Quote from: Mr.Right on April 11, 2019, 09:58:25 AM
Murphy was a big shock when it was announced. However, it is now April and he is still listed as their Head Coach online and I have not seen an official opening. Is it definitive that he is OUT? I am assuming he is done but for Conn College to also get rid of a Head Lax and Head B-Ball Coach and now with Murphy resigning something is not quite right in that athletic department and the Conn College "top dogs" might want to start looking at the AD and administration as the problem. To say the AD at Conn is aloof would be an understatement. Either way to bring it back to Men's Soccer Conn College MUST make a smart hire here. Conn is not like other Nescac's IMO for recruiting and that was why Murphy had so much success. He was a damn good recruiter and you must get creative because Conn is NOT an easy school to recruit to.

This is interesting to learn, as my son came close to going there this coming year. An "aloof AD" as you said sure isn't a good fit for a go-getter like him. Another of his frustrations --not that this had any bearing on his departure, but I know because we were caught up in it -- was lack of transparency for ED recruits regarding cost, which he expressed as an ongoing barrier to his recruiting; he lost my kid because of it. He said had been gunning for years for CC to do a financial aid pre-read process for recruits to no avail, and it sure seemed to irritate him that this was a NESCAC-wide issue. So since reading about his departure, my son and I have been joking that it was him who put Murphy over the edge. Obviously that's a joke, but I will note: boy was he pissed off and not good at hiding it. (A reaction that proved my son's misgivings about him in the first place.) My point is that based observing on his personality type, someone who is super ambitious, intense, and puts in 150% -- yet is maybe a little short fused -- I wouldn't be surprised if he suddenly reached a boiling point about something, or a combination of things, and said screw it, I'm done. Maybe he's a better fit for a D1 school.

Quote from: rangerfan on September 17, 2018, 11:43:27 AM

Quote from: mom1234 on September 15, 2018, 07:26:57 PM

6. Closely monitor your kid's communications with coaches to be sure he's understanding a coach's intentions, and keep your radar up for anything funky. You are wiser. In my experience coaches were forthright and pretty clear, but we did have one situation that I'm sure is very rare in NESCAC: a coach who, without seeing your kid play, tells him—yes this actually happened and I heard it with my own ears because it was a phone message—"I'll use a tip on you" when he does not necessarily intend to do so and later retracts. I hate to throw this guy under the bus because he's truly a good guy just finding his way. Even when coaches are being open, the untrained ear of a 17-year-old can easily gloss over the difference between "You're definitely on my list of top recruits" and "you're my top recruit." So just find out exactly what is being said.

So that's the run-down. I guess it's time to jump over to the Centennial board if such a thing exists...

Mom1234,

Congrats & good luck to you and your son. I know one of the F&M freshman well, he's a good player and an even better kid.

I want to offer a bit more from my son's experience, as he is a 2019 NESCAC commit. We got that "you're on my list of top recruits" from one coach. In fact, I think your quote above was identical to what my son (and wife) was told in person by a coach last spring. I'll bet it's the same coach. That was translated for me by someone that know this coach well. This coach is later than most to make offers to players because he continues to hold out hope that some National Team pool players will decide to forego D1 and instead choose to become an impact player at a top D3 school, and the coach wants to save the spots for a difference maker. To the best of my knowledge, this coach is still waiting Had he offered my son a spot in the spring, my son would likely have accepted. Glad he is slow, as my son made a better choice for him.

On the other hand, we never had a coach use the word TIP with us. They preferred the word 'support' and seemed to use that the most.

We did get the "you're my top recruit", "you're my 1st offer for the 2019 class" and "if you decide you want to come here, I will support your application with the admissions office." And he did once my son called to tell him he wanted in. It seemed like the language was overly specific for a reason, so your point above is well taken--kids need to listen VERY carefully to what is being said!

Finally, in our experience, the NESCAC coaches were honest. What I mean by that is, there was no equivocating, and there was no worry about an offer being retracted. Perhaps that had to do with my son, but more likely it was the coaches we were dealing with, and the club my son plays for. You've only got one reputation, and as a coach, once you screw a kid, you screw yourself. My son's club produces a lot of men and women NESCAC players. We had a long talk with my son's future coach on this exact subject. It was quite enlightening to get the coaches perspective on the process. I'll add that I know of a former D3 coach that screwed a kid a few years ago and he couldn't recruit any good kids from our area after that incident, and the coach is now a D1 assistant and that player is now in NESCAC. A step up on the coach's resume perhaps, but he had no choice because he must have seen the writing on the wall. Once he went to D1, my son took that school off of his list--he just didn't want to be around that guy.

But until we get the acceptance letter in December, none of this means a thing.

Congrats rangerfan to your son as well! Thanks so much for sharing this insight. I'll tell you what, our offender is not the guy who is now a D1 assistant, nor would it be the coach who you said gives offers late. Your comments on what happens to coaches who screw a kid even once are enlightening. Lucky for this particular coach we aren't in a top feeder club for that school, but we are certainly in a club he specifically said he knows, respects, and wants to recruit from.  I hope he learned his lesson on this one so he doesn't screw himself as you said. BTW it wasn't just one fib. The first three or four phone messages, calls, and emails included specific language like "I'll use a tip on you" and "my number #1 guy," etc., (not to mention we thought his overly dramatic jump-for-joy type emails in all caps and exclamation points were a bit "unusual"), but then, subsequent communications evolved into muddier "you're on my list of top recruits" and the like. At that point I called the guy up and politely asked for an explanation. I was amazed at how much dodging and dancing and double-talking around my questions he did before his conscience took over and he finally broke down and told me where S actually stood AND admitted to fibbing just to pull S in. Among other things, he did also mention holding out for DA D1 converts. He was apologetic and I thought his regret seemed sincere, but he gets another huge demerit from me for saying he was going to call S later that day to explain, and he never did. He also lost points during preread phase for very poor follow-up. Yep, that guy has A LOT of work to do...

Anyway, I owe thanks to Falconer who said last spring "If I'm your kid, I'm doing' F&M" and to others who had good things to say about that program. Good call!!! My kid definitely agrees. Straight-up coaches with a sold team culture. He'll take that any over the other.

Quote from: BillWill on August 28, 2018, 08:08:41 AM

Quote from: mom1234 on July 25, 2018, 01:32:32 AM

Quote from: PaulNewman on July 24, 2018, 07:45:47 PM

Quote from: EB2319 on July 24, 2018, 06:11:49 PM
Where's the eating popcorn emoticon when you need it?

