Quote from: Nescacman on October 24, 2024, 09:54:49 AMMr. Honcho,

We agree with you (and has been noted MANY times on this very Board over MANY years); "it's all about the Jimmy and Joe's, not the X's and O's".

Success in the NESCAC (or any high academic league like the Ivy's, Centennial, etc.) begins and ends with admissions. If the program is not getting admissions support, it's very difficult, if not impossible to win in this league. That's why we are so bullish on UBates and what Coach Coyne is doing there.

As far as the Lord Mammoths coaching, was anyone criticizing Coach Mills and his staff when they were having (a ton of) success as recently as 2018? Did Coach Mills suddenly forget how to coach or recruit? We met with him two weeks ago and the answer is an emphatic, NO. 

Amherst still has 3 games left, including games against their two biggest rivals in the Little 3. Let's continue this discussion at the end of the season when we see the entire body of work for the 2024 season.

Personally, we are looking forward to observing in person the LM's as they face the Mysterious Methodists from Middletown on Saturday.

NM

PS Maybe the problem is the name change from the Lord Jeffs to the Mammoths. Since changing their name in 2017, Amherst is 32-28.

No one is saying Coach Mills lost his "ability to coach".  But through this Board, I have learned that Mills comes from the D side of the ball and used to win by running, clock control, winning the turnover battle and through D.  A model anyone in the NE would be influenced by given the success of the NY Giants and Bill Parcels mold.

But Amherst ain't running too well, ain't giving the QB too much time to pass the ball nor move the chains right now.

Just more of a rant to adapt your "Xs and Os" based on the personnel the admissions department is allowing in.  An offense the Academies other schools with smaller linemen use is a form of the option, so that linemen can block low in the box by the virtue of a pull.  I don't see a lot of that but I defer to you guys for your opinions.

Trust me, when you are outmatched, little "strategy" will work.  However, help the kids out and adapt over 3 downs and a punt.

losing by 1 and losing by a lot is a loss.  Change it up and/or play for the future.  I know the Seniors have worked hard for 4 years but 4 TD losses isn't creating a lot of fun.  Might as well do something other than what is resulting in consistent 4 TD losses.

Just a thought.
 

I'm sure Amherst is an easy team for most of you to root against.

But for the love of excitement, do any of you get tired of beating a team that can't score and barely get first downs?



Congrats to Colby, Bowdoin and Tufts for stomping us of late!

Middlebury, thank you for toying with us in the 2nd half, giving us a false hope ...

... it was fun while it lasted.


Help me out, journeymen of NESCAC FB ...

... if your OL struggles to run straight forward to allow your RBs to bruise, as Amherst did more years removed than they want to acknowledge, would not 5 step drops ALSO be dangerous???

Would not an OC help a struggling OL out by mixing in QB draws, screens, play action pass, run pass options, the option, a reverse a dang flea flicker, hook and lateral, etc...

SOMETHING???

Or does blocking improve after the 7th series ending in a punt, allowing the offense to suddenly run at will and pass out of a 5 step drop?!?

okay, rant over but its getting old and I see nothing changing?!?

Thanks again for those of you who share stats and answer questions!  You guys really help a guy new to the league.

NESCAC Man ...

... my apologies if you ever answered my question last year but ...

... singular name, plural self reference in your posts ...

... what gives?

Any of you smart NESCAC folks predicting Amherst over Tufts this week?

I remember some genius calling Middlebury over Trinity last season???  I'd take some optimism from him on this one!



As for NESCAC Man openly questioning why a kid would choose Amherst ...

... I want more from him along these lines!



That kid is a great young man and has to attend UMASS ROTC to make it all work.  Hopefully, the extra conditioning will only empower him to score the winning TD next year at Hogwarts.

When he does, I'm celebrating by running the bases adjacent to the temporary erector set bleachers and sliding in to home plate!



Then, I will mistakenly but legally relieve myself of the Natty Lights consumed before and DURING the game in a neuter gender bathroom at the clothing optional dorm, not caring about aim and damn sure not caring about the posture of the seat!

Who knows, I might get to sneaky peak some arm pit and leg hair, Birkenstocks and some organic, free/fair trade granola when I do so.

