Quote from: hugenerd on January 31, 2007, 10:07:07 PM

Quote from: violet15 on January 31, 2007, 08:03:21 PM
they [NYU] have played high level competion.

I would probably argue with you about this statement if this had been before the conference season started, but considering we are 7 games into conference play, I guess you can make this statement.

i was referring strictly to conference play, but fair point.

Quote from: mark_reichert on January 31, 2007, 07:07:54 PM
[

Quote
also, it is tuesday and i feel like the 3 days of discussion this game has received has spoken volumes in and of itself.

It speaks volumes about the people posting here, not the game.

im sorry i missd the part where you are any different than the rest of us, as you simply present your case the way we present ours.

Quote from: mark_reichert on January 31, 2007, 07:12:41 PM

Quote
NYU performed pretty well according to the box score against WashU, they actually had better statistics in almost every category--- except free throw attempts.

Define almost.  Here's the box score:

http://bearsports.wustl.edu/mensbball/GAME17.HTM

Turnovers and Steals favor WashU and Rebounds and blocked shots are about even.

to which ill say that "about even" isnt even, one team had more, and that team was nyu. and fine you have steals and turnovers. turnovers mean nothing, points off turnovers are what count so get me that number if you want to make an argument. and if you're gonna argue on behalf of Wash the numbers simply are not your friend. no one is saying wash is a bad team, hell ill even say they probably are better than nyu. but they werent this sunday. nyu was simply outplaying wash the whole game and the numbers on the floor show that. nyu shot over 50 percent for the game, 52 from 3, while holding wash under 35 in both those categories. those numbers become even more staggering when you see that not only does the percentage come out in nyus favor, but the total field goals made: 29-18. Wash only made 18 shots (only 5 3s) in the entire game yet they finish with 79 points. this isnt even a close game if the game is called evenly. but it wasnt 45-12 ft attempts 36-16 fouls. this doesnt happen. of course nyu may have fouled more than wash did, but 36-16 doesnt happen. nyu isnt a high school jv team. they have played high level competion. they werent whistled for 36 fouls against chicago, or rochester, or even brandeis. it wasnt as if ruths was frustrating them inside, either (4-12). nyu outplayed wash on he court this sunday, the game was decided at the free throw line. if the spread was a few fouls, or even 5, even 10 fouls difference, there would be no discussion. nut it simply makes no sense that a team who is outplaying their oppenent would foul 20 timesmore.

in my personal opinion as ive said before, nothing is going to change, wash fans you have your win, and no one has a problem with your team. the refs decided to call it one sided, you didnt, your players didnt, your coach didnt. my problem (and i would like to say it goes for most nyu fans) is not with you or your team. i just think if that game goes down in the archives as a win for wash, as it of course will, it should go down somewhere that it wasnt exactly agreed upon by all.

Quote from: mark_reichert on January 30, 2007, 02:42:07 PM
What I find amazing is that people who weren't at the game can pass judgment on officials who were actually watching the players and extremely biased people complaining about the bias of others.

But such is life in the United States 2007, since everything these days is based on projecting your own worst attributes on others and substituting opinion for fact.

"Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?"

BTW, I was at the game for the last 7 1/2 minutes of regulation, and while it appeared to my untrained eyes that NYU was doing a lot more stuff worthy of having a fouled called, I wouldn't swear to it.

i dont think anyone should use NYU-Wash as evidence for a commentary on modern american society. there are a few points that i do think need to be made. there have been in fact people in attendance at the game who on this board who have come to the same conclusion that people like me who simply saw the stats came to.

also, it is tuesday and i feel like the 3 days of discussion this game has received has spoken volumes in and of itself. there is more to worry about looking forward, including friday's rematch. which will silence one end of this debate [which could very well(but hopefully not) be my side]

Quote from: ball_er on January 30, 2007, 09:35:12 AM
So who are you holding responsible for the fouls in the WU/NYU game?  The WU players?  The coach? Could it possibly be the players for the NYU Violets?  I was at that game and though there were certainly a lot of fouls called on NYU, they were committing a lot of fouls a number of which, including elbows thrown to the opposing team's face, that the officials did not call.  I will admit that statistically it appears one-sided and as an NYU fan it would be upsetting.  But, it should be considered that the fouls were called because the fouls were committed.  Furthermore, speaking of statistics, of the percentages listed throughout this page, I would be curious as to how many of those fouls were committed in OT.  NYU was fouling deliberately to gain possession at that po

Quote from: violet15 on January 29, 2007, 08:35:32 PM

Quote from: stlbballer on January 29, 2007, 08:18:48 PM
Ok, my point was not that NYU didn't get screwed by officials.  It is entirely possible and they probably did.  I saw Friday's game, but didn't see the NYU game.  My point was that I do not believe it was an intentional effort by the refs, probably just a series of poor calls.  I'm just arguing the people who have looked at the last few home games and say the officials are making a point to help them win. 

