And let's compare baileys offense to this offense. 2010: east region offensive poy at qb, all conference Rb, arguable the best wr core in America (4 guys better than the best one they have this year) two senior tight ends, four senior linemen with the fifth being an all American (making two all american tackles) now this year: the all conference running back at qb, arguably the best Rb in the league right now, no receiver worth the time to mention, a four yr college ball player who hasn't played football simce high school.... exactly

Quote from: Upstate on November 04, 2012, 08:56:12 PM
Do you honestly think Kramer led them to the playoffs?

They got lucky and became the second two loss team to get in since 99 due to lucky breaks across the board. Fisher went 8-2 in 2011. Guess what fisher went in 2010? 8-2. They ROLLED people week in and week out for 8 weeks in 2010. In their two losses they scored 49 and 31 points. Their two losses their defense didn't show up like they have for the past two years.

In fact Kramer had squat to do with their two NCAA wins so you can't even say he led them on a run there.

You're obviously attached to him, family perhaps, to get this butt hurt because people say he's not a good QB. This Fisher offense is the worst offense in a decade with Kramer at QB, not a coincidence. Kramer and this offense has put the team in bad position time and time again. Yet you can't see that. Teams actually laugh at the idea of Kramer beating them deep and if you are that one dimensional you're toast.

Not family just a fan of a kid that I think deserves more credit than you give him. The way you talk makes it sounds like you're a defensive guy so you must be family to fox. Name who on offense did more for fisher last yr then Kramer (with the exception of balzcersak) nobody... and don't give me the bull**** its because he couldn't get anyone the ball because that really is ridiculous. Coaches find ways to give their beat players the ball. It just so happens vos let's kramer touch it every play. My favorite player on the team is sant. Local boy who went from nobody to superstar but as I said I'm a fan of Kramer and fisher. You just find ways to kill this offense and this kid
You go help coach the team ... vos would let you if you were a former player unless you are a nobody who never played or strongly dislike the guy.

Quote from: boobyhasgameyo on November 04, 2012, 04:54:52 PM
Didn't FF99 say he was done posting?  I wish that were still true.  I'm with Upstate - that guy is completely biased to the point of delusion with Kramer.  I love how he keeps saying Kramer is throwing the ball even better this year.  ARE YOU SERIOUS?  Are we watching the same games?  The wobbling, hanging, majority of the time over/under thrown passes that he specializes in?  Those ones?  I can't even count how many times he blew opportunities to get the ball to open WR's because of his ineffectiveness.  Also why do you keep bringing up Bailey?  Sorry Bailey couldn't play defense as well.  If Tim Bailey were the QB on this team with the current defense backing him up...forget about it.  Fisher would be scary good.  If you want to argue otherwise then you'd be proving how stubborn you are.  Kramer's intangibles that you speak so highly of has led our offense nowhere all year long. 

Oh and FA91 please don't say how you just know Fenti or any of the others are so much worse after only seeing them play for the maximum of one to two games.  You don't have two year samples of how they would perform leading the offense, you just don't.  With Fenti you had one full game against the best team in the E8 and he did very well until the last few minutes.  With Ahmed you saw him be the one to fill in and do a serviceable job in the playoffs last year...leading Fisher to wins (maybe he has those same intangibles FF99?) until Kramer got back and was completely shut down by St. Thomas.

One I got back because I felt Kramer was getting attacked for no good reasons . We have already said we see the games in a different perspective . One that I think fisheralum sees much more similar to me. Two Kramer didn't play more than a series or two in Minnesota in which both were series fisher was driving . He was taken out because be was playing with a torn muscle in his leg. Three I keep saying bailey because you and upstate think he's god when he never got fisher in the playoffs. When it comes down to it and you look at Kramer was the starting qb for a playoff team and bailey wasn't. Vos coaches and pledges team chemistry..last year they had it this year they don't. All I'm saying is you say Kramer can't throw the ball when honestly the only game he was throwing it was Alfred . Pete and gene said TEN drop balls and three were on the end zone. Kramer shouldn't be playing qb but its not all his fault. He has no offensive players around him but 13 and 18. You don't need a pass game that puts up big numbers to win (proven last year ) you and upstate are just in love with passing yards and TDs when honestly all I enjoy talking about is wins . Heck fisher is not doing what we hoped they would but they are still 6-3 and think they will end up 7-3. Ive said it before and will again and i know fa91 agrees with me Vos knows his players and his team better than we do... if Kramer wasn't the answer he wouldn't have played every game except one hurt at no more than 75% of full health. Its not his brothers decision its the head coaches to say who ultimately plays and competes as the starting qb

27 attempts and only 115 yards.

