallen...while the Middlebury players sang some kind of song (which I have no problem with).  Bowdoin then avenged this "loss" by beating Middlebury in the Elite 8 (also at home) on a goal that was literally scored as the clock ticked down toward zero at the end of the first OT.  This was in the days of the golden goal.

Rather than taunt the Middlebury players, the Bowdoin players, their parents and the fans rushed the field for a mass celebration.  That's all to say that there are different kinds of responses to winning a tough, competitive game.

Quote from: Another Mom on November 20, 2023, 02:47:25 PM
How about Washington Collage or St. Olaf? We've had no discussion about them!

I'm still peeved at Massey. W&L is ranked lower than four teams we beat.

I'll offer a few of my "probably only of interest to me" observations about Washington College, which seems to be the biggest underdog of the Final Four and therefore the most suitable for my kind of Region X-style posts.  Plus, there's an admirable Southern California angle to Washington College's coaching staff that is worth spotlighting given the, ahem, somewhat negative view on the Boards of the coaching staff of at least one of the other participants in this year's Final Four.

Washington College assistant coach Ryan Shera lived in the Southern California area prior to the pandemic, coaching youth soccer.  For awhile, he was the soccer director for Yalla Academy, which was a soccer, tutoring, and college program for refugee children that existed at the time in El Cajon, CA.  It was started by someone from Lebanon, but it served refugee kids from all over, including Iraq, Afghanistan, Egypt, Mexico, Guatemala, Sudan, Ethiopia, Liberia, and the Philippines.  He got some national attention for his work there:

https://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/20162547/yalla-non-profit-academy-el-cajon-supports-refugee-families-soccer

Incidentally, the last photo and description in the ESPN story is of a Sudanese refugee named Akuar Yamun, who Yalla's founder saw playing soccer in the park and encouraged his father to bring him to Yalla for soccer and tutoring to help him get a chance to go to college (his father was one of the "Lost Boys" from South Sudan who Akuar said walked 1,000 miles to Ethiopa to escape the Civil War).  In a feel good update on Akuar, he went on to play club at Nomads and just finished his freshman year as a 6'5" defender at San Diego City College in case anyone is looking for a community college transfer in a year or so - https://www.sdcityknights.com/sports/msoc/2023-24/roster (https://www.sdcityknights.com/sports/msoc/2023-24/roster); https://x.com/sdcityknights/status/1705455515722260529?s=20 (https://x.com/sdcityknights/status/1705455515722260529?s=20))

Here's an interview Shera did with a local station about the program (rocking a hairstyle that I'm sure his current players would love to see!).

https://www.kpbs.org/news/midday-edition/2015/08/26/one-youth-soccer-league-san-diego-college-goal

Here's an interview that Shera did with Simple Coach (with a much more conservative hair style)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KymkA31Mzuk

It's also interesting to note that Head Coach Roy Dunshee and Asst Coach Shera both have law degrees.  Shera still practices law as well, serving as general counsel for his family's business.  I don't know if there are any other soccer programs in the country with two lawyers on the coaching staff.  It would be interesting to see what the player contracts in the Washington College program look like!

And, if you want to extend the Law connection further with Washington College, the team's leading scorer this year was Ben Strine.  Ben's brother James, a volunteer assistant coach on this year's team, was the co-leading scorer on the 2021 team that made it to the Sweet Sixteen of the NCAA Tournament.

https://www.washcoll.edu/live/news/strine-brothers.php

How does that relate to law?  Their father, Leo Strine, is the former Chancellor of the Delaware Court of Chancery (the most important business law court in the country because most public corporations are incorporated in Delaware) and the former Chief Justice of the Delaware Supreme Court.

Quote
I'll offer a few of my "probably only of interest to me" observations about Washington College, which seems to be the biggest underdog of the Final Four

I wouldn't go so far as to call Washington College an underdog. They've been legit all season. They were undefeated through their first 14 games, and they've only lost to 1 team (Hopkins) albeit twice. I like their chances.

Quote from: Ejay on November 20, 2023, 04:46:49 PM

Quote
I'll offer a few of my "probably only of interest to me" observations about Washington College, which seems to be the biggest underdog of the Final Four

I wouldn't go so far as to call Washington College an underdog. They've been legit all season. They were undefeated through their first 14 games, and they've only lost to 1 team (Hopkins) albeit twice. I like their chances.

Sorry, that wasn't meant as a slight or a statement about their chances.  It might have been better for me to use the phrase, the "school that no one is talking about," which is indeed an accurate description of what Region X schools feel like sometimes!

Quote from: Freddyfud on November 20, 2023, 03:33:40 PM

Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 20, 2023, 03:15:12 PM

As for the Shorepeople and the best logo in the Centennial (I voted and that decides it): I have a very skewed opinion on them, because Hop beat them twice by 2-0 scores. Both games were a little closer than that scoreline, but not fluky or undeserved Ws by any stretch. I wouldn't say I'm shocked that they are in the F4... But I am very VERY surprised.

I always root for the CC, so I'm definitely pulling for them.

Not sure there is anyone who isn't surprised.  I watched their games and noticed they played great defense.  But as I look at the other semifinalists W&L and Amherst actually allowed less goals in the tournament--only one for each.  I cringed during the second half of their last two games against Mary Wash and Conn, teams which scored well above 2 goals per game during the regular season.  At about the 65 minute mark in both games they parked the bus.  Guessing Coach was confident in his defense.  Looking ahead to St Olaf, a team that scored just under 3 goals per game in the regular seasons and has scored 14 in the tournament, I'd be a little worried.

Edit: And I actually like St Olaf's crest.  Reminds me of English football.

I'm going for the Shor'men (fyi, Eastern Shore dialect, a story all by itself) and its logo. If it was the women's team, they would be the Shor'women.  Any club which adopts the Maryland flag pattern along with a goose gets my vote.  We live on the other side of the Chesapeake and every kid (most adults as well) have Maryland flag colors/pattern in there clothing. Whole stores where you can buy Maryland centric items - think Disney stores.  Never a wrong gift for Xmas around here.

WC beat my team and played well. Peaking at the right time and getting it done! Plus two weeks to get ready.

Quote from: Newenglander on November 19, 2023, 05:52:36 PM

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2023, 05:47:04 PM

Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 19, 2023, 05:26:20 PM
The guy grabbing his crotch should be, at a minimum, not allowed to travel to NC.

As others have said, there is something going on at Amherst that isn't "normal." Even if the opposing fans were giving the players the business, it's a very strange reaction after punching a ticket to the F4 to go over, as a team, to the opposing fans like that. It's definitely a culture thing. Us vs. Everybody, chip on your shoulder, constantly chippy in your style. That's all fine... Until you channel that into highly inappropriate and unsportsmanlike behavior.

With all of that said... I know folks feel strongly on here, especially those that have noted this culture and its problematic (at times) results. But I don't see a coach getting fired for that display. First off, there's another side to this in terms of what was going on with those fans. This wasn't done in a vacuum, I'm sure. There's no excuse for it, but I'd appreciate hearing what sparked that stuff.

Agreed.  I don't there is any chance Serpone gets fired or even "a stern talking to"....as though he doesn't absorb and dismiss the latter multiple times a game.

And you're also right that they likely were responding to some stick from the Midd crowd.. But the risk with that is each and every instance gets explained away.  There's always an apologist at the ready to compartmentalize anything negative as aberration and collude with a narrative that Amherst actually holds the rightful grievance as the ultimate victim of unfair targeting.  Rapal was cited for his behavior in the 1st round match.

400+ programs....and we're supposed to believe that it's a total coincidence or unfair targeting that we're yet again talking about Amherst coach and player behavior.

somebody had posted NCAA rules on straight reds for players abusing officials- not sure how this hasn't carried over to the sidelines

The bench decorum was a point of emphasis for officials this season... we really need to hold these programs accountable.  Not even sure what the governing body will do in this case, but something needs to be done.  This year was a chance for us officials to curb this mindset/behavior.

Coaching and Team Area Decorum. Coaches, players and bench personnel must behave in a responsible and professional manner. Officials will focus on enforcing good sportsmanship and a high level of decorum within the coaching and team areas. "Over the top" unprofessional behavior includes actions which show a clear lack of respect for game officials or the opposing team. Officials are reminded that they are expected to punish this type of behavior.

Quote from: Kuiper on November 20, 2023, 04:34:11 PM

I'll offer a few of my "probably only of interest to me" observations about Washington College, which seems to be the biggest underdog of the Final Four and therefore the most suitable for my kind of Region X-style posts.  Plus, there's an admirable Southern California angle to Washington College's coaching staff that is worth spotlighting given the, ahem, somewhat negative view on the Boards of the coaching staff of at least one of the other participants in this year's Final Four.

Washington College assistant coach Ryan Shera lived in the Southern California area prior to the pandemic, coaching youth soccer.  For awhile, he was the soccer director for Yalla Academy, which was a soccer, tutoring, and college program for refugee children that existed at the time in El Cajon, CA.  It was started by someone from Lebanon, but it served refugee kids from all over, including Iraq, Afghanistan, Egypt, Mexico, Guatemala, Sudan, Ethiopia, Liberia, and the Philippines.  He got some national attention for his work there:

https://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/20162547/yalla-non-profit-academy-el-cajon-supports-refugee-families-soccer

Incidentally, the last photo and description in the ESPN story is of a Sudanese refugee named Akuar Yamun, who Yalla's founder saw playing soccer in the park and encouraged his father to bring him to Yalla for soccer and tutoring to help him get a chance to go to college (his father was one of the "Lost Boys" from South Sudan who Akuar said walked 1,000 miles to Ethiopa to escape the Civil War).  In a feel good update on Akuar, he went on to play club at Nomads and just finished his freshman year as a 6'5" defender at San Diego City College in case anyone is looking for a community college transfer in a year or so - https://www.sdcityknights.com/sports/msoc/2023-24/roster (https://www.sdcityknights.com/sports/msoc/2023-24/roster); https://x.com/sdcityknights/status/1705455515722260529?s=20 (https://x.com/sdcityknights/status/1705455515722260529?s=20))

Here's an interview Shera did with a local station about the program (rocking a hairstyle that I'm sure his current players would love to see!).

https://www.kpbs.org/news/midday-edition/2015/08/26/one-youth-soccer-league-san-diego-college-goal

Here's an interview that Shera did with Simple Coach (with a much more conservative hair style)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KymkA31Mzuk

It's also interesting to note that Head Coach Roy Dunshee and Asst Coach Shera both have law degrees.  Shera still practices law as well, serving as general counsel for his family's business.  I don't know if there are any other soccer programs in the country with two lawyers on the coaching staff.  It would be interesting to see what the player contracts in the Washington College program look like!