As far as your stats about their midwest road games...that kind of support my statement of the east coast calling it looser and playing more physical.  When two midwest teams play they are used to the tighter calls and don't foul as much.  Obviously, just a theory.  I'm not saying the officiating wasn't terrible Sunday, I didn't see it.  But that's not something you can judge solely by a box score, you'd have to be at a game. 

bro
a "series of bad calls" does not a create a 20 foul and 33 free throw differential. its nothing personal against wash players fans or even coaches. i and im sure my nyu compadres wouldnt doubt the school's integrity. but foul statistics that are so one sided. it is very understandable to question the integrity of the officials.
it is also intersting to note that aside from the fianl score, the only stats where wash had an advantage were in fouls ft attempted and ft made. once again, simply very peculiar.
as for the midwest argument. nyu had 15 fouls vs chicago (or somehere thereabouts, im not sure of the exact number, apologies)  which last i checjed was midwestern. so i feel like that argument isnt so sound. once again i would like to reiterate that the problem simply isnt essentially with wash or its players or fans. at the core the real problem was with the officiating. plain and simple

int in the game.

who blamed the wash players or coaches? i specifically said they had nothing to do with it. the responsibility for this sham of a game rests squarely on the officials. washu was simply a beneficiary of this. while of course nyu fans like myself are outraged , there are objective voices who have agreed. its not as if the outcome of the game will be changed, you have your win, but admit that this was not exactly fair. i would also like to add that the popular washu argument that nyu was swimply not talented to keep up with wash, and was thus forced to foul, is simply incorrect. nyu had the game won before the offciicals dedided to take the game in their own hands. and the argument that official let some nyu fouls go uncalled is ludicrous. that woul insinuate thatnyu committed MORE than 36 fouls, that from a team that clearly does not have a foul problem (16.6 per game) and is not aided by home officials, as they average more fouls than their opponents at home games. trying to say nyu threw elbows, attacking nyu players integrity, is nothing more than an attempt to get away from the discussion of the games integrity.

Quote from: stlbballer on January 29, 2007, 08:18:48 PM
Ok, my point was not that NYU didn't get screwed by officials.  It is entirely possible and they probably did.  I saw Friday's game, but didn't see the NYU game.  My point was that I do not believe it was an intentional effort by the refs, probably just a series of poor calls.  I'm just arguing the people who have looked at the last few home games and say the officials are making a point to help them win. 

As far as your stats about their midwest road games...that kind of support my statement of the east coast calling it looser and playing more physical.  When two midwest teams play they are used to the tighter calls and don't foul as much.  Obviously, just a theory.  I'm not saying the officiating wasn't terrible Sunday, I didn't see it.  But that's not something you can judge solely by a box score, you'd have to be at a game. 

bro
a "series of bad calls" does not a create a 20 foul and 33 free throw differential. its nothing personal against wash players fans or even coaches. i and im sure my nyu compadres wouldnt doubt the school's integrity. but foul statistics that are so one sided. it is very understandable to question the integrity of the officials.
it is also intersting to note that aside from the fianl score, the only stats where wash had an advantage were in fouls ft attempted and ft made. once again, simply very peculiar.
as for the midwest argument. nyu had 15 fouls vs chicago (or somehere thereabouts, im not sure of the exact number, apologies)  which last i checjed was midwestern. so i feel like that argument isnt so sound. once again i would like to reiterate that the problem simply isnt essentially with wash or its players or fans. at the core the real problem was with the officiating. plain and simple

Quote from: hugenerd on January 29, 2007, 06:36:04 PM

Quote from: Hoops Fan on January 29, 2007, 10:53:48 AM

Could it also just be that WashU seems to be a step ahead of everyone else this year that might require more fouls than other teams?

What are the numbers for conference games on the road?  Is there the same basic pattern?

