Quote from: NW Hope Fan on March 06, 2009, 10:26:54 PM

Quote from: wiz on March 06, 2009, 10:19:30 PM

Quote from: wiz on March 06, 2009, 09:23:17 AM

Quote from: almcguirejr on March 05, 2009, 11:09:31 PM
Gee, Wiz, I didn't know you had such a "historical perspective" on Calvin basketball.

Gotta run now, but I'll share a little more history with you this weekend.  I think you'll like it!

More history:  The 2008-2009 Hope College Men's Basketball Team
(clap, clap  clap, clap, clap)

How old are you?

(Jesus... Please take the hate away...)

I agree.  Isn't this just a basketball game?  Is basketball (and sports in general) so important that we have to rejoice when our "rivals" lose?  To be clear, I am a Calvin fan, and have been for almost 25 years.  I will continue to be in the future.  When Calvin and Hope play against each other, I will always cheer for Calvin, and my desire is that Calvin always win.

Having said that, for 2 hours last night, I was a Hope fan, and I'm sad they lost.

Quote from: northb on March 05, 2009, 12:37:47 PM

Quote from: HopeConvert on March 05, 2009, 11:42:48 AM

Quote from: miaafan2 on March 05, 2009, 11:34:09 AM

Quote from: wiz on March 05, 2009, 09:21:18 AM

Quote from: miaafan2 on March 05, 2009, 08:36:22 AM
For those of us who are neither Hope or Calvin fans, could we please give "the rivalry" a rest?  While I'm as competitive as anyone, it is after all only a basketball game!

Going a step further, do Hope and Calvin fans take their witness seriously?  Do they think that their conduct during basketball games has no effect on their witness?  Is it just "innocent" fun when a fan trips or tackles a fan from the other school?  How about throwing items onto the court after the other team wins the championship?  What about adult fans who yell (and swear and threaten) fans from the other team?  As a Christian, I am disgusted at the witness of both Hope and Calvin from this past weekend...

You are a Hope fan, evne though you try to disguise it because it is only fair to be neutral and support all teams, blah, blah, blah.  I wouldn't be surprised if you are a retired minister or professor.

In a previous post, you wrote, I've had the experience over the last few years that while I enjoy competition as much as anyone, once the athletic contest is over, it is over.  My self esteem is not changed by whether "my" team won or lost, and I certainly hope that none of the player's self esteem has been changed, at least in the long run.


Well, I believe in the rivalry and, like you, I too am so worried about self-esteem that I really feel for those Platteville players that might be looking at this site and read how we're all ganging up on them and coming together for Hope to send these poor cheese-heads to the depths of defeat and despair.  What kind of witness might that be?  So, I guess I'll just have to support UWP this time around.

I'll take it as a compliment about being either a retired pastor or professor.  The truth is that I'm neither.  The truth is that year by year, I become less and less of a basketball fan because of the behavior of Calvin and Hope fans, especially when they play against each other.  Perhaps this is a good thing - life is certainly much bigger than basketball.

I've been trying to stay on the sidelines on this back and forth, but I would like us to remember what pointlem said a few pages back: 99% of the adherents in this rivalry conduct themselves with class and grace. It's amazing how much good will there is in a rivalry this intense. Through this board I have met Calvin posters who have provided me with wonderful conversation and companionship - as well as some fun golf. Our student sections may occasionally cross a line, but at least everyone involved recognizes there are lines to be crossed (you paying attention Duke?). We are intense during the game and friendly after. I sit next to my best friend during the games, and he happens to teach at Calvin, and it has not diminished our friendship in any way, even though I cheer loudly and lustily for Hope. We are two schools divided by a mutual tradition, but ultimately bound together much more by what unites us than separated by what divides us. The Hope/Calvin games are a great atmosphere, intensely played and usually at a high level, and generally done with fine sportsmanship. They make me more of a basketball fan. Part of the attraction of any game is the subordination and loss of the self, and the rivalry game provides a wonderful, if vicarious, opportunity to do so.

