Thank you MAF.  I had a whole response typed up after Falconer's first post but did not want to be the first to comment and wanted to wait to see your response and think you were spot on.  As for Falconer, calling a college athlete classless based on the 90 min you see of them, live maybe once a year, or on a 16 inch computer screen says way more about you than Tueno. 

Quote from: Falconer on October 22, 2018, 03:05:35 PM

Quote from: futballfan20 on October 22, 2018, 01:46:45 PM

Quote from: paclassic89 on October 19, 2018, 04:07:59 PM
That's putting it kindly...
2018 cumulative fouls thus far (Top 3 in MACC)
Lycoming 212
LVC 166
Messiah 98

2018 cumulative cards
Lycoming 21
LVC 9
Messiah 3

If you're a skillful out of conference centennial or UAA side, the risk of injury might outweigh the SOS upside when scheduling Lycoming

I was curious on how Lycoming's totals compared to the opponents they played in the categories you mentioned above.  We all know Lycoming plays physical.  They will always have a high foul total, which in most cases automatically means they will have a high card total.  That was evident in your post.  After some brief research on the stat pages of the Commonwealth teams: 

Lycoming is sitting at 20 YC and 1 RC
The total for cards against them.  20 YC and 1 RC. 
This would suggest if Lycoming is a dangerous team they must get everyone's most dangerous game of the season as well. 

When comparing fouls.  Lycoming has committed the most fouls at 233.  As a team they were fouled 194 times. Among the MAC Commonwealth that appears to be second only to Arcadia at 214.   For Lycoming's fast and physical approach to the game a difference of 39 fouls for/against can still be a point for argument, but this does seem to provide some insight for how the Lycoming games are reffed. 

I don't think this has very much to do with how officials approach Lyco, except that those officials who prefer to "let them play" (which can vary from simply ignoring incidental fouls to swallowing the whistle for intentional cheap shots) will not add as much to their already high numbers.

Let's look at numbers from a few previous seasons, to see that Lyco is typically an outlier on the high end, both for fouls and for cards.

2014 (21 games): 303 fouls, 33 YC, 2 RC
2015 (22 games): 367 fouls, 43 YC[!], 1 RC
2016 (19 games): 277 fouls, 36 YC, 4 RC[!]
2017 (22 games): 354 fouls, 37 YC, 2 RC

The average is 15.5 fouls/game. This year they have 14.6, certainly in the same ball park.

For comparison, the NJAC teams have each played 8 conference games so far this year. Here's the numbers for fouls, YCs and RCs in those 8 games only--for which, perhaps, the set of officials might have a lot of overlap:

Kean         125   13-3
Montclair State   116   23-1
New Jersey City   104   13-2
Ramapo      122   17-1
Rowan      141   8-1
Rutgers-Camden 93   18-0
Rutgers-Newark   103   13-2
Stockton      109   10-2
TCNJ         106   9-3
WPU                   104   13-0

This comes to 14.0 fouls/game for "average" NJAC team. It's no secret that the NJAC has a reputation for being somewhat thuggish--whether deserved or not. This year's Warriors would fit right into this picture, and earlier Lyco teams would be in the top 2-3.

For comparison, consider the MACC statistics, again just for in-conference games. Lyco in 6 games has 95 fouls (almost 16 per game), which would put them below Rowan and above Ramapo in 2nd, but surprisingly just 1 YC and 1 RC in conference. Widener is next with 76 fouls in 6 games; the bottom dwellers are Hood (44 in 6 games) and Messiah (41 in 6 games). Overall, the MACC teams average just 10.6 fouls/game, and if we remove Lyco, then just 9.9 fouls/game.

This evidence, including for Lyco over a period of 5 years, strongly suggests that Lyco's numbers are what they are, not as a result of the whims of officials.

My argument was not that Lycoming was at the whims of the officials and that is why they get called for fouls.  Lycoming plays physical and fast and are going to get called for fouls and frankly that does not seem to bother them.  Your statement that there are intentional cheap shots I am not sure.  I do not watch every soccer game so can't say it never happens and I'll leave you to your opinion. 

