A heavy heart in Florida...Kevin has always been proud of his record of attempted 3's: not makes, mind you, but attempts.   Having experienced Brit's career, DVS must have GUNNED.  Good thing he made plenty...

PickNRoll:

Personally speaking,  althletics  should never come before academics. 

To Realist:

I agree that the GVSU/NAIA situation has been around for awhile...I would argue that the NAIA part has intensified in frequency as CStone (and now Aquinas) have developed.   You make a good point with GVSU. 

To a couple of other posters:

I don't think CStone and AQ would ever have gotten to the point they are without the unbelievable advantage provided by athletic scholarships.

Athletics never come before academics.  However, athletics provide a SIGNIFICANT academic experience.

Here's my take on the appropriate, albeit obvious, change in the frequency of transfers to Hope and Calvin in recent years.  In my opinion, the differing variables include:

1.)  The Zichterman Factor:  When Z signed with Cornerstone (and not Calvin or Hope) it had a dramatic effect on small college basketball recruiting in West Michigan.  Prior to his decision, the Zichterman type player would land at Calvin, Hope or a DI or DII school.   Z goes to C-stone,  they have other pieces to the puzzle, and EXPLODE on to the small college basketball scene.   Scholarship money and the opportunity to compete for national championships lure Calvin and Hope recruits to C Stone, and leave the Knights and Dutchmen looking for alternative ways to get talent.

2.)  The rising cost of tuition.  Quite frankly it is out of control.  Suddenly the reality of paying  high 20's or low 30's over 4-5 years, makes significantly less financial sense to certain players/families.  Especially when another option exists:  Go to a CC, playing ball, and reevaluating after 1 or 2 years.

3.)  West Michigan Basketball has gained some legitimacy:   More and more DI and DII school (plus C-Stone and now AQ) are willing to invest in west michigan kids.  For DI especially,  20 years ago Flint, Detroit, Lansing, and the occasional small town wonder would get offers.  I realize Vaught, Hughes, Pops Sims, Jamerson, Cole, etc played DI.   But nowadays,  DVS, MVH, Visser, Crandell, Wolters, etc. get DI one offers.  Some work out, some don't.   Elliott, Knoester, Sall, Bosma, Holstege, Winkle, Foltice, etc. (Veenstra and Honderd had D1 offers but had some weird DNA thing that landed them at Calvin)  would have received D1 offers today.  As a result (again)  the talent pool that Calvin and Hope had a hold on up to the late 80's and early 90's became scare.  The result was that both schools had to look for alternative ways to get talent (transfers).

What's amazing is that both schools have been able to maintain a high level of academic and athletic excellence if the face of some much change.

Go Hope.

Five best "dirts" of all time:

5.)   The dirt in Bosma's back yard.
4.)   A dry pile of light dirt Eric Elliott once cleaned out of his locker in Sweden.
3.)   The dirt Steve Honderd walked on immediately after dropping 63 on KZOO.
2.)   Any dirt walked on by M. Veenstra.
1.)   Any and all dirt associated with Jessica Simpson.

Honorable Mention Dirt:

The dirt outside the former dorm rooms of three currently unnamed dudes from KZOO who participated in their early MIAA dynasty.

Worst dirt:

Any dirt associated with the Baldwin-Wallace campus and/or its satellites.

Sac,

Thanks a lot for the work that you put in...very entertaining.    Based on your list,  my top three would be:

1.)   Calvin 2000
2.)   Hope 1998
3.)   Calvin 2005

Sorry for the mix up Pat, 

http://www.hope.edu/pr/pressreleases/content/view/full/3969.  (Different source/ National Assoc. of Basketbal Coaches; D George = 2nd Team All American.)

Gentlemen,

I have given alot of thought to the M. Veenstra discussion.  I appreciate the info. surrounding his playing career.  Here's how I broke it down :

Freshmen year:  Veenstra League MVP and league champs.  Bos all league, team finished in third place.  Edge:  Veenstra.

Sophomore year:  Veenstra League MVP and Knights the  leauge champs; phenomenal year for the Knights.  I now know that Calvin did not have the opportunity to compete in the tournament in 1975.  To me it compares to the regular season of the 1995 Dutchmen.  Does anyone know how good of team Baldwin-Wallace had in 1975?  (Look, believe me, I know the heartache caused by THAT game, and realize I could be the target of B-W related backlash on this board.  However,   my personal feeling is that we (Hope nation)  have to get passed it to the point we can mention the game.  Otherwise,  B-W is STILL beating us...).    Edge:  Veenstra.

Junior Year:   Veenstra is league MVP and the Knights win the MIAA, overall record is 18-4.  Bos is league MVP and leads the Dutchmen to a 26-1 record and league titles.   Disappointing first round loss.   Edge (by a nose) :  Bosma.

