MBB: Liberty League

d3d3d3 · December 03, 2019, 11:59:38 AM

First time in a while that there are no LL teams in the Top 25 or RV category. (On the women's side, too.) Conference play starts this weekend:

Friday
Hobart at Skidmore
SLU at RPI
Ithaca at Bard
Clarkson at Union
RIT at Vassar

Saturday
RIT at Skidmore
Clarkson at RPI
SLU at Union
Hobart at Bard
Ithaca at Vassar

nyhoopstalk · December 04, 2019, 08:58:45 AM

I am not sure what to make of the LL this year but Hobart has had the best non-conference portion of the year of every other LL team thus far. Good wins over St. John Fisher, Rochester and Baldwin Wallace make me believe they are fully capable of winning the league this year. Early test at Skidmore will be telling. Skidmore may be better than their record after playing some tough teams to start.

stlawus · December 06, 2019, 08:10:33 PM

Absolutely atrocious first half by SLU against RPI. At least 10 unforced turnovers. Beat a ranked team and then come out playing their absolute worst game of the year thus far. Mirror image of the game at RPI last year.

stlawus · December 06, 2019, 09:04:07 PM

SLU just had their worst performance in at least 10 years. There is absolutely no excuse for a performance like that coming off a win against Oswego. Brick after brick after offensive foul after offensive foul after turnover after turnover. I do not think RPI went more than one possession without scoring the entire 2nd half. Just terrible.

d3d3d3 · December 06, 2019, 10:40:43 PM

Hobart really put the squeeze on Skidmore. On the road, no less.

Hobart 67, Skidmore 43
RPI 91, SLU 54
Ithaca 85, Bard 68
RIT 77, Vassar 73
Union 74, Clarkson 57

stlawus · December 07, 2019, 05:59:17 PM

This SLU team is driving me absolutely nuts. Giving up 16 threes to Union.. Something needs to change. That is now 78 threes allowed through 6 games, good for 13 allowed on average.

d3d3d3 · December 07, 2019, 07:02:24 PM

Union, Hobart, Ithaca and RPI start conference play 2-0

RPI 72, Clarkson 50
Hobart 73, Bard 53
Skidmore 72, RIT 47
Union 97, SLU 84
Ithaca 103, Vassar 80

UfanBill · December 07, 2019, 07:12:37 PM

Quote from: stlawus on December 07, 2019, 05:59:17 PM
This SLU team is driving me absolutely nuts. Giving up 16 threes to Union is absolutely pathetic. Something needs to change. That is now 78 threes allowed through 6 games, good for 13 allowed on average.

I watched the game and what caught my attention was the play of St. Lawrence's #11 Lucas Hicks. He had 29 points and 13 rebounds and seemed to be the best player on the floor. Not really surprising as a couple of years ago Hicks was starring for Shenendehowa high school on a team with former NYS Mr. Basketball Kevin Huerter (Maryland, NBA Atlanta Hawks) as they won a NYS AA Championship. Hicks abruptly left Shen his senior year with an apparent discipline disagreement issue and I hadn't heard his name since. Many times in high school with Huerter getting all the attention, Hicks became the go to guy and seemed to be a D1 prospect to me. St. Lawrence has found a good one in Hicks.

* Note...Lucas Hicks' father is Scott Hicks who played at my Alma mater Vernon-Verona-Sherrill high school, was John Beilein's first recruit at LeMoyne and became head coach at both UAlbany and Loyola,MD.

stlawus · December 07, 2019, 07:35:35 PM

Hicks had offers from West Point and Columbia, as well as an America East school I think. thankfully Downs' connection to his father helped land him.

Union has always been a thorn in SLU's side. They impressed me last year at Burkman. Manley is a very tough guard and if they can keep shooting like that all season they'll content for a LL title. I am just very frustrated watching a SLU team with a lot of potential give up hoards of threes. As I've said before, I'm still reserving judgment until we get the players that are out for a variety of reasons back into the lineup, especially Hoffman.

UfanBill · December 07, 2019, 09:42:18 PM

Quote from: stlawus on December 07, 2019, 07:35:35 PM
Hicks had offers from West Point and Columbia, as well as an America East school I think. thankfully Downs' connection to his father helped land him.