And, if you want to extend the Law connection further with Washington College, the team's leading scorer this year was Ben Strine.  Ben's brother James, a volunteer assistant coach on this year's team, was the co-leading scorer on the 2021 team that made it to the Sweet Sixteen of the NCAA Tournament.

https://www.washcoll.edu/live/news/strine-brothers.php

How does that relate to law?  Their father, Leo Strine, is the former Chancellor of the Delaware Court of Chancery (the most important business law court in the country because most public corporations are incorporated in Delaware) and the former Chief Justice of the Delaware Supreme Court.

Adding something as well, Roy Dunshee got his start head coaching in high school soccer and made the jump to college. He coached at my son's HS, Severna Park (a public HS), for several years before my son's time, but his asst coach took over and has had equal success at the HS.  Further, Roy ran Coerver for Maryland (https://www.coerverunited.com/) which he gave up to Sev. Park's now head coach. Don't know why they left that out of bio. So he has a unusual story, but not as much as his asst. coach.  You might say that he is not the usual head college coach.  Also a really, really stand up guy.  Simple Coach's interview is exactly the way he is.

Roy's son goes to St. Mary's College of Maryland (actually a small honors state college in St. Mary's County, southern Maryland) and they went to the NCAAs this year.  Lost in the first round to John Carroll.

Another Mom, you may have not made the connection, but W&L has a freshman from Severna Park, Brad Dulin, who left a MLS Next program to play his senior year for HS soccer.  He played for a program that started its upswing because of Dunshee.  Last year, his team lost in the state finals after a great run to the finals. Also, the SP girls just finished winning the state title and were undefeated while being coached by another Coerver coach when Dunshee ran the program.

You could say that Roy Dunshee has a coaching tree.  Maybe not in college, but in other ways. FYI, Coerver is profitable and don't think any of these coaches will make the jump like Roy did.

Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 20, 2023, 05:32:39 PM

Quote from: Kuiper on November 20, 2023, 04:34:11 PM

I'll offer a few of my "probably only of interest to me" observations about Washington College, which seems to be the biggest underdog of the Final Four and therefore the most suitable for my kind of Region X-style posts.  Plus, there's an admirable Southern California angle to Washington College's coaching staff that is worth spotlighting given the, ahem, somewhat negative view on the Boards of the coaching staff of at least one of the other participants in this year's Final Four.

Washington College assistant coach Ryan Shera lived in the Southern California area prior to the pandemic, coaching youth soccer.  For awhile, he was the soccer director for Yalla Academy, which was a soccer, tutoring, and college program for refugee children that existed at the time in El Cajon, CA.  It was started by someone from Lebanon, but it served refugee kids from all over, including Iraq, Afghanistan, Egypt, Mexico, Guatemala, Sudan, Ethiopia, Liberia, and the Philippines.  He got some national attention for his work there:

https://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/20162547/yalla-non-profit-academy-el-cajon-supports-refugee-families-soccer

Incidentally, the last photo and description in the ESPN story is of a Sudanese refugee named Akuar Yamun, who Yalla's founder saw playing soccer in the park and encouraged his father to bring him to Yalla for soccer and tutoring to help him get a chance to go to college (his father was one of the "Lost Boys" from South Sudan who Akuar said walked 1,000 miles to Ethiopa to escape the Civil War).  In a feel good update on Akuar, he went on to play club at Nomads and just finished his freshman year as a 6'5" defender at San Diego City College in case anyone is looking for a community college transfer in a year or so - https://www.sdcityknights.com/sports/msoc/2023-24/roster (https://www.sdcityknights.com/sports/msoc/2023-24/roster); https://x.com/sdcityknights/status/1705455515722260529?s=20 (https://x.com/sdcityknights/status/1705455515722260529?s=20))

Here's an interview Shera did with a local station about the program (rocking a hairstyle that I'm sure his current players would love to see!).

https://www.kpbs.org/news/midday-edition/2015/08/26/one-youth-soccer-league-san-diego-college-goal

Here's an interview that Shera did with Simple Coach (with a much more conservative hair style)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KymkA31Mzuk

It's also interesting to note that Head Coach Roy Dunshee and Asst Coach Shera both have law degrees.  Shera still practices law as well, serving as general counsel for his family's business.  I don't know if there are any other soccer programs in the country with two lawyers on the coaching staff.  It would be interesting to see what the player contracts in the Washington College program look like!

And, if you want to extend the Law connection further with Washington College, the team's leading scorer this year was Ben Strine.  Ben's brother James, a volunteer assistant coach on this year's team, was the co-leading scorer on the 2021 team that made it to the Sweet Sixteen of the NCAA Tournament.

https://www.washcoll.edu/live/news/strine-brothers.php

How does that relate to law?  Their father, Leo Strine, is the former Chancellor of the Delaware Court of Chancery (the most important business law court in the country because most public corporations are incorporated in Delaware) and the former Chief Justice of the Delaware Supreme Court.

Adding something as well, Roy Dunshee got his start head coaching in high school soccer and made the jump to college. He coached at my son's HS, Severna Park (a public HS), for several years before my son's time, but his asst coach took over and has had equal success at the HS.  Further, Roy ran Coerver for Maryland (https://www.coerverunited.com/) which he gave up to Sev. Park's now head coach. Don't know why they left that out of bio. So he has a unusual story, but not as much as his asst. coach.  You might say that he is not the usual head college coach.  Also a really, really stand up guy.  Simple Coach's interview is exactly the way he is.

Roy's son goes to St. Mary's College of Maryland (actually a small honors state college in St. Mary's County, southern Maryland) and they went to the NCAAs this year.  Lost in the first round to John Carroll.

Another Mom, you may have not made the connection, but W&L has a freshman from Severna Park, Brad Dulin, who left a MLS Next program to play his senior year for HS soccer.  He played for a program that started its upswing because of Dunshee.  Last year, his team lost in the state finals after a great run to the finals. Also, the SP girls just finished winning the state title and were undefeated while being coached by another Coerver coach when Dunshee ran the program.

You could say that Roy Dunshee has a coaching tree.  Maybe not in college, but in other ways. FYI, Coerver is profitable and don't think any of these coaches will make the jump like Roy did.

As for the Dunshee coaching tree, it does extend to college.  His 2015 captain at WC, Chris Koch, is the son of legendary UMass coach Sam Koch, a teammate of mine at Colby in the 1970s.  Chris went on to assist at WC and is now the assistant at Stevens, which went to the Final Four last year.

Yes, Brad Dulin is a great addition to the team! (His parents are very nice as well). Brad has gotten some good playing time this year.

I think it's fair to refer to WC as both "for real" and an underdog.

I remember wondering in 2021 where WC had come from.  I do follow the CC with some interest and tbh I never thought of WC before that season.  In my mind they were very similar to Ursinus.  And if you go back and look at records beginning around 2008 the records of those two schools look pretty similar.  WC never even made the CC playoffs until 2016.  That said, WC was for real in 2021, pretty good last year, and now obviously in the Final Four.  I think I picked the as having a good chance....and like all teams that make it you have to have a bit of good fortune.  They've gotten out to 1-0 leads including when getting crushed in the stats battle vs Mary Wash.  Out of the four remaining teams I think WC has to be considered the underdog, which of course doesn't mean they won't win the whole thing.  The Comber kid is a heckuva player.

As for W&L, it does feel a bit like they were lurking in the wings under the radar.  I didn't see their run coming.  I think the Generals were fortunate to play Tufts in the Sweet 16 which was the right spot to knock off the Jumbos.  An Elite 8 matchup I think would have been tougher and of course even though sounds like most feel W&L carried the play the game with CC obviously could have gone either way.  That said, W&L on the back of a very good near-decade and two Final Four appearances within a three year stretch and a Sweet 16 in between imo has elevated to #6 in the "current top programs" list and is knocking on the door of top 5. 

No predictions, but I think W&L is most prepared to get by Amherst....and if W&L gets by Amherst, either WC or St Olaf would have a good chance to beat W&L.  I don't see WC or St Olaf beating Amherst, although St Olaf hanging with and winning over Chicago are encouraging.

On a much happier note, kudos to the Falcon women, who defeated John Carroll 1-0 in the Elite Eight, advancing to the Final Four for the 15th time. Tufts advanced on the other side of the bracket, so the long-awaited Tufts-Messiah game might actually happen this year.  :)

W&L has some championship pedigree with at least one of their players, sophomore Alec Perez.  Alec played for Cardinal Gibbons High School in Raleigh and won not one, but two, NC state 4A championships.  The first was in the shortened season due to the pandemic.  The boys season was shortened and moved from the Fall of 2020 to the Spring of 2021.  Just getting through that season was a challenge for all of the boys--not if there would be a quarantine protocol but a matter of when.  A year and a half later Alec and Cardinal Gibbons won a second NC state championship.

To the chagrin of my son who played for a rival high school that Gibbons championship team was stacked.  Some of the boys landed at NC State, St Bonaventure, UNC Charlotte, Catholic U, and Alec at W&L, among others.

I see Amherst as a much more forbidding opponent than Washington College. But, I certainly hope you are right that we are prepared to take Amherst on, Paul Newman.

On a lighter note....watching the USMNT game against T&T....i have PTSD watching a horrible field (Amherst's Hitchock) and hearing the horrible cowbells (from Middlebury's past) that remind of the worst from the NESCAC.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 20, 2023, 06:33:06 PM
As for W&L, it does feel a bit like they were lurking in the wings under the radar.  I didn't see their run coming.

I didn't follow their entire season, but it did seem they rearranged their lineup after some early disappointing games, maybe after the Roanoke loss?  Not sure if they stuck with it for the remainder of the season or if that was the even the reason for the turn around.  Either way they went on to win all but 2 games vs CNU and Lynchburg.  Perhaps one of the W&L faithful could confirm (or deny.). If this is true it would be great to hear about the changes and why they were effective.

Quote from: Another Mom on November 20, 2023, 07:23:48 PM
I see Amherst as a much more forbidding opponent than Washington College. But, I certainly hope you are right that we are prepared to take Amherst on, Paul Newman.

