FOOTBALL GOAT CRITERIA (DISCUSSION)

[Saint of Old]

1. Go to 4 World Cups

2. Win atleast one World Cup

3. Be the Best player on your team

4. Overcome a Big set back (Injury etc)

There have been many ballers, many top ten lists. I wanted to make a criteria that while simple it is also an objective lens through which to analyze potential candidates... Funny enough, I can only find 3 people who can even qualify off the top, but I am interested in hearing more suggestions or even
disagreements.

*Pele
*Maradona
*Ronaldo

[WLCALUM83]

Mexico's C Blanco

Germany:  Lothair Mattheus
                Rudy Voeller
                Jurgen Klinsmann

Netherlands: Johan Cruyff

[Saint of Old]

Mexico's C Blanco

Germany:  Lothair Mattheus
                Rudy Voeller
                Jurgen Klinsmann

Netherlands: Johan Cruyff

Matthaus from Germany comes the closest here. Was a baller for sure but falls short of the objective  criteria.
Went to 3 WC 82/ 86/ 90 (Best Player on team in 90)
Won Ballon D Or in 91

[jknezek]

1. Go to 4 World Cups

2. Win atleast one World Cup

3. Be the Best player on your team

4. Overcome a Big set back (Injury etc)

There have been many ballers, many top ten lists. I wanted to make a criteria that while simple it is also an objective lens through which to analyze potential candidates... Funny enough, I can only find 3 people who can even qualify off the top, but I am interested in hearing more suggestions or even
disagreements.

*Pele
*Maradona
*Ronaldo

I'm not a huge fan of #2 or #4. Winning a World Cup is a team activity. I don't care for Cristiano Ronaldo but he is one of the greatest football players of all time. Had he been born in Spain or Germany or Italy, he would have won a World Cup, I have no doubt. Being born in Portugal, however, makes the 2016 European Championship just as impressive as a German World Cup win.

As for coming back from a major injury, that just leaves too much to chance. Kruyff may have been the greatest of all time, but he suffered one significant injury, a ligament tear early in his career that cost  him 3 months or so. Is he really any less of a great player because he never had a catastrophic injury? I just don't believe that to be true.

Anyway, if it was me I'd revise your criteria a bit, though some of these are obviously geared toward more modern awards.


1) Be the Best player on your club and national team for more than 80% of your career -- start fast, and know when to retire so you don't tarnish your legacy

2) Win multiple Club or International Major Tournaments (World Cup, Champions League, European Championships, CONMEBOL) while the best player on your team -- Peyton Manning in Denver situations don't count, neither does the CONCACAF Gold Cup or the African Cup of Nations.

3) Win a top tier Professional League more than 50% of your prime years -- Spain, Italy, France, Germany, England. Selling leagues like Brazil and Argentina don't count (obviously for a player like Pele, this is way too modern a criteria).

4) Go to 4 World Cups -- fine, but advance out of group play at least 3x, make all Tournament team at least 2x -- big time player, big time moments. Winning is too high a team bar for me.


Greatest Players of all time for me? Not in particular order other than the way they came to mind. I'm sure I'm missing a few and I'm sure some of these guys, especially the older ones, don't fit in my own criteria.
Pele
Maradona
Cruyff
Ronaldo
Messi
Beckenbauer
Baggio
Puskas
Cristiano Ronaldo

[Saint of Old]

1. Go to 4 World Cups

2. Win atleast one World Cup

3. Be the Best player on your team

4. Overcome a Big set back (Injury etc)

There have been many ballers, many top ten lists. I wanted to make a criteria that while simple it is also an objective lens through which to analyze potential candidates... Funny enough, I can only find 3 people who can even qualify off the top, but I am interested in hearing more suggestions or even
disagreements.

*Pele
*Maradona
*Ronaldo

I'm not a huge fan of #2 or #4. Winning a World Cup is a team activity. I don't care for Cristiano Ronaldo but he is one of the greatest football players of all time. Had he been born in Spain or Germany or Italy, he would have won a World Cup, I have no doubt. Being born in Portugal, however, makes the 2016 European Championship just as impressive as a German World Cup win.

