Figured we should get this rolling.. I tried a moment ago but mistyped on my phone!
Some mouth watering first round match-ups IMO:
Muhlenberg v Stevens
Ohio Wesleyan v Catholic
Cortland v Messiah
Hamilton v Calvin
There are many others as well, but these are the ones that I personally will be making sure I tune in for...
- Catholic's Holden Woodings has been electric this season with 15 goals. On the other hand, final ride for Jay Martin. Heavily favor OWU to topple Catholic but will still be an interesting battle
- Stevens and Muhlenberg is a gritty match-up. Two smart teams who manage games well.
- Messiah will have their hands full with Cortland's attack. 3 Cortland players share 39 goals between them.
Today was an entirely different experience watching the Selection Shows, with the new age of the computerized NPI rankings selecting the at-large teams. The NCAA had already published the final DIII NPI Selection rankings a few hours before the Selection bracket was revealed, so you already knew all the AQs and at-large teams. I had written the at-large teams on my sheet for both the men and the women, and circled each at-large team as they were revealed in the bracket as to where they would play.
For instance, I already knew that only the UAA men's AQ (Emory) would be in the field based on the fact that the lowest team in the NPI rankings to get the final at-large bid would be Buffalo State, which was ranked nationally at #33 in the final NPI DIII men's soccer rankings. NESCAC was going to get 6 at large bids on the men's side, and the UAA was going to get every women's team in the field save for Brandeis. (Wash U with the women's AQ and the #1 NPI ranking on the women's side in the final rankings) On the men's side, Middlebury had the #1 NPI ranking and got the first at large bid.
The 6 at large bids taken by NESCAC teams on the men's side based on the NPI final rankings were awarded to Middlebury (#1), Tufts (#2), Amherst (#4), Williams (#6), Bowdoin (#24), and Hamilton (#30)
The 6 at large bids taken by UAA teams on the women's side based on the final NPI rankings were awarded to Carnegie Mellon (#6), Rochester (#11), NYU (#12), Emory (#14), U.Chicago (#30), and CWRU (#42)
The lowest NPI ranked team to get an at large bid on the women's side was McDaniel, which was ranked #46 nationally in the NPI rankings when the selections were made. Defending national champion Cal Lutheran was ranked at #45 in the national NPI women's rankings and got one of 2 at large bids awarded to SCIAC teams, along with Pomona-Pitzer, which was ranked at #7 in the NPI women's rankings.
Good luck to all the teams participating in the NCAA DIII men's and women's soccer tournaments, and I would be very interested in what matchups people should be looking forward to this weekend.
I'll offer a few preliminary observations about the Region X pods (two of them, which is pretty rare):
Colorado College Pod
Colorado College gets to host for the first time in . . . ever? They fly in three teams. My guess is that the Committee decided to take advantage of the fact that the NCAA allocated more money for travel this year to make it up to CC for forcing them to travel to Atlanta last year.
Having said that, Pacific Lutheran and CMS were going to fly somewhere no matter what given that they are more than 500 miles from any other NCAA tournament qualifier, so this isn't necessarily unusual.
The Colorado College-Pacific Lutheran opener is spicier than people might realize. Colorado College has a strong advantage playing at altitude in Colorado Springs. It went undefeated there this season and only lost once at Stewart Field all last season too. Who did they lose to? Pacific Lutheran in the opener in 2023 by a 2-1 score. A lot of the stars on both sides, including Trevor Thompson, Craig Johnson, and Nicholas Gaston for PLU and Curtis Hale, Oscar Ramirez, and Alexander Ward, return for each side from that game. Colorado College played at Pacific Lutheran in Tacoma, WA 2022 and PLU won 3-1 with Thompson and Johnson scoring for PLU, Gaston making 9 saves. Ramirez was the leading shooter for CC that day and Hale and Ward and other returners played. So, Colorado College may be the top seed in this pod and the home team, but PLU might actually have the mental edge in this game given their two wins in a row with much the same top players on both sides.
Oglethorpe and CMS don't have quite the same history, but Oglethorpe did travel to Los Angeles in 2021 to play CMS and Redlands and CMS beat them 4-1.
Trinity pod
Trinity was surely going to host once they were among the top 8 in the NPI rankings. They have a beautiful grass field and overall facility, so it is well-deserved.
Once the dust settled in the South and teams like Covenant and Rhodes fell short and they sent Oglethorpe to Colorado Springs and Emory to Lynchburg, it made geographical sense to send Belhaven to Trinity. It might even be close to 500 miles as the crow flies, but it's a little over 600 miles on the freeways.
Hardin-Simmons was obviously going to travel here because they are a bus ride away, but Bowdoin is the big surprise as they are sent on the farthest trip in the tournament. Having said that, it may take less time and be more comfortable than some bus rides from Bowdoin. I doubt they will have much trouble with Hardin-Simmons, but if Trinity gets past Belhaven, the Bowdoin - Trinity matchup should give the NESCAC doubters a chance to see how a middling NESCAC team does against a power in some other part of the country.
Quick comments
- Bowdoin Polar Bears to TX, hmmm, talk about culture shock, hahaha. NESHATE??? I'm sure they'll do fine and a NE had to feel some of the pain others out West feel every year. I'm sure Bowdoin will take it the right way and make it an adventure to be discussed years from now at reunions. Stuff of memories whether they win or not which is what it all about. New look at going deep. https://youtu.be/JsuhovkRLbA?si=0166t6gK0XQLgQPf
- Colorado College hosting pod containing two CA teams and a GA team. Most may not know that, but CO has already had substantial amount of snow plus at Col. Springs is above 6000 ft. Looks like the weather won't be an issue with high in the 40's on Sat and Sun, but it may be a long time since a GA and CA teams have played in those temps. I know they are all young, but showing up a day before and difference in times/elevation could impact their success. True homefield advantage.
- Teams like F&M which are traveling for the first time in a long, long time could be the best for them. Tough bracket, but getting away from Lancaster could be a good thing. And like Bowdoin, could make a lot of memories for the team whether successful or not.
May be looking to far and the teams are definitely different this year, but Conn College beat F&M in Lancaster 7-6 in pks last year in the 2nd round. So sort of a NCAA home home series assuming both win their first rounds. However, I believe F&M is not nearly as strong as last year so imo it would be a big upset if F&M wins.
Anyone else excited by a potential Hopkins/Messiah matchup in the Sweet 16?
Paul Newman's Instant Bracket Analysis...
Already high, the odds for a NESCAC champion went even higher. Could have FOUR NESCACs in the Final 4, and that's not a stretch. Three very possible, and I would guess odds favor at least two making it.
Of the bunch, Midd got the toughest draw imo. Very tough 2nd round game. Colorado College could be tough if CC escapes their pod into the Sweet 16, and Trinity or Babson might trouble the Panthers in the Elite 8. Don't be shocked, though if Bowdoin and Wesleyan find their way to the Sweet 16. Also remember that Midd almost certainly would host again. I like Midd's chances IF they can get by the Rowan/Vassar match which could be one of the best 2nd round matchups.
Best draw, per usual, is a close call between Amherst and Tufts. I can't see Muhlenberg or Stevens troubling the Mammoths much on Hitchcock...and then maybe a re-match with St Olaf (but a St Olaf without Morgan and the Frenchman whose name eludes me). North Park, if they can get there, probably has the size to hang with Amherst so that might Vikings might be a challenge. I don't see anyone in the bottom half to trouble Amherst much on a projected Elite 8 game on their home turf.
Tufts, OMG, seems like every year you can just move them along to at least the Elite 8. Buff St won't figure out Tufts quick enough before being down a goal or two. Tufts imo is a terrible matchup for Dickinson, and I can't see the Lynchburg/Emory winner knocking out the Jumbos on Bello. The bottom half has some legit names -- Williams, Cortland, Messiah, Hopkins, and W&L/Otterbein -- but remember only one of them will be alive by the time they would meet Tufts. Hopkins might have the best chance to knock out Tufts, but they got some real work to do to just get there. A 2nd round rematch between Williams and Messiah would be tasty, and at the moment I'm not sure who I would pick.
Mary Wash imo also has a very good draw. Some good teams like OWU, Denison, and ONU just won't be quite good enough. Conn would likely provide the most resistance with F&M having a chance, as well as a healthy Kenyon (who I'm pretty sure is not going to be healthy). Kenyon also has old nemesis Calvin in its pod. Calvin vs Hamilton will be an interesting and likely entertaining affair.
Projected Sweet 16
Midd vs Colorado Coll
Bowdoin vs Babson
Amherst vs North Park
UWEC vs GAC
Tufts vs Emory
Messiah vs Hopkins
MWU vs ONU
Conn Coll vs Calvin
Quote from: Kuiper on November 11, 2024, 02:43:40 PMI'll offer a few preliminary observations about the Region X pods (two of them, which is pretty rare):
Colorado College Pod
Colorado College gets to host for the first time in . . . ever? They fly in three teams. My guess is that the Committee decided to take advantage of the fact that the NCAA allocated more money for travel this year to make it up to CC for forcing them to travel to Atlanta last year.
Having said that, Pacific Lutheran and CMS were going to fly somewhere no matter what given that they are more than 500 miles from any other NCAA tournament qualifier, so this isn't necessarily unusual.
Wonder if the NCAA will only pay for a limited no. of players/coaches. From what is online, Bowdoin has 27 players and 2 coaches plus I'm sure some ADs will travel. Plane tickets so short notice will probably cost $1k, but I'm sure that the NCAA has some discount.
RE: possible Conn vs F&M...
The other big difference this year would be F&M having to play on Conn's horrible grass field.
In today's episode of interesting 1st round match-ups, we have a rematch of an earlier match this season: Dickinson v St. Mary's College
Remember, the last time St. Mary's College met Dickinson this season was on Sept.8. The score was 3-0 to Dickinson. The Red Devils' victory was never in doubt. However, the stats make it sound closer.
Shots: Dickinson 11-10 St. Mary's
Shots on Goal: Dickinson 5-6 St. Mary's
Corners: St. Mary's 10-6 Dickinson
Saves: Dickinson 6-2 St. Mary's
Dickinson's brilliant duo of Jarden and Iwowo will likely be too much for the St. Mary's defense. However, St. Mary's knows what to expect from the Red Devils, having played them once already. St. Mary's have been scoring by committee for much of the season with 7 different players scoring 4 or more goals (albeit, in a weak United East conference).
My odds: Dickinson win 80% chance, St. Mary's win 20% chance
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 11, 2024, 02:56:41 PMPaul Newman's Instant Bracket Analysis...
Projected Sweet 16
Conn Coll vs Calvin
PN - Always the pessimist. ;D
Quote from: Ejay on November 11, 2024, 03:18:43 PMQuote from: PaulNewman on November 11, 2024, 02:56:41 PMPaul Newman's Instant Bracket Analysis...
Projected Sweet 16
Conn Coll vs Calvin
PN - Always the pessimist. ;D
Absolutely! Pessimism is my happy place. And now after reading a pro-Hamilton pitch I'm ready to advance the Continentals to the Elite 8.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 11, 2024, 03:04:52 PMRE: possible Conn vs F&M...
The other big difference this year would be F&M having to play on Conn's horrible grass field.
Its a fair point - but actually think (while used to it) Conn is better on turf.......
Not sure NESCAC fans could have dreamed of a better distribution of its teams. NCAC has all three of its "NPI-worthy" squads in the same quadrant with the 4th team, the AQ DePauw Tigers, headed to Wisconsin
Quote from: Newenglander on November 11, 2024, 03:34:22 PMQuote from: PaulNewman on November 11, 2024, 03:04:52 PMRE: possible Conn vs F&M...
The other big difference this year would be F&M having to play on Conn's horrible grass field.
Its a fair point - but actually think (while used to it) Conn is better on turf.......
Maybe...but F&M isn't better on grass than Conn.
Quote from: Mr_November on November 11, 2024, 03:17:05 PMIn today's episode of interesting 1st round match-ups, we have a rematch of an earlier match this season: Dickinson v St. Mary's College
Remember, the last time St. Mary's College met Dickinson this season was on Sept.8. The score was 3-0 to Dickinson. The Red Devils' victory was never in doubt. However, the stats make it sound closer.
Shots: Dickinson 11-10 St. Mary's
Shots on Goal: Dickinson 5-6 St. Mary's
Corners: St. Mary's 10-6 Dickinson
Saves: Dickinson 6-2 St. Mary's
Dickinson's brilliant duo of Jarden and Iwowo will likely be too much for the St. Mary's defense. However, St. Mary's knows what to expect from the Red Devils, having played them once already. St. Mary's have been scoring by committee for much of the season with 7 different players scoring 4 or more goals (albeit, in a weak United East conference).
My odds: Dickinson win 80% chance, St. Mary's win 20% chance
Great insight and have a lot of respect for St. Mary's College of Maryland. FYI, St. Mary's is named after the MD county and is a very small state school so not a religious private college. Its an affordable small state college which has an excellent reputation locally. But for soccer most if not all would have never had heard of this school. St. Mary's is almost all MD players (3 VA players) and almost all public school except for a few. I've said it before, but the coach is great and running a very good program while over achieving compared to other similarly situated schools. Son had some great conversations with the coach and spent several summers at goalkeeper camp at St. Mary's. Definitely considered St. Mary's. Would recommend anyone to check out. It's got the complete package.
Program like this pretty much encapsulates guys who want to play in college, but get little or not attention as well come from families who may have not had the money to play for high level clubs and then get to play in the tournament (second time in 2 yrs). Success like this will only bring in more talented MD players. All kids dream of playing in the tournament.
All that aside, can't see Dickinson not scoring less than 3 goals this time as well.
Not disagreeing about St. Mary's overall reach and brand, but I'd just point out they have a pretty well respected (known, in those circles) sailing team.
Totally agree with the bulk of that, though.
(My brother-in-law attended and my niece is currently a freshman... Beautiful, if isolated a bit, campus.)
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 11, 2024, 03:36:38 PMQuote from: Newenglander on November 11, 2024, 03:34:22 PMQuote from: PaulNewman on November 11, 2024, 03:04:52 PMRE: possible Conn vs F&M...
The other big difference this year would be F&M having to play on Conn's horrible grass field.
Its a fair point - but actually think (while used to it) Conn is better on turf.......
Maybe...but F&M isn't better on grass than Conn.
Over the last few years, F&M has been really bad on grass. Played on Dickinson, Etown, Muhls (now turf this year), Leb Valley and Haverford grass and not had a great track record. This year they played on Leb Valley and Etowns really bad fields. Did not add McDaniel as their field is awesome. All are pretty crappy, but crappy for both teams.
F&M has a very bad intramural grass soccer field across the road which is occasionally mowed, so it will probably practice the whole week there. Plus, F&M still has to get through another team just to get there and will have a pretty good sense what it can do on CC's field.
F&M and Cortland (and maybe Stevens) always seem to get brutal 2nd round games. And yes, F&M has a test against a tough West Conn team first and would not be shocking to see WConn advance. If F&M gets there to meet Conn I think it will take at least 3 goals to win while I suppose one could hope for a PK advance after 2-2. Of course Conn's record in PKs is legendary. I do think F&M is good enough to knock out Conn but I wouldn't bet on it. You can never rule out weather causing a move to turf from grass but at a quick glance I don't see major weather events on the horizon at least in the Northeast.
Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 11, 2024, 03:03:33 PMQuote from: Kuiper on November 11, 2024, 02:43:40 PMI'll offer a few preliminary observations about the Region X pods (two of them, which is pretty rare):
Colorado College Pod
Colorado College gets to host for the first time in . . . ever? They fly in three teams. My guess is that the Committee decided to take advantage of the fact that the NCAA allocated more money for travel this year to make it up to CC for forcing them to travel to Atlanta last year.
Having said that, Pacific Lutheran and CMS were going to fly somewhere no matter what given that they are more than 500 miles from any other NCAA tournament qualifier, so this isn't necessarily unusual.
Wonder if the NCAA will only pay for a limited no. of players/coaches. From what is online, Bowdoin has 27 players and 2 coaches plus I'm sure some ADs will travel. Plane tickets so short notice will probably cost $1k, but I'm sure that the NCAA has some discount.
Per the NCAA's DIVISION III CHAMPIONSHIPS TRANSPORTATION AND PER DIEM POLICIES (https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/championships/resources/travel/2024-25D3Champs_TravelPolicies.pdf), the travel party for soccer is 29, with a maximum of 24 players. The other three won't be able to play even if the school picks up the tab.
"As an added value to the membership, institutions may also make reservations through Short's [Travel] for persons not in the official travel party. By doing so, institutions can take advantage of unpublished discounted airfares available through Short's."
Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 11, 2024, 03:03:33 PMQuote from: Kuiper on November 11, 2024, 02:43:40 PMI'll offer a few preliminary observations about the Region X pods (two of them, which is pretty rare):
Colorado College Pod
Colorado College gets to host for the first time in . . . ever? They fly in three teams. My guess is that the Committee decided to take advantage of the fact that the NCAA allocated more money for travel this year to make it up to CC for forcing them to travel to Atlanta last year.
Having said that, Pacific Lutheran and CMS were going to fly somewhere no matter what given that they are more than 500 miles from any other NCAA tournament qualifier, so this isn't necessarily unusual.
Wonder if the NCAA will only pay for a limited no. of players/coaches. From what is online, Bowdoin has 27 players and 2 coaches plus I'm sure some ADs will travel. Plane tickets so short notice will probably cost $1k, but I'm sure that the NCAA has some discount.
It's in the ncaa championship manual it's 22 players. 3 coaches and two athletic trainers.
Quote from: Convict charlie on November 11, 2024, 06:13:29 PMQuote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 11, 2024, 03:03:33 PMQuote from: Kuiper on November 11, 2024, 02:43:40 PMI'll offer a few preliminary observations about the Region X pods (two of them, which is pretty rare):
Colorado College Pod
Colorado College gets to host for the first time in . . . ever? They fly in three teams. My guess is that the Committee decided to take advantage of the fact that the NCAA allocated more money for travel this year to make it up to CC for forcing them to travel to Atlanta last year.
Having said that, Pacific Lutheran and CMS were going to fly somewhere no matter what given that they are more than 500 miles from any other NCAA tournament qualifier, so this isn't necessarily unusual.
Wonder if the NCAA will only pay for a limited no. of players/coaches. From what is online, Bowdoin has 27 players and 2 coaches plus I'm sure some ADs will travel. Plane tickets so short notice will probably cost $1k, but I'm sure that the NCAA has some discount.
It's in the ncaa championship manual it's 22 players. 3 coaches and two athletic trainers.
No, Ron's right. Check out the appendix on page 10 of his "2024-25 NCAA Division III Championships Transportation and Per Diem Policies" link. It's spelled out right there in the chart: Men's soccer permits a 29-person travel party and a maximum of 24 players.
That same link is found on page 6 of the NCAA's
2024-25 Men's Soccer Prechampionships Manual for D3.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 11, 2024, 08:21:51 PMQuote from: Convict charlie on November 11, 2024, 06:13:29 PMQuote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 11, 2024, 03:03:33 PMQuote from: Kuiper on November 11, 2024, 02:43:40 PMI'll offer a few preliminary observations about the Region X pods (two of them, which is pretty rare):
They must have added then to it or changed it. Think last time I was involved with the tournament was 2013. That's what it was then anyways. We had a bigger team so we had to cut down. I remember being a part of them decisions.
Colorado College Pod
Colorado College gets to host for the first time in . . . ever? They fly in three teams. My guess is that the Committee decided to take advantage of the fact that the NCAA allocated more money for travel this year to make it up to CC for forcing them to travel to Atlanta last year.
Having said that, Pacific Lutheran and CMS were going to fly somewhere no matter what given that they are more than 500 miles from any other NCAA tournament qualifier, so this isn't necessarily unusual.
Wonder if the NCAA will only pay for a limited no. of players/coaches. From what is online, Bowdoin has 27 players and 2 coaches plus I'm sure some ADs will travel. Plane tickets so short notice will probably cost $1k, but I'm sure that the NCAA has some discount.
It's in the ncaa championship manual it's 22 players. 3 coaches and two athletic trainers.
No, Ron's right. Check out the appendix on page 10 of his "2024-25 NCAA Division III Championships Transportation and Per Diem Policies" link. It's spelled out right there in the chart: Men's soccer permits a 29-person travel party and a maximum of 24 players.
That same link is found on page 6 of the NCAA's 2024-25 Men's Soccer Prechampionships Manual for D3.
How does Cortland, who won the SUNYAC and had several incredible wins get such an unfavorable draw? Messiah and Williams is quite a gauntlet and for me is the toughest pod in the tournament.
Quote from: FanaticFan458 on November 11, 2024, 09:10:55 PMHow does Cortland, who won the SUNYAC and had several incredible wins get such an unfavorable draw? Messiah and Williams is quite a gauntlet and for me is the toughest pod in the tournament.
I mean, Messiah is ranked 36th in the NPI, which is about what the 22nd ranked team should expect to see in the 1st round. Williams is a bit of a tough second round draw though.
Quote from: rdanie03 on November 11, 2024, 09:14:47 PMQuote from: FanaticFan458 on November 11, 2024, 09:10:55 PMHow does Cortland, who won the SUNYAC and had several incredible wins get such an unfavorable draw? Messiah and Williams is quite a gauntlet and for me is the toughest pod in the tournament.
I mean, Messiah is ranked 36th in the NPI, which is about what the 22nd ranked team should expect to see in the 1st round. Williams is a bit of a tough second round draw though.
Hmmm, interesting thought, but have you looked at the opponents of other teams ranked oround Cortland?
17 vs 131
18 vs 52
19 vs 60
20 vs 55
21 vs 71
Cortland vs. 36
23 vs 59
24 vs 80
25 vs 75
26 vs 41
27 vs 72
.
Quote from: Ejay on November 11, 2024, 10:40:05 PMQuote from: rdanie03 on November 11, 2024, 09:14:47 PMQuote from: FanaticFan458 on November 11, 2024, 09:10:55 PMHow does Cortland, who won the SUNYAC and had several incredible wins get such an unfavorable draw? Messiah and Williams is quite a gauntlet and for me is the toughest pod in the tournament.
I mean, Messiah is ranked 36th in the NPI, which is about what the 22nd ranked team should expect to see in the 1st round. Williams is a bit of a tough second round draw though.
Hmmm, interesting thought, but have you looked at the opponents of other teams ranked oround Cortland?
17 vs 131
18 vs 52
19 vs 60
20 vs 55
21 vs 71
Cortland vs. 36
23 vs 59
24 vs 80
25 vs 75
26 vs 41
27 vs 72
.
I made a bracket on a spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZaS9c7VRdW94IGizOLDTxZ91sY7sYnakDUAVuEADigM/edit?usp=sharing) that has the teams listed with their rank 1-64 based on their NPI rank and how far off they are based on a perfectly seeded bracket. Obviously the seeding won't be perfect due to geographical limitations but it's not too bad.
10 teams are exactly where they should be.
11 teams are 1 seed off
9 teams are 2 seeds off
20 teams are 3-5 seeds off
9 teams are 6-9 seeds off
5 teams are 10+ seeds off (C-M-S is the furthest off. Should be seeded 31 but is in the 48 slot for geographic reasons)
1st round matchup extremes (ranks should add to 65)
55: 37 Otterbein vs 18 Wash & Lee
56: 48 Belhaven @ 8 Trinity
56: 34 Messiah vs 22 Cortland
58: 38 Emory @ 20 Lynchburg
58: 53 Suffolk @ 5 Conn College
59: 31 C-M-S vs 28 Oglethorpe
...
71: 54 St Mary's vs 17 Dickinson
71: 46 WestConn vs 25 Frank & Marsh
71: 44 UW-Superior vs 27 North Park
74: 42 DePauw vs 32 Hope
75: 63 Spalding @ 12 Kenyon
76: 62 Anderson @ 14 Denison
83: 50 Thomas vs 33 Buffalo St
QuoteHow does Cortland, who won the SUNYAC and had several incredible wins get such an unfavorable draw? Messiah and Williams is quite a gauntlet and for me is the toughest pod in the tournament.
Williams should be the ones complaining here!
Quote from: camosfan on November 12, 2024, 07:56:02 AMQuoteHow does Cortland, who won the SUNYAC and had several incredible wins get such an unfavorable draw? Messiah and Williams is quite a gauntlet and for me is the toughest pod in the tournament.
Williams should be the ones complaining here!
Why? Using the logic above, Williams is about the 6th seed, Manhattanville is somewhere in the high 50s/low 60s. Add them up, that's about 65. In the second round, which should add up to about 32, Williams is still a 6. If Messiah wins, they are 34, that adds to 40, and if Cortland wins that adds to about 28. A little off if Cortland wins, but no different than Johns Hopkins vs W&L, should that happen, at about 27.
"Bracket of Death" is based on Messiah's history, not their actual season results, or even their last 2 NCAA results. Cortland at 22 is not substantially different than any team that is favored to make the second round from the non-host game.
I really don't see why Williams would be complaining.
My argument is based on the Cortland fan complaining about the strength of that group! If Messiah is that good Williams got a bad deal.
SUNY Cortland vs Messiah - Historical View (3 meetings)
2014 - Messiah 6-0 Cortland
2018 - Messiah 2-2 Cortland
2018 - Messiah 3-2 Cortland (NCAA Sweet Sixteen)
SUNY Cortland vs Williams - Historical View (1 meeting)
2024 - Cortland 0-1 Williams
Williams vs Messiah - Historical View (3 meetings)
2009 - Messiah 2-1 Williams (NCAA Final Four)
2013 - Messiah 4-0 Williams (NCAA Final Four)
2022 - Messiah 0-0 Williams*(NCAA First Round)
Wiliams win 4-3 on PKs
Every game Jay Martin has from here on out could be his last.
Will OWU overlook a solid Catholic side in its eagerness to knock off D3s best team this year...and desire to avenge a loss to MWU a couple of years ago on the MWU pitch?
If OWU does get past Catholic I expect OWU to empty the clip, so to speak, in a valiant effort to pull off the upset and keep the Martin tenure alive at least another week, but alas, I just think MWU has too much talent and poise. Becomes far more dicey if OWU is level or ahead with 20-25 minutes to go when the pressure might start bothering the Eagles just a bit.
I was checking Catholic's stats and #18 Woodings has 15 goals. He's a D1 transfer from UNC Greensboro. The next goal scorer has 2..
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 11, 2024, 04:22:29 PMF&M and Cortland (and maybe Stevens) always seem to get brutal 2nd round games. And yes, F&M has a test against a tough West Conn team first and would not be shocking to see WConn advance. If F&M gets there to meet Conn I think it will take at least 3 goals to win while I suppose one could hope for a PK advance after 2-2. Of course Conn's record in PKs is legendary. I do think F&M is good enough to knock out Conn but I wouldn't bet on it. You can never rule out weather causing a move to turf from grass but at a quick glance I don't see major weather events on the horizon at least in the Northeast.
F&M and Cortland even played each other in the second round in 2022 where Cortland won on pks 7-6 after tying 3-3. Cortland at that time had several really good transfers from D1 programs.
Historical view of the St. Olaf pod
home teams in italics
* neutral-site games
North Park vs. UW-Superior (0 games)
North Park vs. St. Olaf (5 games, NPU 4-1)
2000 -- North Park 2, St. Olaf 1
2010 -- St. Olaf 2, North Park 1
2012 -- North Park 1, St. Olaf 0
2021 -- North Park 1, St. Olaf 0 (NCAA Sweet Sixteen) *
2022 -- North Park 4, St. Olaf 2 *
North Park vs. Wartburg (5 games, WC 2-1-2)
2006 -- Wartburg 3, North Park 1
2006 -- Wartburg 2, North Park 1 (NCAA First Round) *
2007 -- North Park 2, Wartburg 0
2023 -- North Park 0, Wartburg 0
2024 -- North Park 0, Wartburg 0
St. Olaf vs. Wartburg (10 games, SOC 6-4)
1988 -- St. Olaf 2, Wartburg 0
1991 -- St. Olaf 5, Wartburg 1
2004 -- St. Olaf 1, Wartburg 0
2005 -- Wartburg 3, St. Olaf 1
2006 -- Wartburg 1, St. Olaf 0
2007 -- Wartburg 4, St. Olaf 2
2008 -- Wartburg 2, St. Olaf 1
2009 -- St. Olaf 2, Wartburg 1
2015 -- St. Olaf 1, Wartburg 0
2019 -- St. Olaf 1, Wartburg 0
Wartburg vs. UW-Superior (1 game, UWS 1-0)
2015 -- UW-Superior 1, Wartburg 0
St. Olaf vs. UW-Superior (8 games, SOC 6-1-1)
2009 -- UW-Superior 0, St. Olaf 0
2010 -- St. Olaf 2, UW-Superior 1
2011 -- UW-Superior 1, St. Olaf 0
2012 -- St. Olaf 4, UW-Superior 0
2013 -- St. Olaf 1, UW-Superior 0
2014 -- St. Olaf 1, UW-Superior 0
2021 -- St. Olaf 6, UW-Superior 1
2023 -- St. Olaf 7, UW-Superior 1 (NCAA First Round)
An interesting first round storyline. Longtime ONU head coach, Brent Ridenour (who led ONU to the national championship game in 2012), is now the head coach of Franciscan. Current ONU head coach, Chris Matejka, played at ONU for Ridenour as a senior on that 2012 team. Teacher vs pupil matchup.
Another interesting first-round storyline is that former UW-Platteville head coach Enzo Fuschino, who left the Pioneers to take over at North Central in 2019, is going up to St. Peter, MN to play his former team in the Gustavus Adolphus pod. It'll be the first time he's faced UW-Platteville since his inaugural season at NCC.
The storyline in the Kenyon pod could become especially intriguing if Kenyon and Hamilton meet on Sunday. Kenyon has not faced a NESCAC team since their 2022 loss to Williams in the Elite Eight, after which they took to Twitter to say, "playing for set pieces is not the Kenyon way". While Hamilton does not rely on set pieces to the same extent as Williams or Amherst, their familiarity with the physical, strategic NESCAC style could pose a significant challenge for the Owls. If Hamilton can get past Calvin in the first round, expect them to be a very tough second-round matchup for Kenyon if they bring the NESCAC style to Ohio.
I really like the Bowdoin Polar Bears to easily bury Hardin-Simmons and follow that up with a win against Trinity to assert nationwide NESCAC dominance. Tyler Huck is an incredible goal scorer and play creator and Carlton Steinberg has been phenomenal at outside back. He beautifully combines speed and poise to carry the Polar Bear squad on his shoulders. He's the emotional leader of that squad and the first Filipino American with a mullet to enter the NCAA Tourney.
The St Olaf pod is the most wide open to me. UW Superior is a team not to be taken lightly. Very weak conference that they dominated it thoroughly, and when they stepped up the competition they showed they could play with top level teams. 2-1 losses to both Gustavus and UW-Platteville in games that were statistically pretty even. The Wartburg program isn't what it once was, but still isn't going to be an easy out. Just tied Platteville a few weeks ago. North Park is always solid as well. The host Oles have the most firepower, but their bend but don't break defense has had a little more break this season. I expect tight games in this pod.
Quote from: CACDaddy on November 12, 2024, 01:32:47 PMI really like the Bowdoin Polar Bears to easily bury Hardin-Simmons and follow that up with a win against Trinity to assert nationwide NESCAC dominance. Tyler Huck is an incredible goal scorer and play creator and Carlton Steinberg has been phenomenal at outside back. He beautifully combines speed and poise to carry the Polar Bear squad on his shoulders. He's the emotional leader of that squad and the first Filipino American with a mullet to enter the NCAA Tourney.
As someone who got to see Steinberg play twice in the last month, his development has been a sight to behold. He's a phenomenal two-way back who could pose problems to the teams in the Trinity pod.
Quote from: CACDaddy on November 12, 2024, 01:32:47 PMHe's the emotional leader of that squad and the first Filipino American with a mullet to enter the NCAA Tourney.
Finally getting the NCAA trivia that matters in this thread.
Quote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on November 12, 2024, 02:27:06 AMQuote from: Ejay on November 11, 2024, 10:40:05 PMQuote from: rdanie03 on November 11, 2024, 09:14:47 PMQuote from: FanaticFan458 on November 11, 2024, 09:10:55 PMHow does Cortland, who won the SUNYAC and had several incredible wins get such an unfavorable draw? Messiah and Williams is quite a gauntlet and for me is the toughest pod in the tournament.
I mean, Messiah is ranked 36th in the NPI, which is about what the 22nd ranked team should expect to see in the 1st round. Williams is a bit of a tough second round draw though.
Hmmm, interesting thought, but have you looked at the opponents of other teams ranked oround Cortland?
17 vs 131
18 vs 52
19 vs 60
20 vs 55
21 vs 71
Cortland vs. 36
23 vs 59
24 vs 80
25 vs 75
26 vs 41
27 vs 72
.
I made a bracket on a spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZaS9c7VRdW94IGizOLDTxZ91sY7sYnakDUAVuEADigM/edit?usp=sharing) that has the teams listed with their rank 1-64 based on their NPI rank and how far off they are based on a perfectly seeded bracket. Obviously the seeding won't be perfect due to geographical limitations but it's not too bad.
10 teams are exactly where they should be.
11 teams are 1 seed off
9 teams are 2 seeds off
20 teams are 3-5 seeds off
9 teams are 6-9 seeds off
5 teams are 10+ seeds off (C-M-S is the furthest off. Should be seeded 31 but is in the 48 slot for geographic reasons)
1st round matchup extremes (ranks should add to 65)
55: 37 Otterbein vs 18 Wash & Lee
56: 48 Belhaven @ 8 Trinity
56: 34 Messiah vs 22 Cortland
58: 38 Emory @ 20 Lynchburg
58: 53 Suffolk @ 5 Conn College
59: 31 C-M-S vs 28 Oglethorpe
...
71: 54 St Mary's vs 17 Dickinson
71: 46 WestConn vs 25 Frank & Marsh
71: 44 UW-Superior vs 27 North Park
74: 42 DePauw vs 32 Hope
75: 63 Spalding @ 12 Kenyon
76: 62 Anderson @ 14 Denison
83: 50 Thomas vs 33 Buffalo St
I took a look at that as well but didn't reseed anyone... #1 Middlebury vs. #339 Hunter made me laugh. Reminds me of some of those UEFA qualification matchups. Basically anytime a world power plays San Marino.
Reminder that 2 pods play Friday/Saturday due to religious observance.
I figured November Madness referred to the action in the games which have not yet begun. After reading much of the content on these boards this week I guess I was wrong.
Looking forward to an exciting tournament hopefully on par or even better than last year.
A few thoughts on Bowdoin's presence in a Region X pod that aren't specific to its actual matchup in the first round. These are mostly prompted by my interest in the phenomenon of Bowdoin being sent to Texas, since it's so unusual for a non-Region X team to be flown into Region X for the tournament. It's almost always the other way around, such as Pacific Lutheran flying to Minnesota last year and Colorado College flying to Atlanta. Moreover, it's even more unusual for a NESCAC or New England team to fly anywhere, both during the regular season and before the later stages of the tournament.
1. As SKUD pointed out, Bowdoin has to come in a day early because the Trinity pod is one of two that starts on Friday (Hardin-Simmons doesn't play on Sundays). Not sure that affects things either way as a competitive matter, but for a school that doesn't really fly a lot to games, the shorter practice and school week is just one more disruption to deal with on this trip.
2. I don't think the flight will pose significant problem for Bowdoin, but it's not nothing. There are plenty of flights from Portland, Maine or Boston that will get them to San Antonio, but I think there's only one that is non-stop that takes off from Boston. So, if they can't get on that flight on short notice, which seems unlikely for a travel party of as many as 29 for a flight that is likely popular, then the 5 hour travel time will increase at least 2-3 hours and the chances of weather or other delays rises. Plus, if they have to take an afternoon flight, they will get in pretty late at night, which will feel later to the team because of the time difference. By the time they get their luggage and get to the hotel (which should be close since Trinity is 5 minutes from the airport), it very well could be after midnight east coast time. They can sleep late because they have a late game the next day, but traveling east to west usually means you wake up early for most people's body clocks. Since I'm guessing they aren't leaving today, that means their sleep could be screwed up the night before the first game. They're young and lots of people deal with that, but, as I said, it's not nothing.
3. Food shouldn't be a big issue and I'm sure the coaches will control this, but if you go to San Antonio and you don't partake in the authentic breakfast tacos, you're really missing out. And I wouldn't be surprised if a taco truck sets up near where the team is staying. Having said that, if you've never had authentic breakfast tacos and you do so for the first time the day of a game . . . eater beware. The River Walk might be a safer spot for tourists from Maine than any of the authentic places.
4. Assuming the NCAA isn't flying in out-of-town referees, refereeing might take some getting used to. I'm not saying the refs are bad in Texas or that they don't follow the Laws of the Game the same as the refs in NESCAC, but how quickly refs call fouls, hand out yellows, and handle dissent are a matter of local custom. Some observers have suggested that NESCAC refs let players play on a little bit more than in some places. I don't know if that's true and you should be getting particularly strong refs, but they still are likely to be refs who regularly work games in this part of the country and they are used to doing things a certain way.
5. The weather should be outstanding. 70s during the day and maybe dipping into 60s at night. The Bowdoin opening match is pretty late, but if it starts on time, 7:30 pm central/8:30 pm eastern shouldn't feel too bad jet lag-wise or weather-wise.
6. If they have time for sight-seeing, the Alamo is a nice little attraction that is worth checking out. It might inspire them by the bravery of the defenders or intimidate them after hearing what happened to those defenders.
Quote from: Kuiper on November 13, 2024, 01:00:29 PMA few thoughts on Bowdoin's presence in a Region X pod that aren't specific to its actual matchup in the first round. These are mostly prompted by my interest in the phenomenon of Bowdoin being sent to Texas, since it's so unusual for a non-Region X team to be flown into Region X for the tournament. It's almost always the other way around, such as Pacific Lutheran flying to Minnesota last year and Colorado College flying to Atlanta. Moreover, it's even more unusual for a NESCAC or New England team to fly anywhere, both during the regular season and before the later stages of the tournament.
1. As SKUD pointed out, Bowdoin has to come in a day early because the Trinity pod is one of two that starts on Friday (Hardin-Simmons doesn't play on Sundays). Not sure that affects things either way as a competitive matter, but for a school that doesn't really fly a lot to games, the shorter practice and school week is just one more disruption to deal with on this trip.
2. I don't think the flight will pose significant problem for Bowdoin, but it's not nothing. There are plenty of flights from Portland, Maine or Boston that will get them to San Antonio, but I think there's only one that is non-stop that takes off from Boston. So, if they can't get on that flight on short notice, which seems unlikely for a travel party of as many as 29 for a flight that is likely popular, then the 5 hour travel time will increase at least 2-3 hours and the chances of weather or other delays rises. Plus, if they have to take an afternoon flight, they will get in pretty late at night, which will feel later to the team because of the time difference. By the time they get their luggage and get to the hotel (which should be close since Trinity is 5 minutes from the airport), it very well could be after midnight east coast time. They can sleep late because they have a late game the next day, but traveling east to west usually means you wake up early for most people's body clocks. Since I'm guessing they aren't leaving today, that means their sleep could be screwed up the night before the first game. They're young and lots of people deal with that, but, as I said, it's not nothing.
3. Food shouldn't be a big issue and I'm sure the coaches will control this, but if you go to San Antonio and you don't partake in the authentic breakfast tacos, you're really missing out. And I wouldn't be surprised if a taco truck sets up near where the team is staying. Having said that, if you've never had authentic breakfast tacos and you do so for the first time the day of a game . . . eater beware. The River Walk might be a safer spot for tourists from Maine than any of the authentic places.
4. Assuming the NCAA isn't flying in out-of-town referees, refereeing might take some getting used to. I'm not saying the refs are bad in Texas or that they don't follow the Laws of the Game the same as the refs in NESCAC, but how quickly refs call fouls, hand out yellows, and handle dissent are a matter of local custom. Some observers have suggested that NESCAC refs let players play on a little bit more than in some places. I don't know if that's true and you should be getting particularly strong refs, but they still are likely to be refs who regularly work games in this part of the country and they are used to doing things a certain way.
5. The weather should be outstanding. 70s during the day and maybe dipping into 60s at night. The Bowdoin opening match is pretty late, but if it starts on time, 7:30 pm central/8:30 pm eastern shouldn't feel too bad jet lag-wise or weather-wise.
6. If they have time for sight-seeing, the Alamo is a nice little attraction that is worth checking out. It might inspire them by the bravery of the defenders or intimidate them after hearing what happened to those defenders.
Thank you for the insight. With all of that in mind, I will have a vested interest in the Polar Bear's NCAA journey. I'm curious how they would match up with Trinity, should they meet in the second round. Like you said, two quality teams from differing sides of the country.
If you look at the Amherst quadrant, there are a lot of very strong teams from the Midwest. It seems to me that even if Amherst makes the sectionals (sweet) 16, Amherst will very likely have to have to fly. That could be significant. A lot has to happen and Amherst would have to win a few games, but it will interesting to see how these things shake out in this quadrant.
Also, as an aside, it's not perfect, but I am a big fan of the NPI because of transparency. The dials are set for next year, but I expect the system will improve in the future as the dials get adjusted. The weekly and later daily publication of the NPI was a great decision by the NCAA. Also, as noted in other posts, the NCAA has taken over the streaming for the the games in the tournament. Presumably that means no pay wall. What a great way to make the quality of these teams and matches more accessible to everybody, especially families who can't travel and recruits. Well done, NCAA, very well done. What a great event. Can't wait.
Quote from: Mr_November on November 12, 2024, 10:04:52 AMWilliams vs Messiah - Historical View (3 meetings)
2009 - Messiah 2-1 Williams (NCAA Final Four)
2013 - Messiah 4-0 Williams (NCAA Final Four)
2022 - Messiah 0-0 Williams*(NCAA First Round)
Wiliams win 4-3 on PKs
To which can be added:
1993 - Williams 3-1 Messiah (NCAA Round Three)
2006 - Williams 0-0 Messiah (NCAA Sweet Sixteen), Messiah wins 4-2 in PKs. Both teams were stacked, among their greatest teams ever. The Falcon GK Dustin Shambach (https://vwuathletics.com/sports/mens-soccer/roster/coaches/dustin-shambach/50) was arguably the best Falcon keeper ever. He kept the Falcons in the game, at one point saving a point-blank header that everyone had already put down as a goal.
Great preview Kuiper - only do NOT recommend the Alamo to visitors, who are almost always disappointed by the tiny remnants of the original mission crammed into the middle of the country's seventh-largest (by population) city. Much better, if another hour or two is available, is Mission San Jose, about ten minutes from Trinity, which still retains much of the original outline of a Spanish mission of the 1700s, and has plenty of exhibits that are worth viewing.
Quote from: Ron Boerger on November 13, 2024, 05:33:38 PMGreat preview Kuiper - only do NOT recommend the Alamo to visitors, who are almost always disappointed by the tiny remnants of the original mission crammed into the middle of the country's seventh-largest (by population) city. Much better, if another hour or two is available, is Mission San Jose, about ten minutes from Trinity, which still retains much of the original outline of a Spanish mission of the 1700s, and has plenty of exhibits that are worth viewing.
That is true, but I'm assuming they would be walking around the area on foot and have only a small amount of time, which makes the Alamo a little easier. It is small, but there's some decent information for people whose knowledge is limited to the "Remember the Alamo" rallying cry.
Stop in the bar at the Menger Hotel next to the Alamo. It's where Teddy Roosevelt met with Roughriders preparing for their Cuba expedition. It's also a very cool bar.
Quote from: Ron Boerger on November 13, 2024, 05:33:38 PMGreat preview Kuiper - only do NOT recommend the Alamo to visitors, who are almost always disappointed by the tiny remnants of the original mission crammed into the middle of the country's seventh-largest (by population) city. Much better, if another hour or two is available, is Mission San Jose, about ten minutes from Trinity, which still retains much of the original outline of a Spanish mission of the 1700s, and has plenty of exhibits that are worth viewing.
Also I understand that relieving oneself at The Alamo is not a best practice or so I've heard. Blizzard of Ozz. https://loudwire.com/ozzy-osbourne-arrested-urinating-alamo-cenotaph-anniversary/
Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 13, 2024, 09:26:20 PMQuote from: Ron Boerger on November 13, 2024, 05:33:38 PMGreat preview Kuiper - only do NOT recommend the Alamo to visitors, who are almost always disappointed by the tiny remnants of the original mission crammed into the middle of the country's seventh-largest (by population) city. Much better, if another hour or two is available, is Mission San Jose, about ten minutes from Trinity, which still retains much of the original outline of a Spanish mission of the 1700s, and has plenty of exhibits that are worth viewing.
Also I understand that relieving oneself at The Alamo is not a best practice or so I've heard. Blizzard of Ozz. https://loudwire.com/ozzy-osbourne-arrested-urinating-alamo-cenotaph-anniversary/
As they say, "Don't Mess with Texas"
Quote from: Ron Boerger on November 13, 2024, 05:33:38 PMGreat preview Kuiper - only do NOT recommend the Alamo to visitors, who are almost always disappointed by the tiny remnants of the original mission crammed into the middle of the country's seventh-largest (by population) city.
Perhaps, but I hear that the basement is spectacular (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PdeHy_87OM).
Region X Trinity University (San Antonio, Texas) Pod Preview:
Game 1. #77 Belhaven (CCS 12-3-4) v. #8 Trinity (TX)(SCAC 17-0-3) Friday 11/15, 5 pm Central Live Stream Link (https://www.ncaa.com/game/6348480)
Trinity has gone 17 games without a loss and is on a 4 game winning streak that culminated in a convincing 4-2 win in the SCAC championship against arch-nemesis St. Thomas. The only blemish on Trinity's schedule since the opening weekend of the season was a 1-1 tie to Colorado College in Colorado Springs on 10/27. For those who prefer Massey ratings, Trinity is #3, but the overall numbers may be less informative than some of the inputs. For example, Trinity is #1 in Offense and #28 in Defense. Trinity scored 69 goals this year (scoring in every game and only scoring fewer than 2 goals in 4 of its 20 games) and only conceded 10. On the other hand, Trinity is only #112 in Strength of Schedule in Massey. Only Denison and Hope have lower strengths of schedule among teams in the top 50 in Massey. That's a fair representation of Trinity right now. In other words, Trinity batters the teams it is supposed to batter, but they don't get to play top teams every week. The best teams it played were at the top of the SCAC, such as Colorado College. As it turns out, none of its non-conference opponents ended up having great seasons (Hendrix, Methodist, Berry, Whitworth, Cal Lutheran, Howard Payne, and Mary Hardin-Baylor). That said, you can only beat the teams in front of you and Trinity did that. The teams that gave Trinity the most trouble after the opening weekend were all teams that had pretty good defenses under Massey's ratings (Southwestern (#33), Texas Lutheran (#18), Colorado College (#6)). It's difficult to beat Trinity if you get into a shooting match with them, especially with Adam Knutson (14 goals and 6 assists) and Hunter Cain (12 goals), as well as 13 other players who have at least scored 2 goals this season.
Belhaven comes in on an 8 game unbeaten streak and a 6 game winning streak. They started the season on a high note, beating Emory 3-1 and tying Oglethorpe 0-0, but a 0-0 tie to Letourneau, a 1-0 win over East Texas Baptist, both at home, and a 1-0 loss to Berry, took the wind out of their sails a bit before they picked things back up in the second half of the season. Their only common opponent was Berry, which Trinity beat 6-0. Belhaven is #157 under Massey. They were better on defense (#133) than offense (#218) under Massey, but they played a weaker schedule than Trinity under Massey (#237). They scored 40 goals, but 17 of those goals came in 4 games against weaker opponents and they were shutout 5 times. They do have some threats up top in Wesley Bloodworth (9 goals) and 6'3" Courtland Williams (4 goals, 5 assists). So, I suspect they will try to pack it in against Trinity, especially with Trinity having home-field advantage, and hope to use Williams' height in the box on crosses and corners to head the ball into the mixer from the back post or challenge Trinity's shorter keeper.
Game 2. #73 Hardin-Simmons (ASC 12-5-2) v. #24 Bowdoin (NESCAC 7-5-5) Friday 11/15 at 7:30 pm Central Live Stream Link (https://www.ncaa.com/game/6348481)
Bowdoin is technically on a 4 game winless streak (since PK wins are still ties). Its last win was against University of Southern Maine on 10/22. In terms of outright wins, the strongest might be against Colby (#88) and Wheaton (MA) (#97). They are, however, the poster child for NPI's "good ties." They have tied Conn College, Hamilton, Wesleyan, and Tufts twice (the second time in the NESCAC tournament where they advanced on PKs) - all teams in the top 30 in the NPI rankings. They have also played a lot of strong teams close, such as a 1-0 loss to Middlebury and a 1-0 loss to Williams. They are ranked #42 by Massey and are #11 in strength of schedule, which is both their highest ranking in the Massey metrics and the strongest evidence of their quality. They are also #18 in offense and #34 in defense, which I think fairly reflects the fact that they can score (although 12 of 33 goals were against two very weak teams, they were only shutout 3 times and they scored 2 or more goals 9 times) and they will play against a team. This isn't a situation where their ties were the result of parking the bus and hoping for chaos on the other end. Tyler Huck is probably their most dangerous player, having 8 goals and 5 assists, but I think Mateo Pacelli can be dangerous too and may be even better on a beautiful surface like at Trinity that are more similar to the ones he played at in San Diego.
Hardin-Simmons is on a three game winning streak, but LeTourneau's upset of Mary Hardin-Baylor in PKs in the ASC semifinals may be the only reason Hardin-Simmons made it this far. Mary Hardin-Baylor beat H-S by identical 2-0 scores twice in the regular season. While it is hard to beat a team three teams, I think H-S was probably happy to face LeTourneau rather than UMHB in the ASC championship game. Having said that, H-S has some talent and some decent results. Its best victories were probably over Concordia TX and St. Thomas, two teams that gave Trinity competitive games. H-S is ranked #93 in Massey and are #82 in offense and #125 in defense, with a #172 in strength of schedule. That basically reflects the fact that H-S can score (46 goals this season), but mostly against teams that weren't anywhere near the quality of Bowdoin, and they don't play lockdown defense. If Bowdoin really plays free-flowing soccer in this game, H-S does have some players who can make some noise, including Jakob Fiol and the Sissen twins. All three are grad students using their Covid year for a 5th season, so they are mature and experienced. One other thing that's probably only of interest to me is that every single Hardin-Simmons player except one is from Texas (the one exception is from New Mexico). Bowdoin, by contrast, has zero players on its roster from Texas (or New Mexico for that matter). This may end up being a true cultural exchange if they don't re-enact the Civil War instead.
Kenyon up 1-0 at half over Spalding
Quote from: eaglesoccerdad on November 15, 2024, 11:52:56 AMKenyon up 1-0 at half over Spalding
Quality goal from the top of the box on a dipping shot. Kenyon's ball movement on this surface is superb (not surprisingly).
So here's an interesting thought. I did hear from a friend of mine at a bubble-ish type school that there were some conversations between teams around the bubble who had lost in the conference tournament to try and arrange an extra game around the time of conference title games. The thought was, if you could get 2 bubble teams together, a win might push you off the bubble and back into the field.
Since the NPI information was coming daily it was pretty clear which schools might benefit. There were some questions about whether it was allowed, and nothing happened this year obviously, but there are schools expected to at least make inquiries about the possibility next year.
Lining up a game for teams in the mid to high 30s or low 40s, with an opponent in the same area, is probably not real feasible in a lot of places, but would a SUNY-Oneonta (43)/Plattsburgh State (42) rematch have boosted the winner enough to make a difference?
To be honest, looking for a sub 3 hour trip, I'm not really sure I see too many games that might fit besides that one.
With Mount Union the first team out, and in a decent D3 area, you'd think something would make sense. But Covenant, Rhodes, Va Wes, Plattsburgh State, York, all too far away and some were still playing. Go further down the list and I'm not sure the incentive for the opponent is there, but even if it was, Augsburg, Redlands, Tex Lutheran, Montclair St, Edgewood... not exactly reasonable trips on short notice. UMU's football team knows the way to Roanoke (Salem, VA) real well, but it's still 6 hours by car. So you would have to get all the way to Otterbein at 52, and a conference rematch. Would that move the needle to push UMU above Buff State? And a win for Ott probably doesn't do much for them, so what's the incentive?
Maybe a Roanoke/Va Wes game? But at 49, is Roanoke really going to jump enough to make it worth the expense? Same with a Washington College vs Montclair State game. I just don't see it being worthwhile for Washington College, even if the win would help Montclair St.
Anyway, it's an interesting new dilemma for the NPI system. If the information is that transparent, can the system be gamed by scheduling an extra game? And is that even allowed.
Quote from: Mr_November on November 15, 2024, 11:55:43 AMQuote from: eaglesoccerdad on November 15, 2024, 11:52:56 AMKenyon up 1-0 at half over Spalding
Quality goal from the top of the box on a dipping shot. Kenyon's ball movement on this surface is superb (not surprisingly).
Kenyon hit one off the bar early in 2nd - came out on the front foot to start the half
Kenyon currently up 1-0 against Spalding. Hit the post in the early moments of the 2nd.
1:30 kickoff for Calvin vs. Hamilton
Wis. Eau-Claire v. Lake Forest @ 2pm
Hope v. DePauw @ 4:30pm
Quote from: jknezek on November 15, 2024, 12:01:19 PMSo here's an interesting thought. I did hear from a friend of mine at a bubble-ish type school that there were some conversations between teams around the bubble who had lost in the conference tournament to try and arrange an extra game around the time of conference title games. The thought was, if you could get 2 bubble teams together, a win might push you off the bubble and back into the field.
Since the NPI information was coming daily it was pretty clear which schools might benefit. There were some questions about whether it was allowed, and nothing happened this year obviously, but there are schools expected to at least make inquiries about the possibility next year.
Lining up a game for teams in the mid to high 30s or low 40s, with an opponent in the same area, is probably not real feasible in a lot of places, but would a SUNY-Oneonta (43)/Plattsburgh State (42) rematch have boosted the winner enough to make a difference?
To be honest, looking for a sub 3 hour trip, I'm not really sure I see too many games that might fit besides that one.
With Mount Union the first team out, and in a decent D3 area, you'd think something would make sense. But Covenant, Rhodes, Va Wes, Plattsburgh State, York, all too far away and some were still playing. Go further down the list and I'm not sure the incentive for the opponent is there, but even if it was, Augsburg, Redlands, Tex Lutheran, Montclair St, Edgewood... not exactly reasonable trips on short notice. UMU's football team knows the way to Roanoke (Salem, VA) real well, but it's still 6 hours by car. So you would have to get all the way to Otterbein at 52, and a conference rematch. Would that move the needle to push UMU above Buff State? And a win for Ott probably doesn't do much for them, so what's the incentive?
Maybe a Roanoke/Va Wes game? But at 49, is Roanoke really going to jump enough to make it worth the expense? Same with a Washington College vs Montclair State game. I just don't see it being worthwhile for Washington College, even if the win would help Montclair St.
Anyway, it's an interesting new dilemma for the NPI system. If the information is that transparent, can the system be gamed by scheduling an extra game? And is that even allowed.
What about York vs. Washington? That's not a brutal trip. Not sure it moves the needle enough for either team. I don't really do math, so...
York to Buff St is a 5.5 hour drive.
The PbP guy at Kenyon sounds like he doesn't want to disturb others at a nice restaurant. Understated.
#10 for Kenyon, Gerardo Martinez, is a quality little maestro for the Owls. Extremely tricky on the ball and checks into great spots to help break lines. I was surprised to see he's only a senior. I remember performances from his freshman year in the tournament, namely the Messiah game.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 15, 2024, 12:40:34 PMThe PbP guy at Kenyon sounds like he doesn't want to disturb others at a nice restaurant. Understated.
I hope someone scores so we can hear an enthusiastic whisper.
I'll have match previews later, but here are a few notes of interest about the Colorado College pod:
1. Elevation: Colorado Springs is in the Rocky Mountains. At 6,035 feet, or 1840 meters/1.143 miles, in the air, I'm guessing it is the highest point in DIII men's soccer. By contrast, Pacific Lutheran is in Tacoma, which has an elevation of 243 feet, Oglethorpe is in Brookhaven, Georgia, which is at the foothills of the Blue Ridge Mountains and has an elevation of 974 feet, and CMS is in Claremont, California, which is at the foothills of the San Gabriel Mountains and has an elevation of 1,168 feet. So, while none of the visitors are at sea level per se, none of them are used to playing at this kind of elevation. Studies (https://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/fulltext/2013/03000/effect_of_altitude_on_football_performance_.21.aspx) from the 2010 World Cup in South Africa showed that playing at above 1200 meters does have an effect on endurance performance, although not necessarily on speed/goals/GK errors:
QuoteThe main finding of this study was that the teams' endurance performance, determined by the total distance covered during the game, was 3.1% lower in the matches played at altitudes above 1,200 m during the 2010 World Cup compared with sea-level values. However, it is noteworthy that the maximal speed, the number of goals scored, and the errors made by the goalkeepers that resulted in goals conceded were not significantly influenced by altitude. This is the first study to show the effect of altitude on football performance using physical and technical data from official matches.
Studies (https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/47/Suppl_1/i114)also show that high elevation can also interfere with sleep, which doesn't help anyone and it could be worse for Oglethorpe given the time difference they are facing already.
Colorado Springs is 50% higher than the level at which they found a meaningful effect in the World Cup. Plus, some World Cup players played their club games at high elevation and some teams trained at high elevation for weeks before the tournament. Here, only Colorado College players have these advantages. On the other hand, DIII soccer allows for lots of substitutions, which can help offset the endurance issue, but many DIII teams don't have the depth to withstand lots of substitutions without a drop in quality. Playing two days in a row for the winning teams could exacerbate this effect. Colorado College has been a successful team the last four years in all locations, but it's not surprising that their home record has been 25-2-4 during those 4 years (undefeated this year and only 1 loss last year at home), while they have been 19-5-7 away and 5-6-2 on neutral sites (which includes SCAC and NCAA tournament, as well as non-conference games played at neutral; sites in weekend early season "round robin tournaments") over the same period.
2. Weather - The weather actually looks pretty decent for this weekend. At 11 am kickoff for the first game it's predicted to be 46 degrees and sunny and it should get up to a high of 48 degrees during that game, which will feel like 44 degrees with the wind chill. The second game should start around that high of 48 degrees and drop to 46 or 45 degrees during the game, which will feel like 43 or 42 degrees with the wind chill. This is all actually better than Pacific Lutheran would have had in Tacoma this weekend (high 40s and raining), but colder than Oglethorpe would have had (high 60s and sunny) and a little worse than CMS would have had in Claremont (50s and sunny). On the other hand, from the looks of this CC Instagram video (https://www.instagram.com/reel/DCXDNZ0xFnu/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link), they have snow piled up around the field and I doubt that is the case for the other three teams.
3. Travel - Travel is relatively easy for all the teams, depending on disruptions. Oglethorpe is the farthest away, but both PLU and CMS may have had to get connecting flights anyway. Biggest question for CMS is whether they caught a flight from Ontario airport or had to go to LAX. The drive to the latter could have been the most painful part of the trip, but it might have allowed them to fly non-stop and have more options. Only Oglethorpe will have any time difference, but for a midday game it shouldn't pose any problems.
Quote from: Mr_November on November 15, 2024, 12:47:28 PM#10 for Kenyon, Gerardo Martinez, is a quality little maestro for the Owls. Extremely tricky on the ball and checks into great spots to help break lines. I was surprised to see he's only a senior. I remember performances from his freshman year in the tournament, namely the Messiah game.
So frustrating to be a diehard Kenyon fan. Absolutely no reason not to win that game 3-0 or 4-0. One goal, or even two, likely will not be enough to get by Calvin or Hamilton. Anbd because we're constructed to be a strong offensive team, the defense isn't set up to win 1-0 games. But if we're only going to score one (or none) then the defense needs to be far more intentional in terms of staying organized, tight, and compact. They really, really miss Duratovic...and also Robert Little. Soooooo close to being a really good team but just not enough offensive finishing. No one can finish, except for Dujakovich, and he's more of a offensive center mid guy. I am thrilled that Wall finally is playing #12...who imo was their best forward player today and should get even more minutes. Very good skills, great vision, precision, crafty passes, and he'll score if he can get a few more minutes and touches. Also frustrating to watch the Owls dominate possession but get so few truly good chances in the run of play. They start out playing negative balls repeatedly out of the back, initially further up the field, and each five minutes that go by they are possessing deeper and deeper in their own territory. And Martinez is super frustrating...among the best in D3 with the ball, but too often goes for spectacular passes that trickle gently out of bounds harmlessly OR he takes 35 yard shots that have no chance. Penetrate, get into or around the box, and make a truly dangerous offensive play, Gerardo! I will say that the Buchwalter kid (I think out of Houston and Shattuck St Mary's or whatever it is in Minnesota) who got the goal is a superb player...and NCAC Newcomer of the Year. Will be one of the top players in NCAC and probably nationally for the next three years.
Really intriguing match-up for the second game of the pod out in Gambier.
Perennial dancers Calvin going up against one of the NESCAC teams folks have circled as potential bellwethers of the "do they deserve all but three of their teams in the tournament" discussion.
Calvin (AQ) is #58 in the NPI, Hamilton is #30.
I know there's been some discussion about best names in D3 soccer in the past. Calvin has a player named Xtreme Hauk. That might take the crown
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 15, 2024, 01:36:19 PMReally intriguing match-up for the second game of the pod out in Gambier.
Perennial dancers Calvin going up against one of the NESCAC teams folks have circled as potential bellwethers of the "do they deserve all but three of their teams in the tournament" discussion.
Calvin (AQ) is #58 in the NPI, Hamilton is #30.
I will be, not shocked but extremely surprised, if Calvin doesn't advance against Hamilton. This just isn't the kind of spot where Calvin loses. I suspect the grass surface also will favor Calvin.
And I agree that this is one of the more interesting 1st round matches.
Spectacular solo goal from Calvin. That pace - WOW.
Quote from: Kuiper on November 15, 2024, 01:17:03 PMI'll have match previews later, but here are a few notes of interest about the Colorado College pod:
1. Elevation: Colorado Springs is in the Rocky Mountains. At 6,035 feet, or 1840 meters/1.143 miles, in the air, I'm guessing it is the highest point in DIII men's soccer. By contrast, Pacific Lutheran is in Tacoma, which has an elevation of 243 feet, Oglethorpe is in Brookhaven, Georgia, which is at the foothills of the Blue Ridge Mountains and has an elevation of 974 feet, and CMS is in Claremont, California, which is at the foothills of the San Gabriel Mountains and has an elevation of 1,168 feet. So, while none of the visitors are at sea level per se, none of them are used to playing at this kind of elevation. Studies (https://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/fulltext/2013/03000/effect_of_altitude_on_football_performance_.21.aspx) from the 2010 World Cup in South Africa showed that playing at above 1200 meters does have an effect on endurance performance, although not necessarily on speed/goals/GK errors:
QuoteThe main finding of this study was that the teams' endurance performance, determined by the total distance covered during the game, was 3.1% lower in the matches played at altitudes above 1,200 m during the 2010 World Cup compared with sea-level values. However, it is noteworthy that the maximal speed, the number of goals scored, and the errors made by the goalkeepers that resulted in goals conceded were not significantly influenced by altitude. This is the first study to show the effect of altitude on football performance using physical and technical data from official matches.
Studies (https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/47/Suppl_1/i114)also show that high elevation can also interfere with sleep, which doesn't help anyone and it could be worse for Oglethorpe given the time difference they are facing already.
Colorado Springs is 50% higher than the level at which they found a meaningful effect in the World Cup. Plus, some World Cup players played their club games at high elevation and some teams trained at high elevation for weeks before the tournament. Here, only Colorado College players have these advantages. On the other hand, DIII soccer allows for lots of substitutions, which can help offset the endurance issue, but many DIII teams don't have the depth to withstand lots of substitutions without a drop in quality. Playing two days in a row for the winning teams could exacerbate this effect. Colorado College has been a successful team the last four years in all locations, but it's not surprising that their home record has been 25-2-4 during those 4 years (undefeated this year and only 1 loss last year at home), while they have been 19-5-7 away and 5-6-2 on neutral sites (which includes SCAC and NCAA tournament, as well as non-conference games played at neutral; sites in weekend early season "round robin tournaments") over the same period.
Son lives outside of Denver and hikes a lot going over 14k feet for many of his hikes. As to the current teams there, I think youth and physical fitness will check part of the elevation unlike me who is far from in shape. I would have to be there several days before I could attempt any of his hikes.
IMO, the short time between arriving and having to play at that elevation will be biggest factor. Pretty sure most teams got there the day before. Also elevation may not impact the first game, but the second game the next day I think might be an issue. One game possibly negligible, two games in two days 24 hrs or less apart could be a big factor.
Quote from: Mr_November on November 15, 2024, 01:49:12 PMSpectacular solo goal from Calvin. That pace - WOW.
Very, very impressive by the 58th NPI ranked team.
Calvin 1-1 Hamilton. Do we have an NCAA classic on our hands?
Good stuff Sierra. Both of my daughters lived in Denver and I've spent a lot of time out there. I don't find Denver to be any kind of issue when I land. I've been to The Springs multiple times and the elevation is something you can feel, but it's absolutely nothing like being at 10k and definitely feels like another universe at 14k.
But, absolutely that 2nd day is gonna be rough on out-of-towners.
Calvin's defense on that corner kick goal wasn't exactly airtight. They usually seem pretty big in the back, but apparently not to lose two headers to let in the goal.
Quote from: Kuiper on November 15, 2024, 02:03:50 PMCalvin's defense on that corner kick goal wasn't exactly airtight. They usually seem pretty big in the back, but apparently not to lose two headers to let in the goal.
It looks like Hamilton has found Calvin's weakness and it is corner kick defense
Hamilton 2 - Calvin 1
QuoteI suspect the grass surface also will favor Calvin.[/quote
Hamilton's home field is a very nice grass field, they should have no excuse.
Hamilton 2nd goal was a carbon copy of the first. Calvin getting a heavy dose of NESCAC ball
I know it's raining out there, but, man... keeper...
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 15, 2024, 02:13:34 PMI know it's raining out there, but, man... keeper...
That was definitely in "his bubble" as the GK coaches like to say
Quote from: paclassic89 on November 15, 2024, 02:12:22 PMHamilton 2nd goal was a carbon copy of the first. Calvin getting a heavy dose of NESCAC ball
Heading the ball is against the rules?
Weird interpretation of my comment.
My bad on the Hamilton field. I should have known better since I've watched over a half-dozen games on Love Field. I seem easily fooled by grass fields inside a track. Same setup as Oberlin.
Interesting 1st half. I hope Hamilton pulls it out. I'd rather take abuse from NESCACLAND (after a loss) than lose to Calvin. I don't trust Souders not to beat us. Peplowski is very good...looks like a player eager to put his team on his back...and I've always liked #21 whose name I will misspell without checking.
PKs coming?
Despite the announcer I'm pretty sure Calvin switched goalkeepers. The new keeper is Zak Moore.
Kenyon field looks better than the field Jamaica played USA on last night!
Hamilton scores a third to make it 3-1.
Welp. Put that in the "sure they deserve all those bids" column.
Quote from: paclassic89 on November 15, 2024, 02:40:57 PMWeird interpretation of my comment.
Really? I certainly didn't interpret it as pro-NESCAC, apologies if it was. Next time Van Dijk scores with a header for Liverpool, I can now dismiss it as, "NESCAC ball".
Quote from: EnmoreCat on November 15, 2024, 03:22:08 PMQuote from: paclassic89 on November 15, 2024, 02:40:57 PMWeird interpretation of my comment.
Really? I certainly didn't interpret it as pro-NESCAC, apologies if it was. Next time Van Dijk scores with a header for Liverpool, I can now dismiss it as, "NESCAC ball".
LOL. You're an adult, why are you being so petty? Pretty sure PA was just alluding to the NESCAC's propensity to score on set pieces. No different than saying "X team getting a dose of Y team/conference ball" when Y team/conference has a propensity for wearing teams down with possession or any other style for that matter.
I think part of what @EnmoreCat was trying to say is that within NESCAC, Hamilton is not perceived as a team that plays the same style as say Amherst, where set pieces are a major part of their attacking arsenal. Not every team in the NESCAC plays the same way, and styles evolve based on the players you have. When my son got to Middlebury, they were a grind it out defensive team who relied on counter attacks. By his final year in 2023, they were a dynamic attacking team. What NESCAC teams have in common is that they have played so many strong teams in conference that they will not be intimidated by anyone they encounter in the NCAAs.
It is what it is. I don't think it's controversial to state that the NESCAC has a reputation for a more direct style of play compared to other conferences (to varying degrees depending on the NESCAC team). It's not a style I enjoy watching but it's effective at this level. Also, believe it or not, there are some NESCAC teams that I would root for depending on matchup (Hamilton, Conn College)
Quote from: College Soccer Observer on November 15, 2024, 03:42:28 PMWhat NESCAC teams have in common is that they have played so many strong teams in conference that they will not be intimidated by anyone they encounter in the NCAAs.
This.
Is Nathan Donovan for UWEC hurt? I don't see him listed on the game report.
The only feature common among NESCAC teams is resolute defense, the attacks all vary.
Trinity. Known for resolute defense
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 15, 2024, 12:39:04 PMQuote from: jknezek on November 15, 2024, 12:01:19 PMSo here's an interesting thought. I did hear from a friend of mine at a bubble-ish type school that there were some conversations between teams around the bubble who had lost in the conference tournament to try and arrange an extra game around the time of conference title games. The thought was, if you could get 2 bubble teams together, a win might push you off the bubble and back into the field.
Since the NPI information was coming daily it was pretty clear which schools might benefit. There were some questions about whether it was allowed, and nothing happened this year obviously, but there are schools expected to at least make inquiries about the possibility next year.
Lining up a game for teams in the mid to high 30s or low 40s, with an opponent in the same area, is probably not real feasible in a lot of places, but would a SUNY-Oneonta (43)/Plattsburgh State (42) rematch have boosted the winner enough to make a difference?
To be honest, looking for a sub 3 hour trip, I'm not really sure I see too many games that might fit besides that one.
With Mount Union the first team out, and in a decent D3 area, you'd think something would make sense. But Covenant, Rhodes, Va Wes, Plattsburgh State, York, all too far away and some were still playing. Go further down the list and I'm not sure the incentive for the opponent is there, but even if it was, Augsburg, Redlands, Tex Lutheran, Montclair St, Edgewood... not exactly reasonable trips on short notice. UMU's football team knows the way to Roanoke (Salem, VA) real well, but it's still 6 hours by car. So you would have to get all the way to Otterbein at 52, and a conference rematch. Would that move the needle to push UMU above Buff State? And a win for Ott probably doesn't do much for them, so what's the incentive?
Maybe a Roanoke/Va Wes game? But at 49, is Roanoke really going to jump enough to make it worth the expense? Same with a Washington College vs Montclair State game. I just don't see it being worthwhile for Washington College, even if the win would help Montclair St.
Anyway, it's an interesting new dilemma for the NPI system. If the information is that transparent, can the system be gamed by scheduling an extra game? And is that even allowed.
What about York vs. Washington? That's not a brutal trip. Not sure it moves the needle enough for either team. I don't really do math, so...
York to Buff St is a 5.5 hour drive.
York was playing Messiah for the conference title. They would not have been available.
QuoteTrinity. Known for resolute defense
Dude! there is an exception to most statement, relax.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 15, 2024, 01:32:02 PMQuote from: Mr_November on November 15, 2024, 12:47:28 PM#10 for Kenyon, Gerardo Martinez, is a quality little maestro for the Owls. Extremely tricky on the ball and checks into great spots to help break lines. I was surprised to see he's only a senior. I remember performances from his freshman year in the tournament, namely the Messiah game.
So frustrating to be a diehard Kenyon fan. Absolutely no reason not to win that game 3-0 or 4-0. One goal, or even two, likely will not be enough to get by Calvin or Hamilton. Anbd because we're constructed to be a strong offensive team, the defense isn't set up to win 1-0 games. But if we're only going to score one (or none) then the defense needs to be far more intentional in terms of staying organized, tight, and compact. They really, really miss Duratovic...and also Robert Little. Soooooo close to being a really good team but just not enough offensive finishing. No one can finish, except for Dujakovich, and he's more of a offensive center mid guy. I am thrilled that Wall finally is playing #12...who imo was their best forward player today and should get even more minutes. Very good skills, great vision, precision, crafty passes, and he'll score if he can get a few more minutes and touches. Also frustrating to watch the Owls dominate possession but get so few truly good chances in the run of play. They start out playing negative balls repeatedly out of the back, initially further up the field, and each five minutes that go by they are possessing deeper and deeper in their own territory. And Martinez is super frustrating...among the best in D3 with the ball, but too often goes for spectacular passes that trickle gently out of bounds harmlessly OR he takes 35 yard shots that have no chance. Penetrate, get into or around the box, and make a truly dangerous offensive play, Gerardo! I will say that the Buchwalter kid (I think out of Houston and Shattuck St Mary's or whatever it is in Minnesota) who got the goal is a superb player...and NCAC Newcomer of the Year. Will be one of the top players in NCAC and probably nationally for the next three years.
Can someone confirm if Buchwalter is right footed, left footed or even two-footed? His goal today and the left-footed screamer he scored against CNU certainly points to him being two-footed. If so, that is quite impressive.
Quote from: camosfan on November 15, 2024, 04:00:45 PMQuoteTrinity. Known for resolute defense
Dude! there is an exception to most statement, relax.
:-*
This Hamilton group are looking sharp. They have been unlucky to miss out in a few of the years between now and their last tournament berth, but they look primed to take this opportunity. Hat trick of assists today for Luke Ehrenfreund, two goals for Pandelis Margaronis, and more stellar play from Charles Hawthorn and Luke Peplowski to get over the line. The Continentals dance on!
I share PN's angst about "my" teams inability to put teams away. Wis. Eau-Claire with a 5-0 shellacking of #179 Lake Forest is a great example of just getting out ahead of much lower ranked team and getting it done.
Kenyon's opponent today is ranked #247.
Hopkins plays PSU-Behrend tomorrow, who are ranked #212. Not quite as small a minnow... But we'll see how well the Jays produce tomorrow.
No style points, of course, but it shows who is firing on all cylinders, for sure.
I like to see teams just do enough to get to the next game in a knockout situation, don't overextend and pick up unnecessary injuries.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 15, 2024, 12:40:34 PMThe PbP guy at Kenyon sounds like he doesn't want to disturb others at a nice restaurant. Understated.
I think he's fantastic. Less is more
Quote from: mngopher on November 15, 2024, 04:43:30 PMQuote from: Hopkins92 on November 15, 2024, 12:40:34 PMThe PbP guy at Kenyon sounds like he doesn't want to disturb others at a nice restaurant. Understated.
I think he's fantastic. Less is more
Yeah, wasn't really complaining, but he had a bit of an ASMR vibe. Like, I was editing a document and he was so low-key I didn't have to mute him in order to concentrate.
I actually made the less is more comment re: a guy calling a Hopkins game last week.
Thanks CSO, more eloquently put, I have really only seen Hamilton against the 🦣, but am pretty sure I have always been complimentary about their transition which I really like. There are goals in that team.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 15, 2024, 04:45:16 PMQuote from: mngopher on November 15, 2024, 04:43:30 PMQuote from: Hopkins92 on November 15, 2024, 12:40:34 PMThe PbP guy at Kenyon sounds like he doesn't want to disturb others at a nice restaurant. Understated.
I think he's fantastic. Less is more
Yeah, wasn't really complaining, but he had a bit of an ASMR vibe. Like, I was editing a document and he was so low-key I didn't have to mute him in order to concentrate.
I actually made the less is more comment re: a guy calling a Hopkins game last week.
He's just a bit distracted...the first draft of his senior thesis on Proust and middle class sexuality in France in the 1890s is due Monday.
Technical difficulties in the Trinity-Belhaven broadcast unless it's just my feed. They do have the LiveStats up on the Trinity website though. 0-0 7 minutes in
UPDATE: The video is back up
UPDATE: Second yellow to Matt Farias of Belhaven for a late challenge swinging at the Trinity player's legs in the 10th minute and Belhaven has to play 80+ minutes down a man. The two yellows were 23 seconds apart.
NB - Farias had Belhaven's only red card this season before today.
And then there are some professional broadcasts where the duo are better than WC announcers.....
Trinity 1 - Belhaven 0
Great move and shot by Knutson.
Dude, all good games, However, the first two at Kenyon were substantially better as the announcers were definitely less is more. The 3rd game and now the Trinity game, really, really annoying. I generally understand younger people in the 3rd game who seem to be being paid by the word, but the Trinity game WTF.
In the beginning of the Trinity game, it seems like it is either in the TX water or a warm up fight for the Tyson fight tonight. I really think the Trinity player in the box after the keeper made the save got lucky he only got a yellow. Could have been a straight red. He did right in front of the ref. As to the 2nd yellow, definitely deserved. The first though could have been a stern caution. Yellow later in the game, but generally not given in the first few minutes. That's rough.
Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 15, 2024, 07:26:37 PMDude, all good games, However, the first two at Kenyon were substantially better as the announcers were definitely less is more. The 3rd game and now the Trinity game, really, really annoying. I generally understand younger people in the 3rd game who seem to be being paid by the word, but the Trinity game WTF.
In the beginning of the Trinity game, it seems like it is either in the TX water or a warm up fight for the Tyson fight tonight. I really think the Trinity player in the box after the keeper made the save got lucky he only got a yellow. Could have been a straight red. He did right in front of the ref. As to the 2nd yellow, definitely deserved. The first though could have been a stern caution. Yellow later in the game, but generally not given in the first few minutes. That's rough.
Maybe the Trinity announcers are auditioning for Vegas or Gettysburg?? Too soon???
Trinity 2 - Belhaven 0
Samuel Theiss scores in the 75th minute. Trinity needed that. Tough to let a team like Belhaven hang around, especially with the possibility of them nicking a set piece goal.
UPDATE: Trinity 3 - Belhaven 0
Trinity has been passing across the box all night, but finally was able to put one home. Belhaven fought valiantly, but they spent a lot of energy playing down a man and are losing their marks now.
Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 15, 2024, 07:27:55 PMQuote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 15, 2024, 07:26:37 PMDude, all good games, However, the first two at Kenyon were substantially better as the announcers were definitely less is more. The 3rd game and now the Trinity game, really, really annoying. I generally understand younger people in the 3rd game who seem to be being paid by the word, but the Trinity game WTF.
In the beginning of the Trinity game, it seems like it is either in the TX water or a warm up fight for the Tyson fight tonight. I really think the Trinity player in the box after the keeper made the save got lucky he only got a yellow. Could have been a straight red. He did right in front of the ref. As to the 2nd yellow, definitely deserved. The first though could have been a stern caution. Yellow later in the game, but generally not given in the first few minutes. That's rough.
Maybe the Trinity announcers are auditioning for Vegas or Gettysburg?? Too soon???
I'll rephrase especially since the video freezing over and over is a big negative. Yes, maybe they talk too much. But at least know something about soccer instead of just making up some color commentary as they go along.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 15, 2024, 07:47:48 PMQuote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 15, 2024, 07:27:55 PMQuote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 15, 2024, 07:26:37 PMDude, all good games, However, the first two at Kenyon were substantially better as the announcers were definitely less is more. The 3rd game and now the Trinity game, really, really annoying. I generally understand younger people in the 3rd game who seem to be being paid by the word, but the Trinity game WTF.
In the beginning of the Trinity game, it seems like it is either in the TX water or a warm up fight for the Tyson fight tonight. I really think the Trinity player in the box after the keeper made the save got lucky he only got a yellow. Could have been a straight red. He did right in front of the ref. As to the 2nd yellow, definitely deserved. The first though could have been a stern caution. Yellow later in the game, but generally not given in the first few minutes. That's rough.
Maybe the Trinity announcers are auditioning for Vegas or Gettysburg?? Too soon???
I'll rephrase especially since the video freezing over and over is a big negative. Yes, maybe they talk too much. But at least know something about soccer instead of just making up some color commentary as they go along.
Usually, Trinity's video is very good. They have some of the best replays and multiple angles around. This is definitely far more annoying than the commentary, which I personally find more knowledgeable and even-handed than most games. I prefer it to the pro announcers who are just sports communication guys that don't know much about the game itself, but you can turn the sound off more easily than you can improve the video quality.
So hosting is earned but the NCAA does not care about the sport allowing teams to play on football lined fields or sand fields that may have once been grass.
Quote from: Kuiper on November 15, 2024, 07:47:00 PMTrinity 2 - Belhaven 0
Samuel Theiss scores in the 75th minute. Trinity needed that. Tough to let a team like Belhaven hang around, especially with the possibility of them nicking a set piece goal.
Huh, my feed got hung up some how. Is the field in good shape? Looks sandy or really thin especially around the goal mouths.
I have never seen Trinity video experience the problems it has tonight - must have something to do with how it's tied into the NCAA feed. They normally broadcast direct to YouTube and it is almost always flawless in terms of continuity.
The field does seem to show more wear than usual, though it has been very hot and dry in San Antonio for this time of year the last couple of months.
Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 15, 2024, 08:01:56 PMQuote from: Kuiper on November 15, 2024, 07:47:00 PMTrinity 2 - Belhaven 0
Samuel Theiss scores in the 75th minute. Trinity needed that. Tough to let a team like Belhaven hang around, especially with the possibility of them nicking a set piece goal.
Huh, my feed got hung up some how. Is the field in good shape? Looks sandy or really thin especially around the goal mouths.
Something kept going wrong with the video on their end it seems, as it froze 3-4 times during the game. I re-loaded, which worked some of the time.
FINAL: Trinity 3 - Belhaven 0
Belhaven played down a man for 80 minutes and they were both pesky and showed some ability to get forward. Not surprisingly given the man advantage, Trinity out-shot them 17-4 and had 13 shots on goal to only 1 for Belhaven (which was a pretty harmless ball late in the game). Belhaven kind of ran out of gas and Trinity scored two in the 75th and 78th minutes to put this one to bed.
Field condition didn't look great. Either they used sand or it was threadbare (or both), but the field-level views of the grass looked better. It wasn't kicking up divots as far as I could tell, so I'm not sure the second game tonight will make it much worse for the game tomorrow night.
Polar Bears should have no problem since they are used to playing on ice, right?
An Australian commentator! @Kuiper any Intel on his background?
Bowdoin HSU deadlocked at 0-0 with 10 minutes to go in the first half.
The field is terrible. I can't believe they are going to play another game on this pitch tomorrow. You can see the sand kicking up as the ball moves across the field.
Both teams have had pretty good chances so far. HSU sailed on over the bar from a couple yards out. Bowdoin had a really close header off a corner that may have just crossed the line but too hard to tell without goal-line technology to call it a goal. Tyler Huck just went on a great run and probably should've dished it out to a teammate for what would have been an easy goal but also sailed it over. Games gotten pretty tense over the last few minutes and I'd argue Bowdoin deserves to be up right now but just hasn't been able to finish one.
I attended the TU - Belhaven match. Now I'm home and the turf looks much worse on camera than it is in reality. The field is sound.
Quote from: EnmoreCat on November 15, 2024, 09:00:45 PMAn Australian commentator! @Kuiper any Intel on his background?
Chris Hockman is a content analyst for Tactics who broadcasts Trinity University soccer matches. He provides commentary and research, and often broadcasts solo. He also conducts interviews for NCAA and SCAC post-match.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-hockman-26990822/
Quote from: D3Navy on November 15, 2024, 09:35:21 PMI attended the TU - Belhaven match. Now I'm home and the turf looks much worse on camera than it is in reality. The field is sound.
At the risk of inflaming opinion, The Billiard Table That Is Hitchcock Field suffers similarly... :o
Quote from: EnmoreCat on November 15, 2024, 09:00:45 PMAn Australian commentator! @Kuiper any Intel on his background?
