Good game by Stout.  We made a nice run in the first half and had a lead but they got going in the final 4 minutes of the half and went ahead on a three-pointer with :12 remaining.  In the second half they picked up the intensity and we just didn't match it.  Though we did manage to keep them within sight and get to within six, 47-41 with 9 minutes remaining.  But we couldn't get shots to drop after that, turned it over some and the BlueDevil pulled away 65-50.

Quote from: foul_language on January 28, 2007, 10:19:09 AMThere was a lot of rattling going on in Menomonie last night.

Good chatting with Champ and Stoutguy after the Stout game last night. I can't wait until WW posters weigh in on the game. It was a barn-burner; kind of one of those hell-bent-for-leather kind of things. What does that mean, anyway. Have I got it wrong? Is it hell-bent-for-weather, which makes more sense where I'm from.

BadgerWarhawk wasn't at the game FL, so he's probably looking for us to report what happened.  (and as I was typing this, BW posted, I can see that he was either listening to the the game yesterday or he read the stat page)

Simply put, the Warhawks, played a great first half - especially the first 12 minutes where they held a 9 point advantage.  Stout managed to make a run in the last 8 minutes and went into the half with a 3 point lead.  That last 8 minutes Stout finally found a little rythym - but I sure wasn't comfortable with how the game was going up to that point.

As noted in my post to SG, Kelsey had 10 blocked shots (the team had 13).  Another key defensive stat was the 17 total steals - and one of my favorite players - Amanda Geissler had 5 of them!

This was a very physical game - too physical.  I think it took less than two minutes of play for the officials to lose control of the game.  I seriously was concerned for the safety of the players on both teams.

If the officials aren't going to call fouls for overly aggressive physical play, teams have to play even more aggressive and physical to have a chance to win.

The Stout writeup of the games refers to sloppy play in the first half - and I wouldn't argue that it wasn't sloppy - at times.  But when the officials aren't making calls - it leads to rag tag BB - a game that neither of these fine teams is used to.

An example of calls not made.... our leading scorer for the evening, Savanah Oeltjen, got two of her 16 points where she should have been first:

1. Called for traveling
2. Called for charging

I was on the other end of the court standing on the floor and I could see this - and I'm as much of a homer as anyone on this board.  How three officials failed to see our player with the ball commit these offenses and not blow a whistle...

The Lady Warhawks played a very strong defensive effort in the first half.  They held us to under 39% shooting and made us work very hard for each point.  In the second half, they simply wore down allowing Stout to sink their shots at a 50% clip.

Stout's defense held the Lady Warhawks to 26.6% for the evening.  The leading scorer for the 'Hawks was Tiffany Morton with 15 points.

The alumni game that was played earlier in the day was also great fun to watch!  As a fan it was great to see the former players that helped build the program back on the Johnson Fieldhouse floor again.  And you could tell the former UW Stout Runnin' Lady Blue Devils enjoyed seeing their former mentors and teammates again!

Both sides committed and got away with a fair share of non-traditional play.

Fast and furious comes to mind.

I noticed Stout roster was down to only 20 players. I chatted with Alisha Doppenberg a bit during halftime. She's given up basketball for a fiance ('e' should have one of those little accent marks).  I certainly wish her the best.

My perceptions came from listening to the game on radio.   I haven't seen the box score yet but just by listening you could tell two things.  One, there was a lot of physical play going on and two the WARHAWKS had their problems trying to score inside with Duoss around.  So ten blocks doesn't surprise me, "blocked by Duoss" was a redundant comment during the broadcast. 

I knew our chances were slim but I'd hoped the final would be closer.  We're better but not quite to that level yet.  We'd have to play almost errorlessly to win and on your court we'd probably need a break here and there too. 


While winning a conference championship is generally a program goal with a three game cushion and only six games remaining I really have a hard time imagining anyone catching, let alone overtaking, Stout.  Of course the roof could collapse on Duoss.   However without the Geissingers, Oeltjen and Dani whatshername underneath it as well Stout could probably weather the storm.

