Quote from: Mavchamp on May 07, 2024, 02:56:19 PM

Quote from: Kuiper on May 07, 2024, 09:56:03 AMBy the way, the last I read from someone plugged into the basketball side is that the holdup was that the ASC remaining 4 wanted the C2C to merge into the ASC, keeping the ASC name, and effectively or actually move the locus of power to Texas.  I'm sure that didn't go over well with Christopher Newport and the other C2C members.

IF this is true.... then the leadership at the ASC is even worse than I fathomed it to be.  The ASC has ZERO leverage for ANY sort of demands.  The audacity of the suggestion is mind-boggling.

The walls are closing in.  No one wants to join the ASC.  No wants to accept what's left.

So you make demands???  Really? 

Just dissolve the dang thing and end this charade.  What a JOKE.

Well, I think there's probably a good reason behind that. The ASC needs football to retain its AQ through 2025-26 (the 2-year grace period begins this year, in 24-25). If the ASC completely dissolves, the football programs in the ASC would have their AQ erased as the conference would no longer exist if it all became the C2C. From what I understand, the ASC name still needs to exist within this merger, as football is a top priority here. The C2C doesn't sponsor football and that is obviously a challenging point to this. So while it's easy to be frustrated at the lack of understanding of the situation by administrators, I do think the name aspect of this has to do with retaining that football AQ for this season and next, which I think we all want to see happen.

Quote from: Riley Zayas on May 07, 2024, 03:54:20 PM

Quote from: Mavchamp on May 07, 2024, 02:56:19 PM

Quote from: Kuiper on May 07, 2024, 09:56:03 AMBy the way, the last I read from someone plugged into the basketball side is that the holdup was that the ASC remaining 4 wanted the C2C to merge into the ASC, keeping the ASC name, and effectively or actually move the locus of power to Texas.  I'm sure that didn't go over well with Christopher Newport and the other C2C members.

IF this is true.... then the leadership at the ASC is even worse than I fathomed it to be.  The ASC has ZERO leverage for ANY sort of demands.  The audacity of the suggestion is mind-boggling.

The walls are closing in.  No one wants to join the ASC.  No wants to accept what's left.

So you make demands???  Really? 

Just dissolve the dang thing and end this charade.  What a JOKE.

Well, I think there's probably a good reason behind that. The ASC needs football to retain its AQ through 2025-26 (the 2-year grace period begins this year, in 24-25). If the ASC completely dissolves, the football programs in the ASC would have their AQ erased as the conference would no longer exist if it all became the C2C. From what I understand, the ASC name still needs to exist within this merger, as football is a top priority here. The C2C doesn't sponsor football and that is obviously a challenging point to this. So while it's easy to be frustrated at the lack of understanding of the situation by administrators, I do think the name aspect of this has to do with retaining that football AQ for this season and next, which I think we all want to see happen.

Couldn't the ASC still exist, but just have football? A one sport conference like others in other sports? The C2C does not have football, so there would be no reason to move ASC football under that umbrella. Then, they keep AQ until the clock runs out or they find other options.

Quote from: Mavchamp on May 05, 2024, 09:39:26 PM

Quote from: BSCpanthers on May 05, 2024, 10:52:32 AMI'm the ultimate "I don't have a dog in this fight" person.  Ours failed due to mismanagement.  Yours failed because no one likes you.  You're the bully in the neighborhood that complains about not having any friends, after bullying everyone in the neighborhood. 

This.

BUT.....my argument in defense of HSU and UMHB (whom ETBU has struggled against since the inception of football in 2000)..... aren't there other conferences/teams with equal or similar domination?

Mount Union?  Augustana?  Wisconsin-Whitewater?  Ithaca?

Is the same discontent found in their conferences?

The MIAC booted St Thomas recently after years of domination and differing institutional trajectories, so this type of conference conflict isn't new. St Thomas differed in that it dominated every sport (football rivaled St John's) whereas UMHB/HSU is more football specific. They are competitive but don't dominate other sports.

The SCAC will be a watered down conference.

Quote from: TheChucker on May 08, 2024, 12:26:18 AM

Quote from: Mavchamp on May 05, 2024, 09:39:26 PM

Quote from: BSCpanthers on May 05, 2024, 10:52:32 AMI'm the ultimate "I don't have a dog in this fight" person.  Ours failed due to mismanagement.  Yours failed because no one likes you.  You're the bully in the neighborhood that complains about not having any friends, after bullying everyone in the neighborhood. 

This.

BUT.....my argument in defense of HSU and UMHB (whom ETBU has struggled against since the inception of football in 2000)..... aren't there other conferences/teams with equal or similar domination?

Mount Union?  Augustana?  Wisconsin-Whitewater?  Ithaca?

Is the same discontent found in their conferences?

