Quote from: BayernFan on November 22, 2011, 03:55:45 PM

Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 22, 2011, 03:21:39 PM
I have to agree with cigarstore that invoking autism as an insult is really offensive, BashDad. And I say this as someone who has heretofore been very impressed by the depth and reasoning of your posts this week.

Maybe someone who goes by a screen name of "cigar store indian" shouldnt be so easily offended.

I see where you're coming from. In context, it has nothing to do with a culture or people. Rather, it has to do with the wood or plastic Indian that one would often find at a cigar store. Any defensive player who Played under Wienke would understand it. Out of context, I agree, it looks kind of bad.

Quote from: cigarstore_indian on November 22, 2011, 03:41:48 PM

Quote from: robertgoulet on November 22, 2011, 03:32:55 PM

Quote from: smedindy on November 22, 2011, 03:25:43 PM
Illinois College is 80th in Massey. Wabash's dominating win knocked them down a few spots. That means they're a good team - in the upper 1/3 of D-3. In the same measure, Elmhurst is 86th. NC dominated Elmhurst like Wabash dominated IC.

Benedictine is 178th, hanging out with teams like Lake Forest and Marietta.

But this week is not about Dubuque, or IC, or Benedictine. It's about Wabash vs. North Central - and how this is THE game for both programs. Again, for Wabash, it's validation that they are on par with the tier right below the Purples. For NC, if they want to be the king of that tier, and feel they have what it takes to knock off a Purple this year or in the coming years, they can't lose this game.

The key is how Wabash can keep NC from controlling the game on the ground. How can Wabash's line and linebackers stop NC at the point of attack. If Wabash can keep NC from establishing the run game and also make their QB uncomfortable, they have a good chance at winning. Of course, the trick is if Wabash can do that. The LGs have some big-time playmakers on defense.

Does NC have experienced against a dual threat QB like Belton?

Dubuque's QB seemed to give NC a little trouble in the first quarter or two of last week's game. NCC's DB's and LB's covered up the WRs well, and the DL didn't get to the QB, leaving a nice running lane for DU's QB on multiple occasions. Those running lanes were gone by the end of the 2nd quarter though, as NCC's DL took over and got to their QB before he could get to his progressions.

Dual threat QBs bother me. If NCC's line isn't getting to the QB and the LBs and DBs are doing well in coverage, you have a lot of room for the QB to run.

I know I said before that Wabash's return game bothered me, but I think that's more the kickoff return than punt return...and if you're returning kickoffs that means that NCC has scored...so I guess I hope Wabash gets a lot of chances to return kickoffs?

Great analysis, RG.  If NCC can't get in and disrupt the Bash QB and put some hits on him, he'll have the room to run.  There were some flashbacks to the Franklin games from 07 and 08 when Chad Rupp would use his athletic ability to make plays both running and throwing.  Does your QB have Rupp's ability?  I haven't really followed Wabash that much.

Quote from: robertgoulet on November 22, 2011, 03:32:55 PM

Quote from: smedindy on November 22, 2011, 03:25:43 PM
Illinois College is 80th in Massey. Wabash's dominating win knocked them down a few spots. That means they're a good team - in the upper 1/3 of D-3. In the same measure, Elmhurst is 86th. NC dominated Elmhurst like Wabash dominated IC.

Benedictine is 178th, hanging out with teams like Lake Forest and Marietta.

But this week is not about Dubuque, or IC, or Benedictine. It's about Wabash vs. North Central - and how this is THE game for both programs. Again, for Wabash, it's validation that they are on par with the tier right below the Purples. For NC, if they want to be the king of that tier, and feel they have what it takes to knock off a Purple this year or in the coming years, they can't lose this game.

The key is how Wabash can keep NC from controlling the game on the ground. How can Wabash's line and linebackers stop NC at the point of attack. If Wabash can keep NC from establishing the run game and also make their QB uncomfortable, they have a good chance at winning. Of course, the trick is if Wabash can do that. The LGs have some big-time playmakers on defense.

Does NC have experienced against a dual threat QB like Belton?

Dubuque's QB seemed to give NC a little trouble in the first quarter or two of last week's game. NCC's DB's and LB's covered up the WRs well, and the DL didn't get to the QB, leaving a nice running lane for DU's QB on multiple occasions. Those running lanes were gone by the end of the 2nd quarter though, as NCC's DL took over and got to their QB before he could get to his progressions.

