Quote from: Mr_November on November 18, 2024, 09:20:34 AM

Quote from: eaglesoccerdad on November 18, 2024, 08:51:05 AMReferee mistakes/errors are part of the game - humans are imperfect. I have seen poorly officiated games by supposed D1 and MLS refs. No trying to minimize the impact that some errors can have (I recall a stone cold handling violation not called in a semifinal two years ago) but at the end of the day I would bet that most of the players would point to the opportunties that they did not take instead of a referee error for why the game was not won.

I can understand this POV to an extent - but when the margins are so fine and so tight in an NCAA tournament match, I think a glaring refereeing mistake overrides your disappointment at missed chances, since its an element of the match that is not within your control.

Players can accept missed chances and poor defending, as its easier to take ownership of those moments (as it is within a player's control).

Agreed. That said, I don't think my son is perseverating over that call as much as we are. He is a senior and is busy mourning the end of a career. I'm sure there are many memories of poor refs in there somewhere (including a ref he would get perennially at Stewart Field who explicitly told him he had it out for him and indeed handed him YCs in every match he officiated), but our hope is that there are many, many more that do not involve men in brightly colored shorts waving flags.

Good luck to everyone left in the tournament. These are special years for all our players. 

Also a former referee, player, parent and still a fan of the game as well as a sometimes disinterested party, I I've looked at these games from many different perspectives.

Ultimately imo, it is about control. Two teams meet in a tournament, one is going to come out the winner. Control what you can control which comes down to putting the ball in the back of the net. Stuff happens. All the teams who got the 2nd round of the NCAAs have had great seasons. Through 17 plus games this year, they've beaten out 375 teams in D3 to make it to this point.

Quote from: jknezek on November 18, 2024, 08:35:14 AM

Quote from: wihsuafs24 on November 18, 2024, 08:20:10 AM

Quote from: Kuiper on November 17, 2024, 04:27:07 PMColorado College almost ties it up in the 54th minute, but the ref blows the whistle on a yellow card foul instead of playing advantage and a goal scored is negated.  CC players have a right to be upset about not playing on, but once the ref blows the whistle it's over. 

CMS is pinned back now.  It's been one way traffic for awhile as Colorado College has dialed up the pressure in search of the equalizer.

A lot of talk about "game changing" ref errors on the board, but this one takes the cake. First, the foul happened arguably in or at the edge of the box, and the ensuing goal happened immediately thereafter. Second, the ref immediately told the players he "f'd" up by blowing his whistle prematurely.  His words.  In the 54th minute.  ... I guess in D3 soccer this is what we get.

That's kind of what happens everywhere. Refs are people. People make mistakes. Watch an NFL game and see how many times those ref's miss something. Or a World Cup match. Even at the highest levels, the "hand of god" play can somehow happen. Or Lampard's non-goal.

It sucks. Especially when it explicitly affects the outcome of a game. As a former ref I know I made wrong calls. We all try not to, but it happens. It's unavoidable. I always felt players and fans have the right to grumble and complain, but not be abusive.

So far all I've heard are grumbles and complaints, so I say have at it. It's a long season and it doesn't deserve to end because of mistakes, but that's a darn good life lesson because, as we all know and our parents told us many times, life isn't fair.

All a ref can do is his/her best. We are always in desperate need of refs, especially these days as it feels like parents and spectators have worse and worse behavior, so if you think you can do better, I encourage you to take the classes, work your way up the ranks, and get involved with these matches. It's not easy, but the game needs people to take on the challenge and, all too often these days, the abuse, in order for the game to stay alive.

This needs to be reiterated a thousand times over.

Quote from: blooter442 on November 17, 2024, 08:00:46 PM

Quote from: Garden12 on November 17, 2024, 07:55:25 PMIs it possible that the Hopkins style of play just doesn't work in the tournament? Their endless possession just doesnt seem to consistently create chances against teams that are solid defensively. Maybe they sometimes make a small run but I could never see them winning the 6/6 needed to win a tournament.

This reminds me of "why does Guardiola's City run the PL winning 6 of the last 7 but only win the CL once?" Controlled possession is usually a safer bet over the course of a league season, but it can be countered in knockout situations by the right tactics and/or a little bit of luck (e.g. Chelsea in the UCL final of 2021).