Absolutely.  But that's why I said compared to the other two teams I think W&L has a better chance to beat Amherst.  So for me it follows that WC and St Olaf have a better chance of beating W&L than they would against Amherst.  W&L has experience at that level and just played Tufts at Tufts.  Also played Oneonta and some other strong teams like CNU and Lynchburg.  I can't remember off the top of my head if they played Mary Wash.  Anyway, if W&L loses I don't think it will be because they aren't physically prepared for the Mammoths.  That said, the Amherst size is an overwhelming advantage against all of them and hard to keep them off the board on all their set pieces.  They are quite skilled at getting themselves chances in the six yard box...whatever it takes is what they'll do.  Btw, I don't think Amherst is quite as much kick and run as gets talked about here.  Ada and Nuhu and several others maintain possession and look for combination play, overlaps, etc.  Let's be honest.  Amherst is loaded when you start thinking about those two and also Murphy, Sung, Cubeddu, Hayton-Ruffner, Eden-Clark, Novak, McCarty, etc.

Quote from: coach analytics on November 20, 2023, 07:27:29 PM
On a lighter note....watching the USMNT game against T&T....i have PTSD watching a horrible field (Amherst's Hitchock) and hearing the horrible cowbells (from Middlebury's past) that remind of the worst from the NESCAC.

Lighter note??  USMNT, what at train wreck that is.  What a dope Dest is!

Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 20, 2023, 08:37:56 PM

Quote from: coach analytics on November 20, 2023, 07:27:29 PM
On a lighter note....watching the USMNT game against T&T....i have PTSD watching a horrible field (Amherst's Hitchock) and hearing the horrible cowbells (from Middlebury's past) that remind of the worst from the NESCAC.

Lighter note??  USMNT, what at train wreck that is.  What a dope Dest is!

Yes, made that post before Dest's antics....maybe the most stupid red card I have ever seen. He was complaint about an out of bounds call at midfield.

He was pissed about a non-call about 45 seconds earlier.  There's no planet/universe where that's enough to lose his **** like that.

Kid needs therapy.

Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 20, 2023, 09:05:34 PM
He was pissed about a non-call about 45 seconds earlier.  There's no planet/universe where that's enough to lose his **** like that.

Kid needs therapy.

Did like how Ream and Muhlenberg reject Turner gave him the business going off the field.  Well deserved and showing leadership. FYI Dest is 23 so he knows better.

Good Luck to the teams, families and friends (other than Amherst ;)) headed to VA next week! Cherish the moments as they will be gone in a flash.

Happy Thanksgiving to all the great personalities that keep this board so amusing!

Quote from: SKUD on November 21, 2023, 11:00:07 AM
Good Luck to the teams, families and friends (other than Amherst ;)) headed to VA next week! Cherish the moments as they will be gone in a flash.

Thanks Skud, even if it's just bad luck, Mammoths will just have to make do with that.  I know everyone here will be most pleased to know that I will be there and am really looking forward to whatever comes.

Happy Thanksgiving to all the great personalities that keep this board so amusing!

And of course, Happy Thanksgiving to all.

Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 20, 2023, 10:11:09 PM

Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 20, 2023, 09:05:34 PM
He was pissed about a non-call about 45 seconds earlier.  There's no planet/universe where that's enough to lose his **** like that.

Kid needs therapy.

Did like how Ream and Muhlenberg reject Turner gave him the business going off the field.  Well deserved and showing leadership. FYI Dest is 23 so he knows better.

Did appreciate Dest's apology after game.

I want to apologize to my Teammates, Staff, Fans and whole nation for my behaviour it was unacceptable, Selfish and immature I let my team down! It's something I have to learn from and it won't happen again!

Respectfully, that's about the bare minimum. Don't know what he said in the locker room, but he's going to have to really fix is attitude and show remorse in the next camp.

As most on this board know, players will forgive a guy for a couple of yellows and even a borderline red card. But doing something asinine to get tossed from a game doesn't just affect you. It obviously changes tactics, sub patterns, etc. Guys who thought they would get in the game are now on ice. But, and this is maybe where lay people might not understand, it means the guys left on the field have to work that much harder to finish out the game.

That's not a minor issue. These are professionals who have massive work loads for their club and country. Forcing guys to put in 110 percent when that game was pretty much under wraps is inexcusable.

I like Dest on the field, but you could tell he was a bit of head case at times. Hopefully the coaching staff and his veteran teammates can help him mature.

/threadjack

Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 21, 2023, 03:09:39 PM
Respectfully, that's about the bare minimum. Don't know what he said in the locker room, but he's going to have to really fix is attitude and show remorse in the next camp.

As most on this board know, players will forgive a guy for a couple of yellows and even a borderline red card. But doing something asinine to get tossed from a game doesn't just affect you. It obviously changes tactics, sub patterns, etc. Guys who thought they would get in the game are now on ice. But, and this is maybe where lay people might not understand, it means the guys left on the field have to work that much harder to finish out the game.

That's not a minor issue. These are professionals who have massive work loads for their club and country. Forcing guys to put in 110 percent when that game was pretty much under wraps is inexcusable.

I like Dest on the field, but you could tell he was a bit of head case at times. Hopefully the coaching staff and his veteran teammates can help him mature.

/threadjack

Well said.  Great points.

Happy Thanksgiving!

I will understand if Midd fans abstain from responding, but despite Midd not necessarily being one of my favorite teams I do feel a weird kinship (perhaps family connections to VT and the town but mostly because of Kenyon), and I can feel the massive disappointment.  I wonder what folks affiliated with or who were there think happened.  I know some including Amherst noted the Amherst lockdown defense, but was there anything else?  Did having to come back from down 2-0 to Cortland take a toll?  Did Midd get too caught up in making sure they didn't get punked...and maybe lost a little focus? 

I thought it was a 50/50 deal with Amherst, but I thought Midd was going to get it done...exactly as I felt a few times with Kenyon, including last year after beating Calvin and W&L (7-1 on aggregate) back to back and only needing to get by Williams at home.  That Kenyon team last year was really, really good...like "best Kenyon team ever" and national title good...but unfortunately they just didn't get to what clearly seemed in reach.  It's a testament to how good Middlebury was to presume without any doubt that they are experiencing massive disappointment.

From my perspective, the nightmare scenario was Amherst scoring first and then making the game ugly.  Midd was much better on turf with respect to passing and ball movement.  The Amherst field does not play to their strengths.  The loss of William O'Brien was a huge blow.  He did not play in any of the postseason games, and it is not an accident that both of their losses on the season came with him out of the line up.  Every team experiences injuries, but Midd lost two of their best players to season ending injuries in Farrell and O'Brien.  Amherst took away the combinations and attacks down the flanks that Midd had thrived on. 

Nice to see the board is back up again. Sadly the weekend weather is looking less than cooperative.

Friday high 40s/low50s degrees with a 70% chance of rain
Sunday 50s with a 60% chance of rain.

The temps are fine, that chance of rain though. Cold drizzle is less than optimal.

Quote from: jknezek on November 27, 2023, 10:45:31 AM
Nice to see the board is back up again. Sadly the weekend weather is looking less than cooperative.

Friday high 40s/low50s degrees with a 70% chance of rain
Sunday 50s with a 60% chance of rain.

The temps are fine, that chance of rain though. Cold drizzle is less than optimal.

At least it will be on turf.

Turf sucks

Quote from: SKUD on November 27, 2023, 10:21:38 PM
Turf sucks

Maybe so, but very few programs have decent grass fields like in the Eng. Premier League and most don't hold up through the season.

While I don't like turf for soccer, Kerr Stadium is quite nice for a D3 facility. Given the weather, playing on a natural grass field could be very messy this weekend. I'd prefer that not to be a factor in these games, especially since, given the remaining teams in the field and what I know of their styles of play, I suspect Amherst would have the biggest advantage on a sloppy field.

I'm old enough to have played on some truly terrible turf fields. Homewood's main requirement was that a lacrosse ball would roll smoothly, so for most of my time there the turf was basically like the plastic stuff folks would roll over their backyard patio. My junior consisted of 3-a-day training sessions and my hips and outside thighs were so chewed up I'd stick to the sheets at night.

So when I hear people complain about today's version of turf I can only shake my head ruefully.

Now get off my lawn.

Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 28, 2023, 09:31:16 AM
I'm old enough to have played on some truly terrible turf fields. Homewood's main requirement was that a lacrosse ball would roll smoothly, so for most of my time there the turf was basically like the plastic stuff folks would roll over their backyard patio. My junior consisted of 3-a-day training sessions and my hips and outside thighs were so chewed up I'd stick to the sheets at night.

So when I hear people complain about today's version of turf I can only shake my head ruefully.

Now get off my lawn.

I'm with you. I played on Baldwin Wallace's Finnie Stadium turf in my youth back when it was a novelty. I would describe it as worse than the backyard patio turf. It was more like those welcome mats with sharpened blades and it was rolled on top off a concrete surface with no padding.  Today's version of artificial turf is heaven by comparison.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 23, 2023, 10:56:14 PM
I will understand if Midd fans abstain from responding, but despite Midd not necessarily being one of my favorite teams I do feel a weird kinship (perhaps family connections to VT and the town but mostly because of Kenyon), and I can feel the massive disappointment.  I wonder what folks affiliated with or who were there think happened.  I know some including Amherst noted the Amherst lockdown defense, but was there anything else?  Did having to come back from down 2-0 to Cortland take a toll?  Did Midd get too caught up in making sure they didn't get punked...and maybe lost a little focus? 

I thought it was a 50/50 deal with Amherst, but I thought Midd was going to get it done...exactly as I felt a few times with Kenyon, including last year after beating Calvin and W&L (7-1 on aggregate) back to back and only needing to get by Williams at home.  That Kenyon team last year was really, really good...like "best Kenyon team ever" and national title good...but unfortunately they just didn't get to what clearly seemed in reach.  It's a testament to how good Middlebury was to presume without any doubt that they are experiencing massive disappointment.

