MBB: Liberty League

[John McGraw]

St. John Fisher did actually beat Hamilton that year. I was at the game broadcasting for D3hoops.com. I think its a safe bet that these two teams, as long as they win their respective tournaments, will hook up in the second round or in the Sweet Sixteen.

It would be a pretty decent match up this year between Fisher's speed and three point shooting ability against Hamilton's frenetic pacing and height. Either Varsity Gym or the Field House would rock for that one. Fisher being higher in the regional rankings, if they meet in the second round, would host. But, having Cortland in the mix, Hamilton might be sent to Cortland, or could somehow manage to host a sub-regional of their own.

[unionalum]

You guys are getting way ahaead of yourselves... haven't we learned not to count out the Dutchmen???

[rjcarter8]

I think Hamilton has to win the LL tourney to make the NCAA tourney, while Fisher (however unlikely it is) could lose the E8 tourney and still get a bid. Fisher actually has a better chance of winning their tournament than Hamilton.

Both teams are the favorite, and both should win their tournaments based on talent, but how many times have we seen more talented teams lose when it comes to conference tourney time, for example, Hamilton last year.

Seeing that this is the LL board I refrain from my E8 tourney predictions here. For the LL tournament, I think Hamilton will outlast RPI, while I'll go with Union over St. Lawrence. Both teams won both of their contests last weekend, but foor Union it was a matter of winning both to make the conference tournament. St. Lawrence had to not lose both to stay in.

I also think it is tough for one team to beat another three times in one season, and that is the ultimate reason I think Union will edge Hamilton in the conference championship.

[thumbsup]

Having watched all four teams that are in the liberty league tourn., I will go with Hamilton big over RPI.  Too much pressure for RPI's guards to handle.  I think the other game will be fun to watch and be very close.  I have St. Lawrence in a tight one over Union.  This could be an unofficial passing of the torch from Union to St Lawrence as being the other team along with Hamilton that will vie for the conference bid each season.  I will take Hamilton by 12 or so over St. Lawrence in the final.  Not really going out  on a limb here, but with all the Union fans picking their team, it almost feels like Hamilton is the underdog here.  Should be fun to watch.

[bed]

i stand corrected.  forgot about the Hamilton loss to Fisher in 04.  My apologies. 

if you look historically (say the last 5 times they've played each other)........many of which were in the postseason...........Fisher hasn't won (as far as i remember EXCEPT for that 04 win.

the point is:  hamilton usually plays in a tougher conference.  this season the LL is down, but in the past Hamilton has not had as good a regular season record and often played at Fisher b/c Fisher had a superb record (sometimes with just a couple of losses for the year) b/c they played in a very, very weak conference.  Hamilton would often come in as the underdog and beat them on their court or at U of R b/c Hamilton was better in big games.   Fisher always played well, but was ultimately worn down.

This season, Hamilton would beat Fisher.  However, I agree, I dont think Hamilton is a lock to get by Union.  I think Union is a tough out in the LL tourney.

[Red1]

Hamilton has rarely had trouble with Fisher.  When the Nescac was first allowed to go the NCAAs it became a yearly event for Hamilton to travel to Rochester to take on St. John Fisher in the second round, and they'd routinely beat Fisher badly.

Even with the LL down, I doubt that Hamilton, or anyone else in LL has played as weak a schedule as Fisher.  They routinely play 1 or 2 decent teams, get 1 or 2 losses, and at 22-2 or 23-1 get a first round bye.  Then they prove how weak their schedule really is when they get blasted at home by Hamilton or Rochester in the second or third round.  Beating up on a weak subset of teams in an already weak region will get you into the big dance with a good record, but it won't prepare you to play the rest of the teams that make it in who have played an array of strong and weak teams to learn about different styles and skill levels.

Hamilton will likely face Union in the finals of the LL tournament, and they should be able to pull off the victory.  If Union upsets the Continentals Hamilton would still be on the bubble and have a shot at an at large bid, but they're far from a lock.

[bamm]

The history lesson is great, but the fact is, if anything, the LL is worse than a relatively weak E8 this year.  On top of that, Fisher has played a tougher schedule than Hamilton (Baldwin-Wallace, Randolph Macon, Rochester, Utica twice).  Hamilton played Utica, and they lost (yeah, without a couple players).

Who, exactly, has Hamilton beaten to convince anyone they are a good squad?  They played a relatively average Williams team, at home, and lost.  They lost at home to Hobart.  And they got beat by an average St. Lawrence squad.