As for coming back from a major injury, that just leaves too much to chance. Kruyff may have been the greatest of all time, but he suffered one significant injury, a ligament tear early in his career that cost  him 3 months or so. Is he really any less of a great player because he never had a catastrophic injury? I just don't believe that to be true.

Anyway, if it was me I'd revise your criteria a bit, though some of these are obviously geared toward more modern awards.


1) Be the Best player on your club and national team for more than 80% of your career -- start fast, and know when to retire so you don't tarnish your legacy

2) Win multiple Club or International Major Tournaments (World Cup, Champions League, European Championships, CONMEBOL) while the best player on your team -- Peyton Manning in Denver situations don't count, neither does the CONCACAF Gold Cup or the African Cup of Nations.

3) Win a top tier Professional League more than 50% of your prime years -- Spain, Italy, France, Germany, England. Selling leagues like Brazil and Argentina don't count (obviously for a player like Pele, this is way too modern a criteria).

4) Go to 4 World Cups -- fine, but advance out of group play at least 3x, make all Tournament team at least 2x -- big time player, big time moments. Winning is too high a team bar for me.


Greatest Players of all time for me? Not in particular order other than the way they came to mind. I'm sure I'm missing a few and I'm sure some of these guys, especially the older ones, don't fit in my own criteria.
Pele
Maradona
Cruyff
Ronaldo
Messi
Beckenbauer
Baggio
Puskas
Cristiano Ronaldo

Great Post.
My biggest problem with your argument is Christiano.
He is only the 3rd best Ronaldo (Ronaldo#9 and Ronaldinho aka little Ronaldo were better).

The reason I went with the 4 Criteria is to keep it simple, like I said, the three men I picked (Maradona, Ronaldo, Pele) all get in seamlessly, and no one else.
Overcoming a big obstacle does not have to be an injury, although again all 3 men Maradona (Broken ankle at Barcelona) Ronaldo (Knee issues throughout)and Pele (Massive injury in both 62 and 66 world cups) qualify as well.

The setback to overcome can also be Being (forced) threatned to play and win a WC by the military Government of your country (Pele)
Overcoming a great love of food and struggling to stay in shape that must be overcome (Phenomenon)
Overcoming the temptations (Not the guys from Motown) (Diego).

Again, all 3 men are in a different class... above all else.

[jknezek]

Great Post.
My biggest problem with your argument is Christiano.
He is only the 3rd best Ronaldo (Ronaldo#9 and Ronaldinho aka little Ronaldo were better).

The reason I went with the 4 Criteria is to keep it simple, like I said, the three men I picked (Maradona, Ronaldo, Pele) all get in seamlessly, and no one else.
Overcoming a big obstacle does not have to be an injury, although again all 3 men Maradona (Broken ankle at Barcelona) Ronaldo (Knee issues throughout)and Pele (Massive injury in both 62 and 66 world cups) qualify as well.

The setback to overcome can also be Being (forced) threatned to play and win a WC by the military Government of your country (Pele)
Overcoming a great love of food and struggling to stay in shape that must be overcome (Phenomenon)
Overcoming the temptations (Not the guys from Motown) (Diego).

Again, all 3 men are in a different class... above all else.

I think these are all great points, and obviously I have all 3 of those guys in my group as well. I always struggle with Cristiano Ronaldo. I just don't like him. Sometimes I wonder if that colors my opinion, especially when you read this from my least favorite, but ultimately too lazy to do better, source Wikipedia...

Ronaldo has won five Ballon d'Or awards and four European Golden Shoes, the most by a European player. He has won 32 trophies in his career, including seven league titles, five UEFA Champions Leagues, one UEFA European Championship, and one UEFA Nations League. Ronaldo holds the records for most appearances (183), most goals (140), and assists (42) in the Champions League, most goals in the European Championship (14), most international goals by a male player (115), and most international appearances by a European male (184). He is one of the few players to have made over 1,100 professional career appearances, and has scored over 800 official senior career goals for club and country.