I can't decide whether to go with some traditional Orville R, moderate-liberal Smartfood Cheddar, or some more Wesleyan-esque Trader Joe's Herbs and Spices.

This is great stuff and hopefully will spiral into a regular blog as the saga unfolds, with the side benefit of some of us (including me) reminding everyone another time or two about the cool, elite places WE and our kids went to college.  I'm in.  The college search was a great, exhilarating time, when, before actual realities and decisions roll in, everything and every place is possible.  Great stuff for those of us who loved making and re-making lists and would love to go through the whole thing again.

So many nuances.  Too Jewish.  Midfield plays the way we like but doesn't need us.  Too rural.  City is great except if its Hartford.  Classes too big but at least mimics Europe.  Better than any strong Academy players that have played at F&M but not even playing Academy and might not even make a good Academy squad.  Could get bored.  Needs the ball but might not get off the bench.  Well, at least will be able to pull the strings for the scout team and use that intuitive decision-making in practices.  One national title coach is a jerk (proven fact apparently) who plays crap soccer.  Colby might have a flake.  The Wesleyan coach is cool but he keeps it real about realistic academic chances, and who wants all that deconstructive chalking in Middletown anyway?  So many schools that aren't good enough even though there's no signal about any suggesting admission.  Live in the Midwest but can only consider what works with Logan Airport.  Rochester has an airport.  In fact, all the UAA schools do.  No consideration of the excellent schools that sound like actual fits....Gettysburg, Dickinson, Denison, DePauw, Centre, Rhodes.

Several people have suggested what to do.  Pursue what you think you like broadly.  Pick some places to visit that want you to visit, and be sure to include at least a couple where you're very confident that admission is not an issue.  Go on said visits, and then decide on small vs big, rural vs city, campus cultures, team cultures, coaches, playing styles, likely playing time at places where you think playing style fits, etc, etc.

That's quite the stand-up routine... whatever the popcorn flavor, I'm throwing it at the screen watching this reel of "facts" which are quite "nuanced" themselves! A few corrections are in order before this commentary is permanently stamped on the collective mind of this board regarding our poor non-superstud:
- "Better than any strong academy players that have ever played at F and M." You mean all one of them? [burn emoji] What I actually said: Better than the incoming freshman. Small nuance...
- "Not even playing academy and might not even make a good squad."  Truth: Played middling academy before, then made squad this year again but turned it down. (You can pick on that decision all you want, but consider driving 25 miles in rush hour straight through a huge city four or five night a week and get home at 11pm... If you survive to apply to college, see if any nescac school thinks you are "well-rounded.")
- "Lives in midwest...."  Fact: Never said that. Guess another region...
"..But can only consider what works with Logan Airport." That's right. Or Philadelphia. Unless you are offering to give him your frequent flyer miles on American Eagle, he's going Southwest, heck, maybe even Spirit.
- "Could get bored." Fine. Son (and you all) have put to rest that silly Mom Concern. As an alum of a nescac school, I have duly warned him, however, that if he is bored, it won't be because of the soccer, it will be due to the lack thereof during a long, miserable winter stuck on a hill outside of New Hartford or Pittsfield or some other exciting place...
- "So many schools aren't good enough..."  Huh? I assure you, they are all more than good enough."... but no signal about any suggesting admission." Sure they are, but I'm not going to tell you which...
- "No consideration of the excellent schools that sound like actual fits....Gettysburg, Dickinson..." These two were and are, but I hadn't brought them into the discussion.

On that note, it's probably time for Mom to spare this board any more of the recruiting "saga." We'll suffer through the madness on the sidelines.

For the record I get that my kid is not superstud. Just don't be mean to poor Mom on some future date if he ends up sitting on a bench!

Let me guess:

You're from Texas, not the Midwest.
You're considering Gettysburg, F&M, Hamilton (alum), and other NESCAC schools
Did the "D3 East Coast Summer ID Camp Tour - 2018"
You prefer bigger city - would be good fit in Boston area D3 or Rhodes or Johns Hopkins for their location - rules out some of NESCAC and Gettysbury and F&M since not near airports or metro areas.

Your son (R) is very talented - would fit in at any of these schools but wouldn't stand out on day 1. Sone schools are a bit of a stretch academically but he can handle the workload.
Best of luck - let everyone know where he ends up.

Wow BillWill, eerily correct on a few points, specifically Texas and Hamilton. If you aren't psychic, where do we know you from?

Anyway, even though you all more interested in the fall season currently, I'll share what happened with recruiting (and the mistakes we made) while it's fresh in my mind in hopes of helping anothermom or any other parents. (This isn't over until it's over, so I have plenty of time to make more mistakes and let you know later:)

S ended up committing to F&M and is perfectly happy with his choice for the time being, but we'll see. In a nutshell, being strategic about which schools to visit and when was no easy task and this played a big role in determining his options in the end. To be honest, the other big calcualtion was financial. With F&M, you basically hand the coaches a printout of the net price calculator, and they submit it with the preread and tell you, as long as you put the numbers in right, this is pretty much what you'll get. No NESCAC school will do that. You are in the dark with no recourse or bargaining power to later say to the school, "Hey, you said it would be xyz." The real purpose of having ED1 rounds is to bring in not only top athletes but top dollars. No secret there.

As far as NESCAC, S had "support" from Conn College, Bowdoin, and Hamilton, but he ended up a "C" band student for both Bowdoin and Hamilton. Sounded like he was A band for Conn, but he turned the offer down because he didn't feel the love with Murphy, F&M is a stronger school, and anyways, muddiness about cost for all three scared the heck out of me.

So here's what I learned. Maybe these personal stories offer some insight for anyone looking for it.

1. Don't let your kid decide he's going to ditch a school just because he doesn't like the coach, because that guy might not be there tomorrow. If your kid likes a school that is not too far off academically, make him keep communicating and do the clinics. In hindsight, IF S hadn't flaked in the midst of Bates' coaching turnover, he'd probably have it as an option. But it was too little too late: Within a week of Sheikh getting hired on, S tried to jump back in the game, got B band on the preread, but ultimately a new coach who's trying to do things right is not about to hand out a tip at the 11th hour to a kid he hasn't seen play in person when he has other decent players who the assistant coach had seen and are committing. S doesn't share my regret because he prefers to go to a team where he knows where he stands rather than jumping into something in flux where it might hard to have a sense of how you are going to fit in.

