Quote from: realist on December 13, 2010, 03:41:02 PM

Quote from: hoopdreams on December 13, 2010, 03:24:05 PM
Wizzy- how did I get thrown into this?  Other can commenting on poor interior defense (factual and spoken of by the coaching staff), I've been pretty upbeat and positive about Hope's team.  Haven't spread any "rumors" about players, injuries, off the court incidents, etc...If you're referring to my recent comments about Coach Hammer and his program, prove me wrong or go back and paste any recent comments that were overboard, uncalled for, or out of line. 

For the record, I don't drink, and hardly need any assistance getting a date. Besides, my better half would probably object to that.

It's called quilt by association. 

Is that what you call it when you share a home-made blanket with your better half?

Quote from: oldknight on December 13, 2010, 03:11:52 PMDon't confuse the difference between integrity and dignity. Coaches like KVS (and GVW), no matter whatever else we may think of them, have always been the type to not denigrate someone by "dissing" an opponant's league as I heard Bosko do on his postgame show after Carthage beat Calvin. Now that Bosko's boys have lost to an Albion team that many of us have thought (maybe correctly, maybe not) is a bit down this year, Bosko might want to reassess whether the CCIW is really that much better than the MIAA.

What I am about to post may get me a few karma dings in a "shoot the messenger" vein, as well as a wisecrack or two about the Trine @ NPU outcome, but I'll say it anyway: What Bosko was lacking in coaching politesse with those radio comments he made up for in candor. The truth is that he was only stating what all of us CCIW folks feel, which is that our league is better than yours in basketball.

Note that in the aforementioned interview he never disrespected either Hope or Calvin themselves; the two MIAA powerhouse programs are held in very high esteem on this side of the inland sea, and they're more or less considered to be peers by all of the CCIW's programs, no matter how highly-regarded the particular CCIW programs themselves may be at any given moment. But the flip side of Hope's and Calvin's perennial success in their league is that the MIAA lacks depth year in and year out, which is what Bosko was getting at when he talked about how the Dutch and the Knights aren't going to face the same challenges that Carthage will face in January and February.

As I said, go ahead and fault him for his lack of politesse, but at least he was avoiding coachspeak and was being honest. And, yes, he's got egg on his face now because an unheralded MIAA team came into his building on Saturday and left with a win, and his Red Men currently look like a team that was vastly overrated in both the CCIW preseason coaches poll and the preseason d3hoops.com national poll. But neither that nor the CCIW's unexpectedly subpar 5-4 performance against the MIAA to date -- and, given that only North Central, Elmhurst, and Millikin have upcoming games or possible games lined up against MIAA foes, it's perfectly conceivable that the MIAA will end up winning the annual series this season for the first time in a long while -- will change the way that Bosko or any other CCIW coach, player, or fan feels about your eight-team circuit in its entirety, as opposed to its Big Two.

Maybe we'd have better perceived depth if we could play the Nathcon, Midwest and SLIAC as often as the CCIW.

oh nevermind!

Quote from: realist on December 13, 2010, 03:41:02 PM

Quote from: hoopdreams on December 13, 2010, 03:24:05 PM
Wizzy- how did I get thrown into this?  Other can commenting on poor interior defense (factual and spoken of by the coaching staff), I've been pretty upbeat and positive about Hope's team.  Haven't spread any "rumors" about players, injuries, off the court incidents, etc...If you're referring to my recent comments about Coach Hammer and his program, prove me wrong or go back and paste any recent comments that were overboard, uncalled for, or out of line.  

For the record, I don't drink, and hardly need any assistance getting a date. Besides, my better half would probably object to that.

It's called guilt by association.  In this case the extent of the association is you and I, apparently, are among the few posters that have the strenght of our convictions to post something about our party, I mean school, that differs from the established line.  My sin was pointing out the repeated lack of performance by one player.  No rumor, no speculation, just citing the stat. sheets.  If it's any solice my experience is that most Calvin posters aren't any thicker skinned (or open minded) than most Hope posters.

edited for a spelling error. 