Hear! Hear!  I think it says more about the observer than the observed if you notice the very few people who portray a poor witness and focus on that, than those that can observe this "family reunion" and see all the good.  This rivalry is good and fun in so many ways.  Rarely (even on this board) does the good-natured fun get out of hand.  And when it does, we are open to correction from others (peers or elders).  What other rivalry can compare in the overall tone, as well as the sheer competition; close games, exciting finishes, etc.?  Enjoy it!

Thanks for the recent responses - I do appreciate them and the perspective they provide.  I agree that most fans do act in an appropriate manner at the Calvin v. Hope games.  This is indeed a positive witness to use the terminology I used in an earlier post.  I guess a large part of my concern is looking at where the rivalry has been in the past and where it is going in the future.  I was a student at Calvin in the 1980's when the situation with the Hope player (with the last name of Dennison I believe) got out of hand.  Bob Becker wrote a column in the Grand Rapids Press about how two Christian colleges could allow a situation to get so out of hand that student athletes were fearful for their safety.  That situation was certainly ugly, and I guess I don't want the current situation to continue to move in that direction.

I agree that the rivalry should be fun, and even intense at times.  Can we have this and maintain a positive atmosphere at the same time?

Quote from: wiz on March 05, 2009, 09:21:18 AM

Quote from: miaafan2 on March 05, 2009, 08:36:22 AM
For those of us who are neither Hope or Calvin fans, could we please give "the rivalry" a rest?  While I'm as competitive as anyone, it is after all only a basketball game!

Going a step further, do Hope and Calvin fans take their witness seriously?  Do they think that their conduct during basketball games has no effect on their witness?  Is it just "innocent" fun when a fan trips or tackles a fan from the other school?  How about throwing items onto the court after the other team wins the championship?  What about adult fans who yell (and swear and threaten) fans from the other team?  As a Christian, I am disgusted at the witness of both Hope and Calvin from this past weekend...

You are a Hope fan, evne though you try to disguise it because it is only fair to be neutral and support all teams, blah, blah, blah.  I wouldn't be surprised if you are a retired minister or professor.

In a previous post, you wrote, I've had the experience over the last few years that while I enjoy competition as much as anyone, once the athletic contest is over, it is over.  My self esteem is not changed by whether "my" team won or lost, and I certainly hope that none of the player's self esteem has been changed, at least in the long run.


Well, I believe in the rivalry and, like you, I too am so worried about self-esteem that I really feel for those Platteville players that might be looking at this site and read how we're all ganging up on them and coming together for Hope to send these poor cheese-heads to the depths of defeat and despair.  What kind of witness might that be?  So, I guess I'll just have to support UWP this time around.

I'll take it as a compliment about being either a retired pastor or professor.  The truth is that I'm neither.  The truth is that year by year, I become less and less of a basketball fan because of the behavior of Calvin and Hope fans, especially when they play against each other.  Perhaps this is a good thing - life is certainly much bigger than basketball.

Quote from: ziggy on March 05, 2009, 08:43:06 AM

Quote from: wiz on March 05, 2009, 08:38:33 AM

Quote from: dumezrules on March 05, 2009, 06:54:21 AM

Quote from: MaroonKnighty on March 04, 2009, 10:46:29 PM

Quote from: sac on March 04, 2009, 05:38:03 PM

Quote from: Happy Calvin Guy on March 04, 2009, 04:22:24 PM

Quote from: sac on March 04, 2009, 01:37:49 PM

Quote from: almcguirejr on March 04, 2009, 07:40:10 AM
Team capsules:

http://www.hollandsentinel.com/sports/x617077414/NCAA-Division-III-Tournament-Mens-capsules

I found it hard to believe this is UW Platteville's first trip to the NCAA's since 1998 like the "capsule" states.  Probably because UWP won the 1999 National Championship.

During the 90's they were a fixture in March, they made the tournament every year from 91-99 and bost an unbelievable 30-5 tournament record with 4 National Championships.  1991, 1995, 1998, 1999

It's not every day you can hear the "where's your banners" chant two straight games.

