Hard for her to start a good program maybe?  Got handed a pretty darn good program at Oshkosh and did some good things there, including a couple sweet 16s and conference titles. 

Champ,

Good discussion. We will just agree to disagree.  Look forward to more in the future. 

Congrats to Julia Hirrsig, D3hoops First Team All- American! Well deserved!

Coach Herren does not have a winning record overall, but she is 81-50 in the last five years.  That is not an awful record and it looks like she is turning things around as she has a 35-17 record the last two years.  Are they going to improve again? I think so.   

Average score the last five meetings in LX, SP 58, LX 57.6.  Pretty close.  And only averaging 58 points is not pretty.  If a team averaged 58 points a game for a season, it would have been good for dead last in the WIAC this year, and 8th place the four years before that.  Sorry, but thats not a very pretty game. 

About the returners, since only four have playing time in a game won at Mitchell, I am going to assume that SP is going to play more than four players that game.  That means at least 5-6 players who are going to play have never experienced a positive experience there in a win. 

Thanks for backing up my hottest team argument with the numbers.  If you go back a little farther to Jan 27, LX was 5-1, and WW was 5-2.  That win at Stout was when they started playing better and turned their season around.  I should have put a date in there when talking about how hot they were. 

And I like how you say we have to look at history, but you decline to look at recent history at Mitchell.  What is more important, things that happened 20 years ago or things that happened in the last couple years?  I think it is obvious. 

History doesn't matter as much in this league as you think.  WW didn't have a lot of history until they cracked the top four.  Oshkosh was historically a top four team until recent.  Living in the past will keep you in the past. 

Superior didn't have very much history winning at Stout until this year.  All it takes is one game to change the whole conference race.  I am sure you would have called anyone crazy who predicted that upset, but it happened.   

SP has had a tough time playing in LX in the last five years, going only 3-2 and none of those games were really pretty.  They had a buzzer beater there two years ago and then this year was just awful.  They still won there because LX didn't have their talent.  Now it seems like LX is getting some talent, so I am not going to mark down a "W" just because it is SP at LX.  Are they going to be favored? Maybe, but its not a gimme win. 

About the newcomers, only Flease, Petersen, Bandow and Coles have any playing time of a won game there.  You can list all of the other players, but since none of those players played in that last win, I am not sure they know what its like to win there.  And since they are going to have 11-13 players who have never played in a win there, 75% of the team, it matters. 

And if they know how to win at Mitchell Hall, why didn't they win there this year?  You can't say they overlooked the hottest team in the conference at the time.  You can't say they had nothing on the line as they were playing for a conference title. 

SP got fourth place in 2007.  So they did get lower than third. 

For those home losses against Stout, SP was as hot as they ever have been, they both had lengthy winning streaks, 10 or more games, when they lost at home.  So beating Stout at home should be a goal.  I know they won @ IWU, but that wasn't a conference game and won't count in the standings.  It was a huge win, but doesn't count in the WIAC.  

I know Mitchell isn't a very scarey place to play, but they still lost there this year, by double figures.  And since they play there the last game of the regular season again, its going to be a huge game.  A must win most likely to win the conference title.  Same situation as this year, and they need a difference result.  

And LX did beat Stout this year, at Johnson Fieldhouse.  The home loss against Stout was early in the year.  They were the hottest team in the conference until the tournament.  To think this team won't be a top 3 team is dumb.  They got third, sorry tied for fifth i mean, this year and have everyone back. Just based on what they have coming back, five starters, they have to be considered in contention.  And obviously LX has to win in these situations too.  I am just giving reasons why I think they might finish a head of SP.  Both are going to be really good teams with good seasons. 

Quote from: Just Bill on March 17, 2010, 07:16:08 PM

Quote from: closetothechest on March 17, 2010, 04:38:10 PM
SP had 8 newcomers on the team this year.  Meaning there is 8 people on that team who has never beaten Stout at home in the regular season, or won at EC or LX.  This is why they need to learn how to win those games.  

Interesting how many qualifiers you needed to put on that game. So SP beat Stout at Johnson Fieldhouse and they beat Stout at home in the postseason, but somehow the regular season loss at home is the big red checkmark against them?

Might I suggest the winning at Illinois Wesleyan in the NCAA Tournament was a far more challenging and hostile environment than EC, Stout or LC.

Honestly, they way you talk you would think Mitchell Hall was Cameron Indoor Stadium. Last time I was there, they could have had a buy 1 ticket, get 10 free special had still not had a sellout.

Also, La Crosse doesn't have a single player on their roster who has ever won a game at SP, EC or Stout. 0-11 over the past three seasons.  Why doesn't La Crosse have to carry the burden of "learning to win at those places"?  Why is that only SP's problem?

Champ,

First off, just because the coach at UWSP has won in many situations, it does not mean the players have.  SP was a young team this year.  Flease, Bandow, and Petersen had extensive playing against @ EC and LX and home against Stout during the last wins, but those other players did not.  Sometimes players can get intimidated going into a tough place like Zorn, and since they are the ones actually shooting the shots, this is something to look into. 

