Quote from: KnightSlappy on October 18, 2011, 03:22:17 PM

Quote from: Bob MacKenzie on October 18, 2011, 02:56:49 PM

Quote from: Flying Dutch Fan on October 18, 2011, 09:29:04 AM

Quote from: Dark Knight on October 18, 2011, 08:53:14 AM

Quote from: Flying Dutch Fan on October 18, 2011, 08:22:50 AM

Quote from: KnightSlappy on October 17, 2011, 09:48:13 PM

Quote from: DewCrewVett on October 17, 2011, 06:00:04 PM
I think you really have no room to gloat on a 33-9 conference record and two MIAA championships that got them absolutely no where.

How's that first tournament weekend been treating yo

I thought this a strange question, but then I remembered your season was over so you probably stopped following the game.  6-3 during our current 6 year NCAA streak.  We've had a couple tough years sure, but we were playing weren't we.  How were your last couple visits to the tournament?           

Calvin reply (beating you to it) - "We've got 2 banners"     

Hope reply (beating you to it) -- "We've got even more -- final four, largest attendance, national championship (fake), mascot most likely to give nightmares to young children..." 

The bold one is definitely yours

I can't argue with FDF on that.  Happened to see "Cal the Knight" just a few days ago when my high schooler visited Calvin's campus.  (Seriously, if Calvin is looking for solutions to its enrollment dip, start by keeping the mascot away from prospective students!) Not sure if it could scare small children--doesn't have any masculine, athletic, intimidating or any other attributes one would expect from a mascot.  But for its helmet, it hardly even qualifies as a "knight".

Are you referring to Cal: http://www.calvin.edu/publications/spark/2003/summer/anonymous.htm

or Joust: http://www.calvin.edu/gallery/sfc-dedication/IMG_8419 ?

Joust.  Regardless of name, my opinion is the same.

Quote from: Flying Dutch Fan on October 18, 2011, 09:29:04 AM

Quote from: Dark Knight on October 18, 2011, 08:53:14 AM

Quote from: Flying Dutch Fan on October 18, 2011, 08:22:50 AM

Quote from: KnightSlappy on October 17, 2011, 09:48:13 PM

Quote from: DewCrewVett on October 17, 2011, 06:00:04 PM
I think you really have no room to gloat on a 33-9 conference record and two MIAA championships that got them absolutely no where.

How's that first tournament weekend been treating yo

I thought this a strange question, but then I remembered your season was over so you probably stopped following the game.  6-3 during our current 6 year NCAA streak.  We've had a couple tough years sure, but we were playing weren't we.  How were your last couple visits to the tournament?           

Calvin reply (beating you to it) - "We've got 2 banners"     

Hope reply (beating you to it) -- "We've got even more -- final four, largest attendance, national championship (fake), mascot most likely to give nightmares to young children..." 

The bold one is definitely yours

I can't argue with FDF on that.  Happened to see "Cal the Knight" just a few days ago when my high schooler visited Calvin's campus.  (Seriously, if Calvin is looking for solutions to its enrollment dip, start by keeping the mascot away from prospective students!) Not sure if it could scare small children--doesn't have any masculine, athletic, intimidating or any other attributes one would expect from a mascot.  But for its helmet, it hardly even qualifies as a "knight". 

There is nothing so insufferable as Boston/New England fans when they're winning.

Quote from: KnightSlappy on May 11, 2011, 02:07:22 PM

Quote from: Bob MacKenzie on May 11, 2011, 01:06:16 PM
Ultimately I think the question will come down to economics.  All the other issues (culture, injuries, title IX, etc.) make for interesting discussion, but the bottom line will be revenue.  And I'm not talking about ticket revenue here. (Even Calvin basketball undoubtedly loses money, btw.  I'd bet that over half of the fans at any given game are students or faculty/staff and their families and they attend for free.  Just look at the drop off in attendance when it becomes tournament time and everyone has to pay the MIAA or NCAA.)  It's about net tuition revenue.  If, by adding football, Calvin is confident it can add enough tuition paying students to more than offset the costs (several coaches' salaries, uniforms, trainers, travel, insurance, etc.) I believe it will get the green light.  But I personally think that in today's higher ed economic environment, that's going to be a tough sell--which is why I'd be surprised if it happens this time.

