Quote from: smedindy on November 22, 2014, 02:52:20 PM
Looks like Muhlenberg proved their playoff mettle, despite the nay-sayers. Took Widener down to the last seconds before losing.

Centre got rolled by JCU, but John Carroll is playing at a very elite level so I think most every D3 team would have gotten jacked up by them today.

JC is a very good team. Most impressed by: 3) overall team speed, 2) defensive line- big, athletic and disruptive, and 1) the QB- that guy is on a different level than anyone on the field. He is truly a defensive back's nightmare because he makes great, accurate throws into tight coverage. Very, very impressed with him.

I'll probably watch JCU's games the rest of the way. If they continue to play like this, it's going to take a excellent effort by an elite team to beat them.

Quote from: smedindy on November 21, 2014, 07:51:56 PM
As for splitting D3, gawd NO!

We've had that talk before. Remember we're not just dealing with football, but over 400+ institutions, 40+ conferences, and all kinds of stuff. I'll go back to Kenyon. D3 football, not so much. D3 swimming, hell yeah. You gonna move them around in divisions based on how good they are in one sport or another?

Would it be possible to split only football into two championships, D3 Large and D3 Small?

Quote from: smedindy on November 21, 2014, 07:32:07 PM
Some teams have people listed as assistants that don't get paid - or don't get paid to coach (they have another on-campus job).

Agreed. And this can be true of any of the schools.

Quote from: Bombers798891 on November 21, 2014, 05:28:37 PM
You know, I've thought a lot about this in recent days, and even changed my position.

I love that you said that. Says that you're open minded. 

Quote from: Bombers798891 on November 21, 2014, 05:28:37 PM
2.  I also think there are a lot of schools who have no desire to.

Maybe it just says that they're only willing to allocate resources up to a certain point to be competitive on a national level. The President and Board of Trustees likely see D3 athletics as complementary to academics and the overall education of their student athletes. And they likely see that the increased media exposure gained with successful athletics helps with two constant and important objectives: raising money from alumni and attracting new students.

But each set (Pres and Board) must determine their threshold of financial commitment, after which the law of diminishing returns sets in.

Quote from: AO on November 21, 2014, 05:39:56 PM
What changes would this football minded president make? 

One area of change would be the budget for coaches. Here's just a small sampling:

Berry College- 7 coaches
Hendrix - 7 coaches + 4 student assts
Centre College - 9 coaches
Rhodes - 9 coaches

Mount Union - 14 coaches & 2 student assts.
Wittenberg - 12 coaches
UMHB - 11 coaches, 5 graduate assts &  6 students assistants
UWW - 14 coaches

And some schools pay their coaches better, which generally leads to more stability. I was absolutely shocked to learn what one assistant was paid in another sport where they were the only asst. (Let's just say it was well below poverty level).

More coaches should result in a better prepared team. And recruiting could improve quite a bit with all these coaches able to "touch" the prospects.

Quote from: smedindy on November 21, 2014, 03:08:34 PM
The little guy who plays by the rules, and gets quashed, won't get in under your proposal. That's unfair.

The tournament is richer because of the stories of Macalester and Husson, and I'd argue even a Benedictine. It's a great story, it celebrates the spirit of athletics and D3. Let's not lose that.

Again, why is it contentious for a team that wins its league NOT qualify, while a team that fails to do so gets in. They had their chance.

Yes. Yes. And Yes.

D3 athletics does not equal D1 athletics, only played by slightly smaller, slower, less athletic competitors. The mission statement is different.

Quote from: smedindy on November 20, 2014, 09:28:22 PM
You know, maybe these schools are happy where they are athletically and academically and are not going to spend money to try to be a Whitewater. Or they don't have the budget; many state schools in the East do not and can't travel much because of budget issues. Or they need to focus on the 15+ OTHER sports they have programs for. The world does not revolve around football.  Yet they want to be part of a playoff process because that's what D3 is.

I couldn't agree more.

Quote from: smedindy on November 21, 2014, 01:55:31 PM
They could be. Playoffs don't roll around for every program every year.

I think this is a very important point that should not be overlooked.

With 244 schools represented, this is a huge division. And there is great disparity among the football playing schools with regard to school enrollments, athletic/football budgets and just where football "fits" in the hierarchy of priorities for each institution - where it fits in relation to their mission.

