I think we can safely say 2 things when looking at the all-conference teams:

1- It was a down year for individual talent in the league.  Or to re-phrase, a number of talented players had down years.  Coming into this year i really thoght POY would end up in maine - Ray, Stockwell, or Cohen.  All three played a down a little and Bates really struggled through the conference season.  I think putting ray on the 1st team is a stretch if you just look at THIS season. 

2- Name recognition is everything.  Farrell, Shalvoy, and Rose are guys who all played BETTER than I expected and, as usual, the awards come down to name recognition (or should we say, Lord-Jeff recognition).  I just don't see how Rose could POSSIBLY be left off, he averaged 15 and 6, and although his team started slow - they did beat Tufts, Trinity and Amherst consecutively to win the conference championship.  How can you argue Wheeler is significantly better?  he averaged 14 and 4.  Apparently Cohen's 15, 9 and 3 blocks a game don't stack up either...leaving him off is just ****ty.  R Kelly too, 19 and 9 can't get u on the 2nd team any more? he got the shaft. 


Olson's POY is a combination of these two things.  Although i think he's a great leader and floor general, there's just no possible way you can think he's the best player in the league.  If i was drafting players to start a team, he'd probably be somewhere around 7 or 8.  When was the last time the NESCAC poy averaged 10?  not only that, a potential back-2-back winner averaging 10?  In addition, he was 3rd on his team in scoring and unfortunately the only stat that REALLY counts in this game is points.  I just don't see it, not taking anything away from him, but is RAY the POY if he's on Amherst averaging 12 and 6? because you can believe if you traded him for Olson they'd still be 23-2.

FYI -

i once was easily fooled by those types of last names.  But often times names that end in ak, ki, iak, or kis are Polish.  Strange as it may seem, i bet that's a polish name.  Greek names end in is (as in the end of kiss- democratis) or -es (as in candies - pericles, socrates, etc).  It's an easy mistake 2 make.  

Anyway,

I'll start an interesting thread with a couple of questions:

1) If you trade Ray for Olson, what's the difference in this season's records of their two teams.  My contention is that they'd be the same, in which case...you have an interesting problem on your hands...

this leads to a more important question:
2) what player can you remove from which team that has the most drastic impact on their team's record?  THAT is the POY, my opinion the list looks like this:

1) Stockwell (bates -6 wins)
2) Farrell (colby -4 wins)
3) Cohen (colby -4 wins)
4) Stone (conn coll -4 wins)
5) Ray (bates -3 wins)
6) Wheeler (amherst -3 wins)
7) R Kelly (weselyan -3 wins)
8) Olson (amherst -2 wins)

That would be my list for POY, cuz that's really what makes the most difference

Speaking of the "worst posts of all time" i seem to remember being berated for saying that i thought Farrell was worthy of POY consideration. 

Now that half of the other posters on the board are starting to realize how good he is, i just thought I'd take this chance to say i told you so.

Unfortunately, in this league everyone has always been evaluated on the basis of how they perform against Amherst or whoever the top dog is, or else you're a nobody.  Fortunately for people who PLAY on Amherst or Williams 3 years ago, they play in that gym every night, so their mediocre and poor games are overlooked in favor of their stellar performances. 

For the one millionth time, players at Amherst are all a little better than there counterparts on other teams.  Individually, Olson is the only one that deserves first team CONSIDERATION let alone honors.  Wheeler is very good, but his numbers and performances are a little down this year and he's not better than any one of the following: Cohen, Stockwell, Stone, R kelly, Rose, Farrell, or Shalvoy.  So if you take 4 of those 7 (assuming Olson's on the 1st team) I don't see how you could justify putting 2 'herst guys on the 1st team.   

Hopkins IS mediocre, he's 6'10 for god sakes and like the man (i don't remember who) said, he would have snapped up a mid-major offer in 2 seconds if a decent one had been given to him.  The fact that he's from the middle of nowhere or grew (1 alleged inch) don't help your case.  A 6'9'' kid from the middle of nowhere should average 25 and 10 and, if the skills or even the POTENTIAL, is there, they get the benefit of the doubt.  I'm not sure if that didn't happen in his case or what, but he sure as hell hasn't done anything in the last year to be mentioned in the same breath as Cohen, Stockwell, or Stone.  Those guys can dominate, you have to run schemes to minimize their impact, the tallest one is 6'6'' and they play bigger than k-heezy (as he's affectionately known). 