SierraFD3Soccer provided the basic info from the Linkedin. He was a longtime sports guy for the San Antonio newspaper and has gotten into broadcasting since then. Came over from Australia to San Antonio originally because he was a youth minister.
Thanks SierraFD3 and Kuiper, do like his style. It's also a bit of a treat to get such good camerawork too.
QuoteAt the risk of inflaming opinion, The Billiard Table That Is Hitchcock Field suffers similarly.
I guess you have not visited Hitchcock Field this year, among the best grass in NESCAC, they may be positioning for 2026 world cup, hosting a team.
Quote from: camosfan on November 15, 2024, 09:49:56 PMQuoteAt the risk of inflaming opinion, The Billiard Table That Is Hitchcock Field suffers similarly.
I guess you have not visited Hitchcock Field this year, among the best grass in NESCAC, they may be positioning for 2026 world cup, hosting a team.
I knew the flames were coming...
Nothing sweeter than NESCAC on NESCAC crime.
;D
Tyler Huck with a miraculous shot from outside the 18 to put Bowdoin ahead with 19 minutes to go. He's been doing that his entire career.
Quote from: CACDaddy on November 15, 2024, 10:29:52 PMTyler Huck with a miraculous shot from outside the 18 to put Bowdoin ahead with 19 minutes to go. He's been doing that his entire career.
It wasn't even Huck's best shot (GK was caught leaning), but this was coming all evening.
And that's another for Bowdoin. Great assist from Carlton Steinberg puts it on a platter for FY Arthur De Santos. That's likely the nail in the coffin.
And that's another. HSU collapsing.
3-0 Polar Bears. This team is very legit.
Trinity and Bowdoin won in somewhat similar fashion, breaking down their opponents late with a barrage of goals. Should be a good match tomorrow.
Region X Colorado College (Colorado Springs) Pod Preview
Game 1. #105 Pacific Lutheran (NWC 13-2-5) v. #13 Colorado College (SCAC 15-2-3) Saturday 11/16 11 am mountain Live Stream Link (https://www.ncaa.com/game/6348478)
Pacific Lutheran broke an 18 game unbeaten streak by losing at Whitman 2-1 on the final game of the season (a team they beat 7-0 earlier in the season), but they had already clinched the NWC weeks earlier. That was kind of the problem for PLU this season. With Willamette down, the Whits inconsistent, and George Fox fading down the stretch, there was no one to challenge PLU except their own boredom. They had some 1-1 ties, but only the one loss in-conference. Their best win was a non-conference victory over Calvin, but that was when Calvin was pretty down. Massey ranks PLU very high - #26 - and #6 on offense and #52 on defense. The overall ranking is a measure of their consistency as a program rather than how they should be ranked this year, but the relative difference between their offense and defense is somewhat accurate. They scored 59 goals this year and gave up 18. They also had four 1-1 ties. My view is that they have a pretty offense involving beautiful cross-field switches of the ball and nice interchange in the middle, but they can be stymied if an opponent gets stuck in.
Colorado College is a team that gets stuck in. They only allowed 8 goals all season. They are exactly the type of team that has given PLU fits this year. On the other hand, two of those goals were last weekend when St. Thomas beat them 2-0 in the SCAC tournament. And while it took special play from a special player - St. Thomas' Daniel Castro - to beat them, PLU has a couple of special players - Trevor Thompson (21goals and 12 assists) and Craig Johnson (11 goals and 10 assists). If PLU scores first and forces Colorado College to take risks, it is possible that Johnson can pick out Thompson and he can beat someone one v. one. Scoring first, though, is a big ask. Colorado College has only given up 4 goals at home all season and it hasn't lost at Stewart Field all year. In fact, they have only lost once in the last two years. That one loss, though, was to Pacific Lutheran in the home opener in 2023. Most of PLU's main contributors return from that game. So, while PLU is a big underdog, they are the one team that can come into Colorado College's home with the confidence of knowing they have won there before.
Game 2. #29 Claremont-Mudd-Scripps (SCIAC 14-3-3) v. #54 Oglethorpe (SAA 9-2-6) Saturday 11/16 1:30 pm mountain Live Stream Link (https://www.ncaa.com/game/6348479)
CMS is on a four game unbeaten streak and just won the SCIAC tournament by beating Occidental and Chapman. It has some consistency issues though. It beat strong teams in St. Olaf and Mary Hardin-Baylor, but lost to Whittier and did poorly against Cal Lutheran and Redlands. Overall, though, it was a very successful season as Coach Cartee has led them out of the shadows of darkness of the past several years when their season was cut short by a hazing suspension and they cycled through several coaches. They play an attractive style of soccer (they scored 45 goals this season) and they have many skilled players, but I generally think as their leading scorer Rafael Otero goes (12 goals and 6 assists), so goes CMS. When they have been shut down offensively, it's usually because the opponent shut down Otero and they lacked someone else to move the ball forward and create from the midfield. They also don't have a lockdown defense, partly because they've been forced by injuries to play some younger center backs, but they play pretty well as a unit. Shaan Malik is probably the star of the defense, but mostly for his forays up the wing to set up the offense. Nico Del Villar seems like their heart and soul and he'll need a big game in Colorado Springs.
Oglethorpe has gone six games without a loss and won the SAA by beating both Sewanee and Rhodes, but it needed OT in the first and double OT in the second to claim those wins. I think that fairly sums up their season. They've only scored 30 goals all season (compared to 47 last season), but they've only given up 14. They take just about the same number of shots per game as CMS (around 15-16), but their shots on goal percentage is .39, compared with .55 for CMS. They get chances, but they aren't particularly clinical in front of the goal. One thing they do have over CMS is experience, especially in the NCAA tournament. Oglethorpe played last year and just lost to Colorado College 3-2 on a goal in the 84th minute after leading 2-0 in the 55th minute. They have a bunch of seniors on this year's roster who will likely be eager to avoid a similar fate this season. CMS, by contrast, last qualified for the NCAA tourney in 2019.
Game day here in Fredericksburg! Quite windy today in the DMV. Could impact play here and at Homewood.
Is the Mary Wash/William Peace stream working for anyone? If not, quite disappointing.
Quote from: soccerlaxfan on November 16, 2024, 11:31:48 AMIs the Mary Wash/William Peace stream working for anyone? If not, quite disappointing.
Nope
Looks like stream's working now. Must have heard us complaining.
If you aren't watching Hamilton at Kenyon you should be. Great start so far, with two dynamic teams looking to play with the ball on the ground.
Neumann 1 Amherst 3
In the twenty four hours leading up to this game, I was determined to address two things, one, to be less weird, although it may have been a positive for two guys recently and two, to not be petty, unless I was also prepared to change my first name to Tom. To my minor shame, I knew nothing of Neumann University when the draw was announced, but did learn from Wikipedia that some students there are housed next to a convent. I would assume that those particular students are quite well behaved.
On a crisp, but sunny day in Western Massachusetts, the first half was one where Amherst dominated and had numerous shots. However, most went wide or over and it was in fact the Amherst Senior in goal who had to make the best save from a fierce Knights shot. Fortunately, for those with purple in their hearts, around ten minutes from half-time, one of the Amherst captains managed to get his first goal of the season from a well-placed shot in the aftermath of a corner. 1-0 at half-time seemed fair, but not for the first time this season, it felt like it could have been one or two more.
Amherst was out of the blocks quickly in the second half, with some nice passing moves and in the 57th and 59th minutes, one of the captains and one of the freshmen both got very nice goals, hits from outside the area with no chance for the Neumann keeper. In the 63rd minute, the Knights were awarded a penalty and I watched it back a few times and truthfully am unsure what it was for. The referee of course, was much closer than me in the very early hours in deep, dark Enmore. Nevertheless, it was converted and suddenly complicated things for the Mammoths. Ultimately, the Knights had one more good chance, but there wasn't more than that and Amherst was able to calm things down and manage the last fifteen minutes or so quite comfortably.
All credit to Neumann, they absorbed a fair amount of Amherst's pressure, but in the end were undone by the little purple patch (I think there is one available in the Amherst store) the Mammoths enjoyed just prior to the sixtieth minute. For Amherst, it's a case of take the win, move on and rest up, knowing that both of tomorrow's potential opponents are quality teams.
Foul Count: Neumann 17 Amherst 24
Can't overstate the start to this Hamilton Kenyon game. Incredible pace and tempo so far. Hamilton lead 1-0 off a set piece.
Colorado College 1 - Pacific Lutheran 0 (26th minute)
Curtis Hale comes up to score on ball to the right of the goal that loops over PLU's GK. PLU didn't have much offense before that, so the hill becomes much higher to climb for them now
Hamilton-Kenyon on the iPad, Dickinson-St. Marys' on the laptop, Messiah-Cortland on the TV.
And who said multi-tasking is impossible?
Well worked equalizer for Kenyon in transition, started and finished by the center forward. Shouts of offside but hard to tell from the video angle.
2-1 Hamilton. Griffin Weidner, back from injury with a huge goal in the second phase of a corner. Great work from Peplowski. Pandelis Margaronis on a different level at the moment.
Great goal by Hamilton 1-0. Lots of soccer left.
As to a Neumann, a team that won its conference! No way 90% of the board would know Neumann other than people who grew up or live in the Philadelphia area. Small Catholic school like so many around the US. Just one of the 400 teams who mostly gather their players from the immediate area. I looked at its roster, and, except one from South Carolina, are all from the Penn, NJ, Del and Maryland area. 32 players on the team.
Of course, they did not have a chance to beat Amherst. Another way to look at it - Neumann has $28 mill in endowment v. Amherst with $3.3 billion.
But for teams like this around the country, there would have even less enrollment along with a even bigger imbalance of men to women (approx. 40-60 at Newmann). Neumann will be lucky to be around in 10 years.
Dickinson 0-0 SMCM at the half. Dickinson with good chances but haven't been clinical.
Hop 0-0 PSU-B at the half.
Hop with most of the possession but Behrend with a few nice chances on the counter (mostly, one sequence was a pretty traditional build out.)
Hopkins looked most dangerous when they brought on their subs. Probably a factor of bringing on some high energy guys along with starting to figure out how to break down Behrend's parked bus defense.
Hop needs to put some more of their shots on frame. They have the wind 2nd half, so I hope they launch a few from the top of the box. Behrend goalie has been pretty good, asked to make 2 or 3 stops in the first 45.
HALF: Colorado College 1 - Pacific Lutheran 0
PLU's chances have picked up, including a shot that went off the crossbar, but CC has held firm. Probably the key to scoring is doing it when Colorado College's star defender Curtis Hale goes up top on set plays or counter-pressing and scoring in transition. All of that is easier said than done, though, because CC is so good holding possession.
Oh, from a production standpoint: THE ZOOMED IN SHOT SUCKS!!!!
Please, for the love of Yahweh, stop trying to get a tight shot of a soccer game, that's not how we want to watch it.
Dammit.
OWU up 1-0 7 minutes into game
Catholic had some positive play in final 3rd early but nothing to show
#13 for Messiah has a very smooth cruyff and pull-back move Works every time.
Camera man needs to zoom out so he stops getting faked out just as bad as Cortland's players down on the field.
PLU equalizes in the first 30 seconds with a great give and go goal by Trevor Thompson that hit the bottom of the crossbar and in.
Colorado College 1 - Pacific Lutheran 1
Penn State Behrend looks like a new team coming out of the half. Pressing high and had a threatening chance off a set piece after what I thought was a pretty soft call. If the Blue Jays can break the press I'd expect them to finish a chance but second half has looked a little too even for the Blue Jay fans out there.
Messiah goal. Their target posted up nicely with back to goal and slotted a ball near post. It had been coming.
Martinez extremely lucky to avoid a red for a silly kick out against a player on the ground. Very fortunate to only get a yellow there. Hamilton still ahead, but should be a player up as well. Hamilton player somehow also booked.
Dickinson up 1-0 off a scrappy free kick lobbed into box. Ball bobbled around a couple of times before it was headed goalward. Keeper maybe should have done better.
Interestingly, SMCM are playing a different keeper than in the first half.
Colorado College 2 - Pacific Lutheran 1
Colorado College retakes the lead on a great switch to the CC left back, who played a square ball to Jack Hilliard who beats PLU's Gaston at the near post.
Game is heating up. PLU comes right back with a cross of its own to Thompson who forced the CC GK to make a great save
St. Olaf takes down Wartburg at Rolf Melby Field in southern Minnesota, 3-1.
Colorado College 3 - Pacific Lutheran 1 (82nd minute)
Jack Hilliard gets a brace off a feed from Teddy Opler to give CC what seems like a pretty insurmountable lead at this point, when CC is outshooting PLU 23-4 and 11-3 in shots on goal.
UPDATE Colorado College 3 - Pacific Lutheran 2 (88th minute)
Thompson gets a second goal on a great cross to him in the far left part of the box that he puts to the right side of the goal past the CC GK
PSU Behrend survives a second half onslaught from the Blue Jays to salvage overtime. Jays had one off the post with about 6 mins to play. This game has no business going to PKs but if Behrend can hold off another 20 minutes they'll give themselves a legitimate shot at the upset.
Going to OT in Baltimore, rather predictably. After a few minutes of high press from Behrend, the game reverted to Hop trying to break through 11 guys playing behind their 35 yard line. The wind is also hemming the Lions in.
We'll see if the country gets to view Hop's unique no run-up PK style unless someone figures out how to put the ball on frame in OT.
Good call on the PK against WestConn. Had to bring up Connor Anderko whose a senior back and a very good PK taker. 1-0 F&M with a lot of game left.
Final Dickinson 1-0 SMCM.
St. Mary's can definitely be proud of that performance against a strong Dickinson side. Only the 2nd NCAA Postseason appearance for the Seahawks, and that's within the past 2 seasons!
FINAL: Colorado College 3 - Pacific Lutheran 2
Valiant effort by PLU, and especially Trevor Thompson, who scored his 22nd and 23rd goals of the season, but you could tell that team was completely gassed by the end of the game. Colorado College was just too strong and Jack Hilliard came alive in this game to give the team the all-important game-winning insurance goal. It may be a little bit concerning that this is the second game in a row that CC has given up two goals, after not giving up 2 in a game all season, but Colorado College will take it and move on.
2-2 Ham v. Kenyon, late goal by Kenyon. Wow. Could go to OT.
Pan from distance to finally break through, Hop wins on a Golden Goal with about 90 seconds left in the 1st OT.
Jeez.
I mean, they were taking shots from distance all second half with the wind. They just weren't very good shots.
Had the same wind in OT and the freshman just laced a low shot into the corner from about 27 yards out. Great shot.
Not going to give Behrend too much grief, but they pretty much stopped trying to play soccer about 5 minutes into the second half. Would've been annoying if the Soccer Gods rewarded that style with a fluky win or something going awry in PKs.
Win and advance. No style points.
Meanwhile, Messiah and Cortland knotted at 1 with about 5 minutes left.
WestConn is getting really, really emotional. Do their best to outfoul F&M. Got to give it the ref, immediately after a WestConn starts to act out, he gets right up close to the player to try to defuse the situation. Great reffing. Means so, so much to both teams.
Still 1-0 with F&M getting better chances.
Messiah had seemed to be dominating and in cruise control right up until Cortland scored against the run of play from a set piece. The game has since completely flipped on its head. Cortland carving out multiple great goal scoring chances.
#10 for Cortland is a dangerous attacker who can chop the ball extremely well.
Serious momentum for Cortland heading into the final minute of regulation
Catholic pulls one back to make it 2-1 with 22 left
Catholic definitely putting the pressure on
Kenyon thought they had a PK there.
Quote from: Mr_November on November 16, 2024, 03:27:00 PMMessiah had seemed to be dominating and in cruise control right up until Cortland scored against the run of play from a set piece. The game has since completely flipped on its head. Cortland carving out multiple great goal scoring chances.
#10 for Cortland is a dangerous attacker who can chop the ball extremely well.
Serious momentum for Cortland heading into the final minute of regulation
Yep, and Cortland probably should've won it with less than 5 left. Guy passed when he was 8 yards and the entire goal to shoot on. Pass goes to an open guy, but he shanked his shot.
Going to OT.
Watching Messiah Cortland. Great game and the announcer is good imo. She may need to work on the sinus infection though.
First PK shootout of the day, Ham v. Kenyon. Hard fought game
Oh, while we're talking about announcers, the guy calling the Hop game was higher level good. Good game knowledge and excellent roster nuggets.
Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 16, 2024, 03:42:19 PMFirst PK shootout of the day, Ham v. Kenyon. Hard fought game
Can you change your goalkeeper after extra time?
This soccer mama is over the moon - both my kids' teams (Kenyon + OWU) advance.
Messiah-Cortland to PKs we go
Quote from: Little Giant 89 on November 16, 2024, 03:51:55 PMQuote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 16, 2024, 03:42:19 PMFirst PK shootout of the day, Ham v. Kenyon. Hard fought game
Can you change your goalkeeper after extra time?
Yep. It worked out quite well for Kenyon today. Two saves.
Messiah GK Adam Carter saves Cortland's second PK. Messiah miss their 2nd PK with a fantastic save.
1-1 after 2 PKs each
Cheering for W&L today. Must say, I've been really down on this side all year, mostly because due to a lack of faith in the coach and his new style of play, but the seniors have a winners mentality and can go out in style by putting together some wins in the tourney.
Messiah win on PKs. 2 saves for Messiah GK Adam Carter.
Rowan falls to Vassar 3-0 on a hatty by Tobolski. Vassar did well to crack the Rowan defense in the second half to put the game away. Rowan had 18 shots with 10 on goal but most from distance and unable to put any in. And Rowan's weakness in the middle third catches up to them result-wise. I don't think either team that showed up today would be a threat to Middlebury tomorrow. But good luck to Vassar and congrats on the win.
Quote from: Little Giant 89 on November 16, 2024, 03:51:55 PMQuote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 16, 2024, 03:42:19 PMFirst PK shootout of the day, Ham v. Kenyon. Hard fought game
Can you change your goalkeeper after extra time?
Yep... I think Conn Coll did that in the national title game.
Quote from: Mr_November on November 16, 2024, 03:27:00 PM#10 for Cortland is a dangerous attacker who can chop the ball extremely well.
He is one of the best #10s I've watched all year. Except when Cortland played at Williams several weeks ago in a game when all players on both sides were seemingly playing ping pong. And I think he got hurt during that game.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 16, 2024, 04:15:56 PMQuote from: Little Giant 89 on November 16, 2024, 03:51:55 PMQuote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 16, 2024, 03:42:19 PMFirst PK shootout of the day, Ham v. Kenyon. Hard fought game
Can you change your goalkeeper after extra time?
Yep... I think Conn Coll did that in the national title game.
Hopkins does this routinely in conference tournaments.
I wasn't there but Hamilton vs Kenyon seemed like it was an extremely intense and competitive match.
First, Hamilton. I'm sure they are gutted but they represented themselves, the college, and NESCAC well. Tough, tough team. Very physical...and very big...as big or a little bigger than Tufts and Midd and almost as big as Amherst. Also have some excellent talent. Even though you know they are dangerous on corners, set pieces, and long throws, Calvin and Kenyon could not stop them. Beating Calvin and earning a draw with Kenyon is impressive...probably not vintage Calvin and Kenyon squads but still...two of the top 6-8 D3 programs for the past decade.
Now Kenyon...credit for hanging in and fighting to the end. I was out of my mind during the 1st half. Soooo frustrated with Kenyon intentionally playing out of the back with repeated passes back to GK and back and forth across the back. Just tooooo much! Imo played right into Hamilton's strategy and their press, locking Kenyon into their own third, and then drawing repeated set pieces and long throws. The Owls also had very minimal offensive firepower, and Hamilton seemed to grow into confidence perhaps to the point of overconfidence. They got Kenyon caught up in a very physical style and the ref almost won it for Hamilton by handing out 5 or 6 yellows to the Owls in the first half alone. I was very disappointed in a few Kenyon players for losing their minds and almost triggering the ref into a 2nd yellow for dissent several times. Amazed Kenyon didn't go down a man as they had so many on yellows. As the clock ticked down with Kenyon needing an equalizer the situation seemed dim. And so dim that Kenyon played its very last card that I'm sure they had no intention of playing...inserting Alem Duratovic into the match with about 12 minutes left. Hadn't played for a month and miraculously scored with two minutes left. Had a great chance to win it in OT with a free kick right on the edge of the box but hit it over. Wall sat him for the 1st OT, brought him back in the 2nd OT...and he nailed a PK in the shootout.
One NESCAC out....seven to go.
Quote from: Rcjh2245 on November 16, 2024, 03:57:43 PMThis soccer mama is over the moon - both my kids' teams (Kenyon + OWU) advance.
Congrats, Mom! Very, very dicey....but God Bless Your Soul for producing an AA for Kenyon.
NESCAC goes 7-1 in the first round, with the only loss coming in PKs to the host.
Centennial goes 3-1, with the Muhles going down to Stevens. They were playing for the reward of meeting Amherst tomorrow, so...
F&M did enough though not convincing to advance to play Conn College. Will have to step up their game.
HALF: Claremont-Mudd-Scripps 0 - Oglethorpe 0
CMS had the better of the play, working intricate combination passes and quick flicks of the ball for great opportunities in front of goal, but weren't able to score. Oglethorpe found their footing later in the half and they had a ball off the post and several other dangerous chances. Game ended with CMS ahead on shots just barely (7-5 and 3-2 on goal).
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 16, 2024, 04:40:25 PMNESCAC goes 7-1 in the first round, with the only loss coming in PKs to the host.
Centennial goes 3-1, with the Muhles going down to Stevens. They were playing for the reward of meeting Amherst tomorrow, so...
Actually, NESCAC went 8-0 in the first round.
The Hamilton PK loss was in the second round, to the host team. (Both Hamilton and Bowdoin played/are playing Friday-Saturday games.)
Duh. Good catch Bucket.
Duuuude, crazy lucky W&L, great opportunity to tie. Wow.
One thing that has been bothering me for all these games together. Which were better, the ones on grass or turf?? Comparing the games at Hop v. Conn College. Sure teams vary in ability, but ... Grass games just seem to be incredibly choppy
North Park falls unceremoniously to lightly-regarded UW-Superior, 1-0, in Northfield, MN. The Yellowjackets certainly didn't look like any UMAC team I've ever seen; their passing was crisp, their shape immaculate in the back, midfield, and up front as well, and they did a better job of negotiating the 20-to-25 mph wind than did the Vikings, both when they had the wind at their backs and when it was in their face. In fact, they scored the lone goal against the wind, as they did a great job of keeping the ball on the ground in the attacking third.
NPU put on a lot of pressure, especially late, but the UWS GK Paredes was outstanding. NPU just didn't seem to have the necessary precision on services into the box, as, again, the Yellowjackets really read the wind better all day.
A very disappointing loss for NPU, but the Vikings will be back. They only lose two starters: grad student M Josse Blindheim, who missed this game due to a red card, and CB Teo Helm. The Vikings were without their All-Region CB this season, grad student Christian Vaaland, so getting him back next season will certainly make up for the loss of the estimable Helm.
Next season's a long way away, though, as the Vikings will have nine months' worth of sour taste in their mouths. Kudos to the Yellowjackets, though, and best of luck to them as they take on homestanding St. Olaf tomorrow.
Quote from: Bucket on November 16, 2024, 04:51:34 PMQuote from: Hopkins92 on November 16, 2024, 04:40:25 PMNESCAC goes 7-1 in the first round, with the only loss coming in PKs to the host.
Centennial goes 3-1, with the Muhles going down to Stevens. They were playing for the reward of meeting Amherst tomorrow, so...
Actually, NESCAC went 8-0 in the first round.
The Hamilton PK loss was in the second round, to the host team. (Both Hamilton and Bowdoin played/are playing Friday-Saturday games.)
I don't have a horse in this race, but isn't an 8-0 record how it was supposed to go? In other words, the only reason a team that doesn't win an AQ qualifies for the tournament is because they are very highly rated (among the top 33 teams under the NPI rankings I think this year). That rating not only means they qualify even if they didn't do all that well in their conference, but that they will be matched against a lowly-rated AQ in the first round since the NPI uses straight rank order for seeding. If I'm not mistaken, every single NESCAC team was the higher seed -- generally by a considerable margin -- over their opponent in the first round.
In other words, if your concern is that some teams qualify because of conference strength under the NPI ratings, then you should also be worried that they are seeded too high and have easier first round (and possibly later) matchups for the same reason. Hamilton had probably the hardest 1st round NESCAC matchup v. Calvin (#30 v. #58), but that's because they were the NESCAC closest to the cut line.
Quote from: Kuiper on November 16, 2024, 05:09:48 PMQuote from: Bucket on November 16, 2024, 04:51:34 PMQuote from: Hopkins92 on November 16, 2024, 04:40:25 PMNESCAC goes 7-1 in the first round, with the only loss coming in PKs to the host.
Centennial goes 3-1, with the Muhles going down to Stevens. They were playing for the reward of meeting Amherst tomorrow, so...
Actually, NESCAC went 8-0 in the first round.
The Hamilton PK loss was in the second round, to the host team. (Both Hamilton and Bowdoin played/are playing Friday-Saturday games.)
I don't have a horse in this race, but isn't an 8-0 record how it was supposed to go? In other words, the only reason a team that doesn't win an AQ qualifies for the tournament is because they are very highly rated (among the top 32 teams under the NPI rankings this year). That rating not only means they qualify even if they didn't do all that well in their conference, but that they will be matched against a lowly-rated AQ in the first round since the NPI uses straight rank order for seeding. If I'm not mistaken, every single NESCAC team was the higher seed -- generally by a considerable margin -- over their opponent in the first round.
In other words, if your concern is that some teams qualify because of conference strength under the NPI ratings, then you should also be worried that they are seeded too high and have easier first round (and possibly later) matchups for the same reason.
I'm not sure anyone said any different. I was simply correcting Hop, who mistakenly said the NESCAC went 7-1 in the first round.
CMS 1 - Oglethorpe 0
After surviving a flurry in front of the CMS net, John Laidlaw scores on a counter in the 79th minute to take a lead in the late stages of this game.
Quote from: Bucket on November 16, 2024, 05:16:12 PMQuote from: Kuiper on November 16, 2024, 05:09:48 PMQuote from: Bucket on November 16, 2024, 04:51:34 PMQuote from: Hopkins92 on November 16, 2024, 04:40:25 PMNESCAC goes 7-1 in the first round, with the only loss coming in PKs to the host.
Centennial goes 3-1, with the Muhles going down to Stevens. They were playing for the reward of meeting Amherst tomorrow, so...
Actually, NESCAC went 8-0 in the first round.
The Hamilton PK loss was in the second round, to the host team. (Both Hamilton and Bowdoin played/are playing Friday-Saturday games.)
I don't have a horse in this race, but isn't an 8-0 record how it was supposed to go? In other words, the only reason a team that doesn't win an AQ qualifies for the tournament is because they are very highly rated (among the top 32 teams under the NPI rankings this year). That rating not only means they qualify even if they didn't do all that well in their conference, but that they will be matched against a lowly-rated AQ in the first round since the NPI uses straight rank order for seeding. If I'm not mistaken, every single NESCAC team was the higher seed -- generally by a considerable margin -- over their opponent in the first round.
In other words, if your concern is that some teams qualify because of conference strength under the NPI ratings, then you should also be worried that they are seeded too high and have easier first round (and possibly later) matchups for the same reason.
I'm not sure anyone said any different. I was simply correcting Hop, who mistakenly said the NESCAC went 7-1 in the first round.
That wasn't really a response to you, but rather to the implication that this was anything other than what you would expect given the seeding. It's not as if NESCAC schools overperformed in the first round. I think Vassar, Messiah, Wisconsin-Superior, and Stevens are the only upsets thus far.
CMS 2 - Oglethorpe 0
Great big cross from James Gomez is headed in by Liam Hall at the back post to double the lead in the 82nd minute. This may be where the minutes are catching up to some tired players. The coaches have ridden the starters pretty hard. Hall's energy may have been a result of the fact that he came off the bench.
UPDATE: Oglethorpe has a PK chance in the 86th minute but the shooter skies it over the bar. That may have been hurt by an injury suffered by Levy, who seems like he may have been their regular PK taker. Still 2-0.
Otterbein down 1-0 to W&L with 10 minutes to go.
FINAL: CMS 2 - Oglethorpe 0
Pretty even game, but CMS had a bit more quality and was able to finally convert in the final third at the end of the game.
It will be interesting how well CMS recovers for tomorrow's game against Colorado College. CMS played 9 of its starters between 78-90 minutes. Of course, since CMS is at the foothills of the San Gabriel Mountains, maybe they trained up there all week in preparation!
Westfield have opened the scoring vs Tufts!
Quote from: Mr_November on November 16, 2024, 06:10:28 PMWestfield have opened the scoring vs Tufts!
Nice goal on big mistake by Tufts. Umm not quite 8-0 yet.
FYI, have any top 16 lost this year? Tufts has 35 min.
Given the rhyme, can MASCAC count as NESCAC?
Insane goal line bicycle kick clearance by Westfield on a corner...29 min to go
Quote from: Mr_November on November 16, 2024, 06:19:37 PMInsane goal line bicycle kick clearance by Westfield on a corner...29 min to go
Westfield scientists have developed an invisible forcefield. They did not employ when they lost to Fitchburg State 3-1 6 games ago.
Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 16, 2024, 06:24:16 PMQuote from: Mr_November on November 16, 2024, 06:19:37 PMInsane goal line bicycle kick clearance by Westfield on a corner...29 min to go
Westfield scientists have developed an invisible forcefield. They did not employ when they lost to Fitchburg State 3-1 6 games ago.
LOL. Too funny...
All even on Bello field. 1-1.
Tufts finds the equalizer. It was only a matter of time.
Tufts finds another off a corner kick. There was never a doubt. NESCAC haters will not like the 8-0 first round record these teams have posted.
It's quite a treat being able to watch different games and get a sense for what teams are like, when most of the time, we just see stats. I will say that I do like the colleges where the field is right inside the campus. I'm thinking about Lynchburg's field in particular, it looks like a great place to watch and similar to Roanoke (apologies if there is a regional rivalry I am offending there by my comparison). I suspect not many on these boards follow cricket, but if you ever have the good fortune to visit my home town, Perth, Western Australia, James Oval, the home of UWA Cricket is smack bang in the middle of the campus, surrounded on four sides by the Reid Library, Economics & Commerce and Engineering faculties and the Chemistry department. It's quite spectacular and I can definitely see the appeal of playing and watching like that.
Does anyone know if replays are available of the games in the first or second round. If so, where can you find them?
Quote from: CC United on November 16, 2024, 07:42:33 PMDoes anyone know if replays are available of the games in the first or second round. If so, where can you find them?
https://www.ncaa.com/champs-pass (https://www.ncaa.com/champs-pass)
Not sure how long they last...
Anyone else having issues with Bowdoin Trinity stream? No sound and keeps blacking out.
Quote from: Freddyfud on November 16, 2024, 07:50:08 PMQuote from: CC United on November 16, 2024, 07:42:33 PMDoes anyone know if replays are available of the games in the first or second round. If so, where can you find them?
https://www.ncaa.com/champs-pass (https://www.ncaa.com/champs-pass)
Not sure how long they last...
Thanks Freddy!
Quote from: CACDaddy on November 16, 2024, 08:04:06 PMAnyone else having issues with Bowdoin Trinity stream? No sound and keeps blacking out.
I don't have any sound. Maybe the broadcast team read the complaints about talking too much and decided to go silent? ;D
Quote from: Kuiper on November 16, 2024, 08:10:08 PMQuote from: CACDaddy on November 16, 2024, 08:04:06 PMAnyone else having issues with Bowdoin Trinity stream? No sound and keeps blacking out.
I don't have any sound. Maybe the broadcast team read the complaints about talking too much and decided to go silent? ;D
It could have been the Australian thing... :D
Trinity 1 - Bowdoin 0 in the 42nd minute
Trinity got a fortunate goal on a corner kick when a Bowdoin player flicks the ball back and Luke Chandler heads it in on the back post
Sound is back too
Trinity 2 - Bowdoin 0
Adam Knutson scores on a great move and finish to the far post and Trinity doubles its lead right after the start of the second half.
UPDATE: Trinity 3 - Bowdoin 0
Adam Knutson with a GOLAZO from way outside that beat the keeper with a nasty slice of the ball in the 53rd minute. He gets a brace in less than three minutes.
Yikes what a third goal by Trinity's #2 to make it 3-0
Trinity-Bowdoin starting to resemble Messiah-Albright. The Maine men are just standing around, watching spectacular plays.
Trinity is putting on a clinic in offensive soccer. Bowdoin is lucky not to be trailing by 6.
Quote from: Falconer on November 16, 2024, 09:17:02 PMTrinity-Bowdoin starting to resemble Messiah-Albright. The Maine men are just standing around, watching spectacular plays.
Couldn't agree more. Looking like a Varsity vs. a JV game. Even the Trinity players had their hands on their heads in awe of that third goal.
I was just gonna post this in the Great Lakes thread but realized should be here.
OWU vs MWU....
Could be Jay Martin's last game, which is news in itself. But also would be quite a triumph to knock off the team considered the best in the country from basically preseason to today.
And before I forget, shoutout to Bowdoin's Tyler Huck. What a player. Can't imagine how many miles he runs per game. So awkward, crafty, and skilled all at the same time. I can't think of a good comp for him. Very unique player.
Gotta say - the video quality and unbiased announcing by the Trinitiy crew is top-notch.
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on November 16, 2024, 09:36:40 PMGotta say - the video quality and unbiased announcing by the Trinitiy crew is top-notch.
It's worth saying that although the Australian play-by-play guy is a professional, the color commentator is a junior at Trinity who is on the club soccer team (EDIT: He was actually a varsity player, but got injured and now plays club). He's a pretty high-level student commentator
FINAL: Trinity 3 - Bowdoin 0
Dominant performance by Trinity, which outshoots Bowdoin 14-1 and 6-0 in shots on goal.
I'm sure this has been covered but the distribution of teams in conferences varied quite a bit. NESCAC had about as good a distribution as you could hope for with teams in all four quads. All three of the remaining NCAC teams are in same quad, and St Olaf and GAC in the same. I assume these decisions were mostly NPI driven and so the NESCAC makes sense given having 5-6 teams in the top 8 nationally or whatever the number is.
After observing Trinity-Bowdoin in person I have to believe the travel caught up with the visitors. Trinity won the vast majority of 50-50s and the Polar Bears seemed, well, glacial at times getting to the ball.
Regardless - it was as good a performance as I've seen from the Tigers in some time.
Another quirk in the draw is the strong possibility of last year's finalists meeting in the Sweet 16...with the difference in a rematch being some roster differences but also where the game likely would be played.
If you want to see all 3 goals for Trinity which were very good.
https://www.instagram.com/p/DCdQYZpRdfq/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
Bowdoin got run off the field. 1 shot?
Outplayed yes, but Trinity showed a lot and is a very good team. First goal did not come till late in the 1st half. I would say that the first two goals were not easy ones and the third was great shot.
Trinity will be in every game with their defense and have a good chance to win all of them with their attacking firepower. Knutson is at minimum a top 3 D3 player in the country.
Does hosting priority go to the women's side next weekend?
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 16, 2024, 10:23:29 PMAnother quirk in the draw is the strong possibility of last year's finalists meeting in the Sweet 16...with the difference in a rematch being some roster differences but also where the game likely would be played.
I'm really curious about how the NCAA will award the hosting privilege for the 3rd/4th rounds there. I'm aware of the bracketing procedures, but it is kind of an ideal case for them to make an exception. They'd be paying for flights for the 3 teams if Amherst hosts vs only one flight if one of the Midwest schools host. What is kind of funny is if Gustavus and St. Olaf win today, and Amherst ends up as host, then UWEC/Gustavus/St Olaf might all be on the same flight out since MSP is the most convenient major airport for all.
I don't know the rules around when the NCAA pays for a hotel, but they might not even have to do that in a scenario where a Midwest team hosts if it is UWEC/Gustavus/St Olaf. Olaf is about 100 miles to Eau Claire, and GAC is about 150. GAC and Olaf are less than 50 miles apart. I just wonder if the cost savings would be significant enough (could be as much as $30k-$40k) that they would justify a Midwest host.
Scattered News and Notes....
Amazing how going comfortably (joking) through to the Sweet 16 creates a drafting dynamic for a surge in posting...
Can a team be a church-mouse quiet 19-0-3 and pretty much under the radar all season? Say hello to the Trinity Tigers. Conference hype and travel aside, I think the Tigers showed themselves rather than Bowdoin getting exposed. The latter was coming off back to back draws with the #2 seed in the entire tournament. In fairness to any underestimation of Trinity, who would have predicted 19-0-3 after two tepid opening weekend draws against Hendrix and Methodist???
Regardless of what happens today, who else deserves plaudits for a stellar season? Midd, Tufts, UWEC, obviously MWU, GAC, Babson, Buff St, and Denison.
Notable teams on a roll.....St Olaf, W&L, Hopkins. I mentioned the possible Amherst vs St Olaf rematch in the Sweet 16. Hard to beat W&L at Hopkins today in a rematch of an early season clash. Also hard to beat a very good team twice in one season, but Hopkins is at home, so.....
By the way, other conferences that got its teams squeezed into the same quad....ODAC, SCAC, MIAC, CCIW.
Most impressive wins so far (at least on paper)....Lynchburg over Emory 3-0, Vassar over Rowan 3-0, and maybe Stevens over Muhlenberg 2-0.
Hypothetical for the NPI algorithm and bracket construction experts....IF OWU knocks out MWU, where would the sectional be played? If Conn beats F&M (and btw, that should be a fantastic match), the Camels are the #5 seed in the entire tournament...only two spots down from MWU, and of course behind fellow NESCACs Midd, Tufts, and Amherst. But there would be THREE Ohio teams. Would they send three Ohio teams to New London, CT? Or to Lancaster if F&M wins? And if in Ohio, where? Kenyon edged out Denison in the NPI but it's super close, and Denison might have the better site setup given any weather issues with their brand new turf complex. As for Fredricksburg, the video experience is not optimal.
Quote from: mngopher on November 17, 2024, 08:18:09 AMQuote from: PaulNewman on November 16, 2024, 10:23:29 PMAnother quirk in the draw is the strong possibility of last year's finalists meeting in the Sweet 16...with the difference in a rematch being some roster differences but also where the game likely would be played.
I'm really curious about how the NCAA will award the hosting privilege for the 3rd/4th rounds there. I'm aware of the bracketing procedures, but it is kind of an ideal case for them to make an exception. They'd be paying for flights for the 3 teams if Amherst hosts vs only one flight if one of the Midwest schools host. What is kind of funny is if Gustavus and St. Olaf win today, and Amherst ends up as host, then UWEC/Gustavus/St Olaf might all be on the same flight out since MSP is the most convenient major airport for all.
I don't know the rules around when the NCAA pays for a hotel, but they might not even have to do that in a scenario where a Midwest team hosts if it is UWEC/Gustavus/St Olaf. Olaf is about 100 miles to Eau Claire, and GAC is about 150. GAC and Olaf are less than 50 miles apart. I just wonder if the cost savings would be significant enough (could be as much as $30k-$40k) that they would justify a Midwest host.
I didn't see this until I hit SEND below you, but yes. I'm sure this won't factor in at all, but if it did end being Amherst and Conn those are two of the worst fields among any of the top 50 programs.
I'm not even sure where teams fly to to get to Amherst. Albany? Hartford? Logan? Rutland? Bernardstown?
Hartford would be the ideal spot. Airport is north of the city, right along I-91, and it would be an easy zip up the interstate to Amherst.
Quote from: Kuiper on November 16, 2024, 09:38:55 PMQuote from: NEsoccerfan on November 16, 2024, 09:36:40 PMGotta say - the video quality and unbiased announcing by the Trinitiy crew is top-notch.
It's worth saying that although the Australian play-by-play guy is a professional, the color commentator is a junior at Trinity who is on the club soccer team (EDIT: He was actually a varsity player, but got injured and now plays club). He's a pretty high-level student commentator
Would have never guessed that. The color commentator sounded at least 45 yo.
Quote from: D3Reporter on November 17, 2024, 04:10:43 AMDoes hosting priority go to the women's side next weekend?
Yes
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 17, 2024, 08:57:25 AMQuote from: Kuiper on November 16, 2024, 09:38:55 PMQuote from: NEsoccerfan on November 16, 2024, 09:36:40 PMGotta say - the video quality and unbiased announcing by the Trinitiy crew is top-notch.
It's worth saying that although the Australian play-by-play guy is a professional, the color commentator is a junior at Trinity who is on the club soccer team (EDIT: He was actually a varsity player, but got injured and now plays club). He's a pretty high-level student commentator
Would have never guessed that. The color commentator sounded at least 45 yo.
I definitely thought he was older until I looked him up. Lebo is also a sports reporter for the school newspaper the last two years. Here's his bio and photo:
https://trinitonian.com/staff_name/scott-lebo/
Quote from: Kuiper on November 16, 2024, 02:25:12 PMColorado College 2 - Pacific Lutheran 1
Colorado College retakes the lead on a great switch to the CC left back, who played a square ball to Jack Hilliard who beats PLU's Gaston at the near post.
Game is heating up. PLU comes right back with a cross of its own to Thompson who forced the CC GK to make a great save
That was the 10th assist on the season by CC's left back (Rex Karjian)...PLU played a great game and were dangerous at times, but CC always felt in control, and could/should have scored more...the fact they won this game with a trio of starters succumbing to the injury bug in game says a lot for their depth. It should be a good game today against CMS. (go tigers!!)
Quote from: mngopher on November 17, 2024, 08:18:09 AMQuote from: PaulNewman on November 16, 2024, 10:23:29 PMAnother quirk in the draw is the strong possibility of last year's finalists meeting in the Sweet 16...with the difference in a rematch being some roster differences but also where the game likely would be played.
I'm really curious about how the NCAA will award the hosting privilege for the 3rd/4th rounds there. I'm aware of the bracketing procedures, but it is kind of an ideal case for them to make an exception. They'd be paying for flights for the 3 teams if Amherst hosts vs only one flight if one of the Midwest schools host. What is kind of funny is if Gustavus and St. Olaf win today, and Amherst ends up as host, then UWEC/Gustavus/St Olaf might all be on the same flight out since MSP is the most convenient major airport for all.
I don't know the rules around when the NCAA pays for a hotel, but they might not even have to do that in a scenario where a Midwest team hosts if it is UWEC/Gustavus/St Olaf. Olaf is about 100 miles to Eau Claire, and GAC is about 150. GAC and Olaf are less than 50 miles apart. I just wonder if the cost savings would be significant enough (could be as much as $30k-$40k) that they would justify a Midwest host.
I don't know that I've ever see the NCAA break up a D3 bracket once it's been designed, even to save money as they have been so fond of doing. With the purse strings being loosened this year (see: three teams flown to Colorado Springs), it seems even more unlikely.
Quote from: Ron Boerger on November 17, 2024, 10:10:19 AMQuote from: mngopher on November 17, 2024, 08:18:09 AMQuote from: PaulNewman on November 16, 2024, 10:23:29 PMAnother quirk in the draw is the strong possibility of last year's finalists meeting in the Sweet 16...with the difference in a rematch being some roster differences but also where the game likely would be played.
I'm really curious about how the NCAA will award the hosting privilege for the 3rd/4th rounds there. I'm aware of the bracketing procedures, but it is kind of an ideal case for them to make an exception. They'd be paying for flights for the 3 teams if Amherst hosts vs only one flight if one of the Midwest schools host. What is kind of funny is if Gustavus and St. Olaf win today, and Amherst ends up as host, then UWEC/Gustavus/St Olaf might all be on the same flight out since MSP is the most convenient major airport for all.
I don't know the rules around when the NCAA pays for a hotel, but they might not even have to do that in a scenario where a Midwest team hosts if it is UWEC/Gustavus/St Olaf. Olaf is about 100 miles to Eau Claire, and GAC is about 150. GAC and Olaf are less than 50 miles apart. I just wonder if the cost savings would be significant enough (could be as much as $30k-$40k) that they would justify a Midwest host.
I don't know that I've ever see the NCAA break up a D3 bracket once it's been designed, even to save money as they have been so fond of doing. With the purse strings being loosened this year (see: three teams flown to Colorado Springs), it seems even more unlikely.
Could be. I think we'll see just how much those purse strings are loosening. I count as many as 8-9 flights, which could be cut down to 4 if they went with the lowest cost host. I'm guessing the cost of air/hotel/meals per team is at least $20k — meaning that total difference is a minimum of $80k. I'd wonder about working something out with Amherst like flying them in a day earlier than usual or something along those lines. Would cost an extra $3k-$5k, but would be worth it for the overall savings. Not saying any of this is going to happen, but I bet these conversations are happening at the NCAA.
I'm no air travel expert either, but in the case of UWEC/GAC/St Olaf being the Midwest trio (likely, but no guarantee) I'd wonder about the logistics of getting 80+ plane tickets from MSP to BDL all arriving on Friday. Probably not impossible, but it's going to have to be a consideration with all trying to leave from the same airport.
Quote from: MunnyTim on November 17, 2024, 08:51:32 AMHartford would be the ideal spot. Airport is north of the city, right along I-91, and it would be an easy zip up the interstate to Amherst.
Know it well and if there is a bus delay after that, then the English Literature majors get the bonus of a side-trip to Mark Twain's house.
It's not very often that you see OWU holding on for dear life in the first 10 minutes of a match.
And how good is Ben Diffley?
In the spirit of showing fairness in being grossly presumptuous in dishing out coaching advice, if I could be Jay Martin for one day, I would move Rodriguez up as a lone striker and move Guerra and Brooker into the midfield where they could actually help get a hold of the ball and maintain some possession and set up others.
Also, in fairness, the Williams field looks great...and the NCAA logo at midfield is a nice touch. And the Conn Coll field looks better than I've seen it before...also appears to be a great crowd in New London.
MWU better get their goal in the next 10-15 min....OWU looking far more confident as they get deeper into this one.
Stevens ties it up in the 90th minute!
Amherst and Stevens going to OT
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 17, 2024, 02:24:47 PMMWU better get their goal in the next 10-15 min....OWU looking far more confident as they get deeper into this one.
They got it. Wonder goal. Stat line greatly favoring UMW.
Hopkins looks to be missing Mikkel Andersen, their all-CC center back. He limped off the field yesterday and didn't start today.
Just going through Mary Washington's roster, no wonder they are the class of d3 soccer this year. Horde of graduate students that have started and played every game. Never bet against experience.
I mean thats gotta be a foul before the Williams winner right? Egregious missed call
Quote from: paclassic89 on November 17, 2024, 03:18:34 PMI mean thats gotta be a foul before the Williams winner right? Egregious missed call
Watched it back and it is clear that he took the man and not the ball.
At first, thought the goalie could have done better, but he was left 1-v-1 by the CBs who got beat to the ball in the air in transition. Nice finish.
Wickedly poor call—-fire the ref
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on November 17, 2024, 02:59:30 PMQuote from: PaulNewman on November 17, 2024, 02:24:47 PMMWU better get their goal in the next 10-15 min....OWU looking far more confident as they get deeper into this one.
They got it. Wonder goal. Stat line greatly favoring UMW.
The stats were lospided I'm sure, but OWU played a much better second half and almost scored several times. Took a great strike to win it. Congrats to Coach Martin. Set records that may never be duplicated.
Phenomenally competitive match between Williams and Messiah. Extremely physical. Nothing looked dirty but it was very physical. Looked like an Elite 8 game.
What are we even doing here? How does that foul not get whistled?
For those who come looking later here is that moment clipped
https://youtube.com/shorts/5RwWHZTKJVw?si=1PRuRMGE9kZGmzUA
Quote from: GKForverr1 on November 17, 2024, 03:27:58 PMFor those who come looking later here is that moment clipped
https://youtube.com/shorts/5RwWHZTKJVw?si=1PRuRMGE9kZGmzUA
certainly a foul
I missed that play trying to watch 3 games. Definitely egregious. Haven't looked at the stats but the ref called very little the whole game. Big, big miss. And I couldn't make out the number of the Williams player but looks like yet another 6'4, 6'5 NESCAC dude.
Quote from: boomer on November 17, 2024, 03:33:26 PMQuote from: GKForverr1 on November 17, 2024, 03:27:58 PMFor those who come looking later here is that moment clipped
https://youtube.com/shorts/5RwWHZTKJVw?si=1PRuRMGE9kZGmzUA
certainly a foul
In real time it was unquestionably a foul that led directly to the GW.
On the replay, it looks to my biased eyes that the Williams player directly, intentionally threw either an elbow or his shoulder, or both, into the Messiah player, who stayed down. In other words, it should have been a straight red. As others have asked above, how could that play not be whistled? I hope the main official is not allowed to officiate again in this tournament. It's incredible, isn't it?
If the game hadn't ended this way, I wouldn't hesitate to congratulate Williams. They were every bit as good as Messiah, though not better. I expected PKs and hoped for a different result from 2022. But this one leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
If anyone thinks I'm just being a homer (I am certainly a homer), please tell me what I'm missing.
This was a tough way to lose.
On the other hand, the Messiah players are always winners. In life. That's what matters most. If not, then let's cash it in and forget sports altogether.
The ref had a great position and that "foul" looks like it belongs in an acting class. Williams scored the goal and won the game. Messiah didn't do nearly enough to deserve a result today.
Also, why are the messiah players always winners in life? Are the Williams players losers in life then? Not sure what you're getting at bird man.
No commentary on the W&L Hopkins game????
No question a foul - and a shame that it decided the outcome of such an important match. But those types of calls are routinely missed.
Definitely not a red card. Just a bad missed call at a bad time.
It's 100% a foul. Took out the man without playing the ball. No question. I wouldn't say it was a card, but anyone who disputes it as a foul is wearing giant homer goggles or doesn't know the game.
HALF: CMS 1 - Colorado College 0
CMS' James Gomez strips the CC defender on a pass from the GK in the box and slots it home in the 16th minute for the only goal. Kind of a "when playing out of the back goes wrong" kind of goal where the keeper and the defender didn't really see Gomez creeping up as the pass was made, the defender was way too slow to get the ball off his feet under the circumstances, and the GK was out of position when the ball was stolen.
Quote from: Another Mom on November 17, 2024, 03:55:27 PMNo commentary on the W&L Hopkins game????
Shhhh... Just let it roll on the way it is going.
Quote from: Another Mom on November 17, 2024, 03:55:27 PMNo commentary on the W&L Hopkins game????
Please commentate. What do you think?
Quote from: Another Mom on November 17, 2024, 03:55:27 PMNo commentary on the W&L Hopkins game????
W&L is dominating. Lots of pressure on Hopkins. Hopkins not having their best CB has hurt as it means their best player, Francis Meyer, is playing center back rather than CDM.
Hopkins has given up lots of pressure in the first half before and come back (see the Dickinson game in the Centennial Conference tournament) but this will be a tough hill to climb in the second half.
If Amherst gets Wisc-Superior in the Sweet 16 I will lose my mind.
GAC gone.
Denison looking like they want a piece of Mary Wash.
If Messiah had pulled out that game in OT or PKs they would have been very deserving. Both teams played with tremendous heart. Should have been a yellow and at minimum a foul and a free kick. A real shame to see that. However, Williams was the stronger side, just like Messiah was the stronger side a couple of years ago.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 17, 2024, 08:41:33 AMQuote from: mngopher on November 17, 2024, 08:18:09 AMQuote from: PaulNewman on November 16, 2024, 10:23:29 PMAnother quirk in the draw is the strong possibility of last year's finalists meeting in the Sweet 16...with the difference in a rematch being some roster differences but also where the game likely would be played.
I'm really curious about how the NCAA will award the hosting privilege for the 3rd/4th rounds there. I'm aware of the bracketing procedures, but it is kind of an ideal case for them to make an exception. They'd be paying for flights for the 3 teams if Amherst hosts vs only one flight if one of the Midwest schools host. What is kind of funny is if Gustavus and St. Olaf win today, and Amherst ends up as host, then UWEC/Gustavus/St Olaf might all be on the same flight out since MSP is the most convenient major airport for all.
I don't know the rules around when the NCAA pays for a hotel, but they might not even have to do that in a scenario where a Midwest team hosts if it is UWEC/Gustavus/St Olaf. Olaf is about 100 miles to Eau Claire, and GAC is about 150. GAC and Olaf are less than 50 miles apart. I just wonder if the cost savings would be significant enough (could be as much as $30k-$40k) that they would justify a Midwest host.
I didn't see this until I hit SEND below you, but yes. I'm sure this won't factor in at all, but if it did end being Amherst and Conn those are two of the worst fields among any of the top 50 programs.
I'm not even sure where teams fly to to get to Amherst. Albany? Hartford? Logan? Rutland? Bernardstown?
Agreed but UMW's field is no treat either
Hartford is pretty close - 60-90 minutes away I think.
Especially this year with how dry it's been I agree that the UMW field is somewhat lacking but at least it is grass
A field upgrade is in the works in the next year or two.
Quote from: Dustin_Patrón on November 17, 2024, 03:53:15 PMThe ref had a great position and that "foul" looks like it belongs in an acting class. Williams scored the goal and won the game. Messiah didn't do nearly enough to deserve a result today.
Also, why are the messiah players always winners in life? Are the Williams players losers in life then? Not sure what you're getting at bird man.
I can't speak for Falconer but for myself as a Messiah alum (track and field)...winning in sports is not the priority. Across the programs the coaches facilitate a culture that puts character development and growth in our faith above all else. I am a very different person as a result of my 4 years at Messiah and I credit that to the culture. I love competing but I had to learn that winning isn't everything.
If winning is everything then you can (but not always) get a culture that approves of the behavior seen above.
If that behavior/attitude persists...I have a hard time saying that person is winning at life regardless of what "success" might come their way
Colorado College almost ties it up in the 54th minute, but the ref blows the whistle on a yellow card foul instead of playing advantage and a goal scored is negated. CC players have a right to be upset about not playing on, but once the ref blows the whistle it's over.
CMS is pinned back now. It's been one way traffic for awhile as Colorado College has dialed up the pressure in search of the equalizer.
"the behavior seen above?" What are you referring to?
Quote from: GKForverr1 on November 17, 2024, 04:24:08 PMQuote from: Dustin_Patrón on November 17, 2024, 03:53:15 PMThe ref had a great position and that "foul" looks like it belongs in an acting class. Williams scored the goal and won the game. Messiah didn't do nearly enough to deserve a result today.
Also, why are the messiah players always winners in life? Are the Williams players losers in life then? Not sure what you're getting at bird man.
I can't speak for Falconer but for myself as a Messiah alum (track and field)...winning in sports is not the priority. Across the programs the coaches facilitate a culture that puts character development and growth in our faith above all else. I am a very different person as a result of my 4 years at Messiah and I credit that to the culture. I love competing but I had to learn that winning isn't everything.
If winning is everything then you can (but not always) get a culture that approves of the behavior seen above.
If that behavior/attitude persists...I have a hard time saying that person is winning at life regardless of what "success" might come their way
Quote from: GKForverr1 on November 17, 2024, 04:24:08 PMQuote from: Dustin_Patrón on November 17, 2024, 03:53:15 PMThe ref had a great position and that "foul" looks like it belongs in an acting class. Williams scored the goal and won the game. Messiah didn't do nearly enough to deserve a result today.
Also, why are the messiah players always winners in life? Are the Williams players losers in life then? Not sure what you're getting at bird man.
I can't speak for Falconer but for myself as a Messiah alum (track and field)...winning in sports is not the priority. Across the programs the coaches facilitate a culture that puts character development and growth in our faith above all else. I am a very different person as a result of my 4 years at Messiah and I credit that to the culture. I love competing but I had to learn that winning isn't everything.
If winning is everything then you can (but not always) get a culture that approves of the behavior seen above.
If that behavior/attitude persists...I have a hard time saying that person is winning at life regardless of what "success" might come their way
Culture that approves of the behavior? What? If a foul properly had been called, with yellow or without, no one would have thought twice about that play again.
So many life and faith lessons, and yet an awful lot of entitlement about winning comes with Messiah. Not sure I've ever seen a totally clean pro-Messiah post accepting a loss in a genuinely gracious way...would have, should have, wanted to give full credit but somehow there's always a reason convenient enough or manufactured not to do so. I do agree, though, that Messiah produces outstanding young men and women...and I was rooting hard for the Falcons today.
Seems like a lot of sanctimony emanating from Messiah posters today.
Congrats on discovering that winning isn't everything. This is Division III. I haven't met a coach or player at this level who would disagree.
My take on "the play"—definitely looks like a foul, but it should be contextualized with how the official reffed the game. If he had been letting a lot go, I can see how he'd swallow his whistle here.
As far as the poster seeing red (literally calling for a red card) . . . lol. Chill, brother. And remember: winning isn't everything.
OMG!
The only silver lining is that no one with Wisc-Superior has ever heard of Amherst or has any clue where it is. But they are about to find out.
Colorado College finally gets the equalizer in the 84th minute on a corner kick. It was painful watching two teams known for possession trying to play frenetic pressure or park the bus when it was pretty clear they didn't have a ton of experience or comfort with either.
We'll see if CMS has the energy to keep it together. Two games in two days at altitude is starting to show its effects.
Announcers in the St. Olaf game mentioned that 3 of their players from last year transferred to D1. Anyone know who those were besides Morgan? I'd be interested to see how they fared this year playing up 2 divisions.
JHU and W&L going to OT. As I expected, Hopkins looked much better in the second half. Still, the goal Hopkins scored was a bit of a fluke. Long ball that W&L keeper booted forward, only for it to hit off of his defender. Hopkins player managed to launch the rebound toward goal and it just snuck inside the post.
Wonder if Denison and Kenyon will share the same bus...and hotel accommodations? A very long bus ride to Fredricksburg, but under the 500 miles (if that is the cutoff). Seven hours for Denison. 7.5 hours for Kenyon. Can a school choose to fly on their own dime? Kenyon doesn't have that kind of money but Denison does. Or is there an outside chance it's New London?
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 17, 2024, 04:53:58 PMOMG!
The only silver lining is that no one with Wisc-Superior has ever heard of Amherst or has any clue where it is. But they are about to find out.
UW-Superior starts 7 international players. Very North-Park 'esque.
END OF REGULATION: CMS 1 - Colorado College 1
They go to OT. Colorado College launched waves of attacks, outshooting CMS 24-8, but only 8 were on goal and most were way too rushed to be effective. Question will be whether CMS has the gas to withstand OT. CMS only used 5 subs, including the backup GK who came on with 14 minutes left and made two saves toward the end of the game (something to watch if this goes to PKs). 5 starters have played the full 90, including some of their primary offensive/creative weapons in Gomez and Otero. Colorado College has 5 players who have played 90 as well, but it's basically their back line. The trick for CC is figuring out how to get Curtis Hale forward without leaving the defense open to attack. With CMS lacking much speed up top and the speed it does have being tired, it might be worth the risk.
UPDATE: Going to 2OT. CMS was the more dangerous side in the first OT, getting off a couple of shots and doing better keeping possession and using Colorado College's pressure against them. CC's GK came up big on a couple of saves.
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on November 17, 2024, 04:59:44 PMAnnouncers in the St. Olaf game mentioned that 3 of their players from last year transferred to D1. Anyone know who those were besides Morgan? I'd be interested to see how they fared this year playing up 2 divisions.
The french player went to Akron and I believe played/started significant minutes. The one with goggles went to UNC Charlotte (I think). Not sure of his minutes.
PK JHU W&L
FINAL: CMS 2 - Colorado College 1 in 2OT
As I said, as Rafael Otero goes, so goes CMS. He scores a beautiful golden goal after dancing his way through multiple defenders and picking out his spot past the outstretched GK. Really impressive considering he played all 107 minutes after playing 90 minutes yesterday.
What is up with the Hopkins players run-ups? I get the idea of don't sell the angle, but it doesn't matter if they shank it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
There's a reason why you rarely see pro players using the zero run up technique...
IIRC they each to a man did no run-up. Never seen that before from an entire line of kickers. Is that coaching? (I cannot recall any of the previous JHU shootouts in the NCAA, but I know they lost to Tufts in 2017 Ro16.)
They did it in the conference tournament and it worked well. Today... Less well.
They made all 5 in the conference championships.
I'm not sure about that technique. It's interesting and I posted about it on the MidAtlantic thread, so I don't want to repeat it.
Overall, Hopkins needs to learn to rise to the moment in the NCAA. They come pretty close to just chucking their possession style of play when they come up against a quality opponent. I love the way they were more direct against F&M, but it was still their overall possession approach. Large stretches of today were just them lumping up long balls to no one.
Nothing to hang your head about losing to W&L. But you earn a hosting spot, you have to like your chances to advance going into the weekend. Alas...
Commentary...
Gutsy, gustsy performance by W&L to travel to Hopkins and advance. Hopkins imo was one of the best teams in the country and had a shot at reaching a Final 4. W&L of course is very good and very tourney-tested. Pleasants and JP Morgan (Ryan) have been playing for W&L since the mid 2010s.
Right before Meyer took his kick I thought....I wonder what happens with this style if the first or second kicker misses one. Doesn't seem so surefire after a miss...and then the reaction to the miss bleeds into the other kickers. Praised like crazy just a week ago, and now we may never see that again. Meyer also hesitated too long and I think kind of froze himself. W&L obviously had a week to study as well.
I think we need to start asking why Wisconsin has become the hotbed of DIII men's soccer. ;D Three Wisconsin state schools in the Sweet 16! Too bad two of them have to play each other.
^ it got them the PK win last week and when it worked everyone loved it.
Quote from: blooter442 on November 17, 2024, 05:47:03 PMIIRC they each to a man did no run-up. Never seen that before from an entire line of kickers. Is that coaching? (I cannot recall any of the previous JHU shootouts in the NCAA, but I know they lost to Tufts in 2017 Ro16.)
As my Hop colleague noted, yes, this a thing that coaching staff implemented after a loss in PKs with some pretty bad misses.
Unfortunately, nerves in November Madness are much different than in a conference championship where the stakes were pretty low (Hop was playing to host, not make the tournament last weekend.)
HALF: Buffalo State 1 - Tufts 0
Buffalo State gets a goal in the 42nd minute to take the 1-0 lead going into halftime. First the Westfield St. game and now this. Tufts keeps living dangerously.
The Hopkins pk experiment is probably done. W&L keeper saved a pk off of Hops best player. And then sailed it over the bar. The sub keeper made no saves. Only really close to one.
In 2022, Hop lost two pk shootouts one in the Cent Conf Muhls and one against Stevens in the quarters. If I remember correctly Hop hit it over in one and wide left in the other.
Pure coaching choice.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 17, 2024, 05:50:16 PMCommentary...
Gutsy, gustsy performance by W&L to travel to Hopkins and advance. Hopkins imo was one of the best teams in the country and had a shot at reaching a Final 4. W&L of course is very good and very tourney-tested. Pleasants and JP Morgan (Ryan) have been playing for W&L since the mid 2010s.
Right before Meyer took his kick I thought....I wonder what happens with this style if the first or second kicker misses one. Doesn't seem so surefire after a miss...and then the reaction to the miss bleeds into the other kickers. Praised like crazy just a week ago, and now we may never see that again. Meyer also hesitated too long and I think kind of froze himself. W&L obviously had a week to study as well.
As to Meyer taking his time, he has a very savvy 5th yr/grad student no freezing there. I think he wanted to see which way Joseph might have wanted to go.
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on November 17, 2024, 04:59:44 PMAnnouncers in the St. Olaf game mentioned that 3 of their players from last year transferred to D1. Anyone know who those were besides Morgan? I'd be interested to see how they fared this year playing up 2 divisions.
McCloskey went to UNC-Charlotte. Gaulmin went to Akron. Morgan went to Loyola Marymount. All played pretty significant time this season.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 17, 2024, 05:50:16 PMCommentary...
Gutsy, gustsy performance by W&L to travel to Hopkins and advance. Hopkins imo was one of the best teams in the country and had a shot at reaching a Final 4. W&L of course is very good and very tourney-tested. Pleasants and JP Morgan (Ryan) have been playing for W&L since the mid 2010s.
Right before Meyer took his kick I thought....I wonder what happens with this style if the first or second kicker misses one. Doesn't seem so surefire after a miss...and then the reaction to the miss bleeds into the other kickers. Praised like crazy just a week ago, and now we may never see that again. Meyer also hesitated too long and I think kind of froze himself. W&L obviously had a week to study as well.
No as to Meyer freezing imo. He is hops best player in the 5th yr/grad student. I thought he was waiting to which side Joseph was going. Joseph did take the bait and then made a good save off a mediocre PK shot. Sorry to see the PK sky another 5th year/grad. Both are very good players. It's really rough that this is their last thing they do in collegiate soccer.
Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 17, 2024, 06:03:46 PMQuote from: PaulNewman on November 17, 2024, 05:50:16 PMCommentary...
Gutsy, gustsy performance by W&L to travel to Hopkins and advance. Hopkins imo was one of the best teams in the country and had a shot at reaching a Final 4. W&L of course is very good and very tourney-tested. Pleasants and JP Morgan (Ryan) have been playing for W&L since the mid 2010s.
Right before Meyer took his kick I thought....I wonder what happens with this style if the first or second kicker misses one. Doesn't seem so surefire after a miss...and then the reaction to the miss bleeds into the other kickers. Praised like crazy just a week ago, and now we may never see that again. Meyer also hesitated too long and I think kind of froze himself. W&L obviously had a week to study as well.
As to Meyer taking his time, he has a very savvy 5th yr/grad student no freezing there. I think he wanted to see which way Joseph might have wanted to go.
Yeah, I know who he is...one of the very best in the country. He hesitated to the point of questioning which way to go (imo). I thought he needed to step away and set up again.
Quote from: mngopher on November 17, 2024, 06:05:12 PMQuote from: NEsoccerfan on November 17, 2024, 04:59:44 PMAnnouncers in the St. Olaf game mentioned that 3 of their players from last year transferred to D1. Anyone know who those were besides Morgan? I'd be interested to see how they fared this year playing up 2 divisions.
McCloskey went to UNC-Charlotte. Gaulmin went to Akron. Morgan went to Loyola Marymount. All played pretty significant time this season.
Morgan started all 17 games for Loyola Marymount. Gaulmin started 17 out of 19 games for Akron. McCloskey played the least of the three, but he played minutes in all 17 games.
They were all 5th year seniors using their Covid year.
So....Amherst is hosting the Wisconsin Invitational....and CMS and Trinity head to Vermont. Beautiful college town. Got married there. But not exactly the trip I wanna make from CA or TX. I assume they will fly into Burlington. Obviously no direct flights to Burlington.
Quote from: Kuiper on November 17, 2024, 05:55:44 PMHALF: Buffalo State 1 - Tufts 0
Buffalo State gets a goal in the 42nd minute to take the 1-0 lead going into halftime. First the Westfield St. game and now this. Tufts keeps living dangerously.
In the 57th minute, it's still Buffalo State 1 - Tufts 0
Tufts is outshooting them 16-2, but only 3-2 in shots on goal and they are tied 1-1 on corners.
Meyer took too long over the ball, absolutely. He tends to take an extra beat, but never as long as tonight. Agree with Spaghetti Sauce... Should've reset.
Quote from: Kuiper on November 17, 2024, 05:55:44 PMHALF: Buffalo State 1 - Tufts 0
Buffalo State gets a goal in the 42nd minute to take the 1-0 lead going into halftime. First the Westfield St. game and now this. Tufts keeps living dangerously.
Conn's upward trajectory the past few weeks has been matched by Tufts downward struggles, says this NESCAC observer . . .
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 17, 2024, 06:20:34 PMMeyer took too long over the ball, absolutely. He tends to take an extra beat, but never as long as tonight. Agree with Spaghetti Sauce... Should've reset.
I thought it was salad dressing and popcorn and frozen pizza, but spaghetti sauce too?
I was pulling hard for Hopkins, not necessarily against W&L, but similar to Kenyon they've been good enough to make a F4 over the past six to eight years.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 17, 2024, 06:14:08 PMSo....Amherst is hosting the Wisconsin Invitational....and CMS and Trinity head to Vermont. Beautiful college town. Got married there. But not exactly the trip I wanna make from CA or TX. I assume they will fly into Burlington. Obviously no direct flights to Burlington.
Not ideal by any means and just one more burden of playing in Region X. On the other hand, both CMS and Trinity have more experience flying places this season than Bowdoin did when it flew to Texas. CMS to Minnesota (v. St. Olaf and Mary Hardin-Baylor) and then to Colorado (v. Colorado College), while Trinity also flew to Colorado (v. Colorado College). Trinity has it a little easier because it's only a one hour time difference. The three hour time difference for CMS is a killer, but Occidental did it last year and played pretty well against Amherst. I think they either have to go through O'Hare or JFK to get to Burlington. Fortunately, both are really easy airports and never have flight delays or disruptions. ;)
UPDATE: Buffalo State 1 - Tufts 1 in the 68th minute
Tufts equalizes in the 62nd minute on a poor clearance that is lobbed back into the box and pops around until collected and Clivio puts into the right corner on the ground with his left foot.
Quote from: Kuiper on November 17, 2024, 06:26:04 PMQuote from: PaulNewman on November 17, 2024, 06:14:08 PMSo....Amherst is hosting the Wisconsin Invitational....and CMS and Trinity head to Vermont. Beautiful college town. Got married there. But not exactly the trip I wanna make from CA or TX. I assume they will fly into Burlington. Obviously no direct flights to Burlington.
Not ideal by any means and just one more burden of playing in Region X. On the other hand, both CMS and Trinity have more experience flying places this season than Bowdoin did when it flew to Texas. CMS to Minnesota (v. St. Olaf and Mary Hardin-Baylor) and then to Colorado (v. Colorado College), while Trinity also flew to Colorado (v. Colorado College). Trinity has it a little easier because it's only a one hour time difference. The three hour time difference for CMS is a killer, but Occidental did it last year and played pretty well against Amherst. I think they either have to go through O'Hare or JFK to get to Burlington. Fortunately, both are really easy airports and never have flight delays or disruptions. ;)
They shouldn't experience any delays at BTV (Patrick Leahy Burlington International Airport). However, getting an Uber after 10:00 pm....dicey.
Trinity arguably should have been a top 4 seed. 19-0-3 deserves better.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 17, 2024, 06:24:46 PMQuote from: Hopkins92 on November 17, 2024, 06:20:34 PMMeyer took too long over the ball, absolutely. He tends to take an extra beat, but never as long as tonight. Agree with Spaghetti Sauce... Should've reset.
I thought it was salad dressing and popcorn and frozen pizza, but spaghetti sauce too?
I was pulling hard for Hopkins, not necessarily against W&L, but similar to Kenyon they've been good enough to make a F4 over the past six to eight years.
Sauce, too. Quite good, if not up to Rao level.
Sigh. Felt like they might squeeze this one out in the end, but a deserved win for the Generals.
Congrats to Another Mom and jknezek all their supporters. Hard fought, clean game. (I mean, W&L likes to tug on jerseys, but whatever. I like the way they play and nothing even close to dirty about that game. Respect all around.)
Stevens 1 Amherst 1 (Amherst progresses)
Not for the first time this season, Amherst dominated play and for those with a particular shade of purple in their hearts, it would be nice to maybe have one or two more goals to show for it. Stevens stuck to their task and got rewarded for their perseverance very late.
If Amherst spirits were down as a result, it didn't really show and whilst I wasn't able to watch Operating Thetan time properly I had a foreboding sense that penalties were the most likely outcome.
There is a lottery element to penalties, but ultimately, it's a test of composure and technique and today the three young men who stepped up for Amherst demonstrated faultless execution. This included one of the freshmen who hasn't seen a lot of game time this year, but proved that a particularly cold bit of ice runs through his veins as he calmly dispatched the third kick.
Of course, the senior keeper who successfully kept out W&L last season, did it again when it counted.
Commiserations to the Ducks, they hung in there and showed serious grit. For Amherst, a boost for the confidence and whilst the games are definitely not getting any easier from now on, they continue to impress me with their resolve.
Foul count: Stevens 15 Amherst 18
I don't understand the hating on Hopkins PK style. It was massively effective in conference (in fact all 5 were unstoppable). So they missed two this time. Last I saw there were plenty of "traditional" PKs missed or saved this weekend.
Quote from: Kuiper on November 17, 2024, 06:29:36 PMUPDATE: Buffalo State 1 - Tufts 1 in the 68th minute
Tufts equalizes in the 62nd minute on a poor clearance that is lobbed back into the box and pops around until collected and Clivio puts into the right corner on the ground with his left foot.
Of course.
Meanwhile, I don't think anyone mentioned that another NESCAC exited with Babson knocking out Wesleyan. FIVE left and an All-NESCAC F4 still in play.
Quote from: EnmoreCat on November 17, 2024, 06:35:02 PMOf course, the senior keeper who successfully kept out W&L last season, did it again when it counted.
Was Landa (the pride of La Canada HS) hurt this season? He played 15 minutes all season in the Emerson game in mid-October where he departed early and then suddenly he starts both NCAA tournament games and plays 110 minutes after playing 62 in the first game.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 17, 2024, 06:40:01 PMQuote from: Kuiper on November 17, 2024, 06:29:36 PMUPDATE: Buffalo State 1 - Tufts 1 in the 68th minute
Tufts equalizes in the 62nd minute on a poor clearance that is lobbed back into the box and pops around until collected and Clivio puts into the right corner on the ground with his left foot.
Of course.
Meanwhile, I don't think anyone mentioned that another NESCAC exited with Babson knocking out Wesleyan. FIVE left and an All-NESCAC F4 still in play.
Babson is quite good. Midd handed the Beavers its only loss of the season, a 3-0 result, but game was far closer than the score indicates. I said at the time, "We can very well see this team again in the post-season."
Quote from: Ejay on November 17, 2024, 06:39:33 PMI don't understand the hating on Hopkins PK style. It was massively effective in conference (in fact all 5 were unstoppable). So they missed two this time. Last I saw there were plenty of "traditional" PKs missed or saved this weekend.
I certainly felt confident going in that if this game got to PKs, Hop was gonna win.
I don't think they abandon the tactic. But nothing is sure fire and as I said above, November Madness is x2 or x3 the pressure... maybe higher... than a conference tournament where it wasn't a make or break situation.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 17, 2024, 06:46:31 PMI certainly felt confident going in that if this game got to PKs, Hop was gonna win.
I don't think they abandon the tactic. But nothing is sure fire and as I said above, November Madness is x2 or x3 the pressure... maybe higher... than a conference tournament where it wasn't a make or break situation.
Had no idea about the conference championship so will give them the benefit of the doubt, and I get it's one way to mitigate bad execution due to the inverse problem (a run-up that is too long). I had just never seen an entire rotation of kickers do a one-step run-up.
END OF REGULATION: Buffalo St. 1 - Tufts 1
Tufts had a header go off the post with about 2 minutes left and Buffalo State had a half chance from outside the box, but neither could score. Tufts is outshooting Buffalo State 26-5, but still only 5-3 in shots on goal. On to OT
There is a logic error some of us made with the Hopkins pks. We assumed it might be nearly foolproof because last week we saw all five make it and seemed like they could knock in another 10 in a row if they wanted. It DID almost seem like an ace-in-the-hole if they went to pks again. But we didn't consider the psychology of a miss, especially from your most trusted player, and all the sudden the "foolproofness" folds like a cheap suit. And as soon as he missed I thought the pressure on the next guy was immense. You get the accuracy (if exceuted well) but not necessarily the power. They also iirc didn't hit any low (this week or last week but I could have that wrong).
Well... 5th time in 6 years W&L is in to the Sweet 16. They avenged the 2018 first round loss to Johns Hopkins... also a pk finish, and move on to another NESCAC challenge. 3x during this run they've been stopped by a NESCAC school, but there is also last year's win over Tufts mixed in.
I have to admit, they looked like a team lost in the wilderness when I saw them at Sewanee and Covenant, and while I expected them to compete for the ODAC, I wasn't too sure the individual quality was going to gel with a new coach and system.
But a runner up in the conference season, an ODAC tournament title, and a return to the Sweet 16, at least, is a testament to this team improving and growing throughout the season.
Well done gentlemen, and keep the fight going in weekend 2.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 17, 2024, 06:14:08 PMSo....Amherst is hosting the Wisconsin Invitational....and CMS and Trinity head to Vermont. Beautiful college town. Got married there. But not exactly the trip I wanna make from CA or TX. I assume they will fly into Burlington. Obviously no direct flights to Burlington.
Assuming Amherst is hosting I would applaud the NCAA for actually spending some travel money on the D3 soccer tournament. At the same time I am very frustrated with the bracketing if that is the case. Why do all the North region teams have to be in the same sectional if they are going to be flown out anyways? Flip the Denison pod with the Gustavus pod, and the Colorado College pod with the UW Eau Claire pod. Let's see some matchups we don't usually get to see if we are going to spend the money to fly teams out for the 3rd/4th rounds.
What a double-save from the Buff State GK! Wow.
END OF FIRST OT: Buffalo St. 1 - Tufts 1
It was an OT full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. On the 2OT
It looks like W&L, Trinity, and Amherst are the only schools with both men's and women's teams through to the Sweet 16.
Quote from: blooter442 on November 17, 2024, 06:53:56 PMQuote from: Hopkins92 on November 17, 2024, 06:46:31 PMI certainly felt confident going in that if this game got to PKs, Hop was gonna win.
I don't think they abandon the tactic. But nothing is sure fire and as I said above, November Madness is x2 or x3 the pressure... maybe higher... than a conference tournament where it wasn't a make or break situation.
Had no idea about the conference championship so will give them the benefit of the doubt, and I get it's one way to mitigate bad execution due to the inverse problem (a run-up that is too long). I had just never seen an entire rotation of kickers do a one-step run-up.
As I said, there's a lot of chatter in the Mid-Atlantic thread about it. It was wild to watch and the fact that it was so successful put the doubts at bay. Today... Has me on the fence.
It's weird.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 17, 2024, 07:19:27 PMQuote from: blooter442 on November 17, 2024, 06:53:56 PMQuote from: Hopkins92 on November 17, 2024, 06:46:31 PMI certainly felt confident going in that if this game got to PKs, Hop was gonna win.
I don't think they abandon the tactic. But nothing is sure fire and as I said above, November Madness is x2 or x3 the pressure... maybe higher... than a conference tournament where it wasn't a make or break situation.
Had no idea about the conference championship so will give them the benefit of the doubt, and I get it's one way to mitigate bad execution due to the inverse problem (a run-up that is too long). I had just never seen an entire rotation of kickers do a one-step run-up.
As I said, there's a lot of chatter in the Mid-Atlantic thread about it. It was wild to watch and the fact that it was so successful put the doubts at bay. Today... Has me on the fence.
It's weird.
The fact that it was successful in the Centennial final may have motivated W&L to practice facing those kind of PKs once they found out they were seeded in the same pod. It's not unstoppable, but there are different tells and strategies.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 17, 2024, 06:14:08 PMSo....Amherst is hosting the Wisconsin Invitational....and CMS and Trinity head to Vermont. Beautiful college town. Got married there. But not exactly the trip I wanna make from CA or TX. I assume they will fly into Burlington. Obviously no direct flights to Burlington.
Trinity(TX) is certainly accustomed to flying way back east for sectionals in any number of sports. It doesn't hurt as much when that's what chalk says should be done as is the case this year (but doesn't make the task any easier).
I think it was two years ago when three of the four women's basketball sectionals were held in Massachusetts, and it was definitely *not* chalk but penny-pinching. That happens to island teams way too much and it's to be seen if the NCAA's loosening of the travel purse strings will address that at all.
On to PKs in Buffalo State-Tufts
Let's hope neither team tries the same run up PK style that Stevens deployed today as they missed 3 in a row.
Quote from: Kuiper on November 17, 2024, 06:58:11 PMTufts is outshooting Buffalo State 26-5, but still only 5-3 in shots on goal.
At the end of 2OT, 31-7 and 7-5. :o
However this goes, great showing by Buff St. Played their hearts out.
Quote from: blooter442 on November 17, 2024, 07:31:19 PMQuote from: Kuiper on November 17, 2024, 06:58:11 PMTufts is outshooting Buffalo State 26-5, but still only 5-3 in shots on goal.
At the end of 2OT, 31-7 and 7-5. :o
A LOT of very pretty build-up play and very errant shots for Tufts.
No chance Amherst goes to Wisconsin? Seems like that makes the most cost effective sense if you take seeding out of the picture--wasn't this weekend intended to be the women's hosting turn at Amherst, too?
And if Tufts goes out, does Williams host?
Buffalo State wins in PKs over Tufts!
Love seeing a state school take out a NESCAC
Woooooooowwwwww.
Super wow. Biggest upset since when??
Super wow. Biggest upset since when??
Down to four...but All-NESCAC F4 still alive. Gotta be perfect from here on out.
Every Tufts kicker looked like a linebacker. That Clivio is a very large man.
lol @ the Buffalo State goalkeeper (my MOTM) waving to the home support as he and his teammates ran by on their way to celebrate with their fans.
Quote from: LibbyMoore on November 17, 2024, 07:34:16 PMNo chance Amherst goes to Wisconsin? Seems like that makes the most cost effective sense if you take seeding out of the picture--wasn't this weekend intended to be the women's hosting turn at Amherst, too?
And if Tufts goes out, does Williams host?
Tufts could host??
Quote from: LibbyMoore on November 17, 2024, 07:34:16 PMNo chance Amherst goes to Wisconsin? Seems like that makes the most cost effective sense if you take seeding out of the picture--wasn't this weekend intended to be the women's hosting turn at Amherst, too?
And if Tufts goes out, does Williams host?
Going by NPI, Amherst women should not host. Loras should. W&L women should host. But the men will certainly travel, so that's no big deal. Christopher Newport should host, and Wash U if they get through tonight, Messiah if they don't.
Those should be the top remaining seeds by NPI in each quadrant, so unless the NCAA goes cheap, they should host. But even if they go cheap, there aren't obvious alternatives given the teams remaining.
No real conflict with the men.
Quote from: blooter442 on November 17, 2024, 07:45:51 PMlol @ the Buffalo State goalkeeper (my MOTM) waving to the home support as he and his teammates ran by on their way to celebrate with their fans.
Seemed like a lot sh*t talking from that group of Tufts students and that place is generally a cauldron.
Two or three of the Buff St kickers make a point of shushing those fans. Pretty funny to watch.
The SUNYAC is not the MASCAC...and Buff St was the best team in the SUNYAC pretty much all season. Sure, the shot chart doesn't look great but Buff St is a good, very gritty team. Buff St and Wisc-Sup both have had great seasons. And Wisc-Sup advancing is maybe the bigger upset.
Buffalo State was the lowest ranking Pool C bid (non-Automatic Qualifier) in the tournament and I think is the second lowest ranking team left next to Wisconsin-Superior.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 17, 2024, 06:33:07 PMQuote from: Kuiper on November 17, 2024, 06:26:04 PMQuote from: PaulNewman on November 17, 2024, 06:14:08 PMSo....Amherst is hosting the Wisconsin Invitational....and CMS and Trinity head to Vermont. Beautiful college town. Got married there. But not exactly the trip I wanna make from CA or TX. I assume they will fly into Burlington. Obviously no direct flights to Burlington.
Not ideal by any means and just one more burden of playing in Region X. On the other hand, both CMS and Trinity have more experience flying places this season than Bowdoin did when it flew to Texas. CMS to Minnesota (v. St. Olaf and Mary Hardin-Baylor) and then to Colorado (v. Colorado College), while Trinity also flew to Colorado (v. Colorado College). Trinity has it a little easier because it's only a one hour time difference. The three hour time difference for CMS is a killer, but Occidental did it last year and played pretty well against Amherst. I think they either have to go through O'Hare or JFK to get to Burlington. Fortunately, both are really easy airports and never have flight delays or disruptions. ;)
They shouldn't experience any delays at BTV (Patrick Leahy Burlington International Airport). However, getting an Uber after 10:00 pm....dicey.
Trinity arguably should have been a top 4 seed. 19-0-3 deserves better.
Had a family from Kenya come visit us once for their son's graduation from Middlebury. Magdalena, the family matriarch, described their last leg of travel this way: "We landed at the Vermont airport, got into a car, and then drove deeper and deeper into the bush."