"Where is Calvin?" <clap, clap,   clap,clap,clap> "Where is Calvin?" <clap, clap  clap,clap,clap "Where is Calvin?"

Rooting for Plattville.  clap, clap,    clap, clap, clap!

Gettin' sick of rooting for other teams to end Hope's season yet? 

You guys are something else.  Want to be a part of the biggest rivalry and stuff ballots to make it happen but want all the talk and favoritism to be one-sided.  You sound like an Obama democrat, believe in free speech unless it's somehting you don't want to hear.

But they love deez Hopes

and they love deez Calvins

Quote from: dumezrules on March 05, 2009, 06:54:21 AM

Quote from: MaroonKnighty on March 04, 2009, 10:46:29 PM

Quote from: sac on March 04, 2009, 05:38:03 PM

Quote from: Happy Calvin Guy on March 04, 2009, 04:22:24 PM

Quote from: sac on March 04, 2009, 01:37:49 PM

Quote from: almcguirejr on March 04, 2009, 07:40:10 AM
Team capsules:

http://www.hollandsentinel.com/sports/x617077414/NCAA-Division-III-Tournament-Mens-capsules

I found it hard to believe this is UW Platteville's first trip to the NCAA's since 1998 like the "capsule" states.  Probably because UWP won the 1999 National Championship.

During the 90's they were a fixture in March, they made the tournament every year from 91-99 and bost an unbelievable 30-5 tournament record with 4 National Championships.  1991, 1995, 1998, 1999

It's not every day you can hear the "where's your banners" chant two straight games.

"Where is Calvin?" <clap, clap,   clap,clap,clap> "Where is Calvin?" <clap, clap  clap,clap,clap "Where is Calvin?"

Rooting for Plattville.  clap, clap,    clap, clap, clap!

Gettin' sick of rooting for other teams to end Hope's season yet? 

For those of us who are neither Hope or Calvin fans, could we please give "the rivalry" a rest?  While I'm as competitive as anyone, it is after all only a basketball game!

Going a step further, do Hope and Calvin fans take their witness seriously?  Do they think that their conduct during basketball games has no effect on their witness?  Is it just "innocent" fun when a fan trips or tackles a fan from the other school?  How about throwing items onto the court after the other team wins the championship?  What about adult fans who yell (and swear and threaten) fans from the other team?  As a Christian, I am disgusted at the witness of both Hope and Calvin from this past weekend...

Quote from: Dark Knight on January 08, 2009, 08:24:46 PM

Quote from: miaafan2 on January 08, 2009, 07:28:09 PM

Quote from: Dark Knight on January 08, 2009, 07:20:29 AM

Quote from: Roughrider on January 07, 2009, 11:13:18 PM

Quote from: Dark Knight on January 07, 2009, 11:02:10 PM
The game was sold out, but attendance is listed in the box score as 4395 and the arena was only about 80-90% full -- ??

Possibly a lot of advance ticket sales, and subsequent "no-shows" due to the bad weather?

RR

The thing that doesn't make sense is this: 4395 is too low to be the number of tickets sold because capacity is supposed to be 5000. It also seems a little high to be actual attendance, because of those 20% empty seats.

Maybe there was a significant number of people who came to the women's game only, which was on the same ticket. So it's actual attendance, but for either of the two games.

Well, from what I've heard from Calvin, the actual capacity of the Van Noord Arena is actually just a few more that 4,500.  The 5,000 figure came from very early estimates, and perhaps because it is such a nich round number, it has stuck.  Hopefully the correct number will begin being published.

For what it's worth, whenever the attendance of the "old" Fieldhouse was stated at 4,500, that was also overstated.  Actual capacity there was just under 4,000.  I guess once history is made, it is difficult to change!

It's curious then how they got 4500 people into the old fieldhouse for all the Hope games...

They didn't.  However, since the stated attendance was "always" listed as 4,500, that is the number that they continued to publish.

