Quote from: hoopdreams on December 06, 2010, 02:33:35 PM
I knew the ratios, deviations, %'s were coming.....priceless.  Need some assistance in figuring out what it actually means.  

I suggest this link as a place to seek the assistance you require.

sounds like Jackson from Trine had a pair of warm ones last weekend.  Are they sneaking in under the radar, or not playing solid competition yet.  Rodgers(?) and Jackson are going to be really good for a long time, and with a couple others (believe Veach will be a really good one too) could throw a wrench into the "chalk 2 w's against Trine every year" theory.

Quote from: realist on December 06, 2010, 01:15:07 PM
HCG:  I wish I could share your optimism that Calvin has this great, talented team.     When I see a guy with totally underwhelming stats touted as this great "shooter", and see he really averages .278 (5-18) on 3's it does little to inspire confidence.  
Quoting you: " He [BH] will never be mistaken for a banger down low, a great post game, or a dominant rebounder."  Sadly he will probably never be mistaken for a good basketball player either.

The one question that KVS's post game comments quickly brings to mind is:

Isn't it the coach's job to have his team ready to play with "intensity" for 40 minutes?

I think it is a shared responsibility between coach and players, and to his credit, one that KVS has not shrunk from in his comments and interviews. 

I just hesitate to get too high on this young Knight team after a wonderful Cornerstone game (see my previous comments), or too low on them after getting swept at the MIAA/CCIW Challenge. 

I also think it's too harsh to single out Brian Haverdink or the playing time he received as the main culprit.  He certainly did not have an impactful game on Saturday, but I wouldn't extrapolate that out to his overall skill as a basketball player.  In watching him I think he must have worked hard in the offseason as he has evolved from near-roster filler status last year to an important contributor off the bench this year.  In determining his skill as a 3 point shooter, I also feel that his performance in the intra-squad scrimmage matters for something, even if it matters much less than an actual game.  i think the report from KS was that he hit 6 or 7 treys in that game. 

Quote from: hoopdreams on December 06, 2010, 02:33:35 PM
I knew the ratios, deviations, %'s were coming.....priceless.  Need some assistance in figuring out what it actually means.  

Sadly what it means is someone is trying to use statistics to cover up for a poooooooooorly performing player.
The only standard deviation that needs to be applied is copious amounts of bench time.  The dude doesnt care enough to go hustle up a rebound or two.  What good is a marginal shooter that needs 100% optimum conditions before he puts up a shot.   People sitting in the stands have a higher probability of touching the ball than this.

KS:  I did find the teacher/student thing amusing for about 20 seconds, and than it dawned on me it is an open book test, and the coach is expected to be involved in the actual playing of the game not just practice.    Crunch all the numbers you want this guy isn't ever going to hit .400 on 3's when it counts.

I will give KVS credit that his game plans ytd have deviated from his statistical norms. However,  his hackneyed, (made commonplace or trite; stale; banal, lacking in freshness or originality) cliche ridden post game summaries are wearing thin.  Find 5 guys at Calvin that want to win as much as TS does, and let them play 40 minutes.

Quote from: realist on December 06, 2010, 02:58:20 PM

Quote from: hoopdreams on December 06, 2010, 02:33:35 PM
I knew the ratios, deviations, %'s were coming.....priceless.  Need some assistance in figuring out what it actually means.  

Sadly what it means is someone is trying to use statistics to cover up for a poooooooooorly performing player.
The only standard deviation that needs to be applied is copious amounts of bench time.  The dude doesnt care enough to go hustle up a rebound or two.  What good is a marginal shooter that needs 100% optimum conditions before he puts up a shot.   People sitting in the stands have a higher probability of touching the ball than this.

KS:  I did find the teacher/student thing amusing for about 20 seconds, and than it dawned on me it is an open book test, and the coach is expected to be involved in the actual playing of the game not just practice.    Crunch all the numbers you want this guy isn't ever going to hit .400 on 3's.