Best ever description of travel to Midd.
Is it possible that the Hopkins style of play just doesn't work in the tournament? Their endless possession just doesnt seem to consistently create chances against teams that are solid defensively. Maybe they sometimes make a small run but I could never see them winning the 6/6 needed to win a tournament.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 17, 2024, 07:50:42 PMQuote from: blooter442 on November 17, 2024, 07:45:51 PMlol @ the Buffalo State goalkeeper (my MOTM) waving to the home support as he and his teammates ran by on their way to celebrate with their fans.
Seemed like a lot sh*t talking from that group of Tufts students and that place is generally a cauldron.
Two or three of the Buff St kickers make a point of shushing those fans. Pretty funny to watch.
A lot of masculinity flying around...including from Tufts players. Not sure that's what you do with a bunch of kids from Buffalo.
Drive home safely and enjoy your off-season.
Quote from: Garden12 on November 17, 2024, 07:55:25 PMIs it possible that the Hopkins style of play just doesn't work in the tournament? Their endless possession just doesnt seem to consistently create chances against teams that are solid defensively. Maybe they sometimes make a small run but I could never see them winning the 6/6 needed to win a tournament.
This reminds me of "why does Guardiola's City run the PL winning 6 of the last 7 but only win the CL once?" Controlled possession is usually a safer bet over the course of a league season, but it can be countered in knockout situations by the right tactics and/or a little bit of luck (e.g. Chelsea in the UCL final of 2021).
I may just be happy to not have to listen to The Tufts commentating - the excitement is one thing, but the level of bias I'm not sure I've heard on many other broadcasts
Quote from: Garden12 on November 17, 2024, 07:55:25 PMIs it possible that the Hopkins style of play just doesn't work in the tournament? Their endless possession just doesnt seem to consistently create chances against teams that are solid defensively. Maybe they sometimes make a small run but I could never see them winning the 6/6 needed to win a tournament.
Your question is valid, but I would just point back to my earlier comments about this game... They really didn't play the classic "Hopkins Possession Style" because their best defender, Mikel Andersen, was out due to injury.
The style is fine, but kind of down the path you set us on, I'm not sure when the guns truly start firing that it's a good system. But, honestly, today isn't a very good evaluation. Firmly in "it is what is is" territory today.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 17, 2024, 07:56:06 PMQuote from: Hopkins92 on November 17, 2024, 07:50:42 PMQuote from: blooter442 on November 17, 2024, 07:45:51 PMlol @ the Buffalo State goalkeeper (my MOTM) waving to the home support as he and his teammates ran by on their way to celebrate with their fans.
Seemed like a lot sh*t talking from that group of Tufts students and that place is generally a cauldron.
Two or three of the Buff St kickers make a point of shushing those fans. Pretty funny to watch.
A lot of masculinity flying around...including from Tufts players. Not sure that's what you do with a bunch of kids from Buffalo.
Drive home safely and enjoy your off-season.
I think adults make too much of this, to be honest.
So much chirping in Midd-Vassar game between players on the field, benches, etc. And then the game ends. Players shake hands and hug and move on. So much less angst and teeth-gnashing than we see among fans or message boards.
Quote from: Garden12 on November 17, 2024, 07:55:25 PMIs it possible that the Hopkins style of play just doesn't work in the tournament? Their endless possession just doesnt seem to consistently create chances against teams that are solid defensively. Maybe they sometimes make a small run but I could never see them winning the 6/6 needed to win a tournament.
Maybe. That has been a concern for Hopkins fans (or at least this one) for some time. This year's team seemed capable of playing a number of styles, however. As I noted earlier, they have demonstrated an ability to absorb a lot of pressure and then play more directly (Centennial Conference semi-final v. Dickinson). I thought they had the upper hand in the second half of today's game and in the two overtimes after nearly getting run off the field in the first half.
That said, they are never going to be volume shooters. They spend a lot of time and effort (maybe too much) trying to get good shots instead of ripping it from 20 yds on occasion. Jason Pan's game winner yesterday was a notable exception to the rule.
Quote from: Hopkins Walk-On on November 17, 2024, 08:09:24 PMQuote from: Garden12 on November 17, 2024, 07:55:25 PMIs it possible that the Hopkins style of play just doesn't work in the tournament? Their endless possession just doesnt seem to consistently create chances against teams that are solid defensively. Maybe they sometimes make a small run but I could never see them winning the 6/6 needed to win a tournament.
Maybe. That has been a concern for Hopkins fans (or at least this one) for some time. This year's team seemed capable of playing a number of styles, however. As I noted earlier, they have demonstrated an ability to absorb a lot of pressure and then play more directly (Centennial Conference semi-final v. Dickinson). I thought they had the upper hand in the second half of today's game and in the two overtimes after nearly getting run off the field in the first half.
That said, they are never going to be volume shooters. They spend a lot of time and effort (maybe too much) trying to get good shots instead of ripping it from 20 yds on occasion. Jason Pan's game winner yesterday was a notable exception to the rule.
Quote from: Hopkins Walk-On on November 17, 2024, 08:09:24 PMQuote from: Garden12 on November 17, 2024, 07:55:25 PMIs it possible that the Hopkins style of play just doesn't work in the tournament? Their endless possession just doesnt seem to consistently create chances against teams that are solid defensively. Maybe they sometimes make a small run but I could never see them winning the 6/6 needed to win a tournament.
Maybe. That has been a concern for Hopkins fans (or at least this one) for some time. This year's team seemed capable of playing a number of styles, however. As I noted earlier, they have demonstrated an ability to absorb a lot of pressure and then play more directly (Centennial Conference semi-final v. Dickinson). I thought they had the upper hand in the second half of today's game and in the two overtimes after nearly getting run off the field in the first half.
That said, they are never going to be volume shooters. They spend a lot of time and effort (maybe too much) trying to get good shots instead of ripping it from 20 yds on occasion. Jason Pan's game winner yesterday was a notable exception to the rule.
Even having a slight upper hand they really didn't have any clear cut chances. The goal was a gift from W&L. Not having their best CB definitely played a role but who knows how much. And even if they won what were the odds of them getting through Williams.
Quote from: Newenglander on November 17, 2024, 08:02:41 PMI may just be happy to not have to listen to The Tufts commentating - the excitement is one thing, but the level of bias I'm not sure I've heard on many other broadcasts
Haha. Then you have never listened to that gaslighter from Middlebury :)
Quote from: Bucket on November 17, 2024, 08:05:58 PMQuote from: PaulNewman on November 17, 2024, 07:56:06 PMQuote from: Hopkins92 on November 17, 2024, 07:50:42 PMQuote from: blooter442 on November 17, 2024, 07:45:51 PMlol @ the Buffalo State goalkeeper (my MOTM) waving to the home support as he and his teammates ran by on their way to celebrate with their fans.
Seemed like a lot sh*t talking from that group of Tufts students and that place is generally a cauldron.
Two or three of the Buff St kickers make a point of shushing those fans. Pretty funny to watch.
A lot of masculinity flying around...including from Tufts players. Not sure that's what you do with a bunch of kids from Buffalo.
Drive home safely and enjoy your off-season.
I think adults make too much of this, to be honest.
So much chirping in Midd-Vassar game between players on the field, benches, etc. And then the game ends. Players shake hands and hug and move on. So much less angst and teeth-gnashing than we see among fans or message boards.
Would a review of your Amherst posts over the years support the above?
PN says, [/quote]
So many life and faith lessons, and yet an awful lot of entitlement about winning comes with Messiah. Not sure I've ever seen a totally clean pro-Messiah post accepting a loss in a genuinely gracious way...would have, should have, wanted to give full credit but somehow there's always a reason convenient enough or manufactured not to do so. I do agree, though, that Messiah produces outstanding young men and women...and I was rooting hard for the Falcons today.
[/quote]
PN, I'm surprised to hear this from you, since we've both been here a long time. :o
I have no idea where comments from past years are found, but if you can find them, you will see me giving unqualified congratulations to ONU last fall and to many other teams who've beaten the Falcons in past seasons, including in regular season games. Call that a little challenge. :-)
This season, for example, you will find me giving high praise to Dickinson for finally defeating the Falcons, after failing to get a single result in 40 previous contests. Indeed, a few more times I repeated my opinion that this year's version of the Red Devils is the best one I've ever seen. If that constitutes entitlement, then we apparently have different definitions of that word.
Likewise, I have often stated quite honestly what the Falcons' problems were early in the season. I said they weren't up to snuff and offered my analysis of the reasons--including a point about not having as much talent as they have had recently. Did that constitute entitlement? Or, simply a fair assessment of the facts?
And--going way back, but you and I both go that far back, before this board even existed. I said often in the previous decade that the Falcons didn't deserve the 2010 nattie, because there was a huge uncalled foul that gave the Falcons an undeserved game-tying goal in the last few seconds of regulation. They then won in OT. But, that season, Lynchburg was in my mind the true national champion. They got robbed. Was that more entitlement? Since I've said that repeatedly, it doesn't sound like entitlement simply to say that a huge uncalled foul cost the Falcons the game today. That's just a fact. Not entitlement.
Quote from: Bucket on November 17, 2024, 08:05:58 PMQuote from: PaulNewman on November 17, 2024, 07:56:06 PMQuote from: Hopkins92 on November 17, 2024, 07:50:42 PMQuote from: blooter442 on November 17, 2024, 07:45:51 PMlol @ the Buffalo State goalkeeper (my MOTM) waving to the home support as he and his teammates ran by on their way to celebrate with their fans.
Seemed like a lot sh*t talking from that group of Tufts students and that place is generally a cauldron.
Two or three of the Buff St kickers make a point of shushing those fans. Pretty funny to watch.
A lot of masculinity flying around...including from Tufts players. Not sure that's what you do with a bunch of kids from Buffalo.
Drive home safely and enjoy your off-season.
I think adults make too much of this, to be honest.
So much chirping in Midd-Vassar game between players on the field, benches, etc. And then the game ends. Players shake hands and hug and move on. So much less angst and teeth-gnashing than we see among fans or message boards.
Would a review of your Amherst posts over the years support the above?
For the record, from a very neutral vantage, Messiah folks have been pretty objective and humble on this board. I've actually come to root for them, in large part because the supporters and fan base seem to be genuinely humble and straight-forward in their approach.
And I'm not trying to stir the pot, but there are some NESCAC folks on this board that have, over the years, not been all that endearing to the general populous.
Quote from: Falconer on November 17, 2024, 08:19:47 PMPN says,
So many life and faith lessons, and yet an awful lot of entitlement about winning comes with Messiah. Not sure I've ever seen a totally clean pro-Messiah post accepting a loss in a genuinely gracious way...would have, should have, wanted to give full credit but somehow there's always a reason convenient enough or manufactured not to do so. I do agree, though, that Messiah produces outstanding young men and women...and I was rooting hard for the Falcons today.
[/quote]
PN, I'm surprised to hear this from you, since we've both been here a long time. :o
I have no idea where comments from past years are found, but if you can find them, you will see me giving unqualified congratulations to ONU last fall and to many other teams who've beaten the Falcons in past seasons, including in regular season games. Call that a little challenge. :-)
This season, for example, you will find me giving high praise to Dickinson for finally defeating the Falcons, after failing to get a single result in 40 previous contests. Indeed, a few more times I repeated my opinion that this year's version of the Red Devils is the best one I've ever seen. If that constitutes entitlement, then we apparently have different definitions of that word.
Likewise, I have often stated quite honestly what the Falcons' problems were early in the season. I said they weren't up to snuff and offered my analysis of the reasons--including a point about not having as much talent as they have had recently. Did that constitute entitlement? Or, simply a fair assessment of the facts?
And--going way back, but you and I both go that far back, before this board even existed. I said often in the previous decade that the Falcons didn't deserve the 2010 nattie, because there was a huge uncalled foul that gave the Falcons an undeserved game-tying goal in the last few seconds of regulation. They then won in OT. But, that season, Lynchburg was in my mind the true national champion. They got robbed. Was that more entitlement? Since I've said that repeatedly, it doesn't sound like entitlement simply to say that a huge uncalled foul cost the Falcons the game today. That's just a fact. Not entitlement.
[/quote]
OK, I guess you're not a homer and don't feel entitled. I've got no interest in doing research on your behalf. Interesting that you picked out my post when others thought you were ridiculous for asking for a red. Also interesting because I gave a lot of praise to Messiah, how they competed, and said I was rooting for them. And they didn't lose because of that one play, 80 yards from where the goal was scored.
Quote from: Dustin_Patrón on November 17, 2024, 03:53:15 PMThe ref had a great position and that "foul" looks like it belongs in an acting class. Williams scored the goal and won the game. Messiah didn't do nearly enough to deserve a result today.
Also, why are the messiah players always winners in life? Are the Williams players losers in life then? Not sure what you're getting at bird man.
Dustin,
I tried to reply to this about 20 minutes ago, before typing the reply to PN that you see above. For some reason my reply disappeared into cyberspace. So, let me try to reconstruct it.
I apologize for giving you the wrong impression. I certainly didn't mean to imply that the Williams players are "losers." I know I didn't say that, but I see why you might think I meant it anyway.
In fact, I added that as a final encouragement to the Falcon players, who must be feeling a bit down after the way the game ended on a bad non-call. I have several times in past seasons praised the Falcon players for their character and sportsmanship, using similar language. I don't recall if I did so earlier this year, but maybe I did somewhere. Anyway, it's well known here and elsewhere that Falcon opponents often credit them for class and sportsmanship, win or lose. The same can be said for many other D3 soccer teams; I only wish it could be said of every single one. As was pointed out above by a Falcon alum (in another sport), that's really the whole point of having IC sports at Messiah: to teach young men and women how to respond to what life throws at them. If character building weren't the heart and soul of athletics at Messiah, then Messiah would not sponsor any teams. That's really true. And, I am sure it's really true in many other places. (We're on the same page, Blooter.)
So, Dustin, no offense intended. If I had meant to offend, I'd have done so directly and without any ambiguity. A few times I have done that here and I don't regret those occasions, since I spoke the truth as I saw it. Still, I apologize for the lack of clarity in this instance.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 17, 2024, 08:28:41 PMOK, I guess you're not a homer and don't feel entitled. I've got no interest in doing research on your behalf. Interesting that you picked out my post when others thought you were ridiculous for asking for a red. Also interesting because I gave a lot of praise to Messiah, how they competed, and said I was rooting for them. And they didn't lose because of that one play, 80 yards from where the goal was scored.
PN, we both know I'm a homer--and so are you. :D
Others with more objectivity have said my call for a red card was unwarranted. I accept their view as more objective than mine, though nearly everyone agrees that play should have been called back (which is the heart of the matter). Given that neither team had scored for more than 100 minutes, it seems reasonable to conclude that the Falcons did lose because of that one play. What should have happened, by nearly all accounts, is that Messiah should have had a free kick from a fairly dangerous place. We can't know what would have followed, but there's no reason to believe that Williams would then have marched down the field and scored after stealing the ball.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 17, 2024, 08:26:32 PMFor the record, from a very neutral vantage, Messiah folks have been pretty objective and humble on this board. I've actually come to root for them, in large part because the supporters and fan base seem to be genuinely humble and straight-forward in their approach.
Much obliged, Hopkins02. Please let me say this about you: you're always honest, objective, humble, and well informed in your comments.
Regarding Messiah-Williams, definitely a missed call, but per the game recap Williams seems to think they were earlier robbed of a PK (I didn't see that part of game so I have no idea) ... in all events, a perfect feed and finish on the GW.
I assume Williams as both top remaining seed and the most centrally located team will host the sectional?
On a separate note, if the 16 remaining teams had to be ranked from 1-16 on most likely to take it all home. How would it look?
Falconer, my last thing on this. You're logic is not following for me. Once you say that one call or non-call decided the game you can go back to 20 other things during the whole contest that could compete for title of "decided the game" status. My other point is that Messiah still could have defended that better...it was a missed call on the far end of the field. Your best point may be the offensive chance Messiah lost out on...but again, but that wasn't their only chance, right? These all the other corners and set pieces. The bottom line is that Messiah did not score...and iirc, that makes almost 215 or os minutes that Messiah failed to score against Williams and Diffley.
I was proud of the way Messiah played. It was extremely physical, Williams was probably bigger, and Messiah competed like crazy. Most of the games today I thought were played at a very high level of intensity.
Times for the third round games are posted on the NCAA website bracket with no mention of locations (that I can find). If those are correct, it seems like Amherst is getting sent to Wisconsin. Seems like other hosts are Middlebury, Mary Washington, and Williams.
Quote from: Garden12 on November 17, 2024, 08:53:24 PMOn a separate note, if the 16 remaining teams had to be ranked from 1-16 on most likely to take it all home. How would it look?
That's an awesome idea!! New thread??
Quote from: nescac1 on November 17, 2024, 08:50:05 PMRegarding Messiah-Williams, definitely a missed call, but per the game recap Williams seems to think they were earlier robbed of a PK (I didn't see that part of game so I have no idea) ... in all events, a perfect feed and finish on the GW.
I assume Williams as both top remaining seed and the most centrally located team will host the sectional?
Ultimately in world that is not perfect, the only way to solve it or take control is to put the ball in the net.
Teams Remaining and the 11/10 NPI
Middlebury 1
C-M-S 31
Trinity 8
Babson 10
Total: 50
Amherst 4
Wisc Sup 72
Wisc EC 7
Wisc Plat 21
Total: 104
Buff St 33
Dickinson 17
Williams 6
W&L 18
Total: 74
MWC 3
Denison 14
Conn Col 5
Kenyon 12
Total: 34
The tightest remaining quad is Mary Washington. The loosest is Amherst. In theory, Williams has the easiest remaining quad with no other team in the top 10. Mary Washington has, by far the hardest path through their quad by NPI.
If we were to reseed, and we don't shift the NPI for the first 2 rounds, it would look like this:
Middlebury 1
Wisc Sup 72
Williams 6
W&L 18
Total: 98
MWC 3
Buff State 33
Wisc EC 7
Dickinson 17
Total: 60
Amherst 4
C-M-S 31
Trinity 8
Denison 14
Total: 57
Conn Col 5
Wisc Plat 21
Babson 10
Kenyon 12
Total: 48
Honestly, the chalk has held up pretty well. Tufts (2) is the big upset, followed by Johns Hopkins (9), Gustavus Adolphus (11), Colorado College (13), St. Olaf (15), and Wesleyan (16). And even then, not a single one of the top 21 by NPI lost in the first round.
Cortland at 22, losing to Messiah, is the highest NPI to lose the opening game. Muhlenberg (26), North Park (27), Ogelthorpe (28), and Rowan (29) round out teams losing in the first round in the top half of the bracket.
Ogelthorpe lost to C-M-S (31), another team in the top 32, so that was going to be a below NPI game for someone.
Overall, the NPI system did a fair job of seeding teams in my opinion based on these results. Other than Wisc-Superior, there just aren't any true outliers. They beat teams 27 and 15 by NPI, so a solid run for a team at 72.
In the end, there are only 4 teams below 20 in the Sweet Sixteen, and 3 of those teams won a game on PKs to get there. Add in W&L's win on PKs, and of the 6 teams below 16 in NPI, C-M-S and Dickinson are the only teams who got to round 3 without a PK win.
I still have my doubts about the NESCAC deserving 8 bids. If you look closely, the bottom 3 NESCAC at-large bids, Bowdoin, Wesleyan and Hamilton, did what was expected, first round wins, before bowing out. Tufts underperformed, and the remaining 4 are where rankings suggest they should be. I'm not convinced Mount Union, York and Covenant would have done any better or worse than Bowdoin, Wesleyan and Hamilton, and that's the rub. I've never said the top to top middle of the conference didn't deserve bids. The NESCAC is the premiere conference and deserves to get more of their teams in until that changes. But do they deserve to get a pile of their middle to lower middle teams in?
The dials give the NESCAC the advantage, but the results show they were no better than what should have been expected. So should they have gotten 8 bids? Hard to argue no, since they did what was expected, hard to argue yes since they did no better than what was expected. My personal preference is to spread those bids around to teams that win rather than give one conference a huge benefit of the doubt for teams with a whole bunch of "power ties", but the dials will need some tweaking for that to happen.
On to weekend 2!
Quote from: jknezek on November 17, 2024, 10:05:34 PMTeams Remaining and the 11/10 NPI
Middlebury 1
C-M-S 31
Trinity 8
Babson 10
Total: 50
Amherst 4
Wisc Sup 72
Wisc EC 7
Wisc Plat 21
Total: 104
Buff St 33
Dickinson 17
Williams 6
W&L 18
Total: 74
MWC 3
Denison 14
Conn Col 5
Kenyon 12
Total: 34
The tightest remaining quad is Mary Washington. The loosest is Amherst. In theory, Williams has the easiest remaining quad with no other team in the top 10. Mary Washington has, by far the hardest path through their quad by NPI.
If we were to reseed, and we don't shift the NPI for the first 2 rounds, it would look like this:
Middlebury 1
Wisc Sup 72
Williams 6
W&L 18
Total: 98
MWC 3
Buff State 33
Wisc EC 7
Dickinson 17
Total: 60
Amherst 4
C-M-S 31
Trinity 8
Denison 14
Total: 57
Conn Col 5
Wisc Plat 21
Babson 10
Kenyon 12
Total: 48
Honestly, the chalk has held up pretty well. Tufts (2) is the big upset, followed by Johns Hopkins (9), Gustavus Adolphus (11), Colorado College (13), St. Olaf (15), and Wesleyan (16). And even then, not a single one of the top 21 by NPI lost in the first round.
Cortland at 22, losing to Messiah, is the highest NPI to lose the opening game. Muhlenberg (26), North Park (27), Ogelthorpe (28), and Rowan (29) round out teams losing in the first round in the top half of the bracket.
Ogelthorpe lost to C-M-S (31), another team in the top 32, so that was going to be a below NPI game for someone.
Overall, the NPI system did a fair job of seeding teams in my opinion based on these results. Other than Wisc-Superior, there just aren't any true outliers. They beat teams 27 and 15 by NPI, so a solid run for a team at 72.
In the end, there are only 4 teams below 20 in the Sweet Sixteen, and 3 of those teams won a game on PKs to get there. Add in W&L's win on PKs, and of the 6 teams below 16 in NPI, C-M-S and Dickinson are the only teams who got to round 3 without a PK win.
I still have my doubts about the NESCAC deserving 8 bids. If you look closely, the bottom 3 NESCAC at-large bids, Bowdoin, Wesleyan and Hamilton, did what was expected, first round wins, before bowing out. Tufts underperformed, and the remaining 4 are where rankings suggest they should be. I'm not convinced Mount Union, York and Covenant would have done any better or worse than Bowdoin, Wesleyan and Hamilton, and that's the rub. I've never said the top to top middle of the conference didn't deserve bids. The NESCAC is the premiere conference and deserves to get more of their teams in until that changes. But do they deserve to get a pile of their middle to lower middle teams in?
The dials give the NESCAC the advantage, but the results show they were no better than what should have been expected. So should they have gotten 8 bids? Hard to argue no, since they did what was expected, hard to argue yes since they did no better than what was expected. My personal preference is to spread those bids around to teams that win rather than give one conference a huge benefit of the doubt for teams with a whole bunch of "power ties", but the dials will need some tweaking for that to happen.
On to weekend 2!
The NPI isn't meant to be predictive. One of the main factors in predictive metrics is margin of victory. UW Superior is a good example of this. They play in a bad conference, but they dominated. 16-0 in conference games with 13 of them by 3 or more goals. Then some very close losses to highly ranked teams - GAC and UWP.
Middlebury and Mary Washington say they are home next weekend. W&L says they are at Dickinson. Wisc EC says they are at home.
Geographically and monetarily these decisions make sense. Seeding, less so.
Middlebury's quad was going to require 2 or 3 flights. Middlebury is the highest seed and only requires 2. That makes sense.
Amherst should host, but that would require 3 flights instead of 1. Unlucky.
Williams should host, but W&L would have to fly. Dickinson is driving for all and is the second seed. Unlucky.
Mary Washington is the high seed and within 500 miles of the entire pod. That makes sense.
For those who missed it, here is a link to a video of Claremont-Mudd-Scripps' golden goal, scored by Rafael Otero, to beat Colorado College in 2OT. Really impressive skill to thread that needle
https://www.instagram.com/reel/DCfVACcSNgA/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
Quote from: blooter442 on November 17, 2024, 08:00:46 PMQuote from: Garden12 on November 17, 2024, 07:55:25 PMIs it possible that the Hopkins style of play just doesn't work in the tournament? Their endless possession just doesnt seem to consistently create chances against teams that are solid defensively. Maybe they sometimes make a small run but I could never see them winning the 6/6 needed to win a tournament.
This reminds me of "why does Guardiola's City run the PL winning 6 of the last 7 but only win the CL once?" Controlled possession is usually a safer bet over the course of a league season, but it can be countered in knockout situations by the right tactics and/or a little bit of luck (e.g. Chelsea in the UCL final of 2021).
Except change the facts to Ancelotti's Los Blancos and you get a different outcome. Not to mention a tournament of the best teams from Europe's top flights is much more competitive than a season within one league top to bottom that also includes newly promoted sides. I digress as this is not about professional football.
As far as a 6 game winner take all tournament success Messiah has the hardware, and my understanding is many consider them to play a possession game. Not sure if this view has been consistent over the years.
The short answer to Kuiper's question re the Amherst keeper is, "yes".
My understanding is that Amherst is heading to Eau Claire. I look forward to learning more about it and UW Superior.
Quote from: oacalum on November 17, 2024, 09:53:21 PMTimes for the third round games are posted on the NCAA website bracket with no mention of locations (that I can find). If those are correct, it seems like Amherst is getting sent to Wisconsin. Seems like other hosts are Middlebury, Mary Washington, and Williams.
The printable bracket has the hosts indicated — Mary Washington, Dickinson, Wisconsin Eau Claire and Middlebury
Is Wisconsin EC the $hitty field lined for football?
Quote from: oacalum on November 17, 2024, 09:53:21 PMTimes for the third round games are posted on the NCAA website bracket with no mention of locations (that I can find). If those are correct, it seems like Amherst is getting sent to Wisconsin. Seems like other hosts are Middlebury, Mary Washington, and Williams.
As I understand it, the host gets to pick which games are in which time slots, so it's no surprise that Middlebury chose the 10:30 am eastern time first game for its match with Claremont-Mudd-Scripps. That means CMS players will feel like they are playing at 7:30 am pacific. Brutal.
Dickinson and Wisconsin-Eau Claire, by contrast, are hosting and chose to play the later game slots.
The fact that it was successful in the Centennial final may have motivated W&L to practice facing those kind of PKs once they found out they were seeded in the same pod. It's not unstoppable, but there are different tells and strategies.
[/quote]
Of course W&L knew about Hopkins' unique style of taking pks, and of course they practiced.
It was a good game and as someone else said, Hopkins gave respect to the W&L team by playing 5 in their back line for the first half.
Quote from: Kuiper on November 18, 2024, 12:08:56 AMQuote from: oacalum on November 17, 2024, 09:53:21 PMTimes for the third round games are posted on the NCAA website bracket with no mention of locations (that I can find). If those are correct, it seems like Amherst is getting sent to Wisconsin. Seems like other hosts are Middlebury, Mary Washington, and Williams.
As I understand it, the host gets to pick which games are in which time slots, so it's no surprise that Middlebury chose the 10:30 am eastern time first game for its match with Claremont-Mudd-Scripps. That means CMS players will feel like they are playing at 7:30 am pacific. Brutal.
Dickinson and Wisconsin-Eau Claire, by contrast, are hosting and chose to play the later game slots.
I think it goes by seed...and hence Amherst playing first and also Williams.
Quote from: SKUD on November 17, 2024, 11:40:40 PMIs Wisconsin EC the $hitty field lined for football?
At least maybe better than Dickinson's grass.
Quote from: Another Mom on November 18, 2024, 12:17:53 AMThe fact that it was successful in the Centennial final may have motivated W&L to practice facing those kind of PKs once they found out they were seeded in the same pod. It's not unstoppable, but there are different tells and strategies.
Of course W&L knew about Hopkins' unique style of taking pks, and of course they practiced.
It was a good game and as someone else said, Hopkins gave respect to the W&L team by playing 5 in their back line for the first half.
[/quote]
I would love to know how they practiced for it, the ones I watched left me guessing which way they would go!
First, our gk knew the Hopkins players were waiting for him to make a move, so he didn't. Also, by not running up, if they were right footed, they pretty much had to go right (hard to kick across your body), and finally, it is hard to get much power on it from a standstill.
All this is from the "press conference" after the game, and another one of my sons, who is a gk.
Quote from: Falconer on November 17, 2024, 08:44:07 PMQuote from: PaulNewman on November 17, 2024, 08:28:41 PMOK, I guess you're not a homer and don't feel entitled. I've got no interest in doing research on your behalf. Interesting that you picked out my post when others thought you were ridiculous for asking for a red. Also interesting because I gave a lot of praise to Messiah, how they competed, and said I was rooting for them. And they didn't lose because of that one play, 80 yards from where the goal was scored.
PN, we both know I'm a homer--and so are you. :D
Others with more objectivity have said my call for a red card was unwarranted. I accept their view as more objective than mine, though nearly everyone agrees that play should have been called back (which is the heart of the matter). Given that neither team had scored for more than 100 minutes, it seems reasonable to conclude that the Falcons did lose because of that one play. What should have happened, by nearly all accounts, is that Messiah should have had a free kick from a fairly dangerous place. We can't know what would have followed, but there's no reason to believe that Williams would then have marched down the field and scored after stealing the ball.
I had a pretty good view of the play preceding the goal and it was obviously a foul. That being said, anyone who watched the entirety of the game and the ref's reluctance to blow his whistle and issue cards for fouls on either side of the ball couldn't be too surprised with the no-call. From early on it was very clear that he was going to let the boys play hard and that was consistent to the end.
On the separate matter of Messiah's temperament, they deserve a tip of the hat for taking the result without much complaint. However, they aren't a bunch of Franciscan monks and there was as much in-your-face jawing and chest-thumping as I've seen all season.
Tough, well-contested game. On to the next.
Quote from: pittsfieldpete on November 18, 2024, 06:39:22 AMI had a pretty good view of the play preceding the goal and it was obviously a foul. That being said, anyone who watched the entirety of the game and the ref's reluctance to blow his whistle and issue cards for fouls on either side of the ball couldn't be too surprised with the no-call. From early on it was very clear that he was going to let the boys play hard and that was consistent to the end.
If the foul is in the box, I can see swallowing your whistle if you don't want to make a call that alters the game; the irony of which is that swallowing the whistle on a foul 40 yards from goal is exactly what altered the game.
So maybe not the correct thread for this. But I don't think the statements about how a ref officiated a game should matter. That was an atrocious no-call. context should not matter for an official to do their job. This play is an easy interpretation of the rule book. If people are saying this was how the entire game was officiated than these officials need to be removed and sent back to U8.
Quote from: Kuiper on November 17, 2024, 04:27:07 PMColorado College almost ties it up in the 54th minute, but the ref blows the whistle on a yellow card foul instead of playing advantage and a goal scored is negated. CC players have a right to be upset about not playing on, but once the ref blows the whistle it's over.
CMS is pinned back now. It's been one way traffic for awhile as Colorado College has dialed up the pressure in search of the equalizer.
A lot of talk about "game changing" ref errors on the board, but this one takes the cake. First, the foul happened arguably in or at the edge of the box, and the ensuing goal happened immediately thereafter. Second, the ref immediately told the players he "f'd" up by blowing his whistle prematurely. His words. In the 54th minute. ... I guess in D3 soccer this is what we get.
Quote from: wihsuafs24 on November 18, 2024, 08:20:10 AMQuote from: Kuiper on November 17, 2024, 04:27:07 PMColorado College almost ties it up in the 54th minute, but the ref blows the whistle on a yellow card foul instead of playing advantage and a goal scored is negated. CC players have a right to be upset about not playing on, but once the ref blows the whistle it's over.
CMS is pinned back now. It's been one way traffic for awhile as Colorado College has dialed up the pressure in search of the equalizer.
A lot of talk about "game changing" ref errors on the board, but this one takes the cake. First, the foul happened arguably in or at the edge of the box, and the ensuing goal happened immediately thereafter. Second, the ref immediately told the players he "f'd" up by blowing his whistle prematurely. His words. In the 54th minute. ... I guess in D3 soccer this is what we get.
That's kind of what happens everywhere. Refs are people. People make mistakes. Watch an NFL game and see how many times those ref's miss something. Or a World Cup match. Even at the highest levels, the "hand of god" play can somehow happen. Or Lampard's non-goal.
It sucks. Especially when it explicitly affects the outcome of a game. As a former ref I know I made wrong calls. We all try not to, but it happens. It's unavoidable. I always felt players and fans have the right to grumble and complain, but not be abusive.
So far all I've heard are grumbles and complaints, so I say have at it. It's a long season and it doesn't deserve to end because of mistakes, but that's a darn good life lesson because, as we all know and our parents told us many times, life isn't fair.
All a ref can do is his/her best. We are always in desperate need of refs, especially these days as it feels like parents and spectators have worse and worse behavior, so if you think you can do better, I encourage you to take the classes, work your way up the ranks, and get involved with these matches. It's not easy, but the game needs people to take on the challenge and, all too often these days, the abuse, in order for the game to stay alive.
It was one of many missed calls and bad calls. I was there and the officiating was the worst I have witnessed in over 20 years of watching soccer at all levels. And no, it was not just a "physical game" And no, the poor officiating was not just calls for and against both teams. And yes, I am a homer; but I can tell you I had no issues with officiating when the Falcons lost to Williams 2 years ago and ONU last year. The CR didn't officiate the game. He inserted himself and affected it. In the 2nd half there was on offsides called on a break way and it would have been 1v1 with MU's goal leader vs. Diffey. The call was not only made by the CR and not the AR; but I have rewatched the call. Not only was he on sides by 2 yards, the ball played by MU player was flicked back by WC player. It is just unfortunate that the CR had such an impact. Finally, when is the last time a NESCAC team had less fouls against a non NESCAC opponent, especially one like MU who historically rarely commits more fouls than its opponents. Good luck Another Mom. Will cheering for your boys.
Quote from: Fitz@615 on November 18, 2024, 08:35:52 AMIt was one of many missed calls and bad calls. I was there and the officiating was the worst I have witnessed in over 20 years of watching soccer at all levels. And no, it was not just a "physical game" And no, the poor officiating was not just calls for and against both teams. And yes, I am a homer; but I can tell you I had no issues with officiating when the Falcons lost to Williams 2 years ago and ONU last year. The CR didn't officiate the game. He inserted himself and affected it. In the 2nd half there was on offsides called on a break way and it would have been 1v1 with MU's goal leader vs. Diffey. The call was not only made by the CR and not the AR; but I have rewatched the call. Not only was he on sides by 2 yards, the ball played by MU player was flicked back by WC player. It is just unfortunate that the CR had such an impact. Finally, when is the last time a NESCAC team had less fouls against a non NESCAC opponent, especially one like MU who historically rarely commits more fouls than its opponents. Good luck Another Mom. Will cheering for your boys.
Will try and find the full game to watch, but FYI, the center official in that game has officiated at numerous NCAA College Cup finals and works regularly in the SEC and other DI conferences. You may disagree with how the game was officiated; he may have had a bad day. I will reserve judgment until I can watch the match. To suggest the official is unqualified is both incorrect and unfair.
Referee mistakes/errors are part of the game - humans are imperfect. I have seen poorly officiated games by supposed D1 and MLS refs. No trying to minimize the impact that some errors can have (I recall a stone cold handling violation not called in a semifinal two years ago) but at the end of the day I would bet that most of the players would point to the opportunties that they did not take instead of a referee error for why the game was not won.
Quote from: eaglesoccerdad on November 18, 2024, 08:51:05 AMReferee mistakes/errors are part of the game - humans are imperfect. I have seen poorly officiated games by supposed D1 and MLS refs. No trying to minimize the impact that some errors can have (I recall a stone cold handling violation not called in a semifinal two years ago) but at the end of the day I would bet that most of the players would point to the opportunties that they did not take instead of a referee error for why the game was not won.
I can understand this POV to an extent - but when the margins are so fine and so tight in an NCAA tournament match, I think a glaring refereeing mistake overrides your disappointment at missed chances, since its an element of the match that is not within your control.
Players can accept missed chances and poor defending, as its easier to take ownership of those moments (as it is within a player's control).
On the whole - Messiah v Williams was spectacular entertainment. Felt like a blockbuster NCAA matchup. Open, direct soccer with lots of physicality and chippy play. Desire and fight from both teams. Had a rivalry edge to it because of the result 2 years ago.
Quote from: Mr_November on November 18, 2024, 09:20:34 AMQuote from: eaglesoccerdad on November 18, 2024, 08:51:05 AMReferee mistakes/errors are part of the game - humans are imperfect. I have seen poorly officiated games by supposed D1 and MLS refs. No trying to minimize the impact that some errors can have (I recall a stone cold handling violation not called in a semifinal two years ago) but at the end of the day I would bet that most of the players would point to the opportunties that they did not take instead of a referee error for why the game was not won.
I can understand this POV to an extent - but when the margins are so fine and so tight in an NCAA tournament match, I think a glaring refereeing mistake overrides your disappointment at missed chances, since its an element of the match that is not within your control.
Players can accept missed chances and poor defending, as its easier to take ownership of those moments (as it is within a player's control).
Agreed. That said, I don't think my son is perseverating over that call as much as we are. He is a senior and is busy mourning the end of a career. I'm sure there are many memories of poor refs in there somewhere (including a ref he would get perennially at Stewart Field who explicitly told him he had it out for him and indeed handed him YCs in every match he officiated), but our hope is that there are many, many more that do not involve men in brightly colored shorts waving flags.
Good luck to everyone left in the tournament. These are special years for all our players.
Also a former referee, player, parent and still a fan of the game as well as a sometimes disinterested party, I I've looked at these games from many different perspectives.
Ultimately imo, it is about control. Two teams meet in a tournament, one is going to come out the winner. Control what you can control which comes down to putting the ball in the back of the net. Stuff happens. All the teams who got the 2nd round of the NCAAs have had great seasons. Through 17 plus games this year, they've beaten out 375 teams in D3 to make it to this point.
Quote from: jknezek on November 18, 2024, 08:35:14 AMQuote from: wihsuafs24 on November 18, 2024, 08:20:10 AMQuote from: Kuiper on November 17, 2024, 04:27:07 PMColorado College almost ties it up in the 54th minute, but the ref blows the whistle on a yellow card foul instead of playing advantage and a goal scored is negated. CC players have a right to be upset about not playing on, but once the ref blows the whistle it's over.
CMS is pinned back now. It's been one way traffic for awhile as Colorado College has dialed up the pressure in search of the equalizer.
A lot of talk about "game changing" ref errors on the board, but this one takes the cake. First, the foul happened arguably in or at the edge of the box, and the ensuing goal happened immediately thereafter. Second, the ref immediately told the players he "f'd" up by blowing his whistle prematurely. His words. In the 54th minute. ... I guess in D3 soccer this is what we get.
That's kind of what happens everywhere. Refs are people. People make mistakes. Watch an NFL game and see how many times those ref's miss something. Or a World Cup match. Even at the highest levels, the "hand of god" play can somehow happen. Or Lampard's non-goal.
It sucks. Especially when it explicitly affects the outcome of a game. As a former ref I know I made wrong calls. We all try not to, but it happens. It's unavoidable. I always felt players and fans have the right to grumble and complain, but not be abusive.
So far all I've heard are grumbles and complaints, so I say have at it. It's a long season and it doesn't deserve to end because of mistakes, but that's a darn good life lesson because, as we all know and our parents told us many times, life isn't fair.
All a ref can do is his/her best. We are always in desperate need of refs, especially these days as it feels like parents and spectators have worse and worse behavior, so if you think you can do better, I encourage you to take the classes, work your way up the ranks, and get involved with these matches. It's not easy, but the game needs people to take on the challenge and, all too often these days, the abuse, in order for the game to stay alive.
This needs to be reiterated a thousand times over.
Quote from: blooter442 on November 17, 2024, 08:00:46 PMQuote from: Garden12 on November 17, 2024, 07:55:25 PMIs it possible that the Hopkins style of play just doesn't work in the tournament? Their endless possession just doesnt seem to consistently create chances against teams that are solid defensively. Maybe they sometimes make a small run but I could never see them winning the 6/6 needed to win a tournament.
This reminds me of "why does Guardiola's City run the PL winning 6 of the last 7 but only win the CL once?" Controlled possession is usually a safer bet over the course of a league season, but it can be countered in knockout situations by the right tactics and/or a little bit of luck (e.g. Chelsea in the UCL final of 2021).
Funny you mention Pep, as he is one of Coach Appleby's guiding lights. (Per an interview with Simple Coach.) Beyond the possession style, an under-reported aspect of a Guidiola team is the extreme urgency they place on immediately retrieving the ball after a turnover. Hopkins is very pesky in this regard.
To W&L's credit, they were very good about shrugging off this pressure and doing their own thing, especially in the first half. The pressure started paying off more in the second half and OTs.
Williams v Washington & Lee will be a mouth watering match-up.
I thought W&L's game management vs. Otterbein in the first round was quite good. I would favor Williams to advance but I do think W&L have a silent confidence about them. They know how to get a job done. #8 is the epitome of this silent bravado/charisma, IMO.
Furthermore, if Dickinson advances, it would be interesting to see how they fare vs Williams (should they both happen to meet in the Elite 8). Williams have a stout defense, but can they shut down Iwowo and Jarden, and keep them quiet for a full match?
W&L vs. Dickinson would also be a fascinating Elite 8 match-up.
Of course, I am not sleeping on Buffalo State, who came out victorious over the mighty (though underperforming) Jumbos. I simply haven't seen any Buff State games this season. Will be interested to see how they do vs. Dickinson in the Sweet 16.
In response to Fitz's comment about the fouls committed by nescac sides in comparison to normies:
Fouls are a part of the sport. In fact, fouling is an important tactic that it practiced and coached at the highest level. I don't think we should shine a negative light on it, as Fitz aimed to do--especially when these teams are coming from the most physical conference in the country and are used to refs that often times let them play. Not to mention, these same teams continue to dominate division 3 soccer.
During last year's NBA season, critics were pointing out the Celtics high volume of 3-point shooting, scoffing at their decision to chuck up 3s rather than getting to the paint or posting guys up. This season, the majority of teams are shooting significantly more 3s after watching Boston skip through the playoffs on their way to an 18th championship for the franchise. Even the Celtics have upped their volume to start the year.
Though an imperfect analogy (fouls and 3-pointers are quite different), I think Messiah and other normies can take something from this. Rather than hang your hat on fouling less than other teams, why not coach fouling? Any Nescac team would have immediately fouled the Williams player during that counter attack (or at least tried to) and they probably could've saved a goal.
Quote from: Dustin_Patrón on November 18, 2024, 10:22:40 AMIn response to Fitz's comment about the fouls committed by nescac sides in comparison to normies:
Fouls are a part of the sport. In fact, fouling is an important tactic that it practiced and coached at the highest level. I don't think we should shine a negative light on it, as Fitz aimed to do--especially when these teams are coming from the most physical conference in the country and are used to refs that often times let them play. Not to mention, these same teams continue to dominate division 3 soccer.
During last year's NBA season, critics were pointing out the Celtics high volume of 3-point shooting, scoffing at their decision to chuck up 3s rather than getting to the paint or posting guys up. This season, the majority of teams are shooting significantly more 3s after watching Boston skip through the playoffs on their way to an 18th championship for the franchise. Even the Celtics have upped their volume to start the year.
Though an imperfect analogy (fouls and 3-pointers are quite different), I think Messiah and other normies can take something from this. Rather than hang your hat on fouling less than other teams, why not coach fouling? Any Nescac team would have immediately fouled the Williams player during that counter attack (or at least tried to) and they probably could've saved a goal.
I think we're seeing two contrasting philosophies in sports ethics. NESCAC schools operate out of a mode where you must "win at all costs" rather than "winning the right way". Messiah prides themselves on winning with class and sportsmanship, whereas NESCAC schools don't mind a bit of gamesmanship to get the job done. I don't take issue with either approach. It all just depends on your sports ethics philosophy.
Not sure the 3 point analogy works with soccer, to be completely honest.
If you like to look at some great goals and some pk saves, check this out if you have not already. https://www.instagram.com/div3footy/?hl=en
Quote from: Dustin_Patrón on November 18, 2024, 10:22:40 AMIn response to Fitz's comment about the fouls committed by nescac sides in comparison to normies:
Fouls are a part of the sport. In fact, fouling is an important tactic that it practiced and coached at the highest level. I don't think we should shine a negative light on it, as Fitz aimed to do--especially when these teams are coming from the most physical conference in the country and are used to refs that often times let them play. Not to mention, these same teams continue to dominate division 3 soccer.
During last year's NBA season, critics were pointing out the Celtics high volume of 3-point shooting, scoffing at their decision to chuck up 3s rather than getting to the paint or posting guys up. This season, the majority of teams are shooting significantly more 3s after watching Boston skip through the playoffs on their way to an 18th championship for the franchise. Even the Celtics have upped their volume to start the year.
Though an imperfect analogy (fouls and 3-pointers are quite different), I think Messiah and other normies can take something from this. Rather than hang your hat on fouling less than other teams, why not coach fouling? Any Nescac team would have immediately fouled the Williams player during that counter attack (or at least tried to) and they probably could've saved a goal.
Messiah has more titles than every NESCAC team combined. I don't think they need any tips
Conn college seems to be cruising as of late, with two blowout wins (4-1, 3-0). They travel to Mary Washington to play Kenyon, who just squeaked by fellow NESCAC Hamilton.
How far can this team go? And if they find themselves vs Mary Washington in the Elite 8, who has the upper hand in that match?
Quote from: Mr_November on November 18, 2024, 10:30:41 AMQuote from: Dustin_Patrón on November 18, 2024, 10:22:40 AMIn response to Fitz's comment about the fouls committed by nescac sides in comparison to normies:
Fouls are a part of the sport. In fact, fouling is an important tactic that it practiced and coached at the highest level. I don't think we should shine a negative light on it, as Fitz aimed to do--especially when these teams are coming from the most physical conference in the country and are used to refs that often times let them play. Not to mention, these same teams continue to dominate division 3 soccer.
During last year's NBA season, critics were pointing out the Celtics high volume of 3-point shooting, scoffing at their decision to chuck up 3s rather than getting to the paint or posting guys up. This season, the majority of teams are shooting significantly more 3s after watching Boston skip through the playoffs on their way to an 18th championship for the franchise. Even the Celtics have upped their volume to start the year.
Though an imperfect analogy (fouls and 3-pointers are quite different), I think Messiah and other normies can take something from this. Rather than hang your hat on fouling less than other teams, why not coach fouling? Any Nescac team would have immediately fouled the Williams player during that counter attack (or at least tried to) and they probably could've saved a goal.
I think we're seeing two contrasting philosophies in sports ethics. NESCAC schools operate out of a mode where you must "win at all costs" rather than "winning the right way". Messiah prides themselves on winning with class and sportsmanship, whereas NESCAC schools don't mind a bit of gamesmanship to get the job done. I don't take issue with either approach. It all just depends on your sports ethics philosophy.
Not sure the 3 point analogy works with soccer, to be completely honest.
The analogy is presented to show that other teams noticed the trend and adapted their own play. Agreed that fouls and 3-pointers are quite different as I stated in my initial post. Just saying that the normies might want to eat intentional fouls at a much higher rate, especially in the tournament and especially against a nescac side.
Also, what does fouling have anything to do with class, sportsmanship or "winning the right way"?? Watch the highest level of soccer and you'll see teams fouling on counter attacks, time wasting, diving etc.
I think we need to separate these soccer tactics from non-soccer offenses like taunting, gesturing to the fans etc.
Quote from: Mr_November on November 18, 2024, 10:30:41 AMQuote from: Dustin_Patrón on November 18, 2024, 10:22:40 AMIn response to Fitz's comment about the fouls committed by nescac sides in comparison to normies:
Fouls are a part of the sport. In fact, fouling is an important tactic that it practiced and coached at the highest level. I don't think we should shine a negative light on it, as Fitz aimed to do--especially when these teams are coming from the most physical conference in the country and are used to refs that often times let them play. Not to mention, these same teams continue to dominate division 3 soccer.
During last year's NBA season, critics were pointing out the Celtics high volume of 3-point shooting, scoffing at their decision to chuck up 3s rather than getting to the paint or posting guys up. This season, the majority of teams are shooting significantly more 3s after watching Boston skip through the playoffs on their way to an 18th championship for the franchise. Even the Celtics have upped their volume to start the year.
Though an imperfect analogy (fouls and 3-pointers are quite different), I think Messiah and other normies can take something from this. Rather than hang your hat on fouling less than other teams, why not coach fouling? Any Nescac team would have immediately fouled the Williams player during that counter attack (or at least tried to) and they probably could've saved a goal.
I think we're seeing two contrasting philosophies in sports ethics. NESCAC schools operate out of a mode where you must "win at all costs" rather than "winning the right way". Messiah prides themselves on winning with class and sportsmanship, whereas NESCAC schools don't mind a bit of gamesmanship to get the job done. I don't take issue with either approach. It all just depends on your sports ethics philosophy.
Not sure the 3 point analogy works with soccer, to be completely honest.
The only way this comment is acceptable is if it is sarcasm.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 18, 2024, 10:17:13 AMQuote from: blooter442 on November 17, 2024, 08:00:46 PMQuote from: Garden12 on November 17, 2024, 07:55:25 PMIs it possible that the Hopkins style of play just doesn't work in the tournament? Their endless possession just doesnt seem to consistently create chances against teams that are solid defensively. Maybe they sometimes make a small run but I could never see them winning the 6/6 needed to win a tournament.
This reminds me of "why does Guardiola's City run the PL winning 6 of the last 7 but only win the CL once?" Controlled possession is usually a safer bet over the course of a league season, but it can be countered in knockout situations by the right tactics and/or a little bit of luck (e.g. Chelsea in the UCL final of 2021).
Funny you mention Pep, as he is one of Coach Appleby's guiding lights. (Per an interview with Simple Coach.) Beyond the possession style, an under-reported aspect of a Guidiola team is the extreme urgency they place on immediately retrieving the ball after a turnover. Hopkins is very pesky in this regard.
To W&L's credit, they were very good about shrugging off this pressure and doing their own thing, especially in the first half. The pressure started paying off more in the second half and OTs.
Losing Andersen who was absolutely spectacular all season long for Sunday's game probably made Coach Appleby rethink his usual formation for the first half. But obviously that was ditched in the second half and the OTs and thought Hopkins had the upper hand from second half on.
Winning the PKs with no run-up in the conference championship (5 out of 5 makes) was pretty special. But it did appear the W&L goalie didn't seem too concerned when he first lined up so I would guess some prep work was done.
Congrats to W&L. Do think this group pod is wide open but think Dickinson is the team to beat.
Ironic that Hopkins went 3 wins and 1 tie this season against the teams left in this pod and is not a part of it.
Good luck to the remaining 16 with a shout out to CMS...let's go west coast.
Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 18, 2024, 10:37:41 AMIf you like to look at some great goals and some pk saves, check this out if you have not already. https://www.instagram.com/div3footy/?hl=en
Oh wow. I hadn't actually seen the Williams goal. Um. Keeper?
That's an unfortunate way to go out.
Quote from: paclassic89 on November 18, 2024, 10:43:43 AMQuote from: Dustin_Patrón on November 18, 2024, 10:22:40 AMIn response to Fitz's comment about the fouls committed by nescac sides in comparison to normies:
Fouls are a part of the sport. In fact, fouling is an important tactic that it practiced and coached at the highest level. I don't think we should shine a negative light on it, as Fitz aimed to do--especially when these teams are coming from the most physical conference in the country and are used to refs that often times let them play. Not to mention, these same teams continue to dominate division 3 soccer.
During last year's NBA season, critics were pointing out the Celtics high volume of 3-point shooting, scoffing at their decision to chuck up 3s rather than getting to the paint or posting guys up. This season, the majority of teams are shooting significantly more 3s after watching Boston skip through the playoffs on their way to an 18th championship for the franchise. Even the Celtics have upped their volume to start the year.
Though an imperfect analogy (fouls and 3-pointers are quite different), I think Messiah and other normies can take something from this. Rather than hang your hat on fouling less than other teams, why not coach fouling? Any Nescac team would have immediately fouled the Williams player during that counter attack (or at least tried to) and they probably could've saved a goal.
Messiah has more titles than every NESCAC team combined. I don't think they need any tips
Different story when you look at the most recent years but touché.
Take a gander at the offsides call at the 38:30 mark of 2nd half, made by the CR.
I wouldn't say the stats bear you out. W&L outshot hopkins and had many more corners. Our gk had to make very few saves.
Quote from: Mr_November on November 18, 2024, 10:30:41 AMQuote from: Dustin_Patrón on November 18, 2024, 10:22:40 AMIn response to Fitz's comment about the fouls committed by nescac sides in comparison to normies:
Fouls are a part of the sport. In fact, fouling is an important tactic that it practiced and coached at the highest level. I don't think we should shine a negative light on it, as Fitz aimed to do--especially when these teams are coming from the most physical conference in the country and are used to refs that often times let them play. Not to mention, these same teams continue to dominate division 3 soccer.
During last year's NBA season, critics were pointing out the Celtics high volume of 3-point shooting, scoffing at their decision to chuck up 3s rather than getting to the paint or posting guys up. This season, the majority of teams are shooting significantly more 3s after watching Boston skip through the playoffs on their way to an 18th championship for the franchise. Even the Celtics have upped their volume to start the year.
Though an imperfect analogy (fouls and 3-pointers are quite different), I think Messiah and other normies can take something from this. Rather than hang your hat on fouling less than other teams, why not coach fouling? Any Nescac team would have immediately fouled the Williams player during that counter attack (or at least tried to) and they probably could've saved a goal.
I think we're seeing two contrasting philosophies in sports ethics. NESCAC schools operate out of a mode where you must "win at all costs" rather than "winning the right way". Messiah prides themselves on winning with class and sportsmanship, whereas NESCAC schools don't mind a bit of gamesmanship to get the job done. I don't take issue with either approach. It all just depends on your sports ethics philosophy.
Not sure the 3 point analogy works with soccer, to be completely honest.
seems like a bit of a sweeping generalization on all fronts.........
Quote from: Fitz@615 on November 18, 2024, 11:04:11 AMTake a gander at the offsides call at the 38:30 mark of 2nd half, made by the CR.
Video is not helpful here as you cannot see where the Messiah player is in relation to the second to last defender when the ball is played by his teammate near Messiah's endline. The officials were using headsets to communicate. There is no way the refereee made this call without input. If the AR has the Messiah forward in an offside position when the ball is last played by a teammate, he will verbalize that to the referee. The referee concluded that the Williams player attempting to head the ball was a deflection and not a controlled play. That aspect of the play was correctly officiated. The Williams player has to make a desperate leap for the ball as it bounces over his head. This is a textbook example of what both IFAB/FIFA and the NCAA consider a deflection and not a deliberate play that would reset offside. The only thing that is not clear from the video is whether the attacker from Messiah was in an offside position when his teammate sent the long ball.
Quote from: Another Mom on November 18, 2024, 11:05:20 AMI wouldn't say the stats bear you out. W&L outshot hopkins and had many more corners. Our gk had to make very few saves.
Traditionally JHU doesn't take many shots, looking for a small number of high quality opportunities. It's not unusual for them to play an opponent straight up, or control a game, and still have fewer shots. For example, in the non-conf matchup that I think Hopkins controlled pretty easily, they took 8 shots to W&L's 16, and both put 5 on frame. So this game, where I'd say there is no doubt W&L had the better of play in the first half and it looked reasonably even if a slight lean to Hopkins in the second half, I'm not surprised it 19(4), 8(2). I think a tie result was pretty fair for how the game went.
Pks are pks... I really don't count them as a victory for W&L anymore than I count them as a win for Amherst in last year's Final Four. One team has to go through, so we use the method. But overall, it's a garbage way to settle a game.
As for the style, I do believe quantity has a quality all it's own. You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. On the other hand, you might miss a better opportunity spraying a shot from 20+ yards out. 2 sides of that coin and I do believe there is a happy medium to aim for. Hopkins, to me, is a bit too conservative for my taste. Especially at the D3 level. But I also hate seeing 20-25 shots per game with 3 or 4 on target. If you are going for quantity, you need to put at least 1/3 of your shots on target. If you are going to be real selective, you better put more like 50%+ on frame.
Quote from: Another Mom on November 18, 2024, 11:05:20 AMI wouldn't say the stats bear you out. W&L outshot hopkins and had many more corners. Our gk had to make very few saves.
Fair enough. The number of corners in that second was pretty significant. And without having to go back and forth maybe the word is momentum seemed more on the Hopkins side as the game carried on. As has been mentioned many times before, Hopkins does often look for the perfect set up and shot and kudos to the W&L defenders, they didn't allow too many of those.
Again, congrats to W&L and good luck...would enjoy seeing a W&L/Dickinson quarterfinal.
But being on the West Coast, little shout out to CMS...they'd have a ton of supporters if they can get to Vegas...3+ hour drive...without traffic :)
Three University of Wisconsin State Schools in the Sweet Sixteen. Impressive
Too bad all three are in the same quadrant
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 18, 2024, 10:54:38 AMQuote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 18, 2024, 10:37:41 AMIf you like to look at some great goals and some pk saves, check this out if you have not already. https://www.instagram.com/div3footy/?hl=en
Oh wow. I hadn't actually seen the Williams goal. Um. Keeper?
That's an unfortunate way to go out.
Yup, as you know, one mistake . . . while playing a great game. Like they say, the ball had to get past 10 other players till this. How many highlights of missed shots, though??? Life isn't fair.
CSO. Can you elucidate the no call 6 yards from CR in MU half in 2OT that led to transition game winning goal?
Quote from: College Soccer Observer on November 18, 2024, 11:19:03 AMQuote from: Fitz@615 on November 18, 2024, 11:04:11 AMTake a gander at the offsides call at the 38:30 mark of 2nd half, made by the CR.
Video is not helpful here as you cannot see where the Messiah player is in relation to the second to last defender when the ball is played by his teammate near Messiah's endline. The officials were using headsets to communicate. There is no way the refereee made this call without input. If the AR has the Messiah forward in an offside position when the ball is last played by a teammate, he will verbalize that to the referee. The referee concluded that the Williams player attempting to head the ball was a deflection and not a controlled play. That aspect of the play was correctly officiated. The Williams player has to make a desperate leap for the ball as it bounces over his head. This is a textbook example of what both IFAB/FIFA and the NCAA consider a deflection and not a deliberate play that would reset offside. The only thing that is not clear from the video is whether the attacker from Messiah was in an offside position when his teammate sent the long ball.
https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/championships/sports/soccer/rules/2022-23PRXSO_RulesQuestionsInterpretationsV1.pdf (https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/championships/sports/soccer/rules/2022-23PRXSO_RulesQuestionsInterpretationsV1.pdf)
Quote from: jknezek on November 18, 2024, 11:22:36 AMSo this game, where I'd say there is no doubt W&L had the better of play in the first half and it looked reasonably even if a slight lean to Hopkins in the second half, I'm not surprised it 19(4), 8(2). I think a tie result was pretty fair for how the game went.
Similar to Argentina's loss to Saudi Arabia in the 2022 Cup. If overall stats determine which team had the better play or even worse deserve to win Argentina's run would have been much less memorable.
Quote from: Ponder on November 18, 2024, 10:46:09 AMConn college seems to be cruising as of late, with two blowout wins (4-1, 3-0). They travel to Mary Washington to play Kenyon, who just squeaked by fellow NESCAC Hamilton.
How far can this team go? And if they find themselves vs Mary Washington in the Elite 8, who has the upper hand in that match?
I think Kenyon has a real chance. The confidence of coming back in the last seconds of the Hamilton game paired with more added minutes from Duratovic bodes well for their chances at an upset. I'm hearing some more injured players could also make their return, so for a team that has been struck with injuries, might be getting more and more healthy. Going to have to play a perfect game against Conn College though. There's little to no room for error.
Anyone have any predictions/commentary for the Mary Wash v Denison matchup? Haven't had the chance to watch any Denison matches this season but have caught plenty of UMW games. How do these two teams match up?
Quote from: Mr_November on November 18, 2024, 10:30:41 AMQuote from: Dustin_Patrón on November 18, 2024, 10:22:40 AMIn response to Fitz's comment about the fouls committed by nescac sides in comparison to normies:
Fouls are a part of the sport. In fact, fouling is an important tactic that it practiced and coached at the highest level. I don't think we should shine a negative light on it, as Fitz aimed to do--especially when these teams are coming from the most physical conference in the country and are used to refs that often times let them play. Not to mention, these same teams continue to dominate division 3 soccer.
During last year's NBA season, critics were pointing out the Celtics high volume of 3-point shooting, scoffing at their decision to chuck up 3s rather than getting to the paint or posting guys up. This season, the majority of teams are shooting significantly more 3s after watching Boston skip through the playoffs on their way to an 18th championship for the franchise. Even the Celtics have upped their volume to start the year.
Though an imperfect analogy (fouls and 3-pointers are quite different), I think Messiah and other normies can take something from this. Rather than hang your hat on fouling less than other teams, why not coach fouling? Any Nescac team would have immediately fouled the Williams player during that counter attack (or at least tried to) and they probably could've saved a goal.
I think we're seeing two contrasting philosophies in sports ethics. NESCAC schools operate out of a mode where you must "win at all costs" rather than "winning the right way". Messiah prides themselves on winning with class and sportsmanship, whereas NESCAC schools don't mind a bit of gamesmanship to get the job done. I don't take issue with either approach. It all just depends on your sports ethics philosophy.
Not sure the 3 point analogy works with soccer, to be completely honest.
This is the same Messiah U that prohibits LGBTQ expression?
Maybe hold off on the "ethics" lesson
Quote from: dacac on November 18, 2024, 01:37:17 PMQuote from: Mr_November on November 18, 2024, 10:30:41 AMQuote from: Dustin_Patrón on November 18, 2024, 10:22:40 AMIn response to Fitz's comment about the fouls committed by nescac sides in comparison to normies:
Fouls are a part of the sport. In fact, fouling is an important tactic that it practiced and coached at the highest level. I don't think we should shine a negative light on it, as Fitz aimed to do--especially when these teams are coming from the most physical conference in the country and are used to refs that often times let them play. Not to mention, these same teams continue to dominate division 3 soccer.
During last year's NBA season, critics were pointing out the Celtics high volume of 3-point shooting, scoffing at their decision to chuck up 3s rather than getting to the paint or posting guys up. This season, the majority of teams are shooting significantly more 3s after watching Boston skip through the playoffs on their way to an 18th championship for the franchise. Even the Celtics have upped their volume to start the year.
Though an imperfect analogy (fouls and 3-pointers are quite different), I think Messiah and other normies can take something from this. Rather than hang your hat on fouling less than other teams, why not coach fouling? Any Nescac team would have immediately fouled the Williams player during that counter attack (or at least tried to) and they probably could've saved a goal.
I think we're seeing two contrasting philosophies in sports ethics. NESCAC schools operate out of a mode where you must "win at all costs" rather than "winning the right way". Messiah prides themselves on winning with class and sportsmanship, whereas NESCAC schools don't mind a bit of gamesmanship to get the job done. I don't take issue with either approach. It all just depends on your sports ethics philosophy.
Not sure the 3 point analogy works with soccer, to be completely honest.
This is the same Messiah U that prohibits LGBTQ expression?
Maybe hold off on the "ethics" lesson
Feel free to disagree, but I'm not entertaining political discussions on this medium.
Also - I would have no clue about Messiah's LGBTQ policy.
Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 18, 2024, 11:36:18 AMQuote from: Hopkins92 on November 18, 2024, 10:54:38 AMQuote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 18, 2024, 10:37:41 AMIf you like to look at some great goals and some pk saves, check this out if you have not already. https://www.instagram.com/div3footy/?hl=en
Oh wow. I hadn't actually seen the Williams goal. Um. Keeper?
That's an unfortunate way to go out.
Yup, as you know, one mistake . . . while playing a great game. Like they say, the ball had to get past 10 other players till this. How many highlights of missed shots, though??? Life isn't fair.
Also, how many highlights of great saves made during all these games.
Quote from: Fitz@615 on November 18, 2024, 11:39:30 AMCSO. Can you elucidate the no call 6 yards from CR in MU half in 2OT that led to transition game winning goal?
Just looked at the video and was able to blow it up and look at it frame by frame. Here are my thoughts. The video is not conclusive to me, and there is only one angle. That being said, my gut instinct is this is a foul. Some thoughts (speculative) on why it was not called:
1. The referee is looking right at the play from the opposite angle to the camera. The Williams player places his left arm on the Messiah player's right shoulder. At this point, it is incidental contact.
2. There is no foot to foot contact by the William's player's left foot to the Messiah player's right foot. I believe this is where the referee's eyes were focused.
3. The left knee of the Williams player appears to have made contact with the knee/quad area of the Messiah player (the Messiah player's right leg appears to move as if contact occurred.)
4. The Messiah player's right leg never returns to the ground as he begins to fall.
As I said before, I think this is probably a foul. I am trying to explain what the referee may have been looking at.
Quote from: Mr_November on November 18, 2024, 01:30:35 PMAnyone have any predictions/commentary for the Mary Wash v Denison matchup? Haven't had the chance to watch any Denison matches this season but have caught plenty of UMW games. How do these two teams match up?
[/quotQuote from: Mr_November on November 18, 2024, 01:30:35 PMAnyone have any predictions/commentary for the Mary Wash v Denison matchup? Haven't had the chance to watch any Denison matches this season but have caught plenty of UMW games. How do these two teams match up?
Denison has sky high confidence right now tossed with a heavy dose of hunger. Dangerous combo. But...the opponent is MWU, so Denison will need to catch a break or two. That said, Denison will absolutely show up expecting to win. A blowout is always in play with MWU, but I would lean towards this one being a real dogfight and very tightly contested. Bianco is a phenomenal coach and you can expect he'll do his homework (including consultation with a certain coach who just played MWU.
Basically would have same comments about the other game in the sectional. MWU and Conn favored but no surprise if any of the four emerge out of the sectional.
Should be two good ones.
Quote from: Mr_November on November 18, 2024, 10:30:41 AMQuote from: Dustin_Patrón on November 18, 2024, 10:22:40 AMIn response to Fitz's comment about the fouls committed by nescac sides in comparison to normies:
Fouls are a part of the sport. In fact, fouling is an important tactic that it practiced and coached at the highest level. I don't think we should shine a negative light on it, as Fitz aimed to do--especially when these teams are coming from the most physical conference in the country and are used to refs that often times let them play. Not to mention, these same teams continue to dominate division 3 soccer.
During last year's NBA season, critics were pointing out the Celtics high volume of 3-point shooting, scoffing at their decision to chuck up 3s rather than getting to the paint or posting guys up. This season, the majority of teams are shooting significantly more 3s after watching Boston skip through the playoffs on their way to an 18th championship for the franchise. Even the Celtics have upped their volume to start the year.
Though an imperfect analogy (fouls and 3-pointers are quite different), I think Messiah and other normies can take something from this. Rather than hang your hat on fouling less than other teams, why not coach fouling? Any Nescac team would have immediately fouled the Williams player during that counter attack (or at least tried to) and they probably could've saved a goal.
I think we're seeing two contrasting philosophies in sports ethics. NESCAC schools operate out of a mode where you must "win at all costs" rather than "winning the right way". Messiah prides themselves on winning with class and sportsmanship, whereas NESCAC schools don't mind a bit of gamesmanship to get the job done. I don't take issue with either approach. It all just depends on your sports ethics philosophy.
Not sure the 3 point analogy works with soccer, to be completely honest.
Mr. November. With all due respect, I have no idea what you are talking about when you say that NESCAC has a "win at all costs" approach rather than doing it the "right way". Whether it's the admission standards which eliminate lots of strong players and, most likely, great kids, the on-field sportsmanship or the character building approach taken by (I can only really speak for Middlebury) it's coaches, I can assure you that Messiah does not have an exclusive on "class". I see no more classy teams when we play out of conference than in. The taking of a "professional foul" in the right way at the critical time is a part of the high level game. Sorry your team lost but please come down off of your off-base high horse and and work on your perspective.
Quote from: Middfan on November 18, 2024, 06:29:13 PMMr. November. With all due respect, I have no idea what you are talking about when you say that NESCAC has a "win at all costs" approach rather than doing it the "right way". Whether it's the admission standards which eliminate lots of strong players and, most likely, great kids, the on-field sportsmanship or the character building approach taken by (I can only really speak for Middlebury) it's coaches, I can assure you that Messiah does not have an exclusive on "class". I see no more classy teams when we play out of conference than in. The taking of a "professional foul" in the right way at the critical time is a part of the high level game. Sorry your team lost but please come down off of your off-base high horse and and work on your perspective.
Middfan and friends, I do apologize for my unheeded comments. It wasn't my intention to place labels on teams. I was merely trying to describe the perception by some folks that some programs have contrasting playing philosophies. For the record, I don't hold anything against ANY D3 programs anywhere in the country. I very much appreciate all styles/philosophies of soccer. That's one of the best parts about D3 Soccer, and thus my eagerness to contribute an unsolicited comment.
I don't claim to owe allegiance to any one program and don't intend to represent a certain subset of users on these boards. Not sure how I got lumped into the Messiah "high-horse" category. I appreciate their program but was not speaking on behalf of the Messiah faithful with my loose comment.
Mr. November, thanks for the clarification and acknowledgment of the weight your criticism may have had. The opportunity these young men have to learn, develop and compete is incredible. From where I stand on the home side of the pitch, I couldn't be more impressed. Let's leave it there.
Anybody have any commentary on Dickinson winning 2-0 over Lynchburg? A mild surprise for me...not necessarily that Dickinson advanced but more the scoreline. A close 2-0 or not so much? I thought Lynchburg over Emory 3-0 was one of the more impressive 1st round showings and iirc Lynchburg performed relatively well against W&L.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2024, 10:26:28 AMAnybody have any commentary on Dickinson winning 2-0 over Lynchburg? A mild surprise for me...not necessarily that Dickinson advanced but more the scoreline. A close 2-0 or not so much? I thought Lynchburg over Emory 3-0 was one of the more impressive 1st round showings and iirc Lynchburg performed relatively well against W&L.
Looks to me like Dickinson capitalized and Lynchburg didn't. Dickinson had 3 shots, put all 3 on goal, and scored twice. Lynchburg took 8 shots, put 3 on goal, and didn't get any through. I suspect the scoreline flatters Dickinson at least a bit. But I didn't watch the game.
Lynchburg did have 10 corners to Dickinson's 1. That's probably as good an indicator as any of who was more offensive.
Thanks @jknezek...and btw, I don't think Dickinson should be hosting...esp if the only issue was one flight for W&L. Sending Amherst to Wisconsin makes total sense...and not that this was a consideration at all but I suspect most of us think the harm to Amherst is minimal.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2024, 10:46:21 AMThanks @jknezek...and btw, I don't think Dickinson should be hosting...esp if the only issue was one flight for W&L. Sending Amherst to Wisconsin makes total sense...and not that this was a consideration at all but I suspect most of us think the harm to Amherst is minimal.
I mostly agree. Though I don't think it's a coincidence that Bowdoin got run off the field in Texas. First off, I agree Trinity is very good, but also D3 travel is hard for teams not used to it. Amherst may struggle more than expected, especially if they face UW EC in the Elite 8. Though I suspect Amherst has been to the Final 4 enough to have a better handle on the experience than Bowdoin would, or maybe even Middlebury, since they haven't been out of New England in a few years. For teams that don't need to travel, it can be a shock.
I suspect Trinity's island status helps them at least a bit in that regard. Similarly, W&L's mediocre road trip to Sewanee and Covenant at least keeps the experience of long bus trips and a couple nights in a hotel fresh.
Quote from: jknezek on November 19, 2024, 10:31:11 AMQuote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2024, 10:26:28 AMAnybody have any commentary on Dickinson winning 2-0 over Lynchburg? A mild surprise for me...not necessarily that Dickinson advanced but more the scoreline. A close 2-0 or not so much? I thought Lynchburg over Emory 3-0 was one of the more impressive 1st round showings and iirc Lynchburg performed relatively well against W&L.
Looks to me like Dickinson capitalized and Lynchburg didn't. Dickinson had 3 shots, put all 3 on goal, and scored twice. Lynchburg took 8 shots, put 3 on goal, and didn't get any through. I suspect the scoreline flatters Dickinson at least a bit. But I didn't watch the game.
Lynchburg did have 10 corners to Dickinson's 1. That's probably as good an indicator as any of who was more offensive.
Over the season, Dickinson has had much better offense in that they can score goals with two guys doing a lot damage. Saul Iwowo (15 goals/7 assists with 1 and an assist v. Lynchburg) and Ethan Jorden (13 g/8 a). Problem is that Dickinson has struggled in the midfield and defense. Advice would be score early on them and then try to shut them down. They may score a lot because of their effective scorers who take quality shots, but they are vulnerable.
IMO when playing at Dickinson on their grass, a lot of goals will be scored in the middle of the box due the inconsistent surface. Over the years. It seems like a lot of goals get scored that way in Carlisle. Popcorn. So, as always, it is very important to not sit back, but to keep the offensive pressure up.
@jknezek, your take that travel can definitely impact performance I think supports the idea that, from at least a perennial perspective, Trinity gets the short end of the stick. And surely you're not going to count the fact that Trinity has to travel more than most anyway as a mitigating factor more so than a double jeopardy. That program is used to the CC trip to CO, and not the same as traveling to NE where most would agree the top NESCACs have substantial home field advantages.
Once again, I'm in this weird parochial position where Hopkins beat a Centennial foe twice (regular season and conf tournament), yet that team advances further in Nov Madness than the Jays.
Last year, Hop beat Wash in Chestertown 2-0 both times and the Shorepeople made their epic run to the F4. This year, Hop beat the Red Devils rather convincingly at home by 4-2 and 3-0 scorelines. (For the record, Dickinson thumped Hop at home 4-2 last year.)
So, it's hard for me to see them getting past either Williams or W&L. Heck, I can see them struggling to get past the next round. I thought their forwards were decent, but they didn't really blow me away with their speed or ball handling.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2024, 10:46:21 AMThanks @jknezek...and btw, I don't think Dickinson should be hosting...esp if the only issue was one flight for W&L. Sending Amherst to Wisconsin makes total sense...and not that this was a consideration at all but I suspect most of us think the harm to Amherst is minimal.
Maybe so, but Dickinson is definitely more centrally located. Money is always an issue.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2024, 11:26:41 AM@jknezek, your take that travel can definitely impact performance I think supports the idea that, from at least a perennial perspective, Trinity gets the short end of the stick. And surely you're not going to count the fact that Trinity has to travel more than most anyway as a mitigating factor more so than a double jeopardy. That program is used to the CC trip to CO, and not the same as traveling to NE where most would agree the top NESCACs have substantial home field advantages.
I do think Trinity are more prepared for the difficulties of travel than a NESCAC team who hardly ever travels. Experience does help mitigate the effects. But I do believe being at home is a significant advantage and travelling is tough. I also think the committee erred setting home/away to irrelevant, but that's a different discussion.
And I never said the island teams don't get the short end of the stick. They do. Regularly. I just don't think Trinity got it this year. I think they hosted the first weekend, as they should have, and they are rightfully a 2 seed in a 2nd weekend pod and should travel. Travelling to New England isn't much different than Maryland or Central PA. And I doubt anyone saw the Wisconsin pod happening, but I really don't think that's any better from a travel perspective.
If Trinity were the top seed in the pod, and they got sent somewhere like Amherst did, I'd say that's a screw job. And I don't doubt it's happened to Trinity as an an island team before and will happen again. That's the money reality. But this year, in this seeding? I think their pod is in the proper place.
It seems like money is an issue when folks wanna make money an issue. I thought this year was supposed to be different with NPI carrying a lot of weight (as jknezek has detailed effectively) and the exception being a situation like we have with Wisconsin and Amherst. If Trinity and CMS can go to Vermont, then certainly W&L can go to Williams.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 19, 2024, 11:28:05 AMOnce again, I'm in this weird parochial position where Hopkins beat a Centennial foe twice (regular season and conf tournament), yet that team advances further in Nov Madness than the Jays.
Last year, Hop beat Wash in Chestertown 2-0 both times and the Shorepeople made their epic run to the F4. This year, Hop beat the Red Devils rather convincingly at home by 4-2 and 3-0 scorelines. (For the record, Dickinson thumped Hop at home 4-2 last year.)
So, it's hard for me to see them getting past either Williams or W&L. Heck, I can see them struggling to get past the next round. I thought their forwards were decent, but they didn't really blow me away with their speed or ball handling.
True that, however, are you factoring location, location, location?? Notice JHU lost in Carlisle, but dominated in Bmore? Difference could be the field. Hop's style is best on pool tables, but, once you get on a meadow, things can definitely change and did for the last two years. Would you like to be a high scoring team in Carlisle or a defensive/possession type team? Can they get by either W&L or Williams in Bmore?? Maybe not, but Carlisle might play a part. IMO, though maybe not a huge difference, surfaces can play a factor.
Quote from: jknezek on November 19, 2024, 11:33:34 AMQuote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2024, 11:26:41 AM@jknezek, your take that travel can definitely impact performance I think supports the idea that, from at least a perennial perspective, Trinity gets the short end of the stick. And surely you're not going to count the fact that Trinity has to travel more than most anyway as a mitigating factor more so than a double jeopardy. That program is used to the CC trip to CO, and not the same as traveling to NE where most would agree the top NESCACs have substantial home field advantages.
I do think Trinity are more prepared for the difficulties of travel than a NESCAC team who hardly ever travels. Experience does help mitigate the effects. But I do believe being at home is a significant advantage and travelling is tough. I also think the committee erred setting home/away to irrelevant, but that's a different discussion.
And I never said the island teams don't get the short end of the stick. They do. Regularly. I just don't think Trinity got it this year. I think they hosted the first weekend, as they should have, and they are rightfully a 2 seed in a 2nd weekend pod and should travel. Travelling to New England isn't much different than Maryland or Central PA. And I doubt anyone saw the Wisconsin pod happening, but I really don't think that's any better from a travel perspective.
If Trinity were the top seed in the pod, and they got sent somewhere like Amherst did, I'd say that's a screw job. And I don't doubt it's happened to Trinity as an an island team before and will happen again. That's the money reality. But this year, in this seeding? I think their pod is in the proper place.
Sorry, as a neutral on this one, it's hard to read your take as not suggesting that since Trinity already has to suffer with travel that even more travel should be fine. We hear how the NESCAC rosters are built on a very national and even international recruitment and I reckon NESCACs could travel without a ton of hardship. It is interesting how some of us can see things so differently, which again, doesn't mean I disagree with your NPI argument. Like I don't think Amherst got screwed at all. In fact, if we did an ESPNesque prediction model I would guess Amherst now has the highest likelihood of all remaining teams to reach the F4.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2024, 11:36:00 AMIt seems like money is an issue when folks wanna make money an issue. I thought this year was supposed to be different with NPI carrying a lot of weight (as jknezek has detailed effectively) and the exception being a situation like we have with Wisconsin and Amherst. If Trinity and CMS can go there Vermont, then certainly W&L can go to Williams.
You'd have thought. I certainly thought W&L was headed to Williams and was very surprised when Carlyle popped up on the W&L schedule page.
Then again, W&L's women's team, which I think was the 3 seed overall, is going to Scranton (9) for their second weekend. They are the top NPI in a pod with Scranton, Trinity (22) and William Smith (16). I really can't figure that one out, as William Smith is Hobart, and when W&L's football team went to Hobart for an NCAA game, it was a bus trip. Trinity is a flight either way.
So I'm real confused on why the W&L women aren't at home. Maybe it had something to do with hosting priority and W&L put in to host for both teams and the men had the second weekend, so even though they didn't get it, it forced the women to the road? Don't know how that works.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2024, 11:42:38 AMSorry, as a neutral on this one, it's hard to read your take as not suggesting that since Trinity already has to suffer with travel that even more travel should be fine. We hear how the NESCAC rosters are built on a very national and even international recruitment and I reckon NESCACs could travel without a ton of hardship. It is interesting how some of us can see things so differently, which again, doesn't mean I disagree with your NPI argument. Like I don't think Amherst got screwed at all. In fact, if we did an ESPNesque prediction model I would guess Amherst now has the highest likelihood of all remaining teams to reach the F4.
It's not "fine". I've said travel is hard. I simply state that they are more prepared to handle the difficulties of travel, since they regularly have that experience, than teams that don't travel, like NESCAC schools which stay in a fairly small silo all season. You are looking at this like an absolute value, travel is either good or bad. From that perspective I agree it's bad. I'd rather be home before games. But I'm looking at it as a team that has experience travelling is better able to handle it than teams that don't have that experience. It's relative. That's the difference.
Either way, as I've said repeatedly but you seem to ignore, travel is hard and an additional barrier to winning.
I think the logic that teams that regularly get on planes, and all of the logistical details and stress that goes with that, are going to be less bothered by a trip in November is pretty sound.
It's not that NESCAC players aren't used to planes, its that traveling in a pack like that is a pain in the ass and (potentially) distracting.
Lol.
Huge assumption that Trinity is better equipped to travel since they go to CC every other year or once a year or whatever (and I guess because they are used to getting sent to the East Coast) for the tournament. Teams can decide to travel, and they do. But of course NESCACs don't travel because...you know, don't play the first weekend, only 15 games, very serious academics, etc, etc. Tufts and Williams both flew to Ohio and never heard a peep about that impacting their performance.
NESCAC kids are pretty sophisticated in general and I suspect they actually love traveling.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 19, 2024, 11:56:39 AMI think the logic that teams that regularly get on planes, and all of the logistical details and stress that goes with that, are going to be less bothered by a trip in November is pretty sound.
It's not that NESCAC players aren't used to planes, its that traveling in a pack like that is a pain in the ass and (potentially) distracting.
Outside of tournaments, how often does Trinity actually travel...and I mean travel that isn't self-selected like an early season trip to do something like a CNU/MW combo or Hop/F&M? Some coaches argue that travel helps a team with bonding and actually decreasing distractions.
To fend off the obstinence (or worse) critique, if the conclusion is that travel is hard and a factor but not necessarily unfair (or unfair in relation to other overriding factors) then we're not really in disagreement.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2024, 11:36:00 AMIt seems like money is an issue when folks wanna make money an issue. I thought this year was supposed to be different with NPI carrying a lot of weight (as jknezek has detailed effectively) and the exception being a situation like we have with Wisconsin and Amherst. If Trinity and CMS can go there Vermont, then certainly W&L can go to Williams.
It's always going to be an issue of money in a nonrevenue sport. The NCAAs already sent three teams on short notice to Colorado which was a required along with one team to Wisconsin because it had to. Also a team from Maine to Texas. Also 4 teams are going to Vegas which was not always the case before when it was Salem, VA recently. Vegas is going to look like a club game with only parents (if they can afford) with tumbleweed blowing around the stands. Last year, the NCAAs did not have to pay for W&L and WC to fly.
As to Williams hosting, could you imagine if you went to your boss and said - hey I'm not going to save money (by putting W&L on plane) even though we are not obligated. Especially for a sport nobody really cares about since it does not make money? Down side for not spending this money is that some people on a message board and a very small, though prominent, college with no big revenue teams which also is part of the best D3 conference in the land are going get heartburn.
Also you could blame it on Tufts, it definitely spit the bit. Otherwise Williams would probably be going to Medford. You could say that NPI did play a factor till the No. 2 team blew it. However, maybe the NCAAs would have still baulked at sending W&L on plane?? Maybe it was inevitable that Williams (and Tufts) was going to Carlisle??
Or you could blame Hop for losing or W&L for winning?? If Hop had won, then issued resolved, it would be at Williams. Hop it is your fault!!! Hahahaha :) :( Score more goals!!
