Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 23, 2024, 02:13:11 PM

Quote from: SpartanHouse4 on October 23, 2024, 11:52:51 AMIm hearing more and more chatter about Aurora joining the CCIW. Anyone else hearing this?

No. In fact, I have been told repeatedly by NPU's athletic director, and as recently as early September when the CCIW voted to jettison Wash U from associate membership in football, that the CCIW is not actively searching for either a new full member (i.e., Aurora, Benedictine, Lake Forest, DePauw, etc.) or for a football-only associate member to replace Wash U in this one sport.

Unless you are hearing this "chatter" from someone on a CCIW school's athletics staff or from someone within the administration of a CCIW school who has access to president's-cabinet-level information, you are hearing nothing more than idle unsupported rumor.

Quote from: SpartanHouse4 on October 23, 2024, 11:52:51 AMAt first I was against this as AU is basically a shoe in for the playoffs each year in the NACC. But with the new playoff format, they could still make it in with a conference loss or two in the CCIW.

Really hate the NACC and hope they are joining the CCIW soon.

No offense, but this sounds like wishcasting to me.

P.S. It's shoo-in, not shoe in.

The chatter when Wash U was ousted was a football only member could be ousted if a full member was available.

Why else would the CCIW want to push Wash U out?

The way the NACC is going in football - I think AU wants to move on.

Quote from: D3Rookie on October 23, 2024, 01:47:08 PMRookie question. What drives D3 realignment? I can understand the drivers in D1 where there is so much money at stake but (to me) D3 is a mystery.

The d3sports.com article to which Pat linked above is really the best starting point to get the answer to your question. And, as Pat mentioned, hedging against school closures is a new realignment driver that has emerged since the article was written two years ago.

Good question, though, since, as you said, the reasons behind D3 realignment aren't as well-known to the public as they are for D1 realignment.

Quote from: D3Rookie on October 23, 2024, 01:47:08 PMFor example, I thought WashU was a good mutual fit with CCIW so their ouster was confusing. If Aurora were to join, why would that fit the existing CCIW members better? Why would AU want to move?

Wash U wasn't really a realignment issue, because Wash U was and is not a full member of the CCIW. Only the nine full members of the CCIW can vote upon and establish general league policy as well as add or delete associate members (the CCIW has numerous associate members in various sports besides Wash U in football, such as Loras in men's volleyball; Marian in women's bowling; Chicago in women's lacrosse; Aurora, CUW, Lakeland, and MSOE in men's wrestling, etc.). Wash U is a member of the UAA, which doesn't sponsor a number of sports, including football, forcing UAA members that do sponsor those sports to come up with alternative affiliations for those particular programs on a single-sport basis. True realignment for Wash U would involve the school's leaving the UAA, which isn't going to happen.

The speculation about Aurora joining the CCIW as a full member -- which, again, is not on the table at all right now -- centers around the league having to provide an even number of teams for scheduling purposes in all of the CCIW sports that currently include only the nine full members (men's and women's soccer, women's volleyball, men's and women's basketball, baseball, and softball, as well as the various running sports, and football starting in 2026). The CCIW's council of presidents does not view that as a sufficient reason to add a tenth full member, at least at this point. If an even number of full members was an overarching concern of the CCIW presidents, they probably would have either denied Carroll's application for re-entry into the league in 2016 or sought a partner to come into the league alongside Carroll at that time.

As to why Aurora would want to move to the CCIW, I'll leave that for the Aurora folks to discuss. All I'll say on that point is that the CCIW as a whole is generally stronger across the board in all sports in terms of competitive level and reputation than is the NACC, which is probably the motivation for folks like SpartanHouse4 to advocate for Aurora to move to the CCIW.

Quote from: robertgoulet on October 23, 2024, 02:23:04 PMNot doubting your sources, but if the exact words used were "not actively looking" I think the door to expansion is still open.

Of course. CCIW membership isn't etched in stone, as anyone who reads the CCIW's official history page is aware. But there's a big difference between being open to possibilities and active discussion among the CCIW leadership about it. From what I was told, the nine ADs of the league have talked about it -- who wouldn't, given the context of unbalanced schedules and a realignment-heavy era within D3? -- but that's it's just idle speculation on their part. They're not the decision-makers in this process; the people who are at the top of the organizational tree of each of the nine CCIW schools' administrations are the ones who make those decisions. And from what I've been told, it's not an active topic of conversation among the CCIW presidents.

Quote from: robertgoulet on October 23, 2024, 02:23:04 PMHow many times have you heard a coach or administrator say they are "not looking" to change jobs (or move conferences) but well well well look at that opportunity that just popped up I guess I'm leaving.

That's not really an apt analogy, since it's not the schools moving that control realignment, it's the leagues to which they're seeking to move. A better analogy would be a school actively courting a certain coach or administrator to be hired by that school.