Quote from: oldknight on May 11, 2011, 12:17:51 AM
One of the advantages of living through more than one generation is having the opportunity to experience similar weak arguments one thought had been retired long ago. I'm old enough to remember when none of the traditional feeder schools to Calvin had football. Going by dim memory, GR South Christian was the first local Christian high school to get football followed soon after by GR Christian (actually Central Christian and East Christian). At the time some "conservatives" objected to football (that included my parents) because they feared the "change in culture" that would flow from the acquisition of football as well as the violence of the sport. The Chimes writer doesn't express concerns exactly as I remember them when I was a kid, but his aren't all that different either--and no more persuasive. It's surprising that in today's world, with pretty much every student at Knollcrest having attended a high school with football, there would be much objection to starting the sport at Calvin. Right now, if a high school student is capable of and interested in playing D3 football, Calvin is simply not an option. My son was a good enough high school football player to get more than one recruiting letter from Dean Kreps (imagine the sight of oldknight in the Hope cheering section at Holland Stadium--yikes!). If Calvin had football available I can't say he would have become a Knight but I think he would have considered it, especially if I could have lined him up with a quality professor from the computer science department. My son recently expressed what I interpreted as regret for not having pursued that avenue. The availability of football might have been enough to bring him to the East Beltline.

Just to add some numbers to the discussion: can football attract even 50 extra kids per year? If it could, Calvin would see a boost in tuition dollars in excess of $1.2 million. (based on 2010-11 tuition of $24,645)

See if you can find out what Calvin's average per student NET tuition revenue is after institutionally funded scholarships,  grants, etc.  Maybe $15,000?  (Unless you go with the conventional wisdom that football players are poor students --I'm sure it's been brought up in the committee).  If you go with an average net of $15K,  50 extra students would add $750K.  Subtract the salaries and benefits of 4 full time coaches (who probably won't teach), a handful of part timers, an additional trainer, travel costs to 5 away games, game and practice field maintenance, officials...).  The addition to the bottom line won't be much more than a blip. 

Ultimately I think the question will come down to economics.  All the other issues (culture, injuries, title IX, etc.) make for interesting discussion, but the bottom line will be revenue.  And I'm not talking about ticket revenue here. (Even Calvin basketball undoubtedly loses money, btw.  I'd bet that over half of the fans at any given game are students or faculty/staff and their families and they attend for free.  Just look at the drop off in attendance when it becomes tournament time and everyone has to pay the MIAA or NCAA.)  It's about net tuition revenue.  If, by adding football, Calvin is confident it can add enough tuition paying students to more than offset the costs (several coaches' salaries, uniforms, trainers, travel, insurance, etc.) I believe it will get the green light.  But I personally think that in today's higher ed economic environment, that's going to be a tough sell--which is why I'd be surprised if it happens this time.

Quote from: oldknight on May 11, 2011, 12:17:51 AM
One of the advantages of living through more than one generation is having the opportunity to experience similar weak arguments one thought had been retired long ago. I'm old enough to remember when none of the traditional feeder schools to Calvin had football. Going by dim memory, GR South Christian was the first local Christian high school to get football followed soon after by GR Christian (actually Central Christian and East Christian). At the time some "conservatives" objected to football (that included my parents) because they feared the "change in culture" that would flow from the acquisition of football as well as the violence of the sport. The Chimes writer doesn't express concerns exactly as I remember them when I was a kid, but his aren't all that different either--and no more persuasive. It's surprising that in today's world, with pretty much every student at Knollcrest having attended a high school with football, there would be much objection to starting the sport at Calvin. Right now, if a high school student is capable of and interested in playing D3 football, Calvin is simply not an option. My son was a good enough high school football player to get more than one recruiting letter from Dean Kreps (imagine the sight of oldknight in the Hope cheering section at Holland Stadium--yikes!). If Calvin had football available I can't say he would have become a Knight but I think he would have considered it, especially if I could have lined him up with a quality professor from the computer science department. My son recently expressed what I interpreted as regret for not having pursued that avenue. The availability of football might have been enough to bring him to the East Beltline.

The thing I find most disturbing about this article is Brian Van Ochten's hair.