< end rant! >

I see 4 groupings:

Battling for the Championship
Trinity & Middlebury

Hoping to contend for the Championship
Tufts & Wesleyan

Battling for a Winning Record
Williams, Bowdoin, Amherst & Colby

Battling to not be Last
Hamilton & Bates

All of you are all more well read on who was lost and who is coming back.  Anything out of order, above?  I know that "analysis" is rather generic and normally holds true the last 5 years or so.

What say you NESCAC experts?

The Mammoth's only loss last year that they should/could have won was to Colby.  The rest of their losses were to clearly better teams.

Amherst 7, Middlebury 21
Hamilton 14, Amherst 17
Amherst 0, Trinity 49
Amherst 17, Bates 7
Colby 19, Amherst 16
Tufts 34, Amherst 14
Amherst 7, Wesleyan 34
Amherst 27, Bowdoin 23
Williams 14, Amherst 21

4-5 for the season

State of NESCAC FB

Does anyone disagree with the NESCAC being summed up in to 3 tiers at this time:

Contenders
Trinity, Middlebury, Tufts & Wesleyan

Fighting for a winning record
Williams, Bowdoin & Amherst

Fighting to not be last
Colby, Hamilton & Bates

Trinity obviously the perennial favorite

Quote from: nescac1 on May 12, 2024, 04:50:34 PMSpeaking of Amherst seems like a VERY small recruiting class they posted - only 17 guys.  Two guys who were at one point committed seem to have had a change of heart, including Brady Jung, who appears to be joining former HS teammate Jaden Richardson at USC (presumably as a walk-on), and a DB who switched to W&L.  Only one QB and one DB listed. 

I've only seen 18 recruits for Williams as well so far, but the Ephs don't post recruits on social media and I assume there are likely a few more. Still, on average Williams and Amherst are simply not able to bring in these massive classes like Trinity, Wesleyan and some others do which is of course a huge disadvantage.  I wonder if admissions gives a bit more slack next year as at least Williams is losing a large (and hugely impactful) class with a slew of fifth year guys.   

Yes, the NESCAC is a strange league, in terms of some school Admins supporting FB more than others.

Trinity really does do a great job in supporting their FB Program.  Props to all involved in that.

Rumor ...

... I'm certainly in no position to know if true ...

... but an Amherst FB parent told me that some FB and other sport boosters told the Admin they wanted to raise the money for a dedicated athlete's weight room, akin to Trinity's and it was rejected.

So IF Amherst is more concerned about "dividing the students" between athletes and nonathletes, to the point they will turn down money to build something that ultimately makes student life BETTER for the nonathletes ...

... I'm sure bringing in larger classes and lowering academic requirements for FB players is WAY BEYOND possibility at this time.

Quote from: The Mole on December 18, 2023, 12:54:21 PM
Who do they "loose" (IYKYK  ) recruits to? Why didn't your son choose Middlebury over Amherst? Had not had a losing season since 1993 and 3 of the last 4 have been losing records. League has historically been dominated by Williams, Amherst and Trinity. Why were they winning in the first place? 

Loose?

Because Amherst was rated the better school, per most rankings.  But Middlebury is a great school and they put plenty on Wall Street.

Winning?  Per the consensus of this message board, your kid's weightlifting regimen, your "program culture" and your Head Coach are the ONLY 3 relevant factors ...

Confused more now but thanks for replying!

Quote from: The Mole on December 14, 2023, 04:57:15 PM
FACTS:

Records for NESCAC teams last three years ('21, '22 and '23). Indicative of how the 2024 senior class (and 5th year) players have fared and possible expectations for the upcoming season. No one is prognosticating championships, the games need to be played, but track record and returning experience is more important than opinion. 

Trinity 25-2, 1 outright championship, 1 shared
Middlebury 18-9. 1 shared championship
Wesleyan 18-9, winning record vs every team in the 3 year period except Bantams. Certainly mediocre and not a contender
Tufts 16-11, did they miss their shot?
Williams 15-12, 1 outright championship
Amherst 11-16, should they ever have a losing record?
Colby 11-16, great facilities and support, not translating to the field
Bowdoin 8-19, Hammered out a few decent wins and much improved, can they move up the ladder?
Hamilton 7-20, Can they build upon the Tufts W or was it an aberration?
Bates 6-21, can only get better from here

"Amherst 11-16, should they ever have a losing record?"

Do you mind sharing your thoughts on this statement?  Is it because of "facilities", national appeal to recruit, etc?

Thank you in advance!