2. Think twice about going to a clinic for a school that you haven't visited prior. We tried the best we could, but we couldn't get to enough schools simply because of geography and the constraints of school, soccer, etc. So we wasted S's time by going to the late July clinic at Tufts when he could have been at Bates; well, he got there, did the tour, etc. and instantly hated the school. We also wasted his physical and mental energy at Middlebury; the drive there sucked, he decided it felt too remote for him, he got negative, and showed poorly. And perhaps our worst mistake was to wear him out at Amherst. We didn't even have to visit to know it wasn't an option on any level, but S's Grandpa seemed to think it was a grand idea and dragged him there. Grandparents must not have a say!

3.  Especially if you live in an area where NESCAC coaches have fewer chances to see your kid in tournament play, carefully measure out your kid's physical and mental resources by spreading your clinics more evenly out over winter, spring, and summer or even prior year. If you pile up too many over the summer before senior year, your kid will get worn out at an unpredetermined moment and suddenly show poorly. And he's had just the one chance. Good thing S hated Tufts, because it was at the very end of July after a loonnggg summer that started with the Region 3 championship back in mid-June... so he blew that one. Just no legs left at all. If you have to travel like us, it's hard to not get compressed in summer because it's near impossible to fly out more than twice for random one-day clinics sprinkled all over February, March, April, and May when your kid is in the middle of a spring season and school. I remember wanting to send him to Bates' clinic last January, but thinking, Seriously? Texas to Lewiston in January? And predictably, a noreaster wiped out travel then. I thought that coach should be a little more strategic in his planning if he wants to widen his scope, but anyway. Now by comparison, we got to F and M and Hamilton in the spring when he was fresh, so S knew early where he stood with the coaches, they submitted prereads on July 1, got answers quickly, and it all was smooth. That saved stress.

4.  Not sure if I can offer advice but more of a head's up: Even if you look carefully at each school's GPA/SAT stats to see how close your kid is to the MEAN scores for a particular school, it's really hard to know what Admissions is going to say. But it helps to at least understand the banding system (A, B, or C) and make an educated guess. Logic told me that with a 4.0 and 29 ACT, S could not possibly be B band for Bowdoin, but coach acted optimistic, so we put our eggs in his basket. I understand these coaches have a hard time guessing, but mainly it's in it for them to always err on the positive side. Admissions' said nothing about S's marks being sub-par; only that they didn't like that S had been to more than one high school. Well geez. Parents sometimes move, and plus he went on a foreign exchange program. So apparently predictability is better for a kid than diverse experiences? What happened to liberal arts. Never know what these schools are going to come out with.

5.  Don't put much stake in legacy. According to "sources," about five years ago Admissions started weighing legacy far less than they used to. Huge donors might be another story, but I really don't know. Geography definitely helped us a bit, but for a C band, it's not going to be a deal-maker. For this reason and because Hamilton is test-score crazy, I should have gone strictly with the ACT averages, guessed C band, and scrapped Hamilton.

6. Closely monitor your kid's communications with coaches to be sure he's understanding a coach's intentions, and keep your radar up for anything funky. You are wiser. In my experience coaches were forthright and pretty clear, but we did have one situation that I'm sure is very rare in NESCAC: a coach who, without seeing your kid play, tells him—yes this actually happened and I heard it with my own ears because it was a phone message—"I'll use a tip on you" when he does not necessarily intend to do so and later retracts. I hate to throw this guy under the bus because he's truly a good guy just finding his way. Even when coaches are being open, the untrained ear of a 17-year-old can easily gloss over the difference between "You're definitely on my list of top recruits" and "you're my top recruit." So just find out exactly what is being said.

So that's the run-down. I guess it's time to jump over to the Centennial board if such a thing exists...

Quote from: PaulNewman on July 24, 2018, 07:45:47 PM

Quote from: EB2319 on July 24, 2018, 06:11:49 PM
Where's the eating popcorn emoticon when you need it?

I can't decide whether to go with some traditional Orville R, moderate-liberal Smartfood Cheddar, or some more Wesleyan-esque Trader Joe's Herbs and Spices.

This is great stuff and hopefully will spiral into a regular blog as the saga unfolds, with the side benefit of some of us (including me) reminding everyone another time or two about the cool, elite places WE and our kids went to college.  I'm in.  The college search was a great, exhilarating time, when, before actual realities and decisions roll in, everything and every place is possible.  Great stuff for those of us who loved making and re-making lists and would love to go through the whole thing again.

So many nuances.  Too Jewish.  Midfield plays the way we like but doesn't need us.  Too rural.  City is great except if its Hartford.  Classes too big but at least mimics Europe.  Better than any strong Academy players that have played at F&M but not even playing Academy and might not even make a good Academy squad.  Could get bored.  Needs the ball but might not get off the bench.  Well, at least will be able to pull the strings for the scout team and use that intuitive decision-making in practices.  One national title coach is a jerk (proven fact apparently) who plays crap soccer.  Colby might have a flake.  The Wesleyan coach is cool but he keeps it real about realistic academic chances, and who wants all that deconstructive chalking in Middletown anyway?  So many schools that aren't good enough even though there's no signal about any suggesting admission.  Live in the Midwest but can only consider what works with Logan Airport.  Rochester has an airport.  In fact, all the UAA schools do.  No consideration of the excellent schools that sound like actual fits....Gettysburg, Dickinson, Denison, DePauw, Centre, Rhodes.

Several people have suggested what to do.  Pursue what you think you like broadly.  Pick some places to visit that want you to visit, and be sure to include at least a couple where you're very confident that admission is not an issue.  Go on said visits, and then decide on small vs big, rural vs city, campus cultures, team cultures, coaches, playing styles, likely playing time at places where you think playing style fits, etc, etc.

