Quote from: Pat Coleman on November 25, 2024, 03:08:26 PM

Quote from: jknezek on November 25, 2024, 03:04:10 PMNot a fan of Padron's comments. Calling D3 intramurals plays into some real bad stereotypes and demeans thousands off student athletes all for his narrow, self-serving perspective.

And I also take umbrage with the podcast talking about teams blocking UMHB. No one is blocking them, they just don't want to play them. I don't make my kids play with children they don't like, don't have the same values, and do t get along with. UMHB is not entitled to teams wanting to play them.

Curious -- did you actually listen? Harmon made the comments and the talk about teams blocking UMHB is a hypothetical raised in response to people raising a suggestion that a school play a minimum of D-III games in order to qualify. (There is a minimum in place, and UMHB met it.)

I did listen. My understanding was that the teams who refuse to play them were somehow blocking them. That's how it came across to me. If it was meant different, that's fine. But it very much sounded different to me. And I 100% stand by my comment of him demeaning D3 athletes. It's a bad look for a coach, regardless of his gripes.

Yes, and I stand by my assessment that you should identify the correct person when calling out someone's statements.

Quote from: Pat Coleman on November 25, 2024, 03:47:46 PMYes, and I stand by my assessment that you should identify the correct person when calling out someone's statements.

Fair enough. If I get a chance I'll listen again. I was driving to FL for Thanksgiving with the in laws when I listened this a.m.

Quote from: jknezek on November 25, 2024, 03:31:54 PM

Quote from: Pat Coleman on November 25, 2024, 03:08:26 PM

Quote from: jknezek on November 25, 2024, 03:04:10 PMNot a fan of Padron's comments. Calling D3 intramurals plays into some real bad stereotypes and demeans thousands off student athletes all for his narrow, self-serving perspective.

And I also take umbrage with the podcast talking about teams blocking UMHB. No one is blocking them, they just don't want to play them. I don't make my kids play with children they don't like, don't have the same values, and do t get along with. UMHB is not entitled to teams wanting to play them.

Curious -- did you actually listen? Harmon made the comments and the talk about teams blocking UMHB is a hypothetical raised in response to people raising a suggestion that a school play a minimum of D-III games in order to qualify. (There is a minimum in place, and UMHB met it.)

I did listen. My understanding was that the teams who refuse to play them were somehow blocking them. That's how it came across to me. If it was meant different, that's fine. But it very much sounded different to me. And I 100% stand by my comment of him demeaning D3 athletes. It's a bad look for a coach, regardless of his gripes.

My comment about "blocking" UMHB was in the hypothetical and in response to commentary around the socials that UMHB shouldn't have been invited because they only beat three other Division-III teams- UMHB definitely did meet any game or win minimums they needed to be eligible for this tournament.  In the hypothetical of having a higher minimum D3 opponents threshold, I think it would have to come with guarantee of games so that the division couldn't squeeze out a member by simply refusing to play them ever. 

I don't think referring to the teams that you kind of need to play a game with every now and then as "intramurals" is a step in the right direction (UMHB doesn't seem to have a ton of leverage here).  My larger point was that for all of the teams on the Texas island, there's long term benefit to finding some kind of détente and having some September competition on occasion. 

So it was you and not Padron (Here I misidentified again. My apologies again. So embarrassingly bad) talking about blocking?  That's what I thought. Pat had me thinking Padron (and again. At least I'm stupidly consistent) brought it up.

Anyway, I should listen to what you said again I guess. I have no interest in D3 forcing opponents in non-conf games. The whole point is to play who you want and think is best for you... And has room on the schedule. I'm still salty about Sewanee ending a 60+ year rivalry but I get it.

But UMHB is in a bed of their own making and the comments from Padron (last time, I hope. Uggh) would have me, as a local school, hanging up whenever I see his area code. No team owes them anything and his comments were... Very unhelpful at best.

Quote from: jknezek on November 25, 2024, 04:05:07 PMSo it was you and not Padron talking about blocking?  That's what I thought. Pat had me thinking Padron brought it up.