Dual threat QBs bother me. If NCC's line isn't getting to the QB and the LBs and DBs are doing well in coverage, you have a lot of room for the QB to run.

I know I said before that Wabash's return game bothered me, but I think that's more the kickoff return than punt return...and if you're returning kickoffs that means that NCC has scored...so I guess I hope Wabash gets a lot of chances to return kickoffs?

Great analysis, RG.  If NCC can't get in and disrupt Belton and put some hits on him, he'll have the room to run.  There were some flashbacks to the Franklin games from 07 and 08 when Chad Rupp would use his athletic ability to make plays both running and throwing.  Does Belton have Rupp's ability?  I haven't really followed Wabash that much.

Quote from: BashDad on November 22, 2011, 03:32:41 PM

Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 22, 2011, 03:21:39 PM
I have to agree with cigarstore that invoking autism as an insult is really offensive, BashDad. And I say this as someone who has heretofore been very impressed by the depth and reasoning of your posts this week.

Well, look, I meant it to be literally descriptive of the situation. It was, and is, the closest word to what I meant. 

Sorry to have offended.

It's all good.  Sorry to have gotten on my soapbox!   

Quote from: CardinalAlum on November 22, 2011, 03:28:56 PM

Quote from: cigarstore_indian on November 22, 2011, 03:16:43 PM

Quote from: BashDad on November 22, 2011, 03:07:51 PM

Quote from: cigarstore_indian on November 22, 2011, 02:49:29 PM
Illinois College is not a "fine to good" team.  Look at is this way, Illinois College would lose to Benedictine.  Benedictine gets blown out by North Park regularly.  North Park hasn't won a conference game in nearly 13 years.  North Central plays (virutally) mistake-free football.  And they are a team that is able to overcome any adversity they face.  Their depth is outstanding, and their back-ups are just as good as their first stringers.  I'm not saying that this won't be a great game.  Believe me, it will be.  I am really looking forward to coming to visit you guys!  All I'm saying is that you guys seem to be discrediting everything North Central has done over the last three years. 

The CCIW is easily in the top 3 conferences in the nation (OAC, CCIW, WIAC not in any specific order).  North Central ran the CCIW and beat a very tough Dubuqe team.  You may not want to count your chickens before they hatch.

This is exactly the kind of response that makes me want to poke out my eyeballs. Your distinction between Dubuque ("very tough"!) and Illinois College ("Worse than Benedictine!") is entirely suspect and, ugh: responding to a post decrying the hollowness of conference rah-rah with more conference rah-rah is, like, autistic. You win. Your conference is better. We've been through that. Engage, please, with the actual question.

I'll re-post:

Quote from: BashDad on November 22, 2011, 02:25:57 PM
Isn't holding a team like IC (and other "fine to good" teams) to 26 yards rushing a relative indication that we might expect Bash to hold a team like NCC to, say, 175? And isn't that statistic a constant in every tight and losing game the Cardinals have played?

Wow, BashDad.  Pretty classy post there.  Calling an argument "autistic".  It's even MORE classy considering I have been a one to one aid for a student that has autism.  So glad to see that your rhetoric and arguments are able to stoop so low as to bring in children/people that have special needs (I hope you can pick up on the sarcasm in that statement). 

However, I will admit that my argument was poorly planned out, and I tried to think of common opponents (since strength of schedule and statistics seem to not be working for you). 

I sincerely hope the rest of the Wabash Nation is not nearly as snide as you (and there seems to be no indication of that, considering everyone I've encountered from there is outstanding), nor so quick to bring down the level of a conversation.

His quote was it was "like, autistic".  I took it as meaning repetitive.  Don't turn it into more than it was meant.  Talk football.

I still find it disrespectful, regardless.  Anyway, I agree. Back to football.

Quote from: BayernFan on November 22, 2011, 03:20:52 PM
If you are going to the game, bring a tissue box, because you will be crying into your steering wheel all the way back to Naperville, bud.

I'm looking forward to the contest!

Honestly, I have no qualms with Wabash.  I have a few friends who went there, and everyone else I have encountered from there are great people.  I'm looking forward to tailgating and pre-game banter, as well!