Boiling it all down - money and location. Location seems to win out this time and probably will in the future.
Conspiratorially, it really is about NESCAC v. Cent. Conf. Hop was flexing when it lost to make NESCAC have to travel. That is definitely is some INFOWARS stuff.
Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 19, 2024, 12:15:29 PMAlso 4 teams are going to Vegas which was not always the case before when it was Salem, VA recently. Vegas is going to look like a club game with only parents (if they can afford) with tumbleweed blowing around the stands. Last year, the NCAAs did not have to pay for W&L and WC to fly.
This. I drove about 10 hours each way last year to see W&L play. No way I'm flying to Vegas if they make it. All the W&L students at the game had the stands rocking last year. That isn't happening this year. I hate when the NCAA does stuff like this. While there is never a guarantee you will get a local team, you at least have to put the game somewhere local to D3. Vegas is... nothing. I can only assume the stadium or tourism board put up money for this travesty. I have no problem moving it around the country, but it has to be near some D3 schools at least. Southern California, Colorado, Texas, Oregon, there are places near island teams that still make 1000x more sense than Las Vegas.
Good points, PN, and I'll admit that I hadn't really looked at Trinity's schedule. Which is... Kind of fascinating.
They played a somewhat astounding 14(!) games at home this season.
Away:
Mary Hardin-Baylor - Belton, TX (2.5 hours, give or take a few minutes)
Concordia - Austin (1.5 hours)
U of Dallas - Irving (4.5 hours - 1+ hour flight)
Austin C - Sherman, TX (5.5 hours - 1+ flight)
St. Thomas - Houston (3 hours - 1- flight)
Col Coll - The Springs (2 hour flight)
2 more games in Houston for the conf. tournament
So, I have no idea if those games in Irving, Sherman or Houston were on the bus or on the plane. But your overall point stands, it's not like these guys are getting on a plane every other weekend.
This is getting too convoluted for even me... especially since I really don't care..but I do enjoy analyzing the arguments and when things matter and when they don't. Why aren't MW and Conn going to Ohio? Is it because Conn would have to fly? Really?
If we're talking just travel, then I'd argue that Denison and Kenyon got fairly unfairly treated (trying to avoid 'screwed'). Assuming they are indeed traveling by bus, that's a brutal trip...under the 500 miles standard but not by a ton. Long drive for Conn as well.
Quote from: jknezek on November 19, 2024, 12:21:40 PMQuote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 19, 2024, 12:15:29 PMAlso 4 teams are going to Vegas which was not always the case before when it was Salem, VA recently. Vegas is going to look like a club game with only parents (if they can afford) with tumbleweed blowing around the stands. Last year, the NCAAs did not have to pay for W&L and WC to fly.
This. I drove about 10 hours each way last year to see W&L play. No way I'm flying to Vegas if they make it. All the W&L students at the game had the stands rocking last year. That isn't happening this year. I hate when the NCAA does stuff like this. While there is never a guarantee you will get a local team, you at least have to put the game somewhere local to D3. Vegas is... nothing. I can only assume the stadium or tourism board put up money for this travesty. I have no problem moving it around the country, but it has to be near some D3 schools at least. Southern California, Colorado, Texas, Oregon, there are places near island teams that still make 1000x more sense than Las Vegas.
I am a D1 college hockey nerd and I hate the way they do almost all of their venue selections. They'll put 2 or even 3 of the opening weekend pods in the Northeast, which inevitably puts a 3 or 4 seed with an "in reality" home game they don't deserve.
And more to your point, they'll throw a Frozen Four in some place like Tampa, which is near absolutely ZERO D1 hockey programs ensuring often lightly attended final games. Drives most college hockey fans a little nuts.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2024, 12:29:19 PMThis is getting too convoluted for even me... especially since I really don't care..but I do enjoy analyzing the arguments and when things matter and when they don't. Why aren't MW and Conn going to Ohio? Is it because Conn would have to fly? Really?
If we're talking just travel, then I'd argue that Denison and Kenyon got fairly unfairly treated (trying to avoid 'screwed'). Assuming they are indeed traveling by bus, that's a brutal trip...under the 500 miles standard but not by a ton. Long drive for Conn as well.
I'm not procrastinating... YOU'RE procrastinating.
Quote from: jknezek on November 19, 2024, 12:21:40 PMQuote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 19, 2024, 12:15:29 PMAlso 4 teams are going to Vegas which was not always the case before when it was Salem, VA recently. Vegas is going to look like a club game with only parents (if they can afford) with tumbleweed blowing around the stands. Last year, the NCAAs did not have to pay for W&L and WC to fly.
This. I drove about 10 hours each way last year to see W&L play. No way I'm flying to Vegas if they make it. All the W&L students at the game had the stands rocking last year. That isn't happening this year. I hate when the NCAA does stuff like this. While there is never a guarantee you will get a local team, you at least have to put the game somewhere local to D3. Vegas is... nothing. I can only assume the stadium or tourism board put up money for this travesty. I have no problem moving it around the country, but it has to be near some D3 schools at least. Southern California, Colorado, Texas, Oregon, there are places near island teams that still make 1000x more sense than Las Vegas.
If they like Vegas so much, maybe next time in Lex Vegas!! Some will get the reference if they know W&L.
Yeah, just really, really odd/sad. Cary NC is a great spot as well and reachable. So, so many better options. How about Maryland Soccerplex in Boyds, MD where the NWSL used to play. Great field and smaller stands that make it more intense of a game, reasonably reachable for most D3 teams with major airports and places to stay. So, so many better choices.
Also, even considering parents and families, some can afford to book a last minute flight/trip to Vegas, but, I'm guessing that some might be having a hard time just paying for college. At least where D3 is centered, parents could more easily travel to watch their kids play something they have already paid a lot of money for them to participate.
Hey, based on Tyson v. Paul, at the least the parents won't have to worry about watching their kids on the internet ....
Son played all over the country for his club. We very rarely ever got to see him in person on these trips as he was older and could travel on his own. His team played in the Dallas Cup a couple of times. Played at FC Dallas' field. Cavernous stadium where you could hear the players think or at least that is what it felt like watching it on the internet. Kind of like watching an Oakland A's/White Sox game.
Fredericksburg is 7+ to 8 hours, presuming no significant traffic issues, for all three visitors. How does that toll compare to a flight? Or is it more of a time zone thing?
Can a school choose to fly out of pocket? Or do the rules prevent teams from traveling as they choose?
Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 19, 2024, 12:39:06 PMCary NC is a great spot as well and reachable. So, so many better options. How about Maryland Soccerplex in Boyds, MD where the NWSL used to play.
Don't tease me. The D1 women and men have WakeMed in Cary booked for the next 4 years. The women's college cup coincides with the D3 men's final. But yea there are plenty of suitable spots in the Mid/South Atlantic or whatever you want to call us. Boyds, Richmond, Greensboro, Rock Hill and Charleston, SC all have club tournament hosting experience. Obviously the further south you go the better the weather.
I'm confident no one will be complaining about the travel if their team happens to go to Las Vegas. I get everything else, but you go where the games are.
Ugh I just read 3 pages of wine and cheese. Agree with the Wallaby!
Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 19, 2024, 12:39:06 PMKind of like watching an Oakland A's/White Sox game.
Now I'm catching strays on a D3 soccer board. Isn't it enough that we set records for futility this summer.
Let us suffer in peace.
Saturday is a long ways away.
Do folks who check the board for new posts every 10 minutes prefer to keep refreshing with no posts to read or finding new posts even if they are tedious nonsense from old-timers?
I think the 2nd round is the best round of the tournament in terms of a decent number of people still heavily invested and anticipating a round with a large amount of tasty matchups.
Imo the Sweet 16 round is next best. By the time we hit the Elite 8 most of us already are counting the days for the start of next season.
Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 19, 2024, 12:15:29 PMAlso 4 teams are going to Vegas which was not always the case before when it was Salem, VA recently. Vegas is going to look like a club game with only parents (if they can afford) with tumbleweed blowing around the stands. Last year, the NCAAs did not have to pay for W&L and WC to fly.
I'm all for bringing the D3 Final Four to new locations (if the NCAA can afford it). I also think playing at home in the tournament is a big advantage. Before the Final Four was played at neutral sites, it probably helped UC San Diego win the national championship in 1991 when UCSD was the host and playing TCNJ, but UCSD also won in 1988 against RIT when it was at RIT, and UCSD also won it in 1993 against Williams playing at Williams. Trinity also won it in 2003 against Drew playing at Drew. So, travel can be a pain and hosting can be an advantage, but teams overcome those issues.
Having said that, Las Vegas is kind of out there. Maybe it makes sense from a cheap, frequent, flights and hotel deals perspective, but from a fan's perspective it doesn't make a lot of sense unless you are thinking about other entertainment options before or after the games. Peter Johann Field at UNLV is a decent grass playing surface I guess, but it's been a long time since it was considered a top field in the west. It's kind of a dumpy little place to watch a game though. It's nice that they provide some shade, but it's basically a field-level view.
This was the best picture I could find online to give you a sense of the view from the stands. As you can see, the stands aren't really big enough for any tumbleweed to come flying through!
https://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/peter-johann-memorial-field-las-vegas?select=HqlzzafpWo7b56nXtcSxKw
Gonna leave this here with no comment other than to say where one gets one's news apparently does matter...
https://ephsports.williams.edu/news/2024/11/17/mens-soccer-spectacular-overtime-goal-tough-defense-see-williams-beat-messiah-1-0-and-move-on-to-the-round-of-16-of-the-ncaa-national-tournament.aspx
I'm thinking a Wisc or NESCAC team would prefer Vegas over Roanoke. They gotta get on a plane either way so you may as well be warmer. Yeah it wont be home game for one of the Virginia teams but I know most of the players will be pumped to go to Vegas and they are the ones playing the game not the wine & cheese crowd.
There's a bidding process for championship sites and my guess is the Las Vegas organizing committee made the NCAA a deal it couldn't refuse financially - either that or the other bids were either poor or few were submitted (or both).
A similar situation has taken place in American football where once again this year's championship will be hosted in the Houston area, despite very poor attendance in the past when a Texas school was not involved (1,362 in 2019, the lowest in the Stagg Bowl's 50-year history). This time the game will be in Houston proper rather than a suburb which may juice attendance slightly if none of the four Texas schools in this year's playoff make it to the final.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2024, 02:22:22 PMSaturday is a long ways away.
Do folks who check the board for new posts every 10 minutes prefer to keep refreshing with no posts to read or finding new posts even if they are tedious nonsense from old-timers?
I think the 2nd round is the best round of the tournament in terms of a decent number of people still heavily invested and anticipating a round with a large amount of tasty matchups.
Imo the Sweet 16 round is next best. By the time we hit the Elite 8 most of us already are counting the days for the start of next season.
Tedious Old-Timers is a great name for a Phish cover band.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2024, 02:56:31 PMGonna leave this here with no comment other than to say where one gets one's news apparently does matter...
https://ephsports.williams.edu/news/2024/11/17/mens-soccer-spectacular-overtime-goal-tough-defense-see-williams-beat-messiah-1-0-and-move-on-to-the-round-of-16-of-the-ncaa-national-tournament.aspx
And here comes another 3 pages of whine and cheese!
PN, you were on track to win the class clown superlative. Now you are the front runner for the Instigator!
"that effort would pay off only a minute into the second portion of extra time when Lorcan Mitchell and Kellan Grace combined defensively to dispossess a Messiah midfielder"
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2024, 02:56:31 PMGonna leave this here with no comment other than to say where one gets one's news apparently does matter...
https://ephsports.williams.edu/news/2024/11/17/mens-soccer-spectacular-overtime-goal-tough-defense-see-williams-beat-messiah-1-0-and-move-on-to-the-round-of-16-of-the-ncaa-national-tournament.aspx
actually just watched the video for the first time - I think the finger wagging was what convinced the ref it was not a foul ;)
First time seeing the entire play. Wowzers. How in the world did he miss that call? Too close to the play??
Quote from: Newenglander on November 19, 2024, 03:07:26 PMQuote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2024, 02:56:31 PMGonna leave this here with no comment other than to say where one gets one's news apparently does matter...
https://ephsports.williams.edu/news/2024/11/17/mens-soccer-spectacular-overtime-goal-tough-defense-see-williams-beat-messiah-1-0-and-move-on-to-the-round-of-16-of-the-ncaa-national-tournament.aspx
actually just watched the video for the first time - I think the finger wagging was what convinced the ref it was not a foul ;)
And that should have been the tell, if one was needed which it wasn't, that it was a foul...esp with ref looking right at the play and being reportedly highly experienced. I wonder what he was thinking 10 seconds later.
Quote from: Freddyfud on November 19, 2024, 03:04:58 PMQuote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2024, 02:56:31 PMGonna leave this here with no comment other than to say where one gets one's news apparently does matter...
https://ephsports.williams.edu/news/2024/11/17/mens-soccer-spectacular-overtime-goal-tough-defense-see-williams-beat-messiah-1-0-and-move-on-to-the-round-of-16-of-the-ncaa-national-tournament.aspx
And here comes another 3 pages of whine and cheese!
PN, you were on track to win the class clown superlative. Now you are the front runner for the Instigator!
Freddy, you should know by now...
I love all of the awards...
I'm turning 65 in a few days and I feel like I'm 12 (and that's on a good day).
Btw, the big kid from West Springfield who committed the non-call foul happens to be Williams' leading scorer with 8 goals and 2 assists...also a frosh who played all 19 games with no starts.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2024, 03:12:28 PMQuote from: Newenglander on November 19, 2024, 03:07:26 PMQuote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2024, 02:56:31 PMGonna leave this here with no comment other than to say where one gets one's news apparently does matter...
https://ephsports.williams.edu/news/2024/11/17/mens-soccer-spectacular-overtime-goal-tough-defense-see-williams-beat-messiah-1-0-and-move-on-to-the-round-of-16-of-the-ncaa-national-tournament.aspx
actually just watched the video for the first time - I think the finger wagging was what convinced the ref it was not a foul ;)
And that should have been the tell, if one was needed which it wasn't, that it was a foul...esp with ref looking right at the play and being reportedly highly experienced. I wonder what he was thinking 10 seconds later.
I used to tell my teammates - and then my son - as soon as you throw both arms up as if you didn't cause a foul you are all but admitting it...........
Quote from: eaglesoccerdad on November 19, 2024, 03:06:51 PM"that effort would pay off only a minute into the second portion of extra time when Lorcan Mitchell and Kellan Grace combined defensively to dispossess a Messiah midfielder"
I'm going to swallow my pride and tip my cap to Falconer here. Mitchell deserved to get his 3rd assist of the season. And as a fan for the opposing team I would still be out of my mind 2 days later. Not sure why the kid who actually was awarded an assist was credited with the "combined defensively to dispossess" portion of the programme (nod to the Cat from down under).
That article, man... Someone needs an editor. Sheesh.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2024, 02:22:22 PMDo folks who check the board for new posts every 10 minutes prefer to keep refreshing with no posts to read or finding new posts even if they are tedious nonsense from old-timers?
Definitely prefer the tedious nonsense from old timers over no new posts!!
Though to be fair, I don't find anyone's post to be tedious or nonsensical. Keep it up!
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 19, 2024, 03:31:46 PMThat article, man... Someone needs an editor. Sheesh.
Yep..a whole paragraph signed by a notary on the 100% call for a PK for Williams...and then the most famous call never made being termed a solid defensive combo effort to dispossess leading to the GW.
For the referees out there, could the ref, upon realizing the "dispossessed" player was not moving, have called the play back 5 seconds later before the goal was scored? I didn't see whether the Messiah player got up or not, but the ref had his eyes on the play and him, and if nothing else might have halted play for an injury check. Or no?
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2024, 03:37:29 PMQuote from: Hopkins92 on November 19, 2024, 03:31:46 PMThat article, man... Someone needs an editor. Sheesh.
Yep..a whole paragraph signed by a notary on the 100% call for a PK for Williams...and then the most famous call never made being termed a solid defensive combo effort to dispossess leading to the GW.
I mean, as a person that edits a lot of stuff, I'm more annoyed by the verbosity and meandering of the article.
For those curious, and I hope this isn't overblown, the Messiah recap has absolutely no mention of the game ending play in terms of an egregious missed call.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 19, 2024, 03:45:03 PMQuote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2024, 03:37:29 PMQuote from: Hopkins92 on November 19, 2024, 03:31:46 PMThat article, man... Someone needs an editor. Sheesh.
Yep..a whole paragraph signed by a notary on the 100% call for a PK for Williams...and then the most famous call never made being termed a solid defensive combo effort to dispossess leading to the GW.
I mean, as a person that edits a lot of stuff, I'm more annoyed by the verbosity and meandering of the article.
I figured that's what you meant but I wanted to seize on the opportunity to make sure folks didn't skip over and miss the PK shout paragraph.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2024, 02:56:31 PMGonna leave this here with no comment other than to say where one gets one's news apparently does matter...
https://ephsports.williams.edu/news/2024/11/17/mens-soccer-spectacular-overtime-goal-tough-defense-see-williams-beat-messiah-1-0-and-move-on-to-the-round-of-16-of-the-ncaa-national-tournament.aspx
Seems like a student wrote the first draft and then ran it through ChatGPT with the instructions to "embellish."
I can't access the link, I get the message below ;D
(https://www.hostinger.com/tutorials/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/01/deceptive-site-ahead-warning.webp)
Consider yourself fortunate.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 19, 2024, 03:31:46 PMThat article, man... Someone needs an editor. Sheesh.
Favorite ¶ not -
The Williams fans, 300+ in number, had shifted over as a pack to William's attacking half before the start of the second overtime period. When Kirkman scored the
game-winning, walk-off goal, he fell to the ground at the corner flag in celebration and was soon
pilled on by fans and teammates alike. It was an incredible moment enjoyed by the entire Williams community, not just the players and coaching staff of Williams Men's Soccer.
Wow. "game-winning, walk-off goal" and just odd that the goal scorer was "pilled" though the video did not show anyone pilled.
I'm guessing that this person never had an editor or the editor was worse??? However, the reporter may be Bob Costas' son/grandson/third cousin which would explain everything.
I just finished editing an 85 page, very technical and jargon-filled document, so I'm in this mode right now. This "lede*" or opening paragraph breaks almost every Journalism 101 rule in the book.
Quotet was a gritty, battle for the badge match today between the Messiah University Falcons (14-6-2) and the Williams College Ephs (12-4-3). There was never a clear front-runner, as both teams had their fair share of opportunities, coming from long passes and combination play matched with an equal if not greater set of brilliant defensive actions and recoveries that saw the 90 end 0-0 and the match go to over time. As soon as the overtime whistle was blown, both sides battled like their life depended on it, because it did, and yet neither team distinguished themselves as deserving to win. Soccer, however, is a game of moments, and a brilliant, beautiful moment at the start of the second overtime period would determine the winner of the match. In the 101st minute, sophomore Kellan Grace played an over the top pass into the run of junior Henry Kirkman. Kirkman, with a deft touch, created enough space for a shot that he tucked under the dive of Messiah goalkeeper Adam Carter into the back of the net, ending the game that seemed like it would never end and sending Williams into the round of the 16 of the NCAA Tournament.
First off, the basic rule of journalism being trampled here is that a news article has what is called an inverted pyramid, in which the reporter provides the most important information in the opening paragraph. Typically, this includes the 5 Ws and an H.
Secondly, while there is some leeway, this opening paragraph is 199 words long. Typical articles usually come in around 800 words, if given the room. I know this isn't print, but the same "hold the reader's interest" rule is at play. Two hundred words for a lead is ridiculous.
And my last bit of criticism is really more of a question: What in the Hell is a "badge match"???
Oh, wait, actually, the reporter states that both teams fought like their lives depended on it "because it did." No, person writing this article, their lives were not on the line. Saying "because it did" is a really odd choice in an already bonkers article.
I'm not going to criticize calling the goal "spectacular" in the headline because a) that's pretty subjective and I'm sure to Eph Nation it was and b) as reporters always remind critical readers, they often don't have anything to do with writing the headline. (though in this instance, the writer almost certainly entered that headline.)
* - lede is a very old school way to say "lead"... I am old and the folks who taught me to write professionally were way older than me.
Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 19, 2024, 04:59:18 PMQuote from: Hopkins92 on November 19, 2024, 03:31:46 PMThat article, man... Someone needs an editor. Sheesh.
Favorite ¶ not -
The Williams fans, 300+ in number, had shifted over as a pack to William's attacking half before the start of the second overtime period. When Kirkman scored the game-winning, walk-off goal, he fell to the ground at the corner flag in celebration and was soon pilled on by fans and teammates alike. It was an incredible moment enjoyed by the entire Williams community, not just the players and coaching staff of Williams Men's Soccer.
Wow. "game-winning, walk-off goal" and just odd that the goal scorer was "pilled" though the video did not show anyone pilled.
I'm guessing that this person never had an editor or the editor was worse??? However, the reporter may be Bob Costas' son/grandson/third cousin which would explain everything.
You don't know what was happening to someone's sweater in that pile!
I have a friend who referees at the college and pro level (he actually reffed the d3 semis a couple of years back), so I sent him the clip, and this was his response:
"I don't like where the clip starts because it doesn't give the full context to how that challenge is made. Did the messiah player make a bad touch before the contact? Was it a mis-hit pass before the contact? Does the Williams player play the ball with his right foot and change the direction of the ball (passing it to a teammate)? The clip cuts in too close to when contact occurs to really appreciate the movement of the ball before and after the challenge.
That being said, if we're getting hyper technical, I don't initially see a foul by White. It looks like it's a bad touch or a hospital ball that forces the blue player to go right, except the white player then has position on the blue player and doesn't make any clear fouling action. He shields the ball and possibly plays it with his right foot, and contact appears to be created by the blue player.
I could make an argument for a foul too. But this isn't a great clip for a clear answer based on timeframe and camera angles, so I'm comfortable trusting the referee's judgment.
Looking at it more and more there appears to be a rotational change after the white player's right foot is near the ball. I think he plays the ball."
Very unpersuasive. We all saw it with our own eyes.
Quote from: stlawus on November 19, 2024, 05:34:42 PMVery unpersuasive. We all saw it with our own eyes.
Sure, but "we all" aren't high-level referees. I'm not saying his word is gospel or anything, and I too thought it was a foul when I first saw it, but hearing another perspective never hurts.
Was there any comment about the Messiah player on the ground motionless? A bunch of folks observed the play live and a bunch of us have watched the video, both from the game and the clip, and the vast majority think it was clearly a foul. The defender never got close to the ball, and poor touch or not, he knocked the player to the ground (and not with a shoulder to shoulder challenge). And it is obvious that the play created a major advantage for Williams. This not a case that needs to be sent to a forensic lab to figure out what happened.
Quote from: EnmoreCat on November 19, 2024, 01:34:01 PMI'm confident no one will be complaining about the travel if their team happens to go to Las Vegas. I get everything else, but you go where the games are.
On the bitterly intense travel theme....NESCAC has won SIX out of the last NINE national titles, and as Enmorecat is well aware, that doesn't include two additional Finalist outcomes (and none were played in New England or the Northeast). Somehow they manage.
Wow, this is rivaling the Magic Loogie theory from Seinfeld now.
Not sure I would agree this is a good example but the reference to a possible poor first touch is interesting. Whenever a poor touch leads to a 50/50 and the first touch offender dives in he is almost always called for the foul. Almost like an unspoken rule of refereeing--as if the actual offense was the first touch. Often the opponents are face to face though unlike this example.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2024, 05:40:10 PMWas there any comment about the Messiah player on the ground motionless? A bunch of folks observed the play live and a bunch of us have watched the video, both from the game and the clip, and the vast majority think it was clearly a foul. The defender never got close to the ball, and poor touch or not, he knocked the player to the ground (and not with a shoulder to shoulder challenge). And it is obvious that the play created a major advantage for Williams. This not a case that needs to be sent to a forensic lab to figure out what happened.
Apologies for sharing! I should have known better than to disturb the echo chamber with a different, albeit qualified opinion.
https://youtube.com/shorts/5RwWHZTKJVw?si=1PRuRMGE9kZGmzUA
Here's the play with more run in. White plays the ball not off a touch but a pass by. He is in position to chase when he is wiped out from the side/back right side by the defender. There is no ball touch by the defender, he plays the man completely after the ball passes.
I question a "high level ref" who is looking at foot rotation and thinks white touches a ball that has zero deflection. Either it's a different clip or your high level ref went to a NESCAC school and is looking for a reason to justify the call.
Now I'm not saying the offensive player has possession, he doesn't, by design he's allowing the ball past to turn, but you aren't allowed to wipe him out without establishing position or challenging for the ball. The "foot rotation" is 100% because he wipes out the offensive player's planted leg.
The only way it's not a foul is if you consider this a 50/50 situation and they go shoulder to shoulder. I just don't see it. This is called a foul in almost every circumstance. That being said, it wasn't and the game went how it went and it's over.
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on November 19, 2024, 05:50:30 PMQuote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2024, 05:40:10 PMWas there any comment about the Messiah player on the ground motionless? A bunch of folks observed the play live and a bunch of us have watched the video, both from the game and the clip, and the vast majority think it was clearly a foul. The defender never got close to the ball, and poor touch or not, he knocked the player to the ground (and not with a shoulder to shoulder challenge). And it is obvious that the play created a major advantage for Williams. This not a case that needs to be sent to a forensic lab to figure out what happened.
Apologies for sharing! I should have known better than to disturb the echo chamber with a different, albeit qualified opinion.
Don't do that. Send him the full video. He says at the outset he didn't have sufficient data to make a clear judgment based on the limitations of the clip, and then he goes on to basically speculate as though he had a clear judgment. And at least on this issue, there's been no echo chamber. There's been a wide range of opinions, including with respect to how much weight should be given (or not) in terms of how much the play impacted the outcome.
The additional video is helpful. The Messiah player got trucked, plain and simple. Not unusual or close to a red imo and probably happens 10-15 times in most games. But it was a foul.
Not to change the subject, but to change the subject, since I did this during last year's NCAA tournament Sweet 16 match between Occidental and Amherst, I thought I would do it again for Claremont-Mudd-Scripps and Middlebury. For all the hardship a SCIAC team endures traveling across the country from Southern California to New England in November, there almost always are some familiar faces on the other bench when they arrive because so many SoCal boys go to New England and the Mid-Atlantic to play college soccer. This year is no exception:
CMS Sophomore MF Christopher Kim and Middlebury Sophomore D Owen Davis were teammates on Albion SC San Diego B04/05 MLS Next
CMS Freshman MF Heiko Schultz and Middlebury Freshman D JT Federman were teammates on LA Surf B05/06 MLS Next
Also, Middlebury's senior defenders Casey Lund and Luke Madden played at Beach FC and so did CMS freshman defender Ian Rodriguez, although they obviously did not overlap. Madden was back at Beach FC coaching at their camps this summer.
It's a big country and a global game, but a small community of top soccer players!
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2024, 05:58:27 PMQuote from: NEsoccerfan on November 19, 2024, 05:50:30 PMQuote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2024, 05:40:10 PMWas there any comment about the Messiah player on the ground motionless? A bunch of folks observed the play live and a bunch of us have watched the video, both from the game and the clip, and the vast majority think it was clearly a foul. The defender never got close to the ball, and poor touch or not, he knocked the player to the ground (and not with a shoulder to shoulder challenge). And it is obvious that the play created a major advantage for Williams. This not a case that needs to be sent to a forensic lab to figure out what happened.
Apologies for sharing! I should have known better than to disturb the echo chamber with a different, albeit qualified opinion.
Send him the full video.
"With the full video I have a foul, charging or tripping.
But this decision assumes the Williams player #21 does not poke the ball with his right foot to his teammate. If he plays the ball, the ball is obviously within playing distance and it becomes a fair challenge. It's not a push, it's not a hold, it's not anything else.
The referee has a significantly better angle and proximity to determine whether the ball was played. From the camera angle we have, it's impossible to tell with certainty."
Quote from: jknezek on November 19, 2024, 05:52:23 PMI question a "high level ref" who is looking at foot rotation and thinks white touches a ball that has zero deflection. Either it's a different clip or your high level ref went to a NESCAC school and is looking for a reason to justify the call.
I'd defer to a current "high-level ref" who is grading refs based on video evidence such as this on a daily basis over a "former ref" such as you. And since you are alleging some sort of bias, he has zero affiliation with the NESCAC. Also, he knows that ref and does not speak highly of him on a personal or professional level, so no bias there either. As for me, I vehemently root against the NESCAC every chance I get.
The fact of the matter is that he is more qualified to speak on the play than any of us since we all have access to the same information yet he has the training and expertise. Now, for those who were at the game, they have more information and can more credibly make an assessment than he can. But they are also arguably the most biased.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2024, 02:56:31 PMGonna leave this here with no comment other than to say where one gets one's news apparently does matter...
https://ephsports.williams.edu/news/2024/11/17/mens-soccer-spectacular-overtime-goal-tough-defense-see-williams-beat-messiah-1-0-and-move-on-to-the-round-of-16-of-the-ncaa-national-tournament.aspx
What about this is biased PN? Just read it through as a neutral fan who was in Williamstown for the game Sunday, and it seems pretty accurate to me. Obviously whoever the student reporter is painted everything in a positive light for the Ephs, but the Falcons definitely didn't dominate the game overall. They had more of the ball, but that's consistent in all of their games, and as we know, it certainly does not directly correlate to having the upper hand in a game.
The only thing I could imagine being biased is stating that two Williams players "combined defensively to dispossess" Messiah. But do we expect the write up to say it was a foul that the ref let go? Williams had the better chances in the game and was the more physically imposing team. Messiah definitely got unlucky with an offside call, but the ref missed a clear pen in the first half as well. Williams was exciting to watch and I can see them making another 2022-esque run this year. Helps that there are no other T-10 teams in their side of the bracket...
Quote from: jknezek on November 19, 2024, 11:44:23 AMQuote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2024, 11:36:00 AMIt seems like money is an issue when folks wanna make money an issue. I thought this year was supposed to be different with NPI carrying a lot of weight (as jknezek has detailed effectively) and the exception being a situation like we have with Wisconsin and Amherst. If Trinity and CMS can go there Vermont, then certainly W&L can go to Williams.
You'd have thought. I certainly thought W&L was headed to Williams and was very surprised when Carlyle popped up on the W&L schedule page.
Then again, W&L's women's team, which I think was the 3 seed overall, is going to Scranton (9) for their second weekend. They are the top NPI in a pod with Scranton, Trinity (22) and William Smith (16). I really can't figure that one out, as William Smith is Hobart, and when W&L's football team went to Hobart for an NCAA game, it was a bus trip. Trinity is a flight either way.
So I'm real confused on why the W&L women aren't at home. Maybe it had something to do with hosting priority and W&L put in to host for both teams and the men had the second weekend, so even though they didn't get it, it forced the women to the road? Don't know how that works.
W&L is hosting the field hockey national championship this weekend in Lexington.
So all of W&Ls teams are on the road ( women's soccer, men's soccer and volleyball) as Lexington will be at full capacity.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 19, 2024, 05:20:15 PMQuote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 19, 2024, 04:59:18 PMQuote from: Hopkins92 on November 19, 2024, 03:31:46 PMThat article, man... Someone needs an editor. Sheesh.
Favorite ¶ not -
The Williams fans, 300+ in number, had shifted over as a pack to William's attacking half before the start of the second overtime period. When Kirkman scored the game-winning, walk-off goal, he fell to the ground at the corner flag in celebration and was soon pilled on by fans and teammates alike. It was an incredible moment enjoyed by the entire Williams community, not just the players and coaching staff of Williams Men's Soccer.
Wow. "game-winning, walk-off goal" and just odd that the goal scorer was "pilled" though the video did not show anyone pilled.
I'm guessing that this person never had an editor or the editor was worse??? However, the reporter may be Bob Costas' son/grandson/third cousin which would explain everything.
You don't know what was happening to someone's sweater in that pile!
@Hopkins92, this gave me a good chuckle, I must admit. LOL
Quote from: skg2 on November 19, 2024, 07:06:14 PMQuote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2024, 02:56:31 PMGonna leave this here with no comment other than to say where one gets one's news apparently does matter...
https://ephsports.williams.edu/news/2024/11/17/mens-soccer-spectacular-overtime-goal-tough-defense-see-williams-beat-messiah-1-0-and-move-on-to-the-round-of-16-of-the-ncaa-national-tournament.aspx
What about this is biased PN? Just read it through as a neutral fan who was in Williamstown for the game Sunday, and it seems pretty accurate to me. Obviously whoever the student reporter is painted everything in a positive light for the Ephs, but the Falcons definitely didn't dominate the game overall. They had more of the ball, but that's consistent in all of their games, and as we know, it certainly does not directly correlate to having the upper hand in a game.
The only thing I could imagine being biased is stating that two Williams players "combined defensively to dispossess" Messiah. But do we expect the write up to say it was a foul that the ref let go? Williams had the better chances in the game and was the more physically imposing team. Messiah definitely got unlucky with an offside call, but the ref missed a clear pen in the first half as well. Williams was exciting to watch and I can see them making another 2022-esque run this year. Helps that there are no other T-10 teams in their side of the bracket...
Everyone's a neutral now...and I'm kidding.
Yeah, maybe I wasn't clear enough. I thought the recap actually was quite fair overall and paid respect to both teams and very openly stated that it was an extremely tight, hard-fought battle that could have gone either way. So no problems there. I also never said Messiah outplayed Williams. Imo they didn't. I thought Williams had a definite physical edge and also had far more offense and ball movement than they did 2 years ago at Messiah. But I also thought, partly because of a physical deficit, played admirably and played like they know they are Messiah and will always push to meet their own bar of excellence. That's why I said I was proud of how Messiah competed. They didn't deserve to win, didn't deserve to lose...but definitely could have won. I probably would have liked Williams in PKs but you never know...the pressure might have been more heavily on the home team. And that's where the non-call comes in...kind of spoils what was a really great game by both teams. As for the article, my only issue was the alternative reality narrative on the "dispossession" as you noted which the author could have just ignored, but then he or she didn't ignore the alleged missed PK call. And I'm not sure how he or she got two players dispossessing, when, if there had been a dispossession it would have been #21.
This will all pass as there will be missed calls on Saturday...and I'll probably be crying about one or two of the them...or justifying them.
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on November 19, 2024, 07:03:06 PMQuote from: jknezek on November 19, 2024, 05:52:23 PMI question a "high level ref" who is looking at foot rotation and thinks white touches a ball that has zero deflection. Either it's a different clip or your high level ref went to a NESCAC school and is looking for a reason to justify the call.
I'd defer to a current "high-level ref" who is grading refs based on video evidence such as this on a daily basis over a "former ref" such as you. And since you are alleging some sort of bias, he has zero affiliation with the NESCAC. Also, he knows that ref and does not speak highly of him on a personal or professional level, so no bias there either. As for me, I vehemently root against the NESCAC every chance I get.
The fact of the matter is that he is more qualified to speak on the play than any of us since we all have access to the same information yet he has the training and expertise. Now, for those who were at the game, they have more information and can more credibly make an assessment than he can. But they are also arguably the most biased.
Given that you said you thought it was a foul, and so many others did as well, I guess what is not clear to me now is what prompted you to refer the matter to the friend in the first place. Not that that would be a problem, but did you have some doubt? And I take from his second reply that indeed he believes it was a foul (since he then goes on to qualify in case there was his possible alternative explanation which I think we all know didn't transpire).
Quote from: Kuiper on November 19, 2024, 06:21:13 PMNot to change the subject, but to change the subject, since I did this during last year's NCAA tournament Sweet 16 match between Occidental and Amherst, I thought I would do it again for Claremont-Mudd-Scripps and Middlebury. For all the hardship a SCIAC team endures traveling across the country from Southern California to New England in November, there almost always are some familiar faces on the other bench when they arrive because so many SoCal boys go to New England and the Mid-Atlantic to play college soccer. This year is no exception:
CMS Sophomore MF Christopher Kim and Middlebury Sophomore D Owen Davis were teammates on Albion SC San Diego B04/05 MLS Next
CMS Freshman MF Heiko Schultz and Middlebury Freshman D JT Federman were teammates on LA Surf B05/06 MLS Next
Also, Middlebury's senior defenders Casey Lund and Luke Madden played at Beach FC and so did CMS freshman defender Ian Rodriguez, although they obviously did not overlap. Madden was back at Beach FC coaching at their camps this summer.
It's a big country and a global game, but a small community of top soccer players!
Kuiper you are like a wonderful piece of chocolate stuck in a sea of diarrhea.
Quote from: SKUD on November 19, 2024, 08:41:40 PMKuiper you are like a wonderful piece of chocolate stuck in a sea of diarrhea.
And from this point forward I will stop looking forward to Halloween. Thanks a lot SKUD.
Just perusing through the Buffalo State roster...they've got players from South Africa, Portugal, England, Wales, Italy...as for the rest of the players on their roster, if they aren't international they're from NY.
Stat leader, #10 Diego Rivera, is sitting pretty on 18 G, 8 A. He's had hat tricks against St. Aloysius and Oswego State.
Portuguese senior, #17 Manu Prieto, follows closely behind with 10 G, 17 A. Prieto had a hat trick vs Alfred and picked up a brace on 2 separate occasions. 4 assists vs Oswego State.
Quote from: Mr_November on November 20, 2024, 07:34:40 AMJust perusing through the Buffalo State roster...they've got players from South Africa, Portugal, England, Wales, Italy...as for the rest of the players on their roster, if they aren't international they're from NY.
Stat leader, #10 Diego Rivera, is sitting pretty on 18 G, 8 A. He's had hat tricks against St. Aloysius and Oswego State.
Portuguese senior, #17 Manu Prieto, follows closely behind with 10 G, 17 A. Prieto had a hat trick vs Alfred and picked up a brace on 2 separate occasions. 4 assists vs Oswego State.
And there's #40 Shae Wirt - Kansas kid - instrumental in goal vs. Tufts
Not sure which player it was on Buff State, but the first kick taker in the shootout did a Panenka down the middle
Quote from: Mr_November on November 20, 2024, 07:34:40 AMJust perusing through the Buffalo State roster...they've got players from South Africa, Portugal, England, Wales, Italy...as for the rest of the players on their roster, if they aren't international they're from NY.
Stat leader, #10 Diego Rivera, is sitting pretty on 18 G, 8 A. He's had hat tricks against St. Aloysius and Oswego State.
Portuguese senior, #17 Manu Prieto, follows closely behind with 10 G, 17 A. Prieto had a hat trick vs Alfred and picked up a brace on 2 separate occasions. 4 assists vs Oswego State.
I had watched the conference championship game where they lost 3-1. It could've been 5-1 as cortland hit 4 posts and had the run of play all game. I also felt their third goal was a poor call.
In the buff state goal he made that out of nothing. It was 1 on 3. He cut from toward the sideline into the 3 players and put it in inside corner from about 20 yds out. Crafty player who plays with a lot of confidence. Just needs his one chance like he did against tufts.
Their center back is also a super player too. Super composed on the ball and walks up the field when he wants to.
Quote from: Convict charlie on November 20, 2024, 08:50:24 AMQuote from: Mr_November on November 20, 2024, 07:34:40 AMJust perusing through the Buffalo State roster...they've got players from South Africa, Portugal, England, Wales, Italy...as for the rest of the players on their roster, if they aren't international they're from NY.
Stat leader, #10 Diego Rivera, is sitting pretty on 18 G, 8 A. He's had hat tricks against St. Aloysius and Oswego State.
Portuguese senior, #17 Manu Prieto, follows closely behind with 10 G, 17 A. Prieto had a hat trick vs Alfred and picked up a brace on 2 separate occasions. 4 assists vs Oswego State.
I had watched the conference championship game where they lost 3-1. It could've been 5-1 as cortland hit 4 posts and had the run of play all game. I also felt their third goal was a poor call.
In the buff state goal he made that out of nothing. It was 1 on 3. He cut from toward the sideline into the 3 players and put it in inside corner from about 20 yds out. Crafty player who plays with a lot of confidence. Just needs his one chance like he did against tufts.
Their center back is also a super player too. Super composed on the ball and walks up the field when he wants to.
The player who scored from 20 yards out - was this #10 Rivera or #17 Prieto? Or neither? Just curious.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2024, 08:17:44 PMQuote from: NEsoccerfan on November 19, 2024, 07:03:06 PMQuote from: jknezek on November 19, 2024, 05:52:23 PMI question a "high level ref" who is looking at foot rotation and thinks white touches a ball that has zero deflection. Either it's a different clip or your high level ref went to a NESCAC school and is looking for a reason to justify the call.
I'd defer to a current "high-level ref" who is grading refs based on video evidence such as this on a daily basis over a "former ref" such as you. And since you are alleging some sort of bias, he has zero affiliation with the NESCAC. Also, he knows that ref and does not speak highly of him on a personal or professional level, so no bias there either. As for me, I vehemently root against the NESCAC every chance I get.
The fact of the matter is that he is more qualified to speak on the play than any of us since we all have access to the same information yet he has the training and expertise. Now, for those who were at the game, they have more information and can more credibly make an assessment than he can. But they are also arguably the most biased.
Given that you said you thought it was a foul, and so many others did as well, I guess what is not clear to me now is what prompted you to refer the matter to the friend in the first place.
That's a rather silly question, so I'll answer it by asking you one as well. Have you ever in your 64 years felt confident about your layman's opinion on something, but still decided to sanity-check it with an expert?
Depending on when the Ohio teams are travelling they could run into some winter weather (6-12" of snow expected on Thursday) in the Alleghany Mountains on the ride
Yikes--hope all the traveling teams get out ahead of the weather and arrive safely at their host location. Are we expecting weather at the northern host schools--snow or just rain?
I goofed on the days when looking at the weather forecast. Things are actually better than I originally thought.
Eau-Claire shows Saturday being chilly, but mostly sunny. High of 39 degrees on Saturday. Sunday is cloudy but with a high of 42 degrees. Assuming folks travel on Friday, the weather is fine. Mostly cloudy but rain/snow is not in the forecast in Wisconsin.
Carlisle shows slightly annoying snow/rain mix in the morning changing to mostly rain in the afternoon on Friday. But Saturday is showing cloudy with a high of 52 and then Sunday is partly cloudy with a high of 52.
Middlebury shows Friday as partly cloudy, Sat there are scattered showers and a high of 44. Sunday is partly cloudy and high of 42.
Fredericksburg is showing by far the balmiest forecast. Cloudy on Friday with a high of 49, but then things brighten up with partly cloudy forecasts on both days and high of 59 on Sat and 60 on Sunday.
Quote from: Mr_November on November 20, 2024, 10:11:50 AMQuote from: Convict charlie on November 20, 2024, 08:50:24 AMQuote from: Mr_November on November 20, 2024, 07:34:40 AMJust perusing through the Buffalo State roster...they've got players from South Africa, Portugal, England, Wales, Italy...as for the rest of the players on their roster, if they aren't international they're from NY.
Stat leader, #10 Diego Rivera, is sitting pretty on 18 G, 8 A. He's had hat tricks against St. Aloysius and Oswego State.
Portuguese senior, #17 Manu Prieto, follows closely behind with 10 G, 17 A. Prieto had a hat trick vs Alfred and picked up a brace on 2 separate occasions. 4 assists vs Oswego State.
I had watched the conference championship game where they lost 3-1. It could've been 5-1 as cortland hit 4 posts and had the run of play all game. I also felt their third goal was a poor call.
In the buff state goal he made that out of nothing. It was 1 on 3. He cut from toward the sideline into the 3 players and put it in inside corner from about 20 yds out. Crafty player who plays with a lot of confidence. Just needs his one chance like he did against tufts.
Their center back is also a super player too. Super composed on the ball and walks up the field when he wants to.
The player who scored from 20 yards out - was this #10 Rivera or #17 Prieto? Or neither? Just curious.
Rivera
Wanted to do a deeper dive into Babson, since I haven't seen any of their matches yet.
Out of Babson's top 9 stat leaders, 8 of them have AT LEAST 50% SOG. That's pretty impressive and shows some serious discipline when it comes to shooting.
It also looks like they have a fairly wide spread of goals, with their top 5 stat leaders contributing at least 13 points.
Top stat leader, Kento Abe, transferred in from Maryland and is playing his Grad year at Babson. Listed as a defender at UMD but has racked up 8 goals and 6 assists for Babson. Looks like he contributed 14 games and 9 starts at UMD last season as a senior.
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on November 20, 2024, 11:03:21 AMQuote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2024, 08:17:44 PMQuote from: NEsoccerfan on November 19, 2024, 07:03:06 PMQuote from: jknezek on November 19, 2024, 05:52:23 PMI question a "high level ref" who is looking at foot rotation and thinks white touches a ball that has zero deflection. Either it's a different clip or your high level ref went to a NESCAC school and is looking for a reason to justify the call.
I'd defer to a current "high-level ref" who is grading refs based on video evidence such as this on a daily basis over a "former ref" such as you. And since you are alleging some sort of bias, he has zero affiliation with the NESCAC. Also, he knows that ref and does not speak highly of him on a personal or professional level, so no bias there either. As for me, I vehemently root against the NESCAC every chance I get.
The fact of the matter is that he is more qualified to speak on the play than any of us since we all have access to the same information yet he has the training and expertise. Now, for those who were at the game, they have more information and can more credibly make an assessment than he can. But they are also arguably the most biased.
Given that you said you thought it was a foul, and so many others did as well, I guess what is not clear to me now is what prompted you to refer the matter to the friend in the first place.
That's a rather silly question, so I'll answer it by asking you one as well. Have you ever in your 64 years felt confident about your layman's opinion on something, but still decided to sanity-check it with an expert?
Not that I can think of in a situation where I am absolutely clear on what I saw as were many, many others (and some of whom have a strong refereeing background).
Do you typically refer your initial, clear impressions supported by basically everyone else out for official review?
Not sure what 'layman' means here either. This was not a tricky, idiosyncratic close call...at least not for me..I saw no need for an expert opinion but we did have one from CSO already. This was not like a tough block/charge call in bball or a close, debatable pass interference play in football.
You raised a lot of red flags imo. You're not a NESCAC fan. Your expert isn't a NESCAC guy. Your guy knows the ref in question, but...and you thought this supported the objectivity of your guy...your guy doesn't even like the ref. What? How were those little add-on details relevant?
Thankfully, though, your expert finally confirmed what 95% of the laymen saw.
I actually did have a layman question that I referred out in this thread, which nobody attempted to answer.
Can a ref call a play back 5 seconds after the play upon realizing oh wow, I should have called that. I realize that doing that after Kirkman was about to shoot or after the goal would have been really bad from, but what if he had called it back right before or while the assist guy played the ball over the top? Or, even, sticking with his non-call could he still have interrupted play for an injury check?
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 20, 2024, 11:30:47 AMI goofed on the days when looking at the weather forecast. Things are actually better than I originally thought.
Eau-Claire shows Saturday being chilly, but mostly sunny. High of 39 degrees on Saturday. Sunday is cloudy but with a high of 42 degrees. Assuming folks travel on Friday, the weather is fine. Mostly cloudy but rain/snow is not in the forecast in Wisconsin.
Carlisle shows slightly annoying snow/rain mix in the morning changing to mostly rain in the afternoon on Friday. But Saturday is showing cloudy with a high of 52 and then Sunday is partly cloudy with a high of 52.
teams usually have a training session at the venue on Friday so i think most teams travel on Thursday
Quote from: jknezek on November 19, 2024, 11:44:23 AMQuote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2024, 11:36:00 AMIt seems like money is an issue when folks wanna make money an issue. I thought this year was supposed to be different with NPI carrying a lot of weight (as jknezek has detailed effectively) and the exception being a situation like we have with Wisconsin and Amherst. If Trinity and CMS can go there Vermont, then certainly W&L can go to Williams.
You'd have thought. I certainly thought W&L was headed to Williams and was very surprised when Carlyle popped up on the W&L schedule page.
Then again, W&L's women's team, which I think was the 3 seed overall, is going to Scranton (9) for their second weekend. They are the top NPI in a pod with Scranton, Trinity (22) and William Smith (16). I really can't figure that one out, as William Smith is Hobart, and when W&L's football team went to Hobart for an NCAA game, it was a bus trip. Trinity is a flight either way.
So I'm real confused on why the W&L women aren't at home. Maybe it had something to do with hosting priority and W&L put in to host for both teams and the men had the second weekend, so even though they didn't get it, it forced the women to the road? Don't know how that works.
I believe the reason W&L women are not at home is due to their Field Hockey team hosting the second round of their tournament. Nonetheless it's quite crazy that Trinity from Texas will be flying across the country to the home of the office, Scranton PA.
Quote from: Tyler12410 on November 20, 2024, 12:39:47 PMI believe the reason W&L women are not at home is due to their Field Hockey team hosting the second round of their tournament. Nonetheless it's quite crazy that Trinity from Texas will be flying across the country to the home of the office, Scranton PA.
One can only hope teams will be able to steer clear of the Scranton Strangler
Probably missed it but is there a video/link of the controversial no call/foul in the Messiah Williams game?
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 20, 2024, 12:16:56 PMQuote from: NEsoccerfan on November 20, 2024, 11:03:21 AMQuote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2024, 08:17:44 PMQuote from: NEsoccerfan on November 19, 2024, 07:03:06 PMQuote from: jknezek on November 19, 2024, 05:52:23 PMI question a "high level ref" who is looking at foot rotation and thinks white touches a ball that has zero deflection. Either it's a different clip or your high level ref went to a NESCAC school and is looking for a reason to justify the call.
I'd defer to a current "high-level ref" who is grading refs based on video evidence such as this on a daily basis over a "former ref" such as you. And since you are alleging some sort of bias, he has zero affiliation with the NESCAC. Also, he knows that ref and does not speak highly of him on a personal or professional level, so no bias there either. As for me, I vehemently root against the NESCAC every chance I get.
The fact of the matter is that he is more qualified to speak on the play than any of us since we all have access to the same information yet he has the training and expertise. Now, for those who were at the game, they have more information and can more credibly make an assessment than he can. But they are also arguably the most biased.
Given that you said you thought it was a foul, and so many others did as well, I guess what is not clear to me now is what prompted you to refer the matter to the friend in the first place.
That's a rather silly question, so I'll answer it by asking you one as well. Have you ever in your 64 years felt confident about your layman's opinion on something, but still decided to sanity-check it with an expert?
Not that I can think of in a situation where I am absolutely clear on what I saw as were many, many others (and some of whom have a strong refereeing background).
Do you typically refer your initial, clear impressions supported by basically everyone else out for official review?
Not sure what 'layman' means here either. This was not a tricky, idiosyncratic close call...at least not for me..I saw no need for an expert opinion but we did have one from CSO already. This was not like a tough block/charge call in bball or a close, debatable pass interference play in football.
You raised a lot of red flags imo. You're not a NESCAC fan. Your expert isn't a NESCAC guy. Your guy knows the ref in question, but...and you thought this supported the objectivity of your guy...your guy doesn't even like the ref. What? How were those little add-on details relevant?
Thankfully, though, your expert finally confirmed what 95% of the laymen saw.
What a waste of time. As I said from the beginning, I should have known better than to disturb the echo chamber, which despite you denying it at the time you quite clearly proved my point by saying "clear impressions supported by basically everyone else".
Carry on!
LOL Scranton is 2+ hours from Carlisle
W&L is hosting the Field Hockey Final 4. D3 has about 150 teams as only really the mid Atlantic and up to the NE play field hockey. https://www.collegepipe.com/universities For instance in Maryland high schools, there are maybe 3/4 as many teams that play compared to every HS which plays soccer. In ODACs, 14 women's soccer teams v. 9 FH teams.
W&L is mainly hosting because it has a legit FH field as opposed to artificial turf fields on which the vast majority of teams in HS and D3 colleges play on. It basically is a very slick (watered before they start) surface that gets the ball going really, really fast. You'll see water come up when you slap the ball. https://generalssports.com/facilities/w-l-turf-field/3
So hosting 4 teams with families of which W&L is not one of in a small rural town in VA and having women's soccer . . .
Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 20, 2024, 01:10:31 PMW&L is hosting the Field Hockey Final 4. D3 has about 150 teams as only really the mid Atlantic and up to the NE play field hockey. https://www.collegepipe.com/universities For instance in Maryland high schools, there are maybe 3/4 as many teams that play compared to every HS which plays soccer. In ODACs, 14 women's soccer teams v. 9 FH teams.
W&L is mainly hosting because it has a legit FH field as opposed to artificial turf fields on which the vast majority of teams in HS and D3 colleges play on. It basically is a very slick (watered before they start) surface that gets the ball going really, really fast. You'll see water come up when you slap the ball. https://generalssports.com/facilities/w-l-turf-field/3
So hosting 4 teams with families of which W&L is not one of in a small rural town in VA and having women's soccer . . .
yeah. It's not the first time W&L has hosted and I think they host again in 2 years. It is a great facility. Shame for women's soccer though. Legit Final 4 type team and they are on the road. Oh well. Got to win hard games to win championships. Hopefully they get through.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2024, 06:05:03 PMThe additional video is helpful. The Messiah player got trucked, plain and simple. Not unusual or close to a red imo and probably happens 10-15 times in most games. But it was a foul.
This is just clear as day. The Messiah player allows the ball to run across his body without scanning to see what is coming from behind him. In doing so the ball now has too much space and the defender pressuring the ball does not anticpate he would let it roll away from him. He has come in too quickly, definitely didn't slow down at all to try and play physical as to win and protect the ball. The defender crashes into the attacking players planted leg and that should have been that. Proceeding to then quickly throw up a quick finger wag knowing he fouled the player but hoping that the ref will not make the call.
Its a foul, nothing more than a foul, and should have been a Messiah free kick.
Please, no one else take the curmudgeons bait and please let this die.
The Skudster strikes again...and any moment now will be posting some solid, non-diarrhea commentary to give everyone something to chew on for the next 3 days.
So I shouldn't post an elaborate analogy of a forensic expert who only sees a partial glimpse of the evidence of a crime, yet goes on the stand to make a series of forceful claims and observations based on the glimpse of said evidence?
Noted. I will refrain.
As an actual forensic expert who testifies in courts daily I wish you would not refrain.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 20, 2024, 03:32:09 PMAs an actual forensic expert who testifies in courts daily I wish you would not refrain.
So we should judge PN's analysis of the videotape according to the criteria set out in the Frye test. Noted.
I'd recommend Seinfeld, Kramer and Newman for any forensic analysis.
(https://y.yarn.co/c18dffb7-3f63-4e43-9348-1abf269f93b4_text.gif)
Sorry SKUD. I am too weak to resist.
Does anyone know the status of Conn Coll's star goalie Silvester? He exited the second round game vs F&M late in the second half with an apparent injury.
I do not know the status of the injury, but if he isn't able to go this weekend it would be a major loss for the camels
Also on the availability front, any intel on UWEC's Nathan Donovan with a pre-med GPA of 3.88?
Played 86 minutes in the Blugolds' 1-0 WIAC championship victory over Platteville. DNPs for opening two rounds of NCAA tourney play. I think he's at 96 goals...so close to 100.
Can UWEC beat an excellent Platteville for a THIRD time in one season... especially if forced to go without Donovan, AA and WIAC athlete of the year?
Any opinions of who would have a better shot at upsetting the Mammoths? UWEC or Platteville?
Quote from: Little Giant 89 on November 20, 2024, 03:46:27 PMQuote from: PaulNewman on November 20, 2024, 03:32:09 PMAs an actual forensic expert who testifies in courts daily I wish you would not refrain.
So we should judge PN's analysis of the videotape according to the criteria set out in the Frye test. Noted.
The Wabash Gentleman obviously still steamed about my misspelling of Monon Bell.
Btw, on the outpouring over curmudgeon avoidance, no one can avoid the creep of time. One day, if it hasn't happened already, you'll wake up, look in the mirror, and scream to your spouse "Hey, Hazel, OMG, it happened... I'm a curmudgeon." No worries, you'll adapt. But it's far more serious if you reach Old Codger status. Then you truly are done with no recourse or appeal process.
For those not from the South, a prototypical Old Codger is one of those old dudes on the front stoop of the general store with a Marlboro Red hanging out of one side of his mouth, playing checkers with two other old codgers while nursing a 16 oz RC Cola or Cheerwine in a bottle.
GET OFF MY LAWN!!
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 21, 2024, 07:53:02 AMQuote from: Little Giant 89 on November 20, 2024, 03:46:27 PMQuote from: PaulNewman on November 20, 2024, 03:32:09 PMAs an actual forensic expert who testifies in courts daily I wish you would not refrain.
So we should judge PN's analysis of the videotape according to the criteria set out in the Frye test. Noted.
The Wabash Gentleman obviously still steamed about my misspelling of Monon Bell.
Btw, on the outpouring over curmudgeon avoidance, no one can avoid the creep of time. One day, if it hasn't happened already, you'll wake up, look in the mirror, and scream to your spouse "Hey, Hazel, OMG, it happened... I'm a curmudgeon." No worries, you'll adapt. But it's far more serious if you reach Old Codger status. Then you truly are done with no recourse or appeal process.
For those not from the South, a prototypical Old Codger is one of those old dudes on the front stoop of the general store with a Marlboro Red hanging out of one side of his mouth, playing checkers with two other old codgers while nursing a 16 oz RC Cola or Cheerwine in a bottle.
If you've see Clint Eastwood in Gran Torino, that's an Old Codger (less the rifle in the vast majority of cases).
I don't think I've seen this posted here yet, but tournament games are available live AND ON-DEMAND at:
https://www.ncaa.com/champs-pass
Lacrosse, Women's Volleyball, and Field Hockey are also available.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 21, 2024, 07:38:00 AMAlso on the availability front, any intel on UWEC's Nathan Donovan with a pre-med GPA of 3.88?
Played 86 minutes in the Blugolds' 1-0 WIAC championship victory over Platteville. DNPs for opening two rounds of NCAA tourney play. I think he's at 96 goals...so close to 100.
Can UWEC beat an excellent Platteville for a THIRD time in one season... especially if forced to go without Donovan, AA and WIAC athlete of the year?
Any opinions of who would have a better shot at upsetting the Mammoths? UWEC or Platteville?
Donovan is unfortunately done. Knee injury in the 86th minute of that match. Crutches and big knee brace.
Quote from: ramco23 on November 21, 2024, 11:22:18 AMQuote from: PaulNewman on November 21, 2024, 07:38:00 AMAlso on the availability front, any intel on UWEC's Nathan Donovan with a pre-med GPA of 3.88?
Played 86 minutes in the Blugolds' 1-0 WIAC championship victory over Platteville. DNPs for opening two rounds of NCAA tourney play. I think he's at 96 goals...so close to 100.
Can UWEC beat an excellent Platteville for a THIRD time in one season... especially if forced to go without Donovan, AA and WIAC athlete of the year?
Any opinions of who would have a better shot at upsetting the Mammoths? UWEC or Platteville?
Donovan is unfortunately done. Knee injury in the 86th minute of that match. Crutches and big knee brace.
Oh no! That's terrible. He must be devastated. I was definitely looking forward to seeing him play. Really sucks for UWEC obviously especially at this juncture in the midst of such a fantastic season.
Fredericksburg might be the sunniest spot this weekend or at least on Saturday.
^???
My predictions for the Sweet 16 - would love to hear everyone else's as well:
Midd vs CMS: 3-0 Midd
Trinity vs Babson: 2-1 Trinity
Midd vs Trinity: 1-1 (Trinity advances 3-0 on pens)
Buffalo State vs Dickinson: Dickinson 2-1
W&L vs Williams: W&L 3-0
W&L vs Dickinson: W&L 2-1
Amherst vs Wis-Superior: Amherst 3-1
WEC vs Wis-Platteville: WEC 2-0
Amherst vs WEC: Amherst 2-1
UMW vs Denison: UMW 1-0
Conn College vs Kenyon: Conn 2-0
UMW vs Conn: 1-1 (Conn advances 4-1 in pens)
If W&L hangs 3 on Williams I'm going to be thrilled.
Quote from: skg2 on November 21, 2024, 10:00:11 PMMy predictions for the Sweet 16 - would love to hear everyone else's as well:
Midd vs CMS: 3-0 Midd
Trinity vs Babson: 2-1 Trinity
Midd vs Trinity: 1-1 (Trinity advances 3-0 on pens)
Buffalo State vs Dickinson: Dickinson 2-1
W&L vs Williams: W&L 3-0
W&L vs Dickinson: W&L 2-1
Amherst vs Wis-Superior: Amherst 3-1
WEC vs Wis-Platteville: WEC 2-0
Amherst vs WEC: Amherst 2-1
UMW vs Denison: UMW 1-0
Conn College vs Kenyon: Conn 2-0
UMW vs Conn: 1-1 (Conn advances 4-1 in pens)
Do we know if Conn's amazing GK is back in action this weekend? He came out during the F&M game, but maybe they were confident being up 3. My prediction will change if he is out.
Quote from: skg2 on November 21, 2024, 10:00:11 PMMy predictions for the Sweet 16 - would love to hear everyone else's as well:
Midd vs CMS: 3-0 Midd
Trinity vs Babson: 2-1 Trinity
Midd vs Trinity: 1-1 (Trinity advances 3-0 on pens)
Buffalo State vs Dickinson: Dickinson 2-1
W&L vs Williams: W&L 3-0
W&L vs Dickinson: W&L 2-1
Amherst vs Wis-Superior: Amherst 3-1
WEC vs Wis-Platteville: WEC 2-0
Amherst vs WEC: Amherst 2-1
UMW vs Denison: UMW 1-0
Conn College vs Kenyon: Conn 2-0
UMW vs Conn: 1-1 (Conn advances 4-1 in pens)
These predictions seem very plausible. Excited to see how it aligns..
W&L seem to have a "know-how" about them. Hard to score on and dangerous going forward. Nothing pops out as outstanding, but an all around competent and well coached team. Can't wait for Williams v W&L.
Quote from: LibbyMoore on November 22, 2024, 01:07:54 AMQuote from: skg2 on November 21, 2024, 10:00:11 PMMy predictions for the Sweet 16 - would love to hear everyone else's as well:
Midd vs CMS: 3-0 Midd
Trinity vs Babson: 2-1 Trinity
Midd vs Trinity: 1-1 (Trinity advances 3-0 on pens)
Buffalo State vs Dickinson: Dickinson 2-1
W&L vs Williams: W&L 3-0
W&L vs Dickinson: W&L 2-1
Amherst vs Wis-Superior: Amherst 3-1
WEC vs Wis-Platteville: WEC 2-0
Amherst vs WEC: Amherst 2-1
UMW vs Denison: UMW 1-0
Conn College vs Kenyon: Conn 2-0
UMW vs Conn: 1-1 (Conn advances 4-1 in pens)
Do we know if Conn's amazing GK is back in action this weekend? He came out during the F&M game, but maybe they were confident being up 3. My prediction will change if he is out.
All good - score and time on the clock was the factor....
Quote from: skg2 on November 21, 2024, 10:00:11 PMMy predictions for the Sweet 16 - would love to hear everyone else's as well:
Midd vs CMS: 3-0 Midd
Trinity vs Babson: 2-1 Trinity
Midd vs Trinity: 1-1 (Trinity advances 3-0 on pens)
Buffalo State vs Dickinson: Dickinson 2-1
W&L vs Williams: W&L 3-0
W&L vs Dickinson: W&L 2-1
Amherst vs Wis-Superior: Amherst 3-1
WEC vs Wis-Platteville: WEC 2-0
Amherst vs WEC: Amherst 2-1
UMW vs Denison: UMW 1-0
Conn College vs Kenyon: Conn 2-0
UMW vs Conn: 1-1 (Conn advances 4-1 in pens)
I hope W&L wins, but the Generals aren't putting 3 past Diffley.
Quote from: Bucket on November 22, 2024, 10:24:10 AMQuote from: skg2 on November 21, 2024, 10:00:11 PMMy predictions for the Sweet 16 - would love to hear everyone else's as well:
Midd vs CMS: 3-0 Midd
Trinity vs Babson: 2-1 Trinity
Midd vs Trinity: 1-1 (Trinity advances 3-0 on pens)
Buffalo State vs Dickinson: Dickinson 2-1
W&L vs Williams: W&L 3-0
W&L vs Dickinson: W&L 2-1
Amherst vs Wis-Superior: Amherst 3-1
WEC vs Wis-Platteville: WEC 2-0
Amherst vs WEC: Amherst 2-1
UMW vs Denison: UMW 1-0
Conn College vs Kenyon: Conn 2-0
UMW vs Conn: 1-1 (Conn advances 4-1 in pens)
I hope W&L wins, but the Generals aren't putting 3 past Diffley.
He is an excellent keeper, and a mountain of a man at 6'5". W&L will not want to enter a PK shootout with him in net.
I watched much of the second half of the Hopkins vs W&L game. Just don't see a way in which they put three past Diffley
Not necessarily a counterpoint re: Diffley, but size isn't always a bonus for a GK. Diffley is the right kind of "big." Seems like in the same vicinity as Courtois (Belgium).
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 22, 2024, 11:32:56 AMNot necessarily a counterpoint re: Diffley, but size isn't always a bonus for a GK. Diffley is the right kind of "big." Seems like in the same vicinity as Courtois (Belgium).
I agree. I was interested to read his bio from before college soccer:
High School/Club: A five-year varsity starter and senior captain at Pinewood Preparatory School in Summerville, SC...Helped lead Pinewood Prep in South Carolina to two state semifinal appearances...Named South Carolina Independent School Assoc. (SCISA) Region Player of the Year in 2019 and was selected to the All-State team in 2018 and 2019...Following his senior season, he attended Deerfield Academy as a Postgraduate...Played at the club level for Charleston Battery Soccer Club, where he was named captain in his final two seasons and led the team to their first Challenge Cup title.
Not saying the Generals can't win tomorrow. I'm saying I do not see a high scoring affair with the Generals getting three.
Quote from: MunnyTim on November 22, 2024, 12:13:06 PMNot saying the Generals can't win tomorrow. I'm saying I do not see a high scoring affair with the Generals getting three.
Agreed. W&L can definitely win.
I mean, W&L is a very good team, but with all due respect, Hopkins was playing without their best defender last weekend (Andersen... Meyer is normally their defensive midfielder and he had to drop back and fill in.)
Not saying they can't beat Williams but just another notch in the "I'd be surprised if they put more than 2 in the back of the net" post.
And, for the record, I'm rooting for them and Dickinson this weekend.
Quote from: skg2 on November 21, 2024, 10:00:11 PMMy predictions for the Sweet 16 - would love to hear everyone else's as well:
Midd vs CMS: 3-0 Midd
Trinity vs Babson: 2-1 Trinity
Midd vs Trinity: 1-1 (Trinity advances 3-0 on pens)
are you taking weather into account for the games on Saturday? cold and rainy! I cant imagine trinity will be ready for this. Feet will feel like bricks and ball with be a rock. Maybe they get by on Saturday, but another cold day on Sunday on the road? Just feels like you want Middlebury, the overall number one seed, to lose instead of picking honestly.
Quote from: SoccerFan2025 on November 22, 2024, 04:05:08 PMQuote from: skg2 on November 21, 2024, 10:00:11 PMMy predictions for the Sweet 16 - would love to hear everyone else's as well:
Midd vs CMS: 3-0 Midd
Trinity vs Babson: 2-1 Trinity
Midd vs Trinity: 1-1 (Trinity advances 3-0 on pens)
are you taking weather into account for the games on Saturday? cold and rainy! I cant imagine trinity will be ready for this. Feet will feel like bricks and ball with be a rock. Maybe they get by on Saturday, but another cold day on Sunday on the road? Just feels like you want Middlebury, the overall number one seed, to lose instead of picking honestly.
I wouldn't necessarily pick Trinity but they are 19-0-3. Theyre also more than overdue to survive a New England weekend.
Are you suggesting that Midd should win because of leaden feet and heavier balls?
They're not playing outside in Greenland. Travel no doubt can take a toll but the weather thing may be a tad overrated.
Quote from: SoccerFan2025 on November 22, 2024, 04:05:08 PMQuote from: skg2 on November 21, 2024, 10:00:11 PMMy predictions for the Sweet 16 - would love to hear everyone else's as well:
Midd vs CMS: 3-0 Midd
Trinity vs Babson: 2-1 Trinity
Midd vs Trinity: 1-1 (Trinity advances 3-0 on pens)
are you taking weather into account for the games on Saturday? cold and rainy! I cant imagine trinity will be ready for this. Feet will feel like bricks and ball with be a rock. Maybe they get by on Saturday, but another cold day on Sunday on the road? Just feels like you want Middlebury, the overall number one seed, to lose instead of picking honestly.
I don't think you can call Trinity a favorite playing away from home, but if you look closely at their roster, you'll see that a healthy number of their contributors are from England, Scotland etc. It's probably been a bigger adjustment getting used to the Texas heat for them. They may feel like they are back home playing in proper football weather.
Quote from: Kuiper on November 22, 2024, 06:00:59 PMI don't think you can call Trinity a favorite playing away from home, but if you look closely at their roster, you'll see that a healthy number of their contributors are from England, Scotland etc. It's probably been a bigger adjustment getting used to the Texas heat for them. They may feel like they are back home playing in proper football weather.
So is Trinity the D3 version of Marshall?? ;D They definitely feel at home in the hills of WVA
Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 22, 2024, 06:32:09 PMQuote from: Kuiper on November 22, 2024, 06:00:59 PMI don't think you can call Trinity a favorite playing away from home, but if you look closely at their roster, you'll see that a healthy number of their contributors are from England, Scotland etc. It's probably been a bigger adjustment getting used to the Texas heat for them. They may feel like they are back home playing in proper football weather.
So is Trinity the D3 version of Marshall?? ;D They definitely feel at home in the hills of WVA
They have too many native Texans to be a D3 Marshall or Missouri State! As I recall those schools had very few players from their home state
I believe Trinity has a rostered player that won a ring with Marshall.
Quote from: Bmo on November 22, 2024, 06:44:32 PMI believe Trinity has a rostered player that won a ring with Marshall.
Great catch. So maybe only Marshall lite?? https://trinitytigers.com/sports/mens-soccer/roster/louis-instrall/8639
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 22, 2024, 04:13:43 PMQuote from: SoccerFan2025 on November 22, 2024, 04:05:08 PMQuote from: skg2 on November 21, 2024, 10:00:11 PMMy predictions for the Sweet 16 - would love to hear everyone else's as well:
Midd vs CMS: 3-0 Midd
Trinity vs Babson: 2-1 Trinity
Midd vs Trinity: 1-1 (Trinity advances 3-0 on pens)
are you taking weather into account for the games on Saturday? cold and rainy! I cant imagine trinity will be ready for this. Feet will feel like bricks and ball with be a rock. Maybe they get by on Saturday, but another cold day on Sunday on the road? Just feels like you want Middlebury, the overall number one seed, to lose instead of picking honestly.
I wouldn't necessarily pick Trinity but they are 19-0-3. Theyre also more than overdue to survive a New England weekend.
Are you suggesting that Midd should win because of leaden feet and heavier balls?
They're not playing outside in Greenland. Travel no doubt can take a toll but the weather thing may be a tad overrated.
It's a very even pod. Undefeated Trinity, 1-loss Middlebury (to Conn), and 1-loss Babson (to Middlebury). Plus a CMC team playing with a lot of confidence.
Intangibles like weather and travel could be a very big factor when all else is so even.
Score predictions for this weekend?
I don't know if CMS will last beyond the first game today, but the students working in social media are determined to milk it for all it's worth. After all, they need material for their highlight reels too! Check out this hype video they posted yesterday with clips of the boys in Vermont
https://www.instagram.com/reel/DCsMlPBJQDU/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
Quote from: Kuiper on November 23, 2024, 09:44:46 AMI don't know if CMS will last beyond the first game today, but the students working in social media are determined to milk it for all it's worth. After all, they need material for their highlight reels too! Check out this hype video they posted yesterday with clips of the boys in Vermont
https://www.instagram.com/reel/DCsMlPBJQDU/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
Well done...love this stuff!
3 minutes into the Sweet 16 and the video shuts down. Wow.
Underway in Middlebury, question will be whether game 2 will be a wet or a Steelers v. Browns situation. See that CMS invested in thermal shirts and gloves. And first glitch. . . . Reload.
Buddy of mine in the Kingdom (Northeast VT) just said that it is snowing but not sticking
SKUD, get over there and fix it!
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 23, 2024, 10:39:53 AM3 minutes into the Sweet 16 and the video shuts down. Wow.
Yup, maybe too many rushing to watch this game worldwide crashing the robust D3 transmission??
Aaaaannnnndddd...... damn stream....
SC.
Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 23, 2024, 10:42:50 AMQuote from: PaulNewman on November 23, 2024, 10:39:53 AM3 minutes into the Sweet 16 and the video shuts down. Wow.
Yup, maybe too many rushing to watch this game worldwide crashing the robust D3 transmission??
My influencing knows no bounds.....
SC.
One of those gorgeous NESCAC dogs bit through the cable.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 23, 2024, 10:44:43 AMOne of those gorgeous NESCAC dogs bit through the cable.
I'm going with beavers, muskrats and or nutrias in the pastoral setting. Much more fun.
Might miss the one and only goal . . . .
Didn't know Netflix had streaming rights to this one too...
No worries....we'll get most of the 2nd half and then video will go out again at 2-2 in PKs.
Sunny but windy day here in Fredericksburg. Mid 50s
Good to see that UMW still has that great hum/feedback again, but better than the UMW sunglare. At least the announcer is not sniffling.
looks like Midd-CMS feed is back
Great to see the 1-1 W&L, Williams goals! Both nice
THey all count, but Middlebury's goal was.... fortuitous.
SC.
Quote from: SimpleCoach on November 23, 2024, 12:44:31 PMTHey all count, but Middlebury's goal was.... fortuitous.
SC.
Always follow through, hahaha
Agreed SC, a 1-0 midd win was a fair result for this one. It felt like the panthers were gonna get it done by hook or by crook, Midd's depth gives them the edge in these close games.
As I'm typing, 15 seconds into OT, W&L's #29 just left one of the most poorly timed challenges - studs up sliding tackle to the upper shin of a Williams defender. Not surprised it's just a yellow but when will we start seeing red cards for these in D3?
W&L applying more pressure here in OT but I've got Williams in pens.
Denison put it away
The full time whistle sounds and Williams body language looks like they've already won the shootout.
W&L applied a lot of pressure in the end of regulation and OT but just couldn't slide on through. That's a shame. Good game. Not happy about PKs being a decider again...
Such a bad PKs and some great saves
These are awful penalties
That PK spot is completely torn up. Also, good guys advance!
Such a garbage way to decide a game but thrilled W&L is back in the Elite 8! I do think they were the better team.
Will Joseph is 3-1 in PK shootouts in the last two NCAA tournaments. He made some great saves against Williams. Williams keeper also did the same, just his players did not do the same on their shots.
That last Williams miss was atrocious. Shocked that coach Siebert saw that runup over and over again in practice and gave that player the nod for the 7 spot.
Gotta feel for the Williams players. Heck of a season. Diffley stood on his head.
Early tournaments MVP, Will Joseph?? Allowed 2 goals over three games along with many pk saves.
Quote from: Dustin_Patrón on November 23, 2024, 01:59:04 PMThat last Williams miss was atrocious. Shocked that coach Siebert saw that runup over and over again in practice and gave that player the nod for the 7 spot.
Gotta feel for the Williams players. Heck of a season. Diffley stood on his head.
Was a valiant effort - pressure hits ya sometimes. Never 1 man's fault in pens, wouldn't put the blame like that especially after that many misses.
Quote from: Dustin_Patrón on November 23, 2024, 01:59:04 PMThat last Williams miss was atrocious. Shocked that coach Siebert saw that runup over and over again in practice and gave that player the nod for the 7 spot.
Gotta feel for the Williams players. Heck of a season. Diffley stood on his head.
Yes and no, but very very good save as it was close to the post. However, he pretty much telegraphed that as he only really had two places to go - that corner or maybe down the middle.
Trinity are all over Babson in the first half. Should probably be 2-0 up. Not sure if this is a normal Babson thing but they don't really seem to have any interest in committing numbers to create any chances
Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 23, 2024, 01:59:32 PMEarly tournaments MVP, Will Joseph?? Allowed 2 goals over three games along with many pk saves.
Solid for Joseph, feels like a good time to mention Middlebury freshman Keagan Harder has scored in all 3 NCAA games (4 total goals including 2 game winning goals).... coming off the bench :o
Quote from: Dustin_Patrón on November 23, 2024, 02:08:30 PMQuote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 23, 2024, 01:59:32 PMEarly tournaments MVP, Will Joseph?? Allowed 2 goals over three games along with many pk saves.
Solid for Joseph, feels like a good time to mention Middlebury freshman Keagan Harder has scored in all 3 NCAA games (4 total goals including 2 game winning goals).... coming off the bench :o
Shades of Adrian Zimmerman from Washington and Lee back in 2021
I fear that these Texas boys squandered their first half chances and gave Babson some life in this second half... wouldn't be surprised if the Beavers (what a foolish mascot) nip one off a set piece.
Quite literally seconds later... the Beavers are on top off a set piece goal.
Quote from: Dustin_Patrón on November 23, 2024, 02:37:53 PMQuite literally seconds later... the Beavers are on top off a set piece goal.
Awful goalkeeping might I add. Looked like Satpathy (dressed in his winter tights and neck warmer) just punched the ball directly into the goal straight off the corner. He may have been screened by the Babson attacker but still should've done better here.
This weather seems to be affecting the Trinity boys quite negatively.
Not sure what has happened to Trinity but they look much less dominant after the break. Still in the game with Knutson on the field however
Quote from: Dustin_Patrón on November 23, 2024, 02:46:04 PMQuote from: Dustin_Patrón on November 23, 2024, 02:37:53 PMQuite literally seconds later... the Beavers are on top off a set piece goal.
Awful goalkeeping might I add. Looked like Satpathy (dressed in his winter tights and neck warmer) just punched the ball directly into the goal straight off the corner. He may have been screened by the Babson attacker but still should've done better here.
This weather seems to be affecting the Trinity boys quite negatively.
Not sure of the weather, but I think the 1st the gk knocked off a Babson player. Popcorn soccer, unfortunately.
First time watching Trinity this year and I couldn't be more underwhelmed by their performance. The Trinity Bantams could compete with them in this second half.
Cap tipped to Babson, they left the neck warmers at home and came with a game plan, stuck to it and it's paying off. Trinity showing no fight. This ones a wrap.
Unrelated but shoutout to David Saward adding some great color commentary on this Midd broadcast. He should do the final 4.
Quote from: Dustin_Patrón on November 23, 2024, 03:08:02 PMFirst time watching Trinity this year and I couldn't be more underwhelmed by their performance. The Trinity Bantams could compete with them in this second half.
Cap tipped to Babson, they left the neck warmers at home and came with a game plan, stuck to it and it's paying off. Trinity showing no fight. This ones a wrap.
Unrelated but shoutout to David Saward adding some great color commentary on this Midd broadcast. He should do the final 4.
Minor detail.... the relegation bound Trinity Bantams could
NOT compete against Trinity TX.
I would add that I think this referee is awful.
SC.
Quote from: Dustin_Patrón on November 23, 2024, 03:08:02 PMFirst time watching Trinity this year and I couldn't be more underwhelmed by their performance. The Trinity Bantams could compete with them in this second half.
Cap tipped to Babson, they left the neck warmers at home and came with a game plan, stuck to it and it's paying off. Trinity showing no fight. This ones a wrap.
Unrelated but shoutout to David Saward adding some great color commentary on this Midd broadcast. He should do the final 4.
Quote from: Dustin_Patrón on November 23, 2024, 03:08:02 PMFirst time watching Trinity this year and I couldn't be more underwhelmed by their performance. The Trinity Bantams could compete with them in this second half.
Cap tipped to Babson, they left the neck warmers at home and came with a game plan, stuck to it and it's paying off. Trinity showing no fight. This ones a wrap.
Unrelated but shoutout to David Saward adding some great color commentary on this Midd broadcast. He should do the final 4.
This is a terrible take. Trinity dominated the first half and conceded a scrappy corner and a good team goal. Still should have scored at least 1. Credit to Babson but over the 90 minutes this game has been pretty even.
Credit to Denison - obviously came in with a plan and executed it. Play disciplined D and go for set pieces/long throws.
#17 going down for UMW in the 1st half definitely impacted the play of the team. Both him & #12 were not going to be available tomorrow if they did advance so the chances of beating Conn/Kenyon would have been diminished.
Tough end to the career of all the seniors & 5th years (including my guy) but super proud of them.
Quote from: CarefreeTX on November 23, 2024, 03:15:48 PMThis is a terrible take. Trinity dominated the first half and conceded a scrappy corner and a good team goal. Still should have scored at least 1. Credit to Babson but over the 90 minutes this game has been pretty even.
Yes and no. If you only watched the second half you would definitely wonder how Trinity got here. They have not been good. But I agree, they looked good in the first half.
Not sure what happened to make such a difference. I don't see Babson really stepping up, just Trinity looking like a different team.
Quote from: eaglesoccerdad on November 23, 2024, 03:15:55 PMTough end to the career of all the seniors & 5th years (including my guy) but super proud of them.
Nothing to be ashamed about after a fantastic season.
Quote from: jknezek on November 23, 2024, 03:22:35 PMQuote from: CarefreeTX on November 23, 2024, 03:15:48 PMThis is a terrible take. Trinity dominated the first half and conceded a scrappy corner and a good team goal. Still should have scored at least 1. Credit to Babson but over the 90 minutes this game has been pretty even.
Yes and no. If you only watched the second half you would definitely wonder how Trinity got here. They have not been good. But I agree, they looked good in the first half.
Not sure what happened to make such a difference. I don't see Babson really stepping up, just Trinity looking like a different team.
Well as the broadcast announcer mentioned more than once Trinity went to their bus at halftime to stay warm?
Quote from: SimpleCoach on November 23, 2024, 03:12:43 PMQuote from: Dustin_Patrón on November 23, 2024, 03:08:02 PMFirst time watching Trinity this year and I couldn't be more underwhelmed by their performance. The Trinity Bantams could compete with them in this second half.
Cap tipped to Babson, they left the neck warmers at home and came with a game plan, stuck to it and it's paying off. Trinity showing no fight. This ones a wrap.
Unrelated but shoutout to David Saward adding some great color commentary on this Midd broadcast. He should do the final 4.
Minor detail.... the relegation bound Trinity Bantams could NOT compete against Trinity TX.
I would add that I think this referee is awful.
SC.
Do you mean that the Trinity Badtams should not have been the 9th NESCAC team in the Tournament or should they be relegated to the Little East Conf or maybe Landmark??? At least in the Landmark, we would not have see any of their games.
Quote from: Freddyfud on November 23, 2024, 03:28:26 PMQuote from: jknezek on November 23, 2024, 03:22:35 PMQuote from: CarefreeTX on November 23, 2024, 03:15:48 PMThis is a terrible take. Trinity dominated the first half and conceded a scrappy corner and a good team goal. Still should have scored at least 1. Credit to Babson but over the 90 minutes this game has been pretty even.
Yes and no. If you only watched the second half you would definitely wonder how Trinity got here. They have not been good. But I agree, they looked good in the first half.
Not sure what happened to make such a difference. I don't see Babson really stepping up, just Trinity looking like a different team.
Well as the broadcast announcer mentioned more than once Trinity went to their bus at halftime to stay warm?
I've seen that work both ways. Apparently it didn't work for Trinity. Bummer because they had a great season and I think they had the quality to keep going. Just didn't show in the second half and I hate to see that.
Good job for Babson to stay with their plan. Very workmanlike effort. Got the job done and on they go.
Quote from: eaglesoccerdad on November 23, 2024, 03:15:55 PMTough end to the career of all the seniors & 5th years (including my guy) but super proud of them.
9 grad and 8 seniors, wow. I'm sure some seniors might be back, but that is lot of players to lose. Great run.
Rah Oh, Shaggy, tie game, great goal for Wisc.-Superior. What a header.
