It seems like money is an issue when folks wanna make money an issue. I thought this year was supposed to be different with NPI carrying a lot of weight (as jknezek has detailed effectively) and the exception being a situation like we have with Wisconsin and Amherst. If Trinity and CMS can go to Vermont, then certainly W&L can go to Williams.

Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 19, 2024, 11:28:05 AMOnce again, I'm in this weird parochial position where Hopkins beat a Centennial foe twice (regular season and conf tournament), yet that team advances further in Nov Madness than the Jays.

Last year, Hop beat Wash in Chestertown 2-0 both times and the Shorepeople made their epic run to the F4. This year, Hop beat the Red Devils rather convincingly at home by 4-2 and 3-0 scorelines. (For the record, Dickinson thumped Hop at home 4-2 last year.)

So, it's hard for me to see them getting past either Williams or W&L. Heck, I can see them struggling to get past the next round. I thought their forwards were decent, but they didn't really blow me away with their speed or ball handling.

True that, however, are you factoring location, location, location?? Notice JHU lost in Carlisle, but dominated in Bmore? Difference could be the field. Hop's style is best on pool tables, but, once you get on a meadow, things can definitely change and did for the last two years.  Would you like to be a high scoring team in Carlisle or a defensive/possession type team? Can they get by either W&L or Williams in Bmore?? Maybe not, but Carlisle might play a part. IMO, though maybe not a huge difference, surfaces can play a factor. 

Quote from: jknezek on November 19, 2024, 11:33:34 AM

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2024, 11:26:41 AM@jknezek, your take that travel can definitely impact performance I think supports the idea that, from at least a perennial perspective, Trinity gets the short end of the stick. And surely you're not going to count the fact that Trinity has to travel more than most anyway as a mitigating factor more so than a double jeopardy. That program is used to the CC trip to CO, and not the same as traveling to NE where most would agree the top NESCACs have substantial home field advantages.

I do think Trinity are more prepared for the difficulties of travel than a NESCAC team who hardly ever travels. Experience does help mitigate the effects. But I do believe being at home is a significant advantage and travelling is tough. I also think the committee erred setting home/away to irrelevant, but that's a different discussion.

And I never said the island teams don't get the short end of the stick. They do. Regularly. I just don't think Trinity got it this year. I think they hosted the first weekend, as they should have, and they are rightfully a 2 seed in a 2nd weekend pod and should travel. Travelling to New England isn't much different than Maryland or Central PA. And I doubt anyone saw the Wisconsin pod happening, but I really don't think that's any better from a travel perspective.

If Trinity were the top seed in the pod, and they got sent somewhere like Amherst did, I'd say that's a screw job. And I don't doubt it's happened to Trinity as an an island team before and will happen again. That's the money reality. But this year, in this seeding? I think their pod is in the proper place.

Sorry, as a neutral on this one, it's hard to read your take as not suggesting that since Trinity already has to suffer with travel that even more travel should be fine. We hear how the NESCAC rosters are built on a very national and even international recruitment and I reckon NESCACs could travel without a ton of hardship. It is interesting how some of us can see things so differently, which again, doesn't mean I disagree with your NPI argument. Like I don't think Amherst got screwed at all. In fact, if we did an ESPNesque prediction model I would guess Amherst now has the highest likelihood of all remaining teams to reach the F4.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2024, 11:36:00 AMIt seems like money is an issue when folks wanna make money an issue. I thought this year was supposed to be different with NPI carrying a lot of weight (as jknezek has detailed effectively) and the exception being a situation like we have with Wisconsin and Amherst. If Trinity and CMS can go there Vermont, then certainly W&L can go to Williams.

You'd have thought. I certainly thought W&L was headed to Williams and was very surprised when Carlyle popped up on the W&L schedule page.

Then again, W&L's women's team, which I think was the 3 seed overall, is going to Scranton (9) for their second weekend. They are the top NPI in a pod with Scranton, Trinity (22) and William Smith (16). I really can't figure that one out, as William Smith is Hobart, and when W&L's football team went to Hobart for an NCAA game, it was a bus trip. Trinity is a flight either way.

