Quote from: PaulNewman on November 30, 2023, 10:20:10 AM
Southside, I don't want to believe what I like. What I'd like is data...and you're still being quite vague. If you're putting Kenyon behavior on the level of Amherst I'd like to know more about that.  And if it's true or even close to true I want it stopped. I've seen pretty vigorous jawing from JCU and a few scuffles, perhaps including at end of Mary Wash game. Would never occur to me to talk about Amherst and JCU in the same sentence.

Also, if as bad as you suggest, I wonder why we're only hearing about it now and why you've let this fester for well over a year. We also have not seen a flurry of similar critiques over the years. Strange.

Data? Lol. I told you what transpired. Now I have to explain why I didn't post about something over a year ago? If you continue to deflect hard enough your Owls might actually come out clean on the other end! That coach is gone, and many of those players are gone. Nothing to be done at this point and that wasn't the intention of my original post (sportsmanship being an important component of a 'great' team). Enjoy your offseason, we've beat this one to death already.

Sorry for hijacking the Final Four threads, please carry on. Good luck to all 3 teams this weekend!

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 29, 2023, 10:54:41 PM
Southside, I understand the reluctance to be more specific, but it makes it hard to assess if behavior is egregious without details.  You said players and coaches.  Don't know if you also meant fans, but either way it's hard to know if whatever sparked you was truly out of the norm or a reflection of what we often see between big rivals where there is some history/bad blood.  I've only seen matches with JCU by video but from what I've observed and heard about Kenyon vs JCU are chippy matches and I would have guessed with JCU being the chippier of the two.  I think of JCU as being very physical (not dirty) with a vibe of "you're about to go through 90 minutes of hell playing us."  That's a compliment.
Makes sense to me that among players and fans there could be some occasional ugliness, especially from the perspective of whoever is on the losing end in a given year.  They clearly don't like each other.  You don't like Kenyon, and I don't like JCU.  That all seems pretty normal to me within reason.  We are talking about the top two programs in Region VII since 2015ish.

As for Tufts, I've been to several of their games in person, against, like, Amherst, and I'd be shocked if what you and the other guy experienced exceeds what I've seen at Tufts or have observed when playing OWU or Denison or CMU.  If we're gonna slam a team and leave a deeply negative impression on a public board, especially based to a significant degree on a singular hearsay report, seems like we should know exactly what we're talking about.

As for Brown, I'm no insider, but I haven't gotten any sense that he was pushed out at all.  Imo he gave everything he had to win a national title and he just couldn't quite get there.  I think he was exhausted.  Was he often on the dislike side of a dislike/like meter?  I would guess he was.  He no doubt is not for everybody, but he did his job in the sense of being singularly focused on getting to Final Fours and a title for the school.  He also put Kenyon on the national map and at the forefront of Region VII, and kept them there where before the gap between OWU and programs like Kenyon, JCU, CWRU, etc was large.  Where teams like Kenyon and JCU are now relative to OWU would have been nearly unimaginable 12-15 years ago.

Paul, the antics were on the sidelines after the game had ended. Taunts in the handshake line, childish chants afterwards. One of your coaches was also involved shoving a JCU player. Similar incidents at other games were reported by the other parent I had mentioned. Nothing involving parents or fans. If you feel this is 'normal' and 'just part of a rivalry' then you and I have different opinions of what sportsmanship entails. There was none of this after JCU won back in September, they kept everything on the field and were gracious winners afterwards... the way it's supposed to be handled.

You can believe what you'd like, but I know what I saw / heard (in-person, not over video) and would put it right up there with some of the things Amherst tends to be accused of on the board. And, again, my two cents. We all have different levels of what we find acceptable.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 29, 2023, 06:43:42 PM

Quote from: southsidejet on November 29, 2023, 11:20:44 AM

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 23, 2023, 10:56:14 PM
I thought it was a 50/50 deal with Amherst, but I thought Midd was going to get it done...exactly as I felt a few times with Kenyon, including last year after beating Calvin and W&L (7-1 on aggregate) back to back and only needing to get by Williams at home.  That Kenyon team last year was really, really good...like "best Kenyon team ever" and national title good...but unfortunately they just didn't get to what clearly seemed in reach.  It's a testament to how good Middlebury was to presume without any doubt that they are experiencing massive disappointment.