To some it may seem that D3 football is a sort of catch-all of teams that chose not to participate in D1 & D2. But there is a defined purpose of Division III athletics, as reflected in its mission statement:

http://www.ncaa.org/governance/division-iii-philosophy-statement

I just want to point out a few of these:

2.  Place special importance on the impact of athletics on the participants rather than on the spectators and place greater emphasis on the internal constituency (e.g., students, alumni, institutional personnel) than on the general public and its entertainment needs;

17. Give primary emphasis to regional in-season competition and conference championships; and

18. Support student-athletes in their efforts to reach high levels of athletics performance, which may include opportunities for participation in national championships, by providing all teams with adequate facilities, competent coaching and appropriate competitive opportunities.

Until there comes a time when there are more AQs than currently available tournament spots (32), then the discontent with an AQ-driven tournament primarily comes from the camps of teams that lost games and did not win their conference title. My argument is that at least those results were decided on the field and not by some subjective criteria, as well-thought out as it may have been.

Win your conference (#17) and you are in. If the tournament isn't "competitive enough" in the opinions of some, then refer to #2 (entertainment) or #18 -"may include" (not will include) and..."all teams". To leave out a conference champ, like an Adrian or Husson or Benedictine, because they weren't deemed competitive enough, would go against the mission statement. The NCAA is probably not going to change or stray from the current mission statement of Division III.

I realize most people rationalizing a scenario where an AQ team was left home are doing so under the future hypothetical time when D3 football has more AQ conferences than available tournament spots. My knowledge is limited here, but I'd still guess that time is a long way off. The fact that there are still eight Pool B/C opportunities I see as a huge bonus. If it were only four, I'd look at it the same way.

I'm not trying to insult anyone's intelligence or diminish opinions of anyone disagreeing with my viewpoint. This is, by far, the most well-intentioned, open-minded rational group of sports enthusiasts that I've encountered on the web or elsewhere. I'm blown away at how many years this community has been together.

And I appreciate how enthusiastic everyone is with regards to the best sport ever created, football, and with regards to the improvement of the football championship tournament.  That said, I look forward to continuing my education here and hearing any alternate viewpoints. I just think it's important to keep remembering that D3 is different. And that's a good thing.

Quote from: Colonel_U on November 19, 2014, 01:58:09 PM

This is what it's all about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0kc7W9jtpg

The team's excitement on being announced is at 1:50. We're all so proud of our young men! Go Colonels!

That video is awesome

Humility is a virtue.

That said, Go TLU! 

My initial impressions on some of @timtlu's comments on this topic were that, basically, we weren't really in agreement. But we've exchanged several long emails over the past few days. And I have to say that his first-hand experience with D3 athletics is both far different from mine yet very interesting and thought-provoking.

Its probably a conversation best kept offline though, so if anyone feels so inclined, shoot a PM his way. Great perspective that I really appreciated, Tim.

That said, in the bubble in which I live, I still like the idea. Some kids may get theirs egos stroked too much. But far too many don't get enough recognition of the positive paths they take. And I'd rather err on that side.

Quote from: infielddad on November 17, 2014, 04:41:58 PM
...In my view, it should  NOT be a recognition of past performance. Rather, is the reflection of  an opportunity to compete and earn a spot at the next level...

If there is to be recognition for past accomplishments, dedication and success at the D3 level, my view is that celebration needs to occur toward the end of the D3 experience, not at a point where nothing has yet been done in college athletics.

I appreciate your perspective, @infielddad. But I want to understand better. It seems as though you're not really a fan of NLI ceremony/recognition for any athletes, regardless of division. You're not drawing a line between D1/2 and D3, right? Thanks.

Quote from: Pat Coleman on November 17, 2014, 02:47:18 PM

Quote from: D3AlumniParent on November 16, 2014, 10:29:01 PMOglethorpe is adding.

I have not seen anything to say this. I know there has been talk going back at least a decade but that's a long way from action.

I stand corrected. I was told they were supposed to add by an athletics admin from an SAA school (not Centre). Oglethorpe wanted in the SAA but didn't offer enough sports. I just checked with her and there's still hope for football, but no definite plans yet. They're more likely to add softball and/or field hockey first.