Second place would be a huge step forward for the WARHAWK program and would exceed any expectations I had of the team.  Obviously there's a ways to go yet but they've got themselves in a position to compete for it.  Winning the next two homes games (Platteville, Superior) is the next step.   

Quote from: badgerwarhawk on January 28, 2007, 05:25:07 PMWhile winning a conference championship is generally a program goal with a three game cushion and only six games remaining I really have a hard time imagining anyone catching, let alone overtaking, Stout.  Of course the roof could collapse on Duoss.   However without the Geissingers, Oeltjen and Dani whatshername underneath it as well Stout could probably weather the storm.

Had to chuckle after reading that one....  

I personally refuse to look any further than our next opponent - River Falls.  They are the toughest defense in the WIAC, and we're playing on their court.  Cindy Hovet (former UW Stout star BB player under Coach T) coaches her team very well, and is very familar with Mark's system.

Yup, it's the old one game at a time!!!

QuoteSecond place would be a huge step forward for the WARHAWK program and would exceed any expectations I had of the team.  Obviously there's a ways to go yet but they've got themselves in a position to compete for it.  Winning the next two homes games (Platteville, Superior) is the next step.   

I wish coaches Keri Pete, and Amy, as well as all the players and their fans, the best for every game the rest of the year, with the exception of a possible 3rd meeting in the WIAC Tourney against Stout.

Quote from: The Champ on January 28, 2007, 12:57:20 PM

Quote from: bulk19 on January 27, 2007, 07:31:14 PMYou said you saw a good deffensive performance, and that it would take a great one to beat you. I agree with that. But again, you are comparing the 'Golds to the other Ds you have seen this year. But compared to what I've seen this year, that wasn't a good performance from this team.

I did see a good defensive effort by the Blugolds against Stout at Johnson Fieldhouse.  It's too bad that you missed it...

EC is not the best defense we've seen all year.  You point out that the EC D has held opponents to 57.5 points per game.  River Falls is the best defense we've played all year - and their 50.1 (a full 4 point advantage over #2 Oshkosh and 7. 4 PPG better than #4 EC) point per game average backs that up.

One of the factors that is hidden in EC's PPG ranking is the recent Oshkosh game - they held Oshkosh to 48 points - a great defensive effort, IMHO - and lost the game.  Was that the fault of the defense in your mind too?  They held Oshkosh to 10 points under their season PPG average.

How about the recent Point game?  They held point to 64 points (magically 1 point below the 65 point reference you used to extoll the virtues of the Blugold defense), 5 points below Points average - and lost that game too.

So let's recap...  Three January WIAC games where the EC D holds the opponent 5 - 10 points below the opponents season PPG average, and you lose all three games.  Your offense averages 46 PPG in those three games.

QuoteChamp - I think it is safe to say that if we were football coaches, you'd be the offensive coordinator and I'd be the defensive coordinator...

Well, to be honest - I'm more defensive minded - and would probably be a defensive coordinator.  I'm better at figuring out how to prevent my opponent from scoring - but also smart enough to understand that I can't pitch a shutout everytime out.

I would depend on my offensive coordinator to score some points for me to cover my back.

In your situation, in your recent losses to Oshkosh, Point and Stout - your offensive coordinator let you down.

If I were Tonya (and I'm not) - I'd be looking at how to improve my offense.

Simple math tells you that when your offense is only 1.4 PPG better than the worst in the WIAC - the problem isn't the defense which is #4 and is 9.6 PPG better than the worst in the league.

Whether it be baseball, football or basketball, a good defense will help you win games, assuming you have a good offense.  If you have a poor offense, you will need a great defense to win games consistently.

EC has a good defense, and gave a good defensive effort against Stout.

Very well said.... I couldn't agree with you more.

I think where EC is lacking is offense and defensive rebounds....but certainly, not defense!

Hey Champ ?

I haven't figured out how to do this quote thingy here, but here's what you posted:

The Lady Warhawks played a very strong defensive effort in the first half.  They held us to under 39% shooting and made us work very hard for each point.  In the second half, they simply wore down allowing Stout to sink their shots at a 50% clip.