I would love to respond to this, but I'll wait until after the games this weekend. Rare moment of magnanimity from Bucket, ceding the spotlight to the four teams playing for a championship.  ;)

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 23, 2023, 10:56:14 PM
I thought it was a 50/50 deal with Amherst, but I thought Midd was going to get it done...exactly as I felt a few times with Kenyon, including last year after beating Calvin and W&L (7-1 on aggregate) back to back and only needing to get by Williams at home.  That Kenyon team last year was really, really good...like "best Kenyon team ever" and national title good...but unfortunately they just didn't get to what clearly seemed in reach.  It's a testament to how good Middlebury was to presume without any doubt that they are experiencing massive disappointment.

There is more to being the 'best X team ever' than just winning games. How your players & coaches carry themselves before, during, and after games are part of the equation. Kenyon might have had some skill last year, but they didn't have the other 'stuff'. I know of a son of a Kenyon alum who ended up playing for Tufts this year (his freshman year) because his father was appalled at how the Kenyon soccer program carried itself in seasons prior. I'm sure we can say similar things about Amherst in recent years. They may have enough skill to win the title, but I would never consider a program like that 'the best ever' regardless of the results on the field. There is so much more to this sport (like many others) than simply putting the ball into the back of the net, or preventing it from happening. My two cents.

Quote from: southsidejet on November 29, 2023, 11:20:44 AM

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 23, 2023, 10:56:14 PM
I thought it was a 50/50 deal with Amherst, but I thought Midd was going to get it done...exactly as I felt a few times with Kenyon, including last year after beating Calvin and W&L (7-1 on aggregate) back to back and only needing to get by Williams at home.  That Kenyon team last year was really, really good...like "best Kenyon team ever" and national title good...but unfortunately they just didn't get to what clearly seemed in reach.  It's a testament to how good Middlebury was to presume without any doubt that they are experiencing massive disappointment.

There is more to being the 'best X team ever' than just winning games. How your players & coaches carry themselves before, during, and after games are part of the equation. Kenyon might have had some skill last year, but they didn't have the other 'stuff'. I know of a son of a Kenyon alum who ended up playing for Tufts this year (his freshman year) because his father was appalled at how the Kenyon soccer program carried itself in seasons prior. I'm sure we can say similar things about Amherst in recent years. They may have enough skill to win the title, but I would never consider a program like that 'the best ever' regardless of the results on the field. There is so much more to this sport (like many others) than simply putting the ball into the back of the net, or preventing it from happening. My two cents.

Obviously I could be wrong, southsidejet, but this felt a little random and opportunistic, like you've been holding on to irritation about Kenyon for a while and finally found what you thought was a nice avenue for expressing it.  In any case, a very interesting post.

First, I'm sure your friend is pleased that you brought him into the discussion.  Is that person the primary source of your take, or have you had your own observations?  What exactly did the parent hear or observe that was so noxious?  When you say Kenyon didn't have "the stuff" last year, what exactly is "the stuff"?  Kenyon was 19-1-1 heading into the Elite 8 game, so yes, a lot of winning and talent.  Four AAs, swept most of the top conference awards, and that doesn't account for two of the players who were on that team who won the top awards in NCAC and may be AAs this year.  You tell me how many teams would have beaten Calvin and W&L back to back.  So what was their downfall?  Please be as specific as you can about weaknesses and transgressions.  How has Kenyon "carried itself"?  You also said your friend's opinion was based on being appalled by prior years, so not exactly sure how that translates to last year's edition.

Let's temporarily agree that Kenyon is bereft of character and no parent should want to send a kid there.  What does that have to do with saying last year's team was in the running for "best Kenyon team ever"?  That statement would only apply in comparison to all of the Kenyon teams over the years....as there were no claims about "best ever" in comparison to any other programs around the country or regarding D3 in general. 

Putting Kenyon in the same category with Amherst seems a little much, given that the concerns about Amherst have been steady and constant, and in sync across dozens of posters linked to a multitude of schools all across the country just on this site for more than a decade.  Until your post, which is quite vague with no details, over the past 10 years I only recall two swipes at Kenyon on the behavior measure (as a program and not just an individual player), and both were made by one person immediately after Kenyon lost to Messiah in 2013 and 2021...and the swipes were just that Kenyon was too physical.  I've never seen a claim about Kenyon's behavior and character writ large, unless you're only referring to some not finding Coach Brown warm and fuzzy.  But in all seriousness, I'd like to know, and if there are legit complaints about Kenyon's behavior I also would like Coach Wall to know so that he can assess if anything needs to be addressed.  I am very willing to be critical (and have been) of my preferred school/team, and if there are issues that need to be addressed I am all for them coming into the light of day.  I'm serious.  Give us some details.

The comparison with Tufts also was interesting, as Tufts and Kenyon, while both great schools, are not really overlap schools.  Tufts is more like the UAAs and so someone who has Kenyon on their prospective list is more likely to also have Midd, Colby, Bates, Hamilton, Conn, etc among the NESCAC group rather than Tufts.  So maybe the kid (and his parents) just really liked and preferred Tufts...unless you're saying the kid wanted to go to Kenyon but didn't because the family was so exposed to the Kenyon toxicity.  On second read (see bold italics above in your post) you did say he went to Tufts BECAUSE of the father being appalled by the Kenyon soccer program, which would suggest he otherwise would have matriculated at Kenyon. 

As an aside, can you provide some color on JCU's late season struggles?  Why do you OAC folks prefer to talk about a team that bothers you so much instead of providing content about all the really good OAC programs?  I've talked up your schools way more than you guys have.  I was convinced that JCU was a top-tier serious contender, probably on par with a Middlebury.  Injuries?  Just not quite as good as we thought?  To come full circle, I truly thought JCU with a very senior-laden, experienced squad with very talented additions was going to be very similar to last year's Kenyon team. 

Quote from: southsidejet on November 29, 2023, 11:20:44 AM

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 23, 2023, 10:56:14 PM
I thought it was a 50/50 deal with Amherst, but I thought Midd was going to get it done...exactly as I felt a few times with Kenyon, including last year after beating Calvin and W&L (7-1 on aggregate) back to back and only needing to get by Williams at home.  That Kenyon team last year was really, really good...like "best Kenyon team ever" and national title good...but unfortunately they just didn't get to what clearly seemed in reach.  It's a testament to how good Middlebury was to presume without any doubt that they are experiencing massive disappointment.

There is more to being the 'best X team ever' than just winning games. How your players & coaches carry themselves before, during, and after games are part of the equation. Kenyon might have had some skill last year, but they didn't have the other 'stuff'. I know of a son of a Kenyon alum who ended up playing for Tufts this year (his freshman year) because his father was appalled at how the Kenyon soccer program carried itself in seasons prior. I'm sure we can say similar things about Amherst in recent years. They may have enough skill to win the title, but I would never consider a program like that 'the best ever' regardless of the results on the field. There is so much more to this sport (like many others) than simply putting the ball into the back of the net, or preventing it from happening. My two cents.

I don't know, Southside, this seems a little out of left field to me.   When my (senior) son's team was beaten by Kenyon in the tournament last year, he was the next to last player to leave the field, no doubt finding it hard to swallow the emotion of a career suddenly ending on that Ohio pitch.  The last player to leave?  One of the Kenyon kids who stayed well past everyone else to console him.  It was quite a show of compassion and sportsmanship.

When we are talking about a "best [school] team ever," I think we are invariably talking about wins and championships.  If this year's W&L team were to win the tourney, we will very clearly be talking about them as the "best W&L team ever," but I have have always thought the 2020 version had the very best talent.  Difference is, this team is still winning.

As for whether I would want my kid to attend X school or play for Y coach, that's an entirely different matter.   

The best team does not always win, everyone remembers that Dutch team in the World Cup, this year in NESCAC: the order for me is Mid, Conn, Tufts and then Amherst, yet Amherst is the last one standing and will win it all.

Quote from: camosfan on November 29, 2023, 07:50:40 PM
yet Amherst is the last one standing and will win it all.

(https://media.tenor.com/KLaxnxi-NIQAAAAd/no-michael-scott.gif)

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 29, 2023, 06:43:42 PM

Quote from: southsidejet on November 29, 2023, 11:20:44 AM

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 23, 2023, 10:56:14 PM
I thought it was a 50/50 deal with Amherst, but I thought Midd was going to get it done...exactly as I felt a few times with Kenyon, including last year after beating Calvin and W&L (7-1 on aggregate) back to back and only needing to get by Williams at home.  That Kenyon team last year was really, really good...like "best Kenyon team ever" and national title good...but unfortunately they just didn't get to what clearly seemed in reach.  It's a testament to how good Middlebury was to presume without any doubt that they are experiencing massive disappointment.

There is more to being the 'best X team ever' than just winning games. How your players & coaches carry themselves before, during, and after games are part of the equation. Kenyon might have had some skill last year, but they didn't have the other 'stuff'. I know of a son of a Kenyon alum who ended up playing for Tufts this year (his freshman year) because his father was appalled at how the Kenyon soccer program carried itself in seasons prior. I'm sure we can say similar things about Amherst in recent years. They may have enough skill to win the title, but I would never consider a program like that 'the best ever' regardless of the results on the field. There is so much more to this sport (like many others) than simply putting the ball into the back of the net, or preventing it from happening. My two cents.

Obviously I could be wrong, southsidejet, but this felt a little random and opportunistic, like you've been holding on to irritation about Kenyon for a while and finally found what you thought was a nice avenue for expressing it.  In any case, a very interesting post.

First, I'm sure your friend is pleased that you brought him into the discussion.  Is that person the primary source of your take, or have you had your own observations?  What exactly did the parent hear or observe that was so noxious?  When you say Kenyon didn't have "the stuff" last year, what exactly is "the stuff"?  Kenyon was 19-1-1 heading into the Elite 8 game, so yes, a lot of winning and talent.  Four AAs, swept most of the top conference awards, and that doesn't account for two of the players who were on that team who won the top awards in NCAC and may be AAs this year.  You tell me how many teams would have beaten Calvin and W&L back to back.  So what was their downfall?  Please be as specific as you can about weaknesses and transgressions.  How has Kenyon "carried itself"?  You also said your friend's opinion was based on being appalled by prior years, so not exactly sure how that translates to last year's edition.

Let's temporarily agree that Kenyon is bereft of character and no parent should want to send a kid there.  What does that have to do with saying last year's team was in the running for "best Kenyon team ever"?  That statement would only apply in comparison to all of the Kenyon teams over the years....as there were no claims about "best ever" in comparison to any other programs around the country or regarding D3 in general. 

