Is 32 teams the right size for the playoffs, and will it stay that way?

[K-Mack]

With an expanded D-3 membership comes expanded playoffs. "The good old days" were rather unfair, when a 10-0 team could be excluded from the playoffs by a vindictive opposing coach.

Story please.

[K-Mack]

  Other factors noted in the "Future of D-III" is that the division is growing so big that  the playoff brackets cannot handle the playoff ratio that is desired.   

What about the creation of a divisional system that allows the movement of teams between divisions, the same sort of system used in the UK?  Instead of basing teams on school size, base them on ability.  For example, the top 3 teams in DIII would move up to DII at the end of the season and vice versa.  You can create 5 divisions, spreading out DII, DIII teams out and shortening the playoffs for each division.  Just a thought.

I know that both UWW and MU could very well move up to DII without a problem!!!

-Ski

Some D-3 schools are larger than D-1 schools, so it's not size. It's an institutional decision if they really want to feed the scholarship money machine. Plus there are many other sports to think of in this decision as well, not just football. Mt. Union in D-2 football, fine. But Mt. Union as a D-2 in other sports - not so good.

Plus, Mt. Union would have to restructure their fundraising and their endowment to support even limited scholarships. They don't pull in a huge amount of unrestricted dollars ($1 million annual fund) and their endowment is only $130 million. While that may seem a lot to some D-3 schools, to compete for students in a highly competitive Ohio market and maintain a modicum of competitiveness in D-2 would require an outlay of funds that they may not have at their disposal now.

UWW is a state school, and has typical state school funding issues I assume. They don't have very robust fundraising nor endowment. So they're at the mercy of the state if they want to change their athletic paradigm.

So it's just not that simple.

Really good post about some of the overlooked reasons.

Another is, in D2, in Ohio ... who would they play? They'd have to join the PSAC or GLIAC or something.

[smedindy]

With an expanded D-3 membership comes expanded playoffs. "The good old days" were rather unfair, when a 10-0 team could be excluded from the playoffs by a vindictive opposing coach.

Story please.

1982 - Wabash 10-0 and left out of the playoffs. The coaches voted for the playoff teams then. From what I heard one of the coaches Wabash played was on the list and thought that Wabash didn't beat Illinois Wesleyan by enough points. Of course, it was sandwiched between Dayton and DPU, so yeah, it was a trap game. Ah, well.

[K-Mack]

With an expanded D-3 membership comes expanded playoffs. "The good old days" were rather unfair, when a 10-0 team could be excluded from the playoffs by a vindictive opposing coach.

Story please.

1982 - Wabash 10-0 and left out of the playoffs. The coaches voted for the playoff teams then. From what I heard one of the coaches Wabash played was on the list and thought that Wabash didn't beat Illinois Wesleyan by enough points. Of course, it was sandwiched between Dayton and DPU, so yeah, it was a trap game. Ah, well.

82? An eight-team field. I'll have to look at the records of the teams who made it in the book I have at home, but this was a weird group with West Georgia and Wagner and Bishop???

http://www.d3football.com/playoffs/1982.htm

[Ralph Turner]

Wow.  Bishop is probably Bishop College, in south Dallas.  Bishop was an HBCU that eventually went bankrupt and closed.  Its campus is now the home of NAIA Paul Quinn College, which gave up football this year.  (Howard Payne played Paul Quinn in 2006.)

I have no idea where to find those archives on the internet.  They are probably on microfiche in the bowels of the Dallas Morning News.

[old ends]

Just in reading the past post 32 is the latest number up from 16.. Seems enough until some mambe bambe's _itch and grind to the NCAA and they either split up Div III and/or add another round and week to it all. Let's hope not.
Nothing is as constant as change...but somethings are better left along. I think this one is.

[K-Mack]

Here's a good place to add playoff discussion:

Yet another well-argued point for the playoffs vs. the BCS. The Washington Post (full disclosure: Where I now work) wrote a story talking to Appalachian State and their AD who used to be at N.C. State asking if the playoff system that works at a sports-happy Appy State could work in I-A.

Division I-AA Shows Argument For Playoffs Isn't All Academic

I'm sure there are several other threads where this would fit.

Georgia Prez giving more love to the I-A playoff idea.

The thought's been raised, in the wake of Ohio State's consecutive title game drubbings, that 3rd week of Nov. until late in the 1st week of Jan. is too long between games. :light bulb:

Ralph, knew about Paul Quinn, but all the Bishop stuff was pretty interesting. +1

[K-Mack]

"This would involve only four schools, and only two into the second week," he said. "To answer concerns about the wear-and-tear on the student-athletes, I would consider returning the regular season to an 11-game schedule."

