Quote from: OBC on March 07, 2014, 11:28:14 AM
I thought that Grinnell's Patrick Maher was a strong candidate for MWC Player of the Year. To see that the 4 TIME player of the week didn't even make the first team is a shock. I am beyond surprised. What's a guy gotta do?

I totally agree.  Maher is a great player and he would be an excellent player in any system.  Frankly, I think that he is Grinnell's best player.  Patrick will be missed more than anyone wants to admit next season.

I am a fan of Grinnell College basketball, both the men and women.  I respect the college academically and I respect what the school means to the community for which it is located.  I don't always agree with everything that Coach A. and the Pioneer men's basketball team does.  But, the style of play they have established in Grinnell, IA is very unique and fascinating to watch.  Not everyone likes the style of play and that certainly is fine.  However, the uniqueness of the program always attracts crowds where ever "the show" goes around the MWC and that can't be denied.

But, I am a bit miffed at some implied criticism of the most recent outcome of the team's single game accomplishments.  The criticism is not warranted in this particular case, in my humble opinion.  I think that it is awesome that Patrick Maher broke the national single game assist record with 37 assists in one, single game.  Why would anyone consider this to be an unworthy record?  Not only was the game a competive game between GC and College of Faith with GC winning by the score of 164-144, many players in the game achieved great single game scoring performances from both teams.  The assist record is a record that only a great passer with very good ball handling skills and an unselfish leader of a team can ever achieve during a basketball game and that is who Patrick Maher happens to be.  I am very proud of Patrick's achievements.  I have watched him play a lot over the years and he has routinely demonstrated a set of basketball skills that would be successful on about any type of team playing style you can think of. 

People can say or think what ever they want about Coach A. or his GC men's basketball program.  That criticism comes naturally for the obvious reasons that have been opined on this thread.  But, anyone who implies that Patrick Maher broke an assist record that should be "disrespected" is completely off the mark.  Maher's record is legitimate and worthy.  It represents everything that we would like to see from basketball players with the word, "unselfish," coming boldly to my mind. 

Congratulations, Patrick.  Well done.

Quote from: John Gleich on January 02, 2014, 07:07:35 PM

Quote from: bballer1280 on January 02, 2014, 11:40:14 AM
The truth is that most, if not all, single game individual records occur against inferior talented opponents.  Solid opponents are never part of single game individual basketball records.  The entire argument about whether or not Grinnell College's men's basketball team should be scoffed at, ridiculed, fill in ______ the blank really has become a circular argument where no person's opinion will ultimiately be deemed to be the "correct" argument.  Move on is my response.

I disagree. The UWSP single game scoring record of 40 points was set (and then tied a few weeks later) by Josh Iserloth in 01-02 against two conference opponents, UW River Falls and UW Whitewater. The UWW game went into OT.  It was tied again this past week out in Las Vegas against Whitman by Trevor Hass, in another game that went to OT. (Interestingly, Hass scored 40 in 35 1/2 minutes despite playing the full 45... he didn't score after about the 4:40 mark in the 2nd half).

NOW we can move on.

Good point.  It does happen where single game records occur against good teams.  I won't attempt to deny that because you are absolutely correct.  As you noted, I mispoke about single game records when I said, "Solid opponents are never part of single game individiual basketball records."  However, I still hold to my opinion that "most single game individual basketball records occur against inferior opponents."

The truth is that most, if not all, single game individual records occur against inferior talented opponents.  Solid opponents are never part of single game individual basketball records.  The entire argument about whether or not Grinnell College's men's basketball team should be scoffed at, ridiculed, fill in ______ the blank really has become a circular argument where no person's opinion will ultimiately be deemed to be the "correct" argument.  Move on is my response.

Quote from: OBC on November 20, 2013, 10:32:42 AM
Coaches make decisions vis a vis records and players live with them.
I agree with some and not with others. I agree with Bo Ryan's decision last night to return starter Frank Kaminsky to the floor late in a "won game" to allow him to score a school record 43 points. I disagreed with Gino Auriemma's decision to put Nykesha Sales on the floor and conspire with the opposing coach to allow her to score in order to become UCONN's all time (at the time) scorer. I really like the Grinnell system when the traps are working and the team goes on 10-15 point runs with everyone contributing. Personally, I don't agree with a decision to have a player score a national record against a game but overmatched opponent. But hey, that's just me. It's a long season and Karma being what it is, ill will is the only thing that follows.

I believe that the post above clearly captures what many are trying to say on this thread.  Good job.