The MIAC booted St Thomas recently after years of domination and differing institutional trajectories, so this type of conference conflict isn't new. St Thomas differed in that it dominated every sport (football rivaled St John's) whereas UMHB/HSU is more football specific. They are competitive but don't dominate other sports.

The SCAC will be a watered down conference.

I mean, HSU has won 24 Women's soccer championships in the last 27 years (not counting this year because I'm too lazy to math).  HSU actually has 86 conference championships over the years and UMHB is in second of the currentish members with 54 (UT Tyler had 66 before they moved to D2). 

Quote from: TheChucker on May 08, 2024, 12:26:18 AM

Quote from: Mavchamp on May 05, 2024, 09:39:26 PM

Quote from: BSCpanthers on May 05, 2024, 10:52:32 AMI'm the ultimate "I don't have a dog in this fight" person.  Ours failed due to mismanagement.  Yours failed because no one likes you.  You're the bully in the neighborhood that complains about not having any friends, after bullying everyone in the neighborhood. 

This.

BUT.....my argument in defense of HSU and UMHB (whom ETBU has struggled against since the inception of football in 2000)..... aren't there other conferences/teams with equal or similar domination?

Mount Union?  Augustana?  Wisconsin-Whitewater?  Ithaca?

Is the same discontent found in their conferences?

The MIAC booted St Thomas recently after years of domination and differing institutional trajectories, so this type of conference conflict isn't new. St Thomas differed in that it dominated every sport (football rivaled St John's) whereas UMHB/HSU is more football specific. They are competitive but don't dominate other sports.

The SCAC will be a watered down conference.

And CNU was booted from the USA South because we were dominating the conference. Then teams bolted the CAC because CNU and Salisbury were dominating, thus the C2C exists.

Quote from: Etchglow on May 08, 2024, 08:00:09 AM

Quote from: TheChucker on May 08, 2024, 12:26:18 AM

Quote from: Mavchamp on May 05, 2024, 09:39:26 PM

Quote from: BSCpanthers on May 05, 2024, 10:52:32 AMI'm the ultimate "I don't have a dog in this fight" person.  Ours failed due to mismanagement.  Yours failed because no one likes you.  You're the bully in the neighborhood that complains about not having any friends, after bullying everyone in the neighborhood. 

This.

BUT.....my argument in defense of HSU and UMHB (whom ETBU has struggled against since the inception of football in 2000)..... aren't there other conferences/teams with equal or similar domination?

Mount Union?  Augustana?  Wisconsin-Whitewater?  Ithaca?

Is the same discontent found in their conferences?

The MIAC booted St Thomas recently after years of domination and differing institutional trajectories, so this type of conference conflict isn't new. St Thomas differed in that it dominated every sport (football rivaled St John's) whereas UMHB/HSU is more football specific. They are competitive but don't dominate other sports.

The SCAC will be a watered down conference.

I mean, HSU has won 24 Women's soccer championships in the last 27 years (not counting this year because I'm too lazy to math).  HSU actually has 86 conference championships over the years and UMHB is in second of the currentish members with 54 (UT Tyler had 66 before they moved to D2). 

UMHB has absolutely dominated football and have been near the top consistently in men's and women's golf but if you take away those sports we have a grand total of 14 ASC championships spread over 6 sports. We have never won a conference championship in baseball, men's cross country, men's or women's tennis, softball and don't even have a track program for men or women.

A couple of years ago I did a very simple all sports trophy calculation for the ASC based on the 21-22 school year and it was competitive. HSU, UT Dallas and UMHB were in the first tier, not far behind was ETBU, Concordia, McMurry and LeTourneau, and the bottom was Belhaven, SRS, HPU, and Ozarks. 7 of the 11 schools won a conference championship and a good reason why some of the schools were on the bottom was simply they don't field teams in as many sports.

D3 conferences are always a little bit in flux. But in the last few years we've had St Thomas booted from the MIAC, JCU has left the OAC (UMU's conference) for the NCAC, and UMHB (and the three other Baptist schools) have been left stranded. JCU I think really is mostly about mission and values, but they've spent more than a decade as a consistent second fiddle to UMU in OAC football. Correlation is not causation, and it could just be the regular ebb and flow of D3 conferences which is always happening, but it is interesting that there might be some pushback against dominant teams.

Interestingly enough, the ODAC has not pushed back against W&L, which has won the ODAC all sports men's, women's and overall trophy on a regular basis (though the men less so than the women and overall), but W&L doesn't dominate in either the big 2 sports, football or basketball. So I think it matters less to the conference overall.