Anyway, I should listen to what you said again I guess. I have no interest in D3 forcing opponents in non-conf games. The whole point is to play who you want and think is best for you... And has room on the schedule. I'm still salty about Sewanee ending a 60+ year rivalry but I get it.

But UMHB is in a bed of their own making and the comments from Padron would have me, as a local school, hanging up whenever I see his area code. No team owes them anything and his comments were... Very unhelpful at best.

Larry Harmon is the head coach of Mary Hardin-Baylor and is the person whose audio was in the podcast.

Ahh... Holy crap. Thanks. That is embarrassing. I'd go back and edit it but I think I need to leave that mistake up so people know why you are trying to correct my stubborn idiocy...

Yikes.

Quote from: jknezek on November 25, 2024, 04:05:07 PMI have no interest in D3 forcing opponents in non-conf games.

FWIW, I don't either.  Institution A's priority needs to be what's good for Institution A and not what UMHB needs.  When those two things intersect, great. When they don't, also fine. 

Quote from: TheChucker on November 25, 2024, 02:45:33 PMThat still gets back to the "intra mural" comment as being sarcastic, but valid. SCAC members want to be members of D3 but don't want to compete at the real D3 level. SCAC members want a playoff qualifier pass without having the ability to actually participate meaningfully in the playoffs. "Avoidance of excellence" should be the SCAC football motto.

Once again someone runs with the fallacy that the only reason schools leave the ASC is to play football in a less competitive conference.  Roll the tape:

• Dallas left the ASC in 2001 to become an independent.  No football.
• Austin left the ASC in 2006 for the SCAC.  OK, they have football, sort of.
• Centenary left the ASC in 2012 for the SCAC, one year after joining.  No football or plans at the time.
• Schreiner left the ASC in 2013 for the SCAC.  No football or plans at the time.
• TLU left the ASC for the SCAC in 2013.  Football, but joined the year after the SAA split off and the SCAC lost its bid shortly thereafter.
• Mississippi left in 2014 to go D2.  Football until they killed the program (at the end of this year).
• UT-Tyler left in 2019 to go D2.  No football.
• Louisiana left in 2021 to go NAIA.  Football at the time, no idea what they're doing today.
• McMurry left twice, once in 2012 to go D2, then in 2024 to the SCAC.  Football.
• Belhaven left in 2022 to play in the CCS. Football.
• Sul Ross left in 2024 to go D2.  Football.
• Ozarks left in 2024 to go to the SCAC.  No football.
• UT Dallas left in 2024 (or is leaving since they don't count this year) to go D2.  No football.
• Concordia left in 2024 for the SCAC.  No football.
• LeTourneau will leave in 2025 for the SCAC.  No football.

So, in the last ten years, exactly one school with football has left the ASC for the SCAC. One. That's the same number as are leaving the SAA for the SCAC.  Maybe the root of the problem lies somewhere closer to home, say on Oak Lawn Avenue in Dallas?

And as far as competing at the "real D3" level, in the last weekend alone Colorado College was sixth in the country at the NCAA cross-country championships, and Trinity was in at least the sweet 16 for both men's and women's soccer (the latter, elite eight) as well as (women's) volleyball.  "Real D3" has more sports than football and schools and student athletes look for opportunities in all of them.  The departure of two schools from the SCAC to the SAA in 2025 opens up possibilities for other schools to have success and participate in NCAA competition, and that is no doubt appealing to the schools that recently joined as well as providing incentive for the other long-term members of the SCAC to stay put. 

Quote from: jknezek on November 25, 2024, 03:04:10 PMNot a fan of Padron's (Harmon's -- Embarrassingly I misidentified UMHB's coach multiple times despite Pat Coleman's attempts to correct me. Apologize to both men and would correct it but then Pat's comments wouldn't make sense) comments. Calling D3 intramurals plays into some real bad stereotypes and demeans thousands off student athletes all for his narrow, self-serving perspective.

