Sigh...

Same as it ever was...

Same expectations. Same result. Same responses. Same mention on ESPN.

We need a yawn emoticon

Stay true to the System, OBC! Shake it off and keep shooting! 

Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on December 07, 2013, 09:30:37 PM

Quote from: systemfan86 on December 07, 2013, 09:21:21 PM

Quote from: wnc52 on December 07, 2013, 05:37:56 PM

Quote from: systemfan86 on December 07, 2013, 03:49:40 PM
As a reference to the problem some Grinnell fans have with the charges of unsportsmanlike play, margin of victory, and quality of opponent, I give you a score that just ran across the bottom of ESPN

#21 Michigan 107, Houston Baptist 53

HBU has 2500 students - the size of Carroll University - so we don't have schools of similar stature.
Doubt anyone will get upset by this game. So the vitriol for Grinnell seems odd to us.

Just sayin.

Yeah, that's really not even close to an apples-to-apples comparison...

I'll allow the clarification that the issue has more to do with records than opponents, but IF the issue is opponents and margin of victory, then you are right that it not even close to an apples to apples in the sense that Grinnell is much closer competitively to Crossroads Baptist than Michigan is to Houston Baptist.

Grinnell is not the defending NCAA tournament runner up.

To clarify more precisely, it is singling out pathetic opponents to try for individual records in what is supposedly a team game (especially since one of the features of The System Grinnell brags most about is involving everyone).

BTW, citing enrollments is utterly irrelevant.  In high school, enrollment size matters.  In college, they are all recruited.  In theory, a college with 8 students could win the national tourney if the coach recruited the right 8!

Fair enough. That's true in theory, but not in practice. Larger schools have facilities and TV contracts that attract top players more than small schools. You aren't making the point that HBU IS competitive with Michigan are you?

Grinnell may have better facilities to attract basketball players than Crossroads, but the difference is not as drastic as Michigan and HBU. :-)

And to take this full circle, the biggest advantage Grinnell has in attracting basketball players is the national publicity is gets on occasion. Not necessarily pretty, but true.

Quote from: wnc52 on December 07, 2013, 05:37:56 PM

Quote from: systemfan86 on December 07, 2013, 03:49:40 PM
As a reference to the problem some Grinnell fans have with the charges of unsportsmanlike play, margin of victory, and quality of opponent, I give you a score that just ran across the bottom of ESPN

#21 Michigan 107, Houston Baptist 53

HBU has 2500 students - the size of Carroll University - so we don't have schools of similar stature.
Doubt anyone will get upset by this game. So the vitriol for Grinnell seems odd to us.

Just sayin.

Yeah, that's really not even close to an apples-to-apples comparison...

I'll allow the clarification that the issue has more to do with records than opponents, but IF the issue is opponents and margin of victory, then you are right that it not even close to an apples to apples in the sense that Grinnell is much closer competitively to Crossroads Baptist than Michigan is to Houston Baptist.

Grinnell is not the defending NCAA tournament runner up.

As a reference to the problem some Grinnell fans have with the charges of unsportsmanlike play, margin of victory, and quality of opponent, I give you a score that just ran across the bottom of ESPN

#21 Michigan 107, Houston Baptist 53

HBU has 2500 students - the size of Carroll University - so we don't have schools of similar stature.
Doubt anyone will get upset by this game. So the vitriol for Grinnell seems odd to us.

Just sayin.

So aside from The Roop, anyone going to be at Saturday's game in Beloit?

I just realized that Galena, IL - where I spend Thanksgiving - is within reasonable driving distance (less than 2 hours) of  Beloit.

After spending two days with my family, I might want to get away for a while. 

Quote from: jeffdc on November 26, 2013, 09:44:26 AM

Quote from: The Roop on November 25, 2013, 11:26:32 AM
No word as to whether the game will be televised but it sounds like the ESPN folk will be in Beloit Saturday when Grinnell comes to town.

You have to do a play by play on Twitter or something for those of us who don't have cable....

Good lord, my thumbs hurt just thinking about trying to do play by play on twitter for a Grinnell game.

Carpal tunnel anyone? 

Quote from: Titan Q on November 19, 2013, 06:50:52 PM

Grinnell had the same personnel for the Faith Baptist game last year as it did for those MWC games that followed -- yet the Pioneers distributed their FGA in an extremely different fashion.  I doubt The System needed to be "tweaked" from an X's and O's standpoint to beat Faith Baptist...and I doubt it needed to be "tweaked" on November 17, 2013 for Crossroads. 

Dave Arsenault really only changes The System when he wants to set individuals records, right?

Listen, Grinnell has and will play for records. They've said as much. I don't care for it. Lots of people who have access to public media and only pay attention to D3 games when unusual things happen clearly don't like it. Those opinions don't seem to impact the people making the decision to go for the records. Nor do any of us have a true feel for the team's perspective on these attempts. 

But to say that they only change it to set individual records is too broad a charge. The point that jeffp was making is that personnel does drive the version of the system played. When they have a player who is a superior shooter (like Taylor), they adapt to get that player more looks. You can go back through the years and find games where names like Clement and Wood  took a high volume of the team attempts. It was what the situation called for and was more 'organic'. I don't hear most people complaining about those games.