Putting Kenyon in the same category with Amherst seems a little much, given that the concerns about Amherst have been steady and constant, and in sync across dozens of posters linked to a multitude of schools all across the country just on this site for more than a decade.  Until your post, which is quite vague with no details, over the past 10 years I only recall two swipes at Kenyon on the behavior measure (as a program and not just an individual player), and both were made by one person immediately after Kenyon lost to Messiah in 2013 and 2021...and the swipes were just that Kenyon was too physical.  I've never seen a claim about Kenyon's behavior and character writ large, unless you're only referring to some not finding Coach Brown warm and fuzzy.  But in all seriousness, I'd like to know, and if there are legit complaints about Kenyon's behavior I also would like Coach Wall to know so that he can assess if anything needs to be addressed.  I am very willing to be critical (and have been) of my preferred school/team, and if there are issues that need to be addressed I am all for them coming into the light of day.  I'm serious.  Give us some details.

The comparison with Tufts also was interesting, as Tufts and Kenyon, while both great schools, are not really overlap schools.  Tufts is more like the UAAs and so someone who has Kenyon on their prospective list is more likely to also have Midd, Colby, Bates, Hamilton, Conn, etc among the NESCAC group rather than Tufts.  So maybe the kid (and his parents) just really liked and preferred Tufts...unless you're saying the kid wanted to go to Kenyon but didn't because the family was so exposed to the Kenyon toxicity.  On second read (see bold italics above in your post) you did say he went to Tufts BECAUSE of the father being appalled by the Kenyon soccer program, which would suggest he otherwise would have matriculated at Kenyon. 

As an aside, can you provide some color on JCU's late season struggles?  Why do you OAC folks prefer to talk about a team that bothers you so much instead of providing content about all the really good OAC programs?  I've talked up your schools way more than you guys have.  I was convinced that JCU was a top-tier serious contender, probably on par with a Middlebury.  Injuries?  Just not quite as good as we thought?  To come full circle, I truly thought JCU with a very senior-laden, experienced squad with very talented additions was going to be very similar to last year's Kenyon team.

Paul, I'll try to answer you questions:

Not really random, something between all of the earlier Amherst posts and then your post compelled me to respond. Let's just say a button was pushed. I'm a big believer of sportsmanship & maturity in college sports being just as important as wins. I attended last year's game in University Hts. and was shocked at how your players & coaches carried on after the game was over. There's something to say about winning with class, and this was pretty much the opposite. I didn't post about it when it happened, nor after the JCU win in Gambier this past fall. But, like I said, a button was pushed when I read 'best team ever' about that group.

Regarding the Kenyon alum who's son passed on Kenyon... not a friend but someone who approached me this season and volunteered his insight on multiple Kenyon games they had attended last year while his son was considering playing for them. He witnessed similar incidents at multiple games before they decided to pass. Perhaps this is why that head coach was no longer employed after such a great season?

If you read some of my posts from 4 years ago I DID give props to both your team's and OWU's style of play. I've played, coached, and watched thousands of games and am a bit of a futbol snob. College soccer rarely does it for me, too much kick ball & physicality, not enough 'beautiful game'. But those two squads could move the ball around and were enjoyable to watch.

I'll refrain from commenting on JCU's season, those boys gave it everything they had down the stretch. Suffice to say, outside of the second round loss to Mary Washington, injuries weren't an issue. 

Quote from: paclassic89 on November 29, 2023, 08:05:55 PM

Quote from: camosfan on November 29, 2023, 07:50:40 PM
yet Amherst is the last one standing and will win it all.

(https://media.tenor.com/KLaxnxi-NIQAAAAd/no-michael-scott.gif)

Gotta say, I am comfortable with this, but hopefully my presence in Virginia won't be an unnecessary weight on the team.

Southside, I understand the reluctance to be more specific, but it makes it hard to assess if behavior is egregious without details.  You said players and coaches.  Don't know if you also meant fans, but either way it's hard to know if whatever sparked you was truly out of the norm or a reflection of what we often see between big rivals where there is some history/bad blood.  I've only seen matches with JCU by video but from what I've observed and heard about Kenyon vs JCU are chippy matches and I would have guessed with JCU being the chippier of the two.  I think of JCU as being very physical (not dirty) with a vibe of "you're about to go through 90 minutes of hell playing us."  That's a compliment.
Makes sense to me that among players and fans there could be some occasional ugliness, especially from the perspective of whoever is on the losing end in a given year.  They clearly don't like each other.  You don't like Kenyon, and I don't like JCU.  That all seems pretty normal to me within reason.  We are talking about the top two programs in Region VII since 2015ish.

As for Tufts, I've been to several of their games in person, against, like, Amherst, and I'd be shocked if what you and the other guy experienced exceeds what I've seen at Tufts or have observed when playing OWU or Denison or CMU.  If we're gonna slam a team and leave a deeply negative impression on a public board, especially based to a significant degree on a singular hearsay report, seems like we should know exactly what we're talking about.

As for Brown, I'm no insider, but I haven't gotten any sense that he was pushed out at all.  Imo he gave everything he had to win a national title and he just couldn't quite get there.  I think he was exhausted.  Was he often on the dislike side of a dislike/like meter?  I would guess he was.  He no doubt is not for everybody, but he did his job in the sense of being singularly focused on getting to Final Fours and a title for the school.  He also put Kenyon on the national map and at the forefront of Region VII, and kept them there where before the gap between OWU and programs like Kenyon, JCU, CWRU, etc was large.  Where teams like Kenyon and JCU are now relative to OWU would have been nearly unimaginable 12-15 years ago.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 29, 2023, 10:54:41 PM
Southside, I understand the reluctance to be more specific, but it makes it hard to assess if behavior is egregious without details.  You said players and coaches.  Don't know if you also meant fans, but either way it's hard to know if whatever sparked you was truly out of the norm or a reflection of what we often see between big rivals where there is some history/bad blood.  I've only seen matches with JCU by video but from what I've observed and heard about Kenyon vs JCU are chippy matches and I would have guessed with JCU being the chippier of the two.  I think of JCU as being very physical (not dirty) with a vibe of "you're about to go through 90 minutes of hell playing us."  That's a compliment.
Makes sense to me that among players and fans there could be some occasional ugliness, especially from the perspective of whoever is on the losing end in a given year.  They clearly don't like each other.  You don't like Kenyon, and I don't like JCU.  That all seems pretty normal to me within reason.  We are talking about the top two programs in Region VII since 2015ish.

As for Tufts, I've been to several of their games in person, against, like, Amherst, and I'd be shocked if what you and the other guy experienced exceeds what I've seen at Tufts or have observed when playing OWU or Denison or CMU.  If we're gonna slam a team and leave a deeply negative impression on a public board, especially based to a significant degree on a singular hearsay report, seems like we should know exactly what we're talking about.

As for Brown, I'm no insider, but I haven't gotten any sense that he was pushed out at all.  Imo he gave everything he had to win a national title and he just couldn't quite get there.  I think he was exhausted.  Was he often on the dislike side of a dislike/like meter?  I would guess he was.  He no doubt is not for everybody, but he did his job in the sense of being singularly focused on getting to Final Fours and a title for the school.  He also put Kenyon on the national map and at the forefront of Region VII, and kept them there where before the gap between OWU and programs like Kenyon, JCU, CWRU, etc was large.  Where teams like Kenyon and JCU are now relative to OWU would have been nearly unimaginable 12-15 years ago.

Paul, the antics were on the sidelines after the game had ended. Taunts in the handshake line, childish chants afterwards. One of your coaches was also involved shoving a JCU player. Similar incidents at other games were reported by the other parent I had mentioned. Nothing involving parents or fans. If you feel this is 'normal' and 'just part of a rivalry' then you and I have different opinions of what sportsmanship entails. There was none of this after JCU won back in September, they kept everything on the field and were gracious winners afterwards... the way it's supposed to be handled.

You can believe what you'd like, but I know what I saw / heard (in-person, not over video) and would put it right up there with some of the things Amherst tends to be accused of on the board. And, again, my two cents. We all have different levels of what we find acceptable.

Sorry for hijacking the Final Four threads, please carry on. Good luck to all 3 teams this weekend! ;)

Southside, I don't want to believe what I like. What I'd like is data...and you're still being quite vague. If you're putting Kenyon behavior on the level of Amherst I'd like to know more about that.  And if it's true or even close to true I want it stopped. I've seen pretty vigorous jawing from JCU and a few scuffles, perhaps including at end of Mary Wash game. Would never occur to me to talk about Amherst and JCU in the same sentence.

Also, if as bad as you suggest, I wonder why we're only hearing about it now and why you've let this fester for well over a year. We also have not seen a flurry of similar critiques over the years. Strange.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 30, 2023, 10:20:10 AM
Southside, I don't want to believe what I like. What I'd like is data...and you're still being quite vague. If you're putting Kenyon behavior on the level of Amherst I'd like to know more about that.  And if it's true or even close to true I want it stopped. I've seen pretty vigorous jawing from JCU and a few scuffles, perhaps including at end of Mary Wash game. Would never occur to me to talk about Amherst and JCU in the same sentence.

Also, if as bad as you suggest, I wonder why we're only hearing about it now and why you've let this fester for well over a year. We also have not seen a flurry of similar critiques over the years. Strange.

Data? Lol. I told you what transpired. Now I have to explain why I didn't post about something over a year ago? If you continue to deflect hard enough your Owls might actually come out clean on the other end! That coach is gone, and many of those players are gone. Nothing to be done at this point and that wasn't the intention of my original post (sportsmanship being an important component of a 'great' team). Enjoy your offseason, we've beat this one to death already.

Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 28, 2023, 09:31:16 AM
I'm old enough to have played on some truly terrible turf fields. Homewood's main requirement was that a lacrosse ball would roll smoothly, so for most of my time there the turf was basically like the plastic stuff folks would roll over their backyard patio. My junior consisted of 3-a-day training sessions and my hips and outside thighs were so chewed up I'd stick to the sheets at night.

The field was literally green plastic velcro with cement underneath. Everyone played in flats, unless it rained, in which case you wore turf shoes (Beckenbauers). The upside was that we had the only turf field in the conference. We almost never lost at home. The other teams would wear regular cleats on the field and would typically have significant problems with their footing.

