MBB: Liberty League

[Bartman]

Convincing wins over Ithaca and RIT by Hobart with pretty big crowds this weekend.  Hoping the Statesmen resume getting better than okay and might get noticed. I still think the resume is better than #22 Rochester.

[ITH radio]

Pretty sure UofR will drop out after b2b Ls this weekend. Could see the Statesmen crack the Top 25, as 15 wins is significant, but they didn't receive a single vote in the last poll, so it may take them another week or two. All that matters is they can keep this 9 game W streak alive. The schedule is set up favorably. I could see them go into the final regular game vs. Union 21-3, but they'd need to avoid looking ahead.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Pretty sure UofR will drop out after b2b Ls this weekend. Could see the Statesmen crack the Top 25, as 15 wins is significant, but they didn't receive a single vote in the last poll, so it may take them another week or two. All that matters is they can keep this 9 game W streak alive. The schedule is set up favorably. I could see them go into the final regular game vs. Union 21-3, but they'd need to avoid looking ahead.

The 15-win plateau isn't as great this year as in most years... because a LOT of teams are at that plateau right now... a lot of historically good programs have picked up losses in competitive conferences and lot of programs like Hobart are having better-than-expected/average seasons. As a result... it is a muddled mess to try and really figure out who are Top 25 teams and who aren't right now.

[Bartman]

Looks like even if Hobart wins out the voters don't see them as top 25 as 10 points and 35th overall probably reflects a less competitive view of LL nationally. I guess we need to win conference, then the LL tournament and a couple of wins in NCAA to get to top 25... Whatever, it is an exciting season and I hope we keep winning......Go Bart...a fun team to watch

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Looks like even if Hobart wins out the voters don't see them as top 25 as 10 points and 35th overall probably reflects a less competitive view of LL nationally. I guess we need to win conference, then the LL tournament and a couple of wins in NCAA to get to top 25... Whatever, it is an exciting season and I hope we keep winning......Go Bart...a fun team to watch

Wait... what? How are you extrapolating what here? Hobart has ten points (35th overall isn't a thing, by the way) and you are figuring if they win out they won't be in the Top 25? Do you also know how every other team in the country will perform between now and Feb. 25?

It isn't a vacuum, Bartman. It isn't plug and play. It isn't anywhere close to that simple.

[gordonmann]

Maybe. The voters cast ballots for Hobart earlier in the year

http://d3hoops.com/top25/men/2017-18/week-1

As Dave notes, Hobart's prospects for returning to the poll depend on whether the Statesmen keep winning and what happens to the teams in front of them. So far this season there are plenty of Top 25 votes up for grabs every week on the men's side.

From a larger perspective, Hobart's problem is that its best wins (Rochester and SJF) are over teams that are basically off the national radar and the three losses, while they came early in the season, are to three unranked teams. Often voters ask themselves the questions, "Who's their best win? What are there losses?" Hobart's in a tough situation because no one in the LL provides that high quality win that grabs voters' attention, especially with Skidmore's struggles.

From that perspective, Hobart needs to keep racking up wins to climb the rankings. But the votes will likely be there for a return if the Statesmen do that.

[Bartman]

Looks like even if Hobart wins out the voters don't see them as top 25 as 10 points and 35th overall probably reflects a less competitive view of LL nationally. I guess we need to win conference, then the LL tournament and a couple of wins in NCAA to get to top 25... Whatever, it is an exciting season and I hope we keep winning......Go Bart...a fun team to watch

Wait... what? How are you extrapolating what here? Hobart has ten points (35th overall isn't a thing, by the way) and you are figuring if they win out they won't be in the Top 25? Do you also know how every other team in the country will perform between now and Feb. 25?

It isn't a vacuum, Bartman. It isn't plug and play. It isn't anywhere close to that simple.

Glad to see my tongue in cheek trolling got some attention. I have an appreciation for the complexity of rating these teams, as  Division 3 is extremely difficult to poll with the limited inter-league play. I am an unapologetic cheerleader for Hobart and the Liberty League in all sports and have fun doing so. So please take my posts in the spirit they are intended. I think the LL has some depth this year as evidenced by the RPI performance against Hobart last night, resulting in a close contest down the stretch, but I do think Hobart is improving and has some great chemistry with a great young coach.  I certainly yield to your broad knowledge of D3 basketball when it comes to the complexity of national rankings, but I will speak up where I think my team/League needs some attention . Go Bart!