That's quite the stand-up routine... whatever the popcorn flavor, I'm throwing it at the screen watching this reel of "facts" which are quite "nuanced" themselves! A few corrections are in order before this commentary is permanently stamped on the collective mind of this board regarding our poor non-superstud:
- "Better than any strong academy players that have ever played at F and M." You mean all one of them? [burn emoji] What I actually said: Better than the incoming freshman. Small nuance...
- "Not even playing academy and might not even make a good squad."  Truth: Played middling academy before, then made squad this year again but turned it down. (You can pick on that decision all you want, but consider driving 25 miles in rush hour straight through a huge city four or five night a week and get home at 11pm... If you survive to apply to college, see if any nescac school thinks you are "well-rounded.")
- "Lives in midwest...."  Fact: Never said that. Guess another region...
"..But can only consider what works with Logan Airport." That's right. Or Philadelphia. Unless you are offering to give him your frequent flyer miles on American Eagle, he's going Southwest, heck, maybe even Spirit.
- "Could get bored." Fine. Son (and you all) have put to rest that silly Mom Concern. As an alum of a nescac school, I have duly warned him, however, that if he is bored, it won't be because of the soccer, it will be due to the lack thereof during a long, miserable winter stuck on a hill outside of New Hartford or Pittsfield or some other exciting place...
- "So many schools aren't good enough..."  Huh? I assure you, they are all more than good enough."... but no signal about any suggesting admission." Sure they are, but I'm not going to tell you which...
- "No consideration of the excellent schools that sound like actual fits....Gettysburg, Dickinson..." These two were and are, but I hadn't brought them into the discussion.

On that note, it's probably time for Mom to spare this board any more of the recruiting "saga." We'll suffer through the madness on the sidelines.

For the record I get that my kid is not superstud. Just don't be mean to poor Mom on some future date if he ends up sitting on a bench!

Quote from: d4_Pace on July 23, 2018, 11:42:42 AM
So based on your comment regarding your son's team it sounds like the NESCAC is the perfect level.  I know throughout the conference their are kid that played all across the spectrum of academy, with some starting on legit top ten academies, but more at the mid tier and lower academies, as well as plenty of kids from top club teams like your sons. In terms of meeting players, I know Tufts always has like 7 or 8 current guys at the clinic so he will definitely have the opportunity to talk with them.  I took official visits to the final schools I was deciding between my senior fall and that is what pushed me to Tufts. I would definitely encourage you to reach out to coaches once you make your final list of schools about taking a visit.  That is the best way to really see what it would be like to play at that school and also what the school itself is like.  You usually follow guys around to a couple classes, eat in the dining hall, sleep in the dorms...etc.

Thanks! Looking back on previous posts, I gather that it is uncertain whether Tufts has a need for midfielders for their '19 class. His chances aside, Tufts would be a different experience from other NESCACs due to its size, and I wonder if you can speak to that from your experience. I can only assume that against Hamilton et al., Tufts doesn't compare when it comes to the small school offerings, which are important to son: small discussion-based classes, professor interaction, academic support, etc. On the other hand, aside from liking skiing, son is a city boy used to city options, not to mention had a year of living in Europe nearly independently his entire 10th grade... and thus the locale of Tufts may suit him better than somewhere remote like Middlebury. Any thoughts?

Quote from: NESCAC11 on July 23, 2018, 01:48:35 PM

Quote from: mom1234 on July 23, 2018, 09:29:37 AM

Quote from: truenorth on July 23, 2018, 08:39:48 AM
mom1234 et. al., I think there have been some helpful comments posted in the wake of your initial inquiry.  Understandably your son is currently looking at his college search through his "soccer lens".  Not that teenage kids are seeking parents' advice, but it is important to try and gently emphasize that soccer--although important and hopefully fun--is only a part of an overall college experience that will include academics, school community, and a social life.  Not to mention the valuable network of friends and career connections that prevail upon graduating.

My older son played for Brown and had a good overall soccer and college experience, but his horizon during his four years of college didn't extend much beyond the soccer team and his roommates (all of whom were teammates).  For a D1 player, the program is year round and fairly all consuming.  He wouldn't trade the overall experience but realizes he missed out on some things at college.

My younger son, who received some D1 recruiting attention, ended up playing for Bowdoin and had a great soccer and overall college experience.  He had a number of friends outside of the team and studied abroad for a semester, something that would be more difficult to do in D1.

Per some earlier comments, beyond the soccer programs themselves, not all the NESCACs are identical with respect to culture and academics.  For example, I chauffeured my son on an interesting recruiting weekend to Wesleyan and Amherst.  We each had a blast on that trip, but those two schools couldn't be much different culturally.  He liked both of them but chose Bowdoin, which felt like a sweet spot for him more in the middle of the progressive/traditional cultural spectrum.

If I had a soccer player looking at NESCACs today, I would encourage him/her to think about the culture of the team and the coach's personality and style...even above the current performance level of the program.  The team culture and the coach's personality are going to have a greater bearing on whether the student athlete has a positive and rewarding athletic experience than simply the Ws and Ls. 

Best of luck to your son during this exciting time of college exploration.

As Mom who invested a lot in his training growing up, I probably get a little caught up in the performance level; it is son who from the start son has been most interested in coach personality, team culture, and a well-rounded college experience, hence the original impetus for seeking insight on this board. He's been able to get a sense of personality, but team culture is harder to read when its not season and there are maybe three actual players hanging around these clinics. On the recruiting timeline, when do these kids get a chance to get on campus and experience the team culture? If the coach wants you on the team, does he invite you to spend a weekend in the fall of senior year or something?

Your comments on the D1 experience are just the reminder I needed to hear. How much of a time commitment was Brown for your son as compared to the one who went to Bowdoin?

I think it's important to break out of the "strictly soccer" mindset if you're looking at D3 and especially NESCAC schools. I love soccer, loved my son's soccer career in the NESCAC and really appreciate this Board's devotion to it, but soccer season in D3 is over in the blink of an eye. Your son played 10x more soccer (matches, tournaments etc) last season than he will in a D3 school year. He will live among and spend lots of time with his teammates, but the soccer is a relatively small part of the experience. And at a NESCAC school (and many other D3 schools) he will be pounded with schoolwork that does not let up for soccer season and requires a full commitment. The weather gets cold quickly and he will realize in no time that there is much more to his college experience than soccer. He should focus on all aspects of the school. He should do it soon since most of these D3 schools are filling their shopping lists with verbal commitments by early in August.
[/quote
Yes! Good thoughts.

Quote from: PaulNewman on July 21, 2018, 11:24:59 AM
D4 Pace, I'm curious as to your opinion (as a former Academy player and experience with a top-tier D3 program) about the idea that U16 and U17 Academy teams would crush the top 15-20 D3 teams in the country.  Maybe it's just me but I find some of the romanticizing of the Academy experience (and level) a little over the top.

