Quote from: tigerfanalso on December 19, 2014, 11:17:19 AM
anyone have any insight into how many full time coaches are on staff at most competitive D3 programs and what the recruiting budget might look like ? Does recruiting budget run through the admissions office or through the athletic office, or combination of both ?

From my experience, I was on staff with four ft coaches and 4 pt and also one that had one FT coach and two restricted earnings and  4 pT

Think it varies from program to program and schools that have grad programs are able to offer GA spots which helps with recruiting efforts. If I had to take a guess the avg would be somewhere between 3 and 4

Quote from: jknezek on December 17, 2014, 02:25:53 PM
If you look on their soccer history website they clearly played a D1 schedule in 2005

http://www.oneontaathletics.com/cumestats.aspx?path=msoc&year=2005

Learn something every day! Thanks for pointing out. Admittedly I am not following soccer like i do football.

Quote from: D3ISGREAT on December 17, 2014, 10:03:18 AM
I dont want to beat a dead horse so to speak, but the ability to fund an athlete at the d3 level is the biggest factor. Now you have programs that sell itself because they win (UMU, UWW, UMHB..etc) and some kids might look past the fact that it might cost alot out of pocket to go to UMU, and they will go there to win a Nat Champ. But for example, a kid John Carroll is recruiting and really likes JC, and they are tops on the list, with UMU being second. Now right off the top JC costs 15g more, so when its all said and done kid gets in both schools and he wants to got to JC but its going to cost him 20g out of pocket where as UMU might cost 10g out of pocket. Thats where teams will lose kids. Thats 40,000 more out of pocket the family will have to pay just to go to JC. Yes kids will choose to do that, but more often then not "its going to cost me less to go to UMU, and I will most likely win a nat champ within my four years.. once again a hard sell for JC coaching staff. My argument is not what the current top programs are doing, but this is why you wont see a big change anytime soon. I think its big possibility another Wisc State school will step up, with the loss of UWW coaching staff. However I think you could take UMU coaching staff and put them at Johns Hopkins, and they are not going to to do any better then the current staff there. I mean no disrespect either with that statement. Something needs to change at this level for other teams to have a shot. At this level you cant just say I am going to go get better players and we will win. Its not an even playing field like it is at D1 , where kids have to just qualify by NCAA standards to be eligible to get a scholarship.

At the D3 level its not like D1( as far as funding players), where programs are trying to build the best facilities in the country to compete against other league opponents. UMU stadium is nothing special, and places like UWW and UMHB and even cortland St have better facilities. Look at RPI's stadium, its borderline irresponsible for the d3 level. They never come close to selling out the place, and it cost a truckload of money to build. Now there was talk about them moving to 1aa, but i dont see that happening.

Sorry for the previous ambiguity. I was referencing RPI. There was talk about them moving up for football when they were in the process of building that new stadium. Already had hockey at d1 , They have a huge endwoment. Sorry for the confusion

Quote from: jknezek on December 17, 2014, 11:56:58 AM

Quote from: HSCTiger fan on December 17, 2014, 11:49:22 AM

Quote from: jknezek on December 17, 2014, 11:44:55 AM

Quote from: HSCTiger fan on December 17, 2014, 11:41:14 AM
I know I brought up the NCAA rule. I've always wondered how John Hopkins plays D1 Lacrosse. Anyone know?

Grandfathered in. Lacrosse, some hockey teams. Athletes on scholarship in those sports can't play other sports.

It must be a Lacrosse and hockey thing. Davidson for example was D3 football and D1 in other sports and the moved up to FCS non scholarship. They are in the same football conference as Butler.

This wiki has a good explanation under the section labeled "controversy"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_I_%28NCAA%29#Controversy

The Division I programs at each of the eight "waiver schools" which were grandfathered with the passing of Proposal 65-1 were:

    Clarkson University – men's and women's ice hockey
    Colorado College – men's ice hockey, women's soccer
    Hartwick College – men's soccer, women's water polo
    Johns Hopkins University – men's and women's lacrosse
    Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute – men's ice hockey (women's ice hockey moved up to Division I in 2005)
    Rutgers University-Newark – men's volleyball (dropped to Division III in 2014)
    St. Lawrence University – men's and women's ice hockey
    SUNY Oneonta – men's soccer (dropped to Division III in 2006)
[/quo

Other great examples are Hobart (lax 1995 moved d1), RIT hockey,(early 2000's) Union Hockey.
I have lived in NY most of my life and I have never recalled Oneonta being d1 in anything. Hartwick is in Oneonta, maybe a misprint?