Quote from: jknezek on November 23, 2024, 03:22:35 PMQuote from: CarefreeTX on November 23, 2024, 03:15:48 PMThis is a terrible take. Trinity dominated the first half and conceded a scrappy corner and a good team goal. Still should have scored at least 1. Credit to Babson but over the 90 minutes this game has been pretty even.
Yes and no. If you only watched the second half you would definitely wonder how Trinity got here. They have not been good. But I agree, they looked good in the first half.
Not sure what happened to make such a difference. I don't see Babson really stepping up, just Trinity looking like a different team.
I can agree with this. Not sure what happened at half time but didn't see Babson show anything different, just Trinity fading noticeably
Quote from: CarefreeTX on November 23, 2024, 03:51:00 PMQuote from: jknezek on November 23, 2024, 03:22:35 PMQuote from: CarefreeTX on November 23, 2024, 03:15:48 PMThis is a terrible take. Trinity dominated the first half and conceded a scrappy corner and a good team goal. Still should have scored at least 1. Credit to Babson but over the 90 minutes this game has been pretty even.
Yes and no. If you only watched the second half you would definitely wonder how Trinity got here. They have not been good. But I agree, they looked good in the first half.
Not sure what happened to make such a difference. I don't see Babson really stepping up, just Trinity looking like a different team.
I can agree with this. Not sure what happened at half time but didn't see Babson show anything different, just Trinity fading noticeably
Announcer said that trinity went on bus during halftime and Babson stayed outside and moving around. Weather definitely a big factor.
Super individual effort for the second goal by Kenyon!
The camera at the Kenyon game. Jesus. Sun directly into the lens and apparently it's one of those automated deals, because it's constantly lagging the play. Annoying.
Re the Williams game. They seemed like they were playing for penalties. As much as people hate on Amherst for the way they play, the same could really be said of Williams. More trash talking and fouling than most other teams. It seems like a NESCAC thing.
Quote from: Another Mom on November 23, 2024, 04:16:30 PMRe the Williams game. They seemed like they were playing for penalties. As much as people hate on Amherst for the way they play, the same could really be said of Williams. More trash talking and fouling than most other teams. It seems like a NESCAC thing.
part of the game, mom
Beautiful individual effort puts Dickinson up top late in the second.
Quote from: Dustin_Patrón on November 23, 2024, 04:18:20 PMQuote from: Another Mom on November 23, 2024, 04:16:30 PMRe the Williams game. They seemed like they were playing for penalties. As much as people hate on Amherst for the way they play, the same could really be said of Williams. More trash talking and fouling than most other teams. It seems like a NESCAC thing.
part of the game, mom
Not really. Glad to see it wasn't successful today.
They are going to be VERY tight on daylight if they get to PKs in the Kenyon-CC game.
Ballgame in Carlisle. 2-0 with 4 minutes left.
Wow. Amherst with the dagger with barely a minute left in OT2.
And PKs after dark for Kenyon-CC.
Really poor from Kenyon on the PKs. Just... bad.
Sorry to PN. That's a lousy way to go.
Quote from: Another Mom on November 23, 2024, 04:26:55 PMQuote from: Dustin_Patrón on November 23, 2024, 04:18:20 PMQuote from: Another Mom on November 23, 2024, 04:16:30 PMRe the Williams game. They seemed like they were playing for penalties. As much as people hate on Amherst for the way they play, the same could really be said of Williams. More trash talking and fouling than most other teams. It seems like a NESCAC thing.
part of the game, mom
Not really. Glad to see it wasn't successful today.
Physicality, fouling, trash talk... characterize NESCAC soccer however you'd like, but today NESCAC soccer was successful, Mom.
NESCAC schools represented 8 of the initial 64 teams (12.5%)
They now account for 3 of the remaining 8 teams (37.5%)
The numbers don't lie, enough whining.
Quote from: Dustin_Patrón on November 23, 2024, 02:46:04 PMQuote from: Dustin_Patrón on November 23, 2024, 02:37:53 PMQuite literally seconds later... the Beavers are on top off a set piece goal.
Awful goalkeeping might I add. Looked like Satpathy (dressed in his winter tights and neck warmer) just punched the ball directly into the goal straight off the corner. He may have been screened by the Babson attacker but still should've done better here.
This weather seems to be affecting the Trinity boys quite negatively.
It was quite obvious the weather was in their heads when they went and got on their bus at halftime, barely making it back on the field in time for the start of the second half.
🐫 🐫
I'll say it! WTF Kenyon?? FYI you can take PKs with your eyes open.
Man.
Scroll back, my guy... I had the same general sentiment. That was weird for such a classy, skillful team.
Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 23, 2024, 03:32:52 PMQuote from: SimpleCoach on November 23, 2024, 03:12:43 PMQuote from: Dustin_Patrón on November 23, 2024, 03:08:02 PMFirst time watching Trinity this year and I couldn't be more underwhelmed by their performance. The Trinity Bantams could compete with them in this second half.
Cap tipped to Babson, they left the neck warmers at home and came with a game plan, stuck to it and it's paying off. Trinity showing no fight. This ones a wrap.
Unrelated but shoutout to David Saward adding some great color commentary on this Midd broadcast. He should do the final 4.
Minor detail.... the relegation bound Trinity Bantams could NOT compete against Trinity TX.
I would add that I think this referee is awful.
SC.
Do you mean that the Trinity Badtams should not have been the 9th NESCAC team in the Tournament or should they be relegated to the Little East Conf or maybe Landmark??? At least in the Landmark, we would not have see any of their games.
I was thinking more like Division IV...
SC.
UW-Superior 2 Amherst 3 (Amherst progress in Operating Thetan Time)
When I started doing my intensive due diligence for the Mammoths' visit to the great state of Wisconsin, I did discover that Arnold Schwarzenegger is an alum of UWS. It also triggered a childhood memory for me that the first cat my family owned, not in Enmore I hasten to add, but in Wembley, Western Australia, was called Superior. I think the venue, Eau Claire, is one of the prettiest names for a town I have heard, inside a country that is replete with such things. I was hoping to discover that Eau Claire perhaps provides sanctuary to an endangered species of purple possums, but what I instead learnt was that it styles itself as the world's horseradish capital.
I thought Amherst was pretty good value for the 1-0 lead at half-time and then, when it went to 2-0, I even allowed myself the luxury of thinking maybe this will be a bit more straightforward. Of course, things are never that easy and a mazy run from one of the UWS players led to a penalty and at the risk of stating the obvious, the momentum swung. Their equalizer was well taken and at that stage, the game was starting to have the feel of the National Tournament semi final against W&L, where the Generals suddenly took over the game. The chronology is a bit of a blur after that, but Amherst actually attacked the game and when one of the yellowjackets got sent off, it's fair to say that whatever momentum was working their way had suddenly disappeared. I haven't read what anyone else has had to say yet , assuming people were watching it, but it did feel like there were a number of key moments that perhaps could have gone the Mammoths' way, of which this was definitely one, but others didn't, but this is the game. I understand that people may not like The Billiard Table That Is Hitchcock Field, but at least there is no ambiguity about lines, Simpson Field is really not easy to follow.
I know there are many people who love golden goal in operating thetan time, I am not sure I am one of them, but will say that it is a very good way to win a game. UWS were content to let Amherst have the ball and try and break them down and the strategy appeared to be successful until there were just sixty six seconds to go, I'm pretty sure it was a freshman inspired move, a pinpoint cross from the left was met with a lovely header from another freshmen that Kuiper clearly knows way too much about and that was that.
All credit to UW-Superior, they showed considerable resolve to come back from 2-0 down and could move the ball with some style. It's interesting seeing a state school with so many internationals, I presume that is a little unusual, but however it has happened, Coach Mooney there has done a pretty good job.
As for the Mammoths, it felt more stressful to me than it should have been, but in many ways, that has been the story of this season. But just as UWS can be congratulated for coming back from 2-0 down, the manner in which the white shirts fought back is a definite tonic for those with purple in their hearts and keeps spirits high for an elite eight game tomorrow.
Foul Count: UW-Superior 19 Amherst 25
And just like that...it's all over.
Congrats to the Camels. Yes, the PKs were horrible and as soon as PKs go wrong you can second guess everything. I wouldn't start with Martinez because he's too cheeky. Then you miss one and you're already down. Then your two best players miss back to back, the two who scored the Owls' two goals, and once the first two missed it all was pretty much academic. Give some credit to Conn. They seem to have figured out pens...until eventually they won't, but Silvester played some good and subtle head games. Kenyon looked like they were mostly hanging on in the two OTs....either fatigue or disheartened by going up 2-1 with 13 to go when their star striker who has been missing scored miraculously but also re-injured himself in the process. Kid played about 35 minutes in two games in the last 5-6 weeks and scored two huge goals in those 35 minutes. Anyway, once he was out that also was deflating, and especially after allowing Conn to scorr on a Jaren free kick from 45 yards. Both goals by Conn were very saveable and should not have happened. The second one might have involved the sun glare but I think everyone including Jaren were thinking that was a cross. Conn did a great job limiting Buchwalter's playmaking. Anyway, Kenyon had enough chances, both in the 1st half and late, and Dujakovich might have scored again with under 10 seconds in regulation if he had just calmed himself for half a second. Lazarus also had one earlier I think before Kenyon took the lead where he probably should have scored.
Congratulations to Denison as well. Tremendous result for that program, and sort of like Babson, they are still somehow under the radar. I would guess the Big Red like the dynamics of playing Conn and getting a little revenge from last year since they would have had to beat Kenyon three times in one season...which they definitely could have done and of course Duratovic would not have been able to play. I think I might slightly favor Denison against Conn.
Not sure yet (and now I really don't care) but might root for Denison for the first time in my life. What a story that would be for Denison to make the F4.
Overall, a very good showing for the NCAC.
Congrats to W&L as well. I don't think the Generals have been any better the past 4-5 years than Kenyon or Hopkins or probably a couple of other programs, and yet they may be on the cusp of THREE Final Fours in the past FOUR years. Fwiw, and I didn't watch every minute, I thought W&L equaled and probably exceeded the Williams physicality, and I mean that in a complimentrary way. They seemed almost determined to not lose because of physicality.
Quote from: Dustin_Patrón on November 23, 2024, 03:08:02 PMFirst time watching Trinity this year and I couldn't be more underwhelmed by their performance. The Trinity Bantams could compete with them in this second half.
Cap tipped to Babson, they left the neck warmers at home and came with a game plan, stuck to it and it's paying off. Trinity showing no fight. This ones a wrap.
Unrelated but shoutout to David Saward adding some great color commentary on this Midd broadcast. He should do the final 4.
First time watching. Enough said.
Quote from: EnmoreCat on November 23, 2024, 05:36:53 PMUW-Superior 2 Amherst 3 (Amherst progress in Operating Thetan Time)
I know there are many people who love golden goal in operating thetan time, I am not sure I am one of them, but will say that it is a very good way to win a game. UWS were content to let Amherst have the ball and try and break them down and the strategy appeared to be successful until there were just sixty six seconds to go, I'm pretty sure it was a freshman inspired move, a pinpoint cross from the left was met with a lovely header from another freshmen that Kuiper clearly knows way too much about and that was that.
The kid was California Southern Section and Open Division Player of the year, as well as Orange County player of the year, and he played for a well-known club in the area. Kind of hard to miss him if you followed club/HS soccer in Southern California (literally - not many 6'5" kids out on the pitch)! Knowing your GK is actually more niche because he wasn't as heralded coming out of HS and it took him longer to make an impact for the Mammoths.
Congrats to Amherst!
Conn equalized in the 1st half 2:46 after Kenyon scored, and in 2nd half equalized again 2:54 after the Owls went up 2-1. Storybook ending to nightmare. Cannot give up deep offensive throw-ins, corners, and free kicks repeatedly. For the modern D3 game at least, you almost have to intentionally recruit 2-3 guys who can play so they're on the field but who also can make the long throw. The best ones are dangerous pretty far up the sideline. Tomorrow will be one long throw after another.
The Trinity piling on surprises me and I admit I didn't see much of the match. Now folks seeming invested in the weather definitely being a factor is also being compounded by the suggestions that Trinity is somehow soft. Getting on the bus at halftime? There should be locker rooms in an athletic building for halftime. I don't get the bravado and grandstanding around that and turning weather into a character issue. But OK, if that's the take then why complain so much when folks say Trinity gets the short end of the stick with travel year in and year out? It shouldn't matter at all, or it absolutely matters. Like make up your minds. And Trinity couldn't beat the other Trinity but somehow dominated the 1st half and should have been up 1-2 goals.
Quote from: Dustin_Patrón on November 23, 2024, 05:08:48 PMQuote from: Another Mom on November 23, 2024, 04:26:55 PMQuote from: Dustin_Patrón on November 23, 2024, 04:18:20 PMQuote from: Another Mom on November 23, 2024, 04:16:30 PMRe the Williams game. They seemed like they were playing for penalties. As much as people hate on Amherst for the way they play, the same could really be said of Williams. More trash talking and fouling than most other teams. It seems like a NESCAC thing.
part of the game, mom
Not really. Glad to see it wasn't successful today.
Physicality, fouling, trash talk... characterize NESCAC soccer however you'd like, but today NESCAC soccer was successful, Mom.
NESCAC schools represented 8 of the initial 64 teams (12.5%)
They now account for 3 of the remaining 8 teams (37.5%)
The numbers don't lie, enough whining.
Ha. Numbers don't lie, but there's a lot of ways of interpreting them.
The NESCAC were seeds 1,2,4,5,6, 16, 24, and 30. All 8 should have made the second round and did (top half of the seeds). Right on schedule.
6 should have made the Sweet 16, only 5 did.
5 should make the elite 8, only 3 did. Not great.
3 should make the Final Four and both Finals teams should be NESCAC schools.
Anything else is underperformance again.
They could pretty much meet expectations, I'm a little doubtful but it's possible.
But again, no one said the top 4 or 5 NESCAC teams shouldn't be in. Of course they should. It's teams 6, 7, and 8 that some have problems with. Hamilton, Bowdoin and Wesleyan certainly did no better than expected, so I think it's still very much an open case whether the NESCAC should have had 8 in the field.
Pointing out that the chalk is beating the cheese is not exceptional, it's expected, and it's hardly a case closing argument. If anything, having the 2, 6, and 16 seeds underperform is not the best look.
Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 23, 2024, 03:43:51 PMQuote from: eaglesoccerdad on November 23, 2024, 03:15:55 PMTough end to the career of all the seniors & 5th years (including my guy) but super proud of them.
9 grad and 8 seniors, wow. I'm sure some seniors might be back, but that is lot of players to lose. Great run.
Thanks. The seniors are also done - used all 4 years of eligibility.
Quote from: jknezek on November 23, 2024, 07:43:38 PMQuote from: Dustin_Patrón on November 23, 2024, 05:08:48 PMQuote from: Another Mom on November 23, 2024, 04:26:55 PMQuote from: Dustin_Patrón on November 23, 2024, 04:18:20 PMQuote from: Another Mom on November 23, 2024, 04:16:30 PMRe the Williams game. They seemed like they were playing for penalties. As much as people hate on Amherst for the way they play, the same could really be said of Williams. More trash talking and fouling than most other teams. It seems like a NESCAC thing.
part of the game, mom
Not really. Glad to see it wasn't successful today.
Physicality, fouling, trash talk... characterize NESCAC soccer however you'd like, but today NESCAC soccer was successful, Mom.
NESCAC schools represented 8 of the initial 64 teams (12.5%)
They now account for 3 of the remaining 8 teams (37.5%)
The numbers don't lie, enough whining.
Ha. Numbers don't lie, but there's a lot of ways of interpreting them.
The NESCAC were seeds 1,2,4,5,6, 16, 24, and 30. All 8 should have made the second round and did (top half of the seeds). Right on schedule.
6 should have made the Sweet 16, only 5 did.
5 should make the elite 8, only 3 did. Not great.
3 should make the Final Four and both Finals teams should be NESCAC schools.
Anything else is underperformance again.
They could pretty much meet expectations, I'm a little doubtful but it's possible.
But again, no one said the top 4 or 5 NESCAC teams shouldn't be in. Of course they should. It's teams 6, 7, and 8 that some have problems with. Hamilton, Bowdoin and Wesleyan certainly did no better than expected, so I think it's still very much an open case whether the NESCAC should have had 8 in the field.
Pointing out that the chalk is beating the cheese is not exceptional, it's expected, and it's hardly a case closing argument. If anything, having the 2, 6, and 16 seeds underperform is not the best look.
I get your points jknezek, but you also have NESCAC's sixth ranked team making the elite eight, which probably speaks to how tight the conference is. I previously mentioned Conn is easily the best sixth ranked team in the whole of D3 and have easily justified their inclusion.
Quote from: Dustin_Patrón on November 23, 2024, 05:08:48 PMQuote from: Another Mom on November 23, 2024, 04:26:55 PMQuote from: Dustin_Patrón on November 23, 2024, 04:18:20 PMQuote from: Another Mom on November 23, 2024, 04:16:30 PMRe the Williams game. They seemed like they were playing for penalties. As much as people hate on Amherst for the way they play, the same could really be said of Williams. More trash talking and fouling than most other teams. It seems like a NESCAC thing.
part of the game, mom
Not really. Glad to see it wasn't successful today.
Physicality, fouling, trash talk... characterize NESCAC soccer however you'd like, but today NESCAC soccer was successful, Mom.
NESCAC schools represented 8 of the initial 64 teams (12.5%)
They now account for 3 of the remaining 8 teams (37.5%)
The numbers don't lie, enough whining.
Hahah what a colossally douchey comment, Dustin. What you lack in class you amply make up for in math skills bud!
Quote from: EnmoreCat on November 23, 2024, 08:00:02 PMI get your points jknezek, but you also have NESCAC's sixth ranked team making the elite eight, which probably speaks to how tight the conference is. I previously mentioned Conn is easily the best sixth ranked team in the whole of D3 and have easily justified their inclusion.
Conn Col were the 6th team in the NESCAC at the end of the regular season. They were the 5th ranked by NPI in the country after the NESCAC tournament, and the 4th ranked NESCAC squad. 2-0-1 in the tournament makes a big difference when you only play 10 conference games. It's like having another 1/3 of the season, and hard to simply ignore.
I highly doubt you would get anyone who thinks Williams, Conn Col, Amherst, Tufts or Middlebury deserve to be left out. I'd be hard pressed to say Wesleyan didn't deserve to be in. 8-6-4 and 8-6-5 are harder to swallow. A team that goes 2-4-4 in conference is... real hard for me to accept. Conn College may have been 6th entering the NESCAC tournament, but they had only lost twice all season. I don't love this world of 5+ ties, but at least they weren't pairing it with the same number of losses.
Quote from: jknezek on November 23, 2024, 07:43:38 PMQuote from: Dustin_Patrón on November 23, 2024, 05:08:48 PMQuote from: Another Mom on November 23, 2024, 04:26:55 PMQuote from: Dustin_Patrón on November 23, 2024, 04:18:20 PMQuote from: Another Mom on November 23, 2024, 04:16:30 PMRe the Williams game. They seemed like they were playing for penalties. As much as people hate on Amherst for the way they play, the same could really be said of Williams. More trash talking and fouling than most other teams. It seems like a NESCAC thing.
part of the game, mom
Not really. Glad to see it wasn't successful today.
Physicality, fouling, trash talk... characterize NESCAC soccer however you'd like, but today NESCAC soccer was successful, Mom.
NESCAC schools represented 8 of the initial 64 teams (12.5%)
They now account for 3 of the remaining 8 teams (37.5%)
The numbers don't lie, enough whining.
Ha. Numbers don't lie, but there's a lot of ways of interpreting them.
The NESCAC were seeds 1,2,4,5,6, 16, 24, and 30. All 8 should have made the second round and did (top half of the seeds). Right on schedule.
6 should have made the Sweet 16, only 5 did.
5 should make the elite 8, only 3 did. Not great.
3 should make the Final Four and both Finals teams should be NESCAC schools.
Anything else is underperformance again.
They could pretty much meet expectations, I'm a little doubtful but it's possible.
But again, no one said the top 4 or 5 NESCAC teams shouldn't be in. Of course they should. It's teams 6, 7, and 8 that some have problems with. Hamilton, Bowdoin and Wesleyan certainly did no better than expected, so I think it's still very much an open case whether the NESCAC should have had 8 in the field.
Pointing out that the chalk is beating the cheese is not exceptional, it's expected, and it's hardly a case closing argument. If anything, having the 2, 6, and 16 seeds underperform is not the best look.
This is a bankrupt argument, on all sides, if you ask me. And tiresome.
Anyone who thinks the NESCAC is underperforming in this tournament, with 3 of the final eight—and one being the team that finished 6th in the conference—is smoking something. Perfectly legal in Vermont, btw, so have at it.
BTW—I was on my regular text string with my W&L best friends (6 in total, 5 PTBAGers, including one in the record books) this afternoon, and one threw this out: "Bucket, you better not be rooting for this purple cow team." Of course not! My allegiances are clear—Panthers/Generals/Red Devils—so I'm not a NESCAC homer.
Further musings, probably only interesting to me:
The Bucket Trinity all advance to the Elite Eight. Alas, sides must now be drawn, and I officially notified Little Bucket, a freshman at Dickinson, that I'll be cheering for W&L tomorrow. I know his Aunt Sarah, a Red Devil alumna, will join him in fandom. His mother is a W&L alumna, as his grandfather, and late-great-grandfather. Have not queried their allegiances, at least his mom and grandad. My grandfather, W&L Class of 1927, would be fiercely cheering for the Generals.
- The Middlebury pod: I mean, folks who didn't watch the game, and if they did watched on a screen, can say differently, but weather was definitely a factor this afternoon. (I've just now regained feeling in my extremities.) Cold, wet, very windy, with windchill in the low 30s. What Babson did at half and what Trinity did was eye-opening, and much commented upon. And the play the second half bore this out. (Also a factor, Trinity could easily have been up 2-nil at the half. This psychological dig, combined with conditions, could have been a brutal combo.)
- Another geographical factor: the game is played differently—and, more crucially and to the point—called differently in the northeast. Very physical and officials allow it to be so. I can say for a fact, this bothered CMS to a great degree. Not making a value judgement, not saying one way is right, the other wrong, but it's a discernible factor.
- In the midwest: Watched the end of UWS and Amherst. Very impressed with the home team (Wisconsin-Eue Claire) announcers, though one curiously had a British accent that faded in and out with flat Wisconsin sound. Anyway, The game ended appropriately, on the pitch and not PKs, especially with UWS playing a man down. They desperately wanted to get to pens. Congrats to the Lord Mammoths for not letting it happen.
- Down south, in my home state of Virginia: We've already talked about the head-scratching results from the Kenyon PKs. The Camels have the pk mojo, for sure. Was not surprised in the least, though still greatly disappointed, to hear the announcer relay that a bench warning had been given to the Camels when one Conn player ran halfway onto the field to taunt a Kenyon player who had just missed a pk.
More tomorrow. Can't wait.
"Very impressed with the home team (Wisconsin-Eue Claire) announcers, though one curiously had a British accent that faded in and out with flat Wisconsin sound."
I am with you on this Bucket, for those of us watching in the antipodes (me and Sister of Enmore Kitten, it was a little unnerving to hear that not so subtle change. I will say I am not sure they consulted the name pronunciation guide before they called the game, but I've heard worse.
For the record, I don't actually think the NESCAC is underperforming. I've said many times it's the best conference in the country, by a fairly long shot, and that they deserved 5 or 6 bids. Having 3 in the Elite Eight, given the vagaries of soccer, is proof that, for the most part, their teams were right where they should be.
However, saying that having 3 in the Elite Eight proves the 6th, 7th, and 8th admitted team from the NESCAC deserved to be there, and that it's an open and shut case, is pretty ridiculous. None of those teams progressed past where the ranking they were assigned showed they should have gotten.
To me that means they were viable options for those seeds. I think there were other viable options for those seeds that could have done just as well. The fact that none underperformed means that making an argument they didn't deserve to be there is equally dicey. There simply isn't much to hang your hat on either way.
Again, the NESCAC is the top conference in the country. Their dominance over the last decade is astonishing. That doesn't mean a team that went 2-4-4 in conference and 8-6-5 overall was necessarily the right choice for the tournament field over a lot of other teams that had outstanding seasons. It does mean that the NESCAC deserves more bids than anyone else right now. 5 or 6? No problem. 8 of 11 teams? I'm still less than convinced.
Quote from: EnmoreCat on November 23, 2024, 08:25:25 PM"Very impressed with the home team (Wisconsin-Eue Claire) announcers, though one curiously had a British accent that faded in and out with flat Wisconsin sound."
I am with you on this Bucket, for those of us watching in the antipodes (me and Sister of Enmore Kitten, it was a little unnerving to hear that not so subtle change. I will say I am not sure they consulted the name pronunciation guide before they called the game, but I've heard worse.
Yeah, definitely heard them mispronounce Enmore Kitten's name. But as a PA announcer who has inadvertently butchered names on occasion, I didn't want to call them out on that one!
Quote from: jknezek on November 23, 2024, 08:27:34 PMFor the record, I don't actually think the NESCAC is underperforming. I've said many times it's the best conference in the country, by a fairly long shot, and that they deserved 5 or 6 bids. Having 3 in the Elite Eight, given the vagaries of soccer, is proof that, for the most part, their teams were right where they should be.
However, saying that having 3 in the Elite Eight proves the 6th, 7th, and 8th admitted team from the NESCAC deserved to be there, and that it's an open and shut case, is pretty ridiculous. None of those teams progressed past where the ranking they were assigned showed they should have gotten.
To me that means they were viable options for those seeds. I think there were other viable options for those seeds that could have done just as well. The fact that none underperformed means that making an argument they didn't deserve to be there is equally dicey. There simply isn't much to hang your hat on either way.
Again, the NESCAC is the top conference in the country. Their dominance over the last decade is astonishing. That doesn't mean a team that went 2-4-4 in conference and 8-6-5 overall was necessarily the right choice for the tournament field over a lot of other teams that had outstanding seasons. It does mean that the NESCAC deserves more bids than anyone else right now. 5 or 6? No problem. 8 of 11 teams? I'm still less than convinced.
You'd get no argument from me.
And, hopefully, you wouldn't find anyone who would say this outside of Clinton, Brunswick, or Middletown. (As much as I love the coaches at Bowdoin.)
Quote from: EnmoreCat on November 23, 2024, 08:25:25 PM"Very impressed with the home team (Wisconsin-Eue Claire) announcers, though one curiously had a British accent that faded in and out with flat Wisconsin sound."
I am with you on this Bucket, for those of us watching in the antipodes (me and Sister of Enmore Kitten, it was a little unnerving to hear that not so subtle change. I will say I am not sure they consulted the name pronunciation guide before they called the game, but I've heard worse.
Don't people know that an announcer with a British accent is heads and tails better, just like coaching at the youth level!! So much more qualified.
Middlebury's play by play must have started on radio and thinks we are all blind.
Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 23, 2024, 09:28:36 PMDon't people know that an announcer with a British accent is heads and tails better, just like coaching at the youth level!! So much more qualified.
Hilarious and so true!
Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 23, 2024, 09:28:36 PMQuote from: EnmoreCat on November 23, 2024, 08:25:25 PM"Very impressed with the home team (Wisconsin-Eue Claire) announcers, though one curiously had a British accent that faded in and out with flat Wisconsin sound."
I am with you on this Bucket, for those of us watching in the antipodes (me and Sister of Enmore Kitten, it was a little unnerving to hear that not so subtle change. I will say I am not sure they consulted the name pronunciation guide before they called the game, but I've heard worse.
Don't people know that an announcer with a British accent is heads and tails better, just like coaching at the youth level!! So much more qualified.
Middlebury's play by play must have started on radio and thinks we are all blind.
Come on, my friend. The Bruce Bosley-Dave Saward combo is as good as it gets.
And yes, everything sounds more erudite in a British accent. To wit: During Midd-CMS, CMS assistant coach, expressing displeasure with a call, exclaims: "You sir, are a clown." In the Queen's English. Brought a smile to my face.
Quote from: Bucket on November 23, 2024, 08:18:44 PMThis is a bankrupt argument, on all sides, if you ask me. And tiresome.
This whole NESCAC stand off on these boards is tiresome. Some of us are actually trying to enjoy the games. As long as the competition is worthy as it has been no one else seems to care about the conferences at this point.
Quote from: Bucket on November 23, 2024, 08:18:44 PMThe Bucket Trinity all advance to the Elite Eight. Alas, sides must now be drawn, and I officially notified Little Bucket, a freshman at Dickinson, that I'll be cheering for W&L tomorrow. I know his Aunt Sarah, a Red Devil alumna, will join him in fandom. His mother is a W&L alumna, as his grandfather, and late-great-grandfather. Have not queried their allegiances, at least his mom and grandad. My grandfather, W&L Class of 1927, would be fiercely cheering for the Generals.
Will you have security at your Thanksgiving dinner?
Interesting that every thread gets sucked into a NESCAC argument, instead of discussing all the remarkable soccer.
Good luck to the final 8.
Took in the pair of games in Fredericksburg yesterday. Both were worth the time and effort.
I really feel for the kids at UMW, who played a heck of a game, but just could not find the back of the net. Controlled the midfield for much of the contest and forced the Denison keeper into at least one very good save. The winning goal came on a set piece from the left wing - the UMW defender committed an unnecessary foul 40 yards from the goal. Keeper came off his line for a punch, did not get enough of it and a flicked header at the back post won it. Tough for those seniors at UMW to lose like that.
Game two. PN, your Owls played well. As I saw it, the stats do not tell the story of the game (they show that the Camels outshot the Owls 21-8). I saw it as a much closer affair. The Owls first was a deflection off a Conn defender that wrong footed Silvester and dribbled into the net. Conn equalized on a nice sequence up the left wing.
In the end, the two most important goals of the day (the Denison winner and Conn equalizer) came from virtually the same place on the left wing, both off set pieces. On the Conn equalizer, an in-swinger from Jaran was attacked at about the penalty spot by a Conn attacker, who did not make contact with the ball (just over his head). My suspicion is the Kenyon keeper misread that the Conn player was going to get it and therefore, was wrong footed as it found the net at the back post.
No need to comment on the penalties. They were what they were. I feel for the Kenyon kids b/c they played a heck of a game and for multiple segments of the game, they were superior.
With apologies to those who are looking for less NESCAC discourse, NESCAC teams are 13-2-5 (77.5%) here at the halfway mark of the tournament (the champion in waiting has just earned its third of six results). We'll see how the remaining three fare today (and potentially beyond) but only two of the eight teams have gone out by loss to date.
No one has commented on the Dickinson Buffalo State game yesterday. I watched some of the 1st half -- Dickinson is a really strong team. From what I saw they dominated the game. W&L will have their work cut out for them!
So, in the first year of the NPI, teams ranked 1, 4, 5, 7, 10, 14, 17, and 18 comprise the Great 8. Not bad, although not precisely how you might have expected it if NPI was a predictive ranking (it's not, in part because it does not take into account home-away or margin of victory). If you are looking for a predictive factor, it is probably that each advancing team, except two, hosted, did not have to travel far, or played on a neutral site. Of the two exceptions, Amherst beat the team that was the lowest NPI ranked team left in the tournament by several orders of magnitude (Wisconsin-Superior was ranked #72, with the next lowest Buffalo State at #33), leaving Denison's victory over Mary Washington as the biggest upset, but it was also the least disruptive of the long travel (no time zone difference or flight) and a relatively small spread under the NPI rankings (3 v. 14).
The implication is that Amherst beating Eau Claire away today would be a bigger deal than any of the other games, although tons of other factors like injuries (Nathan Donovan) and past results (Babson losing to Middlebury away earlier this season) would probably be more relevant than either NPI or travel distance/hassle.
Quote from: Bucket on November 23, 2024, 08:18:44 PMAlas, sides must now be drawn, and I officially notified Little Bucket, a freshman at Dickinson, that I'll be cheering for W&L tomorrow. I know his Aunt Sarah, a Red Devil alumna, will join him in fandom.
With Hopkins eliminated, I can now join my wife, a Red Devil alumna, and my daughter, a Red Devil sophomore, in rooting for Dickinson, although I expect W&L to win.
Quote from: Bucket on 11/23/2024, 8:18:44 PMThe Camels have the pk mojo, for sure. Was not surprised in the least, though still greatly disappointed, to hear the announcer relay that a bench warning had been given to the Camels when one Conn player ran halfway onto the field to taunt a Kenyon player who had just missed a pk.
[/li][/list]
Quote from: Bucket on 11/23/2024, 8:18:44 PMMore tomorrow. Can't wait.[/list]
Sad state for this team. Definitely shows poor sportsmanship. PKs are terrible way to win and a worse way to lose. Every PK kicker deserves respect. Sounds like this Conn player was not even selected by his team to represen them in taking a PK?
Quote from: Another Mom on November 24, 2024, 09:24:08 AMNo one has commented on the Dickinson Buffalo State game yesterday. I watched some of the 1st half -- Dickinson is a really strong team. From what I saw they dominated the game. W&L will have their work cut out for them!
I popped in a few comments. The only caveat I'd throw out is Buffalo State was really punching up. They played a very gritty game, but the 2-0 score line is more than far.
I expect a very even game today.
Yeah, I didn't want to make too big a deal of the Conn players, but:
* - First kick taker absolutely said something off-color to the goalie after he made his shot to the Kenyon goalie.
* - After the Conn GK saved his first shot, he came off the ground talking sh*t to the kicker.
* - After the second miss, CC player came off the bench to taunt the kicker to get the bench warning.
This stuff isn't "part of the game." It's really obnoxious and unsportsmanlike behavior.
Guys missing PKs in the third round of the NCAA is going to sit with those kids for the rest of their lives. Rubbing it in and trash talking in that moment is pretty low.
Quote from: Another Mom on November 24, 2024, 09:24:08 AMNo one has commented on the Dickinson Buffalo State game yesterday. I watched some of the 1st half -- Dickinson is a really strong team. From what I saw they dominated the game. W&L will have their work cut out for them!
Trust me, nobody wants to talk about Dickinson other than them hosting this weekend. They have no fans (or maybe only persons who lurk) on this board. They are a team on tear, much like W&L. Despite their record, every board expert, including myself, did not think they would be here. They were supposed to fade once they started Cent. Conf games which arguably they did a bit. They got beat pretty definitely by JHU twice to include in the semis. Thus dismissed again as a team that was fine, but nothing to look at. A team now made the NCAAs and again not supposed to be here. They could be the Washington College this year.
What we don't talk about is their ability to score and score and score. That is probably the biggest difference from everyone on the board has not talked about. They aren't waiting till pks to win. They are not struggling in that category. Notice I said "they," because come from several players unlike some who rely one, maybe two. That is big difference between WC and Dickinson.
As to the W&L, they beat its arch rival 2-0. They dominated Lynchburg at Lynchburg. So this team may be the one W&L does not want to meet right now. Obviously, we will see.
Sa w a few Dickinson games, the offense is potentially explosive, W&L I have not seen much of this year but remember them from last year playing Tufts, they have some good talents, tend to be patient.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 24, 2024, 10:13:08 AMYeah, I didn't want to make too big a deal of the Conn players, but:
* - First kick taker absolutely said something off-color to the goalie after he made his shot to the Kenyon goalie.
* - After the Conn GK saved his first shot, he came off the ground talking sh*t to the kicker.
* - After the second miss, CC player came off the bench to taunt the kicker to get the bench warning.
This stuff isn't "part of the game." It's really obnoxious and unsportsmanlike behavior.
Guys missing PKs in the third round of the NCAA is going to sit with those kids for the rest of their lives. Rubbing it in and trash talking in that moment is pretty low.
Yep, and the antics weren't just limited to CC. Williams was engaging in similar behavior. I've also seen it with Centennial, NJAC, SUNYAC teams etc. It seems to have gotten worse over the years. Not to be one of those "back in my day" posters, but I don't remember the PK antics being as prevalent when I played. Players stepped up and tried to make PKs and keepers tried to make saves (minimal amount of dumb run ups, not as much trash talking or attempted "mind games" towards opponents)
And this behavior 100% starts at the top w/ the coaching staff. Not to beat a dead horse re: NESCAC vs other conferences, but I've watched Messiah games for close to 2 decades and I can probably count on one hand the number of unsportsmanlike incidents from them. Some teams match that in one season...
Quote from: camosfan on November 24, 2024, 10:28:56 AMSa w a few Dickinson games, the offense is potentially explosive, W&L I have not seen much of this year but remember them from last year playing Tufts, they have some good talents, tend to be patient.
Very true, problem for playing an offensive team is being patient. Plus playing on Dickinson's grass which is uneven and possible wind, ball is going to popcorn. Not a lot of smooth passes on the ground in Carlisle. Dickinson has some finishers.
Quote from: paclassic89 on November 24, 2024, 11:13:33 AMQuote from: Hopkins92 on November 24, 2024, 10:13:08 AMYeah, I didn't want to make too big a deal of the Conn players, but:
* - First kick taker absolutely said something off-color to the goalie after he made his shot to the Kenyon goalie.
* - After the Conn GK saved his first shot, he came off the ground talking sh*t to the kicker.
* - After the second miss, CC player came off the bench to taunt the kicker to get the bench warning.
This stuff isn't "part of the game." It's really obnoxious and unsportsmanlike behavior.
Guys missing PKs in the third round of the NCAA is going to sit with those kids for the rest of their lives. Rubbing it in and trash talking in that moment is pretty low.
Yep, and the antics weren't just limited to CC. Williams was engaging in similar behavior. I've also seen it with Centennial, NJAC, SUNYAC teams etc. It seems to have gotten worse over the years. Not to be one of those "back in my day" posters, but I don't remember the PK antics being as prevalent when I played. Players stepped up and tried to make PKs and keepers tried to make saves (minimal amount of dumb run ups, not as much trash talking or attempted "mind games" towards opponents)
And this behavior 100% starts at the top w/ the coaching staff. Not to beat a dead horse re: NESCAC vs other conferences, but I've watched Messiah games for close to 2 decades and I can probably count on one hand the number of unsportsmanlike incidents from them. Some teams match that in one season...
Some play for themselves. Others play for love and respect for the game. It is easy to spot the difference.
Ironically, watching the pre-game sportsmanship commercial montages :o
I don't remember the kickers being as obnoxious, but there was a time in the 80s and 90s when the goalies were taught to be absolute jerks pre-kick until the rules changed. Standing on the ball pretending to shake hands, taunting, making motions. There was time at goalie camp devoted to "getting in the taker's head" and it got really bad. Thankfully the rules changed and most of those antics stopped pre-kick.
I think the rules should change again. Unsportsmanlike conduct by the goalie means a miss kick is retaken, by the kicker means a made kick is retaken. Just like coming off the line early or fake kicks.
As a North region guy lost in all of this NESCAC love-hate I just want to point out that one of the biggest stories of the tournament really is that the 4th leading goalscorer of ALL TIME in D3 soccer (Nathan Donovan from UWEC) hasn't played a minute in this tournament and is done for the season. Yet, his team is in the final 8. If he played for a team further east this would be discussed more, but we in the north generally are stuffed into the same sectional and largely ignored. It's ok, we are used to it.
Quote from: jknezek on November 24, 2024, 12:25:47 PMI don't remember the kickers being as obnoxious, but there was a time in the 80s and 90s when the goalies were taught to be absolute jerks pre-kick until the rules changed. Standing on the ball pretending to shake hands, taunting, making motions. There was time at goalie camp devoted to "getting in the taker's head" and it got really bad. Thankfully the rules changed and most of those antics stopped pre-kick.
I think the rules should change again. Unsportsmanlike conduct by the goalie means a miss kick is retaken, by the kicker means a made kick is retaken. Just like coming off the line early or fake kicks.
LOVE this idea. And this is coming from a goalie that let everyone know when I stopped a PK. I just didn't direct it at the kicker, more towards my teammates.
W&L up 2-1 at the half. A very deserved score line but both Dickinson's goal and W&Ls second were... Not the prettiest. Field looks awful. Every pass on the ground is an adventure.
Fairly clean game but no doubt W&L was the better team in the first half. 2 goals and a couple other half chances. Dickinson scored on one of two moments they looked threatening in the box.
Overall, W&L is just smothering Dickinson before they can get to the offensive third and putting a lot of pressure on them with a press. Normally I'd say it's hard to do both those things at the same time, but W&L has made it look easy so far.
All to play for in the second half with only a one goal lead.
Quote from: mngopher on November 24, 2024, 12:36:00 PMAs a North region guy lost in all of this NESCAC love-hate I just want to point out that one of the biggest stories of the tournament really is that the 4th leading goalscorer of ALL TIME in D3 soccer (Nathan Donovan from UWEC) hasn't played a minute in this tournament and is done for the season. Yet, his team is in the final 8. If he played for a team further east this would be discussed more, but we in the north generally are stuffed into the same sectional and largely ignored. It's ok, we are used to it.
What a remarkable stat and kudos to both him and UWEC. While I'm well aware of the caveat that they pile on goals against some very questionable competition, you have to tip your hat to that much consistent production over four years. Needless to say I'll be cheering for them this afternoon.
Good Lord, Carlisle got a nutty. 3-2 to the Generals but Dickinson has the momentum the last few minutes.
Midd - Babson edging toward PKs.
Middlebury wins it after 5 kicks. Questionable to have White take the first kick given he skied it, but made a save later in the shootout. Both teams had one saved. Congrats to the Panthers moving on to Vegas, and the Beavers should be proud after a big run...they had not made it past the first weekend since 2011.
Agreed. Whenever the HS team I coach has had a GK take a penalty, we always wait until after they have saved one or at least faced a couple of shots before having them go.
Penalty shot made it closer than it should have been, but W&L deservedly on to their third Final Four in 4 seasons. A strong effort shut down Dickinson's danger men.
Good luck on Vegas boys! Breakthrough!
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 24, 2024, 10:13:08 AMYeah, I didn't want to make too big a deal of the Conn players, but:
* - First kick taker absolutely said something off-color to the goalie after he made his shot to the Kenyon goalie.
* - After the Conn GK saved his first shot, he came off the ground talking sh*t to the kicker.
* - After the second miss, CC player came off the bench to taunt the kicker to get the bench warning.
This stuff isn't "part of the game." It's really obnoxious and unsportsmanlike behavior.
Guys missing PKs in the third round of the NCAA is going to sit with those kids for the rest of their lives. Rubbing it in and trash talking in that moment is pretty low.
I don't know where to start so I'll begin by going through these point as I was at the game standing behind the fence
First of all the first kicker all he said was you got this Peter after he kicked the ball. The Gk was complaining because the ref wouldn't let him talk to the kicker(leave it up to you if the ref should do that)
Second of all the goalkeeper said thank you and gave a thumbs up after the Kenyan kicker pointed to a side and said I'm going to f...ing bury you that way went the way he pointed and missed( leave it up to you if it's wise to point where you are going)
Third one didn't see but pretty sure player would have got a yellow if he walked half way on to the field. If he did no place for that
I feel that people are very quick to attack students character without any context but I am new to the boards so maybe I need to see more myself before I make the judgment
1) the first kicker said
Tough to see Babson bow out, especially with another loss in PKs, but very proud of the squad. Congratulations to Middlebury. They earned it, and if it had to end with a loss I'm grateful for all Tim Peng contributed to the green and white.
This Amherst/UWEC game is shaping up to be a brutal watch
Quote from: paclassic89 on November 24, 2024, 04:26:55 PMThis Amherst/UWEC game is shaping up to be a brutal watch
I hope Amherst plays nice - unlike those other NESCAC jerks!
Both teams are long ball/ long throw merchants. It's not about the NESCAC
D3 soccer in general seems to be all about the long throw. Feels like 80% of the teams in the tournament have one.
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on November 24, 2024, 02:23:55 PMQuote from: mngopher on November 24, 2024, 12:36:00 PMAs a North region guy lost in all of this NESCAC love-hate I just want to point out that one of the biggest stories of the tournament really is that the 4th leading goalscorer of ALL TIME in D3 soccer (Nathan Donovan from UWEC) hasn't played a minute in this tournament and is done for the season. Yet, his team is in the final 8. If he played for a team further east this would be discussed more, but we in the north generally are stuffed into the same sectional and largely ignored. It's ok, we are used to it.
What a remarkable stat and kudos to both him and UWEC. While I'm well aware of the caveat that they pile on goals against some very questionable competition, you have to tip your hat to that much consistent production over four years. Needless to say I'll be cheering for them this afternoon.
A good example here of the lack of knowledge about north region teams. You are likely confusing them with UMAC member UW-Superior. UW Eau Claire has played a high quality schedule since starting their program in 2021.
I guess we'll have to wait for eyewitnesses to explain that PK call. (I don't have sound on.)
Not the right board, I know, but... Midd women just won their 7th consecutive Field Hockey national title over NESCAC rival, Tufts. Unfortunately, the game was marred by numerous life-threatening fouls, ugly language, knife pulling and other examples of NESCAC on NESCAC violence.
It probably did but you have to play to the whistle. Insane that the UWEC right back completely gave up on the play before a call was made.
edit: replied to a deleted comment about the ball going out of play before Amherst's 2nd goal
Quote from: Middfan on November 24, 2024, 05:57:46 PMNot the right board, I know, but... Midd women just won their 7th consecutive Field Hockey national title over NESCAC rival, Tufts. Unfortunately, the game was marred by numerous life-threatening fouls, ugly language, knife pulling and other examples of NESCAC on NESCAC violence.
I hope they enjoyed the trip to Lexington. It's a fantastic facility. Not the best for hotel rooms or easy access for flights, but a nice setting for a final four.
Quote from: paclassic89 on November 24, 2024, 06:05:04 PMIt probably did but you have to play to the whistle. Insane that the UWEC right back completely gave up on the play before a call was made.
edit: replied to a deleted comment about the ball going out of play before Amherst's 2nd goal
my bad man, still learning how to use this thing lol
the crazy thing is that watching it again, it looks like the ball may have gone out. if it didnt, then Nuhu looks like he was offside on the pass from the Amherst centerback
but totally agree with playing to the whistle
Quote from: paclassic89 on November 24, 2024, 04:26:55 PMThis Amherst/UWEC game is shaping up to be a brutal watch
That is an understatement. It looks like helter skelter out there and I don't think both teams have strung 3 passes together. Would have loved to see UWEC 26 goal scorer play but he was injured. The PK I guess you can say was controversial as many players stopped except for NuNu who just took off with it. Don't think the ref or linesman was in position make a call but it happened so fast. Smart play by NuNu to keep playing though.
Final Four.....three NESCACs and the "NESCAC of the South" (a singular distinction because Davidson is D1).
We were very close to having all four from NESCAC...and also close to having none.
Anyone who watched W&L vs Dickinson and Babson vs Midd, what were your thoughts
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 24, 2024, 10:21:46 PMFinal Four.....three NESCACs and the "NESCAC of the South" (a singular distinction because Davidson is D1).
We were very close to having all four from NESCAC...and also close to having none.
I think every Final Four team had to win on PKs at least once, W&L twice. Given the awfulness of deciding a game that way, and often the randomness, W&L had amazing PKs against Col College last year and then couldn't hit the broadside of a barn against Amherst, I struggle to think of this as a conclusive Final Four.
They are, however, the last 4 standing and Vegas should be interesting. Unfortunately, unlike last year, there will be no road trip for me to see the Generals. I'm willing to drive a long way, but not that far, and spending $2k to fly and rent a car is just a step too far, even for this proud alum!
Quote from: Garden12 on November 24, 2024, 10:50:22 PMAnyone who watched W&L vs Dickinson and Babson vs Midd, what were your thoughts
W&L had Dickinson's number. The Red Devils ping ponged in a goal and got one on a PK, but W&L was very much in control of the vast majority of the game and contained the Red Devil offense pretty easily. The PK provided more drama and hope for Dickinson than the game deserved.
I was amazed how well the Generals stifled Dickinson in the midfield and just smothered them in the attacking 3rd. Dickinson did well to keep W&L out of the goal through the run of play, but they had no answer for set pieces. Which mirrored a lot of challenges in the middle of the field. W&L just kept winning balls.
UW Eau Claire 1 Amherst 2
Up front, I have to say I was quite busy at work at kick off time, so whilst I was paying as close attention as I could, I definitely don't claim to have seen every moment. Irrespective, I felt considerable tension as every supporter does as the season deepens and stakes get commensurately higher.
I thought the Mammoths started well and were good value for their initial lead, but had the same feeling from the season's start that very good teams like the Blu-Golds can reduce that margin quickly and that a second goal at least, was a necessity. I didn't see the lead up to the penalty, but did see it taken and felt just that bit more comfortable. Of course, that's not the same thing as believing the game was done and it was no surprise that UWEC came back hard and for a few minutes at least, Amherst was well and truly tested and it wasn't a surprise that they got things back to 2-1.
I may have been fortunate to being distracted by work, but eventually it started to feel like Amherst had ridden out the storm and were holding the Blu-Golds at bay and actually launching dangerous attacks and holding the ball further up the field. And I think on the balance I saw, that the Mammoths deserved to progress.
Commiserations to UWEC, it's completely obvious why they have enjoyed a stellar season and it's clear to me that the game is alive and well in Wisconsin. For Amherst, it will be the third final four in four seasons and irrespective of what comes next, is an outstanding achievement. I suspect those with purple in their hearts felt nervous about the trip to WI and playing very good teams in their own environment, but the reality is that this squad got through and now gets the team building benefits that accrue from a serious and successful road trip.
Under normal circumstances, I would be quite unlikely to visit Las Vegas, but I now have a very good reason to go. I was watching The Hangover for about the ninth time on my way back home in October and will do my best to avoid anything to do with Mike Tyson's tiger.
Foul Count: UWEC 9 Amherst 14 (although the commentators made it sound like were lots more)
The silence in this thread is deafening. My thoughts and prayers are with the nescac haters, must be a dark day for them.
Quote from: Dustin_Patrón on November 24, 2024, 11:50:29 PMThe silence in this thread is deafening. My thoughts and prayers are with the nescac haters, must be a dark day for them.
Thanks for your true touch of class and helping support the hatred they have.
Happy Thanksgiving!
Quote from: Garden12 on November 24, 2024, 10:50:22 PMAnyone who watched W&L vs Dickinson and Babson vs Midd, what were your thoughts
Babson-Midd. Midd outplayed Babson much of the game but once again had hard time finishing, giving Babson key opportunities to score. A few clutch saves from Waterman in net kept them in it. Still trying to figure out why babson had their keeper lead off on the pens. overall a great match and class from both sides.
Middlebury v Babson [Elite 8]
What an entertaining match. This was my first time watching Midd this season (I know, shame) and I was mightily impressed. They are loaded with skillful, tall midfielders that have a certain edge to them. #17 in particular caught my eye (was it the green cleats?).
Babson was impressive in the sense that they were incredibly organized defensively. I loved how Babson built out of the back - both CBs displaying top notch composure and distribution. They often looked for penetrating passes to skilled MFs who were comfortable receiving the ball with pressure on their back. I thought they were dangerous on the counter and quite sound in defense. There was one moment in OT where a Babson player had a smash from the top of the box through heavy traffic, and I'm sure the Midd players had hearts in mouths as they watched the ball whistle past the post.
The Midfield in this match was tightly contested and became increasingly more of a warzone as the two teams entered deeper into OT.
And of course, as mentioned previously, any announcer with an English accent is automatically over qualified to announce a D3 match ;)
PKs were a thrill to watch. Felt Babson were in for it as soon as their keeper took the first PK and skied it.
Overall, two really good sides who showed why they belonged in the final 8 teams of the tournament.
For those unfamiliar with the Midd broadcasts, the English accent belongs to former Midd coach David Saward, who coached the Panthers from 1985-2017, compiling a record of 359-126-59 (.714), including the 2007 National Championship. He also coached Alex Elias (current Midd coach), Kyle Dezotell (current Tufts coach), and Scott Wiercinski (current Bowdoin coach).
Quote from: College Soccer Observer on November 25, 2024, 08:17:17 AMFor those unfamiliar with the Midd broadcasts, the English accent belongs to former Midd coach David Saward, who coached the Panthers from 1985-2017, compiling a record of 359-126-59 (.714), including the 2007 National Championship. He also coached Alex Elias (current Midd coach), Kyle Dezotell (current Tufts coach), and Scott Wiercinski (current Bowdoin coach).
CSO, thanks for the context. Just found his Hall of Fame page...
https://athletics.middlebury.edu/honors/hall-of-fame/david-saward/66 (https://athletics.middlebury.edu/honors/hall-of-fame/david-saward/66)
Met him last year during the NESCAC finals weekend, nice person.
Quote from: Mr_November on November 25, 2024, 07:52:05 AMMiddlebury v Babson [Elite 8]
What an entertaining match. This was my first time watching Midd this season (I know, shame) and I was mightily impressed. They are loaded with skillful, tall midfielders that have a certain edge to them. #17 in particular caught my eye (was it the green cleats?).
Babson was impressive in the sense that they were incredibly organized defensively. I loved how Babson built out of the back - both CBs displaying top notch composure and distribution. They often looked for penetrating passes to skilled MFs who were comfortable receiving the ball with pressure on their back. I thought they were dangerous on the counter and quite sound in defense. There was one moment in OT where a Babson player had a smash from the top of the box through heavy traffic, and I'm sure the Midd players had hearts in mouths as they watched the ball whistle past the post.
The Midfield in this match was tightly contested and became increasingly more of a warzone as the two teams entered deeper into OT.
And of course, as mentioned previously, any announcer with an English accent is automatically over qualified to announce a D3 match ;)
PKs were a thrill to watch. Felt Babson were in for it as soon as their keeper took the first PK and skied it.
Overall, two really good sides who showed why they belonged in the final 8 teams of the tournament.
One of the Babson CB's (Cerezo) was a 5th year transfer from Conn College - great player and a great career.
Does anyone have any insight on the other side of the bracket? I haven't had the opportunity to watch either Connecticut College or Washington and Lee play?
W&L v Williams PK Shootout
I had talked up a big game about the Williams keeper, Diffley...but how about Will Joseph of W&L? Mentality monster in net during the shootout. Both Diffley and Joseph are great keepers in their own right. I thought William's first PK taker, #28 Tate Michelson, was unfortunate to somewhat lose his footing while striking his pen. Fast forward to the 6th PK for W&L taken by Ryan Sharpe (a freshman). What a lovely, deft, little dink. Impressive composure. I also enjoyed watching the leadership of #21 at the back for W&L, PJ Ryan - 6'1, 180 lbs.,no nonsense defender.
How do we think W&L will fare against CC in the Final Four?
Quote from: Johnny231 on November 25, 2024, 10:07:02 AMDoes anyone have any insight on the other side of the bracket? I haven't had the opportunity to watch either Connecticut College or Washington and Lee play?
First off this will be a rematch of the 2021 final four with Conn coming out on top in what was considered an upset I believe.
I've watched a lot of Conn so I can only speak to that side. Strong defense (susceptible to the counter now and again) and tries to build out the back/possess as much as is allowed in the NESCAC ;) Both strikers seem to be hitting their stride at the right time.
Conn was missing one of their starting CB's last weekend and hoping he can be fit for Vegas. As in most sports, health is king at this point of the season.
Agree^^. W&L was missing a key starter as well last weekend.
My season is over, but the humanitarian in me can't tolerate just watching Dustin P flail away with his desperate hunger for validation. Deep and abiding narcissistic insecurity is a tough nut to crack. Believe me, I know.
Congratulations to Midd. I didn't watch a second of action yesterday other than catching the Midd-Babson PKs. Very impressive for Midd to pull through as I imagine the Panther faithful thought they were watching the same gut-wrenching end to the movie that has capped off other recent stellar campaigns. Deserving is not the right word, but for simplicity, Midd imo is the most deserving among NESCACs for breaking through (and yes, before you repeat it, I know Midd won the title on 2007 without scoring a goal). The Panthers finally caught a break with Amherst getting shipped safely to a faraway land. Midd was arguably the second best team in the country for the most of or the entire season. If the PKs had gone sideways, Panther fans could have fairly wondered if their time would ever come. Speaking of getting knocked out in the Elite 8, full credit to Babson. Incredible season, and even though falling in the Elite 8 is no doubt about the most painful thing that can happen in our tiny D3 world, it is also imo the cutoff mark for a phenomenal season (at least for programs that have been hovering around the top end of D3 for a minute). Few will remember Babson knocking out undefeated Trinity in the Sweet 16, and even fewer will credit Babson instead of making a meal of Trinity's winter-weather fragilities. And next up for the Middlebury Panthers.....the Mammoths.
Speaking of Amherst, an irony of the Mammoths becoming the poster child for everything some of us love to hate about NESCAC, is that they are imo the NESCAC least dependent on being a NESCAC (and yes, I know dependent is not exactly the right word either). In other words, Amherst would be Amherst regardless of where it is and what conference it is in. Certainly there is competition at the very top, but if you put total titles aside, one can legimately argue that Amherst has been D3s best and most consistent program for 15 years. Hear that, Mammoths Nation? You are #1! Tip of the cap to Amherst. There is no denying the record of excellence.
Oh, dear, sweet Connecticut College. As most know, I have been a Conn lover and defender for some time now. I love Conn and I love Burk, and I feel like I've known a handful of their players for a decade. Except for (maybe) a small break with Denison jettisoning UMW to the 2025-2026 season, Conn went through Amherst, Williams, and Middlebury, and then F&M, Kenyon, and Denison. Well-earned trip back to the Final 4. The Camels are as likely as any of the four to take the hardware again. That said, love has its limits. My saltiness about Conn has not so much to do with knocking out my Owls or the alleged acting out during the PKs. I'm sure there had been some jawing between both teams throughout the game, and Martinez for Kenyon likes to talk trash. I don't begrudge Conn players for acting any particular way. Prevail, and you get to talk smack and celebrate within the confines of the law. If the NESCAC Golden Retrievers, Akitas, and Samoyeds were all unleashed to do their business on the Kenyon logo, what do I care? I'm already reduced to waiting six to seven months for the Owls' 2025-2026 season schedule. I trust Burk will keep the Camels grounded and at least feigning gratitude, as long as they don't forget that modesty works best for them. Conn is the exact opposite of Amherst. Conn needs the NESCAC probably more than any other NESCAC school. In fact, aren't the Camels still on their 20 year NESCAC probationary status? I mean, Conn isn't even as good a school as...........Denison. If Conn wins it again, I'm going to "wedding-crash" the Conn program banquet at Chili's.
Oh, W&L. I think the Generals are the only one I truly envy...because whether true or untrue, there's at least three to four other schools imo that would have had the same or better odds as W&L in terms of making three Final 4s in four years. The only silver lining for me? The one miss for W&L was due to a Sweet 16 loss in Gambier. Coming back to reality, it's one thing for Amherst to make three F4s in four years, but W&L? With two different coaches? Just an incredible accomplishment...and there is no question that W&L earned its way by navigating through a gauntlet draw (with the only mini-break being the unexpected exit of the Jumbos). Who knew that when W&L crushed Ferrum (I'm making this up off the top of my head) 2-0 in week three that W&L would be flying to Vegas. Another Mom knew. Or did she? Regardless, she got the last laugh, and now we're the ones eating the hats, lol. Hopefully she has moved on from milking the Oglethorpe win. Now Generals supporters can list Otterbein, Hopkins, Williams, and Dickinson, beating two hosts in back to back weekends. I'll be totally honest. I didn't think there was any way W&L was getting back to the Final 4. Two seasons from now no one will remember they maybe caught another minor break with Dickinson being awarded hosting. But any negative feelings and consternation I have towards W&L are easy to diagnose and even to own...if W&L makes three out of four Final 4s, then Kenyon and Hopkins deserved at least one trip.
I don't like the Final 4 at all, but it is a good one. I don't know yet if I'll watch or not. I had almost zero interest yesterday. But it is a remarkable set-up with a repeat of the Amherst vs Midd documentary drama series and a repeat of a 2021 Final 4 national semifinal. One of the cool things is there is every reason to believe that any of the four can win. At this very moment, all seem invincible, even though some of the margins to get there (think PKs) were small.
Good memory Paul Newman, on the hat eating ! I had forgotten :-).
As to whether I knew W&L would end up in the final 4 -- absolutely not! In fact, for most of the season I was pretty sure they weren't even getting to the tournament.
That said, the team that's playing now is a completely different one from early September. And that's not a surprise with a new coach coming in and having to get up to speed on each player, some players getting used to new positions etc.
The players on the team, though, have always had the finals in their sights, and always believed they would get here. I would say W&L is the underdog of Las Vegas, but the team is peaking at the right time, and the mental game goes a very long way. And they have that.
Quote from: Another Mom on November 25, 2024, 11:13:23 AMGood memory Paul Newman, on the hat eating ! I had forgotten :-).
As to whether I knew W&L would end up in the final 4 -- absolutely not! In fact, for most of the season I was pretty sure they weren't even getting to the tournament.
That said, the team that's playing now is a completely different one from early September. And that's not a surprise with a new coach coming in and having to get up to speed on each player, some players getting used to new positions etc.
The players on the team, though, have always had the finals in their sights, and always believed they would get here. I would say W&L is the underdog of Las Vegas, but the team is peaking at the right time, and the mental game goes a very long way. And they have that.
As a neutral, I notice that mental edge. They seem very composed and unbothered by the occasion of each game.
Just a couple of small points, and hopefully I'm out for a while.
Do not underestimate Reuben Burk and Conn Coll level of confidence.
If the PKs go differently against Hopkins (and most of us thought it would go differently) there's obviously a very different narrative. Again, tiny margins often yield outsized narratives. You have to have some good fortune. Kenyon GK doesn't misread an intended cross from 45 yards out into the box and Conn most likely is done. We're in a mini-competition about missing players. Hopkins was missing one. Apparently Conn and W&L were missing one. The Owls had an AA level striker who could not play, except for somehow contributing two massive goals two weekends in a row. Also was missing another couple of key starters. Imagine taking the W&L striker, Scoffone, Nuhu, etc off the pitch. Same thing for Donovan and UWEC. Injuries are the one variable I think we all wish would be eradicated (more so than OT or not, Golden Goal or not, more of less subbing, etc).
A lot of GK talk this season (and this tournament) per usual. Did want to shoutout to Joseph for W&L. Stellar play and I finally caught his postgame interview after Hopkins. Very impressive young man. Also shoutout to Prokos at Denison. Phenomenal games against Kenyon and others during the season, and again versus UMW. Now take your diploma and get out of here!
Something I want to add about Amherst is the lack of substitutions made. This is interesting for a team that goes complete high press to only make 4 subs on a Sunday double-header Elite 8 game..wow. Same for W&L with 5 subs.
In comparison, Midd and Conn both made 10 subs. Depth and fresh legs play a critical role at this stage
Can someone remind me where the playback link is for the games?
Quote from: SKUD on November 25, 2024, 12:20:01 PMCan someone remind me where the playback link is for the games?
https://www.ncaa.com/champs-pass
Quote from: mngopher on November 24, 2024, 05:18:04 PMQuote from: NEsoccerfan on November 24, 2024, 02:23:55 PMQuote from: mngopher on November 24, 2024, 12:36:00 PMAs a North region guy lost in all of this NESCAC love-hate I just want to point out that one of the biggest stories of the tournament really is that the 4th leading goalscorer of ALL TIME in D3 soccer (Nathan Donovan from UWEC) hasn't played a minute in this tournament and is done for the season. Yet, his team is in the final 8. If he played for a team further east this would be discussed more, but we in the north generally are stuffed into the same sectional and largely ignored. It's ok, we are used to it.
What a remarkable stat and kudos to both him and UWEC. While I'm well aware of the caveat that they pile on goals against some very questionable competition, you have to tip your hat to that much consistent production over four years. Needless to say I'll be cheering for them this afternoon.
A good example here of the lack of knowledge about north region teams. You are likely confusing them with UMAC member UW-Superior. UW Eau Claire has played a high quality schedule since starting their program in 2021.
My apologies. I thought I recalled an earlier post months ago talking about how a solid percentage of his/their goals over the last few years came against a few really bad teams.
QuoteSomething I want to add about Amherst is the lack of substitutions made. This is interesting for a team that goes complete high press to only make 4 subs on a Sunday double-header Elite 8 game..wow. Same for W&L with 5 subs.
In comparison, Midd and Conn both made 10 subs. Depth and fresh legs play a critical role at this stage
Like
Quote
More...
Sometimes the substitutions hurt Conn's game, you look at the bench and say WTF they are doing, Amherst has a way of keeping key players in for very long time, remember Oko had to signal to the sideline
that he needed to come out.
Quote from: camosfan on November 25, 2024, 01:38:05 PMQuoteSomething I want to add about Amherst is the lack of substitutions made. This is interesting for a team that goes complete high press to only make 4 subs on a Sunday double-header Elite 8 game..wow. Same for W&L with 5 subs.
In comparison, Midd and Conn both made 10 subs. Depth and fresh legs play a critical role at this stage
Like
Quote
More...
Sometimes the substitutions hurt Conn's game, you look at the bench and say WTF they are doing, Amherst has a way of keeping key players in for very long time, remember Oko had to signal to the sideline
that he needed to come out.
I would agree at times but hard to argue with the results.....think part of Conn's formula is that the sum is worth more than the individual parts.....Not sure they've had a Oko type individual player. Burk anchors the team with his back 4 (CB's rarely subbed) and rotates everyone else. Strong players like Jaran and Scoffone still command a ton of time.
Every year they seem to have someone different step up in the playoff run...
Quote from: Newenglander on November 25, 2024, 02:02:41 PMQuote from: camosfan on November 25, 2024, 01:38:05 PMQuoteSomething I want to add about Amherst is the lack of substitutions made. This is interesting for a team that goes complete high press to only make 4 subs on a Sunday double-header Elite 8 game..wow. Same for W&L with 5 subs.
In comparison, Midd and Conn both made 10 subs. Depth and fresh legs play a critical role at this stage
Like
Quote
More...
Sometimes the substitutions hurt Conn's game, you look at the bench and say WTF they are doing, Amherst has a way of keeping key players in for very long time, remember Oko had to signal to the sideline
that he needed to come out.
I would agree at times but hard to argue with the results.....think part of Conn's formula is that the sum is worth more than the individual parts.....Not sure they've had a Oko type individual player. Burk anchors the team with his back 4 (CB's rarely subbed) and rotates everyone else. Strong players like Jaran and Scoffone still command a ton of time.
Every year they seem to have someone different step up in the playoff run...
Flashbacks to MT Tshuma in 2021
Jaran imo has been one of the best Conn players for several years, including the national title year. At least one year his season was marred by injury (maybe when Conn didn't make the tourney the year after the title), and other Conn players have been more heralded. But he is very talented and dangerous. He is especially dangerous on free kicks. I don't think he was going for goal 45 yards out against Kenyon but certainly he should be scouted as though he always might go for goal regardless of distance.
One added note on the subbing (a topic that for whatever reason draws critics from both directions). Aside from "this is D3 and kids should play" as part of the reason to never go to only 3 subs and no re-entry, there is another huge argument especially if you have the talent.....a MUCH happier team. When the majority of the team plays you're generally going to have higher satisfaction and buy-in. And if you've been using a heavy substitution system all season then there shouldn't be a ton of disruption. That's all before raising the issues of fatigue, fresh legs, and a spark of energy. These players I assume at most of the programs live and socialize together as well. A very different dynamic than the professional leagues.
I'll say this about W&L, the team I saw at Sewanee and Covenant looked schematically challenged. It seemed like they knew how to play soccer and had the talent to play it well, but they struggled to know where on the field they needed to be, how to move off the ball, where to find each other when they had the ball, and, most importantly, how to track runners and cover back defensively.
Tactically they looked befuddled on both ends. I played a lot of years, I hold a D license from when it meant something, and I started on my C before my last kid gave up the game.
That makes me far from an expert, but I should be able to identify the formation a team is playing in base and when they are in proper shape and out of shape. For the life of me I had a few guesses what they were trying to do, but they were so out of sort, especially against Covenant, I had no solid idea.
The team that played Williams and Dickinson? It's a lot harder to identify from D3 camera angles, so I'm not entirely sure of the base, but the awareness of space, lanes, runs, and tracking defensively, especially, were spot on. There was no room in the middle third or attacking third for either of those teams.
I don't know how W&L will fare against arguably the hottest team in the tournament. Everything at this stage depends on the slightest factors. But I do know the progress of this team, as a team, as a tactical unit, has come farther than any team I can remember.
A lot of that is the talent. It is immense as it is for any team at this stage, but the mental growth through the season has been so impressive.
As a first year coach he must be thrilled that not only did he get his message across to the players, but they have been able to take that message and grow and become successful.
Regardless what happens in Vegas, I'm super proud of this team. They faced quite a challenge adapting to a new coach and they have overcome that challenge.
Would each of the final four teams characterize their season as a great success if they were to lose in the semi-final? Time, history, and expectations surely have an impact on these answers, right?
If you were to tell the W&L players in September after starting the season 1-3-0 that they'd be in Vegas, I'm not sure they'd have believed it. But this is also a team that had gone to two of the previous three FFs so expectations were high.
Conn College had great success on the nat'l stage in 2021, however, they ended this season as the 6-seed in the nescac and had no idea if they'd even play in the big dance (until going on to win the conference tourney).
Midd have played in three NCAA quarterfinals in the last four seasons, but are moving on to only their second ever FF (nat'l champs in '07). They've also been fantastic all season and are the highest remaining seed (I think?)
For Amherst, I don't have much to say that EnmoreKitten hasn't already said over the last few weeks. I'll leave it others to decide who wins off the field, but there's no doubt that the Mammoths have dominated on the field and in the national tournament for quite some time.
I think we can all can agree that each of these teams SHOULD look back at their run as a great success. It takes ultimate focus, skill, a lot of grinding and a fair amount of luck. I mean, look at Tufts - arguably the best team all season and upset by Buffalo St on day 2.
The question is not should they call it a success, it's will they.
Personally, I'd say shut up dustin you idiot of course it's a fantastic success for all 4.
Correction: Father, son and holy PN confirmed that CC was never at risk of getting snubbed from tourney.
PN, phenomenal observation from afar. Jaran has been such a key for the Camels for the last four years. Was a starter on the 21 national championship team. Missed the latter half of both the 22 and 23 seasons with injuries. But his steadiness on the ball and set piece delivery has always been spot on. I just watched the replay of the Conn - Kenyon game and his goal was a set piece delivered at just the right height, pace, and angle to really trouble the keeper.
Also, I tried to comment on this on Sunday, but if you watch the penalties, the video is clear that the trash talk was started by the Kenyon PK keeper. I was there and heard this from some of the actual participants, but I wanted to confirm it with the video. The Kenyon keeper clearly says something to Conn's first kicker. The ref delays the start of penalties to point and warn the keeper. After converting, the Conn penalty taker looks to have said something back to him. After the second round, you can't see if the Conn player came off the bench to taunt, the video is too focused on the goal to pick that up.
Quote from: Johnny231 on November 25, 2024, 10:07:02 AMDoes anyone have any insight on the other side of the bracket? I haven't had the opportunity to watch either Connecticut College or Washington and Lee play?
This seems like a good time to make my firts post on the new version of the Message Boards. I am similar to Paul Newman and I have found Connecticut College to be my favorite team beside my Polar Bears. I live in an area that aloows me to attend way too many Nescac games live in person and have seen Conn a lot of times this year. It is impressive how much they pass the ball around and more so since their field is the worst in the Nescac.
I think Conn's strength is their defensive line and the defensive midfielder. Those players are excellent. Most of the games I saw them play in person they did not give up goals but also did not score. It is interesting that now that they are scoring they also are letting some in.
I am proud of Bowdoin's season this year. It was a tough one and they did all they could. Next year I think they will challenge for the Nescac.
MT, I have appreciated your posts.
I don't know who started what and I don't care. Imo coaching comes in here. Wall and Burk both have the power to tell their players "keep your mouth closed, let your shot or saves speak for themselves, and whatever you do don't let give the other side extra motivation." Now Silvester did his own mindgames as well, and I doubt that was contingent on whatever he thought of the Kenyon GK behavior. For Kenyon, that game cannot go to PKs. Conn's record is probably historic. Their time will come when they go 0 for 3, but until then, expect them to be flawless with a save or two (or miss) almost guaranteed.
I think you were the one that mentioned stats. The shots were much closer up until Duratovic scored with 13+ left. Kenyon never had another shot....13 minutes of regulation and 20 minutes of OT. They subbed a decent amount although they were missing a critical midfielder and played a kid that has barely played, so I don't think it was primarily fatigue. I think they were deflated immediately after Alem's goal as he was motionless and obviously re-injured his hamstring. I personally was thinking they can probably see this through while understanding it was far from over, but I was also thinking the Owls would not have Duratovic the next day against Denison or in the F4 if fortunate enough to get there. They needed him full strength and playing 60-70 minutes. Think Nathan Donovan. I mean he scored two weeks in a row with the opposition knowing full well that he ahd not been playing and that he was Kenyon's most dangerous threat. That's special. Anyway, stats say Kenyon didn't have another shot after their goal in the 77th minute. I thought Dujakovich had a shot with a pretty decent look around the six yard box with 4-5 seconds left in regulation. That shot isn't in the stats so maybe I dreamed that. Then after Jaran scored (and I don't think he was trying to score there) Kenyon was obviously further deflated. Conn had leveled and the Owls had to get through 11 minutes of regulation and 20 minutes of OT without their best offensive threat. After Duratovic scored and had to be assisted off the field, shots were 7-0 for Conn. As for Conn's goals, neither was what I would term a routine stop for Kenyon's GK, but they were both very saveable and those are plays that have to be made...at least one out of the two had to be saved. Kenyon's GK had a very solid to good career in Gambier, but before the game I thought it could come down to the GKs...and of course Silvester is one of the best, as exemplified with PK shootout stops in the national title game. Hard for me to feel anything other than Kenyon had every chance to win that game (and should have), but I also in real time and now felt they would have no shot at winning the title if they advanced without Duratovic.
Quote from: jknezek on November 25, 2024, 03:26:47 PMRegardless what happens in Vegas, I'm super proud of this team. They faced quite a challenge adapting to a new coach and they have overcome that challenge.
This is why they are a very dangerous team. Playing with house money. As we've almost to a person observed on this forum, they were in a bit of shambles to start the season (by their standards) and the team I watched beat my Jays and then progress to the F4 is incredibly solid in the back and springs a decent counter. I was worried about their ability to score until the put 3 past Dickinson.
The caveat there is that once you unlock Dickinson, they let a few games get completely away from them (Gave up 3 or more to Muhlenberg, Gettysburg [4-3 win)], the Jays x2 and The Generals.)
Quote from: MunnyTim on November 25, 2024, 04:00:59 PMPN, phenomenal observation from afar. Jaran has been such a key for the Camels for the last four years. Was a starter on the 21 national championship team. Missed the latter half of both the 22 and 23 seasons with injuries. But his steadiness on the ball and set piece delivery has always been spot on. I just watched the replay of the Conn - Kenyon game and his goal was a set piece delivered at just the right height, pace, and angle to really trouble the keeper.
Also, I tried to comment on this on Sunday, but if you watch the penalties, the video is clear that the trash talk was started by the Kenyon PK keeper. I was there and heard this from some of the actual participants, but I wanted to confirm it with the video. The Kenyon keeper clearly says something to Conn's first kicker. The ref delays the start of penalties to point and warn the keeper. After converting, the Conn penalty taker looks to have said something back to him. After the second round, you can't see if the Conn player came off the bench to taunt, the video is too focused on the goal to pick that up.
I started that post by saying I wasn't going to say anything and, really, this is the reason why. I wasn't there and didn't hear what was said. Period.
There's no disputing the bench warning for coming onto the field. The announcers said that clear as day (I watched it live).
But, overall, in terms of who started it... I absolutely cop to not knowing and in hindsight should've just left it alone.
I can't recall if it was this thread, but someone mentioned that Conn was at risk of not even making the tournament by landing at the 6th seed in NESCAC. That is false. NPI was way too high. It is interesting to go back and look at team's seasons. Right now it seems like Conn and W&L could never lose again, but right before Conn went on their NESCAC tourney run they got run off their own field by Wesleyan who led the Camels 3-0 before Conn got one back (on a PK). They also tied Hamilton 0-0 at home and all of the stats were dead even.
I will say that if Conn and W&L go to PKs, I don't think there is any clear advantage. Both have won very recent PK games, and neither GK is likely to be thrown off his game. Up here in the New England and the Northeast, most of us aren't familiar with many particular players for even a major program like W&L, but from what I've seen Joseph for W&L is as good as anyone in the country. If someone asked me today, my predictions would be Conn winning in regulation or OT, and W&L prevailing if indeed it gets to PKs.
Paul Newman, I'm just a little worried, most likely with absolutely no justification, that you might almost be becoming that most rare of beasts, except for those who genuinely don't care, an Ampartial.
PN - couple of things. You did NOT imagine one last chance for the Owls. I think it was right at the end of OT and it was a true chance. Hit on the ground right at Silvester. Not sure why it was not recorded in the stats, but that had this observer's heart in his throat.
I completely agree with comments on trash talking. I think it is unnecessary and takes away from the game. I normally watch games from a bit of a distance (20+ yards) so I can see the full field. UMW has their field set up so the fence along the sideline with the stands is no more than five yards from the touch line (making long throws from that side of the field a challenge with almost no run up space). Standing that close to the pitch, one can really observe the level of talk/commentary between the players. It's a fair amount.
I concur, the Owls were very, very good on Saturday. Really controlled the midfield for much of the game. I don't know if it was fatigue or a bit of being deflated, but the last 10 of regulation and almost all of the 20 min of OT were controlled by the Camels. Prior to that, the Owls had the better of it.
Lastly, you are correct about the Camels prior to the NESCAC tournament. I was in attendance when Wesleyan prevailed 3-1. Wes was much better that day. So, anything can happen coming up in Vegas.
Quote from: EnmoreCat on November 25, 2024, 06:39:33 PMPaul Newman, I'm just a little worried, most likely with absolutely no justification, that you might almost be becoming that most rare of beasts, except for those who genuinely don't care, an Ampartial.
EnmoreCat, your comment/query deserves a better response than I feel up to now, as after caring really, really hard for 2.5+ months and having the plug pulled abruptly the embers of my soul are barely flickering. Plus, the Celtics are about to play with Kristaps Porzingis due back in the lineup tonight (and just watch him tear an ACL in the his first game back from a different rare but major injury).
I am definitely not the biggest Amhater. I feel like I probably say everything I've ever said here at least once a year, so I assume you've previously read that I back in the day (meaning for me 2012-2015ish) I actually was a prime Amherst defender. I don't hate Amherst as much as most of your NESCAC cousins, and even though I've never felt an affinity for Serpone's style, I do appreciate his quirkiness and passion. And, again, there is no doubt about the extent of the success. I also don't have any particular issues with Amherst as an institution. I obviously get what Amherst is and represents culturally. I don't dislike Amherst as an institution, although I am increasingly interested in what is going to happen to these culturally (and academically) elite schools (both in NESCAC and outside NESCAC). Of course with four of these types of schools in the F4, you wouldn't conclude that there are cracks in the foundation of academic cultural elitism, and as I've admitted in the past, I was one of the worst elitists and wannabee-elitists. Over the past several years as I see what is happening in this country, I am very unsure about what the future is gonna bring, and I'm actually not sure what I want to see happen. I think some of it is niche and some a mirage, but if so to any extent, still a very powerful niche/mirage. I love lists and making lists (like this week thermal underwear options and I'm discovering bamboo haha), and I was TOTALLY into my kids' college lists, what schools they could get in and which they couldn't, and trying to strike the perfect balance between "best school you can access" along with "best fit among schools above a certain USNEWS skewed threshold." A big part of me thinks I got it all wrong, even though all worked out quite well in the end. My kids would never have been accepted at Amherst. My soccer-playing kid got in Colby and several other NESCACs, and he was within a hair of going to Colby which had been his dream school. I've told that story before and won't repeat it here, except to say that even though I think he likely would have flourished at Colby Kenyon turned out to be the marginally better fit for him and his personality. My daughter did very well going to University of Rochester after I personally had her choosing Macalester, Bryn Mawr, or NYU. I used to help a few kids at our local public high school, and there was one kid who was choosing between Rochester and Holy Cross. I got a call from his mother while I was at work one day and she told me her son had just been called out of class to learn he had been accepted to Amherst off the waitlist. He and his family could not have been more thrilled. And of course I was thrilled.
Good luck in two weeks. I have absolutely no idea who is going to prevail (and to be honest I don't care very much).
PN, I thought you were on sabbatical?
Not much to add except at the end of the ODAC regular season even after their undefeated run W&L had an NPI of 35 which I believe (as in not 100% sure so don't flame me) they were on the bubble or close enough to it. So while Conn College may not have needed results in their conference post season, W&L (probably) did. Of course they went on to win the ODAC tournament so NPI became moot.
For the inaugural NPI in early October, W&L was 67. At the end of conference play they were 35, and of course finished with an NPI of 18. Pretty remarkable run.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 25, 2024, 07:56:25 PMQuote from: EnmoreCat on November 25, 2024, 06:39:33 PMPaul Newman, I'm just a little worried, most likely with absolutely no justification, that you might almost be becoming that most rare of beasts, except for those who genuinely don't care, an Ampartial.
EnmoreCat, your comment/query deserves a better response than I feel up to now, as after caring really, really hard for 2.5+ months and having the plug pulled abruptly the embers of my soul are barely flickering. Plus, the Celtics are about to play with Kristaps Porzingis due back in the lineup tonight (and just watch him tear an ACL in the his first game back from a different rare but major injury).
I am definitely not the biggest Amhater. I feel like I probably say everything I've ever said here at least once a year, so I assume you've previously read that I back in the day (meaning for me 2012-2015ish) I actually was a prime Amherst defender. I don't hate Amherst as much as most of your NESCAC cousins, and even though I've never felt an affinity for Serpone's style, I do appreciate his quirkiness and passion. And, again, there is no doubt about the extent of the success. I also don't have any particular issues with Amherst as an institution. I obviously get what Amherst is and represents culturally. I don't dislike Amherst as an institution, although I am increasingly interested in what is going to happen to these culturally (and academically) elite schools (both in NESCAC and outside NESCAC). Of course with four of these types of schools in the F4, you wouldn't conclude that there are cracks in the foundation of academic cultural elitism, and as I've admitted in the past, I was one of the worst elitists and wannabee-elitists. Over the past several years as I see what is happening in this country, I am very unsure about what the future is gonna bring, and I'm actually not sure what I want to see happen. I think some of it is niche and some a mirage, but if so to any extent, still a very powerful niche/mirage. I love lists and making lists (like this week thermal underwear options and I'm discovering bamboo haha), and I was TOTALLY into my kids' college lists, what schools they could get in and which they couldn't, and trying to strike the perfect balance between "best school you can access" along with "best fit among schools above a certain USNEWS skewed threshold." A big part of me thinks I got it all wrong, even though all worked out quite well in the end. My kids would never have been accepted at Amherst. My soccer-playing kid got in Colby and several other NESCACs, and he was within a hair of going to Colby which had been his dream school. I've told that story before and won't repeat it here, except to say that even though I think he likely would have flourished at Colby Kenyon turned out to be the marginally better fit for him and his personality. My daughter did very well going to University of Rochester after I personally had her choosing Macalester, Bryn Mawr, or NYU. I used to help a few kids at our local public high school, and there was one kid who was choosing between Rochester and Holy Cross. I got a call from his mother while I was at work one day and she told me her son had just been called out of class to learn he had been accepted to Amherst off the waitlist. He and his family could not have been more thrilled. And of course I was thrilled.
Good luck in two weeks. I have absolutely no idea who is going to prevail (and to be honest I don't care very much).
Paul Newman, I've learnt much more in here than I have ever felt offended by, so on balance I find these boards rewarding, aside from the moments when my antipodean attempts at humour (widely) miss the mark. If you had told me ten years ago that I would be spending time writing in support of a small liberal arts college in Western MA, I would have dismissed you as a crank, yet here I am. I actually do want to write a proper post about the general merits of D3, as I am now a big fan, but will save that for after whatever gets to stay in Vegas.
