Quote from: gobombers15 on January 12, 2009, 06:55:26 PM

Quote from: Nosyor on January 12, 2009, 04:16:33 PM
Chase Tournament Seedings
1 U of R
2 RIT
3 Genesseo
4 St. John Fisher
5 Roberts
6 Brockport
7 Nazareth
8 Keuka

I don't disagree with any of the rankings but what I do disagree with is where the first place games take place.  RIT has to play at Naz on Wed and Genesseo plays at Brockport.  I understand the venues are picked before the seedings and it just doesn't make sense to me.  What kind of an advantage do Genesseo and RIT get with a higher seed if they are forced to play on the road for the first game?
It can't be administrative issues because there aren't any problems scrambling at the end of the year to set up the ECAC tournament (meaning there is a quick turnaround for home games). 

Don't get wrong I love the Chase, I just don't like the home court situation.

C'mon now, RIT usually benefits from that exact situation more times than any other school. Wasn't there an instance a few years back (2004-05?) where a lower-seeded (worse) RIT hosted higher-seed Rochester at RIT and won, followed by hosting higher-seeded Fisher and losing?

Haha. Well I'm not going to complain when it works out in my favor!  Seriously though, how is the hosting determined? 

Chase Tournament Seedings
1 U of R
2 RIT
3 Genesseo
4 St. John Fisher
5 Roberts
6 Brockport
7 Nazareth
8 Keuka

I don't disagree with any of the rankings but what I do disagree with is where the first place games take place.  RIT has to play at Naz on Wed and Genesseo plays at Brockport.  I understand the venues are picked before the seedings and it just doesn't make sense to me.  What kind of an advantage do Genesseo and RIT get with a higher seed if they are forced to play on the road for the first game?
It can't be administrative issues because there aren't any problems scrambling at the end of the year to set up the ECAC tournament (meaning there is a quick turnaround for home games). 

Don't get wrong I love the Chase, I just don't like the home court situation.

Quote from: gobombers15 on January 12, 2009, 01:40:44 PM

Quote from: Nosyor on January 12, 2009, 01:17:23 PM
The supporting cast played very well for RIT vs IC which is what they needed to win that game.  It makes me wonder how much better this team would have been if Foster was on the court for them.  He would have been a number 2 or number 3 scoring option and added more depth for the Tigers.

There's another name (besides Rayvon Higdon of Naz) that I haven't heard yet this year. Did he leave school? Where is he?

He found out a week before school started that RIT wasn't renewing his Financial Aid.  There were some factors leading to it (none within Shane's control) that led to the result.  I know coach McVean tried everything within his power to get Shane back on campus this year, it just didn't work out.  It is too bad b/c he is a really good kid.  Sometimes we lose sight of the business end of college when we focus so much of our attention on the sports aspect.

The supporting cast played very well for RIT vs IC which is what they needed to win that game.  It makes me wonder how much better this team would have been if Foster was on the court for them.  He would have been a number 2 or number 3 scoring option and added more depth for the Tigers.

Quote from: gobombers15 on January 11, 2009, 05:49:26 PM
A few things:

1) Re: Bostic-- I've said it on multiple occasions now, Ithaca's style of play has marginalized him. Royson, you said, "as soon as the guards have a shot, it goes up," and that's part of it. It's amazing that a two-time 1st-Team Empire 8 player has attempted the FOURTH most amount of shots on his OWN team. Think about that. Cruz and Leahy are attempting 2.5 more shots per game. His numbers are down because he's not utilized properly. The games I've seen, I don't see much of a two-man game with him and Burton. They should be doing that much more than they do.

2) You saw how clutch Burton is today. With 2:58 remaining, Burton stepped to the line for two shots, his team trailing 77-67. He scored 11 of Ithaca's last 17 points. The other six points were 3-pointers that Burton assisted. He had a hand in ALL 17 of IC's points in the last three minutes and rallied them from a 10-point deficit. In the words of Bill Raftery, "onions!"

3) Burton scored 28 and his assists led directly to 25 points. That's an incredible 63% of Ithaca's points coming from Burton, and it's likely more because that doesn't account for the passes directly leading to FT's for other players. Incredible.

4) Whether I agree with it or not, I also think whoever's team wins the conference will take the POY award. For reasons already stated in this post, and elsewhere, you know who I think should win the award, regardless. This will be like last year's NBA MVP race between CP3 and Kobe where everyone implicitly recognizes that the award will go to the person on the better team (incredibly flawed on multiple levels).