Quote from: sac on January 07, 2011, 02:25:32 PM

Quote from: oldknight on January 07, 2011, 02:10:44 PM
The public silence surrounding Peter Bunn ends.

http://www.mlive.com/smallcolleges/grandrapids/index.ssf/2011/01/hope_basketball_star_peter_bun.html

I hope people understand now why people were less willing to share what they did or did not know about what was going on.

Quote from: SBell on December 16, 2010, 07:44:06 PM

Quote from: Dark Knight on December 16, 2010, 04:37:24 PM

Quote from: SBell on December 16, 2010, 04:06:51 PM

Quote from: goknights68 on December 15, 2010, 01:32:02 AM

Quote from: sac on December 13, 2010, 07:04:29 PM
Twenty years ago, Tony Gugino plays for Hope.  20 years ago David Kool plays for Calvin.

Indeed, its a different era.

And Kirk Walter plays for Calvin and Calvin wins the 2005 NC 

South Christian had a Mr. Basketball nearly 20 years prior to David Kool, and he didn't play at Hope or Calvin, either.

Did this other Mr. Basketball have relatives who played for Calvin?

No, but during the midst of starting for four years in the Big Ten, winning a league title and eventually being an NBA draft pick, West Michigan small-timers were still saying he was in over his head and should transfer to Hope.

Did Matt Steigenga really get drafted by the NBA? I know he played a bit for the Bulls.  I never thought Hope would be a good place for him (Calvin would have been nice tho  ) but I always thought he'd have better off playing for Dean Smith at UNC rather than get buried in Judd's scheme that always featured one superstar.  I think maybe it was Steve Smith who was the go-to guy when Steigenga was there.

Could someone repost a link to that blog...and if there are others?

Quote from: KnightSlappy on September 22, 2010, 02:28:48 PM

Quote from: Bob MacKenzie on September 22, 2010, 01:21:56 PM

Quote from: KnightSlappy on September 22, 2010, 12:26:46 PM

Quote from: almcguirejr on September 22, 2010, 12:20:24 PM

Quote from: KnightSlappy on September 22, 2010, 09:27:49 AM
I was perusing the Grace Bible College Athletic website, and it looks like they're growing their athletic program. Cross country (men's & women's) is now a varsity sport, and they have added men's golf and men's and women's tennis (unless I just missed them in the past).

Anyone have any idea know if it's just part of the plan, or do they have D3 aspirations? I think they now meet the NCAA's minimum sport sponsorship requirement.

I could see them leaning toward NAIA and the WHAC.  I see them following the Davenport model of using athletics and scholarships as a marketing tool to promote the school.

That was one of my initial reactions too, but the NAIA doesn't require a minimum sport sponsorship, and Grace's $400,000 endowment (in Wikipedia dollars) probably doesn't lend itself to athletic scholarships very well (although I don't think they're required to hand out scholarships).

Their men's basketball program has shown in recent years that they can compete with many (most?) MIAA schools on any given day.

I don't think a school's endowment has anything to do with whether or not they offer athletic scholarships.  In fact, I'd bet that on average NAIA schools have far lower endowments than NCAAIII schools.

Athletic scholarships are just one component of a financial aid package.  Amazingly  , most athletes can find a DIII package that is competitive with an NAIA package.  There just won't be any of it labeled as athletic scholarships.

Could be, but I'd bet that on average NAIA schools have far larger endowments than $400,000.

Tru dat.  But even at schools with larger endowments, the vast majority of scholarship and/or grant aid is just a discount off of the "sticker" price.  A very small percentage comes from endowment.  Having no endowment wouldn't discourage Grace from trying to attract students--whether they be athletes, scholars, musicians, thespians etc.--by offering scholarships for attributes they value.

Quote from: KnightSlappy on September 22, 2010, 12:26:46 PM

Quote from: almcguirejr on September 22, 2010, 12:20:24 PM

Quote from: KnightSlappy on September 22, 2010, 09:27:49 AM
I was perusing the Grace Bible College Athletic website, and it looks like they're growing their athletic program. Cross country (men's & women's) is now a varsity sport, and they have added men's golf and men's and women's tennis (unless I just missed them in the past).