Quote from: Hopkins Walk-On on November 30, 2023, 11:41:10 AM

Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 28, 2023, 09:31:16 AM
I'm old enough to have played on some truly terrible turf fields. Homewood's main requirement was that a lacrosse ball would roll smoothly, so for most of my time there the turf was basically like the plastic stuff folks would roll over their backyard patio. My junior consisted of 3-a-day training sessions and my hips and outside thighs were so chewed up I'd stick to the sheets at night.

The field was literally green plastic velcro with cement underneath. Everyone played in flats, unless it rained, in which case you wore turf shoes (Beckenbauers). The upside was that we had the only turf field in the conference. We almost never lost at home. The other teams would wear regular cleats on the field and would typically have significant problems with their footing.

Not to mention the weight of passes... It would befuddle most teams.

#condemhomewood. Worst field in D1&D3

Quote from: SKUD on November 30, 2023, 02:16:10 PM
#condemhomewood. Worst field in D1&D3

I mean... not no mo'. As you can see/extrapolate from my handle... I'm old.

Still waiting for a reference to that surface's heat during summer workouts.  As in melting the nubs of those Beck's making them Sambas...

Did not want to pile on as to Homewood. It is still bad. Rumor is that it will be resurfaced in the summer.

FYI the Balt Sun just ran an article on Washington College's coach, Roy Dunshee, and his success. Apparently according to the article he was an assistant coach at Amherst for a season in 2012. He then ended up coaching at Washington College. Also he owned an a local bar in Annapolis called Acme. Still a nice place. https://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/bs-sp-roy-dunshee-washington-college-mens-soccer-final-four-20231130-ryp5dzb5a5gubdseqfua7rw3zq-story.html
You all may not be able to access it without a subscription. True Renaissance man

but hopefully my presence in Virginia won't be an unnecessary weight on the team.

Today I was thinking about you not posting for sometime and said to myself, is he on that 16 hours flight from Sydney! ;D

Quote from: camosfan on November 30, 2023, 05:58:44 PM
but hopefully my presence in Virginia won't be an unnecessary weight on the team.

Today I was thinking about you not posting for sometime and said to myself, is he on that 16 hours flight from Sydney! ;D

Of course Camosfan, it's tragic in the extreme.  I had to explain a bemused immigration official at SFO that I was coming to watch my son play soccer.  I think it just didn't make sense to her.

I did have a funny incident today in Georgetown also.  Now, they aren't sponsoring my foul count, but I am a fan of Vineyard Vines and visited the shop there today.  I was chatting to the young man (makes me sound old) assisting me and when we established I was here for the soccer, supporting Amherst (and PN there is no way there is a 5pct support for The Mammoths on this board!) he suddenly showed me his belt which had a W&L logo on it and advised me he was a 2021 alum and knew one or two soccer players.  It's a small world.

Separately, I know there is an Australian on the St Olaf team, not sure if any of his family are here, but if they are, would love to try and catch up.

My friend, it is a rare experience, cherish it. There are thousands of us who would love to be in there.

Congrats to Washington & Lee GK Will Joseph who won the NCAA DIII Men's Soccer Elite 90 award! I particularly like the double major in accounting and classics.  Only a GK would have that combo!

https://generalssports.com/news/2023/11/30/mens-soccer-joseph-wins-elite-90-award-for-ncaa-division-iii-mens-soccer-championship.aspx#:~:text=The%20Elite%2090%20is%20presented,two%20years%20with%20their%20school.

QuoteWill Joseph, a sophomore at Washington and Lee University, is the recipient of the Elite 90 award for the 2023 NCAA Division III Men's Soccer Championship.

Joseph, majoring in accounting and classics, currently carries a 4.00 GPA. Joseph was presented the award during the men's soccer banquet on Thursday evening in Salem, Va., ahead of the national semifinals on Friday.

The Elite 90, an award founded by the NCAA, recognizes the true essence of the student-athlete by honoring the individual who has reached the pinnacle of competition at the national championship level in his or her sport, while also achieving the highest academic standard among his or her peers. The Elite 90 is presented to the student-athlete with the highest cumulative grade-point average participating at the finals site for each of the NCAA's championships.

Eligible student-athletes are sophomores or above academically who have participated in a sport for at least two years with their school. All ties are broken by the number of credits completed.

Surprised Kier has not mentioned the huge advantage W&L has with regard to familiarity of the host being a conference foe as ell as being just up 81 from Salem vs the other teams.

Turf though?  Just realized one semi-final has 2 teams with turf home fields and the other has 2 with natural grass home fields.  Weather in Salem is still looking poor especially tomorrow.  Could the conditions at Kerr have an impact?

Quote from: EnmoreCat on November 30, 2023, 08:29:27 PM

Quote from: camosfan on November 30, 2023, 05:58:44 PM

I did have a funny incident today in Georgetown also.  Now, they aren't sponsoring my foul count, but I am a fan of Vineyard Vines and visited the shop there today.  I was chatting to the young man (makes me sound old) assisting me and when we established I was here for the soccer, supporting Amherst (and PN there is no way there is a 5pct support for The Mammoths on this board!) he suddenly showed me his belt which had a W&L logo on it and advised me he was a 2021 alum and knew one or two soccer players.  It's a small world.

We're every where!!!

Quote from: Freddyfud on December 01, 2023, 12:10:51 AM
Turf though?  Just realized one semi-final has 2 teams with turf home fields and the other has 2 with natural grass home fields.  Weather in Salem is still looking poor especially tomorrow.  Could the conditions at Kerr have an impact?

I'm thinking not especially with W&L.  They may play on grass, but practice on turf. Amherst probably plays many games on turf and many if not most players spent their entire club careers and summer ball on turf.

Although, W&L are familiar with that exact field; and also, they can stay in Lexington with their familiar routines. There's also the fact that because salem is so close to Lexington there will be a larger cheering section, which could have an influence.

I am meeting Enmore and jknezek later today. So excited for this day to begin!

I do believe Amherst will prevail today because they are the most battle tested of all the teams remaining.  They played a very very difficult schedule and have proven the ability to win on the road.  They will be stout defensively, very dangerous on set pieces, and have game changing players on the outside in Nuhu and Ada O.

However, W&L showed me a lot a couple weekends ago by stealing one on Tufts home turf.  Their front four are very good and can possess the ball to create a lot of chances for their proven scorer.  Getting their CB 21 back from injury was critical although he almost cost them the game with a very clumsy tackle in the box late in the game.  They are very, very well coached, very experienced and remain organized throughout the game. Also, their GK is quite good.

I think their biggest weakness, which will play into one of Amherst strengths, is their outside defenders.  Tufts' wingers had a field day against them. Nuhu and Ada could be the difference makers.  Also how well will they handle the set piece prowess of Amherst?  They lack the size but not the toughness.

Even though I am a NESCAC fan, i will be rooting for the Generals after that Amherst Middlebury display of poor sportsmanship at the end of the game from the bulk of the Amherst players including Nuhu (who was becoming my favorite Amherst player).

W & L is a good team, like 22, 7 and 14, however I think they are a year early, this will be the team to beat next year, when a player like 28 picks up more experience.

Quote from: Another Mom on December 01, 2023, 04:38:31 AM
Although, W&L are familiar with that exact field; and also, they can stay in Lexington with their familiar routines. There's also the fact that because salem is so close to Lexington there will be a larger cheering section, which could have an influence.

I am meeting Enmore and jknezek later today. So excited for this day to begin!

Best of luck to today to your son and the team!!  PTBAG

i predict a washington coll v amherst final and like the shoremen to walk out as national champs

Quote from: FanofNescac on December 01, 2023, 08:54:17 AM
i predict a washington coll v amherst final and like the shoremen to walk out as national champs

If Wash Coll can keep Gaulmin and Morgan, LLC off the scoreboard for 90 or 110 minutes they will deserve to be in the final, at which point who wouldn't love to be down to a single match for a national title?  They already kept a bunch of AAs and first team all region level type of guys off the scoreboard...the Isaacs from Otterbein, Duratovic and Dujakovich from Kenyon, Kirkland and Berg from Mary Wash, and Scoffone, Kreus, et al from Conn Coll.  As I type I'm thinking Otterbein did score so have to check that.

Quote from: PaulNewman on December 01, 2023, 10:20:08 AM

Quote from: FanofNescac on December 01, 2023, 08:54:17 AM
i predict a washington coll v amherst final and like the shoremen to walk out as national champs

If Wash Coll can keep Gaulmin and Morgan, LLC off the scoreboard for 90 or 110 minutes they will deserve to be in the final, at which point who wouldn't love to be down to a single match for a national title?  They already kept a bunch of AAs and first team all region level type of guys off the scoreboard...the Isaacs from Otterbein, Duratovic and Dujakovich from Kenyon, Kirkland and Berg from Mary Wash, and Scoffone, Kreus, et al from Conn Coll.  As I type I'm thinking Otterbein did score so have to check that.

Great points. On second thought, if Amherst gets back to the final. They will have players playign in their THIRD national title game..hard to imagine losing 3x. We will see

So, Tufts and Messiah STILL aren't gonna play (women).

Here is a view from Coach Singleton about playing in their backyard:

https://roanoke.com/sports/college/soccer/washington-and-lee-salem-ncaa-division-iii-mens-soccer-semifinals/article_309421ba-8fa8-11ee-a02b-c771f80ba680.html (https://roanoke.com/sports/college/soccer/washington-and-lee-salem-ncaa-division-iii-mens-soccer-semifinals/article_309421ba-8fa8-11ee-a02b-c771f80ba680.html)

I didn't realize W&L was constrained by a lack of graduate programs.  It seems as if the 2 seniors they lost were able to stay for a 5th year they would be much better than they already are. 

I know they have one of the best law programs in the country.  I guess I see "university" and incorrectly assume those constraints for 5th years don't apply (or maybe it helps them if an athlete is interested in pursuing a J.D.?)  I'd be curious as to general insight on how this works in practice.  But then again that 5th year of eligibility is expiring so maybe it will be moot.

I don't know how useful the 5year thing is, take Messiah this year they had 7, and went out early because one was injured. Graduate students tend to be guys who did not play much before they come to the new school!

Quote from: PaulNewman on December 01, 2023, 12:05:50 PM
So, Tufts and Messiah STILL aren't gonna play (women).