And I also take umbrage with the podcast talking about teams blocking UMHB. No one is blocking them, they just don't want to play them. I don't make my kids play with children they don't like, don't have the same values, and do t get along with. UMHB is not entitled to teams wanting to play them.

They made a choice to focus massive resources on football in order to grow and better their school. But as I always tell my kids, choices have consequences, sometimes we don't see them coming and really don't like them, but that doesn't mean they aren't valid to someone else.

The choices of the SCAC teams may come back with consequences they don't like. We will just have to wait and see.

But don't demean D3 athletes because you aren't getting your way. That's not leadership, it's sour grapes.

Even with the edit I think you're still missing attribution from the podcast.  Here is a rough transcript of what Padron Harmon (edit, copy pasta bad) said:

QuoteThe question you had about the negative press, when you're at a place like Mary Hardin-Baylor, these guys come to this  program because they want to be in these games at that kind of program where everybody expects you to be your best every day  and every single game.  It doesn't matter if it is unrealistic or not.  The kids that we get to come to our program choose to do that and they don't focus on that negative, they think what an opportunity for me to be at a place  where somebody expects me to be at my best every single day and they do an unbelievable job doing it.  And for these guys to go through this season with what has  been printed and put in social media and with what's happening in d3 football  and how we're making it in my opinion making it intramural sports in a lot of conferences  because people are leaving to make their own conference and they're leaving their conference that they weren't even 500 in ever and they're making their own conference  so they have a chance to get in, i just think that is bad for d3 football  i know it is bad for d3 football in Texas  so by saying that what these guys read that see that and still come out every single day  with the mindset that they're going to do their dead level best it is truly an  honor and it is just amazing to witness myself and it keeps me motivated i mean these guys motivate me more than I've ever thought about motivating them.

Was the intramural sports comment warranted?  Probably not.  Not gonna make excuses for him and honestly, I'm not the biggest fan of his as a coach.  But the rest of it, I applaud him for standing up for his guys and supporting them, that's all you want out of a coach.

I agree. The rest of it was good. But comments about how strong his players are still don't sound great since they only play an intramural game according to him.

As you said, not a great comment about others mixed in to some good stuff about his own...

Quote from: jknezek on November 25, 2024, 05:09:06 PMI agree. The rest of it was good. But comments about how strong his players are still don't sound great since they only play an intramural game according to him.

As you said, not a great comment about others mixed in to some good stuff about his own...

My interpretation was that it's the teams that leave to join the lesser grouping that are playing intramurals, but I can see your take on it.

Media keeps talking about UMHB and HSU's issues.... and very little being said about HPU and ETBU even though their situations are more precarious. 

Fact is.... UMHB and HSU are in better positions as they could both opt up to the LSC and likely be competitive from day 1.   LSC even makes sense geographically.  And if UMHB makes the jump to FCS....even more options.

But HPU and ETBU don't have these luxuries.  They would be bottom feeders in the LSC.  FSC is a ridiculous thought.

SCAC doesn't seem interested in HPU or ETBU (for unknown reasons).

No other D3 conferences make geographical sense  SAA doesn't want them.  SCAIC?  USA South?

NAIA seems to be the only option.... and most would agree it's unappealing.

One has to wonder if a completely new D3 conference could be formed....

HPU, ETBU, Wayland Baptist, Louisiana Christian, Belhaven....maybe some others nearby.

Rip the band-aid off.  The ASC has no one to blame but themselves for this mess.

Quote from: Mavchamp on November 25, 2024, 06:12:03 PMOne has to wonder if a completely new D3 conference could be formed....

HPU, ETBU, Wayland Baptist, Louisiana Christian, Belhaven....maybe some others nearby.

I have to think if this idea was possible it would have already been announced and the others nearby would be UMHB and HSU.

I think if Louisiana Christian wanted to be in D-III, they would still be in D-III. Leaving D-III allows them to not worry about whether they could field enough sports and also allows them to use athletics scholarships to try to get students in the door (743 full-time undergrads at last report).