In their road games, in conference, WashU is averaging exactly the same number of fouls received and committed (17 a game). 

As for the midwest argument: Against Chicago they committed 18 fouls and were fouled 10 times.  Against Case they committed 12 fouls and were fouled 16 times.  Those numbers look a lot lower than 36.  Against Chicago, they were only fouled 10 times.  So, in their road midwest games, they have actually committed more fouls against opponents then they have been fouled themselves (15 vs 13 per game).

You can be as loyal a WashU fan as you want or think that refs never decide the game, but when you look at the numbers for that game in particular and also consider the fact that NYU was leading for most of the game (meaning there would be no reason for them to foul intentionally at the end of the game), you just have to admit there was a huge homecourt bias.

Wash U scored 48% of their points from the free throw line in that game.  I am not sure what that value is for an average game, but 48% seems really high.  Not only did they score nearly half their points from the line, but they scored 30 more points than NYU at the line in that game (that works out be nearly 5 times as many free throws made for WashU than NYU, and nearly 4 times as many attempted).

In conclusion, I am by no means an NYU fan.  The only thing I like about NYU is that when we played there they would give us really good pizza after the games.  However, whatever arguments you are going to make, they still dont add up to 20 more fouls.

38 fouls in a 45 minute game is nearly a foul per minute.  If you consider the average possession is 25 seconds (and consider that possessions alternate, so in a 75 second span each team would have 1.5 possessions), that means that NYU had to foul WashU once every 1.5 possesions.  If you are still going to argue, that means that 2 out of every 3 times WashU came down the court, NYU fouled.  That is ridiculous and ludicrous.  Even if you make a safe estimate, it still comes out to at least one foul every other possession, which is still absurd.

As for the, why would the refs choose this game out of all the games to be really biased when they havent done it before, argument.  Well, who says they havent done it in the past.  Since it is pretty well known that NYU is a very strong team, and also that WashU is doing well this year and this game means alot, they would have alot of motivation to help "their" team win.

These are just my opinions.  I didnt go to the game, but I did talk to a few people and look at the box score thoroughly.  And I still think NYU got hosed.

hugenerd serious accolades for bringing some credibility to the feelings of all nyu fans by your unbiased agreement with the conclusion we(and i am confident i speak for all of the nyu faithful) have come to. at least the issue has been brought to light in some public manner

Quote from: Marty Peretz on January 28, 2007, 04:59:08 PM
Also, I will give Violet 15 this: we were all over Decorso. Save for the sock armed lefty though, we were mostly complimentary of the NYU team. And perhaps you should reveal your true stripes, as number 15 on the violets is, of course, Decorso.  Boone got nothing but praise from us and we repetedly spoke of NYU's strong play and strong team. While it would be fair of you to say we were unprofessional in our comments concerning Decorso, it is unfair to say we were biased overall.

well id first like to say that the 15 is acoincidence in all seriousness having nothing to do with decorso. seriously. dont want to drag him into this. much of my anger was probably feuled by what was going on in the game. the main problem i had with the broadcast was only with value judgements which seemed to be being made against nyu players as being "dirty" whereas (though i am of course biased, i will admit that) i have never experienced any underhandedness on thier part.
no hard feelings marty?

ps i wouls LOVE to see the game film cause it seems hard to believe an elbow or a punch could have been missed by refs who found 36 other problems with nyu's play

obviously it is entirely possible, and probable that nyu had more fouls, it is simply the gap between the number of fouls, and the number of nyu players fouled out (in particular the 3 leading scorers) that i found to be rather egregious. i dont think you will ever find a disparity like that in  a game that took place at Coles in NY i'm sure if you looked through past stats you'd find this.

personal fould NYU 31 WASH 13
yeah unbiased right?

and there seem to be far fewer away from the ball and "touch fouls" on wash please pat running this site doesnt give you the right to ignore well discussed biased nature of wash's refs

i can tell from the stats on the brandeis game and the stats on the number of fouls in this game but im having a little trouble hearing you down here as you shout from your high horse

nyu has little chance in overtime as ever biased st louis area refs neutralize nyus top scorers with foul calls

listening to the nyu-wash game on the radio via computer. while i may be an unabashed nyu fan, i realize that i would not make a good radio announcer. i have listened to every other uaa team's radio broadvast, and while most do have a touch of homerism, at least schools such as chicago and carnegie seemed to have some humor and shame in that fact. wash's announcers seem to act as if they are professional and dignified while making comments such as "jensen goes in for a layup well i think he traveled i guess they were just long steps then but i thought it was a travel" not to mention "looked like  a foul" comments on literally EVERY missed wash shot attempt (not to mention some made attempts). also every nyu foul is a "good call." all i mean to say if you're going to be a broadcaster be a broadcaster, not a fan.

