Whatever the reasons may be, I hope JCU is the spur that kicks the NCAC into a slightly higher gear.  The conference has really floundered against good-to-very-good competition since 2016. Let's hope this is a rising tide lifts all boats kind of thing for NCAC football. 

I have it on good authority that a frequent poster to this board is about to be inducted into the Wabash College Athletics Hall of Fame.

Congratulations, Sigma One!

Some Little Giant!

Just a question for board members "in the know". With 10 members participating in Football and 3 additional affiliates the path to post season D3 playoffs is going to become much more challehging than it was prior to the JCU addition. Geographically, Wabash and DePauw could benefit by looking at joining the HCAC. First, they would face less competition for a conference champoinship in football which could lead to a easier path to the D3 playoffs. Add the proximity of HCAC members would make it easier on the travel budget.

There is an old saying that which would you rather be? A small fish in a big pond or a big fish in a small pond. Clearly, in the HCAC, Wabash and DePauw would be big fish in a smaller pond. All of that being said do any of you "in the know", forsee any potential of Wabash and/or DePauw jumping at this opportunity? 

Welcome JCU, not only will you raise the bar on football but basketball as well.

I think, personally (and most everyone on here agrees to a certain extent), that this conference move had A LOT to do with football and playoff access.  It has been very frustrating, going back 25-30 years to have what most would consider to be a top 20 football program nationally but have the limited number of playoff berths that we have.  Mount Union being Mount Union left hardly ANY room for error.  You beat them and you're in (we did that twice while in the OAC).  You lose to them and you better run the table, go 9-1 AND hope that you get a Pool C bid.  Further, many of those 8-2 years, we gave Mount a good game but then suffered either a legit loss to an excellent team (like Whitewater) or were upset in-conference.  I expect no sympathy for those upsets but it was maddening to have such a narrow path to the playoffs and such excellent teams. It is my hope, the NCAC provides good competition but some breathing room that was just not something the OAC has with Mount Union entering their fourth decade of legendary excellence.

As for the schools closing issue, I have heard that, too, and I have also heard that there will be some economic issues which will present themselves.  True or not? I don't know.  I know BW has the $20M annual operating deficit. I have heard that Wilmington and Muskingum are facing really tough decisions about their futures, but I cannot imagine that the OAC is "on the brink"  unless you couple those "facts" with other schools getting a wandering eye for new conferences, be that the NCAC, the PAC or somewhere else. 

Does the NCAC provide more stability?  I am not sure.  The anchor schools with their billion or half-billion dollar endowments certainly provide a good foundation of stability . . .  but I cannot imagine there is not a Muskingum or Wilmington among them, if not more, who have the potential to be more adversely affected by the challenges all small colleges will face soon if not now.

All that said, I am a fan of the move because, without a hint of embarrassment am happy to dodge Mount Union in the short term and in the regular season for the betterment of the football program.  JCU is investing in football and athletics in ways not seen for generations, but, catching Mount is a different beast.  Even if we caught up with their annual spending and added the ancillary positions they have in nutrition and weight training, it is  LONG road to travel to make up for those championship trophies in the lobby, packed home stands every Saturday and a dedicated indoor practice facility.

Quote from: SPECIAL TEAMS STARTER on February 25, 2024, 11:39:53 AMJust a question for board members "in the know". With 10 members participating in Football and 3 additional affiliates the path to post season D3 playoffs is going to become much more challehging than it was prior to the JCU addition. Geographically, Wabash and DePauw could benefit by looking at joining the HCAC. First, they would face less competition for a conference champoinship in football which could lead to a easier path to the D3 playoffs. Add the proximity of HCAC members would make it easier on the travel budget.

There is an old saying that which would you rather be? A small fish in a big pond or a big fish in a small pond. Clearly, in the HCAC, Wabash and DePauw would be big fish in a smaller pond. All of that being said do any of you "in the know", forsee any potential of Wabash and/or DePauw jumping at this opportunity? 

Nope.  Wabash and DePauw intentionally left the ICAC/HCAC.  Wabash aligned with more like-minded institutions regionally in the NCAC.  DePauw, after a decade and a half of wanderlust finally found their way back to where they should have gone in the first place.  Conference affiliation isn't just about winning the football championship and these schools have a really great fit with one another. 

I think there are better chances for somebody from the HCAC coming here than the opposite. 