Funny you mention Pep, as he is one of Coach Appleby's guiding lights. (Per an interview with Simple Coach.) Beyond the possession style, an under-reported aspect of a Guidiola team is the extreme urgency they place on immediately retrieving the ball after a turnover. Hopkins is very pesky in this regard.

To W&L's credit, they were very good about shrugging off this pressure and doing their own thing, especially in the first half. The pressure started paying off more in the second half and OTs.

Williams v Washington & Lee will be a mouth watering match-up.

I thought W&L's game management vs. Otterbein in the first round was quite good. I would favor Williams to advance but I do think W&L have a silent confidence about them. They know how to get a job done. #8 is the epitome of this silent bravado/charisma, IMO.

Furthermore, if Dickinson advances, it would be interesting to see how they fare vs Williams (should they both happen to meet in the Elite 8). Williams have a stout defense, but can they shut down Iwowo and Jarden, and keep them quiet for a full match?

W&L vs. Dickinson would also be a fascinating Elite 8 match-up.

Of course, I am not sleeping on Buffalo State, who came out victorious over the mighty (though underperforming) Jumbos. I simply haven't seen any Buff State games this season. Will be interested to see how they do vs. Dickinson in the Sweet 16.

In response to Fitz's comment about the fouls committed by nescac sides in comparison to normies:

Fouls are a part of the sport. In fact, fouling is an important tactic that it practiced and coached at the highest level. I don't think we should shine a negative light on it, as Fitz aimed to do--especially when these teams are coming from the most physical conference in the country and are used to refs that often times let them play. Not to mention, these same teams continue to dominate division 3 soccer.

During last year's NBA season, critics were pointing out the Celtics high volume of 3-point shooting, scoffing at their decision to chuck up 3s rather than getting to the paint or posting guys up. This season, the majority of teams are shooting significantly more 3s after watching Boston skip through the playoffs on their way to an 18th championship for the franchise. Even the Celtics have upped their volume to start the year.

Though an imperfect analogy (fouls and 3-pointers are quite different), I think Messiah and other normies can take something from this. Rather than hang your hat on fouling less than other teams, why not coach fouling? Any Nescac team would have immediately fouled the Williams player during that counter attack (or at least tried to) and they probably could've saved a goal.

Quote from: Dustin_Patrón on November 18, 2024, 10:22:40 AMIn response to Fitz's comment about the fouls committed by nescac sides in comparison to normies:

Fouls are a part of the sport. In fact, fouling is an important tactic that it practiced and coached at the highest level. I don't think we should shine a negative light on it, as Fitz aimed to do--especially when these teams are coming from the most physical conference in the country and are used to refs that often times let them play. Not to mention, these same teams continue to dominate division 3 soccer.

During last year's NBA season, critics were pointing out the Celtics high volume of 3-point shooting, scoffing at their decision to chuck up 3s rather than getting to the paint or posting guys up. This season, the majority of teams are shooting significantly more 3s after watching Boston skip through the playoffs on their way to an 18th championship for the franchise. Even the Celtics have upped their volume to start the year.

Though an imperfect analogy (fouls and 3-pointers are quite different), I think Messiah and other normies can take something from this. Rather than hang your hat on fouling less than other teams, why not coach fouling? Any Nescac team would have immediately fouled the Williams player during that counter attack (or at least tried to) and they probably could've saved a goal.

I think we're seeing two contrasting philosophies in sports ethics. NESCAC schools operate out of a mode where you must "win at all costs" rather than "winning the right way". Messiah prides themselves on winning with class and sportsmanship, whereas NESCAC schools don't mind a bit of gamesmanship to get the job done. I don't take issue with either approach. It all just depends on your sports ethics philosophy.

Not sure the 3 point analogy works with soccer, to be completely honest.

If you like to look at some great goals and some pk saves, check this out if you have not already. https://www.instagram.com/div3footy/?hl=en

Quote from: Dustin_Patrón on November 18, 2024, 10:22:40 AMIn response to Fitz's comment about the fouls committed by nescac sides in comparison to normies:

Fouls are a part of the sport. In fact, fouling is an important tactic that it practiced and coached at the highest level. I don't think we should shine a negative light on it, as Fitz aimed to do--especially when these teams are coming from the most physical conference in the country and are used to refs that often times let them play. Not to mention, these same teams continue to dominate division 3 soccer.