I thoroughly have read through this thread as it relates to the recent scoring totals of Jack Taylor this season.  I have given a lot of thought to how I feel about how GC has played the System during those games and only now have come to a conclusion regarding my feelings.  I have watched many, many GC games over the years.  Frankly, I think that there is no reason to criticize the System as it is played organically and I think the System is a style that reaches the limits of basketball just as the North Carolina Four Corners did during its time many years ago.  There are numerous ways to play the game with all of them representing potential options worth consideration.  But,  I do not have any reason to support Coach A's attempt to set the records when the method used to set those records, even though it resembles the System's methodology, is not really a reflection of how the team ordinarily plays by allowing one player to play substantially more minutes during a game than is typically the case and by allowing one player to take substantially a larger percentage of the team's shots than is normally the case.  The 138 point record and what obviously was another attempt to beat that record on Sunday really is not some thing anyone who supports Grinnell College academically or athletically can say reflects the college's philosophy when all variables are considered.  Record setting moments can both be proud moments and infamous moments.  I'm really not of the belief that the record setting efforts represented by Jack Taylor's scoring efforts both this season and last are proud moments for individuals that support this amazing place known as Grinnell College.

Past GC players, Clements and Lensch in particular, have been mentioned in this thread.  I believe that their scoring efforts and even Taylor's scoring outburst in this season's first game represented production that did not really vary from the normal System approach by very much.  But, the 138 point effort from last season and the 109 point effort on Sunday were attempts to score points outside of the System's normal approach with unexplainably higher levels of playing time and percentage of shots taken by Taylor.  Frankly, I don't like that approach so much nor the lack of what is considered to be acceptable demonstrations of sportsmanship.

I will, however, defend Taylor in this entire set of events because he is only "the player."  He is being coached to play his role in Coach A's "theatre in the round."  The other players on the team are in similar positions.  All are at the mercy of Coach A's desire to play the System the way he has chosen to do so in the attempted record setting games.  No player can possibly object without "catching the wrath" of their coach.  So, I can not put any blame for how those games played out for Taylor or his teammates.

With all of that said, I believe that this season's version of Grinnell College mens basketball will have more high scoring efforts from Taylor because the team does not have as many scoring options as they have had in the past.  Taylor will play larger minute totals and he will average easily over 30 points per game when the season concludes.  GC lost some outstanding seniors from last season's team and that scoring void will not be made up by the team's underclassmen quickly this year.

My opinion only.

Good luck to Monmouth College in their game tonight against the University of Chicago.  I don't expect Monmouth to defeat undefeated Chicago.  But, I do hope that Monmouth competes against them well enough for the outcome to not clearly be decided by half time with Monmouth "putting a real scare" into the host college.  And, that result is potentially a reality if Monmouth can muster its "A-game."

Also, congratulations to the post season award winners from the MWC.  Furthermore, as a GC fan, congratulations to Michelle Briggs and Meg Huey for earning 2nd team All-Conference.  Both, definitely, deserved the recognition as they were solid performers for the team all season long.

Finally, congratulations to Janelle Groer of Carroll University for earning MWC player of the year.  No one else in the conference meant more to her team and performed at as high level all season long as she did.  She was Carroll's "go to" player all season long and she produced even with opponents double teaming her and defending her with lot's of help defense.  Her ability to score, pass out of double teams to open teammates, and rebound the ball made her a very special player to watch over the last four years.

St. Norbert College has earned a regular season MWC championship by defending last season's championship.  They will host the conference tournament and likely will get the conference's NCAA tournament bid as well based on the assumption that they will win the tournament this weekend as many expect to happen.  St. Norbert will play Carroll in the conference tournament semi-finals.  Monmouth is the second place team and they have shown they are definitely "beatable" this season.  Monmouth will play Lake Forest in the conference tournament semi-finals and I expect this game to be a real "barn burner."  Good luck to all the teams.

I think that it is appropriate to give some concillatory commendation to Grinnell and Ripon who tied for 3rd in the regular season with both Lake Forest and Carroll with all four teams having MWC records of 11-7.  The tie breaker procedure was very cruel to Grinnell and Ripon who demonstrated that they were just as good in all phases of season play as the two teams whom also had 11-7 records that advanced to the MWC tournament.  Tie breaker rules are never perfect and no one would attempt to state that they are either.

As a fan of Grinnell College and the college's women's basketball team, congratulations to the Pioneers for their outstanding season despite missing out on a conference tournament berth.  It was the team's first winning season in conference play since the 2003-2004 season.  Grinnell College had as much talent as any team in the conference, with the exception being St. Norbert, and the Pioneers proved that on several occasions this season with their "sweep" of Monmouth as proof of the fact.  However, four critical conference losses by a total of nine points (home against Carroll and at Carroll, Illinois College, and Lake Forest), with a win in any of those four losses, kept the team from earning sole possession of 3rd place and a berth in the conference tournament.  The Pioneers just had a hard time finishing some of those closely contested games and that cost the team dearly this season.  The lack of team depth probably contributed to this fact as much as any thing.