Quote from: Onward on, John Carroll on February 26, 2024, 11:39:12 AMI think, personally (and most everyone on here agrees to a certain extent), that this conference move had A LOT to do with football and playoff access.  It has been very frustrating, going back 25-30 years to have what most would consider to be a top 20 football program nationally but have the limited number of playoff berths that we have.  Mount Union being Mount Union left hardly ANY room for error.  You beat them and you're in (we did that twice while in the OAC).  You lose to them and you better run the table, go 9-1 AND hope that you get a Pool C bid.  Further, many of those 8-2 years, we gave Mount a good game but then suffered either a legit loss to an excellent team (like Whitewater) or were upset in-conference.  I expect no sympathy for those upsets but it was maddening to have such a narrow path to the playoffs and such excellent teams. It is my hope, the NCAC provides good competition but some breathing room that was just not something the OAC has with Mount Union entering their fourth decade of legendary excellence.

As for the schools closing issue, I have heard that, too, and I have also heard that there will be some economic issues which will present themselves.  True or not? I don't know.  I know BW has the $20M annual operating deficit. I have heard that Wilmington and Muskingum are facing really tough decisions about their futures, but I cannot imagine that the OAC is "on the brink"  unless you couple those "facts" with other schools getting a wandering eye for new conferences, be that the NCAC, the PAC or somewhere else. 

Does the NCAC provide more stability?  I am not sure.  The anchor schools with their billion or half-billion dollar endowments certainly provide a good foundation of stability . . .  but I cannot imagine there is not a Muskingum or Wilmington among them, if not more, who have the potential to be more adversely affected by the challenges all small colleges will face soon if not now.

All that said, I am a fan of the move because, without a hint of embarrassment am happy to dodge Mount Union in the short term and in the regular season for the betterment of the football program.  JCU is investing in football and athletics in ways not seen for generations, but, catching Mount is a different beast.  Even if we caught up with their annual spending and added the ancillary positions they have in nutrition and weight training, it is  LONG road to travel to make up for those championship trophies in the lobby, packed home stands every Saturday and a dedicated indoor practice facility.

Absolutely. It's easier to build into a national power when you're starting on the ground floor, not the basement

Nope.  Wabash and DePauw intentionally left the ICAC/HCAC.  Wabash aligned with more like-minded institutions regionally in the NCAC.  DePauw, after a decade and a half of wanderlust finally found their way back to where they should have gone in the first place.  Conference affiliation isn't just about winning the football championship and these schools have a really great fit with one another.

Thanks for your perspective on this Wally. Football has played such a huge role in my life it's hard for me to understand that perspective but I guess most of the OAC schools have adopted that philosophy as JCU is the first of the OAC that I am aware of to leave do to the continued dominance of Mount Union in Football.

I would be surprised if any of the HCAC schools move into the OAc as the comissioner of the OAC is concerned about D3 sports acroos the nation and therefore I believe the OAC would shy away from "robbing" the HCAC of any of their Ohio schools simply out of respect for the HCAC. With Defiance in trouble financially and leaving D3 the last thing the HCAC needs is to lose another conference member to the OAC or NCAC but time will tell.

Quote from: SPECIAL TEAMS STARTER on February 26, 2024, 08:48:09 PMThanks for your perspective on this Wally. Football has played such a huge role in my life it's hard for me to understand that perspective but I guess most of the OAC schools have adopted that philosophy as JCU is the first of the OAC that I am aware of to leave do to the continued dominance of Mount Union in Football.

I would be surprised if any of the HCAC schools move into the OAc as the comissioner of the OAC is concerned about D3 sports acroos the nation and therefore I believe the OAC would shy away from "robbing" the HCAC of any of their Ohio schools simply out of respect for the HCAC. With Defiance in trouble financially and leaving D3 the last thing the HCAC needs is to lose another conference member to the OAC or NCAC but time will tell.

I don't think we agree that John Carroll changed conferences because of football in general and because of Mount Union football specifically.  I think John Carroll changed conferences because John Carroll felt that a partnership with this collection of colleges and universities was in the long term best interest for their institution and not because this is an easier path to the football tournament. 

I don't think we agree that John Carroll changed conferences because of football in general and because of Mount Union football specifically. I think John Carroll changed conferences because John Carroll felt that a partnership with this collection of colleges and universities was in the long term best interest for their institution and not because this is an easier path to the football tournament.

I am new to the board and I really enjoy your posts and the excellent information you bring to the board. As you have pointed out we respectfully disagree with the motives that led to JCU joining the NCAC. IMHO if JCU was changing conferences in order to partner with like minded universities I would have expected them to move to the UAA rather than making what I consider to be a lateral move. I realize that you may feel differently and I certasinly respect that opinion.

That being said I am not in the room when OAC/NCAC institutions get together to discuss conference goals, mission, purpose, ect. If I was present and able to hear what is being discussed within each conference than I could end up agreeing with you on that point. I think the next 3-5 years will be interesting to see how the NCAC and the OAC do in terms of how well their sports team finish in D3 and if there is any head to head competition. I appreciate our collegial discussions and the information and perspectives you bring to this board.