I'm also curious as to whether some of these posters just have incredible integrity in terms of "keeping it real" (a la the Chappelle segment) or are oblivious to what they blurt out.  If you hint that you are from some obscure area in the Midwest and are one of the top recruits in the nation drowning in attractive D1 offers with board scores in a certain range with a specific GPA, one might figure that even these shoddy NESCAC coaches might figure out who you are.  And I imagine the entire midfield of a NESCAC squad includes actual people with names, who might even be good friends with the wonderful defenders on said team.

Also curious as to all the lamenting and angst about the horrible level of play in D3, and all the opportunities to go D1 instead, and yet the decisions to focus on D3 anyway.  I know the usual responses about blowing out a knee and going abroad and go where you's still be happy if not playing soccer, but still....some of these alleged super-skilled intuitive studs might not find D1 so appealing and so friendly to "beautiful soccer"....they might not get to play... and there are plenty of places where I'm sure many kids who "choose" D3 would still be plenty happy if they blew out a knee or never got off the bench in D1.....like, for instance, my alma mater, Davidson (a D1 in D3 clothing), Bucknell, Colgate, Holy Cross, the Ivies, etc, etc.  And if you could be a starter at Duke or UCLA or Cal or Stanford or UVA or UNC or Wake Forest, why wouldn't you go there?

So he can play for the love of it and be a bigger fish in a little pond. He'd probably sit on the bench at Wake Forest. He knows he's not "super stud." I offered to send him to Holy Cross or similar to at least find out where he stood with that lot, but he said no.

Finally, re: the topic of a super-stud picking a NESCAC, I'm going to give a big vote to Colby....no school has had such a dramatic rise up the USNWR charts, and it is a beautiful campus, and a place where one could bask in the process of taking a program from the bottom all the way to the top.  Improvements already have been noted, and what a thrill to be a leader of a program who could knock off the usual NESCAC heavyweights and make some NCAA noise.  If not seduced by Williams or Amherst, not really needed at Tufts, and not the kind of kid who has a passion for the slightly more unique vibe of a Wesleyan, then I personally would be all over Colby.

Colby has been the big mystery this year, and the one nescac that has dissed him completely. Timeline: Son reached out in the fall, they watched him play a tournament, they expressed a lot of interest, kept up communication here and there. Then son told Stanton he wasn't sure if his ACTs would be good enough, at which point response was, don't give up quite yet. Then when he got the decent score, he reached out. Radio silence. Reached out again: hey, are you still there? More silence. So he gave up. So we don't know if they saw him play again and changed their minds, or Stanton is a flake, or what. But I think it is very odd that they do not have an ID clinic series posted on their website? They have never sent out clinic-related correspondence of any kind, ever. What is up with that??

Quote from: SoccerMom_5 on July 20, 2018, 11:47:52 PM

Quote from: blooter442 on July 19, 2018, 09:34:24 PM

Quote from: mom1234 on July 19, 2018, 06:02:43 PM
Yes, I meant Serpone! Just got the names mixed up. He coached the recruits exactly as we had heard he coaches his team.

One of my kids thought the same thing.  He had really been leaning towards Amherst academically, but also wanted to play soccer while he was in college.  Ended up not choosing Amherst, and that was one reason. (Also, he didn't think the students at Amherst were as friendly as at the other schools he was considering.)

Quote from: mom1234 on July 19, 2018, 12:48:05 PM
- Weircinski: has been as good on the recruiting side as Murphy. Son has been impressed with his communication. He is at his camp now, and all son has said so far is that the recruits there are no good, but then again by his telling, there have only been a handful of good players in all these clinics combined. In a previous post, someone said Bowdoin "doesn't play pretty." Can someone elaborate on that?

They have been known to sit pretty deep and play direct, although I think it's as much of a function of the players they've had as Wiercinski's philosophy. Then again, maybe that has to do with the "profile" of a typical Bowdoin recruit; Bowdoin has had pretty decent team size but not a ton of trickery or team speed. Then again, with 3 NCAA appearances in 4 years, you can't say it hasn't worked, although they failed to advance past the first weekend of the tournament in that time.

My opinion vis-a-vis Bowdoin isn't always appreciated here, but I understand your position as a Mom, and have watched Bowdoin closely,  so I will mention: Wiercinski seems to stack his talent in the back and so the team tends to sit deep. And their midfield was disastrous this past year, so they often had to play more directly than they had played the year before.
Sounds like your son is a decent  midfielder. Bowdoin needed someone in midfield who  could connect this year.
Bowdoin had 5 All-Conference Players this year which was more than any other NESCAC team had (as well as a couple (2? 3?) All-Region, and one All-American) They were just missing the connecting piece in the middle; their backline mostly had to circumvent the midfield to get the ball forward. So...  Your son might be able to step right in as a First Year.  (Except... Bowdoin lost almost their entire starting defense...)

Hm, interesting. The wrap-up from Bowdoin was this: Although son is a holding mid, Weircinski wants him more for attacking mid or some of both, I think, but not exclusively holding mid. Son said coach cited a reason of putting "taller" guys at defensive mid, which is odd since son is 5'11". There are only two midfielders over that height currently on the team, and they are both graduating. But son is definitely lean and a more technical than physical player. So I don't know that it's exactly "talent" coach is putting at the back, but brawn. We're not sure if this guy values a more brawny style of play, or like you said, maybe he just has had to work with what he's got, and didn't have good midfielders.

Quote from: mom1234 on July 19, 2018, 12:48:05 PM
So far, son hasn't walked away from a clinic thinking, that's the one. He experienced first-hand that the F&M coaches are the "class act" one poster said they were, and if picking a school were only about coaches, he would go with them. I just worry about him playing in that league and getting bored. It's not a good sign that he's a dramatically better player than all this year's incoming freshmen (coach's words). It was his decision forgo D1, but I do think he should try to get a better fit in D3. Where that is, I don't know. Your opinion is appreciated!

As a previous poster said, find the best fit school-wise (and community-wise) and don't solely let soccer drive the decision.

This!!!

If your kids play Academy or a high-level club soccer, you are not going to find the soccer you are looking for in D3.  The NESCAC is as close as it gets, but a quality u16 or 17 Academy team could beat any of these teams without working very hard at all.  There will be quality kids on each team, but they get spread to thin because there aren't enough of them.   And the coaches don't always seem to recognize what they've got, for various reasons, I suppose. 

