MBB: Liberty League

[stlawus]

Looks like RPI's solid weekend performance earned them a spot in the regional rankings over Brockport. Assumed Ithaca would be in and they are.   This is all academic, however, as there won't be a pool C from the league barring extreme circumstances at play over the next few weeks.

[UfanBill]

Looks like RPI's solid weekend performance earned them a spot in the regional rankings over Brockport. Assumed Ithaca would be in and they are.   This is all academic, however, as there won't be a pool C from the league barring extreme circumstances at play over the next few weeks.

OK but...Could the NCAA be searching for a way to keep a LL team relevant for a Pool C? Your comment about RPI superseding Brockport for a spot on the initial Regional Rankings sparked me to check just how the rest of Region 3 shakes out; notably the SUNYAC. Curiously Cortland is RR'ed while Brockport is not, even though the Golden Eagles spanked Cortland in their most recent matchup by 24 and also hold the only SUNYAC win over Oswego St. It seems Brockport is getting no respect while RPI is still riding the wave of their 2022 finish? While I would love to see the LL get a Pool C, ranking of all D3 teams is highly subjective. Regional ranking are sure to change in the coming weeks as always but I'll be watching this closely. Thanks stlawus.

[stlawus]

Brockport has a sub .500 SOS and Cortland's is about 40 points higher.   While the rankings are alphabetical I would bet RPI is the last ranked team in the region which is still far away from a pool C spot.  RPI is likely in due to SOS as well, and while it isn't that high it's still above .500.

[UfanBill]

Brockport has a sub .500 SOS and Cortland's is about 40 points higher.   While the rankings are alphabetical I would bet RPI is the last ranked team in the region which is still far away from a pool C spot.  RPI is likely in due to SOS as well, and while it isn't that high it's still above .500.

Ah the old SOS ...Strength of Schedule is my least favorite way to compare teams. Interestingly the SOS link on D3hoops.com (though unofficial and anothers opinion) shows Brockport(5th) ranked ahead of Cortland(6th) and RPI (9th) I find this more accurate...http://tomaroonandgold.blogspot.com/p/division-iii-mens-regional-rankings.html ... Overall I hate that the NCAA committees often give more weight to statistics than the "eye test" or sometimes even head to head. Fortunately conferences have tournaments that usually sort things out.

[stlawus]

No arguments from me.  I've long criticized the over reliance of SOS across all sports.  It's contradictory to the philosophy of division III.  They say they want to encourage in-region competition but at the same time say that you need a strong schedule which means teams with more money and resources are at an advantage since they can more easily schedule games against strong teams in different regions.  So which is it?   "But we need criteria to select at large bids!"  No one said there shouldn't be criteria, but be honest about the division III philosophy if you're going to use division I models.  Can't have it both ways.

[thebear]

Ah the old SOS ...Strength of Schedule is my least favorite way to compare teams.

And if you dig deeply into the strength of schedule metric, you find that there is a lot of randomness built in. 

Coaches and AD's can control who they schedule - subject to budgets, geography, and a little thing called academics (schools want to play schools deemed to be of "similar" academic quality, hence the UAA/NESCAC challenge). 

The coaches can't control how their opponents perform during the season, and they can't control how their opponents "opponents" perform during the season.  So basically SOS puts 75% of the weight on how your opponents and your opponents "opponents" did and only 25% on how well you played against your schedule.

In the case of Rochester and Oswego, they have non-conference SOS's [according to Snyder] Oswego - .707, Rochester - .612.  Against common opponents, Oswego is 3-1 (played Geneseo 2x), Rochester is 2-1.  Oswego's average margin in their 4 games is 18 points, Rochester's is +7 against the same teams.  Problem - sample size is small. 

One solution is for Rochester to invite Oswego to play in their tournament, This year their SUNY sacrificial lamb was Fredonia who is 2-19. 

The other interesting factoid in all of this is that Oswego's coach, Jason Leone, is a Rochester grad.

[Caz Bombers]

plus there's the fact that UofR only plays 14 league games so they have 11 OOC games to craft a good schedule. E8/LL/SUNYAC have 18 league games (the other region 3 conference, the Skyline, plays 16 conference games, but most of those teams stink anyway, and the halfway decent squads use up their OOC dates on local CUNYAC/CSAC teams in significant part).