While I have not necessarily agreed with Realists need to call out one particular player (although I admit to being stumped with the number of minutes that player gets), this long-time follower of Calvin basketball does agree with most of what he is posting.  Most posters here (and the rest of the Calvin community) seemed to have drunk too much of the KVS kool-aid over the last number of years to the point that they can not see the obvious right in front of their face.  These teams come out of the gate so painfully slow every year in November and December that they routinely shoot themselves in the foot and put themselves in the position that they have to win a Saturday night game on the last week of February in order to have any chance at playing in March.  I will grant you that most years they are playing a lot better by then as teams should, but why such a slow start?  I constantly hear KVS comment on how their defense is tough to learn, how he has so many young guys, etc.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but is Jordan Brink not the only newcomer in the rotation?  Why is there a learning curve to figure this out when 90% of the players who see any time have been through this before, whether it is one year or two or three?  I've been watching for a long time and he is not doing anything new here.  There was a day when Calvin would always beat the other local teams and I'm guessing if you asked each coach in the area today if he would trade his talent for Calvin's...each one would take you up on it.  These small college athletic scholarships are not as big a deal as the coaches would like you to believe.  Calvin has a pipeline of talent that will show up each year.  You just need to get them in shape and not screw it up.  Calvin not only use to beat the local teams routinely, they also scheduled Ferris St., Grand Valley (until GVSU refused to play them anymore), Wayne St., Georgetown of Kentucky (NAIA D1 powerhouse) and won most of these as well.  Calvin teams of the past decade play down to the level of their competition game in and game out.  It has resulted in apathy of the program in the Calvin community as I'm sure anyone who is paying any attention will notice as alumni and students stay away in mass for all game other than Hope.  It has really been sad for this hoops watcher to witness.

Quote from: thealmascots on December 13, 2010, 04:27:50 PM

Quote from: realist on December 13, 2010, 03:41:02 PM

Quote from: hoopdreams on December 13, 2010, 03:24:05 PM
Wizzy- how did I get thrown into this?  Other can commenting on poor interior defense (factual and spoken of by the coaching staff), I've been pretty upbeat and positive about Hope's team.  Haven't spread any "rumors" about players, injuries, off the court incidents, etc...If you're referring to my recent comments about Coach Hammer and his program, prove me wrong or go back and paste any recent comments that were overboard, uncalled for, or out of line.  

For the record, I don't drink, and hardly need any assistance getting a date. Besides, my better half would probably object to that.

It's called guilt by association.  In this case the extent of the association is you and I, apparently, are among the few posters that have the strenght of our convictions to post something about our party, I mean school, that differs from the established line.  My sin was pointing out the repeated lack of performance by one player.  No rumor, no speculation, just citing the stat. sheets.  If it's any solice my experience is that most Calvin posters aren't any thicker skinned (or open minded) than most Hope posters.

edited for a spelling error. 

While I have not necessarily agreed with Realists need to call out one particular player (although I admit to being stumped with the number of minutes that player gets), this long-time follower of Calvin basketball does agree with most of what he is posting.  Most posters here (and the rest of the Calvin community) seemed to have drunk too much of the KVS kool-aid over the last number of years to the point that they can not see the obvious right in front of their face.  These teams come out of the gate so painfully slow every year in November and December that they routinely shoot themselves in the foot and put themselves in the position that they have to win a Saturday night game on the last week of February in order to have any chance at playing in March.  I will grant you that most years they are playing a lot better by then as teams should, but why such a slow start?  I constantly hear KVS comment on how their defense is tough to learn, how he has so many young guys, etc.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but is Jordan Brink not the only newcomer in the rotation?  Why is there a learning curve to figure this out when 90% of the players who see any time have been through this before, whether it is one year or two or three?  I've been watching for a long time and he is not doing anything new here.  There was a day when Calvin would always beat the other local teams and I'm guessing if you asked each coach in the area today if he would trade his talent for Calvin's...each one would take you up on it.  These small college athletic scholarships are not as big a deal as the coaches would like you to believe.  Calvin has a pipeline of talent that will show up each year.  You just need to get them in shape and not screw it up.  Calvin not only use to beat the local teams routinely, they also scheduled Ferris St., Grand Valley (until GVSU refused to play them anymore), Wayne St., Georgetown of Kentucky (NAIA D1 powerhouse) and won most of these as well.  Calvin teams of the past decade play down to the level of their competition game in and game out.  It has resulted in apathy of the program in the Calvin community as I'm sure anyone who is paying any attention will notice as alumni and students stay away in mass for all game other than Hope.  It has really been sad for this hoops watcher to witness.

