Quote from: unionpalooza on November 05, 2024, 01:20:18 PMAs an aside, I got curious the other day about update NY football in the larger D3 context.  Over the past 24 years, there are now fewer than 7 programs in upstate that have Cortland, Brockport, SFJ, Ithaca, Union, Hobart, and RPI that have significant success.  All seven had at least 3 10-win seasons over that period and advanced to the second round of the NCAAs at least three times.  Union, Ithaca, RPI, Hobart and Brockport all have three 10-win seasons; Cortland has four and SJF has six.  In terms of the NCAAs, Cortland obviously went the farthest, but RPI, Brockport and SJF have all played in national semifinal games.

Not bad for an upstate NY region with six million people and a crowded mix of 15 D3 programs.  Ohio has double the population but only 18 schools, and only three programs with similar success (Mt. Union, JCU and Wittenberg.). Illinois has double the population but 17 programs and only two programs with similar success (NCU and Wheaton).  Minnesota has a similar population and number of D3 schools but only two with similar success (St. John's and Bethel), plus St. Thomas once upon a time.  Michigan has ten D3 schools and no program with similar success.  Wisconsin, on the other hand, is a beast.  I didn't bother to check PA, but suspect it looks more like upstate NY.

At any rate, this is all very nerdy, but I've always wondered whether one reason that upstate NY consistently produced good but not national-champion caliber programs was the extent to which there are a bunch of strong competing programs that cannibalize one another, and that does seem to be true to some extent.

Palooza this is an excellent post. Thanks for taking the time to look into this information and sharing it with us. I love info like this. Thank you.

Quote from: Ice Bear on November 06, 2024, 11:29:41 AM

Quote from: unionpalooza on November 05, 2024, 01:20:18 PMAs an aside, I got curious the other day about update NY football in the larger D3 context.  Over the past 24 years, there are now fewer than 7 programs in upstate that have Cortland, Brockport, SFJ, Ithaca, Union, Hobart, and RPI that have significant success.  All seven had at least 3 10-win seasons over that period and advanced to the second round of the NCAAs at least three times.  Union, Ithaca, RPI, Hobart and Brockport all have three 10-win seasons; Cortland has four and SJF has six.  In terms of the NCAAs, Cortland obviously went the farthest, but RPI, Brockport and SJF have all played in national semifinal games.

Not bad for an upstate NY region with six million people and a crowded mix of 15 D3 programs.  Ohio has double the population but only 18 schools, and only three programs with similar success (Mt. Union, JCU and Wittenberg.). Illinois has double the population but 17 programs and only two programs with similar success (NCU and Wheaton).  Minnesota has a similar population and number of D3 schools but only two with similar success (St. John's and Bethel), plus St. Thomas once upon a time.  Michigan has ten D3 schools and no program with similar success.  Wisconsin, on the other hand, is a beast.  I didn't bother to check PA, but suspect it looks more like upstate NY.

At any rate, this is all very nerdy, but I've always wondered whether one reason that upstate NY consistently produced good but not national-champion caliber programs was the extent to which there are a bunch of strong competing programs that cannibalize one another, and that does seem to be true to some extent.

Palooza this is an excellent post. Thanks for taking the time to look into this information and sharing it with us. I love info like this. Thank you.

So well done! Thanks for gathering that info. Really cool to see the level of success our Upstate teams have had.

Now I'm starting to wonder how many times an Upstate NY team got to play one of the low end New England AQ teams (MASCAC, ECFC) and essentially picked up a first round bye? - Taking nothing away from them (you can only play who the committee says you're playing) but I think there is some level of geographic benefit to being within 500 miles of the AQ teams from those two leagues in particular.

Quote from: NED3Guy on November 06, 2024, 12:01:49 PM

Quote from: Ice Bear on November 06, 2024, 11:29:41 AM

Quote from: unionpalooza on November 05, 2024, 01:20:18 PMAs an aside, I got curious the other day about update NY football in the larger D3 context.  Over the past 24 years, there are now fewer than 7 programs in upstate that have Cortland, Brockport, SFJ, Ithaca, Union, Hobart, and RPI that have significant success.  All seven had at least 3 10-win seasons over that period and advanced to the second round of the NCAAs at least three times.  Union, Ithaca, RPI, Hobart and Brockport all have three 10-win seasons; Cortland has four and SJF has six.  In terms of the NCAAs, Cortland obviously went the farthest, but RPI, Brockport and SJF have all played in national semifinal games.

Not bad for an upstate NY region with six million people and a crowded mix of 15 D3 programs.  Ohio has double the population but only 18 schools, and only three programs with similar success (Mt. Union, JCU and Wittenberg.). Illinois has double the population but 17 programs and only two programs with similar success (NCU and Wheaton).  Minnesota has a similar population and number of D3 schools but only two with similar success (St. John's and Bethel), plus St. Thomas once upon a time.  Michigan has ten D3 schools and no program with similar success.  Wisconsin, on the other hand, is a beast.  I didn't bother to check PA, but suspect it looks more like upstate NY.