I would have assumed someone with your experience on the MEN's D3 board would know that there is a WOMEN's D3 board. oh my word!!!! :D :D :D :D :D

HAHAHAHA

Quote from: Freddyfud on December 01, 2023, 01:32:20 PM
Here is a view from Coach Singleton about playing in their backyard:

https://roanoke.com/sports/college/soccer/washington-and-lee-salem-ncaa-division-iii-mens-soccer-semifinals/article_309421ba-8fa8-11ee-a02b-c771f80ba680.html (https://roanoke.com/sports/college/soccer/washington-and-lee-salem-ncaa-division-iii-mens-soccer-semifinals/article_309421ba-8fa8-11ee-a02b-c771f80ba680.html)

I didn't realize W&L was constrained by a lack of graduate programs.  It seems as if the 2 seniors they lost were able to stay for a 5th year they would be much better than they already are. 

I know they have one of the best law programs in the country.  I guess I see "university" and incorrectly assume those constraints for 5th years don't apply (or maybe it helps them if an athlete is interested in pursuing a J.D.?)  I'd be curious as to general insight on how this works in practice.  But then again that 5th year of eligibility is expiring so maybe it will be moot.

In order to be a full-time student eligible to compete on a school's varsity athletic team as a "5th year", you either have to be enrolled in a grad program or have taken off a semester at some point so the fall season is actually your last year of study as an undergraduate.  In most liberal arts colleges in DIII, the 5th years on a school's varsity team are likely students who decided to withdraw from the school during some part of Covid or they are enrolled in some graduate program.  There are schools without grad programs of their own that have 3-2 undergrad-grad programs with consortium schools that do have grad programs, which could allow students to technically still be enrolled in the undergrad school even if they are taking primarily or exclusively grad school classes and therefore compete on the undergrad schools' teams.  The grad schools are usually local in those cases.  When they are not, the student plays with the undergrad team in which the grad program is affiliated, as if it was a transfer.  For example, some students have done a grad program at Claremont Graduate University and played their Covid 5th year with Claremont-Mudd-Scripps.  Andrew McSlarrow, who played 4 years at Dickinson I think, did that this year even though CGU is not part of Claremont-McKenna or Harvey Mudd, but rather part of the Claremont consortium of schools. I don't know if I have heard of many JD students trying to double up with a varsity sport in the fall of their first year of law school because the workload would be too intense, but there are some JD schools that offer a 1 year (sometimes online or part-time in evenings) Masters of Legal Studies degree that some students with eligibility do to stay in their sport.  I haven't seen it in a DIII school, but UCLA women's soccer had a player in 2021 who played her Covid 5th year by enrolling in the Law School's Masters in Legal Studies program.  Washington & Lee probably doesn't have that type of program that would permit a student to easily play soccer and go to school.

Quote from: Coach Jeff on December 01, 2023, 01:53:28 PM

Quote from: PaulNewman on December 01, 2023, 12:05:50 PM
So, Tufts and Messiah STILL aren't gonna play (women).

I would have assumed someone with your experience on the MEN's D3 board would know that there is a WOMEN's D3 board. oh my word!!!! :D :D :D :D :D

HAHAHAHA

I think he was just mocking the poster!

Quote from: Freddyfud on December 01, 2023, 01:32:20 PM
Here is a view from Coach Singleton about playing in their backyard:

https://roanoke.com/sports/college/soccer/washington-and-lee-salem-ncaa-division-iii-mens-soccer-semifinals/article_309421ba-8fa8-11ee-a02b-c771f80ba680.html (https://roanoke.com/sports/college/soccer/washington-and-lee-salem-ncaa-division-iii-mens-soccer-semifinals/article_309421ba-8fa8-11ee-a02b-c771f80ba680.html)

I didn't realize W&L was constrained by a lack of graduate programs.  It seems as if the 2 seniors they lost were able to stay for a 5th year they would be much better than they already are. 

I know they have one of the best law programs in the country.  I guess I see "university" and incorrectly assume those constraints for 5th years don't apply (or maybe it helps them if an athlete is interested in pursuing a J.D.?)  I'd be curious as to general insight on how this works in practice.  But then again that 5th year of eligibility is expiring so maybe it will be moot.

Thanks for shaing.  Good luck to all teams

Here's one bold, non-qualified, non-coach-speak statement from Singleton from the Roanoke article:

https://roanoke.com/sports/college/soccer/washington-and-lee-salem-ncaa-division-iii-mens-soccer-semifinals/article_309421ba-8fa8-11ee-a02b-c771f80ba680.html

Quote"That's one of the things I think is our advantage going into this final four. I think Will Joseph is the best of the four keepers playing in it," Singleton said.

Do people agree?  Will Joseph was first team USC All Region VI, but Anthony Pinto from Washington College was first team USC All Region V.  Joseph is taller, but Pinto had a lower GAA (.64 v. .89).  Both seem pretty commanding in their box and have cat-like reflexes.  Be interesting to watch.

I am bias towards Pinto ,he and his twin brother play on the same summer team as my son.

Quote from: Coach Jeff on December 01, 2023, 01:53:28 PM

Quote from: PaulNewman on December 01, 2023, 12:05:50 PM
So, Tufts and Messiah STILL aren't gonna play (women).

I would have assumed someone with your experience on the MEN's D3 board would know that there is a WOMEN's D3 board. oh my word!!!! :D :D :D :D :D

HAHAHAHA

LOL, Coach.  Glad to see you are enjoying yourself. 

Yes, I know there is a women's board.  I rarely browse that one.  Given how badly you got me and exposed me, I did check and see that Kuiper has 3 posts there in a tournament thread.  Oddly there is no discussion of the Tufts-Messiah connection, unless I'm missing something, and if I am please forward a link along.  As you may recall, and iirc, one of your Messiah friends made a remark on the MEN's board about not getting the long-awaited matchup on the men's side again this year while noting that indeed there was a chance they would face off in the women's Final Four.

1-0 Olaf with a banger of a goal.....

Foul count 3-1...definitely not a NESCAC game.

Announcer reminds me of Fred Willard in Best in Show

(https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/enhanced/terminal05/2012/7/19/11/enhanced-buzz-415-1342712947-1.jpg?downsize=600:*&output-format=auto&output-quality=auto)

He just mentioned the young man wearing glasses has superpowers.

WAC had 2 real good chances to score.  One hit the bar.  Pinto showed up.  And Strine just scored to level.  Good game so far.

Quote from: Newenglander on December 01, 2023, 04:08:51 PM
1-0 Olaf with a banger of a goal.....

Foul count 3-1...definitely not a NESCAC game.

Washington College ties it up 1-1 on a goal by Ben Strine in the 55th minute.

St Olaf CB with really bad giveaway in a very dangerous area leads to WC goal.  Just 3-4 minutes before the same St Olaf player almost had a horrific own goal.  Let's see if he can recover.

Quote from: Kuiper on December 01, 2023, 02:01:33 PM

Quote from: Freddyfud on December 01, 2023, 01:32:20 PM
Here is a view from Coach Singleton about playing in their backyard:

https://roanoke.com/sports/college/soccer/washington-and-lee-salem-ncaa-division-iii-mens-soccer-semifinals/article_309421ba-8fa8-11ee-a02b-c771f80ba680.html (https://roanoke.com/sports/college/soccer/washington-and-lee-salem-ncaa-division-iii-mens-soccer-semifinals/article_309421ba-8fa8-11ee-a02b-c771f80ba680.html)

I didn't realize W&L was constrained by a lack of graduate programs.  It seems as if the 2 seniors they lost were able to stay for a 5th year they would be much better than they already are. 

I know they have one of the best law programs in the country.  I guess I see "university" and incorrectly assume those constraints for 5th years don't apply (or maybe it helps them if an athlete is interested in pursuing a J.D.?)  I'd be curious as to general insight on how this works in practice.  But then again that 5th year of eligibility is expiring so maybe it will be moot.

In order to be a full-time student eligible to compete on a school's varsity athletic team as a "5th year", you either have to be enrolled in a grad program or have taken off a semester at some point so the fall season is actually your last year of study as an undergraduate.  In most liberal arts colleges in DIII, the 5th years on a school's varsity team are likely students who decided to withdraw from the school during some part of Covid or they are enrolled in some graduate program.  There are schools without grad programs of their own that have 3-2 undergrad-grad programs with consortium schools that do have grad programs, which could allow students to technically still be enrolled in the undergrad school even if they are taking primarily or exclusively grad school classes and therefore compete on the undergrad schools' teams.  The grad schools are usually local in those cases.  When they are not, the student plays with the undergrad team in which the grad program is affiliated, as if it was a transfer.  For example, some students have done a grad program at Claremont Graduate University and played their Covid 5th year with Claremont-Mudd-Scripps.  Andrew McSlarrow, who played 4 years at Dickinson I think, did that this year even though CGU is not part of Claremont-McKenna or Harvey Mudd, but rather part of the Claremont consortium of schools. I don't know if I have heard of many JD students trying to double up with a varsity sport in the fall of their first year of law school because the workload would be too intense, but there are some JD schools that offer a 1 year (sometimes online or part-time in evenings) Masters of Legal Studies degree that some students with eligibility do to stay in their sport.  I haven't seen it in a DIII school, but UCLA women's soccer had a player in 2021 who played her Covid 5th year by enrolling in the Law School's Masters in Legal Studies program.  Washington & Lee probably doesn't have that type of program that would permit a student to easily play soccer and go to school.

Tufts had a player play a full season while attending Tufts Medical School which was a pretty absurd accomplishment

Quote from: Kuiper on December 01, 2023, 04:19:18 PM

Quote from: Newenglander on December 01, 2023, 04:08:51 PM
1-0 Olaf with a banger of a goal.....

Foul count 3-1...definitely not a NESCAC game.

Washington College ties it up 1-1 on a goal by Ben Strine in the 55th minute.

Breakdown for WC defensively as a St. Olaf cross across the box to an open McKloskey who scores his second to make it St. Olaf 2 - Washington College 1 with about 17 minutes left in regulation

2-0 Olaf - Washington D not as stout as I've seen in the tournament.

Quote from: Kuiper on December 01, 2023, 04:41:04 PM

Quote from: Kuiper on December 01, 2023, 04:19:18 PM

Quote from: Newenglander on December 01, 2023, 04:08:51 PM
1-0 Olaf with a banger of a goal.....

Foul count 3-1...definitely not a NESCAC game.

Washington College ties it up 1-1 on a goal by Ben Strine in the 55th minute.

