First things first, I'll give credit where credit is due.  Level, I respect both your view point and most recent posting.  With regard to your thoughts on the E8, Utica, and Berry.

More importantly, and moving on to current games that was indeed a tough loss for the Pioneers last night.  Up 4 with two to play on the road and Fisher puts the clamps on.  Utica puts forth and incredible effort to battle back from a big half time deficit only to go flat at the end, missing a couple of free throws and scoring just one point in the final two minutes.  Gotta give credit to Fisher on this one for closing strong.  

I agree Bomber, that it could be trouble city for the pioneers.  At 18-6 with one game to go, a win in their last regular season game and at least one with in the E8 tournament would leave them at 20-7, and that may leave them on the outside looking in for the big dance.  For the E8 to get more than one team, someone is going to have to upset the Bombers on their home court and that's not likely to happen.  Despite all my  ramblings I can't argue with the numbers. A conference that goes 111-104 would spell a down year.

As for Ithaca they are a team ready to make some noise in the big dance.  Pick your poison.  Who do you try to stop?  Bixby? Brown? Klie?  Stop one of those kids and they have a number of role players ready to step in and beat you if you're not paying attention.  They can beat you in a number of ways are incredibly balanced and will be at home for the E8 tournament.  Finally, talk about a player filling up a stat sheet, Klie is a beast.  She does it all, defends, rebounds, scores, and even has a pretty solid assist to turnover ratio.  Where does she stack up statistically against the conferences best players?

Wrapping up.  It's nice to have some spirited and positive dialogue about the conference.

SOTIER1,

Whether you meant to or not, I loved your post and am still laughing out look.  Again, I've never coached a game in my life.  Quite frankly, I wouldn't want to.  I have no idea how coaches, teachers, or any one who works in a similar profession does it.  They work ridiculous hours, never see their families, and are often times largely under appreciated.  Clearly you're welcomed to your opinion, and I am welcomed to mine.  However, before passing judgement on my sensibilities feel free to try to make an effort to have a discussion with me.  As Bomber has already shown, a well thought out argument is a great tool to help some one see another side of things.  All that aside, I find it interesting that you have so many posts insulting coaches, programs, and athletes yet when someone finally throws a little critique your way you don't seem to appreciate it as much.  Or perhaps you're just so darned tired from waking up a the crack of dawn to tend to the livestock.  Oh well, I welcome your opinions and thoughts, and am more than happy to continue the debate.  In the meantime, good luck with the cows and send some 2% up my way when you get a chance.

Bomber,

I love a well thought out argument, especially when it's presented in a positive manner.  I agree with the idea that one doesn't need to be a chef to know a burnt steak when she sees one.  Having reread my initial post today, I would like to clarify that my complaint is with regard to the frequency of negativity.  

My complaint is also with the nature of the complaining.  I too have never sat on a college bench, and I too have complained when a team didn't play well, a coach made a call I didn't understand, or did/didn't play a certain player.  I have no problem with that type of debate.  In fact I welcome that type of debate.  However, there's so many great games, players, and happenings taking place in the women's game today that it's ashamed to come read a message board littered with nothing but venomous criticism of coaches and players.  

Who wants to mire themselves in negativity all the time.  More to the point, who are we to try to get into the mind of  a coach and judge her integrity, character, or morals.  More importantly, it's very disappointing and upsetting when grown adults insult, belittle, and berate 18-22 year old kids on a world wide website.  Just some food for thought.

I for one would love to start coming on here and read some positive posts and engage in debate over upcoming games, who the player of the year candidates are, etc.  Perhaps this thread might help to get that dialogue going.  For instance Bomber, you have presented your arguments in a wonderfully thought out manner complete with actual statistical research in some cases. Additionally, you have challenged me to see a different view point in a positive manner.  I just wish every poster approached things the same way.

Bombers,

I absolutely appreciate your response and statistical analysis of the different regions.  That is an argument that makes sense!  I also do agree that it is okay to be critical of a team; however, when all you do is negatively critique teams in a particular region or coaches in a particular region then you get a reputation as a bit of a whiner. 

Having said that, and having looked over your posts through time, it should be noted that your posts are usually posititve and ballanced.  By no means was I critiquing your recent or past posts.  I also have no idea as to the inner workings of Elmira College athletics either , and I don't know if their coach is good or not.  I've seen four elmira games in the past two years and the teams always seem to compete hard.