I agree, I think a two man game w/ Burton and Bostic would be unstoppable.  I would go to it the last 10 minutes of every game.  It puts the ball in Burton's hands and allows him to make all the decisions.  It also keeps Bostic involved and lets him get up that 15' J he likes so much.  Gobombers when are they going to put you on the payroll as an assistant?

A little insider information for you all.  Carson was sick as a dog during that IC game.  Not sure how it affected his play (if it did at all, doesn't look like it from his numbers), but I figured it might be something worth mentioning.

That was incredible. Bombersquadron I still have the shock factor myself. 

The crowd was not as big as last year but it was still a fun atmosphere.  You couldn't ask for anything more out of a basketball game.  It had all the elements needed to keep you on the edge of you seat.  Two buzzer beater shots to end both halves.  Nice runs by both teams throughout the first and second halves.  Lots of star power and lots of effort plays.  My hat goes off to both of these teams.

RIT had five players in double figures (18, 16, 13, 13, 10).  This is the balanced attack we haven't seen much of from this squad yet this year.  Ithaca wasn't far behind with four players in double figures (28, 18, 11, 10).

Ithaca's game plan was to smoother Carson and leave the RIT's points open for jump shots.  They did a very good job of limiting Carson's touches all together.  He only took 8 shots...8 shots!!!  Before Carson got the ball IC sagged way in to make the entry pass near impossible.  When Carson did get the ball, IC did their homework and swarmed him low.  He has a tendency to immediately put the ball on the floor and go left.  Most of the time it works b/c he is so much quicker then the other big men he plays.  If you can get to him quickly you have a chance to get some steals.  In terms of the PGs for RIT, I'd say they did their part.  Korinchak and Lowe combined for 31 pts on 10 of 22 shooting, 8 boards, 7 assists and 5 TOs in 45 min of play.  Those numbers are very comparable to Burton's on the night.  I would take that out of my point guards every single game (who wouldn't?)

This is the first I have seen IC and they are an extremely dangerous team.  I think they could make a very good run in the NCAA tournament this year.  They score so many points b/c they shoot the ball quickly.  If one of their guards has a good look it's going up. That means they are never out of any single game.  Even if they get down by 15 points they have the ability to string together 3 or 4 threes in a matter of a minute.  If you want to beat this team you absolutely must be winning the game going into the last minute because they will not miss foul shots.  I don't see many teams coming from behind at the end of games. 

Maybe Bostic just had a down game (7 points and 12 boards) offensively or maybe i'm over critical, but I was not impressed.  He is strictly a jump shooter.  I can only recall him driving at Carson once.  Te was anticipating contact, didn't get it, and blew the finish.  He only had 4 free throws while playing 36 minutes.  That is a sign that your star big man is not aggressive.  He doesn't attack the hoop like I think he has the ability to.

Now on to the talk of the boards from the last week.  Carson or Burton?  My answer...?? I realize Burton had a triple double, he played a very good game.  He did have 7 TOs however, which led to several gimmie buckets for RIT.  7 turnovers are too many for a player of his skill.  Burton's shot is pure.  He elevates effortlessly and can hit shots over anyone at any time from anywhere.  He's a scorer and a very good one.

Carson ended the game with 15 points and 23 rebounds.  It is incredible the presence he commands in the paint.  I wish I kept track of how many times just him being around the hoop and contesting shots made the IC players alter their shot and miss. 
On the boards is where he was most impressive.  Bostic was trying his best to push him out of the paint, he just wouldn't budge.  It has gotten to the point that when a shot is taken by the opposing team, all four other RIT players can immediately start their transition offense because they know Carson will come down with the rebound.  It's automatic, I've honestly never seen anything like it.

So in my opinion.  There's no winning this debate.  It will probably go to the player who's team wins the league and I think I'd be ok with that.

Anyone going to the RIT vs Ithaca game today?  If you have a chance I recommend it.  Should be a great experience for a D3 game...now if they only scheduled it when the GIANTS weren't playing I'd be a much happier man.

Friday

Alfred (68) at Hartwick (71)
Fisher (66) at Utica (69)
Nazareth (75) at Ithaca (87)

I think the first two games are a toss up.  I don't want to sound cliche but I think it really comes down to which teams play harder.  Nazareth has yet to beat anyone and Ithaca has yet to lose to anyone, no reason to think that will change tonight.