Breakdown for WC defensively as a St. Olaf cross across the box to an open McKloskey who scores his second to make it St. Olaf 2 - Washington College 1 with about 17 minutes left in regulation

St. Olaf 3 - Washington College 1

This one looks done and dusted.  WC giveaway on defense provides the Olies another good opportunity and they hammered it home.

Composure in the box to finish by St Olaf is the difference.  They go up 3-1.  Impressive.  And without Morgan who is hurt.

Great game.  My game notes.  (https://www.patreon.com/posts/mens-ncaa-st-v-93908572?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=postshare_creator&utm_content=join_link)

Great game.  St. Olaf definitely outplayed. Pinto played great. Roanoke's plays like an ice hockey rink without the boards.

Who wants to pay for those guys to go to announcing school?? Unbelievable.

Announcers were not bad, the streaming was not good for me since the women's games yesterday.

camosfan I agree the stream was not good. I do video production for a living and was annoyed to see each camera set to different exposures and white balance. Seemed like they had to cut to different cameras during second game PK's because the center camera was so dark. I expect that from student workers during the regular season but not for an NCAA hired crew. (Was told by an athletic comm friend there is a hired crew) A first world problem but nonetheless this is the championship it should look like it!

For anyone who was on site... did the field boundaries and corners seem dark? It looked like the lights did not fill the whole field with consistent light.

Going right to left on the screen, the left side corner flag is not adequately lighted.

Amherst 1 - W&L 0

That was a screamer of a goal off a poor headed clearance by the W&L defender. 

Joseph has been really aggressive in coming off his line to try to snuff out breakaways, but he almost got in trouble right before the goal with a clearance that went off the striker rather than being played out of trouble.

UPDATE:  Amherst 1 - W&L 0 at the Half

Amherst had the better of the chances even after the goal, including one Joseph pushed over the bar at close range, but it has mostly been a pretty physical game with neither side fully able to establish possession or productively able to connect enough threatening passes.  Could have been some yellows in the first half on both sides, but the ref seems to have made an effort to avoid going down that route too early.

And just like that, Amherst scores again 28 seconds into the second half

Amherst 2 - W&L 0

Some great athletes and creative ideas, but man this is hard to watch.  I don't recall seeing more than 3 successive passes from either side. There is no flow due to the amount of restarts and changes in possession.  One of W&L's backline players is having a rough game.

Edit:  and as soon as I say that W&L puts some passes together and scores.  Let's see if they can repeat.

This is how Amherst plays. They literally can not or refuse to play possession. Just kick it up to their trees up front.  W&L at least is trying to play possession.

Quote from: kevdog on December 01, 2023, 08:05:39 PM
This is how Amherst plays. They literally can not or refuse to play possession. Just kick it up to their trees up front.  W&L at least is trying to play possession.

Makes sense.  But if everyone knows this then why isn't W&L prepared?  Their midfielders are capable.

How many times is Amherst going to push someone over in the box and get away with it?  O/U 5

That was a fantastic low shot to tie.  Very smart.

Amherst #33 with another shove in the back but all he does is clear a shooting lane for W&L.  Something poetic about that. 

That is what happens when you just shoot the ball. Can get deflected and go in. Anything can happen when you do that.

Quote from: Freddyfud on December 01, 2023, 08:20:21 PM

Quote from: kevdog on December 01, 2023, 08:05:39 PM
This is how Amherst plays. They literally can not or refuse to play possession. Just kick it up to their trees up front.  W&L at least is trying to play possession.

Makes sense.  But if everyone knows this then why isn't W&L prepared?  Their midfielders are capable.

Teams try but Amherst have big guys who just close the space. They seem to score a lot of goals off of set pieces and long throw ins. It is not pretty but it has been effective for them

Quote from: kevdog on December 01, 2023, 08:33:21 PM
That is what happens when you just shoot the ball. Can get deflected and go in. Anything can happen when you do that.

Yea but can't count the times I've seen others put their laces through it and then over the bar.  Especially with adrenaline with 5 minutes left. He deserves credit for NOT doing that.

Quote from: Freddyfud on December 01, 2023, 08:36:55 PM

Quote from: kevdog on December 01, 2023, 08:33:21 PM
That is what happens when you just shoot the ball. Can get deflected and go in. Anything can happen when you do that.

Yea but can't count the times I've seen others put their laces through it and then over the bar.  Especially with adrenaline with 5 minutes left. He deserves credit for NOT doing that.

Agreed.  That was the most impressive part.  That he had the composure to keep it low and on frame.  I usually expect someone to send the ball into a low earth orbit.

SC.

Yes he kept his composure and kept it low. Well done by him. Got the deflection they needed. I think W&L is outplaying Amherst but that is just my opinion.

I think I have the name for a new show.... not sure what it will be about, but the announcers have inspired me.

Ladies and Germs...

"Good No Call"

SC.

so much pushing and holding both ways...kicking the ball away from the spot of the foul..encroaching on free kicks...foul count...

Yeah it's a semi final and emotions run high but imo this has been a very poor display both ways 

These are some of the worst PKs I've ever seen

Those were absolutely the worst pks I have seen in a while. Just hit low and to the corner.

Quote from: paclassic89 on December 01, 2023, 09:14:10 PM
These are some of the worst PKs I've ever seen

That amazing 192 sq ft. force field. Definitely the worst.  Singleton is going to be so, so, so disappointed.

Quote from: kevdog on December 01, 2023, 09:15:27 PM
Those were absolutely the worst pks I have seen in a while. Just hit low and to the corner.

Make the keeper make the save.  Disappointing.

I'll take the positive view:

Landa made two great saves on that PK shootout.  Pride of La Canada HS!  Joseph made one good save for W&L.  That's about all you can ask from your GK

Just about everyone else involved with that PK shootout on either side should walk away in shame.

Tusks up! Congrats to Amherst for making it to the NCAA championship match. Again.

my feed stops once the game goes to PK!

Quote from: camosfan on December 01, 2023, 09:20:39 PM
my feed stops once the game goes to PK!

6 of 8 pks missed I believe- not a great display

Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on December 01, 2023, 09:16:49 PM

Quote from: kevdog on December 01, 2023, 09:15:27 PM
Those were absolutely the worst pks I have seen in a while. Just hit low and to the corner.

Make the keeper make the save.  Disappointing.

Yes or at least move. I had coaches who told me to try to hit the side net on the ground. It is almost impossible for a goalie to get to it unless they moved before the ball was kicked.

Quote from: GKForverr1 on December 01, 2023, 05:49:46 PM
camosfan I agree the stream was not good. I do video production for a living and was annoyed to see each camera set to different exposures and white balance. Seemed like they had to cut to different cameras during second game PK's because the center camera was so dark. I expect that from student workers during the regular season but not for an NCAA hired crew. (Was told by an athletic comm friend there is a hired crew) A first world problem but nonetheless this is the championship it should look like it!

For anyone who was on site... did the field boundaries and corners seem dark? It looked like the lights did not fill the whole field with consistent light.

Hi, the corners were very dark. I can confirm from calling the game. Please be advised that it's a small production crew and they worked hard. The cameras were not all the same, which might be explain why the lightning seemed a little different, but it was definitely dark on the field and the weather made it appear gloomier.

Ira, I appreciated your color during the games today.  Well done!

Quote from: Freddyfud on December 01, 2023, 11:41:10 PM
Ira, I appreciated your color during the games today.  Well done!

Thank you. I try to provide honest assessment and interesting tidbits ... and a little humor when appropriate. I spent time with all 4 coaches this week .. they were all very gracious with their time.

Washington & Lee 2 Amherst 2 - Amherst progresses on penalties

Firstly, the Roanoke field is a pretty impressive set up, great viewing height and the backdrop of what I guess are residential colleges makes for a real occasion.  Myself and one of the Amherst Ultras had the very good fortune to meet both Another Mom and JKnezek and compare notes on respective college experiences.  Really nice people and a pleasure to make their acquaintance.  Amherst was definitely outnumbered by W&L support, but we did pick up a few Roanoke people who have their own W&L rivalry.  The Generals' support certainly made lots of noise and I would say when it got to 2-2, almost managed to drag the team over the line.  I thought it was quite cute how they were addressing Amherst players by their first names.  I have been to a lot of games and it was the first time I have ever heard that.  The announcer said Kalinauskas perfectly, definitely not in a low brow sort of way.

The first Amherst goal has already been described and was a thunderbolt and to me at least, felt fair on the play.  In truth, had Amherst been up 2-0 at half time, I just about think that would have been fair.  That was rectified quickly after half time and as best I can tell, it wasn't scored off a set piece, which is apparently the ONLY way Amherst can score.  It was a superb piece of opportunism by Amherst's highly successful freshman and certainly those with purple in their hearts went just a little crazy. 

As much as the Mammoths might have owned the first half, the dynamic changed pretty quickly and the Generals started to get more ball around Amherst's penalty area.  Having seen the Mammoths successfully maintain slender leads, it was the hope this would be more of the same.  Unfortunately, that wasn't to be the case and a finely placed shot found the far corner and it was suddenly game on.  The Generals' support justifiably sensed their moment had arrived and their team took control.  It's not exaggerating to say they had taken control and Amherst was just hanging on.  There was a sense of inevitability about W&L scoring, but nevertheless, it was disappointing to give it up so late

Operating Thetan time was more of the same, aside from one or two Amherst moments and a draw in the aggregate play, felt quite fair.

Penalties are stressful full stop and both teams found it a task to score.  Eventually Amherst did, which led this correspondent to say to the Amherst Ultra that one goal might be enough.  One of the Seniors strode confidently to the spot and proceeded to smash it in.  The W&L support knew his name also (but might have been unfamiliar with the spelling) and had offered him quite a lot of suggestions on how to improve his game during proceedings.  They were particularly concerned that his height might have been impeding his performance.  Hopefully they enjoyed the drive home.

Congratulations to W&L, they are a seriously good team and moved the ball with confidence in high pressure situations. All concerned with the team should feel very proud of their achievement.this season.

For Amherst, those with purple in their hearts are also proud and also a little relieved that the team got through.  It was a really tough game and exactly what you would expect in a semi final.  I am glad they get two sleeps before taking on what is a clearly outstanding St Olaf team. I think for the neutral, which I guess statistically is an Amhater, it will be a pretty entertaining contest

Foul count: W&L 14 Amherst 26