So I'm real confused on why the W&L women aren't at home. Maybe it had something to do with hosting priority and W&L put in to host for both teams and the men had the second weekend, so even though they didn't get it, it forced the women to the road? Don't know how that works.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2024, 11:42:38 AMSorry, as a neutral on this one, it's hard to read your take as not suggesting that since Trinity already has to suffer with travel that even more travel should be fine. We hear how the NESCAC rosters are built on a very national and even international recruitment and I reckon NESCACs could travel without a ton of hardship. It is interesting how some of us can see things so differently, which again, doesn't mean I disagree with your NPI argument. Like I don't think Amherst got screwed at all. In fact, if we did an ESPNesque prediction model I would guess Amherst now has the highest likelihood of all remaining teams to reach the F4.

It's not "fine". I've said travel is hard. I simply state that they are more prepared to handle the difficulties of travel, since they regularly have that experience, than teams that don't travel, like NESCAC schools which stay in a fairly small silo all season. You are looking at this like an absolute value, travel is either good or bad. From that perspective I agree it's bad. I'd rather be home before games. But I'm looking at it as a team that has experience travelling is better able to handle it than teams that don't have that experience. It's relative. That's the difference.

Either way, as I've said repeatedly but you seem to ignore, travel is hard and an additional barrier to winning.

I think the logic that teams that regularly get on planes, and all of the logistical details and stress that goes with that, are going to be less bothered by a trip in November is pretty sound.

It's not that NESCAC players aren't used to planes, its that traveling in a pack like that is a pain in the ass and (potentially) distracting.

Lol.

Huge assumption that Trinity is better equipped to travel since they go to CC every other year or once a year or whatever (and I guess because they are used to getting sent to the East Coast) for the tournament. Teams can decide to travel, and they do. But of course NESCACs don't travel because...you know, don't play the first weekend, only 15 games, very serious academics, etc, etc. Tufts and Williams both flew to Ohio and never heard a peep about that impacting their performance.

NESCAC kids are pretty sophisticated in general and I suspect they actually love traveling.

Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 19, 2024, 11:56:39 AMI think the logic that teams that regularly get on planes, and all of the logistical details and stress that goes with that, are going to be less bothered by a trip in November is pretty sound.

It's not that NESCAC players aren't used to planes, its that traveling in a pack like that is a pain in the ass and (potentially) distracting.

Outside of tournaments, how often does Trinity actually travel...and I mean travel that isn't self-selected like an early season trip to do something like a CNU/MW combo or Hop/F&M? Some coaches argue that travel helps a team with bonding and actually decreasing distractions.

To fend off the obstinence (or worse) critique, if the conclusion is that travel is hard and a factor but not necessarily unfair (or unfair in relation to other overriding factors) then we're not really in disagreement.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2024, 11:36:00 AMIt seems like money is an issue when folks wanna make money an issue. I thought this year was supposed to be different with NPI carrying a lot of weight (as jknezek has detailed effectively) and the exception being a situation like we have with Wisconsin and Amherst. If Trinity and CMS can go there Vermont, then certainly W&L can go to Williams.

It's always going to be an issue of money in a nonrevenue sport. The NCAAs already sent three teams on short notice to Colorado which was a required along with one team to Wisconsin because it had to. Also a team from Maine to Texas. Also 4 teams are going to Vegas which was not always the case before when it was Salem, VA recently. Vegas is going to look like a club game with only parents (if they can afford) with tumbleweed blowing around the stands.  Last year, the NCAAs did not have to pay for W&L and WC to fly.

As to Williams hosting, could you imagine if you went to your boss and said - hey I'm not going to save money (by putting W&L on plane) even though we are not obligated. Especially for a sport nobody really cares about since it does not make money? Down side for not spending this money is that some people on a message board and a very small, though prominent, college with no big revenue teams which also is part of the best D3 conference in the land are going get heartburn.