What I'm trying to tell you is this:

Even with the LL down, I doubt that Hamilton, or anyone else in LL has played as weak a schedule as Fisher.

Is crap.

[bamm]

One more thing to add.  From what I can tell, the Empire 8 is 9-3 against the Liberty League this year.

Once again proving that this:

Even with the LL down, I doubt that Hamilton, or anyone else in LL has played as weak a schedule as Fisher.

Is complete crap.

[shooters]

I think Hamilton rolls this weekend and we'll see what happens w/ the NCAA, I think Fisher is subpar at best.

Someone mentioned a Murphy post on here not that long ago and SUNY -IT. That school and that coach deserve each other so i am glad to see him do well. Thats the caliber of program he should be running so hats off to his season.

[bamm]

I don't want to sound like a Fisher nut, which I'm not.  I don't think they are top 15 in the country, which is where they are ranked.  I do think they are the best in the region though, and at home against Hamilton -- which, barring an upset this weekend, any NCAA game would be -- I would consider them a favorite.

[bed]

Why are you down on Coach Murphy?  In your post, you seem to have some anger towards Murphy......anything you care to share??

His record at Hamilton was exemplary.  He is the 4th winningest coach (he may be 3rd right now) all time in wins in Division III history.

From my dealings with him, he always seemed to be one of the most honest, down to earth people I've encountered.

[shooters]

This is a Liberty League posting area, not one for Murphy or SUNYIT, I believe there is a section for those postings. I have my reasons, many of which I can't post, but I will try and refrain from any further negative comments. I will be at the conference tourney this weekend so I look forward to some good action. I would like to bring my laptop to the games and keep up w/ the postings but I don't want to be the guy in the gym w/ the laptop so I'll just catch up w/ you guys on Monday and see what shakes out. My predictions is Hamilton over RPI, rather big, then I think it will be Downs and SLU in the final and again i'm taking Hamilton over SLU by about 11. Deep down I would like to see Union there playing Hamilton but I gotta go w/ what I know.

[unionalum]

Conference Awards just came out
POY- Schneider

1st Team:
Schneider
Cagianello
Scordato
Welchons
Jones

2nd Team:
Avitable
Feane
Grazioli
Ngobeni
Vonnak
White

rookie:  Vonnak
Coach: Downs

Now time to vent....
Cagianello got robbed... head to head last game of the year, for all each team knew, they had to win to get in.  Schneider did nothing, maybe 13 and 7... Cagianello 28.
Cagianello 11 20 pt games, Schneider 7.... 30 pt games Cag- 7.... Schneider 2
Cag shot better from the field even at 50%
He was #7 in steals

i would even argue Scordato was better.
#6 in scoring, #4 in rebounding, #4 in assists
Most 3 pt field goals,  3rd in assist to turn over ratio

This is a travesty

[gobombers15]

Amen, Bamm. The E8 has had its way with the LL this year. To say Fisher is "subpar at best" and "hasn't played anyone" is to display such ignorance for the facts that I almost think you put no research into either one of those dumb assertions, Red.

Fisher lost to the #2 team in the nation when a) they were taking B-W very lightly in the opener, and b) They were missing the best defensive player in the region (Nick Bennett). I can guarantee you that if Bennett was playing in that game, Fisher scores a few more than 79 points and gives up A LOT less than 88. In the loss at R-MC, Fisher got homed pretty badly. If you go back and look at the foul counts in that game it's absolutely atrocious. Even Fisher's radio guy, who is one of the most objective D3 broadcasters I've heard, was going off about it. Furthermore, R-MC fans even came on the E8 boards to say they shouldn't have won that game and they were very lucky.

The loss to Naz was simply a rivalry game. Throw out the records, etc. Very similar to the Union/RPI football game if you needed that for an LL analogy. As Bamm said, Hamilton is the one team that hasn't beaten anyone. Until you have some ground to stand on, I'd be careful of what I say.

[blockparty]

Union's entire offense revolves around Cagianello coming off of screens.  He's got a great J, but Schneider is a better overall player and athlete.  He does more with less.  A lot of his points come off of offensive rebounds, sometimes his own missed shots.  Take Cagianello off of the Dutchmen and you still have a playoff-caliber team; take Schneider off of RPI and they'd struggle.

How many rebounds did Cagianello average?  How many 20 and 20 games?  How many double doubles?  How many player of the week awards?

Cagianello is tied for Union's scoring record, but that's over four years.  Maybe some of his career stats are better, but the award is player of the YEAR.

It's only a "travesty" because you were pulling for Cagianello from the opening game.  Just man up and admit the better player won.