I really appreciate the information guys like Wally, Whitecarrera and the Ithica Alum bring to the board. Just to piggy-back onto Whitecarrera's comments I am surprised that Hiram and Oberlin are not actually looking at the HCAC. I question whether it is a wise decision to send your team out every Saturday in the fall only to lose and at times lose by 70 points. By pitting your student athletes against competition, they have no chance of competing with what kind of message are you sending to your student athletes? Hiram and Oberlin would be much more competitive in the HCAC And I know it isn't all about Football but Football is arguably the most recognized aspect of a college sports program. And IMHO this is simply not fair to the Hiram and Oberlin football athletes.

The NCAC has the kinds of schools Oberlin wants to associate itself with and the HCAC doesn't. It's really just as simple as that.

Frankly I've always thought of Oberlin as the least likely college to sponsor football that does have a football program. Surprised it still exists. It would be like Bard or Reed hitting the gridiron.

Well that's Oberlin and Hiram's call and they have to set their own priorities.

First, even if they were inclined, it takes two sides to make a deal.  Oberlin and Hiram would have to be invited to join the HCAC.  That's impossible to fathom, if for no other reason the distances involved.
The only reason that Wabash, and later DPU, were invited to join the NCAC is their common mission and academic similarity to the other schools in the conference.  The NCAC has always taken great pride in the fact that all the members have Phi Beta Kappa chapters, signifying their common commitments.  I understand why John Carroll would want to join a group that from their point of view is an affiliation that puts them in good academic company.  Like Whitecarrera, I believe that we will never know all the motivations, but it seems apparent that easier access to the playoffs is a major factor for a school that has lived in Mt Union's football shadow for decades.
     I've looked, and I cannot find any place that says the Blue Streaks have a Phi Beta Kappa chapter, so maybe that lofty requirement has been set aside.  (No disrespect to JCU as a fine college.)  JCU will dominate the NCAC in football and many other sports for the immediate future, and probably long term. 
     I see no advantage for the NCAC to admit John Carroll except that they make scheduling easier for the Ohio schools.  When Allegheny jumped to the PAC, life became easier for the travel plans of Wabash and DePauw.  Now they face another long road trip.
     I take a contrary view to most other posters.  I'm not convinced that JCU coming in will raise all boats, Wally; time will tell, and I hope that I am wrong.  With an increasing number of D3 Schools facing budgetary and enrollment difficulties (the two are obviously related), reducing travel expenses (and time away from campus, including some LG and Tiger teams returning in the middle of the night or later), schools would be better served by being closer geographically.  For Wabash and DePauw coming closer to home makes sense--even in the reality of affiliating with schools that do not match their academic profile.  And Rose-Hulman certainly can stake a claim, even with new teams in the HCAC, to continuing academic superiority. 
    As I noted earlier, this is a contrary view.  The geographic angle alone makes an argument for coming back closer to home.  All this being said, there is no certainty that the HCAC would want them back after being snubbed in the distant past. 
     I welcome debate on this because I could be talked out of this view--maybe.

I have quickly become a big fan of Sarah Otey the Comissioner of the OAC. She has expressed her interest in doing what is best for D3 Sports which has led to the scheduling agreement in football that was recently announced between the OAC and the HCAC. With Defiance College's pending departure from D3 to NAIA and Wilmington College's recent financial challenges cooperative agreements between conferences like the OAC-HCAC agreement may become more important as the number of eligible students entering college continues to dwiddle. Kudos to Sarah for her forethought.

Quote from: sigma one on March 03, 2024, 06:12:59 PMFirst, even if they were inclined, it takes two sides to make a deal.  Oberlin and Hiram would have to be invited to join the HCAC. 

Such an important point.  Schools may not simply declare that they are moving in to a new conference. 

Quote from: sigma one on March 03, 2024, 06:12:59 PMI'm not convinced that JCU coming in will raise all boats, Wally; time will tell, and I hope that I am wrong. 

That's definitely aspirational on my part.  I hope JCU can set a new ceiling and target for NCAC football teams to aim for but do realize that's not happening automatically, if at all.  Trying to stay glass half full where I can. 

Wally - adding JCU may raise some boats, but I don't think all.  In fact, others might start to sink as they face the prospect of one more regularly scheduled beatdown.

Sigma is of course correct about the two sides required to make a deal, but I think the HCAC would welcome those conversations with open arms.

An interesting note: last year MSJ beat Hiram 62-21, and then proceeded to run the HCAC table by an average score of 62-18.

I know this isn't popular but Wabash and DePauw would fare much better in the HCAC than the NCAC after the addition of JCU regardless of the "like-minded" conversation. And you can bet the HCAC would jump at the chance to add either institution as Whitecarrera has pointed out. Also, it would be much easier on the travel budget for both of those schools. However, I am more concerned about Oberlin and Hiram in the NCAC. To continue to put your Football Athletes up against far superior competition week after week is simply not fair to the student atheletes nor is it in their best interests. This is not the message we should be sending to our student athletes but other than pointing this misjustice out there is little any of us can do about it.