I understand that Amherst isn't everyone's cup of tea and whilst I can truthfully say I don't appreciate everyone's candour, I certainly respect their right to opine. Your comments about what higher education in the US faces, resonate with me and I find myself much more interested in the prospects for what will happen there, than in Australia! I read today on Bloomberg that a number of D3 colleges, not ones that we typically discuss here, have implemented quite dramatic cuts in tuition fees, perhaps economists at the respective schools have been waxing lyrically about the concept of supply & demand. In any event, it's clear that schools all over are dealing with not just demographic issues, but also product ones.
Thanks for your good wishes, it will be no surprise that I do care about the final outcome, but also appreciate the calibre of what lies in Amherst's path.
Quote from: EnmoreCat on November 26, 2024, 02:03:12 AMI understand that Amherst isn't everyone's cup of tea and whilst I can truthfully say I don't appreciate everyone's candour, I certainly respect their right to opine. Your comments about what higher education in the US faces, resonate with me and I find myself much more interested in the prospects for what will happen there, than in Australia! I read today on Bloomberg that a number of D3 colleges, not ones that we typically discuss here, have implemented quite dramatic cuts in tuition fees, perhaps economists at the respective schools have been waxing lyrically about the concept of supply & demand. In any event, it's clear that schools all over are dealing with not just demographic issues, but also product ones.
Thanks for your good wishes, it will be no surprise that I do care about the final outcome, but also appreciate the calibre of what lies in Amherst's path.
The schools that are implementing "dramatic cuts in tuition" are largely just rationalizing what most in the US do - have a stated very high tuition and immediately offer basically anyone who gets in a 50%+ discount in "scholarships" or "grants". In the 2023-24 academic year, the average discount rate for first-time, full-time freshmen was 56.1% according to NACUBO (https://www.nacubo.org/Press-Releases/2024/Annual-NACUBO-Tuition-Discounting-Study-Finds-Financial-Aid-Awards-on-the-Rise) (the National Association of College and University Business Officers organization which tracks a great deal of college financial information in the US). The previous year it was 54.8%; given trends it would be reasonable to suspect it to close in on 60% in the current school year or the next. Who wouldn't be happy with getting $30K off on that $50K published tuition?
Not everyone gets these discounts; the well-off who attend the better-known schools will generally pay a higher net rate. One reason small schools are so eager to recruit athletes is they (or their families) are often willing to pay more to attend a school if Johnny or Jane can continue to play the sport(s) they love. The small schools that are granting reduced net tuition to all are willing to overlook that additional revenue to get more people interested in the school and hopefully through the doors, though whether that will work in the long run is to be seen.
Finally, in the US (like many other countries) the number of young people available is coming down due to lower birth rates. This, on top of families placing a lower value on a formal education from colleges, means most all colleges are scrambling to define their value equation and recruit from the smaller cohort they see each year.
As a neutral who enjoyed watching the Red Devils this season, I wanted to highlight 4 players in particular who were enjoyable to watch:
Saul Iwowo - 16 goals 9 assists -- savvy, silky, deceptive. A special player who can create something out of nothing. At 6'3" he has incredible athleticism...reminds me of 2019 All-American Forward from St. Mary's College, Khalid Balogun, who was 6'4" and had similar skill with the ball.
Ethan Jarden - 13 goals 8 assists -- A perfect partner in crime to Iwowo. Dickinson's playmaker. Has a nose for getting in the right spots and finishing chances.
Nicholas Dwamena - 5 goals 5 assists -- his playstyle and physique reminds me of Brighton's Tyriq Lamptey. Such a fun, dynamic player to watch down the outside.
Timi Omoniwa -- 7 goals 3 assists -- At times, Omoniwa was just as tricky to deal for defenses with as Iwowo. A product of the Houston Dynamo academy.
Well done Red Devils on a great season.
Quote from: Mr_November on November 26, 2024, 12:04:41 PMAs a neutral who enjoyed watching the Red Devils this season, I wanted to highlight 4 players in particular who were enjoyable to watch:
Saul Iwowo - 16 goals 9 assists -- savvy, silky, deceptive. A special player who can create something out of nothing. At 6'3" he has incredible athleticism...reminds me of 2019 All-American Forward from St. Mary's College, Khalid Balogun, who was 6'4" and had similar skill with the ball.
Ethan Jarden - 13 goals 8 assists -- A perfect partner in crime to Iwowo. Dickinson's playmaker. Has a nose for getting in the right spots and finishing chances.
Nicholas Dwamena - 5 goals 5 assists -- his playstyle and physique reminds me of Brighton's Tyriq Lamptey. Such a fun, dynamic player to watch down the outside.
Timi Omoniwa -- 7 goals 3 assists -- At times, Omoniwa was just as tricky to deal for defenses with as Iwowo. A product of the Houston Dynamo academy.
Well done Red Devils on a great season.
The Centennial better be on alert for next year... None of those dudes graduate.
Iwowo and Jarden are Juniors
Dwamena and Omoniwa are first years.
Dickinson is going to terrorize the Centennial next year. In addition to the four already mentioned, I've been impressed by Westin Fryberger, Daniel Spataro, and Luke Finkielstein. Fryberger and Spataro are first years, Finkielstein is a junior.
One area that could perhaps use some improvement is goalkeeping. During the regular season game between Dickinson and Hopkins this year, Gavin Marr (another first year) played the second half and was markedly better than the starter.
The Red Devils have a very skewed age structure on their team - lots of excellent juniors and first years, far fewer seniors and sophomores.
Quote from: Hopkins Walk-On on November 26, 2024, 01:20:06 PMDickinson is going to terrorize the Centennial next year. In addition to the four already mentioned, I've been impressed by Westin Fryberger, Daniel Spataro, and Luke Finkielstein. Fryberger and Spataro are first years, Finkielstein is a junior.
One area that could perhaps use some improvement is goalkeeping. During the regular season game between Dickinson and Hopkins this year, Gavin Marr (another first year) played the second half and was markedly better than the starter.
The Red Devils have a very skewed age structure on their team - lots of excellent juniors and first years, far fewer seniors and sophomores.
Another thing to watch out for re: Red Devils goalkeeping is if Nick Potter (brother of Middlebury Assistant Coach Ben Potter) is healthy for his senior season. He started a handful of games as a sophomore and would have had the most returning starts among the keepers on the 2024 roster, but an injury kept him out all year.
IMO I put this Dickinson team on par with this year's Vassar or Wesleyan.
I like their coach, met him when he worked at Lafayette, he is in a position to attract a lot of talent
They came a long way in a short time.
The Dickinson fans were lovely (even the chirping from the sidelines was good natured and harmless). My son said the team seemed like they were great guys. Hats off to Dickinson.
congrats to you and the team!
Going off of the conversation in the liberty league chat, if W&L were in the Nescac where would they fall year after year?
Quote from: Garden12 on November 27, 2024, 09:36:09 AMGoing off of the conversation in the liberty league chat, if W&L were in the Nescac where would they fall year after year?
Would finish first most years by at least 2 games.
They would lose every away game due to travel and win every home game due to travel.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 27, 2024, 10:00:35 AMThey would lose every away game due to travel and win every home game due to travel.
Why? Why? Why did ya have to go there???
This forum has been a lot of fun this season.
Happy Thanksgiving to all!
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 27, 2024, 10:00:35 AMThey would lose every away game due to travel and win every home game due to travel.
Obviously the same applies to the Final Four :-)
Quote from: College Soccer Observer on November 27, 2024, 12:22:17 PMQuote from: Hopkins92 on November 27, 2024, 10:00:35 AMThey would lose every away game due to travel and win every home game due to travel.
Obviously the same applies to the Final Four :-)
With travel distance, weather differences, and jet lag largely equalized, the difference might be which coaches can effectively keep their players away from the strip the longest!
Hey everyone, first time posing here. Had a son play in the NESCAC a few years back. Heard about the boards and would follow here and there. However, been following recently as the NESCAC got 8 bids this year and has 3 teams in the final 4! Thought of an idea and wanted to share it here.
When it comes to professional sports, fans and analysts alike love ranking teams and debating their greatness—whether it's professional sports dynasties or college powerhouses. In the spirit of the Final 4 and Thanksgiving why not spark a fun conversation in the D3 soccer space. Every single year one team emerges from hundreds of others and is crowned champions. Their stories are filled with incredible talent, grit, and championship moments.
So, I thought it would be a fun idea to try and rank the last 10 NCAA Division III champions. These teams played in different years, under different circumstances, and faced unique challenges. Some dominated with raw talent and tactical precision, while others relied on resilience and timely performances to claim their titles. Comparing across different seasons requires some subjectivity, but that's what makes these debates so engaging.
Hoping this can spark some fun conversations and bring back memorable moments, players, teams, and coaches from the last 10 years that we can be grateful to have experienced.
Here's a quick look at the last 10 NCAA Division III men's soccer champions and their records:
• 2023: St. Olaf (20-3-3)
• 2022: University of Chicago (22-0-1)
• 2021: Connecticut College (19-4-1)
• 2019: Tufts (20-2-2)
• 2018: Tufts (18-0-3)
• 2017: Messiah (24-2-0)
• 2016: Tufts (14-5-2)
• 2015: Amherst (17-1-2)
• 2014: Tufts (17-2-4)
• 2013: Messiah (24-1-1)
Feel free to use whatever system or factors you would like such as raw talent, S.O.S., dominance, adversity, legacy etc. Every single one of these teams was obviously great as their seasons culminated in a national championship, so I expect this to be challenging!
1) Messiah 2013
2) Chicago 2022
3) Tufts 2018
4) Amherst 2015
5) Tufts 2019
6) Tufts 2014
7) Messiah 2017
8) Conn College 2021
9) St Olaf 2023
10) Tufts 2016
Hope it was a great thanksgiving.
W&L vs the evil empire.
What is your pick?
I appreciate the entertainment education, and while I can see the entertainment bonfire roaring, I thought I'd show my appreciation by tossing some kindling into the blaze....
Rate Final Four combatants from best to last in the following categories...
Best Academic Institution
Best Coach/Coaching Staff
Best GK
Best Striker
Best CB/CB Combo
Best Playmaking Midfielder
Most Attractive Style of Play
Most Resilient Team
Best Past Decade
Best Coaching Tree
Most Impressive (Toughest) Road to Final Four
Best Partisan Poster
Best Alumni/Support Base
Best Town/City Where School Located
Best Home Pitch
Best Mascot/Nickname
Most Feared Mascot (Generals, Mammoth, Camel, Panther)
***List is fluid so please add categories as you like
******BONUS ESSAY COMPONENT.....Should Vassar become the 12th member of NESCAC? Why? Or Why not?
That's a great list, PN. Let's see if anyone bites...
And, BTW, Vassar would be a good academic and geographic fit. That said, adding Hamilton was awkward from a travel standpoint, but it did expand the conference schedule across most team sports to an even 10 teams. 11 opponents would be an awkward number.
Vassar has no football team. They would be a huge outlier in the NESCAC. The better question is, "would Vassar start a football team for a NESCAC invite?" I suspect it would be a very strong consideration.
Quote from: SKUD on November 29, 2024, 10:46:24 AMHope it was a great thanksgiving.
W&L vs the evil empire.
What is your pick?
W&L vs the field is a no brainer. Take the field. But I think they match up well with NESCAC schools. I'm going Conn sadly. The best team Middlebury has beaten this year is Williams. They went 0-3-1 against Tufts, Amherst and Conn (0-1-1). They haven't shown they can win yet. Of course 2 more ties might do it anyway.
Amherst went 1-2-1 against said opponents. 1-0-1 against Conn. While the win came early, it's still an advantage. Conn knocked them out of the NESCAC on PKs, so two games, no wins for Conn yet.
W&Ls best win is Dickinson. Or maybe Lynchburg but the Red Devils closed them out. And Dickinson just isn't a NESCAC quality team this season. They had nice pieces, but a strong, big, fast defense was going to shut them down... Ahem, NESCAC.
Conn... Go with momentum. They have it. All the confidence in the world right now. Enough skill, obviously, to back it up. I see the ties, the bad end of regulation season loss is a long time ago. So is the early loss to Amherst that was partially avenged. 11 goals so far in the tournament. They are riding high and I'm not sure W&L has the offense to go with them if they give up a goal or two. Not sure anyone can keep them off the board.
I think it will be an Amherst Conn final. Don't think W&L has it to beat Conn, and not sure if Middlebury can really step into this game and rise to the occasion.
SC.
Speaking of momentum, W&L is riding momentum just as much or more than Conn. This semi should be dubbed The Momentum Bowl.
The other semi is a classic Green Bay Packers vs Chicago Bears old-school backyard brawl. Three yards and a cloud of dust. Not entirely fair to Midd, or even to Amherst, but let's call this one The Backyard Brawl (at Caeser's Palace with hype video narrated by John Facenda.
Calling it right now...if W&L and Conn go to PKs the shootout will live up to billing as greatest PK shootout in D3 men's soccer NCAA tournament history.
All that said, I'll stick with Conn for a win in regulation or OT. I'll go against my better instincts and pick Midd to finally get by Amherst although also would be stunning to see the Mammoths lose.
Winner...Conn...Jake Creus gets GW in national final.
Darkhorse F4 MVP pick...Will Joseph, W&L.
****If you are too young to get the Facenda reference, google him and listen to at least 60 seconds of him riffing on the Frozen Tundra or the bruising collisions of Dick Butkus...
Quote from: northman on November 29, 2024, 07:08:10 PMThat's a great list, PN. Let's see if anyone bites...
They won't, northman.
A lot of big cattle, no hat or big hat, no cattle....however that goes.
Quote from: jknezek on November 29, 2024, 08:00:09 PMVassar has no football team. They would be a huge outlier in the NESCAC. The better question is, "would Vassar start a football team for a NESCAC invite?" I suspect it would be a very strong consideration.
I agree Vassar should and probably has considered something like starting football as a way into NESCAC. But don't forget Conn with no football. I don't see football as necessarily a deal breaker...and in the end Vassar may want to identify with some of the (at least perceived) less athletics-obsessed academic elites more so than the more traditional, button downed BB/finance NESCACs. Like Swat, Haverford, Carleton, Grinnell, Macalester, Oberlin...and even Reed.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 30, 2024, 10:14:17 AMQuote from: jknezek on November 29, 2024, 08:00:09 PMVassar has no football team. They would be a huge outlier in the NESCAC. The better question is, "would Vassar start a football team for a NESCAC invite?" I suspect it would be a very strong consideration.
I agree Vassar should and probably has considered something like starting football as a way into NESCAC. But don't forget Conn with no football. I don't see football as necessarily a deal breaker...and in the end Vassar may want to identify with some of the (at least perceived) less athletics-obsessed academic elites more so than the more traditional, button downed BB/finance NESCACs. Like Swat, Haverford, Carleton, Grinnell, Macalester, Oberlin...and even Reed.
If you go back only 20 years Vassar was what Bard is today. Sports are just extracurricular activities and they don't care if they win or lose (mostly lose).
They put some $ and elbow grease into it and raised themselves up to kind of lower third NESCAC all-sports level. I think they could be even better if they want to be.
IMO Skidmore is a slightly better fit for NESCAC #12 if it ever comes to it, because of geography and sport sponsorship.
I know we covered from a competition perspective, but can we talk about what an absolutely boneheaded idea it was to host this tournament final in Las Vegas from a logistics point of view? Everyone has to fly, and the hotels are nearly all sold out or in the $1000+ range for a single night. It seems there is a 300k+ person convention/rodeo in town the same weekend (which is easily knowable) on top of Amazon, and others. That's quite a commitment for families that want to see their kids play in the final four, not to mention the scores of young alums who otherwise would attend, but are being shut out by cost.
The NCAA also always had a travel rule that required the semi-final losers to vacate their hotels after their loss. Are they enforcing that here, where everyone is required to fly?
Don't mind me, I'm just salty for having to spend my Christmas budget on red-eye flights and hotels.
Ha. I've bemoaned this several times. If it was anywhere in the mid Atlantic I'd be on my way Friday. But there is no way I'm flying to Vegas. I suspect the crowd will be even sparser than usual for these games.
I hate when D3 does stuff like this.
Quote from: Caz Bombers on November 30, 2024, 10:47:15 AMQuote from: PaulNewman on November 30, 2024, 10:14:17 AMQuote from: jknezek on November 29, 2024, 08:00:09 PMVassar has no football team. They would be a huge outlier in the NESCAC. The better question is, "would Vassar start a football team for a NESCAC invite?" I suspect it would be a very strong consideration.
I agree Vassar should and probably has considered something like starting football as a way into NESCAC. But don't forget Conn with no football. I don't see football as necessarily a deal breaker...and in the end Vassar may want to identify with some of the (at least perceived) less athletics-obsessed academic elites more so than the more traditional, button downed BB/finance NESCACs. Like Swat, Haverford, Carleton, Grinnell, Macalester, Oberlin...and even Reed.
If you go back only 20 years Vassar was what Bard is today. Sports are just extracurricular activities and they don't care if they win or lose (mostly lose).
They put some $ and elbow grease into it and raised themselves up to kind of lower third NESCAC all-sports level. I think they could be even better if they want to be.
IMO Skidmore is a slightly better fit for NESCAC #12 if it ever comes to it, because of geography and sport sponsorship.
Great post. Thanks. Love Skidmore, great school, and I see your points there. However, the only NESCACs who imo would support Skid might be Conn and Trinity. If going the Skidmore route, then I think Union enters the fray, a school basically a sibling or very close first cousin to Conn/Trinity. Union imo fits NESCAC from both the Conn-Trinity vibe and the athletics vibe. For traditional NESCACers, I think Vassar would be the pick while biting their tongue about the artsy, culturally more open scene. Not a perfect analogy, but think Oberlin vs Kenyon/Denison/DePauw.
Prediction...within next 5-10 years, one or more NESCACs will drop football.
Quote from: FBALLISLIFE on November 30, 2024, 10:53:05 AMI know we covered from a competition perspective, but can we talk about what an absolutely boneheaded idea it was to host this tournament final in Las Vegas from a logistics point of view? Everyone has to fly, and the hotels are nearly all sold out or in the $1000+ range for a single night. It seems there is a 300k+ person convention/rodeo in town the same weekend (which is easily knowable) on top of Amazon, and others. That's quite a commitment for families that want to see their kids play in the final four, not to mention the scores of young alums who otherwise would attend, but are being shut out by cost.
The NCAA also always had a travel rule that required the semi-final losers to vacate their hotels after their loss. Are they enforcing that here, where everyone is required to fly?
Don't mind me, I'm just salty for having to spend my Christmas budget on red-eye flights and hotels.
It is boneheaded - and not the first time the topic has been raised, though I'm not sure if it was this thread or elsewhere.
The NCAA solicits bids for all its championships. It may be that the Las Vegas bid was the only one it received for this year's championships, which is unlikely but possible. Much more likely was that they offered some kind of financial incentives the other bidders couldn't match, because the NCAA has to pay to put the championship teams/staffs up and fly them all there. About the only advantage to having it in Vegas is they won't have to deal with snow.
There are other folks better at finding data like this, but iirc 70-80% of the NESCAC student bodies participate in intercollegiate athletics. Maybe that number is too high, but relative to some of the less athletics dominant or more hybrid elite schools, I think the percentages are significantly higher at NESCACs compared to some of their non-NESCAC academic elites. There are exceptions like W&L and Davidson that most closely mimic NESCACs in terms of an athletics focus, but some of the other top LACs have student bodies where half or more of the enrollment classes will never watch D3 soccer, football, swimming, etc.
Quote from: jknezek on November 30, 2024, 11:11:41 AMHa. I've bemoaned this several times. If it was anywhere in the mid Atlantic I'd be on my way Friday. But there is no way I'm flying to Vegas. I suspect the crowd will be even sparser than usual for these games.
I hate when D3 does stuff like this.
You'd also be late. Set your clock for 8 pm (central) on THURSDAY, not Friday. I'll wave to you from the stands.
Quote from: SimpleCoach on November 30, 2024, 07:05:16 AMI think it will be an Amherst Conn final. Don't think W&L has it to beat Conn, and not sure if Middlebury can really step into this game and rise to the occasion.
SC.
Middlebury can very well lose this match, but it won't be because they "can't step into this game and rise to the occasion." What a terrible take.
The Panthers have lost one game all year, in the NESCAC title game. And this is the Final Four. The last four teams standing, every one of which has had to "step into a game and rise to the occasion" to get here. To question any one of these teams on that "metric" is head-shakingly bad.
I echo what @futballislife wrote -- lodging super tight in Las Vegas. Also, sent you a PM @futballislife.
No predictions from me!
Rate Final Four combatants from best to last in the following categories...
Answered the few I could, and here's an interesting question:
Without looking up the stats, which of the Final Four teams has the most yellow cards?
And which team has a red card?
Best Academic Institution
Tough one--by selectivity it would be Amherst, Midd, W&L, Conn. But Amherst has such a distinctive academic style --open curriculum and tutorials--that it isn't for everyone.
Best Coach/Coaching Staff
Tie for the good rep of Midd staff and the wow factor of W&L going to FF in first year.
Best GK
That could be almost a four-way tie. None of the teams are disadvantaged in this category, and while the obvious call is Conn's Silvestri, the others just may not have had their moment yet.
Most Attractive Style of Play
Conn & Midd, don't know enough about W&L style now
Most Resilient Team
W&L
Best Past Decade
W&L + Amherst
Best Coaching Tree
Can only be Midd!
Best Town/City Where School Located
Washington & Lee (Lexington), close second Middlebury, VT
Best Home Pitch
Tie between W&L and Midd
Best Mascot/Nickname
Camels
Most Feared Mascot (Generals, Mammoth, Camel, Panther)
Panthers but who knows, Southern Generals could be fearsome!
Quote from: Bucket on November 30, 2024, 12:15:13 PMQuote from: SimpleCoach on November 30, 2024, 07:05:16 AMI think it will be an Amherst Conn final. Don't think W&L has it to beat Conn, and not sure if Middlebury can really step into this game and rise to the occasion.
SC.
Middlebury can very well lose this match, but it won't be because they "can't step into this game and rise to the occasion." What a terrible take.
The Panthers have lost one game all year, in the NESCAC title game. And this is the Final Four. The last four teams standing, every one of which has had to "step into a game and rise to the occasion" to get here. To question any one of these teams on that "metric" is head-shakingly bad.
Understandable take on your part but unnecessarily defensive. Of the four, and sure, it's close, Midd impresses the most in terms of a "prove it" mode. I saw the comment as more about Midd's recent history rather than an analysis of how great the team is this year. Midd has been very, very good to excellent for several years, but they've got their quasi-curse rival staring them in the eyes. Tremendous pressure on Midd to win one of these matches against Amherst.
LibbyMoore, excellent effort!
I know this isn't your first year, but still, congratulations, your overall superb performance this season has earned you a spot on the PaulNewman All-Rookie Poster Team.
Midd has won a title before
Amherst has won one as well and maybe has the most pressure on them because honestly, Amherst could have 3 or 4 titles now if they just had a few more clutch moments like Tuffts had with less time on top.
Conn won a title very recently and going for their second.
W+L has been coming and I am sure maybe has loads of neutrals pulling for them.
Any Champion 🏆 who survives will be a worthy champion and more importantly will set up their program for more titles to come.
Many of us don't have teams in it anymore but we are all so proud of these great athletes... especially the seniors.
This is a culmination of great preparation... not 4 years ago, but when since they were 4.
Given the grousing about hosting the DIII championships in Las Vegas, I thought you might be interested in a few fun facts on the relationship between the teams and the area:
1. Not a single player on any of the four schools' rosters hails from Nevada.
2. According to the data that I could find, there are barely any students in any of the schools from Nevada. Basically, they have a few students per class at most. If the schools do any recruiting on this trip, be prepared for a statement in the next alumni bulletin about how the number of students from Nevada has increased by a double digit percentage. Heck, if anyone from Nevada working at the games or in the hotels learns the names of any of the schools and remembers it after the teams leave, it will be the most successful marketing campaign in Nevada in the school's history. You probably could walk down the street and ask people if they know what NESCAC is and what it does and the best they can come up with is that it sounds like a national security agency and that's only if you give them a hint that it's an acronym.
3. Given Las Vegas' location in the extreme southwestern tip of the state, it may be unfair to focus on Nevada even though a large percentage of the Nevada population resides in the Las Vegas metro area. It's closer to Arizona and California than to many parts of Nevada. So, let's examine the rosters and student populations from those two states.
a. Arizona
Not a single player from any of the four schools hails from Arizona
There are a few more students from Arizona at each school than from Nevada, but it's still tiny. Amherst, for example, has 4 students enrolled in the Class of 2028 from Arizona and 2 from Nevada. W&L reports only 4% of its Class of 2028 from the entire West
b. California
All four schools have players from California: Amherst (6), Middlebury (5), Conn College (2), W&L (1). For Conn and W&L, the percentage of students overall from California is in the single digits, while it's larger for Amherst and Midd.
That doesn't mean their families are nearby though. The closest big cities are Los Angeles and San Diego, which are about 4 and 5 hours away respectively, but only a few players are from that area. The players from Northern California are more like 8-10 hours away by car. And since the semifinals are on Thursday afternoon, anyone driving has to either leave late the night before to avoid afternoon traffic or contend with morning traffic the day of, which could make the drives even longer.
As far as other events in Las Vegas, the big one is "Cowboy Christmas 2024" which is from Dec. 5-14. If the NCAA is hoping to attract any randoms already in Vegas, though, I'm putting my money on people at the American Academy of Pediatrics conference
Quote from: Kuiper on November 30, 2024, 02:19:05 PMAs far as other events in Las Vegas, the big one is "Cowboy Christmas 2024" which is from Dec. 5-14. If the NCAA is hoping to attract any randoms already in Vegas, though, I'm putting my money on people at the American Academy of Pediatrics conference
There are only 650 attendees to the American Academy of Pediatrics meeting. I'd say the safer bet are the 30,000 attendees of Marijuana Business Daily - MJBizCon 2024 (https://mjbizconference.com/).
Quote from: Ejay on November 30, 2024, 02:31:28 PMQuote from: Kuiper on November 30, 2024, 02:19:05 PMAs far as other events in Las Vegas, the big one is "Cowboy Christmas 2024" which is from Dec. 5-14. If the NCAA is hoping to attract any randoms already in Vegas, though, I'm putting my money on people at the American Academy of Pediatrics conference
There are only 650 attendees to the American Academy of Pediatrics meeting. I'd say the safer bet are the 30,000 attendees of Marijuana Business Daily - MJBizCon 2024 (https://mjbizconference.com/).
All Middlebury alums? ;D
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 29, 2024, 12:28:45 PMI appreciate the entertainment education, and while I can see the entertainment bonfire roaring, I thought I'd show my appreciation by tossing some kindling into the blaze....
Rate Final Four combatants from best to last in the following categories...
Best Academic Institution
Amherst... Midd and W&L is a tie for me in part because W&L already is "ranked" very, very high and would be higher if in the Northeast/New England, and very much on par with Midd and Bowdoin. Conn is a distant 4th in this rarified air.
Best Coach/Coaching Staff
Burk, Serpone, Elias, Shabazz...with caveat that this one is tight but Burk has that Shapiro aura.
Best GK
W&L, Conn, Midd, Amherst...Mammoths have 3 GKs with at least 5 starts...current starter least of the three.
Best Striker
Amherst, W&L, Conn, Midd
Best CB/CB Combo
Amherst/Midd (tie); Conn/W&L tie
Best Playmaking Midfielder
Conn, Amherst/Midd (tie), W&L
Most Attractive Style of Play
W&L/Conn (tie), Midd, Amherst
Most Resilient Team
Conn/W&L/Amherst/Midd (four-way tie)
Best Past Decade
Amherst, Conn, W&L, Midd
Best Coaching Tree
Midd
Most Impressive (Toughest) Road to Final Four
W&L, Conn, Midd, Amherst
Best Partisan Poster
Enmorecat, Jknezek, Bucket, TimMunny???
Best Alumni/Support Base
Amherst, Midd, Conn, W&L
Best Town/City Where School Located
Amherst, W&L/Midd (tie), Conn
Best Home Pitch
Midd, W&L, Amherst/Conn (tie)...NONE would make round of 32 for fields.
Best Mascot/Nickname
Gotta say, pretty boring here...W&L, Conn, Midd, Amherst.
Most Feared Mascot (Generals, Mammoth, Camel, Panther)
Generals, Panthers, Mammoths, Camels
See answers above. Other categories that come to mind are Best Supersub and Best Bench. Noticed that Amherst at least in last game played the majority of starters 90 minutes with limited subs in both number used and minutes.
Quote from: Ron Boerger on November 30, 2024, 11:41:46 AMQuote from: FBALLISLIFE on November 30, 2024, 10:53:05 AMI know we covered from a competition perspective, but can we talk about what an absolutely boneheaded idea it was to host this tournament final in Las Vegas from a logistics point of view? Everyone has to fly, and the hotels are nearly all sold out or in the $1000+ range for a single night. It seems there is a 300k+ person convention/rodeo in town the same weekend (which is easily knowable) on top of Amazon, and others. That's quite a commitment for families that want to see their kids play in the final four, not to mention the scores of young alums who otherwise would attend, but are being shut out by cost.
The NCAA also always had a travel rule that required the semi-final losers to vacate their hotels after their loss. Are they enforcing that here, where everyone is required to fly?
Don't mind me, I'm just salty for having to spend my Christmas budget on red-eye flights and hotels.
It is boneheaded - and not the first time the topic has been raised, though I'm not sure if it was this thread or elsewhere.
The NCAA solicits bids for all its championships. It may be that the Las Vegas bid was the only one it received for this year's championships, which is unlikely but possible. Much more likely was that they offered some kind of financial incentives the other bidders couldn't match, because the NCAA has to pay to put the championship teams/staffs up and fly them all there. About the only advantage to having it in Vegas is they won't have to deal with snow.
add the fact that it's a Thursday semi adds to the logistical pain......
Quote from: Bucket on November 30, 2024, 12:15:13 PMQuote from: SimpleCoach on November 30, 2024, 07:05:16 AMI think it will be an Amherst Conn final. Don't think W&L has it to beat Conn, and not sure if Middlebury can really step into this game and rise to the occasion.
SC.
Middlebury can very well lose this match, but it won't be because they "can't step into this game and rise to the occasion." What a terrible take.
The Panthers have lost one game all year, in the NESCAC title game. And this is the Final Four. The last four teams standing, every one of which has had to "step into a game and rise to the occasion" to get here. To question any one of these teams on that "metric" is head-shakingly bad.
Shakingly bad indeed. What was I thinking.
SC.
2024 - 17-1-4
Lost to Conn in the NESCAC Final 3-1
2023 - 15-2-4
Lost to Tufts 2-1 in the NESCAC Semis
Lost to Amherst 1-0 in the NCAA Quarterfinals... and I was rooting for Middlebury in his one.
2022 - 10-5-3
Lost to Amherst in OT 1-0 in the NESCAC Semis
Lost to Rowan 3-2 in the NCAA First Round
2021 - 13-5-1
Lost to Tufts in the NESCAC Semi's 1-0
Lost to Amherst in the NCAA Semi's 1-0
2020 - No Season
2019 - 13-5-3
Lost to Tufts in the NESCAC Finals 2-1
Lost to RPI in the NCAA 2nd Round in PKs.
Quote from: SimpleCoach on November 30, 2024, 04:16:54 PMQuote from: Bucket on November 30, 2024, 12:15:13 PMQuote from: SimpleCoach on November 30, 2024, 07:05:16 AMI think it will be an Amherst Conn final. Don't think W&L has it to beat Conn, and not sure if Middlebury can really step into this game and rise to the occasion.
SC.
Middlebury can very well lose this match, but it won't be because they "can't step into this game and rise to the occasion." What a terrible take.
The Panthers have lost one game all year, in the NESCAC title game. And this is the Final Four. The last four teams standing, every one of which has had to "step into a game and rise to the occasion" to get here. To question any one of these teams on that "metric" is head-shakingly bad.
Shakingly bad indeed. What was I thinking.
SC.
2024 - 17-1-4
Lost to Conn in the NESCAC Final 3-1
2023 - 15-2-4
Lost to Tufts 2-1 in the NESCAC Semis
Lost to Amherst 1-0 in the NCAA Quarterfinals... and I was rooting for Middlebury in his one.
2022 - 10-5-3
Lost to Amherst in OT 1-0 in the NESCAC Semis
Lost to Rowan 3-2 in the NCAA First Round
2021 - 13-5-1
Lost to Tufts in the NESCAC Semi's 1-0
Lost to Amherst in the NCAA Semi's 1-0
2020 - No Season
2019 - 13-5-3
Lost to Tufts in the NESCAC Finals 2-1
Lost to RPI in the NCAA 2nd Round in PKs.
Are we talking history or this year's team?
LOL.
Yes, yes, you always say you'll never trust Middlebury until they do . . . what?
Make several elite 8s? Oh wait, they've done that. Still can't trust.
Earlier this year it was handedly beat a non-conference team. Oh, they did that, still can't trust.
Made a Final Four this year. Still can't trust. Let's see them get to a Finals. Then you still won't trust.
My hot take? Midd wins a national title and SC says, "Well, let's see if they can win back-to-back."
PN was right in his responses to me: can't argue with anything he said, and I was overly defensive and shouldn't have validated this bizarre obsession with Middlebury's "inadequacies."
I'll take Midd's year (no matter what happens this week), as well as its history—recent or decades' long—considering they are in a tier of success that has eluded about 97 percent of the programs in all of Division III soccer.
With regard to academic rigor, I'll cite the US News rankings, which of course always spark a controversy. Amherst is ranked near the top, Midd and W&L are right next to each other, and Conn is another level behind. That said, each school has its own approach toward the parameters for recruiting "student athletes".
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-liberal-arts-colleges?_sort=rank&_sortDirection=asc
Very clever, northman. You often remind me of myself...something I want to get into the narrative flow but not quite sure how to go about it...so I sneak it in under the rug but noticeable enough that most folks will take a peak. I've tried to do this less over the years, but I still do it.
To be fair, even if we take US News seriously, if you go through the last decade, Midd and Bowdoin have been side by side and I'm almost certain there have been years when Midd was one or two spots above Bowdoin and other years tied or a spot or two behind. Outside of the top three, there has been quite a bit of movement year to year. For example, this is the first year I think Davidson was ranked higher than Midd. Last year Davidson got knocked for whatever reason and now is about where they've usually fallen with some years in the single digits. W&L used to be a few spots behind Davidson, then basically even, and probably for at least a couple of years landed higher than Davidson. I wouldn't put one above the other personally. Just as I wouldn't put Bowdoin or Midd ahead of each other. I would venture to guess that most folks who are into these kinds of elitism comparisons put Williams and Amherst together, and then Midd and Bowdoin together. And I think most would put Hamilton, Colby, and Bates together. Wesleyan and Tufts are harder to place because they are the most different than the others in the conference, and so most would default those two marginally between Midd/Bow and Hamilton/Colby/Bates.
Protip although hopefully most know this....an artificially produced "ranking" does not mean that a kid will get a better education at the higher ranked school or even that the better ranked school is a better school. I went to Davidson which as long as I've followed this stuff has maintained a ranking anywhere from 15-25 spots above Kenyon. My son could have attended Davidson. He went to Kenyon...and I'm glad he did. Indeed, Kenyon would have been a much better school for me.
W&L plunged about 10 spots a year or two ago. Something about students eligible for Pell Grants and some other changes to criteria.
As far as I know, it's the least favorable of the major rankings to W&L. Not that it matters really to any part of this discussion.
All 4 are amazingly strong schools. I suspect I would not get into W&L anymore based on their current criteria, but I'm glad I was able to spend my 4 years in Lexington and I've never regretted it.
One thing I'll say about D3 soccer is that it is very much driven by high academic schools. Look at the round of 32, look at the private schools. Lynchburg is probably the lowest ranked school of the private bunch, the vast majority being private.
It's not like this in all D3 sports, football is one example, but it is definitely an advantage in soccer to recruit based on academics.
I can't believe University of Hawaii didn't tender for the Final Four, that would have made life much easier...I'm expecting a slightly different cultural experience to the one in Salem/Roanoke last year.
Quote from: Bucket on November 30, 2024, 04:54:08 PMQuote from: SimpleCoach on November 30, 2024, 04:16:54 PMQuote from: Bucket on November 30, 2024, 12:15:13 PMQuote from: SimpleCoach on November 30, 2024, 07:05:16 AMI think it will be an Amherst Conn final. Don't think W&L has it to beat Conn, and not sure if Middlebury can really step into this game and rise to the occasion.
SC.
Middlebury can very well lose this match, but it won't be because they "can't step into this game and rise to the occasion." What a terrible take.
The Panthers have lost one game all year, in the NESCAC title game. And this is the Final Four. The last four teams standing, every one of which has had to "step into a game and rise to the occasion" to get here. To question any one of these teams on that "metric" is head-shakingly bad.
Shakingly bad indeed. What was I thinking.
SC.
2024 - 17-1-4
Lost to Conn in the NESCAC Final 3-1
2023 - 15-2-4
Lost to Tufts 2-1 in the NESCAC Semis
Lost to Amherst 1-0 in the NCAA Quarterfinals... and I was rooting for Middlebury in his one.
2022 - 10-5-3
Lost to Amherst in OT 1-0 in the NESCAC Semis
Lost to Rowan 3-2 in the NCAA First Round
2021 - 13-5-1
Lost to Tufts in the NESCAC Semi's 1-0
Lost to Amherst in the NCAA Semi's 1-0
2020 - No Season
2019 - 13-5-3
Lost to Tufts in the NESCAC Finals 2-1
Lost to RPI in the NCAA 2nd Round in PKs.
Are we talking history or this year's team?
LOL.
Yes, yes, you always say you'll never trust Middlebury until they do . . . what?
Make several elite 8s? Oh wait, they've done that. Still can't trust.
Earlier this year it was handedly beat a non-conference team. Oh, they did that, still can't trust.
Made a Final Four this year. Still can't trust. Let's see them get to a Finals. Then you still won't trust.
My hot take? Midd wins a national title and SC says, "Well, let's see if they can win back-to-back."
PN was right in his responses to me: can't argue with anything he said, and I was overly defensive and shouldn't have validated this bizarre obsession with Middlebury's "inadequacies."
I'll take Midd's year (no matter what happens this week), as well as its history—recent or decades' long—considering they are in a tier of success that has eluded about 97 percent of the programs in all of Division III soccer.
@SimpleCoach: There is a world of difference between Midd circa 2019 and now. The 2019 team was very hard to score on, but they had a quite limited offense. They went 9-3-8 (this in an era where they actually played overtime). They beat Conn 2-1 in OT and lost to Tufts 2-1 in OT. That team finished 6th in the NESCAC and only made it to the NCAA's by virtue of run to the NESCAC championship game, beating Conn on PKs and then shutting out Amherst at Amherst before losing to a late Tufts goal in the final. Failing to advance past the second round on PKs at RPI is not exactly choking. Midd's co-leading scorers that year had 4 goals apiece and the team only scored 28 all year while allowing 10. In 2021, they scored 29 and allowed 9, with Jordan Saint-Louis leading the way with 8. They lost 1-0 to Tufts in the NESCAC semi before beating Oneonta, then Franklin and Marshall at Franklin and Marshall, then John Carroll before dropping a 1-0 to Amherst. 2022 they definitely underachieved in the post season, as any one on that team would tell you. 2023--undefeated regular season, including defeating Tufts 3-0. They lost by a goal to Tufts in the NESCAC semis, and then beat Hopkins in 2nd round and Cortland State in 3rd round at Amherst before losing again to the hosts. 2024--another undefeated regular season and lost in NESCAC final 3-1 in a game that could easily have gone either way.
Relative to the other NESCAC powers of the last decade, I can understand why you might think Midd has not held up its end of the bargain. It should be noted, however, that Tufts and Amherset have hosted on a regular basis, and 2023 was the first time Midd got to host. This was partially due to the dominance of the field hockey squad, who just won their 7th consecutive National Championship, and often took priority over men's soccer. Tufts hosted the first weekend in 2024, two weekends in 2023, two weekends in 2021, and one in 2019. Amherst hosted a weekend in 2024, the 2nd weekend in 2023, two weekends in 2022, the 2nd weekend in 2021, and the 2nd weekend in 2019. So Tufts and Amherst have hosted 6 weekends over that span, while Midd has hosted 3 (all in the last two years). The last two NCAA quarterfinals between Amherst and Midd were at Amherst.
Back to the decision to hold the Final Four in Las Vegas . . .
It is costing parents $5,000 to go support their team, between lodging and airfare. There are parents and other supporters that just cannot afford that! I know of people that wanted to come but now cannot because of the cost.
I cannot believe the NCAA intentionally wanted to harm non-wealthy families and supporters, but that's exactly what they've done. Is there any official channel through which I can give this feedback?
Quote from: Another Mom on December 01, 2024, 07:46:37 AMBack to the decision to hold the Final Four in Las Vegas . . .
It is costing parents $5,000 to go support their team, between lodging and airfare. There are parents and other supporters that just cannot afford that! I know of people that wanted to come but now cannot because of the cost.
I cannot believe the NCAA intentionally wanted to harm non-wealthy families and supporters, but that's exactly what they've done. Is there any official channel through which I can give this feedback?
Here is the NCAA's feedback site: https://www.ncaa.com/contact-us
Good luck.
Quote from: Ron Boerger on December 01, 2024, 07:52:29 AMQuote from: Another Mom on December 01, 2024, 07:46:37 AMBack to the decision to hold the Final Four in Las Vegas . . .
It is costing parents $5,000 to go support their team, between lodging and airfare. There are parents and other supporters that just cannot afford that! I know of people that wanted to come but now cannot because of the cost.
I cannot believe the NCAA intentionally wanted to harm non-wealthy families and supporters, but that's exactly what they've done. Is there any official channel through which I can give this feedback?
Here is the NCAA's feedback site: https://www.ncaa.com/contact-us
Good luck.
You Texas (and Trinity) folks must share a hearty laugh (or cry) -- along with your brethren from CA, CO, and the Pac NW -- when you see us East Coasters up in arms about travel and travel costs. I mean, thank God Trinity, CMS, Pac Luth, Colorado Coll, etc families all have money pouring out of their ears...and in the unlikely event of harm caused at least you're comforted knowing the harm was
unintentional.
On Midd (and yeah, Freddy, no more than a few more posts I promise), much ado about nothing. Nobody said Midd ever choked. I think all but the "If you don't have a title in your program history you can never be one of us" folks, even if they're clinging to something from 30 years ago, recognize that a program with multiple Sweet 16s and Elite 8s over the past six to eight years is one of the most elite D3 soccer programs. And yes, I've heard once or twice about 2007.
The truth of the matter is that among these four remaining outstanding programs, Midd is the only one that had not made a Final Four during a very healthy period for the program, and now they are indeed facing their arch-nemesis. I'm sure most of us are rooting for Midd in that one at a minimum, so I really don't think there is any ill will being directed at Midd.
These comparisons are impossible, but Midd has been among the top 2-3 teams all season. Incredibly impressive year. A strong case can be made for Mary Wash still being the best team of 2024...and for a while there Tufts could legitimately argue about being #1, #2, or #3...and of course Amherst is always lurking outside the shower curtain, BUT...Midd has hardly spent a single day of 2024 being viewed as anything lower than #3 or #4 in the entire country, and I would guess that most here would rate Midd as the second-best squad. I personally would vote for Midd as the #2 team of the 2024 season. Lofty assessments and expectations add a good dose of pressure. Raising the issue of Midd needing a bit more of a "break through" moment compared to the other three all-star programs just doesn't resonate as even mildly unfair. We'd be saying the exact same thing about Hopkins, Kenyon, Cortland, F&M, Trinity. Let's look at it from one other perspective. Out of Tufts, Amherst, Conn, Williams, and Midd, which one of those five hasn't made a national final in the past decade?
Just FYI, here are the host cities for the next 3 Championships.
2025 Salem, VA
2026 Columbus, OH
2027 Pittsburgh, PA
Quote from: Ejay on December 01, 2024, 09:47:37 AMJust FYI, here are the host cities for the next 3 Championships.
2025 Salem, VA
2026 Columbus, OH
2027 Pittsburgh, PA
I mean there really isn't a great solution to this. I bemoan Las Vegas because it's an area with 0 D3 support and history. That's the bigger rub to me. But I sure hope it's warm, because the next 3 could be awfully cold. And that's not great either.
Sadly the best areas are not great D3 bastions. Southern Cal is better than FL from my point of view. But it will cost to host there because everything is expensive. Florida is useless to D3, always has been. Though at least it's recruitable, unlike Vegas.
Salem, Winston-Salem, Greensboro, Chattanooga, Atlanta, the edge of D3 and no weather guarantees. Same with Texas.
It's kind of a bummer. But yeah, of everything mentioned, I like Vegas least. It doesn't even have cheap going for it as a destination, and that should have been the minimum it had.
I do get Salem is a pain to get to if you need to fly. Columbus won't be too much better. Pittsburgh will be best of those. But weather odds are pretty much the reverse order.
When I've gone to Salem, I've flown to DC and dealt with the 3+ hour (if lucky) drive to get into town. Lots and lots of flights to pick from, unlike the closer regional in Roanoke (or BWI, which is an hour further).
But then again, I'm one of those Texas guys who is used to driving several hours.
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 01, 2024, 09:17:48 AMOn Midd (and yeah, Freddy, no more than a few more posts I promise), much ado about nothing. Nobody said Midd ever choked. I think all but the "If you don't have a title in your program history you can never be one of us" folks, even if they're clinging to something from 30 years ago, recognize that a program with multiple Sweet 16s and Elite 8s over the past six to eight years is one of the most elite D3 soccer programs. And yes, I've heard once or twice about 2007.
The truth of the matter is that among these four remaining outstanding programs, Midd is the only one that had not made a Final Four during a very healthy period for the program, and now they are indeed facing their arch-nemesis. I'm sure most of us are rooting for Midd in that one at a minimum, so I really don't think there is any ill will being directed at Midd.
These comparisons are impossible, but Midd has been among the top 2-3 teams all season. Incredibly impressive year. A strong case can be made for Mary Wash still being the best team of 2024...and for a while there Tufts could legitimately argue about being #1, #2, or #3...and of course Amherst is always lurking outside the shower curtain, BUT...Midd has hardly spent a single day of 2024 being viewed as anything lower than #3 or #4 in the entire country, and I would guess that most here would rate Midd as the second-best squad. I personally would vote for Midd as the #2 team of the 2024 season. Lofty assessments and expectations add a good dose of pressure. Raising the issue of Midd needing a bit more of a "break through" moment compared to the other three all-star programs just doesn't resonate as even mildly unfair. We'd be saying the exact same thing about Hopkins, Kenyon, Cortland, F&M, Trinity. Let's look at it from one other perspective. Out of Tufts, Amherst, Conn, Williams, and Midd, which one of those five hasn't made a national final in the past decade?
Everything you say is fair and reasonable, generous even. I was reacting more to the poster and his history of comments re: Middlebury than anything else. My apologies.
Quote from: Another Mom on December 01, 2024, 07:46:37 AMBack to the decision to hold the Final Four in Las Vegas . . .
It is costing parents $5,000 to go support their team, between lodging and airfare. There are parents and other supporters that just cannot afford that! I know of people that wanted to come but now cannot because of the cost.
I cannot believe the NCAA intentionally wanted to harm non-wealthy families and supporters, but that's exactly what they've done. Is there any official channel through which I can give this feedback?
I totally get this, but it's not like there aren't any teams in the middle and western parts of the country who aren't equally disadvantaged whenever the Final Four is located in the east. There was a stretch from 2009-2015 where the final four was hosted in the middle of the country (2009-2013 in San Antonio and 2014-2015 in Kansas City) as kind of a nod to this notion that it's a national tournament. The only time the Final Four has ever been hosted at a site anywhere west of the central time zone was in 1991 at UC San Diego. So, while I think NCAA logistics and finances are probably a bigger factor, I don't think the NCAA is unaware of the issue, but they probably recognize that it goes both ways and it's both more equitable and good for business (in terms of expanding awareness of DIII soccer) to spread things out every once in awhile. Cal Lutheran, after all, won the women's national championship last year in Roanoke and many (if not most) of its families couldn't afford to be there.
The bigger complaint is probably the choice of a city and state that is literally devoid of DIII soccer. UNC Greensboro has hosted the DIII Final Four more than any other site and is no longer in DIII, but it at least used to be in DIII and there are schools in the general vicinity and schools that are currently in or might be considering a move to DIII, so it might draw neutrals to watch. That's not really true in Vegas. Nevada State University, a 22 year-old small state school in nearby Henderson, Nevada, has proposed (https://nevadasportsnet.com/news/reporters/nevada-state-university-wants-to-launch-athletic-department-supported-by-student-fee)starting an athletics program and the Board of Regents is scheduled to vote on the funding for the athletics program at its meeting on Dec. 4-5 (https://nshe.nevada.edu/html/wp-content/uploads/file/BoardOfRegents/Agendas/2024/12-dec-mtgs/BOR1224.pdf), but the proposal is not guaranteed to pass and they intend to start with track and field and women's flag football only, so that would be a particularly long play if the NCAA had foreseen this when it selected Las Vegas unless they have reason to believe that the NAIA schools in Arizona and California might join together with Nevada State to form a new DIII conference.
I guess it is not only the location that's an issue, it is the surprising lack of accomodations available at short notice. At this point the hotel rooms available in Las Vegas are between $500 - $1000/night, or, you have to go pretty far outside the city. Admittedly I have not investigated every single option, but broadly this is accurate. All the usual chains (Marriott, Hilton, Hyatt etc) are fully booked.
Short notice? I don't understand 3 weeks ago (when every team selected for tourney was known) there were plenty of rooms all over Vegas for reasonable prices. There are still
Rooms available for $261 a night.
Why didn't you book everything early, as it all can be cancelled? What am I missing?
Quote from: Bucket on December 01, 2024, 11:48:42 AMQuote from: PaulNewman on December 01, 2024, 09:17:48 AMOn Midd (and yeah, Freddy, no more than a few more posts I promise), much ado about nothing. Nobody said Midd ever choked. I think all but the "If you don't have a title in your program history you can never be one of us" folks, even if they're clinging to something from 30 years ago, recognize that a program with multiple Sweet 16s and Elite 8s over the past six to eight years is one of the most elite D3 soccer programs. And yes, I've heard once or twice about 2007.
The truth of the matter is that among these four remaining outstanding programs, Midd is the only one that had not made a Final Four during a very healthy period for the program, and now they are indeed facing their arch-nemesis. I'm sure most of us are rooting for Midd in that one at a minimum, so I really don't think there is any ill will being directed at Midd.
These comparisons are impossible, but Midd has been among the top 2-3 teams all season. Incredibly impressive year. A strong case can be made for Mary Wash still being the best team of 2024...and for a while there Tufts could legitimately argue about being #1, #2, or #3...and of course Amherst is always lurking outside the shower curtain, BUT...Midd has hardly spent a single day of 2024 being viewed as anything lower than #3 or #4 in the entire country, and I would guess that most here would rate Midd as the second-best squad. I personally would vote for Midd as the #2 team of the 2024 season. Lofty assessments and expectations add a good dose of pressure. Raising the issue of Midd needing a bit more of a "break through" moment compared to the other three all-star programs just doesn't resonate as even mildly unfair. We'd be saying the exact same thing about Hopkins, Kenyon, Cortland, F&M, Trinity. Let's look at it from one other perspective. Out of Tufts, Amherst, Conn, Williams, and Midd, which one of those five hasn't made a national final in the past decade?
Everything you say is fair and reasonable, generous even. I was reacting more to the poster and his history of comments re: Middlebury than anything else. My apologies.
Please, no apologies needed. You're doing what you do. I'm doing what I do. SC does what he does.
Entertainment....if we were launching a sitcom, we already know exactly what roles all of the more active posters would play. At this point, it's not that difficult to predict who will jump in where and with what response on most any topic. Pretty much like clockwork.
Quote from: SKUD on December 01, 2024, 12:25:53 PMShort notice? I don't understand 3 weeks ago (when every team selected for tourney was known) there were plenty of rooms all over Vegas for reasonable prices. There are still
Rooms available for $261 a night.
Why didn't you book everything early, as it all can be cancelled? What am I missing?
I guess I am an idiot for not booking as soon as W&L made the Tournament. Should every one of the 64 teams that made the Tournament also have booked rooms then? In any case, I guess there are a lot of us idiots out there, as I've heard from recent alums who decided they wanted to come, along with current families.
Quote from: SKUD on December 01, 2024, 12:25:53 PMShort notice? I don't understand 3 weeks ago (when every team selected for tourney was known) there were plenty of rooms all over Vegas for reasonable prices. There are still
Rooms available for $261 a night.
Why didn't you book everything early, as it all can be cancelled? What am I missing?
A bit unrealistic. 64 teams x 20 players is 1280 hotel rooms for one room per parent reserved. Both men's and women's teams makes for 2560 hotel rooms.
The game is actually in Paradise Nevada, about 15 minutes in no traffic from downtown. Not much listed in Paradise itself, but certainly not 2560 rooms. The Strip would suck that up no problem if there weren't a huge convention going on.
But I guarantee if 2500 more hotel rooms, spiralling out from Paradise were reserved a few weeks ago, they would have gotten very expensive, very fast. As they were cancelled it probably would have come down some, but the Strip is abnormally expensive right now for reasons unrelated to a soccer tournament.
In other words, staying on the far side of Paradise from the strip you can probably find those Holiday Inns for $150-200 a night, but the other side, toward the Strip, wouldn't have mattered one little bit 3 weeks ago vs today.
Quote from: SKUD on December 01, 2024, 12:25:53 PMShort notice? I don't understand 3 weeks ago (when every team selected for tourney was known) there were plenty of rooms all over Vegas for reasonable prices. There are still
Rooms available for $261 a night.
Why didn't you book everything early, as it all can be cancelled? What am I missing?
First, it's not accurate. Yes, the Motel 6 was available, but most the more mid-range chains were pretty outrageous when I was looking at hotels before the Elite Eight games were played. Flights from DC, ATL, CLT were also well in excess of $800 for red-eyes.
Second, it's the recent alums and wider communities that really miss out from this. At the Final Four in Greensboro, there were two W&L alums in their 80s who had played for a national championship in their day and made the trek, in addition to scores of young alums who made it work. (Most) parents will find a way, but the atmosphere will be more like an ECNL tourney than a college championship.
Third, the NCAA could have acted like any other convention and blocked rooms and made them available to travelers from the schools. They will do that for the revenue sports. I do recognize this would not be expected, but with the convention calendar very public and overbooked, it would have been appropriate foresight. There's also a large NCAA wrestling tourney the same weekend, and they blocked off hotels.
Finally, the idea that supporters are to be faulted for not booking in advance and cancelling is kind of absurd. As it is, my reservation is non-cancellable, but even if it were...
As far as giving feedback, don't hold your breath.
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 01, 2024, 09:17:48 AMOn Midd (and yeah, Freddy, no more than a few more posts I promise), much ado about nothing. Nobody said Midd ever choked. I think all but the "If you don't have a title in your program history you can never be one of us" folks, even if they're clinging to something from 30 years ago, recognize that a program with multiple Sweet 16s and Elite 8s over the past six to eight years is one of the most elite D3 soccer programs. And yes, I've heard once or twice about 2007.
The truth of the matter is that among these four remaining outstanding programs, Midd is the only one that had not made a Final Four during a very healthy period for the program, and now they are indeed facing their arch-nemesis. I'm sure most of us are rooting for Midd in that one at a minimum, so I really don't think there is any ill will being directed at Midd.
These comparisons are impossible, but Midd has been among the top 2-3 teams all season. Incredibly impressive year. A strong case can be made for Mary Wash still being the best team of 2024...and for a while there Tufts could legitimately argue about being #1, #2, or #3...and of course Amherst is always lurking outside the shower curtain, BUT...Midd has hardly spent a single day of 2024 being viewed as anything lower than #3 or #4 in the entire country, and I would guess that most here would rate Midd as the second-best squad. I personally would vote for Midd as the #2 team of the 2024 season. Lofty assessments and expectations add a good dose of pressure. Raising the issue of Midd needing a bit more of a "break through" moment compared to the other three all-star programs just doesn't resonate as even mildly unfair. We'd be saying the exact same thing about Hopkins, Kenyon, Cortland, F&M, Trinity. Let's look at it from one other perspective. Out of Tufts, Amherst, Conn, Williams, and Midd, which one of those five hasn't made a national final in the past decade?
Thanks @PaulNewman. For the record, in the last ranking of the regular season, I have Middlebury 2nd in the country. (https://d3soccer.fans/simplecoach-mens-top-25/)
SC.
Airbnb has several affordable options.
Looks like there is no great solution on a host site for the championship.
I think any field not made
of grass should be ruled out as a site for NCAAs.
IMO Fields like Hopkins/ Wis EC (lined for 4-6) are an embarrassment to the sport and should never be be permitted to host unless they can find a nearby proper grass field.
It's really the worst weekend for them to have the tournament there. Not only is there wrestling and conventions, but George Strait is also playing at Allegiant that weekend which is bringing in a ton of people. There really isn't anything you can say to defend the decision to have it there.
I'm hearing whispers that the SimpleCoach Media Empire is using its enormous wealth and influence to negotiate the development of a soccer-only tournament venue right outside of Raleigh-Durham. Sure it'll require flights, but the facility will include hotels, restaurants, and 8 grass fields using a cross of Bluegrass, Kentucky Bluegrass, Featherbed Bent, and Northern California Sinsemilla. The amazing thing about this stuff is that you can play 4 back-to-back games on it in the afternoon, take it home and just get stoned to the bejeezus-belt that night on this stuff.
Caddyshack reference FTW.
Rate Final Four combatants from best to last in the following categories...
Best Academic Institution
Amherst
Best Coach/Coaching Staff
Amherst
Best GK
W&L? Maybe. He's had a heck of a tournament.
Best Striker
Amherst
Best CB/CB Combo
Middlebury
Best Playmaking Midfielder
No idea
Most Attractive Style of Play
I hate to say it, but none of these teams are all that attractive to watch. Effective, absolutely. Attractive? Not really.
Most Resilient Team
W&L - ability to find ways to progress despite a tough start to the season, with a new staff. Won the ODAC final on the road, progressed through all road tournament games. Kind of defining resilient this year.
Best Past Decade
Conn -- In 2014 they were 7-9-1, had never been to the NCAA tournament, and never made a NESCAC final. In 2017 they made the NCAA, first round exit. 2018, second round. 2019, quarters, 2021, national title. That kind of improvement? Best of the 4 without doubt.
Best Coaching Tree
Middlebury
Most Impressive (Toughest) Road to Final Four
W&L -- on the road the whole time
Best Partisan Poster
Best Alumni/Support Base
Amherst. W&L was out in force at the last Final Four, but it was just down the road. I was impressed with how many Amherst people came from much farther.
Best Town/City Where School Located Very tongue in cheek with this one
Lexington, Va. VMI is a historic and architectural interesting neighbor to W&L, UM Amherst is a hideous campus full of blocky, unattractive buildings, knocks out Amherst. Lexington is rich in history, architecture, and restaurants with a walkable downtown accessed by the campus, knocks out Conn where if you walk too far one direction you fall off a cliff into a river and too far the other direction gets you run over by an interstate. Plus the city of New London is ugly. Lexington's warmer winters knocks out Middlebury. If you like the cold, a more urban campus, or being above a freezing river, feel free to choose different.
Best Home Pitch -- I don't know. But I doubt the northern fields can hold up to W&L's in Oct/Nov if they are real grass. And if they aren't, they don't belong on this list.
W&L -- excellent grass field, holds up until late in the season depending on weather. Upper class housing next door usually adds enough fans to create an atmosphere. Beautiful views from the field back toward the football stadium and of House Mountain in the distance.
Best Mascot/Nickname
Camels. It makes no sense to me for Conn, but Camels are mean SOBs. They spit, bite, kick. They are way bigger than you think. And most of the time they just don't give a crap about anything and just do their own thing. Plus they are taking over parts of Australia. Literally invaded another country, with some human help, and are making a mess. Mammoths got wiped out by humans, we've pretty much killed off Panthers, and Generals are a dime a dozen in every country in the world.
Most Feared Mascot (Generals, Mammoth, Camel, Panther)
Generals. Nothing in this world is scarier than human beings. Let alone those in charge of militaries.
***List is fluid so please add categories as you like
******BONUS ESSAY COMPONENT.....Should Vassar become the 12th member of NESCAC? Why? Or Why not?
Quote from: SKUD on December 01, 2024, 04:00:14 PMLooks like there is no great solution on a host site for the championship.
I think any field not made
of grass should be ruled out as a site for NCAAs.
IMO Fields like Hopkins/ Wis EC (lined for 4-6) are an embarrassment to the sport and should never be be permitted to host unless they can find a nearby proper grass field.
The NCAA needs to come home to Grand Park in Westfield, Indiana.
We have plenty of fields in doors and out. We are centrally located with a great airport nearby in Indy. Most of your student athletes have likely played a tournament or two at Grand Park in their club career. Plenty of modestly priced hotel and eating accommodations.
Return to the Hoosier Heartland!
Nicely done, jknezek.
Only one I would quibble on is Conn for best decade. Maybe most improved decade. I hope I picked Amherst in my post, but imo it is clearly Amherst with minimum of Sweet 16 literally every year (and several years into the prior decade), a national title, and now 4 F4s (or is it 5?). Anyway, Amherst arguably is the most dominant program of the past decade other than I suppose Tufts.
I assume Midd would take the SuperSub category...with a sub being their leading goals and points guy. Conn has some great subs. I assume W&L does as well. I'm guessing Amherst has the weakest bench of the four, although when he does play guys who rarely play they seem to be really good lol.
Where is Cubeddu???
Cubeddu is the best injured D3 player in the country.
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 02, 2024, 03:14:49 PMNicely done, jknezek.
Only one I would quibble on is Conn for best decade. Maybe most improved decade. I hope I picked Amherst in my post, but imo it is clearly Amherst with minimum of Sweet 16 literally every year (and several years into the prior decade), a national title, and now 4 F4s (or is it 5?). Anyway, Amherst arguably is the most dominant program of the past decade other than I suppose Tufts.
You didn't define best. To me, they have the same National titles as Amherst, 1, and rose from essentially a mid-tier NESCAC to a National Title Holder and multiple Final Fours in the span of a decade. Sure, Amherst was more consistently good, but they were consistently good before. Not as good, but really good. Conn was not. So I'd say Conn had the best decade, followed by W&L, who became and stayed nationally relevant over the 10 years, then Amherst with the most dominating decade, but not much improvement, and then Midd. Who was very good the whole time, but seemed to struggle to get over the post-season hump from very good to great. A lot of that due to having to get past Amherst or Tufts, but those are the breaks.
Anyway, just depends on how you define "best". But I'll die on the Conn hill because coming from relatively nothing post-season to National title in nearly a straight line is amazing. And now back again, so not a one hit wonder, or a one class wonder. Not even a one coach wonder to be honest.
I t
Quote from: SKUD on December 02, 2024, 03:22:04 PMCubeddu is the best injured D3 player in the country.
I think he is a great player but Amer Lukovic probably takes that title.........
Yeah, it's Lukovic. Who is in the transfer portal btw...
Can anyone 1st hand confirm that Lukovic is/was injured? I had him on a different list.
Welp, I'm gonna die on the hill of best decade nationally...not best decade for a program compared to past performance. You gonna put St Olaf over Amherst too?
Duratovic wouldn't win I suppose if Lukovic is eligible for the award, but he at least would qualify for being invited to the ceremony.
A better question might be whether jknezek and PaulNewman will ever reach a consensus on anything in the next decade. The outlook appears grim.
Quote from: paclassic89 on December 02, 2024, 03:46:49 PMYeah, it's Lukovic. Who is in the transfer portal btw...
Yes - assume a medical redshirt for D3.
Its interesting that D3 has different rules - curious if anyone knows the exact medical redshirt rules (think it's playing less than a 1/3 of the season with the college's support for petition)?
I do know D3 eligibility counts the whole year the minute you practice during the regular season regardless of minutes played if you don't have a qualified circumstance.
So I take it Cubeddu is injured (again). Speaking of decades, how many years ago did he score the GW in a national semi? For whatever reason, 2021 seems like a very long time ago. It's been a hard three years.
Quote from: Newenglander on December 02, 2024, 03:58:45 PMQuote from: paclassic89 on December 02, 2024, 03:46:49 PMYeah, it's Lukovic. Who is in the transfer portal btw...
Yes - assume a medical redshirt for D3.
You are assuming or can actually confirm it is an injury?
I can't 100% verify but I heard he tore his ACL this past summer.
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 02, 2024, 03:50:17 PMWelp, I'm gonna die on the hill of best decade nationally...not best decade for a program compared to past performance. You gonna put St Olaf over Amherst too?
No. But I might give them best last 3 years or so. The 7 before weren't great. Looks more like one dominant class. 16-19 they were bad. Flat out bad. That's a significant part of the decade. Conn is pretty much straight uphill the whole way if you graphed it.
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 02, 2024, 03:57:18 PMA better question might be whether jknezek and PaulNewman will ever reach a consensus on anything in the next decade. The outlook appears grim.
We agreed on the vast majority of the list. Or at least don't argue over it. One out of 10 or so isn't much of a percentage to disagree on.
Quote from: SKUD on December 02, 2024, 03:22:04 PMCubeddu is the best injured D3 player in the country.
Word is, Cubeddu has a talent for TikTok as well. Nearly a million followers now. It's the kind of thing that doesn't demand attention, but quietly pulls you in all the same.
Stop, I already have enough reasons to hate Amherst
Quote from: Ron Boerger on November 26, 2024, 09:50:51 AMQuote from: EnmoreCat on November 26, 2024, 02:03:12 AMI understand that Amherst isn't everyone's cup of tea and whilst I can truthfully say I don't appreciate everyone's candour, I certainly respect their right to opine. Your comments about what higher education in the US faces, resonate with me and I find myself much more interested in the prospects for what will happen there, than in Australia! I read today on Bloomberg that a number of D3 colleges, not ones that we typically discuss here, have implemented quite dramatic cuts in tuition fees, perhaps economists at the respective schools have been waxing lyrically about the concept of supply & demand. In any event, it's clear that schools all over are dealing with not just demographic issues, but also product ones.
Thanks for your good wishes, it will be no surprise that I do care about the final outcome, but also appreciate the calibre of what lies in Amherst's path.
The schools that are implementing "dramatic cuts in tuition" are largely just rationalizing what most in the US do - have a stated very high tuition and immediately offer basically anyone who gets in a 50%+ discount in "scholarships" or "grants". In the 2023-24 academic year, the average discount rate for first-time, full-time freshmen was 56.1% according to NACUBO (https://www.nacubo.org/Press-Releases/2024/Annual-NACUBO-Tuition-Discounting-Study-Finds-Financial-Aid-Awards-on-the-Rise) (the National Association of College and University Business Officers organization which tracks a great deal of college financial information in the US). The previous year it was 54.8%; given trends it would be reasonable to suspect it to close in on 60% in the current school year or the next. Who wouldn't be happy with getting $30K off on that $50K published tuition?
Not everyone gets these discounts; the well-off who attend the better-known schools will generally pay a higher net rate. One reason small schools are so eager to recruit athletes is they (or their families) are often willing to pay more to attend a school if Johnny or Jane can continue to play the sport(s) they love. The small schools that are granting reduced net tuition to all are willing to overlook that additional revenue to get more people interested in the school and hopefully through the doors, though whether that will work in the long run is to be seen.
Finally, in the US (like many other countries) the number of young people available is coming down due to lower birth rates. This, on top of families placing a lower value on a formal education from colleges, means most all colleges are scrambling to define their value equation and recruit from the smaller cohort they see each year.
The Fed in Philly just released this Predicting College Closures and Financial Distress (https://www.philadelphiafed.org/-/media/frbp/assets/working-papers/2024/wp24-20.pdf) which makes me wonder if based on his comments above Ron is a remote employee from Texas who contributed to this whitepaper? Not much on athletics but lots of data for any geeks who may be interested.
"The vast majority of revenue from intercollegiate athletics comes from the approximately
360 universities in Division I of the National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA), and much
of this revenue is concentrated among the approximately 60 institutions in the most powerful
athletic conferences. Forty-nine public universities brought in more than $100 million in athletics
revenue in the 2021–22 fiscal year (USA Today, 2024), but many Division I institutions still rely
on student fees and institutional contributions to fund athletics. Total student fees for athletics
are in excess of $1 billion per year and can exceed $2,000 per student per year at some
universities (Enright et al., 2020). Meanwhile, smaller institutions view athletics as a way to
recruit tuition-paying students who want to continue their athletic careers and thus are willing to
operate athletics with little direct revenue (Knox, 2023)."
The Knox reference at the end is here Seeking an Enrollment Hail Mary, Small Colleges Look to Athletics (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/admissions/traditional-age/2023/12/04/small-colleges-bet-new-sports-boost-enrollment) including discussion of Calvin starting its (American) football program.
LOL, no, I just dabble in the college financial space for fun (and no profit).
Does anyone have information on travel schedules for the final four teams?
Did any math-head out there run a simulation of NPI with the SOS turned down to where everyone else had it? Curious if the field would have looked any different.
Good luck to the teams lucky enough to be still playing! Some paths were much easier than others but they all earned it!
Quote from: Middfan on December 04, 2024, 06:34:59 AMDoes anyone have information on travel schedules for the final four teams?
I know Conn left yesterday afternoon and arrived in Vegas late last night. All teams get a set time to practice and walk the field today.
I think Amherst Monday night
Middlebury Tuesday
W&L arrived last night.
Las Vegas is 2000 ft above sea level. I don't believe that will require much to acclimate to, but could it have a significant effect on the durability of the players and the need to sub out players more frequently? If it will, then deeper teams could have an advantage.
2000 is pretty much the lower end of "can have an impact." We've talked about this a bit in other threads where teams traveling into Colorado Springs (6000 ft) are absolutely going to feel. As someone that has driven up 14k feet mountains and almost passed out (due to the rapid assent), while others in my car were fine... Altitude affects people differently.
At 2000 feet, a bunch of dudes won't really feel it. And the guys that due will likely be able to acclimate after a few days.
Warning Enmore has touched down in Sin City. I sense a touch of "fear and loathing in Las Vegas" may be upon us.
Quote from: SKUD on December 04, 2024, 03:49:55 PMWarning Enmore has touched down in Sin City. I sense a touch of "fear and loathing in Las Vegas" may be upon us.
My main aim is to not get tasered and to keep all teeth.
Quote from: EnmoreCat on December 04, 2024, 05:09:36 PMQuote from: SKUD on December 04, 2024, 03:49:55 PMWarning Enmore has touched down in Sin City. I sense a touch of "fear and loathing in Las Vegas" may be upon us.
My main aim is to not get tasered and to keep all teeth.
And hopefully there aren't any panthers, camels, or generals lurking around your suite. Keep your tranquilizer device at the ready.
Sage advice Paul Newman, in reality I think I come from a long line of non-adventurous types.
Quote from: EnmoreCat on December 04, 2024, 05:33:22 PMSage advice Paul Newman, in reality I think I come from a long line of non-adventurous types.
Random topic time during the anxiety-addled evening before segment...
Have you ever eaten at an Outback Steakhouse? Going back 35+ years when I was first married and living in Springfield, VA (Franconia, across the street from Clarence and Ginny Thomas), Outback was in its ascendency...with lines out the door and extending length of a football field or more.
I think I may have once, but quite some time ago. They require a bit more space than what's typically available in Downtown Enmore. Ours is more of an inner city vibe:
https://www.timeout.com/sydney/restaurants/the-best-restaurants-in-enmore
Headed to Vegas tomorrow, hoping to be there to get to game one. And while I would love to jump in on PN's rankings extravaganza, I am way too partisan to actually be taken seriously as I try to rate fairly and honestly. However, the two questions that have been bouncing around in my head for the last ten days ...
1. Can Midd get over the post-season mental whammy with Amherst. Don't get me wrong, both are phenomenal teams (I have seen both live and wow, impressive), but Amherst has gotten the best of the panthers in the postseason of late. Can Midd overcome that recency bias?
2. Is it W&L's year? Three final fours in four years (same as Amherst, actually, right?), but no titles. Are they the team of destiny this year that will overcome any and all teams placed in their path?
Curious to find out. And, try to catch EnmoreCat getting tasered on video so I can share it with the entire soccer board. ;-)
Congrats to Gavin Randolph of Middlebury, who won the Elite 90 Award for the student athlete with the highest GPA at the final four! 4.0 in Computer Science and Economics. Not too shabby.
https://x.com/NCAA/status/1864503171931844757
MunnyTim, it may turn out to be too little, too late for ROY, but your postseason surge has at a minimum landed you on the D3 boards (soccer) All-Rookie First Team.
Excellent, insightful, and balanced posting.
(You've got a future here...should you want one lol.)
Gavin has a twin brother who plays for Tufts. His mom logs lots of minutes on the sidelines for two NESCAC squads.
Hey EnmoreCat, how about we bury the hatchet?
I was thinking the Wynn Buffet Friday night, my treat. Could've gone for the Golden Steer, but with rodeo week in full swing, that's a fool's dream.
Hell, thinking about Serpone makes me sick. I won't be able to eat. Dinner's off.
Unrelated but anyone know where to pickup a taser in Vegas?
http://gspawn.com/
Ask for Rick.
Quote from: Dustin_Patrón on December 05, 2024, 02:36:21 AMHey EnmoreCat, how about we bury the hatchet?
I was thinking the Wynn Buffet Friday night, my treat. Could've gone for the Golden Steer, but with rodeo week in full swing, that's a fool's dream.
Hell, thinking about Serpone makes me sick. I won't be able to eat. Dinner's off.
Unrelated but anyone know where to pickup a taser in Vegas?
I didn't know there was even a hatchet! Beautiful day in Las Vegas BTW.
Oh how I'm going to miss all this joshing when the weekend is over and the season rides off into the Vegas sunset. Good luck to all four teams today-looking forward to the post-game musings.
Quote from: Rcjh2245 on December 05, 2024, 11:46:41 AMOh how I'm going to miss all this joshing when the weekend is over and the season rides off into the Vegas sunset. Good luck to all four teams today-looking forward to the post-game musings.
As long as this survives the opportunities for joshing should continue and be plentiful:
https://masseyratings.com/csoc/ncaa-d3/ratings (https://masseyratings.com/csoc/ncaa-d3/ratings)
Massey is still wrong middlebury has not yet won an 18th game
Quote from: Ejay on December 05, 2024, 09:13:03 AMhttp://gspawn.com/
Ask for Rick.
For a hatchet??? Bet they have all kinds.
If anyone wants to join the W&L fan base before our game (and after the earlier one) pm me. We are meeting up near the field. I would post the location here, but I'm not sure if that's smart.
Although there isn't a ton of non-athletic department media coverage of the DIII men's soccer Final Four, I thought I would post what is out there and offer a few quotes that are interesting to help you get hyped up for the games
https://www.gazettenet.com/Amherst-College-men-s-soccer-travels-to-Las-Vegas-for-NCAA-Final-Four-58303816
QuoteAfter losing in overtime in last season's national championship game to St. Olaf and earning runner-up titles in 2021 and 2019, surely the Mammoths are motivated to avenge those performances and don the national crown, right?
"Believe it or not, no," Serpone said when asked if last season's defeat has inspired his team during this postseason run. "There's been no talk of that. We're just focused on the next game, the one in front of us. And that sounds like some sort of coach talk, but it's not. The only way to win single elimination tournaments is by focusing on what's in front of you. Climb the stair that's in front of you. And that's Middlebury."
Quote"Being able to overcome the injuries and challenges, and to still be playing, I think that says more about the program than anything," Serpone said. "Some of these guys, it's their third Final Four, and they've been outstanding leaders. But they've also taken leadership lessons from guys in the past, and once the flywheel starts moving, as far as a positive culture, it's a pretty special thing. They're mentally tough, disciplined and physically tough. It's a group that cares a lot, and when you get a bunch of people that care a lot together in one place, whatever the goal is, it's a powerful thing."
I wouldn't have pegged Serpone as a gambler, but maybe he travels to Vegas semi-regularly for the shows?
QuoteSerpone may travel to Vegas semi-regularly with his wife, but almost all of the members of Amherst's team have never been. Perhaps their first trip to Sin City will be a memorable one.
"We have a pretty geographically eclectic team, guys are from all over the place, some international guys," Serpone said. "So it'll be cool, man. I think it'll be a special experience. All Final Fours are special. They do a good job making the site feel special. There's a banquet, the guys get to do community service, they get a bunch of swag – it's great."
https://thecollegevoice.org/2024/12/04/mens-soccer-nescac-championship-to-ncaa-final-four/
QuoteSilvester shared with TCV that "the regular season had ups and downs, teaching us the importance of never getting too high or too low. Throughout the tournament, we never got ahead of ourselves, and during the inevitable low points in games, we never let our focus slip." The Camels used the rollercoaster of the regular season and applied these lessons to their tournament play. Silvester added that "winning the first NESCAC championship for the men's soccer team has been a goal of ours since I was a freshman. We've come close a few times before, so achieving it this year felt even more special, especially considering how difficult our road to the final was." Spatz also noted the special feeling he felt after winning the NESCAC, coining it "indescribable." Spatz added that "it's always a nice feeling putting Conn on the map whenever it can be. People know who we are, but don't always give us the respect we deserve. Being the first men's team to win a NESCAC title is cool, but there will be more." The Camels were not finished after their success in the conference tournament, as their attention immediately shifted to the first round of the NCAA tournament.
These are behind a paywall, at least partially, but thought I would provide them as well in case you want to buy a day pass or subscribe to see your kid's name in a good old fashioned newspaper
https://www.theday.com/sports/20241203/conn-college-heading-to-final-four-hoping-for-another-title/
https://roanoke.com/sports/college/soccer/shabazz-says-synchronicity-key-for-w-l-mens-soccer-in-his-first-season/article_5d4d1620-b1b3-11ef-9f4b-8fc8e9d42180.html
https://www.soccerjournal.com/how-middlebury-returned-to-final-four-weekend-its-special/
QuoteThe memories of a Final Four weekend tend to last a lifetime. Just ask Middlebury head coach Alex Elias, a senior midfielder on Middlebury's historic 2007 squad that won the program's only national title to date.
"What I remember most vividly is there were so many alums who came to support us, guys we had played with when we were first- and second-year players, guys we never played with but got to know over the years," Elias told New England Soccer Journal. "It drove home and reinforced the reasons we had all chosen Middlebury. It was so impactful to see that support from guys who guided us through it, who were there for the biggest matches on the biggest stages."
https://www.soccerjournal.com/connecticut-college-balances-style-and-steel-en-route-to-final-four/
QuoteWhen Connecticut College lost its regular-season finale against Wesleyan, falling to sixth in the NESCAC standings, head coach Reuben Burk started asking questions.
"We totally didn't show up," Burk told New England Soccer Journal. "There was a malaise over the team. We lost 3-1 and got counter-attacked several times.
"Then going into the NESCAC tournament, maybe we were naive to think this, but we were unsure about our future. How much damage did we actually have to do in the NESCAC tournament to get a bid in the NCAA Tournament? Fortunately, the team really came together and we had conversations about the reasons of why we can't be a highly successful team. It was, what barriers are stopping us? It was, what are the excuses if we can't get this done?"
https://www.soccerjournal.com/amherst-returns-to-final-four-weekend-it-will-never-get-old/
QuoteIn the past five years, Amherst men's soccer has reached four Final Four weekends.
That's a massive accomplishment, one head coach Justin Serpone doesn't lose sight of or take for granted.
"Forget the Final Four -- making the NCAA Tournament is really hard to do and there are a lot of programs that don't ever get that chance," Serpone told New England Soccer Journal this week. "So winning a game in the NCAA Tournament, that's hard to do. Getting to a Sweet 16, then the Elite Eight and so on -- we are one thousand percent grateful for every minute we can extend our season. It will never get old.
"You can be a really good program and never get here. For this to be our fourth in five years, it feels like an embarrassment of riches."
By the way, for those still scratching their heads at the choice of Las Vegas for the championships, this article helps explain that soccer may be only one small piece of a larger strategy by UNLV and Las Vegas to get the NCAA to locate its championships in Vegas.
https://unlvrebels.com/news/2024/10/2/general-las-vegas-unlv-awarded-four-ncaa-championship-events-for-2026-28-bid-cycle.aspx
They started in 2020 bidding for a bunch of regionals of revenue sports and championships of non-revenue sports (including soccer). The fact that they hadn't had a championship located in Vegas since 1998 suggests the city and the school made a concerted effort.
QuoteThis marks the second straight bid cycle that the destination has been selected to host NCAA Championship events. In 2020, the NCAA announced that Las Vegas and UNLV would serve as co-hosts for eight events, which took place from 2023-24 and will continue through the 2025-26 academic year, including the 2023 DI men's basketball regional, 2023 DI men's golf regional, 2023 national collegiate women's bowling championship, 2024 DI women's golf regional, 2024 DIII men's golf championships, 2024 DIII men's & women's soccer championships, 2025 DII women's golf championships and 2026 DII men's golf championships.
2023 marked the first time NCAA Championship events returned to Las Vegas since 1998 when both the Division I Men's and Women's Tennis Regionals were held at the Frank and Vicki Fertitta Tennis Complex on the UNLV campus. Previous NCAA Championships held in Las Vegas also include the 1996 and 1997 Division I Men's Tennis Regionals and the 1991 Division I Women's Basketball West Regional, which was held at the Thomas & Mack Center.
It's also fairly clear that with the NCAA opening up a comprehensive bid process for its championships, there is a bundling effect going on. So, Vegas gets some events the first round and now gets more this second round, including more championship games.
QuoteThe NCAA announced Wednesday that it has awarded four championship events to Las Vegas and UNLV during the 2026-27 and 2027-28 seasons.
The Las Vegas Convention and Visitors Authority (LVCVA) and UNLV will serve as co-hosts for the following championships:
2027 Division I Women's Basketball Regional - T-Mobile Arena
2027 National Collegiate Men's Volleyball Championship - Orleans Arena
2028 Division III Men's Golf Championships - Boulder Creek Golf Club
2028 National Collegiate Men's Volleyball Championship - Orleans Arena
"We are incredibly proud to again partner with the NCAA and the LVCVA to bring these prestigious championship events to our city and university," said Erick Harper, UNLV Director of Athletics. "We have a long-standing tradition of hosting successful national events in Las Vegas and look forward to again providing exceptional experiences for student-athletes, fans and the community. We are excited to continue showcasing our world-class venues and hospitality as we welcome teams and their fans to our city."
This marks the fourth time in history that the NCAA conducted a comprehensive site selection process, putting most of its championships up for bid simultaneously. The Association chose over 240 host sites for preliminary and final rounds of predetermined championships across Divisions I, II and III, primarily for the 2026-27 and 2027-28 seasons. This cycle marked a shift from a four-year to a two-year site selection process
.
I wonder if the officials selected for the game are from out west? If so, they may have no idea of the NESCAC style of play. Would they apt to "let em play" or would they be assessing fouls and cards at an exponential rate compared to what is tolerated in the New England.
Referee for one semi is from Alabama and the other semi is from Illinois. Ref for final is from California.
Quote from: College Soccer Observer on December 05, 2024, 02:59:56 PMReferee for one semi is from Alabama and the other semi is from Illinois. Ref for final is from California.
I am glad to hear this! (At least, I think :-) )
Quote from: Kuiper on December 05, 2024, 01:32:27 PMThe fact that they hadn't had a championship located in Vegas since 1998 suggests the city and the school made a concerted effort.
So the city went all in on...the Raiders???
Quote from: maineman on December 05, 2024, 02:15:12 PMI wonder if the officials selected for the game are from out west? If so, they may have no idea of the NESCAC style of play. Would they apt to "let em play" or would they be assessing fouls and cards at an exponential rate compared to what is tolerated in the New England.
Then Amherst needs to adapt. Good teams do.