I will give KVS credit that his game plans ytd have deviated from his statistical norms. However,  his hackneyed, (made commonplace or trite; stale; banal, lacking in freshness or originality) cliche ridden post game summaries are wearing thin.  Find 5 guys at Calvin that want to win as much as TS does, and let them play 40 minutes.

From what I've seen (4 Calvin games), you're selling Haverdink very short.  Why so riled up over him, in particular, especially if you weren't there?  Just curious. 

Quote from: realist on December 06, 2010, 02:58:20 PM

Quote from: hoopdreams on December 06, 2010, 02:33:35 PM
I knew the ratios, deviations, %'s were coming.....priceless.  Need some assistance in figuring out what it actually means.  

Sadly what it means is someone is trying to use statistics to cover up for a poooooooooorly performing player.
The only standard deviation that needs to be applied is copious amounts of bench time.  The dude doesnt care enough to go hustle up a rebound or two.  What good is a marginal shooter that needs 100% optimum conditions before he puts up a shot.   People sitting in the stands have a higher probability of touching the ball than this.

KS:  I did find the teacher/student thing amusing for about 20 seconds, and than it dawned on me it is an open book test, and the coach is expected to be involved in the actual playing of the game not just practice.    Crunch all the numbers you want this guy isn't ever going to hit .400 on 3's when it counts.

I will give KVS credit that his game plans ytd have deviated from his statistical norms. However,  his hackneyed, (made commonplace or trite; stale; banal, lacking in freshness or originality) cliche ridden post game summaries are wearing thin.  Find 5 guys at Calvin that want to win as much as TS does, and let them play 40 minutes.

Brian has the best A/TO ratio on the team (well, actually second to DeYoung); he has the same number of assists as Brink, with a third the number of turnovers. In fact, no one on the team turns the ball over less frequently (per 40 minutes).

CM:  Riled up I accept that definition.     IF I were a Hope fan I certainly would want to see BH in the line up playing 22 minutes against my team if all he contributes is one assist, and a bunch of "unnoticables".

KS:  No body avoids contact with the ball like BH does either.

Quote from: realist on December 06, 2010, 03:45:17 PM
CM:  Riled up I accept that definition.     IF I were a Hope fan I certainly would want to see BH in the line up playing 22 minutes against my team if all he contributes is one assist, and a bunch of "unnoticables".

KS:  No body avoids contact with the ball like BH does either.

As a Hope fan, my reaction is (based on the total of games I've seen him in, not on Saturday's performance), "this kid may be someone we will need to watch out for this season."

Quote from: realist on December 06, 2010, 03:45:17 PM
KS:  No body avoids contact with the ball like BH does either.

That's completely untrue. He does a fair amount of taking the ball up the court when he's in the game, and pretty much everyone touches the ball on the offensive end.

And even if it was true, that would mean he's awfully good at assists. 

Quote from: realist on December 06, 2010, 03:45:17 PM
CM:  Riled up I accept that definition.     IF I were a Hope fan I certainly would want to see BH in the line up playing 22 minutes against my team if all he contributes is one assist, and a bunch of "unnoticables".

KS:  No body avoids contact with the ball like BH does either.

Realist, I have silently observed the discussion regarding Haverdink for the last day or so.  Interjecting the qualifier that I am a Calvin fan but one that has no particular feelings for or against Haverdink and also have never seen him play in my life I will say that I believe your disdain or whatever you would like to describe it as has gone quite a bit overboard.  I don't know if you have some personal beef with him but whether you do or not you sure are presenting yourself as if there were some preexisting grudge that is clouding your judgment and personal feeling towards him and you've found one particular game, out of wider selection available, that supports your feelings and have run with it.  Let's just switch gears and move on to some other topic.