Quote from: miaafan2 on January 08, 2009, 07:28:09 PM

Quote from: Dark Knight on January 08, 2009, 07:20:29 AM

Quote from: Roughrider on January 07, 2009, 11:13:18 PM

Quote from: Dark Knight on January 07, 2009, 11:02:10 PM
The game was sold out, but attendance is listed in the box score as 4395 and the arena was only about 80-90% full -- ??

Possibly a lot of advance ticket sales, and subsequent "no-shows" due to the bad weather?

RR

The thing that doesn't make sense is this: 4395 is too low to be the number of tickets sold because capacity is supposed to be 5000. It also seems a little high to be actual attendance, because of those 20% empty seats.

Maybe there was a significant number of people who came to the women's game only, which was on the same ticket. So it's actual attendance, but for either of the two games.

Well, from what I've heard from Calvin, the actual capacity of the Van Noord Arena is actually just a few more that 4,500.  The 5,000 figure came from very early estimates, and perhaps because it is such a nich round number, it has stuck.  Hopefully the correct number will begin being published.

For what it's worth, whenever the attendance of the "old" Fieldhouse was stated at 4,500, that was also overstated.  Actual capacity there was just under 4,000.  I guess once history is made, it is difficult to change!

In case anyone is wondering, I believe that this "overstating" is rather common.  For example, I have heard that there have been times when the official attendance for games at the DeVos Fieldhouse have been higher than the actual capacity as well.  Perhaps this is due to standing room, or inaccurate estimation of the crowd size from the game officials or whoever is responsible for providing the attendance.  I would hope that in the future, these attendance figures would be provided by box office sales, and that these would therefore be a bit more accurate.

Quote from: Dark Knight on January 08, 2009, 07:20:29 AM

Quote from: Roughrider on January 07, 2009, 11:13:18 PM

Quote from: Dark Knight on January 07, 2009, 11:02:10 PM
The game was sold out, but attendance is listed in the box score as 4395 and the arena was only about 80-90% full -- ??

Possibly a lot of advance ticket sales, and subsequent "no-shows" due to the bad weather?

RR

The thing that doesn't make sense is this: 4395 is too low to be the number of tickets sold because capacity is supposed to be 5000. It also seems a little high to be actual attendance, because of those 20% empty seats.

Maybe there was a significant number of people who came to the women's game only, which was on the same ticket. So it's actual attendance, but for either of the two games.

Well, from what I've heard from Calvin, the actual capacity of the Van Noord Arena is actually just a few more that 4,500.  The 5,000 figure came from very early estimates, and perhaps because it is such a nich round number, it has stuck.  Hopefully the correct number will begin being published.

For what it's worth, whenever the attendance of the "old" Fieldhouse was stated at 4,500, that was also overstated.  Actual capacity there was just under 4,000.  I guess once history is made, it is difficult to change!

Quote from: section7 on March 02, 2008, 03:54:09 PM

Quote from: knightfan37 on March 02, 2008, 03:03:03 PM

Quote from: AlwaysHope on March 02, 2008, 12:25:46 AM

Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 01, 2008, 11:26:08 PM

Quote from: Erm Schmigget on March 01, 2008, 11:19:27 PM

Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 01, 2008, 11:13:28 PM

Quote from: section7 on March 01, 2008, 10:51:49 PM
Derek Griffin - 1st Half - three 3's and three consecutive point of his finger  at the Dew Crew

Derek Griiffin - 2nd half - zero 3's and ZERO pointing of his finger at the Dew Crew.

You are ZERO class Griffin and good riddance!!!!!!!!

If a recognizable group of fans singles out a player, can they really gripe if the player singles them out in return?

I found your post to be ZERO class.

Are you saying that Griffin was being singled out?

You got me, Erm - I wasn't there.  But as a graduating senior, knowing it might well be his last rivalry game (or even last ANY game), I'll cut him some slack.  (Unlike section7.)

Several comments about Derek Griffin.

He has a history of taunting.  At last year's tournament I was sitting behind the Tri-State fans when Calvin was playing Tri-State in the semi-finals.  Griffin was burning the nets, and after he made his three's he would come by the Tri-State fan section and yell something to the crowd, although I could not make it out.