Also you could blame it on Tufts, it definitely spit the bit. Otherwise Williams would probably be going to Medford. You could say that NPI did play a factor till the No. 2 team blew it. However, maybe the NCAAs would have still baulked at sending W&L on plane?? Maybe it was inevitable that Williams (and Tufts) was going to Carlisle??

Or you could blame Hop for losing or W&L for winning??  If Hop had won, then issued resolved, it would be at Williams. Hop it is your fault!!! Hahahaha Score more goals!!

Boiling it all down - money and location. Location seems to win out this time and probably will in the future.

Conspiratorially, it really is about NESCAC v. Cent. Conf. Hop was flexing when it lost to make NESCAC have to travel. That is definitely is some INFOWARS stuff. 

Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 19, 2024, 12:15:29 PMAlso 4 teams are going to Vegas which was not always the case before when it was Salem, VA recently. Vegas is going to look like a club game with only parents (if they can afford) with tumbleweed blowing around the stands.  Last year, the NCAAs did not have to pay for W&L and WC to fly.

This. I drove about 10 hours each way last year to see W&L play. No way I'm flying to Vegas if they make it. All the W&L students at the game had the stands rocking last year. That isn't happening this year. I hate when the NCAA does stuff like this. While there is never a guarantee you will get a local team, you at least have to put the game somewhere local to D3. Vegas is... nothing. I can only assume the stadium or tourism board put up money for this travesty. I have no problem moving it around the country, but it has to be near some D3 schools at least. Southern California, Colorado, Texas, Oregon, there are places near island teams that still make 1000x more sense than Las Vegas.

Good points, PN, and I'll admit that I hadn't really looked at Trinity's schedule. Which is... Kind of fascinating.

They played a somewhat astounding 14(!) games at home this season.

Away:

Mary Hardin-Baylor - Belton, TX (2.5 hours, give or take a few minutes)
Concordia - Austin (1.5 hours)
U of Dallas - Irving (4.5 hours - 1+ hour flight)
Austin C - Sherman, TX (5.5 hours - 1+ flight)
St. Thomas - Houston (3 hours - 1- flight)
Col Coll - The Springs (2 hour flight)
2 more games in Houston for the conf. tournament

So, I have no idea if those games in Irving, Sherman or Houston were on the bus or on the plane. But your overall point stands, it's not like these guys are getting on a plane every other weekend.

This is getting too convoluted for even me... especially since I really don't care..but I do enjoy analyzing the arguments and when things matter and when they don't. Why aren't MW and Conn going to Ohio? Is it because Conn would have to fly? Really?

If we're talking just travel, then I'd argue that Denison and Kenyon got fairly unfairly treated (trying to avoid 'screwed').  Assuming they are indeed traveling by bus, that's a brutal trip...under the 500 miles standard but not by a ton. Long drive for Conn as well.

Quote from: jknezek on November 19, 2024, 12:21:40 PM

Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 19, 2024, 12:15:29 PMAlso 4 teams are going to Vegas which was not always the case before when it was Salem, VA recently. Vegas is going to look like a club game with only parents (if they can afford) with tumbleweed blowing around the stands.  Last year, the NCAAs did not have to pay for W&L and WC to fly.

This. I drove about 10 hours each way last year to see W&L play. No way I'm flying to Vegas if they make it. All the W&L students at the game had the stands rocking last year. That isn't happening this year. I hate when the NCAA does stuff like this. While there is never a guarantee you will get a local team, you at least have to put the game somewhere local to D3. Vegas is... nothing. I can only assume the stadium or tourism board put up money for this travesty. I have no problem moving it around the country, but it has to be near some D3 schools at least. Southern California, Colorado, Texas, Oregon, there are places near island teams that still make 1000x more sense than Las Vegas.

I am a D1 college hockey nerd and I hate the way they do almost all of their venue selections. They'll put 2 or even 3 of the opening weekend pods in the Northeast, which inevitably puts a 3 or 4 seed with an "in reality" home game they don't deserve.

And more to your point, they'll throw a Frozen Four in some place like Tampa, which is near absolutely ZERO D1 hockey programs ensuring often lightly attended final games. Drives most college hockey fans a little nuts.