Herst fans, stop hyping people on potential, it's annoying.  he does put up pretty good numbers for his minutes; 9.4 and 3.5 in 16 mpg.  but keep in mind he's coming in against 2nd team centers, probably playing some garbage time at the end of games.  And if you figure that he'd play about 30 minutes as a starter, are we supposed to be impressed by a 6'10'' guy averaging 6 or 7 rebounds?  There have been wing players that have better rebounding numbers than that. 

Another intresting aside- Amherst has 2 double doubles as a TEAM this season, both by Brian Baskauskas.  I know the jeffs don't play a ton of minutes, but they've never really been great at producing great rebounders...just a thought

geronimo -

playing doesn't make me superior, there are plenty of guys who post on this board who played and you can tell that from the overall quality of their comments. 

another thing you can tell, i.e. your last "retort", is that when someone just attacks other people rather than their ideas or comments, they really don't have anything to say.  It just winds up sounding like a series of broken dreams culminating in a rant of insults fired at posters about whom you haven't the slightest idea.  To be blunt, your basketball IQ takes even more of a hit.

It's sort of like someone saying, "well Amherst is better than Williams" and the comeback is "the Lord Jeffs suck".  You've given up, you're admitting they're right, and you're just trying to get the last word. 

all i'm saying is that there are certain nuances that someone who played the game usually understands that people who just watch (especially those who are simply overzealous fans of one team) don't.


Oh yeah, and if you're going to insult my game, you pick the court and the time.  Just bring your sneaks, some ankle tape and about 7 fresh towels. 

that last paragraph should say "Amherst isn't the 1996 Chicago Bulls"

I love the Amherst broken record

when it's not, "if they were on amherst, they wouldn't even start."  it's "his numbers aren't as good because he plays on a better team."  

Anyone who's actually PLAYED competetive basketball knows what having other good players on your team does for your scoring oppurtunities: it increases them.  Let's not even mention Olson's assist numbers.  At least 3 of the 7 he averages a game are simply a matter of swinging the ball to the next open man on the perimeter.  

To really look at my point you need to look at a guy like wheeler.  Why do you think he's actually scored a little less this year than last and dropped in 3pt %?  It's pretty simple, Bedford and Casnocha freed him up.  They didn't have to run plays for Wheeler, he was just the next weapon on the perimeter and he did his job to perfection.  But most of those points came from decisions by defenses to trap and consentrate in different areas.  Not to mention Olson's 3pt% is down 10%, for that stat that's a huge drop.  Granted, his percentage was astronomical last year, but do you think he got worse as a shooter?  No, his quality of looks has dropped because of the aforementioned 3 point studs.

And again, Amhest is the 1996 Chicago Bulls playing in a league of high schoolers.  If i had never seen them play and just read this board, I would assume that their starting five was the 5 best players in the NESCAC.  the reason Amherst is the best team is because they're the deepest by far, they have good passing, and every starter is 2 or 3 points better than his opponent.  That's enough to account for 20 point wins.  Even so, they do have mere 4 and 6 point wins against teams with a combined 7-7 conference record.

This is not to take anything away from their success over the past few years, but ****, try to be a little objective and take it for what it is.  Their consistency is WAY more impressive than the "utter dominance" feigned by this board.  

PS -
he's also had 4 30-point games this season, someone dig out the NESCAC records and tell me the last time that happened.  My money's on Kanem Johson in '03-'04. 

well, if no one else is going to talk about a school that doesn't wear purple, then i will...

from looking at the statistics and from what some inside sources have told me, word on the street is that a  man by the name of Nick Farrell has made one of the largest scoring improvements in off season history.  If you don't believe me, look at his numbers between this year and last:

'05-'06   12.8 ppg, 40 3pt made, .303 3pt % (25 games)
'06-'07   19.4 ppg, 82 3pt made, .408 3pt % (22 games)

his minutes per game are almost indentical (35 and 36)

Aside from the astonishing improvement from downtown, a player on from a 3rd party team told me he'd never seen an offensive performance like farrell's 39 at Bowdoin.  he was 11-19 from the floor including 7-12 from three.  although there have been other great players to come through the league, 39 from a point guard on a mediocre team against a good defensive team in Bowdoin is extremely impressive. 