Quote from: The Ghost of John Wesley on December 07, 2023, 05:01:46 PM

I'm not familiar with Intercultural Insights, but that data appears to be out of date or otherwise off in some way. Wesleyan's acceptance rate is 14% (has flexed between 13.9-16% over the last few years).

Sources: US News & World Report; self-reported data

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/wesleyan-university-1424/applying#:~:text=Wesleyan%20University%20has%20an%20acceptance%20rate%20of%2014%25
https://wesleyanargus.com/2022/04/04/class-of-2026-admissions-results-universiy-sees-lowest-acceptance-rate-on-record/

okay.  I've always found acceptance rate the biggest 'bag measure schools do.  Why use a negative as a measure?

Average test scores, GPAs, professional accomplishments of past graduates, 10 year salary average, graduate level obtainment in 10 years, etc.

But for schools to promote themselves to get more to apply to have a lower % seems like a waste of resources.

I think the early admission thing is a stat that has yet to manifest.  Think about the bragging point of IF you apply here AND we accept you, you have to drop all other applications.  That truly shows the school to be the 1 and ONLY school they hope to attend.

Seems like a bragging point to me.  Like a % of all incoming freshmen applied early/exclusive.

These 2,000 student schools have classes of 500.  I bet they could get 60-70%, filling with the Ivy Plus schools rejections easy in the spring.

Quote from: Jonny Utah on December 06, 2023, 02:51:12 PM

The problem here is probably more than half of the Amherst College football team isn't getting into Amherst if they aren't playing football (or had parents who attended which could also change now). 

So the argument kind of has to start there.  Amherst is an "academic school" but the football roster doesn't really reflect the admissions standards of the school as a whole. Now the MIT football team could fit in well with your argument.  I don't think they mind playing in a conference that allows them to go to the playoffs. 

Also you know there are probably more Nescac/Ivy league grad public school teachers making the same $ as your phys ed teacher?  Not sure where you are getting the PE angle from. 

So the bottom line is you have to ask yourself how much do the colleges want to bend their admissions and financial aid.  Stanford, Vanderbilt and Boston College all decided to bend the admissions a lot and give out 75+ free rides a year.  The Ivy league schools decided to bend the admissions and financial aid a little, but not to the extend the other schools did.  Then you have Amherst and Williams who also bend the admissions and financial aid, but want to stay small.  Then you have MIT who doesn't bend at either end.

For what it's worth, let me add this wasted time for the good of the group.  It's something I looked up in the past but never shared.  But given your post, I figured I might as well put it out here in case anyone wants to research it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

https://interculturalinsights.com/nescac-schools-ranked-by-acceptance-rate/

#1: Connecticut College: Acceptance rate- 41%
Average SAT range: 1333-1476
Average ACT range: 20-33

#2: Trinity College: Acceptance rate- 38%
Average SAT range: 1333-1480
Average ACT range: 29-33

#3: Wesleyan University: Acceptance rate- 19%
Average SAT range: 1300-1510
Average ACT range: 31-35

#4: Bates College: Acceptance rate- 17%
Average SAT range: 1260-1470
Average ACT range: 30-34

#5: Middlebury College: Acceptance rate- 13%
Average SAT range: 1380-1530
Average ACT range: 32-34

#6: Hamilton College: Acceptance rate- 11.8%
Average SAT range: 1410-1550
Average ACT range: 33-35

#7: Colby College: Acceptance rate- 9%
Average SAT range: 1400-1530
Average ACT range: 32-35

#8: Tufts University: Acceptance rate- 9%
Average SAT range: 1440-1550
Average ACT range: 33-35

#9: Bowdoin College: Acceptance rate- 9%
Average SAT range: 1320-1520
Average ACT range: 30-34

#10: Amherst College: Acceptance rate- 9%
Average SAT range: 1440-1570
Average ACT range: 32-35

#11: Williams College: Acceptance rate- 9%
Average SAT range: 1460-1560
Average ACT range: 33-35

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-liberal-arts-colleges

#1  Williams College
#2  Amherst College
#9  Bowdoin College
#11  Middlebury College
#11  Wesleyan University
#16  Hamilton College
#24  Bates College
#25  Colby College
#39  Trinity College
#46  Connecticut College
* Tufts is not ranked with Liberal Arts Colleges

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
https://www.forbes.com/top-colleges/