Last night the refs had enough after another verbal taunt, and they stopped the game to give him a warning, and presumedly a T if it reoccured.  He just rolled his eyeballs and smiled.

Tonight he shot and made three treys in the first half, and pointed to the Dew Crew each time.  He also did the same after at least one other shot.  The second half comes, then Griffin cools off.  What goes around, comes around.  When he started to miss his treys (before he finally left with a 3 for 11 performance from behind the arc), the Dew Crew starts to point at Griffin.  Van Wiren eventually sees it, and motions to them to put their hands down and stop the pointing.

I know much was made of Van Solkema talking to the Calvin fans earlier this season, but DVS looked like a choir boy compared to Griffin's antics.  I like to see a player let his performance do the talking.

It reminds me of the famous quote attributed to former Cowbows coach Tom Landry, who when asked what he thought of players celebrating a touchdown in the endzone, replied, "I never want my player to act like it's the first time he has been there."

Having said the above, Derek was an incredible performer for the past two years, a money player that you wanted to give the ball to in a clutch situation.  Hope fans will not forget his performance in last year's tournament.

At least Griffin can back it up when he talks. DVS just sucks.

DVS 3-0
Derek Griffin 0-3

DVS, regular season title & MIAA title
Derek Griffin - .....................

Derek Griffin 2nd game at Hope this year, how many points .............0

Derek Griffin 2nd Half last night ................ very few points and many terrible forced shots.

Next week.........DVS playing, Derek Griffin not!

Looks to me like DVS wins on all accounts.  Keep backing it up!

While I appreciate many of the last few pages of postings, I have certainly had enough of the negative Hope AND Calvin banter.  Both teams played very well during the MIAA tournament, and fans from both schools should be proud of their teams.  Do we really need to continue the negative postings?

Best wishes to Hope for the upcoming NCAA tournaments.

For those who attended the CCIW/MIAA Challenge, how many fans attended the contests?  I was planning to attend the Friday and Saturday games, but when I found out how bad the weather was in Kenosha on Friday, I decided against it.

Was the weather as bad as they warned?

Since I'm not sure when the top 25 will be posted, will either Hope or Calvin be listed there this week?

Quote from: Old School on May 25, 2006, 05:38:03 PM

Quote from: Dark Knight on May 23, 2006, 09:21:22 AM
Hmmm, I looked all over the Calvin site but couldn't find a girl's schedule anywhere.

Was there a boy's schedule posted? 

Speaking of Calvin/Hope, I'm filing a discrimination lawsuit against the college for not allowing my fellow Wisconsinites to buy tickets to the Calvin/Hope regional final (after Calvin beat La Crosse), simply because they were from Wisconsin.   Posters have told the general public that "if you get a chance to see a Calvin/Hope game, do it.  It's the greatest rivalry in college sports."  Well, I guess it helps if we're given the opportunity! 

I'm sorry to hear that you were denied the opportunity.  I guess that is what happens when there are too many rabid fans for each school - there aren't enough tickets for the "normal" fans!

I'm sure that both schools needed to make ticket allocations based on priority - those who are students, faculty/staff, and season ticket holders typically get priority.  Unfortunately, when the demand for tickets is so high, there aren't enough to go around.

Quote from: northb on March 11, 2006, 10:42:34 AM

Quote from: pointlem on March 11, 2006, 08:35:50 AM
Hmmm. . . Hope has a 28-3 season, and the coach plots a defense that forces Wittenberg turnover after turnover and shuts down their two post players.  Alas, the players miss free throws and open 3's and have several shots rim out.   Even so, they play one of the nation's top teams to virtual draw on their home court.  And after all this (not to mention having coached two previous teams that made it to the national championship game in a division that has almost 400 teams competing) there is a fairweather, short-memoried Hope fan that wants to trash the coach? 

Well, at least no one is complaining about the refereeing!