Quote from: College Soccer Observer on December 05, 2024, 02:59:56 PMReferee for one semi is from Alabama and the other semi is from Illinois. Ref for final is from California.
They play soccer in Alabama?
I kid, I kid.
Midd hoopster Edward Witherington (Fairhope, Alabama) was a pretty good goalie at the scholastic level . . .
As a partisan, would you rather your team reach the F4 3 out of 4 years or 4 out of 5 years OR win 1 national title?
Quote from: Bucket on December 05, 2024, 03:49:48 PMQuote from: College Soccer Observer on December 05, 2024, 02:59:56 PMReferee for one semi is from Alabama and the other semi is from Illinois. Ref for final is from California.
They play soccer in Alabama?
I kid, I kid.
Midd hoopster Edward Witherington (Fairhope, Alabama) was a pretty good goalie at the scholastic level . . .
There is some very, very good soccer played down here at the club level. Birmingham United, Alabama FC, some of the Mobile teams. There are some amazing soccer facilities here also. But yes, American Football still dominates and the SEC still refuses to have men's soccer as it would draw resources from other sports.
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 05, 2024, 04:44:11 PMAs a partisan, would you rather your team reach the F4 3 out of 4 years or 4 out of 5 years OR win 1 national title?
You want the national title. Of course you do. But if you are a program that had never made a final four and you make 3 of 4 or so, it's an awfully good consolation prize. But at some point, you want to see that breakthrough because you never know when things are going to change for your program.
Camera person forgot their glasses and has A.D.D.
Camera person forgot their glasses and has A.D.D.
And the woman broadcasting is clueless and has a crush on overhyped miniature striker for the purple.
PLEEEEEASE shut up!!!! Let them play. So, so, so many words. This is not radio. What next?? Tell us about the offside rule???
Quote from: SKUD on December 05, 2024, 05:55:23 PMCamera person forgot their glasses and has A.D.D.
And the woman broadcasting is clueless and has a crush on overhyped miniature striker for the purple.
Exactly. She must be the Bob Costas of D3 soccer.
Quote from: jknezek on December 05, 2024, 05:05:25 PMQuote from: Bucket on December 05, 2024, 03:49:48 PMQuote from: College Soccer Observer on December 05, 2024, 02:59:56 PMReferee for one semi is from Alabama and the other semi is from Illinois. Ref for final is from California.
They play soccer in Alabama?
I kid, I kid.
Midd hoopster Edward Witherington (Fairhope, Alabama) was a pretty good goalie at the scholastic level . . .
There is some very, very good soccer played down here at the club level. Birmingham United, Alabama FC, some of the Mobile teams. There are some amazing soccer facilities here also. But yes, American Football still dominates and the SEC still refuses to have men's soccer as it would draw resources from other sports.
Additional note that will only interest you—Edward's father was at W&L with me.
Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on December 05, 2024, 05:57:45 PMPLEEEEEASE shut up!!!! Let them play. So, so, so many words. This is not radio. What next?? Tell us about the offside rule???
And interesting choice of Jeremy Franklin as pbp, as he's employed by W&L.
This game is really horrid quality.
FWIW - 27 deg in Roanoke
Quote from: stlawus on December 05, 2024, 06:10:20 PMThis game is really horrid quality.
definitely not the beautiful game
nice #32 - cynical kick to the head
That wasn't a pretty first half. Oh well. Sometimes it goes that way in high stakes games.
Yeah, 32 late kick to the head of Midd goalie ... and tackle arm tackle by 17 from behind to prevent a Midd breakaway each brought amHerst yellow cards.
Some interesting tactical changes in this game for the Panthers. Frosh "supersub" Keagan Harder, Midd's leading scorer and NESCAC freshman of the year, starts his first game of the season in place of all-conference forward Gavin Randolph. And Freshman Samual Dolan gets the starting nod on defense in place of sophomore Ari Klayman. Klayman tweaked his hamstring against Vassar, but he did come on in this game as a sub. (FWIW: Klayman was starting in place of frosh Anthony Costintino, who broke his leg in the last game of the regular season.) For a Panther team that has so many senior contributors, there's basically a starting quality second team of underclassmen. Impressive depth.
Great header by Enmore kitten. When the Middlebury GK went out that hard for the corner, he absolutely had to get a touch on it. Once he missed, it was real trouble.
Amherst 1 - Middlebury 0
Middlebury goalie wearing a baseball cap in net, gets scored on right away. Coincidence?
nice finish there by Midd #4
There is so much about this game that I find disappointing. Not a fan of the field, players seem to be struggling to keep their feet. The ball is unpredictable and makes playing the ball on the ground is very difficult. Seems it to have have 20/25 minutes before Middlebury started to get into the game. And then the stream froze on me with 5 minutes left.
I was going to do game notes but after the first ten minutes I stopped since I seemed to be saying the same thing over and over.
And now the @Enmorekitten scores the go ahead.
As an aside, would love to know the stats of the timing of every Amherst goal this season. Think the real power of Amherst is their ability to break down teams in the first 15 to 20 minutes of each half. Just amazing to see.
I think there should be a rule that only D3 schools should host the D3 finals. I don't know. Unless of course, Hope College hosts the March Madness Final Four....
And Middlebury ties it up.
SC.
Middlebury immediately equalizes. Bouncing ball struck in the net by Taylor Payne. Both defenses are shaky in the box to start the second half.
Amherst 1 - Middlebury 1
Quote from: gocamels on December 05, 2024, 06:44:18 PMMiddlebury goalie wearing a baseball cap in net, gets scored on right away. Coincidence?
The sun is really brutal for him on that side, so I can understand it. Maybe the sun caused him to go out for the cross late or misjudge its height, because he got up high but really didn't have much of a chance.
Now Amherst looks all nervy.
SC.
Over-under 20 fouls for Amherst this game?
Quote from: Bucket on December 05, 2024, 07:00:14 PMOver-under 20 fouls for Amherst this game?
They only have 10 thus far according to the NCAA stats. Middlebury has 9.
Quote from: Kuiper on December 05, 2024, 07:02:58 PMQuote from: Bucket on December 05, 2024, 07:00:14 PMOver-under 20 fouls for Amherst this game?
They only have 10 thus far according to the NCAA stats. Middlebury has 9.
That's inaccurate.
Also, happy to entertain the same question for Middlebury.
Much better second half.
SC.
Further, over/under yellow cards? Seeing that Amherst already has 2 to Middlebury's 0, I guess we need to set the tally higher than the 2 already earned by the Lord Mammoths.
Madden down with what looks like a hamstring issue. That's rough for him and Midd.
GLUE, GLUE
Both teams being extremely intentional....like really intentional..and intentional about being intentional.
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 05, 2024, 07:07:47 PMBoth teams being extremely intentional....like really intentional..and intentional about being intentional.
The intentionality of their intentions just highlights the intent of both teams.
SC.
Quote from: Kuiper on December 05, 2024, 07:06:20 PMMadden down with what looks like a hamstring issue. That's rough for him and Midd.
Hamstring injuries seem far more frequent than ACL tears...and nearly as devastating in such a short season.
VAR review in the NCAA semifinals! Seems like they need better angles to overturn the call
UPDATE: PK!
Amherst 2 - Middlebury 1
LOL. What bull****.
Absolutely zero evidence to reverse a non-call. Or make a call.
Hell of a way to potentially decide an NCAA semi-final.
Looks like Nuhu got injured during the bad celebration LOL after the horrible use of VAR. Slo-mo made it look 100x worse, not a great angle either. How can there be VAR in the F4 after no VAR all season????? Harsh call
Quote from: gocamels on December 05, 2024, 07:16:15 PMLooks like Nuhu got injured during the bad celebration LOL after the horrible use of VAR. Slo-mo made it look 100x worse, not a great angle either. How can there be VAR in the F4 after no VAR all season????? Harsh call
no clue VAR was in play????
Two VAR reviews within minutes of each other!
There's technically been VAR all season it's just been up to the host institution's discretion.
Quote from: gocamels on December 05, 2024, 07:16:15 PMLooks like Nuhu got injured during the bad celebration LOL after the horrible use of VAR. Slo-mo made it look 100x worse, not a great angle either. How can there be VAR in the F4 after no VAR all season????? Harsh call
VAR was available all season under a new rule. It's just that the facility had to have sufficient cameras to run it and most schools did not.
Absolutely zero difference between the two plays.
This is a travesty.
For clarity, I should add: neither was a foul.
I don't think the commentator realizes that there's a ton of bad blood between these teams lol.
In any case, that was quite a decision by the ref
Quote from: Kuiper on December 05, 2024, 07:20:00 PMQuote from: gocamels on December 05, 2024, 07:16:15 PMLooks like Nuhu got injured during the bad celebration LOL after the horrible use of VAR. Slo-mo made it look 100x worse, not a great angle either. How can there be VAR in the F4 after no VAR all season????? Harsh call
VAR was available all season under a new rule. It's just that the facility had to have sufficient cameras to run it and most schools did not.
not sure this location has sufficient cameras either, tbh
Here in attendance and that was shameful. Neither were penalties.
Might use my taser on this ref instead.
I think the intentionality of the dislike each team has for one another is pretty intentional.
SC.
Quote from: eaglesoccerdad on December 05, 2024, 07:24:54 PMQuote from: Kuiper on December 05, 2024, 07:20:00 PMQuote from: gocamels on December 05, 2024, 07:16:15 PMLooks like Nuhu got injured during the bad celebration LOL after the horrible use of VAR. Slo-mo made it look 100x worse, not a great angle either. How can there be VAR in the F4 after no VAR all season????? Harsh call
VAR was available all season under a new rule. It's just that the facility had to have sufficient cameras to run it and most schools did not.
not sure this location has sufficient cameras either, tbh
Agree, although it looks like they have cameras besides each goal. We just didn't see a second angle on the Middlebury penalty decision and we did on the Amherst one. Not sure why.
The announcers are... Verbose. Uggh.
Interesting to make a GK change here for Middlebury. If they were down by more, I could see giving a senior some minutes, but not at 2-1. Maybe he's better with distribution out of the back as they press for the equalizer?
Amherst with an asterisk on this one. Utterly undeserved and decided by an official.
Utter bull****.
I look forward to Simple Coach stating that Midd didn't rise to the occasion.
A terrible way to decide a semifinal.
SC.
Quote from: stlawus on December 05, 2024, 07:19:46 PMThere's technically been VAR all season it's just been up to the host institution's discretion.
got it - watched it a lot of games across conferences - didn't see it once
Next game at nine eastern?
Is it too much to hope that they put some water down on that "turf" before the second match, or would that just result in mud?
Absolutely wild that VAR has been in the mix all season. I think many would be in my camp of never once hearing that mentioned either on a broadcast or on this board of fairly knowledgeable folks.
Wild.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on December 05, 2024, 08:05:10 PMAbsolutely wild that VAR has been in the mix all season. I think many would be in my camp of never once hearing that mentioned either on a broadcast or on this board of fairly knowledgeable folks.
Wild.
I said it was put in place this year, but it was actually started last season as an experimental rule and than expanded for this season.
The experimental rule was in 2023 and a conference had to adopt the rule to allow it and to collect data. Back in 2016, they had previously allowed (https://www.ncaa.org/news/2016/4/12/video-review-rule-approved-for-soccer.aspx) Video Review for goals, cards, and to identify participants in a fight. I think it was almost exlusively used for fights because no one had goal line cameras. The experimental year last year allowed called PKs, red cards, and DOGSO calls.
https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/championships/sports/soccer/rules/2023PRMWSO_ExperimentalRule.pdf
QuoteExperimental Rule: In advance of the 2023 soccer season, this correspondence is to make you
aware that the Men's and Women's Soccer Rules Committee plans to consider and study potential
rules changes involving expanded use of video review.
In an effort to obtain data and feedback, the Men's and Women's Soccer Rules Committee and
Playing Rules Oversight Panel are allowing any Division I, II or III conference to experiment during
regular season conference games and/or the conference tournament with expanded use of video
review, including called penalty kicks, red cards and denial of an obvious goal-scoring opportunity
situations, and to allow an assistant referee to assist the referee during video review.
Any conference interested in experimenting must submit the request in writing to Rich Grady
(ncaasoccersre@gmail.com) by June 1, 2023. Conferences granted permission to experiment are
required to collect data and submit it to the rules committee at the end of the season. The full
details of the experimental rule, including specific reviewable situations and data collection points,
are available below.
For 2024, they expanded video review, allowing everyone to do it if the referee determined that the video review equipment was available and in working condition. They also expanded it to cover PKs not called (obviously at issue in the Amherst-Midd game), and a bunch of other things detailed below. Most schools didn't have the video review equipment available in DIII as far as I know. It was used in DI, although you can see they emphasize that it is encouraged at all levels.
https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/championships/sports/soccer/rules/2024PRXSO_PointsofEmphasis.pdf
QuoteVideo Review Expanded. After the successful implementation of an experimental rule
last season, video review has been expanded this year to include penalty kicks (whether
called or not called on the field), direct red card situations (whether issued or not on the
field), determining the proper decision in situations involving stopping a promising attack
or denying an obvious goal scoring opportunity and determining whether a goal should
be disallowed for an offside offense. Furthermore, it is emphasized that the use of video
review is encouraged for Divisions I, II and III of NCAA Soccer. The referee will meet with
game administration staff at least 30 minutes before kickoff to confirm if video review
equipment is available and that the equipment is in good working order.
Is there any video of the PK call? Very curious to see.
Can't believe the center ref didn't use the second VAR as an opportunity to correct his mistake.
If it takes 5+ minutes of reviewing the video both times, how do we end up with two different verdicts.
Well played by both teams. It's a shame this center ref decided the game today.
Can see why PN doesn't like the FF.
Yes, they replayed it 10 x
Link shows both VAR moments
Imo gross game for a multitude of reasons. Hope this next one is better on the eyes
kuiper, with all due respect (and I'll do this again - when I say that I mean it, you are legend on this board) a lot of stuff that gets posted in the rule changes thread gets pretty tedious and quite often over-looked.
But, more to the point, has anyone seen a regular season or up to this point NCAA tournament game where VAR gets trotted out??
Either it's part of the game or it's not. Bringing it in at the Final Four stage, in my opinion, is not the correct course.
Quote from: Dustin_Patrón on December 05, 2024, 08:23:25 PMCan't believe the center ref didn't use the second VAR as an opportunity to correct his mistake.
If it takes 5+ minutes of reviewing the video both times, how do we end up with two different verdicts.
Well played by both teams. It's a shame this center ref decided the game today.
Can see why PN doesn't like the FF.
Correct. Neither was called on the field, neither warranted a call.
But if one was overturned based on video, then both should have. They were the same play. Obviously, neither should have been overturned.
Utterly egregious on the part of the center official.
Quote from: SimpleCoach on December 05, 2024, 07:49:03 PMA terrible way to decide a semifinal.
SC.
I think a more horrible way to decide a semi would be to ignore VAR and not review a foul in the box.
I would also add, I only got to see the last 5 minutes live, which is why I'm not getting into the specific calls.
Hats off to both team for sportsmanship after the game. I think just about every player found every single guy on the other side to dap up.
Good to see after a weekend in college football where everyone thought waving a flag around was a reason to instigate a massive brawl.
Quote from: SKUD on December 05, 2024, 08:31:39 PMQuote from: SimpleCoach on December 05, 2024, 07:49:03 PMA terrible way to decide a semifinal.
SC.
I think a more horrible way to decide a semi would be to ignore VAR and not review a foul in the box.
Did you watch the video? Neither was a foul in the box. And neither was called on the field.
I don't care about using VAR. But be competent if you're going to use it and overturn what was not called on the field.
And that penalty call was utterly incompetent.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on December 05, 2024, 08:26:32 PMkuiper, with all due respect (and I'll do this again - when I say that I mean it, you are legend on this board) a lot of stuff that gets posted in the rule changes thread gets pretty tedious and quite often over-looked.
But, more to the point, has anyone seen a regular season or up to this point NCAA tournament game where VAR gets trotted out??
Either it's part of the game or it's not. Bringing it in at the Final Four stage, in my opinion, is not the correct course.
The Kenyon vs Denison NCAC semifinals had a PK overturned after VAR
nah - perfectly ok to ignore VAR. camera angles are suspect and make the VAR review just as subjective as the call on the field
Quote from: Hopkins92 on December 05, 2024, 08:26:32 PMkuiper, with all due respect (and I'll do this again - when I say that I mean it, you are legend on this board) a lot of stuff that gets posted in the rule changes thread gets pretty tedious and quite often over-looked.
But, more to the point, has anyone seen a regular season or up to this point NCAA tournament game where VAR gets trotted out??
Either it's part of the game or it's not. Bringing it in at the Final Four stage, in my opinion, is not the correct course.
I didn't even focus on this in the rule change thread (wait a minute . . . are you saying that no one really reads my off-season posts! ;) ). I saw it and assumed that was really for DI. Heck, many D3 games don't even have working streams and certainly not multiple cameras, so I thought it wouldn't really be used in these games. Maybe it was. To be fair, the video game improved this year at many schools, with more multiple angles (e.g., Trinity) and more drone usage (e.g., Pomona-Pitzer and UC Santa Cruz), but I didn't see any VAR reviews in D3 games. Maybe they happened.
I have seen it used in DI games though. For example, it was used in the Pitt win over Kansas City in the tournament on Sunday
https://pittsburghsoccernow.com/2024/12/04/analysis-staying-with-the-process-pitt-mens-soccer-overcome-obstacles-in-ncaa-tournament-run/
They confirmed that a goal scored was offside
QuotePitt quickly accelerated through the final seconds to get into position for one last push at goal — when Casper Svenby advanced into the right side of the box, then delivered a perfect ball across for Luis Sahmkow, who delivered a clinical finish that appeared (for a second or two) to be the game-winner with just one second left on the countdown clock used in NCAA soccer.
The goal was immediately waved off — and the officials went to VAR to confirm the call on the field.
https://x.com/pghsoccernow/status/1863375057013133609
So we can say it was a horrible call but more horrible would be to ignore it.
I did see it on a 56" tv in slow motion. it looked like he might have gotten ball (inconclusive) and then tripped the player in the box. I am not a ref and don't have a rule book. If it played out how I saw it, is it a foul or not?
Quote from: SKUD on December 05, 2024, 08:42:32 PMSo we can say it was a horrible call but more horrible would be to ignore it.
I did see it on a 56" tv in slow motion. it looked like he might have gotten ball (inconclusive) and then tripped the player in the box. I am not a ref and don't have a rule book. If it played out how I saw it, is it a foul or not?
Seems to me he obviously got the ball—it changes direction—then slides through the player.
Either way, if inconclusive, then one must defer to the call on the field, no?
As someone with no stake in the outcome, neither of those plays was a clear foul at all. And certainly not a foul warranting a PK. That's an insane call, no justification. Especially overturning the call on the field. Wow what a ****ty way to lose.
Quote from: SKUD on December 05, 2024, 08:42:32 PMSo we can say it was a horrible call but more horrible would be to ignore it.
I did see it on a 56" tv in slow motion. it looked like he might have gotten ball (inconclusive) and then tripped the player in the box. I am not a ref and don't have a rule book. If it played out how I saw it, is it a foul or not?
Where's college soccer observer when you need him!
Quote from: Hopkins92 on December 05, 2024, 08:26:32 PMkuiper, with all due respect (and I'll do this again - when I say that I mean it, you are legend on this board) a lot of stuff that gets posted in the rule changes thread gets pretty tedious and quite often over-looked.
But, more to the point, has anyone seen a regular season or up to this point NCAA tournament game where VAR gets trotted out??
Either it's part of the game or it's not. Bringing it in at the Final Four stage, in my opinion, is not the correct course.
Denison used it in the regular season a few times
The defender clearly got the ball. And the thing with that call that is so killer is that the Amherst guy was dribbling into a wall of three white shirts at the very edge of the box. It would not remotely have been a scoring opportunity but for the call. If it's a very clear foul, yeah, the refs have no choice but to make the call but when it's not clear (if at all) you simply can't gift a team a PK from a situation in which there was no advantage for the offense.
Ok.. Able to go back and watch those plays in the run of play and with the benefit of 1000 replays.
Terrible terrible terrible.
The exact same situations. Don't call either, let the game go on.
My god. NESCAC folks are fully aware, that stuff NEVER gets called.
Wow.
Quote from: nescac1 on December 05, 2024, 08:56:59 PMThe defender clearly got the ball. And the thing with that call that is so killer is that the Amherst guy was dribbling into a wall of three white shirts at the very edge of the box. It would not remotely have been a scoring opportunity but for the call. If it's a very clear foul, yeah, the refs have no choice but to make the call but when it's not clear (if at all) you simply can't gift a team a PK from a situation in which there was no advantage for the offense.
Especially when you didn't call it in real time (!), and then view on replay shows nothing conclusive. (Though I'd argue the replay shows conclusively that Farrell got the ball first)
It's shocking, honestly. (And I know I'm saying this as a Midd diehard, but there really doesn't seem to be a reasonable argument otherwise.)
Thank you NES that makes sense.
Sorry Bucket your vision is not good when you don't have a weeping willow shading you ;)
Quote from: SKUD on December 05, 2024, 09:01:26 PMThank you NES that makes sense.
Sorry Bucket your vision is not good when you don't have a weeping willow shading you ;)
I like that observation, my friend. Though I'd argue my view of the video was the same as the center ref's!
Quote from: soccerlaxfan on December 05, 2024, 08:56:51 PMQuote from: Hopkins92 on December 05, 2024, 08:26:32 PMkuiper, with all due respect (and I'll do this again - when I say that I mean it, you are legend on this board) a lot of stuff that gets posted in the rule changes thread gets pretty tedious and quite often over-looked.
But, more to the point, has anyone seen a regular season or up to this point NCAA tournament game where VAR gets trotted out??
Either it's part of the game or it's not. Bringing it in at the Final Four stage, in my opinion, is not the correct course.
Denison used it in the regular season a few times
I never watched a Denison home game, but that's exactly the kind of situation where I could see it being used in DIII. Denison built a brand new field complex and Coach Bianco is very knowledgeable about NCAA rules from his time on the soccer competition committee. I wouldn't be surprised if he had places for multiple cameras installed on the field and video replay equipment purchased as part of the construction project and then proceeded to inform referees of its availability so they could inspect it and approve its use during the games.
Now if we could only take the color person off her ignorant talking points.
The stove is too hot to be commenting now, but of course no one will be that interested once the temperature cools off.
Just one observer's opinion...
First of all, did the players know VAR might be used? Imo the answer was not to award the first challenge with a PK. The contact was too marginal and as far I could tell had no real impact on whether Amherst was going to get a good scoring chance in that spot. That said, and I say this believing the ref had plenty of room to conclude "inconclusive," I did think on multiple reviews that the Midd player did get the Amherst player marginally on the foot before touching the ball. The second one imo was extremely similar to the first one but imo not exactly the same. The ref I presume knew the first call could have gone either way and was probably realizing he was injecting himself into a marginal call, and so when the second play happened I would guess he hoped there was room to make a legit PK call. He didn't see it and so didn't stop the action, but on appeal after the Midd YC he immediately agreed to go look. I presume he would have given a PK there if he had seen anything to justify it. Imo Murphy did touch the ball before player.
Very impressed with Midd's midfield and offensive talent but I kept wanting to see more of it. They had spells in the 2nd half where they looked effective and dangerous but not much in the first half. That team is too talented to go the last 200 minutes of the season with only 1 goal. I would have expected Midd to come out of the gate on fire looking to stun Amherst with a 2-0 lead after 25-30 minutes. A cagey match especially now in hindsight probably was always going to favor the Mammoths. And you absolutely cannot allow the Kitten score in the first minute of the 2nd half off a corner.
I noticed what seemed like good sportsmanship in the end also, and that was good to see. The Midd players did not look like they felt the game was stolen from them based on their immediate postgame reactions. They also didn't seem to flip out when the ref came back from VAR with the PK call. I'm sure he doesn't not care one little bit, but Nuhu for such an incredibly talented player sure does make himself hard to like.
Very hard match to watch, but we knew that would most likely be the case. Congrats to Middlebury on a fantastic season. They did get a breakthrough in reaching the F4 and they certainly were good enough to prevail today, but I can't go so far as to say it was taken from them.
Quote from: soccerlaxfan on December 05, 2024, 08:56:51 PMQuote from: Hopkins92 on December 05, 2024, 08:26:32 PMkuiper, with all due respect (and I'll do this again - when I say that I mean it, you are legend on this board) a lot of stuff that gets posted in the rule changes thread gets pretty tedious and quite often over-looked.
But, more to the point, has anyone seen a regular season or up to this point NCAA tournament game where VAR gets trotted out??
Either it's part of the game or it's not. Bringing it in at the Final Four stage, in my opinion, is not the correct course.
Denison used it in the regular season a few times
I'm guessing that's because Denison has a spanking new, state of the art field complex...and Bianco being VERY INTENTIONAL about staying with or ahead of the curve.
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 05, 2024, 09:05:29 PMThe stove is too hot to be commenting now, but of course no one will be that interested once the temperature cools off.
Just one observer's opinion...
First of all, did the players know VAR might be used? Imo the answer was not to award the first challenge with a PK. The contact was too marginal and as far I could tell had no real impact on whether Amherst was going to get a good scoring chance in that spot. That said, and I say this believing the ref had plenty of room to conclude "inconclusive," I did think on multiple reviews that the Midd player did get the Amherst player marginally on the foot before touching the ball. The second one imo was extremely similar to the first one but imo not exactly the same. The ref I presume knew the first call could have gone either way and was probably realizing he was injecting himself into a marginal call, and so when the second play happened I would guess he hoped there was room to make a legit PK call. He didn't see it and so didn't stop the action, but on appeal after the Midd YC he immediately agreed to go look. I presume he would have given a PK there if he had seen anything to justify it. Imo Murphy did touch the ball before player.
Very impressed with Midd's midfield and offensive talent but I kept wanting to see more of it. They had spells in the 2nd half where they looked effective and dangerous but not much in the first half. That team is too talented to go the last 200 minutes of the season with only 1 goal. I would have expected Midd to come out of the gate on fire looking to stun Amherst with a 2-0 lead after 25-30 minutes. A cagey match especially now in hindsight probably was always going to favor the Mammoths. And you absolutely cannot allow the Kitten score in the first minute of the 2nd half off a corner.
I noticed what seemed like good sportsmanship in the end also, and that was good to see. The Midd players did not look like they felt the game was stolen from them based on their immediate postgame reactions.They also didn't seem to flip out when the ref came back from VAR with the PK call. I'm sure he doesn't not care one little bit, but Nuhu for such an incredibly talented player sure does make himself hard to like.
Very hard match to watch, but we knew that would most likely be the case. Congrats to Middlebury on a fantastic season. They did get a breakthrough in reaching the F4 and they certainly were good enough to prevail today, but I can't go so far as to say it was taken from them.
Because they are coached by Alex Elias. He doesn't exhibit such reactions, and his players follow suit. Doesn't mean the call wasn't egregious. And, honestly, ridiculous to use the Panthers' good sportsmanship as a means to justify the unjustifiable.
Before I go ultra-sour grapes about the match, let me say to EnmoreCat: A beautiful goal by your son. I'm glad you were able to be there to see it in person.
Field seems like a dog track.
That said... Is that that the Sphere in the background? I mean... That's pretty cool.
Yep, still too hot. I've watched a lot of Amherst-Midd games and in my recent memory there is always something...and I think you've commented vociferously at those times as well. I saw plenty of emotion from Midd players during the game. I might have missed it but I didn't see that when the ref came back from VAR with the call (or after the game). I said it shouldn't have been called. Do I also have to see the two plays exactly the same way you saw them?
Quote from: Hopkins92 on December 05, 2024, 09:19:37 PMField seems like a dog track.
That said... Is that that the Sphere in the background? I mean... That's pretty cool.
Yes. The sphere is just across an intersection from UNLV's campus.
As for the field, that's the way that the grass looks this time of year in Nevada and Arizona. It's basically dormant and very short.
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 05, 2024, 09:20:06 PMYep, still too hot. I've watched a lot of Amherst-Midd games and in my recent memory there is always something...and I think you've commented vociferously at those times as well. I saw plenty of emotion from Midd players during the game. I might have missed it but I didn't see that when the ref came back from VAR with the call (or after the game). I said it shouldn't have been called. Do I also have to see the two plays exactly the same way you saw them?
Assuming this is meant for me.
No need to see the world as I see it; my ex-wife would tell you that's a bad way to live!
But, I will add: don't confuse emotion with sportsmanship. Midd will play with plenty of fire and edge (Colin Dugan!), but I'd like to think that Alex and his staff have an extremely positive impact by example when it comes to being a good sport.
What a save by Sylvester......
SC.
That was a seriously good save by Silvester. At that close range, the shot had to have some power on it even though it was basically a half-volley
Each goalie has a reaction save so far to keep the score at 0. That was a beautiful save by Conn though.
This game so far, even accounting for my favoritism, is 1000x more watchable than the previous.
Quote from: Kuiper on December 05, 2024, 09:28:42 PMThat was a seriously good save by Silvester. At that close range, the shot had to have some power on it even though it was basically a half-volley
I would also say from the angle he made the save from the only way that was not going to go in was if it went off the the cross bar. No chance he could have tipped it over the bar.
SC
I will make a few general remarks on the video review process and procedures.
First, it was available to use all season, and it could be as simple as an iPad. The goal is to fix egregious errors, not to re-referee the games. The NCAA D3 Men's and Women's Soccer Committees decreed that video review would only be used at the final four during the tournament.
Second, Coach Bianco is the current chair of the Rules Committee and has been a passionate advocate for the use of video review.
Third, the rule states: "Indisputable video evidence, in the judgment of the referee, must be present
for the call on the field to be overturned."
Fourth, all I saw is what was shown on the broadcast. I do not know what angles were available to the referee.
Fifth, the teams were aware that video review would be used.
Finally, as many participants in this forum know, I am not a neutral in this case. My son was the starting goalkeeper for Middlebury from 2019-2023, and I am a huge supporter of the program, the coaching staff, and the players and parents. Any statement I make about the accuracy of decisions would be seen through that lens and might be taken as an official verdict.
Really good first half and entertaining. It seems these teams match up well against one another.
CC needed the break, starting to look a bit ragged for them over the last couple of minutes.
Middlebury 1 Amherst 2 (Amherst progresses)
The UNLV field felt a little small to me, but unlike most grounds I have visited in my three seasons, it at least had a proper toilet. A win in my book. The grass looked good to me although it did seem to get chopped up a bit. These are two teams which know each other well and I am sure have considerable respect for each other.
The first half was pretty even and for seasoned watchers of these games pretty typical. I suspect both sides had positives to take away. EnmoreKitten popped up with a goal and for the next few minutes after that it looked like Amherst might get a second, but instead it was the Panthers that equalized. It was a bit scrappy and certainly disappointing for those with purple in their hearts, but again this is NESCAC and teams don't give up. Not sure if the referee heard a loud mouthed Australian shout on one foul that they wouldn't call that in NESCAC, but based on what I saw, I thought he had an okay game. The VAR decisions were kind of unusual, but in the heat of the moment it felt like both could have been given. Sister of EnmoreKitten watching in downtown Enmore thought both were about right, I'm happy to go with that. I understand there are other opinions, but am moving on.
Midd did push and do play an attractive brand of football and pushed very hard and it did feel like Amherst was just holding on, but in the final few minutes it felt like Midd had fired their shot and bowed out. I don't think they could have done much more and they and their supporters should be super proud of a fine season. They have my respect.
As for Amherst, for this group it's a third final out of four and overall a fourth out of five. Whilst there's no doubt it would be nice to win one, the very best next thing is getting there and this team has shown considerable resolve week in, week out. I get that people don't like them, but those with purple in their hearts absolutely love them and I look forward to a Mammoth herd descending on Vegas to hopefully enjoy a big day on Saturday. Win or lose, the Mammoth Nation salutes you.
Foul Count: Midd 13 Amherst 15
For those in attendance - the field conditions are terrible
Well struck but think the W&L GK would want that one back.
Horvath-Diano has quietly been one of the players of the tournament. If Conn wins today and Saturday, and the MVP doesn't go to Sylvester, watch out for him as a dark horse.
Painful. Conn can't do anything if it's not a clean break. If any of those W&L chances had gone in and Conn had to chase with W&L sitting back a bit this would be a different game.
The Camels just... Nothing with the ball. All credit to the goalie. If Conn goes through this is his victory.
It was a nice free kick, I'll give them that.
Soccer is a weird and frustrating game sometimes.
Quote from: jknezek on December 05, 2024, 10:54:07 PMPainful. Conn can't do anything if it's not a clean break. If any of those W&L chances had gone in and Conn had to chase with W&L sitting back a bit this would be a different game.
The Camels just... Nothing with the ball. All credit to the goalie. If Conn goes through this is his victory.
It was a nice free kick, I'll give them that.
Soccer is a weird and frustrating game sometimes.
yes - but game changed after goal - w&L pressed - would be a different game in any other situation
What a run for Conn.
Finished 6th in the NESCAC.
Incredible post-season run for the Camels.
Easy win for the camels
Quote from: Newenglander on December 05, 2024, 11:03:01 PMQuote from: jknezek on December 05, 2024, 10:54:07 PMPainful. Conn can't do anything if it's not a clean break. If any of those W&L chances had gone in and Conn had to chase with W&L sitting back a bit this would be a different game.
The Camels just... Nothing with the ball. All credit to the goalie. If Conn goes through this is his victory.
It was a nice free kick, I'll give them that.
Soccer is a weird and frustrating game sometimes.
yes - but game changed after goal - w&L pressed - would be a different game in any other situation
I agree with this. And would add in addition to the obvious and oft-mentioned strength of Conn's GK and backline their midfielders were lights out in the first half, especially #7. Really good game and glad I tuned in to watch.
Quote from: dacac on December 05, 2024, 11:06:21 PMEasy win for the camels
But I don't agree with this.
Quote from: Newenglander on December 05, 2024, 11:03:01 PMQuote from: jknezek on December 05, 2024, 10:54:07 PMPainful. Conn can't do anything if it's not a clean break. If any of those W&L chances had gone in and Conn had to chase with W&L sitting back a bit this would be a different game.
The Camels just... Nothing with the ball. All credit to the goalie. If Conn goes through this is his victory.
It was a nice free kick, I'll give them that.
Soccer is a weird and frustrating game sometimes.
yes - but game changed after goal - w&L pressed - would be a different game in any other situation
Not really. W&L had the better of the first half and the goal came completely against the run of play. Conn had the moments of brilliance, so kudos to them for winning.
From what I saw, I don't think they would have had much hope if they had fallen behind. They had nothing going forward, and would have had even less space if they had to chase.
That being said, they did what was needed and W&L could not. Congratulations to the Camels and good luck on the Finals.
Both good games. I'm going with Amherst in the finally. Conn was lights out first two games. Last 3 imo not so great.
W&L is outstanding. Played very, very well...and deserved to get at least one and probably more. I was surprised to what degree they dominated, especially being quicker to the ball and winning 50/50s. W&L is not short on physicality either. But, yes, dominant and Conn struggled to keep the ball beyond 3 passes because of the W&L pressure and then W&L's ability to move the ball around the pitch. Conn usually is very good in possession but W&L did not let them breathe and were a nearly constant threat. Now, all that said, I never had a feeling Conn was gonna lose that game. Maybe just biased towards Conn after these past few years, but even though they knew they were getting overwhelmed they somehow remained resilient, got a goal, and gutted it out. As as aside, a much more pleasureable game to watch. Not always beautiful but it felt like a real soccer match. Congrats to both teams.
Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on December 05, 2024, 11:18:06 PMBoth good games. I'm going with Amherst in the finally. Conn was lights out first two games. Last 3 imo not so great.
LOL. They're in the national final!
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 05, 2024, 11:25:32 PMW&L is outstanding. Played very, very well...and deserved to get at least one and probably more. I was surprised to what degree they dominated, especially being quicker to the ball and winning 50/50s. W&L is not short on physicality either. But, yes, dominant and Conn struggled to keep the ball beyond 3 passes because of the W&L pressure and then W&L's ability to move the ball around the pitch. Conn usually is very good in possession but W&L did not let them breathe and were a nearly constant threat. Now, all that said, I never had a feeling Conn was gonna lose that game. Maybe must biased towards Conn after these past few years, but even though they knew they were getting overwhelmed they somehow remained resilient, got a goal, and gutted it out. As as aside, a much more pleasureable game to watch. Not always beautiful but it felt like a real soccer match. Congrats to both teams.
Hats off to W&L for an amazing season and a good run over the past few years. The competetion at the top is extreme and when you have a chance to win it you have to win it. I am sure W&L will be back, but they have to focus on winning because no program is on top forever but when you win the program will always be a champion.
Amherst can attest to the confidence one gets when you climb that hill.
There is a lot of pressure on Amherst in the final.
They have lost 3 finals in the past 5 years.
Amherst has been the dominant team in NESCAC for the past 20 years.
More so than Tufts with 4 rings and more than Williams who had the iconic coach Russo and his 400 wins and Championship in mid 90s still is seen as next level program nationally.
Conn can make it 2 championships and twice as much as Williams, Amuerst and Middlebury despite being a relatively new kid on the block Nationally atleast.
May the best team win.
All these boys playing in the final 4 are winners.
You don't make it to this level as a Coach or player unless you have that something special. That bond that makes teammates become brothers.
Dear lord, today I am thankful for exercising restraint in not asking my friend who currently referees at a high level and has zero ties to anything related to d3 soccer to unobjectively opine on the VAR calls.
Congrats to Conn, a well deserved win in a game that could have gone either way. I thought they started out on top, controlling the ball well and asserting their style on the game. Lost the reigns a bit toward the end of the first half and struggled to regain it. Relied on a few moments of brilliance that W&L just did not have on the night -- great free kick from Horvath-Diano, who always puts in a dangerous ball with that left foot -- and a few great saves from Silvester who was absolutely lights out all night. Some of the best saves i've seen at this level. Now for the rematch. Hoping Conn can sustain possession a bit more in a game that Amherst will try to turn into a circus. Always an interesting game when two teams with polar opposite identities go up against each other. Go Camels.
Interesting to note. Conn and Amherst played in the first round of the NESCAC playoffs (Conn 1-1, won in pks). Now they will be playing each other on a much bigger stage. That goes to show just how dominate these NESCAC teams are.
The two teams also will have a rematch of the 2021 national finals (ironically, also 1-1 with Conn winning in pks). In my opinion this is the country's most underrated rivalry, with most people talking about the rivalries of Amherst, tufts, and middlebury in the NESCAC
For the seniors playing in the matchup it will be the 9th time playing each other.
Current record for Conn vs Amherst
3 wins( counting pks as wins)
3 losses
2 ties
Amherst has beat Conn on their run to win 2 nescac championship
And Conn has beat Amherst in there run to win a national championship and a nescac championship.
Feels like the ultimate tie breaker
If the Conn keeper was replaced by someone slightly worse, that game could have easily finished 3-0 to W&L.
Quote from: eaglesoccerdad on December 05, 2024, 06:16:44 PMQuote from: stlawus on December 05, 2024, 06:10:20 PMThis game is really horrid quality.
definitely not the beautiful game
That is not the Midd game —it was turned into a wrestling match. Midd v Conn was vastly different.
Quote from: Garden12 on December 06, 2024, 02:37:56 AMIf the Conn keeper was replaced by someone slightly worse, that game could have easily finished 3-0 to W&L.
"And if a frog had wings he wouldn't bust his ass hopping."
-Nathan Arizona
Since we talked a lot about the ref in the first game and the VAR calls, I'm going to balance that out a bit. The ref and his assistants in the second game? Outstanding.
The center was consistent, he let shoulder to shoulder challenges and 50/50s go evenly for both teams all night. He gave cards on the appropriate plays. I can't really think of a missed call and I don't think he put a foot wrong the whole game. I can't even really remember too many 50/50 type out of bounds calls that were contested by the teams.
The crew's reward is that we don't really think about it or mention them, which is really what it should be. However, after the first game, I think they deserve some recognition for calling, as far as I could tell on the TV, pretty much a perfect game.
Kudos to the crew, especially the center ref. He did get the easier of the two games, but that doesn't always translate to a better job. Last night that was a very well officiated game.
We all create, maintain, and modify narratives to make and keep ourselves and our symbols (in this case our schools or children's schools) relevant. Everyone needs to be "seen," and if you're not invested in being seen you're either the most fake-healthy person on the planet or you've just plain given up.
If being relevant means leaning into some huge win that happened 30 years ago along with the secret society handshake, then so be it.
If being relevant means referencing my own kid yet again, just in case anyone missed it the prior dozen times, then so be it.
If leaning into grievance works, then go for it.
In response to a question about one title versus 3 F4 appearances in 4 years, our W&L friend endorsed the title. And yes, absolutely, you're playing to try and win a title...just like 400 other schools (although in reality probably only 50-60 actually think that could happen).
However, if the question is changed slightly to what is more impressive, a title or 3 F4s in 4 years (or 4 in 5), then I'm choosing the latter. The number of schools that have accomplished the latter, at least over the past 20 years, is tiny. Is it fair that I unconsciously credit W&L more than Amherst on this? Probably...but I also identify more with W&L's story because, rightly or wrongly, I think that could have been/should have been MY team. And it's not like W&L has been disrespected as a program, but no one, including their most fervent fans (other than the nostradamus Another Mom), ever dreamed W&L would achieve 3 F4s in 4 years. In fact, I think most would have more likely predicted a single appearance or a single national title. W&L is the team I envy and that (metaphorically) keeps me up at night. A few plays here and there...and that could have been me! Any unfairness to Amherst, aside from the typical critiques of the Amherst machine, likely is a result of us expecting Amherst to be here every year or at least every other year. We are just winding down from having that expectation every year with Messiah and Tufts. Think about that and what level of achievement that is...and, again, achievement with or without any titles...when a program is so strong most of us would predict Amherst to get here again next year...and the one after that.
This is not imo anything close to a "Buffalo Bills" story (and I'm not entirely convinced that the Buffalo Bills story is the "Buffalo Bills story"). There was no choking, by W&L or Midd, or Amherst in past years. It is easy to fall into the "it's a pattern" trap when actually individual games can turn on one or two plays or you advance or don't in PKs or you catch a bad break and concede an OT goal. If you looked inside each Tufts title, you could underscore multiple plays that could have gone either way or involved some good fortune. At the start of each Tufts season, other than maybe one, a title would have seemed unlikely. Even this year there were discussions about one team versus the field. Mary Wash was about as good a candidate for take the team versus the field, and look what happened. This year's best team is sitting at home.
Checking in from Vegas here. Managed to land and get to the stadium in plenty of time to catch both games.
The field - definitely not the best. I did not think it was awful, but it was not conducive to great passing. A bit choppy and uneven.
I missed EnmoreKitten's well executed goal. You see, I had read the amazing review of the bathrooms from EnmoreCat and decided I need to take a personal tour myself and while I was perusing the double toilet stall men's room, Amherst took the lead. Midd equalized a few minutes later on a really well taken side volley.
I will have difficult time putting into words the emotions surrounding the penalty. I think most officials do not want to be part of (or THE) story and in this case, the referee failed. I also believe that context is key. A 1-1 game in the second half of the national semifinal, imo, should not be decided by a questionable VAR reviewed penalty decision. I know people will say "a foul is a foul", but we all know that the standard for a foul in the box is WAY different than one for a foul in midfield and in this case, unless the Amherst player loses a leg, or an obvious handball (think Martin Odegaard, which wasn't actually called a penalty in that Liverpool-Arsenal game). But to have a game essentially decided on an iffy call like that is awfully disappointing.
Hats off to Nuhu who executed it, but the end result has left a poor feeling. I feel Midd and Amherst should have allowed their play on the field for the last 25 min or so (and maybe OT) be the deciding factor in that contest. Not a ref spending 5 minutes at a small video monitor. It wasn't called on the field. The ref had good proximity to the play. Just doesn't sit well with this D3 athletics individual.
Game two. W&L was awesome. Struggled a bit early, but after Rye Jaran picked up a knock mid first half and had to come off, the Generals really controlled the midfield. Really strong game plan and execution by the Generals players and staff.
I do feel the ref allowed some players looking for contact to secure some fouls and free kicks, but beyond that, it did not play a significant role in the outcome. Horvath-Diano's free kick and Silverster's incredible game were the difference. I feel for the W&L players, coaches, parents, and families b/c I am sure they look at that game and feel they deserved a different result.
I also spent all night looking for a tall guy saying "mate" getting worked over by the UNLV campus police with a taser, but failed in my mission to provide video evidence for the group of readers here.
MunnyTim, I think I was being protected by the Amherst Faithful all adopting Australian accents to conceal me from the UNLV authorities. I will say that I am confident a fair few of the Midd supporters may have been able to pick me out in a line up.
I appreciate everyone's take on the W&L Conn game, and agree with most of the posters. I will say the Conn goal was gorgeous, and at least from my angle, unsaveable. The statistics tell the tale of the rest of the game -- W&L dominated on shots, corners, possession. Conn on number of fouls, and saves.
I don't know why Paul Newman thinks I predicted this -- I guess I didn't post my thoughts, but I was extremely doubtful they would even make the tournament for most of the season! However, over the season they have really come into their own, and just got better and better. Coach Shabazz is one to watch -- he is really, really talented, and the boys love him (so do the parents!)
While it wasn't the Cinderella story I was hoping for, the boys played well, and with heart, and in the end that's all you can ask of a team.
AM...maybe not a prediction but early on after the slow start and after W&L won a game or two against iirc some fairly mundane competition you posted that the team was starting to give you the same vibe as last year's team. And at the time, that seemed like a pretty wild stretch...and then you're in Vegas after emerging through a gauntlet to get there.
Congrats to your son on a fabulous W&L career.
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 06, 2024, 09:20:37 AMIn response to a question about one title versus 3 F4 appearances in 4 years, our W&L friend endorsed the title. And yes, absolutely, you're playing to try and win a title...just like 400 other schools (although in reality probably only 50-60 actually think that could happen).
However, if the question is changed slightly to what is more impressive, a title or 3 F4s in 4 years (or 4 in 5), then I'm choosing the latter. The number of schools that have accomplished the latter, at least over the past 20 years, is tiny. Is it fair that I unconsciously credit W&L more than Amherst on this? Probably...but I also identify more with W&L's story because, rightly or wrongly, I think that could have been/should have been MY team. And it's not like W&L has been disrespected as a program, but no one, including their most fervent fans (other than the nostradamus Another Mom), ever dreamed W&L would achieve 3 F4s in 4 years. In fact, I think most would have more likely predicted a single appearance or a single national title. W&L is the team I envy and that (metaphorically) keeps me up at night. A few plays here and there...and that could have been me! Any unfairness to Amherst, aside from the typical critiques of the Amherst machine, likely is a result of us expecting Amherst to be here every year or at least every other year. We are just winding down from having that expectation every year with Messiah and Tufts. Think about that and what level of achievement that is...and, again, achievement with or without any titles...when a program is so strong most of us would predict Amherst to get here again next year...and the one after that.
So if I'm reading this right, the question is would you rather be W&L or St. Olaf, and which is more impressive? I have 2 different answers. I'd rather be St. Olaf as I said. The goal is a national title. While all the players should be rightly proud of their seasons, they will look back on the Final Four and Championship games they lost as regrets. The season? Sure, super proud. The last game will forever be a regret though. How much less proud are you of an Elite 8 than a Final Four? I suspect not much. But an Elite Eight vs a Conference Title? I think most teams will take the Conference Title. Winning the title is the memory you strive for.
Now, what is more impressive? A single great run resulting in a title or a consistent run of Final Fours? I think the consistency is more impressive. Lets face it, there is a bit of luck in every tournament run. Last night, if Conn's goalkeeper gets his hand 1/100th or maybe even less of a second later to that ball, it goes off the crossbar and in, physics. If the free kick is spotted one yard deeper to the end line, the angle he scored from is 100x harder. That's the randomness, and that doesn't even count winning in PKs, which every team in the Final Four did at least once to get there. PKs are almost random in outcomes. A team like Hopkins can score all of them in one game and almost none the next. Same with W&L last year knocking out CC and then completely flubbing against Amherst.
But the consistency to get to the Final Four over a period of 4 or 6 or 8 years implies a program level of talent, from the coach as a tactician and recruiter, to multiple classes of players, to resources and commitment from the school to the team. A single great class can make a run, but a great program does it over and over. Even if the vagaries are against it in the final step or two, appearing year after year that deep. overcoming those vagaries in the earlier rounds and even throughout the season, depth to cover injuries that can happen any given year, player leadership to be passed down year after year... these are just things that a team on a single run doesn't deal with and programs on a multi-year run do.
So I'm more impressed by Amherst and W&L than I am by St. Olaf, but I'd still rather have the title.
Quote from: Another Mom on December 06, 2024, 10:27:18 AMI appreciate everyone's take on the W&L Conn game, and agree with most of the posters. I will say the Conn goal was gorgeous, and at least from my angle, unsaveable. The statistics tell the tale of the rest of the game -- W&L dominated on shots, corners, possession. Conn on number of fouls, and saves.
I don't know why Paul Newman thinks I predicted this -- I guess I didn't post my thoughts, but I was extremely doubtful they would even make the tournament for most of the season! However, over the season they have really come into their own, and just got better and better. Coach Shabazz is one to watch -- he is really, really talented, and the boys love him (so do the parents!)
While it wasn't the Cinderella story I was hoping for, the boys played well, and with heart, and in the end that's all you can ask of a team.
It didn't seem possible sitting at Sewanee and Covenant that this team would look so good by the end of the season. We certainly discussed some doubts. Really a dream progression for the boys and it shows so much character how they grew as a team and with the coach. Congratulations to your son, all the seniors who have been so instrumental over the years, and the rest of the team. A high bar has been set.
As an alum I've loved being able to share these seasons with my sons, get to a few games, and watch these young men play. For me, athletics has always been a big part of my connection to W&L, and I appreciate all of the student athletes who help keep that connection alive.
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 06, 2024, 10:40:21 AMAM...maybe not a prediction but early on after the slow start and after W&L won a game or two against iirc some fairly mundane competition you posted that the team was starting to give you the same vibe as last year's team. And at the time, that seemed like a pretty wild stretch...and then you're in Vegas after emerging through a gauntlet to get there.
Congrats to your son on a fabulous W&L career.
Ah, true. I guess I realized the team wasn't nearly as bad as they looked after their first few games! I think people wrote them off after some early interest; and then (almost?) nobody watched their games as they improved.
jknezek, I certainly try to milk numerous Sweet 16s and a couple of Elite 8s as far as I can, but from my vantage point the gulf between the Elite 8 and making a F4 is huge. Would be curious to hear Hop92's take here. The F4 is its own breakthrough. No one cares that you lost the Elite 8 in PKs or on a 109th minute fluky, defensive flub.
For me the multiple F4s are more impressive than one title...and imo much harder to achieve.
Game 2 Thoughts:
1. One team executed a solid game plan and made an AA look pedestrian forcing the balance of the confederate army to try and defeat them, and they could not.
2. One goalie was better than the other
3. What a banger of a free kick caused by an unnecessary foul.
4. Only 1 stat matters.
AM, it was Oct. 12...after a 3-0 win over CNU...so not a mundane win even though CNU faltered in the second half of the season. That was preceded in September by a few posts basically asking "what's going on here...did everyone already write W&L off? Starting to look like the team I expected."
I may be an outlier here, but conference titles mean almost nothing to me...and I'm saying that despite my team winning a bunch of them over 10 years. I can see why the NESCAC tourney means a lot to NESCAC folks, similar to how the ACC tourney in bball used to be viewed as a huge event, but ultimately conference titles just don't mean that much from my pov.
Quote from: jknezek on December 06, 2024, 08:54:51 AMSince we talked a lot about the ref in the first game and the VAR calls, I'm going to balance that out a bit. The ref and his assistants in the second game? Outstanding.
The center was consistent, he let shoulder to shoulder challenges and 50/50s go evenly for both teams all night. He gave cards on the appropriate plays. I can't really think of a missed call and I don't think he put a foot wrong the whole game. I can't even really remember too many 50/50 type out of bounds calls that were contested by the teams.
The crew's reward is that we don't really think about it or mention them, which is really what it should be. However, after the first game, I think they deserve some recognition for calling, as far as I could tell on the TV, pretty much a perfect game.
Kudos to the crew, especially the center ref. He did get the easier of the two games, but that doesn't always translate to a better job. Last night that was a very well officiated game.
I especially appreciated the moment when he appeared to tell the CC captain to go calm down his centre back before he received a second yellow.
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 06, 2024, 11:04:24 AMAM, it was Oct. 12...after a 3-0 win over CNU...so not a mundane win even though CNU faltered in the second half of the season. That was preceded in September by a few posts basically asking "what's going on here...did everyone already write W&L off? Starting to look like the team I expected."
Ha, well I guess I was right! 😅
Quote from: Another Mom on December 06, 2024, 11:19:23 AMQuote from: PaulNewman on December 06, 2024, 11:04:24 AMAM, it was Oct. 12...after a 3-0 win over CNU...so not a mundane win even though CNU faltered in the second half of the season. That was preceded in September by a few posts basically asking "what's going on here...did everyone already write W&L off? Starting to look like the team I expected."
Ha, well I guess I was right! 😅
Touche!
Quote from: SKUD on December 06, 2024, 11:02:05 AMGame 2 Thoughts:
1. One team executed a solid game plan and made an AA look pedestrian forcing the balance of the confederate army to try and defeat them, and they could not.
2. One goalie was better than the other
3. What a banger of a free kick caused by an unnecessary foul.
4. Only 1 stat matters.
Regarding the unnecessary foul, I agree it was unnecessary...and iirc that was also a foul the ref almost didn't call and/or it was a delayed call.
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 06, 2024, 10:57:05 AMjknezek, I certainly try to milk numerous Sweet 16s and a couple of Elite 8s as far as I can, but from my vantage point the gulf between the Elite 8 and making a F4 is huge. Would be curious to hear Hop92's take here. The F4 is its own breakthrough. No one cares that you lost the Elite 8 in PKs or on a 109th minute fluky, defensive flub.
For me the multiple F4s are more impressive than one title...and imo much harder to achieve.
There is something like 415 teams playing men's D3 soccer. If you make the sweet 16 consistently, you are in the top 4% of teams in the division. You should milk Sweet 16 and Elite Eight appearances. They are huge accomplishments and usually imply that not only did you make the tournament, but you beat at least one very good team in the tournament (first round games can sometimes be excluded).
I'm not sure there is much of a talent difference between teams in the Sweet Sixteen and the Final Four. For example, I'm pretty sure Williams beats Dickinson. But then why do the same NESCAC teams keep appearing and others don't? Because the NESCAC teams play, and throughout a grueling season, refine a style that wins tournaments. Direct, physical, shut down defense, speedy offense. They combine that style with top tier players with their academic recruiting advantage and, with limited practices and lots of substitutions, teams that don't play this style are at a disadvantage, even if they have a similar level of talent.
Messiah made a more beautiful style work for years by having a large talent advantage. They had a hook that allowed them to recruit above the D3 level. Not at the top, they recruited above it. I think the level of the top of D3 has caught up and, while I find Messiah's style more attractive than the NESCAC's, I don't think it can be dominant without players a few steps above.
The difference between the consistent Sweet Sixteen and Elite Eight teams and the rotating cast of NESCAC's that get to and win the Championship is thin on talent. But it can be large on style, and it's definitely large on grueling refinement through the season.
But yeah, I'd milk those Sweet Sixteens and Elite Eights. While it may be disappointing to feel plateau'd at that level, it puts you in some very rare air.
I mean, from the perspective of a fan/alum of a team that consistently gets sent home the first weekend (boo!)... Consistently getting to the 2nd weekend is absolutely something to beat your chest and hold your head high about.
Obvious point: Making the tournament consistently is the first sign that a program has cemented elite status. That's hard to do and is a sign the program has "figured it out." I'm very happy Hopkins is in that position. But it's super frustrating to be knocking on what feels like a bolt-locked door.
With 2 more games on the Vegas field today I am curious how it plays on Saturday and Sunday for the championships.
As someone who has a kid that had a F4 followed by 2 S16, it is quite an achievement to make the F4 - very difficult. The UMW F4 team was not nearly as good as the two S16 teams but you being really good is not enough - you need luck/fortune/moment of brilliance and a hot keeper to make it to the 4.
PN delay (vs continuation) was curious on that one. I felt the 2nd game crew was solid overall .
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 06, 2024, 10:57:05 AMjknezek, I certainly try to milk numerous Sweet 16s and a couple of Elite 8s as far as I can, but from my vantage point the gulf between the Elite 8 and making a F4 is huge. Would be curious to hear Hop92's take here. The F4 is its own breakthrough. No one cares that you lost the Elite 8 in PKs or on a 109th minute fluky, defensive flub.
For me the multiple F4s are more impressive than one title...and imo much harder to achieve.
As someone who lost the elite 8 (to Williams) at home in penalties, yes you are right. That was an amazing team we had that was technically undefeated that season, but no one really remembers besides the men you battled with.
Final 4 is a different animal.
A bigger deal.
What Final 4 and Elite 8 losses do though is get a team pissed enough to come back with even more potent venom for a title run.
Richard Stocton boys did this after their finL 4 loss and became a Championship team not long after.
Amherst is in a strange position of being a champion but also failing to climb the hill several years.
Many programs have 1 title... when you get that second star is when you are in that next level company of Wheaton/Messiah/Tufts.
This is what is at stake for both finalists this weekend.
Lots of intriguing discussion here. Bottom line question seems to be: What level of achievement in a season is garnered as a success and can leave one feeling fulfilled when they look back on their career?
I agree with PN about conference titles, unless you are a program that isn't expected to win the conference and you can then hang your hat on that achievement. For perennial national contenders, a conference title will feel nice, but you won't be recalling conference championships when speaking to friends and family about fond college memories.
I do believe in a lot of cases it will be a milking of those E8, S16, and even NCAA tournament appearances, depending on the history of the school. I think it feels nice on a personal level to recall a F4, E8 or S16 achievement when talking to outsiders who want to hear about your college experience, but inwardly there will always be some longing of having made it to that next step that you just couldn't quite achieve.
I'm sure players at schools like Tufts, Amherst and Messiah feel some level of disappointment with anything less than a F4 or National title, simply due to the reputation of previous dynasties.
jknezek, I don't disagree with any of that. It all depends where you're sitting and when. Yes, those things are great, but just as some are saying getting to a F4 is not enough one can feel the same way after near-perennial Sweet 16 runs. I imagine there was a huge difference for you when W&L first got over the hump to reach their first F4 I think after beating Messiah in Elite 8. If they lose that game, I'm not sure you're savoring an Elite 8 exit, at least not in the moment.
To no one in particular...
So you're saying I don't have to feel bad about myself?
I don't have to ingest repeated failures to reach the F4 or win a title as a personal narcissistic injury?
Same for fans/parents/alums of Midd, W&L, Hopkins, F&M, Cortland, Rowan, GAC, Babson, JCU, ONU, etc, etc?
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 06, 2024, 12:23:58 PMTo no one in particular...
So you're saying I don't have to feel bad about myself?
I don't have to ingest repeated failures to reach the F4 or win a title as a personal narcissistic injury?
Same for fans/parents/alums of Midd, W&L, Hopkins, F&M, Cortland, Rowan, GAC, Babson, JCU, ONU, etc, etc?
There are many quality clubs that compete for the Champions League that have never won it. Needless to say, they are still widely regarded as a world powerhouses.
Some clubs have title winning dynasties from past or present (Real Madrid, Bayern, Liverpool, AC Milan) and others are still hoping that one year will be the special year they clinch their first UCL title (Arsenal, Atletico Madrid, PSG).
*Please excuse this somewhat sorry analogy. D3 soccer is obviously different than the UCL
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 06, 2024, 12:09:36 PMjknezek, I don't disagree with any of that. It all depends where you're sitting and when. Yes, those things are great, but just as some are saying getting to a F4 is not enough one can feel the same way after near-perennial Sweet 16 runs. I imagine there was a huge difference for you when W&L first got over the hump to reach their first F4 I think after beating Messiah in Elite 8. If they lose that game, I'm not sure you're savoring an Elite 8 exit, at least not in the moment.
I'm not savoring last night's loss either, not in the moment. But as an alum, I'm pretty happy with national relevance. I think I have just enough of a jaundiced eye about soccer to know that you need some luck. It was with W&L this year with the PKs, it abandoned them last year on Pks. Let's be honest, what was the difference between a second round exit and a Final Four this year? A couple of mis-struck Pks by Johns Hopkins.
When you think about that being the sole difference in a season most would have considered ok and one that we all consider outstanding, I just have a hard time distinguishing between "worth of a season" or "celebration of a season" having much difference between a Sweet Sixteen and an Elite Eight, or an Elite Eight and a Final Four.
The margin is so small and so capricious that it's hard for me to say "heck yeah" to one and "well, bummer" to the other.
I think about W&L's 3 FF4 results, they took Conn to OT, then were eliminated by Amherst on PKs after storming back from a deficit, and then lost to Conn in regulation. You'd think that I'd consider the Amherst game the best, but I don't. I think the only time they were the "better team" on the field was last night. Conn was simply better a few years ago and W&L was on the back foot a lot of the game. Amherst blew the doors off W&L last year in the first half, and when they got the big lead took their foot off and lost concentration. Kudos to the Generals for fighting back and even having the better of it through OT, but that first half they were out-matched.
Last night? Well, they had control of the game except for about 20 or 25 minutes in the first half when it was even. Conn kept them from scoring and the goalie stood on his head a few times. It happens in soccer. But last night was their strongest Final Four game even though it had the "worst" result. The same is true with tournament results. Your "great" season isn't always dependent on how you finish, because soccer is cruel. So I just struggle when people are disappointed with consistent Sweet Sixteens and Elite Eights. I get wanting to go further, I certainly wanted the Generals to have a National Title, or even another game. But I don't feel like they are "stuck." I just hope they will maintain national relevance and maybe get another shot at a title.
As for conference titles, unless you've won 5 or 6 in a row and plow through your regular season most years, I still think they mean a lot. Titles matter for most teams and players. You want to be a champion. If it's a one-team league, Messiah, well, it is what it is. But for the NESCAC schools, the ODAC, the Centennial and many more conferences, it's still a big deal. Maybe less to alums than to the players, but the players want, and celebrate, those banners.
That's my take on it anyway.
Completely agree with everything you wrote @jknezek.
And now my thoughts start to turn to the Final. Will Conn's gk be enough to deny Amherst the title? I am dubious.
Quote from: Another Mom on December 06, 2024, 12:45:31 PMAnd now my thoughts start to turn to the Final. Will Conn's gk be enough to deny Amherst the title? I am dubious.
I suspect Conn will have a better "field game" against Amherst than they did last night. Jaran being available and effective would be significant. It may come down to size...and the Kitten...but I would be extremely hesitant to bet against Conn.
Quote from: jknezek on December 06, 2024, 12:38:11 PMAs for conference titles, unless you've won 5 or 6 in a row and plow through your regular season most years, I still think they mean a lot. Titles matter for most teams and players. You want to be a champion. If it's a one-team league, Messiah, well, it is what it is. But for the NESCAC schools, the ODAC, the Centennial and many more conferences, it's still a big deal. Maybe less to alums than to the players, but the players want, and celebrate, those banners.
That's my take on it anyway.
That's fair, and actually a great point.
Quote from: Mr_November on December 06, 2024, 12:32:17 PMQuote from: PaulNewman on December 06, 2024, 12:23:58 PMTo no one in particular...
So you're saying I don't have to feel bad about myself?
I don't have to ingest repeated failures to reach the F4 or win a title as a personal narcissistic injury?
Same for fans/parents/alums of Midd, W&L, Hopkins, F&M, Cortland, Rowan, GAC, Babson, JCU, ONU, etc, etc?
There are many quality clubs that compete for the Champions League that have never won it. Needless to say, they are still widely regarded as a world powerhouses.
Some clubs have title winning dynasties from past or present (Real Madrid, Bayern, Liverpool, AC Milan) and others are still hoping that one year will be the special year they clinch their first UCL title (Arsenal, Atletico Madrid, PSG).
*Please excuse this somewhat sorry analogy. D3 soccer is obviously different than the UCL
No, but football is football and the analogy applies.
It is like Jose Mourinho said. Football Tradition.
"Whatever man has done Man can do" - Marcus Garvey.
The reason that Liverpool or Tufts players can put on a jersey and know they are competing for the entire thing is because of football tradition.
The blood sweat and tears don't wash out of the jerseys... they stay there and give the future players a quality you cannot quantify.
What the Conn boys did a few years ago is giving CC confidence going into the season and the game.
There are many great programs that have not won yet. Oneonta/U of R Ithaca to name a few from my neck of the woods. They are great programs but I guarantee that once they win that first chip the future players will use it as a confidence boost going forward... Just like the Ajax/Man U/Chelsea boys.
Ditto, especially the part about conference titles. Most teams post their goals on a white board or team notebook or whatever and winning the conference title is absolutely a huge deal to them.
You can see it the celebrations after they win. They go nuts.
To some of us old heads who have seen those banners hung a number of times, we might be less impacted. That's just a natural reaction. But there are folks in the Centennial who see this post as fairly annoying. Not my intent, but I would understand someone taking issue with the perceived arrogance.
Quote from: Another Mom on December 06, 2024, 12:42:21 PMCompletely agree with everything you wrote @jknezek.
jknezek, to borrow your "best decade" argument, I think it depends where you are at. If you've never made tournament then make the tournament. If never to a Sweet 16 then a Sweet 16 is a major milestone and so on.
My son's class was mediocre their first two years...junior year made tourney, upset ONU and Wheaton back to back and then epic (loss) Sweet 16 game at Messiah. Senior year ranked #2 most of season and a big favorite but lose in Sweet 16 on home field to nemesis OWU (OWU's last F4 season). Kenyon has made tournament every year since with more Sweet 16s, a couple of Elite 8s, and multiple PK losses. Very similar to where Midd was but with an overall stronger decade so in some ways waiting even longer to break through. The Elite 8 in most college sports is monumental, precisely because the margins are so tight and sometimes the "best" team doesn't win, but the difference between editing at that juncture and winning a trip to the F4 imo is massive (and overly massive).
Quote from: Hopkins92 on December 06, 2024, 12:53:47 PMDitto, especially the part about conference titles. Most teams post their goals on a white board or team notebook or whatever and winning the conference title is absolutely a huge deal to them.
You can see it the celebrations after they win. They go nuts.
To some of us old heads who have seen those banners hung a number of times, we might be less impacted. That's just a natural reaction. But there are folks in the Centennial who see this post as fairly annoying. Not my intent, but I would understand someone taking issue with the perceived arrogance.
Quote from: Another Mom on December 06, 2024, 12:42:21 PMCompletely agree with everything you wrote @jknezek.
Anytime you win a trophy and can hang a banner it is a big deal no matter what level you are talking about
Quote from: Hopkins92 on December 06, 2024, 12:53:47 PMDitto, especially the part about conference titles. Most teams post their goals on a white board or team notebook or whatever and winning the conference title is absolutely a huge deal to them.
You can see it the celebrations after they win. They go nuts.
To some of us old heads who have seen those banners hung a number of times, we might be less impacted. That's just a natural reaction. But there are folks in the Centennial who see this post as fairly annoying. Not my intent, but I would understand someone taking issue with the perceived arrogance.
Quote from: Another Mom on December 06, 2024, 12:42:21 PMCompletely agree with everything you wrote @jknezek.
I think most of the discussion on this topic is really about the psychological proposition that happiness is all relative or relative to expectations, which in the context of a team or program might be relative to what you and your cohort have done and what your school's teams have done in past years. If Cal Tech Coach Duncan Gillis had written on the whiteboard the first practice that first season that the goal was a national championship or even a conference championship (or even making the conference tournament), it might have been so unfathomable that it would have failed to motivate the players. I'm sure he set goals that would not have satisfied most teams. For many, many teams, the season is absolutely a success if the team just makes the conference tournament or beats its biggest rival. The burden for a successful program is the goals get bigger and the chances that you will reach them get smaller. It is far more likely that every season the coach will have to console the team and convince them that they had a great season even though they failed to achieve their goals.
Honestly, every coach has to be jealous of Wisconsin-Superior. This is the most successful season ever for them and they improved from last season in a very measurable way. They beat defending national champion St. Olaf and qualified for the Sweet Sixteen for the first time in program history. Last season, they lost in the first round of the NCAA tournament to St Olaf by a 7-1 score. That is a massive turnaround. They might have a few regrets if Amherst wins, knowing that they scored two goals on them and took them to the last minute or two of double OT before losing, but the glow of getting farther than you have before and improving over last season is a far different feeling than the relief of doing what you were expected to do.
Quote from: Kuiper on December 06, 2024, 01:31:26 PMQuote from: Hopkins92 on December 06, 2024, 12:53:47 PMDitto, especially the part about conference titles. Most teams post their goals on a white board or team notebook or whatever and winning the conference title is absolutely a huge deal to them.
You can see it the celebrations after they win. They go nuts.
To some of us old heads who have seen those banners hung a number of times, we might be less impacted. That's just a natural reaction. But there are folks in the Centennial who see this post as fairly annoying. Not my intent, but I would understand someone taking issue with the perceived arrogance.
Quote from: Another Mom on December 06, 2024, 12:42:21 PMCompletely agree with everything you wrote @jknezek.
I think most of the discussion on this topic is really about the psychological proposition that happiness is all relative or relative to expectations, which in the context of a team or program might be relative to what you and your cohort have done and what your school's teams have done in past years. If Cal Tech Coach Duncan Gillis had written on the whiteboard the first practice that first season that the goal was a national championship or even a conference championship (or even making the conference tournament), it might have been so unfathomable that it would have failed to motivate the players. I'm sure he set goals that would not have satisfied most teams. For many, many teams, the season is absolutely a success if the team just makes the conference tournament or beats its biggest rival. The burden for a successful program is the goals get bigger and the chances that you will reach them get smaller. It is far more likely that every season the coach will have to console the team and convince them that they had a great season even though they failed to achieve their goals.
Honestly, every coach has to be jealous of Wisconsin-Superior. This is the most successful season ever for them and they improved from last season in a very measurable way. They beat defending national champion St. Olaf and qualified for the Sweet Sixteen for the first time in program history. Last season, they lost in the first round of the NCAA tournament to St Olaf by a 7-1 score. That is a massive turnaround. They might have a few regrets if Amherst wins, knowing that they scored two goals on them and took them to the last minute or two of double OT before losing, but the glow of getting farther than you have before and improving over last season is a far different feeling than the relief of doing what you were expected to do.
agree 100% that it is all about expectations. for my UMW example the guys got to a final four two years ago and followed that back up with what they would say are disappointing S16 appearances since the Natty was their realistic goal. Now if you had reversed the order and this year was their F4 shot then i am sure they would felt less disappointment
Following up on Kuiper above the answer seems to be "it depends." I can concede that conference titles are important to coaches, players, and to some extent fans and family depending on where the program is at with such things. I certainly would prefer Kenyon winning the regular season and conference tourney but at this juncture I'm far more interested in whether that will translate to hosting and possibly hosting the second weekend.
Wow! What a last 5 years for top academic NESCACs. Athletes at Williams and Amherst really do it all, juggling such a hard class load with top-flight soccer. Listen to this stat: Williams or Amherst has been in the national final EACH of the last 5 years!!! Unbelievable
Do athletes at non-NESCAC schools that make tournament runs not juggle rigorous academics?
Nope not a one ;)
What's even more impressive is the athletes at Williams and Amherst are doing it all without any sort of support or safety net. We know they're disadvantaged youth who have overcome insurmountable odds to attend these prestigious institutions.
Quote from: paclassic89 on December 06, 2024, 03:08:06 PMWhat's even more impressive is the athletes at Williams and Amherst are doing it all without any sort of support or safety net. We know they're disadvantaged youth who have overcome insurmountable odds to attend these prestigious institutions.
Chuckle out loud.
Quote from: paclassic89 on December 06, 2024, 03:08:06 PMWhat's even more impressive is the athletes at Williams and Amherst are doing it all without any sort of support or safety net. We know they're disadvantaged youth who have overcome insurmountable odds to attend these prestigious institutions.
They are disadvantaged because extreme privilege is an awesome and often incalculably unfair burden...and frankly, if you don't understand, you're just not privileged enough to understand. The pressures to excel at the highest levels and to further advance the family legacy are immense.
Quote from: Kuiper on December 06, 2024, 01:31:26 PMQuote from: Hopkins92 on December 06, 2024, 12:53:47 PMDitto, especially the part about conference titles. Most teams post their goals on a white board or team notebook or whatever and winning the conference title is absolutely a huge deal to them.
You can see it the celebrations after they win. They go nuts.
To some of us old heads who have seen those banners hung a number of times, we might be less impacted. That's just a natural reaction. But there are folks in the Centennial who see this post as fairly annoying. Not my intent, but I would understand someone taking issue with the perceived arrogance.
Quote from: Another Mom on December 06, 2024, 12:42:21 PMCompletely agree with everything you wrote @jknezek.
I think most of the discussion on this topic is really about the psychological proposition that happiness is all relative or relative to expectations, which in the context of a team or program might be relative to what you and your cohort have done and what your school's teams have done in past years. If Cal Tech Coach Duncan Gillis had written on the whiteboard the first practice that first season that the goal was a national championship or even a conference championship (or even making the conference tournament), it might have been so unfathomable that it would have failed to motivate the players. I'm sure he set goals that would not have satisfied most teams. For many, many teams, the season is absolutely a success if the team just makes the conference tournament or beats its biggest rival. The burden for a successful program is the goals get bigger and the chances that you will reach them get smaller. It is far more likely that every season the coach will have to console the team and convince them that they had a great season even though they failed to achieve their goals.
Honestly, every coach has to be jealous of Wisconsin-Superior. This is the most successful season ever for them and they improved from last season in a very measurable way. They beat defending national champion St. Olaf and qualified for the Sweet Sixteen for the first time in program history. Last season, they lost in the first round of the NCAA tournament to St Olaf by a 7-1 score. That is a massive turnaround. They might have a few regrets if Amherst wins, knowing that they scored two goals on them and took them to the last minute or two of double OT before losing, but the glow of getting farther than you have before and improving over last season is a far different feeling than the relief of doing what you were expected to do.
I think the Jumbos are going to have a similar feeling, knowing that the national champ is either a team they gave the only loss to(Amherst), or haven't lost to in 3 years(Conn College), having gone out in both the NCAAs and NESCAC tourney on pens.
Quote from: paclassic89 on December 06, 2024, 03:08:06 PMWhat's even more impressive is the athletes at Williams and Amherst are doing it all without any sort of support or safety net. We know they're disadvantaged youth who have overcome insurmountable odds to attend these prestigious institutions.
You've clearly never been to Enmore, practically third world there, not an easy place to escape from.
Quote from: rdanie03 on December 06, 2024, 03:39:08 PMQuote from: Kuiper on December 06, 2024, 01:31:26 PMQuote from: Hopkins92 on December 06, 2024, 12:53:47 PMDitto, especially the part about conference titles. Most teams post their goals on a white board or team notebook or whatever and winning the conference title is absolutely a huge deal to them.
You can see it the celebrations after they win. They go nuts.
To some of us old heads who have seen those banners hung a number of times, we might be less impacted. That's just a natural reaction. But there are folks in the Centennial who see this post as fairly annoying. Not my intent, but I would understand someone taking issue with the perceived arrogance.
Quote from: Another Mom on December 06, 2024, 12:42:21 PMCompletely agree with everything you wrote @jknezek.
I think most of the discussion on this topic is really about the psychological proposition that happiness is all relative or relative to expectations, which in the context of a team or program might be relative to what you and your cohort have done and what your school's teams have done in past years. If Cal Tech Coach Duncan Gillis had written on the whiteboard the first practice that first season that the goal was a national championship or even a conference championship (or even making the conference tournament), it might have been so unfathomable that it would have failed to motivate the players. I'm sure he set goals that would not have satisfied most teams. For many, many teams, the season is absolutely a success if the team just makes the conference tournament or beats its biggest rival. The burden for a successful program is the goals get bigger and the chances that you will reach them get smaller. It is far more likely that every season the coach will have to console the team and convince them that they had a great season even though they failed to achieve their goals.
Honestly, every coach has to be jealous of Wisconsin-Superior. This is the most successful season ever for them and they improved from last season in a very measurable way. They beat defending national champion St. Olaf and qualified for the Sweet Sixteen for the first time in program history. Last season, they lost in the first round of the NCAA tournament to St Olaf by a 7-1 score. That is a massive turnaround. They might have a few regrets if Amherst wins, knowing that they scored two goals on them and took them to the last minute or two of double OT before losing, but the glow of getting farther than you have before and improving over last season is a far different feeling than the relief of doing what you were expected to do.
I think the Jumbos are going to have a similar feeling, knowing that the national champ is either a team they gave the only loss to(Amherst), or haven't lost to in 3 years(Conn College), having gone out in both the NCAAs and NESCAC tourney on pens.
haven't beaten Conn in 3 years either....last result was Conn win in 2021 NCAA's I believe.....
Quote from: SKUD on December 06, 2024, 11:44:34 AMPN delay (vs continuation) was curious on that one. I felt the 2nd game crew was solid overall .
Head ref in Midd-Amherst game was weak from the start. Let the Amherst boys have their way with physical play and Midd followed suit. #32 kicks Mid goalie in the head when it was clearly possessed by keeper. An automatic red but somehow he gives a yellow. Fine, he does not want to make such a big decision with so much on the line. Then he awards them a very weak pk. I have watched the reply endless times. there was no way there was sufficient conclusive evidence to award PK. Such a shame it had to end that way and not in the run of play. Honestly, he was very weak all around and should not be handling a semifinal game in national championships. I dont think he will be handling key matches anytime soon. at least I hope not. Other than that it was a hard fought game by both side, just unfortunate it ended the way it did.
Oh, and did I mention there was no camera behind Amherst net for good replay video, yet there was one behind Midd net. Even the NCAA official on hand agreed if they are going to do VAR it needs to be equitable. Alright, enough of the venting. Be well, and go Conn.
And you are an unbiased soccer fan right?
Women's D1 F4 features FOUR ACC squads. Stanford (new ACC member) didn't even make the ACC tournament (and the announcers noted that winning the ACC tourney might be tougher than winning national title). Stanford joined by Wake Forest (leading the Cardinals 1-0 under four min left), UNC, and Duke. Three of the four obviously very local in Cary, NC where it is a "feels colder" 35 degrees.
Wake just made first national final in their history. Picked preseason to finish 9th in the ACC.
Wake Forest star after match says "it took us four years to prove we're good."
Duke vs UNC next. Playing in their backyard. Doesn't get much better.
Paul Newman's NCOY picks...
1) Brandon Bianco
2) Jon Anderson
3) Lumumba Shabazz
4) Jason Kilby
5) Reuben Burk
Wild Cards...Casey Holm (UWEC), Paul McGinlay, Brent Ridenour (Franciscan), Francesco Cardillo (Buffalo State)
Addendum: Jorge Chapoy (Dickinson)....and someone may have to drop out of my top 5
In the women's bracket a dominant game from the Wash U Bears this evening. Strong strong possession game from the Bears and goals from three freshmen at the start of the second half. CNU had a whisper of a chance to get back into the game late when a 1v1 opportunity was blown offside. With that chance snuffed the Bears rolled to a 3-0 win.
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 06, 2024, 07:01:59 PMWomen's D1 F4 features FOUR ACC squads. Stanford (new ACC member) didn't even make the ACC tournament (and the announcers noted that winning the ACC tourney might be tougher than winning national title). Stanford joined by Wake Forest (leading the Cardinals 1-0 under four min left), UNC, and Duke. Three of the four obviously very local in Cary, NC where it is a "feels colder" 35 degrees.
Wake just made first national final in their history. Picked preseason to finish 9th in the ACC.
Yea "feels colder" 35 degrees because my thermometer reads 26 right now. The bright side is the forecast calls for clear skies and no precipitation until Monday when the temps get back to normal.
Northerners and MidWesterners feel free to laugh. But I will never forget the first winter I moved here from up north and a freak snow storm arrived mid day with about an inch of snow. It was Armageddon. I've never seen so many rear wheel drivers getting nowhere while panicking to pick up kids from early closed schools. I turned to a work colleague and asked him where were all the plows. His response was there is probably only one DOT plow and it would be somewhere in Charlotte. Oh and power lines here? All above ground.
The men's college cup is next Friday here in Cary. I may try to go if I can evade work and it is no longer a "feels cold" 35 degrees.
Perhaps the NCAA should consider a College Cup venue with warmer weather. Like Las Vegas?
The pitch in Vegas versus the pitch in Cary is like the difference between the picture of the toy on the side of the cereal box and the actual toy inside the box.
Taken in combination with the ESPN+ broadcast versus whatever the hell this is it really reflects how little the NCAA values DIII soccer.
Quote from: Little Giant 89 on December 06, 2024, 07:46:42 PMIn the women's bracket a dominant game from the Wash U Bears this evening. Strong strong possession game from the Bears and goals from three freshmen at the start of the second half. CNU had a whisper of a chance to get back into the game late when a 1v1 opportunity was blown offside. With that chance snuffed the Bears rolled to a 3-0 win.
Been watching Wash U all season. They are unstoppable.
And I thought CNU who I think is the second best team in the country, didn't stand a chance.
SC.
A little bit of Philadelphia press about the national championship game today
A Trio of Penn Fusion Alums Playing for National Championship with Connecticut College (https://philadelphiasoccernow.com/2024/12/07/penn-fusion-trio-playing-for-national-championship-with-connecticut-college/)
QuoteScoffone, a senior forward from Thornton, Pa. who graduated from Bayard Rustin High School, has led the Camels in goals this season with 10 and has 25 goals to his name for his career. He drew the foul that set up the game-winning free kick in the Camels 1-0 win over Washington and Lee in the semifinal. Jaran, a Downingtown West grad, has started every game this season and has three goals and three assists.
Scoffone and Jaran were teammates on Penn Fusion's 2002 ECNL team.
Gavin Mpiana, a native of South Africa, played for Penn Fusion's 2004 ECNL team and graduated from the Hill School. He's made 40 appearances for the Camels over his first two seasons and has 4 goals and an assist this year.
QuoteAmherst's lone championship came in 2015. One local connection on this year's team is Wilmington, Del. native Joseph Raymond. The reserve forward is the son of Ursuline Academy grad and former Stanford and WNBA center Valerie Whiting, a 2007 inductee into the Delaware Sports Hall of Fame.
A New London view (behind a paywall)
https://www.theday.com/sports/20241203/conn-college-heading-to-final-four-hoping-for-another-title/
A Massachusetts view
https://www.gazettenet.com/Amherst-College-battles-Connecticut-College-in-D3-national-championship-58341997
QuoteAlthough Amherst has lost its last three trips to the national championship bout, Mammoths head coach Justin Serpone said his team doesn't talk about previous seasons – even if it's for motivational purposes. They're only focused on what's in front of them, and right now, the Camels are the only thing separating Amherst and a second national title in the last 10 years.
"We're just focused on the next game, the one in front of us," Serpone said. "And that sounds like some sort of coach talk, but it's not. The only way to win single elimination tournaments is by focusing on what's in front of you. Climb the stair that's in front of you."
D3 football opening round is all on ESPN+ at least soccer is free to watch.
Paul Newman's very obvious keys to the championship match....
If I'm Amherst, leave no doubt. Come out flying and use physical superiority all over the pitch to overwhelm the Camels and force them to submit and tap out due to camel dehydration. Shellshock the Camels with two goals in first 25 minutes and a third 5 minutes into 2nd half.
If I'm the Camels, survive the initial Mammoths onslaught over first 15-20 minutes and ideally nick a goal in 1st half. The longer this game stays ultra-tight, advantage to Camels imo although Amherst has won a lot of tightly contested matches.
Can Amherst bury the Camels? I think there is a real chance...but thus far Amherst has not blown out anyone.
Program best decade on the line lol!
When is opening day for 2025???
And PLEASE....decide this one in regular time or OT.