Stout's defense held the Lady Warhawks to 26.6% for the evening.  The leading scorer for the 'Hawks was Tiffany Morton with 15 points.

How come it's the Blugold offense that stinks, and the D is good, but in the case of the Stout/Whitewater game, it wasn't the Blue Devils' offense that wasn't too good in the first half, and it wasn't the Warhawks offense that wasn't good the whole game? You give credit to the D in both those cases, but don't blame the offenses???

Are you sure it was your D, and it wasn't a case of your offense playing poorly in the first half, and the Lady Warhawks' offense being off the whole night?    Kind of sounds like both offenses played poorly to me, based on the stats... 

Champ/Hoops

I agree with you in that the EC defense is the strength of the team.  For being undersized at some positions they do a great job defending.  My comments were directed at the penetration given up by EC in the Stout game alone.  Of all the games that I have seen this year, EC gave up by far the most dribble penetration in the Stout game, something they (EC) usually do a good job of preventing.  With all games considered, I think that all fans that have followed EC this year will agree that the defense is the strength and shooting (especially on the road) is the weakness.

Quote from: bulk19 on January 28, 2007, 11:37:05 PM
I haven't figured out how to do this quote thingy here.

You click on the quote button (upper righthand corner) on the poster's message that you want to quote

foul language - I'm just testing out this quote thingy here:

Quote from: foul_language on January 28, 2007, 10:19:09 AM
Champ and Buf, you're probably both right; the stats make it look like key EC players were getting some foul trouble early enough, they may have been snakebit on defense. Offense should have stepped up and made up for the points the defense wasn't preventing, although the defense must have at least rattled Stout to keep it under average.

This, actually, is a great observation on your part... Yes, the 'Golds did have some foul problems early. And perhaps that caused them to be less aggressive on D, and giving less help, as at least I perceived them to be...

buf - you nailed it exactly in that last post, the one before telling me how to use the quote thingy...

But enough about the past... So Champ, the Blue Devils scored 109 points in two games against the 'Golds... That's 54.5 per game... But River Falls, who is giving up 50.1 on the year, gave up 56 in the first game, a loss to you, so in my book they need to hold you to 53 or less on Wednesday, and beat you, to be a better D than my Blugolds! So there! 

Champ - Seriously, though, good to have you on here; you said you participate on other sites, but should have joined in on this one at the beginning of the year... It's good to banter back and forth with you; I can tell you know hoops, and appreciate the Blue Devils and the efforts they give...

You definitely have stirred my passion for D3 hoops up a bit this season!
I lived in Point when they won the National Championship, and so that was a pretty fun season, as I, a Blugold, jumped on that bandwagon and went to most of their home games.  But now I'm in EC, and experiencing the Stout/Blue Devil rivalry... Pretty cool...

We shall see what shakes out on Wednesday...

Quote from: bulk19 on January 28, 2007, 11:37:05 PM
Hey Champ ?


How come it's the Blugold offense that stinks, and the D is good, but in the case of the Stout/Whitewater game, it wasn't the Blue Devils' offense that wasn't too good in the first half, and it wasn't the Warhawks offense that wasn't good the whole game? You give credit to the D in both those cases, but don't blame the offenses???

Are you sure it was your D, and it wasn't a case of your offense playing poorly in the first half, and the Lady Warhawks' offense being off the whole night?    Kind of sounds like both offenses played poorly to me, based on the stats... 

What we have here is a failure to communicate. 

You keep trying to say that I posted that the EC O stinks - I've never said that.  Please don't put words in my mouth.

I posted factual information - EC's offense has scored an average of 60.3 PPG.  Oshkosh has the lowest average of 58.9, and Stout leads with 72.9.  Those are the simple facts.

Remember, I was at the Stout/WW game, and I guarantee you it was a very aggressive defensive effort by WW that stymied our offense in the first half.

Also, remember that I have stated that I'm more defensive minded.  IMHO, the defenses were both outstanding in the first half.  Our 13 blocked shots and 17 steals is one hell of a lot of defense by any team against any opponent in a game - and WW is one of the better teams in the WIAC.