During last year's NBA season, critics were pointing out the Celtics high volume of 3-point shooting, scoffing at their decision to chuck up 3s rather than getting to the paint or posting guys up. This season, the majority of teams are shooting significantly more 3s after watching Boston skip through the playoffs on their way to an 18th championship for the franchise. Even the Celtics have upped their volume to start the year.

Though an imperfect analogy (fouls and 3-pointers are quite different), I think Messiah and other normies can take something from this. Rather than hang your hat on fouling less than other teams, why not coach fouling? Any Nescac team would have immediately fouled the Williams player during that counter attack (or at least tried to) and they probably could've saved a goal.

Messiah has more titles than every NESCAC team combined.  I don't think they need any tips

Conn college seems to be cruising as of late, with two blowout wins (4-1, 3-0). They travel to Mary Washington to play Kenyon, who just squeaked by fellow NESCAC Hamilton.

How far can this team go? And if they find themselves vs Mary Washington in the Elite 8, who has the upper hand in that match?

Quote from: Mr_November on November 18, 2024, 10:30:41 AM

Quote from: Dustin_Patrón on November 18, 2024, 10:22:40 AMIn response to Fitz's comment about the fouls committed by nescac sides in comparison to normies:

Fouls are a part of the sport. In fact, fouling is an important tactic that it practiced and coached at the highest level. I don't think we should shine a negative light on it, as Fitz aimed to do--especially when these teams are coming from the most physical conference in the country and are used to refs that often times let them play. Not to mention, these same teams continue to dominate division 3 soccer.

During last year's NBA season, critics were pointing out the Celtics high volume of 3-point shooting, scoffing at their decision to chuck up 3s rather than getting to the paint or posting guys up. This season, the majority of teams are shooting significantly more 3s after watching Boston skip through the playoffs on their way to an 18th championship for the franchise. Even the Celtics have upped their volume to start the year.

Though an imperfect analogy (fouls and 3-pointers are quite different), I think Messiah and other normies can take something from this. Rather than hang your hat on fouling less than other teams, why not coach fouling? Any Nescac team would have immediately fouled the Williams player during that counter attack (or at least tried to) and they probably could've saved a goal.

I think we're seeing two contrasting philosophies in sports ethics. NESCAC schools operate out of a mode where you must "win at all costs" rather than "winning the right way". Messiah prides themselves on winning with class and sportsmanship, whereas NESCAC schools don't mind a bit of gamesmanship to get the job done. I don't take issue with either approach. It all just depends on your sports ethics philosophy.

Not sure the 3 point analogy works with soccer, to be completely honest.

The analogy is presented to show that other teams noticed the trend and adapted their own play. Agreed that fouls and 3-pointers are quite different as I stated in my initial post. Just saying that the normies might want to eat intentional fouls at a much higher rate, especially in the tournament and especially against a nescac side.

Also, what does fouling have anything to do with class, sportsmanship or "winning the right way"?? Watch the highest level of soccer and you'll see teams fouling on counter attacks, time wasting, diving etc.

I think we need to separate these soccer tactics from non-soccer offenses like taunting, gesturing to the fans etc.

Quote from: Mr_November on November 18, 2024, 10:30:41 AM

Quote from: Dustin_Patrón on November 18, 2024, 10:22:40 AMIn response to Fitz's comment about the fouls committed by nescac sides in comparison to normies:

Fouls are a part of the sport. In fact, fouling is an important tactic that it practiced and coached at the highest level. I don't think we should shine a negative light on it, as Fitz aimed to do--especially when these teams are coming from the most physical conference in the country and are used to refs that often times let them play. Not to mention, these same teams continue to dominate division 3 soccer.

During last year's NBA season, critics were pointing out the Celtics high volume of 3-point shooting, scoffing at their decision to chuck up 3s rather than getting to the paint or posting guys up. This season, the majority of teams are shooting significantly more 3s after watching Boston skip through the playoffs on their way to an 18th championship for the franchise. Even the Celtics have upped their volume to start the year.

