Quote from: faunch on March 03, 2020, 10:42:29 PM

Quote from: SUMMIT? on March 03, 2020, 04:32:11 PM
MIAC awards are out:  https://www.miacathletics.com/sports/mbkb/2019-20/releases/20200228ilrbnr

Before any Johnnie starts carping that "SJ2 was 2-1 vs UST"--- the awards are for regular season only so the co-champs split 1-1. Also, if a coach got robbed, it was Coach Fano for the incredible turnaround at SMU. I would thought Fano would be unanimous "no-brainer" choice

Nice to see the coaches recognize the defensive play of Ryan Lindberg.  I was surprised to see Raheem Anthony not get at lest Honorable mention All-MIAC. I think the co-POY winners was a judicious decision-- impossible to rank one of them above the other IMO.

Who votes for these awards? Do they have axe to grind w the St. Mary's coach? 

Unpopular opinion - I enjoy St Marys being competitive as much as anyone, but coach of the year? I like Coach Fano and what he has done but they were 10-10 in the conference 14-13 overall. I feel it would be patronizing to award someone just because their historically bad program was .500 this year. This has been one of Tauers best coaching years by far.

I'm not a huge fan of the Olaf hate on this board. Let's not forget this decision is being made by the President and not the student athletes. St Olaf has had great success recently in sports like mens basketball, swimming, track, cross country, etc. and I'm sure these students enjoy competition and a challenge as much as anyone at other athletic programs. It's truly a shame the students will bear the brunt of this decision while the president can run and hide.

Quote from: Reverend MIAC, PhD on May 11, 2019, 04:54:35 PM
I get a kick out of the most recent Star Tribune article's comments section. Most commenters seem supportive of UST, but those who aren't tend to talk about enrollments and academic requirements. They say that UST is too large and doesn't focus on recruiting for academic excellence. UST supporters quickly counter by talking about how enrollment numbers don't matter at the college level because coaches aren't recruiting from the student body, and then cite all sorts of things meant to show UST's academic prowess, most notably employment rates and starting salaries after college.

Everyone seems to be missing the point. STO et al. don't have a problem with UST's enrollment just because it provides a larger pool of potential recruits.  They have a problem because the larger enrollment allows UST to match and/or supersede them athletically AND academically, which is its current trajectory.

Let's compare STO and UST. There's currently a two-point difference between the median ACTs at STO and UST. STO has roughly 3K undergraduates; 1.5K achieved a 29 or better on the ACT. UST has roughly 6K undergraduates; roughly 1.5K achieved a 29 or better on the ACT. In other words, these two schools have the same number of academically potent students on campus.

That being said, UST's larger enrollment affords it the opportunity to recruit students gifted in other ways (athletics) without greatly impacting its overall academic selectivity. STO's smaller enrollment offers far less leeway, and I don't see it being able and/or wanting to expand student numbers anytime soon. Places like STO with smaller enrollments can't accept many athletes with lower ACT scores without significantly diminishing their overall selectivity. Because of the larger enrollment, places like UST can recruit a sufficient number of less academically potent athletes and still remain highly selective.

There's nothing wrong with the way UST is positioned; nor is there a problem with it recruiting stellar athletes with less that optimal academic credentials. Doing so doesn't mean that it's less academic either. All the Ivy League schools do the same thing, as their athletes tend to have far lower academic qualifications than the other students on campus. STO et al. have a problem with UST because they don't have the same advantages.

Reworded - Because St Thomas is much bigger than other schools, it can recruit low-academic athletes that the rest of the MIAC can't because they can't get accepted into the rest of the MIAC schools. Most MIAC schools can't afford to expand, and those that can would destroy their small and selective approach that has become their (highly successful) calling card. The issue here isn't the rest of the MIAC failing to be as "great" of institutions as St Thomas, its that St Thomas has grown out of the league and is using this growth to beat the other schools into submission by eliminating the academic requirements most D3 private schools have.

Side note, spare me the sympathy for the death of the Tommie-Johnnie game, which only increases media coverage for the two schools and not the league as a whole, and is a major influx of cash that other D3 schools will never have. If you think it's fair that St Thomas and St Johns get to play annually at places like Target Field, and think that this isn't a ridiculously unfair recruiting advantage, than you probably went to either St Thomas or St Johns.