There is more to being the 'best X team ever' than just winning games. How your players & coaches carry themselves before, during, and after games are part of the equation. Kenyon might have had some skill last year, but they didn't have the other 'stuff'. I know of a son of a Kenyon alum who ended up playing for Tufts this year (his freshman year) because his father was appalled at how the Kenyon soccer program carried itself in seasons prior. I'm sure we can say similar things about Amherst in recent years. They may have enough skill to win the title, but I would never consider a program like that 'the best ever' regardless of the results on the field. There is so much more to this sport (like many others) than simply putting the ball into the back of the net, or preventing it from happening. My two cents.

Obviously I could be wrong, southsidejet, but this felt a little random and opportunistic, like you've been holding on to irritation about Kenyon for a while and finally found what you thought was a nice avenue for expressing it.  In any case, a very interesting post.

First, I'm sure your friend is pleased that you brought him into the discussion.  Is that person the primary source of your take, or have you had your own observations?  What exactly did the parent hear or observe that was so noxious?  When you say Kenyon didn't have "the stuff" last year, what exactly is "the stuff"?  Kenyon was 19-1-1 heading into the Elite 8 game, so yes, a lot of winning and talent.  Four AAs, swept most of the top conference awards, and that doesn't account for two of the players who were on that team who won the top awards in NCAC and may be AAs this year.  You tell me how many teams would have beaten Calvin and W&L back to back.  So what was their downfall?  Please be as specific as you can about weaknesses and transgressions.  How has Kenyon "carried itself"?  You also said your friend's opinion was based on being appalled by prior years, so not exactly sure how that translates to last year's edition.

Let's temporarily agree that Kenyon is bereft of character and no parent should want to send a kid there.  What does that have to do with saying last year's team was in the running for "best Kenyon team ever"?  That statement would only apply in comparison to all of the Kenyon teams over the years....as there were no claims about "best ever" in comparison to any other programs around the country or regarding D3 in general. 

Putting Kenyon in the same category with Amherst seems a little much, given that the concerns about Amherst have been steady and constant, and in sync across dozens of posters linked to a multitude of schools all across the country just on this site for more than a decade.  Until your post, which is quite vague with no details, over the past 10 years I only recall two swipes at Kenyon on the behavior measure (as a program and not just an individual player), and both were made by one person immediately after Kenyon lost to Messiah in 2013 and 2021...and the swipes were just that Kenyon was too physical.  I've never seen a claim about Kenyon's behavior and character writ large, unless you're only referring to some not finding Coach Brown warm and fuzzy.  But in all seriousness, I'd like to know, and if there are legit complaints about Kenyon's behavior I also would like Coach Wall to know so that he can assess if anything needs to be addressed.  I am very willing to be critical (and have been) of my preferred school/team, and if there are issues that need to be addressed I am all for them coming into the light of day.  I'm serious.  Give us some details.

The comparison with Tufts also was interesting, as Tufts and Kenyon, while both great schools, are not really overlap schools.  Tufts is more like the UAAs and so someone who has Kenyon on their prospective list is more likely to also have Midd, Colby, Bates, Hamilton, Conn, etc among the NESCAC group rather than Tufts.  So maybe the kid (and his parents) just really liked and preferred Tufts...unless you're saying the kid wanted to go to Kenyon but didn't because the family was so exposed to the Kenyon toxicity.  On second read (see bold italics above in your post) you did say he went to Tufts BECAUSE of the father being appalled by the Kenyon soccer program, which would suggest he otherwise would have matriculated at Kenyon. 

As an aside, can you provide some color on JCU's late season struggles?  Why do you OAC folks prefer to talk about a team that bothers you so much instead of providing content about all the really good OAC programs?  I've talked up your schools way more than you guys have.  I was convinced that JCU was a top-tier serious contender, probably on par with a Middlebury.  Injuries?  Just not quite as good as we thought?  To come full circle, I truly thought JCU with a very senior-laden, experienced squad with very talented additions was going to be very similar to last year's Kenyon team.

Paul, I'll try to answer you questions:

Not really random, something between all of the earlier Amherst posts and then your post compelled me to respond. Let's just say a button was pushed. I'm a big believer of sportsmanship & maturity in college sports being just as important as wins. I attended last year's game in University Hts. and was shocked at how your players & coaches carried on after the game was over. There's something to say about winning with class, and this was pretty much the opposite. I didn't post about it when it happened, nor after the JCU win in Gambier this past fall. But, like I said, a button was pushed when I read 'best team ever' about that group.