Though an imperfect analogy (fouls and 3-pointers are quite different), I think Messiah and other normies can take something from this. Rather than hang your hat on fouling less than other teams, why not coach fouling? Any Nescac team would have immediately fouled the Williams player during that counter attack (or at least tried to) and they probably could've saved a goal.

I think we're seeing two contrasting philosophies in sports ethics. NESCAC schools operate out of a mode where you must "win at all costs" rather than "winning the right way". Messiah prides themselves on winning with class and sportsmanship, whereas NESCAC schools don't mind a bit of gamesmanship to get the job done. I don't take issue with either approach. It all just depends on your sports ethics philosophy.

Not sure the 3 point analogy works with soccer, to be completely honest.

The only way this comment is acceptable is if it is sarcasm.

Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 18, 2024, 10:17:13 AM

Quote from: blooter442 on November 17, 2024, 08:00:46 PM

Quote from: Garden12 on November 17, 2024, 07:55:25 PMIs it possible that the Hopkins style of play just doesn't work in the tournament? Their endless possession just doesnt seem to consistently create chances against teams that are solid defensively. Maybe they sometimes make a small run but I could never see them winning the 6/6 needed to win a tournament.

This reminds me of "why does Guardiola's City run the PL winning 6 of the last 7 but only win the CL once?" Controlled possession is usually a safer bet over the course of a league season, but it can be countered in knockout situations by the right tactics and/or a little bit of luck (e.g. Chelsea in the UCL final of 2021).

Funny you mention Pep, as he is one of Coach Appleby's guiding lights. (Per an interview with Simple Coach.) Beyond the possession style, an under-reported aspect of a Guidiola team is the extreme urgency they place on immediately retrieving the ball after a turnover. Hopkins is very pesky in this regard.

To W&L's credit, they were very good about shrugging off this pressure and doing their own thing, especially in the first half. The pressure started paying off more in the second half and OTs.

Losing Andersen who was absolutely spectacular all season long for Sunday's game probably made Coach Appleby rethink his usual formation for the first half.  But obviously that was ditched in the second half and the OTs and thought Hopkins had the upper hand from second half on. 

Winning the PKs with no run-up in the conference championship (5 out of 5 makes) was pretty special.  But it did appear the W&L goalie didn't seem too concerned when he first lined up so I would guess some prep work was done.

Congrats to W&L.  Do think this group pod is wide open but think Dickinson is the team to beat.

Ironic that Hopkins went 3 wins and 1 tie this season against the teams left in this pod and is not a part of it.

Good luck to the remaining 16 with a shout out to CMS...let's go west coast.

Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 18, 2024, 10:37:41 AMIf you like to look at some great goals and some pk saves, check this out if you have not already. https://www.instagram.com/div3footy/?hl=en

Oh wow. I hadn't actually seen the Williams goal. Um. Keeper?

That's an unfortunate way to go out.

Quote from: paclassic89 on November 18, 2024, 10:43:43 AM

Quote from: Dustin_Patrón on November 18, 2024, 10:22:40 AMIn response to Fitz's comment about the fouls committed by nescac sides in comparison to normies:

Fouls are a part of the sport. In fact, fouling is an important tactic that it practiced and coached at the highest level. I don't think we should shine a negative light on it, as Fitz aimed to do--especially when these teams are coming from the most physical conference in the country and are used to refs that often times let them play. Not to mention, these same teams continue to dominate division 3 soccer.

During last year's NBA season, critics were pointing out the Celtics high volume of 3-point shooting, scoffing at their decision to chuck up 3s rather than getting to the paint or posting guys up. This season, the majority of teams are shooting significantly more 3s after watching Boston skip through the playoffs on their way to an 18th championship for the franchise. Even the Celtics have upped their volume to start the year.

Though an imperfect analogy (fouls and 3-pointers are quite different), I think Messiah and other normies can take something from this. Rather than hang your hat on fouling less than other teams, why not coach fouling? Any Nescac team would have immediately fouled the Williams player during that counter attack (or at least tried to) and they probably could've saved a goal.

Messiah has more titles than every NESCAC team combined.  I don't think they need any tips

Different story when you look at the most recent years but touché.