Alfred (60) at Utica (69)

Utica always plays tough at home and even though they are 3-5, none of their losses are to very bad teams.  Alfred: I have yet to see enough out Alfred to give them a win on the road.

Fisher (71) at Elmira (54)
Ithaca (81) at RIT (71)

Fisher wins handily.  While I am an RIT fan and a Mark Carson for MVP supporter. I do not think they have enough fire power for this one.  Ithaca has a lot of scorers and I'm not sure RIT can keep up that pace.  They will need to have a very good shooting night especially from 3.  But who knows, maybe the young guys will be jacked up for the big crowd and they'll play better then anyone knew they could.

Quote from: Bombers798891 on January 08, 2009, 01:24:40 PM
Couple of points from different posters to address:

1) Good point that the Knicks didn't run their offense through their PG but through Ewing. Here's the thing though. Someone had to be there to get Ewing the ball. Ewing couldn't do it himself. Carson's not going to bring the ball up, shake a defender and pop a three on his own. Someone else has to bring it up, get him the ball in a position to score. 

2) While Burton isn't the only guy on the Bombers who can score, part of the reason Leahy gets so many open looks is because you have to watch out for Burton. Same with Bostic. When you play the Bombers, you're not trying to shut down Leahy or Bostic. You're trying to shut down Burton.

3) I've never liked the "He leads all of the divisions" in some stat argument. Stephanie Cleary of IC led all of the NCAA in steals one season, and I'm talking women and men. What does that mean though? That she was the best defender in the country? God no. She played against some teams that would probably lose by 20 to a good high school team. More doesn't equal better once you start crossing divisions. Dominant D-III players always look a little better because there's not a lot of elite competition. Look at Elmira. This team won 6 games in three seasons. You don't see that in D-IA, and if you do, it's not from major conferences. I don't see Nate Kmic getting any "He's the best RB in the country" talk because he had more yards than anyone else. You'd take him over a Shon Greene or Javon Ringer?

4) I'm not sure how we can give Carson credit for RIT being an unexpected 5-0 in the E8 and not give the same credit to Burton for the Bombers having the best start and highest ranking in team history. Ithaca was supposed to be good, yes, but not THIS good. Did anyone else peg them at 11-0? Doubtful. #12 in the country?

5) This may seem a little unfair, but honestly, how many D-III schools have a legitimate big men? Carson is 6-6, 240 according to the RIT site. How many guys are that big and get significant playing time? (Not counting the 310 pound kid at SJF who apparently never plays) I mean, based on size alone, Carson's got an advantage, simply because D-III lacks a lot of true big men

Bombers I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with a few of your points. 

1) Just because someone else brings the ball up does not mean he relys on other people to get the ball in a scoring position (although it definately helps).  I remember a coach once telling some big men that I have played with, "So the point won't give you the ball, what are you going to do?" after no response the coach said, "You're going to attack the rim and get the ball."

Currently Carson is averaging about 5 offensive rebounds a game.  That's 5 possessions where he obtains the ball adjacent to the hoop (essentially either a foul or bucket).  He isn't a player like Carmelo Anthony that gets no rebounds and needs someone to pass him the ball to score.  If you don't pass Carson the ball, he'll find a way to get it in his hands and put it in the hoop.

2) I'm not sure your point with how teams gear in on stopping Burton.  Of course they do, otherwise we wouldn't be having this debate on Burton and Carson.  I think it is a moot point and the focus of every coach's gameplan is to "slow" down Burton or Carson.  If the argument is who makes their teammates better, it is very difficult to say.

On one hand, Burton always has the ball and his hand which means he can easily find his teammates.  It is very easy to see how a point guard has a positive effect on the rest of the players on his team.

On the other hand, Carson doesn't always have the ball in his hand which is sometimes as dangerous as when it is in his hand.  What I mean by that is that the amount of attention he commands at all times can open up the floor for the rest of his teammates.  When Carson doesn't have the ball you need to have one defender in front denying and a weak side defender 1 to 2 steps further in then normal.  This creates additional time for a shooter on the weakside to get his shot off.  When Carson does have the ball...well, I'm not really sure what you do.  You could double team and leave someone open for a shot or you can play him straight up and hope he doesn't foul out every single one of your big men.  My point is that it isn't as readily identifiable to see the affect Carson has on the rest of his teammates.  That is why I implore you all to watch how RIT plays with and without Carson on the floor.  Do the same with Ithaca and Burton.