As far as your breakdown in fouls I will break it down the same way I did in my first post.

               Lyco                                                                           Opponents
2014 (21 games): 303 fouls, 33 YC, 2 RC                2014 (21 games): 271 fouls, 25 YC, 0 RC                      Difference + 32 Lyco
2015 (22 games): 367 fouls, 43 YC[!], 1 RC            2015 (22 games): 331 fouls, 33 YC, 3 RC                      Difference + 36 Lyco
2016 (19 games): 277 fouls, 36 YC, 4 RC[!]            2016 (19 games): 248 fouls, 26 YC, 1 RC                      Difference + 29 Lyco
2017 (22 games): 354 fouls, 37 YC, 2 RC                2017 (22 games): 255 fouls, 30 YC, 3 RC                      Difference + 99 Lyco 

Now last year there appears to have been a more foul happy team on lyco but all in all the trend seems to hold true that while Lyco does get called for a good amount of fouls they earn a good amount as well.  The argument just comes to is the +30ish too much not the overall total number.  I will even throw in the argument that anyone watching Lyco games last year will admit that Adbi #9 only ever earned about 1 foul for every 10 that should have been called.  But I also know many teams can point to a player like that as well.

To continue your argument of fouls per game

15.5 fouls/game for Lycoming for 2014 - 2017.  Lycoming earned 13.15 fouls/game in that time. 

This year in the MACC Lyco averages 13.6 in the 6 games but earned 12.33.

My argument was just as MAF said.  While Lyco will always have a high foul count, the other side is they take a lot of fouls as well.   Is averaging a little more than 2 fouls more per game than you earned that bad? Or a little over 1 this season?

[Modified by moderator to fix format of quoted posts]

Quote from: paclassic89 on October 19, 2018, 04:07:59 PM

Quote from: Mr.Right on October 19, 2018, 03:46:16 PM

Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 18, 2018, 01:14:56 PM

Quote from: rudy on October 18, 2018, 12:42:35 PM
with the weak SOS and loss to Messiah last night it appears Lyco will have to win the conference tournament to make NCAA. That seems harsh given they are probably better than majority of teams that will get a berth. Wonder why they played a relatively weak schedule.

Lycoming typically plays one UAA school a year, and one or two Centennial.  Perhaps Centennial schools dropped them from the schedule?

After watching Lycoming maybe about 2-3 times every season for the past 3 years I can say with confidence they probably have some issues with scheduling non-conference games. Their direct style, athleticism at almost every position, pressing and physical play would definitely keep some Coaches from wanting to play them. UAA and Centennial teams I am guessing would rather not play an opponent like that because they muck up the game especially if they are running subs in on top of all the previous crap I mentioned. Amherst has the same reputation and if they were not in Nescac I can promise you more than half the league would not play them. More skilled teams see enough of that in the NCAA's so why deal with it in the regular season. Amherst also of course has all the bench antics, over coaching and berating of refs to go along with their unattractive style so it makes for an even more of a nuisance to play them if you do not have to.

That's putting it kindly...
2018 cumulative fouls thus far (Top 3 in MACC)
Lycoming 212
LVC 166
Messiah 98

2018 cumulative cards
Lycoming 21
LVC 9
Messiah 3

If you're a skillful out of conference centennial or UAA side, the risk of injury might outweigh the SOS upside when scheduling Lycoming

I was curious on how Lycoming's totals compared to the opponents they played in the categories you mentioned above.  We all know Lycoming plays physical.  They will always have a high foul total, which in most cases automatically means they will have a high card total.  That was evident in your post.  After some brief research on the stat pages of the Commonwealth teams: 

Lycoming is sitting at 20 YC and 1 RC
The total for cards against them.  20 YC and 1 RC. 
This would suggest if Lycoming is a dangerous team they must get everyone's most dangerous game of the season as well. 

