MBB: Liberty League

thebear · March 01, 2008, 04:42:26 PM

Final - Clarkson 58 Hamilton 53.

Hell is forming icicles.

Congrats to the Knights for their first NCAA baketball tournament bid.

met_fan · March 01, 2008, 08:10:54 PM

When a 16-loss team wins the automatic bid, that says a lot about the quality of teams in the league

buck1053 · March 01, 2008, 10:47:15 PM

Quote from: met_fan on March 01, 2008, 08:10:54 PM
When a 16-loss team wins the automatic bid, that says a lot about the quality of teams in the league

Well, Clarkson may have finished with 16 losses, but they were 7-7 in the league. Plus they beat the top seed on the No. 1's home floor and the No. 3 seed. They were a combined 1-3 against those two teams during the regular season, the lone win coming at Hamilton. They were 3-9 before they even got into league play, so maybe the Knights were a team that gelled at the right time.

The LL wasn't that strong a league this year, it's true, but maybe Clarkson had more heart than the other three teams in the conference tourney. How else do you explain SLU folding in the first round game, and Hamilton barely slipping past Vassar only to lose to Clarkson.

Yeah, I know, Vassar was much improved this year, but their 9-2 non-conference record was built on smoke and mirrors. St. Law was 5-7 non-conference and Hamilton had a weak 8-4 non-conference record.

met_fan · March 02, 2008, 12:51:52 AM

Quote from: buck1053 on March 01, 2008, 10:47:15 PM
Quote from: met_fan on March 01, 2008, 08:10:54 PM
When a 16-loss team wins the automatic bid, that says a lot about the quality of teams in the league

Well, Clarkson may have finished with 16 losses, but they were 7-7 in the league. Plus they beat the top seed on the No. 1's home floor and the No. 3 seed. They were a combined 1-3 against those two teams during the regular season, the lone win coming at Hamilton. They were 3-9 before they even got into league play, so maybe the Knights were a team that gelled at the right time.

The LL wasn't that strong a league this year, it's true, but maybe Clarkson had more heart than the other three teams in the conference tourney. How else do you explain SLU folding in the first round game, and Hamilton barely slipping past Vassar only to lose to Clarkson.

Yeah, I know, Vassar was much improved this year, but their 9-2 non-conference record was built on smoke and mirrors. St. Law was 5-7 non-conference and Hamilton had a weak 8-4 non-conference record.

You're making my case for me. All I was saying is that the league isn't much good this year. You say 7-7 as if that's a good record. Clarkson may be hot, but that shouldn't be enough to get past a legitimate #1 seed.

with age comes? · March 02, 2008, 01:23:12 AM

Time for my $.02. SLU had head to head wins over B-port, Oswego, & e-8 league title holder Ithaca & Bates. Hamilton beat B-port, Williams, (and the hot finisher in the e-8 Utica). Non playoff team Hobart beat St john Fisher a team that lost in the championship game of the e-8 by one point. Call the liberty league weak if you like. Clarkson had multiple game injuries to 5 of its top eight players. The full team squad was 9-4. I prefer to think that the liberty league is far more balanced than its given credit for. On the last the week of the season 6 out of 8 teams had legitimate shots at the playoffs and Union was one of the hottest teams of the league for the second half but started out a woeful 0-7, but beat playoff teams SLU, Clarkson & Hamilton in the 2nd half. I didn't see that type of parity from the Alfred's , Hartwicks, Elmira's, or Fredonia's, Buff State's, or SUNYIT's. I've always said that the SUNYAC is the toughest conference at the top with Platts, Oswego, B-port, Cortland, & Geneseo but top to bottom there are more breather games in both the e-8 and the SUNYAC than there are in the liberty league. By the way Clarkson's at full strength.

magicman · March 02, 2008, 03:47:45 AM

I'm inclined to agree with the man who just added his $.02. with age comes has probably seen more games involving the LL teams than most of the other posters. His earlier remarks about Clarkson (and I'm talking about weeks ago not a few days) and other teams in the conference have proven his analysis to be right on the money. Any team no matter who they are is going to struggle when 60% of your team is missing. Now that they are healthy they're finally making some noise. Good for them.

met_fan · March 02, 2008, 09:36:57 AM

Quote from: with age comes? on March 02, 2008, 01:23:12 AM
Time for my $.02. SLU had head to head wins over B-port, Oswego, & e-8 league title holder Ithaca & Bates. Hamilton beat B-port, Williams, (and the hot finisher in the e-8 Utica). Non playoff team Hobart beat St john Fisher a team that lost in the championship game of the e-8 by one point. Call the liberty league weak if you like. Clarkson had multiple game injuries to 5 of its top eight players. The full team squad was 9-4. I prefer to think that the liberty league is far more balanced than its given credit for. On the last the week of the season 6 out of 8 teams had legitimate shots at the playoffs and Union was one of the hottest teams of the league for the second half but started out a woeful 0-7, but beat playoff teams SLU, Clarkson & Hamilton in the 2nd half. I didn't see that type of parity from the Alfred's , Hartwicks, Elmira's, or Fredonia's, Buff State's, or SUNYIT's. I've always said that the SUNYAC is the toughest conference at the top with Platts, Oswego, B-port, Cortland, & Geneseo but top to bottom there are more breather games in both the e-8 and the SUNYAC than there are in the liberty league. By the way Clarkson's at full strength.