Pathetic.

He can not throw downfield. At all.

There is a difference between running some bubble screens like Bailey would and then relying on them entirely like Kramer does.

He's throw for 1100 yards so far this year. IN EIGHT GAMES!!!!!!

If he plays QB on any other team he is getting pulled.
[/quote]

All the bubbles are off run reads... if he were to throw down field who does he throw it to? There is NO ONE  to throw it to. The receivers this year have more drops then catches. Only reliable threat is 18 Shuey. He even fumbled today. As I said cant  throw to receivers who can't catch. Talk about bad... they are bad. But I won't criticize them because with an exception of Stell ( who is a number 3 receiver at best who is number 1 because of injuries ) who thought they'd see this much time. Its sad when your average qb is the best qb, rb, and wr on the team. Him and miller I think would be a deadly combination and let Kramer spread the field but as we see vos must not have anyone in the bank to make that happen. Therefore they try to run run run because the receivers block better than catch ... barely
[/quote]

If Kramer was half the QB you think he is he would be putting it right on the WRs on every attempt, however that's not the case as the ball is hardly thrown near the WRs for them to catch it...

He can not hit the broad side of a barn, how you think Kramer would be deadly if they spread the field (which they already do) just proves how delusional you are about him...
[/quote]

That's not what I said. I said him and miller would be a great combo and it would be DEADLY if he was able not to play qb and play receiver/ Rb to spread the field. Go back to Mr. Rogers second grade reading class
[/quote]

I will go back to school as soon as you get off his nuts...

The guy can't play QB yet all year you've been saying how he's soooo good...

Past two years say otherwise...
[/quote]

I'm not on his nuts.. I have coach vos's back. The best option is Kramer he has changed the offense to better fit him. The offense scored tons of points last year but weren't respected. The kid can't win... he plays qb when he is a Rb/we because that's what his team needs. Fisher made playoffs with him at qb no.matter what way you look at it.. bailey never did. To attack the kid who is forced not chooses to play the qb position (not like he came in as a qb) I respec what he has done and they way he plays the game. I will defend Ryan Kramer on this debate always because he plays team ball and he goes out there with no complaints and plays the hardest position in college football. He played well last year and has noticeably thrown the ball better this year.  He should be at another position but realistically fisher has no one better to put at qb. Sorry that frustrates all of us but its not his coach vos's or his brothers fault ... its just what it is

Quote from: Upstate on November 03, 2012, 07:36:08 PM

Quote from: dlip on November 03, 2012, 07:24:11 PM
Here is what dlip thinks it is fellas. A coach has to create an environment (O and D)) that best fits the type of players he has. He must find a way to get the very best out of each player, identify their strengths and use those strengths to best help the team win. Dlip has a TON of respect for Coach Vos, a ton. If we see Kramer's weakness don't you think Coach Vos does? Obviously, hence the offensive they run, a running O out of the gun. He knows Kramer is the best athlete on that team, he is no doubt in dlip's mind. Kid is ****in nasty, trust dlip he has been around d3 FB for awhile. The key in all this is that Coach Vos knows that even with Kramers struggles at the position he is clearly, in his eyes, the best option for it on the tean.. He knows this believe dlip. What the **** is he supposed to do? Homestly to dlip this offense is more of a knock on the back UPS than Kramer. Dlip bets Kramer would rather be catching passes and running the FB instead of being behind center. Vos is doing the best he can with what he's got. **** if you guys would rather just see someone go out and throw INT's just for the sake of going long the kicker could do that.

If this were true don't you think the team would adopt a true option mentality, because let's face it at best that's all Kramer really is (option QB)...