[Oline89]

Looks like even if Hobart wins out the voters don't see them as top 25 as 10 points and 35th overall probably reflects a less competitive view of LL nationally. I guess we need to win conference, then the LL tournament and a couple of wins in NCAA to get to top 25... Whatever, it is an exciting season and I hope we keep winning......Go Bart...a fun team to watch

Wait... what? How are you extrapolating what here? Hobart has ten points (35th overall isn't a thing, by the way) and you are figuring if they win out they won't be in the Top 25? Do you also know how every other team in the country will perform between now and Feb. 25?

It isn't a vacuum, Bartman. It isn't plug and play. It isn't anywhere close to that simple.

Glad to see my tongue in cheek trolling got some attention. I have an appreciation for the complexity of rating these teams, as  Division 3 is extremely difficult to poll with the limited inter-league play. I am an unapologetic cheerleader for Hobart and the Liberty League in all sports and have fun doing so. So please take my posts in the spirit they are intended. I think the LL has some depth this year as evidenced by the RPI performance against Hobart last night, resulting in a close contest down the stretch, but I do think Hobart is improving and has some great chemistry with a great young coach.  I certainly yield to your broad knowledge of D3 basketball when it comes to the complexity of national rankings, but I will speak up where I think my team/League needs some attention . Go Bart!

I think one of the complicating factors is that there are far more conferences in basketball (?46) compared to football (?29).  If Hobart was leading the LL in football by 3 games, like the BBall team is, I am sure they would crack the top 25 in football.  Although having two teams from the Centennial Conference (Swarthmore and F&M) seems a little suspect.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Why is the Centennial suspect? Swarthmore showed in the last few years they are for real. The Liberty hasn't really shown much on the national stage in several year. The East Region, in general, hasn't shown much. Skidmore has been the only team to carry the torch and they haven't been able to get out of the first weekend for a variety of reasons. The Mid-Atlantic has been far more competitive. Only thing suspect, in my opinion, is F&M as they haven't shown as much strength. They are in the same category as Hobart for me so far... on the radar, but not on my ballot.

[Pat Coleman]

In last 11 years, the Centennial has gone 27-17 in the NCAA playoffs, while the Liberty League has gone 8-14. 

[Libertatem Foederis]

Liberty League Power Ranks (Week 6)
1. Hobart : (15-3 Overall & 10-1 in League, movement: - ) 2-0 this weekend and on a 9 game winning streak. To be cute, they haven't lost a game in 2018!  Complete dominance of the league, ave. margin of victory is 14.5 in league.  aside for injury I think its safe to say they will be playing the final weekend of LL play.
2. Union : (11-6 Overall & 7-4 in League, movement: +2 ) 2-0 this weekend and on a 4 game winning streak as well as winning 7 of their last 8.  Coach Murph has done a great job with this squad and if I recall didn't think the Dutchman got much love in the Pre-season coaches poll.....picked to finish 8th...
3. Ithaca : (12-6 Overall & 7-4 in League, movement: -1 ) 0-2 this weekend, but a tough 0-2 playing @ Hobart & @ Union.  Dropped to 3rd in my rankings but could easily be a 2B team.  Looking at the remainder of Ithaca's schedule , they have a chance to be in the drivers seat with their last 4 being at home starting 2/9 against: Clarkson, SLU , Bard , Vassar.  I would be surprised if they don't finish out strong.
4. RIT : 8-10 Overall & 6-5 in League, movement : -1 ) 0-2 this weekend on the road, both bad loses by 18 to RPI & 29 to Hobart.  only one more road game left of 7, so as long as they take care of business @ home it should be a strong finish for the Tigers.
5. RPI ; (10-8 Overall & 5-6 in League, movement: +3 ) 2-0 this weekend @ home.  The Engineers have been Yo-Yoing all league play.  next 3 are big tests for them (@ Hobart , Union , Ithaca) .  The Top 3 in my opinion, if they can steal 1 game is a stretch. 
6. Clarkson : (8-10 Overall & 4-7 in League, movement: +3 ) 2-0 this weekend.  they have done well @ home going 4-2 this month.  The bad news they are on the road for 5 of their last 7 & their 0-4 on the road in league play.
7. Vassar : (5-13 Overall & 4-7 in League, movement: -2 ) 0-2 this weekend in the North Country & a tough go of it as a whole on this extended road trip. Have played their last 6 games on the road and have gone 2-4.
8. Skidmore : (9-8 Overall & 5-6 in League, movement: -1 ) 0-2 this weekend, and on a bad 5 game losing streak.  it has been a really bad Jan.  Feb. has to be better!
9. Bard : (6-12 Overall & 4-7 in League, movement : -3 ) 0-2 this weekend and have dropped 3 in a row.  doesn't have an easy Feb. ahead with games against Hobart, Ithaca & Union
10. St. Lawrence : (5-13 Overall & 3-8 in League, movement : - ) 2-0 this weekend!! Good for the Saints this weekend! On the road for the next 4, but some life out of Canton!
A little late with this having it be mid-week, but life happens.  A lot of movement again this past weekend, Should be interesting to see how the southern teams respond.  The only thing I'm confident about is the next 2 weekends should be fun to watch and anything can happen!  Enjoy the games.