That's the kind of ball I love to see - when you play that kind of defense - you force your opponent out of their game, especially when you can maintain it for the whole game.  In the second half, Stout posted 5 of those blocks and 11 of the steals!!!

We shot under 39% in the first half - that's a fact.  I gave credit to WW defense for holding our O down - just like I gave EC credit for the same.  In the second half we shot 50%, and I attributed that to the wearing down of the WW D.

Quote from: buf on January 28, 2007, 11:37:28 PM
My comments were directed at the penetration given up by EC in the Stout game alone.  Of all the games that I have seen this year, EC gave up by far the most dribble penetration in the Stout game, something they (EC) usually do a good job of preventing.  

Correct me if I'm wrong - but most of that penetration occurred in the second half, IIRC. 

With several players in foul trouble, and fatigue setting in from the speed of the Stout offense and defense, there were some dribble penetrations in the second half that may not have happened in the first half with a fresh D.

Quote from: bulk19 on January 29, 2007, 02:52:09 AMBut enough about the past... So Champ, the Blue Devils scored 109 points in two games against the 'Golds... That's 54.5 per game... But River Falls, who is giving up 50.1 on the year, gave up 56 in the first game, a loss to you, so in my book they need to hold you to 53 or less on Wednesday, and beat you, to be a better D than my Blugolds! So there! 

You need to remember that FR held us to 56 points on our home court.  Your squad held us to 65.  That looks like a 9 pont advantage for RF...

Teams are not static all season.  Each game can be it's own anamoly.  That's why looking at season averages is much more important than a very small sample size.

QuoteChamp - Seriously, though, good to have you on here; you said you participate on other sites, but should have joined in on this one at the beginning of the year... It's good to banter back and forth with you; I can tell you know hoops, and appreciate the Blue Devils and the efforts they give...

You definitely have stirred my passion for D3 hoops up a bit this season!
I lived in Point when they won the National Championship, and so that was a pretty fun season, as I, a Blugold, jumped on that bandwagon and went to most of their home games.  But now I'm in EC, and experiencing the Stout/Blue Devil rivalry... Pretty cool...

We shall see what shakes out on Wednesday...

Badgerwarhawk and I actively participate in an NFC North board - trading barbs about the Packers and the VIKINGS....

I'm also in to old cars and racing - and participate on boards on those topics also.

BTW - I just noticed that the WIAC attendance numbers now show that EC draws a larger crowd on the road than they do at home (698 at home and 803 on the road).  I wonder what changed that statistic??? 

Stout has a 1310 home average...

Perhaps the season stats for conference play are the most revealing because they show what the  teams do against the same competition.  Playing different nonconference competition can sometimes create an inequity in the level of play each program faces.   It's not unusual to see the numbers drop once conference play begins.  Just my 2 cents.

Not having seen it in person I have to rely on the picture painted by the radio broadcast and it sounded to me like, in the second half, Stout simply outplayed us on both ends of the floor.   Whether it was the defense or simply an off night (probably some of both) we couldn't shoot to save our souls, particularly in the second half and from the perimeter.  Though we kept them within sight I have to admit that, listening to it, I didn't get the feeling we could pull it out.  We closed the gap but Stout never really relinquished control of the game.   

Badger makes a good point.  To use one chart to show both sides (O and D), I'm posting the scoring margin stats for WIAC games only:

SCORING MARGIN
# Team                         G    OFF   DEF Margin
---------------------------------------------
1.UW-Stout............      10   70.2  61.2   +9.0
2.UW-Stevens Point.... 10   63.6  55.7   +7.9
3.UW-River Falls......     10   59.1  52.5   +6.6
4.UW-Whitewater.......   9   66.8  61.0   +5.8
5.UW-Eau Claire.......    10   56.6  52.3   +4.3
6.UW-Oshkosh..........   10   53.8  51.5   +2.3
7.UW-La Crosse........   10   58.8  63.2   -4.4
8.UW-Platteville......       9   55.0  65.4  -10.4
9.UW-Superior.........    10   52.2  73.7  -21.5