Senior Year:  Veenstra is league MVP and the Knights win the MIAA, Knights are 13-8.  I am a bit interested in Calvin fans' perspective on how Veenstra's team  seemingly got worse as his career went on.  An opposite trend found in Bosma's experience.  Maybe it is as simple as teammates around him (and strength of schedule;  Pepperdine?!?!?!?).  However,  if he was as dominate as you claim,  would you expect to see that much drop off?   Bosma:  Co-League MVP,  MIAA Champs and National Runner's Up.  Edge:  Bosma.

In the end,  we are talking about two of great MIAA players of all time.   However I can not ignore the following facts:  M. Veenstra won four league MVP to Bosma's two.  Embarassingly, I did not have that info (on Veenstra) when I created my original team.  Veenstra won four league titles to Bosma's two.  Most importantly,  Veenstra did not have the opportunity to play in the NCAA tournament.  In light of this info:  Veenstra  is the new starting Center for my all-time MIAA 1st team.  Honderd is now moved to the second team.   Just kidding,   M. Veenstra and Honderd start together,  and a disgruntled Duane Bosma starts at center for the 2nd team.

Pat:   You're not buying my train of thought, and I am not buying your's.  No one asserted that  D. George was one of the greatest D3 players of all time.  In my opinion, he would be in the argument for the greatest NBA career of a D3 player for all time.  I see those as two very different things.   Here is an example of what I am trying to say:   Based on their college careers, Shawn Respert and Mateen Cleaves would certainly outrank Eric Snow on the all-time great guards list at Michigan State University,.   Snow would out rank them both on the best NBA careers for MSU guards.   D. George was not even 1st Team All American his senior year. 

Thank you for the education on MIAA involvement in the NCAA, as well as the MIAA MVPs.   I used the MVP info off of miaa.org's all-conference selections link.  I did not realize  that the DIII Men's Basketball Championships began in 74-75 and that the MIAA held out for some years.  Thanks for the education.   In my mind,  M. Veenstra's arugment becomes even stronger.

Realist:  I try to be as unbiased as possible, but  realize my attempts sometimes fail.  M. Veenstra and Honderd together on the 1st team,  is a strong/viable arugment.

goknights68,

I guess the reason I gave the nod to Honderd and Bosma is two fold:  1.)  MIAA.org doesn't list league MVP's until 1989, so I wasn't sure the league even named an MVP's in Mark Veenstra's day.  2.)  From my perspective, it seems that one of the greatest division 3 players of all time would have led his team to at least 1 National Championship game.   

Having said that,  M. Veenstra has always been mentioned as one of the greats in the discussions in which I have been involved.   I never had the chance to see him play.  Strong arguments could be made for both Veenstras, Knoester, Winkle, and some currently unnamed dudes from KZOO being on the first team.

I wouldn't ignore the regular season.   But, personally, March performance separates when all other things are relatively equal.  I believe that that there are at least 18 teams in Hope history that are close in terms of talent and regular season performance:  1958 - 1960;   1984-85;  1987;  1989-1991;  1995-1998; and 2003-2007.   So what separates them for the sake of rankings?   For me,  it comes down to championships and March runs. 

Maybe the 1984 Tarheels lacked some of the intangiables (depth and selflessness) that defines Tarheel Championship team.  For me it is potential vs. performance.  I'll take performance everytime.   What I am getting at may be best embodied in Team USA recent performances in international competition.  I would argue that we have clearly had the most talented rosters every year,  what we have lacked are the intangiables that make a team great.

I enjoy the work you're putting in,  but disagree with essentially everything you just wrote.   From my perspective, March and it's related tournaments, define seasons and teams.  My experience has been that talented teams that get beat "early" in March have fundamental flaws that prevent them from truly being a great team or a
Championship team.  It goes back to the intangiables that are so hard to explain yet so very important to successful basketball teams.  Chemistry, work ethic, selflessness, etc.  During the NBA draft last night Jay Bilas put it very well: Something along the lines of rather having a player who hated to lose vs. a player that loves to win.  I think that teams that perform well in March, hate to lose.  

In terms of the imperfections of the D3 system, my answer is this:  The best teams beat who is in front of them regardless of time, place, or any other excuse you can think of...This is where March, because of its very nature, is far different from the regular season, and why it is so important in defining great teams and champions.    Every team that has gotten to the final four and won a National Championship in D3  has faced the same imperfections you describe,  the simple difference is that those teams won.    Hypotheticals aside, here are the facts:  2007 lost to Washington, a team that did not win National Championship,  on a neutral floor in the round of 8.  1998 lost to Platteville, a National Champion/and a team you described as the best D3 team you have ever seen, on a neutral floor in the NC.  

Keep the info coming Sac,  I find it very compelling.

Rookie mistakes...

Please forgive my focus on Hope (and to some extent Calvin) , and lack there of for the rest of the MIAA.  Perhaps I put too much stock into championships (MIAA, MIAA Tourney, Sectional/Regional, and National)  in personally determining rankings.   I can't figure out how the 2007 Hope team out ranks the 1998 Hope team.  I might also put too much stock into the Hope-Calvin games.  The 2007 team lost twice at home to Calvin down the stretch.   They won one  the aforementioned championships.  1998  won two, and won a game at the final four which is, in my mind, significant.   Having said that,  the 2007 Hope team made my personal top10 of all-time Hope teams, and Stephen was great down the stretch.   In my opinion, the 2007 Hope team cannot outrank any final four team (including..hard swallow...Calvin's). 