At any rate, this is all very nerdy, but I've always wondered whether one reason that upstate NY consistently produced good but not national-champion caliber programs was the extent to which there are a bunch of strong competing programs that cannibalize one another, and that does seem to be true to some extent.

Palooza this is an excellent post. Thanks for taking the time to look into this information and sharing it with us. I love info like this. Thank you.

So well done! Thanks for gathering that info. Really cool to see the level of success our Upstate teams have had.

Now I'm starting to wonder how many times an Upstate NY team got to play one of the low end New England AQ teams (MASCAC, ECFC) and essentially picked up a first round bye? - Taking nothing away from them (you can only play who the committee says you're playing) but I think there is some level of geographic benefit to being within 500 miles of the AQ teams from those two leagues in particular.

I don't think that assessment is necessarily accurate. I don't view Springfield or Endicott as 'layups' at all. The others are a different story, but only Husson is in the list below once. It makes geographical sense, but it doesn't happen regularly as NY is pretty central to a lot of other options. The LL has had a decent postseason showing. Just looking at the last few years(LL only):

2023
Ithaca beat Springfield and lost to Randolph-Macon who lost to Cortland in the Final 4.
Union beat Delaware Valley and lost to Johns Hopkins who lost to Randolph-Macon in the Final 8.

2022
Ithaca beat Springfield and lost to National Champ North Central

2021
RPI beat Endicott, beat Cortland, lost to National Runner-Up North Central

2019
Union beat Case Western Reserve and lost to Salisbury who lost to Muhlenburg In Rd 3.

2018
RPI beat Husson, beat Brockport, and lost to Johns Hopkins who lost to Mt. Union in the Final 4.

2017
RPI lost to Wesley who lost to Brockport in Rd 2.

2016
Hobart lost to Mount Union


With all of this said, I kind of get the pollsters not ever really knowing who is coming out of the LL early on...That's fair. But now they know it's Hobart, and they should be ranked. It's a carousel in this conference every year for the league champ, but any of the top 4-5 could and do beat 'Top 25' teams, every. single. year.

Quote from: Bartman on November 06, 2024, 08:14:40 AM

Quote from: unionpalooza on November 05, 2024, 01:20:18 PMAs an aside, I got curious the other day about update NY football in the larger D3 context.  Over the past 24 years, there are now fewer than 7 programs in upstate that have Cortland, Brockport, SFJ, Ithaca, Union, Hobart, and RPI that have significant success.  All seven had at least 3 10-win seasons over that period and advanced to the second round of the NCAAs at least three times.  Union, Ithaca, RPI, Hobart and Brockport all have three 10-win seasons; Cortland has four and SJF has six.  In terms of the NCAAs, Cortland obviously went the farthest, but RPI, Brockport and SJF have all played in national semifinal games.

Not bad for an upstate NY region with six million people and a crowded mix of 15 D3 programs.  Ohio has double the population but only 18 schools, and only three programs with similar success (Mt. Union, JCU and Wittenberg.). Illinois has double the population but 17 programs and only two programs with similar success (NCU and Wheaton).  Minnesota has a similar population and number of D3 schools but only two with similar success (St. John's and Bethel), plus St. Thomas once upon a time.  Michigan has ten D3 schools and no program with similar success.  Wisconsin, on the other hand, is a beast. I didn't bother to check PA, but suspect it looks more like upstate NY.

At any rate, this is all very nerdy, but I've always wondered whether one reason that upstate NY consistently produced good but not national-champion caliber programs was the extent to which there are a bunch of strong competing programs that cannibalize one another, and that does seem to be true to some extent.

Unionpalooza, you deserve a graduate degree in D3 football analysis. This post is one reason I really enjoy this board .

  You left us hanging there, so I went ahead and checked: PA has roughly double the population and 28 D3 programs. I admit to being too lazy to check their level of success

2023
Ithaca beat Springfield and lost to Randolph-Macon who lost to Cortland in the Final 4.
Union beat Delaware Valley and lost to Johns Hopkins who lost to Randolph-Macon in the Final 8.

2022
Ithaca beat Springfield and lost to National Champ North Central

2021
RPI beat Endicott, beat Cortland, lost to National Runner-Up North Central

2019
Union beat Case Western Reserve and lost to Salisbury who lost to Muhlenburg In Rd 3.

2018
RPI beat Husson, beat Brockport, and lost to Johns Hopkins who lost to Mt. Union in the Final 4.

2017
RPI lost to Wesley who lost to Brockport in Rd 2.

2016
Hobart lost to Mount Union


Thanks Mach for your post and insight. By the way, the last time Hobart was in the playoffs was 2016 when they had a home game against Mount Union(Really!). Led by Shane Sweeney at QB on a very windy day , Hobart was actually tied 21-21 with Mount Union with 5 minutes to go  in the third quarter. Mount Union came back and put the game away 38-21 but it was cool to host Mount    Union in the tournament. I don't know how we will do this year but I wish the process could give us a home game to host if possible.