Regarding the Kenyon alum who's son passed on Kenyon... not a friend but someone who approached me this season and volunteered his insight on multiple Kenyon games they had attended last year while his son was considering playing for them. He witnessed similar incidents at multiple games before they decided to pass. Perhaps this is why that head coach was no longer employed after such a great season?

If you read some of my posts from 4 years ago I DID give props to both your team's and OWU's style of play. I've played, coached, and watched thousands of games and am a bit of a futbol snob. College soccer rarely does it for me, too much kick ball & physicality, not enough 'beautiful game'. But those two squads could move the ball around and were enjoyable to watch.

I'll refrain from commenting on JCU's season, those boys gave it everything they had down the stretch. Suffice to say, outside of the second round loss to Mary Washington, injuries weren't an issue. 

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 23, 2023, 10:56:14 PM
I thought it was a 50/50 deal with Amherst, but I thought Midd was going to get it done...exactly as I felt a few times with Kenyon, including last year after beating Calvin and W&L (7-1 on aggregate) back to back and only needing to get by Williams at home.  That Kenyon team last year was really, really good...like "best Kenyon team ever" and national title good...but unfortunately they just didn't get to what clearly seemed in reach.  It's a testament to how good Middlebury was to presume without any doubt that they are experiencing massive disappointment.

There is more to being the 'best X team ever' than just winning games. How your players & coaches carry themselves before, during, and after games are part of the equation. Kenyon might have had some skill last year, but they didn't have the other 'stuff'. I know of a son of a Kenyon alum who ended up playing for Tufts this year (his freshman year) because his father was appalled at how the Kenyon soccer program carried itself in seasons prior. I'm sure we can say similar things about Amherst in recent years. They may have enough skill to win the title, but I would never consider a program like that 'the best ever' regardless of the results on the field. There is so much more to this sport (like many others) than simply putting the ball into the back of the net, or preventing it from happening. My two cents.

Shoutout this morning to the Blue Streaks of John Carroll, who left it all on the field yesterday in a highly contested match at a very hostile Battleground. UMW's attacking side is easily one of the most dangerous I have witnessed over the past few years and they are going to continue to be a handful moving forward. Fully deserving of their #2 (now #1?) ranking. Good luck, Eagles.

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 05, 2023, 10:44:12 AM

Quote from: southsidejet on September 05, 2023, 10:22:52 AM

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 03, 2023, 11:12:00 PM

We'll have to wait and see if JCU's perfect day/evening was capped off by an unforced error....

Men's Soccer Usurps #5 Kenyon Owls from National Pedestal

https://jcusports.com/news/2023/9/3/mens-soccer-usurps-5-kenyon-owls-from-national-pedestal.aspx

"...one of the most important early regular-season games to date for this program's history."

That quote & headline was from a member of the media. A more honest take from one of the captains later in the article:

"This game gave us a lot of momentum going forward, but we're not satisfied...we haven't won anything yet. All focus is on Carnegie Mellon on Thursday."

There is good experience & leadership on this team, so I'll take him at his word.

SSJ

No question JCU is a very mature squad with major talent...They have at least 4-5 guys who are very dangerous and excellent at finishing.  If Jaden Wright (transfer from Akron) turns out to be one of the top players in D3 then JCU is going to be super-dangerous.  That said, let's see if JCU can finally break through the Sweet 16/Rd of 32 barrier.

As for the article, I could be wrong but my impression always has been that most coaches provide the overall storylines and what to emphasize.  And I would guess that many coaches are involved in reviewing what gets posted.  Certainly JCU had every reason to be in a celebratory mood.

I assumed my post was pretty transparent insofar as I was using the article to call out Kenyon and ignite a competitive edge. It wasn't really about JCU.  If the article happens to provide some solid bulletin board material if they meet again in November then all the better.

Good luck the rest of the season... I'm sure JCU (& ONU) would want nothing more than for Kenyon to now go on a tear. 

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 03, 2023, 11:12:00 PM
We'll have to wait and see if JCU's perfect day/evening was capped off by an unforced error....

Men's Soccer Usurps #5 Kenyon Owls from National Pedestal

https://jcusports.com/news/2023/9/3/mens-soccer-usurps-5-kenyon-owls-from-national-pedestal.aspx

"...one of the most important early regular-season games to date for this program's history."

That quote & headline was from a member of the media. A more honest take from one of the captains later in the article:

"This game gave us a lot of momentum going forward, but we're not satisfied...we haven't won anything yet. All focus is on Carnegie Mellon on Thursday."

There is good experience & leadership on this team, so I'll take him at his word.

Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 07, 2022, 01:41:42 PM
On that first half of the selections... Rowan and Middlebury is my circled match.

Hopkins hosting... Not the BLUE STREAKS again!!!!

Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 04, 2022, 11:16:53 AM
Blue Streaks is still one of the sillier mascots I've come across in D3 land.

"The 1924 season was barely underway when the sports editor of The Ignatian noted that other colleges had nicknames for their teams. John Carroll used "Fighting Irish" for a short time, but that was already University of Notre Dame's nickname.

The person generally credited with christening the team with the new name, "Blue Streak," is Raymond Gibbons '24, who followed the team on the practice field after his graduation, despite a serious illness. On one of these occasions, he reportedly remarked, "they're tearing around like a blue streak." At his death in 1925, The Carroll News referred to him as "one of the most ardent followers of Carroll's teams and since his graduation he has kept up his interest in the Blue Streak eleven that he so aptly christened, attending every game he possibly could."

Its early use was always in the singular; it became "Blue Streaks" in the 1930s."

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 04, 2022, 11:11:38 AM
If anyone -- SC? -- can find video of the JCU goal with announcer reaction included please post.  I've searched every way I know how, and all I can come up with is below...a mini picture-story of the goal.

https://twitter.com/jcusports/status/1588360277090701312?s=20&t=Wqe7MFmCivKAAgEN47uPlw

I attended this game and viewed the video highlight clip of that call early this morning... announcer's reaction was an instant classic! Unfortunately the link is no longer available for some reason nor the game itself, but if I stumble upon it later I'll try to share.

All you need to do is look a prior seasons' rosters. If there are 30-40+ kids listed then there's a good chance they have a reserve team. If not, then there's a bunch of kids who will never see the field in any capacity (in this case a reserve team is good). I've seen these teams used both ways (development & home to those who don't make the main roster). It's competitive, and there are always new commits & transfers so never a guarantee of playing time regardless of the age of the player.

Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 15, 2021, 10:45:01 AM

Quote from: southsidejet on November 15, 2021, 09:47:05 AM
No details about the JCU-JHopkins game so I'll add a little color since I attended. Lots of snow, especially early on. Field conditions were bad in the beginning but much better in the second half as the field staff took an extended halftime to clear them off pretty good. A few chances by both sides early, then a borderline pk call (I've seen it several times and still not totally convinced) gave JH the lead on a rebound score. JCU had a bunch of late first half chances as they pressed, but couldn't equalize. A couple of really nice saves by the JH keeper! In the second half, JCU gradually took control of the game and the momentum shifted for good. 2 goals within 5 minutes of each other midway through the half sealed the deal. Somewhat physical game, especially once the players realized the ref was not going to call much. Also a long game... original kickoff time was supposed to be 3:30 but due to the snow and field conditions (delayed start, delayed half) it didn't end until almost 6:30.

Thanks for this! I was on a flight and just caught the first 20 minutes before boarding. Pk call seemed... about right? I dunno, the conditions were so gnarly at that point, it looked like the JCU defender slide about 3 yards and took out the Hopkins player... Even unintentionally, it still took out a player in the box. But it was a very strange play. Hopkins trying to play their possession in the first half all the way at their PK spot was pretty crazy. Just lump it up  the field, man. Classic Hopkins, man. Middle of a snowstorm and you're trying to push the ball 10 yards at a time.

Yeah I agree. Those of us watching were somewhat shocked they continued to build from the back in those conditions, even under pressure. I mean, one little slip back there...

Quote from: d4_Pace on November 15, 2021, 09:33:27 AM
No stands and the field will be below average at best, downright bad if any inclement weather strikes.

Perfect for hosting a weekend of soccer in November then.   Thanks for the heads-up.

No details about the JCU-JHopkins game so I'll add a little color since I attended. Lots of snow, especially early on. Field conditions were bad in the beginning but much better in the second half as the field staff took an extended halftime to clear them off pretty good. A few chances by both sides early, then a borderline pk call (I've seen it several times and still not totally convinced) gave JH the lead on a rebound score. JCU had a bunch of late first half chances as they pressed, but couldn't equalize. A couple of really nice saves by the JH keeper! In the second half, JCU gradually took control of the game and the momentum shifted for good. 2 goals within 5 minutes of each other midway through the half sealed the deal. Somewhat physical game, especially once the players realized the ref was not going to call much. Also a long game... original kickoff time was supposed to be 3:30 but due to the snow and field conditions (delayed start, delayed half) it didn't end until almost 6:30.