Quote from: jknezek on May 08, 2024, 10:45:53 AMD3 conferences are always a little bit in flux. But in the last few years we've had St Thomas booted from the MIAC, JCU has left the OAC (UMU's conference) for the NCAC, and UMHB (and the three other Baptist schools) have been left stranded. JCU I think really is mostly about mission and values, but they've spent more than a decade as a consistent second fiddle to UMU in OAC football. Correlation is not causation, and it could just be the regular ebb and flow of D3 conferences which is always happening, but it is interesting that there might be some pushback against dominant teams.

Interestingly enough, the ODAC has not pushed back against W&L, which has won the ODAC all sports men's, women's and overall trophy on a regular basis (though the men less so than the women and overall), but W&L doesn't dominate in either the big 2 sports, football or basketball. So I think it matters less to the conference overall.

I guess it would be relevant to mention Trinity absolutely dominating the SCAC for a long time. They stood out like a sore thumb until deciding to leave. That begs question, would Trinity have stayed welcome in the SCAC for much longer given the trend for mediocrity-seeking schools?

What's more costly to ASC members: 1) joining a coastal conference like the C2C and spending WAY more in travel costs and cutting into student study time, or 2) spending more to move up to D2 or higher while simultaneously reducing tuition revenue from smaller roster sizes?

I suppose Trinity and Southwestern moving to the more prestigious SAA could be a good case study on the D3 cost option.

Would participation in a more national conference with schools like the C2C be a marketing advantage that could draw more students to those schools? There's not much precedent to go on for that analysis.

Would going D2 increase school prestige and draw more students? I'm skeptical on that one. Most D2 athletics have the atmosphere of playing in an abandoned tire plant.

Tough decision for ASC schools.

Quote from: TheChucker on May 08, 2024, 03:39:47 PMWhat's more costly to ASC members: 1) joining a coastal conference like the C2C and spending WAY more in travel costs and cutting into student study time, or 2) spending more to move up to D2 or higher while simultaneously reducing tuition revenue from smaller roster sizes?

I suppose Trinity and Southwestern moving to the more prestigious SAA could be a good case study on the D3 cost option.

Would participation in a more national conference with schools like the C2C be a marketing advantage that could draw more students to those schools? There's not much precedent to go on for that analysis.

Would going D2 increase school prestige and draw more students? I'm skeptical on that one. Most D2 athletics have the atmosphere of playing in an abandoned tire plant.

Tough decision for ASC schools.

Trinity and Southwestern are members for the Associated Colleges of the South (https://www.acsouth.edu/) of which no one else in the Texas is a member. Centenary's presence in that organization is probably why Centenary dropped from D-1 to D-3, where the ASC allowed them to arrive, in route to Centenary's desire to join their fellow ACSouth members, Trinity and Southwestern, almost 15 years. Centenary's enrollment has declined so much in recent years, they may not be able to afford the expense to join the SAA.

Quote from: Ralph Turner on May 08, 2024, 04:08:58 PM

Quote from: TheChucker on May 08, 2024, 03:39:47 PMWhat's more costly to ASC members: 1) joining a coastal conference like the C2C and spending WAY more in travel costs and cutting into student study time, or 2) spending more to move up to D2 or higher while simultaneously reducing tuition revenue from smaller roster sizes?

I suppose Trinity and Southwestern moving to the more prestigious SAA could be a good case study on the D3 cost option.

Would participation in a more national conference with schools like the C2C be a marketing advantage that could draw more students to those schools? There's not much precedent to go on for that analysis.

Would going D2 increase school prestige and draw more students? I'm skeptical on that one. Most D2 athletics have the atmosphere of playing in an abandoned tire plant.

Tough decision for ASC schools.

Trinity and Southwestern are members for the Associated Colleges of the South (https://www.acsouth.edu/) of which no one else in the Texas is a member. Centenary's presence in that organization is probably why Centenary dropped from D-1 to D-3, where the ASC allowed them to arrive, in route to Centenary's desire to join their fellow ACSouth members, Trinity and Southwestern, almost 15 years. Centenary's enrollment has declined so much in recent years, they may not be able to afford the expense to join the SAA.

The point being, Trinity and Southwestern are OK with spending a lot more in travel costs and travel time to join a more prestigious D3 conference. At the root of it, the move was done for marketing purposes. They believe the prestige benefits of the SAA over the SCAC will outweigh the additional costs for them.

The question is whether there's a net benefit for ASC schools to merge with a coastal conference over other options. Hypothetically, a conference including current ASC members, Christopher Newport and Salisbury (I don't know much about the other members except that UC Santa Cruz is a good school) could be more competitive and prestigious than what they had before the ASC blew up. The question is whether the additional cost would be worth it compared to other options.

Quote from: TheChucker on May 08, 2024, 03:39:47 PMWhat's more costly to ASC members: 1) joining a coastal conference like the C2C and spending WAY more in travel costs and cutting into student study time, or 2) spending more to move up to D2 or higher while simultaneously reducing tuition revenue from smaller roster sizes?