I never said Shirley has never won in these places.  For my money, she is the best in the conference.  I am not worried about her winning anywhere, but as I said before, she doesn't shoot any shots. 

And about Windt and her playing time, I understand she had a lot of teammates who played more minutes against WW than Stout, but all of those teammates you mentioned didn't have two knee operations.  They are younger and didn't have her body.  I was just giving you a possible explanation. 

SP is going to be really tough.  I am just saying they are going to overcome this games to win.   

SP had 8 newcomers on the team this year.  Meaning there is 8 people on that team who has never beaten Stout at home in the regular season, or won at EC or LX.  This is why they need to learn how to win those games.  

Pair this with 3-5 newcomers, what most schools bring in during an average year recuiting class, except for a few conference teams, that means they will have 11-13 players who have never won in those situations.  You simply can't show up and win because of who you are, as seen at Johnson Fieldhouse this year when Superior came in.

And about Windt, she has had two ACL operations done in two years and was playing her second game in 3 days.  That would probably be a reason why she didn't play more.

I know SP is only losing 3 pts and 3 boards per game, but this woman was a captain and had a lot of heart.  I watched the WIAC finals, and I am not sure that teams makes a second half run against WW without her.  She started the charge early in the second half.  If she isn't on the team this year, and SP loses that game, who knows if they get in the tournament?  Then there is no Elite 8 run. 

Would your opinions change then? 

Quote from: billys on March 16, 2010, 06:52:36 PM

Quote from: closetothechest on March 16, 2010, 06:09:17 PM
LX didn't lose anyone. 

EC has the best combination of post players in the conference and their guards are a year older. 

WW has the best coach in the conference as she won Coach of the Year this year. 

It is more of a testament to the rest of the league then a knock on SP. 

WW was still the pre-season #1 without those two in 2008. 

Those three losses that I talked about weren't even close.  All by double digits.  Just looking at facts. 

Look, I would never make predictions before the fall cause we have no idea on transfers or recruits. I'm just trying to understand your logic.

LX didn't lose anyone- as compared to 3 pts and 3 reb for SP

EC has the best combination of post players in the conference and their guards are a year older.  Fair enough; but Points kids will all be older as well; not to mention Eau Claire was 8-8 and 10-17 overall

WW has the best coach in the conference as she won Coach of the Year this year.   WW may have the best coach in the conference (based on this logic) but Point has the best coach in the Region!

It is more of a testament to the rest of the league then a knock on SP.  

WW was still the pre-season #1 without those two in 2008. National Rankings mean nothing; especially in the pre-season. Syracuse and Texas proved that this year. In D3 no one gets to see more than a handful of teams ... that will never be a good barometer. The losses of seniors aren't even comparable.

Again, you might turn out correct. I'm just trying to wrap my head around how someone comes to that prediction days after the season ends with what we CURRENTLY know about these teams. By your reasoning I feel like you're actually making the case for Point to be picked 1st.

LX didn't lose anyone. 

EC has the best combination of post players in the conference and their guards are a year older. 

WW has the best coach in the conference as she won Coach of the Year this year. 

It is more of a testament to the rest of the league then a knock on SP. 

WW was still the pre-season #1 without those two in 2008. 

Those three losses that I talked about weren't even close.  All by double digits.  Just looking at facts. 

I didn't state records, it is going to be pretty clustered.  I am not predicting a 9-7 season from them.  I am just saying that they are looking at 13-3 at best if they can't win at EC and LX and get beat by Stout at home. 

I remember WW going to the Final Four, with the only losses of Buechner and Thill and ranked #1 in the pre-season national rankings, and they didn't do the same thing the next year.  The went from a tie for first in 2008 to second in 2009 and bounced in the semi-finals of the conference tournament by almost 30 at home. 

Nothing is guaranteed. 

Here are my predictions:

1. LX- Great Team coming back.  No seniors, Lang and Frank are ready for big years.  How was Lang not even honorable mention all conference?  I am sure Stout would have voted for her. 

2. EC- Post play should still be excellant, and Olson is coming along.  Along with other swing player. 

3. WW- I am sure the reigning Coach of the Year has something up her sleeve.  Just won't be a WIAC conference tournament title. 

4. SP- Needs to beat Stout at home and find out how to win at LX and EC. 

5. River Falls- Great Guard play. 

6. Stout- Heard they have great transfers and high schoolers coming in, but hard to see them contending without Hirrsig. 

7. Oshkosh- Everyones Back, they just weren't that good this year. 

8. Superior- Making a push to get out of the cellar. 

9. Platteville- Losing a good senior class, and now looking for a new coach. 

They have one senior, #10 Ashley Windt.

Isn't basketball funny...not even two weeks ago SP is left for dead, and then after winning the WIAC and two games in the NCAA tournament, they are no doubt the best in the league this year, least in my mind. 

Funny how fast things can change. 

Wait, do you have River winning @ SP on Saturday?  It is Senior Day in Berg and I don't think Point has lost on Senior Day in a long long time.