It just irritates me when people label an argument "autistic".  "Poorly planned"  or "exactly the type of point I was referring to", those are ways to dissect someone's argument or get your point across.  You don't do it by labeling an argument with a disease.

Quote from: BashDad on November 22, 2011, 03:07:51 PM

Quote from: cigarstore_indian on November 22, 2011, 02:49:29 PM
Illinois College is not a "fine to good" team.  Look at is this way, Illinois College would lose to Benedictine.  Benedictine gets blown out by North Park regularly.  North Park hasn't won a conference game in nearly 13 years.  North Central plays (virutally) mistake-free football.  And they are a team that is able to overcome any adversity they face.  Their depth is outstanding, and their back-ups are just as good as their first stringers.  I'm not saying that this won't be a great game.  Believe me, it will be.  I am really looking forward to coming to visit you guys!  All I'm saying is that you guys seem to be discrediting everything North Central has done over the last three years. 

The CCIW is easily in the top 3 conferences in the nation (OAC, CCIW, WIAC not in any specific order).  North Central ran the CCIW and beat a very tough Dubuqe team.  You may not want to count your chickens before they hatch.

This is exactly the kind of response that makes me want to poke out my eyeballs. Your distinction between Dubuque ("very tough"!) and Illinois College ("Worse than Benedictine!") is entirely suspect and, ugh: responding to a post decrying the hollowness of conference rah-rah with more conference rah-rah is, like, autistic. You win. Your conference is better. We've been through that. Engage, please, with the actual question.

I'll re-post:

Quote from: BashDad on November 22, 2011, 02:25:57 PM
Isn't holding a team like IC (and other "fine to good" teams) to 26 yards rushing a relative indication that we might expect Bash to hold a team like NCC to, say, 175? And isn't that statistic a constant in every tight and losing game the Cardinals have played?

Wow, BashDad.  Pretty classy post there.  Calling an argument "autistic".  It's even MORE classy considering I have been a one to one aid for a student that has autism.  So glad to see that your rhetoric and arguments are able to stoop so low as to bring in children/people that have special needs (I hope you can pick up on the sarcasm in that statement). 

However, I will admit that my argument was poorly planned out, and I tried to think of common opponents (since strength of schedule and statistics seem to not be working for you). 

I sincerely hope the rest of the Wabash Nation is not nearly as snide as you (and there seems to be no indication of that, considering everyone I've encountered from there is outstanding), nor so quick to bring down the level of a conversation.

Quote from: Pat Coleman on November 22, 2011, 03:01:15 PM

Quote from: cigarstore_indian on November 22, 2011, 02:49:29 PM
Illinois College is not a "fine to good" team.  Look at is this way, Illinois College would lose to Benedictine. 

I don't believe this to be true.

Maybe I'm thinking of the IC from when I played (mid 2000s)?  I won't argue with you, Pat!  You're the guru!

Quote from: MasterJedi on November 22, 2011, 02:11:13 PM

Quote from: USee on November 22, 2011, 02:10:03 PM
So we got that going for us, which is nice.

So I says to him... Hey, Lama!  How bout a little somethin', ya know, for the effort?

Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 22, 2011, 02:58:39 PM

Quote from: cigarstore_indian on November 22, 2011, 02:49:29 PMIllinois College is not a "fine to good" team.  Look at is this way, Illinois College would lose to Benedictine.  Benedictine gets blown out by North Park regularly.  North Park hasn't won a conference game in nearly 13 years.

NPU's conference losing streak is just short of eleven full seasons (82 games), not thirteen. Hey, it's still embarrassing, but let's not make it worse.

Hahaha, sorry Greg!  The years fly by and I lose track.

Quote from: BashDad on November 22, 2011, 02:54:40 PM

Quote from: cigarstore_indian on November 22, 2011, 02:52:31 PM

Quote from: BashDad on November 22, 2011, 02:25:57 PM

Quote from: USee on November 22, 2011, 02:04:23 PM
But I also believe the massive discrepancies in a few statistical categories are not something that will go away just because you believe it to be so. I think Wabash could play mistake free and still lose this game. I also think if NCC goes in and makes some of the mistakes they have made they can lose this game.

The arguments favoring NCC would be way more compelling if they were about actual football match-ups and detailed considerations of why, exactly, Bash is out-manned. You and several others have been doing that. That's the fun part. Strength of schedule and conference boasting? Not fun. Boring.