Whoa, what, and get rid of all that 12th-game money? I thought the Georgia Prez had a shot in hell before I read that.

I make the same point when people say the D3 season last 5 extra weeks ... for two schools. For the vast majority of us, there is little or no change.

[Ralph Turner]

On the Future of D-III message board is the discussion about the Presidential White Paper that is background material for the January 2009 Convention.  I am posting the pdf link for serious fans, alumni and even members of your respective alma mater's board of trustees to review.  The quoted paragraph is from Issue 8.

http://web1.ncaa.org/web_files/DIII_MC_PC/Misc/White_papers/content.pdf

Division III Bylaw 18.01.1 presents the purpose of NCAA Championships: "NCAA
championships are intended to provide national-level competition among the best eligible
student-athletes and teams of member institution." Additionally, Article 2.15 contains the
guiding principle of postseason competition: "The conditions under which postseason
competition occurs shall be controlled to assure that the benefits inherent in such competition
flow fairly to all participants, to prevent unjustified intrusion on the time student-athletes devote
to their academic programs."

Enjoy the "read"!   

[D3MAFAN]

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/10767521/a-primer-new-college-football-playoff

This video upsets me to the fullest, it is hard to fathom that many people fail to realize that "College Football" already has and for years had a playoff and the fact that Division I football is just starting to say the CFB now has a playoff is a slap in the face to the other divisions. I don't know how many of you feel about the subject, but when the "Power 5" conference tells the NCAA that they are considering leaving, I think this move is predicated on the fear that Division I-FBS is actually moving to a legit playoff in the near future with more than 4 teams and that each conference would be represented and that these top schools will eventually lose to these smaller schools in the playoffs and that these high school athletes will eventually see that you don't have to the "Top Schools" to win a national championship. Then schools will have to elaborate on education, facilities, and such.

[wally_wabash]

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/10767521/a-primer-new-college-football-playoff

This video upsets me to the fullest, it is hard to fathom that many people fail to realize that "College Football" already has and for years had a playoff and the fact that Division I football is just starting to say the CFB now has a playoff is a slap in the face to the other divisions. I don't know how many of you feel about the subject, but when the "Power 5" conference tells the NCAA that they are considering leaving, I think this move is predicated on the fear that Division I-FBS is actually moving to a legit playoff in the near future with more than 4 teams and that each conference would be represented and that these top schools will eventually lose to these smaller schools in the playoffs and that these high school athletes will eventually see that you don't have to the "Top Schools" to win a national championship. Then schools will have to elaborate on education, facilities, and such.

I think they are aware that other divisions have playoffs.  ESPN broadcasts parts of all of those tournaments.  But in the broad, national conversation that an outlet like ESPN has to have, "college football" is FBS...because that's where the eyeballs are on their network for 12 hours every fall Saturday.  It's a shorthand and, yes it is a bit dismissive, but I've accepted it as the norm.  I don't need Herbstreit to remind everybody that Division III has a playoff to validate my experience with small college football. 

As for the big 5 schools forming their own association...that we should be afraid of, especially if that association is all-inclusive and not just a football thing.  If those leagues pick up their basketballs and go away, WE lose our national tournament subsidy.  That would be a problem for those of us that have come to love our national championship tournaments at this level.  I think the idea of those leagues leaving has a little to do with escaping the NCAA's ludicrous oversight, maybe a little to do with not wanting to lose in a tournament to Boise St., but mostly about chopping out half of the people that they have to share money with.  Same giant pot of money, half the teams.  That's mostly what it is about. 

[AO]

As for the big 5 schools forming their own association...that we should be afraid of, especially if that association is all-inclusive and not just a football thing.  If those leagues pick up their basketballs and go away, WE lose our national tournament subsidy.  That would be a problem for those of us that have come to love our national championship tournaments at this level.  I think the idea of those leagues leaving has a little to do with escaping the NCAA's ludicrous oversight, maybe a little to do with not wanting to lose in a tournament to Boise St., but mostly about chopping out half of the people that they have to share money with.  Same giant pot of money, half the teams.  That's mostly what it is about. 

I can't see them the big 5 leaving the NCAA.  Their revenues are rising dramatically as a part of the NCAA.   Minnesota has gone from $50 Million in 2005  to $100 Million last year.  There is no way FBS would start a full NCAA sponsored championship.  Bowl games plus the new title game are here to stay.