I dont want to beat a dead horse so to speak, but the ability to fund an athlete at the d3 level is the biggest factor. Now you have programs that sell itself because they win (UMU, UWW, UMHB..etc) and some kids might look past the fact that it might cost alot out of pocket to go to UMU, and they will go there to win a Nat Champ. But for example, a kid John Carroll is recruiting and really likes JC, and they are tops on the list, with UMU being second. Now right off the top JC costs 15g more, so when its all said and done kid gets in both schools and he wants to got to JC but its going to cost him 20g out of pocket where as UMU might cost 10g out of pocket. Thats where teams will lose kids. Thats 40,000 more out of pocket the family will have to pay just to go to JC. Yes kids will choose to do that, but more often then not "its going to cost me less to go to UMU, and I will most likely win a nat champ within my four years.. once again a hard sell for JC coaching staff. My argument is not what the current top programs are doing, but this is why you wont see a big change anytime soon. I think its big possibility another Wisc State school will step up, with the loss of UWW coaching staff. However I think you could take UMU coaching staff and put them at Johns Hopkins, and they are not going to to do any better then the current staff there. I mean no disrespect either with that statement. Something needs to change at this level for other teams to have a shot. At this level you cant just say I am going to go get better players and we will win. Its not an even playing field like it is at D1 , where kids have to just qualify by NCAA standards to be eligible to get a scholarship.

At the D3 level its not like D1( as far as funding players), where programs are trying to build the best facilities in the country to compete against other league opponents. UMU stadium is nothing special, and places like UWW and UMHB and even cortland St have better facilities. Look at RPI's stadium, its borderline irresponsible for the d3 level. They never come close to selling out the place, and it cost a truckload of money to build. Now there was talk about them moving to 1aa, but i dont see that happening.

Coaching does matter in alot of cases, but as the old adage goes 'its about the johnnies and joes not the x's and o's. If you cant get the players admitted and funded you cant compete. If you have a stronger academic school that costs a lot of $, you just arent getting the quality in quantity that you need to compete against the big boys of d3. Academic profile is very important, while as I mentioned in  a previous post, you can take any student you want as a college but can you fund that student based off of your academic profile?  You can get way with one or maybe two kids a year but you need to get 10-12 per yr who can really compete against the UMU or UWW. Now the simple answer would be to find very wealthy kids who are great players or find very very smart awesome players that can earn merit awards. The problem with the latter , now you run into those kids looking at the Ivy's, and they bypass the Dickinsons, Carnegie Mellons, John Hopkins of the world bc they can go play "d1" and get an ivy league degree. Because  of the never ending rise in tuition schools are going to price themselves out of actually competing.

Quote from: D3ISGREAT on December 16, 2014, 01:43:18 PM
Hey everyone, I have been a reader for many years and never posted but this is a topic that I love and there is great chatter about this. First and foremost congrats AGAIN to UWW and UMU on making the Stagg Bowl. I will offer my two cents on this and I am sure I am sharing stuff that many already know. Over the past 10 years I have been fortunate enough to coach football at the d3 level(no longer coaching) and also have had the opportunity to work in higher ed including the world of admissions. While so many of the comments are spot on with great coaching, supportive administration (for me I wrap this up with flexible admissions/and $ backing athletics), the most important item in this whole equation is the cost of the school. While coaching and a supportive adm is def part of it there is only so much a school at the D3 level will be able to do when it comes down to cost. I could write three pages of how this process works but I will try to sum it up, I hope.