Quote from: hoopdreams on December 06, 2010, 02:40:39 PM
sounds like Jackson from Trine had a pair of warm ones last weekend.  Are they sneaking in under the radar, or not playing solid competition yet

Dunno how to answer that. The OWP of Trine and the other seven MIAA teams is charted below, but the problem is that the sample size is small (only 5-to-8 games played apiece by the league's teams) and there's more variation among the opponents in terms of affiliation than you see in other D3 leagues, because the MIAA plays so many more games against non-D3 competition than is the norm.

team	W-L (pct)	OWP
Trine	6-1 (.857)	.459
Olivet	5-2 (.714)	.404
Adrian	3-3 (.500)	.467
Albion	2-3 (.400)	.517
Alma	2-3 (.400)	.244
Hope	2-3 (.400)	.756
Calvin	3-5 (.375)	.754
Kalamazoo	0-5 (.000)	.542

The interesting thing, of course, is how playing the likes of Cornerstone, Grace Bible, and Davenport has really boosted the OWP of Hope and Calvin.

Based only the Sat. game I agree he is good at assist.  The one time we have evidence he touched the ball he did get that highly valued assist.  It kept him from getting completely skunked in every category, except minutes played and fouls, we value highly enough to bother recording.
On Friday night we know he touched the ball at least 7 times, and he must have shot it every time he touched it as he went 3-7 with no assist.  
If this guy is really getting as many touches as you would have me believe he is doing a darn good job covering up any evidence of that fact.  In two games the guy played a total of 53 minutes, brought the ball up the court, and managed a grand total of 1 assist.  I guess his real value is he never turned it over.

CM this is fair warning.   He did shoot 3-5 on 3's on Friday so keep the ball away from this guy.  In fact you might want to build your entire game plan on just that.

Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 06, 2010, 04:39:31 PM

Quote from: hoopdreams on December 06, 2010, 02:40:39 PM
sounds like Jackson from Trine had a pair of warm ones last weekend.  Are they sneaking in under the radar, or not playing solid competition yet

Dunno how to answer that. The OWP of Trine and the other seven MIAA teams is charted below, but the problem is that the sample size is small (only 5-to-8 games played apiece by the league's teams) and there's more variation among the opponents in terms of affiliation than you see in other D3 leagues, because the MIAA plays so many more games against non-D3 competition than is the norm.

team	W-L (pct)	OWP
Trine	6-1 (.857)	.459
Olivet	5-2 (.714)	.404
Adrian	3-3 (.500)	.467
Albion	2-3 (.400)	.517
Alma	2-3 (.400)	.244
Hope	2-3 (.400)	.756
Calvin	3-5 (.375)	.754
Kalamazoo	0-5 (.000)	.542

The interesting thing, of course, is how playing the likes of Cornerstone, Grace Bible, and Davenport has really boosted the OWP of Hope and Calvin.

According to Massey (D3 rank):

18 -- Hope
30 -- Calvin
36 -- Olivet
83 -- Trine
132 -- Albion
203 -- Adrian
227 -- Alma
300 -- Kalamazoo

He says they're pretty good. Not Hope, Calvin, or Olivet, but pretty good.

Interesting regional rankings taken from KnightSlappy's Calvin bball blog that were published on 12/6.  Hope is 2nd in the region but has more overall losses than any other team in the top-9 of the region.  Only other MIAA team to come in is Trine registering at #9.

Looks like the league is also impressed with Ian Jackson:

MIAA Player of the Week:  Trine forward Ian Jackson, a sophomore from Indianapolis, Ind. (Perry Meridian HS), scored 54 points in two games last week as the Thunder ran their winning streak to six games. He scored 21 points in leading Trine to a 71-70 victory over Ohio Northern, then came back with 33 points and six rebounds in an 83-74 win over North Park, Ill. Jackson, who is being honored as Player of the Week for the first time in his career, made 21-of-36 shots from the field (58 percent), 4-of-8 on 3-pointers (50 percent), and 8-of-11 on free throws (73 percent) for the week.