Assuming he can get in to all of them, I would suggest that your son should pick the school he likes best.  With the exception of my oldest son eliminating Amherst, and the others not even applying there, as a result...  We discussed the schools from the point of view of: if you blew out your knee in the first week of first preseason, and could never play soccer again, which school would you want to spend the next four years at.  They each chose that way; they each played soccer at their chosen school; they each had frustrations at times, with style and level of play, with coaching issues, and other things... But in the end, they have loved the schools they have chosen and they have really enjoyed being part of their teams. 

I know it is hard to convince a kid of this at the end of junior year, but it has been my experience that ... As they get closer to the end and it comes down to the wire on final choices, they begin to show more wisdom, and are more amenable to considering making a pragmatic choice.

Good luck.  I know the stress you are going through.  I have been through it,  also!
In my experience, it all works out okay, and better than you can even imagine when looking at it the summer after 11th grade.  But also in my experience, nothing anyone says makes it feel any better at that point in time.

Best of luck to your student in his college search.  And I hope that you can enjoy watching his u18 year!
[/quote]

Quote from: PaulNewman on July 20, 2018, 04:13:45 PM
Decided to browse after a long absence.  Amazing how quickly social media and the internet can get you worked up.

We will know within the first couple of weeks of season where this kid being recruited goes (in 2019?).  He will dominate the league from the start and I've penciled him in as a D3soccer First Team AA selection.  Bored at F&M?  A school that has made about 5 out of the last 6 Sweet 16s?  Hopkins, Haverford, Dickinson, Gettysburg, et al plus a Camden or Messiah and/or Montclair not good enough.  The Ivies mut be hanging all over this kid.  Kudos to him and the family for holding them off.

BTW, I'm not an Amherst apologist by any means.....but the shot at Serpone from the family of a high school rising senior is just ridiculous.  So, if Amherst is the only NESCAC that gives the kid a tip or admission, he's not going?  Because the national champs from 2 years ago don't play pretty enough soccer.  I can't believe all of these 16 and 17 year olds out there with their fine-grained assessments of how truly sharp D3 midfielders should be playing and where.  It's D3 soccer for heaven's sakes.

This is very entertaining! We haven't been beating off any ivies, perhaps because he never reached out to any of them, but for those who may have watched his team at some tournament or other, they didn't exactly come beating down his door or anything. He got some clinic invitation emails, but no calls. The coach feedback he has gotten is real, but since I am not there at these clinics, I have to assume there is also a bit of cocky male bluster also mixed in... but don't erase him from the First Team selection just yet.

About Amherst: It's not that he wants "pretty" soccer. He wants the dang ball. He wants to control and distribute. If Serpone is bypassing the midfield, then son is not playing the key role he wants to play. I actually wouldn't be surprised of Serpone wasn't even interested in him because he doesn't really fit his agenda, so I doubt he will even get a tip from him.

In fact, this whole school search could be summarized this way: on which team am I going to get the ball?

Quote from: rudy on July 21, 2018, 01:40:45 PM

Quote from: PaulNewman on July 21, 2018, 11:24:59 AM
D4 Pace, I'm curious as to your opinion (as a former Academy player and experience with a top-tier D3 program) about the idea that U16 and U17 Academy teams would crush the top 15-20 D3 teams in the country.  Maybe it's just me but I find some of the romanticizing of the Academy experience (and level) a little over the top.

I'm also curious as to whether some of these posters just have incredible integrity in terms of "keeping it real" (a la the Chappelle segment) or are oblivious to what they blurt out.  If you hint that you are from some obscure area in the Midwest and are one of the top recruits in the nation drowning in attractive D1 offers with board scores in a certain range with a specific GPA, one might figure that even these shoddy NESCAC coaches might figure out who you are.  And I imagine the entire midfield of a NESCAC squad includes actual people with names, who might even be good friends with the wonderful defenders on said team.

Also curious as to all the lamenting and angst about the horrible level of play in D3, and all the opportunities to go D1 instead, and yet the decisions to focus on D3 anyway.  I know the usual responses about blowing out a knee and going abroad and go where you's still be happy if not playing soccer, but still....some of these alleged super-skilled intuitive studs might not find D1 so appealing and so friendly to "beautiful soccer"....they might not get to play... and there are plenty of places where I'm sure many kids who "choose" D3 would still be plenty happy if they blew out a knee or never got off the bench in D1.....like, for instance, my alma mater, Davidson (a D1 in D3 clothing), Bucknell, Colgate, Holy Cross, the Ivies, etc, etc.  And if you could be a starter at Duke or UCLA or Cal or Stanford or UVA or UNC or Wake Forest, why wouldn't you go there?

Finally, re: the topic of a super-stud picking a NESCAC, I'm going to give a big vote to Colby....no school has had such a dramatic rise up the USNWR charts, and it is a beautiful campus, and a place where one could bask in the process of taking a program from the bottom all the way to the top.  Improvements already have been noted, and what a thrill to be a leader of a program who could knock off the usual NESCAC heavyweights and make some NCAA noise.  If not seduced by Williams or Amherst, not really needed at Tufts, and not the kind of kid who has a passion for the slightly more unique vibe of a Wesleyan, then I personally would be all over Colby.

I also question that 16/17 academy teams would crush say the D3  sweet 16 teams. This may be a shock but a lot of those rosters are full of academy players...and some don't start.  It's not like all academy players can play for the top 10 d1 schools.  Let's face it...in D3, D2 and D1 there's plenty of ugly soccer being played. But there are programs at every level that try to play good soccer and some are successful with regards to results.   There are many D1 transfers playing in D3 and it's not like the come in and dominate or are bored with how unchallenged they are. But style of play and team chemistry are important in the decision where to attend.

I would suggest this young man look at Brandeis if he is looking at Nescac. Last 2 final 4s..good academics.

Yes, he has interest from Brandeis. Anyone know about their style and team culture? Honestly I've had a hang-up wondering if the overall culture of the school would be foreign for son; we're not Jewish, non-religious...

Quote from: truenorth on July 23, 2018, 08:39:48 AM
mom1234 et. al., I think there have been some helpful comments posted in the wake of your initial inquiry.  Understandably your son is currently looking at his college search through his "soccer lens".  Not that teenage kids are seeking parents' advice, but it is important to try and gently emphasize that soccer--although important and hopefully fun--is only a part of an overall college experience that will include academics, school community, and a social life.  Not to mention the valuable network of friends and career connections that prevail upon graduating.

My older son played for Brown and had a good overall soccer and college experience, but his horizon during his four years of college didn't extend much beyond the soccer team and his roommates (all of whom were teammates).  For a D1 player, the program is year round and fairly all consuming.  He wouldn't trade the overall experience but realizes he missed out on some things at college.