I'm as nostalgic as the next guy for those glorious days when Mark Veenstra and Steve Honderd told Division 1 coaches, "Thanks, but I'm going to Calvin."  I don't think you need to drink anyone's KoolAid to recognize that we're in an entirely different era, climate and economy from a generation or two ago.

Quote from: realist on December 13, 2010, 03:41:02 PM
It's called guilt by association.  In this case the extent of the association is you and I, apparently, are among the few posters that have the strenght of our convictions to post something about our party, I mean school, that differs from the established line.  My sin was pointing out the repeated lack of performance by one player.  No rumor, no speculation, just citing the stat. sheets. If it's any solice my experience is that most Calvin posters aren't any thicker skinned (or open minded) than most Hope posters.edited for a spelling error. 

Well, I just never!  How dare he say that?

Quote from: thealmascots on December 13, 2010, 04:27:50 PM

Quote from: realist on December 13, 2010, 03:41:02 PM

Quote from: hoopdreams on December 13, 2010, 03:24:05 PM
Wizzy- how did I get thrown into this?  Other can commenting on poor interior defense (factual and spoken of by the coaching staff), I've been pretty upbeat and positive about Hope's team.  Haven't spread any "rumors" about players, injuries, off the court incidents, etc...If you're referring to my recent comments about Coach Hammer and his program, prove me wrong or go back and paste any recent comments that were overboard, uncalled for, or out of line.  

For the record, I don't drink, and hardly need any assistance getting a date. Besides, my better half would probably object to that.

It's called guilt by association.  In this case the extent of the association is you and I, apparently, are among the few posters that have the strenght of our convictions to post something about our party, I mean school, that differs from the established line.  My sin was pointing out the repeated lack of performance by one player.  No rumor, no speculation, just citing the stat. sheets.  If it's any solice my experience is that most Calvin posters aren't any thicker skinned (or open minded) than most Hope posters.

edited for a spelling error. 

While I have not necessarily agreed with Realists need to call out one particular player (although I admit to being stumped with the number of minutes that player gets), this long-time follower of Calvin basketball does agree with most of what he is posting.  Most posters here (and the rest of the Calvin community) seemed to have drunk too much of the KVS kool-aid over the last number of years to the point that they can not see the obvious right in front of their face.  These teams come out of the gate so painfully slow every year in November and December that they routinely shoot themselves in the foot and put themselves in the position that they have to win a Saturday night game on the last week of February in order to have any chance at playing in March.  I will grant you that most years they are playing a lot better by then as teams should, but why such a slow start?  I constantly hear KVS comment on how their defense is tough to learn, how he has so many young guys, etc.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but is Jordan Brink not the only newcomer in the rotation?  Why is there a learning curve to figure this out when 90% of the players who see any time have been through this before, whether it is one year or two or three?  I've been watching for a long time and he is not doing anything new here.  There was a day when Calvin would always beat the other local teams and I'm guessing if you asked each coach in the area today if he would trade his talent for Calvin's...each one would take you up on it.  These small college athletic scholarships are not as big a deal as the coaches would like you to believe.  Calvin has a pipeline of talent that will show up each year.  You just need to get them in shape and not screw it up.  Calvin not only use to beat the local teams routinely, they also scheduled Ferris St., Grand Valley (until GVSU refused to play them anymore), Wayne St., Georgetown of Kentucky (NAIA D1 powerhouse) and won most of these as well.  Calvin teams of the past decade play down to the level of their competition game in and game out.  It has resulted in apathy of the program in the Calvin community as I'm sure anyone who is paying any attention will notice as alumni and students stay away in mass for all game other than Hope.  It has really been sad for this hoops watcher to witness.

Excellent point. 

Quote from: thealmascots on December 13, 2010, 04:27:50 PM

Calvin teams of the past decade play down to the level of their competition game in and game out.  It has resulted in apathy of the program in the Calvin community as I'm sure anyone who is paying any attention will notice as alumni and students stay away in mass for all game other than Hope.  It has really been sad for this hoops watcher to witness.

Hmm; are you accusing Calvinists of becoming Papists only when playing the Rivalry game? I know at least one Hope fan who would appreciate that irony.

I wouldn't dismiss small-school athletic scholarships. There's a kid from our AAU team who will be getting $30g a year from an NAIA school ... and it ain't for his book smarts.