Anecdotely, my source told me that Farrell hit multiple contested shots from beyond 25 feet, and scored 24 points in the second half when the game hung in the balance. 

I'm gonna throw this out there, in a year where there hasn't been any consistent standout performances, i don't see why he shouldn't get some POY consideration...especially if Colby can make some noise in the NESCAC tourney.

Look at it this way, he's 1st in the league in scoring (19.4), 7th in assists (4.0), 6th in FT% (.780), 5th in steals (1.8), 15th in 3pt% (.408), and 1st in threes made (82) - 16 more than his closest competitor. 

His numbers kill Olsons, who's only got better assist numbers and 10 times the weapons.  RKelly isn't really a factor cuz he missed games and wesleyan is back to its Wes tech ways, Rose and Shalvoy kind of hurt each other's cases and they're juniors, the way Bates has played in conference compared to their talent level and expectations, I don't think you give it to Ray or Stockwell.  That tufts kid off the bench is too new, and I'm not sure if he ever passes. 

I think Farrell may have been the POY, but the way the NESCAC works it's doubtful he'll get the recognition because of his teams Lo-cal. 

tell me what you think. 

With the williams thing...

you can't be a significant threat in the NESCAC without some sort of legit inside presence.  In addition, it's not like they're the damn phoenix suns and have all these great wing players (kind of like trinity has had in the past) running around and causing matchup problems. 

they have two guys who are all-league caliber in Shalvoy and Rose, however, Rose depends too much on the outside shot.  Shalvoy is a true point-guard type (Hinrich, Nash, ****....Crotty) he should NEVER TAKE 27 shots.  and for that, i don't blame him, it's the scheme that sucks.  I'm sure he was just tryin' 2 keep his team in it.  AND 15 3s!!? in another game rose took 25, and the rest of the starters 30.  There's no balance, that's too many shots for one player, unless they're ABSOLUTELY HOT.  Rose is averaging 10 3's taken a game vs. 1.6 FTs.  YOU GOTTA GET TO THE RIM and get fouled.  You can't settle so much, it's not always about the shooter, some days they just don't go down and you have to have both dimensions to your game. 

Think about all the nescac teams since 2002 with over a 6-3 record, they've all had AT LEAST 1 excellent forward/center to rely on (WIL03 Demuth, WIL 03/04 Coffin, AMH03 Zieja, TRIN04-06 Rhoten, BOW04Petrie, AMH04/05Scheil, TUF05 Stovell, BAT 05/06 Stockwell, TUF06 Martin) That's every 6-3 + team since '02, the only exception to this rule was Amherst last year who was incredibly deep and started both Casnocha 6'6'' and Wheeler 6'5'' who could play inside/outisde and are very strong players.  In reality, Rose is just a 6'5'' 215 lbs SG. 

Williams needs to understand they won't win NESCAC games playing like they are now, playing like this, they don't have any control over their own fate.  They can't control tempo or matchups. 

tell me what you think....

I just got the report from B-wick,

61-60 bates, in a game that sounded like it was close all the way.  Bowdoin actually went up 9 with 14:44 left.  If you go to www.bowdoin.edu/athletics and click on the link, they'll give you a write up.

too bad for the bears, sounded like a win they coulda had.  looks like hippert got hot, i think bowdoin's a team that could suprise a lot of people, they have a lot of weapons.  

Tonight Stockwell had 11, I was a little off on my prediction 67-58, but I got the winner right, and was off in the total number of points by 4.  

Part of my prediction was based on reports from past seasons.  In addition, last year at Bates in the playoffs, stockwell was nearly absent in the first half and the bears took a 9 point lead into halftime.  He came out and went to work in the second half and that's how Bates built up the lead.  