4) I think much of this point has to do with last year.  Ithaca finished first in the conference and returned everyone of value.  Is it really that much of a surprise they are 11-0?  Not to me...yes I think 10-1 or 9-2 would be more realistic of a projection, but are we really that surprised this team is winning all their games?  RIT on teh other hand finished 6th last year and lost a few legitmate ball players.  So in my opinion, yes it is quite a surprise RIT is 5-0 in the conference.

5) I'd have to agree with you on this one.  Even U of R doesn't have the big men they've had in the past and Carson looked like a man against boys vs them.  There just aren't enough big bodies around to give him competition. 

We all know there is no answer to this debate at this point in the season (may not be an answer at the end of the season) but it sure is fun to talk about.

Quote from: gobombers15 on January 07, 2009, 06:46:47 PM

Quote from: Nosyor on January 07, 2009, 03:13:05 PM
I'm new to the boards and figured I'd start to chime in.  I was at the RIT vs Fisher game last night and Carson was as impressive as his number show.  At this point he has to be the MVP of the league.  If you take him off the court this RIT team is very young and unproven (nicely put).  Watch how the team plays when Carson is resting on the bench.  Both their scoring and defense get much much worse.  With Carson in the game the rest of the players can ease into their roles.  Young, Sweet, and Roe are always a threat from the outside.  This makes it difficult for teams to double down on Carson, there is always a shooter waiting.  Korinchak reminds me of Rajon Rondo.  He scores points, gets rebounds, assists, and lots of steals.

I'm looking forward to the game this Sunday vs Ithaca.  The President of RIT has made a proposition to dye his hair orange if both sides of the bleachers are full for the boys and girls games.  I remember this one last year and the place was packed and very loud.  It was a great atmosphere for a D3 game.  RIT has played Ithaca tough the past few years and I'd expect this one to follow suit.

Not surprisingly, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree that Carson would or should be E8 POY at this point. Again, not surprisingly, I'd have to give the nod to Sean Burton. He's the best player on the #12 team in the nation. He leads the conference in scoring, 2nd in assists and generally dominates the game in a way that not a lot of 5'9'' players can. Without him, Ithaca couldn't run the high octane offense that they do, at least not nearly as efficiently. He gets open shots for his teammates and makes each of them SIGNIFICANTLY better players, the true mark of a "superstar." Burton also gets it done when the chips are down. For example, he scored 11 of the last 13 Ithaca points in a big road victory at St. Lawrence.

Carson is a very good player and will more likely than not be a 1st team player (I think you'll see both Carson and Bostic on 1st team). He has improved immensely over his career and is now receiving due recognition. But I just don't think his accomplishments eclipse what Burton has done and where Burton has taken the Ithaca program.

Ithaca has a better cast of players then RIT does. I think we would all agree with that.  In my opinion, if you were to take Burton off of Ithaca they would still be a top 4 team, possibly the number 1.  If you take Carson off of RIT they finish 6 at best.  Carson controls both ends of the floor.  He alters shots and eliminates second chance points on defense and scores on offense.  It's still very early in the empire 8 season and we will see how the games play out.  I'm excited to see what happens this Sunday.

I'm new to the boards and figured I'd start to chime in.  I was at the RIT vs Fisher game last night and Carson was as impressive as his number show.  At this point he has to be the MVP of the league.  If you take him off the court this RIT team is very young and unproven (nicely put).  Watch how the team plays when Carson is resting on the bench.  Both their scoring and defense get much much worse.  With Carson in the game the rest of the players can ease into their roles.  Young, Sweet, and Roe are always a threat from the outside.  This makes it difficult for teams to double down on Carson, there is always a shooter waiting.  Korinchak reminds me of Rajon Rondo.  He scores points, gets rebounds, assists, and lots of steals.

I'm looking forward to the game this Sunday vs Ithaca.  The President of RIT has made a proposition to dye his hair orange if both sides of the bleachers are full for the boys and girls games.  I remember this one last year and the place was packed and very loud.  It was a great atmosphere for a D3 game.  RIT has played Ithaca tough the past few years and I'd expect this one to follow suit.