Did any LL team beat an NCAA team all year?

thebear · March 02, 2008, 11:04:34 AM

LL has at least 7 wins against NCAA teams - the 7 conference losses that Clarkson had.

Will look at the LL schedule once the bids come out. Some possibilities e.g. Hamilton def Williams.
Too hard to figure until the field is settled.

met_fan · March 02, 2008, 11:19:31 AM

Quote from: thebear on March 02, 2008, 11:04:34 AM
LL has at least 7 wins against NCAA teams - the 7 conference losses that Clarkson had.

Will look at the LL schedule once the bids come out. Some possibilities e.g. Hamilton def Williams.
Too hard to figure until the field is settled.

In league games don't count, I'm sorry......and Williams finished in a tie for sixth place in their league. I'm a fan of the LL - I just don't see the quality there this year.

FLYZ5 · March 02, 2008, 07:21:38 PM

Congratulations and best of luck to Clarkson U. and Coach Stockwell. He definitely deserved COY honors!! Especially after being picked to finish last by some pundits. According to with age comes? Coach Stockwell had 5 of his top 8 players miss multiple games due to injury. No POY, no ROY, no 1st team picks, no one player carrying the team on his back and no "absolute transfer studs". Just the concepts of honest hard work, team chemistry, control and patience. Looks like they did "right the ship" and played to their potential.
Even though I agree with met fan regarding the lack of quality and strength in the Liberty League this year, Clarkson seems like the real deal!!

Cards7580 · March 02, 2008, 08:06:12 PM

"....When a 16-loss team wins the automatic bid, that says a lot about the quality of teams in the league..."

Back when Plattsburgh went all the way to the final four (1975-76 season) they had about that many losses during the regular season, but were 9-1 in their SUNYAC conference. The one loss was to Oswego in Oswego with Mike Deane substitute coaching for Norm Law. I think they lost by 1 point or somewhere in the single digit neighborhood.

The beat Potsdam at home to win the SUNYAC title in the last conference regular season game. Brockport was coming off an NCAA final four appearance, Potsdam was just beginning to become a national power, and Oneonta State was an extremely good team also. (1976-77 season Oneonta was 2nd in Division III in the NCAA). So it all depends on when a team gets hot, and IF their league has a season tournament to determine who goes, well thats the way it goes. Clarkson is not as bad as their record indicates. Many of the Plattsburgh players were not shocked when told of Clarkson's win on Saturday.

thebear · March 02, 2008, 08:18:15 PM

Actually 76-77 was Potsdam's worst year under Jerry Welsh. I think they were 10-16 or something like that. They had some key graduation losses, then two starters were hurt in the early season and lost for the year.

They still only lost by a point, and that was the only game Jerry Welsh ever lost to Plattsburgh from 1970 - 1991. - You can look it up.

Bears had been to two NCAA College Division (D-II & III) tourneys in 72-73 & 73-74, then Deane and Bence graduated to dominate the PBA for a number of years.

Potsdam beat #1 ranked Hamilton to win the ECAC's in '77-78, and then began their run of 11 straight NCAA tournaments in 78-79.

P.S. Mike Deane's team just set a school record for wins at Wagner with 22. They have the best record of any D-I school in the NY/NJ/Ct Metro area.

met_fan · March 02, 2008, 09:37:11 PM

Quote from: Cards7580 on March 02, 2008, 08:06:12 PM
"....When a 16-loss team wins the automatic bid, that says a lot about the quality of teams in the league..."

Back when Plattsburgh went all the way to the final four (1975-76 season) they had about that many losses during the regular season, but were 9-1 in their SUNYAC conference. The one loss was to Oswego in Oswego with Mike Deane substitute coaching for Norm Law. I think they lost by 1 point or somewhere in the single digit neighborhood.

The beat Potsdam at home to win the SUNYAC title in the last conference regular season game. Brockport was coming off an NCAA final four appearance, Potsdam was just beginning to become a national power, and Oneonta State was an extremely good team also. (1976-77 season Oneonta was 2nd in Division III in the NCAA). So it all depends on when a team gets hot, and IF their league has a season tournament to determine who goes, well thats the way it goes. Clarkson is not as bad as their record indicates. Many of the Plattsburgh players were not shocked when told of Clarkson's win on Saturday.

Clarkson may very well be a good team, but it still does not change my overall opinion of the LL this year. In fact, outside of Plattsburgh and Rochester, there are a lot of pretty comparable teams all over NY this year, but not many that are capable of making much of a run in the NCAAs.

OlBallCoach · March 03, 2008, 09:39:54 AM

Congrats to Clarkson

Although it's true that they weren't the top team of the LL going into the tourny, one thing for certain they were was the best defensive team in the LL throughout this season.

They held their play true to form, relying on their aggressive defensive style to get the job done, and thus were rewarded with two hard earned victories and a NCAA Tourny Birth.

airball55 · March 03, 2008, 02:50:30 PM

Bear, great comeback with the 7 losses to Clarkson. Keep all that Sunyac stuff out of here baby. Just kidding. Quick refresher in St. Lawrence basketball history. I remember when Coach Davis was running the show in the late 80's early 90's and the Golden Knights were holding their own against the Larries. Coach Anderson did okay when he was at Clarkson. The pre Paulsen/Downs days weren't all that special. If there was an online course in Potsdam and Plattsburgh hoops I would recommend you and the Cards fellow to teach it. You guys are amazing with that stuff.