Start having his older brother call plays to get 10 yards on 4 plays instead of 3 plays and stop having the punter go out there and shank 25 yard punts...

Since NONE of that has happened I find it real hard to buy into what you are saying. They're continuing to run a spread offense with an option QB that can't throw the ball accurately...

That's what they are doing? They are running a spread OPTION offense ... everything is based off zone reads where qb can hand off, pull and run or pull and throw the bubble. The bubble is PART of the running game. I think the only spread offense you know is the passing one.. it ever occur to you there are different variations of the spread including the SPREAD OPTION... there is a difference between what Texas tech ran with leach (when bailey was qb) and what Clemson runs (with Kramer at qb) both spread games but different styles

Quote from: Upstate on November 03, 2012, 07:29:45 PM

Quote from: fisherfanatic99 on November 03, 2012, 07:17:51 PM

Quote from: Upstate on November 03, 2012, 06:46:23 PM

Quote from: fisherfanatic99 on November 03, 2012, 05:43:11 PM

Quote from: pg04 on November 03, 2012, 05:33:41 PM

Quote from: fisheralum91 on November 03, 2012, 05:27:37 PM
pg- i agree that its not a trophy for everyone deal, but the kid has talent.
he is a gamer.
he is also dinged up.
unlike tebow- he has the ability to lead his team, and proved that last year.

OK. I respect yours and Fanatic's opinions on this since you pay close attention, I just have my doubts and think some may be getting a tad bit defensive of the guy. However, I don't know enough about the staff to cast doubt on their doing something just because so and so. It's obvious that they have confidence enough to let him start the games, although sometimes it seems they don't have the confidence to actually have him throw it.

Kid threw 27 times... how many times you expect him to throw. Yes a fourth of them of them were bubbles but their offense is based off the run . It even was when bailey played qb. They started two kids that weigh no.more than 250 pounds at tackle one being a freshman. Again the coaches must not have confidence in any other qb but you can't blame the kid for that. He does what he is supposed to play hard and do the best he can (not high school stuff just reality) Fisher isn't as good as people think they are. Lots of holes mostly on the offense but when the whole receiving core is hurt and your best playmaker is banged up all year you're going to have some trouble. They don't have a field goal kicker so three points for any other team is a fourth down play for Fisher .

27 attempts and only 115 yards.

Pathetic.

He can not throw downfield. At all.

There is a difference between running some bubble screens like Bailey would and then relying on them entirely like Kramer does.

He's throw for 1100 yards so far this year. IN EIGHT GAMES!!!!!!

If he plays QB on any other team he is getting pulled.

All the bubbles are off run reads... if he were to throw down field who does he throw it to? There is NO ONE  to throw it to. The receivers this year have more drops then catches. Only reliable threat is 18 Shuey. He even fumbled today. As I said cant  throw to receivers who can't catch. Talk about bad... they are bad. But I won't criticize them because with an exception of Stell ( who is a number 3 receiver at best who is number 1 because of injuries ) who thought they'd see this much time. Its sad when your average qb is the best qb, rb, and wr on the team. Him and miller I think would be a deadly combination and let Kramer spread the field but as we see vos must not have anyone in the bank to make that happen. Therefore they try to run run run because the receivers block better than catch ... barely

If Kramer was half the QB you think he is he would be putting it right on the WRs on every attempt, however that's not the case as the ball is hardly thrown near the WRs for them to catch it...

He can not hit the broad side of a barn, how you think Kramer would be deadly if they spread the field (which they already do) just proves how delusional you are about him...