[Libertatem Foederis]

I wanted to jump in on this Top 25 Discussion, I'm looking at this from a different perspective, non the less worth considering.  The Top 25 in D3, its a fun thing to do, and by all means you want it to reflect the best teams in country.  This is very very hard to do in my opinion with their being so many teams and those teams stretching the spectrum of talent.  The curve of talent is much longer than D-2 or D-1.  Programs with full-time coaches playing programs with part-time coaches, the refs vary from doing only D-3 games to across the board D-1-2-3 to refs that in some areas of the country and primarily doing High School games and picking up a D-3 game on the weekends.  The spectrum is so broad at the D-3 level it makes making a Top 25 incredibly difficult.  At the same time for D-3 basketball junkies this can be really fun and the debate is a good thing.  I'm of the belief that b/c of this board spectrum the Top 25 can carry no real weight in the process for the tournament which is the ultimate goal & then you see what can happen from there.  Its fun to talk about but doesn't mean anything.  When regional committees gather I would be very surprised if the Top 25 ranking ever gets discussed let alone mentioned.  The at-large bids are not being determined by whether a team was ranked or not ranked.   For those that are disappointed that their team haven't cracked the top 25 yet, i'm confident in saying that it won't effect them making the tournament as an at-large if it comes to that. 


A good case in point is the Top 25 ranking the last week of Feb. before the Tournament started last year.  The Final Four consisted of:   Babson was #3, Williams NR , Whitman #1 , & Augustana NR (had just fallen out of the Top 25) .  Thats a really good Top 25 to have 2 ranked in the top 4 and make it, but b/c the spectrum is so large its a hard thing to do.  Its not the end all be all if they aren't in the Top 25, they can still have a very very successful season.


I hope everyone enjoys Feb.  should be fun to watch across all of D-3.


LF

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I wanted to jump in on this Top 25 Discussion, I'm looking at this from a different perspective, non the less worth considering.  The Top 25 in D3, its a fun thing to do, and by all means you want it to reflect the best teams in country.  This is very very hard to do in my opinion with their being so many teams and those teams stretching the spectrum of talent.  The curve of talent is much longer than D-2 or D-1.  Programs with full-time coaches playing programs with part-time coaches, the refs vary from doing only D-3 games to across the board D-1-2-3 to refs that in some areas of the country and primarily doing High School games and picking up a D-3 game on the weekends.  The spectrum is so broad at the D-3 level it makes making a Top 25 incredibly difficult.  At the same time for D-3 basketball junkies this can be really fun and the debate is a good thing. I'm of the belief that b/c of this board spectrum the Top 25 can carry no real weight in the process for the tournament which is the ultimate goal & then you see what can happen from there.  Its fun to talk about but doesn't mean anything.  When regional committees gather I would be very surprised if the Top 25 ranking ever gets discussed let alone mentioned.  The at-large bids are not being determined by whether a team was ranked or not ranked.   For those that are disappointed that their team haven't cracked the top 25 yet, i'm confident in saying that it won't effect them making the tournament as an at-large if it comes to that. 