I have enjoyed this board lumping Bethel into the top three athletic schools because they have good football. I would say Gustavus is overall much stronger athletically. Regardless, grouping Bethel with the Tommies and the Johnnies is laughable.

Quote from: miac952 on April 10, 2019, 07:10:34 PM

Quote from: Miacman4040 on April 10, 2019, 05:04:34 PM

Quote from: hazzben on April 10, 2019, 01:44:48 PM

But again, that doesn't mean it's not something Anderson isn't pushing - Olaf loves viewing itself as an academic elite.

They don't just believe it, they actually are an elite academic school, especially compared to other MIAC schools not named Carleton and Mac. STO's president is a fool but he is not bluffing on the academic merits of his school. These weak, timid, pathetic "Coalition of Losers" aren't losing in life after Division 3 football I can assure you that.

The Oles have labeled themselves as academic elite and tried to group in with Mac and Carleton, but there is a gap between those two and St Olaf. UST & Gustavus are the next tier and just as close to St Olaf as St Olaf is to the top two, based on ACT & GPA. Feel free to argue those metrics if you want but it's what is most accessible to uniformly measure enrolled classes. St Olaf has done some nice marketing to throw themselves in with Carleton and Mac.

Carleton - ACT 31-34 - GPA 3.8
Mac - ACT 29-32 - GPA - 3.8
St Olaf - ACT 25-31 - GPA - 3.7
St Thomas - ACT 24-29 GPA - 3.6
Gustavus - ACT 24-30 GPA - 3.6

This may be true. St Olaf has a 36% acceptance rate, St Thomas has an 85% acceptance rate, Gustavus is 67%. Good marketing or not, St Olaf is seen as prestigious, and St Thomas/Gustavus are not as much. Additionally, my original post didn't claim they were light years ahead of the next best in the MIAC, just that they were better off academically than the rest, which is true. I think we can all agree that those 5 schools are great academic institutions based off those numbers. Especially that top one 

Quote from: OzJohnnie on April 10, 2019, 05:42:39 PM

Quote from: Miacman4040 on April 10, 2019, 05:04:34 PM

Quote from: hazzben on April 10, 2019, 01:44:48 PM

But again, that doesn't mean it's not something Anderson isn't pushing - Olaf loves viewing itself as an academic elite.

They don't just believe it, they actually are an elite academic school, especially compared to other MIAC schools not named Carleton and Mac. STO's president is a fool but he is not bluffing on the academic merits of his school. These weak, timid, pathetic "Coalition of Losers" aren't losing in life after Division 3 football I can assure you that.

They may claim that, but the evidence in regards to the football team certainly doesn't support that claim.

https://gojohnnies.com/news/2019/4/10/football-sju-leads-the-way-with-20-named-to-nffs-hampshire-honor-society.aspx

QuoteCOLLEGEVILLE, Minn. – Saint John's University led all divisions of college football with 20 student-athletes named to the 2019 National Football Foundation & College Football Hall of Fame Hampshire Honor Society on Wednesday, April 10...

SJU is one of 29 college football programs that have had at least one honoree in all 13 years of the NFF Hampshire Honor Society. The 20 honorees surpassed the Johnnies' previous high of 18 in 2017.

Ah yes, the ultimate measure of a school's academic achievement, the NFF Hampshire Honor Society. UM-Crookston has 7 honorees and Yale has 2 on this list. Seems like a pretty accurate representation of a school's academic prowess. 

Quote from: hazzben on April 10, 2019, 01:44:48 PM

But again, that doesn't mean it's not something Anderson isn't pushing - Olaf loves viewing itself as an academic elite.

They don't just believe it, they actually are an elite academic school, especially compared to other MIAC schools not named Carleton and Mac. STO's president is a fool but he is not bluffing on the academic merits of his school. These weak, timid, pathetic "Coalition of Losers" aren't losing in life after Division 3 football I can assure you that.

Quote from: miacmaniac on April 08, 2019, 05:21:12 PM

Quote from: Miacman4040 on April 08, 2019, 04:44:44 PM
However, if St Thomas envisions moving out of D3, now is the time to do so.