My younger son, who received some D1 recruiting attention, ended up playing for Bowdoin and had a great soccer and overall college experience.  He had a number of friends outside of the team and studied abroad for a semester, something that would be more difficult to do in D1.

Per some earlier comments, beyond the soccer programs themselves, not all the NESCACs are identical with respect to culture and academics.  For example, I chauffeured my son on an interesting recruiting weekend to Wesleyan and Amherst.  We each had a blast on that trip, but those two schools couldn't be much different culturally.  He liked both of them but chose Bowdoin, which felt like a sweet spot for him more in the middle of the progressive/traditional cultural spectrum.

If I had a soccer player looking at NESCACs today, I would encourage him/her to think about the culture of the team and the coach's personality and style...even above the current performance level of the program.  The team culture and the coach's personality are going to have a greater bearing on whether the student athlete has a positive and rewarding athletic experience than simply the Ws and Ls. 

Best of luck to your son during this exciting time of college exploration.

As Mom who invested a lot in his training growing up, I probably get a little caught up in the performance level; it is son who from the start son has been most interested in coach personality, team culture, and a well-rounded college experience, hence the original impetus for seeking insight on this board. He's been able to get a sense of personality, but team culture is harder to read when its not season and there are maybe three actual players hanging around these clinics. On the recruiting timeline, when do these kids get a chance to get on campus and experience the team culture? If the coach wants you on the team, does he invite you to spend a weekend in the fall of senior year or something?

Your comments on the D1 experience are just the reminder I needed to hear. How much of a time commitment was Brown for your son as compared to the one who went to Bowdoin?

Quote from: d4_Pace on July 21, 2018, 03:52:56 PM
Hey Paul thanks for the shoutout.  I think the first thing to consider is the wide range of skill level at the academy level.  The MLS and a couple other clubs have really pulled away.  When I played academy we scrimmaged the defending JUCO national champions and beat them pretty easily at 18 years old.  So I think if we are talking a u18/19 MLS/top ten academy side they are certainly competing with and probably beating most d3 teams.  But if we are talking about u16 academies... Your run of the mill academy is getting destroyed by a top level d3 team.  Like it wouldn't even be close.  A u16 MLS academy, and when I say MLS I mean NY Red Bull/LA Galaxy/Atlanta United not the Columbus crew academy, would certainly have better technique and guys that will ultimate be better players.  But at 15 years old a lot of those guys would struggle to play against the 21 year olds playing for d3 sides.  So I guess to answer your question succinctly most u16/17 academies are not beating the elite d3 schools and certainly are not doing so easily.

Son and I know first hand that all academies are definitely not created equal; there is a pretty big difference between our local MLS academy (where son would not make the cut or if he did, be at the bottom of the roster) and the club academies (where he did play before; they had a good butt-whooping every time they played against the MLS side, usually 1-5 or even more; I think they managed 2-3 once). In our particular city, MLS academy is full of real MLS-bound talent, the non-academy has a smattering of skilled players. He turned down the non-MLS academy this past year for the non-academy team from the same club, which ended up steamrolling its way to the finals of our USYS Regionals and missed Nationals by a goal, and can and does beat said academy team any day. So the top USYS club teams rival the middle- and low-range academies.

Quote from: blooter442 on July 19, 2018, 02:50:30 PM

Quote from: mom1234 on July 19, 2018, 12:48:05 PM
- Shapiro: He was definitely the full-of-himself guy playing crap soccer that everyone said he would be. Son figured out for himself that Amherst is no place for a quality midfielder. He doesn't care how good a school it is, or whether he'd make the guy's list, he won't have any part of it.

Assuming you meant Serpone? Shapiro is the coach at Tufts, not Amherst, and, in my experience, is not full of himself, or at least not publicly. (Confidence in oneself is one thing; being arrogant is another.) Never met Serpone so I cannot say directly what kind of person he is, but I have been less-than-impressed with some of his histrionics. Personally, I believe some of the distaste towards Amherst/its coaches/style of play (on these boards and elsewhere) is rooted in envy of its success, but given the ubiquity of those claims (and the diverse origins of them) it's hard to say that at least some of the criticism isn't merited.

Yes, I meant Serpone! Just got the names mixed up. He coached the recruits exactly as we had heard he coaches his team.

Quote from: mom1234 on July 19, 2018, 12:48:05 PM
- Weircinski: has been as good on the recruiting side as Murphy. Son has been impressed with his communication. He is at his camp now, and all son has said so far is that the recruits there are no good, but then again by his telling, there have only been a handful of good players in all these clinics combined. In a previous post, someone said Bowdoin "doesn't play pretty." Can someone elaborate on that?

They have been known to sit pretty deep and play direct, although I think it's as much of a function of the players they've had as Wiercinski's philosophy. Then again, maybe that has to do with the "profile" of a typical Bowdoin recruit; Bowdoin has had pretty decent team size but not a ton of trickery or team speed. Then again, with 3 NCAA appearances in 4 years, you can't say it hasn't worked, although they failed to advance past the first weekend of the tournament in that time.

By "team size" I expect you mean big dudes, not size of the roster.

Quote from: mom1234 on July 19, 2018, 12:48:05 PM
- Tufts: Clinic isn't until the end of July, so we'll see. I have high hopes, though. From previous posts, it sounds like they play as good a game as can be found in nescac... any comments? Son added this school to his list in the 11th hour, though, so he hasn't gotten a sense of the coach.

I've watched Tufts for about five years now. They do play a possession style overall, but can play direct when they need to. They kept it on the ground en route to the 2014 title, but were a lot more direct when they won two years later. Last year seemed to be somewhere in the middle. I think their success in recent years has largely been down to adaptability and balance — they have a very deep team that can win games in a number of different ways. As for Shapiro, I have always seen him conduct himself well, and he seems very well-respected by both his players and opponents. Don't think you could go wrong with Tufts.

Quote from: mom1234 on July 19, 2018, 12:48:05 PM
So far, son hasn't walked away from a clinic thinking, that's the one. He experienced first-hand that the F&M coaches are the "class act" one poster said they were, and if picking a school were only about coaches, he would go with them. I just worry about him playing in that league and getting bored. It's not a good sign that he's a dramatically better player than all this year's incoming freshmen (coach's words). It was his decision forgo D1, but I do think he should try to get a better fit in D3. Where that is, I don't know. Your opinion is appreciated!