Sorry for jumping the gun.

Quote from: AO on November 17, 2014, 12:41:59 AM

Quote from: D3AlumniParent on November 16, 2014, 11:43:50 PM
Watching Sunday Night Football with my son tonight. Player introductions come on. One of the Colts is from UMHB, another from Wheaton and a Patriot is from Condordia MN. 

Funny I didn't know they played football at those schools. 

The concordia mn is the d2 St. Paul version.

Oops. Sorry.

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on November 16, 2014, 11:38:08 AMI love this idea and hope it only helps raise more awareness for Division III and the student-athletes that make it great.

GREAT ideas Dave!

I could go on for days about the virtues of college athletics/athletes and about how I and several family members have been positively impacted by our participation. I believe smed has 95% of that covered very well already, so no need. But I'll give you my spin.

I actually put together a wonderful SOS metric that we can use that will solve all of this too. I'll come back to that.

Less than 7%of HS football players continue on to participate in college. This stat is very similar in other sports. That's statistically significant and a very big deal when those few kids decide to make the commitment to play at the next level.

Football in the late '80s consumed a great deal of my time- too much I thought. Now they even have spring football and seemingly year-round workouts. Out-of-class study time in the 80's consumed a ton of my time. Now it's just insane how much time is required of my daughter to adequately prepare for class. Put the two together and it takes a tremendous amount of discipline to effectively manage both. (That's why she decided against football, at least for freshman year.)

Seriously though, 7 out of 100 is a very exclusive group. We honor these student-athletes at our high school (no distinction of division levels), as do a great number of Cincinnati area schools. I see these on the news, twitter and Facebook all the time. The quick ceremony, in essence, serves to honor their athletic accomplishments of high school, as well as their commitment to the discipline required to handle sports and academics in college.

Simple quick ceremony- do it at lunch: athlete sits with parents, coaches behind, pics, vids, hat, sweatshirt, AD gives quick announcement  for the group, cookies, milk, over in 25 minutes. Parents are proud. Student athlete pumped. Lifetime memory for this exclusive group.

My son will soon decide between D3 football/lacrosse or D1 lacrosse. Many factors will be considered before a final decision will be made. The number of I's after the D are insignificant. There is a much, much, much greater difference between playing/not playing versus the division level. The honor is in the participation, dedication & commitment.

Oh yeah, SOS is "Strength of Signing". If less than 9.25% of high school participants carry on the activity in college, then they meet this SOS metric required to be honored and made to feel special. And I'm just going to say that all college sports fall below that number (or close enough so don't argue).

Watching Sunday Night Football with my son tonight. Player introductions come on. One of the Colts is from UMHB, another from Wheaton and a Patriot is from Condordia MN. 

Funny I didn't know they played football at those schools. 

Quote from: timtlu on November 16, 2014, 10:36:23 PM
Here's to hoping TLU and Muhlenberg face off in the quarters (so we can see where the game is hosted), and then TLU sees Centre in Salem so this can all be settled once and for all. 

Dude...that is so funny! I love it!

Then maybe we can both go to the game, sit next to each other, phones in hand and text insults back and forth.  Sounds like a plan.

Quote from: timtlu on November 16, 2014, 10:08:37 PM
Yeah, the only real hope is for the SCAC and ASC to split the Texas/regional teams in half to accommodate both leagues an AQ.  However, there is no way that happens, they are too far away philisophically and in profile at this point.  The SCAC champ will be hoping for an AQ for the foreseeable future.

Ah...I understand. Bummer. So what you need, then is organic growth- schools adding football. I read a great article somewhere- not sure if I found the link from this site or where. But it was about D3 athletics and how colleges were touting their success in recruiting students by adding new sports. Football can bring in anywhere between 80-120 males alone. Lacrosse is a great one, and very popular these days too, where you can add 40 males/females and the program costs are negligible compared to the increased revenue- 40 students @ $40k each (or whatever tuition is).

Hendrix recently picked up football after a several decade hiatus. Oglethorpe is adding. Berry recently added. I guess the challenge is in getting the administration on board and then in integrating the student athletes into the student body successfully.

I know smed and Dave were talking about some of the potential candidates the other day. Hopefully you'll be able to find "like-minded" institutions sooner than later.