I suppose Trinity and Southwestern moving to the more prestigious SAA could be a good case study on the D3 cost option.

Would participation in a more national conference with schools like the C2C be a marketing advantage that could draw more students to those schools? There's not much precedent to go on for that analysis.

Would going D2 increase school prestige and draw more students? I'm skeptical on that one. Most D2 athletics have the atmosphere of playing in an abandoned tire plant.

Tough decision for ASC schools.

The C2C doesn't necessarily increase travel costs at all, since the conference tournament is optional and there are no conference games.  Even if you go to the tournament, it's a once a year trip and the location rotates among members, so it's not that much different than the trips many D3 teams make every couple of years or so.

The conference itself doesn't increase a school's profile or prestige.  The only prospective students who would ever pay attention to the C2C members are those considering another C2C school and that likely only matters for C2C schools that are near each other.  Most are in entirely different markets.  Historically, the only thing in common between C2C schools (besides the fact that they can't find a local conference who will take them) is that they tend to be small to mid-size non-flagship state universities outside of the heart of D3 country in the Northeast/upper Mid-Atlantic.  6 of the 9 schools in the C2C last year fit that description.

C2C's only purpose is to provide an avenue for an automatic bid if a team wins the championship.  In theory, that could increase a school's profile or prestige, but it would have nothing to do with being associated with the other members of the C2C. 

If the remaining ASC schools have increased travel costs because there aren't enough local teams available and willing to play them, that will be true whether they join the C2C or not.

Quote from: Kuiper on May 08, 2024, 05:02:20 PM

Quote from: TheChucker on May 08, 2024, 03:39:47 PMWhat's more costly to ASC members: 1) joining a coastal conference like the C2C and spending WAY more in travel costs and cutting into student study time, or 2) spending more to move up to D2 or higher while simultaneously reducing tuition revenue from smaller roster sizes?

I suppose Trinity and Southwestern moving to the more prestigious SAA could be a good case study on the D3 cost option.

Would participation in a more national conference with schools like the C2C be a marketing advantage that could draw more students to those schools? There's not much precedent to go on for that analysis.

Would going D2 increase school prestige and draw more students? I'm skeptical on that one. Most D2 athletics have the atmosphere of playing in an abandoned tire plant.

Tough decision for ASC schools.

The C2C doesn't necessarily increase travel costs at all, since the conference tournament is optional and there are no conference games.  Even if you go to the tournament, it's a once a year trip and the location rotates among members, so it's not that much different than the trips many D3 teams make every couple of years or so.

The conference itself doesn't increase a school's profile or prestige.  The only prospective students who would ever pay attention to the C2C members are those considering another C2C school and that likely only matters for C2C schools that are near each other.  Most are in entirely different markets.  Historically, the only thing in common between C2C schools (besides the fact that they can't find a local conference who will take them) is that they tend to be small to mid-size non-flagship state universities outside of the heart of D3 country in the Northeast/upper Mid-Atlantic.  6 of the 9 schools in the C2C last year fit that description.

C2C's only purpose is to provide an avenue for an automatic bid if a team wins the championship.  In theory, that could increase a school's profile or prestige, but it would have nothing to do with being associated with the other members of the C2C. 

If the remaining ASC schools have increased travel costs because there aren't enough local teams available and willing to play them, that will be true whether they join the C2C or not.

Thanks for the info. I had no idea the C2C schools were that loosely affiliated.

The difficulty for the ASC 4 in joining the C2C would be trying to put together enough regular-season games to fill out a schedule.  Sure, they can play each other twice, but do the SCAC schools have enough non-conference slots (and desire) to make up the rest?  So even if they don't have to travel for C2C regular season games, the ASC 4 likely have to travel more just to get games in.  Already hard enough to get teams into Texas as it is for the limited number of non-conference games that exist, don't see a lot of schools being excited/able to do it once their conference play starts.

It will be a logistical nightmare.  The other C2c schools have a lot more possibilities to work with (except UC-SC).

Quote from: Ron Boerger on May 08, 2024, 05:20:24 PMThe difficulty for the ASC 4 in joining the C2C would be trying to put together enough regular-season games to fill out a schedule.  Sure, they can play each other twice, but do the SCAC schools have enough non-conference slots (and desire) to make up the rest?  So even if they don't have to travel for C2C regular season games, the ASC 4 likely have to travel more just to get games in.  Already hard enough to get teams into Texas as it is for the limited number of non-conference games that exist, don't see a lot of schools being excited/able to do it once their conference play starts.

It will be a logistical nightmare.  The other C2c schools have a lot more possibilities to work with (except UC-SC).

I mean, if the SCAC is only willing to schedule 3 total non-conference games this year, I don't see them partnering with the ASC in the future.