Every program has there strengths and weaknesses as selling points, and obviously at this level most kids are not only buying into the programs they select but really where the school is going to position them for a career or grad school. Every year the admissions office and FA office at every school needs to send a report to the NCAA about the grant dollars student athletes receive from that institution. They are also sending in an aggregate report for non athletes and their FA packages.( that is broken down by gender race etc) NCAA looks to see if red flags pop up. So an example Johhny Smith who is coming as a football player and has 25,000 grant from the school and he is a B student. Well all the other students who are B students with similar financial need better have a similar packages. Obviously there are ways you can get creative to a certain point but as the cost of schools go up especially in the private school world the separation is only going to get worse. So schools that have a lower cost, great coaching and supportive adm always have a chance to compete if they can put it all together. When you have football guys as Ath directors (Wesley , UMU) also helps a ton. Some previous posters also pointed out state population, I look past that and point out they are traditionally football rich states( a lot of talent in those states). If a school in FLA started a D3 program, my money would be on them to get into the stagg bowl after a few yrs of playing. Now there are certainly other factors that contribute to the success or dynasties of programs, but cost will always be the main factor when it comes down to shaking things up at a D3 level and taking programs to the next level. Sorry for the length of My first post but I figured I would make it count!!!  Here are some approximate numbers of Final 8
Wesley College-$33,000 COA (cost of  Attendance)
UMU- $35,000 COA
UWW-$14,000 COA (in state)
Linfield-$49,000* always exceptions to any rule
Wartburg $45,000
Hobart- $60,000
Widener-$52,000
John Carroll-$46,000

I guess my overall point is if I can pay lets say 6g a yr out of pocket to go UWW and play for a Nat Champ or pay 18g out of pocket to go t lets say St Thomas with hopes of getting there, man that's a tough sell. Have a great day everyone

I also forgot to add in my previous post, academic standards are obviously another part of this equation when it comes to what type of package a student can get. As an institution you can admit anyone,b ut can you fund them based off of the students individual academics

Hey everyone, I have been a reader for many years and never posted but this is a topic that I love and there is great chatter about this. First and foremost congrats AGAIN to UWW and UMU on making the Stagg Bowl. I will offer my two cents on this and I am sure I am sharing stuff that many already know. Over the past 10 years I have been fortunate enough to coach football at the d3 level(no longer coaching) and also have had the opportunity to work in higher ed including the world of admissions. While so many of the comments are spot on with great coaching, supportive administration (for me I wrap this up with flexible admissions/and $ backing athletics), the most important item in this whole equation is the cost of the school. While coaching and a supportive adm is def part of it there is only so much a school at the D3 level will be able to do when it comes down to cost. I could write three pages of how this process works but I will try to sum it up, I hope.

Every program has there strengths and weaknesses as selling points, and obviously at this level most kids are not only buying into the programs they select but really where the school is going to position them for a career or grad school. Every year the admissions office and FA office at every school needs to send a report to the NCAA about the grant dollars student athletes receive from that institution. They are also sending in an aggregate report for non athletes and their FA packages.( that is broken down by gender race etc) NCAA looks to see if red flags pop up. So an example Johhny Smith who is coming as a football player and has 25,000 grant from the school and he is a B student. Well all the other students who are B students with similar financial need better have a similar packages. Obviously there are ways you can get creative to a certain point but as the cost of schools go up especially in the private school world the separation is only going to get worse. So schools that have a lower cost, great coaching and supportive adm always have a chance to compete if they can put it all together. When you have football guys as Ath directors (Wesley , UMU) also helps a ton. Some previous posters also pointed out state population, I look past that and point out they are traditionally football rich states( a lot of talent in those states). If a school in FLA started a D3 program, my money would be on them to get into the stagg bowl after a few yrs of playing. Now there are certainly other factors that contribute to the success or dynasties of programs, but cost will always be the main factor when it comes down to shaking things up at a D3 level and taking programs to the next level. Sorry for the length of My first post but I figured I would make it count!!!  Here are some approximate numbers of Final 8
Wesley College-$33,000 COA (cost of  Attendance)
UMU- $35,000 COA
UWW-$14,000 COA (in state)
Linfield-$49,000* always exceptions to any rule
Wartburg $45,000
Hobart- $60,000
Widener-$52,000
John Carroll-$46,000

I guess my overall point is if I can pay lets say 6g a yr out of pocket to go UWW and play for a Nat Champ or pay 18g out of pocket to go t lets say St Thomas with hopes of getting there, man that's a tough sell. Have a great day everyone