Let restrict our consternation to the games where the goal is (1) win the game and (1a) break a record. Painting with a broad brush is too messy

One more comment, then I have to go.

I do struggle with the idea that Grinnell should be expected to slow down when the score is lopsided.

The nature of the style of play is unquestionably up tempo without exception. To ask them to slow down is in someways a request for them to abandon their playbook.

If the purpose of non-conference games is to get a team to work on their game plan - and I think that is one of the goals - how are Grinnell's team members served if they must abandon it? Add to that the need to incorporate 19-20 players into the game plan, and it could be seen as counter productive to have them slow down.

I think lopsided scores against teams unfamiliar and unprepared for up tempo teams is a by product of the style of play. The size of the score magnifies that result and raises the conversation of lack of sportsmanship.

Supporters of that style of play - including Grinnell's supporters - can't help but feel a little...conflicted...when other teams are not expected to abandon their style of play based on the relative magnitude of the score.

Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 18, 2013, 07:20:40 PM

Quote from: jeffp on November 18, 2013, 07:05:21 PM
And I only care because so many of you blather on about Grinnell's "unsportsmanlike" behavior. I'll defend what they do until it really IS unsportsmanlike.

In other words - never.

If you honestly can't understand how pummeling a hapless opponent for the sake of a record violates generally understood norms of sportsmanship ...

You challenged us to define sportsmanship.  While we haven't done that in specific detail (for this sort of concept, I think proscriptions are much better than giving prescriptions), I'll now give you the reverse challenge - what would Grinnell have to do to EVER have you not defend them?

I'm not a fan of the admitted attempts to achieve records. To put it in a very Grinnell friendly way - it's not organic. And I expect that is what we are hearing from Mr Ypsi and Mr Sager. Records achieved as result of normal game play are considered more acceptable than those achieved because that is the goal.

The acknowledgement is there that scheduling is an issue, and I think the beggers-can't-be-choosers factor is true here. Grinnell, like all other teams, need non-conference games. Since many teams won't agree to play them, they play who they can. That can mean some bad teams and/or teams unprepared for their approach.

I would like to call out that the outlier nature of Grinnell game scores adds to the reaction. Grinnell won by 50 against Crossroads. That difference is 40% of Crossroads point total. On Sunday, Louisville beat Cornell (University) by 45 in a game where CU only scored 54. (BTW, the halftime score was 54-13 and the final was 99-54) Which was a more lopsided win?
Had a Louisville player scored say 45 points in the game would we call that unsportsmanlike? The size of the numbers is a result of the System style and has an impact on the attention it receives. Heck, Taylor's 71 on Friday garnered relatively little attention.

My point here is not to defend. I was the first on the board to call the blowback that was coming. If I was going to attempt a defense, I'd use the 'player coming off an injury who needs to get his shot and stamina back'. But that would be conjecture and trying to put the best possible face on this.

Perhaps the team would be best served by using situations like to find another shooter who can step into the role when Taylor  has a cold shooting night or, god forbid, another injury.   

Quote from: carletonsid on November 18, 2013, 11:25:42 AM

Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 18, 2013, 01:33:31 AM

Quote from: jeffp on November 17, 2013, 11:18:40 PM
Mr Ypsi, where were you when Monmouth beat  a very overmatched Grinnell in football 65 -3? We're not complaining, mind you, we're just playing our game the best we can just like Monmouth did. And St Norbert. And Cornell. No complaints...other than we wish we'd have played better and won.

Play the System; enjoy the System; but don't expect applause when you abuse the System to set totally phony records against 'teams' that were utterly helpless to defend themselves.  I have no doubt that Jack Taylor is a very good player; getting 100+ against 'teams' like Crossroads or CoF does NOT impress me.

This sums up my feelings about all this recognition, plus it casts D3 basketball in a poor light, like we're some sort of silly circus sideshow. And yet, jeffp and the Grinnell faithful wonder why they have trouble getting games...

I think his point about not wanting the distraction of playing a team with an unusual style was more likely the real reason.

Quote from: jeffdc on November 18, 2013, 09:00:26 AM
well, well. It's certainly more entertaining with JeffP back in the saddle. 

Roop, you out there? Between you and Jeff, you can bring back the glory days of this board!

We need Diehardfan as well. And - God help me for saying it - more of LarryU. 

Quote from: frodotwo on November 17, 2013, 08:17:20 PM

Quote from: systemfan86 on November 17, 2013, 05:34:43 PM
Oh boy, here we go again.

Just checked the Grinnelll game. 158-100 with time left. When I pulled up the audio, Jack Taylor had a 104.

Let the wailing begin.

Perhaps a virtual middle finger from the team over last year's negative response?

Sigh...

***YAWN***

Yawn?! Cool!!!  I hope your's is the typical response. 

Interesting...

Watching the end of the game and the Crossroads College players are throwing alley-oops to teammates.
From the visual, at least Crossroads is not hanging their heads.

Just anticipating the blow back...

Oh boy, here we go again.

Just checked the Grinnelll game. 158-100 with time left. When I pulled up the audio, Jack Taylor had a 104.

Let the wailing begin.

Perhaps a virtual middle finger from the team over last year's negative response?

Sigh...