Finally, congratulations to Meg Huey and Ashley Jeannin as they conclude their playing career at the college as extremely important players in the rebuilding of the GC women's basketball program.  Both girls were instrumental to the yearly improvement of the program as leaders and players with both leaving their mark on the program statistically rising to career leaders at GC in rebounds (9th by Meg) and assists (6th by Ashley) with both being outstanding defenders and solid team offensive players as well.  Those of us that enjoy watching the Pioneers play will miss their intensity, toughness, energy, and skill in the years ahead.  However, with great returning players such as Michelle Briggs, Rebecca DeGroot, and Tolu Alabi, complemented by others on the team and with indications that the incoming commitments for next year's first year class will be very talented, the future at Grinnell will continue to be bright with more program success yet to occur.  Good luck in the future to Coach Gluckman and the Pioneers of Grinnell College as they improve on this season's success with goals of a MWC championship and more in the years ahead.

Grinnell College had a devastating loss at Illinois College yesterday.  The team seems to have trouble finishing closely contested games unless a "miracle" finish is involved.  A win against Lake Forest College next Saturday, plus some other tie-breaker requirements, now are necessary for the team to earn a berth in the MWC.  Hang in there Pioneers and beat Lake Forest on Saturday.  This is now all that you control. 

Quote from: Greek Tragedy on February 12, 2012, 12:39:31 AM
The wheels have officially fallen off the Grinnell train.  3rd loss in a row with a double OT loss to Illinois College.  Ouch.  So much for that showdown with Lake Forest to end the regular season.

It is impossible to disagree.

The Pioneer women's basketball team from Grinnell College had another amazing victory against Monmouth College on Wednesday improving their conference record to 10-5 (sole possession of 3rd place).  The team continues to be well balanced with a different player "rising to the occasion" nearly every time the team earns another hard fought victory.

Different people this season have provided the Pioneers with amazing efforts.  Senior power forward, Meg Huey, and junior center, Michelle Briggs have been the players who have provided the team with the most consistent play all season long and, in my opinion, both deserve strong consideration for the all-conference team.  Sophomore wing forward, Rebecca DeGroot, has shown offensive explosiveness many times during the season.  But, the team's senior point guard, Ashley Jeannin, who is primarily known as the team's floor leader who provides solid playmaker skills and is an excellent defender, provided some dramatic play on Wednesday night against Monmouth.

This 60-57 GC win saw an unbelievable six minute scoring effort by Jeannin where she scored the final 12 points for the Pioneers and 10 unanswered points to end the game.  With about six minutes remaining in the game, Jeannin began her scoring burst with a jump shot from the free throw line resulting in a score of 51-50 in favor of Monmouth.  Monmouth scored 6 unanswered points to take a lead of 57-50.  Jeannin followed with 2 three pointers and 4 free throws in the last 3 1/2 mintues or so to help the Pioneers capture the 60-57 win that included over 4 minutes of clock where Monmouth did not score a point demonstrating the Pioneers tremendous defense they have shown time and time again this season.  It truly was a dramatic finish. 

Go, Pioneers!!!  Good luck against Illinois College on Saturday.

At approximately the half way point of the MWC women's basketball regular season heading into this weekend's MWC action, the standings are currently very interesting.  The standings are as follows:

St. Norbert                9-0
Monmouth                 6-2
Grinnell College         5-3
Lake Forest College    5-3
Ripon College            5-3
Carroll University       4-4
Illinois College          3-5
Knox College             2-7
Beloit College            1-7
Lawrence Univeristy    1-7

Obviously, St. Norbert is in a class of their own in the conference.  Yet, they are definitely capable of dropping a game or two before the season ends.  But, there is certainly a "log jam" fighting it out for the 2nd place through 6th place as conference teams begin determining whom will qualify for this season's MWC Post Season Tournament.  With five teams at 6-2 through 4-4, the second half of the season will be very compelling to watch.

As a fan of GC, the Pioneers have lost two games that I hope won't come back to "haunt" them as the season ends and those are their two losses to Carroll, each by just two points, where GC led nearly the entire game in Grinnell back in December and led late while falling at Carroll by the game's end.  The process for GC qualifying for the MWC post season tournament will require that GC wins all of the games remaining that they should win and getting some wins from those that they find themselves battling for in the standings.  They must overcome late game "funks" and close those hotly contested games out better than they have against Carroll.

Further commenting about GC, it appears as though DeGroot, Briggs, and Huey are playing some really outstanding basketball for the team with Jeannin continuing to provide excellent floor leadership.  Continued good play by those four and consistency from others is necessary for the team to make its first MWC tournament berth in years.

