Between the 25% of Division III which is state schools, the eight UAA members and schools like them such as Tufts and MIT and Johns Hopkins, plus other large private schools such as Ithaca and Chapman and Catholic and the like ... Division III is not as "small liberal arts college" as people think.

The average full-time undergraduate enrollment of a school with Division III football is 2,250. And yes, WashU at 7,401 is almost 2-1/2 times larger than Oberlin at 2,978 (numbers submitted to the U.S. Department of Education) and Wabash's enrollment is smaller than a lot of schools for one statistically important reason, right?

Yes, Washington U. is large, and Wabash is small. But Division III being what it is, I would say Wabash stays competitive with the larger schools. In recent years, Wabash has been to the basketball Final 4 and came within a point of winning a team national championship in wrestling. Wabash's baseball team made the post-season tournament a few years ago, too. In earlier and in the Division III "infancy" Wabash played in the Stagg Bowl, losing to Widener. Five years later Wabash won the NCAA Division III National Championship defeating the defending national champion Potsdam State.
Coming up next year, John Carroll will join the North Coast Athletic Conference which will make the competition in all sports tougher. The following year Washington U. will be a football only affiliate making the football competition even tougher. I believe this is what the conference has needed for a long time. Going from the HCAC to the NCAC helped at the time and it took Wabash a few years before they became competitive with Wittenberg in football and Wooster in basketball.
It is my opinion that teams that have dominated for several years have benefited more from strong conference competition than their size. Also in recent years Wabash, when they have had time to search the country for strong coaching candidates, they have been successful.  Wabash has also done a better job of recruiting athletes that not only perform well in the classroom, but the athletic field as well. I have been around for the last 55 years of Wabash athletics and that is the background of which I speak. 

Quote from: Pat Coleman on October 24, 2024, 01:46:51 PMBetween the 25% of Division III which is state schools, the eight UAA members and schools like them such as Tufts and MIT and Johns Hopkins, plus other large private schools such as Ithaca and Chapman and Catholic and the like ... Division III is not as "small liberal arts college" as people think.

The average full-time undergraduate enrollment of a school with Division III football is 2,250. And yes, WashU at 7,401 is almost 2-1/2 times larger than Oberlin at 2,978 (numbers submitted to the U.S. Department of Education) and Wabash's enrollment is smaller than a lot of schools for one statistically important reason, right?

Definitely true when discussing enrollment, Wabash needs adjusted for comparative purposes.  Probably lands in the 2,000-2,200 range (still way shy of Washington, whose enrollment isn't surprising after driving past their campus this past summer, but much closer to the average).

Quote from: Pat Coleman on October 24, 2024, 01:46:51 PMDivision III is not as "small liberal arts college" as people think.

A fair point, but I'll remind you we're on the region 4 board where there are no public schools, and while not all of the colleges in our region are considered "liberal arts" nearly all of them are small by most standards, so at least one whole region of the D3 football world meets that criteria. And given the schools you mentioned above, that still leaves 2/3 to 60% as small private schools? Probably more state/big schools than I picture in my head, but also not the majority of institutions by any means.

My point wasn't that Wabash should be scared or intimidated or anything else. Wabash has, historically, held their own against much larger institutions and in many cases more (1905 Notre Dame- Wabash College victory anyone?, Wabash vs CWRU in the playoffs in the 21st century). That's how we became "little" giants.

D3 is the big tent of divisions, with many of the schools sharing little in common outside of being in the same division. My point was meant to be a remark that conferences tend to find like minded institutions to partner with, and while Wash U. and the rest of the UAA are fantastic academic institutions, they don't really share much in the way of missions with the NCAC beyond the basics. Looking at the academic affiliations, the only overlap between Wabash and Wash U is membership in NAICU. In D3 football, winning your conference is the one thing that everyone has a shot at, and the one way to make sure you get a shot in the playoffs. Having the teams you play share similar admissions standards, endowments, enrollments, fin aid, etc. are the best chance we have at ensuring things stay competitive.

So, while we're more than happy to have them as associates in football, you can see why they'd look to partner more generally with similar sized and missioned institutions for everything else. I think the UAA, generally, has been lucky enough to find some temporary homes for their football programs, but you have to think that football makes for some unique situations to fit programs that don't otherwise fit.