JCU couldn't handle the rigors of an OAC schedule.  They probably finance their waterbed purchases.

Quote from: wally_wabash on February 28, 2024, 02:30:39 PMI don't think we agree that John Carroll changed conferences because of football in general and because of Mount Union football specifically.  I think John Carroll changed conferences because John Carroll felt that a partnership with this collection of colleges and universities was in the long term best interest for their institution and not because this is an easier path to the football tournament. 

FWIW, without speaking to JCU specifically, but having been at an institution that switched conferences, I suspect Wally is right.

Ithaca was the premier athletic program in the Empire 8 — they'd not only won the Commissioner's Cup every year since its inception, they'd typically won it in dominating fashion. But the institutions of the Liberty League matched the school much better, in terms of the types of student-athletes they were recruiting, to the makeups of the institutions themselves.

Athletics serve D3 institutions in a lot of ways that aren't really about winning the conference. It's not to say athletic success isn't expected. But at IC, for example, the yield rate for recruited student athletes is something like four times that of the non-student athletes. Retention and graduation rates are higher for athletes across the board. These realities mean that a conference affiliation switch isn't something that is solely the purview of the athletic department — let alone a single sport within the athletic department. These moves impact a lot of areas of a campus, and are typically not made for such small scope reasons like "How will our football team ever make the playoffs when we're in the conference we're in?"

Again, I'm not really speaking to JCU, just what I've observed from my time in higher education

FWIW, without speaking to JCU specifically, but having been at an institution that switched conferences, I suspect Wally is right.

This is an excellant post you've made regarding athletes and yield rates. One of the kids I coached in youth football has now graduated from college and is an assistant coach at a D3 school. He told me last summer that the major issue they are faced with where he is an assistant is getting athletes accepted into school. He feels they are "hand-cuffed" in terms of getting quality athletes into the school because the acceptance standards are so high. In the conference he is in some of the schools have lower acceptance standards and therefore are able to recruit and retain athletes that his school simply can't go after.

Also, with the number of 18 yr. olds dropping and the competition D3 schools are faced with from community colleges, D3 schools are competing for students and one of the best ways to get noticed by prospective students is through successful athletic programs. I believe that administrators have recognized this fact and are putting financial resources into athletics as a way to attract and retain better students and student athletes.

I am not familar with what all the NCAC schools are doing but I can tell you that OAC schools are investing heavily into their athletic programs. Heidelberg is in the midst of a new 28 million dollar athletic center. Muskingum has recently built a new 38 million dollar athletic complex and it is absolutely incredible what they have done. Ohio Northern has recently renovated King Horn Athletic Center and Womens Softball has a new 10M stadium. Football & LaCrosse Stadium enhancements are going on at ONU as well.

Willingness or reluctance by total conference members to invest in these types of projects may have had something to do with JCU's move?

Quote from: SPECIAL TEAMS STARTER on February 29, 2024, 01:03:31 PMThis is an excellant post you've made regarding athletes and yield rates. One of the kids I coached in youth football has now graduated from college and is an assistant coach at a D3 school. He told me last summer that the major issue they are faced with where he is an assistant is getting athletes accepted into school. He feels they are "hand-cuffed" in terms of getting quality athletes into the school because the acceptance standards are so high. In the conference he is in some of the schools have lower acceptance standards and therefore are able to recruit and retain athletes that his school simply can't go after.

This exactly. And it's not just academic standards, it's other things as well — like cost of attendance of peer institutions. Conference affiliation matters for a lot of things

This is an interesting conversation, and hard to say what JCU's motivation is.  To Special Team's original question though, Wally is right - Wabash and DePauw want nothing to do with the HCAC.  From the standpoint of on-the-field-competitiveness, to off-the-field intangibles, neither gains anything by being in the HCAC.  Both left the ICAC/HCAC 20ish years ago for good reason, and yet the NCAC was a Plan B (or C) at best for both.

If the CCIW's short-sightedness about Wabash's all-male status hadn't been an issue, both would've landed there and maintained their Chicago area presence. With three-hour drives for home games and 5+ for all other conference games becoming the norm, both Wabash and DePauw have struggled in Chicago and had other hurdles to jump in recruiting, but they've managed. 

IMHO, a few observations:
Since the day that Mount admitted a Prop 48 Non-qualifier from Ohio State, nobody really wants to play them on an annual basis,
Wabash and DPU's addition to the NCAC made things really tough for Allegheny. The PAC is a good fit,
Hiram will always struggle in the NCAC and would be a good fit for the HCAC,
Oberlin should find a new home, but they're not a fit for the for the UAA, so their options are limited. They'll keep their head down and stay where they are for as long as they're allowed.