Except...the LL hasn't beaten any top 25 teams this year. Which is, presumably why they do not have anyone in the Top 25

Quote from: IC798891 on November 06, 2024, 07:04:54 PMExcept...the LL hasn't beaten any top 25 teams this year. Which is, presumably why they do not have anyone in the Top 25

Springfield is getting 30 votes and their schedule looks like they are playing the Massachusetts High School Division 6 JV schedule. The pollsters should understand where the LL stands by now. It falls on deaf ears. Whatever. It is what it is.

Quote from: Machiavelli on November 07, 2024, 10:12:22 AM

Quote from: IC798891 on November 06, 2024, 07:04:54 PMExcept...the LL hasn't beaten any top 25 teams this year. Which is, presumably why they do not have anyone in the Top 25

Springfield is getting 30 votes and their schedule looks like they are playing the Massachusetts High School Division 6 JV schedule. The pollsters should understand where the LL stands by now. It falls on deaf ears. Whatever. It is what it is.

I know LL people have been clinging to SOS for awhile now but....they lost. Every time the LL has had a chance to beat a Top 25 team, they've lost. Sometimes in close, frustrating fashion (IC/RPI vs. Endicott, Hobart vs. Randolph Macon, IC vs. Hopkins) and sometimes getting boat raced (RPI vs. Lacrosse, Union vs. Springfield, IC vs. Cortland in two weeks)

Handle your ****. Win your big games.

Quote from: Machiavelli on November 07, 2024, 10:12:22 AM

Quote from: IC798891 on November 06, 2024, 07:04:54 PMExcept...the LL hasn't beaten any top 25 teams this year. Which is, presumably why they do not have anyone in the Top 25

Springfield is getting 30 votes and their schedule looks like they are playing the Massachusetts High School Division 6 JV schedule. The pollsters should understand where the LL stands by now. It falls on deaf ears. Whatever. It is what it is.

The Liberty League is not guaranteed to be there every year, though. This year, as IC798891 says, the LL has lost all of those games.

Quote from: Pat Coleman on November 07, 2024, 10:47:51 AM

Quote from: Machiavelli on November 07, 2024, 10:12:22 AM

Quote from: IC798891 on November 06, 2024, 07:04:54 PMExcept...the LL hasn't beaten any top 25 teams this year. Which is, presumably why they do not have anyone in the Top 25

Springfield is getting 30 votes and their schedule looks like they are playing the Massachusetts High School Division 6 JV schedule. The pollsters should understand where the LL stands by now. It falls on deaf ears. Whatever. It is what it is.

The Liberty League is not guaranteed to be there every year, though. This year, as IC798891 says, the LL has lost all of those games.

Come on now. Who has Springfield beat? Their opponents are a combined 27-36 which is drastically skewed with Husson being 6-2(lost to Springfield 76-7 and friggin Anna Maria!!!) and WPI being 5-3 who lost to Springfield 51-7 and the lowly 3-5 RPI team also 51-7. Hobart has a single loss in OT to a team that was ranked 10th at the time and is currently 7-1. All of that certainly spells Springfield 30 votes, Hobart 1 vote.

Make it make sense.

30 points is definitely a lot for someone who has objectively played nobody. The AFCA ranks them 20th.

The 30 points in our poll break down as follows: SIDs 16, coaches 12, media 2, me zero.

Quote from: Pat Coleman on November 07, 2024, 11:06:08 AM30 points is definitely a lot for someone who has objectively played nobody. The AFCA ranks them 20th.

The 30 points in our poll break down as follows: SIDs 16, coaches 12, media 2, me zero.

I can appreciate that response. Seems you see where I'm coming from.

Quote from: Machiavelli on November 07, 2024, 11:12:58 AM

Quote from: Pat Coleman on November 07, 2024, 11:06:08 AM30 points is definitely a lot for someone who has objectively played nobody. The AFCA ranks them 20th.

The 30 points in our poll break down as follows: SIDs 16, coaches 12, media 2, me zero.

I can appreciate that response. Seems you see where I'm coming from.

I do.

It only takes one or two voters to skew those numbers: One coach ranked Springfield 17th. One SID ranked them 18th. Those two people -- 8% of the panel -- account for more than half of the points. (Plus the NEWMAC voter has them 20th.) But, that's not enough to get a team ranked.

Quote from: Pat Coleman on November 07, 2024, 11:23:24 AM

Quote from: Machiavelli on November 07, 2024, 11:12:58 AM

Quote from: Pat Coleman on November 07, 2024, 11:06:08 AM30 points is definitely a lot for someone who has objectively played nobody. The AFCA ranks them 20th.

The 30 points in our poll break down as follows: SIDs 16, coaches 12, media 2, me zero.

I can appreciate that response. Seems you see where I'm coming from.

I do.

It only takes one or two voters to skew those numbers: One coach ranked Springfield 17th. One SID ranked them 18th. Those two people -- 8% of the panel -- account for more than half of the points. (Plus the NEWMAC voter has them 20th.)

I suppose if you go to a race of Honda Accords and one blows everyone away, it would appear to be the fastest car in the world. When that Lightning McQueen races a few Lamborghini's...well, you know what I'm saying.

I'd love Hobart to play Springfield and end this debate. I don't care what the polls say except for the one the committee uses, and that is more favorable to Hobart.