When comparing fouls.  Lycoming has committed the most fouls at 233.  As a team they were fouled 194 times. Among the MAC Commonwealth that appears to be second only to Arcadia at 214.   For Lycoming's fast and physical approach to the game a difference of 39 fouls for/against can still be a point for argument, but this does seem to provide some insight for how the Lycoming games are reffed. 

Quote from: Falconer on November 04, 2017, 10:45:30 PM

Quote from: firstplaceloser on November 04, 2017, 10:33:48 PM
when was the last time Messiah didn't win the conference ..? his lycominng team resembles the way RUC played in 2013. press hard, getting stuck in, and work your *** off or sit the bench. this could be their year for a final 4 run. they just proved they have it. i would love to see lycoming play in the NJAC.

when it comes to reffing the ones who don't "let em play" are usually the ones who "don't get assigned games" i hear it all too often, parents can't stand seeing a high intensity physical game.

As I said the other day, Lycoming had nothing to prove before coming to Grantham tonight. They are as good this year as anyone in the country. It had occurred to me to suggest that they'd fit right in as an NJAC team, but I felt I should leave that hornet's nest untouched this time. Many here will recall the Rowan-Lyco game in 2016 as just another day in the NJAC--is this not so?

As for physical play, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it, as long as it's not dirty. But, it should be called for what it is. When NBA teams would play "hack a Shaque," the fouls were called and free throws were taken. Teams knew there would be a penalty for playing that way, and they took a calculated risk. All well and good. That doesn't favor one team over another, as long as the fouls are called on both ends. In soccer, however, so much depends on what a given official will choose not to see. That's not just, IMO. Let a team decide to mug people, if they want to play that way, but let them be penalized with free kicks and (where warranted) cards of bright colors. Not to pull cards when players pull people down or knock them over, without going for the ball (something I saw at lease half a dozen times tonight), is IMO simple incompetence, if not dishonesty. If you think a team is offside, you call it. If you see a team mugging people, you call it. It's pretty simple, or at least it should be. There should be no more hesitation to call fouls and pull cards than there is to call back a play.

Lycoming plays a fast physical game regardless of who they play and that was no different tonight. To suggest a "Hack a Shaq" game or the post in the mid-Atlantic thread of targeting a certain player is, at best, making excuses for a dissapointing loss. While I will admit that the officiating was very poor this game Lycoming scored on two set pieces and played a very tough defensive game and that was why the result was what it was. Lyco's center back #23 who was snubbed of the Defensive MVP in the commonwealth  played a very tough game against Messiahs offense and put a goal away himself. Refs should not play a factor in the result of a match and there were no blatant missed calls that drastically changes the game. Unlike in the first match up in Williamsport where the ref missed two potential hand balls in the box and a Lycomings forward getting kicked in the face on a clear goal scoring opportunity. I understand opposing fan bases will always disagree on calls throughout the game. But Lycoming plays hard, not dirty and there is a big difference. Either way hopefully both teams will be playing for the next couple weeks and who knows there might be a chapter 3.

Quote from: darad44 on October 04, 2017, 12:04:07 PM
What does the board think about Lycoming's game play?  High foul counts; 182 to date.  High yellow card count; 22.  They had 25 fouls and 2 yellow cards yesterday.  Vs Messiah who only has 69 fouls and 3 yellow cards.  Is that taught or just the type of player Lycoming recruits?

I feel like this post was lost in the excitement of the JHU-Messiah game.  I am confused as to what this post post is trying to accomplish. This isn't the first time Lycoming's Foul count has been brought up as I know it was mentioned last year and probably the year before. Lycoming plays a high pressure defensive game which depending on how the Ref calls the game can result in high fouls.  As for the comparison to Messiah...they play two competently different styles of soccer so the stats on everything are going to be different probably fouls being the biggest difference since possessing the ball for 65% of the game means it is hard to foul.  We are a week and a half away from the game and it is exciting to read the debates on the outcome of the game.  However the foul counts of the two teams tells you little more than possibly one team plays more physical than the other.    As another poster so elegantly posted "Lycoming wants a physical sloppy game"  and Messiah wants possession.  Yet they both sit at 11-1 and 2-0 in conference.