Anyone have any idea know if it's just part of the plan, or do they have D3 aspirations? I think they now meet the NCAA's minimum sport sponsorship requirement.

I could see them leaning toward NAIA and the WHAC.  I see them following the Davenport model of using athletics and scholarships as a marketing tool to promote the school.

That was one of my initial reactions too, but the NAIA doesn't require a minimum sport sponsorship, and Grace's $400,000 endowment (in Wikipedia dollars) probably doesn't lend itself to athletic scholarships very well (although I don't think they're required to hand out scholarships).

Their men's basketball program has shown in recent years that they can compete with many (most?) MIAA schools on any given day.

I don't think a school's endowment has anything to do with whether or not they offer athletic scholarships.  In fact, I'd bet that on average NAIA schools have far lower endowments than NCAAIII schools.

Athletic scholarships are just one component of a financial aid package.  Amazingly  , most athletes can find a DIII package that is competitive with an NAIA package.  There just won't be any of it labeled as athletic scholarships.

Quote from: realist on July 27, 2010, 09:16:20 AM
Someone did mention that Dana was having problems, but that was months ago.  You are correct that Chris was at Calvin in the 2000 era.  In fact he came to Calvin with KVS, and coached the jv team a number of years.  He left to take the job at Dana, and from what I understand the program always struggled.  Chris played for KVS at his last job before Calvin, and I assume the two remain friends.

Fear is a far better coach than his record at Dana would indicate.  The college had been on the ropes for a long time and it's remarkable that they were able to compete as well as they did in a really strong NAIA conference.  Chris should be able to land a job and do well at a healthy institution.

Quote from: sac on May 18, 2010, 11:42:10 PM



  Guess my crack wasn't clear.

Did Sac recently get into the plumbing profession?

I know (though none would be allowed to state it in this forum--and they may not even read this forum) there were many among the Hope faithful who were eager for a change a long time ago.  Probably quite similar to the aforementioned Calvin transition where many were ready/eager to see ED go and some resented KVS because of their attachment to the the beloved former coach who brought the Knights their first national title.

I think it was time.  Kind of like Bobby Bowden at FSU.  As long as they don't hire a Rich Rodriguez, I bet Hope will be better off soon.

Another wild, speculative (but hopefully harmless) thought...
Former KVS assistant Chris Fear has been toiling at tiny NAIA Dana College for the last 10 years.  Dana was just bought out by a "for profit" organization and the future of their athletic programs is very much in doubt.  Fear hasn't seen much success at Dana, but he's probably done a lot better than most would have at an college that has been incapable of providing any significant institutional support.  He certainly knows Hope, DIII and the MIAA from his time at Calvin.

Given that he's not from the "family", I'd call it a real long shot, but I wouldn't be surprised if he threw his hat in the ring.

Quote from: NW Hope Fan on January 07, 2010, 02:29:59 PM

Quote from: KnightSlappy on January 07, 2010, 01:53:58 PM


Don't get me wrong, I strongly dislike Hope (I'd even consider the 'hate' word)

Wiz and Stinger aside, I've never really understood this, and I wish someone could explain this to me.

I grew up in the Reformed Church, spent a total of 6 years at Hope including going back for a teaching degree, was a varsity athlete, coached at Hope for 8 years, worked at Western Seminary, and will always root for Hope over Calvin, or any other team for that matter... But I've never felt a dislike, or considered a hatred for Calvin College, or any other college. There have been some posters I'd like to punch in the nose, and once I was done, would be over it... but Hate?

What is it, that an institution founded on similar principals, that now even church doctrinally is so close that differences can hardly be found, causes so much disdain? It's like hating your brother or sister... or first cousin at the very least. Were you personally done wrong by the institution? Someone please explain... And if your answer is a "cake eater" answer... don't bother.

What's so hard to understand?  It's like Michigan/Ohio State.  Duke/NC.  Packer/Vikings (or Packers/Bears for those of you old enough to remember when the Bears were consistently competitive).  Maybe hate is a little strong.  But whoever is playing my archrival automatically becomes my second favorite team on any given game day.  And the closer we are relationally (religious principal for Calvin/Hope, a QB wearing #4 for Green Bay/Minnesota, geographically for Duke/NC) the more intense the feeling is likely to become.