Despite my hope that Wabash would benefit in multiple ways by coming back closer to home, I hold  little hope that the powers that be on campus agree with me.  From my side of it, what we did a quarter of a century ago when we joined the NCAC was beneficial to the College.  Now, finances, travel (related to finances), and other factors should be thought carefully about--and trump (in my view again) what I'm going to call "academic snobbery."  As Whitecarrera points out, Mt St Joseph is a force to be reckoned with in football; so is Rose-Hulman.  Hanover, Franklin, and others have been frequent opponents in the past in multiple sports.  Even if DePauw chooses to remain in the NCAC, the conference would benefit from having Wabash as a member.  With the departure of Defiance this year, the HCAC will have only 7 football-playing members:  Anderson, Bluffton, Franklin, Hanover, Manchester,  Mt St Joseph, and Rose-Hulman.  (There are more HCAC teams in other sports.)  This means they will be searching for 4 OOC games.  OOC schedules are increasingly hard to fill.  So . . .
    Do I think Wabash is interested enough to consider a move?  As I said above--doubtful to not at all.  Too bad.  Wishful thinking on my part, and I don't have a voice in the matter.   

No doubt a return to the HCAC would be economical, but Sigma's snobbery comment (maybe not the perfect word, but I know what you mean) is valid.  There's something to be said for playing other schools that are most like you, and the opposite applies when there's less and less in common (Manchester? Anderson?)

Now you're making me long for the days when Wabash was an independent.  With automatic bids and mid-year scheduling hassles, it's only a distant memory, but how nice were the years when Wabash could pick 2-3 solid games from every direction:

From the East - Dayton and Denison or OWU or Wooster
From the North - Hope and Albion
From the West - Wash U, Wheaton, IWU or Millikin
In-state - Rose and DPU

Nobody benefits from 40+ winning margins, but that's an unfortunate consequence of today's conferences.  Adding JCU might only widen the gap between the haves and have-nots.

If Wabash were in the HCAC, they could still pick up a couple of OOC games against NCAC schools or vs. Hope, Albion (both on the schedule years ago), or others in Michigan (even Trine from that conference).  Going west there is a chance to play a CCIW team. There would still be several opportunities yearly to meet up with schools academically more like the LGs.  And in a few years I'm counting on the Gentlemens' Classic to resume.
    Conversely,  as conferences pull in new members there are fewer OOC games, thus making scheduling more challenging.  (I know several eastern conference have traded schools, and that a couple have manipulated the system to allow them easier access to the playoffs.)  I like D3FB's  thinking about going to a 40 team post season, even if that extends the season by one game.   Many high schools have to play 15/16 games to win a state championship.  And it's becoming increasingly common for conferences to match up a number of their teams for an 11th game.
     Now, would the NCAA fund such expansion?  Would D3 vote for expansion?  After all, another playoff game would only affect several schools each year.   


   
   

Quote from: SPECIAL TEAMS STARTER on March 03, 2024, 03:41:32 PMAnd I know it isn't all about Football but Football is arguably the most recognized aspect of a college sports program.

Even if this were true (and I don't necessarily think it is, given that what, 40% of D3 schools don't even sponsor football?), what is the difference between being the "most" recognized sport and whatever the other sports are? What does that translate to for the college?

I think a lot of people on these board really, really, like football (many of them probably played it) but that gives them a really flawed perspective of how much it (or any one D3 sport) actually moves a college's needle. I don't know if it's because of the social circles we draw around people who like sports, or if we unconsciously think of D3 sort of like D1 where football rules all.

Not a fan of the JCU addition, and it's hard for me to fathom why the NCAC would be even remotely interested in letting them in.  The difference in commitment to football is insanely large.  JCU's website lists NINETEEN football coaches, which includes 4 quality control positions.  Nobody actually knows what "quality control" means... I guess it's a term the D1s made up so they could add extra coaches.  At the DIII level, I'm assuming it means extra recruiters.  Wabash's website lists 8 coaches (not including student assistants), and conference champ DePauw has 6.

I know the Wabash faithful have problems with the head coach and recruiting, but at some point it boils down to needing more help.  More bodies on the phones, in the high schools, writing letters, etc. etc. etc.  I doubt very much that Wabash and DePauw are interested in adding 10-12 paid coaching positions to compete for championships.  That's fine in the HCAC or (old) NCAC, but it's not going to cut it if they're trying to compete with JCU. 

I'm with you guys on this one.  I'd love to see the Tigers and LGs step up to the plate and match JCU's efforts, but neither school has done anything to show me that that's a realistic possibility.  And those are two of the better NCAC football programs.  The ADs/presidents at Oberlin and Kenyon should get locked up for conspiracy to battery after their football games with the Streaks.  Bad move for everybody except JCU.

Also, last year the Streaks won the OAC all-sports trophy on the men's side with 1st place finishes in basketball, XC, and Lacrosse, and 2nd place finishes in football, soccer, and track.  The women finished third in the all-sports standings with wins in volleyball and cross country, and 2nd place in track.  All that to say that they were competing just fine in the OAC, and this makes it feel even more football-driven than I thought before.

Very average swimmers though, which might explain why Kenyon was OK with the move.

Quote from: TigerKing on March 05, 2024, 02:41:23 PMAlso, last year the Streaks won the OAC all-sports trophy on the men's side with 1st place finishes in basketball, XC, and Lacrosse, and 2nd place finishes in football, soccer, and track.  The women finished third in the all-sports standings with wins in volleyball and cross country, and 2nd place in track.  All that to say that they were competing just fine in the OAC, and this makes it feel even more football-driven than I thought before.

Very average swimmers though, which might explain why Kenyon was OK with the move.

FWIW, JCU is the best men's athletics program in the OAC currently.  They've won the All-Sports trophy 8 straight years coming into this academic year.