Imagine Derek VS's last 3-point shot attempt that went in-and-out had stayed down, giving Hope the lead.  That would be a credit to Derek (who looks to be a terrific key player on next year's team, btw) not the coach.  But there would also be kudos for the coaching that brought them back.  Or imagine that Veldhouse winning shot hadn't happened and that this sectional game had been played at the friendlier DeVos . . . .

But those things do happen.  It's a game that involves luck and bounces and near misses and narrow escapes.  When the ball drops, it's not the coach that made it.  And when it's down and out, or when the free throws that would have made the difference don't fall, it's not the coach that misses them.  Coaches assemble the team and can help get you to a certain point.  (And every team's fans are impressed with the prowress of their own players, which individually may seem better in their eyes than the opposition's.  I'll wager that Tiger Fan wouldn't trade Russ, Borchers, and Brady for any of Hope's talent.)

All said, if we're going to judge a coach and team, let's look at the big picture, which for Hope this year is 28-3, a 17-point average victory margin, no losses at home, winning their league's tournament on the opposition's home floor, and a run in a tournament in which 58 of 59 teams will end up on the losing side.  All in all, I'm with Sac . . . a great year.  I tip my hat to the players, first, and also to the coaches.  And to some super fans, including those contributing to this board, as well!

I think the argument is that given all the talent he had, he should have gone all the way.  I know, I know, the ball bounces this way and that, and you have to have alot of luck to win a National Championship (or two ), but player for player, Hope was too well stocked not to make it further.  WWKVSD? We don't know, because he did not have all that talent.  Since KVS came to Calvin, he has been consistently out-recruited by GVW for local players.  Luckily, he can recruit effectively from other areas in North America (for instance, North Dakota), and does slip in some recruiting successes for local guys, too.  Although we do know what KVS did with the players he inherited from Douma.

Should GVW leave?  By no means.  You have to look at the whole package:  He gets the players onto the team, he just has not capitalized completely on what he has recruited.  And even if he went 0-fer-06/07, he should still stay because Hope (like Calvin) is more than the wins, but developing kid players into Christian men.

Rats, there goes my karma...

northb,

Thanks for the point at the end of your message.  Since both Calvin and Hope are Christian colleges, their goals are not only about wins and losses.  Along those lines, for those of you who enjoy reading, I highly recommend the book "Season of Life" by Jeffrey Marx.  The book is based on Joe Ehrmann, who is a former NFL player, and currently a high school football coach.  Excellent book to challenge the "win at all costs" mentality we too often have in our culture.

First of all, congratulations to Hope College on a remarkable season.  No matter when your season ends, it is always a sad day.  They exhibited a significant amount of heart last night in making the game close when I really didn't expect a comeback.

Second, I don't believe that I've read anything on this board thanking Andy Phillips for sacrificing so much this season.  I am incredibly impressed with his humility this year, all for the sake of his TEAM.  Being a senior and captain on the team, he certainly could have demanded to be the focus of the offense and made sure that his season statistics were more impressive.  Add the dynamic that with all the "extra" chemistry issues, he could have had even more reasons to justify being the top dog.  But that is not something he chose to do, and I'm sure that he had to be very intentional about it.  I would also expect that he had to re-committ himself to this several (many?) times during the season.

Thanks for a wonderful season Andy!  Thanks also for being a great leader in a very humble way!

For the first game on Friday night, I'll definitely be cheering for Calvin.  As for the second game, my allegiance will definitely be with Hope.

A few years ago, I could not have said this, as I firmly believed in "never cheer for your rival no matter who they play".  Perhaps this was learned from my childhood memories of my dad ALWAYS cheering for Michigan and NEVER cheering for Ohio State in football!

Having said this, I've had the experience over the last few years that while I enjoy competition as much as anyone, once the athletic contest is over, it is over.  My self esteem is not changed by whether "my" team won or lost, and I certainly hope that none of the player's self esteem has been changed, at least in the long run.

I have had a great experience over the last few years with MIAA basketball.  At times, I've cheered for Albion, Hope, and Calvin.  I look forward to doing so again this weekend.  And, I'll miss the opportunity to cheer for Albion, even though I know that they probably should still be playing, even though there are a few good reasons why they are not.