10. Williams College
11. Amherst College
42. Wesleyan University
44. Bowdoin College
53. Middlebury College
55. Tufts University
64. Hamilton College
80. Trinity College (CT)
89. Colby College
127. Bates College

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
https://www.wsj.com/rankings/college-rankings/best-colleges-2024

8  Amherst College
31  Williams College
50  Colby College
73  Wesleyan University
88  Hamilton College
89  Bowdoin College
131  Middlebury College
191  Trinity College
225  Connecticut College
287  Tufts University

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
https://www.timeshighereducation.com/rankings/united-states/2019#!/length/-1/sort_by/rank/sort_order/asc/cols/stats

22  Amherst College
23  Williams College
32  Tufts University
37  Middlebury College
44  Bowdoin College
46  Wesleyan University
67  Hamilton College
71  Colby College
77  Bates College
92  Connecticut College
111  Trinity College

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

https://www.reachhighscholars.org/college_endowments.html

         Endowment/Student ($)
               Endowment ($000)
                     # of Students
                                                        
Williams      2,085,448   4,170,895   2,000
Amherst         1,916,321   3,775,153   1,970
Bowdoin         1,530,460   2,719,628   1,777
Hamilton      699,645      1,399,289   2,000
Colby         598,923      1,257,738   2,100
Wesleyan      491,453      1,572,651   3,200
Middlebury      464,923      1,511,001   3,250
Trinity College      361,386      783,123      2,167
Connecticut College   237,590      434,553      1,829
Bates         233,008      466,016      2,000
Tufts         222,807      2,646,506   11,878

Quote from: Jonny Utah on December 06, 2023, 02:51:12 PM

The problem here is probably more than half of the Amherst College football team isn't getting into Amherst if they aren't playing football (or had parents who attended which could also change now). 

So the argument kind of has to start there.  Amherst is an "academic school" but the football roster doesn't really reflect the admissions standards of the school as a whole. Now the MIT football team could fit in well with your argument.  I don't think they mind playing in a conference that allows them to go to the playoffs. 

Also you know there are probably more Nescac/Ivy league grad public school teachers making the same $ as your phys ed teacher?  Not sure where you are getting the PE angle from. 

So the bottom line is you have to ask yourself how much do the colleges want to bend their admissions and financial aid.  Stanford, Vanderbilt and Boston College all decided to bend the admissions a lot and give out 75+ free rides a year.  The Ivy league schools decided to bend the admissions and financial aid a little, but not to the extend the other schools did.  Then you have Amherst and Williams who also bend the admissions and financial aid, but want to stay small.  Then you have MIT who doesn't bend at either end.

Oh goodness, don't start that touchy subject again.

I tried to understand the academic standards of the NESCAC and one insightful poster referred to it as "dark arts", joking to the mystery of it.

The consensus was that each school has its own differing academic standards so there is not a "level playing field", in regards to minimum standards established.  And that seems to set off one particular fanbase in defense.

So I try to steer clear of that.

What I can share, from the Amherst perspective are anecdotal facts.  I know a player who scored a 1480 on the SAT and he was told to leave it off???  I know the .500 might be north of that but I can promise you there are plenty of "front door" students with less.

But I do agree that there is a perception that athletes get in with less and that only makes sense to be competitive in sports.  It seems like a struggle at Amherst but let's hope this new President is more supportive of FB than the previous loon.  So far, he seems cool and I also think it fair to mention that very few Seniors and Super Seniors started this year.

MIT is the ONLY D3 school that has such ridiculous academic standards.  My son supposedly had an "offer" there but I trusted that as far as you could throw it.  And they ONLY have spring applications.  Amherst in the fall was as "sure" as it could get.

But look at all the rankings of academics for D3 FB and MIT is the ONLY one whose FB Players may be in line with the "Front Doors" and that's because they mostly cap out at 1600.



In fairness to Johns Hopkins, their coach told my son he needed a 1500 for them to talk to him.  He had that but JH seemed as miserable as MIT so I tried not to foster it.  That and JH does not play in a closed league like the NESCAC.

Not about the money ...

... I respect any and all in what they do in life, as long as they don't take my tax dollars doing it.  Any kid who has a passion to teach children is AWESOME!

My PE Jab was about an easy program of study.  I do not know of ANY NESCAC school offering a degree plan like this:

https://www.northcentralcollege.edu/program/exercise-science

But I take it back, if so.  I was an education major at a directional state school.  My 4 year Special Education Degree was a LOT easier than the undergrad BA prereqs and degree plan for the MBA I got from the very same school 10 years later, after changing my career from teaching.