Quote from: thealmascots on December 13, 2010, 04:27:50 PM

Calvin teams of the past decade play down to the level of their competition game in and game out.  It has resulted in apathy of the program in the Calvin community as I'm sure anyone who is paying any attention will notice as alumni and students stay away in mass for all game other than Hope.  It has really been sad for this hoops watcher to witness.

Calvin was second in D-III attendance in 2010 and would have been even if zero people showed up for the Calvin-Hope game. If that's a shame on Calvin, then that's a big shame on D-III.

Quote from: oldknight on December 13, 2010, 05:20:03 PM

Quote from: thealmascots on December 13, 2010, 04:27:50 PM

Calvin teams of the past decade play down to the level of their competition game in and game out.  It has resulted in apathy of the program in the Calvin community as I'm sure anyone who is paying any attention will notice as alumni and students stay away in mass for all game other than Hope.  It has really been sad for this hoops watcher to witness.

Hmm; are you accusing Calvinists of becoming Papists only when playing the Rivalry game? I know at least one Hope fan who would appreciate that irony.

You beat me to it.  

Or, it seems that he is accusing them of being Papists [or, if you want to be a good Calvinist and quote the Institutes, "papal dogs"] for every game except the Hope game. Of course, I like to think that the Mass and Hope are intrinsically linked.

Quote from: realist on December 13, 2010, 03:41:02 PM

Quote from: hoopdreams on December 13, 2010, 03:24:05 PM
Wizzy- how did I get thrown into this?  Other can commenting on poor interior defense (factual and spoken of by the coaching staff), I've been pretty upbeat and positive about Hope's team.  Haven't spread any "rumors" about players, injuries, off the court incidents, etc...If you're referring to my recent comments about Coach Hammer and his program, prove me wrong or go back and paste any recent comments that were overboard, uncalled for, or out of line.  

For the record, I don't drink, and hardly need any assistance getting a date. Besides, my better half would probably object to that.

It's called guilt by association.  In this case the extent of the association is thatyou and I, apparently, are among the few posters that have the strenght of our convictions to post something about our party, I mean school, that differs from the established line.  My sin was pointing out the repeated lack of performance by one player.  No rumor, no speculation, just citing the stat. sheets.  If it's any solice my experience is that most Calvin posters aren't any thicker skinned (or open minded) than most Hope posters.

edited for a spelling error. 

Not enough.

What has GK been drinking? PUNch? Does he think he's punny? Or is he just being a PUNk?

Peter DeVries, call your office: GK is on the loose.

Quote from: KnightSlappy on December 13, 2010, 05:33:32 PM

Quote from: thealmascots on December 13, 2010, 04:27:50 PM

Calvin teams of the past decade play down to the level of their competition game in and game out.  It has resulted in apathy of the program in the Calvin community as I'm sure anyone who is paying any attention will notice as alumni and students stay away in mass for all game other than Hope.  It has really been sad for this hoops watcher to witness.

Calvin was second in D-III attendance in 2010 and would have been even if zero people showed up for the Calvin-Hope game. If that's a shame on Calvin, then that's a big shame on D-III.

Calvin's attendance looks worse because it plays in such a large arena (which is in part a testament to the fact they can fill it at least once a year , sorry, I had to do that) so the place may look empty even though the number in attendance is quite high as evidenced by Calvin's annual spot in the top 3 of attendance.

GS, I agree with what you are saying. Year in and year out the CCIW is deeper than the MIAA. This year the MIAA may be up and hopefully it's a sign of a positive future but history shows the MIAA is a very top heavy league.

Quote from: HopeConvert on December 13, 2010, 05:56:28 PM
What has GK been drinking? PUNch? Does he think he's punny? Or is he just being a PUNk?

Peter DeVries, call your office: GK is on the loose.

At the moment, I'm enjoying a robust Malbec.  
Pares (cq) nicely with the feast of malapropisms we've enjoyed today.

Quote from: ChicagoHopeNut on December 13, 2010, 06:38:29 PM


Calvin's attendance looks worse because it plays in such a large arena (which is in part a testament to the fact they can fill it at least once a year , sorry, I had to do that) so the place may look empty even though the number in attendance is quite high as evidenced by Calvin's annual spot in the top 3 of attendance.

Van Noord has roughly the same number of seats as the old gym.  (in fact I think its a couple dozen less)