In the game where he had 5 (the first one), one more minute would have given that one to the bears.  it ended at 57-54, and Bowdoin was hot and on something like a 14-3 run to close out the game.

If anyone hits up the bates-bowdoin game, I'd like to here a report. 

I think it's gonna be a close one, I'd look for the Bradley/Ray matchup to be big.  Although I think Stockwell and Ray may be the best players on the floor, I think if bowdoin can distribute the ball they'll give the bobcats some trouble.  If not, it could be a long night for the bears. 

my score predictions depend on stockwell's scoring output:

Less than 5, Bowdoin 64 Bates 52
Less than 10, Bowdoin 62 Bates 55
10 to 15    Bates 67 Bowdoin 58
15 to 20    Bates 69 Bowdoin 53
20 +    Bates 71 Bowdoin 51

Needless to say, I think stockwell's the guy to watch tonight in the 'wick.

GO get 'em bears.

nescac1,

maybe it's just me, but I'm not really suprised the Nescac is having it's early season problems.

Look at the competetive teams from last year

Amherst (8-1) lost their best and go-to player in Bedford, and an underratted Casnocha who I think was just as valuable as Wheeler in his ability to stretch defenses and guard the best player on other teams...

Trinity (7-2) lost there 4-year go to guy, Rhoten could get you 19 and 8 in his sleep and made everyone else in his team look better (see Kino Clarke)

Tufts (6-3) lost a 6'9'' center with great touch that averaged 16 and 8 and took about 9 free throws a game and, as someone mentioned, held their defense down

Bates (6-3) didn't lose any key players, hence they're kicking ass

Bowdoin (5-4) lost petrie, another 16 and 8 guy who had been there go-to player for 3 years

Williams (5-4) lost the only player who kept them from playing like Grinell last year in Newton, again a 6-8 guy with skill means a lot in division 3

Anyone who thought these teams (except Bates) were going to be as good as they were last year at the begining of the season hadn't been paying attention for the few years.  All of these guys were major factors in their teams success over at least the last 3 years and many of these teams lack a player to step into their shoes.  I think Amherst, Bates, and Bowdoin retained the most and will have some success because of it. 
Again, my predictions for this years NESCAC:

Amherst 9-0 (re-loaded, 24-1)
Bates 7-2 (undeafted non-conference, finish at 22-2)
Bowdoin 6-3 (4 talented returning starters, 16-8)
Tufts 6-3 (Will struggle with identity and defense, 15-9)
Trinity 5-4 (Could be better, may fall apart 16-8)
Conn 5-4 (Lot of upside, always seem to be young, 14-10)
Will 3-6 (Need a solid post, defense 13-11)
Colby 3-6 (Cohen's solid but they need a go2 wing, 11-13)
Wes 1-8 (R. kelly's tp4 isn't gonna mean much, 7-17)
Mid 0-9 (I'll believe it when i see it, 5-19) 

Formerbant,

I know that Cohen had ridiculous numbers, but numbers aren't everything.  If you just went by the stats, Cohen would have won POY last year; my guess is that if the coaches could have voted for 1, 2, and 3; he probably still wouldn't have gotten any votes.  Again, i must re-emphasize that this is to take nothing away from him, I think he was the only junior deserving of first team. 

Rhoten and Cohen look the same on paper, they just don't have the same impact on a team.  That's why you can't just go by stats.  So if you're looking at impact big man, I would have to go with Stockwell.  Speaking from experience, he's a MUCH tougher matchup; and although he's cheap at times, his physicality wears down other teams.  Altough I think Ray is a great floor leader, that doesn't get you 16 straight wins, that all comes on the shoulders of the main guy down low. 

Cohen would be PERFECT for a team that had one explosive wing player to take the pressure off him and he's such a good defense player.  I just don't think he's the type of guy you can just keep giving the ball to and expect to win games.  Let's not overlook the fact that the refs up in maine love this guy, he got to the line over 30 more times (almost 10 p/g-that's some allen iverson ****) more than the next closest guy; and that was Martin and he's a beast.  He doesn't shoot threes, and a dominant big man who gets a lot of misses wiped away by "fouls" should be shooting about 54-57%, Like martin.  He's also not the greatest passer in the world, he has a 2:1 assist to turnover ratio in the wrong direction. 