Football-wise Chicago in the MWC, CWRU and CM in the PAC, even to some extent JHU(I know not in the UAA but generally) in the centennial all stand out as not really fitting the profile of the other teams in their conferences - admittedly that's maybe why the UAA exists. Whereas the WIAC, NJAC, SUNYAC are all conferences where those larger/public schools meet up, so there are just multiple school of thoughts on how to build your conferences.

As with multiple conferences in D3 and D1, tradition and maybe common sense have been lost.

Wabash is Male only also.  Most of the other schools are co-ed.

Agree the expansion with Wash U is interesting, but we are also getting into the home stretch of league play this season.  Curious to hear any thoughts.

Witt always plays DePauw tough and has won on its last three trips to Greencastle.  The game also went to OT last year in Springfield before DePauw prevailed.  Witt seems to be switching QBs.  Any expectations for this one?

'bash should have another easy time with Kenyon, although it will be interesting to see how the solid Owl defense holds up against a formidable offense. 

Welcome any thoughts on 2024 NCAC action, in addition to those looking to 2025 and 2026!

Quote from: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on October 25, 2024, 11:14:24 AMWabash is Male only also.  Most of the other schools are co-ed.

Not something I neglected. Wabash is just one team in the NCAC. Using the US News enrollment stats for undergrads, Wash U has 8267 which is still at least 2 times larger, and almost three times larger than any other coed NCAC school, with Oberlin being ~3000 it's close to 3 times larger and is about 5.5 times larger than say OWU at ~1500. So anywhere between 2.8 to 5.5 times larger than all of the schools in the conference(not counting Wabash or Hiram at all).

That's only counting undergraduates. Now, it's something that will go away eventually (I think next year), but all of the super seniors that have been around since the pandemic would also matter if you're thinking about the nearly 9,000 graduates at Wash U. and how most of the NCAC has very few graduate students and some with none.

No one ever said d3 sports are balanced, and I'm not going to pretend they are, or say they should be. They're unbalanced for multiple reasons, size of a school being one of them.

It just makes me chuckle a bit when you look at how colleges end up with associate members and how they otherwise do not fit the bill of the other schools at all. Northland College as an affiliate member of the WIAC for hockey, for instance. As a small liberal arts college with just over 500 students, they're 11 times smaller than UWRF (the smallest permanent WIAC school) and 29.5 times smaller than UW-Oshkosh the largest.

Quote from: DePauwalum05 on October 25, 2024, 11:26:56 AMWelcome any thoughts on 2024 NCAC action

I'll be interested to see Witt vs. DPU this weekend, although I don't suspect it'll be close. It'll be interesting to see how things look headed into the bell week. Wabash has all of their toughest conference games on the tail end, whereas it's a bit opposite for DPU. 

The NCAC has tiered a bit this year, with a very bad bottom, a competitive middle section, and then a few teams near the top. I think we'll know a lot more after Nov. 2 about if anyone can push DPU, as we'll have Wabash vs Denison head to head results and Witt vs DPU results.

Quote from: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on October 25, 2024, 11:14:24 AMWabash is Male only also.  Most of the other schools are co-ed.

Most?  All but two other schools in the country are co-ed.

Quote from: LG67 on October 25, 2024, 08:49:02 AMAs with multiple conferences in D3 and D1, tradition and maybe common sense have been lost.

Division III conferences are trying to protect against schools closing.

Quote from: maripp2002 on October 25, 2024, 11:49:15 AM

Quote from: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on October 25, 2024, 11:14:24 AMWabash is Male only also.  Most of the other schools are co-ed.

Not something I neglected. Wabash is just one team in the NCAC. Using the US News enrollment stats for undergrads, Wash U has 8267 which is still at least 2 times larger, and almost three times larger than any other coed NCAC school, with Oberlin being ~3000 it's close to 3 times larger and is about 5.5 times larger than say OWU at ~1500. So anywhere between 2.8 to 5.5 times larger than all of the schools in the conference(not counting Wabash or Hiram at all).

We always just use full-time undergraduates as enrollment numbers.

What specifically are D3 conferences doing to protect against closing?

Quote from: LG67 on October 26, 2024, 09:24:43 AMWhat specifically are D3 conferences doing to protect against closing?

They are adding more members. They can't keep a school from closing but they can keep a conference alive by making sure you have well more than the minimum number of schools needed to get an AQ.

I would have loved to have had this Wabash defense last year on that team. That would have been a Top 25 team - no doubt.