"So the bottom line is you have to ask yourself how much do the colleges want to bend their admissions and financial aid."

<I agree wholeheartedly with you on this but got beat to hell for even suggesting that this could impact the results on the field as much as the hard work in the weight room and the genius of the Head Coach.  So please excuse me for not wanting to discuss further at this time.>

I honestly think Stanford and Notre Dame are the last of the D1s who don't take mirror foggers for FB.

Vanderbilt offered a kid at my son's HS and he was lazy and a poor student, from a non FB perspective.  But he could meet prop 48 standards (if still called that) so they were happy to offer him.

Don't know anything about BC but I'll trust you.

Take care and the Fenway idea came from the Ithaca vs. Cortland game in Yankee Stadium.  That's awesome.

Ithaca was interested in my son but Amherst was a better fit.  He has loved it in his years there!

Quote from: MapleBBQChicken on December 06, 2023, 03:10:27 PM

I am indeed a former player. I just finished my senior season at Middlebury. I realize the "I" and "we" pronouns probably sounded a little weird if you didn't have that piece of context. Anyway, I think the kids would be all for it. It definitely is something we've joked/complained about in the past. The Admins, not so much. Some of the more experienced posters on here have made the point that football is not necessarily encouraged, but more just tolerated by NESCAC school administrations. I think that's not too far from the truth, and our lack of playoff participation is evidence of that. I think the Admins are far and away the toughest obstacle here.

Personally, I would be willing to end the year on a loss after a conference championship if it meant a chance to win a national championship (however small that chance may be). And as I mentioned before, while that final loss might be at the hands of one of these lower-academic D3 powerhouses, it might be to a good school too. Travel is another obstacle, but my view is that if Middlebury can send its track team to San Diego or tennis teams to Florida (true examples), then it can send its football team down the East Coast or to the Midwest. I also don't think it would be out of the question for a NESCAC team to host an early round game, especially given the quality of the facilities at some of the schools.

Awesome season, MapleBBQChicken!

There is a poster on this site that predicted y'all over Trinity, GroundandPound.  He's got genius status with me, until he loses it.



I'm a little sweet for Middlebury FB as well, being that my son got his 1st NESCAC offer from them.

"I" and "we" are the least of the pronoun issues in the NESCAC.



If the players think going up to five more weeks with a 1 of 32 chance is better than a Bowl, then I support it.  Players first, being that my worries are how to keep up your studies.

The Admins grovel for money and I would bet the former athletes give more, per capita.  But that is just a blind hunch.  Always flex your desires when you write a check.  And don't write another one until they follow through on anything they previously agreed to.  It's your only power.

Great year and your team is the ONLY NESCAC FB Champion in 2023 in my book until Trinity paints a "Co" in front of that 2018 "championship" they tout!

Quote from: BigKat on December 06, 2023, 02:13:01 PM
Johns Hopkins was a fg away from being in final 4. Bet they wouldn't trade that experience.

touché

Quote from: MapleBBQChicken on December 05, 2023, 07:50:45 PM

MammothDad – While I've agreed with a lot of what you've had to say over the past few weeks, I don't agree here. I think the notion that because we are at elite academic schools we need to shut football down in early November is illogical. If we can successfully balance football, academics, and non-football extracurriculars until then, there's no reason we can't do it the whole semester. Every other NESCAC sport is allowed to play in the NCAA tournament. And it's not like there aren't high-academic programs in the field for football. Johns Hopkins and MIT have been mentioned already, and if we expand geographically, U Chicago and the Claremont/Harvey Mudd team both play in conferences with automatic bids to the NCAA tournament. I don't see why football needs to be treated differently from other NESCAC sports, and I don't see why the NESCAC needs to be treated differently from the rest of the country. Let the boys play.

Thanks.  Are you a former NESCAC player?

Some of the people on here are amazing with their research skills.  Let's see what the Playoff records are for "academic" schools in the D3 Playoffs.

Just hate to see the joy of League Champ be fizzled when the school spends lots of money to travel to a loss of a school where the players are majoring in PE, destined to be HS coaches with a debt load they can never pay off.

But if the kids and the Admins are supportive of it, sure.  Get in the dance.  Just remember, 31 teams end on a let down in the playoff.