That's not what I said. I said him and miller would be a great combo and it would be DEADLY if he was able not to play qb and play receiver/ Rb to spread the field. Go back to Mr. Rogers second grade reading class

Quote from: dlip on November 03, 2012, 07:24:11 PM
Here is what dlip thinks it is fellas. A coach has to create an environment (O and D)) that best fits the type of players he has. He must find a way to get the very best out of each player, identify their strengths and use those strengths to best help the team win. Dlip has a TON of respect for Coach Vos, a ton. If we see Kramer's weakness don't you think Coach Vos does? Obviously, hence the offensive they run, a running O out of the gun. He knows Kramer is the best athlete on that team, he is no doubt in dlip's mind. Kid is ****in nasty, trust dlip he has been around d3 FB for awhile. The key in all this is that Coach Vos knows that even with Kramers struggles at the position he is clearly, in his eyes, the best option for it on the tean.. He knows this believe dlip. What the **** is he supposed to do? Homestly to dlip this offense is more of a knock on the back UPS than Kramer. Dlip bets Kramer would rather be catching passes and running the FB instead of being behind center. Vos is doing the best he can with what he's got. **** if you guys would rather just see someone go out and throw INT's just for the sake of going long the kicker could do that.

Perfectly said dlip

Quote from: Upstate on November 03, 2012, 06:46:23 PM

Quote from: fisherfanatic99 on November 03, 2012, 05:43:11 PM

Quote from: pg04 on November 03, 2012, 05:33:41 PM

Quote from: fisheralum91 on November 03, 2012, 05:27:37 PM
pg- i agree that its not a trophy for everyone deal, but the kid has talent.
he is a gamer.
he is also dinged up.
unlike tebow- he has the ability to lead his team, and proved that last year.

OK. I respect yours and Fanatic's opinions on this since you pay close attention, I just have my doubts and think some may be getting a tad bit defensive of the guy. However, I don't know enough about the staff to cast doubt on their doing something just because so and so. It's obvious that they have confidence enough to let him start the games, although sometimes it seems they don't have the confidence to actually have him throw it.

Kid threw 27 times... how many times you expect him to throw. Yes a fourth of them of them were bubbles but their offense is based off the run . It even was when bailey played qb. They started two kids that weigh no.more than 250 pounds at tackle one being a freshman. Again the coaches must not have confidence in any other qb but you can't blame the kid for that. He does what he is supposed to play hard and do the best he can (not high school stuff just reality) Fisher isn't as good as people think they are. Lots of holes mostly on the offense but when the whole receiving core is hurt and your best playmaker is banged up all year you're going to have some trouble. They don't have a field goal kicker so three points for any other team is a fourth down play for Fisher .

27 attempts and only 115 yards.

Pathetic.

He can not throw downfield. At all.

There is a difference between running some bubble screens like Bailey would and then relying on them entirely like Kramer does.

He's throw for 1100 yards so far this year. IN EIGHT GAMES!!!!!!

If he plays QB on any other team he is getting pulled.

All the bubbles are off run reads... if he were to throw down field who does he throw it to? There is NO ONE  to throw it to. The receivers this year have more drops then catches. Only reliable threat is 18 Shuey. He even fumbled today. As I said cant  throw to receivers who can't catch. Talk about bad... they are bad. But I won't criticize them because with an exception of Stell ( who is a number 3 receiver at best who is number 1 because of injuries ) who thought they'd see this much time. Its sad when your average qb is the best qb, rb, and wr on the team. Him and miller I think would be a deadly combination and let Kramer spread the field but as we see vos must not have anyone in the bank to make that happen. Therefore they try to run run run because the receivers block better than catch ... barely

Quote from: pg04 on November 03, 2012, 05:33:41 PM

Quote from: fisheralum91 on November 03, 2012, 05:27:37 PM
pg- i agree that its not a trophy for everyone deal, but the kid has talent.
he is a gamer.
he is also dinged up.
unlike tebow- he has the ability to lead his team, and proved that last year.

OK. I respect yours and Fanatic's opinions on this since you pay close attention, I just have my doubts and think some may be getting a tad bit defensive of the guy. However, I don't know enough about the staff to cast doubt on their doing something just because so and so. It's obvious that they have confidence enough to let him start the games, although sometimes it seems they don't have the confidence to actually have him throw it.

Kid threw 27 times... how many times you expect him to throw. Yes a fourth of them of them were bubbles but their offense is based off the run . It even was when bailey played qb. They started two kids that weigh no.more than 250 pounds at tackle one being a freshman. Again the coaches must not have confidence in any other qb but you can't blame the kid for that. He does what he is supposed to play hard and do the best he can (not high school stuff just reality) Fisher isn't as good as people think they are. Lots of holes mostly on the offense but when the whole receiving core is hurt and your best playmaker is banged up all year you're going to have some trouble. They don't have a field goal kicker so three points for any other team is a fourth down play for Fisher .