I certainly don't think he would "get bored" in the Centennial Conference. F&M has been the best team in the conference the past five or so years, and seems to do well year-in, year-out (even last year in an uninspired season they still managed to make NCAAs), but that's not to say the conference is not competitive — you've got Dickinson, Haverford, and Johns Hopkins all fully capable of dislodging the Diplomats atop the conference. Moreover, just because he would be the best recruit in his class doesn't mean he's going to score 200 goals and carry the team on his back. Of course, I'm using hyperbole, but I guess my point is that I don't think he would find it "easy" or "boring" playing in F&M's conference.

As a previous poster said, find the best fit school-wise (and community-wise) and don't solely let soccer drive the decision. Whether that means F&M or not is another matter, but — while fully acknowledging that the NESCAC would be more competitive — I don't think you should be quite as concerned about a lack of challenge in the Centennial Conference. And if F&M is a good enough fit and he feels home at there, I think he'd be making a great decision.

Point taken. It does seem like for the moment son is letting soccer drive the decision since most of his campus time is limited to the field. Soccer aside, to him these schools are so similar, and he thinks he'd be pretty happy at just about any of them.

Quote from: lumbercat on July 12, 2018, 02:50:11 PM
I'm no soccer guy but they are cleaning house at Bates. The Head football coach recently "left" at a very bad time and they had to scramble to replace him- like Flaherty I think he was pushed out.

My personal speculation is both coaching situations may have been similar. The AD wanted to make these coaching changes but the administration was unwilling to buy out the remainder of coaching contracts. I believe the Football coach intended to play out the final year of his contract but evidently found a lame duck situation for his final year untenable and chose to leave.

Or, possibly there was some unsuccessful financial negotiation and the coach walked.....speculation only.
Looks to me like the Soccer situation was similar.

Hoping the college will make the right financial commitment to both programs but that remains to be seen.

As I said, I'm not a soccer guy but you folks in the Soccer community will know the level of the commitment Bates has made by the resume and reputation of the new guy despite the less than ideal time frame.

For what it's worth I don't know Flaherty at all but have heard rumblings about him and certain eccentricities on more than one different occasions in the past few years. All told they wanted him gone.

I'll get off the Soccer board and leave it to those who know but I will leave with one final comment for the record. I believe Bates at some point in the past 10 or 15 years did have a guy drafted and/or who played in the prevailing pro Soccer league at that time.

I thought I would add the perspective of someone currently in the middle of the pre-senior year recruiting season and who was in-process with Flaherty. My son can attest that the assistant coach, who were we told might be taking over the head coach spot, hasn't shown any improvement on Flaherty's lackadaisical recruiting abilities. And it's not because my kid stinks; he's been to enough nescac recruiting clinics by now to have learned that he is just about as a high level a player as any nescac coach can hope to have in any given year. Not saying that boastfully, but merely to point out how pathetic Bates' recruiting has been: Flaherty screwed up the day appointment when we showed up after traveling halfway across the country, dropped the ball on communication thereafter while busy leaving or getting fired, then this assistant coach did no direct follow-up with my son by way of introduction as the torch was passed, just impersonal camp solicitation emails with outdated information. My son has basically lost all confidence and scratched Bates off the list.

On the positive side, once son's grades and scores ended up pretty high and he got feedback from coaches that he's the kind of player they would use a "tip" for, it opened up a lot more of nescac than I had thought. Son isn't splitting hairs on the schools' academics which to him are all outstanding; the search is on for a good coach who actually tries to get his players to play a quality game. From the clinics he has been to so far, here is what he has discovered so far this summer. Anything to add, anyone?

- Murphy: His intensity really showed. Every second of that clinic was scheduled down to the second. Then, although he was a joke-around kind of guy, he was overly critical and an extreme micromanager. If you scored a goal, somehow he still managed to say you should have shot with the other foot or done xyz differently. My son feels like that guy constantly in his ear is going to shut down his intuitive decision-making process and creativity.

- Elias: Hard to read, very serious, maybe to the point of no fun. Son didn't get a chance to get to know him as he only went for one day. Still don't know much. Anyone have more to add?

- Shapiro: He was definitely the full-of-himself guy playing crap soccer that everyone said he would be. Son figured out for himself that Amherst is no place for a quality midfielder. He doesn't care how good a school it is, or whether he'd make the guy's list, he won't have any part of it.

- Nizzi: very disarming, easy-going guy. Not sure about what it's like to play for him after a one-day clinic. Very forthright; didn't hide anything to parents about the ins and outs of athlete admissions. My personal opinion is that this would be a good bet.

- Weircinski: has been as good on the recruiting side as Murphy. Son has been impressed with his communication. He is at his camp now, and all son has said so far is that the recruits there are no good, but then again by his telling, there have only been a handful of good players in all these clinics combined. In a previous post, someone said Bowdoin "doesn't play pretty." Can someone elaborate on that?

- Tufts: Clinic isn't until the end of July, so we'll see. I have high hopes, though. From previous posts, it sounds like they play as good a game as can be found in nescac... any comments? Son added this school to his list in the 11th hour, though, so he hasn't gotten a sense of the coach.

So far, son hasn't walked away from a clinic thinking, that's the one. He experienced first-hand that the F&M coaches are the "class act" one poster said they were, and if picking a school were only about coaches, he would go with them. I just worry about him playing in that league and getting bored. It's not a good sign that he's a dramatically better player than all this year's incoming freshmen (coach's words). It was his decision forgo D1, but I do think he should try to get a better fit in D3. Where that is, I don't know. Your opinion is appreciated!

Thank you all! Sorry I have no technical skills. Yes, the possibility of blowing his knee out is exactly what has led us to this place. If it were just about soccer level, he'd be looking at D1s and D2s. But he's a small school-- and a liberal arts-- kind of guy. He's passionate about soccer, but doesn't want some jerky coach dictating his college experience and finding out he hates the school anyway. He also wants something drivable to family near Boston. Hope my strategy is correct: help him choose schools that fit him in other ways besides soccer but where a. I know he'd be a "catch" soccer wise so he's more likely to get squeezed in, and b. there is flexibility on testing. c. coach is a good guy

After hearing you all, I think we're adding Brandeis and Trinity to the list of schools to at least look at. OWU... not drivable to Boston. Maybe Vassar, but that might be tough.

BTW just heard Flaherty got threatened to get booted if he doesn't shape things up.