Here's my all-time MIAA team:

PG   Eric Elliott  All MIAA 89-91, Co MVP 90, MVP 91, Swedish Hoop Legend
SG   Joel Holstege  All MIAA 86-98, MVP 97 & 98, two final fours
F     Floyd Brady    All MIAA 66-68, Street and Smith's legend.
PF   Duane Bosma  All MIAA  93-96,  MVP 95, Co MVP 96, final four.
C    Steve Honderd  All MIAA   90-93, MVP 92 (MIAA.org has Knoester the MVP in 93, is that right!?!?!?)  National Champ,  two final fours.

2nd Team

PG   I wish I knew who on the HM played point guard so I could insert them.
SG   Chris Knoester  All MIAA MVP 92 & 93, National Champ.
F     Aaron Winkle  All MIAA 98-2000,  MVP 99 & 2000, National Champ.
PF   Bill Sall   All MIAA 87, 89, 90. Co MVP 89 & 90,  Final Four.
C    Mark Veenstra  ALL MIAA 74-77, Calvin's scoring and rebounding monster.

Honorable Mention

Ray Ritsema, Hope,  All MIAA 58-60.
Paul Benes,  Hope,  All MIAA 57-59. 
Chip Henry, Hope,  All MIAA 83-85.
Jeremy Veenstra, Calvin,  All MIAA 2000-03,  MVP 01 & 02 National Champ.
John Niebert, Albion ,  All MIAA 78 and 79,  Final Four.
Mike Maciasz, Olivet,  All MIAA 70-72, Olivet won 2 straight MIAA crowns from71 -73.
At least 3 dudes from Kalamazoo teams in the 1914 -1923 era.

Apologies to:

Jermey Cole, K, 1996 Co-MVP
Michael Turner and Travis (05 MVP) Dupree of Albion
Dan "Sweet Beard" Davis  All MIAA 88, Co MVP 89
Other Calvin and Hope players

All Time Coach:  Coach Van Wieren
HM:  Coach Turner, Albion;  Coach Ralph Young who coached Kzoo to  8 straight crowns from 1916-1923;  and, I guess, the Coaches Douma and VanderStreek.

I can already anticipate the Knoester and J. Veenstra discussions.   Sway me...

Thanks for the welcome gentlemen,

FDF:  My post was generated by Sac's assertion in his notes about the 2006 team being one of Hope's all-time greats.  I understand his rankings are based on an offensive friendly computer program going back only ten years. 

oldKnight:  Thanks for the head's up on THAT game.   In all honesty,  although that game was a heart breaker, I have a tougher time stomaching the games  Hope has lost to Calvin as a result of the end of the game heroics by Hennick, Knoester, and Veldhouse.  The rivalry I guess...

Sac:  I agree with the 1997 team,  they made my top ten of Hope All-Time teams. 

Sac,

Very interesting/compelling reading.  My focus will be, in general, Hope specific.  Depending on the definition of all-time best Hope teams, I have a hard time including the 2006 Dutchmen.   My reasoning is  that they weren't regular season MIAA champs.  If you define Hope' all-time best as the top  9-12 teams,  I'll agree (with all apologies to the 1958 - 1960 Dutchmen who had a great run, but of whom I lack a working knowledge).  If you define the very best as top five, I'll disagree.  My list and rationale follow:

1.)  1996:  27-5, MIAA Champs,  MIAA Tournament Champs,  National Runners Up.

2.)  1998:  26-5,  MIAA Champs,  Lost to Albion at the Civ in the tourney finals, National Runners Up.  6 reasons they don't out rank 1996:  Aforemention loss to Albion,  Rowan,  Bosma, Brintell, Spencer, and Van Fossen.

3.) 1995:  26-1,  undefeated regular season,  MIAA Champs,  MIAA Tournament Champs,  Lost in the 1st round at the Dow to Baldwin Wallace.

4.) 1991:  24-2,  MIAA Champs,  no MIAA tournament,  Lost in the 1st round of the NCAA to Calvin at the Civ in ot  (Knoester's coming out party).   Averaged an amazing 92.5 ppg, held opp. to 75 ppg.  Only regular season loss came at GVSU 94 - 92.  1 reason they don't out rank 1995:  1995 team would have never lost to Calvin at the Civ. 

5) 1984:  22-2,  1st undefeated regular season Hope team, MIAA Champs, no MIAA tournament,  Lost in the first round of the NCAA tournament (and in the consolation NCAA tournament game).  Reason they don't out rank 1995 or 1991:  Neither team would have lost back to back games in the NCAA tournament.

Sac, I am interested why you thought the 2006 (and 1995 for that matter)  had a better chance at winning the NC than either the 1996 or 1998 team.  Were these pre-season or mid-season feelings?