Quote from: robertgoulet on October 23, 2024, 02:23:04 PMIf you're the CCIW, I don't think you HAVE to be looking (actively or passively). There will be multiple schools who will reach out about joining. They can be telling the truth that they are not looking but also be open to adding if the right opportunity presents itself, which is what I fully expect to happen.

I agree, although I'm not sure that I share the opinion that you expressed in the last phrase of your paragraph. Different leagues are in different situations. The CCIW has quite often had schools knocking on the door asking to be invited in, but it hasn't welcomed a new member since North Park back in 1962-63 (Carthage, Elmhurst, Wheaton, and Carroll all re-entered the league after leaving it earlier). A league such as the ASC may be desperate to add anybody willing to join them, but leagues such as the CCIW, the UAA, the NESCAC, etc., have the luxury of being selective (for different reasons, of course).

I'm not saying that the CCIW won't add a tenth full member -- I'd never say that -- but I am saying that the braintrust of the nine schools that make up the CCIW don't feel constrained to even consider it at the moment. A year from now, if, for example, the demographic crisis afflicting small schools in the U.S. starts to be felt as a danger to the league? Yep, expansion could very well be put on the front burner at that point.

Quote from: WUPHF on October 23, 2024, 02:29:32 PM

Quote from: robertgoulet on October 23, 2024, 02:23:04 PMNot doubting your sources, but if the exact words used were "not actively looking" I think the door to expansion is still open.

In reading and thinking about the well-written Pat Coleman story on conference expansion, I would imagine almost every conference administration is somewhere between actively looking and open to suggestions.

I think that "open to suggestions" is a sufficiently broad and safe way to describe it. I don't think that any league in intercollegiate sports, with the possible exception of the Ivy League, is in a place where it can say, "Don't even bother asking, because our minds are made up and our membership is fixed forever and ever, amen, current enrollment and fiscal crises and/or profit-driven alignments be damned."

Quote from: SpartanHouse4 on October 23, 2024, 02:47:18 PMThe chatter when Wash U was ousted was a football only member could be ousted if a full member was available.

But the CCIW ousted Wash U without even bothering to seek out a new full member. That's already happened. The CCIW is going to be a nine-team league in football starting in 2026, and the league's braintrust is fine with that -- just as it's fine with the fact that the CCIW is also a nine-team league in men's soccer, women's soccer, women's volleyball, men's basketball, women's basketball, baseball, softball, and all of the running sports, and has been so since Carroll rejoined the league eight years ago.

Quote from: SpartanHouse4 on October 23, 2024, 02:47:18 PMWhy else would the CCIW want to push Wash U out?

We had that discussion in this room in early September when the decision was announced. Without going into detail, I'll just say that Wash U's ouster has nothing to do with realignment at all.

Quote from: SpartanHouse4 on October 23, 2024, 02:47:18 PMThe way the NACC is going in football - I think AU wants to move on.

Honestly, I can understand that. Spartans football fans may feel that it's time for their program to move on to bigger and better things in terms of competition. But what often gets forgotten in the football rooms on d3boards.com is that, as far as what drives institutional decision-making regarding athletics is concerned, football is just one sport among many. It's different on the topmost level within D1, where football and men's basketball are major income sources for the entire school as a whole, and basically subsidize all of the other sports. That's not the case at all in D3, so football isn't the tail that wags the institutional dog on this level.

In short, if a school realigns, it does so with the needs of all sports in mind, not just football.

Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 23, 2024, 04:01:15 PMIn short, if a school realigns, it does so with the needs of all sports in mind, not just football.

This is certainly true.

I was looking at the Director's Cup list and Aurora was ranked quite high.  And higher than say Illinois College. 

But, if I am Augustana or Milliken or Illinois Wesleyan, I would go for a Western addition to the league over yet another Chicagoland team.

In terms of recruiting footprint, I don't think that Augie would want to give up its unique advantage in western Illinois and the Iowa communities along the river, and I doubt that Millikin and/or Illinois Wesleyan would want to share their near-monopoly in recruiting downstate and in metro St. Louis. Travel-wise, I doubt that any of the three would object to another Chicagoland team, although Augie and IWU recruit heavily in Chicagoland in all sports and I can't imagine that they'd appreciate more competition than they already have there among CCIW schools -- although circumstances might force them to settle for accepting a new Chicagoland member rather than accept worse options in terms of travel.

What I don't foresee is the league being willing to add a school that's more than a stone's throw outside of the current footprint, given how much of D3 athletic budgets are travel-related. In addition, schedules in most sports involve mid-week travel, and the league's footprint is already four hours N-S by three hours E-W as it is.  I know that distance issues have been a barrier in the past for DePauw and Rose-Hulman regarding possible CCIW membership.