Quote from: Upstate on November 03, 2012, 03:58:49 PM
The entire offense is a cluster**** and it all starts with the QB. He can only throw bubble screens. He can't throw an accurate pass down field and BSC knew it so they stacked the box and dared Kramer to beat them.  He couldn't.

The offense was a god awful 3 of 14 on 3rd downs, Kramer was 3/11 passing on 3rd downs alone.

The whole "he tries hard" angle is just a bunch of high school crap. You don't get points for effort, you get points for results and Kramer's offense is the worst offense since 2001.

If Kramer's older brother wasn't the OC he would have been pulled by now.

That's where I draw the line... you don't know the kramers obviously and you are questioning vos's integrity. That's terrible plain and simple

Quote from: pg04 on November 03, 2012, 03:14:45 PM
Also, I feel bad signaling him out because this really shouldn't be for bashing one guy, but I just think they will be better off in a different direction based on what I have watched.

I did say that he shouldn't be there if there is a viable backup. We don't see the practices or everyday thing but I am guessing there is something that vos doesn't like in any of the other guys. From what my son says Kramer cares less where he plays he is just the kind of guy who goes out there to win. I'm sure he has no say because wasn't he an all conference running back His first year and at Colgate. I figure he'd be comfortable there . But let me say if your coach told you that the team needs you at qb  I'm pretty sure you'd do it
I just struggle to blame the kid because its evident he competes and leave it all on the field. And I really do think he is better than you guys say but the qb will always be the one to blame if an offense is struggling

Quote from: pg04 on November 03, 2012, 02:48:27 PM

Quote from: Upstate on November 03, 2012, 02:45:31 PM
Can we get over the Kramer QB experiment now?

I know this is a divisive issue but as an outsider I really think they need to go in another direction. It may not be possible this year because the others have seemed almost as incapable. Hopefully next year they will have a better option.

First do I think Kramer should be qb next year... no if they have a viable guy who can at least manage an offense.  Looking at today's game you can't blame Kramer just because he is the qb. This Fisher offense just doesn't have the players. The line is atrocious... Kramer was pressured all day and until the run game wasn't doing well either.  The biggest thing to look at is that the wide receivers for fisher are terrible . 4 and 5 Chairmonte drops a ball in his gut.. Francis kid drops a pass right in his hands in the end zone with two.minutes left . Kramer is not as bad as you make him out to be . He just doesn't have Ryan Francis and Schmidt this year that can make plays. Only he Miller and the tight end can make any plays. I disagree if you tell me Kramer shouldn't be the qb because he's bad. I will agree if you say he shouldn't be qb because fisher needs a playmaker on the outside and no one can cut It so he has to go out of there . As I said kramer shouldn't be there but its not like he is the reason for this offenses continuous poor performance. He showed he could hit guys hands today . He can't throw catch and run the ball. Put some blame on some other people because it isn't just him

Quote from: boobyhasgameyo on October 25, 2012, 03:59:43 PM
It's an ECAC kind of year for Fisher.  At this point I'd like for them to continue trying to cultivate other QB's, finish strong so they will remain relevant heading into next year, do some damage then.

Just thought I'd let you all know Kramer is back again next year. He received a red shirt from Colgate his first year so he is eligible for one more year . You were all acting like he was done so I figured I'd come back and give you this USEFUL information . Go Fisher !

Quote from: boobyhasgameyo on October 07, 2012, 05:18:10 PM
Well I'd think that was obvious.  With this more talented defense that we've had the past few years if we had an offense that could generate more points along with it, that would lead to us you know...winning more games.  You are the only Fisher supporter that I know who would say this current offense is just what we need.  It's seriously the worst one.  I don't know why you argue it.  This offense screams 3rd round exit in playoffs as an absolute ceiling.