[Bartman]

While it is exciting to get an NCAA berth, I think the Liberty League has some nice parity among the member teams resulting in some great competition. Realistically our basketball teams will likely meet the "next level" in D3 and , like our football teams, will ultimately hit the superior competition wall after , hopefully, a couple of tournament wins. For me, it's all about winning the Liberty League tournament in basketball or the regular season in football. Anything beyond that, like Hobart basketball's little run before the pandemic in 2020 , or Ithaca's run in football last year, is icing on the cake.

[UfanBill]

Speaking of Rochester and their dual league status...How is it they get to pick and choose which sport they're going to play in which league? They are charter members of the Liberty League where they play major sports football, baseball and track but not soccer, lacrosse or basketball. That's on the men's side. In women's sports their lacrosse teams does play in the LL along with softball, field hockey and women's track and field. Always seemed odd

Then there's this...
The NCAA recently revamped their Region designations to more clearly reflect geographical and league affiliations. (I think) BUT...the league Rochester plays in for basketball, the UAA, has teams in multiple regions. Doesn't the NCAA use Regional Rankings, specifically the top 8 in each region, to draw from for Pool C selection? In looking at the basketball members of the UAA incredibly all eight of the UAA teams rank in the top 8 of their respective regions according to this week's Regional Rankings linked to D3hoops.com...http://tomaroonandgold.blogspot.com/p/division-iii-mens-regional-rankings.html ...Brandeis is #6 in Region 2. Rochester #1 in Region 3. NYU #4 in 4. Emory #4 in 6. Case Western and Carnegie Mellon #3,4 in 7 and Washington U and Chicago #1 and #8 in Region 8! Does this mean if all these rankings hold up the UAA will have multiple teams under Pool C consideration in 6 different regions? Do I have something wrong? Now I know that the UAA has an AQ and that it's likely to only have one Pool C but just getting "on the board" on tournament selection day is a significant achievement right? No wonder Rochester is content playing basketball in the UAA not the LL.

[stlawus]

Buzzer beater for Skidmore tonight results in 4 teams at 9-6 going into tomorrow's slate of games.  RIT got thrashed in 5 straight games and then win easily against Vassar.   Excellent win for SLU tonight, if they made their free throws they would have won easily.   Learned that Trey Syroka isn't actually a senior as I thought he was after transferring with Engelhardt from Niagara last season.  Certainly changes the calculus for things in the league next year with SLU bringing back every starting guard, but as for now let's all just enjoy the ride.  Next 3 games for the top 6 can create a ton of playoff scenarios.

[Bartman]

Looks like SLU has taken over from Hobart as the "hot" LL team since their OT win over the Statesmen. Whichever team has the hot hand in the LL tournament should take it. Home court will be an advantage , but not necessarily with this group.

[Caz Bombers]

St. Lawrence beats Ithaca in OT. That's enough outta you Saints, please chill out before the playoffs, thanks in advance.

[Bartman]

St. Lawrence beats Ithaca in OT. That's enough outta you Saints, please chill out before the playoffs, thanks in advance.

SLU is a streak breaker these days. And they seem to like OT. Ithaca needs to be careful with Vassar next weekend, but the Bombers are looking good despite the loss to SLU tonight. However the loss tonight probably hurt the LL chances to get a second team in, assuming someone other than IC wins the tournament.

[stlawus]

Playoff atmosphere at Burkman today.  Seniors rose to the occasion on senior day.  Miles Davis averages like 2 points a game and hit clutch shot after clutch shot in the 2nd half, and had the game clinching rebound in overtime. Big time 3 from Will Engelhardt at the end of OT to win the game as well.  Best game I've seen at Burkman in years given the stakes.    Ithaca's coach also complains about literally every single call.  That gets old really fast.

Watch out for Skidmore.  They've won 2 crucial games in a row and get 2 more games at home.  SLU has to travel to Saratoga next week, I can easily see the Thoroughbreds being the next team to get hot. 

[Bartman]

Playoff atmosphere at Burkman today.  Seniors rose to the occasion on senior day.  Miles Davis averages like 2 points a game and hit clutch shot after clutch shot in the 2nd half, and had the game clinching rebound in overtime. Big time 3 from Will Engelhardt at the end of OT to win the game as well.  Best game I've seen at Burkman in years given the stakes.    Ithaca's coach also complains about literally every single call.  That gets old really fast.

Watch out for Skidmore.  They've won 2 crucial games in a row and get 2 more games at home.  SLU has to travel to Saratoga next week, I can easily see the Thoroughbreds being the next team to get hot.

Agree ......Methinks he doth protest too much