UST's core values totally reflect those of Division III --- they have always been in sync with the philosophy and spirit of Division III.  I guess some schools' administrators are willing (eager?) to cut off their nose to move up one slot in the football standings.  Maybe if some schools' coaches recruited football-sized football players (not 5'10, 165 lb d-linemen), they wouldn't get hammered as badly as they do by the top 4-45 teams in the league. Most of the teams on the "0" end of those blow outs have been on that end for decades

And lest we forget, they are wanting to eject the THIRD PLACE team-- what do they have planned for the first & second place finishers? tar & feather?  The sheer cowardice & pettiness of it just reeks.  And the egg on the MIAC's collective & competitive face nationally will hang there for a long, long time.

I only meant it would be a convenient time for them to leave the MIAC on their own terms instead of getting booted, I wasn't insinuating that they don't belong in D3. Relax.

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on April 08, 2019, 02:27:09 PM

Quote from: txg on April 07, 2019, 09:36:21 PM
I could be wrong, but I think this whole thing could have been avoided if the football coach didn't go out of his way to humiliate a bunch of 19- and 20-year-olds, I guess because his assistant coach took a head coaching job?  I think it is entirely football driven.  It's not like St. Thomas dominating in multiple sports is a new phenomenon.

Huh ... everyone does realize St. Thomas was NOT the only team to defeat those opponents by basically the same scores, right? And with what facts can you show that indicate the "coach went out of his way to humiliate a bunch of 19- and 20-year olds?" His assistant coach is your conjecture?

Just FYI - there are enough actual facts to prove otherwise. That UST took the foot off the gas pedal. A final score does NOT reveal how a game was actually played - or better WHO played in it and for how long.

I am doing my best not to lose my mind and really say what I want ... but sufficite to say: some people have their priorities completely screwed up and can't look at their own homes and understand why they are in the situation they are in.

What bothers me the most is how the presidents of the schools will most likely make this decision without listening to their coaches and ADs. I guarantee not one MIAC basketball coach, player, or fan base wants St Thomas out of the league despite their hatred for the Yankees of Minnesota. Rivalries would get destroyed, national relevance would disappear at a time when the MIAC was beginning to see more of it, competition would fall, and a historic conference would weaken. MIAC basketball programs are very old and very proud (Especially Hamline) and it would be a shame to see that history tainted by such a short-sighted decision.

However, if St Thomas envisions moving out of D3, now is the time to do so.

Quote from: wm4 on April 08, 2019, 02:15:55 PM

Quote from: Miacman4040 on April 08, 2019, 01:19:38 PM
You never responded to my point other than to shift blame to someone else. Are you okay with beating a team 97-0? Do you think this is good for the student athletes on the other side?

I don't think really anyone connected w/ UST was particular proud of that score.  On the field, it was a severe mismatch and probably should have ended in the 64-0 range (the score at half).  An extra 33 points proved nothing.  You have to also factor in the backstory of Caruso vs. Killian and several others who were on UST's staff but switched (many were on the evil empire's staff for the famous behind the back pass).  I'm not saying it was right or wrong, but it was a factor.  The outcome of that game was *all* on Caruso.  Trust me, Coach Killian knew what he was in for that day. 

Also, UST could only dress 55 or 58 or a road game, so they really didn't go any deeper than second team.  UST's second team is still way better than SO's first or second team.  Traveling roster size has been discussed before as a way to limit blowouts by road teams.  It's why the average margin of victory by UST and SJU over the Coalition of Losers (USTBench) has grown so wide in recent years. 

And you know what?  St Olaf got better as a team, overall.  2-8 in 2016, 4-6 in 2017 and 5-5 last year.  That's pretty damn respectable.  Killian is an excellent coach and the program is headed in the right direction.  If the SO President is still salty over a game from 2 seasons ago, he needs to get over it.