[Saint of Old]

"There are levels to football" Not sure who originally said this, but so very true.
Christiano is no doubt a great player in my mind but not top 10 and he would struggle to get into top 25.
Now that is saying a whole lot, and many will be upset, but can anyone really say Ronaldo is better than Zidanne/Henry? Is he better that Eusabio his countryman, if you do not know the Black Pearl then please do some research. He came closer to winning a WC with Portugal with less help than Christiano ever had. Is Christiano better than the greatest ever #7 to do it, Garrincha.  Not better than Ronaldinho.

Now lets be fair to the man, he is ahead of some very good players. Better than his countryman Luis Figo... Better than Roberto Baggio and just a smudge better than Romario from Brasil.
Now, in my opinion, Christiono does not crack all time top 10 but he is in there perhaps from 10-25, but that is still not bad not bad at all.

[jknezek]

"There are levels to football" Not sure who originally said this, but so very true.
Christiano is no doubt a great player in my mind but not top 10 and he would struggle to get into top 25.
Now that is saying a whole lot, and many will be upset, but can anyone really say Ronaldo is better than Zidanne/Henry? Is he better that Eusabio his countryman, if you do not know the Black Pearl then please do some research. He came closer to winning a WC with Portugal with less help than Christiano ever had. Is Christiano better than the greatest ever #7 to do it, Garrincha.  Not better than Ronaldinho.

Now lets be fair to the man, he is ahead of some very good players. Better than his countryman Luis Figo... Better than Roberto Baggio and just a smudge better than Romario from Brasil.
Now, in my opinion, Christiono does not crack all time top 10 but he is in there perhaps from 10-25, but that is still not bad not bad at all.

Eusebio was real close to making my original list! He just was never someone I saw much tape of. I remember Puskas better and that's why I went that route.

[Saint of Old]

Puskas is sick!
Just think of his patent move...The Puscas, super star.
Has to be top 10.Lots of Puskas/Eusabio on Youtube...

Eusabio owned the 1966  world cup as the best player and destroyed brazil.

[Saint of Old]

There is one man (1 Man) who sent home "as the undeniable and only superstar on his team" who sent home every other World Cup winning country.

Uraguy 1986
Germany 1986
England 1986
Brazil  1990
Italy (in Italy) 1990.

(France/Spain didn't win till after his retirement).

One man who has had an entire world cup stadium (not in his home country) cheer his name and acknowledge him as king.

Diego Armando Maradona

DAM! indeed.

[Falconer]

Bobby Carlton comes to mind, regardless of any specific criteria he might not meet. Surely no comparably talented players have been as near to death as he was.

[Saint of Old]

Bobby Charlton, clearly a baller and World Cup winner while being the stud on his team.

Man United Legend as well.
Also, maybe the only better thing than winning a WC is winning one with our brother (Jack) on the team the way he did.

[WLCALUM83]

Brazil:  Dunga
Poland:  Lato
Uruguay:  Angel Romano
Paraguay:  Jose Luis Chilavert

(Relative "somewhat under the top radar" standouts)

[Saint of Old]

Going old school with Angel Romano... Class player indeed. Earned a star on the Uruguay crest as the best player in 24'  as well.

I love Dunga. Captained Brazin in 1994 the team that finally took it home after 2 dozen years in the wilderness and the Ugliest team Brazil has ever brought to the world cup. I say ugly not as a bad thing, but just a hard nosed team, and Dunga was the perfect player that summed it up.

He was a strange Brazilian, more defensive than attack (Kinda like Ramirez who played for Chelsea or current Fred at ManU).

Brazil captain coming to the WC was Rai... Tall and silky #10 and Brother to maybe the most complete ever Brazilian midfielder Doctor Socrates.
Rai lost his starting role and then the captain's arm band went to Dunga. The rest is history.

[WLCALUM83]

Give your takes on these All-Time USA Men's National Team Players

Landon Donovan
Claudio Reyna
Clint Dempsey
Brian McBride
Tim Howard
Tab Ramos
Kasey Keller
Cobi Jones