I'm saying I support coach Vosburgh coaching this team and not thinking I know it all.  As I've said before its more than just quarterback talent to find the right qb. For example, just because bailey was the most talented qb in school history doesn't mean he'd be the qb to win you the big game when you need it. I don't get how you bash the kid or the coaches who have gotten a team to the playoffs. Kramer is a winner ,Fenti yesterday showed me he didn't have it in him yet (maybe he will with time but not a good first impression). Kramers first game was ugly but he did lead Fisher to a game winning drive to beat buff st. You have your opinions I have mine , I just think you rather watch something that looks good than just look on the board and see a win. if u do count the game yesterday Fisher is 13-3 as a starter .. I'd take that anyday

Quote from: boobyhasgameyo on October 07, 2012, 04:54:03 PM

Quote from: fisherfanatic99 on October 07, 2012, 04:09:24 PM

Quote from: boobyhasgameyo on October 07, 2012, 03:38:11 PM
For 3 quarters Fenti was playing at a level that made our offense multi-dimensional for the first time in a very long time.  Kramer makes our offense very predictable and he just has not been accurate this year.  You can say all you want about leadership FF99 but I do not think that excuses Kramer's flaws as a QB.  He should be a utility player on offense.  Running back, wildcat type QB, slot receiver, whatever.  But an every down QB he is not.  Before he got hurt I remember one play specifically he had one player wide open about 25 yards down the field which could have resulted in a huge play...Kramer over threw him by 10 yards easily.  That's what he does. 

Fenti for sure fell apart at the end of the game, but I wish we could have spent time developing him.  That was his first game of real meaningful playing time and it was against one of the best teams in the country.  He moved the ball and even ran well on more than a few occasions.

The play you are thinking of was a third down play with a bad snap that Kramer chased down off the turf ran around keeping the play alive and trying to make something out of nothing ? Is it a positive yes because its not a sack and loss yardage. Make that throw would be big time. I admit Fenti looked good but did not do anything Kramer couldn't do. Where they separated was down the stretch were Kramer has found ways time after time to win games ,Fenti plain out s**t the bed. Other thing is Fenti has 2 fumbles and 2 ints in a little over a quarter. When things went wrong he choked its that simple. I can't remember any time I can say that about Kramer . I just don't think you know the game fisher is trying to play. They want to possess the ball (run run run) to keep their top of the line defense off the field. They just need a qb who protects the ball and runs the offense because like last year points will come from that kind of offense. Its d3 football. You get your best players the ball ,Fisher does that by letting him touch the ball every play.

I very much disagree with this statement.  That would fly if Fisher has always been that way but they haven't.  Take the QB right before Kramer - Bailey.  The offense was completely different with him because he could throw.  His first year he had growing pains and the offense struggled as a result but then he flourished into probably our best QB ever.  Fisher has turned into this because of Kramer's strengths and equally as important his limitations.  What you get is a very one dimensional product that will not fly against the top tiered teams in the country.  I've been watching different iterations of Fisher offense for about a decade now and this is the worst of them all.  Did you have the opportunity to watch Fisher before your son played? 

Here is the PPG on offense the past few years:


This year through 4 full games since Kramer was hurt on the 5th:  26 ppg
2011:  29.23
2010:  43.17
*2009:  35
*2008:  29.18 (Bailey's first year as started that I mentioned)
*2007:  35.53
*2006:  37.36
2005:  40.18
2004:  37.91

Those asterisks indicate years that Fisher played Mount Union and if you are aware of them you'll know they don't yield too many points to anybody.  I'd put a star next to last year playing St. Thomas but again I am of the belief if we had a Bailey or older brother Kramer offense leading the attack we would have had a way better showing against them.

Yes I started watching them when mark Robinson went there. I don't think fisher has had a talented defense like the last two years.. they are dominate. I don't count bailey because even though he was a stud he never made it to the playoffs . With older Kramer they pounded the rock with Robinson and reile and Kramer's job was to mange the offense and take care of the ball (much like his brother ) and ever before Kramer was Fitzpatrick (now the oc at Utica) the common things these 3 qbs have in common (fitzy ,Kramer and Kramer) they all led fisher to the playoffs all leading offenses that were heavily depended on the run. Why change something that has proven to win big games and get into the playoffs . My question to you is are you more about stats and big points than winning games ?