I agree, these are some very good points. I for one was not aware of the travel size limitations. Clearly it had the reverse impact that was hoped for. I agree that the STO president needs to suck it up and realize his athletic programs are not all that bad. I think he is a bit of a stooge but I think something else has to have happened that set him off. You would think no rational president would hold a petty grudge from years ago and then oust a school from their league, but then again who knows

Quote from: miac952 on April 08, 2019, 01:56:44 PM

Quote from: Miacman4040 on April 08, 2019, 01:04:33 PM
Well it seems as if our disagreement is the crux of the split in the conference. This debate appears to be about whether schools should emphasize athletics or academics. By the way, I can't imagine there being enough votes to kick St Thomas out, and i do hope they stay. I am just surprised by the number of people who see no issue in a school winning 97-0 while blitzing and running deep routes up 90 on a school's homecoming. I agree that schools should want to be competitive and not run from a challenge, but I also feel absolutely no empathy for the evil empire on Summit Ave, especially their classless football staff. There is a reason the Tommies might get voted out and not the Johnnies, even though St Johns has historically been the powerhouse. I am fine letting St Thomas reap what they've apparently sown.

Was this the same classless staff that is at St Olaf now? Killian had full reign calling plays and personnel for UST in many of the games you are complaining about. I guess he's ok now though, because he's on your side.

Im not an Ole fan.
The difference in the St Olaf-Carleton blowout and the St Thomas blowout is that the Tommie blowouts have happened for years now, as opposed to that Olaf example which was one occurrence in 2007. Again, I support schools putting money into athletics to get better, but there is nothing that will make me feel sorry for St Thomas. If 9 schools vote them out it is more than sour grapes. Again, no one hates St Johns to this level. Maybe St Thomas isn't the innocent catholic school boys you Tommie supporters make them out to be.

You never responded to my point other than to shift blame to someone else. Are you okay with beating a team 97-0? Do you think this is good for the student athletes on the other side?

Well it seems as if our disagreement is the crux of the split in the conference. This debate appears to be about whether schools should emphasize athletics or academics. By the way, I can't imagine there being enough votes to kick St Thomas out, and i do hope they stay. I am just surprised by the number of people who see no issue in a school winning 97-0 while blitzing and running deep routes up 90 on a school's homecoming. I agree that schools should want to be competitive and not run from a challenge, but I also feel absolutely no empathy for the evil empire on Summit Ave, especially their classless football staff. There is a reason the Tommies might get voted out and not the Johnnies, even though St Johns has historically been the powerhouse. I am fine letting St Thomas reap what they've apparently sown.

Quote from: wm4 on April 07, 2019, 10:20:38 PM

Quote from: OzJohnnie on April 07, 2019, 07:53:11 PM
After all, UST has done extremely well in baseball and basketball for a long, long time.  No one threatened to kick them out for that success.  But I don't think there were any timeouts getting called at the end of a basketball blowout to try a buzzer-beating three-point attempt under game conditions.  I suspect it may be behaviour like that on the football field that has caused some in the conference to say, "We don't have to put up with this s***."

You know who else essentially said that Oz, circa 2008?  UST.  They hired Caruso, they committed to facilities, they raised a bunch of money, they engaged alumni, they busted their a** on the recruiting trail, and got results.  The rest of the MIAC?  Several schools snoozed thru the last 10 years, and here they are. 

If UST can do it, several other MIAC schools can do it too.

This is just plainly incorrect. To say that the reason the bottom dwellers are bad is because they don't try is misrepresenting the situation. A school like Carleton can never become an athletic powerhouse for many reasons. It is a very expensive school (60+ k) and they do not lower their academic standards (which are extremely high) to win a few more football games like St Thomas. It is much easier to turn around a struggling program at a premier University in the heart of the metro, with a massive student body, low academic requirements, large scholarships, and history of success than it is to recruit 80 quality players to a school like Carleton.

With that said, it has been this way for sometime, as schools like Carleton have accepted the structural disadvantages that will never make them a powerhouse. The change has apparently come after losing 80-0 every time they play St Thomas. You seem to want schools with no realistic chance to out-recruit UST to be happy getting embarrassed (behind the back trick play, anyone?) year in and year out. Clearly St Thomas does not share any institutional similarities or ambitions as the rest of the league and it is time for them to play schools with that same passion to emphasize the "athlete" in student athlete.

Ive seen one with my own eyes. My friend's son was offered one. It isn't a full scholarship but it was 90 something percent tuition for showing "great leadership" in high school and that St Thomas wants leaders like you. It was very suspect.