As has been noted, the color commentator talks WAY.TOO.MUCH.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on December 07, 2024, 03:30:12 PMAs has been noted, the color commentator talks WAY.TOO.MUCH.
But where is our favorite Gettysburg "Voice of D3 Final 4" soccer announcer??
That Novak from England is a heckuva of a player. Never loses a ball or a challenge and almost always does something positive with the ball too. Same with Murphy. The Haberman kid for Conn is gonna be one of the best players in the country the next couple of years.
Reminiscent of the W&L game. Strong 10-12 minutes for Conn to start, and then pretty much all Amherst after that with Conn getting just enough occasional chances to think they will get one.
That Novak from England is a heckuva of a player. Never loses a ball or a challenge and almost always does something positive with the ball too. Same with Murphy. The Haberman kid for Conn is gonna be one of the best players in the country the next couple of years.
Reminiscent of the W&L game. Strong 10-12 minutes for Conn to start, and then pretty much all Amherst after that with Conn getting just enough occasional chances to think they will get one.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on December 07, 2024, 03:30:12 PMAs has been noted, the color commentator talks WAY.TOO.MUCH.
For me it's especially her fawning non-stop over every single player on the pitch and subs too...like all of them are Michael Jordan-level talented.
We should set up bingo cards with all the cliques. Always less is more. Totally takes away from the fun of watching.
These cannot be the best 2 teams in the country. I guess it gets result but some of the worst style of play stuff I've seen just lumping it long to nobody. Very limited technical ability on display outside of Amherst's striker and right winger.
LOL...the Kitten.
PKs....both teams looked like Kenyon.
Probably the worst national championship game I've ever seen and a terrible way to advertise division III soccer, but the final result is what matters is in the end.
Congratulations to Amherst but those have to be the worse pks I have seen from both teams. Congrats to Emmore Kitten for the winning PK.
Quote from: CarefreeTX on December 07, 2024, 05:21:27 PMThese cannot be the best 2 teams in the country. I guess it gets result but some of the worst style of play stuff I've seen just lumping it long to nobody. Very limited technical ability on display outside of Amherst's striker and right winger.
Precisely why I don't watch NESCAC games, especially Amherst. Such a shame too, because those teams are absolutely loaded with talented kids who can play.
Nonetheless, congrats to Amherst and especially the entire EnmoreFeline family!
Very stressful and hard to watch, even for a relative neutral.
Amherst I think outplayed Conn, aesthetics aside. Conn could not handle #27. More dangerous than Nuhu today.
Corners 17-0.
I mean, Amherst was by far the more threatening squad, but... Lumping the ball into the box 40 times with ensuing number of corner and goal kicks... Meh.
Congrats to Enmore, writ large, and the Prehistoric Elephants...
They are tearing down the lampposts and starting bonfires in Enmore.
I agree as to the really, really bad PKs. Gk saves were fine against subpar shots.
The rest was D3 soccer. It's called D3 for a reason.
Congratulations to Amherst.
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 07, 2024, 06:11:03 PMThey are tearing down the lampposts and starting bonfires in Enmore.
So is Enmore the Philly or Detroit of Australia??? When is the victory parade?
So many congratulations to EnmoreCat and his son!
You are all funny! No it is not pretty. However, the best athletes with the best strategy over the last 6 games just survived having to travel to Wisconsin and Las Vegas and won a natty. I don't like either team but you all sound like a bunch of snobs that would rather lose and play pretty than win.
The goal is to win a championship not entertain you with style.
Apropos of nothing, I called that EnmoreKitten's penalty would be top left. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Quote from: SKUD on December 07, 2024, 06:38:18 PMYou are all funny! No it is not pretty. However, the best athletes with the best strategy over the last 6 games just survived having to travel to Wisconsin and Las Vegas and won a natty. I don't like either team but you all sound like a bunch of snobs that would rather lose and play pretty than win.
The goal is to win a championship not entertain you with style.
100 percent this.
Never thought I would come to Amherst's defense (and not that they need me to do so), but all this griping about a terrible game, terrible style of play, etc, is the ultimate sour grapes. (And I know sour grapes!)
Look, as many here know, I was the first to excoriate Amherst in the past when I saw what appeared to be unconscionable unsportsmanlike behavior. (FWIW: Saw none of that Thursday or today; actually, the opposite.) But to bitch about style of play when a team does what 400 other teams would die to do? That is, win a national title. Get out of here with that. Seriously.
Congrats to the Lord Mammoths. And congrats to the Camels.
It was a
great championship, as far as I'm concerned.
There will be a delay for my final match report, there's way too much to soak in, but really appreciate the kind wishes. I'm just working out whether I should put it in the NESCAC forum, as it was really just another NESCAC game that carried an extra belt.
Not much media coverage of the championship game today, but I did find one social media account that posted about it
https://x.com/D3SoccerWorld/status/1865543200036868301
QuoteAmherst are national champions in 2024!!
They defeat Conn College on pk's after a nail biting 0-0 final. Congrats to the Mammoths for their 2nd title in program history!
Two incredibly strong programs on display, it was always going to be hard to separate them.
QuoteSince their first title in 2015, Amherst fell at the final hurdle 3 times in recent years. Tonight they get their hands on the prize in Las Vegas👏🏆
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 06, 2024, 07:15:14 PMPaul Newman's NCOY picks...
1) Brandon Bianco
2) Jon Anderson
3) Lumumba Shabazz
4) Jason Kilby
5) Reuben Burk
Wild Cards...Casey Holm (UWEC), Paul McGinlay, Brent Ridenour (Franciscan), Francesco Cardillo (Buffalo State)
Addendum: Jorge Chapoy (Dickinson)....and someone may have to drop out of my top 5
Justin Serpone. Losing a final and not only returning to a final but winning the next year is pretty impressive...
Quote from: futbolislife247365 on December 07, 2024, 08:22:58 PMQuote from: PaulNewman on December 06, 2024, 07:15:14 PMPaul Newman's NCOY picks...
1) Brandon Bianco
2) Jon Anderson
3) Lumumba Shabazz
4) Jason Kilby
5) Reuben Burk
Wild Cards...Casey Holm (UWEC), Paul McGinlay, Brent Ridenour (Franciscan), Francesco Cardillo (Buffalo State)
Addendum: Jorge Chapoy (Dickinson)....and someone may have to drop out of my top 5
Justin Serpone. Losing a final and not only returning to a final but winning the next year is pretty impressive...
He's in the next 5 for sure. Along with Elias. But doesn't rate top 5.
Quote from: futbolislife247365 on December 07, 2024, 08:22:58 PMQuote from: PaulNewman on December 06, 2024, 07:15:14 PMPaul Newman's NCOY picks...
1) Brandon Bianco
2) Jon Anderson
3) Lumumba Shabazz
4) Jason Kilby
5) Reuben Burk
Wild Cards...Casey Holm (UWEC), Paul McGinlay, Brent Ridenour (Franciscan), Francesco Cardillo (Buffalo State)
Addendum: Jorge Chapoy (Dickinson)....and someone may have to drop out of my top 5
Justin Serpone. Losing a final and not only returning to a final but winning the next year is pretty impressive...
That's fair...and he'll probably win the real official COY, as coaches of national champions often do. Serpone is not easy to place. I mean, didn't you expect Amherst to get back? I'd say they have a 50-60% chance of making the F4 most years and if you get there enough you;'re gonna win a few. There is no question what he has accomplished with the program is phenomenal.
Folks forget (or are too young) that Amherst used to be in the Middlebury role vis-a-vis Williams. At least a couple of years Amherst had the superior team, but Amherst just couldn't get past the Ephs. OT goals, falling in PKs, etc, etc. And then they finally got over the hump with Williams before starting similarly intense rivalries with Tufts and Midd.
Quote from: Futbolguy on December 06, 2024, 06:17:22 PMQuote from: SKUD on December 06, 2024, 11:44:34 AMPN delay (vs continuation) was curious on that one. I felt the 2nd game crew was solid overall .
Head ref in Midd-Amherst game was weak from the start. Let the Amherst boys have their way with physical play and Midd followed suit. #32 kicks Mid goalie in the head when it was clearly possessed by keeper. An automatic red but somehow he gives a yellow. Fine, he does not want to make such a big decision with so much on the line. Then he awards them a very weak pk. I have watched the reply endless times. there was no way there was sufficient conclusive evidence to award PK. Such a shame it had to end that way and not in the run of play. Honestly, he was very weak all around and should not be handling a semifinal game in national championships. I dont think he will be handling key matches anytime soon. at least I hope not. Other than that it was a hard fought game by both side, just unfortunate it ended the way it did.
Agreed. And they let him officiate today. That ref may have gifted Amherst a national title--had they played from 1-1 it could very well be a different day for the Mammoths. They had to know that back in their hotel after the semi, what an undeniable gift that PK was.
Connecticut College 0 Amherst 0 (Amherst win on penalties and are the 2024 D3 Champions)
Before today, one would have to go back eight games to find one between these teams where the margin was wider than a goal, so there was no doubt how evenly matched these two teams would be. Plus, the games are tough, I understand that's not everyone's thing, but the prevalence of NESCAC teams late in the tournament at least suggests to me that those who espouse a more "beautiful" game have work to do if they are going to materially impact this dominance. It's probably a good time to remind of my standard disclaimer, everything today is purely coming from the father of a player who in some parts of Vermont, is considered unable to read.
Conn were very good, I can't truly tell you who the two best teams in the country are, but I can tell you the two who before today had both managed to win five consecutive games in a very tough tournament. In addition, Conn won NESCAC and were clearly peaking at the right time. Their keeper caught everything, much to the chagrin of those with purple in their hearts and whilst I had a slight bias to Amherst maybe edging it, the gap was tiny.
Things rolled on and whilst both teams had chances, it did start to feel like we were heading towards OT and then it moved on to penalties. I suspect the Camels supporters possibly felt more confident, particularly given they had been successful in the NESCAC quarter final against Amherst on that basis, but of course, the Mammoths possess a senior who knows a bit about winning shoot outs too.
The details are by now well known and both sides had chances to finish things, but it took EnmoreKitten to do so and things proceeded to go just a little crazy. It will be no surprise that this correspondent was quite emotional as were all Mammoths supporters. It's a stunning way to finish a college career and of course, now goes down into folklore. I will have more to say about that.
To Conn, commiserations, an excellent team that works hard in transition and which just about handled what at times was a rampant Amherst attack. I am sure they will be around next year.
I do have to advise that yet again, I have petitioned the NCAA, this time about how Amherst is recorded as 2024 Champions. I have proposed that an asterisk is noted against it, reflecting the fact that so many posters here despised the manner in which it was achieved. I am not sure if it will be successful, but I do hope it might just placate both the casual and active Amhaters
Speaking of Amhaters, if you are one, now might be a good time to look away...
So onto the team, but firstly the coach. I'm never quite sure how much direct contact the more critical in here have actually had with him, but am feeling in a magnanimous mood today and will give them the benefit of the doubt. I will tell you that this is someone who deeply cares about the young men in his charge and has utmost respect in the Amherst community. That may not be enough for some, but it's more than enough for me. To lead a team that has made four of the last five finals, won one, plus two NESCACs and also achieved a 2015 title suggests he should be given much more credit than what he gets and I don't mean of the begrudging kind.
As for the team, well where do you start? Two key players injured permanently inside the first few weeks of the season should have been and was, a massive blow. But game after game this team found ways to win, not always to this correspondent's ultimate satisfaction, but good enough. Last year I described the team as efficient, this year, "resilient" would be my label. They mostly successfully defended slender leads and a team that let in four goals in the 2023 FF found a way to just concede one this time around, that speaks to the quality of the defence.
A skilfully assembled freshman class quickly paid dividends and today three of them played important roles and executed well. The sophomores, including one well deserved AA, played their part too, but my highest praise must go to the seniors. A superb group of young men who play with skill, make contests and most importantly, refuse to give up. Their resilience was something to behold. Along with a national title, this group also managed two NESCAC titles and multiple all NESCAC honours, that's a pretty outstanding return for four years.
This will be my last match report, but I know I will find it hard to stay away and I am sure I will occasionally opine. I know it's not long until August and the opportunity to speculate about this and that. I don't think anyone selected Amherst at any stage as the 2024 champion, but lots of others were nominated. Maybe we don't know as much as we think we do.
Final Foul Count: Conn 15 Amherst 14 quite ironic that the Mammoths lose this count on the most important game of the season
Bravo, proud to call you my friend! I am thankful to the board for that.
I know, I know.... Coach of the Year candidate....
Adrian's Charlie Miles. In 2023 the Bulldogs went 1-13-2. This year? 11-4-2 and 11-0-2 before their first loss.
SC
Amherst Tops Connecticut College in PKs for first National Championship since 2015 (https://www.soccerjournal.com/amherst-tops-connecticut-college-in-pks-for-first-national-championship-since-2015/?utm_source=ActiveCampaign&utm_medium=email&utm_content=Amherst%20captures%20national%20championship&utm_campaign=NE%20Soccer%2FDec%20%208%2C%202024%2FCambridge%20School%20of%20Weston)
QuoteSweet redemption.
The Amherst men's soccer team captured the 2024 Division 3 national championship on Saturday in dramatic fashion over a familiar foe.
The Mammoths defeated NESCAC rival Connecticut College, 4-3 in penalty kicks, after a scoreless triple overtime showdown in Las Vegas, Nev. It's Amherst's first championship title in nine years and second all-time, after the program fell in the 2023 NCAA championship game.
In fact, Amherst played its fourth final in five seasons and it was a rematch of the 2021 NCAA final that saw Connecticut College win in a PK shootout.
Quote from: EnmoreCat on December 07, 2024, 11:57:59 PMConnecticut College 0 Amherst 0 (Amherst win on penalties and are the 2024 D3 Champions)
I do have to advise that yet again, I have petitioned the NCAA, this time about how Amherst is recorded as 2024 Champions. I have proposed that an asterisk is noted against it, reflecting the fact that so many posters here despised the manner in which it was achieved. I am not sure if it will be successful, but I do hope it might just placate both the casual and active Amhaters
Speaking of Amhaters, if you are one, now might be a good time to look away...
So onto the team, but firstly the coach. I'm never quite sure how much direct contact the more critical in here have actually had with him, but am feeling in a magnanimous mood today and will give them the benefit of the doubt. I will tell you that this is someone who deeply cares about the young men in his charge and has utmost respect in the Amherst community. That may not be enough for some, but it's more than enough for me. To lead a team that has made four of the last five finals, won one, plus two NESCACs and also achieved a 2015 title suggests he should be given much more credit than what he gets and I don't mean of the begrudging kind.
As for the team, well where do you start? Two key players injured permanently inside the first few weeks of the season should have been and was, a massive blow. But game after game this team found ways to win, not always to this correspondent's ultimate satisfaction, but good enough. Last year I described the team as efficient, this year, "resilient" would be my label. They mostly successfully defended slender leads and a team that let in four goals in the 2023 FF found a way to just concede one this time around, that speaks to the quality of the defence.
A skilfully assembled freshman class quickly paid dividends and today three of them played important roles and executed well. The sophomores, including one well deserved AA, played their part too, but my highest praise must go to the seniors. A superb group of young men who play with skill, make contests and most importantly, refuse to give up. Their resilience was something to behold. Along with a national title, this group also managed two NESCAC titles and multiple all NESCAC honours, that's a pretty outstanding return for four years.
This will be my last match report, but I know I will find it hard to stay away and I am sure I will occasionally opine. I know it's not long until August and the opportunity to speculate about this and that. I don't think anyone selected Amherst at any stage as the 2024 champion, but lots of others were nominated. Maybe we don't know as much as we think we do.
Final Foul Count: Conn 15 Amherst 14 quite ironic that the Mammoths lose this count on the most important game of the season
Enmorecat, (and I'm guessing more than a handful of non-Amherst and non-bff fans feel similarly) I, non-begrudgingly, extend my heartiest congratulations and tip my cap to the 2024 World Champion Amherst Mammoths, especially the senior class, and especially to Justin Serpone, a truly mammoth legendary D3 coach who already has planted himself firmly in the discussion for greatest all-time D3 soccer skipper. Mild embellishment, but all truthful.
Whilst you tried very hard (appreciated) to be more than gracious with your beaming purple heart, I do wish you had handled the grievance-oriented, vindicating portions of your post with a simple "Take that MFers!"
The underdog, we came out of nowhere, and no one ever guessed Amherst might be a F4 and national title threat rant is just a little bit much. NO TEAM, and I mean not a single one, has been featured, extolled, criticized, and dominated the headlines of D3 men's soccer (including on this board) more than Amherst over a minimum of every year for the past 12-14 years. This year was no different. You'd be better off arguing that Amherst is treated unfairly because they get too much respect (even if much is of the so-called begrudging kind). Call us lazy, call us cynical, call us haters...but my gosh, you certainly have not been ignored. Like the argument about program with best decade, if anything, Amherst suffers from the disease of inevitability....so good for so long, and an automatic favorite pick to make the F4 every single year, that we often do commit the sin of taking the Amherst program for granted.
Put aside the perseveratively referenced style of play. Has Amherst fairly or even marginally unfairly ever contributed to earning a reputation? The history of arrogant, obnoxious, and even ugly behavior has been well-documented probably well before you ever heard the word 'Amherst.' Surely you saw a couple or more examples during your three-year tenure. It's the unapologetic arrogance. We're the best...
regarding everything...and indeed we're so much better and so superior we shouldn't even be playing and fraternizing with you. Amherst (and NESCAC more broadly) have (rightly) dominated the narratives on this board and beyond. But it's never enough. The Amherst appetite is insatiable. Like, you are too good to even be talking about or to us, and yet we should be constantly talking about and showing our respects for you. (And by you, I obviously do not mean you personally.) Dear Lord if some backwater, public outfit like Mary Washington enjoys a portion of sunlight for a few weeks.
I wish you all had scored a couple and won 2-1 or 3-0 (and I'm also thinking about your lament during the season about sparse scoring). But as I think I suggested in my first post post-match, the victory was still well deserved, and while I'll admit I would not have been bawling in my living room if Conn had edged the penalties, Amherst absolutely is the deserving champion based on a dominant performance on the field.
Be honest, though...if I told you Silvester would have three saves in PKs, would you think Amherst prevailed?
Two random player thoughts...
Jonny Novak must be one of the best barely talked about right backs in the country...and I mean over the past handful of years.
Who won the F4 MVP? Even though tradition might argue otherwise, I think I honestly would have voted for Silvester, especially when considering his performance over two games. W&L and Amherst both had Conn under heavy pressure for large portions of the matches, and Silvester's performance imo was nearly heroic. I think that's my only regret about Conn not prevailing...the Silvester performance would have gone down in the annals as one of the great F4 performances.
Now back to the bonfire!
I think Silvester was named best defensive player of the Tournament (Max Landa was named best gk).
Yes, if it weren't for Silvester, W&L would have probably scored a goal or two.
Quote from: Another Mom on December 08, 2024, 12:40:26 PMI think Silvester was named best defensive player of the Tournament (Max Landa was named best gk).
Yes, if it weren't for Silvester, W&L would have probably scored a goal or two.
Or four...
I hate it when our opponents have good goalkeepers!! 😅
Quote from: Another Mom on December 08, 2024, 12:53:35 PMI hate it when our opponents have good goalkeepers!! 😅
Everybody does! Imo D3 has more great GKs than any other position. I might go with CBs next. A lot of very good CBs and CB combos.
As a former player and alum, I was glad that Amherst won, but I still struggle with soccer's insistence on all levels that penalty kicks decide the winner. It's the last game of the year, plenty of subs, why can't they play it out? The international game frequently is spoiled as teams do little in overtime, preferring to risk PKs than exposing themselves to a goal. And the loser counts it as a tie not a loss! Way too many crucial games are decided by penalties. I'd love to just see sudden death on all playoff games, but at least have it for the championship.
I've heard a few ideas that would make for intriguing ways to break a tie. I haven't given much thought to either, but they sure sound interesting.
1. Start removing players (similar to hockey). OT1 is 10v10, OT2 is 9v9...
2. Conduct PKs before the game. The PK loser knows they have to win in OT so they'll be more inclined to attack.
3. Use statistics... Winner is team with fewer fouls and cards; team with more shots; team with most corner kicks, etc.
Paul Newman, your non-begrudging praise is acknowledged and of course, well received. There is an uncensored version of my report where I deal with the MFers issue, but I do know that if I met any in person, that the conversation would most likely be a fun one and whilst that person may not walk away believing Amherst MSOC is actually a force for world good, I at least know it would be a cordial discussion.
I get your point about people not underestimating Amherst more generally and that's fine. Perhaps my purple antennae are particularly sensitive to discussion about the national landscape. To be fair, Tufts and Midd were the standouts in what was a very even NESCAC and deserved more recognition.
I've thought a bit about the Amhating point of view and my conclusion is that if I had never been aware of D3 Boards, I would have been completely oblivious to the grievances expressed. I think it comes up to my Australian upbringing where aggression is a natural part of sport and I haven't seen anything in the last three seasons that I haven't seen in playing/coaching/watching more than 45 years of sport. That's not the same as justifying it, but what I am saying is I don't actually care.
What I do know is that next weekend we will have EnmoreKitten with us in downtown Enmore and are going to go frame by frame through a Director's Cut version of all the Final Four games and I know it's going to be so much fun.
^ Love it friend!
Thanks for the response, Enmorecat.
I get that you don't care (which is exactly how I would be feeling today in your shoes and maybe more broadly), but why exactly do you think Amherst is disliked? Why disliked more than Tufts, Messiah, Midd, W&L, Mary Wash, Hopkins, St Olaf, Denison, Trinity, etc? Is it solely because Amherst is so phenomenal? Complete prejudice based on absolutely nothing?
Also genuinely do not know what you are referring to about attention and the national landscape. Amherst AND NESCAC have dominated the "national" threads as well as the NESCAC thread (and as you may have noticed the NESCAC thread outpaces all others combined by a wide margin). How much time was spent on how many NESCACs were in the top 10 of the NPI, and how many made the Sweet 16, Elite 8, and F4? A complaint about not enough attention, for the Mammoths, or any of the other bigger name NESCACs, just seems odd for someone who has been as committed to and vigilant in monitoring this board. Even your buddy was joining a few others in begging posters to stop focusing on NESCAC. Not easy to navigate when it's too much and when it's too little...but it's always complaints about one or the other.
Quote from: Ejay on December 08, 2024, 02:15:38 PMI've heard a few ideas that would make for intriguing ways to break a tie. I haven't given much thought to either, but they sure sound interesting.
1. Start removing players (similar to hockey). OT1 is 10v10, OT2 is 9v9...
2. Conduct PKs before the game. The PK loser knows they have to win in OT so they'll be more inclined to attack.
3. Use statistics... Winner is team with fewer fouls and cards; team with more shots; team with most corner kicks, etc.
4. Play until there is a winner. No gimmicks needed.
On the other hand, if the World Cup can be decided on penalties, then D3 college soccer can do so.
Fun fantasy exercise.
EJ changing when the PKs happen and how it plays into the game is still Pks.
If you want to go to foul count and cards fine. Most will never agree on stats You value offense and I value defense. Many on this forum has the misconception that stats (almost all offensive) tell the story line of a game and that is a false narrative
Paul Newman, I am agreeing with you on everything. I look forward to one day seeing you in Downtown Enmore.
Quote from: SKUD on December 08, 2024, 03:23:13 PMFun fantasy exercise.
EJ changing when the PKs happen and how it plays into the game is still Pks.
If you want to go to foul count and cards fine. Most will never agree on stats You value offense and I value defense. Many on this forum has the misconception that stats (almost all offensive) tell the story line of a game and that is a false narrative
Responding to me? How do you know what I value? I just nominated Silvester to win MVP and highlighted GKs and CBs in D3. And I have no interest in going to foul counts and cards. None. But, hey, maybe the rules cmte will welcome ideas from the board or at least find them entertaining.
Quote from: EnmoreCat on December 08, 2024, 03:34:44 PMPaul Newman, I am agreeing with you on everything. I look forward to one day seeing you in Downtown Enmore.
Lol, so in other words, you do not care....even though you talk about these themes perseveratively. Iirc you once complained during a late Spring or Summer that the Liberty League thread was too active.
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 07, 2024, 04:08:07 PMThat Novak from England is a heckuva of a player. Never loses a ball or a challenge and almost always does something positive with the ball too. Same with Murphy. The Haberman kid for Conn is gonna be one of the best players in the country the next couple of years.
Reminiscent of the W&L game. Strong 10-12 minutes for Conn to start, and then pretty much all Amherst after that with Conn getting just enough occasional chances to think they will get one.
Despite the losses, Conn's young core will get them back. No doubt.
Responding to me? How do you know what I value? I just nominated Silvester to win MVP and highlighted GKs and CBs in D3. And I have no interest in going to foul counts and cards. None. But, hey, maybe the rules cmte will welcome ideas from the board or at least find them entertaining.
[/quote]
I was responding to EJ not you PN. I favor the play till they drop option and really don't like any other option.
Cross-posted from the Women's Soccer thread (which doesn't get many views)
NCAA Women's Championship game 2024
Wash U 3 - William Smith 0
William Smith did an admirable job holding Wash U off the scoreboard, but it always seemed a matter of time. Wash U was just too strong, too technical, and too athletic for William Smith. Once the dam broke, Wash U piled it on for a scoreline that makes it seem like total domination, even though really the 2nd and 3rd goals were scored a little over a minute apart with about 15 minutes to go. Still, Wash U. could have done even more damage with a few crossbars and posts (and non-calls on a trip in the box) helping out William Smith. William Smith almost got one back with a free kick that snuck past the wall and was kept out by a full stretch dive from the Wash U GK, but by that point it would have only been a consolation goal. A VAR check in the 89th minute changed a yellow to a straight red and gave William Smith an advantage for the last 90 seconds, but they weren't able to capitalize.
D1 football also feeling the growing pains of a new post season playoff.
Of 12 spots
the big bad SEC 2 teams
ACC 2 teams
Big 10 4 teams
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 08, 2024, 03:08:10 PMQuote from: Ejay on December 08, 2024, 02:15:38 PMI've heard a few ideas that would make for intriguing ways to break a tie. I haven't given much thought to either, but they sure sound interesting.
1. Start removing players (similar to hockey). OT1 is 10v10, OT2 is 9v9...
2. Conduct PKs before the game. The PK loser knows they have to win in OT so they'll be more inclined to attack.
3. Use statistics... Winner is team with fewer fouls and cards; team with more shots; team with most corner kicks, etc.
4. Play until there is a winner. No gimmicks needed.
On the other hand, if the World Cup can be decided on penalties, then D3 college soccer can do so.
Ties and PK shootout are a brutal way to end and in a game like this it is a shame. However, if the coaches wanted to win they can change their conservative tactics (and they did not). It seems that NESCAC teams and their coaches are happy to go to PK as they have confidence in their keepers.
Quote from: SKUD on December 08, 2024, 03:23:13 PMMost will never agree on stats You value offense and I value defense. Many on this forum has the misconception that stats (almost all offensive) tell the story line of a game and that is a false narrative
Recognize that "offensive" stats are in fact defensive stats. You can "win" the stat matchup by only having 1 shot on goal if you concede 0 shots.
I may be very naive and I understand if this take above has some traction, but I don't think going for PKs in part because of being so confident about your chances follows logically, and so I don't think this is it.
I understand that teams don't want to lose on a mistake, especially as the game gets late, but Amherst surely didn't want to risk losing on PKs to the very same team that cost them a national title 3 years ago. Serpone himself has suffered enough heartbreak to want that. Superficially I can see a bit stronger argument for Conn, but even with Conn, the statistics are against you when you've won so many straight, and just in this very tournament we've seen teams win easily in PKs only to lose easily in PKs the next week. Plus, the chances of Conn besting Amherst via PKs in two national title games, even with Silvester? I suspect Burk also has been around long enough to realize there is no reason to have high confidence about PKs. Not high enough to roll the dice like that. Does anybody think Conn played for PKs in the 1st round of their title run against Salem State? After years of heartbreak in the Elite 8, do you think Midd was satisfied going to PKs with Babson? Imho the only teams that play for PKs are the ones who are 35 to 1 odds or far worse.
Quote from: Kuiper on December 08, 2024, 05:07:20 PMCross-posted from the Women's Soccer thread (which doesn't get many views)
NCAA Women's Championship game 2024
Wash U 3 - William Smith 0
William Smith did an admirable job holding Wash U off the scoreboard, but it always seemed a matter of time. Wash U was just too strong, too technical, and too athletic for William Smith. Once the dam broke, Wash U piled it on for a scoreline that makes it seem like total domination, even though really the 2nd and 3rd goals were scored a little over a minute apart with about 15 minutes to go. Still, Wash U. could have done even more damage with a few crossbars and posts (and non-calls on a trip in the box) helping out William Smith. William Smith almost got one back with a free kick that snuck past the wall and was kept out by a full stretch dive from the Wash U GK, but by that point it would have only been a consolation goal. A VAR check in the 89th minute changed a yellow to a straight red and gave William Smith an advantage for the last 90 seconds, but they weren't able to capitalize.
I'm curious to hear from you all if there's a like-for-like comparison on the men's side for this, but WashU's leading goal-scorer and point-getter is Freshman Olivia Clemons (21G, 6A, 48P). She did not start a single game all year, was 11th on the team in minutes played (972 compared to nearly 2X the number of other starters), and did not make it to any of the AA teams.
Keagan Harder for Midd?
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on December 08, 2024, 09:03:19 PMQuote from: Kuiper on December 08, 2024, 05:07:20 PMCross-posted from the Women's Soccer thread (which doesn't get many views)
NCAA Women's Championship game 2024
Wash U 3 - William Smith 0
William Smith did an admirable job holding Wash U off the scoreboard, but it always seemed a matter of time. Wash U was just too strong, too technical, and too athletic for William Smith. Once the dam broke, Wash U piled it on for a scoreline that makes it seem like total domination, even though really the 2nd and 3rd goals were scored a little over a minute apart with about 15 minutes to go. Still, Wash U. could have done even more damage with a few crossbars and posts (and non-calls on a trip in the box) helping out William Smith. William Smith almost got one back with a free kick that snuck past the wall and was kept out by a full stretch dive from the Wash U GK, but by that point it would have only been a consolation goal. A VAR check in the 89th minute changed a yellow to a straight red and gave William Smith an advantage for the last 90 seconds, but they weren't able to capitalize.
I'm curious to hear from you all if there's a like-for-like comparison on the men's side for this, but WashU's leading goal-scorer and point-getter is Freshman Olivia Clemons (21G, 6A, 48P). She did not start a single game all year, was 11th on the team in minutes played (972 compared to nearly 2X the number of other starters), and did not make it to any of the AA teams.
Alem Duratovic as a sophomore with Kenyon scored 18 goals, 2 assists as a bench player; 0 starts. Not even conference recognition that year (2022), let alone all-region or AA. Assume there's countless similar stories. What a great season for her though as a freshman. Amazing.
Freddy, I'm hoping this will cap off my 2024 campaign...
As I see the only other Kenyon supporter on the board referencing Duratovic it occurs to me that I'm pretty sure his name has not been mentioned once all season by anyone other than the "Another Mom of Gambier" and yours truly. Duratovic began the season as a strong candidate for AA honors as one of the top strikers in D3. His season, and to some extent, Kenyon's season, were derailed by a nasty hamstring injury, decreasing the Owls' chances and preventing Alem from reaching the tippy top of all time Kenyon scorers which he was well on pace to achieve. No mentions. Then he wasn't supposed to play against Hamilton but with his team down 2-1 he goes in with about 15-20 minutes left, scores a dramatic goal, and then bangs in a PK in PK shootout. No mention. The next week against Conn he sits until deep into the 2nd half and with the taut affair tied at 1-1 he trots on and proceeds to score another goal on the impenetrable Silvester, putting the Owls up 2-1 with about 12-13 min to go. Unfortunately he suffers a re-injury on the goal and never returns for the balance of regular time and the OTs. A couple of minutes after Duratovic put Kenyon back in front, a free kick intended for an assist from 45 yards out by Jaran drops into the right corner of the goal untouched. 2-2, PKs, and an abrupt exit instead of an advance. Again, no mention of Duratovic, and no mentions of Kenyon's misfortune with not having a healthy Duratovic. And yes, I know other major contenders also had to cope with major personnel losses, but we're talking about one of the lethal weapons in D3, who in two stints of very limited minutes with everyone knowing who he was when he came on scored two critical goals after not playing a minute for five weeks and barely playing before that.
At any rate, and in the context of ongoing discussion and complaints about who gets enough attention and who doesn't, and from whom, it occurs to me that the vast majority of posters, including the ones who wonder out loud about why other posters aren't talking about their beloved teams, have virtually no interest in other programs. And I don't mean perfunctory nods of respect for your most recent opponent. It's... interesting...and I suppose understandably telling. Turns out most of us care only about our own backyards, and mentions of competitors usually are merely appendages of narratives to reflect attention back on "the home team."
There are notably a few exceptions, like the two primary Hopkins posters, Sierra, a few of the LL folks, a couple of the Texas crew etc and then there are the few commentators who either have no obvious favorite teams or if they do are more successful at keeping that info under wraps...like Kuiper, Ejay, etc...and of course the great, indefatigable SC.
Oddly enough, we'd be better off if every major program (let's say top 50-75) each had a minimum of 5 steady posters with of course NESCAC schools getting a minimum of 15 (success algorithm). More overall content and passionate engagement but with less of an overly personalized slant. Folks usually object when I make these points, and imo oddly defend the board writ large almost like one would defend a family member or your favorite player.
PN disagree with your take. The great value of this forum is to learn about other leagues and teams.
Quote from: SKUD on December 09, 2024, 11:52:53 AMPN disagree with your take. The great value of this forum is to learn about other leagues and teams.
Which teams did you enjoy talking about this year?
And if you find the board valuable in the way you say, wouldn't you like even more and from a larger pool of interested and diverse posters?
By the way, what take? Or what part of my take did you disagree with specifically? I didn't say the board had no value or that you can't learn anything. Just saying could be more and better.
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 09, 2024, 11:28:22 AMFreddy, I'm hoping this will cap off my 2024 campaign...
Aaannnnnnd you jinxed yourself. ;D
D3 is 415 or so soccer teams. When I was running the fan poll and helping with the d3soccer.com poll I kept track of about 100 teams or so. It wasn't that much fun. Felt more like a job.
Honestly, I've tried to get more W&L posters over the years in almost all the boards. It never seems to happen. So happy to have had Another Mom for the last few years. Wish we had football posters. It's better to discuss the teams with others of shared interest, even when that interest is limited.
But bulletin boards are a dying medium. I think if we were to ask Pat Coleman, the owner of this little corner of the internet, he'd tell you the glory days are 10-15 years in the past. Maybe more.
And I really don't expect that trajectory to change, sadly. I'm happy there is a place I can go to discuss this niche little obsession and thankful for the posters we have, but I expect at some point this little spot will become uneconomical and go the way of d3soccer.com. Until then, thanks to all of the posters who keep it active.
Even the occasional trolls. Eyeballs are eyeballs, and this place needs every one it can get.
Quote from: Freddyfud on December 09, 2024, 12:04:26 PMQuote from: PaulNewman on December 09, 2024, 11:28:22 AMFreddy, I'm hoping this will cap off my 2024 campaign...
Aaannnnnnd you jinxed yourself. ;D
Lol...true confessions..I'm probably not gonna stop posting, much to everyone's delight...at least until I get fully hooked on another oddball obsession.
Quote from: jknezek on December 09, 2024, 12:07:15 PMD3 is 415 or so soccer teams. When I was running the fan poll and helping with the d3soccer.com poll I kept track of about 100 teams or so. It wasn't that much fun. Felt more like a job.
Honestly, I've tried to get more W&L posters over the years in almost all the boards. It never seems to happen. So happy to have had Another Mom for the last few years. Wish we had football posters. It's better to discuss the teams with others of shared interest, even when that interest is limited.
But bulletin boards are a dying medium. I think if we were to ask Pat Coleman, the owner of this little corner of the internet, he'd tell you the glory days are 10-15 years in the past. Maybe more.
And I really don't expect that trajectory to change, sadly. I'm happy there is a place I can go to discuss this niche little obsession and thankful for the posters we have, but I expect at some point this little spot will become uneconomical and go the way of d3soccer.com. Until then, thanks to all of the posters who keep it active.
Even the occasional trolls. Eyeballs are eyeballs, and this place needs every one it can get.
Maybe we just start posting Tik-Tok videos (all the cool kids are doing it) of our takes on D-3 Teams.
Justifying my participation to PN wow what is wrong with me.
1. reading about anything Kuiper discussed as I knew nothing about the western teams. Reading about teams like JHU, W&L, Mid, Conn, Amherst from sources much closer to those programs. I am sure I am missing others.
2. love SCs interviews to learn more about other team's coaches and their programs
PN Have a great off season, don't let all the sociopaths that you work with daily change you. Oops too late ;).
Skud, let's be honest. You really didn't understand my post.
Nothing you wrote is in conflict with what I wrote. I actually individually referenced Kuiper, SC, and some others.
You've been a great addition. Seriously...despite or maybe because of you impressing as such a live wire ready to pounce. Clearly interested, willing to rattle some cages with responses that are sometimes abrupt, impulsive, and not well thought out.. with a touch of bullying. But you hang in there and ultimately (usually) end up being quite fair and giving folks like me who you may disagree with more chances for redemption. Still struggling with my envy towards your bromance with the 'Cat so please read my comments in that context.
I think the problem is, we all only have so much bandwidth. While I enjoy reading about other teams and conferences, I don't have the time or enough interest to watch teams other than W&L. And if I haven't watched them, I don't feel like I can comment knowledgeably.
I expect you'll still have me around next season, as I plan to keep watching W&L games.
Quote from: Rcjh2245 on December 08, 2024, 09:27:36 PMQuote from: NEsoccerfan on December 08, 2024, 09:03:19 PMQuote from: Kuiper on December 08, 2024, 05:07:20 PMCross-posted from the Women's Soccer thread (which doesn't get many views)
NCAA Women's Championship game 2024
Wash U 3 - William Smith 0
William Smith did an admirable job holding Wash U off the scoreboard, but it always seemed a matter of time. Wash U was just too strong, too technical, and too athletic for William Smith. Once the dam broke, Wash U piled it on for a scoreline that makes it seem like total domination, even though really the 2nd and 3rd goals were scored a little over a minute apart with about 15 minutes to go. Still, Wash U. could have done even more damage with a few crossbars and posts (and non-calls on a trip in the box) helping out William Smith. William Smith almost got one back with a free kick that snuck past the wall and was kept out by a full stretch dive from the Wash U GK, but by that point it would have only been a consolation goal. A VAR check in the 89th minute changed a yellow to a straight red and gave William Smith an advantage for the last 90 seconds, but they weren't able to capitalize.
I'm curious to hear from you all if there's a like-for-like comparison on the men's side for this, but WashU's leading goal-scorer and point-getter is Freshman Olivia Clemons (21G, 6A, 48P). She did not start a single game all year, was 11th on the team in minutes played (972 compared to nearly 2X the number of other starters), and did not make it to any of the AA teams.
Alem Duratovic as a sophomore with Kenyon scored 18 goals, 2 assists as a bench player; 0 starts. Not even conference recognition, let alone all-region or AA. Assume there's countless similar stories. What a great season for her though as a freshman. Amazing.
Great example. To give her and her team even more credit: she drew the penalty for the first goal in the final and scored the second goal. After losing in the championship last year. Wash-U completes an undefeated season, letting in only 7 goals all year. They were particularly dominant in the tournament, outscoring their opponents 15-1 and winning the semi and final each by a score line of 3-0. An incredible season for those women.
PN, appreciate you somewhat understanding me, maybe my humor is missed or just not funny.
I don't think I misunderstood you & I was not referenced in your exceptions. This is what I read and responded to;
"it occurs to me that the vast majority of posters, including the ones who wonder out loud about why other posters aren't talking about their beloved teams, have virtually no interest in other programs."
"Turns out most of us care only about our own backyards, and mentions of competitors usually are merely appendages of narratives to reflect attention back on "the home team."
Maybe this was you projecting.
As far as my friendship with BigCat, he humanized the hated enemy and we enjoyed a beverage and a common appreciation for our sons and a great game. The fact I was able to be happy for he and his son is something I could not have done before meeting him and gave me a better appreciation for all opponents, (except Tufts.;) )
Although I am not sure Enmore enjoyed the coffee stout as much as I did.
Quote from: jknezek on December 09, 2024, 12:07:15 PMD3 is 415 or so soccer teams. When I was running the fan poll and helping with the d3soccer.com poll I kept track of about 100 teams or so. It wasn't that much fun. Felt more like a job.
Honestly, I've tried to get more W&L posters over the years in almost all the boards. It never seems to happen. So happy to have had Another Mom for the last few years. Wish we had football posters. It's better to discuss the teams with others of shared interest, even when that interest is limited.
But bulletin boards are a dying medium. I think if we were to ask Pat Coleman, the owner of this little corner of the internet, he'd tell you the glory days are 10-15 years in the past. Maybe more.
And I really don't expect that trajectory to change, sadly. I'm happy there is a place I can go to discuss this niche little obsession and thankful for the posters we have, but I expect at some point this little spot will become uneconomical and go the way of d3soccer.com. Until then, thanks to all of the posters who keep it active.
Even the occasional trolls. Eyeballs are eyeballs, and this place needs every one it can get.
I totally agree that discussion boards are probably dying as a social network medium, but I've found that the one area where it remains (even if not at its heights) is anything associated with colleges. Boosters still use them to discuss their favorite teams. There are big time football program sites, such as the Alabama page of the SEC football board (https://www.secrant.com/rant/alabama-sports/) or this Duke basketball discussion board (https://247sports.com/college/duke/board/duke-blue-devils-message-board-forum-59461/)), but some of the niche sports have even more posts, such as this DI men's lacrosse board (https://fanlax.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=290). Discussion boards for parents of college applicants are also still very active. For example, the College Confidential board (https://talk.collegeconfidential.com/), which includes a NESCAC recruiting discussion thread (https://talk.collegeconfidential.com/t/nescac-athletic-recruiting/3513145) and a thread devoted entirely to fencing recruiting (https://talk.collegeconfidential.com/t/the-only-college-fencing-recruiting-thread-you-need-to-read/1827194) that is second in number of posts to a swimming thread (https://talk.collegeconfidential.com/t/swimming-recruiting-for-int-l-jr-targeting-highly-selective-colleges/3623592/2478)that got so hot they had to shut it down (I'm assuming the Kenyon boosters got out of hand, but I never tried to dive into it to find out what happened). It's not just athletics either. The Musical Theater college discussion section (https://talk.collegeconfidential.com/c/college-majors/musical-theater-major/656) is pretty active too, with 1000+ posts last year alone about pre-screen results. There is also a very active board for soccer in the DC Urban Moms (and Dads) Forum (https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/forums/show/76.page), which is kind of college adjacent in a sense since that is many parents' ultimate goal in the DC area with all activities. The thread on ECNL back to school year from calendar year (https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/1207623.page;jsessionid=E1E55561FD3E18768DE18C553083F988) (which was going to happen, but now is not, at least not until 2026), is up to 446 pages and almost 7000 posts since it was started on May 28, 2024.
Why are discussion boards still active in these areas? Partly because the target group of participants are parents and alums - a more Gen X aged group - and they are more comfortable with discussion boards and aren't as active on sites like Reddit. They also are educated people that are intensely interested in a niche topic and often in search of information or a place to complain about something with people who know what they are talking about. Partly it's because college is considered such a massive decision, both in terms of cost and in terms of your child's career path, that people get really invested in it. And then after people graduate, they have such a life-long devotion to it that they devour any information they can find.
One project I'm contemplating this off-season is to start a thread on Recruiting that includes both general information and a lot of sub-threads where parents can discuss specific issues. Those parents are really operating in the dark and they hear from club coaches and recruiting services who offer advice that is not completely disinterested. They could use some information from people who have been there. If successfully plugged by people outside of this form, it might attract parents to this site who will stay because there is nowhere else where they might see discussion of their kid's team and it might attract alums and fans who could put in a good word for their teams to prospective recruits or at least dispel some myths. It's also a nice place to cross-post SimpleCoach's coach-to-coach interviews, which are a great way to hear how a school sells itself and fields of dreams videos, which is the next best thing to going to see a school in person if you're just starting your search. If I do get that going, hope people will chime in. It's an excuse to check in during the offseason!
Skud, I hereby add you to my exceptions list...as I don't believe you have disclosed any particular affiliation.
Sociopath and now projection. Impressive.
Do YOU think I only talk about Kenyon and demand that others talk about Kenyon? Pretty sure I make that exceptions list as well, but maybe you've haven't been around long enough to see my featured presentations on schools like Wisconsin Lutheran, Keuka, Loras and Luther, NC Wesleyan, Calvin, OWU, Denison, NESCACs, TX schools, JCU and ONU, Hopkins, F&M, Johnson & Wales, etc, etc...
Apropos of nothing....I've got 6, maybe 7 Amherst College t-shirts.
If anyone wants any or all, they're free...and I'll cover the postage and handling.
A few are L and a few are XL.
Been a poster, defender (F&M, Centennial Conf), discusser (W&L, ODAC) for several years. Will probably continue, but maybe less as most of the kids who played with my son will graduate shortly. It is what it is. It has been great learning about other conferences and teams around the US. As will there be more or less, maybe, maybe not.
What may prevent some is the possibility of ridicule or maybe a dying medium. As to ridicule, I have pretty thick skin. If I put something out there, I generally try to not be emotional. Instead, I try base my opinion on facts which makes it very easy to swat away ridicule. I will also try to see where a person is coming from. They may have a point.
Ex. would be F&M's bench antics that tees people off to the point they chose to write F&M off. I understand why, but also know a lot about the team and why they do that. One thing you can't say is that F&M is not having a good time and the whole team being involved. Take it personally or not, it really isn't about the opposing team.
Also, they build some incredible bonds within the team. Son now has many very close friends that will last a lifetime. He got a lot of great life advice from older/alumni players and also has mentored younger guys. May the same at other programs, but did not see any of this when he played at the D1 level. I think that is amazing selling point for many D3 teams over going D1. From what I see, this is not common for many kids going to college.
As to W&L, I have some interest because I went there and played very, very little. Also, as to the Baltimore area, I know some of the coaches and colleges.
However, beyond that, I know very little and will know even less very soon. I think the board will make me want to watch games next year. Also, I get to share with my son who is also watching.
Best of luck everyone. Great news to see that Koa Kaliebe, one of the best players I've seen at the D3 level, make the All American team!
Quote from: Kuiper on December 09, 2024, 01:04:07 PMWhy are discussion boards still active in these areas? Partly because the target group of participants are parents and alums - a more Gen X aged group - and they are more comfortable with discussion boards and aren't as active on sites like Reddit. They also are educated people that are intensely interested in a niche topic and often in search of information or a place to complain about something with people who know what they are talking about. Partly it's because college is considered such a massive decision, both in terms of cost and in terms of your child's career path, that people get really invested in it. And then after people graduate, they have such a life-long devotion to it that they devour any information they can find.
GET OFF MY LAWN!!
https://media1.tenor.com/m/fUr6-sYkHIEAAAAC/clint-eastwood-cry.gif
PN glad you can decipher my humor as I am trying to relate to an expert! Thank you for including
me on the list!
I try to keep up with all the different threads on the forum but will never use a computer to do so. Therefore I miss quite a few conversations that go pages long with quotes and replies that are easy to miss when using a phone.
My forensic analysis of PN; no you focus on much more than Kenyon....
You are the voice of Oz.... All knowing, sometimes welcoming and sometimes very scary and judgmental (as am I), and I believe you enjoy being the arbiter of what's good and what is evil on this forum.
Do you think that's accurate?
Skud, guilty as charged.
Some of that is just years of being here. Most of the old-timers who still post with some frequency probably carry more weight than we should, and I know I am guilty of minimizing how someone could be scared off. I do not feel good about that.
Arbiter of good and evil? Yes...I like that lol.
Another interesting question...
Some of us are here day and night every day or almost every day. I'm sure some of us would deny that on the stand, but there are data so just embrace it.
But wtf are we doing? Especially when no one is posting and during stretches where there are no posts for days? Just staring at the threads unchanged and hitting refresh over and over and over? Like what are we looking at? How will I explain my behavior to future generations?
Another Vermont team makes a Final 4.
UVM headed to College Cup after dispatching Pittsburgh 2-0.
UMass departs in the Elite 8 as Denver romped 3-0.
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 09, 2024, 02:35:35 PMAnother interesting question...
Some of us are here day and night every day or almost every day. I'm sure some of us would deny that on the stand, but there are data so just embrace it.
But wtf are we doing? Especially when no one is posting and during stretches where there are no posts for days? Just staring at the threads unchanged and hitting refresh over and over and over? Like what are we looking at? How will I explain my behavior to future generations?
Personally, being a caveman at my core I check in every day to see if there's any drama. We're all competitors in the end, right? In all seriousness, there's just something special about the nicheness of it all. All the schools represented on here have large alumni pools but it's still cool to see someone from your own institution pop up in the wild. I sometimes feel I annoy people with my SLU/LL centric posting but I mainly try to keep that contained in the LL thread. I've stirred things up plenty myself, I have no issue admitting it (though I am always right about Rochester's pool C shenanigans). But do I actually care if SLU or the LL isn't getting the attention I think it should? Truthfully I don't. It's nice when it happens but that's one of the better things about d3, an array of schools and teams all getting their due from an eclectic pool of posters.
I really don't know where I'm going with all this so I'll shut my trap for the time being.
I'm here regularly, but I'm also on the football and basketball boards and the future of D3 boards. I used to be more involved than I am now, so in some ways I've cut back. But also, the boards have cut back as well. Used to be the ODAC football boards would hardly go a day without a post of some kind in season. Now it can be almost a week with little or nothing. When LaxPower had boards I spent time there as well in the spring, so I'm just a W&L/ODAC athletics follower. Whether I have people to talk to about it or not.
Stlawus, I am deeply offended by your non-stop assaults on Rochester.
Rochester is your Amherst....except for when Amherst is your Amherst.
]
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 09, 2024, 02:35:35 PMAnother interesting question...
Some of us are here day and night every day or almost every day. I'm sure some of us would deny that on the stand, but there are data so just embrace it.
But wtf are we doing? Especially when no one is posting and during stretches where there are no posts for days? Just staring at the threads unchanged and hitting refresh over and over and over? Like what are we looking at? How will I explain my behavior to future generations?
To answer your question ....
refresh....refresh...refresh.... refresh... refresh....
SC.
Back when the board seemed like it was affiliated with D3soccer.com, and before I learned otherwise but never accepted, I relied on (in my own mind) "oh, I'm buried deep in the archives figuring out who Brandeis beat in the 2nd round in 1983" or memorizing the list of national champs and finalists or checking out the scoreboard.
To hear it's dying -- and I agree -- makes me feel like we are most nobly specialists in palliative care...at the bedside...and waiting.
Quote from: jknezek on December 09, 2024, 03:31:31 PMI'm here regularly, but I'm also on the football and basketball boards and the future of D3 boards. I used to be more involved than I am now, so in some ways I've cut back. But also, the boards have cut back as well. Used to be the ODAC football boards would hardly go a day without a post of some kind in season. Now it can be almost a week with little or nothing. When LaxPower had boards I spent time there as well in the spring, so I'm just a W&L/ODAC athletics follower. Whether I have people to talk to about it or not.
SLU is playing W&L in lax this upcoming season, so you'd have one person to talk about it with!
I also feel like covid/the great d3board outage had an effect on this. I think some folks just didn't think it was worth the hassle tracking down usernames/passwords again in combination with the weird vibes of d3 athletics that occurred in the season post covid. Reading old threads from ~15 years ago can be a fun time killer. It's like stepping into a time machine. Just read the LL basketball board circa the 06/07 season and you'll see a ton of Hamilton posters complaining about Tobin Anderson. Little did they know...
Quote from: stlawus on December 09, 2024, 03:53:20 PMQuote from: jknezek on December 09, 2024, 03:31:31 PMI'm here regularly, but I'm also on the football and basketball boards and the future of D3 boards. I used to be more involved than I am now, so in some ways I've cut back. But also, the boards have cut back as well. Used to be the ODAC football boards would hardly go a day without a post of some kind in season. Now it can be almost a week with little or nothing. When LaxPower had boards I spent time there as well in the spring, so I'm just a W&L/ODAC athletics follower. Whether I have people to talk to about it or not.
SLU is playing W&L in lax this upcoming season, so you'd have one person to talk about it with!
I also feel like covid/the great d3board outage had an effect on this. I think some folks just didn't think it was worth the hassle tracking down usernames/passwords again in combination with the weird vibes of d3 athletics that occurred in the season post covid. Reading old threads from ~15 years ago can be a fun time killer. It's like stepping into a time machine. Just read the LL basketball board in the 06/07 season and you'll see a ton of Hamilton posters complaining about Tobin Anderson. Little did they know...
I hadn't checked the schedule. I keep hoping they will make a southern swing to Sewanee like they did maybe a decade ago, but no such luck. I haven't even thought about the lax season yet. Was just looking at basketball and realizing the men's team is in a rebuilding year but the women should be in good shape if they can adapt to the new coach. It was tough last year when our final four men's soccer coach and elite eight women's basketball coaches both left!
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 09, 2024, 02:35:35 PMAnother interesting question...
Some of us are here day and night every day or almost every day. I'm sure some of us would deny that on the stand, but there are data so just embrace it.
But wtf are we doing? Especially when no one is posting and during stretches where there are no posts for days? Just staring at the threads unchanged and hitting refresh over and over and over? Like what are we looking at? How will I explain my behavior to future generations?
1) I began posting regularly on BigSoccer in the late 90s. (I know I've written this here before, but just a refresher.) I was actually a moderator on the Yanks Abroad thread (this was back before that was even a common thing. We were following dudes in the third division of Swedish soccer ffs.) I made actual real, long-term friends over there and attended 2 weddings from folks I met at that forum. The point here is that posting and interacting on message boards became a part of my daily routine.
2) I now have another place that I've been posting on regularly for the last 15 years. Met some of those guys, too, especially during the pandemic when we'd do Zoom meetups. We still get online together for trivia matches and the like.
3) I stop by here at least once a day, many more times than that during the heart of the season. It gets pretty quiet in here during the off-season, so it's a pretty easy thing to just check of there's anything new and then pop back out.
4) One thing this particular board might do to create more of a community is to post more OT threads. That gets tricky, because things get dicey when politics or other social stuff comes up. But that keeps folks coming back during the quiet months, for sure.
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 09, 2024, 03:42:45 PMBack when the board seemed like it was affiliated with D3soccer.com, and before I learned otherwise but never accepted, I relied on (in my own mind) "oh, I'm buried deep in the archives figuring out who Brandeis beat in the 2nd round in 1983" or memorizing the list of national champs and finalists or checking out the scoreboard.
To hear it's dying -- and I agree -- makes me feel like we are most nobly specialists in palliative care...at the bedside...and waiting.
Here's the thing, though... There've been discussions about this place "dying" since before COVID.
I (obviously) don't have the analytics, but... is it, really?
When I checked on this board during one of the F4 matches the active users list was dozens of folks. I didn't think to screen cap it or even to count it up, but I was pleasantly surprised to see that.
I mean, it's not like those numbers have anything to do with actually watching the matches, as that is obviously happening on another site.
We are sitting in a thread that was started a few weeks ago and is now almost 80 pages long.
(SMy MIL has been warning that my FIL was going to pass over some ailment or another for close to 20 years. He's still kicking, and so is this board!)
Hop92, if I could have your optimism and your intelligence I could accomplish some things.
Two discrete issues....alleged death of the site...and what folks are looking at when they are here all day and nothing is happening.
Taking those in reverse, I'm not so much referring to "healthy" posters like yourself who routinely check in once or twice a day and then are more active, but judiciously so, during high activity periods. I'm literally asking what folks like myself and others are doing spending literally hours day and night when absolutely nothing is being posted. Studying trends from old threads could work, as stlawus suggested.
Regarding death, there is no question in my mind that participation is way down, and probably for all the reasons people have noted (COVID, lost season, lost site before re-emerging, older crowd using old platforms, anxiety about jumping in, etc). There were times when literally hundreds were online at the same time....both registrants and guests. Even in the middle of this season, there would be days with almost nothing. Some of the more active folks have exited or have severely curtailed their participation (Sager, Flying Weasel, Mr.Right, Flounder, blooter, D4pace, Harmanis, Falconer, the Loras crew, a few Calvin posters, couple of Chicago supporters, etc, etc).
Anyway, I managed when there was no board, as did everyone else, and I'm not complaining in the sense of really caring what happens but I really don't. Now I turn to Celtics and UK bball (just got huge win on road at Gonzaga and have an inspirational and exciting new coach), and my emerging competitive pickleball game with a goal of making at least the Elite 8 of the 65+ Pickleball National Championship.
At any rate, this theme was really a side note on folks complaining about their already media-heavy teams not commanding even more attention...and I wanted them to acknowledge that they themselves have little interest beyond their own programs....so why should I give them attention even though I do? Bandwidth aside, there are folks who are here all day and night even though often not posting much themselves and I suppose waiting to see if anyone posts anything positive or negative about their squad.
As for beating the odds, my mother was diagnosed with leukemia 30+ years ago around age 55. I'm headed to Greensboro Wednesday to celebrate her 89th birthday. Walks 3 miles a day, has all of her faculties, and could be working full-time. She engages in what I term 'competitive living.'
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 09, 2024, 01:21:14 PMApropos of nothing....I've got 6, maybe 7 Amherst College t-shirts.
If anyone wants any or all, they're free...and I'll cover the postage and handling.
A few are L and a few are XL.
That does make me feel a little uncomfortable, perhaps it's the shade of purple...😀
Quote from: EnmoreCat on December 09, 2024, 05:25:22 PMQuote from: PaulNewman on December 09, 2024, 01:21:14 PMApropos of nothing....I've got 6, maybe 7 Amherst College t-shirts.
If anyone wants any or all, they're free...and I'll cover the postage and handling.
A few are L and a few are XL.
That does make me feel a little uncomfortable, perhaps it's the shade of purple...😀
I'm guessing you are an extremely fit XXL...but four of them have never been touched and came directly from the Amherst College Bookstore and a little emerging company called Amazon.
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 09, 2024, 05:49:49 PMQuote from: EnmoreCat on December 09, 2024, 05:25:22 PMQuote from: PaulNewman on December 09, 2024, 01:21:14 PMApropos of nothing....I've got 6, maybe 7 Amherst College t-shirts.
If anyone wants any or all, they're free...and I'll cover the postage and handling.
A few are L and a few are XL.
That does make me feel a little uncomfortable, perhaps it's the shade of purple...😀
I'm guessing you are an extremely fit XXL...but four of them have never been touched and came directly from the Amherst College Bookstore and a little emerging company called Amazon.
Bang on the money, Paul Newman, technically I may be better described as Enmore BigCat, especially if I started regularly imbibing coffee stouts.
The exciting news for me at least is that I am not far from Downtown Enmore and will be re-watching the final on a big screen later today. The real treat will be when EnmoreKitten returns at the end of the week and we all get to watch together.
Btw, I've tried to log on as just a guest several times and the site won't seem to let me. But then I see there are frequently "guests viewing" (like 4 at latest checkand often far more). I would prefer to have the guest option available. Any technological insights?
Quote from: EnmoreCat on December 09, 2024, 05:56:43 PMQuote from: PaulNewman on December 09, 2024, 05:49:49 PMQuote from: EnmoreCat on December 09, 2024, 05:25:22 PMQuote from: PaulNewman on December 09, 2024, 01:21:14 PMApropos of nothing....I've got 6, maybe 7 Amherst College t-shirts.
If anyone wants any or all, they're free...and I'll cover the postage and handling.
A few are L and a few are XL.
That does make me feel a little uncomfortable, perhaps it's the shade of purple...😀
I'm guessing you are an extremely fit XXL...but four of them have never been touched and came directly from the Amherst College Bookstore and a little emerging company called Amazon.
Bang on the money, Paul Newman, technically I may be better described as Enmore BigCat, especially if I started regularly imbibing coffee stouts.
The exciting news for me at least is that I am not far from Downtown Enmore and will be re-watching the final on a big screen later today. The real treat will be when EnmoreKitten returns at the end of the week and we all get to watch together.
Lol...how many times do you reckon you and the Kitten will watch his PK?
Wanna see my kid's walk-off GW in OT2 versus Denison in 2014 to keep the then #2 Lords unblemished at 12-0-0?
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 09, 2024, 05:58:35 PMBtw, I've tried to log on as just a guest several times and the site won't seem to let me. But then I see there are frequently "guests viewing" (like 4 at latest checkand often far more). I would prefer to have the guest option available. Any technological insights?
Try using incognito mode on your browser
Quote from: Kuiper on December 09, 2024, 01:04:07 PMOne project I'm contemplating this off-season is to start a thread on Recruiting that includes both general information and a lot of sub-threads where parents can discuss specific issues. Those parents are really operating in the dark and they hear from club coaches and recruiting services who offer advice that is not completely disinterested. They could use some information from people who have been there. If successfully plugged by people outside of this form, it might attract parents to this site who will stay because there is nowhere else where they might see discussion of their kid's team and it might attract alums and fans who could put in a good word for their teams to prospective recruits or at least dispel some myths. It's also a nice place to cross-post SimpleCoach's coach-to-coach interviews, which are a great way to hear how a school sells itself and fields of dreams videos, which is the next best thing to going to see a school in person if you're just starting your search. If I do get that going, hope people will chime in. It's an excuse to check in during the offseason!
As someone who joined a little over a year ago while on the recruiting trail at the time I might applaud this. As someone who has now been here for a little over a year this might scare the sh$t out of me.* Club coaches and recruiting services may be disinterested but are generally not anonymous. You could claim caveat emptor but I would still be afraid of unfavorable impressions, intentional or not.
You could make it simple though. One page with large font entitled "The best way to find a suitable program for your son or daughter is to actually visit and get to know as much as you can about the school and the program
from the people who are actually there."
Then in smaller font below you could put "Or you can try your best with this" and add a link to the NESCAC board.*To be fair several here were generous and offered help. Notably they respected the journey and decisions are personal.
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 09, 2024, 02:35:35 PMAnother interesting question...
Some of us are here day and night every day or almost every day. I'm sure some of us would deny that on the stand, but there are data so just embrace it.
But wtf are we doing? Especially when no one is posting and during stretches where there are no posts for days? Just staring at the threads unchanged and hitting refresh over and over and over? Like what are we looking at? How will I explain my behavior to future generations?
Groundhog Day for me. I come for the sabbatical watch and stay for the SKUD sarcasm.
I took the over on the number of sabbatical days and lost. What was I thinking?
Quote from: Freddyfud on December 09, 2024, 08:37:00 PMQuote from: Kuiper on December 09, 2024, 01:04:07 PMOne project I'm contemplating this off-season is to start a thread on Recruiting that includes both general information and a lot of sub-threads where parents can discuss specific issues. Those parents are really operating in the dark and they hear from club coaches and recruiting services who offer advice that is not completely disinterested. They could use some information from people who have been there. If successfully plugged by people outside of this form, it might attract parents to this site who will stay because there is nowhere else where they might see discussion of their kid's team and it might attract alums and fans who could put in a good word for their teams to prospective recruits or at least dispel some myths. It's also a nice place to cross-post SimpleCoach's coach-to-coach interviews, which are a great way to hear how a school sells itself and fields of dreams videos, which is the next best thing to going to see a school in person if you're just starting your search. If I do get that going, hope people will chime in. It's an excuse to check in during the offseason!
As someone who joined a little over a year ago while on the recruiting trail at the time I might applaud this. As someone who has now been here for a little over a year this might scare the sh$t out of me.* Club coaches and recruiting services may be disinterested but are generally not anonymous. You could claim caveat emptor but I would still be afraid of unfavorable impressions, intentional or not.
You could make it simple though. One page with large font entitled "The best way to find a suitable program for your son or daughter is to actually visit and get to know as much as you can about the school and the program from the people who are actually there."
Then in smaller font below you could put "Or you can try your best with this" and add a link to the NESCAC board.
*To be fair several here were generous and offered help. Notably they respected the journey and decisions are personal.
Fair point, although I tend to think that keeping a "Recruiting 101" thread somewhere on the first page might avoid having someone wander into a discussion about some long-held grievance as their
first introduction to the boards. My sense is that most people are pretty generous to someone identifying themselves as a prospective parent. I would be more focused on process, criteria, and general information. Frankly, the "Future of DIII thread" on the main board homepage is much scarier than the NESCAC thread (and more useful)!
My 3 obvious points for that thread when someone starts it:
1. The student athlete must self-advocate and the parent should not be the point of contact.
2. Student should not be scared to ask the coach where they stand and where they rank in the recruiting class. Or even if they are still under consideration.
Forgot one
3. without their sport. Would they be happy on that campus?
Hopkins, I loved the BigSoccer boards. I started lurking about there when my daughter started playing club ball. When her career ended my lurking did as well. I found the boards for professional clubs on BigSoccer to be little more than troll caves.
I travel by this board at least daily. Part of it is my OCD. Part of it is that I work for and am a rabid supporter of my alma mater. Always interested to see if anything pops about my Little Giants, the hated dpu, or the North Coast.
The work piece is part of why I keep as quiet as I do. Even in this relatively anonymous form I would hate for one of our student-athletes or (far more likely) his parents to see some bozo associated with the College on a message board talking about what a crap midfielder he is.
Beyond that, I do like to take in the opinions of others on our particular version of the beautiful game. Like someone else mentioned, I usually stick to the lurking as I don't consider having watched the highlights, or a YouTube clip of a controversial call to be a basis for my amateur opinion on a matter.
All of which is to say that I'll be around for as long as the powers that be keep this board up and running.
Quote from: SKUD on December 09, 2024, 09:15:13 PMForgot one
3. without their sport. Would they be happy on that campus?
This needs to be #1 and #1A.
I've seen plenty of kids who don't have the experience they hoped for and immediately look to transfer. Some for "soccer reasons", others for "school reasons". And while there's nothing wrong with transferring, I think kids need to be a lot more introspective and realistic during the recruiting process. I know that's tough to ask of an 18 year old, so that's when the parent should help the student through the thought processes.
My son attended a school where he wasn't recruited because it was one of the few that offered his desired major. He had offers from better soccer programs but ultimately soccer was not his priority. And while he wished the soccer piece played out differently than it did (injured 2 years, minimal time the other two), he doesn't regret his decision. I have a ton of respect for that and was impressed with his maturation.
Quote from: Little Giant 89 on December 10, 2024, 08:25:37 AMHopkins, I loved the BigSoccer boards. I started lurking about there when my daughter started playing club ball. When her career ended my lurking did as well. I found the boards for professional clubs on BigSoccer to be little more than troll caves.
By the time I decided to move on with my life, I was 99 percent of the time hanging around with my online friends on one thread on the Off-Topic forum*. You are correct, the USMNT and MLS team fora were garbage, for the most part.
You did have journalists, like The Wash. Post's Steve Goff that would occasionally pop in with a nugget of information, but it was few and far between.
* - A core group of us just started our own message board and paid the pittance of a fee to keep it running because even our little thread had become overrun by unsavory and obnoxious newcomers who didn't understand humor and/or sarcasm and ruined that little corner of the site, eventually.
I'm a parent of a rising senior in the NEWMAC. I've enjoyed this board quite a bit over the past four years. As others have commented, I'd prefer not to post while my son is still playing. That seems like a bad idea, for a number of reasons. Having said that,because of this board, I recently enjoyed a couple of great weekends in Williamstown and Middlebury. I got the opportunity to see Messiah and Trinity (TX) for the first time. The level of D3 soccer around the country is phenomenal.
For all that post on a regular basis, please continue to do so. The information and opinions are greatly appreciated.
My view about posting while my son was playing:
- I never post about him
- I assume his teammates and/or coach are reading
- I never post info that might help their opponents. (Eg last year in the NCAA tournament my son's knee was lacerated to the bone, and he continued to play, even after ripping out the stitches -- the other teams didn't need to know that!)
Another Mom... Totally random... Are you familiar with the saying "Brother from Another Mother?"
Your username elicits a chuckle from me about once a week.
I can't decide if it's funnier if you are aware of the phrase or not.
Quote from: Another Mom on December 10, 2024, 12:14:51 PMMy view about posting while my son was playing:
- I never post about him
- I assume his teammates and/or coach are reading
- I never post info that might help their opponents. (Eg last year in the NCAA tournament my son's knee was lacerated to the bone, and he continued to play, even after ripping out the stitches -- the other teams didn't need to know that!)
All very good points. As nothing more than an alum, I can afford to be a little more vocal about what I see. Though I do try and remember that these are student athletes, in the actual sense of the phrase, and it is not the entertainment business of D1 revenue sports or other professional outlets. So I try not to criticize players. Sometimes I'm critical of what I see of the team, and I do try and praise players, but I see no upside to picking on true student athletes. If they didn't love the game, and weren't trying their best, there is no reason for them to be putting in the massive time and effort D3 athletics requires while, at the same time, taking away from other aspects of the college experience.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on December 10, 2024, 03:30:02 PMAnother Mom... Totally random... Are you familiar with the saying "Brother from Another Mother?"
Your username elicits a chuckle from me about once a week.
I can't decide if it's funnier if you are aware of the phrase or not.
I *am* familiar with the phrase :-)
Though, to be honest, that's not why I picked that username.
Quote from: Another Mom on December 10, 2024, 12:14:51 PMMy view about posting while my son was playing:
- I never post about him
- I assume his teammates and/or coach are reading
- I never post info that might help their opponents. (Eg last year in the NCAA tournament my son's knee was lacerated to the bone, and he continued to play, even after ripping out the stitches -- the other teams didn't need to know that!)
I think it's always a good practice to assume someone you care about is reading what you posted on social media and knows you wrote it (if you did so anonymously), but I wondered if players do actually read the boards these days. I know some longer-time coaches still do, but are active players aware of it? I know they used to be, but I'm just not sure if they are anymore and you (and other parents of current players) probably have some insight on that.
Some W&L players definitely were reading the board.
I will say this about posting. I'm with jknezek and most of the alums in following the teams from a distance. Both in terms of being very far removed from attending the schools and, quite literally not being in-person for the vast majority of the games I'm posting about.
I know that early on, I was WAY too flippant and cavalier with my posts. I bought into the Am-hate and got wrapped up in trying to look at pretty gnarly camera angles to break down "dirty plays" and commented on actions and words spoken when my knowledge of those incidents was often hearsay.
I backslid and got into that once this year following the Kenyon PK kerfuffle and felt bad about it later. But for the most part, I try to stick to what I can see with my peepers and join in on big-picture discussions where I think I can add something.
Conn players also read the board
The Amherst players that can read, do also.
I found out some time back that my son told the team who I was on the board, so I had to be really careful, try to make general points and talk about technical issues.
Quote from: EnmoreCat on December 10, 2024, 06:21:18 PMThe Amherst players that can read, do also.
This needs more love. Hilarious.
Quote from: EnmoreCat on December 10, 2024, 06:21:18 PMThe Amherst players that can read, do also.
So Does most of the Tufts team
^ glad the Team(s) know how to read.
Quote from: Kuiper on December 10, 2024, 04:52:05 PMI know some longer-time coaches still do, but are active players aware of it? I know they used to be, but I'm just not sure if they are anymore and you (and other parents of current players) probably have some insight on that.
My son is a Bowdoin grad and some of his friends who still play soccer there read the board.
Quote from: EnmoreCat on December 10, 2024, 06:21:18 PMThe Amherst players that can read, do also.
All three of them, in addition to your son?
Quote from: Falconer on December 11, 2024, 12:18:51 PMQuote from: EnmoreCat on December 10, 2024, 06:21:18 PMThe Amherst players that can read, do also.
All three of them, in addition to your son?
Unfortunately Falconer, there is less accurate data available about how many can count...
Quote from: EnmoreCat on December 10, 2024, 06:21:18 PMThe Amherst players that can read, do also.
What a post!! LMAO
Quote from: slt1369 on December 10, 2024, 11:33:11 AMI'm a parent of a rising senior in the NEWMAC. I've enjoyed this board quite a bit over the past four years. As others have commented, I'd prefer not to post while my son is still playing. That seems like a bad idea, for a number of reasons. Having said that,because of this board, I recently enjoyed a couple of great weekends in Williamstown and Middlebury. I got the opportunity to see Messiah and Trinity (TX) for the first time. The level of D3 soccer around the country is phenomenal.
For all that post on a regular basis, please continue to do so. The information and opinions are greatly appreciated.
I wish the NEWMAC, GNAC, and the other New England conferences had a presence here! Wish they knew to find this!
Quote from: Kuiper on December 10, 2024, 04:52:05 PMQuote from: Another Mom on December 10, 2024, 12:14:51 PMMy view about posting while my son was playing:
- I never post about him
- I assume his teammates and/or coach are reading
- I never post info that might help their opponents. (Eg last year in the NCAA tournament my son's knee was lacerated to the bone, and he continued to play, even after ripping out the stitches -- the other teams didn't need to know that!)
I think it's always a good practice to assume someone you care about is reading what you posted on social media and knows you wrote it (if you did so anonymously), but I wondered if players do actually read the boards these days. I know some longer-time coaches still do, but are active players aware of it? I know they used to be, but I'm just not sure if they are anymore and you (and other parents of current players) probably have some insight on that.
Yes, the coaches and players are well aware and usually start reading more when things heat up in playoff season or if they are trying to track down a rumor about a recruit.
Really nice look back at Amherst's national championship run from the local newspaper
The long road to Amherst College's national championship, and a belief in "embracing the crazy" (https://www.gazettenet.com/Amherst-College-men-s-soccer-team-celebrates-historical-season-58451976)
QuoteWhen Amherst defeated Connecticut College 4-3 in penalty kicks in the finals, it stood as the Mammoths' second D3 crown in Serpone's 17 seasons (the other coming in 2015). Amherst has been to four of the last five national title games (2019, 2021, 2023 and 2024), and the Mammoths have made the NCAA tournament in each year under Serpone. They haven't won less than a dozen games since Serpone took over in 2007, and they've yet to have more than three losses in conference play.
That kind of success doesn't happen overnight. Serpone has built something special at Amherst, although he'll never take the credit for it.
"None of this is possible with out him," Amherst senior defender Ben Clark-Eden said of his head coach. "He knows it, but won't say it. The culture and the precedent that he sets, the way he brings people together to buy into this one thing, which is soccer, is incredible. I've never experienced anything like it, and never will again."
QuoteThe overtime loss to St. Olaf weighed heavily on Serpone, and when spring practice came back in March, he wasn't ready to even think about another full season. He told his team he was still processing and mourning a third national title loss in the last four years. He needed more time.
When players returned toward the end of the summer though, it was business as usual. Amherst couldn't wait to get back at it.
Their excitement was met with more tribulation, as two of the Mammoths' best players – both of whom were regarded as top midfielders in the country – went down with season-ending injuries right away. Ignacio Cubeddu and Laurens ten Cate played a combined 20 minutes all year. Amherst needed to figure out how to fill their shoes.
And while the injury bug plagued the Mammoths, sickness did, too. More than half of the team had to sit out one of Amherst's biggest non-conference games of the season, a Sept. 24 bout with Babson.
"It just spread throughout the entire team, and it was all captured in this one moment going up against Babson, a team that's nationally ranked and ended up making it to the Elite Eight this year," Amherst senior forward Fynn Hayton-Ruffner said. "There are like 15 guys, maximum, in the locker room getting ready for the game. Everyone else is outside wearing a mask. We ended up getting a tie in a game that had big implications for our ranking at the end of the year."
Quote"It's impossible to think about this year without thinking about the last five years," Serpone said. "The story isn't complete without that being front and center. There are 418 teams in Division III soccer, and the fact that we went to three of the last four finals and had our hearts broken, that adds 1,000 times the meaning to what's going on. I couldn't be happier, and I want to make sure that every single one of those guys that played on the 2019 team, 2021 team, 2023 team feel just as invested and happy as the 32 guys on this current team. Because we truly feel that we couldn't have done it without them."
QuoteLocal police met Amherst's bus as it entered Hadley last Sunday night, and they provided an escort back to campus – where a large group of Mammoths supporters awaited their newly-crowned national champs.
"When we realized that's what they were doing, we were like, 'Oh my, this is ridiculous,'" Clark-Eden said with a huge smile on his face, referring to the escort. "They shut off the road. It made us feel amazing. And there were a really good amount of people here Sunday night. It was amazing that many people came out in the cold."
An unwavering amount of love for not only those currently on the team, but those that have come before, a colossal commitment to the sport they love and an unbreakable mindset has brought the Mammoths to unthinkable heights.
Serpone doesn't want it any other way. The culture in Amherst really is different.
"We embrace the crazy," Serpone said. "And that's because we are f****** crazy."
Thanks Kuiper, I'm getting goosebumps forever...
Checking in after my one week mandated absence from the board due to serious depression. That was a tough loss to take for the Camels. Just a handful of thoughts.
1. The field was really not good. All the folks who commented on it via the livestreaming were accurate. I walked it a bit after the game and it was about as bad as you could imagine.
2. I need a second opinion. I thought Amherst was lucky to finish the game with 11 players. It seemed to me that #14 (McCarthy), who received a yellow with his first hard challenge of the day, had two fouls after that which were as cynical/physical as the first one. Yet, no other sanction other than a common foul was given. That was my opinion as I watched it live. Uncertain if others saw it the same way - the partisan/homer glasses were on.
3. EnmoreCat. I have said this before, but The Kitten is a heck of a player. And, I would add after watching this one up close and paying attention, he is a good sportsman. I saw several moments of really good sportsmanship out of him. Class kid. If we were going to lose, I appreciate the fact that it was The Kitten who knocked in the winning penalty.
That is all. Back to my group therapy session with us sad Camels.
Agree the field was really bad. Washington and Lee's is much better.
Joining you in the post season depression, especially since this marks the end of my son's playing career.
The rowed ruts on the field were palpable when you walked on it. The ball on the ground was definitely not the way to go.
Congrats to your son finishing what really looks to be a memorable career - three final fours in four years is amazing, especially with a coaching transition in the midst of it.
What a night to be a Vermont Catamount....
UVM 2, Marshall 1 OT1
UVM...2024 D1 National Champions
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 16, 2024, 10:54:54 PMWhat a night to be a Vermont Catamount....
UVM 2, Marshall 1 OT1
UVM...2024 D1 National Champions
Come from behind too. Scored in the 82 minute then in the first sudden death OT with breakaway goal by going around the goalie. The Marshall defender should have never left his feet but he was tired. No excuses for him but when you are fatigued sometimes you just don't make the best decision. The defender played a great game just made a little mistake. Hats off to both teams. Thought they both played their hearts out. Congrats to UVM for being the National Champs.
Quote from: MunnyTim on December 16, 2024, 11:02:58 AMChecking in after my one week mandated absence from the board due to serious depression. That was a tough loss to take for the Camels. Just a handful of thoughts.
1. The field was really not good. All the folks who commented on it via the livestreaming were accurate. I walked it a bit after the game and it was about as bad as you could imagine.
2. I need a second opinion. I thought Amherst was lucky to finish the game with 11 players. It seemed to me that #14 (McCarthy), who received a yellow with his first hard challenge of the day, had two fouls after that which were as cynical/physical as the first one. Yet, no other sanction other than a common foul was given. That was my opinion as I watched it live. Uncertain if others saw it the same way - the partisan/homer glasses were on.
3. EnmoreCat. I have said this before, but The Kitten is a heck of a player. And, I would add after watching this one up close and paying attention, he is a good sportsman. I saw several moments of really good sportsmanship out of him. Class kid. If we were going to lose, I appreciate the fact that it was The Kitten who knocked in the winning penalty.
That is all. Back to my group therapy session with us sad Camels.
I was there as well and agree that overall the officiating was decent - there were certainly some additional fouls in the second half for 14 but my only criticism is that the head official didn't even pull the player over to talk/give a final warning which tends to calm things down........
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 16, 2024, 10:54:54 PMWhat a night to be a Vermont Catamount....
UVM 2, Marshall 1 OT1
UVM...2024 D1 National Champions
True, but definitely not the same as maybe 10-20 yrs ago. In fact, I would say that we probably should not follow D1 soccer. Marshall starters were all int'l and Vermont 7. So only 18% of the starters were Americans. Nothing to cheer about really. Seems that D1 coaches have pretty much given up on US talent which is fine, but nothing for us to still follow.
Just means more D1 and could be even more D3. With roster limits and int'l, may also mean that better talent pushed to D3.
Sierra, no doubt your take is a popular one.
I personally don't care if Vermont's players are from Pluto. Still have to convince them to come to Burlington, VT. Or try Huntington, WV. I wish there were more "American" players, but maybe "we" just need to get better. UVM survived an incredible gauntlet and was the underdog every step of the way except for maybe the 1st round. Still a stunning achievement getting thru Hofstra, San Diego, Pittsburgh, Denver, and Marshall...all on the road.
I noticed the large international presence, and sure, I wish it wasn't quite so large...but imo the two most key players for UVM were Americans...and I thoroughly enjoyed a dramatically competitive match, with an actual winner of the game, and the emotionality exhibited showed me that the result means a ton to the team, school, and state.
On a side note, anyone know of non-FB and non-BB D1 athletes on significant NIL deals? Anything prohibiting an athlete in D3 from having NIL deals? My granddaughter turns 1 in four days and just wanna be prepared.
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 17, 2024, 04:04:42 PMOn a side note, anyone know of non-FB and non-BB D1 athletes on significant NIL deals? Anything prohibiting an athlete in D3 from having NIL deals? My granddaughter turns 1 in four days and just wanna be prepared.
Start taking her to tumbling classes.
Livvy Dunne, Gymnast at LSU, has made about $9.5 million in NIL deals in college
https://www.mensjournal.com/news/livvy-dunne-whats-next-nil-money
DIII players can definitely have NIL deals.
Jack Betts, a football player at Amherst, had 40 deals by the time he graduated
https://sportsepreneur.com/king-of-d3-nil-jack-betts/
The QB at East Texas Baptist had an NIL deal with a local real estate firm - the day after the firm bragged about his season the young man announced he was in the portal and got himself a D1 ride at Louisiana Tech.
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 17, 2024, 04:04:42 PMSierra, no doubt your take is a popular one.
I personally don't care if Vermont's players are from Pluto. Still have to convince them to come to Burlington, VT. Or try Huntington, WV. I wish there were more "American" players, but maybe "we" just need to get better. UVM survived an incredible gauntlet and was the underdog every step of the way except for maybe the 1st round. Still a stunning achievement getting thru Hofstra, San Diego, Pittsburgh, Denver, and Marshall...all on the road.
I noticed the large international presence, and sure, I wish it wasn't quite so large...but imo the two most key players for UVM were Americans...and I thoroughly enjoyed a dramatically competitive match, with an actual winner of the game, and the emotionality exhibited showed me that the result means a ton to the team, school, and state.
On a side note, anyone know of non-FB and non-BB D1 athletes on significant NIL deals? Anything prohibiting an athlete in D3 from having NIL deals? My granddaughter turns 1 in four days and just wanna be prepared.
I hear you. As to us getting better, many, and maybe most, int'l players start playing in the US at age 20 or so. So already at least one year ahead of US players along with some of the best coaches in their countries. Son's roommate was a 21 yr old freshman from Senegal. https://www.instagram.com/p/B6Td84-HCLW/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
Any really good US player is not playing college soccer or only for a year or two at best.
College Hockey has been this way for many years. Guys who aren't top-level prospects in their teens tend to play in quasi-professional leagues (major juniors, CHL, etc.) and then mature to the point that college hockey programs offer them scholarships in their early 20s. You have guys playing college hockey up until 26, sometimes 27 years old. At that point, they're either done or go play in the AHL or Europe somewhere.
Plenty of good US players but a US college education is very attractive to international players that no longer have pro chances. Conversely the US players is finishing up college at 21-22 vs the internationals starting at the same ages