A good case in point is the Top 25 ranking the last week of Feb. before the Tournament started last year.  The Final Four consisted of:   Babson was #3, Williams NR , Whitman #1 , & Augustana NR (had just fallen out of the Top 25) .  Thats a really good Top 25 to have 2 ranked in the top 4 and make it, but b/c the spectrum is so large its a hard thing to do.  Its not the end all be all if they aren't in the Top 25, they can still have a very very successful season.


I hope everyone enjoys Feb.  should be fun to watch across all of D-3.


LF

The Top 25 has NOTHING to do with regional rankings or national committee/selections. It doesn't in DIII men's basketball, women's basketball... or ANY NCAA sport. Even D1 it isn't a criteria factor. No NCAA sponsor tournament (where the NCAA hands out a trophy) does Top 25 polls play a role in ... anything.

The regional advistory committees and the national committee have a very specific items in their primary and secondary criteria that they are to follow. That criteria is very specific and also limited to some degree. Top 25 voters have no limitations or criteria to follow specifically.

[Libertatem Foederis]

I wanted to jump in on this Top 25 Discussion, I'm looking at this from a different perspective, non the less worth considering.  The Top 25 in D3, its a fun thing to do, and by all means you want it to reflect the best teams in country.  This is very very hard to do in my opinion with their being so many teams and those teams stretching the spectrum of talent.  The curve of talent is much longer than D-2 or D-1.  Programs with full-time coaches playing programs with part-time coaches, the refs vary from doing only D-3 games to across the board D-1-2-3 to refs that in some areas of the country and primarily doing High School games and picking up a D-3 game on the weekends.  The spectrum is so broad at the D-3 level it makes making a Top 25 incredibly difficult.  At the same time for D-3 basketball junkies this can be really fun and the debate is a good thing. I'm of the belief that b/c of this board spectrum the Top 25 can carry no real weight in the process for the tournament which is the ultimate goal & then you see what can happen from there.  Its fun to talk about but doesn't mean anything.  When regional committees gather I would be very surprised if the Top 25 ranking ever gets discussed let alone mentioned.  The at-large bids are not being determined by whether a team was ranked or not ranked.   For those that are disappointed that their team haven't cracked the top 25 yet, i'm confident in saying that it won't effect them making the tournament as an at-large if it comes to that. 


A good case in point is the Top 25 ranking the last week of Feb. before the Tournament started last year.  The Final Four consisted of:   Babson was #3, Williams NR , Whitman #1 , & Augustana NR (had just fallen out of the Top 25) .  Thats a really good Top 25 to have 2 ranked in the top 4 and make it, but b/c the spectrum is so large its a hard thing to do.  Its not the end all be all if they aren't in the Top 25, they can still have a very very successful season.


I hope everyone enjoys Feb.  should be fun to watch across all of D-3.


LF

The Top 25 has NOTHING to do with regional rankings or national committee/selections. It doesn't in DIII men's basketball, women's basketball... or ANY NCAA sport. Even D1 it isn't a criteria factor. No NCAA sponsor tournament (where the NCAA hands out a trophy) does Top 25 polls play a role in ... anything.

The regional advistory committees and the national committee have a very specific items in their primary and secondary criteria that they are to follow. That criteria is very specific and also limited to some degree. Top 25 voters have no limitations or criteria to follow specifically.

D-mac, thank you for chiming in, I think this is really important for fans to be aware of this. The Top 25 is a fun thing, and I'm sure people at D3hoops work hard to make it as accurate as they can.  When the committees start meeting soon this is how the tournament takes shape.


Feb. will be fun, it always is.


LF

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Just to give everyone a better understanding of the timeline... the regional and national committees have already started meeting.

They conducted mock rankings this week (Wednesday for the national committee; Tuesday for the regional) to be accurate. Next week will be the first official rankings.

We talked to both committee chairs on yesterday's Hoopsville Marathon. You can find when we talked to them and the video broadcast here: www.d3hoops.com/hoopsville/archives/2017-18/marathon

Worth listening to even those who know this stuff from learning it over the years.