Quote from: hugenerd on January 01, 2007, 08:27:12 PM

Quote from: Rhodes Scholar on January 01, 2007, 04:43:00 PM

Quote from: hugenerd on December 31, 2006, 12:37:57 PM

Quote from: Rhodes Scholar on December 31, 2006, 12:18:24 PM
I saw NYU beat Clark, 74-64, yesterday. NYU had a strong first half, but was sluggish in the second half. Clark never quit and hit a lot of three pointers down the stretch to keep the score respectable.

NYU is a solid team and has an excellent front line in Boone, Falcon and DeCorso. The Violets also picked up a good point guard in Matthew Wilson, a freshman from Texas. Wilson will look to fill the void created by the departure of Jared Kildare.

I just wish they would play some tougher out of conference opponents.  I agree that they have alot of talent but the last few years they have won nearly all their games out of conference but then struggled to some extent in conference.  I dont know if their out of conference schedule is really preparing them for conference play. I am not familiar with all the teams they have played, but none of those wins are against real quality opponents or particularly impressive. In the past 5 years (counting this year) they have gone 51-5 out of conference and 24-32 in conference.  You would think for a team that wins over 90% of their out of conference games, they could do better than 8 games under 0.500 in conference.

NYU has played a very weak out-of-conference schedule for at least the last ten years. The reason why they have such a high winning percentage vs. non-conference opponents is very simple: they play a lot of weak teams. For many years, the Violets were an average team that feasted on less-than-stellar non-conference teams and then folded during conference play. Last year was different. The Violets were a very good team and did well both in and out of conference. Please remember that Falcon missed most of the year and Boone was out the last three games or so. NYU was a very strong team last year and probably will be this year as well. Once again the UAA looks very tough: You have Chicago, Washington, NYU and Brandeis either in or hovering around the Top 25.

I agree they are a very good team, Boone is one of the better UAA post players over the past 5 years (Not nearly as good as Seth Hauben or Derek Reich, however).  Falcon, DeCorso, etc. are also solid. I know they have been beating up on these teams out of conference, but it will be interesting how they do when they play some teams with solid big men, like Rochester, WashU or Brandeis.  Any of those teams (plus Chicago) could make a run at the conference title.  CMU will probably have a tough year with only 3 guys with significant playing experience returning (one of their big men, Gonzalez, who would have been a senior is injured and I think will take his last year of eligibility next year).  Case appears to be even worse than last year and I am not sure where in the bottom half of the conference Emory fits in.

As for last year, I wouldnt say NYU was very good in conference because they were in a three way tie for fourth place.  They were competitive for awhile, but faded near the end of the season (not only did they lose their last 3 conference games without Boone but lost 2 of 3 conference games before Boone went out- losing 5 of their last 6).  They were an average UAA team, as their record indicated.  They could play with anyone in the conference last year but just didnt get it done when it counted (but that could be said for alot of the UAA teams last year- alot of inconsistency or parity, whichever you want to call it).

so im new to this board so pardon the lateness to which i am responding to this post. NYU was at full strength for less than a weekend of UAA play. Falcon went down very early, and while he may not receive the national recognition which is thrown at boone he as just as important a piece as his injury led to a huge increase in minutes for a very inexperienced Magee. And while a loss like they had to emory may be inexcusable, every team has a hiccup, and in the first to games following Boones injury, against Chicago and Wash, they were defeated by only 2 and 4 points. It seemed to me that Carnegie was head and shoulders above the rest of the teams, but last year (and perhaps this year, it seems) are filled with teams who are extremely talented. nyu was as talented a team last season, as talented as rochester or Wash or Chicago or any other school whose fans want to get on their high horses. to disparige the violets for last seasons breakdown is simply ignorant, as is to disparige the non conference schedule. The New York City area isnt exactly chock full of d3 talent, CUNYs arent exactly powerhouses. playing a weaker schedule does not make a team weaker. the games need to be played to determine who the better team is, and no one should even care what the non conference schedule is anyway, as it has little to no bearing on UAA standings.