What constitute an "actual football match-up"?  I'm pretty sure USee put together a very nice analysis of Wabash's stats for the year compared to NCC's and even put in bold numbers where NCC has the upper hand and where Wabash has the upper hand.  BashDad, your arguments confuse me.  If you'd like me to, I'd be happy to find USee's post and put it back up here for you.

Touche!  My bad.  I misread the post!   

Quote from: BashDad on November 22, 2011, 02:25:57 PM

Quote from: USee on November 22, 2011, 02:04:23 PM
But I also believe the massive discrepancies in a few statistical categories are not something that will go away just because you believe it to be so. I think Wabash could play mistake free and still lose this game. I also think if NCC goes in and makes some of the mistakes they have made they can lose this game.

The arguments favoring NCC would be way more compelling if they were about actual football match-ups and detailed considerations of why, exactly, Bash is out-manned. You and several others have been doing that. That's the fun part. Strength of schedule and conference boasting? Not fun. Boring.

What constitute an "actual football match-up"?  I'm pretty sure Mugsy put together a very nice game capsule, analyzing Wabash's stats for the year compared to NCC's and even put in bold numbers where NCC has the upper hand and where Wabash has the upper hand.  BashDad, your arguments confuse me.  If you'd like me to, I'd be happy to find Mugsy's post and put it back up here for you.

Quote from: BashDad on November 22, 2011, 02:25:57 PM

Quote from: USee on November 22, 2011, 02:04:23 PM
But I also believe the massive discrepancies in a few statistical categories are not something that will go away just because you believe it to be so. I think Wabash could play mistake free and still lose this game. I also think if NCC goes in and makes some of the mistakes they have made they can lose this game.

Me too! All of this. Me too. Agreed. Yes.

I've been pretty deliberate in what I've chosen to defend with this Bash team. I've never just shrugged and said "Whatever, we're gonna win." The easiest argument to make in this kind of game involves strength of schedule. Every meaningful--and tight!--game that an NCAC team has played against an upper conference team as invited the same analysis. It's boring. The arguments favoring NCC would be way more compelling if they were about actual football match-ups and detailed considerations of why, exactly, Bash is out-manned. You and several others have been doing that. That's the fun part. Strength of schedule and conference boasting? Not fun. Boring.

No-one responded to this idea yesterday, but the point stands: Isn't holding a team like IC (and other "fine to good" teams) to 26 yards rushing a relative indication that we might expect Bash to hold a team like NCC to, say, 175? And isn't that statistic a constant in every tight and losing game the Cardinals have played?

Also, Bash fans: shouldn't we throw Chamblee in Wildcat some this week? Why not win or lose on Offense with your best player touching the ball all the time?

Eh?

Illinois College is not a "fine to good" team.  Look at is this way, Illinois College would lose to Benedictine.  Benedictine gets blown out by North Park regularly.  North Park hasn't won a conference game in nearly 13 years.  North Central plays (virutally) mistake-free football.  And they are a team that is able to overcome any adversity they face.  Their depth is outstanding, and their back-ups are just as good as their first stringers.  I'm not saying that this won't be a great game.  Believe me, it will be.  I am really looking forward to coming to visit you guys!  All I'm saying is that you guys seem to be discrediting everything North Central has done over the last three years. 

The CCIW is easily in the top 3 conferences in the nation (OAC, CCIW, WIAC not in any specific order).  North Central ran the CCIW and beat a very tough Dubuqe team.  You may not want to count your chickens before they hatch.

By the way, It's good to be back on the boards.  I had to take a mini-hiatus (about 4 months) due to a busy schedule... and not knowing if it would show up on the work computers...  Anyway, glad to be posting again!

Quote from: bashbrother on November 21, 2011, 05:53:00 PM
So a couple of months ago I was consulting for a client and looking at a possible sponsorship opportunity with the NHL's Florida Panthers down here in S. Florida.   The representative I dealt with in the Panther's Business Office was Brandon Lott, former NCC player and alum.

Going to try and get him to come up and watch the game with some Bash folk at a sports bar near my house that lets me hook my laptop up to a 60" big screen.....  Anyone on here know Brandon?

Lott graduated '09.