I've said this before, but my read is that the optimal new member in the eyes of the CCIW's leadership would be Lake Forest. That surprises some people, since Lake Forest is not a notable regional power in any sport, but it's less about athletic prowess and more about academic prestige, location, facilities, sports currently sponsored, and financial situation. Those things would make LFC an ideal tenth member, although LFC shows no inclination whatsoever to rejoin the CCIW fold (the fact that LFC is a former CCIW member, even though the Foresters left the league six decades ago, would be an additional plus). Aurora would probably be the runner-up preferred choice. If Olivet Nazarene was willing to move from NAIA to D3 (and I've never heard of OliNaz ever entertaining such a notion) it would be a pretty good candidate as well.

Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 23, 2024, 06:03:54 PMIn terms of recruiting footprint, I don't think that Augie would want to give up its unique advantage in western Illinois and the Iowa communities along the river, and I doubt that Millikin and/or Illinois Wesleyan would want to share their near-monopoly in recruiting downstate and in metro St. Louis.

That is interesting, I guess I figured they were competing against Illinois College either way.

I was thinking about Lake Forest too and surprised to see how high they were in the Director's Cup.  The programs I follow almost never play Lake Forest.

You mention financial situation, but interestingly, the Wall Street Journal had a story about colleges at risk of closure and they had a list that included Lake Forest.  I was surprised by that.

Quote from: WUPHF on October 23, 2024, 06:57:45 PMYou mention financial situation, but interestingly, the Wall Street Journal had a story about colleges at risk of closure and they had a list that included Lake Forest.  I was surprised by that.

I am, too. Lake Forest has an endowment north of $110m. I realize that endowment figures can be deceiving, because much of the endowment could consist of directed giving that can't be used for drawdown purposes, but that's still surprising news.

A couple tweets on this topic under #d3fb.
ESPN will broadcast all preliminary round games of the 2024 D3 football playoffs on ESPN+. ESPN ultimately wants each host to provide 4 cameras but is willing to take a stair step approach for campuses to be able to meet desire (can use 2 cameras this year and gradually increase in future years).

"Why else would the CCIW want to push Wash U out?"

CCIW teams in the lower echelon (not named Wheaton or NCC) probably got tired of driving down to St. Louis to get beat and wanted a shot at the Culver's Bowl, which will now be wide open with Augustana's recent struggles. They accepted WashU into the conference thinking they would be an easy win, mid-level performer, but were surprised when WashU has finished 3rd place every year but one. Sounds like sore losers to me wanting to get rid of one of the only playoff competitors in the conference.

Quote from: bigdolphinsfan1313 on October 23, 2024, 10:22:07 PM"Why else would the CCIW want to push Wash U out?"

CCIW teams in the lower echelon (not named Wheaton or NCC) probably got tired of driving down to St. Louis to get beat and wanted a shot at the Culver's Bowl, which will now be wide open with Augustana's recent struggles. They accepted WashU into the conference thinking they would be an easy win, mid-level performer, but were surprised when WashU has finished 3rd place every year but one. Sounds like sore losers to me wanting to get rid of one of the only playoff competitors in the conference.

Nope. That's definitely not the reason why Wash U was shown the door.

Also, nobody ever thought that Wash U would be "an easy win" when the invitation to join as an associate member of the CCIW was extended. The year before Wash U was accepted into the fold the Bears went 8-3, won the SAA, and appeared in the D3 playoffs. And they had had only two losing seasons out of their previous eight campaigns prior to joining the CCIW. The consensus was that the CCIW had strengthened itself by adding the Bears, and, while nobody expected Wash U to derail the North Central juggernaut upon entering the league in 2018, nobody thought that they'd be a pushover, either.

Besides, "easy win" and "mid-level performer" are two completely different things in CCIW football.

Congrats to Luke Lehnen as he was named a finalist for the William V. Campbell trophy.  He receives an $18,000 post-grad scholarship for being a finalist and that will increase to $25,000 if he wins the trophy. Congrats as well to Robert Coury from Carnegie Mellon as the only other D3 finalist this year. The finalists will have to fly to Vegas on Tuesday, December 10th, for the ceremony. Believe that will be the Tuesday before the quarterfinal playoff games. Links below to the NCC website and on X where Luke received the news in front of the team.

https://northcentralcardinals.com/news/2024/10/23/football-lehnen-selected-as-campbell-trophy-finalist.aspx

https://x.com/NCC_Athletics/status/1849104821032243326

Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 24, 2024, 10:06:08 AMNope. That's definitely not the reason why Wash U was shown the door.

You'll have to give an alternative explanation in order to convince many fans otherwise.

It really is water under the bridge at this point.

From a fan perspective, most everyone will enjoy the new league as much as the old. 

It is true that Chicago area fans will lose the easily accessible games and alumni gatherings, but I imagine a Chicago-area non-conference game will become the goal.

Quote from: WUPHF on October 24, 2024, 11:08:09 AM

Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 24, 2024, 10:06:08 AMNope. That's definitely not the reason why Wash U was shown the door.

You'll have to give an alternative explanation in order to convince many fans otherwise.

As our resident Wash U fan, if you're fine with my disclosing the reason publicly, then I'll share it. Otherwise, as a gesture of politesse, I won't.