Union has always been a thorn in SLU's side. They impressed me last year at Burkman. Manley is a very tough guard and if they can keep shooting like that all season they'll content for a LL title. I am just very frustrated watching a SLU team with a lot of potential give up hoards of threes. As I've said before, I'm still reserving judgment until we get the players that are out for a variety of reasons back into the lineup, especially Hoffman.

Speaking of players out. Union starting guard Mike Concannon did not play this weekend. I'm not sure if it was injury related. That gave Mike Manley opportunity and he certainly stepped up with by far his best career game. I hope everyone is healthy when the Dutchmen take the North country trip in February. The LL is unpredictable as usual and seems wide open.

Union has a very balanced attack. They've played 4 games, won them all, and have had 4 different players lead the team in scoring.

ucaafan · December 07, 2019, 10:35:17 PM

Concannon out with what I believe is a high ankle sprain. Union does look pretty deep this year with a young roster.

jmcozenlaw · December 08, 2019, 06:10:25 PM

Hey Caz......................that not even 6'0", 150 pounder put up back-to-back 25 point games this weekend. Yikes!!! Do I smell a possible first team Liberty League announcement come March?

stlawus · December 10, 2019, 09:13:18 PM

I am simply at a loss for words with regards to this SLU team. 15 threes allowed against Clarkson, which makes two straight games allowing 15 threes. They have allowed 93 threes in 7 games, which averages out to 13 a game. Downs apparently thinks this kind of shooting is unsustainable, so he'll continue to play zone while the team sets an NCAA record for threes allowed in a season. The season is already practically a wash.

d3d3d3 · December 10, 2019, 09:51:46 PM

Rochester 68, Ithaca 63
Hobart 75, Union 53
Clarkson 81, SLU 78

Rochester scored the last 10 points of that game
Hobart continues to play great defense
SLU yielding 89 ppg

RalphyReinbeck · December 10, 2019, 09:55:51 PM

Hi stlawus. I think you're dwelling on the 3s this season, and the zone defense isn't the only story for the Saints. Yes, they've given up a lot of 3s. But look at tonight's box score: SLU turned the ball over 20 times to Clarkson's 7. That's 13 extra possessions in a three-point game! (And 12 total since SLU had one more OREB than Clarkson.) Through 7 games, the biggest problems for SLU are their turnovers, their negative OREB margin, and their FT shooting. The truth is even after tonight, the Saints shoot it at a better clip than their opponents, both from 2FG and 3FG (and thus defend at a better rate, too). But they've taken *way* fewer total shots because they're getting out-rebounded--those early injuries hurt--and they're turning the ball over. Between OREBs and TOs, they've given their opponents 76 (!) extra possessions through seven games. They've shot worse from the FT line, too. Against Plattsburgh, they missed 9 FTs and lost by 5. Ouch.

Not sure what the reasons are, but after two months of practice, the Saints' staff has chosen zone for a reason. Isn't it possible they'd have a harder time matching up? I do think the 3 has become so integral to the game that most teams can knock down a bunch on any given night; in fact tonight, if Clarkson had made 13, the Saints would have won. But would 13 be an acceptable number? You claim that an average of 13 is too high. The problem isn't only the 3s but rather the extra possessions that lead to the 3s.

Back in 2016-2017, when the Saints won 20 games, six of those wins came in games where they gave up 10 or more 3s to the opponent. Across those six games, they committed 15 fewer turnovers while surrendering 12 extra offensive rebounds. They won all six games with only three extra possessions. This season, through seven games, they've allowed 76 extra possessions and lost six of those games. Sounds about right. And to be honest, I don't remember if that group a few years back played mostly zone or man. But they were solid four-year players who took care of the ball on offense and could probably defend well in either system.

I think we're seeing a young team trying to find its way. Every single minute of the season has been played by FR, SO, or JR players. They've been in six of seven games, and after the Oswego win, there was no doubt these guys can both play well and grind with good teams. Maybe they don't need to do it differently; maybe they just need to do it better. We'll see.

Go Saints!