I think those two will battle for POY when it comes down to it, I just think that Bates' string of wins and stockwell's toughness will stick in the coaches minds. 

Although I agree with the direction of most of these posts, I have 2 points of issue concerning the upcoming year:

1) These people who keep saying Amherst has "all their weapons back" or is "re-loaded" need to slow down.  The last time I checked, they lost one of the best few players in the league last year, and a 6'6'' guy who shot 41% from three.  No matter how good the guys coming in for them are, you can't just assume that they're going to immediately slide back into form.  I think Wheeler is a great player, but the thing that's made amherst so tough the last 5-6 years is that they've always had a strong go2 player: Zieja, Scheil, Bedford.  And although Wheeler's good, he's never been the go2 type.  Oslon, like you said, is a distributer, and I think the fact that they have so much talent at the wing and post positions might actually hurt them if hixon doesn't set a clear rotation early.

2)  I love Drew Cohen, from what I've heard he's a great guy and I know he's a hell of a shotblocker.  But he's not the best big guy in the league, he touches the ball on every possession and usually takes a 15 footer (which he can hit) but completely slows the flow of Colby's offense.  He's a much better defensive than offensive player.  And since he's always rebounding, he doesn't really run the court at all.   

(alright 1 more)

3) And since I'm so tired of everyone givin' so much love to the guys down in mass (wheeler and rose) I'm gonna give a shout out to two maine doggs for the best shooter discussion.  Hippert from Bowdoin struggled a little to find his range his freshman, but shot 43% (55-127) from treyland last year, and at 5'11'' in Timberlands, he had 2 shoot over taller guys, something that wheeler and rose don't have to deal with.  Another GREAT shooter (the best in the league, both in my opinion and statistically) is Gaudet from Colby, a guy who flies under the radar, but is a 50% career 3point shooter and lead the league last year.  Shorter than hippert at 5'10'' and a hundred and nothin', this guy's gotta work for every shot he gets, and he makes it HALF THE TIME.  both are great freethrow shooters too, not that anyone was concerned.   

K4

I do think Weitzen and Shepard are good players, as is the case with Olsen and Wheeler; but you've got to understand something about Stockwell and Ray- they've been the go to players on their team for two years.  Experience is something you can't teach, and tufts had Stovell and Martin the last two years, while amherst had a slew of all-league players.  All intagibles aside and speaking from experience, Stockwell and Ray are the hardest to match up against anyway.  Stockwell's like 6'6 230 and quick, not to mention he loves firing the three ball  (a little too much last year maybe) nonetheless, he's a real threat out there.  Add in his 9+ rpgs and you've got a rare commodity in the NESCAC.  Ray is better than Olsen, there I said it.  Not only has he proven it as the TRUE leader of a team for 2 years, he is the focal point of other teams defenses when it comes to the perimeter.  Olsen might be a better traditional floor general than Ray, but he sure as hell isn't a better defender and he's not quicker.  Not to mention, he usually gets the 5th best defender on the other team, while ray draws the peskiest perimeter defender.  Another thing about olsen is that Hixon will never put him in the position ray is at bates, he will always be a "system" point guard.  Hixon's worried more about his pgs getting other guys shots, so its never gonna come down to a 1 on 1 isolation at the end of a game where Olson has the ball or he's running a pick and roll with wheeler, that's just not their style.  Stockwell and Ray, on the other hand, have been known to "Stockton and Malone" it here and there, making them more of a "combo" in the traditional sense. 

Maybe I'll be proven wrong by the end of the year, but I have a feeling that Amherst and Tufts are going 2 be deeper than Bates, so the arguement might not really even be relevant...
All of this is not to take anything away from the other teams' (tufts, amherst) guard/forward combos, but to say that any team has a better guard/forward combo in the league, at this point, is ridiculous.