With regard to Utica and Jess Berry.  I actually believe that Berry is the best player in the Emire 8.  My only feeling was that it takes more than that to win.  Who broght Berry to Utica?  Who has designed a system to showcase her talents?  Who has put players around that star to make her even better?  Additionally, how about the players around her?  They accept and appreciate her.  They want her to be great.  They want to win.  Simply put, no one person wins or loses a game.  Everyone has a hand in it at the end of the day.  You need head coaches, assistant coaches, role players, star players, etc.  I've seen a lot of teams with a singular star player go no where because everyone wasnt' on the same page.

Your Bombers are a great example of a team with a star, great coaching, a great supporting staff and a team with everyone on the same page.  While Bixby is an absolute stud, where would Ithaca be without Coach Raymond, the assistant coaches who work so hard to continue to build a quality program?  Where would they be without Brown or Klie?  Finally, where would they be without an athletic administration that clearly cares about winning?  In my humble oppinion there's a lot of hands contributing to that success and all too ofter we as fans find ourselves complaining about one person or one aspect instead of appreciating all of the efforts being put forth.

As for Ithaca in the region and national picture, I wouldn't be surprised if they make a run in the NCAA tournament.  as you noted they lost to the #2 team in the country by 13 points, (by no means a blow out), on their home court in November.  I will be excited to see how they fair in the big dance. 

Finally, I appreciate the freindly and positive debate that your provided and the statistical support to back it up.  I look forward to many more discussions.

I often read these message boards and find myself amused by the critical analysis of people who spend their lives doing things other than coaching.  Level and Sotier, how many games have you really watched in the state of NY.  To say that this is a down year in Upstate NY as well as your league, (the Empire 8), and that Utica is only in the discussion " only because of the play of Jess Berry " is absurd at best.  There are a lot of great teams in Upstate NY.  First, Coach Davis is an outstanding coach and has done a great job making Utica a title contender each year.  In terms of Berry, she is a great talent and perhaps the best player in the league, but with out the play of Devin Croll each night she may not even touch the ball.  Croll might be the most underrated player in that league.  Berry is an all-conference, all-region, and potentially all-american forward, but with out a great guard like Croll, she may not even touch the ball.

Furthermore, to say that there are only three class teams in the region is to diminish the job that so many fine coaches have done, but why should that surprise me.  You have both spent far too much time posting on this board ripping, judging, and evaluating coaches and teams. Neither one of you has ever held the clip board on a collegiate sideline, and neither one of you has any comprehension as to what it takes to build a college program.  I'm not saying that I possess that comprehension either, but I'm also not spending my time on this site ripping coaches and players.  Instead, I will continue to watch, support, and cheer for my favorite upstate team and appreciate the fact that my daughter gets to do something that thousands of other kids don't get to do:  Wear a college basketball jersey. 

I suggest you both do some reevalutaing and take the creed of this site's founder and "discuss sports in a positive manner".  I'm sure that my post will be met with ridicule and scorn, but I don't care.  Besides, what else could I expect out of a cow farmer from Cooperstown, NY and an insurance salesman from Elmira,NY!

Unfortunately, you have a great point about the quality and depth of talent in Upstate NY.  For further commentarty on the depth of talent one need only look at the rosters of the top NY teams in the Empire 8, (Ithaca and Utica).  Sporting a roster of 14 players Ithaca only had 2 players from NY State, while Utica,(also sporting a roster of 14), filled half of its roster with out of state athletes.  It seems that many of the better programs are hitting the road and traveling out of state to find the depth that used to exist in Upstate NY.  I would imagine that must thrill Admission Offices who are hopeful of having their college or university gain a stronger, more national reputation like that of the U of R, NYU, and other elite private colleges and university.  I guess the bottow line in all of this is that if you want your program to succeed and compete with the elite programs these days then you have to hit the road to build your program. 

Thanks for the feedback.  It does make sense that there are ebbs and flows within different conferences with regard to the strength of each conference's teams.  As players graduate, you'll always have drop offs here and there, especially when you're talking about graduating a player of the year, (as in your case).  The good thing is that there is so much talent and depth in the high school and AAU game that coaches have more opportunites to rebuild.  One look at George Fox, (I think they had ten freshman on the roster) will show that there is always hope to rebuild quickly.  I certainly am not looking for teams to rebuild to the level of a national champion, but it would seem that there is justifiable hope to rebuild to a high level of competitiveness.  Ayway, thanks for the welcome and thanks again for the feedback.

This is my first post here; however, I've been a reader and fan on the message boards for sometime.  This is the first time that I found myself compelled to join the discussions.  I guess I'm just curious as to what you mean when you say it was a "down year in terms of HS talent".  Was it a down year in your town, county, state, region?  I've seen a lot of great basketball this year, and I would say that, in general, the talent pool in girls basketball is better than it ever has been.  I do realize that we may be watching different games in different areas, thus my initial question.