Quote from: Just Bill on January 19, 2012, 09:50:22 AM
What's with the interim coaching thing at Grinnell?

Coach Arseneualt, Sr. is on a planned, official sabbatical at Grinnell College as I understand it.  However, he has been at every game so far to my knowledge.  In addition, as I understand, the sabbatical is related to some research that Arseneualt, Sr. is doing related to those colleges and high school that are utilizing "The System."  By being on sabbatical, Arseneualt, Sr. is not always at practices and Arseneualt, Jr. is handling practices, scouting, game plan preparation, and game coaching during the second semester of the current season.  Both Areseneualt will return to their official capacities with the team next season.

Those are all good points, PointSpecial.  Your rebuttal was spot on.  Frankly, I agree with your points as well and, in the big picture, I can not argue your points at all.  I, however, was simply pointing out that Lentsch is very good and expect that he will continue to play minutes that normally exceed the Systems typical game plan this season. 

With respect to the fact that you called the actions of the game "classless."  Any reasonable person would agree with you most of the time.  Lentsch should have grabbed a seat for the remainder of the game aroung 6-8 minutes remaining in the game and he would have played about 30 minutes as you have suggested.  That is how I would have coached the game.  However, that is not how it all went down.  Its not the players, including Lentsch's, fault that it happened as it did and I refuse to condemn any of them for the outcome.  Yet, as stated before Lentsch can play.  It takes an amazing athlete to "chuck" as many shots as he took and making as many as he did regardless of opponent.  I do think we will see some point explosions from him again in the future.  I do expect him to play a lot more minutes than anyone else at GC this season as well.

Finally, the stats.  I know others in the history of basketball have had better shooting nights than Lentsch.  I get that.  You are correct.  I played with a guy that went 12 of 13 from the field and 2-2 from the freethrow line scoring 26 points (prior to the 3-point line) in a college game many, many years ago as well and that was about as good of a game played by an individual that I have witnessed.  He played within the system of his team's strategies with great efficiency.  I understand what you are saying.  But, the "macro" analysis of shooting statistics are that a player has shot the ball very well when his total points exceed his total shot attempts (field goals and free throws combined).  That is all I am saying.  Lentsch shot very well on Saturday.  He scored a lot of points, too.  And, he should have. 

You can say what you want about whether or not Griffin Lentsch should have been allowed to play 36 minutes in a college game or not for the purpose of setting a national NCAA D3 scoring record and that certainly is anyone's right to do.  To some, it may appear to be a bad thing.  But, for me, I am certain of two things. 

First, many other NCAA student/athletes besides Lentsch will play 36 minutes or more in games this winter and, in fact, a Grinnellian for the women's team already has (Ashley Jeannin, 38 minutes) to name just one.  This is a coach's decision and the coach made a decision to play Lentsch for 36 minutes.  It is as simple as that.  It doesn't matter what Coach A's motive was.  He is the coach and he has final say.  In fact, all coach's have the final say and all players do as instructed.  That is how it always has been and that is how it always will be in athletics.  In addition, from what I have seen of Lentsch as a player, I would be very tempted to play Lentsch 30+ minutes per game all of the time if I were given the chance as a coach.  The kid can play, he is an awesome player, and he sacrifices a lot to play just 20 minutes in a typical Grinnell College men's basketball game.  He would easily average 30 minutes or more of playing time at most other D3 colleges.

Secondly, Lentsch scored 89 points on 77 total shot attempts (field goal attempts plus free throw attempts).  That is a good shooting night in the "macro" sense of scoring the basketball.  I would take that ratio of 89 points on 77 shot attempts every day of the season.  I am pretty sure that most coaches and fans would, too.  In fact, what he accomplished used to happen a lot in the "old days" with such great players as Travis Grant from Kentucky State and Pete Maravich from LSU to name just two players that shot the ball more than their teammates combined.  The idea is to score the ball regardless of what system or offense you use and you run your offense through someone regardless.  Running the ball through Lentsch is how Grinnell will score the ball the most successfully this winter even when they likely return to the typical Grinnell College "System."  Look for Lentsch to potentially lead the nation in scoring this winter playing 22-23 minutes per game.  Of course, as I have already said, I would play him 30+ minutes a game if I had the final say.

I understand that many will disagree with me.  But, I don't really care and I would have loved to have experienced playing in a game where a teammate of mine put 89 points on the scoreboard.  That would have been very memorable.

Attached is a link to the pre-season report for the men's basketball team at Grinnell College.  Optimism is very high for the Pioneers this season.

http://www.grinnell.edu/athletics/mbasketball/mbk12preview